reserved list crumbling?

[Humphrey]

no discussion about it yet?

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=4593&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=467003&type=card

[apple713]

There is a pretty significant difference between the two cards that makes them functionally different enough to get around the reserve list.

Lotus field etb tapped and you sacrifice tapped or untapped lands. So on t3 when you play it you will have 2 mana.

Lotus vale requires that the lands sacrificed are untapped because it can tap for 3 mana the turn it etb.

So, under normal conditions lotus vale is faster but does not have hexproof. That trade off is significant.

Although your natural instinct may be to think, who is going to want to play lotus vale in legacy with all of the wastelands running around...it boils down to speed vs protection which is a common tradeoff in mtg.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Only if you think lands like Breeding Pool are also functional reproductions of Tropical Island.

[Humphrey]

Only if you think lands like Breeding Pool are also functional reproductions of Tropical Island.
no but i think field is actually an upgrade and makes legendary duals much more reasonable. which would also fit perfectly into some sort of commander masters
also shocks happened long ago, before they tightened the reserved iirc

[Humphrey]

There is a pretty significant difference between the two cards that makes them functionally different enough to get around the reserve list.

Lotus field etb tapped and you sacrifice tapped or untapped lands.

Lotus vale requires that the lands sacrificed are untapped because it can tap for 3 mana the turn it etb.
So, under normal conditions lotus vale is faster but does not have hexproof. That trade off is significant. vale gets you 3 and field 2+2, whats faster?

Although your natural instinct may be to think, who is going to want to play lotus vale in legacy with all of the wastelands running around...it boils down to speed vs protection which is a common tradeoff in mtg.thats exactly why vale is trash

[apple713]

Idk how you get 2+2???

Just because you prefer protection doesnt mean the speed vale provides is trash. Personally they are both garbage for legacy. What are you going to do, candelabra them?

[bruizar]

4x Scorched Ruins
4x Lotus Vale
4x Lotus Field
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Chrome Mox
4x Blood Sun
4x Serum Powder

Make it happen yo!

What's the most powerful stuff we can cast?

[rufus]

I think that - although they have similarities - the drawbacks on Lotus Vale and Lotus Field are mechanically different enough that they might not fit into the same deck.

Lotus Vale enters untapped, and has the sacrifice clause as a replacement ability and eats untapped lands. Lotus Vale enters tapped, has the sacrifice ability as a trigger, and enters tapped.

That means that Lotus Field can work with untap effects like Amulet of Vigor and Candelabra of Tawnos while Lotus Vale does not, and, on the other hand, Lotus Vale enters untapped, so it's got potential to work in a deck that doesn't run untap effects. I think that Lotus Field is more likely to work in a deck with cards like Karoo.

[Humphrey]

Idk how you get 2+2???

rly? 2 from the field and 2 from the lands you sac

Just because you prefer protection doesnt mean the speed vale provides is trash. Personally they are both garbage for legacy. What are you going to do, candelabra them?
again, what speed? heck in a ld infested meta it might becworth to run field only for the protection

still calling it. legendary duals(hexproofed?) in (commander)masters 2020

[Megadeus]

4x Scorched Ruins
4x Lotus Vale
4x Lotus Field
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Chrome Mox
4x Blood Sun
4x Serum Powder

Make it happen yo!

What's the most powerful stuff we can cast?

Inferno Titans or Eldrazi. I think I'd play a gentlemen's Banefire

[H]

Inferno Titans or Eldrazi. I think I'd play a gentlemen's Banefire

Speaking of Eldrazi, one could run (maybe) a full playset of Eye of Ugins and City of Traitors, then "convert" them into Vales/Fields.

Probably not good, but an idea none-the-less.

[phonics]

Vale (and Scorchced Ruins) have been erratad so the sac is like a cost, but Field has the old wording as an ETB trigger which I assume means with Amulet of Vigor it is a pseudo Lotus.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Vale (and Scorchced Ruins) have been erratad so the sac is like a cost, but Field has the old wording as an ETB trigger which I assume means with Amulet of Vigor it is a pseudo Lotus.

