Bolas's Swamp Thing

[ahg113]

Hey folks,

So first off, I know this is bad, but the brewing bug, this would finally give me the excuse/reason I've needed to invest $200 into a playset of Bitterblossom's that I should've bought back in 2014 when they were $20 a pop.

The deck is a pile, and it only really works with the Citadel is in play. Situation is very glass cannon without the speed of Belcher. I've resorted to playing some bad cards, hoping against hope. Turn 5 seems to be the, I win turn, but lasting that long unmolested is unlikely. The first spin of this was Cheerios based, and it was lackluster. So I opted for this attempting to add discard.


3 Bolas's Citadel
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Tendrils of Agony
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Land Grant
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Beacon of Creation


Sadistic Sacrament can be cut, I just found it cute and disruptive, with so many dark rits and etc., could be kicked reasonably, a don't-lose-con. The Overgrown Tombs are a budget concession, not buying Bayous (too many watches to obtain.) Tendrils is the best life-gain and actual win-con in the deck to play off of Citadel's engine. Beacon and Blossom are token generators to fuel the Citadel, and chump blockers to survive. Mirri's Guile should be SDT, but too many people were butt hurt and one can't solve Miracles adequately otherwise.

Just a jumping off point if there are any other mad scientist out there. I want to make this in paper, right now just gold fishing on cockatrice.

Cheers

[pettdan]

I haven't started fidgeting with it but also thought a brief moment about the veteran + culling the weak synergy in a citadel list. You may be able to find good ideas in this thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27208-Veteran-Explorer-Doomsday

[mistercakes]

I'd run a doomsday since you can steal a game if that's on top. I'd also consider xantid swarm since it can keep you safe from interaction and works with culling. (culling on top of deck means combo turn over if you have no guys on board)

[ahg113]

Swapping doomsday for sad.sac. is easy. But will there be a five card win with the rest of the deck? I know doomsday exisit, but have no clue how to make it hyper effective. Would love to include it in the deck though for flavor, and winning.

There's usually a token on in play to use a culling the weak, it can bottle neck, but not often.

[Mr. Safety]

Isn't Dark Petition a reasonable card with this deck because it adds back BBB? I know it costs 5 life with Citadel but you net a Demonic Tutor plus a Dark Ritual for 5 life.

[pettdan]

Swapping doomsday for sad.sac. is easy. But will there be a five card win with the rest of the deck? I know doomsday exisit, but have no clue how to make it hyper effective. Would love to include it in the deck though for flavor, and winning.

There's usually a token on in play to use a culling the weak, it can bottle neck, but not often.

I think the list has 4 Tendrils right, put four of them on top and that should do, assuming you citadelled into the doomsday in the first place. Or, I think 4 tendrils after each other deal 20 by themselves actually.. I have no idea what an optimal build should look like though..

[ronco]

What about an entomb/welder package? There is the new MH goblin that lets you search your deck and bin an artifact. Might be a terrible idea but figure id mention it since it hasn't been talked about yet (in here).

[ahg113]

Yeah, ez answer is obvious, just stack the tendrils on top of each other and that should be game... thx.

I thought about splashing red for the goblin hijinks. I thought against it for eschewing a third color. I think green does just enough to keep it included.

But if there is red draw, plus the red ramp that makes sense i'm all game. Mirri's guile and veteran explorer aren't so special, but the beacon of creation turned the tide, gumming up the board and making the sac effect more tolerable for citadel.

Need a MD before worrying about a SB, but green seemed the better color for that as well.

[mistercakes]

What about an entomb/welder package? There is the new MH goblin that lets you search your deck and bin an artifact. Might be a terrible idea but figure id mention it since it hasn't been talked about yet (in here).

i think the new MH goblin could definitely consider this card as a tutor option. the main issue is that it would have its highest impact vs control, and there are some other cards competing for the slot.

[FTW]

I think the list has 4 Tendrils right, put four of them on top and that should do, assuming you citadelled into the doomsday in the first place. Or, I think 4 tendrils after each other deal 20 by themselves actually.. I have no idea what an optimal build should look like though..

The only risk there is you need to be at 13 life or higher when you see Doomsday on top, otherwise it doesn't work.

Cast Doomsday (-3 -> 10 life).
Resolve Doomsday (lose half -> 5 life)
Cast Tendrils (-4 -> 1 life)
Resolve at least 2 Tendrils copies (gain 4 or more -> 5+ life)
Cast Tendrils #2...

If you're any lower than 13 you won't have enough life left to cast the first Tendrils.

That's not an insignificant requirement considering you have to pay life for other spells before you hit Doomsday. You could mitigate that by having a single cheap lifegain spell in the deck (e.g. 1 Children of Korlis), which you could stack on top of the Doomsday pile. That reduces the minimum life requirement from 13 to 7, allowing Doomsday to win you more games.

Cast Doomsday (-3 -> 4 life)
Resolve Doomsday (lose half -> 2 life)
Cast Children of Korlis (-1 -> 1 life)
Sacrifice Children (gain 6 or more -> 7+ life)
Cast Tendrils (-4...)

