Throne of Eldraine Spoilers

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The combo with Narset is obviously great, but how often would realistically use the ability without her?

Even with narset you can only get maximum value by activating on an opponent's turn.

[H]

The combo with Narset is obviously great, but how often would realistically use the ability without her?

Yeah, I mean, there is a huge number of cards that are absurd with Narset. The problem is, of course, that they all suck without Narset...

[bruizar]

It is so unbelievably apparent that Devotion will matter again judging on the mana cost of some of the throne of eldraine printings that I bought a set of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. Maybe I should also grab a few copies of Burning-Tree Emissary. The Adamant mechanic, Hall of Heliod's Generosity and the confirmed new Theros set are all major signals.

Then there are the heavy triple, quadruple and hybrid colored mana cards:
The Magic Mirror 6UUU, realistically UUU
Ayara, First of Lockwain BBB
Irencrag Feat 1RRR
Feasting Troll King 2GGGG
4 Hybrid mana:
Arcanist Owl
Covetous Urge
Elite Headhunter
Fireborn Knight
Loch Dragon
Oakhame Ranger
Thunderous Snapper


Dig Through Time here we go again...
https://media.mtgsalvation.com/avatars/thumbnails/274/789/200/283/637039882437511765.jpeg

Love this card. To me it seems like a blend between DTT and Search for Azcanta. (no activation cost, costs 3 mana and gets progressively more nasty, also requires a graveyard full of stuff). I can see this card get banned in standard. Do I buy it before or after this gets banned? When will they learn...

[Poron]

not so sure. 1 more mana give you Jace and with fetchlands and Narset, it can be as good as this while it allows you crazy plays like bouncing and killing in the long run.

I am definitely playing the 4th Jace before the first Magic Mirror.

Anyway UW control is long way dead, now we play UW midrange

[sco0ter]

Seems like a solid card for those crappy blue Modern Mill decks as a back-up win condition.

You mean for Lantern Control? Last time I checked they weren't crappy. Mill Rock and win condition in one card?

[morgan_coke]

Dig Through Time here we go again...
https://media.mtgsalvation.com/avatars/thumbnails/274/789/200/283/637039882437511765.jpeg

Love this card. To me it seems like a blend between DTT and Search for Azcanta. (no activation cost, costs 3 mana and gets progressively more nasty, also requires a graveyard full of stuff). I can see this card get banned in standard. Do I buy it before or after this gets banned? When will they learn...

That card is not actually good. Costs three mana... after a ton of setup. And those three mana are all blue, which will be much harder once we lose the checklands at rotation. Takes 3 more turns after that to get you more cards than Into the Story would right away, and it's not an instant.

There's no reason to ban this because it won't get played.

[bruizar]

That card is not actually good. Costs three mana... after a ton of setup. And those three mana are all blue, which will be much harder once we lose the checklands at rotation. Takes 3 more turns after that to get you more cards than Into the Story would right away, and it's not an instant.

There's no reason to ban this because it won't get played.

The 3 blue mana is not an issue, we're walking straight into Theros here so the standard environment is designed to support that. All you need to do is play a Magic Mirror and ride it out while you one for one your opponents. You're drawing into a wall of control cards. The way I read it is: Cumulative upkeep: one sided howling mine, for 3 mana.

[bruizar]

The 3 blue mana is not an issue, we're walking straight into Theros here so the standard environment is designed to support that. All you need to do is play a Magic Mirror and ride it out while you one for one your opponents. You're drawing into a wall of control cards. The way I read it is: Cumulative upkeep: one sided howling mine, for 3 mana.

Also, War of the spark jace is made for this card. And Oko is a great pillowfort card as well. I totally see this happening.

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/6/a/6adb7d73-4482-4930-8497-cffd169b57e2.jpg?1557576232

[rufus]

That card is not actually good. Costs three mana... after a ton of setup. And those three mana are all blue, which will be much harder once we lose the checklands at rotation. Takes 3 more turns after that to get you more cards than Into the Story would right away, and it's not an instant.

....

Hey, it works with Grozoth and Metalwork Colossus so it can't be all bad. :laugh:

It's a fun card, but it seems that something like JTMS is easier to cast most of the time and better at taking over the game.

[H]

The Mirror might be good in Standard, maybe Modern, but there are far too many efficient ways to answer it in Legacy, I think, that are already super playable as it is, like K Command, Grudge, 'Blasts and so on.

[Barook]

https://i.redd.it/aldoengniem31.png

Looks like Persist combo has a GSZable enabler now.

[H]

Looks like Persist combo has a GSZable enabler now.

Another one, you mean, Melira, Sylvok Outcast already exists.

This new one is slower, but more useful outside the combo I guess though.

[Barook]

Another one, you mean, Melira, Sylvok Outcast already exists.

This new one is slower, but more useful outside the combo I guess though.
Forgot about Melira.

Goblins can do the infinite combo without the Riot enchantment now, though, so that's a plus:

https://twitter.com/plaidclad/status/1172581236860182528

[Fox]

Yeah, but at that point you're trying to play with entirely the wrong Dreadnought.

Yeah, it‘s also way more fun to play the card that lets you Dance through the Manse, as no others in legacy can! :laugh:

The 2 mana 5/4 guy is likely much more relevant to Scheming Symmetry which is going to be the best combo finder standard has had in a while.

[Scott]

From a translation so the actual text will be a little different

https://www.mtgnexus.com/img/cards/eld/54259-fires-of-invention-full.jpg?d=2019-09-14-16

[Pittplayer]

From a translation so the actual text will be a little different

https://www.mtgnexus.com/img/cards/eld/54259-fires-of-invention-full.jpg?d=2019-09-14-16

Whoa. Whoa. That can't be real. That's op af.

[Pittplayer]

Whoa. Whoa. That can't be real. That's op af.

I mean, ok. Burning Wish into Restore Balance, Damnation, Cataclysm, Fiery Confluence, etc. I want to build a B/Rw control deck off the back of this.

[morgan_coke]

I mean, ok. Burning Wish into Restore Balance, Damnation, Cataclysm, Fiery Confluence, etc. I want to build a B/Rw control deck off the back of this.

Aside from being red, more expensive, and coming with a lot of limitations, I'm not sure what advantages this has over As Foretold for that plan. The main thing this does is let you cast a "max mana" spell twice per turn, in effect doubling your mana. In that case you'd rather have it in some kind of tapout ramp deck.

[Pittplayer]

Aside from being red, more expensive, and coming with a lot of limitations, I'm not sure what advantages this has over As Foretold for that plan. The main thing this does is let you cast a "max mana" spell twice per turn, in effect doubling your mana. In that case you'd rather have it in some kind of tapout ramp deck.

Theory crafting but... Fires of Invention, Restore Balance, Crucible of Worlds, Greater Gargadon seems good. With Burning Wish and an assortment of board wipes and answers in the board.

[ahg113]

I too am skeptical about the red enchantment. In effect, it is a much much worse Omniscience. Sure, it's reasonably castable, quickly too. Different color. However, only two spells per turn, can only play spells on your turn, limited to the number of lands you have in play, which cancel out the quickly castable. I love bad/quirky combo decks. I'm trying hard to make Bolas' Citadel a thing. I don't see it here though. ANT, TES, Ruby Storm, Dragon Storm, those all seem like better avenues to cast Burning Wish.

[bruizar]

I don't see it with Fires of Invention, however I would like to see a brew with 20 manlands / ports and this so you can dedicate all your mana not to playing spells, but to beating your opponent down with lands like Raging Ravine or what not.

[kombatkiwi]

Yeah I don't think the enchantment is that great.
It's like a weird combination of As Foretold and Wilderness Reclamation and I don't think it really offers anything that wouldn't be better suited to using either of those 2 cards.

[Megadeus]

I don't see it with Fires of Invention, however I would like to see a brew with 20 manlands / ports and this so you can dedicate all your mana not to playing spells, but to beating your opponent down with lands like Raging Ravine or what not.
Yeah my first thought was that this frees up Mana for activated abilities so we need to figure out what activated abilities are worth it

[mistercakes]

The wishboard is okay. Also seems okay for planeswalkers.