Lands aren't spells and don't have costs, it's a replacement effect, and Amulet of vigor will trigger on your Lotus Field's ETB (giving you one use before the sacrifice trigger).

As for which one is better: Since both are unplayable outside a combo, the answer is "whichever one combos better with your cards"

[rufus]

Vale (and Scorchced Ruins) have been erratad so the sac is like a cost, but Field has the old wording as an ETB trigger which I assume means with Amulet of Vigor it is a pseudo Lotus.

Well, even with amulet, it still costs a land drop and a second land if you have it. So maybe if you're cheating land drops with Second Sunrise or something.

[morgan_coke]

Well, even with amulet, it still costs a land drop and a second land if you have it. So maybe if you're cheating land drops with Second Sunrise or something.

You could run it with Brought Back pretty easily.

[Megadeus]

Vale (and Scorchced Ruins) have been erratad so the sac is like a cost, but Field has the old wording as an ETB trigger which I assume means with Amulet of Vigor it is a pseudo Lotus.
I think the problem is with the way Field is worded, you still have to sacrifice 2 lands regardless. You can get blown out with this sacrifice trigger on the stack they can waste a dual or something and then you have to sac this to its own ability if I'm not mistaken if you don't have 2 other lands to sac

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think the problem is with the way Field is worded, you still have to sacrifice 2 lands regardless. You can get blown out with this sacrifice trigger on the stack they can waste a dual or something and then you have to sac this to its own ability if I'm not mistaken if you don't have 2 other lands to sac

Sometimes, you just gotta end your own turn: Sundial of the Infinite

[phonics]

Lands aren't spells and don't have costs, it's a replacement effect, and Amulet of vigor will trigger on your Lotus Field's ETB (giving you one use before the sacrifice trigger).

As for which one is better: Since both are unplayable outside a combo, the answer is "whichever one combos better with your cards"

I used the term cost loosely to refer to the fact that actions had to be paid (saccing lands) prior to the card entering play. I think Lotus Field's effect is an etb, otherwise wouldnt it be worded like how they erratad cards like Lotus Vale, Mox Diamond and Scortched Ruins? ie.


If Lotus Vale would enter the battlefield, sacrifice two untapped lands instead. If you do, put Lotus Vale onto the battlefield. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.

which is moot since the amulet gives a trigger like you said. It can also be used for a landfall trigger, albeit costly, but its another way the card is functionally different than Vale.


I think the problem is with the way Field is worded, you still have to sacrifice 2 lands regardless. You can get blown out with this sacrifice trigger on the stack they can waste a dual or something and then you have to sac this to its own ability if I'm not mistaken if you don't have 2 other lands to sac

Yeah it would sac to itself (like the original lotus) plus another land if you only had 2 lands in play I think, not saying it is a playable interaction, due to its 'all in' nature it probably is not worth it most of the time over any karoo, but it is something cant be done with the Vale. You could chain Primeval Titans if you wanted or something I dont know.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I used the term cost loosely to refer to the fact that actions had to be paid (saccing lands) prior to the card entering play. I think Lotus Field's effect is an etb, otherwise wouldnt it be worded like how they erratad cards like Lotus Vale, Mox Diamond and Scortched Ruins? ie. Please don't. Te term cost has a very specific meaning in the game, and when talking about niche ways to break cards it's very important to use the terms correctly. Lotus Field is clearly an ETB because it says "When" and Mox Diamond, Lotus Value, and Scotch-guarded ruins are replacement effects because they say "If .. instead".

