[SCD]Bazaar Trademage

[Mr. Safety]

http://www.mtgmintcard.com/images/mtg/singles/mh1/eng-reg/BAZAAR-TRADEMAGE.jpg

Is this card Legacy playable? I would think that there has to be a way to take advantage of a Bazaar of Baghdad effect tied to an aggressively costed creature as a 3/4 for 2U. It can be reanimated for cheap (Reanimate, Unearth) and even 3 mana isn't too much to ask in legacy. In particular it single-handedly allows free Hollow One's and is a creature spell to trigger Vengevines.

So the question is this: how to glue these cards together to make a fast, aggressive graveyard deck?

Vengevine
Hollow One
Bazaar Trademage


Would it ever be anything but a worse version of Hogaak?

[rufus]

It seems like it could fit into decks with Heartless Summoning or maybe Emry, Lurker of the Loch and Champion of Wits.

I think that the "fast aggressive graveyard deck" slot has got some very strong options with dredge and reanimator that are going to be hard to dislodge.

Honestly, it might not be a terrible option if you want to try faerie stompy.

It's true that 3 mana is possible in legacy, but it's a lot. Is Trademage going to make as much of a difference as something like Oko?

[H]

Honestly, it might not be a terrible option if you want to try faerie stompy.

It's true that 3 mana is possible in legacy, but it's a lot. Is Trademage going to make as much of a difference as something like Oko?

We actually had a local play a version of Sea Stompy a couple weeks ago, and despite not having a sideboard made, he didn't do that badly (4-2 in round robin play).

I feel like something tuned could likely be a decent tier 2 deck. I know he was playing the Trademage, but I don't think he had Hollow Ones.

[Fox]

I think it’s be pretty hard to find a niche for this deck when you directly compare it to the escape-Ox and LED, which has turn 0 capabilities. The card is too slow for Rootwalla, and once you’re going that slow you kinda need controlling elements to survive, which makes losing 2 total cards from hand (draw 2, discard 3 and -1 addition card being the 3/4 leaving hand) not the best plan.
The benefit of a slow-starting strategy should be increased hand size, and this card kinda ruins the one thing you had going for you. I don’t think you can even begin thinking about this card without ideas like Entomb target Vengeful Pharaoh since you’re so very dead to Goyf otherwise.

[FTW]

Could this work in an Ancient Tomb deck with controlling elements of Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst backed by some combination of creatures like:

Bazaar Trademage
Vengevine
Hollow One
Street Wraith
Champion of Wits
Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion
Ox of Agonas
Magus of the Wheel
Anje's Ravager
Rowdy Crew
Skaab Ruinator
Dack Fayden


With a critical mass of those draw/discard effects maybe you could cobble together an engine and make up for the card disadvantage and variance. Cards like Ox are even hardcastable in a Tomb deck.

[ESG]

I was considering trying it out post-board in Breach, but now we'll never know how that would've turned out.

I think the card could be playable in a Punishing Dack or Loam shell. Discarding fuels Escape, and Uro is very good.

[mistercakes]

I think the only way to make a deck with this guy that isn't strictly worse than hogaak is to approach the game on a slightly different axis.

I've tried to fit this into cloudvine builds, but I've struggled to make it work. It's possible I was too all in on this guy.

I think the key is to try and evaluate cards where this guy is a great mid and late game draw, and less about how to get an explosive turn 2.

[Mr. Safety]

First off, thanks for all the responses. I nabbed a playset of some interesting cards from MH when it was first released, hoping to find shells for them. Cabal Therapist and Bazaar Trademage were the most exciting for me.

I really like the approach from mistercakes, it's eminently practical: try to find a shell where playing Trademage t3 is still good, not relying on a fast graveyard boost. I am convinced other decks do fast graveyard shit better, so it has to be a mid-range/utility/toolbox kind of deck where the graveyard becomes a valuable resource but also doesn't roll over to a Leyline of the Void. I'm thinking it would be something that plays similarly to a Gurmag Angler/Snapcaster Mage approach.

I still want to include Hollow One, simply because it's a free interaction with a resolved Trademage. It would be the decks 'Tarmogoyf', so-to-speak. Having the ability to just cycle it away when dead is really, really nice.

Another card that I think could be very powerful is Unearth. I would need value-based creatures to make the card advantage count. Trademage itself can be targeted, as well as Snapcaster Mage. Eternal Witness seems decent, but the mana requirements are getting tight at this point.