[Humphrey]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/irencragfeat.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=438497&type=card

[Final Fortune]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/irencragfeat.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=438497&type=card

An even more awful Lion's Eye Diamond isn't worth it.

[Humphrey]

An even more awful Lion's Eye Diamond isn't worth it.

ill replace seething song

[mistercakes]

From a translation so the actual text will be a little different

https://www.mtgnexus.com/img/cards/eld/54259-fires-of-invention-full.jpg?d=2019-09-14-16

This + the new ramp spell = access to 11 mana. (assuming you keep the 4 mana available from casting this card the turn before). Could be pretty interesting.

[kombatkiwi]

ill replace seething song

Not being able to wish into ETW seems like an issue though right
I think if you want to take advantage of this new ritual then the deck needs a pretty big overhaul

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/irencragfeat.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=438497&type=card
Modern charbelcher here we go!

[Smuggo]

https://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/drownintheloch1.jpg

[Fox]

Modern charbelcher here we go!

Oh, I thought Scapeshift/Titan was their Belcher. :tongue:

[H]

https://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/drownintheloch1.jpg

Hmm, if Tyrant's Scorn is somewhat playable, it makes me wonder if this might be somewhat playable.

[colo]

With this a large chunk of this format's tendency to play low-cost spells and critters while filling up the yard, I'm very sure an instant this flexible is going to see play!

[wcm8]

Drown in the Loch seems quite good for UBx Aggro/control shells, worth running at 1-2 copies in the main 60. You don’t want it as either your main removal or counterspell options, but the hoops are fairly easy enough to jump through and it’s very versatile. I think it’s better in Modern where it can function as an arguably better Counterspell and may see play at 3-4 copies in the main deck.

I’m not complaining, but has anyone else noticed that sets in general lately have been quite pushed in terms of power level? I much prefer this to the alternative of getting a bunch of Standard/Limited jank with maybe 1 or 2 fringe playables for Eternal formats.

[Smuggo]

With this a large chunk of this format's tendency to play low-cost spells and critters while filling up the yard, I'm very sure an instant this flexible is going to see play!

Yes, it has a lot of potential targets in the format, though seems like it's not going to be so good on the draw. Great flexiblity though.

[H]

I’m not complaining, but has anyone else noticed that sets in general lately have been quite pushed in terms of power level? I much prefer this to the alternative of getting a bunch of Standard/Limited jank with maybe 1 or 2 fringe playables for Eternal formats.

Yeah, I don't think it's a coincidence that these sets are the ones that came to be designed when they moved from the old R&D model to the newer one with the Play/Design team, or whatever they call it. I also prefer it, myself.

[Smuggo]

Drown in the Loch seems quite good for UBx Aggro/control shells, worth running at 1-2 copies in the main 60. You don’t want it as either your main removal or counterspell options, but the hoops are fairly easy enough to jump through and it’s very versatile. I think it’s better in Modern where it can function as an arguably better Counterspell and may see play at 3-4 copies in the main deck.

I’m not complaining, but has anyone else noticed that sets in general lately have been quite pushed in terms of power level? I much prefer this to the alternative of getting a bunch of Standard/Limited jank with maybe 1 or 2 fringe playables for Eternal formats.

I think they're just more conscious of non-standard applications when making the sets than they were a few years ago. Last few sets have had loads of legacy and modern playables but also lots of great commander stuff too. Just feels like they are not only thinking of standard when they design the sets.

[Final Fortune]

Hmm, if Tyrant's Scorn is somewhat playable, it makes me wonder if this might be somewhat playable.

That is a hell of a SB card if nothing else, super good in UBW Blade.

[morgan_coke]

I can't post a pic of it, and it's not like, playable or anything, but does anyone else see the card Lonesome Unicorn and immediately think of the 1980s movie "Legend" with Tom Cruise, Tim Curry, and Mia Sara?

I thought Into the Story was a reference to "The Neverending Story" another '80s classic, but I wasn't sure, now, with this one, I'm finding it a lot more believable. Now all we need is a crystal spider or fire horse or something to provide a "Krull" reference.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/blacklanceparagon.jpg

Not sure where it would fit, but I like the duality of being both a decent beater and a pseudo removal spell (that also gets better with first striking knights).

Edit:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEnMdcVU4AIHQSd?format=png&name=small

Not sure if this is any good - Recurring Nightmare is probably more efficient overall.

[Smuggo]

https://i.redd.it/viagx07rn0n31.png

Looks like a combo with Grenzo Dungeon Warden, ashnods altar and any of the various 1 or 2 mana etb lifeloss creatures or purphoros.

[Barook]

Looks like a combo with Grenzo Dungeon Warden, ashnods altar and any of the various 1 or 2 mana etb lifeloss creatures or purphoros.
Priest of Gix + sac outlet would also work. Altar of Dementia would probably be the best, since it also makes the Cauldron cheaper. Still seems way inferior to Show & Derp or Reanimator.

I also wonder what's the green artifact of the cycle is going to be.

[Dice_Box]

Recurring Nightmare is probably more efficient overall.
But not EDH legal. Thats where this will end up.

[Fox]

Blacklance Paragon seems pretty nuts, certainly limited-ruining. More than playable in any legacy deck which is interested in killing Goyf while improving their Burn matchup and wanting a dude to 1-shot JTMS (and to a lesser extent Wrenn w/ deal 3, force a followup [-1]).

[Ronald Deuce]

I can't post a pic of it, and it's not like, playable or anything, but does anyone else see the card Lonesome Unicorn and immediately think of the 1980s movie "Legend" with Tom Cruise, Tim Curry, and Mia Sara?

I thought Into the Story was a reference to "The Neverending Story" another '80s classic, but I wasn't sure, now, with this one, I'm finding it a lot more believable. Now all we need is a crystal spider or fire horse or something to provide a "Krull" reference.

Still crossing my fingers there's an "EXCALIBUR" of some kind. I've always thought equipment was kinda stupid, but that movie's glorious.

EDIT: Also, LEGACY PUMP KNIGHTS! Big Black needs a comeback.

[kombatkiwi]

Still crossing my fingers there's an "EXCALIBUR" of some kind. I've always thought equipment was kinda stupid, but that movie's glorious.

EDIT: Also, LEGACY PUMP KNIGHTS! Big Black needs a comeback.

Excalibur is probably meant to be the 4RR thing right

I really like that DT/LL knight
Might actually try a Haakon package in Grixis Phoenix for the Buried Alive synergy

[Scott]

This seems good, and could be a sign of some good rare lands coming. Oh, and it's not Legendary, BTW.

Something like "Locktvain Castle"
~ enters tapped unless you control a Swamp
T: add :b:
:1::b::b:, T: Draw a card, then you lose life equal to the number of cards in your hand

https://i.imgur.com/7j7uQNI.png

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Dump your hand than draw a card for 1 life. Yes good card, but not good enough to make MBC or Pox a thing again.

This thing gonna be strong in standard, there are already lots of black midrange and control decks out there...

Also: Flavor win for Overhelmed Apprentice and Sorcerers Broom!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Excalibur is probably meant to be the 4RR thing right

I really like that DT/LL knight
Might actually try a Haakon package in Grixis Phoenix for the Buried Alive synergy
I think because feat makes 7 Mana that Excalibur will also cost 7.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/castlegarenbrig.jpg

Taps for 2 mana for your 6 drop... well ok fine i guess.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/castleembereth.jpg

Curve out and pump all creatures. I like it!

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/castlevantress.jpg

Feels too expensive but im glad the blue one is not broken!

I predict the white one will make a soldier for 2WW

[Smuggo]

In formats without the ever present wasteland they've got no real downside so they'll see play for sure. Black one seems strongest overall. Red one will definitely appear in Standard and the Green one feels very commander playable. Blue one is meh but works as a mana sink in EDH.

