Legacy Innovations and Brews

[mistercakes]

I wanted to start a thread here as it was mentioned on Reddit how to improve reasons why people should still use this forum instead of just relying on discord.

One of the best parts of legacy is the ability to do some brewing. A lot of decklists get posted and most get overlooked. (Especially those coming from the Hareruya website.)

I'll leave the first post where I can post some links and references.

[mistercakes]

// jpa93 (7th place) a legacy deck by jpa93 (dec) version

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Mentor

// 18 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Liliana's Triumph
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 20 Land
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

// 6 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

// 8 Sorcery
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Null Rod

// 6 Instant
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Lingering Souls


I wanted to start this with a brew which sees some play, but I think is more or less off the radar. Hoping to get some other's feedback on it, and start a conversation. Every few days or at least once a week I'll update the thread with a new deck, however anyone can post on here as long as they feel like the deck is innovative, or a brew, and had some kind of tournament showing, no matter how large the tournament.

pros:
threats are diverse
delver for early game, mentor for early/endgame
6 planeswalkers can outvalue and steal games
daze + force + discard for anti combo
reasonable amount of removal, but not too narrow.

cons:
light on threats
manabase is a bit messy.
cantrips + discard + delver is weak to chalice. (although teferi answers it maindeck)

[Megadeus]

Does that even count? I mean it's a Xerox deck and they changed a couple threats. This is why legacy isn't as interesting as it used to be

[mistercakes]

i don't want this thread to be a whining fest.

if you want to complain you can always go over to the banned thread. the point of the thread is to get a little sense of community on here.

thanks!

[kinda]

i don't want this thread to be a whining fest.

if you want to complain you can always go over to the banned thread. the point of the thread is to get a little sense of community on here.

thanks!

I think megadeus has a point though, you could discuss this list reasonably in existing discords i would think.

[mistercakes]

feel free to post a list, i just grabbed one that wasn't a stock 75. i'm not going to fight over a list like this, i personally don't care for it, but i felt like the combination of delver + mentor was interesting enough.

[mistercakes]

I'll update again later when I have time, but I'll add that narset mono blue deck with boomerang. Don't have time to find the list/link, but will get later.

If anyone has it on hand, can they share?

[Fox]

Eh, the issue is that Mentor gets worse with each additional copy you run past ~2, and worse again for each other creature [not called Snapcaster] you topdeck. This anti-synergy is why Esper Mentor was always either legacy's best tier 3 deck or worst tier 2 deck. Minimal [and incidentally money-saving] changes will change this deck to miracles; a deck that can maximize Mentor.

Daze picking up Tundra when you're trying to cast a 3cmc payoff, which generally needs 4th mana to ensure monk token value, is inherently suspect. You're also trying to play expensive PWs while picking up lands. So again we see the self-defeating anti-combo theme native to Mentor-themed decks.

So many brews in legacy don't do anything novel, and what we're left with is a deck that is playing good stuff in a way that is worse than Counterbalance (miracles) or Hymn (Grixis). If you're playing Esper Delver, you probably need to begin brewing from this point:

18 or 19 land, 3-4x are Wasteland
4x BS
4x Ponder
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
4x StP
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag
2x Last Hope

You have 10 slots left to figure out what you want to do; the most interesting would be Death's Shadow. There are some incredibly interesting life shenanigans cards offered by BW you could certainly use at the 2 mana mark (+/- LDV). Examples include Orzhov Charm, Bitterblossom, Arguel's Blood Fast, Final Payment. At the three mana mark you gain access to interesting effects like Anguished Unmaking and Convalescent Care. A deck using tools like these would qualify as sufficiently different.

Conversely, you could build a larger deck (no Delver, no Mentor) and have fun with Hidden Stockpile + Aminatou, the Fateshifter + Thopter/Sword.

[kinda]

I think grixis phoenix is a good example, it was posted on this site by whitefaces in 2018 but didn't show up on mtgtop8.com until 2019 (the first result being whitefaces too). The list being on this site let lots of people input before it got big enough for discord.

Pow22 got 21st at GP Birmingham losing his top 8 win and in on camera with delver miracles. I think the overall point is all of the innovation seems to come from England and the rest of the world needs to focus up :cool:.

[FTW]

// 8 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Mentor


No. Just no. Delver is for tempo. Mentor is for control.

Do you have anything more innovative than merging two staple Xerox shells? I'm surprised no one has posted RUG Delver with a singleton basic and 1 Light Up the Stage? Or Death & Taxes with Snow-Covered Plains?

[mistercakes]

It's fine, I give up. Let the site rot, the only thing consistent about this site is the negativity.

[Megadeus]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30655&iddeck=260462

This is probably the most interesting list I could find on TCDecks. Still just a Xerox shell at the end of the day though. Ponder and Brainstorm are cancerous to this format

[Fox]

It's fine, I give up. Let the site rot, the only thing consistent about this site is the negativity.

I think you've gotten good feedback so far. It's hard to convey the difference between being direct and being negative with the written word. Your list doesn't work for a couple of reasons, and it's not doing anything novel ~ it's just doing the same thing (xerox), in a worse way. These are fair assessments, and I've given you the parameters [number of free slots] with which you can actually brew with Esper Delver.

[Megadeus]

I don't use discord so I have no clue why people choose it over the source so I can't speak to that. But the format is pretty stale for the most part. I mean miracles is still borderline the best deck in the format without probably it's best non brainstorm card and everything else is either Xerox strategy or token nonblue deck that preys on incredibly slanted blue field.