So this is where I'm starting:

4x Bazaar Trademage
4x Hollow One
4x Unearth
4x Careful Study


So a UGb base shell. Maybe looking at Shardless BUG would give me some insight. Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix are both pretty spicy, with Agent being a lackluster Unearth target but Strix being amazing. Emry + Shardless Agent sounds fun. I'm curious what others thing would be the best 3-mana-or-less value creatures to include in these colors?

Short list:

Baleful Strix
Snapcaster Mage
Leovold
Eternal Witness
Fleshbag Marauder
Scavenging Ooze
Vendilion Clique
Phyrexian Revoker

[FTW]

I tried brewing with this on Cockatrice


//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Mountain

//Artifacts: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

//Creatures: 32
4 Street Wraith
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bazaar Trademage
4 Champion of Wits
4 Anje's Ravager
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
4 Ox of Agonas


It's still hot garbage but the general engine was consistent with redundant draw/discard creatures. Won some test games vs UR Delver on the back of resistors.

Whenever I wanted to cast Trademage, Champion of Wits was also decent so I just ran both. Both are great Hollow One enablers on turn 2 or turn 6. Anje's Ravager was also good. It's another draw/discard beater for 2C and later in the game you can madness it off Trademage/Champion, which counts as creature #2 for Vine. Vengevine was great, pretty easy to enable or just hardcast.

Street Wraith was a nonbo with Ancient Tomb, too much lifeloss. Rootwalla was mediocre, mainly value to sandbag for a draw/discard outlet or Vengevines. Ox was weak. I found it really hard to get 8 cards to escape it. Another escape value engine like Uro might be very good with Trademage. Or maybe Skaab Ruinator.

[Mr. Safety]

Cool list, it's definitely spicy. I think if I want to make sure Vengevine is a legitimate threat I need 1-drop creatures rather than leaning on Chalice. I also think 1-drop mana dorks, maybe 4 of them, could not only accelerate into a t2 Trademage but realistically hardcast Vengevine.

This is the hot garbage I was tinkering with so far:

4x Death’s Shadow
4x Elves of Deep Shadow
4x Bloodghast
4x Vengevine
4x Hollow One
4x Bazaar Trademage
4x Street Wraith
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Careful Study
2x Reanimate
2x Unearth

2x Utility Creature

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Watery Grave
1x Bayou
1x Breeding Pool
1x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Swamp


I'm not sold on the Bloodghast/Cabal Therapy interaction. It's just another synergy to go with Trademage/Careful Study/Coliseum. If I drop the Therapy/Bloodghast interaction I can focus more on utility creatures, giving me 8 whole slots. They would have to be pretty good, as the deck is light on interaction maindeck.

Death's Shadow was just a nod towards including Street Wraith, which led me to Reanimate, which led me to a 1-drop that helps me to trigger Vengevines. This is definitely more of a suicide agro deck, which is fine with me, but I don't have enough blue to sideboard Forces (yet!!!) I know at a fundamental level Reanimator and dredge are both more powerful graveyard decks; this one is an attempt to going wider without being totally boned to hard hate (Leyline, RiP.)

EDIT: Skaab Ruinator seems kind of cool, and the mana cost is reasonable with Elves.

[FTW]

Cool list, it's definitely spicy. I think if I want to make sure Vengevine is a legitimate threat I need 1-drop creatures rather than leaning on Chalice.

In my test games (mirror match, Delver) Vengevine was pretty easy to pull off. Delver wrecked me in the games I didn't stick Chalice or Thorn, those cards did a lot of work to buy time to durdle.

Loot creature (Trademage, Champion, Ox) + madness creature (Hollow One, Rootwalla, Anje) = Vengevines. And you can discard the Vengevines to the Looter. That works even late in the game because so many of them draw you more cards.

Sol Lands also enable T2 Trademage or T3 hardcast Vengevine.

Possible sequences:
T1 - Resistor
T2 - Trademage/Champion -> draw cards, discard Vengevine -> Hollow One/Rootwalla -> haste Vengevine


If you want to run more 1 drops and mana dorks, I strongly recommend some other kind of disruption on top of Therapy. Thoughtseize is a natural fit.

Prized Amalgam might be good in BUG colors next to Bloodghasts and other recursion. Uro seems really good too.

[Mr. Safety]

In my test games (mirror match, Delver) Vengevine was pretty easy to pull off. Delver wrecked me in the games I didn't stick Chalice or Thorn, those cards did a lot of work to buy time to durdle.

Loot creature (Trademage, Champion, Ox) + madness creature (Hollow One, Rootwalla, Anje) = Vengevines. And you can discard the Vengevines to the Looter.

Sol Lands also enable T2 Trademage or T3 hardcast Vengevine.