[Cire]

Listen I know that hoping for a playable Knights deck is a fool's dream but I really like Blacklance Paragon. Most of the "good" knights are 3 mana though:

Mirran Crusader
Stillmoon Cavalier
KOTR
Olivia, Mobilized for War

etc

Only decent cheaper knights I could think of were

Student of Warfare
Knight of the Holy Nimbus

and I guess the appropriate Pro - Color depending on metagame?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/castlegarenbrig.jpg
I predict the white one will make a soldier for 2WW

OOO, so close, but it's a human token.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Listen I know that hoping for a playable Knights deck is a fool's dream but I really like Blacklance Paragon. Most of the "good" knights are 3 mana though:

Mirran Crusader
Stillmoon Cavalier
KOTR
Olivia, Mobilized for War

etc

Only decent cheaper knights I could think of were

Student of Warfare
Knight of the Holy Nimbus

and I guess the appropriate Pro - Color depending on metagame?
Some other choice knights:

Knight of the Ebon Legion
Dauntless Bodyguard
Corpse Knight
Knight of medowgrain
Knight of the Holy Numbus
Knight of the White Orchid
Paladin of Atonement
Skynight Vanguard
Knight Examplar
Brave the Elements
Diamond Knight
Hero of Bladehold

[Mr. Safety]

Listen I know that hoping for a playable Knights deck is a fool's dream but I really like Blacklance Paragon. Most of the "good" knights are 3 mana though:

Mirran Crusader
Stillmoon Cavalier

Allow me to suggest the maple syrup to your waffles: Stoneforge Mystic and Sword of Fire and Ice. Building your own True Name sounds at least decent.

[Fox]

Important to remember that by itself, the new knight is fine as a removal spell/wincon/pw killer. There is precious little benefit in trying to force a knight tribal deck as he doesn't really play nicely with anything except Haakon.

Once you get to Haakon you think of Entomb and suddenly your deck is failing to make a Grisel with Grisel-making tools.

This is a dude which can live beside Snapcaster in a UB control shell with little downside. Starting with Standstill shells (the only UB control shell?) will likely yield better results than building tribal knights (which is kinda sad b/c Court Hussar/Haakon is a cool CA engine.

[Tylert]

Important to remember that by itself, the new knight is fine as a removal spell/wincon/pw killer. There is precious little benefit in trying to force a knight tribal deck as he doesn't really play nicely with anything except Haakon.

Once you get to Haakon you think of Entomb and suddenly your deck is failing to make a Grisel with Grisel-making tools.

This is a dude which can live beside Snapcaster in a UB control shell with little downside. Starting with Standstill shells (the only UB control shell?) will likely yield better results than building tribal knights (which is kinda sad b/c Court Hussar/Haakon is a cool CA engine.

Anyone knows if haakon can recast the adventure part from the graveyard? (my guess is no)

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/shepherdoftheflock.jpg

Seems cheap enough to be worth a look.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Anyone knows if haakon can recast the adventure part from the graveyard? (my guess is no)

I would say that that getting permission to cast spells with the creature subtype of knight doesn't apply to instants and sorcerceries with the subtype of adventure. But I am also waiting for the comprehensive rules on the subject.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/faeofwishes.jpg

This might be usable somewhere.

[morgan_coke]

Fae of Wishes

Sorcery Adventure - 3U
Death wish, but you don't lose half your life

1U
1/4, flying
1U: discard two cards, return this to your hand

EDIT: dammit rook

[bruizar]

Does the adventure half count as an ability or as a split card? In other words, would a spell cost reducer reduce the cost of adventures or not because it counts as an ability. Would you be able to play adventures with Omniscience ?

[Echelon]

They're typed as instants/sorceries, so I imagine cost reducers work.

[bruizar]

They're typed as instants/sorceries, so I imagine cost reducers work.

It's cool that Living Wish can grab adventure sorceries and instants tacked onto creatures from the sideboard.

[Tylert]

It's cool that Living Wish can grab adventure sorceries and instants tacked onto creatures from the sideboard.

THat's why the ruling with haakon is not completely clear. If you can grab a card because its adventure part is a sorcery, you should be able to cast the spell if the creature part is a knight because it's a knight card :)
There's a part of me which wants to bet on that and buy lots of haakon before dropping them on the market for value.
There is another part of me (Reason i guess) that tells me to forget about this as this would be too good :)

[Echelon]

The creature part is a Knight, the adventure isn't so you can't cast the adventure from your GY via Haakon (unless it had Changeling). It's clear enough.

[Tylert]

The creature part is a Knight, the adventure isn't so you can't cast the adventure from your GY via Haakon (unless it had Changeling). It's clear enough.

Haakon reads, you may play knight cards from your graveyard. Murderous rider is a knight card. It's phisycally the same card as swift end. It's not clear enough that I can't cast swift end :)

[Smuggo]

Haakon reads, you may play knight cards from your graveyard. Murderous rider is a knight card. It's phisycally the same card as swift end. It's not clear enough that I can't cast swift end :)

Yeah this is probably an interaction WotC will need to clarify.

[Echelon]

They have clearly different names and types. One has the type Knight, the other has not. All you have to check is does the card have the type Knight? Ardenvale Knight does, therefor you can cast Ardenvale Knight with Haakon. Dizzying Swoop does not, therefor you cannot cast Dizzying Swoop with Haakon. I really don't see the problem. Dizzying Swoop and Ardenvale Knight are 2 different cards that just happen to share a piece of cardboard.

[bruizar]

Giant Skewer is awesome. Shizz Kebab those creatures


https://media.mtgsalvation.com/avatars/274/891/637043788105002268.jpeg

[Tylert]

They have clearly different names and types. One has the type Knight, the other has not. All you have to check is does the card have the type Knight? Ardenvale Knight does, therefor you can cast Ardenvale Knight with Haakon. Dizzying Swoop does not, therefor you cannot cast Dizzying Swoop with Haakon. I really don't see the problem. Dizzying Swoop and Ardenvale Knight are 2 different cards that just happen to share a piece of cardboard.

I personnally don't know what is the exact definition of a card (like in Haakon textbox). physical card? or virtual card? Is Swift end // murderous rider one card or two cards?? I don't know and this is not as clear as you think (Although i'm enclined to believe it's going to be the way you say it is :tongue:)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I would assume that they're to be treated like split cards ala fire // ice until the comprehensive rules are released.

[Smuggo]

I would assume that they're to be treated like split cards ala fire // ice until the comprehensive rules are released.

Maybe but then they aren't the same as past split cards as only have the creature characteristic when in any zone but the stack. WotC is creating inconsistencies here that make it hard to know how these cards should work.

[PirateKing]

I would assume that they're to be treated like split cards ala fire // ice until the comprehensive rules are released.

From the Throne of Eldraine Mechanics post from Wizards, they say:

"While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure. For example, if you cast a spell that lets you search your library and find a creature card, you can find Beanstalk Giant. But if you cast a spell that lets you search your library and find an instant or sorcery card, you won't be able to find Fertile Footsteps."

So it seems like they are trying to angle it so the Adventures can only exist on the stack as they are being cast, in your hand, library or graveyard they are just creature cards.
This does seem contrary to all previous complex card interpretations where outside of the stack with costs paid and modes chosen, the card has all of the attributes printed.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

From the Throne of Eldraine Mechanics post from Wizards, they say:

"While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure. For example, if you cast a spell that lets you search your library and find a creature card, you can find Beanstalk Giant. But if you cast a spell that lets you search your library and find an instant or sorcery card, you won't be able to find Fertile Footsteps."

So it seems like they are trying to angle it so the Adventures can only exist on the stack as they are being cast, in your hand, library or graveyard they are just creature cards.
This does seem contrary to all previous complex card interpretations where outside of the stack with costs paid and modes chosen, the card has all of the attributes printed.
Except that explanation makes no sense, because the rules of magic don't allow you to cast creatures as inatants. That explanation doesn't allow it to have adventure as an activated, static, or triggered ability so how are they even castable if the creature part doesn't have any adventure part?
Like I said. I'm waiting for the comprehensive rules.

[rufus]

I personnally don't know what is the exact definition of a card (like in Haakon textbox). physical card? or virtual card? Is Swift end // murderous rider one card or two cards?? I don't know and this is not as clear as you think (Although i'm enclined to believe it's going to be the way you say it is :tongue:)

What's the ruling on using bestow or morph when casting something from the graveyard with Haakon? (I don't think there are any knights with bestow or morph, but you can hit Haakon with Artificial Evolution.)

