Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies in order to prevent legacy’s death?

[Captain Hammer]

This forum used to be the premier source for all legacy discussion. Magic is more popular than ever, but this site and even the legacy reddit see barely any activity. Is there some other legacy forum people are posting at or is it all deck specific discords now? Or is legacy just dying altogether, thanks to the reserve list.

This happened with vintage. As the prices of vintage staples shot up, first, the premier vintage forum (themanadrain) died and soon after the format as a whole died.

Atleast locally, legacy has seen an uptick thanks to the MPC proxies and the Chinese fakes that finally made legacy accessible (none of us bat an eye about people using fake cards, we are just happy to have more players). Is that not the case everywhere?

Discords are kind of useless in terms of acting as long term repositories of information. And while useful to people that only play one or two decks, they are useless for developing new decks or discussing the format as a whole. The same can be said about reddit and reddit is also much less organized than this. From what I have seen, discords dont see much activity either.

I think the problem is deeper, and it’s the reserve list that is making legacy increasingly inaccessible and slowly killing it. If so, should other local legacy communities be more open to and encouraging of people playing with MPC cards that are clearly not even trying to pass for real cards, just to encourage more players in this wonderful format.

MPC doesnt allow the use of any copyrighted images, so they dont break any laws and there is no way anyone will think the cards are genuine. But all of us locally are totally fine with people using them since this is the only way for legacy to go forwards as long as the reserve list is a thing...

https://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/custom-blank-card.html

Some great proxy designs for MPC... https://www.reddit.com/r/mpcproxies/top?t=all

As you can see from my post history, I mingle with and have dozens of different legacy decks built. My local legacy playgroup being okay with players that use MPC cards that arent even trying to be passed off as real magic cards is the reason why. Its so liberating for everyone to not have to worry about reserve list prices, and being stuck with just one or two decks and just being able to play whatever decks we want.

Eventhough I have playsets of most of the dual lands and legacy staples, it doesnt make sense to play with them now that they are worth thousands of dollars. The cards are safely stored away and I use MPC versions of any card thats worth over a $50. Most everyone in my playgroup does the same now.

[lavafrogg]

This forum used to be the premier source for all legacy discussion. Magic is more popular than ever, but this site and even the legacy reddit see barely any activity. Is there some other legacy forum people are posting at or is it all deck specific discords now? Or is legacy just dying altogether, subsumed by Modern.

Atleast locally, legacy has seen an uptick thanks to the MPC proxies and the Chinese fakes that finally made legacy accessible (none of us bat an eye about people using fake cards, we are just happy to have more players). Is that not the case everywhere?

Discords are kind of useless in terms of acting as long term repositories of information. And while useful to people that only play one or two decks, they are useless for developing new decks or discussing the format as a whole. The same can be said about reddit and reddit is also much less organized than this.

Assuming that legacy is still alive and kicking, I would prefer that this forum finds a way to thrive again but what would that take? Do newer legacy players and people on reddit even know that it exists? Should people talk about this place more at their local card shops?

I don't like the Discord channels, I find that they get a little echo-chamber-y and it is hard to actually move forward. One of the reasons I love this format is that people from all decks will hop into a thread and give opinions and feedback.

Unfortunately, "the kids these days" love their discords as the voice chat makes gaming ie fortnite, LoL, Overwatch etc... the place to chat and discuss things.

[Megadeus]

Legacy has died down here despite the GP in December. Sucks to see. Hopefully when we get closer there maybe will be some demand for the format

[Poron]

Legacy has died down here despite the GP in December. Sucks to see. Hopefully when we get closer there maybe will be some demand for the format

totally agree. I went to standard where it is possible to play a quasi miracle control deck with Settle the Wreckage as Terminus and many good Pws, Azcanta and so on..

that allows you to play much more and normally at a cheaper price

[Dice_Box]

You are not the first to notice (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32957-So-is-this-forum-officially-dead), but yea, it sucks.

[Captain Hammer]

You are not the first to notice (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32957-So-is-this-forum-officially-dead), but yea, it sucks.

I am curious if it is a sign of legacy as a whole dying as a result of the reserve list. Thats what happened to Vintage. First themanadrain forum died and then so did Vintage as a whole.

But legacy has a shiton of cards not legal in modern, where as vintage only has a few cards that are not legal in legacy. With magic being more popular than ever, surely lots of people are discovering old cards only legal in legacy that synergize with their favorite strategy. And legacy isnt that degenrate. Midrange decks and decks of all archeatypes are viable in legacy.

So I have to imagine its mainly the reserve list thats holding the format back. If so, we as legacy players need to embrace and even encourage the use of MPC cards if we dont want our favorite format to meet the same fate as Vintage.