Possible sequences:
T1 - Resistor
T2 - Trademage/Champion -> draw cards, discard Vengevine -> Hollow One/Rootwalla -> haste Vengevine


If you want to run more 1 drops and mana dorks, I strongly recommend some other kind of disruption on top of Therapy. Thoughtseize is a natural fit.

Prized Amalgam might be good in BUG colors next to Bloodghasts and other recursion. Uro seems really good too.

Good thoughts, Thoughtseize is definitely on my mind. I think it's fine to count on Chalice/Thorn to disrupt but I didn't want to have to rely on naturally drawing a discard + madness creature to enable the Vengevines. I wanted a way to smooth out the draws and dig for needed cards, so that means Careful Study. I also wanted a way to play a couple 1-drops to trigger Vines if I get stalled, so that's where Death's Shadow and Elves came from. Still hot garbage, and I don't even have Brainstorm in there yet...

I do like the Ancient Tomb idea, it goes right in line with Shadow. I could definitely play 1-2 as mana booster 5+6.

[FTW]

In your BUG version, 4x Stitcher's Supplier seems good.


Here's where I'm at with a Chalice-less mana dork plan, using a MOST shell.
MOST has a lot of things you're talking about... 1cc dorks, discard outlets for Vengevine, creature tutors for consistency, value creatures. Uro is also great value for filling the graveyard. Oko because it feels wrong to play Tropical Island without Oko.


//Creatures: 25
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Gilded Goose
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Bazaar Trademage
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Vengevine

//Planeswalkers: 3
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns

//Spells: 12
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith

//Lands: 20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Windswepth Heath
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Karakas

//Sideboard: 15
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Skaab Ruinator
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Gilded Drake
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Questing Beast

[the Thin White Duke]

Nice to see some attention for the Trademage. This has been a pet card of mine since it came out, but I had given up. The MOST list looks interesting since it's running Uro.
Keep up the good work everyone.

[Mr. Safety]

Very cool ideas! I definitely want Stitchers Supplier in here, for the Therapy synergy alone. It also eliminates the need for any green mana, so it can stay UB. I tried Basking Rootwalla, oof, just a disappointment.

Here is the rough list for now:

4x Sticher's Supplier
4x Death's Shadow
4x Bloodghast
4x Bazaar Trademage
4x Vengevine
4x Hollow One
4x Street Wraith
2x Gurmag Angler

3x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
4x Careful Study
2x Reanimate

4x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Watery Grave
1x Bayou
1x Swamp
2x Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard
2x brazen borrower
2x plague engineer
2x abrupt decay
4x force of will
2x stubborn denial
2x surgical extraction
1x oko, thief of crowns

[Fox]

I think you are using Trademage like an overcosted Hogaak in that list? There is this aspect of avoiding yard hate by playing Trademage and Shadow, but I think the end result is a slower Gaak deck without a combo kill.

It's really hard to get past the spending 3 mana [assuming you can get to this point] to self-nuke your hand with a draw 2, discard 4 (discarding the 3/4 to the board). You have to enter a main phase with 3 cards just to keep 1 card after casting Trademage and having it trigger; after this point you're hellbent topdecking? The Rootwalla and Hollow One parts seem fine, and you can up the count with Asylum Visitor. The whole Vengevine thing probably doesn't work without a totally free creature (Hogaak), and if 8x slots are Hollow and Trademage you'll have trouble doing the Hogaak channeling as well. Three mana is a sizable investment when you're trying to get to two creature casts a turn if you didn't find a Rootwalla or go in with a 3-card hand and find the Hollow One.

I think you have to compare the Trademage directly to Looting or Collective Brutality. In most of these list so far, this 3/4 is hanging out at the top of the curve and not really delivering something novel that brings everything before it together. It'll get you hellbent, which has some text with Visitor or a card like Lupine Prototype, but otherwise I'm not really seeing the payoff.

[FTW]

I think you have to compare the Trademage directly to Looting or Collective Brutality. In most of these list so far, this 3/4 is hanging out at the top of the curve and not really delivering something novel that brings everything before it together. It'll get you hellbent, which has some text with Visitor or a card like Lupine Prototype, but otherwise I'm not really seeing the payoff.

In the MOST list I posted, the main role is pitching Uro and enough cards to escape it, or pitching Vengevines. It's high variance in that deck, so it's also there to pitch to Fauna Shaman or FoW or hide with Brainstorm (many ways to get rid of it).

In the Sol Land list I posted higher, it's at the bottom of the curve as a redundant turn 2 enabler. Champion of Wits was honestly quite good in testing. On average you're discarding at least 1 card you want to discard, so it's pseudo-card advantage, and it doesn't nuke your hand. If you have any other card in hand, you get to keep at least 1. The main advantages of Bazaar over Champion were the 3/4 flying body and enabling Hollow One for free without Street Wraith.

