Death-Nought [Archive]

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 12:32 PM

I'm posting my experimental Death's Shadow/Phyrexian Dreadnought list to see if I can get some good feedback. I fell on my face playing mono-blue Dreadstill recently and I wanted to see what I could do with a splash color. I don't have Underground Seas so the only viable option, if it shows itself to be viable, is playing Watery Grave + Death's Shadow. In theory it seems spicy and pretty good to me, but in practice it could be a train wreck. I like that it gives access to Thoughtseize as another way to protect Dreadnought (from annoying cards like Abrupt Decay.) I leaned pretty hard on the Ub DS template that has been established for that deck, shaving some of the pieces down to fit in the Stifles.

Here is the current list as of 11/19/19:

4x Death's Shadow
3x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Dark Confidant
2x Brazen Borrower

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
4x Stifle
2x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
1x Force of Negation
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Torpor Orb
1x Lim-Dul's Vault

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
2x Watery Grave
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Bitterblossom
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Darkblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Diabolic Edict

Delver list for testing:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Shadow
3x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Street Wraith
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
3x Watery Grave
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Bitterblossom
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Darkblast
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger's Cage

sco0ter

10-28-2019, 12:52 PM

With that many creatures with 12-13 power, I'd try Varolz, the Scar-Striped in such a deck.

Fox

10-28-2019, 12:53 PM

Wraith out, Confidant in. For more yolo, add Petals. Little need for >1 Watery Grave if you have Seas since you’ll be taking plenty of combat damage.

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 01:35 PM

Wraith out, Confidant in. For more yolo, add Petals. Little need for >1 Watery Grave if you have Seas since you’ll be taking plenty of combat damage.

Wouldn't I need to up it to 20 lands to make Confidant worth running? I don't have Underground seas btw. I figured Wraith is just pure velocity. Lotus Petal isn't terrible, but makes the deck more 'glass cannon' and less 'big bad threat' tempo. I'm not saying no, I'm just curious what I would cut (maybe the maindeck removal?)

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 01:37 PM

With that many creatures with 12-13 power, I'd try Varolz, the Scar-Striped in such a deck.

Very spicy idea, I love it. I could easily splash green with Verdant Catacombs/Overgrown Tomb. Then Abrupt Decay/Sylvan Library get opened up as well. Basic lands would likely have to go at that point, unfortunately.

Grixis is also easy for me with Scalding Tarn/Steam Vents/Blood Crypt, for Bolts, Temur Battle Rage, Pyroblasts in the board.

FTW

10-28-2019, 01:41 PM

With that many creatures with 12-13 power, I'd try Varolz, the Scar-Striped in such a deck.

I made a Deathnought deck a long time ago using that engine, around when Varolz was spoiled. It was back when Deathrite Shaman made midrange BUG a viable archetype. Don't know if it's any good in the current meta.

Varolz means you need some non-12/12 bodies to scavenge onto, so it doesn't work in spell-heavy Delver decks. My list was something like this

//Creatures: 18
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Death's Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

//Lands: 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

(Fatal Push and Leovold hadn't been printed)

True-Name Nemesis, Dark Confidant and even Tarmogoyf are other spicy creature options. It probably doesn't work with Delver. It was easier with DRS to ramp to 3 and stabilize the mana, plus DRS was great to scavenge onto.

Street Wraith seems bad. It makes you think you're playing with a 56 card deck, but in reality it makes mulligans worse and leads to awkward topdecks when your life is pressured but you don't have/need Death's Shadow.

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 01:44 PM

I made a Deathnought deck a long time ago using that engine, around when Varolz was spoiled. It was back when Deathrite Shaman made midrange BUG a viable archetype. Don't know if it's any good in the current meta.

Varolz means you need some non-12/12 bodies to scavenge onto, so it doesn't work in spell-heavy Delver decks. My list was something like this

//Creatures: 18
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Death's Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

//Lands: 18
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Breeding Pool
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

(Fatal Push and Leovold hadn't been printed)

True-Name Nemesis, Dark Confidant and even Tarmogoyf are other spicy creature options. It probably doesn't work with Delver. It was easier with DRS to ramp to 3 and stabilize the mana, plus DRS was great to scavenge onto.

Thanks for the note! I'm not completely sold on Delver, but it seemed like the easiest transition where Ub DS already had an archetype template. Without DRS I don't think this BUG midrange deck is anywhere near good enough, and Varolz at more than 1-2 is super questionable. It opens up Abrupt Decay and other great cards, but I'm not sure I want to go that route. Delver/Daze/Wasteland support the Stifle plan quite strong, which overlaps with Dreadnought.

Honestly, Gurmag/Tombstalker aren't as flashy as Dreadnought but they get the job done in DS. What I'm hoping for is a little more mana stability to be able to run basic lands. don't have UU or BB costs in the maindeck, and only one in the side with LtlH. What does Dreadnought offer over Gurmag/Tombstalker? A much faster clock and trample. It will murder planeswalkers, laugh at TNN and Tarmogoyf, and at the most take 2 turns to win if unanswered.

My main reasons for wanting to include Dreadnoughts in Ub Shadow:
1) The velocity is impressive, giving a high level of consistency
2) Thoughtseize alongside free countermagic should let me protect it.
3) It allows for fast wins against some decks that look to win through card advantage (Miracles, Grixis) see: Thoughtsieze/FoW/FoN/Daze
4) I'm a dork that loves brewed decks
5) I can reasonably use Watery Grave as a budget USea and not lose as much percentage points as shocks replacing other duals
6) DrEaDnought is FucKinG BadASS

sco0ter

10-28-2019, 01:56 PM

Thanks for the note! I'm not completely sold on Delver, but it seemed like the easiest transition where Ub DS already had an archetype template. Without DRS I don't think it's anywhere near good, and Varolz at more than 1-2 is super questionable. It opens up Abrupt Decay and other great cards, but I'm not sure I want to go that route. Delver/Daze/Wasteland support the Stifle plan quite strong, which overlaps with Dreadnought.

Something like this, maybe?
1. Birds of Paradise
2. Varolz
3. Play Dreadnought, sac him, scavenge on BoP, attack with 12/13 flyer

Add some Trinket Mage, which can search Walking Ballista (besides Dreadnought) and Scavenge becomes even more fun.

just theocrafting here... I often look from more casual/Johnny point of view.

FTW

10-28-2019, 01:58 PM

Thanks for the note! I'm not completely sold on Delver, but it seemed like the easiest transition where Ub DS already had an archetype template. Delver/Daze/Wasteland support the Stifle plan quite strong, which overlaps with Dreadnought.

Delver is great with the Stifle/Waste/Daze tempo plan, just less so with Varolz. If you want to play the tempo plan, there's no need for green.

Without DRS I don't think it's anywhere near good, and Varolz at more than 1-2 is super questionable. It opens up Abrupt Decay and other great cards, but I'm not sure I want to go that route.

Yeah DRS made that deck work. It enabled plays like turn 3 Varolz, immediately scavenge it to 15/15, and if they try to Bolt you in response you can sac the DRS to regenerate it. Lategame you could drop Varolz, turn your DRS into a huge threat, and immediately attack for lethal. Both the mana and body made it easier to support multiple Varolz. It's a mana hungry strategy that doesn't work with Wasteland and Daze.

You could replace DRS with other mana dorks, but it's not the same.

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 02:04 PM

You could replace DRS with other mana dorks, but it's not the same.

Ain't that the truth. Elvish Reclaimer is alright, but doesn't net extra mana, just utility lands and a 3/4 beater. It's more akin to Tarmogoyf at 1 mana than a DRS replacement, but a worse one because it doesn't feed Stubborn Denial or even survive Bolt early on. Noble Hierarch is also an idea, and closer to DRS, but still just not enough.

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 02:08 PM

Something like this, maybe?
1. Birds of Paradise
2. Varolz
3. Play Dreadnought, sac him, scavenge on BoP, attack with 12/13 flyer

Add some Trinket Mage, which can search Walking Ballista (besides Dreadnought) and Scavenge becomes even more fun.

just theocrafting here... I often look from more casual/Johnny point of view.

It looks ok, and would shore up the mana base even stronger with Birds adding mana. However, I think that combination of cards is unlikely to happen very often without the cantrips/Street Wraith engine I'd have to give up to fit in more creatures (the disruption is necessary to protect the big dudes.) It can sometimes be a challenge just to get Stifle/Nought together in traditional Dreadstill, which is only a 2 card combination.

Green Sun's Zenith seems interesting in that sort of setup...I think it could be a Nic-Fit-ish variant that just makes big Varolz/Birds and plays a small toolbox and some recursion (Eternal Witness, Reanimate.) The blue would have to go, it would be total overhaul.

Fox

10-28-2019, 05:27 PM

I began legacy on UB Nought without Seas, the mana I went with was Island x2, Swamp x1,Watery Grave x1 (2x was too much), and River of Tears* x1 (this card is incredibly underrated as a budget option). On top of this was Petals, but no Daze. This was around the time of Khans and I was running a ton of Stubborn Denial main. It's a fairly nasty combo in the context of Petal, where Dreadnought on board turns on the ferocious for protecting the incoming Stifle. I wouldn't really want to try this again, because going big like this was uniquely suited to a format where OmniTell w/ DTT had pushed out the fair stuff. Alas they ended the fun times by banning Dig before the more responsible ban: Probe. There is something to be said though for rigorous adherence to no-Daze 1-3-5cmc structure (Steady Progress to beat Chalice + Warping Wail), which I only violated for JVP/Confidant and the occasional LDV/Illusionary Mask [anti-Chalice maindeck].