I would like to request that a mod change the title of the thread to “Should we embrace the use of MPC proxies to prevent legacy’s death?”

Is there any good way to approximate how popular legacy is today vs five years ago?

[jmlima]

...
But legacy has a shiton of cards not legal in modern, where as vintage only has a few cards that are not legal in legacy. With magic being more popular than ever, surely lots of people are discovering old cards only legal in legacy that synergize with their favorite strategy. And legacy isnt that degenrate. Midrange decks and decks of all archeatypes are viable in legacy.

So I have to imagine its mainly the reserve list thats holding the format back. If so, we as legacy players need to embrace and even encourage the use of MPC cards if we dont want our favorite format to meet the same fate as Vintage.
...

I can only speak for myself but the only reason I ever played legacy was because of MTGO. There's zero chance of ever playing legacy live since:

a) there's zero legacy play where I live
b) I would never be able to afford a competitive and t1 legacy deck (which I think is largely the reason for a) )

Now, with MTGO going, I linger around here to remind of the good ol' times when I could play legacy. With regards to live play, people that delude themselves that the restricted list is not the cause for the slow asphyxiation of this format are well, wrong.

[thecrav]

11 May 2018: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32957-So-is-this-forum-officially-dead
31 March 2019: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32957-So-is-this-forum-officially-dead

This forum is the latest in a series of casualties that begun in September 1993.

[MGB]

I can only speak for myself but the only reason I ever played legacy was because of MTGO. There's zero chance of ever playing legacy live since:

a) there's zero legacy play where I live
b) I would never be able to afford a competitive and t1 legacy deck (which I think is largely the reason for a) )

Now, with MTGO going, I linger around here to remind of the good ol' times when I could play legacy. With regards to live play, people that delude themselves that the restricted list is not the cause for the slow asphyxiation of this format are well, wrong.

MTGO is going? Where?

[square_two]

Got tired of doing MODO while having zero paper legacy around. Very populous area and ranked highly in the US, but it isn't on a coast or huge metro area. That was the primary reason I moved on to other things and began selling cards (also got married, have baby on the way, moving away from gaming hobbies). Still linger around here and in discord channels, but I haven't played in over a year.

[jmlima]

MTGO is going? Where?

Give it a couple of years. When Arena has got it's own modern format, drafting against other humans and is racing full steam ahead, MTGO is as good as dead. I was shocked with the numbers present in the leagues last time I logged in. Besides, Core 2020 is the first release where they are linking paper to arena which is a sign of things to come. Did you ever see MTGO linked to whatever was happening in paper?...

[Begle1]

I think high-quality proxies are freaking fantastic and wish more players wouldn't feel any shame in using them. I think there should be an official "look the other way" policy at FNM-level tournaments.



I got into Legacy looking at Vintage cards thinking "I'll never be able to afford that", I can imagine how players look at Legacy today thinking "I'll never to be able to afford that". (Even though Modern prices are batshit insane, which is very demonstrative of how popular that format is... But one that I've never really enjoyed.)

It doesn't help that I moved somewhere with only a handful of people to play Legacy with, and they each only have a single deck or two so the metagame gets stale pretty quick. (Put a playset of Faerie Macabre in the sideboard and I'll be alright...)

And then Standard and Draft have been fun, and Commander is a hoot, so Legacy is like this dark art I get to play once every six months or so. I try to look at the top decks and innovations to not get blindsided but I can't invest too much time in it.



And then forums in general are withering on the vine because people would rather be spoon-fed consensus nowadays rather than wade through individual thought and meandering arguments.

[ESG]

I've played in shops that allowed proxies as far back as 2009, and the events were generally fine. Counterfeits, though, are cancer and shouldn't be lumped in with proxies. The intention with counterfeits is deception.

[Lemon]

As someone new to legacy, I think that proxies would be incredibly beneficial. Coming from a different angle entirely, I've found it very difficult to decide on what strategy\deck I want to play. Since none of the stores in my area that I've been to so far allow proxies, I only really get to watch other players online or risk buying cards for a deck I won't enjoy. I truly believe that people would end up buying the real thing if they were allowed to play with proxies. Just look at how people like to foil out their decks.

In addition to that, I think a lot of modern players would look at legacy as a place they could go to to get away from the degenerate decks that are plaguing modern right now. The problem is that, for example, a playset of FoW cost almost the equivalent of half a new Modern Deck, and more than the price of some of mine. If those players could get in and try it out without dishing out that kind of upfront cost, they might find they like it enough for the price tag.

[jmlima]

... If those players could get in and try it out without dishing out that kind of upfront cost, they might find they like it enough for the price tag.