[mistercakes]

You could put a 2nd doomsday in the pile.

[FTW]

You could put a 2nd doomsday in the pile.

If the objective is to lose the game, sure.

The problem is that Doomsday eats a lot of life! It costs 3 life to cast (Bolas Citadel). Then it eats half your life on resolution. Then you still need 4 life to cast Tendrils. Adding more Doomsdays = worse.

The cleanest solution is 1cmc lifegain, e.g. Children of Korlis, so you actually have enough life left to cast Tendrils.

Main Doomsday pile, top to bottom:

Children of Korlis
Tendrils of Agony
Tendrils of Agony
Tendrils of Agony
Tendrils of Agony


If you don't want to read my other wall of text or do the math, just trust me this works while Doomsday into Tendrils = BAD.

If you don't have 4 Tendrils left, the first 1-2 can be a cheap filler card like Lotus Petal. Still enough Storm.

You can build other piles to play around hate, e.g. with Cabal Therapy or SB Abrupt Decay.

[mistercakes]

Can't you doomsday, children, doomsday, children, etc.? (with 2 doomsday in deck and 1 children?)

I think it's also infinite damage.

Bolas Citadel

Cast doomsday (at 7 life) go to 4,then half to 2.

Pile can be

children of korlis
Doomsday
Tendrils
X
X

Original doomsday starts new graveyard.

Cast children, go to 1.

Sacrifice it. Gain 6.

Cast new doomsday. Repeat it until storm is high enough, then put tendrils above the doomsday on the pile.

Am I missing something?

[FTW]

Oh you mean Doomsday in addition to Children, not instead of (as an alternate solution to the problem).

Sure, you can loop Doomsday + Children to generate more storm. You should gain enough life off Children to cast Doomsday again.

Seems unnecessary though. A pile with 2 Tendrils wins most games. Your thing works. It's just a solution to a problem the deck shouldn't have, when the bigger constraint is life to resolve ANY Doomsday pile.

[mistercakes]

Dunno why you think it's unnecessary. It's a one card combo off of citadel and it doubles your chances of having it on top.

[FTW]

Dunno why you think it's unnecessary. It's a one card combo off of citadel and it doubled your chances of having it in top.

We're talking past each other. I'm NOT saying the card Doomsday is unnecessary.

Doomsday pile A: (Children, Doomsday, Tendrils, filler, filler)
Doomsday pile B: (Children, 0-1cc, 0-1cc, Tendrils, Tendrils)

I'm saying looping Doomsdays (pile A) is unnecessary when a single pile (pile B) is already enough to win the game. You can do pile A if the opponent happens to be at infinite life, it's just not relevant 99% of the time when 11-15 Tendrils copies are enough.

Pile A solves a problem the deck shouldn't have most of the time (getting enough Tendrils copies), when there are bigger problems to focus on:
-getting Bolas's Citadel into play
-keeping Bolas's Citadel in play
-finding and resolving Doomsday
-being at high enough life for Doomsday to be relevant

Edit: I brought up Children because it addresses a very big problem - having enough life for Doomsday to be relevant. Still, you need to be at 7 or higher when you see Doomsday on top. If you had to cast a lot of cards off Bolas's Citadel to find it, that may not be easy, especially if the opponent turns creatures sideways. Things that might help are other lifegain slots (Aetherflux Reservoir? more Children?) or Personal Tutor to immediately find Doomsday.

[FTW]

Hmm maybe I figured out the point of confusion. Others were talking about needing 4 Tendrils to be lethal, which is BS.

Doomsday -> Children -> 0-1cc card -> 0-1cc card -> Tendrils (5 copies) -> Tendrils (6 copies)

That's 11 Tendrils (22 damage). It's already a 1-card combo for lethal even if Doomsday is the first card you cast that turn. Tendrils #3 puts it over the top. Hitting enough storm is not an issue. Having enough life to go off and finding the cards are the issue.

[mistercakes]

I think a 4 Doomsday build might be pretty good. I've been trying to figure out how to make doomsday work in nicfit for a long time, and I think this could be a great opportunity.


With 4 Doomsday, you can cast bolas, hit a ritual and cast a doomsday from hand as well. This gives you some more outs with winning. I also really like green sun for veteran or dryad arbor with culling. I would recommend a tower in that build.

I'll brew something up later today.

[FTW]

Yeah 4 Doomsdays is good. See Doomsday more often. Cast from hand to save life. (can win at 4 life)

I also think Personal Tutor is strong. It puts Doomsday directly on top (to cast right away) or finds Tendrils. It can also find card draw or discard early game. The main drawback is offset by Bolas casting things from the top anyway.

[mistercakes]

needs some work:


// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Bolas's Citadel

// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Siege Rhino
1 Elvish Visionary
1 The Gitrog Monster

// 10 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
2 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Ancient Tomb

// 1 Planeswalker
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

// 17 Sorcery
4 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach


it's a little clunky, especially when you can cast doomsday, but have to pass the turn.