Yeah it would sac to itself (like the original lotus) plus another land if you only had 2 lands in play I think, not saying it is a playable interaction, due to its 'all in' nature it probably is not worth it most of the time over any karoo, but it is something cant be done with the Vale. You could chain Primeval Titans if you wanted or something I dont know.
Does "original lotus" here mean Lotus Vale? Because Lotus Vale can never be sacrificed to its own ability. If you're sacrificing lands, it's still in the process of entering the battlefield, and therefore isn't present on the battlefield to be sacked. Also, playing a land 'just happens'. No one can respond to it, so no one can respond to Lotus Vale's replacement effect by using wasteland. For example. Meanwhile Lotus Field, as a triggered ability, can be responded to.

[H]

Does "original lotus" here mean Lotus Vale? Because Lotus Vale can never be sacrificed to its own ability. If you're sacrificing lands, it's still in the process of entering the battlefield, and therefore isn't present on the battlefield to be sacked. Also, playing a land 'just happens'. No one can respond to it, so no one can respond to Lotus Vale's replacement effect by using wasteland. For example. Meanwhile Lotus Field, as a triggered ability, can be responded to.

He means Black Lotus. I.e. that in his "case" (that is, you control Amulet) Lotus Field is a Black Lotus that requires you to sacrifice itself (like Black Lotus), plus an additional land.

[FTW]

no but i think field is actually an upgrade and makes legendary duals much more reasonable. which would also fit perfectly into some sort of commander masters

Field is better in some situations and worse in others. Field can be forced to sacrifice it to itself and ETB tapped (slows down your curve), but it can sacrifice lands you've already used and also has hexproof.


also shocks happened long ago, before they tightened the reserved iirc

Shocks were printed in Ravnica block (2005-2006). The Reserved List was created in 1996 (after Chronicles annoyed collectors) and ended with Masques block, with the list finalized in 2002. Long before shocks.

Shocks were designed as a way to reintroduce basic land-typed duals into Extended in a way that was functionally different enough to respect the Reserved List and also powered down enough to be fairer. They only promised no functional reprints or new cards that completely invalidate the old ones. They have printed other cards that are functionally similar but fit into a different niche (e.g. Hypergenesis vs Eureka, despite the fact that Hypergenesis was more competitively viable).

[Megadeus]

Field is better in some situations and worse in others. Field can be forced to sacrifice it to itself and ETB tapped (slows down your curve), but it can sacrifice lands you've already used and also has hexproof.



Shocks were printed in Ravnica block (2005-2006). The Reserved List was created in 1996 (after Chronicles annoyed collectors) and ended with Masques block, with the list finalized in 2002. Long before shocks.

Shocks were designed as a way to reintroduce basic land-typed duals into Extended in a way that was functionally different enough to respect the Reserved List and also powered down enough to be fairer. They only promised no functional reprints or new cards that completely invalidate the old ones. They have printed other cards that are functionally similar but fit into a different niche (e.g. Hypergenesis vs Eureka, despite the fact that Hypergenesis was more competitively viable).
I think he meant that shocks were created before the crack down on the reserve list loopholes. Like the FTV and duel deck foils

[lavafrogg]

I think he meant that shocks were created before the crack down on the reserve list loopholes. Like the FTV and duel deck foils

I think the most recent Modern Masters set shows how Wizards wants to address the Reserved list. They are printing "fixed" versions of older cards that are made to fit into their Modern format. Just like the Field vs Vale example; look at all of the "fixed" cards they have release this set. It shows that they know what they are trying to accomplish and how they want to move forward.

We also just received fetch-able slow cycling dual lands that no one really acknowledges. It is only a matter of time until a "fixed" dual comes out that is a little too aggressive and the reserved list criers will have their day.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

We also just received fetch-able slow cycling dual lands that no one really acknowledges. It is only a matter of time until a "fixed" dual comes out that is a little too aggressive and the reserved list criers will have their day.

Because they're largely unplayable.

[phonics]

I think the most recent Modern Masters set shows how Wizards wants to address the Reserved list. They are printing "fixed" versions of older cards that are made to fit into their Modern format. Just like the Field vs Vale example; look at all of the "fixed" cards they have release this set. It shows that they know what they are trying to accomplish and how they want to move forward.