Logically, when this is the cost of a mere 12 cards:

https://i.ibb.co/7RHkKBg/Clipboard01.jpg

[Captain Hammer]

I think high-quality proxies are freaking fantastic and wish more players wouldn't feel any shame in using them. I think there should be an official "look the other way" policy at FNM-level tournaments.


Truth.

I couldn't agree with you more. But I get why some stores might dislike "high-quality" proxies that look like the real thing. However, I see no reason why MPC cards are anything stores/players at FNMs should care about. They're clearly not trying to pass off as genuine. Why not allow them so that legacy can have more players.

I dont think Wizards should care either. Sure these MPC proxy players aren't spending thousands of dollars to buy reserved list dual lands. But these same players are playing magic, and are definitely picking up $5-$10 singles from new sets that slot into their favorite decks. I've spend $200+ on MH's singles and already preordered a few Magic 2020 singles as well for my decks. That's good for both Wizards and for game stores.

If my local community didn't allow me to play with MPC proxies, I wouldn't even be playing Magic right now, would have sold out of the hobby and moved onto something I could actually afford. Sure if I have enough staples to build maybe one or two legacy decks but what fun is that, to just play the same two decks over and over and over again. That's not what Magic was meant to be. And besides, I don't feel running around and playing with $1000 pieces of card board, I used to constantly worry that they would get damaged or stolen by someone whenever I was out of the house.

Being able to play with MPC proxies was a huge boon for all of us locally. We get to play the decks we want, without worry about the price of the cards we are running around with, and play Legacy the way it's meant to be played. And it's the only way Legacy is going to draw in new players into the format.

[bruizar]

This forum used to be the premier source for all legacy discussion. Magic is more popular than ever, but this site and even the legacy reddit see barely any activity. Is there some other legacy forum people are posting at or is it all deck specific discords now? Or is legacy just dying altogether, thanks to the reserve list.

This happened with vintage. As the prices of vintage staples shot up, first, the premier vintage forum (themanadrain) died and soon after the format as a whole died.

Atleast locally, legacy has seen an uptick thanks to the MPC proxies and the Chinese fakes that finally made legacy accessible (none of us bat an eye about people using fake cards, we are just happy to have more players). Is that not the case everywhere?

Discords are kind of useless in terms of acting as long term repositories of information. And while useful to people that only play one or two decks, they are useless for developing new decks or discussing the format as a whole. The same can be said about reddit and reddit is also much less organized than this. From what I have seen, discords dont see much activity either.

I think the problem is deeper, and it’s the reserve list that is making legacy increasingly inaccessible and slowly killing it. If so, should other local legacy communities be more open to and encouraging of people playing with MPC cards that are clearly not even trying to pass for real cards, just to encourage more players in this wonderful format.

MPC doesnt allow the use of any copyrighted images, so they dont break any laws and there is no way anyone will think the cards are genuine. But all of us locally are totally fine with people using them since this is the only way for legacy to go forwards as long as the reserve list is a thing...

https://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/design-your-mtg-tokens.html

Some great proxy designs for MPC... https://www.reddit.com/r/mpcproxies/top?t=all

As you can see from my post history, I mingle with and have dozens of different legacy decks built. My local legacy playgroup being okay with players that use MPC cards that arent even trying to be passed off as real magic cards is the reason why. Its so liberating for everyone to not have to worry about reserve list prices, and being stuck with just one or two decks and just being able to play whatever decks we want.

Eventhough I have playsets of most of the dual lands and legacy staples, it doesnt make sense to play with them now that they are worth thousands of dollars. The cards are safely stored away and I use MPC versions of any card thats worth over a $50. Most everyone in my playgroup does the same now.


I come from themanadrain. Proxies don't help a format. Vintage was replaced by Old School, a format with ZERO proxies and Legacy. Proxies are counterfeits, period

[Captain Hammer]

Proxies don't help a format. Vintage was replaced by Old School, a format with ZERO proxies.

And close to ZERO players. :laugh:

[bruizar]

And close to ZERO players. :laugh:

THat's fine, there's also barely any power to support the format anyway. Besides, I've seen 100+ oldschool events regularly here in Europe. It is bigger than vintage was in the end of it's era.

[Zulabnar]

THat's fine, there's also barely any power to support the format anyway. Besides, I've seen 100+ oldschool events regularly here in Europe. It is bigger than vintage was in the end of it's era.

This seems not in reality

http://tcdecks.net/format.php?format=Vintage%20Old%20School

[Captain Hammer]

This seems not in reality

http://tcdecks.net/format.php?format=Vintage%20Old%20School

Yep. In reality. Most of us Vintage players either left magic altogether or moved over to legacy once Vintage cards became too pricy to be things we should be playing games with. It wasn't a big loss, there are only a handful of cards that are allowed in Vintage but banned in Legacy. Like your link shows, a handful of people stuck around with Vintage and later Old School, but the rest of us that still play Magic sold out of Vintage and now play Legacy.

