No more Legacy on the SCG Tour

[thecrav]

http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/39305_20-SCG-Tour-Update.html

Legacy is dead.
Long live Legacy.

[H]

Well, I was right on the effect, wrong on the time-frame (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33173-New-Format-announced-Pioneer&p=1076839&viewfull=1#post1076839).

Legacy is dead, long live Legacy indeed.

[the Thin White Duke]

So when is the Great Sell-off? I'm hungry for bargains.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So when is the Great Sell-off? I'm hungry for bargains.
PM me.

[BenBleiweiss]

I've been active on the Reddit thread about this, but I'll give the same advice here as I gave there: Don't sell off. I don't think our shift from supporting Legacy at the SCG CON level (instead of the SCG Tour level) is going to long-term affect prices on Legacy staples.

[Wrath of Pie]

So when is the Great Sell-off? I'm hungry for bargains.

When Wizards changes Legacy to an online-only format, so not yet.

[H]

I've never sold anything and I don't plan on starting now (or ever). My kids will get some valuable cards, or a pile of junk. I wish I had some capital to pick up some stuff if people fire-sale it, but times are a bit tough at the moment.

In the mean time, we'll be running our Legacy FNMs until we likely die.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I've been active on the Reddit thread about this, but I'll give the same advice here as I gave there: Don't sell off. I don't think our shift from supporting Legacy at the SCG CON level (instead of the SCG Tour level) is going to long-term affect prices on Legacy staples.

You said "our" are you from SCG? 'Cause I'd really like to hear the explanation for why legacy cards were on sale this weekend but the announcement came today.
Also, doesn't that sale kinda suggest the opposite of what you're claiming here?

[Megadeus]

You said "our" are you from SCG? 'Cause I'd really like to hear the explanation for why legacy cards were on sale this weekend but the announcement came today.
Also, doesn't that sale kinda suggest the opposite of what you're claiming here?

Considering Ben owns SCG as far as I know I'd say yes. I think prices of non RL stuff will fall off, and that RL stuff will fall in the short term, but I think EDH plus legacy still being a popular grassroots format will keep RL stuff at decent prices

[BenBleiweiss]

You said "our" are you from SCG? 'Cause I'd really like to hear the explanation for why legacy cards were on sale this weekend but the announcement came today.
Also, doesn't that sale kinda suggest the opposite of what you're claiming here?

I'm the General Manager of SCG. I plan all card sales and am in charge of our group of pricing department (about 8 people deep).

Last week's weekly sale was our Halloween sale. This week's sale is our 50% off sale.

I *THINK* the sale you're referring to is the #BensBirthdaySale from Tuesday (https://twitter.com/StarCityBen/status/1191731954317713410), where I put all of our actual-scan cards (anything over a certain dollar amount gets scanned individually on our website) on sale. This included cards from Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Arabian Nights (Bazaar, Juzam, Library), Antiquities (Candelabra, Workshop), Legends (Nether Void, The Abyss, The Tabernacle), Urza's Legacy (Monolith Foil), and Promos (Gaea's Cradle).

There were around 160 cards on the sale. Of these, about 80% were Power / Vintage Cards / High End Alpha cards (Shivan Dragons, Nightmares, etc), 10% were Legacy cards, and 10% were Alpha/Beta/Blue UL/FBB duals.

You can get a pretty accurate representation of the types of cards based on what didn't sell, for reference (http://www.starcitygames.com/results?name=scan&go.x=0&go.y=0). For instance, I'd count an Alpha Serra Angel as "Power/Vintage/High End Alpha" and not "Legacy" because, while it's technically legal in Legacy, nobody is buying that card to play in a Legacy deck.

Other Legacy cards (anything below the scan threshold) were not on this sale, and haven't been on sale on our website in quite a while. We are actually selling Dual Lands faster than we're getting them in (http://www.starcitygames.com/results?name=&namematch=AND&text=&oracle=1&textmatch=AND&c_all=All&multicolor=&colormatch=OR&colorexclude=1&card_type_match=OR&crittermatch=OR&r_all=All&s%5B%5D=1003&foil=all&g_all=All&lang%5B%5D=1&cmcop=%3D&cmc=&ccl=0&ccu=99&pwrop=%3D&pwr=&mincost=49.99&maxcost=99999.99&tghop=%3D&tgh=&sort1=4&sort2=1&sort3=10&sort4=0&display=3&numpage=25).

I'm going to have a longer explanation later tonight once I get home from work. If people want to sell out because of our announcement they are welcome to, but I'm going to be up front and say "I wouldn't recommend doing it because you think the prices are going to tank."

[BenBleiweiss]

Considering Ben owns SCG as far as I know I'd say yes. I think prices of non RL stuff will fall off, and that RL stuff will fall in the short term, but I think EDH plus legacy still being a popular grassroots format will keep RL stuff at decent prices

Pete Hoefling owns SCG. I'm the General Manager. I'm just a lot more active on social media than Pete :)

[Megadeus]

Pete Hoefling owns SCG. I'm the General Manager. I'm just a lot more active on social media than Pete :)

Apologies. I knew you were high up.

[KobeBryan]

As a secondary supplier of cards, SCG would not want cards to tank.

[Wrath of Pie]

I'm the General Manager of SCG. I plan all card sales and am in charge of our group of pricing department (about 8 people deep).

You should really make this more obvious, either in your signature or your custom title.

[BenBleiweiss]

Sorry, I'm not much into honorifics :)

[itslarryyo]

Sorry, I'm not much into honorifics :)

Dont make it wierd. Its an identifier so people will know to take your advice with a grain of salt.

[BenBleiweiss]

Dont make it wierd. Its an identifier so people will know to take your advice with a grain of salt.

ROFL https://media.pri.org/s3fs-public/styles/story_main/public/story/images/Scarlett_Letter_web_text.png?itok=iSuEb4wT

[bruizar]

To me the glory days of legacy were those where scg ran video coverage of their legacy games. I watched them almost every weekend on Twitch and I like them a lot better than Wizards’ own coverage. I actually bought a new TV back then specifically to run the SCG games on my tv. I’m very sad to see this happen but I understand the appeal of Pioneer. As with vintage, the legacy young guns have grown old and it is time for a new generation of people who grew up with Magic to get the support from scg. I do hope we get at leadt some semi regular legacy content, be jt in the form of high quality articles or something else.

My fantasy is a tournament setup where a player competes in standard, then day 2 has to compete in Pioneer, then modern, legacy, and finally then vintage, to win the ultimate crown of magic


Edit:
Benbleiweiss: what do you think of Trinity as a solution for the deck prices and card diversity of legacy without requiring the reserved list to be abolished? Imo this would allow new growth in both players and the secondary market for cards that are now outclassed in a 4-off format.
https://www.mtgtrinity.com/format

I have been advocating for Trinity for the preservation of a healthy legacy format. We as a community should proactively modify our format rather than letting it slowly disappear, i’ve seen this happen to Vintage and it was painful to watch that format die even though we had so many discussions on themanadrain about solutions to the reserved list, proxies, collector’s edition, etc etc..

[BenBleiweiss]

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/dt9ny0/additional_transparency_regarding_the_2020_scg/? - Longer explanation of changes.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Called it (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33173-New-Format-announced-Pioneer&p=1076828&viewfull=1#post1076828). It was a fairly obvious direction to take though.

Even if there is a 'Great Legacy Sell-Off', any downward movement in price is temporary as the EDH market would jump on the opportunity and drive the price back up.

[BenBleiweiss]

Yeah it got automodded for some reason. It's up now :)

[Rood]

That's okay. Legacy is still super healthy in my area. We have monthlies...3x weeklies and some huge tournies every couple of months (2k-5k). SCG has been distancing themself from Legacy for some time not surprised to see this change. Maybe this will make staples more available to access

[ESG]

To me, the largest loss will be the semi-regular SCG coverage of Legacy. SCG has the best rigs and the best commentary team in Cedric and Patrick, so although Legacy will continue on elsewhere, it won't be delivered on video the same way, and I will miss that.

[bruizar]

To me, the largest loss will be the semi-regular SCG coverage of Legacy. SCG has the best rigs and the best commentary team in Cedric and Patrick, so although Legacy will continue on elsewhere, it won't be delivered on video the same way, and I will miss that.

Yes, I don't think other formats except for vintage are as exciting to watch. Maybe Cedric and Patrick can give commentary on Eternal Weekend or the MCM tour. The quality of European commentators is really subpar compared to what these guys deliver, but the tournaments itself are spectacular.

Man, I miss the old Bazaar of Moxen tournaments :-)

[sco0ter]

What I really wonder: if prices on Legacy staples have increased by factor 10 during the last 10 years (as stated by Ben Bleiweiss), doesn't this mean that the player pool has increased as well?
I know Commander thrives prices as well, but isn't it paradox that the Legacy player pool (== demand) shrinks, while the prices increase dramatically?
Supply should hardly shrink, I guess, unless people burn their cards.
So, only judging from the card prices of Legacy staples, one would think Legacy would attract more players than a decade ago.

Btw.: Does this affect the European/Asian Legacy scene as well? AFAIK SCG is only active in US.

[H]

What I really wonder: if prices on Legacy staples have increased by factor 10 during the last 10 years (as stated by Ben Bleiweiss), doesn't this mean that the player pool has increased as well?
I know Commander thrives prices as well, but isn't it paradox that the Legacy player pool (== demand) shrinks, while the prices increase dramatically?
Supply should hardly shrink, I guess, unless people burn their cards.
So, only judging from the card prices of Legacy staples, one would think Legacy would attract more players than a decade ago.

Btw.: Does this affect the European/Asian Legacy scene as well? AFAIK SCG is only active in US.

While that makes sense in a vacuum, in actuality, cards are often bought by speculators, collectors and, as you already pointed out, other market segments. Considering how inelastic supply is, no, it does not denote an appreciable rise in number of players.

Also, keep in mind, none of us are getting younger. There is likely a growing segment of Legacy (and Eternal in general) players that, due to life events, simply are not able to make long trips for events or play in numerous events a month/year.

While it is easy to take shots at SCG, it's a business. They have no deontological duty to Legacy. They will do what makes them money. The fact of the matter is, Standard, Pioneer, and Modern are simply more lucrative. Legacy has been and will continue, ever more so, to be in our, the players, hands, not in the hands of any company. Ben and SCG have pretty consistently gone to bat for Eternal, gone to bat against the Reserve List. They kept Legacy in as much as was likely financially feasible, really.

Yet, people here want to take shots at him? Yeah, you know what, I think some people here probably should get labeled, but not Ben.

[sco0ter]

Also, keep in mind, none of us are getting younger. There is likely a growing segment of Legacy (and Eternal in general) players that, due to life events, simply are not able to make long trips for events or play in numerous events a month/year.


So true... I am stilling sitting on my Legacy staples from the mid/late 2000's, always hoping to get to play them again, but the time does not allow any more (due to family).

[thecrav]

Yes, I don't think other formats except for vintage are as exciting to watch. Maybe Cedric and Patrick can give commentary on Eternal Weekend or the MCM tour

I will chip in $50 to this idea of "literally anyone who isn't Randy doing EW coverage"

[Michael Keller]

We are actually selling Dual Lands faster than we're getting them in.

If this is the case, why would Legacy be dropped as a featured format for Opens/etc.? If cost were prohibitive, then selling Duals faster than you're buying them shouldn't be a factor. I don't think you guys, with all due respect, really understand or appreciate just how popular the format is. I think you have an idea, but it's extremely popular. Please don't let the word of mouth from the grinders alter your thoughts on this - because let's be honest: the playing field is far more level in a format as deep as Legacy (which is probably why some trash on it because it's challenging and the variance is a cashing factor). It has this stigma that it's "dying" or is "dead," - which has been the case for ten years - but it isn't, let's not kid ourselves. I've personally never been more excited to play Legacy than right now.

Star City Games has a responsibility as the largest MTG retailer in the United States to their clientele to uphold the standard of all formats. This includes Legacy, and goes beyond the business portion of the company. Think "Miracle on the 34th Street" - sending customers to other stores to get what they need. First, the Legacy Opens were chopped. Then again and again until it was "phased" out. Now, every non-reprinted card prior to 2003...is effectively unplayable. Why can't you guys just *try* it for a year and see what happens? I mean, even if the Legacy Open entry costs were upped to a higher dollar it still wouldn't matter - because people *want* to play Legacy on a bigger stage.

What just baffles me is that there really is a lot of support for Legacy across the country, but you guys just keep dropping it down the totem pole. I honestly wonder what would happen if Pete retracted and ADDED Legacy as the featured format for 2020 - I can almost guarantee that'd be a mega-hit. The barrier for entry into the format is as cheap as its ever been - people are running snow-basics all over the place for God's sake.

You guys are legitimately the one vendor that has the power to revive or hurt the format. I just really, truly want to know why this is happening. And not some PR answer - I'm looking for a straight-shooter POV.

[Megadeus]

I mean classics and such were getting smaller and smaller as far as I know. We can talk about how popular the format is all we want, but numbers and attendance speak for themselves. I tried as hard as I could in Atlanta to keep it going but it's dead here. Pioneer, modern, and just life has killed it.

[Michael Keller]

I mean classics and such were getting smaller and smaller as far as I know. We can talk about how popular the format is all we want, but numbers and attendance speak for themselves. I tried as hard as I could in Atlanta to keep it going but it's dead here. Pioneer, modern, and just life has killed it.

Has anyone actually had a public survey asking the Magic community what they want? Is this even possible? I mean, there's enough SCG articles every day, why can't one be put out asking if you would come out to play in a Legacy Open that's geographically feasible?

Remember when SCG was doing Opens all the time (Legacy), and there were Eternal Extravaganzas and Jupiter Games NELCs? All of those other tournaments were happening really in part because SCG featured Legacy. All it has to do is feature it again and popularity will trickle again.

[spirit of the wretch]

Legacy players don't buy dual lands.
Commander player do. THAT is the popular format.

[BenBleiweiss]

If cost were prohibitive, then selling Duals faster than you're buying them shouldn't be a factor.

As nicely as I can put this, I think you didn't read the entire sentence.


Tomorrow, I’m going to be raising our buy price (but not sell price) on Dual Lands because the Commander demand on these (and many other) Legacy cards far outpaces the supply that we’ve been getting in.

Most Commander players need one copy of some (or even all) Dual Lands. The fact that demand/sales on Dual Lands to Commander players (at one-of) is far outpacing the demand/sales to Legacy Players (2-4 of) should tell you the disparity of overall demand on Magic Cards between Commander players and Legacy players.

[H]

I've said this before, but I guess I need to say it again, the notion of an Open or a Classic, or whatever, to be an end in-itself is very unlikely, in my estimation, as an actual source of realistic profit. So, thinking that SCG should be motivated solely by attendance is to miss the whole point. Now, I don't have access to SCG's P&L statements, but I seriously doubt that Legacy Opens or Classics are anywhere near as lucrative as Standard or Modern ones, let alone the unknown of Pioneer.

Why? Because of the amount of supplemental revenue generated at these other events, the volume of cards that can be sold vs. single Duals or the like. Sure, they might be higher ticket items, but they don't move the way new stuff does, not to mention actual sealed product and so on.

In reality, SCG was likely taking in less money, even at "bigger" Legacy events than a given Standard event. I can't prove that, but if it were the case that Legacy was so lucrative, are we to surmise that SCG decided to leave that money on the table? Not likely.

[bruizar]

I think that's just more upside growth potential in Pioneer singles than there is willing buyers in legacy.

A card like Den Proteector can go from 15 cent to 15 dollar in no time.

[Michael Keller]

As nicely as I can put this, I think you didn't read the entire sentence.

Most Commander players need one copy of some (or even all) Dual Lands. The fact that demand/sales on Dual Lands to Commander players (at one-of) is far outpacing the demand/sales to Legacy Players (2-4 of) should tell you the disparity of overall demand on Magic Cards between Commander players and Legacy players.

But how are you delineating from a Commander player from a Legacy player when they buy a dual from you online? Or anywhere, for that matter? Some Legacy decks need only one dual, or some players may only need one more dual for whatever reason - so just because someone buys one doesn't mean they're a Commander player.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

But how are you delineating from a Commander player from a Legacy player when they buy a dual from you online? Or anywhere, for that matter? Some Legacy decks need only one dual, or some players may only need one more dual for whatever reason - so just because someone buys one doesn't mean they're a Commander player.

Four of vs one of.

[Michael Keller]

Four of vs one of.

You're telling me everyone that goes on SCG's website to buy a dual is always buying four at a time?

I just don't buy it. Here's the problem. Legacy has changed - and I think for the better, in a lot of ways. The issue is that with a limited number of Opens, you really can't say, "Well, Legacy wasn't successful because X players showed up." I mean, in Team Constructed, you were using Legacy, so if that's the case and Team Constructed was pulling good numbers, why eviscerate Legacy?

My point is that I think Legacy needs more exposure. The Legacy of today is not the Legacy of 2015 or 2011 or 2008. It deserves a chance to be showcased, because there hasn't been a reinvestment with it - it was purposefully shanked slowly over the course of five years - ever since GP:NJ (which I don't care what anyone says - was one of the best and largest GPs in history with some of the most broken cards in history).

I know places where Legacy outperforms Modern and Standard, straight-up. I was talking to someone at EW who told me in Texas they get 50-60 every Wednesday. Legacy is, IMO, the most fun format to watch and play because of how challenging it is and the interactions it has. Price shouldn't be an issue. Two of the most played decks in the format use what, two Bayous and the other a set of basic snow-lands?

Come on.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You're telling me everyone that goes on SCG's website to buy a dual is always buying four at a time?

What you asked is how they would know, the answer is anyone buying more than one copy of any card in the same order pretty much tells you what format they bought for. If they buy one sea and two ponders, what is that order for? If they buy a handful of singletons, probable commander. If you take anything away from my post here it's that SCG is full of scumbags.

[Michael Keller]

What you asked is how they would know, the answer is anyone buying more than one copy of any card in the same order pretty much tells you what format they bought for. If they buy one sea and two ponders, what is that order for? If they buy a handful of singletons, probable commander. If you take anything away from my post here it's that SCG is full of scumbags.

Yeah, but you still can't delineate why someone buys something for some reason. Just because someone buys a certain quantity doesn't mean anything. If they buy a handful of singletons, maybe they needed them to complete sets. That's too hard to tell. The real tell is in attendance. But seriously - if they would just HOST more Legacy events, they would see an increase in those numbers because people WANT to play Legacy.

It's always been one of the stigmas I've hated about Legacy: "players are just more lazy or busy so they won't come out to the local." But if there's an Open in town, of course they'll go because, well, it's SCG. And when there's more Legacy Opens, the more people will practice for them. Which means higher local attendance. But if you push the usual crap like Standard and to a lesser extent Modern, of course those numbers will be supported at higher levels and attendance will be higher locally for those formats - not by choice - but because it's what they gearing towards doing well at because it's what's pushed at them.