[FTW]

What about blue cards? If you're trying to win with Doomsday without Bolas (I assume that's when you "pass the turn"), cantrips help a lot.


//Spells: 31
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Personal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Doomsday
3 Tendrils of Agony

//Creatures: 2
2 Children of Korlis

//Artifacts: 10
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Bolas's Citadel

//Lands: 17
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Bayou
3 Swamp


I guess that just looks like a worse version of ANT.

[mistercakes]

I'll give it another go later when I have a chance, but I think less doomsday, more dark petition and maybe more siege rhinonin there.

If I play blue it would be more for Leovold and jace, and less for brainstorm Ponder. :)



// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Bolas's Citadel

// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Siege Rhino

// 9 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains

// 2 Planeswalker
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Karn, the Great Creator

// 16 Sorcery
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Dark Petition
2 Hymn to Tourach

[FTW]

Looks fun.

What do you do with all that Dark Ritual / Culling the Weak mana if you don't have Bolas in hand? You can ramp out Ob Nix, but if you don't get lucky with draws and don't have cantrips or tutors to find them then what do you do? Dark Petition looks like a big upgrade to the first list to give you some value for that mana.

[crazybear]

have anyone consider playing it with Ral, storm conduit, noxious revival, weather the storm and aetherflux reservoir?

I've been trying these at vintage, it was fun:tongue: thinking is it possible to move onto legacy.
pushing the graveyard with brainstorm, ponder, preordain, duress, thoughtseize, hymn, then cabal rituals/ or lotus bloom for the BBB

[crazybear]

only 4 fetch land? with 4 bolas's citadel and 4 green sun's zenith, so if you managed to have bolas's citadel in play, any of these ( 3 bolas's citadel/ 4 green sun's zenith/ lands) on top of your library (that s almost 1/3 of your remain deck), 1/3 chance of your storm count would stop. Another things I noticed: is it possible for you get threshold with cabal ritual at the first few turn? only 4 fetches, cabal therapy would be exile, maybe 1-2 veteran explorer. There isnt enough cantrip to fill the graveyard.


I'll give it another go later when I have a chance, but I think less doomsday, more dark petition and maybe more siege rhinonin there.

If I play blue it would be more for Leovold and jace, and less for brainstorm Ponder. :)



// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Bolas's Citadel

// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Siege Rhino

// 9 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains

// 2 Planeswalker
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Karn, the Great Creator

// 16 Sorcery
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Dark Petition
2 Hymn to Tourach

[crazybear]

just to explore ideas and direction:smile:

not only you can build around to tendrill style, also you could build into artifact theme. Maybe with loads of artifacts like lotus petal, mox opal, mishra's bauble, urza's bauble....etc. Having 15+ artifacts in your graveyard, head for the new card from Modern Horizon: Mirrodin Besieged, looter to win (or target opponent lost the game)

[mistercakes]

It's still just a value list and prob can even cut 2 citadel for 2 more regular nicfit cards. Bahra played with yawgmoth's and maybe it's great here too.

The deck can go in many ways, I was just exploring it with the culling the weak approach. The difficult part in goldfishing was not being able to have the artifact in hand.

In old urza's block, Cathodian was played to hardcast bargain. (turn 1 rit Cathodian, turn 2 tower and cast bargain.

Maybe there's something similar here available.

The deck ideally needs another way to find citadel, it could be the cantrips as mentioned before but the deck would need to be bug nicfit. I haven't spent time with those lists for quite some time now. Could be interesting, but again the cantrip decks that want to combo are just much better than this.

[FTW]

In old urza's block, Cathodian was played to hardcast bargain. (turn 1 rit Cathodian, turn 2 tower and cast bargain.

In Urza's/Masques Standard (I played Bargain then), if the Academy Rector plan failed, you could hardcast bargain easily with a mix of Dark Rituals, Grim Monoliths, and lands like Peat Bog (before Masques you had Sol Lands in Standard too)! There was also Enlightened Tutor or Vampiric Tutor to find Rector or Bargain. The combination of fast mana and tutors is what made it consistent, even without cantrips.

If you want to play this without blue cantrips, I think you need tutors at least. You can't rely on naturally drawing the Citadel or other pieces.

Luckily in black there are cards like Entomb (if you have a way to play it from the graveyard, like Goblin Welder or Trash for Treasure) and Diabolic Intent (if you play a creature-heavy sacrifice-themed build). You could also splash white for Enlightened Tutor.

If you're adding 4 Doomsday and 8 Rituals to the deck and playing less than 20 lands, it's not really Nic Fit anymore, you've already compromised the Nic Fit strategy to accomodate the combo, so you might as well play more combo enablers.

[ahg113]

Took the Mistercake's list (Bolas's Walker Critters) and made a few changes. Primarily, adding in a couple different creatures, and Diabolic Intent.

From my goldfishing, I went from turn 5 kills to turn 3 kills, still, unmolested fantasy land, but it feels a bit better. Waiting till turn 5 felt way too long.