If we're looking at your list, you're already pretty much auto-losing to Chalice (the classic weakness, along with colored + not-trample, of Shadow); you can't add a third color and absorb losses to Wasteland [from non-Chalice decks] on top of this. You can maybe get away with a bad matchup vs Chalice or a bad matchup vs RUG Delver, but not both. This likely doesn't get re-evaluated until such a time as DRS is unbanned (when you can get away with a 1x Trop).

Dreadnought could play Magus of the Cursed Scroll [DRS], because that's a real wincon with novel win percentage (vs yard value/yard combo). It's not competitive to play -1 cards [pure mana dorks] in Dreadnought; and even outside Dreadnought shells, playing mana dorks into a real threat = losses to most 2-for-1s. That card should be Lotus Petal (and the Lotus Petal stuff is less safe than derping people out with 1-card combos Wrenn/Oko).

In terms of NicFit crossover, I'm not sure what the end goal always is, but you're looking to re-purpose a card NicFit is trying to use conventionally. The top of this list are cards like Nissa, Vital Force, Liliana, the Last Hope, Meren of Clan Nel Toth, and Liliana, Heretical Healer // Liliana, Defiant Necromancer - there's mostly a black predisposition here [with blue backup], but the question is how are you getting value out of instances of 12 P/T on board [at competitive legacy speeds]. Nissa is easier to understand we're trying to re-purpose Stifle for cards like Lotus Field [for some reason]. If you're ever reaching for GSZ, you've already dropped Dreadnoughts b/c you're playing Managorger Hydra.

*The modern border is crap, the Future Sight border on this card specifically is the only time a not-classic border has looked good.

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 07:15 PM

If i played a budget non-Watery Grave dual land it would be Darkslick Shores.

No Daze is interesting, but i think its just too good with stifle/wasteland. If i expect a lot of Chalice in the meta i would maindeck the force of negation and sideboard the Stub.

Thanks for the continuing insight! Always appreciated. I'm still debating Bobs over Wraiths, but i think it being a free cycle thay supports Shadow seems very good.

FTW

10-28-2019, 08:27 PM

Thanks for the continuing insight! Always appreciated. I'm still debating Bobs over Wraiths, but i think it being a free cycle thay supports Shadow seems very good.

Bob or Sylvan Library or pretty much any other card is better. At least you get value for the card slot and life spent. Or play Spell Pierce/Stubborn Denials.

Street Wraith is bad. You think you're playing with a 56-card deck, but it ends up leading to tough mulligan decisions and awkward topdecks when your life total is pressured but you don't have/need Death's Shadow.

Gitaxian Probe was good because:
-It was a sorcery for Delver, Snapcaster, YP, Storm, etc.
-It gave you perfect information to sequence your next turns
-You could choose to pay mana for it when your life total is pressured

Street Wraith does none of those things. It just cycles for 2 life.

You don't need to aggressively suicide your life total against fair decks. They'll deal you damage on their own. You already have fetches, shocks, and Thoughtseize to help you get down. I could see an argument for it in a heavy combo meta where you just need to be explosive as fast as possible. But this meta is full of fair decks like RUG with Lightning Bolt.

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 08:30 PM

Bob or Sylvan Library or pretty much any other card is better. At least you get value for the card slot and life spent. Or play Spell Pierce/Stubborn Denials.

Street Wraith is bad. You think you're playing with a 56-card deck, but it ends up leading to tough mulligan decisions and awkward topdecks when your life total is pressured but you don't have/need Death's Shadow.

Gitaxian Probe was good because:
-It was a sorcery for Delver, Snapcaster, YP, Storm, etc.
-It gave you perfect information to sequence your next turns
-You could choose to pay mana for it when your life total is pressured

Street Wraith does none of those things. It just cycles for 2 life.

You don't need to aggressively suicide your life total against fair decks. They'll deal you damage on their own. You already have fetches, shocks, and Thoughtseize to help you get down. I could see an argument for it in a heavy combo meta where you just need to be explosive as fast as possible. But this meta is full of fair decks like RUG with Lightning Bolt.

You make a great point, i just see Ub Shadow still on Wraiths. To feed Gurmags?

FTW

10-28-2019, 08:33 PM

You make a great point, i just see Ub Shadow still on Wraiths. To feed Gurmags?

Probably. If Wraith has a secondary function, like graveyard-filling, then it gets a lot better.

Dredge ran it to protect dredgers from Surgical, Dredge at instant speed, and feed Ichorid.

Modern runs it to help turn on Delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald and because their cantrips suck.

I just think it's bad if all you're doing is shocking yourself for no reason.

Mr. Safety

10-28-2019, 09:30 PM

Probably. If Wraith has a secondary function, like graveyard-filling, then it gets a lot better.

Dredge ran it to protect dredgers from Surgical, Dredge at instant speed, and feed Ichorid.

Modern runs it to help turn on Delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald and because their cantrips suck.

I just think it's bad if all you're doing is shocking yourself for no reason.

Talking with a couple friends that play the deck have said its easier to manage you're life total in the 6-8 range with Wraiths, where bob is unpredictable. I see the point, but where i'm playing a 2-card combo Confidant can really recoup the card disadvantage. On the other hand, i may not get my life total low as quickly with Bob. I imagine if i'm drawing extra cards that won't matter much. Another thought is to drop the Reanimate for a 4th thoughtseize/daze. Primary target was Wraiths, if i understand the deck properly, but with Bobs i don't know if that slot is still worth it. Reanimating Dreadnought after baiting a counterspell could be fun though...

Testing will show me where to go with it.

FTW

10-28-2019, 09:41 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is their only big threat is Death's Shadow. They're heavy on that plan, so they need it to be big fast. You've got Dreadnought. Between that and Delver, you can win the game at 15 life. Death's Shadow is secondary. You don't need to go suicidal.

If life total control is an issue, you could run neither Bob nor Street Wraith and just play a useful spell.

Ub Shadow is also not putting up big results in the current meta. Dealing yourself 12 damage seems bad against Mountain (RUG, UR Delver, etc.)

kombatkiwi

10-29-2019, 12:25 AM

I think in 2019 legacy unless you're doing something 'extra' (e.g. Scroll of Fate) then Stifle-Nought as the threat package for a tempo deck is just too much clunk.

It just doesn't seem viable to play a Hidden Horror that asks you to discard 1 specific card, even if it is a 12/12.

I think the subset of games where having Stifle + Nought is better than Stifle + Mandrills, or even Angler + any disruption is so small that it's not really worth considering.
Once you have other Dreadnought enablers (Scroll) then at least the deck has its own uniquely powerful niche rather than just being 'awkward delver' or 'awkward shadow' etc

Xod

10-29-2019, 06:28 AM

If you are going UB, keep in mind that 'Lazav, The Multifarious' exists ;-) Combine that with green and get a mongoose or something with hexproof in the grave to protect Lazav at any time.

Mr. Safety

10-29-2019, 08:52 AM

Yeah, I think Dreadnought is already 'all-in' and going with Lazav as well is a recipe for losing to variance. It provides an avenue for protection, but I can already get that with Thoughtseize/Force/Daze or just jamming 7/7 Shadows if they die.

What I like about Ub Shadow is the velocity, playing 8 cantrips and 4 'free' cyclers that enable your biggest threat. Stifle is a card that can push tempo with mana-denial while also enabling a 12/12 trampler. It's also a Force of Will + Daze + Thoughtseize deck, which means protecting the combo should be pretty easy to do. I love to jam bad synergies sometimes but this one has a ton of overlap that I think could make it viable.

Regarding Dreadstill: I think the weak point in that deck is Standstill, which is metagame dependant. I have a notoriously blue-light metagame where it just doesn't pull its weight. There was a recent 1K and there was only 4 copies of Brainstorm in the top8. I think replacing Standstill with Dark Confidant for the needed card replacement from playing Force + Dreadnought could be potentially powerful. He's playable when fighting from behind in the game and even can absorb critical removal spells from opponents, all the while supporting the Death's Shadow plan by using life as a powerful resource. I am strongly leaning towards Confidant over Street Wraith.

There have been several Force of Will/Dark Confidant variants in legacy, I mean Team America used to be a premiere deck. The worst part of that setup was blind flipping Force of Will from a Bob trigger. Now it actually accelerates the Death's Shadow plan.

Listen, I'm not saying 'this is the best deck ever'; but I am saying this seems to have some serious potential because of the strong synergistic overlap of the cards.

Tobitzki

10-29-2019, 10:18 AM

Another route to take here could be Arclight Shadow. There were a couple of lists popping up on MtG Top 8 earlier this year and I recently put together my own, but haven't had the chance to playtest it yet. Similar idea: replace the secondary threat package in DS with another, more explosive but fragile line of attack. Dark Ritual opens all kinds of shenanigans for post-SB games (T1 Hymns, LtlH, Ashiok, etc.), while a slight red splash enables Blasts and Abrades. I think there's merit to experimenting with DS versions atm, I'm not super sold on the stock list as optimal for the current meta.

Fox

10-29-2019, 11:45 AM

So the miner’s canary for Hymn is that it’s not winning games in the optimal shell: Grixis. This is a rather unbroken line dating back to ~2012 (Snapcaster + DRS) of Hymn cheese beginning with Shardless into Czech Pile into Grixis “Control.” In the case of Shardless, you were never resolving SCM vs CB so you had to use the worse, but uncounterable trigger to dig to/towards Decay. Long story short: if these decks can’t use Hymn profitably, the card sucks and its presence in a suboptimal deck [no SCM] is holding your deck back. You do not want to be the one topdecking Hymn against an opponent who can topdeck Wrenn/Oko/Dreadhorde.