Once legacy dies, some will move on to Modern (that's probably what Wizards wants) and others will leave Magic altogether. But as for the tens of thousands of Magic cards/strategies and synergies that only exist in Legacy and will never see print into Modern, these cards and decks will be left behind in the dustbin of history.

I dabble with Modern as well. Legacy is A LOT more fun than Modern. And I would be very sad to see it die only because Legacy players cared more about how much someone is willing to spend on expensive pieces of cardboard rather than actually having an accessible format that is welcoming to newcomers.

[Kap'n Cook]

Nedleeds gets banned, forum activity plummets. Not much more to say. He was extremely active in brewing non-blue decks, posting in the pimp thread, and keeping alive the great flame wars of old.

#MakeTheSourceGreatAgain

#FreeNedleeds

[Lemon]

THat's fine, there's also barely any power to support the format anyway. Besides, I've seen 100+ oldschool events regularly here in Europe. It is bigger than vintage was in the end of it's era.

The thing about allowing proxies was to keep the playerbase large so that people can actually play. Saying that proxying to help build the playerbase is a problem and then saying it's ok for the playerbase to be tiny doesn't follow. How many people do you know that can play Old School daily? Or even weekly? Against more than 1 other person?

[kinda]

Nedleeds gets banned, forum activity plummets. Not much more to say. He was extremely active in brewing non-blue decks, posting in the pimp thread, and keeping alive the great flame wars of old.

#MakeTheSourceGreatAgain

#FreeNedleeds

Just free everyone, general amnesty. I'd be excited for more nourishing lich.

[Captain Hammer]

Just free everyone, general amnesty. I'd be excited for more nourishing lich.

I love this idea.

A one time global unbanning of all previous mtgthesource members with over 25 posts (to screen out any spam accounts) would be nice. I'm sure any people permabanned for taking part in a flame war have matured in the past 5-15 years or so.

The mods should also send an automated email to all the unbanned accounts letting them know they are no longer banned (if possible).

[the Thin White Duke]

I've thought for a long time that Wizards should license the rights for making "official" proxies. Let Star City or CF pay for the right to make tourney legal proxies so people can play in sanctioned events. It makes Wotc some cash and let's stores sell cards for a few bucks and more people play. What could go wrong...?

#FreeNedleeds

[Michael Keller]

Wasn’t Legacy supposed to die in like 2009?

[Soldier of Fortune]

The Source might die, but not Legacy. Legacy players never say die!





#freenedleeds

The Pimp thread could use more love.

[Erdvermampfa]

Wasn’t Legacy supposed to die in like 2009?

2009 was the beginning of its end when Goyf was the first staple card that wasn't some odd special printing like Loyal Retainers to reach +30 Euro. Legacy's fate was sealed once people actually started to pay these prices despite being due to obvious manipulative practices (I remember V.Clique to reach 30+ from 7-8 within a few hours in 2011 after a buyout). The people truly responsible for Legacy's future death are going to be the ones who paid those prices and thereby brought in all the hoarders and speculators to ruin the format.

Also on the forum ban debate: I'm surprised that there are actually any bans here since I thought this was one of the most liberal online discussion boards I've been part of.

[Begle1]

I've thought for a long time that Wizards should license the rights for making "official" proxies. Let Star City or CF pay for the right to make tourney legal proxies so people can play in sanctioned events. It makes Wotc some cash and let's stores sell cards for a few bucks and more people play. What could go wrong...?

#FreeNedleeds

Interesting notion, have a "tournament only" print run of cards with special backs or obvious "TOURNAMENT ONLY PROXY" stamps on them? The stated intention being "these allow you to play with expensive cards in a limited, select number of tournaments without risking damage".

Allow the tournament organizer to print the cards, that way Wizards isn't printing them and therefore isn't running afoul of its Reserve List policy? How's that for a loophole? :laugh:

[Megadeus]

Unfortunately I think legacy may be too far gone at this point price wise to ever fully recover. I hope I'm wrong though

#freenedleeds

[non-inflammable]

i posted this more than a year ago; still applies right now:

"If this is really all about playing in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament, then why can't you "rent" a card for a single event?
This would still "move" cards in a $ positive direction for sellers and players can still attend that big event.

In MTGO, you don't own the cards but you own a digital license to the image or some such nonsense.
If it works for MTGO, then WOTC can "lease" me the physical card, too.

WOTC can monetize this now by doing something similar with any licensed card that is ONLY useable for one event.
It CAN even just be a blank card that says "UNDERGROUND SEA" in block letters.
It doesn't violate the RL but still allows players to play in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament."