[mistercakes]

my interest isn't to talk about brainstorm and ponder on here and if they should or should not be banned. my input on that has no effect on the updating of the ban/restricted list.

it's also not to bash the decks that are being posted. maybe it's best to try your hardest to find optimism in the lists, and see what comes of that.

any pile of crap can go 5-0 on modo with enough persistence and luck. we can analyze anything and break it down until we get to the point of saying, why aren't we just playing XYZ instead.

there's a reason there are understood tiers for decks. there are optimal ways to have a strategy, but there are some great brewers in the format that prove that you can be good enough to win with something that isn't optimal.

since the format is "stale", why not try to appreciate what people are trying to do with these conditions, instead of complaining about brainstorm and ponder, or for some players chalice of the void decks.

one of the decks i like playing the most is ruby storm, i could easily play ANT and call it a day. i choose not to because i prefer to play something that involves some tinkering on my side, and not approaching it purely from an execution standpoint.

regardless if that esper delver mentor deck is built wrong, it could still be interesting to understood why JPA won with it.

did he have good matchups? (what were they?)
did he just outplay the opponents? (then maybe decklist is irrelevant) etc.

JPA is a very good player, shouldn't we try to understand some of the deckbuilding logic here?

these are the kinds of questions that are useful in asking, instead of assuming we know everything.

if there's one thing i've learned in mtg over the long span of years i've been playing, it's that we shouldn't make assumptions about cards/decks until you've at least piloted the deck or tried them to see if there is actually merit.

btw i found that blue list (and conveniently it doesn't have brainstorm or ponder).


1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Lore Broker
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Day's Undoing
4 Preordain
4 Boomerang
2 Commandeer
2 Flusterstorm
4 Foil
4 Force of Will
4 Chrome Mox
2 Back to Basics
1 Blast Zone
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Gemstone Caverns
14 Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

sb:

2 Commandeer
1 Flusterstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Ravenous Trap
4 Surgical Extraction
[/cards]

with this deck:

what are you hoping to play against?
what are you looking to dodge?
what cards are interesting? are they optimal for this strategy?
does the new set offer anything?
does the player who went 5-0 (zackwithak) have any comments (if they are even on thesource?)

[Fox]

-4 Preordain, +4 Chalice
-2 singleton lands, -2 Island, +4 Ancient Tomb

Deck family Splinter Twin -> upgraded version known as As Foretold stompy. The deck skeleton is mostly solved. Assuming group build-skeleton incorporated, we ask: does your deck do something different. The answer is yes. While it's probably less powerful than alt-casting Balance, it's a fundamentally different strategy.

Reason to play this deck: Foil -> discard Echo of Eons. The four cuts: Lore Broker.

Further deck optimization:
-probably don't play B2B
-cut Island total in half, q.s. with Vista and Tarn. (SB option basic Mountain, Blood Moon if you feel like you need land hate)
-SB Boseju x2ish
---
Your questions:
-Hoping to play vs slower combo or scoops to Chalice x=1.
-Hoping to avoid Burn, fast combo, dredge mechanic, SB Choke, anything with board presence.
-questions 3 & 4 answered prior.

[mistercakes]

-4 Preordain, +4 Chalice
-2 singleton lands, -2 Island, +4 Ancient Tomb

Deck family Splinter Twin -> upgraded version known as As Foretold stompy. The deck skeleton is mostly solved. Assuming group build-skeleton incorporated, we ask: does your deck do something different. The answer is yes. While it's probably less powerful than alt-casting Balance, it's a fundamentally different strategy.

Reason to play this deck: Foil -> discard Echo of Eons. The four cuts: Lore Broker.

Further deck optimization:
-probably don't play B2B
-cut Island total in half, q.s. with Vista and Tarn. (SB option basic Mountain, Blood Moon if you feel like you need land hate)
-SB Boseju x2ish
---
Your questions:
-Hoping to play vs slower combo.
-Hoping to avoid Burn, fast combo, dredge mechanic, SB Choke, anything with board presence.
-questions 3 & 4 answered prior.

it's good feedback.

my guesses (i haven't played the deck)

preordain was to help find combo pieces, between preordain and narset -> you could dig reliably without shuffling the deck. if the deck incorporates the new blue twister, it could be pretty interesting here.

lore broker is maybe a little too cute, but does work with narset as a discard effect + loot.

i'm not sure if ancient tomb is extremely helpful for this deck, as you are pretty reliant on getting double blue. a deck like this also really needs to not hurt itself as best as it can.

chalice also lowers the blue count.

double blue cards: narset, clique, the jace, boomerang. hands with tomb can be a bit clunky. my guess here is that while chalice is extremely strong (enough for this player to warrant 4 in the board, it has matchups where it just isn't very good. it's possible that this deck can't take advantage of a turn 1 chalice enough. it's also possible i'm way off here. i'd still rather see a turn 1 chalice vs a lot of decks, even if i don't have a good follow up.

the fetches, while they could improve some mana fixing or thinning of the deck - come at the life cost and again it looks like the original build was to maintain the deck order while digging for key cards.

does the deck also get any useful toys with force of negation ? could this even justify something like standstill in the sb?


i think the reason to play this deck isn't really so much foil -> X, it's playing 4 narset maindeck and being able to support it with as many reactive cards as possible. it looks like this deck is looking to stall the game, then drop a narset, counter something on their turn, then activate narset again and ideally day's undoing.

i think there's a similar modern version, and it's likely this is just a port from that deck. to me this is quite a different brew than as foretold stompy, which is looking to steal wins with chalice and drop a planeswalker (or cast suspend + no cc spells like balance and visions). that by its own nature is a proactive deck, this is a reactive one.

[mistercakes]

here's another deck that looks so weird, it could only come from japan:

for reference: https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236099/show/


4 Ornithopter
4 Roterothopter
2 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Glint-Nest Crane
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
2 Master of Etherium
1 Etched Champion
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cranial Plating
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Tangle Wire
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Blast Zone
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island

Sideboard
2 Blast Zone
2 Hope of Ghirapur
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Etched Champion
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tangle Wire


the core of the deck:

3 Sai, Master Thopterist
2 Master of Etherium
4 Retrofitter Foundry


seriously how cool is this deck? 4 retrofitter foundry? i didn't even know this card existed. i think this is a great example of a deck that there might not be too much to talk about, but couldn't really warrant its own thread on thesource or discord.

turn 1 ornithoper, foundry, make a 4/4?

this deck seems like an absolute nightmare for anything trying to control the board. hope of ghirapur actually gives some maindeck hate vs faster decks, and you're likely to connect with one of the equipment rather easily. again in this list it's interesting to see the player utilize something like darksteel citadel over ancient tomb, which would really help speed up the deck.

is this an intentional decision? maybe so.

this deck is one of the reasons i still like legacy, and don't care about playing tier 1 decks.