The Dark Rit for turbo walker is fine, but a little high on the variance if we’re also adding in Dreadnought. I’d rather try and cheese Rit -> PW in shells like Storm, Griselbrand, or Pox.

The main issue with adding in Shadow is that you lose Dreadnought’s auto-wins against Chalice, and end up with a deck that now turbo-scoops to Chalice. Red represents the worst splash color for UB-core Nought as it only gives us randomly good effects...which are guaranteed to not help you make a Dreadnought.

Any 3rd color has to abolish its auto-loss to Chalice to begin toying with the idea of picking up probably loses to Wasteland. Dreadnought + Shadow is kinda waiting on cards that don’t exist yet, but we do see potential in cards like Orzhov Charm to unite the two.

Mr. Safety

10-29-2019, 03:11 PM

The current mana-base I'm sporting can't support Hymn to Tourach; I would have to play all dual lands to make it work, which isn't something I'm prepared to do in a metagame that always has an unhealthy saturation of Moon Stompy and low saturation of combo or control decks (both of which are the best prey for Hymns.) Not only do I not own Useas but I definitely want basic lands. You could argue that I shouldn't even play this deck in a Moon-heavy metagame, but I think there is some consideration to having something like this as a combo/tempo deck. Dark Ritual makes the deck even more fragile and doesn't deal with Blood Moon. Petal I could possibly get behind (t1 Dreadnoughts/Bobs are pretty good with Force/Daze backup) but that takes up critical disruption slots. Resiliency vs Explosiveness argument all over again.

I think red adds a lot of good value, if I decided to go that route. Lightning Bolt, Abrade, Pyroblast, and even Temur Battle Rage support the plan very well by offering reach and disruption from a different angle. Grixis Delver still puts up occasional results, even if it is the non-optimal tempo deck ATM (Canadian has reclaimed that title for now.)

I'm not sure how Dreadnought auto-wins against Chalice decks, that is admittedly not something I have experienced. I have very little experience with Dreadstill but it never seemed like a blowout to me. I know Scroll of Fate has changed that dynamic, but that is the only case I can think of where it really overbalances. Everything else is dependant on play/draw, whether I have Force of Will/Force of Negation for that t1 Chalice on the draw or at least Spell Snare/Pierce/Daze/Forces on the play.

With recent discussion in mind, I'm actually thinking there are 2 more directions I could take this:

1) Drop Daze and split the slots with Spell Pierce/Torpor Orb/Scroll of Fate. Daze can really slow down the plan when I need to have 2 mana available for a t2 Dreadnought where Spell Pierce could be left up to represent Stifle without losing tempo. Thoughtseize really helps fill the gap in disruption by also being a spell that doesn't require me to return my own lands.

2) Drop Delver and go with Scroll of Fate straight-up and a full set of Dreadnoughts. This makes the deck considerably slower and changes the emphasis that Stifle has from being land disruption to just a combo enabler.

EDIT: Regarding Arclight Shadow, I'm not really interested in doing that. I want 12/12's and 10/10's, the package to support Phoenix is just too big to jam into this.

Tobitzki

10-30-2019, 02:54 PM

Mr. Safety

10-31-2019, 09:43 AM

@ Mr. Safety: Totally get that you'd rather play 12/12s. Same for me tbh: just can't put those Dreadnoughts down, which is why I haven't tested the Arclight Shadow plan yet. But the package isn't as large or clunky as you might think and fits into the stock DS list pretty neatly (OUT: Street Wraiths, Reanimates, Anglers, shave 1-2 Daze/Force, cut the 2 extra counterspells (Stubby D / Force of N) IN: 4 Dark Rituals, 4 Buried Alive, 4 Phoenixes; use 2 Snuff Outs, 2 Gut Shots for removal (& T1 Freebird potential); then add 1-2 Preordains + 2 lands for the Wastelands. Red splash is for hardcast Birds and the usual sideboard staples only, so 2-3 red sources will do.) It's just a different variation of a similar jank (Delver-Shadow on crack) that might just be synergistic enough to work. I agree with what I think @Fox said somewhere: Street Wraith is the weakest link in DS, so that's where experimentation should start.

I like the Stifle idea too, though; early Shadow lists used to run that before settling on the current build. What if you went down to 2 Dreadnoughts and added like a Pteramander + a Lazav and just run it as a super lean tempo version of Shadow? I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Lazav here: he goes super well with both your main monsters.

Thanks for the input! I appreciate the explanation of the Phoenix plan.

I really think that the other weak point in the general Dreadnought plan is Daze. If I Daze t1 without a Delver or t2 without a Confidant or Dreadnought combo, it sets me back a full turn. I think I can still play a similar tempo plan with Thoughtseize + Spell Pierce, which puts me back a turn on the combo but still allows me to make land drops/utilize Wasteland without also returning an Island for Daze. I think a mix of Spell Pierce and Force of Negation could replace the Dazes and still be on-plan. Lotus Petal offsets this mana bottleneck but at the cost of either precious disruption or threats (Delver would be the only place to cut.)

Considering the prevalence of Dark Depths, I think I need to jam a maindeck Vapor Snag as well (especially if I decide to play Dark Confidant over Street Wraith.) Sideboard Brazen Borrowers should be fine as additional Marit Lage tech but having a way to deal with it maindeck seems smart. I have (1) precious maindeck slot available currently, which was going to be a Reanimate. Without Wraiths I think that Reanimate slot should be something else.

Regarding Snuff Out: I think if I end up back on Street Wraiths it is definitely the removal of choice. Until then Dismember is easier to manage my life total alongside Dark Confidant. Bob should feed me more land drops to play it for 1,2, or 3 mana and I can decide how to adjust it given availability of Shadow or current game state.

EDIT: Not sure how Winter Orb fits into this plan anymore, or at all. I don't think its a bad option, but not sure how effective it is as a singleton. I think with Confidant/Thoughtseize I should be ok against the control decks (grixis/4C and Miracles.) That slot could be a ton of other options; I'm leaning towards Narset, Collective Brutality (Hymn is greedy given my mana-base), or another control deck tech. I'd love any suggestions from the community for rounding out the sideboard.

Current:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Bitterblossom
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Darkblast
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Ratchet Bomb
3x OPEN (Flusterstorm, Blue Elemental Blast, Narset, Duress, Collective Brutality, Winter Orb, maybe even Standstill)

Mr. Safety

10-31-2019, 10:00 AM

What if you went down to 2 Dreadnoughts and added like a Pteramander + a Lazav and just run it as a super lean tempo version of Shadow? I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Lazav here: he goes super well with both your main monsters.

I'm already considering going to 2 Dreadnoughts, that's how many Gurmags people play in regular Shadow, but I don't think Lazav is worth it without a way to reliably get him in every game. In order to be truly redundant I would need a tutor of some kind. All of the ones that are playable in legacy are either non-synergistic (Infernal Tutor, Wishclaw Talisman) too much mana (Dark Petition, Beseech the Queen) or too situational (Entomb.)

Pteramander I don't think is good enough. I don't have room for more than 4 functional Delvers. Pteramander is much better in the mid-late game where I can play and activate the same turn; Death's Shadow already fills that role, in a much better way.

Mr. Safety

11-04-2019, 08:14 AM

Green is a potential splash color for Berserk, Abrupt Decay, and Sylvan Library. If that happens I think Delver has to go in order to jam in the combo element of Berserk in favor of the 4th Dreadnought and to jam in Library x2.

So it would look like this:

-4 Delver
-1 Dismember

+1 Dreadnought
+1 Berserk
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Sylvan Library

Library would supercharge Shadows in a big way. The other consideration would be whether Bob or Wraith are better with the green version. Wraith is an unconditional draw, ensuring I get the draws I need to feed into combos. Bob would be an additional threat that could help offset the loss of Delver (Berserk can even have him hit for 4 if I need to get him off the table at low life.) Decay might replace Fatal Push instead of Dismember, not only to help against Chalice decks but also because Decay is more flexible but still overlaps in function.

I don't like the fragile mana-base it would create, but it might be worth it against Moon Stompy for the decays alone.

4x Wasteland
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Island
1x Swamp

Mr. Safety

11-04-2019, 11:35 AM

Interesting UB Delver list got good results in a Legacy MODO league, link below.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23570&d=363215&f=LE

Looking at that I can see a maindeck answer to Chalice with Brazen Borrower. I really like that idea, especially since it performed so well in my last test with mono-blue Dreadstill. At this point I have to really evaluate if Delver is the correct choice, and I'm leaning towards 'no'. I think developing my mana (and not having the Daze pinch) and instead jamming Dreadnoughts/Shadows/Bobs/Borrowers. It turns it into more of a mid-range deck, but that's ok with me.

I can't emphasize enough that Brazen Borrower is a really good tempo play that answers a lot of problems. The issue with Moon Stompy isn't that we can't play around Chalice/Moon, it's that we need to have interaction t0-1, either a Force of Will/Negation or be on the play with a Thoughtseize/Pierce. Now I think mulligans can get a little easier provided 1) I have access to a basic Island/Swamp and 2) I have access to Borrower/Bob as a t2 play. I've mentioned before that Moon Stompy tends to be pretty popular in my local metagame, so I think having a maindeck way to handle Chalice is important.