// Legacy - Bolas's Walker Critters

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Bolas's Citadel

// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
1 Viridian Emissary
2 Thragtusk
2 Siege Rhino

// 9 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains

// 2 Planeswalker
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Karn, the Great Creator

// 17 Sorcery
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dark Petition
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Diabolic Intent


Feel like adding a few more creatures, Emissary, Rhino, or Tusk, would make more sense than the planeswalkers, but those guys do so much more work when hitting the field.

If this is going to go blue, the imagination factor drops way down. Plus, it just becomes a much worse version of existing decks with an artifact instead of Ad Nauseam or Past in Flames.

[ahg113]

Add back at least 1 Dryad Arbor. It's a great out with Crop Rotation when a body is needed. Undervalued when cut originally.

[mistercakes]

good find on diabolic intent, this is feeling more like a deck now:


// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Bolas's Citadel

// 10 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Siege Rhino
2 Thragtusk

// 9 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited

// 17 Sorcery
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dark Petition
4 Diabolic Intent


lands are not perfect, and i did cut the hymn. not sure if viridian emissary is necessary. i think some kind of other 2 drop might be better here (but should still remain a GSZ target)

i think ob is strictly better than karn here, so i'd rather run 2. A) he can kill your veteran's mid combo, he draws a card in case your top card is another land, and he can function as a win condition vs control decks (plus kill threats).

edit (i just put the 2nd arbor over the viridian, it's a lot better with GSZ on top of deck)

[Mr. Safety]

Sorry this isn't on topic, I know you're trying to do a Nic Fit hybrid here, but I can't help but think there is a more powerful avenue with white than Children of Korliss. Call me fucking crazy if you want, but wouldn't it be pretty hot to play Enlightened Tutor and Platinum Emperion and Platinum Angel? ETutor gets Citadel and the other pieces. As long as you have 8-9 life both of them allow you to win the same turn. ETutor even conveniently puts the artifacts on top of your library. Not saying it's better than Children of Korliss, but Tainted Sigil is also tutorable with Enlightened Tutor.

EDIT: also Worldly Tutor, another cheap tutor that goes perfectly with Citadel.

[FTW]

Call me fucking crazy if you want, but wouldn't it be pretty hot to play Enlightened Tutor and Platinum Emperion and Platinum Angel?

You're crazy. It would be hot garbage.

Platinum Emperion does not let you pay life. Therefore it means you spent 8 life and now can't cast spells for the rest of the game. Cool.
Platinum Angel does let you pay life, but you still can't pay more life than you have so you can't go below 0. Does that buy you more freedom to cast spells? Not if you spent 7 life to cast it and a card to tutor for it instead of something else.

If you go the ETutor route, the singleton artifact you want to Tutor for is probably Aetherflux Reservoir, which effectively lets you play unlimited spells as long as you can keep lands off the top (that's where cantrips help).

With Worldly Tutor, you could find lifegain creatures (Kitchen Finks, Thragtusk, Children of Korlis) or use Treasure Mage to find Citadel. Kitchen Finks might be really strong here, as sacrifice fodder and a chump blocker.

Worldly Tutor has some advantages over GSZ (instant speed, finds nongreen cards like Children, not dead with Citadel). But GSZ has other advantages (ramp, mana sink for rituals, puts threats into play).

[mistercakes]

E tutor is interesting. Can try it out. Space is tight.

[FTW]

Not saying it's better than Children of Korliss, but Tainted Sigil is also tutorable with Enlightened Tutor.

EDIT: also Worldly Tutor, another cheap tutor that goes perfectly with Citadel.

It depends what your goal is. For a Doomsday pile, Children is miles better than Tainted Sigil because the lower CMC reduces the life threshold you need to be able to win with Doomsday. Tainted Sigil pushes that life requirement unnecessarily higher. Doomsday is the main reason to play Children.

For incidental lifegain, without Doomsday combo, you could ETutor into Tainted Sigil or you could Worldly Tutor into Children. This build seems to care about creatures more than artifacts.

[Mr. Safety]

I was thinking that Emperion/Angel solves that problem by being both a creature and an artifact. I now see (duh, RTFC) that you have to pay life to activate Citadel. Emperion is a literal non-bo with the card. Angel means you won't lose even at 0 life, but you have to have 7 life to spend to get there and then you don't have life to spend to get the free spells. Sorry for the uninformed comment.:rolleyes:

I still think Tainted Sigil has some potential as a 5th Children, especially if it can be tutored.

The real synergy I wanted to mention was the Tutor cycle that puts a combo piece on top of your library, right where you want it for Citadel. Both cost only 1 mana, both do what you want. Doomsday does it all in one shot but has it's own drawbacks to work around.

[FTW]

Sorry for the uninformed comment.:rolleyes:

I still think Tainted Sigil has some potential as a 5th Children, especially if it can be tutored.

The real synergy I wanted to mention was the Tutor cycle that puts a combo piece on top of your library, right where you want it for Citadel. Both cost only 1 mana, both do what you want. Doomsday does it all in one shot but has it's own drawbacks to work around.

No offense intended, but you did say to call you crazy :p.