[Johanovich]

From the Throne of Eldraine Mechanics post from Wizards, they say:

"While the card is in your hand, your graveyard, your library, even exile, it has only the characteristics of the creature, not the Adventure. For example, if you cast a spell that lets you search your library and find a creature card, you can find Beanstalk Giant. But if you cast a spell that lets you search your library and find an instant or sorcery card, you won't be able to find Fertile Footsteps."

So it seems like they are trying to angle it so the Adventures can only exist on the stack as they are being cast, in your hand, library or graveyard they are just creature cards.
This does seem contrary to all previous complex card interpretations where outside of the stack with costs paid and modes chosen, the card has all of the attributes printed.

Does that mean that you can cast the adventure part of one of these cards with mana created from food chain? That would be sweet!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What's the ruling on using bestow or morph when casting something from the graveyard with Haakon? (I don't think there are any knights with bestow or morph, but you can hit Haakon with Artificial Evolution.)

Yes on bestow, no on morph... I think.

[Tylert]

Do we all agree that it is gonna be a mess? :wink:

[PirateKing]

Do we all agree that it is gonna be a mess? :wink:

I mean, yeah no surprises here

I'm close to advocating just doing a copypaste split card rules text, so in your hand Bonecrusher Giant//Stomp is a Creature Instant - Giant Adventure with CMC 5.
Once you cast Stomp, it's not a creature spell, so Food Chain isn't applicable.
You might need to add some lines to clarify that if you cast Reanimate on the creature you get the creature, and not the spell half.

Beyond that, what issues could arise from having cardtype Instant on the battlefield?

[Fox]

I mean, yeah no surprises here

I'm close to advocating just doing a copypaste split card rules text, so in your hand Bonecrusher Giant//Stomp is a Creature Instant - Giant Adventure with CMC 5.

Beyond that, what issues could arise from having cardtype Instant on the battlefield?

Does EE on 3 kill him or do you need EE on 5. Can ask same question with Decay.

[morgan_coke]

Does anyone want to post a pic of the Green Legendary Artifact - The Great Henge?

It's pretty stupid good. Could definitely slot into Elves! as an additional Glimpse of Nature effect.

[Barook]

Does anyone want to post a pic of the Green Legendary Artifact - The Great Henge?

It's pretty stupid good. Could definitely slot into Elves! as an additional Glimpse of Nature effect.
http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/thegreathenge.jpg

Seems interesting, but the cost is pretty high, even with cost reduction. Could do some work with KotR, though.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/s3_image.php?img=http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2019/09/18/AA_1.jpg

I...I just don't know? Is every cantrip = a bolt good? For 3 mana?

[Barook]

https://www.coolstuffinc.com/s3_image.php?img=http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2019/09/18/AA_1.jpg

I...I just don't know? Is every cantrip = a bolt good? For 3 mana?
3 mana is somewhat expensive for doing nothing on its own, but Keranos as repeatable bolt machine saw play, so there's that. Any Howling Mine effect also makes it pretty reliable, as does JMS.

[PirateKing]

3 mana is somewhat expensive for doing nothing on its own, but Keranos as repeatable bolt machine saw play, so there's that. Any Howling Mine effect also makes it pretty reliable, as does JMS.

It's slow for traditional UR Delver.

But even a slow version still playing 9-10 cantrips, if you can curve Ponder into Dreadhorde Arcanist into this, attacking gets you a free Ponder & 3 damage? Tempting.

[Barook]

It's slow for traditional UR Delver.

But even a slow version still playing 9-10 cantrips, if you can curve Ponder into Dreadhorde Arcanist into this, attacking gets you a free Ponder & 3 damage? Tempting.
For what it's worth, it would also combo nicely with Sylvan Library. Or Wrenn & Six with a cycle land.

It might find its way into midrange decks, most prominently blue ones. As if we needed another reason why Brainstorm is bullshit.

[Smuggo]

It's slow for traditional UR Delver.

But even a slow version still playing 9-10 cantrips, if you can curve Ponder into Dreadhorde Arcanist into this, attacking gets you a free Ponder & 3 damage? Tempting.

3 mana is a lot for something that can just as easily end up sitting around doing nothing. I can get a TNN for 3 mana and that gets to bolt face every turn too but unconditionally and much harder to remove.

[FTW]

3 mana is somewhat expensive for doing nothing on its own, but Keranos as repeatable bolt machine saw play, so there's that. Any Howling Mine effect also makes it pretty reliable, as does JMS.

It's much better alongside Sylvan Library, where you are guaranteed extra "draw"s every turn for 0 mana. Edit: Ninja'd by Barook.

Also works in slow URx decks (e.g. Grixis Pyromancer). Delver does not want this do-nothing durdle.

Edit: speaking of Ninjas, this works well with Ninja of the Deep Hours

[rufus]

...

It might find its way into midrange decks, most prominently blue ones. As if we needed another reason why Brainstorm is bullshit.

Considering that the ability works on other players' turns, and blue is the color with instant speed cantrips, that seems likely.

[FTW]

Considering that the ability works on other players' turns, and blue is the color with instant speed cantrips, that seems likely.

EOT Brainstorm drawing into good stuff, Bolt something for free, crack fetch. Who even needs a main phase.

[Fox]

This card died before it was ever printed. Narset stops it completely.

[Smuggo]

https://i.imgur.com/7gVCLht.png

This seems good. Bounce anything and hve a flash flyer to cast from exile. Yes please.

[itslarryyo]

And its a mythic, oh boy:rolleyes:

[Glass House]

While the power level certainly is rare worthy, afaik mythics are meant to be awe-inspiring cards. Wasn't the Lotus Cobra backlash for this reason? That from a flavor standpoint, a innocuous looking creature fails at being mythic.

[BenBleiweiss]

While the power level certainly is rare worthy, afaik mythics are meant to be awe-inspiring cards. Wasn't the Lotus Cobra backlash for this reason? That from a flavor standpoint, a innocuous looking creature fails at being mythic.

https://twitter.com/StarCityBen/status/1174380131957334017

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://twitter.com/StarCityBen/status/1174380131957334017

Why not make it rare then if they're already changing stuff?

[Cire]

Why not make it rare then if they're already changing stuff?

The art is also less than mythic . . . even if it was borrowing stuff it wouldn't look or feel mythic.

Also my guess/wish at whatever OP card it was before based on the art lol:

~ 1UU
Flying
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may exchange control of target creature you control and target creature an opponent controls.
3/1
~ 1UU
Sorcery - Adventure
Gain control of target creature with a converted mana cost of 2 or less.

[Smuggo]

The art is also less than mythic . . . even if it was borrowing stuff it wouldn't look or feel mythic.

Also my guess/wish at whatever OP card it was before based on the art lol:

~ 1UU
Flying
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, you may exchange control of target creature you control and target creature an opponent controls.
3/1
~ 1UU
Sorcery - Adventure
Gain control of target creature with a converted mana cost of 2 or less.

Take control of your marit lage and then also get a 3/1 flying flash does seem a bit too good :)

[Mr. Safety]

https://i.imgur.com/7gVCLht.png

This seems good. Bounce anything and hve a flash flyer to cast from exile. Yes please.

This card is going to be awesome in modern Stoneblade variants. I might have to pre-order some. The tempo is, put simply, INSANE.

[FTW]

Take control of your marit lage and then also get a 3/1 flying flash does seem a bit too good :)

Why do people keep assuming Sorceries affect Marit Lage?

Edit: Looks like a powerhouse in Standard and Modern. In Legacy often you'll just want to Vendilion Clique something out of their hand rather than durdle with bouncing it.

[FTW]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/faeofwishes.jpg

This might be usable somewhere.

Could High Tide use some number of these in place of Cunning Wish? It allows you to consider noninstant wishboard silver bullets (e.g. Time Spiral). The newer iterations of High Tide go off at sorcery speed anyway so the timing isn't that bad. The downside is it costs 4 instead of 3, but the upside is when you have redundant mana you can cast the Faerie from exile, bounce it, and wish for a second card.

OmniTell might be able to use it too.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EExhXD3UYAEPXTI?format=png&name=smallhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/EExhXD6UEAA6-9J?format=png&name=small

[Smuggo]

Why do people keep assuming Sorceries affect Marit Lage?
.