I get that WOTC has a hand in this, but this is SCG. There should be a push for Legacy because it has always gotten the shaft even though people consistently want to play it. You always hear people say "Legacy has the most devoted players." Well, it's because they are FORCED to play in what few tournaments (big ones) there are in a calendar year to play in!

[Megadeus]

What you asked is how they would know, the answer is anyone buying more than one copy of any card in the same order pretty much tells you what format they bought for. If they buy one sea and two ponders, what is that order for? If they buy a handful of singletons, probable commander. If you take anything away from my post here it's that SCG is full of scumbags.
Considering SCG long supported legacy and has continually called for reserve list abolishment I'd definitely not call them scum bags. Legacy never would've been what it became if it weren't for them. At the end of the day though they are a business. And legacy events draw less players which means less people at events to buy from/sell to along with the fact that many legacy players don't buy nearly as many cards. It's disappointing that they've come to this conclusion and I hope that scgcon legacy events turn out to be sweet, but this really is probably the right move from a business standpoint

[H]

Considering SCG long supported legacy and has continually called for reserve list abolishment I'd definitely not call them scum bags. Legacy never would've been what it became if it weren't for them. At the end of the day though they are a business. And legacy events draw less players which means less people at events to buy from/sell to along with the fact that many legacy players don't buy nearly as many cards. It's disappointing that they've come to this conclusion and I hope that scgcon legacy events turn out to be sweet, but this really is probably the right move from a business standpoint

Indeed, I couldn't agree with you more.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

At the end of the day though they are a business.
Yeah, we let business get away with too much.

[KobeBryan]

What you asked is how they would know, the answer is anyone buying more than one copy of any card in the same order pretty much tells you what format they bought for. If they buy one sea and two ponders, what is that order for? If they buy a handful of singletons, probable commander. If you take anything away from my post here it's that SCG is full of scumbags.

When there is a viable demand and no supply, history has taught us that someone would take up the mantle.

[ronco]

I've never been to an SCG event, and I've been to exactly 1 CFB event. There's my dog in the fight. If a company moves away from it its likely because the alternative is more profitable. I don't fault them for this as much as I may not like it. Its just the way business is. One of two things are happening.
1) If legacy is as strong and popular as we want it to be we wouldn't be having this discussion because it would be thriving and generating income for the event organizers.
2) Or, EVEN IF it IS as strong as we think it is, that doesn't mean it isn't more profitable than other formats that we think are boring or bad. If standard (Oko be thy name) is popular, then as a business its in their best interest to support it to stay afloat. It doesn't matter if we think the format is shit or not. If players bring enough dollars into it, thats the business decision. Done.

To the whole duals going to legacy vs commander thing. I guess I'm a bootlicker if i think that maybe, just maybe, the business that is in business to sell singles and manage tournaments has a grasp on the demographic on their customers and might know where the demand is. I don't have proof of it and i really don't care. Of the formats that play duals there is vintage, legacy, EDH, kitchen table, old school, and I guess cube. How is it that you are certain that legacy is the primary driver of that or any other card? Players need 4 per deck (or at least more than 1) but are there X times as many players in legacy as the others? What about the velocity of purchases? If commander is the hot format and they sell 20 duals to 20 players, thats better than selling 10 duals to 5 legacy players (because snow basics and all that) and thats where the capital and support is going to go. Much as I dislike it that the player base has "spoken" with their wallets and thus that is what the TOs will support.

Or maybe I'm just missing something within this thread. But I don't think I am.

[Megadeus]

Yeah, we let business get away with too much.

We're talking about Magic the Gathering, not some shady corporation polluting the rivers or selling poison to it's customers. Don't act so entitled that you think people should run events at massive losses just to make a minority of card game players happy. SCG already started that their cons will be the place that they will continue to support legacy. If we want to show them that they are wrong and that legacy is thriving then we need to show up to events and prove everything we say here. At my local level I tried to make the argument that the legacy community was passionate and thriving too and after a month and a half the events quickly dwindled from 20 or so to 8 if we were lucky. And that was in the city that just hosted what may have been the final legacy Grand Prix.

Tldr; if you want SCG to really see that legacy is worth supporting then prove it

[Michael Keller]

We're talking about Magic the Gathering, not some shady corporation polluting the rivers or selling poison to it's customers. Don't act so entitled that you think people should run events at massive losses just to make a minority of card game players happy. SCG already started that their cons will be the place that they will continue to support legacy. If we want to show them that they are wrong and that legacy is thriving then we need to show up to events and prove everything we say here. At my local level I tried to make the argument that the legacy community was passionate and thriving too and after a month and a half the events quickly dwindled from 20 or so to 8 if we were lucky. And that was in the city that just hosted what may have been the final legacy Grand Prix.

Tldr; if you want SCG to really see that legacy is worth supporting then prove it

It’s the other way around, unfortunately. There’s no way for SCG or any national retailer to know what’s going on at “Brick and Mortar Shop X” every Saturday. They need to be the front runner to push the format so that people can play, test and tweak for larger events like an Open.

If the calendar shows six Legacy Opens, then people will just play more Legacy. This is really about the RL and duals. Everything else is really affordable, for the most part.

[itslarryyo]

It’s the other way around, unfortunately. There’s no way for SCG or any national retailer to know what’s going on at “Brick and Mortar Shop X” every Saturday. They need to be the front runner to push the format so that people can play, test and tweak for larger events like an Open.
Its their job to make money, not provide an event, at a loss, for you to test at.
Thats ridiculous.

[Wrath of Pie]

It’s the other way around, unfortunately. There’s no way for SCG or any national retailer to know what’s going on at “Brick and Mortar Shop X” every Saturday. They need to be the front runner to push the format so that people can play, test and tweak for larger events like an Open.

If the calendar shows six Legacy Opens, then people will just play more Legacy. This is really about the RL and duals. Everything else is really affordable, for the most part.

If you want Legacy to thrive, you need to take the same approach as the Vintage players have and embrace Magic Online as the primary outlet instead of expecting corportations to do the work for you.

[Michael Keller]

Its their job to make money, not provide an event, at a loss, for you to test at.
Thats ridiculous.

No, it’s not ridiculous. By any stretch, thanks. If I play competitive Magic, I’m using my LGS as a gateway to test for larger events with people who share a competitive affinity for Legacy. If there are more Legacy Opens or larger Legacy events forthcoming, that means more testing and local event support for Legacy. That’s just fact, friend.

When there’s exponentially fewer Opens, that means less interest overall in a format that offers less high-end reward outside of the LGS where prizes can be much more enticing - but now that they’re gone, showing up *hoping* to hit eight people and win fifteen in credit isn’t my cup of tea.

I’m referring to the fallout from such a decision. Which, wouldn’t you know it, will affect LGS Legacy support. How many Vintage events in the US a year? Right, and how many LGSs that run Vintage events weekly? Thought so. Legacy picked up when SCG picked it up. Stores - slowly - will just drop it in the coming months now that it’s axed.

I defended Legacy for years. I’ve been playing since the start and ten years before that. Look at my join date. That’s 1.5 right there. But I see what’s happening, and unfortunately, no one is competing with SCG for national (or regional) superiority as the premier organizer. It’ll take a miracle to save the format now. I’m cashing out - because the RL - isn’t going anywhere.

[KobeBryan]

Well. This forum is going to die as well

[Seymour_Asses]

Hopefully not, I just got here!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Tldr; if you want SCG to really see that legacy is worth supporting then prove it

You missed where they put expensive legacy cards on sale the weekend before they announced they'd stop supporting legacy.
Or, lol, you bought Ben's explanation that it's ok, because 900 dollar Tabernacles were only part of the sale.

[Airwave]

Hopefully not, I just got here!

If you'll keep posting it'll stay alive 😉 I'm sorry for the US legacy scene. Hopefully Europe will survive, glad we have MCM tournaments, which are great. Locally legacy is doing fine here as well, fortunately!

[Wrath of Pie]

Well. This forum is going to die as well
The Mana Drain seems to still be around, The Source can survive too.

[phonics]

My fantasy is a tournament setup where a player competes in standard, then day 2 has to compete in Pioneer, then modern, legacy, and finally then vintage, to win the ultimate crown of magic


Worlds (or whatever the equivalent is called now) would be so much cooler if they made it a longer event with a day for each constructed (or half one year half another or something) so they would get to show off some of the history of the game. Their initial reasons for shunning legacy for card availability is sort of moot now since they are moving towards digital tournaments. Right now eternal magic is almost like the shady backroom of magic that the ivory tower of supported formats pretends doesnt exist.

[Michael Keller]

The funny thing is that the majority of MTG cards ARE Eternal cards. So if all of these cards are just stockpiling into Eternal after they rotate out if Standard, it seems asinine to just pretend like that’s not a problem. Once they rotate out of Standard, these cards enter an abyss with thousands of other cards.

Then what?

[kombatkiwi]

The funny thing is that the majority of MTG cards ARE Eternal cards. So if all of these cards are just stockpiling into Eternal after they rotate out if Standard, it seems asinine to just pretend like that’s not a problem. Once they rotate out of Standard, these cards enter an abyss with thousands of other cards.

Then what?

Well, they rotate into pioneer?

I don't think wizards is too concerned about some dude who played affinity in standard 15-20 years ago worried that now there might not be any format where his old cards are playable (and even then, modern is still a thing, how far back do you want to go?)

[Seymour_Asses]

If you'll keep posting it'll stay alive 😉 I'm sorry for the US legacy scene. Hopefully Europe will survive, glad we have MCM tournaments, which are great. Locally legacy is doing fine here as well, fortunately!
Will do! Hopefully the US scene can come together and organize some bigger tournaments now that SCG has fucked off.

[JDK]

Or you know, we as Magic players could boycott MTG until the reserved list gets axed...but that's like telling crack addicts to stop consuming. :rolleyes:

[itslarryyo]

Or you know, we as Magic players could boycott MTG until the reserved list gets axed...but that's like telling crack addicts to stop consuming. :rolleyes:

At this point might as well jusy play unsanctioned proxy and ef the reserved list.
Its not like wizards will come yo your house and tear up the proxies. Nor is there a bunch of support where shit needs to be sanctioned. Isnt it what vintage?

[kinda]

At this point might as well jusy play unsanctioned proxy and ef the reserved list.
Its not like wizards will come yo your house and tear up the proxies. Nor is there a bunch of support where shit needs to be sanctioned. Isnt it what vintage?

Yup we do this, works very well. Printed proxies r required. 40+ people per month.

[H]

Wow, I can't imagine how one might come to a notion that somehow SCG has a moral and/or ethical duty to run Legacy events.

Even, I, a generally anti-business person, can't even fathom the sense of entitlement from which such a stance.

The real problem isn't SCG, or the reserve list, rather it's this entitled sense, where playing Legacy for the sake of playing Legacy just isn't good enough for some of you. Local 8 mans? Not good enough. Store credit? Not good enough. Guess what? Then Legacy isn't "good enough" for you.

Lets just be real frank about it. If your local community players only come out when some big prize is on the line, then your local community sucks. If you only come out when some big prize is on the line, then you are the exact reason why that community is in the state that it's in. You want to know why Legacy, then, is dying where you are at? Look in the mirror. Not at SCG.

You pine for some corporate savior, when out of the other side of your mouth you say how terrible and bad those companies are. You say, "LOL, forums dead now" as if that flag doesn't keep getting ran up the pole and yet, not only is it still here, but you are still here proclaiming it's death.

If you think this forum is dead, do everyone a favor and prove it by taking your low-quality posts somewhere else. If you think Legacy is dead because your local isn't good enough for you, do us all a favor and actually go sell your collection to someone who is interested in growing and maintaining a local community, who actually does want to play Legacy for the sake of playing Legacy.

Why won't SCG support Legacy? Funny, it's the same reason why the talking heads here who are so critical of SCG won't. But, yeah, it's SCG that's the problem. How dare SCG not subsidize your shitty behavior!

Do everyone a favor. Get away from the keyboard. Go out and buy a mirror. And then take a good look at yourself.

[BenBleiweiss]

If the calendar shows six Legacy Opens, then people will just play more Legacy. This is really about the RL and duals. Everything else is really affordable, for the most part.

We ran Legacy Opens for a decade. This hasn't been true for the past five years (fully half of that time). Why would this turn around now?

[pettdan]

Here is my positive take on the state. I am positive by nature, and I think most people have a negative mindset which tends to overweigh in the discussion. Just like when the London Mulligan was introduced, remember, and any previous change in the game's history - some people who have trouble dealing with change get scared and start telling everyone about their worries, which are overwhelmingly negative [edit: ok, a lot of it is well-founded, but still]. I'm just overwhelmingly positive so consider my post in relation to that. Take it with a grain of salt! :)

Also, I don't have much time to structure this post, so sorry if it's a bit unpolished and rambling in places, got to get back to work asap. I just thought there were too many perspectives missing in the discussion.

Edit: I thought this was the thread "the demise of magic", maybe should have posted there but noticed too late. Anyway, I think they are close enough that this is still relevant.

Good things

Legacy as a format, from a play-experience perspective, is in a good state, a small ban will bring it back to what many considered the best it's ever been about 6 months ago. And many experienced magic players seem to think that Legacy is the most interesting and rewarding format to play [edit: I keep hearing this even by commentators on Standard and Modern streams].

Magic as a card game is experiencing a boom, I believe, with a new inflow of players from Arena and a new format that bridges the gap between Standard and eternal formats. As the inflow of players to the game and the flow of players from Standard to eternal formats is improved, this makes for an improved flow of new players into Legacy.

So far, so good.

Bad things
The problems from the legacy perspective are the reserved list preventing growth and with a new format this old format gets a bit less attention. Let's consider these challenges for a few seconds. Let's break those [two] things down, quickly.

The reserved list is losing some relevance with recent printings. This trend will continue.

A) duals are less necessary with printings such as Fabled Passage, and to a higher degree Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista. We still haven't seen what these cards can do, since a certain crucible of worlds-planeswalker is playing games with the format.

B) New cards are even replacing old cards from the reserved-list by altering their functionality, see Deep Forest Hermit and Collector Ouphe, and

C) there are new powerful cards that widen the range of powerful cards in a way that opens up for strategies that don't depend on reserved list cards (Narset, Teferi, Oko, Echo of Eons, Urza - many fit in category B as well). New, or old, cards like Death's Shadow can also open up reasons to play painlands or other non-reserved list cards. With WotC's recent power creep jump this becomes much more impactful. Several archetypes run fully without RL cards (I'll just mention DnT and Shadow, but I think there are more and also it's an area that can be explored). Edit: We're even getting a range of fetchable alternatives to OG-duals, at any point WotC could choose to include a full replacement with some balancing effect to a Commander-product.

D) If there is a price decrease because of people selling out of Legacy (only small effect likely since EDH drives prices), because of a coming recession or anything, this may make investors more wary of investing in these cards which makes them more accessible to players. So even a price drop would probably be a good thing for the format. Edit: on this topic, I wouldn't be surprised to see a reversed effect of the supposed influx of BitCoin-money from 2018 as those investors start getting rid of their cards, but that's just very loose speculation.

And regarding the new format:
The current new format Pioneer is getting a lot of attention. Like I mentioned above, I see it as a bridge from Standard into eternal formats. This will probably cause a short-term drop in legacy attendance, and all other formats, since people try this new format out. This is a net positive for the game, and it seems very pessimistic to believe this will ruin other formats, the closest formats Standard and Modern will probably lose some, but again, this will make Magic playable for more people as I think a lot of Standard players get burned by cards becoming useless every other year. As the format stabilizes it will be less exciting, I'm sure it will be fun and keep seeing play, but Legacy and formerly Extended have been my favorite format for the past 20-ish years and I don't see super-standard changing this any long-term way, it just offers a bit more variation, and I expect most Legacy players will stay with the format. Again, it will just create a bridge for bringing standard players into Pioneer and then further into Modern and then Legacy as they notice what the different formats have to offer.

What to do
- Support content creators that you appreciate. Become a content creator if you wish. Engage, or keep engaging, with the format you like.
- Attend tournaments that you appreciate, especially the SCG convention that Ben Bleiweiss mentioned above, also Legacy GP's, LGS tournament and other 3rd party tournaments like MCM in Europe, Hareruya in Japan or the Leaving a Legacy tournaments in the USA. Edit: and remember that interacting with other people is the main point of this game, even if I think it's the best game that I've played by far. Edit: and as Wrath of Pie mentions in the next comment, MTGO is working great, no RL problems there.
- If you have more than one deck, offer to lend it out to people in your surrounding area. Tell them. [edit: consider making necessary arrangements in order not to get burned, setup rules that you are comfortable with]
- Host local tournaments yourself if you wish. Edit: allowing proxies is one avenue to making this work, letting anyone join in the fun. This also allows you to run events with your own banlist, letting people try new or old fun and crazy things.
- Keep an eye open for budget decks, for yourself or to recommend to new players. Contribute to the resources that exist on this topic.
- Don't keep obsessing over how the format is dying, it's not dying and it won't die because you say so, but saying so surely won't help [edit: to be clear, say what you want, I don't mind, just giving some perspective on negative comments, they are not all, here's a positive comment]. Not that it really matters much. A few players sell out of cards, prices drop, new people join. Hopefully prices of legacy staples stay low, enabling more people to join. But I'm not sure if that's even likely.

[Wrath of Pie]

I think having a vibrant MTGO scene is going to be very important in the future, because the cards are far more affordable on that medium compared to paper and even with all the disadvantages it has it is hard to compete with being able to play on your schedule via leagues.

When I can read about Vintage every week on MTGGoldfish and not Legacy, that is a huge impediment to Legacy.

[Michael Keller]

Here is my positive take on the state. I am positive by nature, and I think most people have a negative mindset which tends to overweigh in the discussion. Just like when the London Mulligan was introduced, remember, and any previous change in the game's history - some people who have trouble dealing with change get scared and start telling everyone about their worries, which are overwhelmingly negative. I'm just overwhelmingly positive so consider my post in relation to that. Take it with a grain of salt! :)

Also, I don't have much time to structure this post, so sorry if it's a bit unpolished and rambling in places, got to get back to work asap. I just thought there were too many perspective missing in the discussion.

Good things

Legacy as a format, from a play-experience perspective, is in a good state, a small ban will bring it back to what many considered the best it's ever been about 6 months ago. And many experienced magic players seem to think that Legacy is the most interesting and rewarding format to play.

Magic as a card game is experiencing a boom, I believe, with a new inflow of players from Arena and a new format that bridges the gap between Standard and eternal formats. As the inflow of players to the game and the flow of players from Standard to eternal formats is improved, this makes for an improved flow of new players into Legacy.

So far, so good.

The problems from the legacy perspective are the reserved list preventing growth and with a new format this old format gets a bit less attention. Let's consider these challenges for a few seconds. Let's break those two things down, quickly.