Yeah that tutor cycle is very powerful with Citadel. I've suggested Personal Tutor (for Doomsday, Tendrils, etc) and Enlightened Tutor a couple times now. Putting it to the top of your deck to immediately cast is a strong interaction.

Tainted Sigil has potential, but in mistercakes deck Worldly Tutor seems like a better 5th Children. It still costs 1 less life to tutor for Children and cast Children than to cast Tainted Sigil (2 less life if you have to tutor for Sigil). Each life point matters for sustaining the combo and not randomly dying to Lightning Bolt.

Sigil seems better in a Mardu Welder build (Goblin Welder, Entomb, Enlightened Tutor, Burning Wish, Trash for Treasure, Doomsday, Bolas's Citadel, Mox Opal etc.), where the artifact typing is much more relevant and there's no green for creature tutors.

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Bolas's Citadel

// 12 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Siege Rhino
3 Thragtusk
1 Erebos, God of the Dead

// 9 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains

// 17 Sorcery
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dark Petition
4 Diabolic Intent


i think that erebos is worth a mention in here. grey merchant too, but i'm not sure if he fits that well. for 1B you can draw a card, the deck gets the mana pretty easily, especially with hitting ritual effects off of the top of the deck.

[FTW]

Too bad Erebos can't be found with GSZ. As a 1-of do you think he comes up often enough to matter? He could be a good back-up plan if you have less mana but a tutor effect.

What about Kitchen Finks (life) or Viridian Emissary (ramp) to have more low cost fodder for Therapy and Diabolic Intent?

Also what about more fetches to have more thinning and shuffle effects to help the combo keep going?


//Engine: 4
4 Bolas's Citadel

//Creatures: 11
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Viridian Emissary
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Children of Korlis
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk

//Spells: 25
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Diabolic Intent
3 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony

//Lands: 20
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains

[ahg113]

Kitchen finks is a good add. If we're running six black tutors and 4 green ones, i'm confidant 1-of's are acceptable granted the impact is evident.

I'm wondering about the green tutors, does it make sense to mix GSZ and W.Tutor's? 2-2 split, as both shine pre-post citadel for different reasons. (Also, i'm unsure how GSZ acts as a block when on top of the library, cast and just fail to find, shuffle effect for 1 life, +1 storm.)

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Bolas's Citadel

// 12 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Knight of the Reliquary

// 9 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy

// 17 Sorcery
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dark Petition
4 Diabolic Intent


been goldfishing a lot with this list, and am pretty happy with it now. reliquary gives you potentially a few extra shuffles and can set up something like -> sac land -> shuffle and grab a fetch. then you can fetch into dryad arbor, which gives you some extra sac fodder.

[mistercakes]

New vamp tutor here is great. Can replace a few spells. Enables more turn 2 citadels as well, so that's pretty exciting.

turn 1 bayou, veteran explorer
turn 2 culling the weak, get 2 lands. cast citadel. play land, cast scheming symmetry. game over!

also turn 1 you can cast scheming symmetry for missing piece.
turn 2 cast explorer, culling, citadel. chance to win there still exists, but need to get lucky off the top.

[mistercakes]

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
4 Bolas's Citadel

// 11 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Knight of the Reliquary

// 9 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
1 Nurturing Peatland

// 18 Sorcery
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent
4 Imperial Seal

[FTW]

I thought Imperial Seal was banned in Legacy? Did they unban it?

[whienot]

I thought Imperial Seal was banned in Legacy? Did they unban it?

Stand in for Scheming Symmetry.

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/small/front/0/1/01acc50b-856d-442d-9880-1a892b40643b.jpg?1560784524

[ahg113]

Haven't been keeping up with the previews, but scheming symetry looks amazing in this deck.

Find a balanced card, then break it.

Was going to buy a broken watch... now i may buy magic cards instead...

What is jank may never die, long live jank.

Oh, and it's hilarious that in a 1v1 match, leyline of sanctity/ivory mask/etc. effectively act as counters since the 2nd player cannot be a legal target. Whomp whomp, corner case rules are fun!

[mistercakes]

Leyline already beat the other version, you need to run 2 doomsday to gain infinite life. The tutor just helps the consistency. Can run the extra doomsday now as it would give you 6 instant wins off the top.

[ahg113]

How does 2 doomsday gain infinite life? Exiling cards and paying half your life more than once, doesn't make a ton of sense to me.

Since leyline will be a thing, how to circumvent that? Initial thought is something like hurricane damage that doesn't target, or a token generator like Army of the Damned or Beacon of Creation. Or just reclamation sage. But what if more than one piece of hate?

[mistercakes]

first doomsday builds a pile with

children of korlis + doomsday + tendrils etc.

but to simplify let's just pretend you have no goal of winning, just infinite life.

start at 7 life. cast first doomsday. go to 2. cast children, go to 1. sac children, gain 6. cast doomsday #2. rebuild the same pile and you're back at 2 life. cast children again, go to 1. sac children, gain 12 life. now you're at 13. cast doomsday, go to 5. cast children, go to 4. sac children. gain 21. etc.

at the end you can put a tendrils as one of your 5 cards as you'll have infinite storm. i also like having something like...siege rhino + cabal therapy. you can siege rhino them to death too.