[Michael Keller]

2009 was the beginning of its end when Goyf was the first staple card that wasn't some odd special printing like Loyal Retainers to reach +30 Euro. Legacy's fate was sealed once people actually started to pay these prices despite being due to obvious manipulative practices (I remember V.Clique to reach 30+ from 7-8 within a few hours in 2011 after a buyout). The people truly responsible for Legacy's future death are going to be the ones who paid those prices and thereby brought in all the hoarders and speculators to ruin the format.

Also on the forum ban debate: I'm surprised that there are actually any bans here since I thought this was one of the most liberal online discussion boards I've been part of.

By that logic, wouldn't the "death" of Legacy be attributed to Star City Games? None of that would be possible without the Open Series that sucked a ridiculous numbers of new players in and gave Legacy more attention than it ever had. People then bought into the format, which eventually caused speculators to buy in and make a profit.

[jmlima]

i posted this more than a year ago; still applies right now:

"If this is really all about playing in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament, then why can't you "rent" a card for a single event?
This would still "move" cards in a $ positive direction for sellers and players can still attend that big event.

In MTGO, you don't own the cards but you own a digital license to the image or some such nonsense.
If it works for MTGO, then WOTC can "lease" me the physical card, too.

WOTC can monetize this now by doing something similar with any licensed card that is ONLY useable for one event.
It CAN even just be a blank card that says "UNDERGROUND SEA" in block letters.
It doesn't violate the RL but still allows players to play in a sanctioned, non-proxy tournament."

Problem with that is the WOTC has a very reduced degree of interest in formats other than standard and limited. They embarked into modern as a way to sell more standard, not because they had any fuzzy feelings about eternal formats. They support eternal formats to the extent that they can say 'sure kid, buy that booster box, after standard you can even use it on format z'.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Problem with that is the WOTC has a very reduced degree of interest in formats other than standard and limited. They embarked into modern as a way to sell more standard, not because they had any fuzzy feelings about eternal formats. They support eternal formats to the extent that they can say 'sure kid, buy that booster box, after standard you can even use it on format z'.
On the other hand they still make a yearly Commander set, and just released modern horizons after years of X master sets. Wizards supports Eternal and non-rotating formats, they just do it with products that can sell. Hard to sell a proxy when they could just revoke the reserve list and sell a reprint.

[Begle1]

On the other hand they still make a yearly Commander set, and just released modern horizons after years of X master sets. Wizards supports Eternal and non-rotating formats, they just do it with products that can sell. Hard to sell a proxy when they could just revoke the reserve list and sell a reprint.

Commander was a huge boon for Wizards, and is responsible for demand on all kinds of bizarre old cards.

Note: I'm not contradicting anything you said, I just feel like taking a step back and realizing, holy crap was EDH a boon for Wizards. I probably know as many commander-only players as I do limited/ standard players.

[kinda]

Commander was a huge boon for Wizards, and is responsible for demand on all kinds of bizarre old cards.

Note: I'm not contradicting anything you said, I just feel like taking a step back and realizing, holy crap was EDH a boon for Wizards. I probably know as many commander-only players as I do limited/ standard players.

So...you’re telling me HasBro focuses on their popular formats/games?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So...you’re telling me HasBro focuses on their popular formats/games?

Fucked up if true.

[Smuggo]

I occasionally play at a London community tournament that allows proxies, but they have to just be printed out paper in front of a basic land or token or whatever. It was quite useful in the early days when my only substantial legacy possession was a playset of FoW as it allowed me to play my deck a bunch and know that I enjoyed the format and would be worth buying volcanic islands.

Never been to a shop-organised event that allowed them though, but I'd be fine with it even though I have spent the money myself, I prefer to just see more people playing.

All this said though, there are still tons of legacy players that show up to every GP just to play in a bunch of side events. It's not the format isn't popular, just that good-sized events seem to be few and far between.

[Bithlord]

Interesting notion, have a "tournament only" print run of cards with special backs or obvious "TOURNAMENT ONLY PROXY" stamps on them? The stated intention being "these allow you to play with expensive cards in a limited, select number of tournaments without risking damage".

Allow the tournament organizer to print the cards, that way Wizards isn't printing them and therefore isn't running afoul of its Reserve List policy? How's that for a loophole? :laugh:

In pipe dream land, WotC would run a Legacy premiere series where players submit decklists ahead of time and get a newly printed copy of their deck with a different (but similar) card back. The deck is not legal for anything other than the one tournament. Then, the player gets to keep the printed deck.

Suddenly, I can play a $5,000 deck in a tournament for, maybe, $100 or $150 and get to keep the deck in proxy form.

I'd be down with that. Certainly would beat playing Burn and/or manaless dredge which are my current decks, due purely to price.