We also just received fetch-able slow cycling dual lands that no one really acknowledges. It is only a matter of time until a "fixed" dual comes out that is a little too aggressive and the reserved list criers will have their day.

I think they are way more likely to release commander specific duals (cipt unless your commander is in the command zone or something) than snow or legendary duals, that is the only market segment they care about that wants cheaper duals. It allows them to print something that is more or less equivalent where they care (commander) but still inferior to regular duals and useless outside of that specific format.

[Bithlord]

I think they are way more likely to release commander specific duals (cipt unless your commander is in the command zone or something) than snow or legendary duals, that is the only market segment they care about that wants cheaper duals. It allows them to print something that is more or less equivalent where they care (commander) but still inferior to regular duals and useless outside of that specific format.

They have no interest in making cheaper duals for commander. There is an overabbundance of passable dual lands that are cheap that they could put in the decks, but they don't. Instead we get the CIPT lands every single cycle, because "buy better lands" is an easy way to get people to spend money upgrading their deck.

[schweinefettmann]

They’re more likely to complete cycles than print new ones. Those duals from battlebond, I think, that checks for basics... they’re more likely to do enemy colour those duals than make something new, like if you have 4 snow permanents or something weird.

I would love for duals to come down in price, but I doubt it’d ever happen.

Actually, I’d really like to have a play set of workshops. But considering how I can barely afford my legacy deck as it is, I doubt I’ll ever get to even see one!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LOLWut]

I would love for duals to come down in price, but I doubt it’d ever happen.

It depends on the time frame we're talking about, and I don't know what the future trend is, but duals have actually come down quite a bit since their high.

They reached a high in June 2018 and since then:

Badlands has gone from $254 in June 2018 to $194 today
Bayou from $325 to $241
Plateau from $143 to $111
Savannah from $183 to $131
Scrubland from $193 to $140
Taiga from $168 to $139
Tropical Island from $336 to $210
Tundra from $327 to $273
Underground Sea from $699 to $444
Volcanic Island from $497 to $368

Data from "low" prices on MTGStocks

[mistercakes]

i think this was mainly due to the mass speculation that was occurring around that time. cards did overall go up (it was kind of expected for USEA to be around 300-400) then it jumped to 600, and now it's back down somewhere in between.

[Smuggo]

It's just a bit of spiking behaviour in an overall upwards trend, happens in all kinds of markets. But the long-term is that duals will keep on going up with the occasional price spike which you could do well out of if you time it right.

[Mr. Safety]

They reached a high in June 2018 and since then:

The pro tour included legacy in August 2018 with team trio constructed, which likely had a significant impact on dual prices. Ironically that was also when Death's Shadow took off in popularity and allowed players to include copies of Watery Grave alongside Underground Sea.

[MaximumC]

I'm glad someone made a thread about this because I've been tooting this horn for years:

http://themanadrain.com/topic/1473/the-reserve-list-the-reddest-red-herring

In a nutshell, the idea is this: blaming the Reserve List for access to Legacy and other formats is wrong. The Reserve List does not prevent WotC from printing cards that fulfill the same function as reserved cards. It ONLY prevents printing functionally identical cards. What prevents WotC from printing cards that could do a reasonable stand-in for dual lands (for example) is not the RL; it's the fact that such cards are probably a bad design.

On the flip side, it means that if you want WotC to improve access to eternal formats, you advocate for cards that fill the same ROLE as Reserve List cards. Like Force of Negation or Lotus Field.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

In a nutshell, the idea is this: blaming the Reserve List for access to Legacy and other formats is wrong. It's actually right because...