New list to test:

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Death’s Shadow
3x Dark Confidant
2x Brazen Borrower
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
2x Spell PIerce
4x Force of Will
1x Force of Negation
2x Dismember
2x Fatal Push
4x Thoughtseize
1x Spell Snare
1x Torpor Orb
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
1x Marsh Flats
3x Watery Grave
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland

This also opens up a couple sideboard slots for other options. Torpor Orb will help with enabling the 4th Dreadnought, and I'm definitely leaning more towards Dreadstill with a more compact threat package. Without Delvers t1 decisions get a lot easier; I can leave up mana for Stifle/Pierce/Snare, Push/Dismember/Brainstorm, or just play a t1 Ponder/Thoughtseize without feeling like I'm sacrificing tempo by not getting delver down t1. So this is essentially Dreadstill with Confidant instead of Standstill, Shadow instead of Delver, and Push/Thoughtseize instead of Bolts. I like it.

Mr. Safety

11-06-2019, 10:32 AM

Because this is a combo deck (essentially) along with the fact that I've cut Daze, I am looking at these cards as well:

Lim-Dul's Vault
Rite of Consumption
Collective Brutality

If I end up with more than the current 2 drops I might have to up the land count to 20 (it's probably not a bad idea anyways.) Lim-Dul's Vault seems especially appealing, even if it doesn't actually put it into my hand. It's a way to close out games at instant speed with an unblocked Shadow (I can re-stack as many times as I want.) All 3 of those cards would be there specifically for ending games. Brutality provides reach, hand-based disruption, and removal. Rite of Consumption allows one hit from a 10/10 Shadow or Dreadnought to be lethal, all the while being a sacrifice outlet for Dark Confidant if I need it or a way to recoup life against narrow matchups (burn mostly.) Lim-Dul's Vault helps me assemble Stifle + Dreadnought, pays life to feed Death's Shadow, and is a good way to dig into the exact card I need to close out games (Shadow/Dreadnought/protection like Force/Thoughtseize.)

Mr. Safety

11-12-2019, 09:14 AM

I ended up dropping the LDV idea, it was just too conditional to be good. I worked in a couple of Hymns into the maindeck, which should be quite good as discard #5-6.

I'm testing it out a Creeping Tar Pit over the 2nd basic Island and I'm testing out Darkslick Shores as additional sources of U/B mana. I've used fastlands before in other decks to mild success. Once you hit land #4 it isn't as critical to come into play untapped and I already have 5 fetchable lands (3 WG/1 Island/1 Swamp) so it should be fine. Coming into play tapped shouldn't hurt me too often, especially considering I'm firmly in the mid-range category with Bobs/Hymns/Borrowers.

Mr. Safety

11-20-2019, 08:52 AM

So I was contemplating Snapcaster Mage in the sideboard and it struck me that Death's Shadow doesn't need to be a fast tempo deck. I'm trying to jam Dreadnoughts for a fast combo finish but it may be better to just jam Snapcasters/Hymns/Jace/LilianaTLH. Shadow is a perfectly fine finisher that rewards you for the lifeloss while accruing card advantage. I might even go with maindeck Bitterblossom alondside the PW's and really push the control plan.

The issue for UB, as has always been the case, is how to deal with resolved permanents. Discard and counterspells do a hell of a job, but opposing interaction can squash that. Ratchet Bomb, and to a smaller extent Brazen Borrower and other bounce spells, are fine in most cases but not all.

Fox

11-20-2019, 09:27 AM

Mr. Safety

11-20-2019, 10:43 AM

Once you do that you turn into worse Czech Pile derivative. You’ll eventually start to cut creatures for Strix/Ice-Fang and then need Decay for CB, just like we saw happen in Czech times. That’s the problem with Czech-style decks, you can’t get ahead in the meta by doing the same things, just worse. Bitterblossom is going to run into irrecoverable issues when Oko turns Strix/Ice-Fang into 3/3s - this is a massive change in terms of their ability to clock you vs previous iterations.

Among the more important things you could do against them is challenge their GY, and about the best card for that is Ashiok (which can also crush their opening hand’s Fetches). I’d be much more keen on investigating Dark Rit builds now, given how horrible the Hymn meta is going to be for your deck. Question is what else are you doing with Rit/how are you trading it in for a different card. Outlets are Last Hope, Bob/Seize, others?? The Rit gambit is really bad, but I don’t think you can really get by without it in the imminent meta.

That's good feedback, thanks. I'll stick to Dreadnought for now. I don't have any real Hymn to Tourach decks in my metagame, but that may change as the format adapts to W6 getting the axe. I do like the Ashiok suggestion, it's definitely an avenue.

IIRC, Czech Pile decks were sideboarding Bitterblossoms already so that isn't an issue. They would be on the same tech. I don't see how that's an issue against Oko when it's either 1) pressuring Oko with 1/1 flyers or 2) getting turned into a 3/3 elk to pressure Oko. The difference will be whether they can resolve/keep blockers or deal with the 3/3's. I think Oko gets a lot worse now that W6 isn't distracting attention, but I may be wrong. I'm also not overly concerned about one card (Oko) in the Legacy metagame. My metagame will pounce on Death and Taxes like crazy, it's always been popular here.

Tobitzki

11-20-2019, 10:47 AM

Question is what else are you doing with Rit

*cough cough* cou...-cacaw! caw caw!! -- Did anyone say Arclight Shadow?

Mr. Safety

11-20-2019, 01:02 PM

I love the idea, but it's a different approach. There is already a fairly established Grixis Phoenix deck for legacy, which is much more optimized to utilize that as a threat. I think it could be wildly fun to do that alongside shocklands/Street Wraith/Shadow, but I don't know how good it would be. For now, I think Dark Ritual being card disadvantage I think it will be left alone. I'm already trying to leverage Bob/Hymn to recoup Stifle/Dreadnought and Force of Will card disadvantage. I can afford one combo, but not 2. The combo I already have wins me the game within 2 turns; Dark Ritual into PW/disruption/Bob doesn't do it as quickly.

Mr. Safety

11-26-2019, 08:44 AM

I've been jamming the mid-range list in the OP for a little while, just goldfishing, and it feels good. I probably have 20 test games under my belt. Now I'm going to try the Delver/Daze/Wraith route and see if it works out a little better. For whatever reason, I'm finding I am always full of Dreadnoughts in hand without an enabler even though I play 5 enablers. I think it's time to drop down to 3 Dreadnoughts and jam in another cantrip or other disruption. I'm thinking maybe a Spell Snare, or maybe try out the 1-off Lim-Dul's Vault (which I know looks better than it functions.)

Here is the Delver list for testing:

4x Delver
4x Shadow
4x Wraith
3x Dreadnought
4x Stifle
4x Bstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Thoughtseize
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
18x lands

Hymn will become a sideboard card x2, not sure about Spell Pierce yet.

Fox

11-26-2019, 10:36 AM

I have found the optimal number of enablers to be 2:1. That tally of enablers can include recursive cards like JVP/SCM, though I only assign a value of 0.5 to each one.

Mr. Safety

11-26-2019, 12:39 PM

I have found the optimal number of enablers to be 2:1. That tally of enablers can include recursive cards like JVP/SCM, though I only assign a value of 0.5 to each one.

So for 3 dreadnoughts it should be 6 enablers? Wow, that's probably why I have found myself to be running short often.

Seymour_Asses

12-04-2019, 10:21 PM

How's that Delver/Daze/Wraith version working out for you?

Mr. Safety

12-05-2019, 10:41 AM

Honestly, not as promising as the Dark Confidant version. The Dreadnought/Stifle plan ends up being a little too risky without any source of card advantage. I think a traditional UB Shadow list would end up being more viable with Gurmag Anglers. I'm still in the testing phase (goldfishing) but it doesn't feel as strong of a Dreadnought deck as it is a Delver deck.

I'm concerned about the saturation of Veil of Summer in the format. It means that spot removal/discard gets a lot worse. If that's the case, and I still don't shelve the deck and move to another strategy, then I think Toxic Deluge becomes necessary. Veil doesn't do anything other than cantrip against Deluge.

I'm keeping tabs on BUG and Grixis Delver for a little while, BUG especially seems to be doing well. Whether that continues will give me an indication of how good blue/black strategies are positioned in the format.

Seymour_Asses

12-05-2019, 05:04 PM

Mr. Safety

12-05-2019, 07:52 PM

Yeah Veil is a pain in the ass. I'm building Pox and I'll be running Deluge and a couple SurgEx main that should help with that annoyance.

Won't it be pretty hard to cast a 3 drop in UB Nought though?

At 18 lands, yes. If i end up putting a 2nd Deluge maindeck I would have to shave something for a 19th land. The nature of the deck without Delver is more midrange, so i have time to hit 3 lands in most games. To optimize, 19 lands.

Mr. Safety

12-16-2019, 12:28 PM

Additional note: I'm not playing Daze, which makes playing Deluge a lot more reliable. Reversing a land drop turns 1-2 will be counterproductive to making sure I hit a t3 Deluge. I've done a little more testing and I regularly hit 3-4 land drops in a game, either through cantrips or Bob drawing extra cards. I'm really tempted to switch into a setup with 20 land + Jace/Liliana instead of Stifle + Dreadnought.

Cutting the dreadnought package (which includes Lim-Dul's Vault) gives me 8 slots. Two lands +1 Jace +1 Liliana is only 4 of those 8 slots. I would get a 2nd Deluge and a 3rd Hymn in there, but the other 2 cards need to be blue to support the 5 forces. Snapcaster Mage, Vantress Gargoyle, Spell Snare, Drown in the Loch, Vapor Snag, Flusterstorm, Preordain, Venser, Shaper Savant, Narset Parter of Veils, Ashiok, Dream Render are all on the list for testing in that sort of setup. I have a feeling it would be just a worse version of Grixis Control so I likely will just keep it with 12/12's for the time being.