[morgan_coke]

Honestly one of the biggest things hurting Legacy now is that the format has evolved to the point where the viable, Tier 1 decks are:

1. Xerox variations (whole bunch of tempo decks, plus one control deck in miracles)
2. Prison variations
3. Combo variations

Legacy simply isn't that wide open anymore, and while any given tier 2 deck can, and does, take down a tournament occasionally, you're pretty much limited to one of the big three for your deck choices if you want a tier one experience. A lot of players simply don't want to play in a format where that is the tier one mix. Prices definitely contribute to the declining player base, but the changes to the format overall have more to do with it imho. Legacy really is Vintage-lite at this point, and as MTGO has shown, even if the cards are cheap, there's just not that much of an audience for the experience Vintage offers. Legacy is headed in the same direction.

[Matsu]

Honestly one of the biggest things hurting Legacy now is that the format has evolved to the point where the viable, Tier 1 decks are:

1. Xerox variations (whole bunch of tempo decks, plus one control deck in miracles)
2. Prison variations
3. Combo variations

Legacy simply isn't that wide open anymore, and while any given tier 2 deck can, and does, take down a tournament occasionally, you're pretty much limited to one of the big three for your deck choices if you want a tier one experience. A lot of players simply don't want to play in a format where that is the tier one mix. Prices definitely contribute to the declining player base, but the changes to the format overall have more to do with it imho. Legacy really is Vintage-lite at this point, and as MTGO has shown, even if the cards are cheap, there's just not that much of an audience for the experience Vintage offers. Legacy is headed in the same direction.

Agreed. I am really debating selling all my legacy reserve list cards and invest the money to another hobby. Leaving just a couple of cards to have a deck to play once every couple of months.

[Captain Hammer]

In pipe dream land, WotC would run a Legacy premiere series where players submit decklists ahead of time and get a newly printed copy of their deck with a different (but similar) card back. The deck is not legal for anything other than the one tournament. Then, the player gets to keep the printed deck.

Suddenly, I can play a $5,000 deck in a tournament for, maybe, $100 or $150 and get to keep the deck in proxy form.

I'd be down with that. Certainly would beat playing Burn and/or manaless dredge which are my current decks, due purely to price.

As cool as all this is, it's never going to happen. WOTC will never print proxies for us.

But there is zero reason why legacy communities can't allow proxies for their local tournaments. Proxies are dead simple and dirt cheap to print from MPC (no copyrighted images are allowed)... https://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/custom-blank-card.html and there are tons of templates for them available in the reddit I linked to in the OP.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

In pipe dream land, WotC would run a Legacy premiere series where players submit decklists ahead of time and get a newly printed copy of their deck with a different (but similar) card back. The deck is not legal for anything other than the one tournament. Then, the player gets to keep the printed deck.

Suddenly, I can play a $5,000 deck in a tournament for, maybe, $100 or $150 and get to keep the deck in proxy form.

I'd be down with that. Certainly would beat playing Burn and/or manaless dredge which are my current decks, due purely to price.

Why would they do this when they could, for the same cost, just print the cards in the deck itself?

[Zilla]

Just free everyone, general amnesty. I'd be excited for more nourishing lich.
For the record, I unbanned TheInfamousBearAssassin earlier this year, but I never told him. Fuck Nedleeds though. At least IBA's trolling was funny.

[morgan_coke]

For the record, I unbanned TheInfamousBearAssassin earlier this year, but I never told him. Fuck Nedleeds though. At least IBA's trolling was funny.

OMG!! I would love to see Bear posting here again.

[Lemon]

As cool as all this is, it's never going to happen. WOTC will never print proxies for us.

But there is zero reason why legacy communities can't allow proxies for their local tournaments. Proxies are dead simple and dirt cheap to print from MPC (no copyrighted images are allowed)... https://www.makeplayingcards.com/design/custom-blank-card.html and there are tons of templates for them available in the reddit I linked to in the OP.

Can't have your event sanctioned, which means it doesn't count towards a stores WPN score thingy. At least that's what I was told when I asked about proxies at the 4 lgs near me. So I just bit the bullet and bought a budget deck. Can't playtest proxy decks until you know people who play legacy.

(The stores could just look the other way, but I imagine there are some ramifications to doing that)

[Megadeus]

For the record, I unbanned TheInfamousBearAssassin earlier this year, but I never told him. Fuck Nedleeds though. At least IBA's trolling was funny.
#freenedleeds

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Can't have your event sanctioned, which means it doesn't count towards a stores WPN score thingy. At least that's what I was told when I asked about proxies at the 4 lgs near me. So I just bit the bullet and bought a budget deck. Can't playtest proxy decks until you know people who play legacy.