Bad things
The reserved list is losing some relevance with recent printings. This trend will continue.

A) duals are less necessary with printings such as Fabled Passage, and to a higher degree Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista. We still haven't seen what these cards can do, since a certain crucible of worlds-planeswalker is playing games with the format.

B) New cards are even replacing old cards from the reserved-list by altering their functionality, see Deep Forest Hermit and Collector Ouphe, and

C) there are new powerful cards that widen the range of powerful cards in a way that opens up for strategies that don't depend on reserved list cards (Narset, Teferi, Oko, Echo of Eons, Urza - many fit in category B as well). New, or old, cards like Death's Shadow can also open up reasons to play painlands or other non-reserved list cards. With WotC's recent power creep jump this becomes much more impactful. Several archetypes run fully without RL cards (I'll just mention DnT and Shadow, but I think there are more and also it's an area that can be explored).

D) If there is a price decrease because of people selling out of Legacy (only small effect likely since EDH drives prices), because of a coming recession or anything, this may make investors more weary of investing in these cards which makes them more accessible to players. So even a price drop would probably be a good thing for the format.

E) The current new format Pioneer is getting a lot of attention. Like I mentioned above, I see it as a bridge from Standard into eternal formats. This will probably cause a short-term drop in legacy attendance, and all other formats, since people try this new format out. This is a net positive for the game, and it seems very pessimistic to belive this will ruin other formats, the closest formats Standard and Modern will probably lose some, but again, this will make Magic playable for more people as I think a lot of Standard players get burned by cards becoming useless every other year. As the format stabilizes it will be less exciting, I'm sure it will be fun and keep seeing play, but Legacy and formerly Extended have been my favorit format for the past 20-ish years and I don't see super-standard changing this any long-term way, it just offers a bit more variation, and I expect most Legacy players will stay with the format. Again, it will just create bridge for bringing standard players into Pioneer and then further into Modern and then Legacy as they notice what the different formats have to offer.

What to do
- Support content creators that you appreciate. Become a content creator if you wish. Engage, or keep engaging, with the format you like.
- Attend tournaments that you appreciate, especially the SCG convention that Ben Bleiweiss mentioned above, also Legacy GP's, LGS tournament and other 3rd party tournaments like MCM in Europe, Hareruya in Japan or the Leaving a Legacy tournaments in the USA.
- If you have more than one deck, offer to lend it out to people in your surrounding area. Tell them.
- Host local tournaments yourself if you wish.
- Keep an eye open for budget decks, for yourself or to recommend to new players. Contribute to the resources that exist on this topic.
- Don't keep obessessing over how the format is dying, it's not dying and it won't die because you say so, but saying so surely won't help. Not that it really matters much. A few players sell out of cards, prices drop, new people join. Hopefully prices of legacy staples stay low, enabling more people to join. But I'm not sure if that's even likely.

I can see what your points are, but I still don't believe the onus is on players to "keep a format afloat." This has been the problem with Legacy for years. It's always the brick and mortar or LGSs trying to push the format locally when a few folks ask them to run events or show up to play. I get one's civic duty, but why should that onus fall on Legacy players as opposed to Standard and Modern players who don't need to worry about that problem? That's not fair at all, regardless of "price barrier."

If these formats are officially sanctioned constructed formats by WOTC/Hasbro, then why the hell are we supposed to get off our asses to do their job for them? Why are they just left in the shadows with public perception that they're always "dying" and kept barely alive? My point is that if everyone believes that these formats are "dying" - then Wizards needs to end them now as opposed to drawing this out.

Or...end the RL and no one would need to worry about Legacy “firing” at locals. Something needs to be done.

[pettdan]

I can see what your points are, but I still don't believe the onus is on players to "keep a format afloat." This has been the problem with Legacy for years. It's always the brick and mortar or LGSs trying to push the format locally when a few folks ask them to run events or show up to play. I get one's civic duty, but why should that onus fall on Legacy players as opposed to Standard and Modern players who don't need to worry about that problem? That's not fair at all, regardless of "price barrier."

If these formats are officially sanctioned constructed formats by WOTC/Hasbro, then why the hell are we supposed to get off our asses to do their job for them? Why are they just left in the shadows with public perception that they're always "dying" and kept barely alive? My point is that if everyone believes that these formats are "dying" - then Wizards needs to end them now as opposed to drawing this out.

Or...end the RL and no one would need to worry about Legacy “firing” at locals. Something needs to be done.

I'll try to keep this short (third attempt now). This is what might happen.

Legacy needs some short-term stimulation, it will do fine, the community will survive and be fun, great and healthy. WotC needed to focus most of their resources on Arena, their number one strategic challenge. It seems to be paying off, perhaps, we'll see how it develops. New players join, and old players rejoin, it will spread also to Legacy, the best competitive format perhaps. 3rd party actors can benefit from Legacy events and the secondary market. Later, WotC can divide resources and put some more towards older formats. A thriving online product gives them more financial muscles. Stimulating the wider game, or the eco-system around the game, is good for the game, so it's good for them.

They may not need to abolish the reserved list, just continue making it more optional to use it. Perhaps. Everything in this post is very much perhaps.
Edit: I just remember another factor that challenges the reserved list. Will add to above post. High quality proxies/fakes/counterfeits also have a lowering effect on prices. I'm not saying I like them, but they do challenge high RL prices. Suppose there were indistinguishable fakes, what would a dual then be worth? The value would drop significantly, WotC might not be able to do something about it, and suddenly the price barrier from entry into Legacy is gone.

And I agree with Wrath of Pie on MTGO, added a comment.

[bruizar]

I can see what your points are, but I still don't believe the onus is on players to "keep a format afloat." This has been the problem with Legacy for years. It's always the brick and mortar or LGSs trying to push the format locally when a few folks ask them to run events or show up to play. I get one's civic duty, but why should that onus fall on Legacy players as opposed to Standard and Modern players who don't need to worry about that problem? That's not fair at all, regardless of "price barrier."

If these formats are officially sanctioned constructed formats by WOTC/Hasbro, then why the hell are we supposed to get off our asses to do their job for them? Why are they just left in the shadows with public perception that they're always "dying" and kept barely alive? My point is that if everyone believes that these formats are "dying" - then Wizards needs to end them now as opposed to drawing this out.

Or...end the RL and no one would need to worry about Legacy “firing” at locals. Something needs to be done.

IMO the best thing that can be done is change the format from Legacy to Trinity.
1) The reserved list _will_ _not_ _go_ _away_ _ever_ because of promissory estoppel (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/promissory_estoppel.asp).
2) Legalizing CE/IE used to be an option for many years, but CE/IE has become incredibly expensive (http://www.starcitygames.com/catalog/category/Collectors+Edition) as well due to Old School.
3) Legacy is 40% more expensive than Trinity (https://www.mtgtrinity.com/format) , and Trinity preserves archetypes we all love while opening new avenues for innovation.

[Michael Keller]

IMO the best thing that can be done is change the format from Legacy to Trinity.
1) The reserved list _will_ _not_ _go_ _away_ _ever_ because of promissory estoppel (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/promissory_estoppel.asp).
2) Legalizing CE/IE used to be an option for many years, but CE/IE has become incredibly expensive (http://www.starcitygames.com/catalog/category/Collectors+Edition) as well due to Old School.
3) Trinity (https://www.mtgtrinity.com/format) is 40% more expensive than Trinity, and Trinity preserves archetypes we all love while opening new avenues for innovation.

Just for clarification (and hilarity): Is it possible to sue to get them to abolish it? I mean, if collectors are saying they'll sue, can players do the same?

[bruizar]

Just for clarification (and hilarity): Is it possible to sue to get them to abolish it? I mean, if collectors are saying they'll sue, can players do the same?

Perhaps someone could make a case for creating a foundation that handles the official management of eternal (vintage/legacy) to stop the negligence and mismanagement of these game formats, since they have said repeatedly that they do not test for vintage and legacy, and they have also outsourced the judge program to third party. WOTC could license out the intellectual property of reserved list game assets.

This way, that third party company could reprint reserved list cards, such that WOTC won't be breaking the reserved list, but the third party company would, which gives WOTC an out to the reserved list promise. That's as creative as I can think of a solution, but it probably won't happen.

[Michael Keller]

Perhaps someone could make a case for creating a foundation that handles the official eternal rules (vintage/legacy) to stop the negligence and mismanagement of these game formats, since they have said repeatedly that they do not test for vintage and legacy, and they have also outsourced the judge program to third party.

It's intriguing, because I truly wonder if litigation would be the way forward. Everyone just keeps saying collectors would sue, but 1.) There's no real merit to that, because no collector I know of or heard of has come forward caring enough to say they would sue and actually follow through, and 2.) Even if that were the case, one would assume that if collectors could sue, players could do the same via class-action to force them to make that change.

[BenBleiweiss]

1) The reserved list _will_ _not_ _go_ _away_ _ever_ because of promissory estoppel (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/promissory_estoppel.asp).

This is stated as fact, but it's not a fact. It's the THREAT of a lawsuit (using Promissory Estoppel) that keeps the reserve list from being abolished. If HASBRO felt that the cost (both in litigation fees and community will) was worth it, the Reserve List would be gone tomorrow. In this case, the cost of successfully litigating a potential lawsuit is probably more costly than the money made from reprinting the cards. I believe this is the only reason the Reserve List hasn't been abolished (it's not financially salubrious).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

IMO the best thing that can be done is change the format from Legacy to Trinity.
1) The reserved list _will_ _not_ _go_ _away_ _ever_ because of promissory estoppel (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/promissory_estoppel.asp).
Ok, legal eagle, explain my foil Dreadnoughts.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Just for clarification (and hilarity): Is it possible to sue to get them to abolish it? I mean, if collectors are saying they'll sue, can players do the same?

Yes, as you can sue anyone for anything if you can offer up an explanation for how it's damaging you.
Winning? Highly Doubtful.

[Michael Keller]

Yes, as you can sue anyone for anything if you can offer up an explanation for how it's damaging you.
Winning? Highly Doubtful.

There has to be a way around it. A collector can't just sue just because they collect Magic cards. A judge would probably laugh that out of court, because there's no way to quantify loss or damage - those cards could stay the same in value or possibly increase.

[H]

This is stated as fact, but it's not a fact. It's the THREAT of a lawsuit (using Promissory Estoppel) that keeps the reserve list from being abolished. If HASBRO felt that the cost (both in litigation fees and community will) was worth it, the Reserve List would be gone tomorrow. In this case, the cost of successfully litigating a potential lawsuit is probably more costly than the money made from reprinting the cards. I believe this is the only reason the Reserve List hasn't been abolished (it's not financially salubrious).

I've said this for years. Not to mention there is a facile manner to circumvent it that the list itself, being that they are free to sell the IP to any company they want, who is then not bound to any promises made by Wizards. Likely even a shell-corporation of Hasbro itself likely works fine.

But indeed, that still plays into the threat of lawsuit. And like you say, it's still not a great financial endeavor. Standard and Limited legal sets are the cash-cows.


Also, the notion that engaging, building and maintaining a local scene is "Wizard's job" or "SCG's job" is, well, I don't have any words (that won't get me banned) for what it is. It's quite humorous to see what mental hoops people will jump through to avoid the cognitive dissonance of failing to take on personal responsibility. Imagine thinking that a company should take on the financial burden of subsidizing your anti-community, profit-driven preferences. It's pretty ironic, people complaining that they'll only personally go where the money is, but will blast Wizards or SCG for doing the same. Like I said, some people should invest a mirror. How dare Wizards have there be a format and not throw money at me to play it!

[Michael Keller]

I've said this for years. Not to mention there is a facile manner to circumvent it that the list itself, being that they are free to sell the IP to any company they want, who is then not bound to any promises made by Wizards. Likely even a shell-corporation of Hasbro itself likely works fine.

But indeed, that still plays into the threat of lawsuit. And like you say, it's still not a great financial endeavor. Standard and Limited legal sets are the cash-cows.


Also, the notion that engaging, building and maintaining a local scene is "Wizard's job" or "SCG's job" is, well, I don't have any words (that won't get me banned) for what it is. It's quite humorous to see what mental hoops people will jump through to avoid the cognitive dissonance of failing to take on personal responsibility. Imagine thinking that a company should take on the financial burden of subsidizing your anti-community, profit-driven preferences. It's pretty ironic, people complaining that they'll only personally go where the money is, but will blast Wizards or SCG for doing the same. Like I said, some people should invest a mirror. How dare Wizards have there be a format and not throw money at me to play it!

Threatening legal action for what? Wizards/Hasbro own the list, they can do whatever they want to with it. This is one time where "going back on their word" is congruent with changing of the times.

I'm quite certain if the Constitution of the United States of America can receive amendments, so can a Magic: the Gathering Reserved List.

[BenBleiweiss]

Threatening legal action for what? Wizards/Hasbro own the list, they can do whatever they want to with it. This is one time where "going back on their word" is congruent with changing of the times.

I'm quite certain if the Constitution of the United States of America can receive amendments, so can a Magic: the Gathering Reserved List.

It has already, several times. https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Reserved_List

[Michael Keller]

It has already, several times. https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Reserved_List

Yeah Ben, but I'm talking about more adjustments to break the issues that its causing Legacy and Vintage as it relates to today and beyond. Because nothing behind 2003 is really ever going to see competitive play again if this continues. There has to be a way around it.

People for years have talking about the threat of litigation if they abolish it. My question is: What power do players yield, since technically they're collectors, too?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There has to be a way around it. A collector can't just sue just because they collect Magic cards. A judge would probably laugh that out of court, because there's no way to quantify loss or damage - those cards could stay the same in value or possibly increase.
Why can't they? I own a thing, you did a thing which hurt the value of that thing. We can put values on used cars, priceless art, but not trading cards? Someone should notify TCG player.
This is all tounge-in-cheek tho: Because like you said, all law is determined by a judge.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What power do players yield

Little, unless you mean collectively, then a lot. But good luck getting two magic players to agree on anything.

[Michael Keller]

I'm being serious, though. Everything is just here-say. People are saying, "Well, people will sue Wizards for breaking the RL." Okay, so let's say for argument's sake that they break it. Then "collectors" (whomever that is, which to me sounds shady because it's a generality) would sue.

First off, has anyone publicly come out stating they will sue Wizards that has the bankroll in RL cards to make it worthwhile? I honestly and truly believe it would never happen. I really believe it's like some wive's tale that people still cling to because it's the default thought.

The reason this pisses me off is not just because I love Legacy, but I've devoted years of my life to playing the format. I can accept it dying. What I can't accept is that it's been treated like a piece of shit by WOTC and given a negative stigma because of their own dumb mistake - the RL. And make no mistake - it has been treated like shit. It's the bastard child of every competitive endeavor because Modern and Standard get the spotlight. That's perfectly fine if the formats had equal footing, but they don't. And that's why the RL needs to go - to allow all older Eternal formats the experience for newer players.

My point again is that if the intent is to "get rid of it," then get rid of it and end it.

That's a huge problem.

[H]

Threatening legal action for what? Wizards/Hasbro own the list, they can do whatever they want to with it. This is one time where "going back on their word" is congruent with changing of the times.

I'm quite certain if the Constitution of the United States of America can receive amendments, so can a Magic: the Gathering Reserved List.

While it seems like a joke, promissory estoppel is an actual legal principle*.

But you miss the actual point. The actual point is that rescinding the Reserve List does not fit into their business model and likely for the reason that it would not be as lucrative as the model they currently have. Even if it were, it carries risk, both of (likely frivolous, but still existent) legal action and no clear ROIC over time. You aren't going to sell the shareholders on that.

Let's be 100% clear. Hasbro does not care about you, or me, or SCG, they don't care about the Pope, nor Legacy players, nor your neighbor's cat. They care about shareholders and their P&L statements. Full stop.

Part of it, in my strict opinion, is that Hasbro/Wizards wants no legal scrutiny passed over it's distribution model, especially given the current scrutiny being paid to video game loot boxes and the always tangential issue of it being labeled "gambling" (I believe tournaments still fall under this in Germany, for example) to which they want absolutely no chance of either having to disclose evidence, nor gain the attention of jumpy law-makers. Wizards is the cash-cow of Hasbro, they are not going to be anything but conservative to even mild risk.

*I'm not a lawyer, this isn't actual legal advice.

[BenBleiweiss]

First off, has anyone publicly come out stating they will sue Wizards that has the bankroll in RL cards to make it worthwhile? I honestly and truly believe it would never happen. I really believe it's like some wive's tale that people still cling to because it's the default thought.

There are, it would. I happen to think that they Wizards would win in the end but IANAL.

[Wrath of Pie]

Honestly, even if the Reserved List was somehow abolished, there is the issue of actually reprinting the cards.

What would be the motive when it is far easier for them to follow the traditional model that centers around Standard and Limited?

[Michael Keller]

While it seems like a joke, promissory estoppel is an actual legal principle*.

But you miss the actual point. The actual point is that rescinding the Reserve List does not fit into their business model and likely for the reason that it would not be as lucrative as the model they currently have. Even if it were, it carries risk, both of (likely frivolous, but still existent) legal action and no clear ROIC over time. You aren't going to sell the shareholders on that.

Let's be 100% clear. Hasbro does not care about you, or me, or SCG, they don't care about the Pope, nor Legacy players, nor your neighbor's cat. They care about shareholders and their P&L statements. Full stop.

Part of it, in my strict opinion, is that Hasbro/Wizards wants no legal scrutiny passed over it's distribution model, especially given the current scrutiny being paid to video game loot boxes and the always tangential issue of it being labeled "gambling" (I believe tournaments still fall under this in Germany, for example) to which they want absolutely no chance of either having to disclose evidence, nor gain the attention of jumpy law-makers. Wizards is the cash-cow of Hasbro, they are not going to be anything but conservative to even mild risk.

*I'm not a lawyer, this isn't actual legal advice.

I completely understand you. But this isn't about them "caring," I'm speaking strictly from a legality perspective. The point is that if a collector wields that kind of power, then a player should, too. I get that they won't do anything; I'm saying to force them to.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I'm being serious, though. Everything is just here-say. People are saying, "Well, people will sue Wizards for breaking the RL." Okay, so let's say for argument's sake that they break it. Then "collectors" (whomever that is, which to me sounds shady because it's a generality) would sue.
It's not collectors who will sue Wizards, it's other companies like SCG and Channel fireball who will argue that they made purchases of products given certain assurances by WOTC, and that when WOTC changed their policy they lost X dollars as measured by the current price of Underground Seas based on their price the day prior to the announcement.
And then either wizards will settle and we'll never know the details (Just like we don't know the details around the court case that created the reserved list to begin with) or they will lose because no matter how many times they shout the words "promissory estopple" to anyone who listens it turns out that the company who already amended their promises on a whim can continue doing so, especially when backed by the power of an 11 billion dollar corporation.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I completely understand you. But this isn't about them "caring," I'm speaking strictly from a legality perspective. The point is that if a collector wields that kind of power, then a player should, too. I get that they won't do anything; I'm saying to force them to.
Good luck trying to collect torts from an 11 billion dollar company.

