iKoria Spoilers: Godzilla is a creature type now

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The day is here! The day we learn how Maro has killed magic this time. Will it be just be mechanics ported from silver sets? Will it be with power overwhelming? Find out today with iKoria Spoilers!

Quick facts:
Mutate is Bestow, but worse.
Godzilla and pals are in the set as altered-arts for those of you who'd rather cast Godzilla instead of A Big Creature Named Zzzydothxy
Ability counters work like you think they would.
Cycling is back, baby!
Companion is commander for non-edh play. You get a companion, and you can cast them once from the command zone, but they come with deck building restrictions.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/where-find-ikoria-and-c20-previews-2020-03-31
Schedule

[H]

Love this absolute nonsense countdown right now. Seriously.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The godzilla card is real? Gotta be some silver border thing.

[H]

The godzilla card is real? Gotta be some silver border thing.

Didn't look like it.

Also:
https://i.imgur.com/gWAj9k8.png
https://i.imgur.com/x2QYtl2.png
https://i.imgur.com/6Gw4WcM.png

[H]

Mutate:
https://i.imgur.com/52nH3zw.png

Also missed capturing it, but the Godzilla things seem to just be other cards by different names?

[itslarryyo]

My inner child absolutley loves all of this.
100% will be building at least 1 theme deck.

[H]

Yep, Godzilla stuff is just creatures with "different names" but still the same name for deck-build purposes:
https://i.imgur.com/i2oj5OF.png

[H]

Showing the ability counters and Godzilla theme:
https://i.imgur.com/4unA5KE.png?1

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So I think nightmares are a tribe in this set. I saw the Nightmare Pangolin (a 1/4 draft fodder)

[H]

Another companion card:
https://i.imgur.com/wSSEKKt.png?1

[H]

Probably irrelevant but more creatures with Cycling now:
https://i.imgur.com/3MhV37r.png

But there are Godzilla versions of uncommons too, apparently:
https://i.imgur.com/QR0Pg6e.png

[morgan_coke]

Sort of like Lightning Rift, but kind of worse and kind of better (ok, strictly worse, but at least they appear to be remotely trying)
https://media.wizards.com/2020/iko/en_pRbcJ7BDPK.png

[Ace/Homebrew]

Any rules aficionados want to speculate on how Companion and Mutate work?

Mutate looks like you start with any non-human creature, then add mutate cards too it. I'm guessing the P/T on the underlaying cards are ignored and the creature has it's base states and abilities plus all the abilities on the cards shown under it?

Companion is completely beyond me though... Do you reveal your entire deck before the start of the game to prove the Companion condition is true?

Edit - As of right now, hybrid mana symbols only appear in the casting cost of Companions and the mutate cost of some creatures. I wonder if that will remain true.

[H]

Any rules aficionados want to speculate on how Companion and Mutate work?

Mutate looks like you start with any non-human creature, then add mutate cards too it. I'm guessing the P/T on the underlaying cards are ignored and the creature has it's base states and abilities plus all the abilities on the cards shown under it?

Companion is completely beyond me though... Do you reveal your entire deck before the start of the game to prove the Companion condition is true?

Edit - As of right now, hybrid mana symbols only appear in the casting cost of Companions and the mutate cost of some creatures. I wonder if that will remain true.

Mechanics Article (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ikoria-lair-behemoths-mechanics-2020-04-02) goes over Mutate pretty well, but you have the basics right. As for Companion, Matt Tabak is doing a Reddit AMA thing tomorrow that will probably answer that.

[H]

This actually doesn't look like too terrible a card:
https://i.imgur.com/NIns6y5.jpg

Neat, but 6 mana is too much I think:
https://i.imgur.com/qtPx3vq.jpg

[Barook]

Not terrible impressed with the art direction or flavor right now. Elemental Dinosaur Cat? That shit looks like an Elder Dragon from Monster Hunter.

Mechanics are kinda meh. Not surprised they're cashing in on the popularity of Commander. Let's see if any of the cards don't have enough restrictions to be actually playable.

