Dark Depth-Hogaak

[adrieng]

This deck is based on the dark depth combo and the 8/8 trample Hogaak delve inclusion.

Here is Dnsolver list, which is somehow the "reference" and based on my first iteration of the deck but with an improved mabase :


3 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Satyr Wayfinder
2 Stitcher's Supplier
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation
4 Lotus Petal
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Khalni Garden
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland


1 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Vigor
3 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library



He changed a bit from first list with the adoption of lotus petal instead of mox diamond and the gsz package karakas main for mirror


// 61 Maindeck
// 3 Artifact
3 Mox Diamond

// 20 Creature
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dryad Arbor

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 26 Land
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Khalni Garden
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland

// 8 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Sylvan Safekeeper

// 11 Instant
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Assassin's Trophy
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction

// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas





It does need the mox diamond ! entomb was not good enough.

testing darkblast cause there are a lot of strix


// 60 Maindeck
// 6 Artifact
3 Pithing Needle
3 Mox Diamond

// 16 Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Satyr Wayfinder

// 7 Instant
4 Crop Rotation
3 Darkblast

// 27 Land
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Blooming Marsh
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Mana Confluence
3 Khalni Garden

// 4 Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Enchantment
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void

// 13 Instant
SB: 2 Return to Nature
SB: 3 Force of Vigor
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Veil of Summer
SB: 2 Extirpate

[mistercakes]

can you post some vids? sounds like a fun idea, but i'm a little skeptical.

[Mr. Safety]

Some questions that have been rolling around in my head since you posted it in the Turbo thread:

1) Aren't Delver matchups favorable already? It makes sense to perform well against those decks even with a traditional Depths list.
2) Is the susceptibility to Wasteland and graveyard hate worth splashing in 12 slots of graveyard synergy? Reanimator Depths is already a deck with a more resilient mana-base and a more powerful graveyard plan.
3) How does this version shore up traditional weaknesses of Depths? Does it improve the Miracles/D&T/Moon Stompy matchups?
4) Is it targeted towards a specific metagame? Dredge goes in/out of favor depending on the expected metagame, as does Reanimator. I could see a specific metagame where having a surprise graveyard strategy to fall back on would be strong if the Depths plan runs into a bad matchup.

I think the hybrid factor is very cool, I've done it myself with Tarmogoyfs in the sideboard before. Some folks have tried Gurmag Anglers. I think you're going for a similar, but more powerful alternative graveyard plan. It gives up some percentage points due to the lack of maindeck Pithing Needles, but that seems reasonable if Wasteland isn't as prevalent (and you are now playing some Loams in the list.)

[adrieng]

People alwasy claim to have a good delver matchup while in reality with wrenn, a well timed bounce or wasteland, delver can do the classic stuff.

This list destroys delver, i played it in league at least 8 match and i lost maybe one game or two out of the 2/3 *8 match, including the new list of delver
with wrenn and dreadhorde arcanist.

While temur doesn't go for 2 crop and one karakas in side they don't really stand a chance.

This deck is less suceptible to graveyard hate than classic list cause it has multiple game plans, you need to pass 2-3 surgicals to win.

Surgical is not bad in the matchup, but it is clearly not a card that the deck fear too much.

You have multiple cabal, to fight through surgical, that you can find pretty easily, you have the depth plan and the hogaak plan, you have sideboarded faerie that protec you from opponents surgical ans snappy

in an uncounterble manner, what do you want more ?

Reanimator depth is hot garbagge, it does nor the depth plan well, nor the reanimator plan well, this does both the stuff in a better manner, cause all your cards create value.

You are talking about tarmogoyf in depth which is not at all what this deck does, just test the deck man then we can talk open your cockatrice stuff if you don't have an mtgo account and play the deck against opponent when

you'll have played 10-20 games against good deck, you'll see the power of the deck and then you can come back and talk about it. There is no point to argue with someone which didn't test things, and just critics without practicing.

Magic is not just theory game, you need concret stuff to see where you go and if things works properly.

[Mr. Safety]

Man this deck is broken, old depth was just ok, this is tier one.

People alwasy claim to have a good delver matchup while in reality with wrenn, a well timed bounce or wasteland, delver can do the classic stuff.

This list destroys delver, i played it in league at least 8 match and i lost maybe one game or two out of the 2/3 *8 match, including the new list of delver
with wrenn and dreadhorde arcanist.

While temur doesn't go for 2 crop and one karakas in side they don't really stand a chance.

This deck is less suceptible to graveyard hate than classic list cause it has multiple game plans, you need to pass 2-3 surgicals to win.

Surgical is not bad in the matchup, but it is clearly not a card that the deck fear too much.

You have multiple cabal, to fight through surgical, that you can find pretty easily, you have the depth plan and the hogaak plan, you have sideboarded faerie that protec you from opponents surgical ans snappy

in an uncounterble manner, what do you want more ?

Reanimator depth is hot garbagge, it does nor the depth plan well, nor the reanimator plan well, this does both the stuff in a better manner, cause all your cards create value.

You are talking about tarmogoyf in depth which is not at all what this deck does, just test the deck man then we can talk open your cockatrice stuff if you don't have an mtgo account and play the deck against opponent when

you'll have played 10-20 games against good deck, you'll see the power of the deck and then you can come back and talk about it. There is no point to argue with someone which didn't test things, and just critics without practicing.

Magic is not just theory game, you need concret stuff to see where you go and if things works properly.

I have used Magic Workstation in the past, I haven't had any luck making Cockatrice work. I can proxy up a list and pit it against a gauntlet, it's what I've done in the past with other tests.

Sorry I have seemed so difficult; I genuinely want to know the answers to those questions. I'll just have to test it myself, as you suggest. :wink:

[H]

Even in some very limited testing vs. a bot, multiple Karakas are a huge hassle.

But this deck works better than it seemingly looks on paper. I did swap a Loam and a Peatland for two Mox Diamonds and, while this likely isn't "correct," they do make for even more explosive openings.

[thefreakaccident]

Is there enough to feed Hogaak?

[Pittplayer]

Is this April 1st? The entire thread is full of hilariously great info. Board in FOUR force of vigors vs storm? Righttt. No way at all to interact with creatures? Righttt. One loam in a depths deck that want to bin lands? Righttt.

[adrieng]

Is this April 1st? The entire thread is full of hilariously great info. Board in FOUR force of vigors vs storm? Righttt. No way at all to interact with creatures? Righttt. One loam in a depths deck that want to bin lands? Righttt.

Yeah it seems you never played the storm matchup, you'ld better shut your mouth before criticizing and test the stuff, you never played that matchup it seems good storm player always cast there led and petal chrome mox even if they don't go off in the turn to avoid them to be discarded.
That's the way to go when you know your opponent doesn't have any counters to interact with you.