The Reserve List does not prevent WotC from printing cards that fulfill the same function as reserved cards. It ONLY prevents printing functionally identical cards. What prevents WotC from printing cards that could do a reasonable stand-in for dual lands (for example) is not the RL; it's the fact that such cards are probably a bad design. A lot of cards with bad design are very playable. Essential, even.

[Humphrey]

I dont know if duals are bad design or the mana management in general. Indeed it never really made sense why they had basic landtypes, probably because it was a downside back then with all those color hosers.
The main issue with landbases are fetches actually. On one hand they allow for less duals, on the other hand they render every nonbasictype dual useless. I wish theyd get banned. The interaction with Brainstorm is just icing on the poisoned cake.

Either way WotC is unwilling to help legacy anyway and thats why i abandonded the competitive game years ago. Vote with your wallet.

[morgan_coke]

I genuinely hope fetches never get introduced on Arena. Then we'd have an eternal format with actually interesting color and design choices for manabases.

[H]

I genuinely hope fetches never get introduced on Arena. Then we'd have an eternal format with actually interesting color and design choices for manabases.

I think there is a fair chance that they are at least looking at something like that, considering they have asked about alternatives (https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1135957681854865408).

Keep in mind though, it would not be an "Eternal" format, it would be a non-rotating format, like Modern.

[MaximumC]

I think you all are proving my point. That is to say, the Reprint Policy itself doesn't actually stop Wizards from printing cards that would broaden access into Legacy and Vintage; it's just that they are reluctant to do that because those formats include a heck of a lot of cards that are pretty badly designed. Or more charitably, they are Magic's "rough draft."

Basic land types make a lot of sense and it's hard to imagine the game without them. The eternal formats we love are largely defined by Magic's rogue's gallery of worst mistakes. I totally agree that the original duals and invasion fetches were badly designed. You can see Richard's idea, that giving two colors was both an upside and a downside, but he just didn't understand how unbalanced those two sides were. And, like you all say, the mistakes did not stop there. Wasteland, Back to Basics, and buddies made a good argument for the OG dual lands having a downside... but instead of beefing up this side of the scale, they printed Invasion fetches and screwed it up. In this ecosystem, they are not willing to print cards that are as good as the OG duals. They'll come close, like the typed duals from Amonket, Return to Zendikar, and Ravnica, but they're not willing to reprint cards as universally useful as the broken originals.

The big takeaway from this is that online personalities (who shall remain nameless) should not whine about the Reserve List all the time. It's not the problem. It can be printed around.


I think there is a fair chance that they are at least looking at something like that, considering they have asked about alternatives (https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1135957681854865408).

Keep in mind though, it would not be an "Eternal" format, it would be a non-rotating format, like Modern.

Well, there is always Frontier or whatever they're calling the new possible non-rotating replacement for Extended.

In retrospect, the OG duals probably should have been more like the more tame modern counterparts. Fetchlands should have been Prismatic Vista and the Mirage fetches only. I think that would have not materially made eternal different but would allow them now to print better entry points into the format.

[Smuggo]

Surely part of the joy of legacy is that you get to play with all the most broken and powerful old cards that you don't really get to play anywhere else?

That's why I like it anyway.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think you all are proving my point. That is to say, the Reprint Policy itself doesn't actually stop Wizards from printing cards that would broaden access into Legacy and Vintage; it's just that they are reluctant to do that because those formats include a heck of a lot of cards that are pretty badly designed. Or more charitably, they are Magic's "rough draft."
OK, and what are the consequences of this? If they don't want to print the next Tabernacle or whatever, the card you have to play is.... and that card is on the....

[JDK]

Like Force of Negation or Lotus Field.
Ah, yes. Timmy could finally afford playing competitive Legacy decks, when they printed those cards. /sarcasm


I think you all are proving my point.
You seem to be a case of "confirmation bias". XD

So your argument is "It can be printed around.". Ok. Is design space unlimited? Would those new alternatives be strictly better? Would they be balanced? If not, your whole point is irrelevant and the Reserved List is a huge part of the problem.