[bruizar]

All roads lead to format innovation. That is something WE control and the timing would be excellent now with Pioneer’s announcement and SCGs announcement

[H]

I completely understand you. But this isn't about them "caring," I'm speaking strictly from a legality perspective. The point is that if a collector wields that kind of power, then a player should, too. I get that they won't do anything; I'm saying to force them to.

Because promissory estoppel likely passes an evidentiary hearing and so could actually lead to a trial.

Suing because you play a game and would like the company to sell you more game pieces has no legal basis, since there wasn't even the semblance of promise or an agreement on either party's behalf in this case. Therefor, there is essentially no legal grounds to bring a case on. Again, I'm definitely not a lawyer, but at best, it seems you'd waste a couple hours on the part of Hasbro's legal team.

What you actually want to do, is more akin to this quote from Carl Sandburg:
"If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell."

You have no facts on your side and you definitely don't have the law. So, if you actually wanted to do something, you need to find somewhere to bang the table and yell as loud as you can. But I think you'll find the court of public opinion both vastly deaf to the plight and profoundly uncaring.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Because promissory estoppel likely passes an evidentiary hearing and so could actually lead to a trial.

Suing because you play a game and would like the company to sell you more game pieces has no legal basis, since there wasn't even the semblance of promise or an agreement on either party's behalf in this case.

Incorrect: The company announces all the time their plan to make more game pieces. The same concept of promissory estoppel applies here.

[Cire]

From a business point, getting rid of RL only makes sense if: [Profits from new print run of RL cards] > ([Litigation costs and eventual settlement of potential class action]+[print runs of RL cards]+[promotion of legacy events]).

Any PE suit will be unlikely to succeed, but modern litigation is such that companies will always settle any such suit as a nuisance concern. Thus, the concern for the above isn't "damages upon loss" but "Legal expenses billed hourly until settlement + Settlement cost". On a business concern, you additionally have to add in the imaginary expense of "man hours and firm resources devoted to litigation" which are not insignificant (discovery, depositions, teleconferences, meetings, review of filings, travel, etc), further you have to include the imaginary cost of time value of money and the what other projects those hours and time could've been spent on, i.e. all the money that could've been used for something else and all those hours and efforts that could've been used for something else. They have to be sure of allocating resources to make profits this way otherwise they will just funnel resources to efforts that are more likely to yield profits. So the formula looks more like:

[Profits from new print run of RL cards] > ([Legal expenses billed hourly until settlement ]+[Settlement Cost]+[print runs of RL cards]+[promotion of legacy events]+[Cost of Misdirected Hours/Time]+[Lost opportunities])*([Percentage likelihood of [Profits from new print run of RL cards]>[Lost opportunities]]).

[Michael Keller]

Good luck trying to collect torts from an 11 billion dollar company.

If it's an 11 billion dollar company, legal action from Mom and Dad in the Adirondacks isn't going to break the bank.

[H]

Incorrect: The company announces all the time their plan to make more game pieces. The same concept of promissory estoppel applies here.

So what you are saying is that the basis of your case is that they the announced they'd make more game pieces and then did? What are your damages in this case?

No, you'd have to make the case that they somehow promised to make certain specific game pieces and then didn't. Except they never did that. Or, if they did, no one ever heard it.

They did, on the other hand, expressly state they would not make certain specific game pieces. And they don't (anymore) post-closing the Foil "loophole." That's the case that could be made with some likely weight of law. Just because no one took action based on Phyrexian Dreadnaughts, doesn't mean it couldn't have been done.

Then again, as I said, I am not a lawyer, so do your best Johnnie Cochran and go get 'em if you have the superior understanding and grasp of the facts of the matter.

[Purple Blood]

I'm being serious, though. Everything is just here-say. People are saying, "Well, people will sue Wizards for breaking the RL." Okay, so let's say for argument's sake that they break it. Then "collectors" (whomever that is, which to me sounds shady because it's a generality) would sue.

First off, has anyone publicly come out stating they will sue Wizards that has the bankroll in RL cards to make it worthwhile? I honestly and truly believe it would never happen. I really believe it's like some wive's tale that people still cling to because it's the default thought.

The reason this pisses me off is not just because I love Legacy, but I've devoted years of my life to playing the format. I can accept it dying. What I can't accept is that it's been treated like a piece of shit by WOTC and given a negative stigma because of their own dumb mistake - the RL. And make no mistake - it has been treated like shit. It's the bastard child of every competitive endeavor because Modern and Standard get the spotlight. That's perfectly fine if the formats had equal footing, but they don't. And that's why the RL needs to go - to allow all older Eternal formats the experience for newer players.

My point again is that if the intent is to "get rid of it," then get rid of it and end it.

That's a huge problem.

There's another aspect to this that is going unsaid. The fact that there are cards worth thousands, tens of thousands, and even hundreds of thousands gives legitimacy to the price of all of the other cards. In a world where Black Lotus is $50, everything else becomes dirt. So WOTC has an incentive to continue with the RL for this reason as well.

As a result of the RL, Legacy has to die sooner or later. The hope is WOTC can use Modern Horizons to turn Modern into Legacy. The path is easily there for them to create the same gameplay as in Legacy without the problems of the RL. It honestly would only take the printing of a dozen or so cards into the format and some unbannings. People like yourself who are heavily invested could easily transition to this format.

This approach makes a lot of sense because, right now, Modern is a dumpster fire of a format that cannot self-regulate. Also, it seems they are hoping Pioneer ends up being what Modern should have been.

[Purple Blood]

Good luck trying to collect torts from an 11 billion dollar company.

I actually disagree completely. Generally speaking, it's significantly easier to collect from big companies as compared to small ones.

Small ones don't have deep pockets. Small ones tend to hire shadier lawyers and employ shadier tactics in litigation.

With big companies you know exactly what you're gonna get: a big law firm that will waste your time but without doing anything truly shady followed by a pay out once the big firm has made their billables.

There's a variety of other factors that lead to this result e.g. big companies care more about public perception; big companies are more likely to look at things rationally (dollars and cents) versus emotionally (vendetta motives).

[Purple Blood]

Because promissory estoppel likely passes an evidentiary hearing and so could actually lead to a trial.

Suing because you play a game and would like the company to sell you more game pieces has no legal basis, since there wasn't even the semblance of promise or an agreement on either party's behalf in this case. Therefor, there is essentially no legal grounds to bring a case on. Again, I'm definitely not a lawyer, but at best, it seems you'd waste a couple hours on the part of Hasbro's legal team.

What you actually want to do, is more akin to this quote from Carl Sandburg:
"If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the law and the facts are against you, pound the table and yell like hell."

You have no facts on your side and you definitely don't have the law. So, if you actually wanted to do something, you need to find somewhere to bang the table and yell as loud as you can. But I think you'll find the court of public opinion both vastly deaf to the plight and profoundly uncaring.

The facts actually fit promissory estoppel pretty well. It's a colorable argument to say the least.

The elements of promissory estoppel are (1) a promise, (2) the promisor should reasonably expect the promise to induce action or forbearance on the part of the promisee or a third person, (3) the promise induces action or forbearance by the promisee or a third person, and (4) injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise.

You can see how this works in this instance: (1) WOTC promises to maintain the RL in perpetuity; (2) WOTC should reasonably expect collectors to purchase RL cards based on that promise; (3) collectors actually do buy RL cards based on that promise; (4) injustice results when WOTC eliminates the RL because collector's investments in RL cards plummet as a result of the broken promise.

[H]

The facts actually fit promissory estoppel pretty well. It's a colorable argument to say the least.

The elements of promissory estoppel are (1) a promise, (2) the promisor should reasonably expect the promise to induce action or forbearance on the part of the promisee or a third person, (3) the promise induces action or forbearance by the promisee or a third person, and (4) injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise.

You can see how this works in this instance: (1) WOTC promises to maintain the RL in perpetuity; (2) WOTC should reasonably expect collectors to purchase RL cards based on that promise; (3) collectors actually do buy RL cards based on that promise; (4) injustice results when WOTC eliminates the RL because collector's investments in RL cards plummet as a result of the broken promise.

That is not at all the case which I was considering. The hypothetical case I was considering was Michael Keller's where players sue for Legacy not be "supported" with reprints, not the breaking of the Reserve List. We all already know that of breaking the RL has enough merit to be heard.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If it's an 11 billion dollar company, legal action from Mom and Dad in the Adirondacks isn't going to break the bank.

So what? They don't care, as people keep saying: they're a business and they're only ethics are "will this enrich our s shareholders"

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So what you are saying is that the basis of your case is that they the announced they'd make more game pieces and then did? What are your damages in this case?

No, you'd have to make the case that they somehow promised to make certain specific game pieces and then didn't. Except they never did that. Or, if they did, no one ever heard it.

They did, on the other hand, expressly state they would not make certain specific game pieces. And they don't (anymore) post-closing the Foil "loophole." That's the case that could be made with some likely weight of law. Just because no one took action based on Phyrexian Dreadnaughts, doesn't mean it couldn't have been done.

Then again, as I said, I am not a lawyer, so do your best Johnnie Cochran and go get 'em if you have the superior understanding and grasp of the facts of the matter.

As purple blood said you need four elements:
1 a promise: wizards announces a set
2 an expectation: wizards keeps releasing sets, so I expect them to release the announced set
3 an action: to release the announced set
4 an injustice: any plans I made to use the set, I have to cancel which can only be done with the now non-existent set
Congrats, you've now established the legal case that wizards can never cancel a set. Now if you say "wait a minute! That's nuts" then congrats! You're one step closer to understanding that the legal case for keeping the reserve list is only as strong as the lawyers paychecks

[Michael Keller]

I found this funny from the Banned and Restricted List page for Legacy:


“Like Vintage, you can play cards from any set. The twist? A longer banned list makes this format more accessible to new players.“

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The facts actually fit promissory estoppel pretty well. It's a colorable argument to say the least.

The elements of promissory estoppel are (1) a promise, (2) the promisor should reasonably expect the promise to induce action or forbearance on the part of the promisee or a third person, (3) the promise induces action or forbearance by the promisee or a third person, and (4) injustice can be avoided only by enforcement of the promise.

You can see how this works in this instance: (1) WOTC promises to maintain the RL in perpetuity; (2) WOTC should reasonably expect collectors to purchase RL cards based on that promise; (3) collectors actually do buy RL cards based on that promise; (4) injustice results when WOTC eliminates the RL because collector's investments in RL cards plummet as a result of the broken promise.

So element two fails because wizards, having changed the reserved list and the policies around it several times, should not expect collectors to treat their words as gospel?

[kombatkiwi]

Honestly, even if the Reserved List was somehow abolished, there is the issue of actually reprinting the cards.

What would be the motive when it is far easier for them to follow the traditional model that centers around Standard and Limited?

you could ask the same questions about battlebond or modern horizons or modern masters or conspiracy or commander decks or mythic editions or

[bruizar]

Look guys, we've been over this. I watched themanadrain slowly become dormant because all they did was discuss proxy 10 tournaments and abandoning the reserve list with the odd mention of legalizing collector's edition to infuse more power to the format. Vintage was my one and only love in Magic, but I had to move to Legacy to be able to play regular tournaments. There is no indication that the same won't happen to Legacy, with people gradually moving to Modern and Pioneer over the years, or retiring from Magic all together. We can accept this, and just go to tournaments like Eternal Weekend once or twice a year, play some Vintage and Legacy and call it a day, or we can do something about it. If you want to do something about it, try to do things that are in your control, not in someone else's control. Abolishing the reserved list is out of our control, so this won't bear any fruit.

First of all, what problems do we have in Legacy? Well, it's not popularity, it's cost. Given the means, any Modern player would play Legacy. But they can't afford it so they play the next best thing. To make the format more affordable there are 3 options:
OPTION 1) Innovate budget decks that do not require original duals
Shock dual synergies: Watery Grave + Death's Shadow as mentioned before.

Pain land synergies: GW-Eldrazi with Brushland. We will see Emrakul again soon. There's a new zendikar set coming up and some people have identified War of the Spark's The Wanderer as Emrakul. That means we're getting new Eldrazi and the chance to innovate with pain lands is higher

Land type hate synergies: Choke hates on dual lands and basic lands, the problem is that you can't play Islands yourself. But that isn't a problem when you are running fast lands like Botanical Sanctum

Scry land synergies: We haven't seen much competitive play from the Theros scry lands yet, due to the enter the battle field tapped clause, but Zhalfirin Void shows WOTC is willing to increase the power level on Scry lands. Delver of Secrets and Predict are two examples that care about top of deck information. Lantern control, Stompy decks and A+B combo like Show and Tell or Reanimator also care more than others about their top decks. Since we already have 10 scry duals and a colorless scry land, there is a good chance that Theros Beyond Death will feature mono colored, untapped scry lands.

Snow land synergies: Scrying Sheets, Into the North, Dark Depths and Arcum's Astrolabe are all high potential cards. 2 of these already take up an important place in the Legacy metagame

Monocolored decks Basics are the cheapest alternative to duals, unless you're playing guru lands of course.

Manaless decks like Dredge, or decks that operate mostly without lands using cards like baubles (Bomberman), mox opals, artifact land and springleaf drums, lotus petals, spirit guides, etcetera

Colorless decks City of Traitors isn't cheap, but it enables a lot of decks that don't require duals

Fast combo decks Make more fast combo decks so that the life loss of Shock Duals is irrelevant. Reanimator and Ad Nauseam both care too much about the life total to pull this off.


OPTION 2) Change the format
a: Trinity: Reduce the card limit so that cards flow back into the market, and decks require one less card to finish the playset, making the decks cheaper while also giving a chance for outmoded cards in the competitive scene. That leaves room for price appreciation on the new cards that currently see no play, which could entice parties like Starcitygames to jump back in if there's enough room for price appreciation.

b: Convert the Reserved list into a Restricted list. Legacy would lose the unique identity it has, and would compete and lose out against Modern

c: Ban all cards on the Reserved List. The same as the above, but even worse.

d: Ban Fetch lands so that Dual Lands are much less powerful than they are right now. Most of the cost is in dual lands. Without Fetch lands, original dual lands are a liability more than an asset with cards like Boil and Choke in the format.

e: Introduce a point system. You can play with a maximum of 10 cards from the reserved list.

Option 2b, 2c and 2d are the most drastic measures because you remove the ability of some players to play the way they want to play. I would rank them in the following order: 2a, then 2e, then 2d.



OPTION 3 Leave things as they are.
The format will slowly follow the same trajectory as Vintage and will be played only in long intervals on big international tournaments like Eternal Weekend. Format innovation is done exclusively on MTGO.


From a price point of view, this is all we can do as players to stimulate new players to join.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

That's why I play Legacy, actually, because I want to look at an obviously better card and say "nah, shocks instead"

[Cire]

FYI found this article from an actual lawyer regarding PE and the RL https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/contract-from-below-promissory-estoppel-and-the-reserved-list (although it seems like it was part of a series and I can't find the rest of the series).

[BenBleiweiss]

so element two fails because wizards, having changed the reserved list and the policies around it several times, should not expect collectors to treat their words as gospel?

this

[Mr. Safety]

I read the article, and I have a couple questions folks here might be able to help me answer.

1) It appears that even if a lawsuit (class action?) happened against WOTC and it's found to violate promissory estoppel, the court seems to still have broad power of interpretation. So it could amount to lots of damages, or none at all. Is this correct?

2) You would need proof of purchase of your RL cards (receipt, etc.) right? In order to claim the amount paid vs. the amount lost based on the drop in value after reprint. The example was a USea bought for $300, it drops to $100, so you would be eligible for $200 worth of damages.

3) Promissory estoppel doesn't allow for potential loss in profit, which can normally be claimed in reference to a breach of contract, which seems to be the biggest argument against abolishing the reserved list. It seems like according to this lawyer, collectors cannot sue WOTC for loss of potential future value (profit) but only for lost value. Is this correct?

It doesn't seem like such a mess as most people make it out to be, honestly. It looks like WOTC could honestly take the chance, at some point, at abolishing the RL and just taking the losses if damages are incurred (see Q#1.)

EDIT: Sorry I sabotaged the thread with RL discussion.

[Michael Keller]

I read the article, and I have a couple questions folks here might be able to help me answer.

1) It appears that even if a lawsuit (class action?) happened against WOTC and it's found to violate promissory estoppel, the court seems to still have broad power of interpretation. So it could amount to lots of damages, or none at all. Is this correct?

2) You would need proof of purchase of your RL cards (receipt, etc.) right? In order to claim the amount paid vs. the amount lost based on the drop in value after reprint. The example was a USea bought for $300, it drops to $100, so you would be eligible for $200 worth of damages.

3) Promissory estoppel doesn't allow for potential loss in profit, which can normally be claimed in reference to a breach of contract, which seems to be the biggest argument against abolishing the reserved list. It seems like according to this lawyer, collectors cannot sue WOTC for loss of potential future value (profit) but only for lost value. Is this correct?

It doesn't seem like such a mess as most people make it out to be, honestly. It looks like WOTC could honestly take the chance, at some point, at abolishing the RL and just taking the losses if damages are incurred (see Q#1.)

What baffles me is how a collector can sue for loss of value on some cards because of the abolishment of the RL, but organic price change on the secondary market (i.e. a USea going from 700 to 400 dollars in two months) is not grounds for being able to sue. The very nature of these cards is that they fluctuate in price because of their age, scarcity and playability. You're telling me that only an artificial outcome that affects pricing is the only measure that a collector could use to sue?

Something about this doesn't make sense. I'm not a lawyer, but this feels like hogwash to me. I honestly believe this would get laughed out of court, regardless of the investment one made into the product. Precedent has been set that this list has changed in the past. So if you're a collector, regardless of what WOTC says, you have to at least invest operating under the pretense that at any time they could make the decision to change it again or abolish it entirely - and that's on you, not WOTC.

[Cire]

It doesn't seem like such a mess as most people make it out to be, honestly. It looks like WOTC could honestly take the chance, at some point, at abolishing the RL and just taking the losses if damages are incurred (see Q#1.)

I agree that it isn't as big a deal as people think. However, while damages don't seem that high, like I said before it seems like a business consideration. Consider the formula I posted earlier: [Profits from new print run of RL cards] > ([Legal expenses billed hourly until settlement ]+[Settlement Cost]+[print runs of RL cards]+[promotion of legacy events]+[Cost of Misdirected Hours/Time]+[Lost opportunities])*([Percentage likelihood of [Profits from new print run of RL cards]>[Lost opportunities]]). I just doubt that wizards wants to go through the effort since the potential profits are lower than the headaches such a move will cost. Even if wizards lawyers say they have a slam dunk defense and a damages won't be high, there is still the cost and time of a lawsuit which they'll have to defend all the way to judgement or settlement (and they will have to play hardball because if they give in early other people may bring the same suit against them, and again the damages for each individual suit wont be high, but just the sheer cost of litigation itself will add as well as the time for each of the executives/people in charge).