I beat the 3 last stom players i faced in league, so i know what I am talking about and clearly force of vigor was one of the best card to intercat with them.

EDIT : the storm matchup might not be that good, i did some more testing and lost some match, so i might have to do more testing to see if it is ok or not [particularly the BW version which is harder to hate and faster cause of echo of eons] and a better version i think

What's the point to interact with others creatures when you can just race them, there is no aggro deck i know which can race a turn 2 8/8 trample or 20/20 flying dude, and if you get the safekeeper there is no way they are winning. Yeah loam is bad in this deck, even one off might be not the way to go.

[mistercakes]

Let's just hold off on here until your 5-0 is posted. Would love to see some kind of capture as well.

You don't have to come across as so aggressive on these forums.

[adrieng]

You don't have to come across as so aggressive on these forums.


Is this April 1st? The entire thread is full of hilariously great info

Feel sorry to reply so aggresively, but his post was also aggressive, telling is it first april and so. Let's talk about this deck and how to improve it.

fetch manabase might also be a way to go to feed your grave, lot of options are available.

I still tested the deck less than one week and mostly against delver decks, so don't know yet if it will break things, [but it looked so after my first 5 leagues] and how it behave agaisnt others decks.

That for sure the land matchup is terrible, i lost the three one i faced, deaht and taxes is ok beat one lost one.

Miracle is ok, some safekeeper main shld improve it.

[FTW]

Is this April 1st? The entire thread is full of hilariously great info. Board in FOUR force of vigors vs storm? Righttt.

4 Force of Vigor + 10 discard spells.

TEN.

4 Therapy + 3 Inquisition + 3 Thoughtseize. Therapy flashes back too.

Discard does most of the work. They may play around that by playing out artifacts from hand, and Force of Vigor punishes them for that. It doesn't seem that bad a strategy. If you 1-for-1 their hand and 2-for-2 mana rocks, Storm doesn't have enough resources to go off.



No way at all to interact with creatures? Righttt.

Storm and TurboDepths barely have a way to either. Why does combo care about 2/xs?

I'd like to see some videos, but an 18-2 record in 4 straight leagues is something to take note of.

[CptHaddock]

What an insane win rate! We needed a UW Tempo style thread for the modern era.

[Mr. Safety]

4 Force of Vigor + 10 discard spells.

TEN.

4 Therapy + 3 Inquisition + 3 Thoughtseize. Therapy flashes back too.

Discard does most of the work. They may play around that by playing out artifacts from hand, and Force of Vigor punishes them for that. It doesn't seem that bad a strategy. If you 1-for-1 their hand and 2-for-2 mana rocks, Storm doesn't have enough resources to go off.

I was thinking the same thing, that's a boat-load of discard, and 4 of them are Cabal Therapy. Few decks can handle even one well-played Therapy, getting hit with other discard plus Therapy? Murder in the 3rd degree to decks like storm. This version, as with his older Turbo depths version, plays a full set of Khalni Garden to feed the Therapies.

I do feel that the deck likely benefits from +4 Verdant Catacombs and +1-3 Bayou. Having extra lands to eat to pay for Hogaak and make Reclaimer a 3/4 seems like a low cost with a net positive payoff.

[Pittplayer]

4 Force of Vigor + 10 discard spells.

TEN.

4 Therapy + 3 Inquisition + 3 Thoughtseize. Therapy flashes back too.

Discard does most of the work. They may play around that by playing out artifacts from hand, and Force of Vigor punishes them for that. It doesn't seem that bad a strategy. If you 1-for-1 their hand and 2-for-2 mana rocks, Storm doesn't have enough resources to go off.




Storm and TurboDepths barely have a way to either. Why does combo care about 2/xs?

I'd like to see some videos, but an 18-2 record in 4 straight leagues is something to take note of.

TEN DISCARD SPELLS OH NO! Vs a deck that runs Past in Flames.... Anyone who has run a discard based deck can tell you, they lose to better top decks. Also, brainstorm. Also, infernal tutor. And combo decks don't really need that much interaction with creatures, because they plan on trying to combo by turn 3, on a regular basis. This deck is slow af with no reliable way to speed out a win. Please keep going though, this whole thread is hilarious! Better get ready to ban some cards because of this deck LOLOLOLOLOL

[Mr. Safety]

TEN DISCARD SPELLS OH NO! Vs a deck that runs Past in Flames.... Anyone who has run a discard based deck can tell you, they lose to better top decks. Also, brainstorm. Also, infernal tutor. And combo decks don't really need that much interaction with creatures, because they plan on trying to combo by turn 3, on a regular basis. This deck is slow af with no reliable way to speed out a win. Please keep going though, this whole thread is hilarious! Better get ready to ban some cards because of this deck LOLOLOLOLOL

To be fair, all versions of Turbo Depths play Crop Rotation >>> Bojuka Bog. Discard into Crop Rotation buys you a ton of turns against storm. The interaction is early and cheap, meaning a little hiccup like that can swing the matchup in Depths' favor. I'm not saying the deck is busted, I'm skeptical as well, but I feel a fair discussion is warranted.

[sco0ter]

This deck looks really interesting.

I have only concerns about a Chalice of the Void opening against your 21 1-drops.

Is Khalni Garden really worth it?

I'd also prefer Fetchlands to feed Hogaak and Reclaimer.

[FTW]

TEN DISCARD SPELLS OH NO! Vs a deck that runs Past in Flames....

Multiple Crop Rotation/Reclaimer into Bojuka Bog, but sure...

It's also hard to cast 4-mana spells or optimize Infernal Tutor when you don't have mana rocks, which is a good argument in favor of Force of Vigor.


Anyone who has run a discard based deck can tell you, they lose to better top decks.

Those are discard-based attrition decks with slow clocks. This is a combo deck with redundant ways to go off and tutors. The clock's faster than most discard-based decks. Discard + clock does beat storm.

I'm not saying this is the greatest thing since Hulk Flash, just that it does seem more viable than it looks at first glance, presents a legitimate game plan and warrants discussion. His league record is impressive. A video would be nice to see how it plays out, if those wins were just bad luck for the opponents.

But please keep talking like a toddler and throwing a tantrum on the internet while the rest of us discuss Magic.

RE: OP Do you have any streams of your league wins? Any tournament reports?

[chunderbucket]

I'm gonna go ahead and trust the only person who actually playtested the deck, rather than people who spend all day theorycrafting.

Re: the decklist, can't it fit a Karakas? Maybe trim a Khalni Garden for it?

[adrieng]

yeah maybe a karakas in side, alos i tested a bit the grixis control matchup and strix is way more annoying for this deck than for classic depth, cause hoogak dies to them.

so yeah i might have faced good matchups a lot aka the delver deck that this deck crushes.