[ahg113]

first doomsday builds a pile with

children of korlis + doomsday + tendrils etc.

but to simplify let's just pretend you have no goal of winning, just infinite life.

start at 7 life. cast first doomsday. go to 2. cast children, go to 1. sac children, gain 6. cast doomsday #2. rebuild the same pile and you're back at 2 life. cast children again, go to 1. sac children, gain 12 life. now you're at 13. cast doomsday, go to 5. cast children, go to 4. sac children. gain 21. etc.

at the end you can put a tendrils as one of your 5 cards as you'll have infinite storm. i also like having something like...siege rhino + cabal therapy. you can siege rhino them to death too.

Hmm, you are wise and paitent. What we have here is a failure to rtfc. I missed that doomsday grabs cards from the yard as well. So spicy.

[[reptiLe]]

at the end you can put a tendrils as one of your 5 cards as you'll have infinite storm. i also like having something like...siege rhino + cabal therapy. you can siege rhino them to death too.

Rhinotherapy doesn't loop, as therapy is exiled when flashbacking :P

[mistercakes]

;1071972']Rhinotherapy doesn't loop, as therapy is exiled when flashbacking :P

Poop, you're right.

[ahg113]

Poop, you're right.

If the Siege Rhino looping is really a necessary trick to have in the back pocket, for a SB, add in some number of Carrion Feeder, and the 2nd Doomsday could help too in the SB.

[mistercakes]

It's not important. 🙂

[[reptiLe]]

It's not important. 🙂

I didn't really care either, I just wanted to say "Rhynotherapy".

[mistercakes]

i was just thinking, even though it's a bit of a nonbo with citadel, it might be okay to run a griselbrand or two in here. he comes down on turn 3 in this deck? is that too slow?

you can get him with turn 2 in christmas land.

turn 1 land + gsz for dryad arbor, turn 2 phyrexian tower. tap arbor, cast veteran explorer. sac arbor to tower BB. tap t1 land. BBG. use B for culling. BBBB + BG, get 2 lands. cast griselbrand....

[ahg113]

I think Griz is a bridge too far under normal circumstances. Maybe it's something to side into instead of Citadel G2 or G3, but the space he'd take seems very counter productive MD.

N00b question. How do taxing effects interact with Citadel's alternate casting cost ability?

[DireLemming]

I'd sooner run a Living Wish package then. A bit slow but you get a lot of tools

[ahg113]

What are folks thinking about for a sideboard? I got silly and went on a spree to make this thing in paper.

Thinking beacon of creation (because i like it even though it's a bad card), black sun zenith, prenicious deed, abrupt decay, more discard(?, hymn, kozilek), black leyline, City of Solitude.

[forestfold]

I think Griz is a bridge too far under normal circumstances. Maybe it's something to side into instead of Citadel G2 or G3, but the space he'd take seems very counter productive MD.

N00b question. How do taxing effects interact with Citadel's alternate casting cost ability?

Exactly as stated in most cases, you would pay the CMC in life and then pay x additional mana. With Trinisphere, you would pay the CMC in life and then 3 mana. Things that reduce cost would have no effect unless there was also a tax in place from something, since it is based on CMC. (i believe, after rereading it)

[ahg113]

Food for thought regarding all those storm triggers if someone can't be targeted- Hunting Pack.

Makes a bunch of dudes to bum rush opponent, have bodies left over to sac to Citadel. A larger meaner version of Beacon of Creation. Also, thinking about a single Beacon of Unrest in SB, and maybe a Death Wish MD. Just make the options a bit more plastic to solve whatever may be out there.

Veil of Summer
Leylines
Removal (creature and/or artifact|enchantments)
Discard

Food for thought since the investment has already been made...

[ahg113]

Gold fishing, unmolested, getting a bunch of turn 3 wins. Usually includes 1 or 2 therapies.

// Legacy - Bolas's Dude Ramp Storm


// 60 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
3 Bolas's Citadel

// 11 Creature
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Knight of the Reliquary

// 9 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Crop Rotation

// 18 Land
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Nurturing Peatland

// 19 Sorcery
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Death Wish
1 Beacon of Unrest
4 Imperial Seal


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Carrion Feeder

// 8 Enchantment
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Seal of Primordium

// 4 Instant
SB: 1 Hunting Pack
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay

// 2 Sorcery
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Beacon of Creation


The SB needs a lot of work, but I'm enjoying having the Death Wish in the deck, usually goes for the second Doomsday, but can get either token generator if necessary.

Hello hello hello, is there anybody out there?

Have to wait for M20 before all the cards are accessible anyway, but it feels good to goldfish. Scheming Symmetry feels great.

[ahg113]

Just to breath a little life into this.

Finally got this thing put together in paper (minus a Savannah, c'mon eBay.) A buddy made me hip to a spell that had alluded my attention before, Weather the Storm. So I moved Reclamation Sage to the SB, and cut Crop Rotation.