I hadn't noticed this theorised alternate adventure was a sorcery.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/fabledpassage.jpg

Strictly worse Prismatic Vista. Yeah! :rolleyes:

Also, green pseudo-removal:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/kenrithstransformation.jpg

How does this compare to Beast Within?

[mistercakes]

it's worse, but it's not strictly worse. you don't need to pay life.

[bruizar]

it's worse, but it's not strictly worse. you don't need to pay life.

It's hardly comparable. This draws a card, is one mana cheaper and only hits creatures (at sorcery speed)

Beast Within doesn't draw a card, hits any permanent, costs a mana more, is instant

The only thing these cards share is their color and the Power/Toughness.

[Smuggo]

It's hardly comparable. This draws a card, is one mana cheaper and only hits creatures (at sorcery speed)

Beast Within doesn't draw a card, hits any permanent, costs a mana more, is instant

The only thing these cards share is their color and the Power/Toughness.

He's talking about the land mate.

[bruizar]

He's talking about the land mate.

lol :D

[Fox]

If we're going to keep printing rainbow Fetchlands (though this one is only pseudo-fast), we should probably just unban DRS b/c apparently wotc has no interest in putting downsides into 4-5c goodstuff manabases.

The only redeeming thing about Vista and pseudo-Vista is that the next time Deserts come around, we can expect a Desert-Fetch in addition to payable Desertcycling. They previously killed this possibility by putting fast colored mana on them; but since we're already doing the Vista stuff, apparently omni-Fetch issues and the sanctity of the color wheel don't matter.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If we're going to keep printing rainbow Fetchlands (though this one is only pseudo-fast), we should probably just unban DRS b/c apparently wotc has no interest in putting downsides into 4-5c goodstuff manabases.

The only redeeming thing about Vista and pseudo-Vista is that the next time Deserts come around, we can expect a Desert-Fetch in addition to payable Desertcycling. They previously killed this possibility by putting fast colored mana on them; but since we're already doing the Vista stuff, apparently omni-Fetch issues and the sanctity of the color wheel don't matter.

You're acting like every fetch wasn't an omni-fetch with duals or shocks.

[Fox]

You're acting like every fetch wasn't an omni-fetch with duals or shocks.

Those are less offensive b/c Wasteland is a card which interacts with that behaviour.

The main issue with DRS was that you couldn't really interact with greedy mana if DRS was in their opening hand. These decks can play just as greedy on colors without DRS now b/c they can hide behind uninteractive basics from the start of a game, into cards like Astrolabe and Wrenn. There should be an increasing downside to mana stability as more colors are added, but cards like Vista negate that.

[FTW]

Strictly worse Prismatic Vista. Yeah! :rolleyes:

Strictly better Evolving Wilds, which is good for 4-color and 5-color Commander where you don't care about ETB tapped on turn 1 but don't want ETB tapped on turn 4-8.



Also, green pseudo-removal:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/kenrithstransformation.jpg

How does this compare to Beast Within?

The comparison point is Lignify. 3/3 beast is still a threat, while 0/4 Treefolk is not, but drawing a card is good. Seems strong with blink effects where you can move the enchantment to different things and draw more cards.

inb4 Marit Lage: The aura doesn't have flash.

[BenBleiweiss]

It's hardly comparable. This draws a card, is one mana cheaper and only hits creatures (at sorcery speed)

Beast Within doesn't draw a card, hits any permanent, costs a mana more, is instant

The only thing these cards share is their color and the Power/Toughness.

I can't tell if this was a mistake or you're a comedy genius!

[BenBleiweiss]

I think we have a winner!

https://i.redd.it/p0xl1x9nbkn31.png

Land - Island

~ enters the battlefield tapped unless you control three or more other Islands.

When ~ enters the battlefield untapped, you may put a instant or sorcery card at top of your library from graveyard.

[Fox]

I think we have a winner!

https://i.redd.it/p0xl1x9nbkn31.png

Land - Island

~ enters the battlefield tapped unless you control three or more other Islands.

When ~ enters the battlefield untapped, you may put a instant or sorcery card at top of your library from graveyard.

Ban CB, unban SDT - it's time to troll Storm with this new land and onboard draw. :laugh:

[Smuggo]

I think we have a winner!

https://i.redd.it/p0xl1x9nbkn31.png

Land - Island

~ enters the battlefield tapped unless you control three or more other Islands.

When ~ enters the battlefield untapped, you may put a instant or sorcery card at top of your library from graveyard.

Fetchable reload for terminus... Fun (not)

[Watersaw]

The comparison point is Lignify. 3/3 beast is still a threat, while 0/4 Treefolk is not, but drawing a card is good. Seems strong with blink effects where you can move the enchantment to different things and draw more cards.

inb4 Marit Lage: The aura doesn't have flash.

I don't like it. The card draw is really good but if you're running Lignify then you want to be able to answer creatures and you don't have access to Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy, StP, or well anything else. At that point the 3 power is probably relevant.

[ReAnimator]

https://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/mysticsanctuary.jpg

Englished

[Barook]

Of course the blue land is the best one. Also pretty dumb with Ancestral Recall or Time Walk if you can chain it via fetches.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/happilyeverafter.jpg

This one seems like one of the more managable alternate wincons.

[rufus]

Of course the blue land is the best one. Also pretty dumb with Ancestral Recall or Time Walk if you can chain it via fetches....

I was expecting someone Gush about it.

[Purple Blood]

Those are less offensive b/c Wasteland is a card which interacts with that behaviour.

The main issue with DRS was that you couldn't really interact with greedy mana if DRS was in their opening hand. These decks can play just as greedy on colors without DRS now b/c they can hide behind uninteractive basics from the start of a game, into cards like Astrolabe and Wrenn. There should be an increasing downside to mana stability as more colors are added, but cards like Vista negate that.

Does 4c even play Vista? And that was not the problem with DRS. If DRS only had the ramping ability it would never have been banned. The problem was DRS had all three abilities at once and could be cast from an USea.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Of course the blue land is the best one. Also pretty dumb with Ancestral Recall or Time Walk if you can chain it via fetches.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/happilyeverafter.jpg

This one seems like one of the more managable alternate wincons.

It's the ultimate win-more:
If, you have all permanant types, and are ahead on life, and have every color of permanant... You win!
...How did you not win before?

[H]

I was expecting someone Gush about it.

Unlikely anyone will, since Narset exists and Gush is restricted.

[Smuggo]

It's the ultimate win-more:
If, you have all permanant types, and are ahead on life, and have every color of permanant... You win!
...How did you not win before?

These sorts of things are usually edh wincons more than anything for 60 card formats.

[ThomasDowd]

Unlikely anyone will, since Narset exists and Gush is restricted.

Narset is starting to become Doom Blade meme like.

[PirateKing]

Narset is starting to become Doom Blade meme like.

Lord knows I've seen like, next to zero Brainstorms and Ponders in any games since. Been nothing but Sleight of Hand and Storm Crow. One guy tried playing Opt and we laughed him out of the store, haven't seen him since.

[BenBleiweiss]

Lord knows I've seen like, next to zero Brainstorms and Ponders in any games since. Been nothing but Sleight of Hand and Storm Crow. One guy tried playing Opt and we laughed him out of the store, haven't seen him since.

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=29968&type=card

[Cire]

https://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/mysticsanctuary.jpg

Englished

How does blue get that and green gets a food token . . .

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/avatars/thumbnails/274/925/200/283/637045042557360861.png

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How does blue get that and green gets a food token . . .

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/avatars/thumbnails/274/925/200/283/637045042557360861.png

They're all bad, op.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE2k8YFXkAQKlil?format=jpg&name=medium

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EE2k8YFXkAQKlil?format=jpg&name=medium

Torpor Orb Creature 1.0 wasn't good enough? Ok, now it flys and gains life!

[Barook]

Somebody on Reddit pointed out the combo of the blue land with Meloku (and Time Warp). This reminded me that Trade Routes exist. This could potentially lead to some dumb shit, especially with Miracles. W6 would probably go well with Trade Routes, too, as every land gains ":1:: Cycling". The opportunity cost seems rather low, given that the land is fetchable.


Torpor Orb Creature 1.0 wasn't good enough? Ok, now it flys and gains life!
It also blocks dying triggers.