[Finn]

// jpa93 (7th place) a legacy deck by jpa93 (dec) version

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Mentor

// 18 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Liliana's Triumph
4 Swords to Plowshares

// 20 Land
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

// 6 Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

// 8 Sorcery
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize


// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Null Rod

// 6 Instant
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Lingering Souls


I wanted to start this with a brew which sees some play, but I think is more or less off the radar. Hoping to get some other's feedback on it, and start a conversation. Every few days or at least once a week I'll update the thread with a new deck, however anyone can post on here as long as they feel like the deck is innovative, or a brew, and had some kind of tournament showing, no matter how large the tournament.

pros:
threats are diverse
delver for early game, mentor for early/endgame
6 planeswalkers can outvalue and steal games
daze + force + discard for anti combo
reasonable amount of removal, but not too narrow.

cons:
light on threats
manabase is a bit messy.
cantrips + discard + delver is weak to chalice. (although teferi answers it maindeck)

Love it! This deck is very interesting to me. The design of this deck itself is flawed though in that it does not have a direction. My suspicion is that it has not been tested sufficiently by people who know what to look for. To be specific, the Delvers and Dazes belong in one deck while the Planeswalkers and Mentors belong in another. Also, Lili's Triumph in a deck that does not have Liliana seems kinda silly. That makes the card just a worse Diabolic Edict. Also, Teferi while cool, probably does not belong in this deck at all. It wants a control-combo shell. So to wrap this up with some clarity, I like the new Narset a lot. I do not like this deck at all.

[colo]

here's another deck that looks so weird, it could only come from japan:

for reference: https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236099/show/


4 Ornithopter
4 Roterothopter
2 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Glint-Nest Crane
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
2 Master of Etherium
1 Etched Champion
4 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cranial Plating
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Tangle Wire
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Blast Zone
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island

Sideboard
2 Blast Zone
2 Hope of Ghirapur
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Etched Champion
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tangle Wire



Retrofitter Foundry is an awesome anti-control card that I've enjoyed in various Painter lists, and I'd love to build a deck around it some time.However, in this particular list, I think that you simply MUST run The Antiquities War.

[Ronald Deuce]

This is why legacy isn't as interesting as it used to be

Attitude is everything.

[mistercakes]

Retrofitter Foundry is an awesome anti-control card that I've enjoyed in various Painter lists, and I'd love to build a deck around it some time.However, in this particular list, I think that you simply MUST run The Antiquities War.

yea i agree. i think antiquities war probably has a place in this list somewhere.

it's possible that the esper deck wants to do everything, that's kind of where i think the "focus" or lack there of is.

it wants the delver + daze + force to close out games vs combo, but it wants to also be able to run the slow game vs the control decks. there's a bunch of things that are awkward in it, i don't think anyone is disputing that!

i'm not sure liliana's triumph is strictly worse than diabolic edict.

both are instants, one allows you to target yourself, the other gets around leyline of sanctity. he's also running 1 liliana in the sb fwiw.

[Scott]

This won a 46-player tournament in Brazil (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30643&iddeck=260346) two weekends ago

// Creatures (7)
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stoneforge Mystic

// Instants (5)
1 Fatal Push
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sorceries (10)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize

// Enchantments (6)
1 Oath of Kaya
2 Bitterblossom
3 Humility

// Planeswalkers (7)
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast

// Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Batterskull

// Lands (22)
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Kher Keep
1 Mountain
1 Plateau
1 Wasteland
2 Badlands
2 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
SB: 1 Palace Jailer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution

[mistercakes]

Looks like a deck that has been refined. I'm not really into stone forge decks, but I do like that daretti. :)

Maybe we can get that guy to comment.

[mistercakes]

I think this thopter deck could gain a lot from urza and could even justify running a cradle in there.

Play an ornithopter, get a token with Sai and net +UU mana. Not sure if that's just Christmasland, but seems like an easy 1 of.

[sco0ter]

The Retrofitter deck is intriguing! But where do you want to go from here? Just post links to ideas? IMO, we need a dedicated thread to something like this. On the other hand the Development forum is full of such decks, so what's the point?

@Retrofitter deck:
- I think it needs more disruption like Tangle Wire.
- Roterothopter seems too weak for me, weaker than Hope of Ghirapur
- I'd take it into an Artificer Tribal deck, with Stoneforge to search all these singleton equipments and Thopter Engineer to give your constructs haste.
- Or maybe more control with Thopter Foundry combo
- Urza fits very well, I agree

[Michael Keller]

Ran a Retrofitter deck with Antiquities War and Sai some months back and went 4-0 and another 4-0 in side events at an SCG Open.

[mistercakes]

Sounds awesome. Do you have your lists from back then? Wondering how it compares with this list.

[ronco]

I don't have a list as it was a deck I played against, but here are some of the cards I saw:

Sol Lands (tomb/city)
Karn, Scion of Urza
Urza's/Mishra's Bauble
LED
Walking Ballista
Monastery Mentor
Auriok Salvagers

LED and Slavagers = infinite mana, which powered out the ballista or gave infinite prowess with mentor. I don't know if that deck is established or not but a search here didn't yield anything on the first page.

That was all I saw of the list and I think it was mono white + colorless. I meant to follow up with him to see how he did. Couldn't remember what removal he had as I didn't see any (I was running ruby storm against him so he basically got to goldfish until I went off or died).

[Bosque]

I don't have a list as it was a deck I played against, but here are some of the cards I saw:

Sol Lands (tomb/city)
Karn, Scion of Urza
Urza's/Mishra's Bauble
LED
Walking Ballista
Monastery Mentor
Auriok Salvagers

LED and Slavagers = infinite mana, which powered out the ballista or gave infinite prowess with mentor. I don't know if that deck is established or not but a search here didn't yield anything on the first page.