Splash colors could be enticing, like green for Berserk, Veil of Summer, Sylvan Library, and Abrupt Decay. Red gives me Bolts, KCommand, and Pyroblasts. White gives me Swords to Plowshares, little Teferi, and Disenchant-effects. All three splashes can be easily supported with different fetchland/Shockland configurations.

I'm hoping to get a Thursday night local in (3-4 rounds) this week to see where the deck really needs help.

Mr. Safety

12-27-2019, 09:11 AM

I played 3 rounds with my list last night at a weekly event, did alright, went 2-1. Beat Turbo Depths and Belcher, lost to Moon stompy. One change was i dropped LDV for a Drown in the Loch.

Dark Confidant is not great unless in a control mirror, and i think Bitterblossom is actually better. I lost 2 games to Bob flipping force, not a good feeling when the game was essentially locked up for me. Street Wraiths in, which means i will probably try out Reanimates. I'll post a new list once I figure it out.

FTW

12-28-2019, 11:58 AM

Mr. Safety

12-28-2019, 08:55 PM

If you're losing to Moon and there's a lot of Moon in your meta, could you play with more basics? You don't need to fetch -> Shock every game. Street Wraith + Reanimate may help with the life loss despite getting basics more often.

It was actually the go-wide threats that did me in. I played around chalice only to lose to rabblemaster/warboss. I think i need more practice with the matchup, it was my first match against it.

Mr. Safety

02-24-2020, 09:13 AM

I'm thinking of re-visiting this idea, I think it could be pretty good with the correct balance of Dark Confidant/Standstill between the main/side. The basic idea is to maximize turn 0-1 interaction (Force of Will, Force of Negation, Thoughtseize, Fatal Push, Dismember) into a t2 Standstill (or in the right matchup t2 Dreadnought.) Big threats to finish the game with Shadow/Dreadnought, Borrower/Scroll as additional threats that pull double duty as either disruption or combo enablers. Reanimate without Street Wraith seems a bit lackluster, and the lack of Street Wraith means I have to find other ways to ding my life total like Toxic Deluge.

Proposed list for testing:

Threats - 12
4x Death's Shadow
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Scroll of Fate

Cantrips/Draw/PW's -8
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Permission - 10
4x Thoughtseize
4x Force of Will
2x Stubborn Denial

Removal - 5
2x Fatal Push
2x Dismember
1x Toxic Deluge

Combo/Mana Disruption - 4
4x Stifle

Lands - 21
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mystic Sanctuary
3x Wasteland
3x Mishra's Factory

Sideboard
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Plague Engineer
3x Dark Confidant
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Force of Negation
2x Bitterblossom
1x Umezawa's Jitte

I like that it will play better as a mid-range deck, and better at closing games. In games where Standstill is bad Dark Confidant should be good (Death and Taxes mostly.) Testing out a Jitte in the board to manage life total with Bob's and also to fight go-wide strategies like Young Pyromancer, Elves, D&T, Goblins.

No Daze for now, I don't see how I squeeze in 3-4 without cutting Jace, removal, or utility creatures like Borrower. I think all of those are better suited to the deck instead of Daze, but I could be 100% wrong. I think hitting land drops on curve to hit t2/3 bombs is better, so Daze creates a tension I don't think the deck can handle.

EDIT: Alternatively, I am thinking of going 3 color and dropping the Factories for green mana sources. That opens up Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Oko, and Veil of Summer in the sideboard. Berserk sounds fun but I don't see how I fit it in there without compromising something else.

Fox

02-24-2020, 11:49 AM

I think the issue with the Standstill angle is that it’s probably easier to go full UB Standstill, and largely cut the creatures. The focus would instead be on exploiting the asymmetry with Innocent Blood and Dead of Winter/Deluge. This is also a much better home for recently pushed cards like Drown in the Loch, Murderous Rider, Karn (UB’s premier Chalice killer), Plague Engi, and potentially even Blacklance Paragon. Lots of really strong modal effects here particularly in the areas of lifegain, anti-PW, board control, and anti-artifact. Scroll of Fate does fine in a shell like this as a 1x maindeck [functioning as printed], and you could even go further by giving Karn a Dreadnought in the wishboard. I think with 8x Fetch (Delta full of Vista), you’d only want 1x Sea due to the playability of 2x Tar Pit, so not an overly expensive manabase.

Standstill with dedicated Dreadnought package is going to fit much better into UW or UR at this time. If you’re looking for a 2cmc card that really brings together Dreadnought and Shadow, I think you’re looking at white for Orzhov Charm, which is removal/life-loss ramp and recursive loops which confound removal. You’re also off Delver so the value Lazav isn’t entirely out of the question. Other synergies to investigate include cards like Liliana, Heretical Healer (not that this is better than Last Hope, just that it has text with suicidal creatures). In terms of straight-up value cards, Tasigur is fairly underplayed right now, and there’s something to be said for a 1-mana ferocious enabler.

Mr. Safety

02-24-2020, 03:51 PM

Good thoughts. Beyond Orzhov Charm needing white, I like the idea of having genuine Disenchant effects in the sideboard. It also opens up 3Feri and possibly Swords to Plowshares as a premiere removal spell. Tasigur is interesting, but I think I'd just play Gurmag x1-2 if it came down to that. I'm not sure how often I would be activating Tasigur, but it would be a non-zero amount of times so I think it's a valid option. Getting to 4 mana will be fairly reliable given 21 lands.

I noticed that in games I was winning, Death's Shadow did the work in about 2-3 turns. Dreadnought does the same but can be played earlier. I like the idea of enabling Shadows with Scroll as well, to get them onto the battlefield uncountered, and still flip them over for only B.

One question: do you think Creeping Tar Pit is better than Factory? It would be better for my mana-base but much longer to put on pressure. The tradeoff of time does mean it can kill PW's easier and finish games out.

EDIT: Other options over Standstill are Narset, Parter of Veils, maindeck Liliana, the Last Hope, maindeck Bitterblossom. All give card advantage in some way, even if it isn't actual card draw like Standstill.

Mr. Safety

03-23-2020, 08:51 AM

I've been jammin' this (goldfishing) lately and it has been doing well.

4x Death's Shadow
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Dark Confidant
2x Brazen Borrower
1x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Force of Will
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
1x Drown in the Loch
4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
4x Watery Grave
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Mystic Sanctuary
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Bitterblossom
2x Plague Engineer
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Liliana's Triumph
2x Force of Negation
2x Ratchet Bomb

I haven't played locally in a while, so the SB might change a little bit. Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Toxic Deluge, Jace TMS, and more copies of Ashiok are potential changes. Ashiok seems very good, just a way to shut down an avenue of value in quite a few decks.

Mr. Safety

03-27-2020, 08:35 AM

Necromancy...

@ Mr. Safety: Totally get that you'd rather play 12/12s. Same for me tbh: just can't put those Dreadnoughts down, which is why I haven't tested the Arclight Shadow plan yet. But the package isn't as large or clunky as you might think and fits into the stock DS list pretty neatly (OUT: Street Wraiths, Reanimates, Anglers, shave 1-2 Daze/Force, cut the 2 extra counterspells (Stubby D / Force of N) IN: 4 Dark Rituals, 4 Buried Alive, 4 Phoenixes; use 2 Snuff Outs, 2 Gut Shots for removal (& T1 Freebird potential); then add 1-2 Preordains + 2 lands for the Wastelands. Red splash is for hardcast Birds and the usual sideboard staples only, so 2-3 red sources will do.) It's just a different variation of a similar jank (Delver-Shadow on crack) that might just be synergistic enough to work. I agree with what I think @Fox said somewhere: Street Wraith is the weakest link in DS, so that's where experimentation should start.

I also saw this spicy list recently:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21639&d=345299&f=LE

Necro-ing this idea because I was trying to jam Vengevines recently with Shadow, but the Arclight Phoenix plan sounds pretty spicy as well.

Rough list (no Dreadnoughts):

Threats -12
4x Death's Shadow
4x Arclight Phoenix
2x Young Pyromancer
2x Gurmag Angler

Engine - 12
4x Buried Alive
4x Faithless Looting
4x Dark Ritual

Disruption - 12
4x Thoughtseize
4x Daze
4x Gut Shot

Cantrips - 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder

16 Lands
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Island
1x Swamp

Really curious what Cabal Therapy could do for the deck. Sideboarding Forces seems perfectly reasonable as well.

FTW

03-27-2020, 12:03 PM

Mr. Safety

03-27-2020, 09:50 PM

Why Anglers and YP over Delver?

With cards like Gut Shot and the card disadvantage of Dark Ritual, this deck can't play the grindy game. It's trying to win fast. Delver's a much better pressure card.

That is definitely another idea! So maybe this:

4x delver of secrets
4x Death's shadow
4x arclight Phoenix
4x dark ritual
4x buried Alive
3x thoughtseize
3x cabal therapy
4x daze
4x brainstorm
2x faithless looting
4x ponder
2x gut shot
2x lightning bolt
4x polluted delta
3x scalding tarn
2x misty Rainforest
2x watery grave
2x steam venta
1x blood crypt
1x island
1x swamp

Young pyromancer could easily be a sideboard card; after watching some streams it pairs with the cantrips and therapies really nicely. Free therapy out of the yard can enable some pretty busted plays.