Not sure how relevant this is? Bridge from Below? Veteran Explorer?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Not sure how relevant this is? Bridge from Below? Veteran Explorer?

I run zombies in modern. That's probably why I blocked out that bit of text.

[Cire]

They're all bad, op.

IDK - blue one looks like it might go into miracles as a one of. Hell, why wouldn't any control deck that runs blue not run 1 of these? The cost of having it in your hand (BS it away) compared to fetching it as a late game trick seems low? That and i'm sure there are fun combos and interactions with it.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

IDK - blue one looks like it might go into miracles as a one of. Hell, why wouldn't any control deck that runs blue not run 1 of these? The cost of having it in your hand (BS it away) compared to fetching it as a late game trick seems low? That and i'm sure there are fun combos and interactions with it.

Because you're not running enough islands:
Miracles, stoneblade, only have 7
sneak and show, rug delver has 6
ANT, 4cc, UB shadow has 5.

According to mtgold fish, so basically if (and only if) you have half (or more) of your islands already in play it will trigger. Otherwise it's not even going to enter untapped.

[Cire]

Because you're not running enough islands:
Miracles, stoneblade, only have 7
sneak and show, rug delver has 6
ANT, 4cc, UB shadow has 5.

According to mtgold fish, so basically if (and only if) you have half (or more) of your islands already in play it will trigger. Otherwise it's not even going to enter untapped.

From what I see on goldfish - Miracles runs something around:

6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Other Fetch Land of some sort
6 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Karakas

Including Fetch Lands, which you will use to fetch islands, tundras or mystic sanctuary, you have about 18 islands in you deck. I feel getting 4 islands given Miracle's draw power by let's say turn 5/6 is pretty high.

[Zombie]

Blue one's definitely silly in Pauper - it can replance Mnemonic Wall in the Familiar deck's infinite combo (normally Ghostly Flicker, Island, Mnemonic Wall, two Familiars, Sage's Row Denizen, now Ghostly Flicker, Mystic Sanctuary, any draw creature, two Familiars, Denizen). It's also a riot with Stonehorn Dignitary. Dignitary+Sanctuary+Flicker = no combats for them and you'll never deck out, they will.

[bruizar]

Of course the blue land is the best one. Also pretty dumb with Ancestral Recall or Time Walk if you can chain it via fetches.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/happilyeverafter.jpg

This one seems like one of the more managable alternate wincons.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&name=TRANSGUILD+COURIER

And some stuff in the yard :D

[bruizar]

https://mythicspoiler.com/ted/cards/mysticsanctuary.jpg

Englished

Tropical Storm is back in Vintage, now with unrestricted Fastbond

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~5sAAOSw7SFbvFD5/s-l300.jpghttps://www.cardkingdom.com/images/magic-the-gathering/unlimited/fastbond-12976-medium.jpg

Glaring oversight or did they just miss crazy Gush plays :D pretty sure they are losing their minds over at themanadrain. The art is even shaped the same way, can't wait for someone to alter mystic sanctuary into an iceberg

[Barook]

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?type=card&name=TRANSGUILD+COURIER

And some stuff in the yard :D
Aka an instant and a sorcery, given that land/creature/artifact/enchantment are already satisfied. And since the GY still counts, killing Courier doesn't do anything. Hell, you could Entomb for it if you wanted. Having to rely on the GY is prolematic in general, though.

[bruizar]

Aka an instant and a sorcery, given that land/creature/artifact/enchantment are already satisfied. And since the GY still counts, killing Courier doesn't do anything. Hell, you could Entomb for it if you wanted. Having to rely on the GY is prolematic in general, though.

If you Entomb or Faithless Looting it, you only need 1 more, which you probably already have given that you have 3 mana to cast the Enchantment

[Cire]

And since the GY still counts, killing Courier doesn't do anything.

I think graveyard counts for the types of card/types . . . but doesn't count for the colors among permanents you control

[morgan_coke]

When I saw Kenrith, I thought, hey, maybe Domain is making a comeback, and it won't suck this time.

Happily Ever After and the new and improved Evolving Wilds are both nods in that direction. Domain would also make a nice counterpoint mechanic to Devotion, because they're polar opposites.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

From what I see on goldfish - Miracles runs something around:

6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Other Fetch Land of some sort
6 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Karakas

Including Fetch Lands, which you will use to fetch islands, tundras or mystic sanctuary, you have about 18 islands in you deck. I feel getting 4 islands given Miracle's draw power by let's say turn 5/6 is pretty high.
Isn't the point of having so many fetches to make sure your brainstorms and ponders always get maximum value?

[mistercakes]

This land is very cool with miracles, Counterbalance, intuition.

For spiral tide it counts as an island. On turn 4 you can eot intuition for high tide + spiral (or a counterspell if you have one of the two already).

[Poron]

Mystic Sanctuary will be big in W6, Trade Routes, decks.

I have to say that if you go RG you already have the colors to retrieve the cards you need from graveyard, be it Loam, Stronghold, Crucible W6 any thinkable dredge/retrace removal ever and so on

[bruizar]

I thought Dwarven Mine was a nice combat trick akin to Dryad Arbor, then realize you might as well put a Terminus on top of your deck with Mystic Sanctuary...

[Echelon]

You are a monster :laugh:

[Barook]

Mystic Sanctuary will be big in W6, Trade Routes, decks.

I have to say that if you go RG you already have the colors to retrieve the cards you need from graveyard, be it Loam, Stronghold, Crucible W6 any thinkable dredge/retrace removal ever and so on
The W6 ultimate requires more setup for retracing, though. This + Trade Routes allows repeatable recursion at a minimal opportunity cost. There's a good reason why cards like Snapcaster, Arcanist, Baby Jace, etc. exile the cards to prevent such cases.

We'll see how those kind of decks are going to turn out, but with stuff like on-demand Terminus, I have a very bad feeling about this.

[Fox]

We'll see how those kind of decks are going to turn out, but with stuff like on-demand Terminus, I have a very bad feeling about this.

Terminus decks aren't renowned for playing Daze/recurring lands to hand. There's also a significant issue with getting to 3 Island on board while moving away from Tundra and still trying to cast :w::w: spells. If you're recurring Terminus like this, it could be any wrath card at all (5 lands on board: 3 Island, 1 Plains, 1 Sanctuary). While it's cool that it's tutorable, this trick has existed since before Terminus existed (Noxious, which can also rebuy PWs and has offensive uses).

[Cire]

Why you moving away from tundra?

[Fox]

Why you moving away from tundra?

Best way to lose a game as UW: playing Tundra into “just got Waste’d out of the game,” doubly bad if your opening hand is forced Tundra play.

The other card is Vista, which is just free win % for UW (uninteractive basic openers cut down drastically on avoidable losses to unstable mana). There are fewer Fetches for the new Mystic Sanctuary, and it gets even worse if you make the play of Fetch Tundra vindicating yourself away from the ability to tutor the new land.

[FTW]

Why you moving away from tundra?

A 2-color deck can now run 8 fetches that each get either basic (e.g. 4 Flooded Strand + 4 Prismatic Vista for Island or Plains), which was not at all possible pre-Vista and allows consistent color-fixing without the usual blue fetch into duals. Arcum's Astrolabe smooths out the basic manabase even more.

The drawback is the manabase now has fewer "Island" fetches, making it harder to get both Tundras and Mystic Sanctuary in play (i.e. with a Vista manabase you are not going to have 2 Tundra + Island when you drop Sanctuary as your 4th land), making this card pretty bad even as a 1-of. The decks most likely to stick to blue fetches + duals are decks like RUG Delver and 4c, but they're also less likely to want an ETB tapped monocolored land that's only good as the 4th-5th land drop.

Daze can abuse the ability, but decks that run Daze aren't playing for the lategame. (Edit: Maybe Stasis.dec wants this)

[Cire]

Best way to lose a game as UW: playing Tundra into “just got Waste’d out of the game,” doubly bad if your opening hand is forced Tundra play.

The other card is Vista, which is just free win % for UW (uninteractive basic openers cut down drastically on avoidable losses to unstable mana). There are fewer Fetches for the new Mystic Sanctuary, and it gets even worse if you make the play of Fetch Tundra vindicating yourself away from the ability to tutor the new land.