That was all I saw of the list and I think it was mono white + colorless. I meant to follow up with him to see how he did. Couldn't remember what removal he had as I didn't see any (I was running ruby storm against him so he basically got to goldfish until I went off or died).

That's bomberman stompy, http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31754-Chalice-Bomberman-Bomberman-Stompy

[mistercakes]

I was referencing Michael's post about his thopter deck.

[Poron]

artifact decks will always be subpar in a world of Null Rod Karn and B2B Moon

a Null Rod against that list is virtually unbeatable

[mistercakes]

fortunately i think a person playing reterothopters doesn't really care about what other people are playing! :)

i would be super excited to play this with contamination or opposition.

[Fox]

@mistercakes on the Foil/Narset/Draw 7 deck. I forgot about Foil's Island requirement so probably land base 10 Island, 4 Vista, 4 Tomb, pick 2 utility land. I will say though that being able to profitably pitch Echo of Eons backed up by Day's Undoing + Narset playset is probably the main source of 'powerful enough to compete in legacy.' I think you have to back it up with Chalice's 'oops, I win.'

The main issue is that you need to be able to win the game, particularly against things on board. I think you run out of slots here. If Dev Tide was instant (or could be set up) it might work better, but Thing in the Ice is probably more realistic (just lack slots to play it). This is where As Foretold outclasses the Narset cheese strategy, b/c they play Balance and more walkers that win games (JTMS full of Chandra).

I think any Narset strat is going to run into this issue where you kinda need Narset and new Teferi on board at same time to do something interesting which exploits bounce threats/shuffle away/draw 6 more than opponent + Time Stop aspect of Day's Undoing (on your turn) with Teferi's +1 instant speed. Just to illustrate how slot intensive the jank is: use the new PW Piper (2/2 that sneaks in walkers), dump a mostly uncastable superfriend into play on their EoT -> begin your turn, +1 Teferi -> EoT exile trigger = Day's Undoing as Time Stop. Once you realize how many slots you're going to need, you probably back off the Narset plan and maximize Day's Undoing~Time Stop with Teferi +1; here though you still need something fundamentally broken you're either drawing into on their EoT (w/o risk of interaction) or something heroic with Time Stop mode.

There is certainly something there with Narset/Echo/Foil core, it's just hard to see what the endgame is. You're definitely on Tomb (thus Chalice mandatory), but board control and wincon parts are a little too fuzzy. One thing for sure though is that kind of deck can definitely prey on Hymn/SCM recursion nonsense, and it also randomly has an amazingly hilarious gameplan vs yard combo in all games. On countermagic, I don't think FoN has any place in such a deck b/c you need to be able to kill creatures on the stack; as submitted you'd basically auto-lose to resolved YP or Mentor if they ever made a token.

[pettdan]

I was referencing Michael's post about his thopter deck.

I'll message you the list, I think it wasn't published here, iirc, so I'll leave that up to the great creator (not sarcasm, just a reverent pun) to decide on that. ;)

[jmlima]

Does this count as something even remotely brew(ey):

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-rg-titan-post#online


4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boompile
4 Cloudpost
4 Crop Rotation
2 Elvish Rejuvenator
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Expedition Map
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Forest
1 From Beyond
4 Glimmerpost
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2 Maze of Ith
4 Pithing Needle
3 Primeval Titan
3 Punishing Fire
2 Taiga
2 Treasure Map
2 Ugin, the Ineffable
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Vesuva

Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Kozilek's Return
3 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Thought-Knot Seer

[mistercakes]

I don't think there needs to be strict requirements on if it qualified to be a brew or not. For me it should just generate some interest from the members of the forum on a general scale.

It has a lot of fun cards in there and probably wins a lot of the non combo matchup.

Where'd ya find the list, and can you put tags around the deck?

[8bit9mm]

I know mistercakes and some of the Painter crew have seen this, but it's definitely a brew and something I've been tinkering with since the printing of Karn.

Strawberry Bombcake

Land (20)
1x Ancient Den
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Arid Mesa
3x City of Traitors
1x Great Furnace
2x Mountain
2x Plains
3x Plateau

Instant (2)
2x Enlightened Tutor

Planeswalker (4)
4x Karn, the Great Creator

Artifact (18)
3x Grindstone
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Lodestone Bauble
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Mox Opal

Creature (16)
3x Auriok Salvagers
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Goblin Welder
4x Imperial Recruiter
3x Painter's Servant
1x Walking Ballista

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrade
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grindstone
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Painter's Servant
1x Pithing Needle
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Walking Ballista

[mistercakes]

i like this list. my only concern is painter doesn't add a lot of value without the red blasts. (of course it's another combo, which is cool)

[lavafrogg]

This is very rough, but do we have enough gas with Dreadhorde Arcanist to keep working on Mardu Pyromancer?

Arcanist is good with cantrips, but what about free looting's and thought seizes?

[8bit9mm]

i like this list. my only concern is painter doesn't add a lot of value without the red blasts. (of course it's another combo, which is cool)

I'll see if I can come up with a list tonight that has at least 4 Pyroblasts and give it a spin.
The problem is (from playing a ton of Painter) that blasts can be very polarizing.
They're either the best card in your deck, or they're absolutely worthless, with no in-between.

[jmlima]

...
Where'd ya find the list, and can you put tags around the deck?

I could, but I have not a scoobie about how to do it!...

I found it on the MTGO goldfish published deck lists.

The same player got 3x 5-0s with different incarnations of this deck:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/Angers

[H]

I could, but I have not a scoobie about how to do it!...


Does this count as something even remotely brew(ey):

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-rg-titan-post#online

4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boompile
4 Cloudpost
4 Crop Rotation
2 Elvish Rejuvenator
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Expedition Map
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Forest
1 From Beyond
4 Glimmerpost
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2 Maze of Ith
4 Pithing Needle
3 Primeval Titan
3 Punishing Fire
2 Taiga
2 Treasure Map
2 Ugin, the Ineffable
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Vesuva

Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Kozilek's Return
3 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Thought-Knot Seer

Just put a [cards] tag before, then close it with a /cards tag after the list.