What baffles me is how a collector can sue for loss of value on some cards because of the abolishment of the RL, but organic price change on the secondary market (i.e. a USea going from 700 to 400 dollars in two months) is not grounds for being able to sue. The very nature of these cards is that they fluctuate in price. You're telling me that an artificial change that affects pricing is the only measure that a collector could use to sue?

Something about this doesn't make sense. I'm not lawyer, but this feels like hogwash to me. I honestly believe this would get laughed out of court, regardless of the investment one made into the product. Precedent has been set that this list has changed in the past. So if you're a collector, regardless of what WOTC says, you have to at least invest operating under the pretense that at any time they could make the decision to change it again or abolish it entirely.

I mean the difference is organic change versus inorganic right? Like the idea behind the law is fraud right? Like think about it like stock - if you buy Facebook stock thinking it will go up but the market tanks you can't do anything. But if you buy facebook stock with facebook making the promise it will go up and then the market tanks you can sue facebook. That's what happened to Elon Musk and Tesla with his tweets. The market is volatile, but if people make purchases based on future expectation in reliance on an insiders or whatever promise that's when the law gets involved.

[Michael Keller]

I honestly believe that if WOTC abolishes the RL that they would make more friends than enemies. If their goal is to have people sink money into new product, can you imagine the influx of new Legacy and Vintage players if those cards were reprinted?

Keep in mind those collectors would eyeball the secondary market like hawks. And I bet you anything that the original versions of those cards from a pricing standpoint wouldn't go anywhere. (Revised, possibly. Alpha and Beta and to a lesser extent Unlimited? Highly unlikely.) And in the process make those folks look pretty dumb for thinking their cards aren't worth anything anymore.

The bottom line is that I don't think these "collectors" would get anything out of a RL abolishment sue, because they would need - like Safety mentioned - proof that they've incurred damages upon receipt of the cards they own and that it was actually because of the RL abolishment they lost money. Good luck with that.

[Cire]

The bottom line is that I don't think these "collectors" would get anything out of a RL abolishment sue, because they would need - like Safety mentioned - proof that they've incurred damages upon receipt of the cards they own and that it was actually because of the RL abolishment they lost money. Good luck with that.

I think this misses the incentives of a class action. If there is a case to be made that can survive summary judgement (aka judge laughing it out of the court or not) then a class action firm would reach out to vendors or individuals and ask to represent them in a class action on contingency (so no cost at all for the vendors to pursue the trial, they just sit back and let lawyers do everything). Then the class action lawyers will bring the case and drag it out because modern litigation always always goes to settlement. Wizards will want to settle because if it goes to trial and they lose then anyone will be able to jump in and bring a similar case.

With the above dynamic the move will always cost wizards money and time. It is only worth it if they think the profits the move will generate will make that money and time worth it.

[H]

No one is making the case that one would win with the suit of PE vs the breaking of the RL. The point is that you can bring the case and it likely has enough merit to pass an evidentiary hearing. Which means a trial and likely some amount of disclosure on the part of Wizards that they would rather not make. It's not really about winning the case. There is, in all likelihood, a legal reason why Wizard employees are forbidden to acknowledge the secondary market. I'd imagine they have done their best to sanitize internal documents of this as well, but it's still likely to be an embarrassing and detrimental level of disclosure involved in an actual trial.

You can't "realistically" get past an evidentiary hearing on Underground Sea "organically" dropping in price because Wizard's made nothing that could legally be construed as a promise on it's price or playability. It really is that simple. Can you show me anything that could be considered a promise on Wizard's part that a Sea will always be playable? Their only statement is on it's reprintability.

These curious notions about suing them for canceling a set, or whatever, have no bearing on the real world because they aren't things that actually happened. Could you sue them for that if they actually did that? Sure. To what end? Likely nothing but wasting your own time. You can also sue them if you cat dies from eating a Magic card, so I hardly see what pointing out that you can sue them for literally anything actually proves.

Like I said though, since it seems like we've got some real stellar legal-eagles here, don't quibble with me, I don't know shit. Go out and actually sue them and see what happens.

[jmlima]

...

2) You would need proof of purchase of your RL cards (receipt, etc.) right? In order to claim the amount paid vs. the amount lost based on the drop in value after reprint. The example was a USea bought for $300, it drops to $100, so you would be eligible for $200 worth of damages.
....

Easy tiger. That would be if your cards were of the same standard as the one being sold by $100 and of the same standard as the ones being sold by $300, this would be open to experts opinions fighting it out in the absence of any regulatory body. In devaluation you have prove value at origin and after depreciation. It could easily be concluded that the card you paid $300 for was actually inflated comparatively, hence only worth $150 (for example). Also, you would need to agree in advance on a base market price for all cards of the same condition, prior and post devaluation, good luck on that.

[jmlima]

...Which means a trial and likely some amount of disclosure on the part of Wizards that they would rather not make. It's not really about winning the case. There is, in all likelihood, a legal reason why Wizard employees are forbidden to acknowledge the secondary market. I'd imagine they have done their best to sanitize internal documents of this as well, but it's still likely to be an embarrassing and detrimental level of disclosure involved in an actual trial....

And herein (IMO) lies the real issue, acknowledgment or denial of the secondary market. It would be hilarious if this caused wizard's employees to, for example, disclose their personal financial transitions before a ban. Or, if it caused wizard's to be forced to acknowledge value devaluation of cards for all future actions like bans, releases, reprints, etc for fear of future litigation on the same grounds (devaluation).

[bruizar]

No one is making the case that one would win with the suit of PE vs the breaking of the RL. The point is that you can bring the case and it likely has enough merit to pass an evidentiary hearing. Which means a trial and likely some amount of disclosure on the part of Wizards that they would rather not make. It's not really about winning the case. There is, in all likelihood, a legal reason why Wizard employees are forbidden to acknowledge the secondary market. I'd imagine they have done their best to sanitize internal documents of this as well, but it's still likely to be an embarrassing and detrimental level of disclosure involved in an actual trial.

You can't "realistically" get past an evidentiary hearing on Underground Sea "organically" dropping in price because Wizard's made nothing that could legally be construed as a promise on it's price or playability. It really is that simple. Can you show me anything that could be considered a promise on Wizard's part that a Sea will always be playable? Their only statement is on it's reprintability.

These curious notions about suing them for canceling a set, or whatever, have no bearing on the real world because they aren't things that actually happened. Could you sue them for that if they actually did that? Sure. To what end? Likely nothing but wasting your own time. You can also sue them if you cat dies from eating a Magic card, so I hardly see what pointing out that you can sue them for literally anything actually proves.

Like I said though, since it seems like we've got some real stellar legal-eagles here, don't quibble with me, I don't know shit. Go out and actually sue them and see what happens.

Sea is playable, in commander, legacy, vintage and oldschool. They, and otheers, are facilitating plenty of formats to play with old cards. Nothing stops you from making your own format with your own rules either!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I read the article, and I have a couple questions folks here might be able to help me answer.

1) It appears that even if a lawsuit (class action?) happened against WOTC and it's found to violate promissory estoppel, the court seems to still have broad power of interpretation. So it could amount to lots of damages, or none at all. Is this correct?

2) You would need proof of purchase of your RL cards (receipt, etc.) right? In order to claim the amount paid vs. the amount lost based on the drop in value after reprint. The example was a USea bought for $300, it drops to $100, so you would be eligible for $200 worth of damages.

3) Promissory estoppel doesn't allow for potential loss in profit, which can normally be claimed in reference to a breach of contract, which seems to be the biggest argument against abolishing the reserved list. It seems like according to this lawyer, collectors cannot sue WOTC for loss of potential future value (profit) but only for lost value. Is this correct?

It doesn't seem like such a mess as most people make it out to be, honestly. It looks like WOTC could honestly take the chance, at some point, at abolishing the RL and just taking the losses if damages are incurred (see Q#1.)

EDIT: Sorry I sabotaged the thread with RL discussion.
1: Yes. Welcome to law: Where the points are made up and we only pretend the rules matter.
2: No. If you own a classic car, do you insure it for what you paid in 1950 for it, or it's value today?
3: Maybe. Despite what lawyers will tell you about law being fixed and set in stone interpretations of it are fluid and ever changing. Juris Prudence is a myth.

[H]

And herein (IMO) lies the real issue, acknowledgment or denial of the secondary market. It would be hilarious if this caused wizard's employees to, for example, disclose their personal financial transitions before a ban. Or, if it caused wizard's to be forced to acknowledge value devaluation of cards for all future actions like bans, releases, reprints, etc for fear of future litigation on the same grounds (devaluation).

Right, not to mention the scrutiny payed to the distribution model. Given how much of a flap "loot boxes" and the like have been causing, publicity of a system not all that dissimilar (at least, prima facie) is not what would make Hasbro shareholders happy at all.

Not to mention, as Cire already pointed out, the RL really could be done away with in a variety of manners, but the simple fact is that it is not regarded as the marketing strategy of choice, because while it seems real lucrative at face value, the fact is that focusing on Standard and Limited are way more valuable, since they are largely predicated on (en)forced spending.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What baffles me is how a collector can sue for loss of value on some cards because of the abolishment of the RL, but organic price change on the secondary market (i.e. a USea going from 700 to 400 dollars in two months) is not grounds for being able to sue. The very nature of these cards is that they fluctuate in price because of their age, scarcity and playability. You're telling me that only an artificial outcome that affects pricing is the only measure that a collector could use to sue?
Actually it is! If you can prove that the company did something to ignore their responsibilities (like, say a financial officer's fiduciary responsibility to their company) you can sue them for damages.

[Purple Blood]

The bottom line is that I don't think these "collectors" would get anything out of a RL abolishment sue, because they would need - like Safety mentioned - proof that they've incurred damages upon receipt of the cards they own and that it was actually because of the RL abolishment they lost money. Good luck with that.

It's called circumstantial evidence. If there's an immediate price dip right after the RL abolishment announcement happens that can easily be enough to carry the day in court.

The proof is simple as printing screenshots of market prices before and after the announcement.

[Michael Keller]

Wrote this (https://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/53166/the-cutting-room-floor-the-reserved-list#more-53166) in 2013.

[the Thin White Duke]

Honestly, even if the Reserved List was somehow abolished, there is the issue of actually reprinting the cards.

This.
Why would Wizards jump down this rabbit hole trying to figure out how they could distribute reprints without bad PR for themselves, LGS, online retailers, etc.
If you print a Master's set, your LGS or online store of choice will be hoarding boxes/ selling packs 100x , 1000x MSRP.
If you insert cards a la Zendikar, same potential senario.
List more options and you end up with people getting butt hurt because they still can't afford the cards or were unlucky enough to not pull some ultra-uber- mythic rare equivalent reprint. Plus, the cynical (i.e. run of the mill eternal player) will end up saying "it's just another cash grab by Hasbro..."
Why bother with these headaches when Standard sells and every couple of years you invent a new extended format?

[bruizar]

This.
Why would Wizards jump down this rabbit hole trying to figure out how they could distribute reprints without bad PR for themselves, LGS, online retailers, etc.
If you print a Master's set, your LGS or online store of choice will be hoarding boxes/ selling packs 100x , 1000x MSRP.
If you insert cards a la Zendikar, same potential senario.
List more options and you end up with people getting butt hurt because they still can't afford the cards or were unlucky enough to not pull some ultra-uber- mythic rare equivalent reprint. Plus, the cynical (i.e. run of the mill eternal player) will end up saying "it's just another cash grab by Hasbro..."
Why bother with these headaches when Standard sells and every couple of years you invent a new extended format?

I totally agree. Have you seen how people behave in malls on black friday? Picture that times 1000 when the prize is Power 9, Mishra's Workshops, Bazaar of Baghdad, Tabernacles and (black bordered) duals. It's going to be a Quintin Tarantino style blood bath.

[non-inflammable]

If you insert cards a la Zendikar...

just sayin' that was wildly successful. i have a revised taiga pulled from a zendikar pack...

[apple713]

If it's an 11 billion dollar company, legal action from Mom and Dad in the Adirondacks isn't going to break the bank.

its the class action from millions of players + collectors that will break the bank


From a business point, getting rid of RL only makes sense if:

[Profits from new print run of RL cards] > ([Legal expenses billed hourly until settlement ]+[Settlement Cost]+[print runs of RL cards]+[promotion of legacy events]+[Cost of Misdirected Hours/Time]+[Lost opportunities])*([Percentage likelihood of [Profits from new print run of RL cards]>[Lost opportunities]]).

I'm fairly certain this conversation has already been had internally. There is a point where it makes sense to them. Also, they have a general counsel so there's no billable hours to worry about, they get to pay salary to a handful of lawyers to deal with this.


What baffles me is how a collector can sue for loss of value on some cards because of the abolishment of the RL, but organic price change on the secondary market (i.e. a USea going from 700 to 400 dollars in two months) is not grounds for being able to sue. The very nature of these cards is that they fluctuate in price because of their age, scarcity and playability. You're telling me that only an artificial outcome that affects pricing is the only measure that a collector could use to sue?

Something about this doesn't make sense. I'm not a lawyer, but this feels like hogwash to me. I honestly believe this would get laughed out of court, regardless of the investment one made into the product. Precedent has been set that this list has changed in the past. So if you're a collector, regardless of what WOTC says, you have to at least invest operating under the pretense that at any time they could make the decision to change it again or abolish it entirely - and that's on you, not WOTC.

Pretty sure WOTC in their latest statement about their reserve list changes acknowledges that they have made changes before but will not be doing so going forward. Also, whether or not something can be successfully argued in court doesnt always make sense. It takes a very different way of thinking to be a lawyer. Once you become a lawyer, your entire perception of the world changes and you begin to understand why companies take certain actions.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Pretty sure WOTC in their latest statement about their reserve list changes acknowledges that they have made changes before but will not be doing so going forward. Also, whether or not something can be successfully argued in court doesnt always make sense. It takes a very different way of thinking to be a lawyer. Once you become a lawyer, your entire perception of the world changes and you begin to understand why companies take certain actions.
Unlike the last time they changed the reserved list?

[Cire]

I'm fairly certain this conversation has already been had internally. There is a point where it makes sense to them. Also, they have a general counsel so there's no billable hours to worry about, they get to pay salary to a handful of lawyers to deal with this.

No way general counsel handles a class litigation.

[kombatkiwi]

This.
Why would Wizards jump down this rabbit hole trying to figure out how they could distribute reprints without bad PR for themselves, LGS, online retailers, etc.
If you print a Master's set, your LGS or online store of choice will be hoarding boxes/ selling packs 100x , 1000x MSRP.
If you insert cards a la Zendikar, same potential senario.
List more options and you end up with people getting butt hurt because they still can't afford the cards or were unlucky enough to not pull some ultra-uber- mythic rare equivalent reprint. Plus, the cynical (i.e. run of the mill eternal player) will end up saying "it's just another cash grab by Hasbro..."
Why bother with these headaches when Standard sells and every couple of years you invent a new extended format?


I totally agree. Have you seen how people behave in malls on black friday? Picture that times 1000 when the prize is Power 9, Mishra's Workshops, Bazaar of Baghdad, Tabernacles and (black bordered) duals. It's going to be a Quintin Tarantino style blood bath

This is the dumbest argument, none of these things are an issue for wotc
Nobody there is going "hmmmm it seems we have a problem, people are TOO hungry for our cardboard"

[bruizar]

This is the dumbest argument, none of these things are an issue for wotc
Nobody there is going "hmmmm it seems we have a problem, people are TOO hungry for our cardboard"

Print to demand will lead to upheaval, limited printing will lead to store owners cornering the market and flipping the product for X times the intended retail price, limited printed direst sales will lead to bots buying out all product the way it happens with Sneakers, just to release it the same day for X times the price.

You will not get your hands on reserved list cards for cheap, unless they print it like it’s venezuelan money. Look up the price of a Collectors edition set, and thats not even legal in sanctioned tournaments.

[Mr.C]

Guys, just let it go. Legacy has gone the way of Vintage; I sold out years ago because of that. The truth is, Wizards doesn't really give a shit about us. As long as there's people buying $30 collector boosters, there's zero incentive to even touch the list.

The only way it's getting broken is when Wizards is in the shitter at the tail end of the upcoming recession, and someone in a suit says "you know what we need? Go back to our roots. Let's get those 40 and 50 year olds with money that used to play 25 years ago to buy the stuff from their childhood". Then we miiiight get stuff like duals. Maybe some form of paper Vintage Masters.

Or get someone in China with a printing press, but if that happens there is zero chance of SCG ever touching Legacy again.

So, no way out. Put a fork in it, it's done.

[kombatkiwi]

Print to demand will lead to upheaval, limited printing will lead to store owners cornering the market and flipping the product for X times the intended retail price, limited printed direst sales will lead to bots buying out all product the way it happens with Sneakers, just to release it the same day for X times the price.

You will not get your hands on reserved list cards for cheap, unless they print it like it’s venezuelan money. Look up the price of a Collectors edition set, and thats not even legal in sanctioned tournaments.

I'm addressing the argument that wotc won't ever bother print RL cards because it would be some kind of logistical hassle that detracts from their core business of making standard-legal sets.

I'm not denying that any of this secondary market drama will happen. With the mythic editions people already did the sneaker-esque shit where if you were lucky to get it for the RRP from the Hasbro website it was basically free money if you just flipped it on the secondary market immediately.

My point is that wotc doesn't care: they are still making money selling people cardboard. If they make a reserved-list product tomorrow that's a new way to sell people cardboard that they didn't have access to today. They don't lose money by "printing it like venezuelan money" either unless they totally oversaturate the demand and theres a bunch of vintage cube box-sets or 'mythic-edition: power' left sitting in a warehouse somewhere that nobody wants, which seems unlikely.

If your argument is instead "wotc has shown in the past that they're too afraid to reprint cards in a way that has any noticeable impact on their secondary market value, so there's no reason to be excited about the prospect of the RL disappearing", then that's a different argument. I agree with you that wotc is way too conservative in this regard but I don't agree that it's impossible to imagine a realistic product that would noticeably reduce the prices of RL cards

edit

Guys, just let it go. Legacy has gone the way of Vintage; I sold out years ago because of that. The truth is, Wizards doesn't really give a shit about us. As long as there's people buying $30 collector boosters, there's zero incentive to even touch the list.