As said before i have only one week of testing, and i might have felt overconfidant about the deck because of the good results i had on mtgo on five leagues.

jax tested the deck a bit and went 3 times 4-1 and one 0-2 and he feel that the deck is viable but might not be better than classic bug depth. So don't know might be a metagame deck if you expect lot of delver decks.

[FTW]

jax tested the deck a bit and went 3 times 4-1 and one 0-2 and he feel that the deck is viable but might not be better than classic bug depth. So don't know might be a metagame deck if you expect lot of delver decks.

How do your matchups differ from BUG depths? Better vs Delver, worse vs Grixis Control? What else?

[Mr. Safety]

yeah maybe a karakas in side, alos i tested a bit the grixis control matchup and strix is way more annoying for this deck than for classic depth, cause hoogak dies to them.

so yeah i might have faced good matchups a lot aka the delver deck that this deck crushes.

As said before i have only one week of testing, and i might have felt overconfidant about the deck because of the good results i had on mtgo on five leagues.

jax tested the deck a bit and went 3 times 4-1 and one 0-2 and he feel that the deck is viable but might not be better than classic bug depth. So don't know might be a metagame deck if you expect lot of delver decks.

Even if all you've done is pinpoint a good spot in the metagame to exploit, kudos on you. Having variations on a deck is handy in a format as wide as legacy.

[Jax-]

How do your matchups differ from BUG depths? Better vs Delver, worse vs Grixis Control? What else?

Delver is "better", I don't think that its straight better, its just easier. Like the whole beatdown plan is crazy good vs Delver, Reclaimer can race Delver and Hogaak is just too much for them.

I lost to Miracles, 2x BR Reanimator, Maverick and Lands.

BR just had the nuts all the games, I dont think that it is a bad matchup, more like 50-50.
Miracles was close, but I think we need something here.
Maverick and Lands are just very hard matchups for all the variants and the games were pretty close.

Delver and 3C/4C Control are the matchups that you completely crush with this deck. You have a fast clock, edict protection, dont really care about wastelands, hymn + surgical does very little to stop you.

While I think that all the variants have a good matchups vs those decks, this one is just easy mode.

I think the deck can be tuned a little bit and improved, its a fine (and fun) alternative to the slow version. Its not like it is the best deck ever, its just a deck that plays 4x Depths 4x Stage 4x Hexmage and obviously its good.

I tried 2 Dread of Night in the sideboard vs DnT and it was really good in this version (usually its a really bad card). It wasnt enough vs Maverick tho.

I played the mirror 3 times and the Hogaak part of the deck was really bad.

You can probably include a Life From the Loam + Wasteland package but the space is tight.

[walked]

So I think there's something here. I fired it up and was able to go 6-1 in the matches I played.

I think there's a LOT of room for optimization here, but the general gist is solid. Elvish Reclaimer is surprisingly good.

edit: Tight on time so I cant go deep on thoughts. I do think a playset of Verdant Catacombs is correct if nothing else. I'm not sure if Loam belongs or not yet; I'd like to try a playset to see how it goes.

[FTW]

I tested this a bit. It can be crazy explosive.

I found the manabase shaky and got wrecked by multiple Wastelands. Without budget limits some Verdant Catacombs, Bayous, and 1 of each basic seem better than any copies of Blooming Marsh. Some Khalni Gardens and Peatbogs could be cut to make room. They're good utility but the numbers of each seem too high relative to the need for stable colored mana sources through disruption. Fetches seem really good with Hogaak and Reclaimer. Marsh ETB tapped at least once for me, which was once too many when Bayou is a card.

Satyr Wayfinder felt like the weakest nonland slot, but maybe it pays off in grindy games to feed Hogaak. 2 mana just felt like a lot.

I think Plains in general is a really bad matchup for this deck, like any Depths deck (StP, Terminus, Council's Judgment, Karakas), and unfortunately all those cards kill the Hogaak plan too! Both plans are weak to many of the same answers, which isn't great for a plan B. I just had to aggressively target those cards with discard/ Needle. UW control with Snapcasters and Brainstorm made that challenging, they could play around discard too easily. Got wrecked hard by Miracles. Other Uxx good stuff rolls over more. I wonder if there's something we can do to shore up the Plains matchup.

I managed to 2-1 a D&T through Wastes, Ports and Thalia in all 3 games by next levelling them: baiting Wastelands only to respond with Crop Rotation, Force of Vigor on Vial & equipment midcombat to eat attackers, and responding to double Port with upkeep Elvish Reclaimer/Crop Rotation or just casting Hogaak for 0 mana. The matchup seems terrible overall, but maybe less bad than Tundra.

I don't know if this deck needs SB anti-aggro cards. Other than T1 Delver, random 2/xs presented a slow clock. We also have chump blockers, 1-mana 3/4s, and free 8/8s. Even staring down hatebear beatdown I felt much more concerned about "can I combo off through disruption" than "will I die to these dorks" and wanted to board in anti-hate more than creature removal.

Tech: avoid revealing Hogaak G1 if you can reasonably threaten Marit Lage. They don't board in grave hate, which makes Hogaak much better G2.

[sco0ter]

They are probably too bad, but are any of the following cards worth discussing for this deck?


Grapple with the Past
Grim Discovery
Tilling Treefolk
Stoic Builder
Mulch
Tracker's Instinct
Commune with the Gods
Gather the Pack
Grisly Salvage


Btw.: What happened to Winding Way? It's no longer in the deck, but still mentioned in the SB plans.

[adrieng]

Btw.: What happened to Winding Way? It's no longer in the deck, but still mentioned in the SB plans.

in first list i tryed gathered the pack then finding way, but they have been cutted for more disruption and safekeeper joined the team.

As said by previous players, swords and karakas are the main problem of the deck, so a playset of safekeepers and some needles in side might be able to make these matchup mannageable.

Yeah more problematic matchups are lands, maverick, then miracle.

[Megadeus]

Not of this World both Lage and Hogaak. It's maybe a too that can help against plows

[adrieng]

safekeeper is just a better card for this deck cause it has more synergie, help casting the hogaak you can even sac lands for delve and therapy flashback.

[walked]

So I did some playtesting with my playtest group over the last day or so. Running a gauntlet of various stuff (trying to be as meta representative as possible).

So far, in testing: 15-2; I think this is likely a fluke in terms of percentage, but does show there's some potential to be had here. Losses to maverick and elves (with them hitting a very quick combo both games).

Changes I made:
-2 Satyr Wayfinder
-4 Blooming Marsh
-2 Khalni Garden
-1 Nuturing Peatland

+2 Mox Diamond
+4 Verdant Cataboms
+1 Swamp
+1 Forest
+1 Bayou

Main reasons being additional GY fuel (between diamond and fetches) for Hogaak and Elvish Reclaimer; faster starts, etc. Generally has been good; and Wayfinder tends to be too slow unless a REALLY grindy game.