[jmlima]

Just put a [cards] tag before, then close it with a /cards tag after the list.

Thanks!

[shonenkakumei]

I'll see if I can come up with a list tonight that has at least 4 Pyroblasts and give it a spin.
The problem is (from playing a ton of Painter) that blasts can be very polarizing.
They're either the best card in your deck, or they're absolutely worthless, with no in-between.

One thing about this list vs. mono-white bomberman is that you don't play Cavern of Souls, so it seems to me that adding back in 4 blast (even if sometimes bad) is worth it.

I think the Lodestone Bauble (sweet as the mill win is there) might be a fine cut--even the mono-white lists are cutting it now.

How have the opals been? And the deck in general (say, vs. "traditional" shortcake)?

[8bit9mm]

One thing about this list vs. mono-white bomberman is that you don't play Cavern of Souls, so it seems to me that adding back in 4 blast (even if sometimes bad) is worth it.

I think the Lodestone Bauble (sweet as the mill win is there) might be a fine cut--even the mono-white lists are cutting it now.

How have the opals been? And the deck in general (say, vs. "traditional" shortcake)?

I played some blasts last night. They were ok, but I felt like I was really sacrificing some of the explosiveness of running both combos and a full suite of fast mana.

Lodestone Bauble definitely gets the cut once Goblin Engineer is out, since he can just dump your Ballista in the bin.

Opals are great in this deck, although this deck runs many more artifacts than Shortcake.

Edit: also, here is another brew I've been working on since the announcement of the London Mulligan being put into place.

Here's my take on a 2-Card-Monte deck:

4-Karn-Monte

Land (16)
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
2x Seat of the Synod
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea

Planeswalker (7)
4x Karn, the Great Creator
3x Narset, Parter of Veils

Instant (4)
4x Brainstorm

Creature (3)
3x Painter's Servant

Artifact (16)
3x Grindstone
3x Helm of Obedience
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
3x Mox Opal

Sorcery (10)
3x Echo of Eons
3x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize

Enchantment (4)
4x Leyline of the Void

Sideboard
2x Collective Brutality
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Flusterstorm
1x Grindstone
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Painter's Servant
2x Perilous Voyage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Anvil of Bogardan

[mistercakes]

looks fun. who'd have thought, brainstorm makes everything better! i wouldn't be opposed to a transmute artifact in there somewhere, to help find a combo piece on the fly. (might not be great, but worth a test)

[Cire]

It seems that this thread has become a bomberman thread? Nothing wrong with that, but I was also wondering if anyone wants to join me in brainstorming something for Wren and Six? I feel that this is a strong card and that it is a strong card in decks that are not just Lands or Loam. I was brainstorming today ideas that could be built around Wren and Six.

My first thought was to get a core - and it seems that in any RG list the core is Punishing Fire. The usual amount is 3 PFs and 3 Groves. The next core item is GSZ. GSZ is usually run with 4 creatures that are "Must Gets" (Gofy if aggro, KOTR, etc - whatever is necessary for the deck) and 3-4 "Target Creatures". One of the major reasons to run Wren is a wasteland lock (and perhaps even double up with Ghost Quarter). As such the core of this hypothetical deck could be:

4 Wren and Six

4 Main Creature
2-3 [GSZ] Targets
1 Ramunap Excavator

4 GSZ
3 Punishing Fire

4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
0-2 Ghost Quarter

However, at this point, you quickly reach a couple of schisms, which have me stuck at the theoretical brewing stage.

1) - The first fork is whether to run 1 CMC cards or to run Chalice. Chalice, while sounding crazy actually has some precedent in Sylvan Stompy decks. The issue with going the stompy route is that current Sylvan Stompy decks are WBG with both white (in the form of KOTR) and black (in the form of Decay and Trophy) playing important roles in the deck. Choosing to go the chalice route would place you in Fork 2(a). On the other hand, choosing to play 1 CMC puts you in fork 2(b) - which is mainly a choice of what is your third color.
2(a) - If you run chalice the deck automatically acquires the following cards: 4 Ancient Tomb, 3-4 City of Traitors, 4 Mox Diamond, 4 Chalice of the Void. That is about 15 cards and combined with the above approximately 27 cards you have about 18 cards to play around with. That number decreases as you need to make room for about 22 (Wren should allow you to justify not running 24) That means out of the 18 cards you need to dedicate 8 spots to lands - leaving you 10 cards to play around with. The main issues to deal with are consistency (and thus you need a draw engine such as Sylvan Library or other) & Creature control (Ensnaring Bridge/Ghostly Prison or Decay/Trophy/Toxic). Moreover, as you are playing a stompy deck you have to either justify not running Karn the Great Creator or just run Karn. Assuming that it is impossible IMO for a stompy deck at the moment not to justify running Karn, you have to figure out a way to deal with the consistency/creature control issue with only about 6 cards, which seems almost impossible.
2(b) - If you are running 1CMC cards, you can automatically add in 4 Lightning Bolt into your list, and then face your first choice: 4C or 3C. 4C is potentially very doable given that Nobel Hierarch exists, and you may of course run Mox Diamond which goes well with Wren. 3C would though be a tighter and more consistent list. The issue though is what is the deck. Loam/Land decks are traditionally controlled, moreover, Wren is given towards a controlling playstyle. The fact that we are already running Punishing Fire only feeds into the narrative that we are playing a controlling deck. It would be hard to switch to an aggro based approach. As such I feel that the deck naturally would play blue. For better or worse blue already comes with its own set of must plays which are: 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force of Will. Given that you are playing blue, you may as well run 4 Nobel Hierarch and given Wren you can afford some accel with 1-2 Mox Diamond. Given the mana sources you can probably play 16-17 Lands only. Taken together going blue actually puts you over 60 requiring that you cut cards. Still Temur seems like a viable route. That said blue forces you to run certain cards and those cards warp the deck in such a way that the only invovation left is figuring out what to cut and if the deck itself works like that. Instead one can avoid blue and choose either white (for STP and in terms of control - KOTR, Teeg, SFM package) or black (Discard, Decay/Trophy, LOTV). Not sure which is best, but does seem like space is too tight for 4C.