The only way it's getting broken is when Wizards is in the shitter at the tail end of the upcoming recession, and someone in a suit says "you know what we need? Go back to our roots. Let's get those 40 and 50 year olds with money that used to play 25 years ago to buy the stuff from their childhood". Then we miiiight get stuff like duals. Maybe some form of paper Vintage Masters.
The second paragraph is exactly the incentive you're looking for in the first paragraph
It doesn't necessarily have to be in a situation where wotc/hasbro is in a hole, either. It just needs to be a situation where the expected returns outweigh the legal repercussions. (Which I don't know enough about to comment on, but from what I've heard from people who's opinions I trust/value it's not just an imaginary bogeyman invented in the minds of wotc)

[jmlima]

It's called circumstantial evidence. If there's an immediate price dip right after the RL abolishment announcement happens that can easily be enough to carry the day in court.

The proof is simple as printing screenshots of market prices before and after the announcement.

I would argue that the value of any investment, if you can even consider it an investment vehicle which if I was the lawyer would never do, is prone to fluctuations, hence the price dip or rise is bound to be expected, plus, there have been previous fluctuations in price and the cards returned to their original value, or even surpassed it.

[Tylert]

WoTc should print something along the lines of this:

"Pseudo volcanic island
Land - Island mountain
Tap: Add U or R to your mana pool
You cannot have more than 4 volcanic island and Pseudo Volcanic island in total in your deck"

Does not break the RL (although it breaks the spirit of the RL), does not rise the number of duals in a deck.

[bruizar]

WoTc should print something along the lines of this:

"Pseudo volcanic island
Land - Island mountain
Tap: Add U or R to your mana pool
You cannot have more than 4 volcanic island and Pseudo Volcanic island in total in your deck"

Does not break the RL (although it breaks the spirit of the RL), does not rise the number of duals in a deck.

Or a Golgothian Sylex for core sets. Garfieldian Sylex. Solved! :)

In all seriousness, if you want to achieve anything, don't wear yourself out trying to get WOTC to abolish the reserved list. Maro, Ben, years of lobbying by the most prolific Vintage players and the entire Vintage community.. Many have tried, and many have failed. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

Focus on what you CAN do.

[aedemiel]

Focus on what you CAN do.
Sooo... Nothing?

[Seymour_Asses]

Do what you can to support your local and online Legacy scenes?

[aedemiel]

Do what you can to support your local and online Legacy scenes?

Which is exactly what people have been doing for YEARS and yet the format is still dying.

[Michael Keller]

Which is exactly what people have been doing for YEARS and yet the format is still dying.

That's the point. The onus shouldn't be nor it shouldn't ever have been on the player to "support their local Legacy scene." That's precisely the problem. There should be enough organic interest and affordability in the format and support coming from above that gives Legacy and Vintage players a chance to afford and compete with the cards they want to play with so more players will naturally show up to events.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Print to demand will lead to upheaval, limited printing will lead to store owners cornering the market and flipping the product for X times the intended retail price, limited printed direst sales will lead to bots buying out all product the way it happens with Sneakers, just to release it the same day for X times the price.

You will not get your hands on reserved list cards for cheap, unless they print it like it’s venezuelan money. Look up the price of a Collectors edition set, and thats not even legal in sanctioned tournaments.

Why would it not be different than Modern Masters?

[Cire]

I would argue that the value of any investment, if you can even consider it an investment vehicle which if I was the lawyer would never do, is prone to fluctuations, hence the price dip or rise is bound to be expected, plus, there have been previous fluctuations in price and the cards returned to their original value, or even surpassed it.

Caveat that I do not think it is an investment vehicle but promissory estoppel comes from the same idea as fraud in investment law. Like I said before if this was an investment and wizards made a false statement of fact ("we will never do X") that led you as an investor to price the investment differently, when that fact is shown to be false you as an investor are allowed to sue. Promissory estoppel comes from much the same mind frame. The reason I'm bringing this up is not because I think promissory estoppel is a strong argument, but just to show that the common refrain of "investments go up and down" doesn't really hold much water.

[bruizar]

Which is exactly what people have been doing for YEARS and yet the format is still dying.

Hence, why I really believe we should give Trinity a shot. Let the players carry the format innovation instead. Community based grass roots formats are the formats that succeed and survive the longest, compare Brawl to Commander, or even Pauper, and Old School (Which makes the reserved list into a feature and is incredibly popular).

I recommend you watch this video, it's very insightful


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7mTsF2g_jc

[aedemiel]

Hence, why I really believe we should give Trinity a shot.
I feel like we're not talking about the same thing.

We don't want to play Trinity. We want to play Legacy.

[bruizar]

I feel like we're not talking about the same thing.

We don't want to play Trinity. We want to play Legacy.

If that is the case, then there are still a few other options. For instance, seriously commit to discussing budget decks and include budget alternatives in deck Primers to help people onboard.

[aedemiel]

Sure.
There are already a good chunk of budget-friendly decks in Legacy.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Sure.
There are already a good chunk of budget-friendly decks in Legacy.

ehhhhh

[aedemiel]

ehhhhh
Truth is, I'm not even joking. I started playing Legacy with Mono:g: Enchantress.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Truth is, I'm not even joking. I started playing Legacy with Mono:g: Enchantress.

Doesn't that deck play a playset of 50 dollar bridges?
And isn't that a worse version that plays hundred dollar serra sanctum?

[aedemiel]

Doesn't that deck play a playset of 50 dollar bridges?
And isn't that a worse version that plays hundred dollar serra sanctum?

I wasn't playing Bridges and the Sanctums were my first actual investment.

[Michael Keller]

ehhhhh

Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista are the best things to happen to Legacy in a long time. These two cards single-handedly dropped the investment into Legacy decks by a lot for a four-color deck.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista are the best things to happen to Legacy in a long time. These two cards single-handedly dropped the investment into Legacy decks by a lot for a four-color deck.

Sure, you can take 60 islands to any format, that doesn't make the format budget

[bruizar]

Manaless dredge is a great example of a deck that costs very little, and the Force of Wills needed to play it are almost universally good in the format.

[the Thin White Duke]

Can we back up a second? (Honest questions forth coming)
Aside from reprints, why do we need Wizards to do for Legacy? Why do people need sanctioned rules? Why can't people use proxies? Why can't we used Wizards banned list and proxies and still have tournaments? Why are people so dependant on a "higher power" for approval. This is like looking towards big government to "fix" problems that can be solved at a local or individual level.
The concept of the Community running Legacy is being completely dismissed because some people still hope to get reprints?
Sure, you can point to Vintage and say that proxies don't keep a format alive, but that's not the only reason why Vintage isn't such a thing anymore.
It's time to move on. Wizards has let this RL thing drag on too long to efficiently fix it, not do they want to deal with any legal/ fiscal/ reputational fallout for action. Fixing Legacy starts at a community level.
After all, EDH started as an independent format. Then Wizards saw it was a thing and co-opted it. Make Legacy great again from the ground level and someday WoTC might give two shits. But by, then who will need them?
Plus, people can buy "play test" cards from China.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Manaless dredge is a great example of a deck that costs very little, and the Force of Wills needed to play it are almost universally good in the format.

You just named a 90 dollar per card playset.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Can we back up a second? (Honest questions forth coming)
Aside from reprints, why do we need Wizards to do for Legacy? Why do people need sanctioned rules? Why can't people use proxies? Why can't we used Wizards banned list and proxies and still have tournaments? Why are people so dependant on a "higher power" for approval. This is like looking towards big government to "fix" problems that can be solved at a local or individual level.
The concept of the Community running Legacy is being completely dismissed because some people still hope to get reprints?
Sure, you can point to Vintage and say that proxies don't keep a format alive, but that's not the only reason why Vintage isn't such a thing anymore.
It's time to move on. Wizards has let this RL thing drag on too long to efficiently fix it, not do they want to deal with any legal/ fiscal/ reputational fallout for action. Fixing Legacy starts at a community level.
After all, EDH started as an independent format. Then Wizards saw it was a thing and co-opted it. Make Legacy great again from the ground level and someday WoTC might give two shits. But by, then who will need them?
Plus, people can buy "play test" cards from China.

Support from the mothership means visibility, prize pools, and reprints. Same reason why legacy saw a spike in play when team trios was on the pro tour

[TnA_Will]

Okay so crazy outside of the box perspective here... But if you read and really break down the SCG article here's my outside of the box take. Obviously we and Wizards can't/won't get rid of the reserve list.... But what if we do what we can do as a play group to create enough of a stir to get Wizards to take action on what they can take action on... So Outside of the box thinking what if we pull back on the use of all our Legacy/Vintage staples and simply only make EDH/Command newer product or boycott Commander all together until Wizards does the only thing I think that could save Legacy as a format at this point... That being BAN the entire reserve list from Commander!! Think about it even SCG even admitted that commander is helping spike the price of Legacy staples and made the format obsolete... So if we can't get rid of the reserve list, how bout we get rid of the use of reserve list cards in a format like EDH and allow those cards to only thrive in Legacy and Vintage constructed.... I think that would help tremendously!!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

until Wizards does the only thing I think that could save Legacy as a format at this point...

They don't want this to happen tho.

[bruizar]

I'm actually pretty happy with this thread. Before it, legacy players were in denial about the state of decline. Ignoring, rather than confirming and addressing the problem will not lead to a better situation in the future. Now that the problem is acknowledged we can do something about it, or accept it and move on.

[kombatkiwi]

I'm actually pretty happy with this thread. Before it, legacy players were in denial about the state of decline. Ignoring, rather than confirming and addressing the problem will not lead to a better situation in the future. Now that the problem is acknowledged we can do something about it, or accept it and move on.

I dont' think there's been any original idea in the last 8 pages

[Seymour_Asses]

That's the point. The onus shouldn't be nor it shouldn't ever have been on the player to "support their local Legacy scene."
The onus is on and should always be on anyone who wants to have Legacy around as a format. I'm pretty sure players of said format fall into that category.

[Mr. Safety]

Just a notion I had, which might have already been obvious to others, but here goes:

WOTC can't control the supply of legacy RL cards, they only have power to affect demand. Recently what they have been doing is printing cards that have made huge waves in all formats (War of the Spark, Modern Horizons, Throne of Eldraine.) This puts energy into eternal formats like Modern and Legacy. They are now trying to balance that out by starting new formats to take attention away from those formats, in some effort to control demand for the RL cards that are needed for Legacy. Wizards is trying to somehow add new cards to the pool, which has a peripheral effect to eternal formats, while at the same time trying to encourage players to play other formats. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.

1) "We can't print more RL cards to make Legacy more accessible."
2) "We can make the format less enticing by making other formats for people to play." (*cough* Pioneer)
3) "Hopefully this balances out demand for RL cards because people are using the newer cards in our newer formats."
4) "Eventually, we hope RL cards drop in price for the people that actually want to play Legacy."
5) "We don't expect Legacy to actually grow as a format, but maintain a level of interest that is strong enough to keep it as a format"

We can say all day long that Pioneer is designed so people can use outmoded cards from Standard's past, but it will also have the effect of pulling the resources/energy away from Legacy (which has a different card pool demand, for the most part.) They are pushing so much new shit that they are hoping all the old shit drops in relevance, in order to make the old shit more affordable for the stable base of people that want to play it. No growth, no shrinking, stable.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The onus is on and should always be on anyone who wants to have Legacy around as a format. I'm pretty sure players of said format fall into that category.

I disagree, not that there isn't any onus on the players to build their communities, but wizards knows that they need to also have a hand in it if they want the game to grow and continue to be profitable. This is why they run the mythic championship, provide fnm prizes, invented the dci, ECT.

[Michael Keller]

The onus is on and should always be on anyone who wants to have Legacy around as a format. I'm pretty sure players of said format fall into that category.

Completely disagree. Legacy players have been for *years* notorious for making long road trips to what few events there were in a given calendar year. You can go to any mom and pop LGS or large retailer and play in a Modern or Standard tournament - probably more than once a week. Legacy players don't have that luxury, and are lucky if they can get - in some places - eight people to fire an event off. That is, in my mind, a completely artificial situation created by Wizards by keeping the Reserved list intact and restricting (economically speaking) newer players from playing in these formats - which is mind-boggling amounts of stupid because they're (Legacy and Vintage) officially constructed formats that have existed for decades.

But that responsibility shouldn't completely fall on their (our) shoulders. Wizards should give the format more support in a variety of ways and make it more financially accessible to newer players and open the player base exponentially. The key is this: these are real formats that Wizards made and they exist and have existed for many, many years. The problem is that their system of management involves gross negligence with these formats, which is why people circle the wagon with the same arguments over and over again and just let things be.

That's why change is needed.

[TnA_Will]

Just a notion I had, which might have already been obvious to others, but here goes:

WOTC can't control the supply of legacy RL cards, they only have power to affect demand. Recently what they have been doing is printing cards that have made huge waves in all formats (War of the Spark, Modern Horizons, Throne of Eldraine.) This puts energy into eternal formats like Modern and Legacy. They are now trying to balance that out by starting new formats to take attention away from those formats, in some effort to control demand for the RL cards that are needed for Legacy.

The problem you aren't taking into account is Wizards promotion of Commander which happens to use and according to Star City have massively contributed to the spike in Legacy and Vintage cards... If wizards was really trying to do this they would ban all reserve list cards from Commander.

[Michael Keller]

The problem you aren't taking into account is Wizards promotion of Commander which happens to use and according to Star City have massively contributed to the spike in Legacy and Vintage cards... If wizards was really trying to do this they would ban all reserve list cards from Commander.

Or they could ban cards on the Reserved List for Legacy. What in the hell would that format look like?!

[Smuggo]

Thing about the RL is, it can be considered totally irrelevant for community-organised events. I used to play at a London monthly tournament that allowed proxies and it was generally well attended, and they gave out prizes of format staples including dual lands. It was a great way to do it IMO. Anyone can play any deck due to proxies and you could win stuff to allow you to play sanctioned.

But sanctioned is maybe where the problem lies, especially regarding WotC. WotC's official events don't allow proxies, but in the main the prizes are lame and not legacy-relevant (prize tix you'll exchange for standard booster boxes and sell on ebay) or maybe they do a GP but those have a heavily topended prize structure. I feel like if WotC is going to insist you play with real cards then they should at least offer some sort of prize structure for legacy events that befits the format and recognises the fact that the decks are an expensive investment. That way people might feel more willing to stump up the cash for them knowing they will have chances to win decent prizes.

[Seymour_Asses]

Completely disagree. Legacy players have been for *years* notorious for making long road trips to what few events there were in a given calendar year. You can go to any mom and pop LGS or large retailer and play in a Modern or Standard tournament - probably more than once a week. Legacy players don't have that luxury, and are lucky if they can get - in some places - eight people to fire an event off. That is, in my mind, a completely artificial situation created by Wizards by keeping the Reserved list intact and restricting (economically speaking) newer players from playing in these formats - which is mind-boggling amounts of stupid because they're (Legacy and Vintage) officially constructed formats that have existed for decades.

But that responsibility shouldn't completely fall on their (our) shoulders. Wizards should give the format more support in a variety of ways and make it more financially accessible to newer players and open the player base exponentially. The key is this: these are real formats that Wizards made and they exist and have existed for many, many years. The problem is that their system of management involves gross negligence with these formats, which is why people circle the wagon with the same arguments over and over again and just let things be.

That's why change is needed.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The Reserved List isn't going anywhere unless it's financial beneficial for WotC. Abolishing it would devalue so many collections and the stock of the stores that sell Wizards' product and host their tournaments, pissing off a ton of people and creating a shitstorm that they'd have to clean up as well as possible legal repercussions just for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (and Commander, to be fair) players that I can't see it happening. They have formats that make money. They don't need to dig up the decomposing corpses of Vintage and Legacy to bring in players.

I agree that the responsibility of keeping Legacy around shouldn't fall completely on the shoulders of the players, but if it's not bringing in money and Wizards gradually stops supporting the format then who is left?

[TnA_Will]

I agree that the responsibility of keeping Legacy around shouldn't fall completely on the shoulders of the players, but if it's not bringing in money and Wizards gradually stops supporting the format then who is left?

I believe it is bringing in money into Wizards and has brought in money hand over fist the past couple years.... My argument for this is commander and the master editions and chase "hidden treasures"... Seriously without Commander allowing cards like Force of Will and other eternal(Legacy/Vintage) staples do we really think that Legacy and Vintage players would have pushed the sales of Eternal Masters so ridiculously high, or was it people who play commander chasing after cards that were eternal staples...

I honestly believe Wizards helped to create the "dying" formats with the inclusion of cards into Commander and the promotion of it as a format in whole. Maybe we as a community should go to trying Legacy events as our own thing and keep banned lists community driven? In all honesty there are a lot of cards that are currently banned that I personally do not need to be.

[Mr. Safety]

The problem you aren't taking into account is Wizards promotion of Commander which happens to use and according to Star City have massively contributed to the spike in Legacy and Vintage cards... If wizards was really trying to do this they would ban all reserve list cards from Commander.

That's a good point, one I missed. I think this is another thing that they can't control, honestly. Didn't Commander start as a grass-roots format among players a long time before WOTC recognized/promoted it? That is similar to how legacy was started, IIRC.

[TnA_Will]

That's a good point, one I missed. I think this is another thing that they can't control, honestly. Didn't Commander start as a grass-roots format among players a long time before WOTC recognized/promoted it? That is similar to how legacy was started, IIRC.

Kinda but not really... Legacy was a format that Wizards created and just called something else and it "became" Legacy with name changes. I've been playing since 1994 and this was the original "Legacy" format.... https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-glossary-type-15-2002-03-25

[Seymour_Asses]

I believe it is bringing in money into Wizards and has brought in money hand over fist the past couple years.... My argument for this is commander and the master editions and chase "hidden treasures"... Seriously without Commander allowing cards like Force of Will and other eternal(Legacy/Vintage) staples do we really think that Legacy and Vintage players would have pushed the sales of Eternal Masters so ridiculously high, or was it people who play commander chasing after cards that were eternal staples...

I honestly believe Wizards helped to create the "dying" formats with the inclusion of cards into Commander and the promotion of it as a format in whole. Maybe we as a community should go to trying Legacy events as our own thing and keep banned lists community driven? In all honesty there are a lot of cards that are currently banned that I personally do not need to be.
Right, Legacy itself hasn't been bring in as much money as Legacy legal cards have due to Commander.

I don't know if making the banlist community driven is a good decision (although I could certainly see Mind Twist coming off). As far as organizing events goes though, I can't really see any other option at this point.

[Michael Keller]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The Reserved List isn't going anywhere unless it's financial beneficial for WotC. Abolishing it would devalue so many collections and the stock of the stores that sell Wizards' product and host their tournaments, pissing off a ton of people and creating a shitstorm that they'd have to clean up as well as possible legal repercussions just for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (and Commander, to be fair) players that I can't see it happening. They have formats that make money. They don't need to dig up the decomposing corpses of Vintage and Legacy to bring in players.