Tobitzki

03-28-2020, 05:45 AM

Cool that you're picking up the idea. I've had my list ready since last October, just never got to to it to action since Leyline and then Control piles took over & pushed both Phoenix and Shadow out of the meta until Breech came and went. Perhaps now is the time to test this at last?

Definitely agree with Delver over Peezy. And I personally like Entomb over Buried Alive + Ritual here; it's more elegant and opens cool tutoring options (Bloodghast, Shenanigans, Cling to Dust). I also think the Buried Alive plan is too risky in a world where everybody maindecks 5-6 Forces. Royal Scions are a strong consideration as a one-of; Tarnished Citadel another cute option once you're in 3 colors. Snuff Out is a must. And no Peezy --> no therapies.

But you don't have to brew this from scratch either, have you seen this article?

https://boltbird.com/p/grixis-arclight-shadow-a-primer

Mr. Safety

03-28-2020, 07:47 PM

FTW

03-28-2020, 09:04 PM

That's a great primer! In this Oko meta I might try something like this

//Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Arclight Phoenix

//Spells: 32
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
3 Gut Shot
1 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Buried Alive
1 Snuff Out

//Lands: 16
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp

//Sideboard: 15
1 Force of Will
1 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
2 Pyroblast
2 Plague Engineer
2 Brazen Borrower

Gut Shot seems pretty good vs Hierarchs, Delvers, Thalia, Coatl, Strix, Hexmage, YP,...

I think Wasteland is not high-reward enough with so much Astrolabe around.

The SB has 4 answers to Chalice (Abrade, Borrower) and 3 answers to Marit Lage/Grisel (Triumph, Borrower), which addresses a lot of the non-Oko decks.

There are 5 answers for a resolved Oko (Borrower, Needle, Pyroblast), plus counter magic, Gut Shot to slow down the ramp, Abrades to kill their own Elk target in response, and Phoenixes to haste attack it. Hopefully that gives the deck a lot of angles to disrupt Oko decks and race in the early game.

Edit: +1 Ashiok -1 Crypt, +1 Snuff Out -1 Dismember

Mr. Safety

03-28-2020, 09:18 PM

Love it, once I get the Phoenixs' I'll put it together. It's the only card I'm missing besides Sea/Badlands. I think I can work with shocks/basics for now.

Tobitzki

03-28-2020, 09:36 PM

@FTW List looks good, as far as a Buried Alive version goes. But especially when running Ritual: 100% Snuff Out > Dismember. Dark Ritual also facilitates Ashiok DR out of the board--probably over the 2nd Crypt. T1 "thou shall not fetch" can steal games, plus it effectively nerfs problem creatures (Goyf, Arcanist, KotR) and Uro.

Tobitzki

03-28-2020, 11:02 PM

Fox

03-28-2020, 11:03 PM

Remember that Ashiok can be used targeting self = Veil of Summer will not prevent yard exile. Has text vs cards like Goblin Engineer, NO/GSZ, KotR, Gamble/Crop Rot, Infernal Tutor, Firemind's Firesight/Eladmri's Call, SFM/Recruiter. Most importantly, don't ever cut this card/fail to SB in vs Snapcaster value pile.

Make sure opponents don't forget to follow the rule this PW introduces in paper, or you will also get a GRV.

FTW

03-29-2020, 07:39 AM

for reference, here's my list:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2874176#paper

I really like how light the red splash is, though 1-2 Lightning Bolts over the 2nd Snuff Out and /or the 3rd Daze could be good here. Another close cut was a 1-of Cabal Therapy (over the 3rd Daze) as another Entomb target that works nicely with the Bloodghast. Going down to 3 Birds is another option to squeeze in the Therapy, a Bolt or maindeck Brazen Boi. Needs testing to figure out these adjustments.

I like that tech. I like how the Entomb package and Thought Scour let you play a grindier game and be less all-in on Buried Alive.

The 1-of Royal Scions looks strong, with all abilities relevant.

Is Bloodghast any good though? I find it underwhelming in other decks. Is there any better recursive target?

Mr. Safety

03-29-2020, 02:28 PM

Tobitzki

03-29-2020, 11:00 PM

I think Gamble could be interesting, but I don't like Entomb over BA. If you're doing Entomb there is a better deck. The reason Phoenix is good is because you can BA and have 3 of them. Alone, a 3/2 flyer that takes effort is just a worse Delver. As far as Bloodghast goes I wouldn't play it without BA, Young Pyro, and Cabal Therapy. Bloodghast is significantly worse than Phoenix in combat and doesn't allow blocking. Dark Ritual supports the 3drops in the sideboard, so dropping that seems bad as well.

I'm going to push back a bit there. I think you could take a similar critique to BA: It's a 3cmc spell + set-up that aims to win over a couple of turns through combat. The immediate competition for it is Doomsday and Show&Tell, two "this resolves I win" buttons. I've played the Grixis Buried Alive version myself and, boy, what a blast to swoop in 3 Birds; but getting your BA countered is just lights out. You also don't have any other (MD) use for your Rituals in this Shadow version (such as T1 Bob + discard), so you're basically reduced to an underpowered A+B(+3rd spell!) combo. Meanwhile, the only Phoenix deck that has continued to show up at all over the past year is the UR version, which is all redundancy with 12 flyers and 16 (!) cantrips. The point being, it's no effort at all to put in a Phoenix. Or put differently, the Birds are not worse than Delver, Entombs just act as Delvers #5-8. So yes, resolving Entomb for Griselbrand is obviously more powerful, but unlike in Reanimator, when they Force your Entomb in a Phoenix deck, you just go on about your business and keep playing tempo. Correctly speaking, opponents should be boarding Forces out vs us. The Entombs are like the Lootings the UR list, just guaranteed to hit. Phoenix didn't need Buried Alive to dominate Modern until Looting got axed.

Gamble: In a non-black Phoenix list I would also like one as an extra copy of Looting, but Gamble over Entomb here doesn't make any sense to me.

As for the Bloodghast: Turning a topdecked Entomb into a hasty 2/1 in the mid-game seems ... fine. I'm not arguing to play it over Phoenix. You could also run a single copy of Creeping Chill for extra reach instead, but that's even cuter. Ultimately, all this is going to need testing.

What bothers me most is that it makes too much sense to run Gut Shots, but I really want a couple of Bolts.

Mr. Safety

03-30-2020, 09:09 AM

I'm going to push back a bit there. I think you could take a similar critique to BA: It's a 3cmc spell + set-up that aims to win over a couple of turns through combat. The immediate competition for it is Doomsday and Show&Tell, two "this resolves I win" buttons. I've played the Grixis Buried Alive version myself and, boy, what a blast to swoop in 3 Birds; but getting your BA countered is just lights out. You also don't have any other (MD) use for your Rituals in this Shadow version (such as T1 Bob + discard), so you're basically reduced to an underpowered A+B(+3rd spell!) combo. Meanwhile, the only Phoenix deck that has continued to show up at all over the past year is the UR version, which is all redundancy with 12 flyers and 16 (!) cantrips. The point being, it's no effort at all to put in a Phoenix. Or put differently, the Birds are not worse than Delver, Entombs just act as Delvers #5-8. So yes, resolving Entomb for Griselbrand is obviously more powerful, but unlike in Reanimator, when they Force your Entomb in a Phoenix deck, you just go on about your business and keep playing tempo. Correctly speaking, opponents should be boarding Forces out vs us. The Entombs are like the Lootings the UR list, just guaranteed to hit. Phoenix didn't need Buried Alive to dominate Modern until Looting got axed.

Gamble: In a non-black Phoenix list I would also like one as an extra copy of Looting, but Gamble over Entomb here doesn't make any sense to me.

As for the Bloodghast: Turning a topdecked Entomb into a hasty 2/1 in the mid-game seems ... fine. I'm not arguing to play it over Phoenix. You could also run a single copy of Creeping Chill for extra reach instead, but that's even cuter. Ultimately, all this is going to need testing.

What bothers me most is that it makes too much sense to run Gut Shots, but I really want a couple of Bolts.

Those are all fair points. I forget that the deck can just naturally spam 3 spells and get a Phoenix, with Entomb being one of the spells. The best part is that the deck can just do it's thing and be good, without any real extra work. I'm still sold on the BA plan for now, but I'll have to keep tabs and see where your experience takes you. Hopefully you continue to post here, I'd love to hear back.

I don't think Bolts are too difficult to put in, I might be completely wrong, but it shouldn't be too much of a stretch. It's basically sacrificing the 'free' nature of 2 Gut Shots, but with the cantrips it shouldn't be hard to work the numbers around a little. Your point about having so many cantrips is definitely valid, I have 9 in the below list but I'm feeling like there is always justification for more.

Here is my starting list (based on the primer you posted, but I'm also adding Lightning Bolt to those flex slots mentioned.)
4x Delver
4x Shadow
4x Phoenix
4x Bstorm
4x Ponder
1x Preordain
4x Ritual
4x BA
4x Daze
3x Force
4x TSeize
2x Gut Shot
2x Bolt
4x Delta
3x Tarn
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty
3x Watery Grave
1x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
1x Island
1x Swamp

In this setup, Gut Shot allows for more explosive turns 1-2. However, I wouldn't blind shoot a DR > BA without protection, either in the form of a preemptive Thoughtseize t2 or a Daze/Force in hand to protect it.

Just a thought: if you're playing Entomb, maybe a better card than Dark Ritual would be Manamorphose. It's another 'free' spell that can turbocharge Phoenix turns. It also shores up one of the worst matchups in Moon Stompy.