Anyway, just wanted to present my general thoughts on possibly brewing with Wren to the group for discussion.

[Megadeus]

I don't see why you have to run tomb and City in a chalice deck. I think any deck running R&6 wants Mox diamond for the most part. Also I personally would rather be playing 1 drops like exploration and bolts and I guess crop torsion. I guess this deck is probably some hybrid between lands and aggro loam.

[mistercakes]

found another brew!

thanks japanese players:

https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236800/show/
https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236691/show/


1 Griselbrand
3 Neoform
1 Bitterblossom
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Baleful Strix
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Hydroblast
1 Vendilion Clique


and

interesting applejacks list:


4 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Veteran Explorer
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Mayhem Devil
1 Ramunap Excavator
4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Rhythm of the Wild
1 Domri, Anarch of Bolas
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Blast Zone
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction


thoughts? don't have the time today to write up my comments on it, but will when i get the chance :)

[sco0ter]

found another brew!

interesting applejacks list:


4 Orcish Lumberjack
2 Mayhem Devil
1 Ramunap Excavator
4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Greater Gargadon



This deck is from here probably: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-punishing-titania-legacy

Very nice synergies in the above cards. Orcish Lumberjack surely deserves more attention and a new review since this article:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/17345_Legacys_Allure_The_Pile_of_Misfit_Cards.html

[rufus]

...I was also wondering if anyone wants to join me in brainstorming something for Wren and Six? I feel that this is a strong card and that it is a strong card in decks that are not just Lands or Loam. I was brainstorming today ideas that could be built around Wren and Six.

My first thought was to get a core - and it seems that in any RG list the core is Punishing Fire. The usual amount is 3 PFs and 3 Groves. The next core item is GSZ. GSZ is usually run with 4 creatures that are "Must Gets" (Gofy if aggro, KOTR, etc - whatever is necessary for the deck) and 3-4 "Target Creatures". One of the major reasons to run Wren is a wasteland lock (and perhaps even double up with Ghost Quarter). As such the core of this hypothetical deck could be:

4 Wren and Six


You could go some other directions, but the synergistic overlap with loam - in particular - is pretty clear. They overlap in color, casting cost, both want to see land cards in the graveyard and both put land cards into your hand. So they work well in similar conditions, and loam also has obvious synergy with the ult on Wren and Six. It's hard to come up with something where one would be good but the other would not.

[mistercakes]

Loam is a huge mana sink. Wren only needs mana input once. Wren would also fit into tempo decks where wastelanding each turn doesn't come at the expense of a draw step, which tempo also generally requires.

[Cire]

You could go some other directions, but the synergistic overlap with loam - in particular - is pretty clear. They overlap in color, casting cost, both want to see land cards in the graveyard and both put land cards into your hand. So they work well in similar conditions, and loam also has obvious synergy with the ult on Wren and Six. It's hard to come up with something where one would be good but the other would not.


Loam is a huge mana sink. Wren only needs mana input once. Wren would also fit into tempo decks where wastelanding each turn doesn't come at the expense of a draw step, which tempo also generally requires.

That's essentially my thought process. Loam is mana-intensive and slow and lends itself to control builds by design. Wren though is cheap - can set up wasteland recursion and do other stuff for very cheap. I feel that it can be built around by allowing you to run tempo type builds (if you decide to run 1 CMC cards) or prison type builds (where you run chalice).

[rufus]

That's essentially my thought process. Loam is mana-intensive and slow and lends itself to control builds by design. Wren though is cheap - can set up wasteland recursion and do other stuff for very cheap. I feel that it can be built around by allowing you to run tempo type builds (if you decide to run 1 CMC cards) or prison type builds (where you run chalice).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think that punishing fires is a particularly good fit with a tempo game plan. My understanding is that "tempo" would mean something like slotting Wren into RUG delver to recycle wastelands and fetchlands and to occasionally do a lethal point of damage to a creature.

[bruizar]

If chalice and wrenn i propose the following package:

4x gruul signet
4x interplanar beacon
4x mox diamond
4x ancient tomb
3x city of traitor
4x wasteland
4x grove of the burn willows
3x punishing fire
4x wrenn and six
4x chalice of the void
----
X taiga/foothills
x blast zone
X ghost quarter
X choke
Instants and sorceries that work with retrace ultimate, like chaos warp or rolling earthquake or something

I just realized how insane wrenn ult is with ancient stirring...

[Cire]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think that punishing fires is a particularly good fit with a tempo game plan. My understanding is that "tempo" would mean something like slotting Wren into RUG delver to recycle wastelands and fetchlands and to occasionally do a lethal point of damage to a creature.

No fair enough - I just always saw PF as a back up safety valve in RG decks, but that was admittedly confusing a possible game plan.

[mistercakes]

If chalice and wrenn i propose the following package:

4x gruul signet
4x interplanar beacon
4x mox diamond
4x ancient tomb
3x city of traitor
4x wasteland
4x grove of the burn willows
3x punishing fire
4x wrenn and six
4x chalice of the void
----
X taiga/foothills
x blast zone
X ghost quarter
X choke
Instants and sorceries that work with retrace ultimate, like chaos warp or rolling earthquake or something

I just realized how insane wrenn ult is with ancient stirring...

Not ideal with chalice.

I'd be pretty interested in a deck with that free RG guy (modern manamorphose guy) could actually be in a zoo deck.