I still wish there was a good way to recur from the GY; but I'm not sure what that would look like besides loam; and I think that might be too slow. Will be the next thing I test, though.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't mean to be reductionist, but is this Hogaak inclusion just 'leveling up' on the previous Gurmag Angler/grindy plan? It was popular about 6 months ago. It's the whole 'divide and conquer' plan, kind of like Thopter/Sword/Depths in old extended: deal with Depths? Die to thopters. Deal with Thopters? Die to Marit lage.

I think in this particular deck, Elvish Reclaimer will prove to be better than Deathrite Shaman, seriously. Lots of synergies with the land tutoring and the 3/4 body for the alternative beatdown plan seems very good. It's essentially mini-KotR.

[walked]

I don't mean to be reductionist, but is this Hogaak inclusion just 'leveling up' on the previous Gurmag Angler/grindy plan? It was popular about 6 months ago. It's the whole 'divide and conquer' plan, kind of like Thopter/Sword/Depths in old extended: deal with Depths? Die to thopters. Deal with Thopters? Die to Marit lage.

I think in this particular deck, Elvish Reclaimer will prove to be better than Deathrite Shaman, seriously. Lots of synergies with the land tutoring and the 3/4 body for the alternative beatdown plan seems very good. It's essentially mini-KotR.

I dont think this is offbase at all. But it's much more explosive than the previous variants and can recur Hogaak as a secondary threat. The fact that him getting countered is a minor setback is a big deal to the grinding pattern.

Still not sure how I feel overall, but generally favorable.

[adrieng]

fauna shamn might be a card to test, i know it is slow but it might fetch stuff hogaak safekeeper stitcher vampire.

It is a card i need to test

yeah tested a bit that's too slow

[jfrantz4]

I hope this isn't the wrong place to ask, but can any of you give me a link to the Depths discord? I know it exists, but the only link I could find online is a dead link.

On a different note: how do you think this deck does against other combo decks such as Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and Storm?

Very interested in this list and might try it at some paper weeklies soon.

[adrieng]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32196-Discord-Servers


it is lands
go to the depth section

[jfrantz4]

Much appreciated!

[FTW]

Elvish Reclaimer is amazing and this deck uses it optimally for all sorts of value. Crop Rotations 5-infinity (you can transmute any 2 lands into Marit Lage), graveyard hate (Bojuka), protection (Sejiri), card draw (Peatland), LD (Wasteland), chump blockers (Garden), Hogaak fuel, or just beatdown. This card is a huge boon to Depths strategies.



Changes I made:
-2 Satyr Wayfinder
-4 Blooming Marsh
-2 Khalni Garden
-1 Nuturing Peatland

+2 Mox Diamond
+4 Verdant Cataboms
+1 Swamp
+1 Forest
+1 Bayou


I really like these changes. Consistent with my impressions testing the deck.

Loam does seem slow. I really like the multiple Sylvan Library, getting you cards at fast tempo.

Fauna Shaman seems too slow too.

[mcfarland]

Been testing this a bunch, and think it has a ton of potential.

-1 Satyr (now down to a single copy)
+1 Dryad Arbor

...has been a huge improvement for me. The ability to fetch a green creature with Verdant for convoke is really, really important.

[FTW]

More testing confirms this rolls over most blue decks (except UW control) and performs well against tier 1.5 and worse combo decks. The heavy disruption package + fast clock get it done. I've racked up a few turn 3 wins now backed by discard.

I'm still skeptical about beating a good ANT/TES or BR Reanimator player, but we do have a lot of tools to help those matches.

Very happy with the switch to Verdant Catacombs and friends. I don't miss the extra Khalni Gardens. The deck had too many ETB tapped monocolored lands before (6 total, plus colorless Stages, manaless Depths...). There were too many lands that don't produce either G or B the turn you play them. I've had to mull a lot of 2-land and 3-land hands due to lack of useable mana. A 5th fetch might be good too.

Edit: While StP is a problem, the decks that run it also have slow clocks (especially with Force to kill equipment) so I find gaining 20-40 life actually buys us a lot of time to find more gas. Sylvan Library and the tutors play a big role here in rebuilding.

[Jon]

Hogaak is an avatar, Marit Lage is an avatar. Name Avatar with Steely Resolve. Solve plows + Karakas issue.

Somebody pay me.

[adrieng]

steely resolve is a bad card, you can't give protection with sejirii steppe to avoid bloquers, and death and taxes will just flickerwisp that and karakas your dude.

That what happened before in classic dark depth stuff, i didn't test the card in this particular version, but i don't think it is good enough

[Soulfly77]

To begin, congratulations to you Adrien for defending your pack.

Here it is:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2089183#paper

I have a question on your list, why do you keep blooming Marsh vs Bayou ?
Budget restrictions ?

Thanks for this thread, i’m following you since the beginning of this «*story*» and thank you to all that have tested the pack and share their thoughts.

[adrieng]

I have a question on your list, why do you keep blooming Marsh vs Bayou ?
Budget restrictions ?

yeah that's mainly for budget restriction but it can also avoid some random submerge sometimes.

My list wasn't published on mtgo while i 5-0 three times last week don't know.

I need to build a better side though to beat lands miracle death and taxes and maverick, and somehow storm which are the three four majors concern of the deck

[filln]

steely resolve is a bad card, you can't give protection with sejirii steppe to avoid bloquers, and death and taxes will just flickerwisp that and karakas your dude.

That what happened before in classic dark depth stuff, i didn't test the card in this particular version, but i don't think it is good enough

At least Hogaak has trample. Steely Resolve was a bad card previously because a Mother of Runes combined with a blocker could hold off Marit Lage forever if you couldn't Sejiri Steppe past it.

[adrieng]

At least Hogaak has trample. Steely Resolve was a bad card previously because a Mother of Runes combined with a blocker could hold off Marit Lage forever if you couldn't Sejiri Steppe past it.

yeah the card doesn't look terrible on paper, but when i tested the card though it was long time ago when miracle was there with top, it was not a good card, although I was playing library in my versions so miracle was entering his disenchant

effects after side. It was bad. But I am open to hear about how your testing goes, I don't think I am gone test that. As far as I am concerned, I prefer playing spellbombs main, which are very good in a wide open meta,

particularly against miracle shutting snappies effects is often damn good. Swords to plownshares can be often discarded, when they are not hidding them with bs, and spellbombs takes care of flashbacks effects.

It is also good against temur (wrenn/goose), against ur (dreadhorde arcanist), against grixis control (snap), against lands, against maverick, against reanimator, against non tes storm.decks, ichorid, yeah mostly 2/3 of the format.

Providing 2 for one effects, and a single bojuka bog is really not enough to fight those effects.

The card spellbomb looks weird on paper, cause people are used to play their graveyard hate in side, but considering the current metagame, card is close to never dead (at least less than something like swords to plownshare in miracle),

and provide card advantage/ or gamebreaking effects.