It's janky and I love it. My buddy was skeptical when I shared the deck list, but in goldfishing he enjoyed the zaniness of it. Feels unlucky not to get a kill before t4. Adding Deathwish with the life gain cards already there and a 2nd Doomsday in the board, the deck really does feel like it can win through almost anything. Creature damage, life loss, infiinite life. With two Doomsdays, it's nigh impossible to get decked. Has 7 tutors any card tutors, 3 green creature tutors, a recursive repeating spell,

Have only putzed around on Cockatrice still, may waste $30 and play this in an actual event if everything else in life falls right. Or I can dream about getting to a weekly and it'll only cost me $5.

Play this, test it, tune it, enjoy it. Make it better.

Random thought. Is there a green creature worth getting with GSZ that's must answer? I think the answer is no, or it'd be Progenitus or in Reanimator, but still, figure to ask. Oh to remember a day when Verdant Force was the bee's knees. Because yes, I do want to shove that card into this pile. Why? Because I am bad at magic. Verdant Force > Thragtusk?


3 Bolas's Citadel
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
2 Weather the Storm
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Nurturing Peatland
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Death Wish
1 Beacon of Unrest
4 Scheming Symmetry

1 Carrion Feeder
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Hunting Pack
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Doomsday
1 Beacon of Creation


For the hell of it, because this is a different configuration than the first deck I considered with this title. I've been calling this version, Bolas's Dude Ramp Storm. Feel free to come up with a better list, and a better name.

[LOLWut]

Random thought. Is there a green creature worth getting with GSZ that's must answer? I think the answer is no, or it'd be Progenitus or in Reanimator, but still, figure to ask. Oh to remember a day when Verdant Force was the bee's knees. Because yes, I do want to shove that card into this pile. Why? Because I am bad at magic. Verdant Force > Thragtusk?

I've been Nic Fitted by both Archon of Valor's Reach and Elderscale Wurm lately.

[ahg113]

I've been Nic Fitted by both Archon of Valor's Reach and Elderscale Wurm lately.

Interesting. Which did you find to be a more troublesome creature. I'm thinking the Archon.

[mistercakes]

my thoughts when creating the list was that cards like siege rhino and thragtusk are effectively free off of citadel and don't cost a ton of mana with GSZ.

[ahg113]

I get that, but while gold fishing i've run into GSZ, plus mana, already got the two arbors, what to do? I've fetched thragtusk b4, which isn't bad, but not great.

Just musing for outside the box, although archon is disruption...

[mistercakes]

I get that, but while gold fishing i've run into GSZ, plus mana, already got the two arbors, what to do? I've fetched thragtusk b4, which isn't bad, but not great.

Just musing for outside the box, although archon is disruption...

i'd recommend just scouring through the regular nicfit threads for options.

[ahg113]

So the combo is strong, the tutors just shy of what's actually wanted. Breeding Pit is a bad card, but would Bitterblossom or Dreadhorde Invasion be worthy adds?

- 1 Scheming Symmetry
- 1 GSZ

Both tutors are very conditionally good, but one is only excellent with Citadel in play, and the other is a ramp spell that loses some effectiveness later in the game. Both are not good in multiples.

While Bitterblossom leans into the going wide for Citadel activation, it's unlikely that will make much of a difference, the games aren't intended to protract that long. So for price reasons only, going to test Dreadehorde Invasion as a 2 of. Smoke them if you got'em.

Also, the Scrubland, not really sought after much. Would that be better as another basic. Generally i do like the manabase. Bayou and Savannah make sense, Scrubland is questionable.

Edit- this missing piece is what prompted the nic fit gsz target, which really doesn't jive with the rest of the deck truly.

[ahg113]

Putzing around on Cockatrice, I happened to peek in on a game with another Citadel engine deck.

user on cockatrice - DragonDayDragon:

// Citadel Storm

// 60 Maindeck
// 22 Artifact
4 Mox Opal
2 Bolas's Citadel
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
3 Welding Jar

// 3 Creature
3 Goblin Welder

// 11 Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Weather the Storm

// 8 Land
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Badlands
1 Swamp

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Karn, the Great Creator

// 13 Sorcery
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Faithless Looting
2 Burning Wish
3 Trash for Treasure


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Bolas's Citadel
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 1 Creature
SB: 1 Ashen Rider

// 3 Instant
SB: 3 Assassin's Trophy

// 8 Sorcery
SB: 1 Crippling Fatigue
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 By Force
SB: 1 Shenanigans
SB: 1 Trash for Treasure
SB: 3 Reverent Silence

[ahg113]

Just to put pen to paper ('ish). So Carrion Feeder is superfluous because Culling the Weak is a thing, and it can be included with two Doomsday for the infinite loop. So what to put in this new free found spot? Helm of Obedience and I'm unsure why it wasn't thought of earlier. Only because the deck has three Leylines in the SB, why not include a win-con with the don't lose con? I usually side out the Beacon of Unrest when finding what to do, but I keep it in now. And from the yard, the singleton still works with Doomsday, or Citadel, etc.