A 2-color deck can now run 8 fetches that each get either basic (e.g. 4 Flooded Strand + 4 Prismatic Vista for Island or Plains), which was not at all possible pre-Vista and allows consistent color-fixing without the usual blue fetch into duals. Arcum's Astrolabe smooths out the basic manabase even more.

The drawback is the manabase now has fewer "Island" fetches, making it harder to get both Tundras and Mystic Sanctuary in play (i.e. with a Vista manabase you are not going to have 2 Tundra + Island when you drop Sanctuary as your 4th land), making this card pretty bad even as a 1-of. The decks most likely to stick to blue fetches + duals are decks like RUG Delver and Grixis, but they're also less likely to want an ETB tapped land that's only good as the 4th-5th land drop.

Daze can abuse the ability, but decks that run Daze aren't playing for the lategame. (Edit: Maybe Stasis.dec wants this)

Ah thanks for the explanations!

So from the above I gather the proper home for this deck is a Uxx+ Control Deck? Something like Team America? But then you're also right that in such a deck the issue would become managing your islands . . .

The new land is less of a slam dunk than I initially thought - but I still fee like it has a home somewhere.

Actually, lol - what about monoblue control?

[morgan_coke]

Prismatic Omen decks like these new lands a lot.

It's a neat set, personally I'm looking forward to playing a bunch of Abzan Giants/Adventure on Arena. Probably not the best deck, but fun, and good enough to be competitive, and at this point, that's pretty much all I care about.

[mistercakes]

I think it's still very interesting as a singleton in spiral tide.

[bruizar]

So just to verify, there are no foil theme cards right?

[FTW]

So from the above I gather the proper home for this deck is a Uxx+ Control Deck? Actually, lol - what about monoblue control?

Yeah my guess is the most natural homes are monoblue decks that want to hit 4+ lands (High Tide) and Uxx control decks that still tilt towards blue duals over basics and expect to play many lands (RUG Waterfalls?).

Spiral Tide could run 8-10 fetches + 1-2 Mystic Sanctuary + 8-9 Snow-Covered Island and use it to recycle combo pieces. I see no reason for them not to run it actually. Worst case scenario you're forced to play it early and have 1 less mana to cantrip turns 1-3 before going off. That's a minor drawback compared.

[rufus]

Yeah my guess is the most natural homes are monoblue decks that want to hit 4+ lands (High Tide) and Uxx control decks that still tilt towards blue duals over basics and expect to play many lands (RUG Waterfalls?). ...

Ghostly Flicker is a fun interaction there.

[Fox]

Ghostly Flicker is a fun interaction there.

I think the issue there is that you'd playing Ghostly Flicker, a 3 mana do-nothing, for a land that puts a spell atop your deck should you happen to have 4 lands on the table. At those costs, you have two cards competing directly with being 2x JTMS. They could also just be Snapcasters.

The easiest way to unlock Mystic Sanctuary is Daze. The issue is what deck plays at least 3 basic Island, Daze (Wasteland is implicit here), and actively pursues play patterns of multiple Island Fetching openers. You're looking at the pseudo-Delver family of decks: UBx Reanimator, UB[x] Shadow, UG[x] Infect, and Ux Dreadnought. The issue with the first three is the inability to stick to heavy blue openers [they also lack 3x basic Island, increasing variance. their land counts also run too low], but none of these four has CA stapled to instants or sorcs. The same is true of budget Delver (UR) - they aren't great at the mono-U openers, and they jump through hoops just to put a cantrip or Bolt back atop their deck???

High Tide has an issue with its payoff cards shuffling their top of deck, but maybe it's okay in the board vs discard-centric strategies. Adding it to SnT seems pretty dubious as they kinda die to creatures around 4th land drop anyways (and they don't draw necro'd SnT until turn 5). Worse versions of SnT without SnT [i.e. Splinter Twin which is a worse version of As Foretold, both run Chalice] aren't competitive, but I mean one of them could re-up a Balance or Ancestral...so I guess it's an automatic 1x in As Foretold. As we follow the path of increasingly unplayable we'll note that UR good stuff (basically the same deck as Blue Moon) runs back into the problem of no instants/sorcs to justify a Sanctuary. Theoretical decks using artifacts are drowned in card draw (PO, Thoughtcast, Reverse Engineer, TFK, to name a few) to the point that Sanctuary isn't needed.

While Mystic Sanctuary seems sweet, there's pretty high burdens to playability. Even if you get to the point of having a reason to play it, you've got a harder battle as you're destabilizing a mana base (for the tutor aspect) versus Noxious which is free, offensive & defensive, is seen by Snapcaster, and manabase-stabilizing (necros lost lands). I think Mystic Sanctuary probably belongs to Landstill with Daze [which is exactly Dreadstill], but not sure what there is to get back that we care about other than wanting to re-buy FoN to exile recursive spells. The next best candidate is buying back [???] Veil of Summer, but pure UG lacks removal (dead by that turn 5) and if you're adding colors to UG you're on Wrenn, so just play a Sandbar.

[Infinitium]

In High Tide decks it effectivey untaps 2 lands while simultaneously putting another tide on top of the library. That is interesting, if not necessarily optimal.

[FTW]

High Tide has an issue with its payoff cards shuffling their top of deck, but maybe it's okay in the board vs discard-centric strategies.

High Tide can fetch it during the combo turn just before casting a cantrip. Mystic has land type Island, which is very significant for the deck.

e.g. T4 Fetchland. Tap 1st Island. High Tide. Tap 2nd Island for UU. Crack fetch for untapped Mystic, putting High Tide on top of library. Brainstorm/Ponder. High Tide. Tap 3rd Island and Mystic for UUUUUU. Spiral/Turnabout/whatever.

Recycling either a High Tide or Turnabout at a strategic time could be the difference between going off and fizzling. Yes Spiral shuffles, but the deck has a lot of other ways to access the top card. Even USZ lets you draw first before shuffling.

Against discard the card becomes even more useful, allowing you to EOT fetch Mystic to put a discarded card on top, draw it, and go off. Mystic also lets you counter a game-ending Surgical Extraction on High Tide if you just play an extra land (4 Islands + 1 fetch) and save the fetch for protection.



I mean one of them could re-up a Balance or Ancestral...so I guess it's an automatic 1x in As Foretold.

RUG Waterfalls may be the best As Foretold deck. That deck is grindy enough that a 1x to recycle Crashing Footfalls or Ancestral Vision or removal could be good.


I think Mystic Sanctuary probably belongs to Landstill with Daze [which is exactly Dreadstill], but not sure what there is to get back that we care about other than wanting to re-buy FoN to exile recursive spells.

Dreadstill could happily buy back FoW/FoN under a Standstill lock or even Stifle/Brainstorm/removal outside of the lock, not terrible for a 1x.

[mistercakes]

Intuition is still the best with this land.

Entomb is like mystical tutor with this card.

[Fox]

Entomb is like mystical tutor with this card.

While true, there is little difference between Noxious and Vamp. Tutor in decks that go long. Also, Personal Tutor does most of what you're describing without needing a second card.

The other issues with Entomb so that you can put a spell on top of deck with a second card are:
-losing 2 slots
-why aren't you making a Grisel
-wouldn't you just play Entomb + JVP (+Grisel)
-how exactly are you going long in a deck with Entomb

[mistercakes]

The 2nd card requires no slot, as long as you're okay with a fetchable non basic that sometimes can't tap. I'd be happy with an end step turn 2 entomb + fetch.

[Fox]

The 2nd card requires no slot, as long as you're okay with a fetchable non basic that sometimes can't tap. I'd be happy with an end step turn 2 entomb + fetch.

So unless I'm misreading Mystic Sanctuary, it only does the thing if it ETB'd untapped. (turn 4 play, card drawn on turn 5)

[mistercakes]

I should read the card. Thanks!

[Cire]

No deck I know plays Foil, but this could interact well with foil in like a mono blue control. Discard to Foil - Counter Spell - then your turn cast COW - play it from your GY, get foil or another spell on yop of your library. So a base like the following to work with.