[DNSolver]

Going to be streaming this in the challenge today. Not expecting anything spectacular, but it should be fun.

twitch.tv/dnsolver

[Soulfly77]

Going to be streaming this in the challenge today. Not expecting anything spectacular, but it should be fun.

twitch.tv/dnsolver

Great run man.
Thanks for the light you give to this deck.

Any thoughts or changes on your list after the challenge ?

[DNSolver]

Thoughts:

First, wow this was fun. I expected to 1-3 drop so having fun with memes and great matchups and friendos in twitch chat was great. Gotta mention that.

Literally any depths deck would have 7-0'd pr 6-1'd the swiss with my matchups. I think anyone here advocating for or against this deck should check out my VOD. Afaik I make no $ from people viewing it on twitch (so I don't think I have to say #sponsored) - check it out there. I believe the VOD should show that Hogaak occasionally did things, but nearly all the games and matches were won with Depths combo. From what I can remember:

-Hogaak blocked a creature from attacking vs Mono Red Sneak Attack with weird creatures. This bought a turn for me to find Depths.
-Hogaak technically killed a BR reanimator player in one game but he was probably dead anyway.
-The 1/1s and Hogaak were edict insurance vs Grixis Control.
-Hogaak won one game vs Red Stompy where they didn't have an Ensnaring Bridge.
-Hogaak caused some players to board in grave hate or act scared of the graveyard.

Notably, I did not encounter Karakas or Swords to Plowshares at all in the challenge, losing only to Red Stompy which I believe still remains a difficult matchup. Against decks with Karakas or Swords to Plowshares, I think I would much rather be playing my more typical BG or BUG turbo depths with access to maindeck Safekeepers.

As is, I was playing 61 cards and I don't think a single card could be cut to make room for 4th Satyr Wayfinder, Safekeepers, another utility land, etc. Hard to make cuts or changes when you play matchups that are weak to Urborg-Depths-Hexmage or Urborg-Stage-Depths anyway.

[FTW]

Thanks for streaming. Yeah, I think this deck is well-positioned in the meta. Any variant of Depths just rolls a lot of these nonwhite decks running no maindeck answers to Marit Lage. A lot of my games ended within 4 turns with the opponent cantripping, failing to find anything useful, and conceding before I even make Marit Lage. The discard package, tutors and beatdown plan help add consistency.

I agree with you that Hogaak is only useful sometimes, I often board out the 4th copy unless it's a really grindy matchup. Too often it's not relevant or I'm stuck with 2+ copies and only one is relevant (since it recurs and is legendary).

This deck could also maindeck Safekeepers, maybe over Satyr Wayfinder. I have yet to see enough value in that card. Multiple MD Sylvan Library is much better for digging, so Satyr is primarily Hogaak fuel and we don't even use Hogaak at all some games.




losing only to Red Stompy which I believe still remains a difficult matchup.


Do you board in 4 Force of Vigor and anything else? Maybe our best plan is to aggressively discard/block their few threats. If they have lock pieces but no clock, they topdeck really badly, and you can always EOT Force a Blood Moon and Bridge then create Marit Lage, untap and win...

[DNSolver]

Most of my matches, my side boarding started with -4 hogaak.

I played abrupt decay and assassins trophy over force of vigor. My list will be posted tomorrow if you can't look through the vod.

[adrieng]

Yeah did some more little testing, I think satyr overall is a better card than stitchers. So I am gone try to cut the stitchers which doesn't give value usually contrary to satyr for more discards and tutors. Map comes to mind in my version cause I don't play mox and manabase is sometimes fragile. Sticthers allows for fast Hogaak but that's really random, while satyr always grap a land, and sometimes a cabal/hogaak and allows to go turn one cabal turn two satyr get a land flashback.

Don't know if hogaak provides any value, it seems a bit slow in this version, especially against combo. Against non white decks, non strix decks ie most likely delver.decks he is good, but that's still not a huge proportion of the meta.

Though, if you play Hogaak instead of needle you play basically classic.depth list with -4 needle +4 hogaak -4 scrying +4 satyr, you might gain some value against non karakas decks. Might be somethins to consider or not.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah did some more little testing, I think satyr overall is a better card than stitchers. So I am gone try to cut the stitchers which doesn't give value usually contrary to satyr for more discards and tutors. Map comes to mind in my version cause I don't play mox and manabase is sometimes fragile. Sticthers allows for fast Hogaak but that's really random, while satyr always grap a land, and sometimes a cabal/hogaak and allows to go turn one cabal turn two satyr get a land flashback.

Don't know if hogaak provides any value, it seems a bit slow in this version, especially against combo. Against non white decks, non strix decks ie most likely delver.decks he is good, but that's still not a huge proportion of the meta.

Though, if you play Hogaak instead of needle you play basically classic.depth list with -4 needle +4 hogaak -4 scrying +4 satyr, you might gain some value against non karakas decks. Might be somethins to consider or not.

Have you looked at Mulch? I understand the Satyr is there to serve as additional Edict insurance, but once you are committed to a 2-mana spell I think there are options that could possibly perform better. Mulch, and maybe Grisly Salvage, could possibly do some work. I like that Mulch gives you all land cards you see and I like that Salvage does land or creature at instant speed. Both fill the graveyard the way you want. Mulch doesn't put valuable lands in the graveyard, just spells, and Salvage lets you pick the best option in the top 5 instead of the top 4.

[sco0ter]

Have you looked at Mulch? I understand the Satyr is there to serve as additional Edict insurance, but once you are committed to a 2-mana spell I think there are options that could possibly perform better. Mulch, and maybe Grisly Salvage, could possibly do some work. I like that Mulch gives you all land cards you see and I like that Salvage does land or creature at instant speed. Both fill the graveyard the way you want. Mulch doesn't put valuable lands in the graveyard, just spells, and Salvage lets you pick the best option in the top 5 instead of the top 4.

I proposed them, too, but when think about it, I think Satyr's role is also to pay for Hogaak (Convoke).

[Megadeus]

Yeah if Hogaak is the plan you need Satry just to cast it

[adrieng]

satyr is also cabal therapy food, so yeah satyr is waybetter than others options

[Mr. Safety]

Of course, I should have seen that. I am going to try and catch DNSolver's league he ran, see how the deck runs.

[Cire]

Don't know if hogaak provides any value, it seems a bit slow in this version, especially against combo. Against non white decks, non strix decks ie most likely delver.decks he is good, but that's still not a huge proportion of the meta.

Sorry if I'm a bit confused on this - do you not think Hogaak provides value? Isn't that the point of this version? From DNSolver's stream, I am not sure I personally see the value of Hogaak - just the power of Depths Combo itself in current Meta?