[mistercakes]

found another brew!

thanks japanese players:

https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236800/show/
https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236691/show/


1 Griselbrand
3 Neoform
1 Bitterblossom
3 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Baleful Strix
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Hydroblast
1 Vendilion Clique


and

interesting applejacks list:


4 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Veteran Explorer
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Mayhem Devil
1 Ramunap Excavator
4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Rhythm of the Wild
1 Domri, Anarch of Bolas
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Blast Zone
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction


thoughts? don't have the time today to write up my comments on it, but will when i get the chance :)

it's been a long day, but i have some time to comment!

the bug control deck is really interesting, utilizing the neoform to turn sprite and strix into TNN or Leovold at instant speed (as a 4/2 or 4/4 respectively), and making angler into griselbrand.

a 4/4 leovold is super dangerous....but so again is a 8/8 griselbrand. it's a really nice take on a bug control deck.

for the 2nd deck there's so much going on. it's clearly a deck that you will learn a lot of interesting tricks the more you play it. it's too bad mayhem can't be tutored with GSZ, it would be a really interesting way to just end the game for a low amount of mana.

here's a new one that just popped up:


3 Scrap Trawler
2 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
3 Terrarion
3 Defense Grid
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ichor Wellspring
2 Prophetic Prism
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Forest
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Tree of Tales

Sideboard
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
1 Scrap Trawler
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Return to Nature
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Krark-Clan Ironworks
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Spine of Ish Sah


if you're gonna go for a karn combo, you might as well have the most effective colorless mana generation. it actually looks like it can turn 2 pretty often, i wonder how crazy it needs to be to go turn 1. there's not too much else to comment here, other than people should probably try to understand the scrap trawler shenanigans if they want to play the deck. you'll be able to get to the 12 mana much easier if you do.

i'm surprised this deck isn't running some number of pantskarn and maindeck sai (at least 1).

[Scott]

It isn't the first time a deck like this has gotten a finish, but it's still uncommon, and this top 8 from a 42-player tournament (https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236539/show/) over the weekend has some recent additions.

// Creatures
4 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Mayhem Devil
1 Ramunap Excavator
4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Greater Gargadon

// Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith

// Instants
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command

// Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
1 Rhythm of the Wild

// Planeswalkers
1 Domri, Anarch of Bolas
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen

// Lands
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Blast Zone
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Badlands

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Damping Sphere
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

[mistercakes]

It isn't the first time a deck like this has gotten a finish, but it's still uncommon, and this top 8 from a 42-player tournament (https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/236539/show/) over the weekend has some recent additions.

// Creatures
4 Orcish Lumberjack
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Mayhem Devil
1 Ramunap Excavator
4 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Greater Gargadon

// Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith

// Instants
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command

// Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library
1 Rhythm of the Wild

// Planeswalkers
1 Domri, Anarch of Bolas
1 Sarkhan Vol
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen

// Lands
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Blast Zone
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Badlands

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Damping Sphere
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

Yep posted above :)

[Scott]

Yep posted above :)

I should probably learn how to read :wink:

[bruizar]

Not ideal with chalice.

I'd be pretty interested in a deck with that free RG guy (modern manamorphose guy) could actually be in a zoo deck.

I agree. There was some talk about chalice and wrenn, but it is not the direction i would take it. My plans outside of lands for wrenn involve a multicolor deck or a lumberjack deck.

[sco0ter]

Are there any "innovations and brews" which use the following core? It's used in Modern:


4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper


I wonder if it's a viable strategy in Legacy for ramp. It obivously competes with Post mana base and Stompy/Sollands mana base.

[Michael Keller]

I still think Didgeridoo in a Karn shell with Serum Powder and the new mulligan rule could be very powerful. I’m always in the minority on that, but I think with the new changeling and Karn the time is now.

[kinda]

I still think Didgeridoo in a Karn shell with Serum Powder and the new mulligan rule could be very powerful. I’m always in the minority on that, but I think with the new changeling and Karn the time is now.

+1.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I still think Didgeridoo in a Karn shell with Serum Powder and the new mulligan rule could be very powerful. I’m always in the minority on that, but I think with the new changeling and Karn the time is now.

What am I missing here?

[Megadeus]

What am I missing here?

How fucking sick Boros Battleshaper is

[pettdan]

Are there any "innovations and brews" which use the following core? It's used in Modern:


4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper


I wonder if it's a viable strategy in Legacy for ramp. It obivously competes with Post mana base and Stompy/Sollands mana base.

Haven't seen it in legacy, maybe Mox Diamond and Cloudpost + Glimmerpost outclass it? Above cards require an enabler, one of which is a 1/1 creature which is very vulnerable. Also Surge doesn't work with Chalice while mox and posts do.

[mistercakes]

just wanted to point out the absurdness of turn 1 lumberjack.

turn 1 land lumberjack.
turn 2 fetch, tap 2 lands, use lumberjack to get titania into play. return fetch to play. sac fetch to get red mana source. suspend gargadon.

you have access to a 5/3, 1/1, 5/5, 5/5, 5/5 and gargadon will start your next turn with 6 counters if you choose to sac.

that's really crazy to put 20 power on the board on turn 2.

i think this deck has huge potential if people decide to actually play it and know how to play it.

Edit: I think if you want Christmasland you could get do something like

Turn 1 lumberjack.
Turn 2 suspend Gargadon, cast veteran explorer. Sac vet, get 2 lands. Cast Titania, get land back, sac fetch to make a token, csst another explorer, sac it to get two more lands.....

I was looking for a way to slam down sarkhan but can't think of it off hand.

Might be possible but would require probably 3 explorer + garg + Titania + lumberjack + sarkhan + 2 lands (one being a fetch). Isn't even enough basics in that version to do it.

[Scott]

Speaking of Mox Diamond/Green Sun's Zenith decks without Life from the Loam, MatsOle took Wrenn and Six in a really interesting direction to get 12th in yesterday's 167-player MTGO Legacy Playoffs. (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30925&iddeck=263588) Possibility for a new archetype. Looking at it, I guess it's Sylvan Plug with Wrenn and Six instead of Choke basically.