Redundant card draw also helped offset the drawback of pitching your hand. Anje's Ravager is very strong when you're Hellbent. "T: Ancestral Recall". Not only does it do that, but it can be cast via Madness or use the discard to enable other tricks. Ox of Agonas is also strong Hellbent.

What does it do over Hogaak? The big thing is you're not wrecked by GY hate, because the engine is looting instead of milling. Most of the beaters are hardcastable. The graveyard is just extra value. The other thing is the ability to play disruption and plan Bs instead of going all-in on combo. It's grindier.

I also tested a version with Hogaak, but that requires more green/black cards.

Hogaak Stompy


//Artifacts: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

//Creatures: 32
4 Street Wraith
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bloodghast
4 Champion of Wits
4 Bazaar Trademage
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis


Street Wraith was pretty weak, arguably could be replaced by Asylum Visitor to have another black body and draw engine. I think I had Prized Amalgams in there too somewhere. This one felt like just a worse version of Gaak, because it has less ability to ignore the graveyard, so I switched to the RUG build with more card draw.

[FTW]

I tested the RUG one some more. The redundant card draw opens a lot of lines.


//Lands: 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

//Artifacts: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

//Creatures: 30
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bazaar Trademage
4 Champion of Wits
4 Anje's Ravager
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
2 Ox of Agonas


It's not as explosive and fast as Hogaak, but it's grindier with disruption and draw.

Tested 6 games preboard vs RUG Delver and went 4-2. The grind potential is real. One game I Eternalized 2 Champions. Vengevine also wrecks Oko.
It has some major weaknesses, but it looks possibly playable.


Some Goldfish Hands

T1 Tomb. Chalice @ 1
T2 Volc. Bazaar draw 2, discard Rootwalla + 2 lands. Hollow One
T3 Fetch. Ravager. Attack 3/4 flying + 4/4.
T4 City. Bazaar draw 2, Madness Ravager + discard last card.
Attack with Ravager #1 + Hollow One + Bazaar
Draw 3 (2 lands, Ox)

More card draw available after via Ravager #2 and Ox

-------------------

T1 Tomb. Chalice @ 1
T2 Fetch Volc. Ravager.
T3 City. Hollow One. Attack with Ravager (discard 3 lands + Vengevine), draw 3 (Uro, Rootwalla, Champion)
T4 Tropical. Champion draw 2, discard Uro + Madness Rootwalla (countered). Vengevine returns.
Attack with Ravager + Vine + Hollow One
Discard land + Uro, draw 3 (Ox, Thorn, fetch)
Cast Thorn of Amethyst

More card draw available via Ravager & hardcast Ox. Eventually escaped Uro or Eternalized Champion.

---------------

T1 City. Thorn
T2 Volc. Bazaar draw 2, discard Vengevine + Bazaar + Champion. 2x Hollow One. Vengevine returns.
Attack with Vine
T3 Fetch Trop. Attack with Vine + 2 Hollow One + Bazaar

This one ran out of draw but had an explosive turn 2 board.

---------------

T1 Tomb
T2 Volc. Bazaar draw 2, discard Vengevine + Uro + Uro. Hollow One.
Vine returns. Attack with Vine
T3 Trop. Ravager. Attack with Bazaar, Hollow One, Vine.
T4 Attack with Bazaar, Hollow One, Vine, Ravager
Discard 3 (Champion, Ox, Madness Ravager), Draw 3 (Hollow One, City, Thorn)
City. Hollow One. Thorn.

More draw available via 2 Ravagers. 1 more mana to Eternalize Champion or Escape Ox/Uro soon.

-------

T1 Fetch. Chalice @ 0
T2 Fetch. Thorn
T3 Fetch. Bazaar draw 2, discard Rootwalla + Rootwalla + Uro.
T4 Champion draw 2, discard Vine + Uro
Attack with Bazaar
T5 Champion draw 2, discard land + Ravager. Fetch. Hollow One. Return Vine.

From there I'm set to escape Uro or cast a 2nd Ravager from hand

[Mr. Safety]

I think you are using Trademage like an overcosted Hogaak in that list? There is this aspect of avoiding yard hate by playing Trademage and Shadow, but I think the end result is a slower Gaak deck without a combo kill.