I agree that the responsibility of keeping Legacy around shouldn't fall completely on the shoulders of the players, but if it's not bringing in money and Wizards gradually stops supporting the format then who is left?

Right, but you’re missing the point. The point is that if these formats are Wizards-supported and EXIST, and the stigma is that they’re effectively useless because they’re “dying,” then either fix it to get more players in, or defunct them and get it over with. Don’t put the onus on players to wonder or gamble if they can get to eight people. Confidence and format spectacle brings asses to events. The point is that no other formats have this problem, which is a problem - just Legacy and Vintage.

That’s the point of this discussion.

[Seymour_Asses]

Right, but you’re missing the point. The point is that if these formats are Wizards-supported and EXIST, and the stigma is that they’re effectively useless because they’re “dying,” then either fix it to get more players in, or defunct them and get it over with. Don’t put the onus on players to wonder or gamble if they can get to eight people. Confidence and format spectacle brings asses to events. The point is that no other formats have this problem, which is a problem - just Legacy and Vintage.

That’s the point of this discussion.
I'm not missing the point. If a format exists but it's not profitable to Wizards, they might not see a financial incentive to "fix" it or to deal with it at all beyond the ban list. But if they "defunct" it, it will be seen as an obvious slight to players. RL cards will sell to Commander players regardless of the existence or Wizards' support of Legacy or Vintage. I definitely agree that confidence and spectacle put asses in seats, but how much money do they actually make WotC?

Personally, I think that supporting Vintage and Legacy is a good move for Wizards, if only for the spectacle value. Still, without an active community, this won't matter much.

[kombatkiwi]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The Reserved List isn't going anywhere unless it's financial beneficial for WotC.
It would be financially beneficial for WOTC as long as the revenue from new ex-RL products outweighs any community backlash (legal or otherwise)


Abolishing it would devalue so many collections and the stock of the stores that sell Wizards' product and host their tournaments, pissing off a ton of people and creating a shitstorm that they'd have to clean up as well as possible legal repercussions just for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (and Commander, to be fair) players that I can't see it happening.
It would also make a ton of people (i.e. 99% of people in this and similar communities) happy that their favourite formats become more accessible and more widely played, commander players get dual lands for cheaper, stores potentially get a new product to sell that's extremely popular, etc


They have formats that make money. They don't need to dig up the decomposing corpses of Vintage and Legacy to bring in players.
"They're already making money. Why would they want to make more money?" good one lol

[Seymour_Asses]

It would be financially beneficial for WOTC as long as the revenue from new ex-RL products outweighs any community backlash (legal or otherwise)


It would also make a ton of people (i.e. 99% of people in this and similar communities) happy that their favourite formats become more accessible and more widely played, commander players get dual lands for cheaper, stores potentially get a new product to sell that's extremely popular, etc


"They're already making money. Why would they want to make more money?" good one lol
You're not actually saying anything here. You're vaguely outlining potential benefits without addressing the drawbacks.

[Mr. Safety]

It would also make a ton of people (i.e. 99% of people in this and similar communities) happy that their favourite formats become more accessible and more widely played, commander players get dual lands for cheaper, stores potentially get a new product to sell that's extremely popular, etc

If Masters sets are any sort of benchmark, reprinting eternal-playable cards is a golden goose for WOTC. If they abolish the reserved list and commit to reprinting eternal staples that were previously unavailable you will see a certifiable stampede of players marching into Legacy and maybe even Vintage.

My opinion is that for paper magic, the best solution is to abolish the reserved list. Digital is already super affordable for Legacy when compared to paper. It's a question of whether WOTC wants their product to continue being played in paper forever or to eventually switch over to pure digital. If they switch over to just digital in the future, the reserved list is meaningless. This is the central question for WOTC, which also explains why they are constantly experimenting with new names/ideas for tournaments (Pro Tour, Mythic Championship, Magic-fest, etc.) One thing that I believe really boosted paper magic was the constructed team trio events (Standard/Modern/Legacy). From what I saw, everyone loved seeing Legacy at that level of play.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If Masters sets are any sort of benchmark, reprinting eternal-playable cards is a golden goose for WOTC. If they abolish the reserved list and commit to reprinting eternal staples that were previously unavailable you will see a certifiable stampede of players marching into Legacy and maybe even Vintage.

They also had to stop printing masters sets though, so it's possible that ship has sailed.


My opinion is that for paper magic, the best solution is to abolish the reserved list. Digital is already super affordable for Legacy when compared to paper.
That isn't really saying much.

[Michael Keller]

I'm not missing the point. If a format exists but it's not profitable to Wizards, they might not see a financial incentive to "fix" it or to deal with it at all beyond the ban list. But if they "defunct" it, it will be seen as an obvious slight to players. RL cards will sell to Commander players regardless of the existence or Wizards' support of Legacy or Vintage. I definitely agree that confidence and spectacle put asses in seats, but how much money do they actually make WotC?

Personally, I think that supporting Vintage and Legacy is a good move for Wizards, if only for the spectacle value. Still, without an active community, this won't matter much.

That's exactly the problem.

Legacy and Vintage are perceived as formats that are inaccessible due to obvious price and barrier of entry costs. That is literally what's killing both of those formats, but the true culprit is the Reserved List (and to a lesser extent Wizards showcasing these formats). My point is that they are official formats. But they are clearly put on the shelf in favor of other formats like Standard, Modern and Pioneer. That's the part that's unacceptable. These formats should have equal footing from a support perspective and be economically feasible for newer players to play. That's the whole crux of this discussion, thread and situation.

The fact that someone new that would want to play in these formats can't play simply because they check the price of the most popular cards in those formats and sees an absolutely egregious price tag coupled with no support from the top is incredibly unattractive. But that's not the player's fault - that's Wizards' fault because the player has the intent to want to play - but can't afford the ridiculous price tag for the cards. The only way to foster a larger community is to make the formats accessible. And if they don't see these formats as accessible or profitable without destroying the RL or making drastic changes, then just get it over with and end them because clearly that's what everyone sees coming anyhow.

[Mr. Safety]

They also had to stop printing masters sets though, so it's possible that ship has sailed.

They just did a quasi-masters set with Modern Horizons, which included a ton of reprints for eternal formats. Call it whatever you want, they will continue to reprint eternal playable cards. Mixing it with new cards like this makes it a better prospect after exhausting the reprints-only model that wasn't selling masters sets. They didn't *have* to stop printing masters sets; they chose to stop because it wasn't a workable model anymore.

[Mr. Safety]

That isn't really saying much.

I edited my response. The question for WOTC is paper vs digital, not RL or no-RL. That's the root of the issue.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

They just did a quasi-masters set with Modern Horizons, which included a ton of reprints for eternal formats. Call it whatever you want, they will continue to reprint eternal playable cards. Mixing it with new cards like this makes it a better prospect after exhausting the reprints-only model that wasn't selling masters sets. They didn't *have* to stop printing masters sets; they chose to stop because it wasn't a workable model anymore.
Didn't you just say we should be using this as the benchmark?

[bruizar]

That's exactly the problem.

Legacy and Vintage are perceived as formats that are inaccessible due to obvious price and barrier of entry costs. That is literally what's killing both of those formats, but the true culprit is the Reserved List (and to a lesser extent Wizards showcasing these formats). My point is that they are official formats. But they are clearly put on the shelf in favor of other formats like Standard, Modern and Pioneer. That's the part that's unacceptable. These formats should have equal footing from a support perspective and be economically feasible for newer players to play. That's the whole crux of this discussion, thread and situation.

The fact that someone new that would want to play in these formats can't play simply because they check the price of the most popular cards in those formats and sees an absolutely egregious price tag coupled with no support from the top is incredibly unattractive. But that's not the player's fault - that's Wizards' fault because the player has the intent to want to play - but can't afford the ridiculous price tag for the cards. The only way to foster a larger community is to make the formats accessible. And if they don't see these formats as accessible or profitable without destroying the RL or making drastic changes, then just get it over with and end them because clearly that's what everyone sees coming anyhow.

You fail to understand the mythos around Vintage. The unobtainability of the power 9, and especially the card to rule all cards, Black Lotus, instills aspiration and sparks the dreams, hopes and imagination of younger hearts. It is in part _because_ of this mythos, that standard becomes comparably economically attractive and players commit years of their lives collecting. If you compare Standard to Legend of the Five Rings, or video games and board games, it's still a luxury. Keyforge is no more expensive than €12,- for a prebuilt deck.

[Whitefaces]

Nah, I would have loved to get a Lotus for years but it's way too much money to justify, especially when you factor in how much you can use it. This 'unobtainability' is very real. Sure you may be able to sell it for more down the line, and you 'lose' money by buying and playing standard, but you get to play the game then. That's what people want.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Silly to assume people actually want to play magic, clearly the appeal is buying and selling playing cards.

[Wrath of Pie]

We can say all day long that Pioneer is designed so people can use outmoded cards from Standard's past, but it will also have the effect of pulling the resources/energy away from Legacy (which has a different card pool demand, for the most part.) They are pushing so much new shit that they are hoping all the old shit drops in relevance, in order to make the old shit more affordable for the stable base of people that want to play it. No growth, no shrinking, stable.

Pioneer is actually going to pull more from Modern than Legacy if designed properly, because it will be a "fair" alternative to Modern and be far more accessible as well.

I think everyone here is thinking that Legacy is some big thing, and in the world of Magic it really isn't. As stated before, SCG kept Legacy in the SCG Tour for far longer than they really should have because they cared about the format and really could have replaced it with something like Pauper a while ago. (Modern will potentially face the same fate if Pioneer proves popular enough.)

[Michael Keller]

You fail to understand the mythos around Vintage. The unobtainability of the power 9, and especially the card to rule all cards, Black Lotus, instills aspiration and sparks the dreams, hopes and imagination of younger hearts. It is in part _because_ of this mythos, that standard becomes comparably economically attractive and players commit years of their lives collecting. If you compare Standard to Legend of the Five Rings, or video games and board games, it's still a luxury. Keyforge is no more expensive than €12,- for a prebuilt deck.

I really don't. I play Vintage and have for over twenty years ("Type I").

I think you're failing to understand the whole of this discussion. Again - these are sanctioned, official-constructed formats. They are apart of the Wizards Magic: the Gathering portfolio of organized tournament play. There are practically zero opportunities to play sanctioned Vintage anymore. Legacy is well on its way. The point is that if these formats are part of the portfolio, they should be accessible for newer players.

I'm not saying reprint the Power 9. What I am saying is, at a minimum, reprint dual lands so people can play Legacy. Or ban everything on the RL. Vintage is a whole other discussion because of the step-up on pricing. Legacy to that degree is in a "safer" place because the most expensive card legal in the format is still thousands of dollars cheaper than the most expensive Vintage-legal card.

EDIT: Just for objectivity's sake - I have a set of Beta duals and Power, so I'm not being biased. I actually wouldn't give two shits if my power or duals tanked. Do you have any idea how giddy I'd be if my LGS nailed 20-30 for Vintage (sanctioned) every week? I would absolutely take that loss over the inability to use my cards any day of the week.

[Airwave]

Pioneer is actually going to pull more from Modern than Legacy if designed properly, because it will be a "fair" alternative to Modern and be far more accessible as well.

I think everyone here is thinking that Legacy is some big thing, and in the world of Magic it really isn't. As stated before, SCG kept Legacy in the SCG Tour for far longer than they really should have because they cared about the format and really could have replaced it with something like Pauper a while ago. (Modern will potentially face the same fate if Pioneer proves popular enough.)

Exactly this. My hope for legacy is that it will be survive thanks to an influx of disappointed modern players. Sure, most of them will probably turn to pioneer in the end, but you don't need that many people to keep legacy running.

Of course this is on the assumption that people will like legacy better than modern (which I think is true :tongue:) and that prices won't go through the roof like in vintage.

[Michael Keller]

I think everyone here is thinking that Legacy is some big thing, and in the world of Magic it really isn't. As stated before, SCG kept Legacy in the SCG Tour for far longer than they really should have because they cared about the format and really could have replaced it with something like Pauper a while ago. (Modern will potentially face the same fate if Pioneer proves popular enough.)

You're spot on, and that's the problem: Legacy is not some big thing - but it's not Legacy's fault. If you fix what's broken with the format (and with Vintage), it will be a big thing. This argument goes in circles because people are resigning themselves to the format's insignificance compared to other formats, when clearly a lot of people argue that Legacy is the best format and most fun, it's just too expensive to get into.

Again - that's not the format's fault, it's the fault of the R.L. and Wizards just shelving these older formats because they don't care. And therein lies the problem and why something needs to be done.

[non-inflammable]

Exactly this. My hope for legacy is that it will be survive thanks to an influx of disappointed modern players. Sure, most of them will probably turn to pioneer in the end, but you don't need that many people to keep legacy running.

i like your thoughts on this. i almost beg people to come play legacy and even offer to build decks for people as long as they show.
we even allow proxies. even if we don't get 8 people we still just play 3-4 rounds; just good enough to show...

[Michael Keller]

i like your thoughts on this. i almost beg people to come play legacy and even offer to build decks for people as long as they show.
we even allow proxies

You shouldn't have to do that, though.

[non-inflammable]

You shouldn't have to do that, though.

without a single doubt, you're right. at the LGS, i started saturday night legacy almost ten years ago...
i still feel like it's my responsibility and will continue to rally the troops as long as i can. see you tomorrow night?

[Michael Keller]

without a single doubt, you're right. at the LGS, i started saturday night legacy almost ten years ago...
i still feel like it's my responsibility and will continue to rally the troops as long as i can. see you tomorrow night?

I'm down.

[bruizar]

EDIT: Just for objectivity's sake - I have a set of Beta duals and Power, so I'm not being biased. I actually wouldn't give two shits if my power or duals tanked. Do you have any idea how giddy I'd be if my LGS nailed 20-30 for Vintage (sanctioned) every week? I would absolutely take that loss over the inability to use my cards any day of the week.


Then you don't have to play, you're already a winner :)

[Michael Keller]

Then you don't have to play, you're already a winner :)

I just want to play, man. A lot of people do. I'm just so tired of Legacy getting kicked to the curb and the stigma it gets as a "dying" format. All of it is bullshit. The format isn't really dying in the sense it isn't popular, because if it were, it'd be long gone. It's being hurt though in the sense that it's pricing people out because of the god damn Reserve List.

[non-inflammable]

It's being hurt though in the sense that it's pricing people out because of the god damn Reserve List.

Legacy is being hurt by the RL but there's also a subtle issue that i've encountered many times before when offering to build decks for people.
here's me talking to mtg players at the LGS: "Hi. Would you play legacy if I build a deck for you?"
their response: "Sorry, I can't afford to play legacy."

translation: i don't want to get my butt kicked playing legacy, i'd rather just play the format i'm good at

[Michael Keller]

Legacy is being hurt by the RL but there's also a subtle issue that i've encountered many times before when offering to build decks for people.
it usually goes like this when talking to people at the LGS: "Hi. Would you play legacy if I build a deck for you?" "Sorry, I can't afford to play legacy."

translation: i don't want to get my butt kicked playing legacy, i'd rather just play the format i'm good at

The issue is focus. Wizards is going to continue to focus on newer stuff rather than older stuff. And that's just a really sad reality. The problem I have is that the formats *exist* and are being left to die. That's the biggest thing for me. It's black and white: get rid of it, or support it. They cannot keep going like this thinking it will be fine, because it won't.

They have to do something about this.

[Michael Keller]

I sent a certified snail mail letter to Brian Goldner (http://www.headquartersinfo.com/hasbro-headquarters-information/). The guy probably won't read it, but I sent it regardless. Went right over Wizards' head.

[Wrath of Pie]

The point is that if these formats are part of the portfolio, they should be accessible for newer players.

Should all formats be designed to appeal to new players?


You're spot on, and that's the problem: Legacy is not some big thing - but it's not Legacy's fault. If you fix what's broken with the format (and with Vintage), it will be a big thing. This argument goes in circles because people are resigning themselves to the format's insignificance compared to other formats, when clearly a lot of people argue that Legacy is the best format and most fun, it's just too expensive to get into.

Again - that's not the format's fault, it's the fault of the R.L. and Wizards just shelving these older formats because they don't care. And therein lies the problem and why something needs to be done.
I think you are stubbornly wanting them to support paper Legacy, and that won't happen as long as the current model is profitable.

There is also the issue of Commander being the biggest eternal format (and possibly biggest format overall) so the eternal support is going there, so even in the hypothetical situation the Reserved List suddenly vanishes, Wizards would cater to Commander players first because that is where the money is.

That leads to taking advantage of Magic Online, because it has no concept of a Reserved List and the format is far more affordable and accessible there than it will ever be in paper.

[Michael Keller]

Should all formats be designed to appeal to new players?


I think you are stubbornly wanting them to support paper Legacy, and that won't happen as long as the current model is profitable.

There is also the issue of Commander being the biggest eternal format (and possibly biggest format overall) so the eternal support is going there, so even in the hypothetical situation the Reserved List suddenly vanishes, Wizards would cater to Commander players first because that is where the money is.

That leads to taking advantage of Magic Online, because it has no concept of a Reserved List and the format is far more affordable and accessible there than it will ever be in paper.

I don’t think there’s anything “stubborn” about wanting an exponentially larger player base for a very popular format whose only strike is that the primary staples of the format won’t ever be reprinted and price people out. How fair do you think that is?

They made the format. They created it. In what parallel universe does it make sense to create something - only to purposely watch it “die” because they absolutely know people can’t afford it and they won’t do anything about it? That’s egregious, and to force those people into playing online and away from paper Magic where the real interactive Magic core lies is even worse.

I believe Legacy is salvageable for entry if they can solve that problem for new players. But Vintage is much harder because the staples of that format are thousands more. But that’s the point altogether: Why make a format...and keep it, if you know people can’t afford it and you won’t spotlight it at all?

It’s like I said: kill it or do something about it. Stop letting these wonderful formats just fade away.

[Wrath of Pie]

I don’t think there’s anything “stubborn” about wanting an exponentially larger player base for a very popular format whose only strike is that the primary staples of the format won’t ever be reprinted and price people out. You’re damn right I’m stubborn about it.

I think the idea behind Legacy is more popular than the format itself. There is a reason that Modern and Pioneer were created, after all.


They made the format. They created it. In what parallel universe does it make sense to create something - only to purposely watch it “die” because they absolutely know people can’t afford it and they won’t do anything about it? That’s egregious, and to force those people into playing online and away from paper Magic where the real interactive Magic core lies is even worse.

I believe Legacy is salvageable for entry if they can solve that problem for new players. But Vintage is much harder because the staples of that format are thousands more. But that’s the point altogether: Why make a format...and keep it, if you know people can’t afford it and you won’t spotlight it at all?

It’s like I said: kill it or do something about it. Stop letting these wonderful formats just fade away.