[adrieng]

Sorry if I'm a bit confused on this - do you not think Hogaak provides value? Isn't that the point of this version? From DNSolver's stream, I am not sure I personally see the value of Hogaak - just the power of Depths Combo itself in current Meta?

Didn't have enought testing, but it is really good against delver, which he played only once during his stream. Also you see the power of cabal therapy in this list which provide value and can be grapped with satyr.

Looking at the top8 of mtgo challenge hogaak would have been gamebreaking against 3 out of 8 decks, the 3 delvers.

But as said in previous post the weakest slot is stitcher which i just cutted for 3 expedition map and a 8ith discard, so basically it is a "classic depth list" with -4 sylvan scrying +4 satyr -4 needle +4 hogaak.

So hogaak takes the the needle slot and satyr the scrying slot. Just have to figure out if it is better or not. You don't need to play those weak stitcher to cast hogaak consistently.

[FTW]

Sorry if I'm a bit confused on this - do you not think Hogaak provides value? Isn't that the point of this version? From DNSolver's stream, I am not sure I personally see the value of Hogaak - just the power of Depths Combo itself in current Meta?

In my testing I found some indirect value:

1) Someone Cabal Therapyed me for Sylvan Scrying. Sorry, not playing that version! Fringe decks can cause misplays.

2) In Plains matchups when Marit Lage eats StP, Hogaak holds off attackers until you make the 2nd or 3rd. Even Batterskull can't get through. Even if they have Mom, they will use her on defense instead of offense. Don't know if that's better than just playing protection for Marit Lage, but it has saved me some games.

3) It helps you kill annoying planeswalkers due to trample, while other things can get chumped. But it's really bad against Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

4) They board in grave hate while you board out some Hogaaks, let them lose harder.

Most games I did not use Hogaak, I just won with Depths. Turbo Depths might be better in this meta.

[Megadeus]

I think relying on opponents to be bad usually isn't the best strategy

[DNSolver]

Top 8 the challenge yesterday and lost to red stompy in the quarters. Pocked up one loss in the swiss, to ANT. Played the mirror for the first time in the swiss as well.

Played same list, but considering some changes to make deck better vs red stompy and combo.

[thewrush]

So, this version is still bad then?

[FTW]

Top 8 the challenge yesterday and lost to red stompy in the quarters. Pocked up one loss in the swiss, to ANT. Played the mirror for the first time in the swiss as well.

Played same list, but considering some changes to make deck better vs red stompy and combo.

I think Force of Vigor makes the red stompy matchup much better. It kills all the lock pieces and can be played around them easily (Trinisphere is the only awkward one, but you can be Blood Moon locked and still fire it off). The matchup is still unfavorable, but Force works a lot better there than the alternatives do.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Force of Vigor makes the red stompy matchup much better. It kills all the lock pieces and can be played around them easily (Trinisphere is the only awkward one, but you can be Blood Moon locked and still fire it off). The matchup is still unfavorable, but Force works a lot better there than the alternatives do.

Can confirm, Force of Vigor is very good at fighting Chalice/Blood Moon. I played 3 in a recent 1K, really liked it.

[sco0ter]

This deck is discussed here:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-spice-on-the-fringes

[Scott]

It also got 3rd at a 104-player tournament (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22554&d=353667&f=LE) in China.

[FTW]

Great results!

There's been some discussion about whether this is better than traditional Depths.

I think the relevant question shouldn't be "how often did it just win with Marit Lage?", but "how often did the Hogaak plan help in games that Depths wouldn't win?". This can be hard to tell in matchups where any Depths deck would get there. I think we need more testing and streams, but this deck has promise.

The Chinese 3rd place list is almost a carbon copy of the main lists here, just with 3 Satyrs and 0 Sylvan Library.

One of the biggest gains I found from this build is just the Stitcher's Supplier/Satyr Wayfinder + Cabal Therapy interaction. Cabal Therapy is a very powerful card in a combo deck where we only care about removing certain problem cards, especially if you're a good Cabal Therapy player. Don't mill me into Hogaak, just find me some Therapies!

[mewanyk]

I've recently switched to playing this just to try it out (was previously playing just the standard g/b depths list with mox and confidant) and man was I impressed.

Having another angle to attach from is great, but the cabal therapy package is really what I love the most. It also has much better edict insurance than other depths lists. I played it last week to a 4-0 finish at locals and I think this deck is the real deal.

Also it seems to be picking up steam. More people are playing it, most recently Andrea Mengucci played it to a 5-0 finish in a league and looked incredibly impressive doing so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci3w44WHF9M

[FTW]

It's great to see the deck picking up attention and getting wins!


Also it seems to be picking up steam. More people are playing it, most recently Andrea Mengucci played it to a 5-0 finish in a league and looked incredibly impressive doing so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci3w44WHF9M


I cringed through all the misplays in his MOST matchup, but overall it was fun watching him stomp Delver decks. Hogaak is the real deal against them. His stream makes me appreciate the Satyr Wayfinders more.

[non-inflammable]

It's great to see the deck picking up attention and getting wins!

i watched the mengucci vid, seems legit and fun.

i'll be playing this tomorrow night; i'm about 10 cards short right now.
is there any wiggle room on adding a Life from the Loam?

[FTW]

i'll be playing this tomorrow night; i'm about 10 cards short right now.
is there any wiggle room on adding a Life from the Loam?

Maybe 1 in the SB? In my testing Loam is worse than Satyr Wayfinder or Sylvan Library.

Loam is slow. This deck wants the card right away, not long-term card advantage, and the body+mill from Satyr has better synergy with Hogaak and Cabal Therapy. Loam might help in some grindy Wasteland matchups post-board (e.g. Lands, Wrenn, Maverick) but the maindeck runs smoother without it.

[Lava Snacks]

Big ups to adrieng for coming up with this out of nowhere, and dealing with a lot of skepticism. All credit to him; totally his baby.

[non-inflammable]

Big ups to adrieng for coming up with this out of nowhere, and dealing with a lot of skepticism. All credit to him; totally his baby.

adrieng got with momma lage and we now have the hogaak baby...

https://i.imgur.com/vrQ0Jla.jpg



does this even work for convoke?

https://i.imgur.com/OcUBodG.jpg


EDIT: somebody said get your elvish reclaimers now. they're right, both my LGS sold out yesterday; still three cards short, damn!
EDITED: got my last 3 cards and didn't lose a match. split for first and got $24 credit. get your foils now, boys!
EDITEDED: this guy posted a sweet budget version for $360: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2087862#paper

[Mr. Safety]

Even if you did get the extra green man from convoke + Leyline, what would you use it on? You can't use it to cast Hogaak so it would have to go towards another effect.