It's really hard to get past the spending 3 mana [assuming you can get to this point] to self-nuke your hand with a draw 2, discard 4 (discarding the 3/4 to the board). You have to enter a main phase with 3 cards just to keep 1 card after casting Trademage and having it trigger; after this point you're hellbent topdecking? The Rootwalla and Hollow One parts seem fine, and you can up the count with Asylum Visitor. The whole Vengevine thing probably doesn't work without a totally free creature (Hogaak), and if 8x slots are Hollow and Trademage you'll have trouble doing the Hogaak channeling as well. Three mana is a sizable investment when you're trying to get to two creature casts a turn if you didn't find a Rootwalla or go in with a 3-card hand and find the Hollow One.

I think you have to compare the Trademage directly to Looting or Collective Brutality. In most of these list so far, this 3/4 is hanging out at the top of the curve and not really delivering something novel that brings everything before it together. It'll get you hellbent, which has some text with Visitor or a card like Lupine Prototype, but otherwise I'm not really seeing the payoff.

Good thoughts. In my limited goldfish testing against some tier decks (Grixis Delver, D&T, Sneak/Show) the issue has been getting to 3 mana to play Trademage. That means I need 1) mana acceleration or 2) a different way to get it on-board, like Reanimate. Careful Study is an incredibly important card for the deck, making or breaking early turns. I might need to just bite the bullet and play red for Faithless Looting.

Some of the best games have been with just Bloodghast giving value with Therapy. Even 1 decent threat (Vine/Hollow/Gurmag) backed up by some Therapy plays has been very good.

So in reality, I'm really trying to merge some sort of Vengevine/Hollow One agro strategy to Death's Shadow synergies. I think it's possible, but there needs to be another 1-mana enabler like Careful Study. Hapless Researcher might be the correct path, or maybe just jamming a set of Lotus Petals for acceleration. Petals and Researcher both feed Gurmags, which has been a great card. I think I could even go up to 3 Gurmags. Thought Scour has some potential, but it will be a lot less reliable when it's 'discarding' from the top of the deck rather than goodies in hand.

[Mr. Safety]

So I've committed to splashing red for Faithless Looting, here is my tentative plan for Thursday night legacy:

Threats - 22
4x Death’s Shadow
4x Bloodghast
4x Vengevine
4x Hollow One
4x Bazaar Trademage
2x Gurmag Angler

Draw/Discard Engine - 11
4x Street Wraith
4x Careful Study
3x Faithless Looting

Disruption - 6
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize

Acceleration/Utility -6
4x Lotus Petal
2x Reanimate

Lands - 15
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Watery Grave
1x Blood Crypt
2x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Swamp

Sideboard
2x Brazen Borrower
2x Plague Engineer
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Tormod’s Crypt
4x Chancellor of the Annex
2x Abrade
2x Stubborn Denial


The plan is to convert post-board into less graveyard dependency, cutting the Vengevines for Borrower/Engineer depending on hate. If I face against Moon stompy or a combo deck I'll side into Chancellors/Borrowers. It will give me more early interaction with the option to loot away, and maybe even reanimate early to feed Shadow and stall even further. Five power flyers aren't anything to sneeze at, either.

EDIT: I just noticed that Cephalid Colisseum can target any player, so that is one way to interact with Terminus if I should sniff it coming.

[rufus]

So I've committed to splashing red for Faithless Looting, here is my tentative plan for Thursday night legacy...

There are some interesting options like Ox of Agonas and Seasoned Pyromancer in red.

[Mr. Safety]

There are some interesting options like Ox of Agonas and Seasoned Pyromancer in red.

Ox is really cool, especially since it counts as a 'cast' trigger for Vengevines. Double red is a little rough, but maybe there is a RUG version that could really abuse it:

4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Hollow One
4x Vengevine
4x Bazaar Trademage
4x Ox of Agonas

And go from there.

[mistercakes]

I'd highly consider running intuition for vengevine in these builds.

[FTW]

4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Hollow One
4x Vengevine
4x Bazaar Trademage
4x Ox of Agonas


I tested out that shell. There's some cool stuff going on there, depending on what other creatures you add, like some mix of
Prized Amalgam
Bloodghast
Stitcher's Supplier
Insolent Neonate
Basking Rootwalla

But that pile just feels smoother going -4 Trademage.

What does Trademage add to the strategy that Dredge and Hogaak can't do better? 3 mana is hard without ramp.

The other thing is that, now that Breach is banned, Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize just got worse. The meta will be dominated by Veil of Summer decks instead of Silence decks.

[Mr. Safety]

I tested out that shell. There's some cool stuff going on there, depending on what other creatures you add, like some mix of
Prized Amalgam
Bloodghast
Stitcher's Supplier
Insolent Neonate
Basking Rootwalla

But that pile just feels smoother going -4 Trademage.