As for the power level, let's wait and see what kind of bullshit WotC has pushed this time as a set seller, just to be banned a few months later.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Mechanics Article (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ikoria-lair-behemoths-mechanics-2020-04-02) goes over Mutate pretty well, but you have the basics right. As for Companion, Matt Tabak is doing a Reddit AMA thing tomorrow that will probably answer that.
Tanks. Mutate seems overly complicated and they jumped through a bunch of hoops to keep it from having the 'Enchant Creature' problems... I'm sure it'll be fine.

Companion's Commander rules annoy me. No one should ever sit down with more than 100 total cards. Partner commanders mean a deck size of 98... Why does Companion get a pass? /bitching

[H]

Not terrible impressed with the art direction or flavor right now. Elemental Dinosaur Cat? That shit looks like an Elder Dragon from Monster Hunter.

Mechanics are kinda meh. Not surprised they're cashing in on the popularity of Commander. Let's see if any of the cards don't have enough restrictions to be actually playable.

As for the power level, let's wait and see what kind of bullshit WotC has pushed this time as a set seller, just to be banned a few months later.

I pretty much agree on all counts there. I do think Mutate is kind of interesting, since it is like Bestow, but minus the blow-out potential. I actually think this set might usher in another low-power phase, but we, of course, will have to wait and see.

Frankly, Vadrok seems almost close to playable, so who knows...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Any rules aficionados want to speculate on how Companion and Mutate work?

Mutate looks like you start with any non-human creature, then add mutate cards too it. I'm guessing the P/T on the underlaying cards are ignored and the creature has it's base states and abilities plus all the abilities on the cards shown under it?

Companion is completely beyond me though... Do you reveal your entire deck before the start of the game to prove the Companion condition is true?

Edit - As of right now, hybrid mana symbols only appear in the casting cost of Companions and the mutate cost of some creatures. I wonder if that will remain true.

You have mutate essentially correct.


Think of companion but for standard: Before each game (So g1, 2 and 3) you decide if you want to reveal a (singular) companion. The companion lives in your SB (the only "outside the game" that's legal in constructed play. Casual is your binder) and you can cast it from there using otherwise normal rules. It's now te 61st card in your deck.
Now; between games you can sideboard your deck in such a way as to make the companion illegal. If you do you just don't reveal it before that game.
I assume this also means if you wanted to switch companions between games you could.

[morgan_coke]

From what we've seen of Companion so far, I'm guessing they're all competitively unplayable and intended solely for kitchen table players. Which I'm 100% fine with. The last thing MTG needs to repeat the Genn/Baku debacle from Hearthstone.

Mutate looks like the sets draft mechanic that is going to have a max of two-five cards playable in standard, if that.

[H]

Some more:
https://i.imgur.com/euABGDP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yApkLOt.png

[Barook]

This actually doesn't look like too terrible a card:
https://i.imgur.com/NIns6y5.jpg
This should be able to cast Ancestral Vision and the other 0 mana Suspend cards, if I'm not mistaken.

[Kage]

I've read the mutate rules article three times and I still don't get it. Seems like an overly complicated shit just to appease kitchen table kids who are most likely just as happy with simple 12/12 trample dinosaurs anyway.

[Barook]

I've read the mutate rules article three times and I still don't get it. Seems like an overly complicated shit just to appease kitchen table kids who are most likely just as happy with simple 12/12 trample dinosaurs anyway.
Agreed. This mechanic is a complete clusterfuck.

I had to read up Matt Tabak's Twitter to learn that if you blink a mutated creature, they come back as seperate creatures.

Edit: Since you can mutate creatures with extra copies of themselves, does Vadrox bring back two cards if you mutate it with itself? :really:

Well, this one looks good:
http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/dorattheperfectpet.jpg

[PirateKing]

Well, this one looks good:

I agree, UR Delver is an underpowered deck

[Barook]

I wonder if we get any Mutate creature that put counters onto itself upon dealing damage for a cheaper 2-card combo with Ballista than Heliod is.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Edit: Since you can mutate creatures with extra copies of themselves, does Vadrox bring back two cards if you mutate it with itself? :really:

Yup. You'll end up with a creature that has two identically worded triggered abilities and each one will trigger seperately.