Still jamming away, need to find somewhere in the wild/irl to sling this slop. Keep brewing.

(Just for the sake of it, I usually side out one GSZ, an Explorer, Scheming, Diabolic Intent, and from there it depends on the match-up, but KotR, Thragtusk, those usually take a seat as well. If really pressed, a Citadel or the Beacon as well.

P.S. - I've been a big fan of Dreadhorde Invasion. Cheap, does work, present an actual threat, make all the sac cards a lot more live. Would include this or Bitterblossom in every list, am never upset to see one in hand to cast.

[ahg113]

Necro -

This is the list I most recently played with-
3 Bolas's Citadel

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Knight of the Reliquary

2 Dreadhorde Invasion

4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
2 Weather the Storm

2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Nurturing Peatland

1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Death Wish
1 Beacon of Unrest
3 Scheming Symmetry

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Hunting Pack
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Doomsday
1 Beacon of Creation


I like the deck, but it's missing a little, something. It's definitely fun to play, and when not in that REL cut-throat competition, it gets praise from the lookie-loos in the peanut gallery, and opponents aren't mad at ya either. I think the addition of Wishclaw Talisman can add something positive, another tutor. The downside of giving it to your opponent shouldn't* matter if the turn never passes. There's also the situation of acceleration, and discard, protection in the same way ANT/TES proactively use Duress/TS.

Obvious cuts are Beacon of Unrest (too cute), Knight of the Reliquary (low impact), Thragtusk (prefer Seige Rhino), then it gets difficult, maybe a V. Explorer (7 basics for 12 potential fetches), ?. What to add, initial thought is Duress, open to suggestions.

Also this deck is missing card draw. Top would be great, but Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, would have to do unless someone can think of something better.

[ahg113]

Still luck based draw, but I do enjoy turn 4/5 infinite loops with Doomsday. Welcome additions/subtractions to the current iteration. Someone with Modo, kind enough to take this into the wild? Cockatrice, is sparse, at best.

3 Bolas's Citadel
2 Wishclaw Talisman
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Children of Korlis
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Siege Rhino
2 Dreadhorde Invasion
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
2 Weather the Storm
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Nurturing Peatland
1 Doomsday
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Diabolic Intent
3 Scheming Symmetry
1 Death Wish
2 Duress

1 Helm of Obedience
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Hunting Pack
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Doomsday
1 Beacon of Creation

[FTW]

If you're on the creature-based plan, what about
Goblin Welder
Entomb


Getting Citadel into play seems like the hardest part and that would help.

[ahg113]

If you're on the creature-based plan, what about
Goblin Welder
Entomb


Getting Citadel into play seems like the hardest part and that would help.

Up thread there is a post that was red heavy using the goblin package. I wanted to shy away from it because it relies more on artifacts, and at heart, i want to abuse doomsday as much as possible.

[FTW]

The other nice thing about the red list is it's low in lands. With a high land count Bolas will do nothing a lot, unless you also have tutors.
+4 Land Grant
It lets you both lower the land count and then thin your deck of lands/reshuffle as you're going off.

Why not 4 Doomsday maindeck to maximize the Doomsdays?

[rufus]

...
Why not 4 Doomsday maindeck to maximize the Doomsdays?

It seems like you don't want to see Doomsday until you're going off, so running less than 4 could make sense. (Running a Shelldock Isle package or something else that turns doomsday into more of an enabler might change that.)

Is Dreadhorde Invasion supposed to be an enabler for Culling the Weak / Diabolic Intent?

[FTW]

But it's easier to cast Doomsday than to hardcast Bolas, so if there's a winning Doomsday pile, why not have the option to just play that?

Can the deck only win with hardcast Bolas + Doomsday as a 2-card combo?

Dreadhorde seems to be for token fodder since you'll never survive to 6/6 lifelink. Bitterblossom seems strictly better, making a new token every turn, dodging removal better, and blocking flyers. Bitterblossom can also just win games. The deck should have 4 Veteran Explorer too. You need sac fodder and as many lands as possible, otherwiser 3BBB is not happening.

[ahg113]

Dreadhorde is there as a fodder producer. Up thread I said it was a budget decision to grab dreadhorde instead of Bitterblossom. But in effect, they both produce a token a turn if the previous token was used to chump or sac.

Culling and d.rit are the enablers to hardcast Citadel. It's true, there's not really a way to win without Citadel in play. There's no card draw to make a Doomsday pile legit upon resolution.

If testing, feel free to swap Bitterblossom in.

Shelldock would be a very cool trick, but adding U completely warps the deck. And lands are important, but Land Grant shines in decks that run few lands, like Belcher, or gimmick Manaless Dredge decks. An opening hand of 2 lands and Land Grant is a tough keep, because land grant doesn't combo with any other aspect of the deck.

I do appreciate the traffic though. The more ideas the better.

There's a lot of ways to abuse Citadel, this is attempting to mash Citadel in-between Nic Fit and Doomsday.