What does Trademage add to the strategy that Dredge and Hogaak can't do better? 3 mana is hard without ramp.

The other thing is that, now that Breach is banned, Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize just got worse. The meta will be dominated by Veil of Summer decks instead of Silence decks.

Sure, I can agree that Veil makes the disruption worse, but the aggressive plan still seems good.

I think Trademage has to be part of the turn-dudes-sideways plan, it only works because it's still a 3/4 flyer that can win Delver battles, block Marit Lage, and attack for 3. The plan, at least for me, was always to have a graveyard strategy that can go wide but also doesn't auto-lose to hate.

I'm rethinking Looting because I need more cheap dudes to trigger Vines. Putrid Imp seems just right, and allows for explosive early turns. It's also a free discard outlet for sideboard chancellor's and can discard Trademage to be reanimated, which can supercharge early turns.

EDIT: The conundrum from the beginning is whether this is viable or whether it's just 'bad hogaak'. I guess it isn't susceptible to Karakas, so that's something right? Lol...

[FTW]

EDIT: The conundrum from the beginning is whether this is viable or whether it's just 'bad hogaak'. I guess it isn't susceptible to Karakas, so that's something right? Lol...

That was the point of my comment. When I tested a build closer to yours with fast dudes and graveyard recursion, when it did well it did well because of the Hogaak stuff, not because of Trademage. Trademage felt really clunky at 3cc in a deck with few mana sources. You can loot for 1 mana and already discard most of what you want to discard. That begs the question... is it just bad Hogaak?

In the ramp builds, at least there was a reason to play a 3cc looter. Chalice/Thorn pushes you away from spells, and ramp makes the cost much easier. Turn 3 is too late to play an Engine card in Legacy, especially in an aggressive deck.

[Mr. Safety]

So the fast aggro plan is, admittedly, worse than Hogaak. That leaves an alternative plan where 1) being 3 mana is a bonus rather than setback, like with a stompy setup with Chalice, or 2) a value engine that takes full advantage of the graveyard in a mid-range shell.

[mistercakes]

it's clunky, but this is probably where i'd start:


// 60 Maindeck
// 28 Creature
4 Bazaar Trademage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Vengevine
4 Cloud of Faeries
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Hollow One
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Shardless Agent

// 8 Instant
4 Intuition
4 Force of Will

// 18 Land
3 Gaea's Cradle
3 Tropical Island
2 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

// 2 Planeswalker
2 Oko, Thief of Crowns

// 4 Sorcery
4 Green Sun's Zenith

[ESG]

I think Trademage is a serviceable creature, but I think Hollow One is a trap unless you have some reliable way to slam down two or three copies of it early. A 4/4 with no on-the-battlefield abilities is outclassed by almost everything, and the times when you don't have an enabler, it's just dead. Cycling means very little, since if you're using your mana to cycle, you probably aren't doing anything else.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Trademage is a serviceable creature, but I think Hollow One is a trap unless you have some reliable way to slam down two or three copies of it early. A 4/4 with no on-the-battlefield abilities is outclassed by almost everything, and the times when you don't have an enabler, it's just dead. Cycling means very little, since if you're using your mana to cycle, you probably aren't doing anything else.

I agree, which is why it needs support that also feeds into something else. I seems akin to Myr Enforcer, incredible when free while doing other stuff but boring by itself. Turn 1 4/4 is definitely above rate, but that's only on t1. Two of them t1 is approaching legacy power level. This is why it's so important to have Street Wraith/Careful Study to feed it. There might be a critical mass of synergism to be made, but so far it's not reliably consistent.

One thing this strategy definitely has over something like dredge is that it mulligans much better. The Shadow plan is legit with Gurmag/hollow/vines, mostly because you want Wraith for both strategies and fetch/shock is fine to fix mana if shadow is in the mix. Its Shadow synergies overlapping with Hollow One and Vengevine. Shadow is my deck's Carrion Feeder.

[mistercakes]

it might make sense to run wonder as hollow one is significantly better as a 4/4 flyer. i think tarmogoyf is actually really good with a card that fills the graveyard as well, and it's not off-color if running vengevine too.

[FTW]

When I was testing against Delver, Tarmogoyf was a real problem. I kept making it big. They could even Mandrills away their whole GY and let me do the Goyf work for them. Goyf seems good on our side.

Hollow One is significantly better if you have multiple multi-card discard outlets, not just the Bazaar, and it's better if you can enable it early (T1 Study or T2 Bazaar). With just Bazaar itself on turn 3, the 4/4 is too slow and you barely have enough cards to sandbag it anyway. Other discard outlets are good.