You are missing the whole point - Legacy is not designed to appeal to new players, and honestly that would not be something you want because it would take a ridiculous amount of bans to sculpt Legacy to mimic the feel of Standard so it could appeal to them. (Wizards has the advantage of market research, so they know what their customers actually want. Whether or not they can consistently deliver is another matter, because Standard has been pretty bad for a while.) Better to let Standard appeal to new players, and then some of them will have interest in other formats eventually.

[Michael Keller]

I think the idea behind Legacy is more popular than the format itself. There is a reason that Modern and Pioneer were created, after all.



You are missing the whole point - Legacy is not designed to appeal to new players, and honestly that would not be something you want because it would take a ridiculous amount of bans to sculpt Legacy to mimic the feel of Standard so it could appeal to them. (Wizards has the advantage of market research, so they know what their customers actually want. Whether or not they can consistently deliver is another matter, because Standard has been pretty bad for a while.) Better to let Standard appeal to new players, and then some of them will have interest in other formats eventually.

I got the whole point and I completely understand your POV. If that’s what it takes, then it needs to be done - that’s exactly what I’ve been saying. Something, anything, needs to be done to revive these formats and entice newer players into them. Otherwise, they will just rot away.

Can’t stand by for that.

[ed06288]

I think wotc let something good get away from them. It was once a popular format with players. And they could have targeted masters sets towards legacy too.

[ESG]

It was once a popular format with players.

Correction: Legacy is a popular format and has plenty of players. Star City Games gave the format a boost, but the format was well-established before then. Almost every single year I've been playing Legacy, people have bemoaned, "Legacy is dying," and it's been really tiresome and hasn't ever been true.

I would love to see the Reserved List eliminated, but it probably won't be.

[Emurian]

I would love to see the Reserved List eliminated, but it probably won't be.

I would like WoTC to allow Legacy tournaments to proxy 12 cards orso per player, that would keep the reserved list intact, new ppl can play the format, and they can quickly swap over to another deck if they desire to do so with proxies.

People that have legacy decks wont mind, and they in return can try out some stuff they haven't tried before (You wanna run that Abyss, Moat, Nether Void, Candelabra you always dreamed off? Go for it, your only missing Tabernacle for lands ? Well no worries) Also makes it so if a new card explodes in price (Wrenn) people don't have to shelf out cash asap to keep their decks up to date (something im running into thats getting harder as I have 15+ decks irl)

[Seymour_Asses]

Correction: Legacy is a popular format and has plenty of players. Star City Games gave the format a boost, but the format was well-established before then. Almost every single year I've been playing Legacy, people have bemoaned, "Legacy is dying," and it's been really tiresome and hasn't ever been true.

I would love to see the Reserved List eliminated, but it probably won't be.
Sounds about right. Have a beer!

[Smuggo]

I would like WoTC to allow Legacy tournaments to proxy 12 cards orso per player, that would keep the reserved list intact, new ppl can play the format, and they can quickly swap over to another deck if they desire to do so with proxies.

People that have legacy decks wont mind, and they in return can try out some stuff they haven't tried before (You wanna run that Abyss, Moat, Nether Void, Candelabra you always dreamed off? Go for it, your only missing Tabernacle for lands ? Well no worries) Also makes it so if a new card explodes in price (Wrenn) people don't have to shelf out cash asap to keep their decks up to date (something im running into thats getting harder as I have 15+ decks irl)

I would prefer something like this rather than abolishing the reserve list. I'm happy to play in tournaments where proxies are allowed even though I wouldn't use them myself, even the whole deck being proxied is ok with me.

[pettdan]

Allowing proxies in sanctioned tournaments would potentially lead to players requesting this for other formats, asking for more proxies, risking to wither trust in value of cards on a deeper level than the abolishment of the reserved list represents. Note that the potential is enough for wotc to try to avoid this.

Well, that's clearly just my view on it.

[Smuggo]

Allowing proxies in sanctioned tournaments would potentially lead to players requesting this for other formats, asking for more proxies, risking to wither trust in value of cards on a deeper level than the abolishment of the reserved list represents. Note that the potential is enough for wotc to try to avoid this.

Well, that's clearly just my view on it.

Maybe. I guess they could limit it to RL cards so it wouldn't be relevant to other formats.

I mean, eventually those Chinese forgeries are going to get so good it will be hard to tell the difference anyway...

[pettdan]

Yeah, counterfeits becoming indistinguishable from authentic cards is one of a couple of ways to make the RL less of a financial bottleneck for entry into the format.

[BenBleiweiss]

I would like WoTC to allow Legacy tournaments to proxy 12 cards orso per player, that would keep the reserved list intact, new ppl can play the format, and they can quickly swap over to another deck if they desire to do so with proxies.

I think there's even less chance of this than of WoTC abolishing the Reserve List. FWIW, the biggest change that could realistically be made now would be to allow Gold-Bordered cards in tournament play (both WC & CED/CEI). All of these sets are officially WOTC produced, and double-faced cards eliminated the argument that "cards need to have a Magic back".

[Machinus]

Older players will remember that SCG used to support Vintage tournaments. They eventually had to eliminate support for them. Pete did not issue any explanation at the time, as Ben has done for us, but I am certain that barrier to entry was a significant component of the decision.

We can learn some lessons from this history. Almost no one runs Vintage tournaments anymore, besides WotC and Ray Robillard. It would be fair to say that the format died out, but it is not necessarily fair to blame SCG for that, either as the proximate cause, or by holding them responsible for supporting non-profitable formats. They saw an opportunity to make money from dealing very rare and expensive Magic cards, and they took that, until the market dried up. They are a business, after all, and we are fortunate that they actually care about and like the game they are selling cards from.

However, in my opinion, Legacy is not going to become dormant the way Vintage did. As much as I loved Vintage, Legacy reached higher heights of balance, diversity, and competitiveness, and it does have more accessible options for play (although it is difficult to call them "Budget" anymore). Partially based on the lessons we learned from Vintage, Legacy evolved and grew differently. Legacy has a much wider playerbase, and there will always be some demand for the format. Vintage players went through our Dark Ages a long time ago. It is now up to the players to self-organize, self-promote, and come up with our own way to play the game. For exmaple, proxies are easier to make and much higher quality than they used to be, and I have seen this option already implemented at many stores.

I am sure that many players already noticed over the years the increased difficulty of getting new players into the format, and increased difficulty of getting consistently high attendance at local tournaments. My stories about the rapidly inflating value of my collection went from humorous to counter-productive when I realized that, just like Ben pointed out, the staples of our beloved format are simply as out of reach as Moxen were during the heyday of Vintage. My advice to Legacy players, based on my decades of playing Eternal Magic, is to come to terms with the permanence of the reserved list, and work around it.


I think there's even less chance of this than of WoTC abolishing the Reserve List. FWIW, the biggest change that could realistically be made now would be to allow Gold-Bordered cards in tournament play (both WC & CED/CEI). All of these sets are officially WOTC produced, and double-faced cards eliminated the argument that "cards need to have a Magic back".

Hi Ben. I would just like to thank you for coming to our forum and giving us your thoughts, even though you have no obligation to do that. I hope you and other SCG staff will continue to participate in the community on social media.

[TnA_Will]

I think there's even less chance of this than of WoTC abolishing the Reserve List. FWIW, the biggest change that could realistically be made now would be to allow Gold-Bordered cards in tournament play (both WC & CED/CEI). All of these sets are officially WOTC produced, and double-faced cards eliminated the argument that "cards need to have a Magic back".

Thank you so much Ben for contributing!! I actually respect you and star city for just putting the truth out there! I emailed Mark R. based off a twitter post he made asking him to forward the idea of Wizards banning the reserve list from Commander as that was the only thing I could think of that could at least keep life support going for the format I've loved for so many years!! I've traveled to star city events all over the eastern U.S. for years to play in Legacy and will continue to say nothing but great things about that company and the support they gave Legacy players!!

Thank you again for contributing to this thread and the overall discussion!

[Airwave]

So almost 1600 people for legacy in Bologna, quite a signal! :smile:

[Wrath of Pie]

So almost 1600 people for legacy in Bologna, quite a signal! :smile:
Not really a signal, it is very intentional for major Legacy events to be sparse which leads to greater attendance.

[kirkusjones]

Thank you so much Ben for contributing!! I actually respect you and star city for just putting the truth out there! I emailed Mark R. based off a twitter post he made asking him to forward the idea of Wizards banning the reserve list from Commander as that was the only thing I could think of that could at least keep life support going for the format I've loved for so many years!! I've traveled to star city events all over the eastern U.S. for years to play in Legacy and will continue to say nothing but great things about that company and the support they gave Legacy players!!

Thank you again for contributing to this thread and the overall discussion!

If you want Reserved List stuff banned in Commander, you need to convince the Rules Committee, who are a group independent of WOTC. Post on the rules forum here (http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/) about it.

I'll save you some time, though. There's little to no chance the RC, Wizards and stores like SCG would risk pissing off the massive EDH fanbase just for a harebrained scheme that might monkey paw Legacy to life for a short period of time.

The only answer is to abolish the Reserved List.

[Airwave]

Not really a signal, it is very intentional for major Legacy events to be sparse which leads to greater attendance.

I disagree. I've read "legacy is dead" a million times now. Dead formats don't get 1600 people together.

[Mr. Safety]

Not really a signal, it is very intentional for major Legacy events to be sparse which leads to greater attendance.

Just to be clear, by 'sparse' you mean 'not occurring frequently'? I would agree with that premise, considering there are very few official Legacy events that happen anymore. Most are grassroots local events like 1-2K's.

[Wrath of Pie]

I disagree. I've read "legacy is dead" a million times now. Dead formats don't get 1600 people together.

Entirely possible when the major event frequency is low enough that the format fans can build up anticipation for one of the few opportunities to play in one.

Modern will be facing a similar reality soon enough, Legacy has institutional advantages that Modern does not.

[PirateKing]

Modern will be facing a similar reality soon enough, Legacy has institutional advantages that Modern does not.

How do you mean? Like we're used to being "dead" so we're less phased when there aren't biweekly SCG main events?

[Wrath of Pie]

How do you mean? Like we're used to being "dead" so we're less phased when there aren't biweekly SCG main events?
Legacy has the big advantage of providing the unique play experience that Legacy players want.

To most Modern players, however, a format that lacks color diversity does not appeal. As it turns out, many of those players moved to Pioneer, hoping that it has both color diversity and strategic diversity, the latter which Modern is relatively lacking at the moment. Since it does not have an inherent advantage like Legacy does, this will cause Modern to lose out unless Pioneer ultimately fails at its objectives.

The biggest advantage Modern has is that it is more accessible than Legacy (which matters for Team Trios events, although I would not be surprised if they replaced Modern with a Limited format at some point, or even a custom Cube if that was feasible) but that alone is barely an advantage when Pioneer has the exact same benefit plus has more innate potential.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm pretty sure WOTC wanted Modern to replace Extended, but it has been plagued with the same problems of that old format: constantly broken. It has had it's moments of healthy metagames, but generally it will always cycle into an unhealthy one given enough time. Pioneer is their cold re-restart, hoping to make an Extended that doesn't need constant watching. They have been fast and furious with bannings, but that will slow down eventually I think. I can see the possibility, if small, that it isn't Legacy that dies because of Pioneer, but Modern. Modern has had an identity crisis since it's inception, something I don't think Pioneer will have.

To be slightly reductionist:

1) Vintage = all the broken shit, some of it restricted, the P9 format
2) Legacy = most of the broken shit, the Brainstorm format
3) Modern = lots of almost-broken shit, the socially awkward middle-child between Legacy and Standard, the 'go fast or go home' format
4) Standard = play the best shit available, the 'good stuff' format
5) Pioneer = play the best shit available but with a bigger card pool, the 'cool new kid' format

Who do you think gets left behind in this scenario? I don't think it's Legacy. Pioneer seems like an attempt to bridge the growing chasm between Standard and Modern, something that Modern tried to do between Legacy and Standard. However, without cards rotating out of Modern (like Extended did back in the day) it will always be an awkward bridge between Standard and Legacy. There is a fairly dedicated Legacy community, one that puts up local events all the time. I don't know if Modern has that sort of support structure if it loses steam and Pioneer ends up being the Pro-player format of choice instead. My gut tells me the Modern community is leagues away from being as strong as the Legacy community.

The craziest part is I don't think they are done yet. In another 5 years there will need to be another format, one that bridges Pioneer with Standard. At that point you can go with the Geico method, skip the middle-men and get into Legacy for a truly eternal format. The extinction of a weaker format is Legacy's gain.

[H]

The craziest part is I don't think they are done yet. In another 5 years there will need to be another format, one that bridges Pioneer with Standard. At that point you can go with the Geico method, skip the middle-men and get into Legacy for a truly eternal format. The extinction of a weaker format is Legacy's gain.
Of course, you are realizing that the "true" nature of larger formats are not expensive realms of diversity, but rather is constrictive and, generally, homogenous.

It was pretty easy to see this throwing of the baby out with the bathwater would happen to Modern. It just happened sooner than I, or most people, expected. It will happen with Pioneer, naturally.

If you want a sandbox format, where anything is possible, you need to actively and persistently cull anything and everything at the top of "playability." We've already seen this happen in Pioneer, where several cards had to be culled pretty immediately. Now, the format is still working out what is, or is not, viable, and as even marginally more powerful cards come to populate the format, the realm of "viability" will be constricted and look ever more and more homogenous, until "disrupted" either by a ban, or by a powerful new printing.

[Michael Keller]

The OP and this thread in general are basically out of commission. I've been looking on social media and places elsewhere, and it looks like Legacy is turbo-charged with tournaments popping up everywhere I'm able to find.

And most of these places I'm seeing are taking pot shots at SCG for dumping Legacy. These places are picking it up hardcore.

And FWIW since everyone knows, GP: Bologna put up almost 1600 people for Legacy. I mean, WOTC can suck on that - even though it doesn't matter.

[Mr. Safety]

Of course, you are realizing that the "true" nature of larger formats are not expensive realms of diversity, but rather is constrictive and, generally, homogenous.

Oh for sure, the bigger card pool of legacy doesn't really provide diversity. It condenses the metagame to the most successful/viable strategies. I was assuming that 'eternal' players don't generally like to be 'stifled' by a smaller card pool, even if the reduced card pool still results in the same amount of diversity (or even less!) I could be way off, but that's what I am like. Pioneer doesn't appeal to me, everything is a mad libs rather than a real deck. More powerful than standard? Yes, for sure. As interesting as Legacy, or even Modern? Nah, not to me. It makes me want to dive deeper into legacy actually, and say 'fuck all' to both Modern and Pioneer.


It was pretty easy to see this throwing of the baby out with the bathwater would happen to Modern. It just happened sooner than I, or most people, expected. It will happen with Pioneer, naturally.

It wasn't obvious to my peanut brain; I thought the format that would die off would be Legacy. Now I have to come to grips with the fact that Pioneer, in which I have no interest, might help save Legacy, which I love. Rather than graduating to Modern people might graduate to Legacy, hopefully with a good dose of community-driven good will that Legacy is known for.

[H]

Oh for sure, the bigger card pool of legacy doesn't really provide diversity. It condenses down, reducing the metagame to the most successful/viable strategies. I was assuming that 'eternal' players don't generally like to be 'stifled' by a smaller card pool, even if the larger card pool still results in the same amount of diversity (or even less!) I could be way off, but that's what I am like. Pioneer doesn't appeal to me, everything is a mad libs rather than a real deck. More powerful than standard? Yes, for sure. As interesting as Legacy, or even Modern? Nah, not to me. It makes me want to dive deeper into legacy actually, and say 'fuck all' to both Modern and Pioneer.

But I think you can see how that there are many, many people here who simply do not understand this. While larger card pools are constrictive, it is only to "some" degree or other. What does that mean? The key is that it isn't derivative of some "average" power level of the cards in the format, it is directly relational to the absolute, individual power level of particular cards. Then, to make it more complicated, the "viability" of those cards further related to the synergistic interplay of those cards and then further to the relational metagame considerations (i.e. exploitability, or "fragility" and so on).

Legacy is deep, but that depth is not "equal." There are minimal power level and synergistic "requirements" that will be forced on you, in a competitive field, by the consistent, synergistic nature of "known" archetypes. In the old days, you often had the "clear" litmus test of Goblins, notably, Goblin Lackey, where if you could not really beat that, you really had to question if you had a real (i.e. competitive) Legacy deck. Of course, in those days, people wailed too, gnashed teeth, even demanded the ban of Lackey. Just like they, in the past, demanded the ban of 'Goyf.

Legacy is diverse, in the sense of possibility, not competitive viability. The larger the pool, the more plausibly playable cards there are, but it is a case of severely diminishing returns. This is because Wizards does not (cannot and will not) simply print "superior" cards in every case. The vast majority of cards are simply not good. Which means the ones that are, show up that much more frequently. And will, more so, over time, because almost no one looks for inspiration on what to buy, build and play from the last place finishers, but rather the top X finishers. This isn't just self-referential either, there is, in the long-term, likely real advantage to those cards/strategies.

I don't, personally, go in for other formats, mostly because low-power formats aren't interesting to me. I don't want to play low-power duals when I could play higher power ones. I don't want to play dopey cantrips when I could play good ones. It just doesn't particularly interest me. Vintage and Legacy, with a side of EDH is all I really care about, if and when I can choose what to play.


It wasn't obvious to my peanut brain; I thought the format that would die off would be Legacy. Now I have to come to grips with the fact that Pioneer, in which I have no interest, might help save Legacy, which I love. Rather than graduating to Modern people might graduate to Legacy, hopefully with a good dose of community-driven good will that Legacy is known for.

I don't know that it will happen though. One, duals are expensive. Two, people, even if the cost isn't an actual barrier, just aren't as interested in Legacy as they claim they'd be otherwise. There is lots to learn and as we all know, particular cards/strategies are basal power-level setters in a way that tends to bother people. We really don't need people to come in and wail about how "Brainstorm is OP, plz ban" for the millionth time.

But, maybe it works out, who knows. In reality, people will likely cling to the thing they simply just like, no matter what, for "reasons." Modern won't be dead, it will just become more sparsely played.

[Wrath of Pie]

The OP and this thread in general are basically out of commission. I've been looking on social media and places elsewhere, and it looks like Legacy is turbo-charged with tournaments popping up everywhere I'm able to find.

And most of these places I'm seeing are taking pot shots at SCG for dumping Legacy. These places are picking it up hardcore.

The real question is whether or not that can be maintained.

[Michael Keller]

Legacy before SCGs picked it up was huge in the Northeast.

[Wrath of Pie]

Legacy before SCGs picked it up was huge in the Northeast.
That was without the existence of Modern and Pioneer, and pretty sure it was before Commander was relevant.

Granted, the players who like Legacy really like Legacy, but there is a reason that Legacy is better off not being a format with constant major events.