(The stores could just look the other way, but I imagine there are some ramifications to doing that)

Correct, but like who's going to call you out on a high quality proxy? Or even a color printer on card-stock?

[Lemon]

Correct, but like who's going to call you out on a high quality proxy? Or even a color printer on card-stock?


Probably no one. But I drive over an hour to play each week, and am not really interested in testing that. All it takes is one guy.

[Kap'n Cook]

For the record, I unbanned TheInfamousBearAssassin earlier this year, but I never told him. Fuck Nedleeds though. At least IBA's trolling was funny.


#freenedleeds




#FreeNedleeds2019


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32542-What-s-the-story-on-FreeNedLeeds

[Phoenix Ignition]

OMG!! I would love to see Bear posting here again.

I'm interested if he plays Modern and tries to make a new take on that eskimo deck of his. Actually playable snow cards means he would have a lot more things to work with.

[Megadeus]

Correct, but like who's going to call you out on a high quality proxy? Or even a color printer on card-stock?

Nedleeds once spotted a fake Chinese dual that was double sleeved from across the table immediately and called a judge against his opponent and got him a game loss.

[sdematt]

Nedleeds once spotted a fake Chinese dual that was double sleeved from across the table immediately and called a judge against his opponent and got him a game loss.

I've done the same. If I see WB duals across the table, I assume one's struggling to get it together and might have accidentally or on purpose have fakes.
If I see BB duals across the table, I assume they ball and no harm no foul.

[Bithlord]

Why would they do this when they could, for the same cost, just print the cards in the deck itself?

Beats me, other than some misguided adherance ot the reserve list. Maybe they can justify printing promo one time only event cards as not breaking the list.

[non-inflammable]

Maybe they can justify printing promo one time only event cards as not breaking the list.

my suggestion that i posted earlier would be even easier.

just have the normal magic back and leave the front empty for black text.
tournament organizers can "print" with a black and white printer just text; Underground Sea: Tap for B or U

they could even put the date of the event with a disclaimer it's only good for the duration of the tourney.

EDIT: quoting someone under me?

I couldn't care any less, I just want to play Legacy.

i tell people to get a sharpie and whatever fodder was left on the floor from the last pre-release or set release.

[H]

I have a hunch that some people in our little local group have some, but I couldn't care any less, I just want to play Legacy.

[JDK]

We allow proxies for Friday nights and casual play and it helped tremendously to build a local community and to have people try new things. The latter is extremely important for small groups, as it gets boring and stale otherwise. I play with my Tabernacle and just bought a Drop of Honey, but damn, we need new players to account for the ones leaving the format/game.

Our open series is non-proxy only though, to sanction these events and motivate people to invest in Legacy.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nedleeds once spotted a fake Chinese dual that was double sleeved from across the table immediately and called a judge against his opponent and got him a game loss.

Sure he did. Keep this template for Chuck Norris.

[Captain Hammer]

Lots of modern players are very unhappy with the format right now and looking to other eternal formats (Legacy and Pauper) for their magic fix.

We should welcome them in by letting them use proxies for FNM play so that they can make the transition without having to sell their car/house. Have you guys seen how much duals are going for these days?

We should also let them use shock lands as substitute proxies for their respective dual equivalents.

There's always Pauper for people who dislike proxies.

[alvoi]

I don't know, one thing I like about Legacy is that players are really attached to their decks and the format. In Modern it isn't like this, the decks are ugly and players play them just because they win. I'm pretty young (19 yo) but I managed to save money and spend it to build Legacy decks and I have almost 4 completed decks, so if it was possible for me it could be possible for others. I think the only problem is the limited print run of some cards of the first expansions, but for now it shouldn't be a concern since on mkm the card availability is high

[Megadeus]

One of my LGS just approved is to start having a 20 proxy legacy weekly. Weekly legacy has been dead here about a year but here's to hoping the upcoming GP drums up interest

[Captain Hammer]

Legacy is a diverse format with the largest number of viable strategies of any format in magic’s history. Thats the formats appeal. Thats why people are switching from modern to legacy...

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/ca44tj/from_modern_to_legacy/

Why force people to sick to only one deck to experience? That gets boring. Let them us proxies and try out a number of different decks.

Also those trying to buy into legacy now would have to sell their car to afford the dual lands. Not many people would be willing to invest a small fortune to switch from Modern to Legacy. Atleast allow MPC proxies of the lands.

[apple713]

Although i think obvious proxies are ok (such as writing on an official card) or something, i understand wotc’s position and respect it. Also, i dont really want to sit across the table from someone who has a bunch of proxies in their deck as the pictures can be misleading.

Accurate looking proxies are bad for everyone. People will get harmed and it’s really difficult to police. This is one of the reasons wotc is so strict about not sanctioning proxied tournaments as it incentivizes their creation.