One advantage of Hollow One: vanilla 4/4 is really good against Oko. 4-power hurts the Oko math, it eats Elks, and it feels bad to Elk a vanilla 4/4 just to -1/-1 it.

Lotleth Troll might be decent in BUG.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think Bazaar Trademage can work in a 'fair'-ish agro deck. It might be ok in a toolbox deck (some spicy lists in here), could be great as a way to speed up the clock in a Stompy shell (Trademage/Hollow One/Vengvine with Chalice), but just as a 3/4 flyer that sometimes enables other threats seems to unreliable. Initial testing has been fairly poor.

So the next question is this: would it be a good addition to a blue-based mana-less dredge deck? Manaless would have 3-4 Dread Returns, Trademage enables some mad dredging opportunities, and it's another blue card to more comfortably cast Force of Will/Negation to combat opposing combo decks or hate pieces. It would be a creature-based, but somewhat weaker, version of Breakthrough. Given how important attacking is with Manaless dredge it could be ok.

EDIT: Whirlpool Rider is much better in mana-less dredge, so that avenue is out as well.

[DarkConfidant]

Played a UG version of this deck using Bazaar Trademage and Intuition to dump a bunch of Vengevines into the graveyard and put cheap Hollow Ones into play. The deck is fun and I ended up going 3-5 with it over two weeks at the LGS. It is capable of quite explosive starts and can easily put 11 power on the board on turn two with at least four power being haste. I found 4 Noble Hierarch plus one/two Birds of Paradise (though maybe Gilded Goose now?) was essential as it powered out a turn two Intuition or Bazaar Trademage which are the best engines in the deck. It also makes an attacking Trademage four power in the air which is difficult to deal with and makes a turn two Vengevine swing for five.

I ended up going closer to a Madness build and included several copies of Deep Analysis in the maindeck as a means to refill after resolving a Trademage or sometimes to reload with Intuition into Deep Analysis. I also added Noose Constrictor as an additional discard outlet as it allowed me to both "go-off" with Vengevine on turn two without a mana dork on turn one and the Reach ability is rather potent as a means to block Delver of Secrets. Ice-Fang Coatl was a big addition as it is removal, replaces itself, and is a creature to trigger Vengevine (at instant speed if you have two). I went back and forth on Careful Study - it enables some insane draws, but I only felt good resolving it if I hit a Deep Analysis or Vengevine - otherwise, it felt underwhelming. Brazen Borrow was not released when I tried the deck, but seems like an excellent maindeck inclusion. It may well be terrible, but I planned to test Skaab Ruinator before I moved to a different deck.

A few other notes:

Played a few copies of Groundseal in the sideboard as a means to hedge against Surgical Extraction. It also useful against Reanimator, Dredge (limited), and decks with Dreadhorde Arcanist, Snapcaster Mage, and Mystic Sanctuary.
I went back and forth on Force of Will. Tried a version with only Daze and Spell Pierce - it wasn't terrible. I didn't own Wasteland at the time, but would probably include it if I had it as an option.
Its a bit dated, but quite powerful against any permanent based graveyard hate, but I kept 2-3 copies of Krosan Grip in the board. Might try Force of Vigor now.
Submerge was an MVP out of the board in this deck - with more Green creatures being played now, its probably only gotten better over time.
Veil seems like a good inclusion as the combo match-up always felt bad.
I would probably play 4 Brainstorm and some number of Ponder in this deck over Careful Study.
Wonder in the maindeck is great and a good way to cheat wins out of nowhere.
Thought about Fauna Shaman but its too slow unless you warp the build to put it out on turn one but that seems terrible. You also have to play a lot of support cards to allow for more than one activation in a turn which is both clunky and less powerful than other options.
I only tried Cloudvine once and had good success with the deck going 3-1. However, I would opt to play BUG or Bant Opposition over Cloudvine. My takeaway was Cloudvine was either trying to put a bunch of Vengevines into the yard with Intuition or resolve a Craterhoof Behemoth off of Gaea's Cradle, but didn't necessarily do either of those well; Opposition is a natural fit for a deck looking for something to do with a lot of creatures other than Craterhoof for very few slots whereas the Vengevine package was 7 to 8 slots. I even tried an OppoVine deck because why not and it was okay but again suffered from having poor support for two non-complementary plans to victory.