4 Mystic Sanctuary
4 Waste Land
8 Fetch
8 Island

4 COW

4 FOW
4 Foil
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

12 Open?

[Fox]

@Cire: immediately -3 Mystic Sanctuary, add 3 Daze, then make room for a 4th Daze. Question with Foil becomes what you're pitching that advances gameplan by virtue of being in the yard (or madness-enabled). Secondary to that, you're playing a lot of blue and you're going to have to answer a lot of questions with your remaining slots. You have to be able to either not care about or stop C. Priest, RiP, Choke, Narset - and this is just the short list.

You have ~12 slots left, and you need an instant/sorcery-based CA engine. You need a way to win the game. That way to win the game has to be reliable against things like Depths and Vial. Your deck has to reliably survive until turn 4 (but really, turn 5) and prefer playing long games.

UB Mill is probably a better launching point, but even this deck has Islands on board issues as they will play more aggressive land counts with GQ/Field of Ruin. They do at least have this idea of Archive Trap turning on Visions of Beyond, and Sanctuary picking up either piece of this synergistic combo with value stapled on.

[mistercakes]

one really janky combo would be with trade routes and temporal mastery.

[rufus]

So unless I'm misreading Mystic Sanctuary, it only does the thing if it ETB'd untapped. (turn 4 play, card drawn on turn 5)

The thing that I mis-read was that it's top-deck rather than to hand.

That said, there are decks that cheat on land count. This could be pretty good in egg decks if Second Sunrise gets a fetchland back and a free draw into play, and then sanctuary puts Second Sunrise back on top. Of course eggs is pretty awful in legacy. (Maybe they're trying to support that kind of deck with sanctuary and Brought Back.)

[whienot]

one really janky combo would be with trade routes and temporal mastery.

Temporal Mastery Exiles itself. Any other Time Walk effect works, provided you can actually win.

[mistercakes]

Temporal Mastery Exiles itself. Any other Time Walk effect works, provided you can actually win.

Man I'm on a roll for not reading cards today!

[morgan_coke]

I think the biggest Legacy sleeper of the set is going to be Vantress Gargoyle.

A 5/4 flyer for 1U is stupid beyond belief, and it's pretty much always going to be able to attack vs. any kind of Xerox deck, and vs. pretty much anything except stax if the decks running it just put in Thought Scour as one of their cantrips.

The fact that it positively trades with Delver even without being able to attack is pretty key I think.

[Smuggo]

Yeah the Gargoyle is pretty solid in a format where graveyards fill up very quickly and he dodges bolt as well and pitches to Force.

[Barook]

Yeah the Gargoyle is pretty solid in a format where graveyards fill up very quickly and he dodges bolt as well and pitches to Force.
It dodges Bolt, but becomes attackable via artifact removal.

I'll withhold final judgement about it until I've seen it action. It could be a more aggressive flying Goyf, who knows. Stuff like Burning Inquiry should enable it pretty quickly, too.

[bruizar]

It dodges Bolt, but becomes attackable via artifact removal.

I'll withhold final judgement about it until I've seen it action. It could be a more aggressive flying Goyf, who knows. Stuff like Burning Inquiry should enable it pretty quickly, too.

If it goes anywhere, expect more Abrades and Kolaghan’s Commands

[FTW]

Entomb...
-why aren't you making a Grisel


You're Tin Fins going for the Plan C non-Grisel Tendrils kill because there's a Needle on Grisel and Abrupt Decays are for chumps not trying to turn 1 people, but you forgot that you need 4 Islands in play.

OR


how exactly are you going long in a deck with Entomb

You're a 27+ land deck who decided not to get Life from the Loam to troll Surgical Extraction for days.

These are the only 2 cases I can think of....


Any other Time Walk effect works, provided you can actually win.

The "winning" part is challenging given that your combo costs 6 mana per turn (Time Warp is the next cheapest one), and building up more mana is challenging since you spend each land drop replaying Mystic. So you can get infinite turns with 0 land drops and -6 mana, but what do you do with them?

Then there's the matter of surviving until you hit 6 lands and assemble a 2-card combo (Trade Routes + Time Warp). If the rest of your deck is capable of keeping you alive until that, why not win right away with RiP+Helm or Exarch+Twin or other 2-card combos...

Gargoyle looks amazing. The drawback is cards like Gurmag Angler and Dreadhorde Arcanist actively sabotage your efforts to fill their yard. It needs the right home to support it.

[kombatkiwi]

If it goes anywhere, expect more Abrades and Kolaghan’s Commands

I'm not so high on this card
It does look cool on the surface but in a lot of ways I think it's a 2-mana Pteramander
(Not dying to Wrenn is a thing I guess but still)

[FTW]

I'm not so high on this card
It does look cool on the surface but in a lot of ways I think it's a 2-mana Pteramander
(Not dying to Wrenn is a thing I guess but still)

It's a Ptermander with better game against RUG (dodges Bolt & Wrenn, blocks turn 1 Delver, flies to kill Wrenn).

But it's awful against Swamp. Hymn to Tourach and friends stop you from blocking, Gurmag Angler and friends stop you from attacking.

Unfortunately red can just use Abrade and Cindervines to deal with it, so it's only a temporary metagame solution.

[rufus]

...
The "winning" part is challenging given that your combo costs 6 mana per turn (Time Warp is the next cheapest one), and building up more mana is challenging since you spend each land drop replaying Mystic. So you can get infinite turns with 0 land drops and -6 mana, but what do you do with them?

Then there's the matter of surviving until you hit 6 lands and assemble a 2-card combo (Trade Routes + Time Warp). If the rest of your deck is capable of keeping you alive until that, why not win right away with RiP+Helm or Exarch+Twin or other 2-card combos..
...

If the Mystic Sanctuary / Time Warp thing has any traction, it will be in modern where taking turns is already borderline viable.

I'm also stuck wondering about interactions with Gush and (newly unrestricted) Fastbond in vintage.

The requirement to have three other islands in play is pretty significant. It's a card that you don't want to draw. I imagine that mystic sanctuary will see some testing as a 1-of to be used with fetchlands in games that run long in miracles, and possibly other grindy brainstorm decks.

[nupert]

The art is even shaped the same way, can't wait for someone to alter mystic sanctuary into an iceberg

I don't understand. Neither Gush nor Fastbond display an iceberg.

[Poron]

the iceberg is Mystic Sanctuary
Gush evaporates it

[Poron]

Time Warp will not have any traction in a world where the topdeck plays 3 Pyroblast, 4 Wasteland 4 Daze 3 Spierce 4 FoW 2 FoN

[FTW]

Time Warp will not have any traction in a world where the topdeck plays 3 Pyroblast, 4 Wasteland 4 Daze 3 Spierce 4 FoW 2 FoN

It's a good thing almost all those cards are banned in Modern

[Poron]

in order to have a combo you need a way to retrieve Sanctuary every turn. How do you do it in modern?

[H]

in order to have a combo you need a way to retrieve Sanctuary every turn. How do you do it in modern?

I'm not saying it's good enough, but Trade Routes was printed in both 8th and 9th Editions.

[Poron]

I'm not saying it's good enough, but Trade Routes was printed in both 8th and 9th Editions.

then we have a combo, ok. 4 Teferi Time Reveler will do the rest

[rufus]

Since this is dying down, I have a silly rules question: Can you play more than 7 Seven Dwarves in limited?

[H]

Since this is dying down, I have a silly rules question: Can you play more than 7 Seven Dwarves in limited?

No, Eli posted on his twitter that you can't. Not sure if the comp. rules have been updated to reflect it yet though.

[Barook]

Has Oko been tested by somebody in Legacy yet? From what I've seen on streams so far, he seems to overperform in both Standard and Modern, so he might be Legacy-playable as well.

[Scott]

Has Oko been tested by somebody in Legacy yet? From what I've seen on streams so far, he seems to overperform in both Standard and Modern, so he might be Legacy-playable as well.

At the 160-player SCG Classic in Philly (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31934) two days ago, RUG got 5th, 8th, 10th, 12th, and 16th. The 8th, 10th, and 12th place lists played 1 Oko, Thief of Crowns.

Team Open results have sketchier significance, but of the top 28 teams (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31937), 11 of the Legacy pilots played RUG, and the 18th and 22th place ones played an Oko.