[non-inflammable]

You can't use it to cast Hogaak so it would have to go towards another effect.

yeah, never played a convoke card before. the nearest effect for me was something like a birds of paradise or noble hierarch.

so it seems this version of hogaak/depths is "locked-in" on what 61 cards to play.
i've seen the budget versions replacing the mox diamonds and inquisition of kozilek for thoughtseize and ghost quarter for wasteland, etc...

is there another avenue to tweak this? hivemind engaged.

however, deck felt powerful and top-decks were amazing while also hoping to mill a cabal therapy to strip threats.
the only game i felt lost was with a rest in peace in play but i still got him to 4 life with dryad beats.
how about rancor for our little dudes? get beaten by my plant!

[Mr. Safety]

I've played a 1-of Rancor off and on, it's usually very at making the Plan B grind a little better (Rancor-ing a Confidant/Hexmage/ESG.) With Hogaak already having trample I don't think you'll have need, or room, in this particular version, but in traditional Turbo Depths with the addition of Elvish Reclaimer might want one; a 5/4 trampler is pretty decent, and isn't susceptible to grave hate.

[Di]

I haven’t played this version of the deck myself yet but it seems interesting, but am curious if anyone has experienced incidental graveyard hate with Surgical Extraction leading to blowouts against it? I often run into tempo/control matchups bringing in Surgical against the regular build of the deck so it’ll pop up a lot against this, and am wondering how often it’s happened that you just play a Stitcher’s Supplier, mill a Dark Depths, and have it get extracted on t1/2?

This version of the deck has a reasonable backup plan for sure so not the end of the world, but given everything written on the deck so far still suggests you’re winning with Marit Lage the bulk of the time anyway, I do wonder how hard of a time that makes things for it.

[DNSolver]

You can set up your mills post board so that you can immediately delve away vulnerable cards like depths to a hogaak. Even if delver extracts depths you should be able to race at least if you can find hogaak.

[Di]

How are you typically playing out matchups like that (specifically Daze matchups) with this build? Are you slowing down a lot and dancing around Daze/Waste/SE or are you finding success just jamming things and forcing them to answer ASAP?

[non-inflammable]

How are you typically playing out matchups like that (specifically Daze matchups) with this build? Are you slowing down a lot and dancing around Daze/Waste/SE or are you finding success just jamming things and forcing them to answer ASAP?

the discard suite of therapy and thoughtseize really helped get my threats out. the mills were exciting, hoping to flip a therapy.
it was actually the momentum that let me jam threats so much so, that people were countering my little guys and terminusing my dryad arbors.

oddly, my wins were about 50/50 hogaak to momma lage.

the grave hate vs. surgical could be just SB in 4 of your own surgicals and surgical yourself in response and "fail to find".

[Scott]

is there another avenue to tweak this? hivemind engaged.

MatsOle got 7th in yesterday's MTGO Challenge (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2019-07-29) with the list below.

Also, DNSolver got 6th and Sharkcaster_Mage got 20th with lists more typical of this thread.

// Creature (14)
4 Elvish Reclaimer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

// Sorcery (11)
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize

// Instant (4)
4 Crop Rotation

// Artifact (4)
4 Mox Diamond

// Land (27)
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Khalni Garden
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Swamp
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Assassin's Trophy
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Plague Engineer
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

[aCatNamedBootsy]

I checked out twitch just a bit ago to see what streams were going on and come to find out Eternal Weekend Asia is this weekend. I tuned in just as the Legacy Finals had wrapped up and asked in the chat about what was in the finals and what the turnout was. For a an event with 663 players the finals was Hogaak Depths vs Dark Depths. While Hogaak Depths didn't win it, it still is a very respectable result for it.

[Darklingske]

T8 of EW Asia was 5!! Depths with at least 2 Hogaak Depths. I guess the word is out of the insaneness of Hogaak & Depths :)

[Draggo]

I'm new to Depths (sort of, used to have Hexmage/Depths as random combo way back in the days) and these Hogaak/Depths lists look great. They have so many cards I want to play for ages but couldn't put together yet. Hogaak seems to be the perfect link.

So what do you guys think of this list? It's been a blast putting it together and playtesting it so far.
Bloodghasts are really nice to flashback therapy and get back Hogaak. Also really decent for the backup beatdown plan.
When reading around here and in the discord in the depths topics I see Loam being slow, but it's just stupid consistant so I added one. Almost always happy to find it to fill up the grave and get back manaland or the combo.
Sejiri Steppe to the side since it felt really "meh" main but I can see it have it's use side.
Thoughtseize to SB since you'll be getting more flashbacks out of Therapy by having more Satyrs and Bloodghasts. Feel like you only actually need it in combo matchups.

I feel like the deck wants one more Bayou instead of a fetch since you "dregde" alot of cards away. It's a bummer if you randomly put your Bayou/basics in the grave.

Creature (24)
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Bloodghast

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

Spells (9)
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation

Land (27)
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta

3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Khalni Garden
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland

//Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Not of This World
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Thoughtseize

[FTW]

LOL has this deck reached a point where we need a SB strategy for the mirror?

Draggo, have you playtested your list much yet? Thoughtseize is very strong against non-combo decks too. Most fair decks have no or few mainboard ways to interact with Marit Lage. Thoughtseize + Therapy keeps them off those few answers. It can also just take counters or draw spells or win conditions to buy tempo until you go off.

7-8 turn 1 discard is a higher probability of having one, instead of 4 (you won't have one more than half the time). It also gives you information to make Therapy better (when you have both). Having more ways to flashback Therapy doesn't increase your chance of drawing any discard.

Not of This World looks worse than Sylvan Safekeeper. They both achieve the same function (protect your win condition from stuff like StP), except that Safekeeper is repeatable, protects other things too (e.g. Elvish Reclaimer), and is a green weenie to convoke.

[Dice_Box]

I am moving this into the DTB because I feel its playing a rather significant part in the uptick of Depths of late.

[thefreakaccident]

I played this deck for the first time last night, didn't play it in modern, so I really didn't know what I was doing. Went 4-0 in matches against competitive decks. Hogaak is the real deal in Legacy.

[Dice_Box]

It is. I find if the opening assault is answered the deck runs out of steam fast, but very few decks not playing White are able to do that.

[Purple Blood]

It is. I find if the opening assault is answered the deck runs out of steam fast, but very few decks not playing White are able to do that.

Depending on the matchup sometimes it's better to slow play a bit (prioritize discard) to avoid completely running out of gas right away.

That's also where I like Loam. Dredging your Loam back gives Hogaak food (with a little luck a single dredge can almost be enough to recast Hogaak i.e. mill for 3 and get back a Garden or Dryad) and gives you three chances to find a Depth's piece.

This is definitely the real deal. Every card synergizes so well together. It feels unfair being able to shred someone with discard, cast Hogaak, and threaten Marit Large all at the same time.

[Dice_Box]

Oh no, the real fun is when you make Lage and then use her to cast Hogaak.

In not personally sold on having Loam main in this list, not sure I can dig up the space. What have you go?