People who dont know they are proxies are likely to trade for them at some point and even if “you” would never do that, someone will. If a standard player is trying to get int legacy and he Gets burned for a few hundred dollars by unknowingly trading for fake cards, he probably quits the game all together and wotc loses business.




One of the issues with card prices and tournament attendance are people like me who were once active, trading and attending tournaments, but are now not. Ive gotten older and moved away from the community I grew up with. It is also less appealing to sit in a smelly card shop on a weekend when I have a family who fights for my time and I'm working 60+ hours a week. So the cards i have in my collection are effectively permanently removed from the card pool. 2-3 complete playsets of duals and fetchlands along with countless other reserve list staples. I know there are others like me and this adds up.



Also, Id like to point out that legacy isnt as hard to get into as its made out to be. If you add up the money standard players spend over the course of a year they could probably afford a handful of duals to get in to the format. I feel like they spend more frequently but smaller amounts and they never do the math. 3x booster boxes a year at @ $100 each plus maybe an extra box on something like modern masters $250?

How many drafts do they play in? How many prereleases?

[TsumiBand]

Maybe a more applicable question is whether or not the expectation that players at certain levels even need to bring their own cards is even reasonable? FNM is one thing but like - at a certain point I don't know if it should even be on the player to bring their own cards. When I kept case with competitive players I didn't know anyone who didn't practice with a matrix. You can get gud with a deck without owning a single card.

I wonder how different or how much more inclusive high-level play would be if at a certain REL you could just register a decklist and have it provided by the venue. Could do away with logistical dumbfuckery like deck-checks, cut down on theft, even reduce the need to even ask if proxies are a necessary evil because ultimately you can rely on WotC to provide your 75 at high level events...

I mean - lately I've been following FF:TCG and at this weekend's event there was a dude who turned himself in for running 5 copies of a card in his deck (the max in Final Fantasy is 3 and decks are 50 cards so it's a huge deal). Now the community is up in arms about whether it was intentional or not, whether dude should advance or not, etc etc. And the offender is a relatively new player too, so the question of whether it was a legit mistake by a n00b is being floated - and it sucks if that is all that it is, because now that new player is starting out with a tarnished reputation. Whole thing could have been avoided if an overseeing committee were providing the game pieces.

It isn't that weird, right - how many professional sportsball people provide their own equipment? How often do Texas Hold 'em players bring their own cards to events, probably never? If we just talk high-level play, what makes Magic so special that we're expected to own 100% of the game pieces we intend to use? The further I get from the game, the less sense it makes.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It isn't that weird, right - how many professional sportsball people provide their own equipment? How often do Texas Hold 'em players bring their own cards to events, probably never? If we just talk high-level play, what makes Magic so special that we're expected to own 100% of the game pieces we intend to use? The further I get from the game, the less sense it makes.

All of them?
The only ones who don't are getting them from endorsement deals.

[apple713]

Maybe a more applicable question is whether or not the expectation that players at certain levels even need to bring their own cards is even reasonable? FNM is one thing but like - at a certain point I don't know if it should even be on the player to bring their own cards. When I kept case with competitive players I didn't know anyone who didn't practice with a matrix. You can get gud with a deck without owning a single card.

I wonder how different or how much more inclusive high-level play would be if at a certain REL you could just register a decklist and have it provided by the venue. Could do away with logistical dumbfuckery like deck-checks, cut down on theft, even reduce the need to even ask if proxies are a necessary evil because ultimately you can rely on WotC to provide your 75 at high level events...

So the issue here is that if WOTC provides cards at high level events its presents a conflict of interest because they want to sell cards. If people didn't have to buy cards to compete in an event why would anyone buy them? Sure local events may require them but you still...

Also, how would WOTC be able to provide all of the cards for the events? Would they buy them from the open market? Would they print everything they need? If they printed all these extra cards, do they destroy them all after the tournament? do they require that they are returned? What if someone steals the cards that WOTC lent them? Maybe they do a special tournament printing? Who sleeves all the decks?

The point here is that there are lots of questions that need to be answered. I'm sure they could be figured out but its going to incur an additional cost and players are going to have to pay it.

However, if WOTC was not involved in the process and lets say someone like SCG who has tons of extra fucking cards started "renting" decks for their events that would allow other players to participate at a much more affordable cost. Hell, I wish I could rent out my collection. There is actually a company that does this and it's genius. check them out (https://www.manatraders.com/paper_rents/welcome). They seem to be having issues with their paper rental service at the moment and I dont know that it was ever working right but conceptually it's a good idea.

Wouldn't it be great if players who have extra cards not being used could loan their card out on consignment to a service like this?