[FTW]

So the next question is this: would it be a good addition to a blue-based mana-less dredge deck? Manaless would have 3-4 Dread Returns, Trademage

Dredge has had better options for over a decade

Cephalid Sage
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Griselbrand (yes, the Grizzly guy "strictly better"s even in Dredge. If you are ever cheating a creature into play in Legacy, it needs a very very good reason to be anything other than Griselbrand)

The only thing Trademage has going for it is costing 2U while some of the better draw engines cost more mana. If you cheat the cost, it defeats the purpose.

The Noble Hierarch/Intuition version seems interesting.

[mistercakes]

Can you share the cloudvine list? What were your matchups?

[the Thin White Duke]

Trademage is still a pet card of mine.
I came up with something a little different. It's more of a mish-mash of stuff in a stompy-like shell. Guaranteed to melt in your hand and leave a unique taste if it makes it to your mouth. The only thing Trademage is teaching me is that Legacy needs the proper Bazaar in the format. That would shake things up!

2 Hapless Researcher
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bazaar Trademage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Once Upon a Time
4 Careful Study
4 Echo of Eons
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Waterlogged Grove
11 Island

[Pittplayer]

Trademage is still a pet card of mine.
I came up with something a little different. It's more of a mish-mash of stuff in a stompy-like shell. Guaranteed to melt in your hand and leave a unique taste if it makes it to your mouth. The only thing Trademage is teaching me is that Legacy needs the proper Bazaar in the format. That would shake things up!

2 Hapless Researcher
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bazaar Trademage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Once Upon a Time
4 Careful Study
4 Echo of Eons
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Waterlogged Grove
11 Island



Adding some hullbreacher would be some serious spice!

[Mr. Safety]

Trademage is still a pet card of mine.
I came up with something a little different. It's more of a mish-mash of stuff in a stompy-like shell. Guaranteed to melt in your hand and leave a unique taste if it makes it to your mouth. The only thing Trademage is teaching me is that Legacy needs the proper Bazaar in the format. That would shake things up!

2 Hapless Researcher
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bazaar Trademage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One
2 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
3 Once Upon a Time
4 Careful Study
4 Echo of Eons
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Waterlogged Grove
11 Island



I don't understand the 1-drops that fight with Chalice; I can see an argument for Careful Study because it's so good at what it does, but Researcher and Rootwalla are terrible if you have a t1 chalice (which is your ideal start, right?) I was thinking about a couple cards that could really take that anti-synergy out and possibly still give you some consistency. I think playing a full set of Once Upon a Time is probably correct given Chalice, and I don't see why you wouldn't want another form of (colored) mana acceleration. I think if you include LED you're better off just going for a different deck, but Lotus Petal seems good here. Sphinx of Foresight seems like a natural fit in the deck for 'free' card quality but doesn't support the Vengevine/Hogaak plan. One card that I think would work really good in this type of setup, except for the absurdly difficult manacost, is Burning-Tree Emissary. It's essentially free, it's green to play Hogaak, and it's a creature spell that triggers Vengevines easily. Lotus Petal or Manamorphose would enable it, but now you're adding pure air to the deck with the one small upside of feeding Hogaak. I'm not sure if you could cut down to less than 8 Sol-lands, but that could be a way to squeeze in the Lotus Petals. EDIT: Cloud of Faeries does the same for Vengevine by being 'free' but doesn't feed Hogaak's colored requirement.

One thing I have learned from messing around with Hollow/Vine decks is that you always need to be doing a high number of small actions on your turns, even if it's just cycling Street Wraiths or playing multiple Careful Studies. The tools you have available are objectively worse than others in the format (Brainstorm, Ponder) so you need a higher volume of those things to stay level with the field. Free effects like Once Upon a Time aren't as good as Brainstorm on their own, but if you chain a Sphinx of Firesight into a Once Upon a Time into a t1 Lotus Petal/Ancient Tomb/Trademage and a Hollow One, with Force of Will backup, that would be pretty awesome. One thing that Hanni did really well with his 5-color Hollow/Vine deck was maximizing 'free' effects to feed those synergies. I think your goal should be a t1 Trademage or Chalice with Force backup.

Last thought: I'm not sure what Echo of Aeons is doing for you in this deck. I can see it's a high-value card in the graveyard but it doesn't really feed graveyard synergies.

[the Thin White Duke]

Thanks for the feedback Mr. Safety.
The Sphinx is a great idea and I'm not sure if Chalice is really what I want in here. I also agree with you on the Echo of Aeons. I jammed it in there because it's a cool card, but if I really need to play it it can be a one-of.
I'm trying to keep it more on the casual side (another reason why I'm not sure I really want Chalice) and left out counter magic and duals.
I also like the Burning-tree Emissary idea. I originally though 3 color to get Anje's Ravager on the table. Maybe I'll play with a red splash.