// Creatures (10)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Obelisk Spider
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Huntmaster of the Fells

// Instants (3)
3 Abrupt Decay

// Sorceries (4)
4 Green Sun's Zenith

// Enchantments (4)
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Sylvan Library

// Planeswalkers (3)
3 Wrenn and Six

// Artifacts (12)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere

// Lands (24)
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Forest
2 Taiga
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

SB: 1 Centaur Vinecrasher
SB: 1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Collector Ouphe
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Plague Engineer
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[jmlima]

Daretti anyone? 5-0 in a league:



2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp

4 Bloodghast
2 Norin the Wary
4 Priest of Forgotten Gods
2 Rix Maadi Reveler

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
3 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
3 Genesis Chamber
1 Grave Pact
4 Hidden Stockpile
2 Humility

SIDEBOARD
2 Duress
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Karakas
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
3 Wear / Tear
2 Zealous Persecution

[bruizar]

I love this package:

2 Norin the Wary
3 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
3 Genesis Chamber
4 Hidden Stockpile
2 Humility

[sco0ter]

I love this package:

2 Norin the Wary
3 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
3 Genesis Chamber
4 Hidden Stockpile
2 Humility

Norin's only purpose is to combo with Genesis Chamber? Is it that good? It feels like if you only draw one piece, it does nearly nothing and if you have both you get one 1/1 token per turn. Chamber works also for your opponent.
Otherwise I really like that deck!

[bruizar]

Norin's only purpose is to combo with Genesis Chamber? Is it that good? It feels like if you only draw one piece, it does nearly nothing and if you have both you get one 1/1 token per turn. Chamber works also for your opponent.
Otherwise I really like that deck!

I think it is that good. Norin triggers on any spell by any player. That gets out of hand quickly

[sco0ter]

I think it is that good. Norin triggers on any spell by any player. That gets out of hand quickly

But at most once per turn only. Bitterblossom seems better for me, because you only need that one card and have more slots for better cards.

[jmlima]

But at most once per turn only. Bitterblossom seems better for me, because you only need that one card and have more slots for better cards.

I used norin/chamber in modern with WR sisters (this type of thing: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13919&d=282367&f=MO ). If you got it going it got out of hand quickly, with massive life gain added. Having said that, if the opponent removed the sisters, or chamber, the game was finished. Kozilek's Return was also pretty deadly... But the biggest problem is that something with infect or fast combo make life gain and chamber tokens pretty irrelevant. In short, very dependant on what you faced, plenty of things could wreck you easily and it was slow. Amazingly fun to play.

[Scott]

I love this brew that top 8'ed the 44-player AZ Eternal Magic League (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22360&d=351757&f=LE) this weekend. It's also inexpensive by Legacy standards; about $700.

// Creature (15)
4 Arclight Phoenix
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Sire of Insanity

// Sorcery (17)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Buried Alive

// Instant (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb

// Lands (16)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp

// Sideboard
3 Wear / Tear
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Curfew
1 Echoing Truth
1 Engineered Plague
1 Griselbrand
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Massacre

[Scott]

Some brews 5-0'd the last MTGO League (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2019-08-03):

Orim67's list

// Creature (4)
4 Young Pyromancer

// Sorcery (8)
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

// Instant (27)
4 Brainstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Manamorphose
2 Noxious Revival
4 Spell Pierce
4 Thought Scour

// Enchantment (4)
4 Pyromancer Ascension

// Land (17)
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Forked Bolt
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Narset, Parter of Veils
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

youmeandiowa's list

// Creature (3)
2 Painter's Servant
1 Vampire Hexmage

// Sorcery (16)
1 Duress
1 Echo of Eons
3 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize

// Instant (5)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Plunge into Darkness

// Artifact (12)
1 Grindstone
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Enchantment (4)
4 Leyline of the Void

// Land (20)
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Dark Depths
1 Lake of the Dead
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
9 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Painter's Servant
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Echo of Eons
SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Phyrexian Obliterator
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

SB7448's list

// Creature (8)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith

// Sorcery (10)
2 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

// Instant (16)
4 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Stubborn Denial

// Artifact (4)
4 Mishra's Bauble

// Land (18)
1 Breeding Pool
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tarnished Citadel
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Force of Negation
SB: 2 Massacre
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 2 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 1 Veil of Summer

[LOLWut]

1. Painter's Servant/Grindstone
2. Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void
3. Tendrils of Agony
4. Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage/Vampire Hexmage

Only 4 different combo decks in one deck? Don't wimp out on us now, youmeandiowa; add an Auriok Salvagers or something to get 5 in there.

youmeandiowa's list

// Creature (3)
2 Painter's Servant
1 Vampire Hexmage

// Sorcery (16)
1 Duress
1 Echo of Eons
3 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Thoughtseize

// Instant (5)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Plunge into Darkness

// Artifact (12)
1 Grindstone
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

// Enchantment (4)
4 Leyline of the Void

// Land (20)
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Dark Depths
1 Lake of the Dead
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
9 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Painter's Servant
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Echo of Eons
SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Phyrexian Obliterator
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[apple713]

1. Painter's Servant/Grindstone
2. Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void
3. Tendrils of Agony
4. Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage/Vampire Hexmage

Only 4 different combo decks in one deck? Don't wimp out on us now, youmeandiowa; add an Auriok Salvagers or something to get 5 in there.

that kinda makes sense if you cut some of the misc art/enchantments for enlightened tutor. Since he's running so many 1 offs it kinda makes sense.

-1painter's servant
-2-2 helm of obedience
-1something else
+3enlightened tutor
+1Auriok Salvagers

I love this deck in concept. Id have to play it to see if it's actually onto something.

[mistercakes]

i netdecked from a hareruya list and went 2-1-1 in the local. deck seemed okay and would consider making some changes.

lost to turbo depths (misplay game 1, kept a 1 land and brainstorm locked myself game 2)
drew against 4c delver (would have won in game 3, but not enough time)
beat led dredge (2-0)
beat 4c snow deck (2-0)


3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
3 Prismatic Vista
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Arcum’s Astrolabe
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Baleful Strix
2 Dead of Winter
2 Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
4 Force of Will
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Retrofitter Foundry
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Force of Negation


would cut the red, and find room for 2-4 thoughtseize.

would prob cut

2 daretti
1 narset
1 dead of winter
1 urza

i think prob +3 thoughtseize +2 ponder would help a lot. could also consider cutting 1 land for a 3rd ponder, and would move one the tarn to another prismatic vista.