Mr. Safety

04-16-2020, 11:43 AM

So I was a little disappointed after testing the list. I really wanted it to be a more combo-ish deck and it really just turned into a delver variant with more, uh, variance.

So I'm back on Dreadnought. Looking to make a white splash, for a minimum of Enlightened Tutor x2. Orzhov Charm is on my mind as well, which was suggested by Fox.

Short list of Etutor targets:

Phyrexian dreadnought (of course...)
Scroll of Fate
Engineered Explosives
Standstill
Tidehollow Sculler
Detention Sphere
Pithing Needle
Crucible of Worlds

Shirt list of white cards to splash:

Swords to Plowshares
Orzhov Charm
Disenchant
Lingering Souls
Stoneforge Mystic + equips (5-6 cards minimum)
Sevinne's Reclamation
Teferi, Time Raveler

Any thoughts are welcome! Annnnnnd....go!

FTW

06-02-2021, 07:00 PM

Clark Kant

06-02-2021, 07:13 PM

The perfect storm of the escape Titans and Dress Down is exactly what Dreadnought needed.

My team has mostly gone towards the Vaka Nought Uro variant so I havent had as much time to tweak the Kroxa Shadow Vaka Nought version but here is where I am currently with that list...

Shadow Vaka Nought

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Death’s Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Street Wraith
2 Kroxa

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
2 Ponder
1 Reanimate
1 Snuff Out/Flusterstorm/Force of Negation/Expedite
1 Spell Pierce/Drown In the Loch/Temur’s Battle Rage

4 Wasteland
14 Grixis Lands

Mr. Safety

06-02-2021, 09:35 PM

Clark Kant

06-17-2021, 12:13 AM

I had a feeling there was a separate thread for this.

Phyrexian Dreadnought and Death's Shadow never really fit together well before, but the new card Dress Down offers to tie them together neatly in a tempo strategy without Standstill and do something other Dreadnought decks couldn't do without falling as light on threats as Shadow can. @MrSafety this could be the boost your deck needed.

I was really excited about this possibility, but Dragon's Rage Channeler consistently outperformed Death's Shadow for me during testing. Surveil is just so powerful when combined with cantrips, Dreadnoughts and Lazavs. This is where I ended up with the list, after eventually dropping Death's Shadow altogether

Vaka Nought - Surveil aka. Naked Nought

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Kroxa
1-2 Lazav, the Multifarious
1-2 Ragavan (Test Slots, could instead go to Force of Negation or Flusterstorm or Drown in the Loch or Preordain or to a different threat such as Death's Shadow or Delver of Secrets or to Urza's Saga targets like Soul Guide Lantern or Pithing Needle)

0-1 Urza's Saga
3-4 Wasteland
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

Surveil is such an incredibly strong ability with cantrips and boot strapping it to Channeler and Lazav made it very abusable. There is absolutely no reason why the above list couldn't incorporate Street Wreaths, Shock lands and Death's Shadows into the above deck, and maybe I was building the deck in correctly when I tried. So maybe someone here will have better luck than me integrating Death's Shadow, Dress Down and Phyrexian Dreadnought into the same list, but I think either Dragon's Rage Channeler or Ragavan will be key to be able to pulling it off.

Clark Kant

06-20-2021, 09:35 AM

Adding to the Dress Down synergy, Urza's Saga can grab Dreadnought and can also grab Hex Parasite which pairs well with Death's Shadow. But Saga is probably too slow.

The core of the deck would be...

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Death's Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Wasteland

I think Defiant Strike is perfect in the above package if we want to 1 shot our opponent and stick with Dimir but red gives us Temur's Battle Rage, Thud, Expedite and powerful threats like DRC and Ragavan that both act as removal magnets and either help dig for needed cards are play them form your opponents library

Mr. Safety

06-23-2021, 08:25 AM

Urza's Saga is probably too slow because there isn't any way to make good use of the constructs; they would be 1/1's, maybe 2/2's. I don't see that being good enough. The whole point of playing Shadow with Dreadnought is to get the count of big fat dudes up to 8. If I could reliably make at least a 5/5 with Urza's Saga then I would immediately include it, possibly along with Crucible of Worlds x1. My biggest hesitation is that Urza's Saga, if built around correctly, is incredibly powerful on its own. If I'm being truly honest with myself, US is a much more powerful strategy. It's doing bonkers stuff in other decks. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but it would be like Deathrite Shaman in Nic Fit: still really good, but not optimized like in Grixis Delver.

Did you mean Tainted Strike? I've eyeballed that card a few times, but it doesn't provide evasion or trample, something I would really need. If it gave flying + infect, even for 2 mana, it would be pretty awesome. Tainted Strike is also a complete non-bo with Dress Down, which is the card that pulls the two big threats together in a big way, allowing to attack with 12/12's and 13/13's. I'm not sure about the layering of it, but I think Dress Down will void the infect even if I play Strike after DD. There are other options in black, like Rite of Consumption, but that is a sorcery at 2 mana. Doing it all in one turn seems ambitious, to put it lightly.

Clark Kant

06-23-2021, 09:31 AM

Is there any card you would cut from the below shell? I feel like every card below is an automatic 4 of, right?

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Death's Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Wasteland
14 Lands

Unfortunately, that only leaves 6 free slots. Street Wraith, Snuff Out, Gurmag Angler and a single Reanimate seem like solid includes but I don't see a way to find room to play anything else. Should the focus be on maxing lifeloss with Snuff Outs and Street Wraiths to allow a early shadow or controlling elements like Drown in the Lochs, FoN and maybe even Dark Confidant. Should Dress Down and Ponder be shaved down?

Or perhaps thanks to FIRE, a vanilla beater like Shadow that can be chumpblocked is just no longer worth it given how powerful 1 drops like Ragavan and DRC have gotten.

Mr. Safety

06-23-2021, 02:14 PM

I think those slots are locked in, with one exception (I go into detail below.) With Street Wraiths there could be an argument for cutting to 3 Ponder, but I wouldn't do it, it's just too good of a card. I don't think Street Wraith is a pure necessity for any deck with Death's Shadow, but the single Reanimate gives us functionally a 5th Shadow/Dreadnought that dies to non-Swords removal. Dress Down provides the same card draw, albeit with a mana cost, but with the upside of making Shadow a 13/13 for big swings. Shadow's lack of trample is kind of a big deal though, so even with Dress Down making it big, it could still be chumped by just about anything.

I think I would, at a minimum, add 2x Fatal Push. It's just too important to have early for Ragavan and other new threats, like USaga Constructs and Dragon's Rage Channeler. All of the threats that get around it, like Murktide Regent, will have to be addressed with Snuff Out. Without Street Wraith you could argue that Snuff Out x4 might be ok.

I've been thinking about this particular setup, and I honestly don't know if it wants Daze. That may sound ludicrous, but lifting a land to have Daze for free sounds really suspect. This isn't really a tempo deck that puts pressure on t1. I think the correct play is probably Stubborn Denial. It is turned on by both threats and is perfectly serviceable as a Force Spike in the early game. If tapping out becomes a necessity for almost every game on t2, then the answer to that could be some number of Force of Negation. I just don't think Daze is going to allow us to do everything we want.

So I would do this:

-4 Daze

+4 removal (Snuff Out/Fatal Push mix)
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Force of Negation
+1 Open slot

Playing 'protect the queen' is the whole game plan for a deck like this, and I'm not sure it's good enough. I could see a complete rework of the deck being possibly good, but likely not as good as what UR Delver is doing. Shadow is, unfortunately, not nearly as good as Ragavan or even Dragon's Rage Channeler. Ditto for Dreadnought, it's just too susceptible to removal. For this deck to work it would need to have a way to get a 12 or 13 power creature on the battlefield and win the same turn, possibly outside of combat. If there was a way to do that, it might be ok. Otherwise I honestly don't think putting more time into the deck is worth it, I have other projects with much greater promise.

FTW

06-23-2021, 03:39 PM

I agree with looking at Daze for the cut. After that maybe the 4th Dress Down, just for curve reasons.

It seems counterintuitive to cut Daze with that curve, but there are 8x 1 drops and 0x turn 1 creatures. Death's Shadow is unlikely to hit the field until turn 3-4. In order to make room for 4 Stifle + 4 Dress Down + 4 Nought, you had to cut some space occupied by Shadow enablers (Street Wraith, Snuff Out, Reanimate, etc) so DeathNought will get Shadow online a bit slower than regular Shadow builds. DressNought is also a turn 3 play. So this deck will rarely have anything on the board before you hit 3 lands (or risks walking into 2-for-1s with turn 2 Stiflenought), which creates no pressure for opponent to play into Daze and makes it awkward for you to pick up your own lands on turns 1 and 2. OTD is worse because you could be facing a lot of damage from their turn 1 DRC/Ragavan/Esper Sentinel/Aether Vial/Chalice that dodged Daze.

On the flip size, you can operate off very few lands so you don't mind trading early plays to Stifle and Waste them, and picking up Watery Grave could help enable Shadow even if it slows down your clock. If there was a 3rd threat that came down early, like Delver or Ragavan, you might get better use out of Daze. That would take the spot of Gurmag or Reanimating Wraith (can't afford to cut down too much interaction).

Maybe Grixis DeathNought with Ragavan is the way to go. Your mana gets worse, but if you're playing a low-land deck that wants to trade land-for-land with the opponent that isn't necessarily a bad thing as they're tapping their land to Waste you (after you got mana) instead of making you Waste them. Just don't skimp on FoN to beat T1 Blood Moons. Ragavan is the type of card that really creates the urgency to walk into Daze, and by running Dreadnoughts and Shadow for lategame you can ignore the things that would embarass Ragavan (something other Ragavan decks can't always do). Ragavan also helps you recover cards when control decks deal with Dreadnought. Otherwise UB would need something like Bob.