[non-inflammable]

It feels unfair being able to shred someone with discard, cast Hogaak, and threaten Marit Large all at the same time.

it does feel unfair even with poor starts...

i played against a leylines deck and he had leyline of the voids both games and it still was a slaughter.
the hilarity was when he opened with two leylines of the meek and one leyline of the void.

after stripping his hand with discard, i beat him to death with plant tokens...
however, the hogaaks just sit in your hand though.

[adrieng]

From last mtgo challlenge most of the RUG delver decks where with 2 crop/1 karakas in side ; it seems very bad for us... :(

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-format-playoff-2019-09-09

[Mr. Safety]

From last mtgo challlenge most of the RUG delver decks where with 2 crop/1 karakas in side ; it seems very bad for us... :(

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-format-playoff-2019-09-09

I think Pithing Needle's stock will go up again. Rather than trying to play your own Wastelands, maybe its better to just Needle their Karakas/Wasteland/W&6. It doesn't play into the Mox Diamond/Loam plan as much, but it's known and reliable tech.

[mewanyk]

What are everyones thoughts on the new card, Once upon a time.

For those not familiar : http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/onceuponatime.html

This card seems like it does everything we want. Can find Depths/any land needed or Hogaak, satyr wayfinder, sylvan safekeeper, hexmage. Its generally free early game and even in the mid to late game when you do pay the mana for it's still good.

The selling point for me though is making hands keepable that previously weren't (hands with colored spells but no colored mana) as long as this card is part of that hand. It also accelerates the speed at which you can kill when you can find what you need for free on turn 1 and then play a discard spell the same turn.

I think it's definitely worth trying

What does everyone else think?

[Braden]

I just built this deck as my first legacy deck.

Does anyone have any advice for sideboarding? A sideboard guide would be really appreciated.

I am using the 61 card list thats on mtggoldfish.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2263022#paper

Thanks!

[malekith]

hello boys Just to comment my deck-building doubts.

I'm comparing DLs in order to select what DL could be more suitable for me, taking account I would like to keep Marit Lage as Plan A (the main plan)
So 4xDD 4xTS and the Crop Rotations are a must for me and at less 3 x Urborg sounds well, specially if we will include some Hymns -even in the SB-.


But I had some doubts regarding the rest... checking the different decklists:

1. NUMBER OF CREATURES:
we can find different number of creatures:14 or 19 or 24 ...

I would like to play the Hexmages, because they are very good for main combo (plan A), for convoke Hogaak (plan B) and even in certain situations they are a slow clock dealing damage. This because I'm not sold with 14 creatures. Adding Bloodghast can be mostly meta-dependent, Our regular DL can play well around GY hate but including Bloodghast could improve the Surgicals as answer versus our deck
Sitcher Suppliers... better to include them for Hogaak plan


2.NUMBER OF HOGAAKS:
the Hogaak itself: what is better to play more copies, or use tutors or both? GSZ? Fierce Empath?

3. MOXES OR PETALS:
Mox Diamonds or petals? I would like to play moxes and they are good for Reclaimers...

1 x Khalni Garden is for sure very good to convoke and can help Dryad Arbor to avoid Edicts

Sylvan Safekeeper in the SB are OK also.

As you can see, I have many doubts, whatever advice will be very appreciated. Thank you in advance :rolleyes:

[DNSolver]

Bloodghast was something I theorized in the beginning but ultimately dismissed.

The longer I played the deck, and the more Karakas/StP entered the format (over the past few months), the worse the 4x Supplier 4x Hogaak shell became, obviously. Supplier is pretty weak and you never want more than 1 in a game, so probably max out on 2 copies.

I haven't tried the Matsole list with no Hexmages, but that looks interesting because I'm so into Green Sun's Zenith recently.

Edict effects have declined in the meta with some other flexible answers like Tyrant's Scorn seeing play in U/B/x or 4-color decks. Khalni garden is still playable but I don't think more than 1x is needed.

[malekith]

Thanks DNSolver for your advices

[Draggo]

So I've been testing some more cards and fine tuned my list some more.

Creature (22)
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Bloodghast
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

Spells (12)
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
2 Thoughtseize
1 Entomb

Land (26)
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage

1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bayou

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta

3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Khalni Garden
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland

//Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Thoughtseize
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Blast Zone

1 Moldervine Cloak (up for testing)
1 Maze of Ith (up for testing)

So...
Want more Bloodghast, but can't fit them into the 60. Great to have access to 1 though, for flashbacks and fast Hogaak.
Entomb is great. Get's the Bloodghast, Loam, Therapy or Hogaak. Can also fetch up lands once you have a Loam hanging around your hand or grave.
Blast zone is great fetchable removal. Blow up some stuff/Needles/what ever.
Spyglass, since I wan't to blow up stuff and Needles with Blast zone. Also peeking is fine for Therapy or for other obvious reasons.
Trophy is a beast. Can't see why other lists don't run more in the side.

1 Forest, 2 Swamp, 2 Bayou and 7 Fetch. Been finding myself annoyed with dredging away a fetchable land from the top. So adding one more (swamp) should help a bit. Also better vs Blood Moon stuff.

Maze and Cloak are up for testing. Not sure if Maze is needed. Cloak seems fine as backup plan for beatdown with small creatures. Not needing to rely on the big legendaries. Can get it with Entomb and Stitcher/Wayfinder can actually find it.

[adrieng]

testing animate dead but it was too unreliable



Also this list 5-0 a challenge,

only 2 crop no bog/wasteland main looks really weak to karakas

and OUAT


TERANO playing Dark Depths Position: 4
Deck Name: Dark Depths Sideboard

Creatures [21]
1 Dryad Arbor

1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Vampire Hexmage
Instants [6]
2 Crop Rotation
4 Once Upon a Time
Sorceries [6]

2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
Artifacts [3]

3 Mox Diamond
Lands [24]

1 Forest
1 Nurturing Peatland
1 Swamp
1 Windswept Heath
2 Khalni Garden
3 Bayou
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs


side :
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Force of Vigor
1 Karakas
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer

[razvan]

So I ran this last night at a local 4 rounder and went 4-0.
Beat Urza/Emry/Karn, Sneak and Show, Black control with a ton of annoying things in there, Liliana's, discard, Rankle (yeaaaaaaa), and more, and Infect.
Deck ran smoothly, sometimes green mana is a bit of an issue, but otherwise... it's really solid. And trimming some of the 4ofs (like a Hogaak or a Supplier) doesn't feel like a problem when it comes to bringing in sideboard cards.
The one of lands mostly between SB and MD can be exchanged depending on what you expect more of.

4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Satyr Wayfinder
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Khalni Garden
1 Wasteland
1 Blast Zone
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter

3 Surgical Extraction
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Plague Engineer
2 Fatal Push
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Duress