Mr. Safety

06-24-2021, 08:07 AM

I agree on Dark Confidant, it was in an earlier rendition (maybe even the first one?) It's ok to have a disruptive/dig plan for t1 (Thoughtseize, Stifle, Stubborn Denial, Ponder) and then follow it up with a 2 drop. It puts the deck into mid-range territory, which is completely fine. The rub is Force of Will + Dark Confidant blind flips. It won't happen often, but it will happen often enough to lose percentages. The best card is actually Standstill, but that competes with Dress Down for space. It's entirely an awkward setup, even if Dress Down does allow for big dudes for 1 mana.

Clark Kant

06-27-2021, 08:52 AM

SFZ 5-0ed with a very neat Death Dressnought brew...

Creature (10)
4 Death's Shadow
2 Murktide Regent
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Sorcery (8)
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Instant (20)
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Snuff Out
4 Stifle

Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down

Land (18)
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Fatal Push
2 Plague Engineer
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sylvan Library
1 Torpor Orb

Is there any card you would cut from the below shell? I feel like every card below is an automatic 4 of, right?

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Death's Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Wasteland
14 Lands

The 6 flex slots in SFZ’s brew went to...
2 Murktide Regent
2 Snuff Out
2 Berserk

Do you agree with those choices? Do you think Berserk (and sideboard options) is worth the green splash? It clearly worked well for him.

Mr. Safety

06-27-2021, 10:25 AM

I think the green is definitely worth the splash, because Berserk gives Shadow trample. It can win in one turn, which is important without red for Bolts to close out. Abrupt Decay is just as playable as ever, and Sylvan Library is the literal nuts against most blue decks. I like it, I just need the Berserk and Dress Downs to make it happen.

I'm not crazy about Daze in this list, it slows the deck down by at least 1 turn. I would probably change out the Daze's for 2x Stub and 2x Force of Negation maindeck to see if they can do a similar job without slowing mana development.

Clark Kant

07-13-2021, 12:20 PM

Here is how I picture Death Nought post Dress Down and Prismatic Ending..

8 1cc All in threats (4 Nought, 4 Death’s Shadow)
Either a white splash for Esper Sentinel and Mother or Runes or a red splash to also play Dragon Rage and Ragavan as lightning rods to soak up removal before you cast shadow/nought
Tons of cantrips and Confidants (another lightning rod) to help find your cheap threats
4 Thoughtseize to help protect your all in threats.
4 Dress Down as the main combo piece
4 Wasteland + 4 Stifle to let you focus on mana disruption to make your Dazes and Esper Sentinels more powerful.

But I do love Berserk and Sylvan Library and Ignoble Hierarch and 4 Aether Vial if we are playing so many 1cc creatures and lands that make colorless mana.

Perhaps if we drop the cantrips and dazes and adopt a rainbow manabase around 4 Mana Confluence, 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Caverns, 1-2 Urborg, 1-2 Yavimaya, 4 Aether Vial 2-4 Ignoble, 4 Wasteland plus possibly a Saga or two as the only colorless mana producers.

That could work.

Mr. Safety

07-14-2021, 08:22 AM

I'm pretty soft on Dreadnought/Shadow right now, to be completely frank. The blue decks basically have infinite removal right now with Prismatic Ending making such a big impact. UR delver can race us, easily, due to the self-inflicted life loss. The only real advantage is in the combo matchups, which is where UB shadow lives in general anyways. UB Shadow is a much more consistent deck, with fewer deck-building risks.

Am I saying you can't build a Dreath-Nought deck and do well? No, I'm not saying that. But I also think that it's an uphill battle in most matchups, and that doesn't feel good. At the end of the day, Shadow and Dreadnought are just big dumb dudes that take extra work to get online. That doesn't seem very interesting to me currently.

Vacrix

07-14-2021, 11:55 AM

If you want to play Berserk, Plunge into Darkness seems good, more so in Game 1. It can sink for surprise huge Shadow, find Berserk, find Dreadnought or Dress Down and in a combo race where you’re not expecting blockers you can Plunge for Shadow. I played something like this a while back but hadn’t thought of adding Dreadnought.

It does something quite similar for connecting Stifle or Dress Down with Phyrexian Dreadnought.

Plunge can also be played as a black impulse, for example if you’d prefer to Brainstorm and then Plunge for 5-6 to get rid of the cards you don’t need, pick up a counterspell or hit a land drop, etc.

A comparable, Lim-Dul’s Vault is also an instant, also a life sink, but it’s blue is better for Force. Getting the card right away means Plunge can be played as a cantrip, a psuedo-tutor, or a combo piece since it sinks life when you look for a Shadow (you might have it already and you want the Force or Daze). When Lim-Dul’s Vault sinks life, you can miss as well.

Aside, out of curiosity I checked Phyrexian Dreadnought’s creature type for Cavern of Souls shenanigans and the gatherer says it’s creature type is Phyrexian Dreadnought. Nifty, Wizards, making Phyrexian a creature type. I was hoping it was a construct.

Mr. Safety

07-14-2021, 01:05 PM

I've tested Lim-Dul's Vault a few times, it's ok. Not putting the card into hand is kind of a problem because you don't always have a Street Wraith/Brainstorm to get it right away, and the timing of EOT doesn't always work if you are busy doing other more meaningful things to affect the game (removal, counter wars.)

Vacrix

07-15-2021, 03:02 AM

Scroll of Fate is another one I’ve seen played with Dreadnought. You can bait Swords with stuff you don’t need. Never considered playing it with Death’s Shadow tho. Shadow as a morph means you can wait til the ideal time to flip it. You can play both beaters underneath Trinisphere, Chalice at 1, Thalia, etc sounds ideal.

Come to think of it, Illusionary Mask is a 2 drop, tho you can’t bait with it. Being able to sneak Shadow or Nought into play sounds good.

Not sure, but I think that creatures flipped faceup with either Scroll or Mask are special actions. I suppose this game plan is weak against Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Null Rod, Collector Ouphe. But then there is always the main game plan. Mask could free up Dress Down to be played as anti DNT and anti Goblins tech.

Mr. Safety

07-15-2021, 09:57 AM

The issue with being all-in on Scroll is that it plays straight into a Lightning Bolt blowout. Scroll is excellent with Standstill if the matchup allows you to sit with a fistful of cards and convert dead ones into tokens, but if you are playing the 1-for-1 game Scroll walks into Bolt hard. Lightning Bolt is the most played removal in the format and the whole idea of Shadow/Dreadnought is play around that...but Scroll doesn't. It's awkward. Does the combo work? Yes, but you need a plan to utilize scroll outside of just Shadow/Nought combos.

I've been thinking about this deck for a couple days, and the best way to make it work would be to include a 3rd color. That means a couple of very specific deck-building parameters:

1) The deck can no longer support Wasteland without compromising mana
2) It opens up the deck to being soft to Wasteland, which can make it very awkward to hit the land drops necessary to play on curve (Turn t3 Scroll or protected Dreadnought/Shadow)
3a) Once Wasteland is out of the deck, Daze becomes a questionable choice. If I am not actively squeezing opponents mana with Stifle/Wasteland, Daze just sets me back a turn unless I incorporate Standstill and only play Daze post-standstill.
3b) If we aren't playing Wasteland or Daze we naturally push towards the mid-late game, which does not favor Death's Shadow. We are actively taking turns off the clock by whittling down our own life total. It gives opponents windows to just kill us out of nowhere whereas a traditional mid-range blue deck would have their life total as a resource to play longer.
4) If we are playing mid-range we need better than 1-for-1 interaction, we need 2-for-1's. That's hard to achieve when most of our threats cost at least 2 cards to deploy.
5) Conclusion: red is probably the best splash color so we can play less tempo, answer problematic matchups, and be much more combo oriented. We need to do the classic 'count to 20' kind of math that doesn't really interact and instead just tries to get them dead. This means access to good cards like Bolt, KCommand, Abrade, and Pyroblast but also necessitates janky shit like Fling and Temur Battle Rage so we can 'combo kill' our opponents. We're in infect territory now, which isn't a bad thing, but it's a lot different than a Delver or mid-range shell.

I think this deck as UB is a classic case of 'the synergies are all great, but they don't do anything better than an established deck'. As I've written before, the best matchups are combo matchups due to Thoughtseize, counterspells, and a fast clock. This is actually achieved easier by just playing t1 Delver, because we don't need to put together the combo of Stifle/Scroll + Nought or life total<10 + Shadow. Shadow gives some redundancy of having big dumb dudes, but that's it. It doesn't diversify the game plan. When I look to the gold standard of a 2-combo deck that attacks from 2 different angles I always go back to Thopter-Depths from old extended. One used the graveyard and a go-wide token strategy, the other was an evasive one-shot 20/20 kill. Opponent's had to have so many diverse ways of interacting to fight against the inevitability of losing to one of the combos.

If I were to build this deck and play it at a tournament tomorrow, this is how I would do it:

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith

4x Lotus Petal
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Thoughtseize
4x Dress Down
2x Temur Battle Rage

4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents

Sideboard
3x Pyroblast
3x Scroll of Fate
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Force of Negation
1x Duress
2x Abrade

Is that a good deck? Meh, no. It's weak to Wasteland/Daze and I don't even know if 8x protection is enough (TS + FoW.) It would be fun as hell, but not competitive.