Well, this one looks good:
http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/dorattheperfectpet.jpg
I dunno if Modern phoenix wants it but the Pioneer version of the deck is deperate for oomf and this provides a lot of that.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Showing the ability counters and Godzilla theme:
https://i.imgur.com/4unA5KE.png?1

This one turns any undying/persist creature unkillable, making it very playable in modern. Probably not in legacy, you'll have to ask the DnT players if they want a Wrath Freebie.

[aedemiel]

This beauty combos with Cataclysm.

[Glass House]

Mutate might lead to some interesting limited games. Being able to mutate onto any non-Human creature might give it applications in constructed, but we'll have to wait and see. Companion seems... idiotic. At the very least, I'm excited about new cycling cards.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Companions -
The Otter, Kraken and the Hippo are both blue hybrid mana costed so in terms of casting cost those are certainly playable, although the restriction on at least the Otter is pretty tough. The Hippo could be manageable, after all both FoW and FoN are 3+ cc. Note that Lutri's enter play ability is restricted to on cast, but Keruga's is not. That doesn't really make Keruga playable but idk maybe in some sort of blue Superfriends concept? The Kraken has an easier restriction to work around (fine with a Chalice deck) but the restriction kills both FoW and FoN. Lutri is somewhat less restrictive in Vintage since... in Vintage you have the restricted list. You can still play 3 extra copies of FoW in your sb.

There seems to be some cheaper mutate costs i.e. 2cc, 3cc. Since Nimble Mongoose is one of my top 10 favorite cards, I'm keeping an eye on this mechanic. Also note that Mutate saves the mutate creature if the target creature fizzles. This could be a really great mechanic that will be popular for a long time. Although true it's very Yugi-Oh.

Also it seems like there will be Japanese art variants again?

https://mtg-jp.com/reading/kochima/0033907/

[Barook]

Rules question:

If an opponent controls Archetype of Imagination, then the flying counter is still placed, but does nothing, so you could still infinite sac under Mothra? Not that this is ever going to happen, but it's an interesting interaction.

[Fox]

Companion mechanic has no text in legacy right? This seems like you’d have to reveal deck at the end of every game for opponent to verify that you’re following construction rules.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Rules question:

If an opponent controls Archetype of Imagination, then the flying counter is still placed, but does nothing, so you could still infinite sac under Mothra? Not that this is ever going to happen, but it's an interesting interaction.

That would be my understanding: Can't beats can, the creature doesn't have flying, and you can recur again and again.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Companion mechanic has no text in legacy right? This seems like you’d have to reveal deck at the end of every game for opponent to verify that you’re following construction rules.
It still has text in legacy, but because you have to reveal your companion before every game it would (based on the current revealed restrictions) be pretty obvious when you break the rules, and I'm sure if your opponent catches you doing so the results are game loss (bad sideboarding) to immediate disqualification (including brainstorm in you evens-only deck G1).

[H]

It still has text in legacy, but because you have to reveal your companion before every game it would (based on the current revealed restrictions) be pretty obvious when you break the rules, and I'm sure if your opponent catches you doing so the results are game loss (bad sideboarding) to immediate disqualification (including brainstorm in you evens-only deck G1).

Yeah, I mean, we'll find out more later today after Tabek does the Reddit AMA on the rules, but it isn't as if you reveal your deck to prove you don't have 5 Scalding Tarns, or 5 Brainstorms right now, so this hardly seems like a big deal.

[H]

This a bad Cataclysm version:
https://i.imgur.com/noATr8I.png

However, this one is more interesting:
https://i.imgur.com/uyEB9Ji.png

While it does mean you have to be in BGWx, that isn't a terrible place to be at the moment.

[Ronald Deuce]

Much as I hate tie-ins, I could totally go for one of those Biollante things.

EDIT: The spoiler I saw was in Japanese, so I have no idea what it does.

[Glass House]

https://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/drannithmagistrate.jpg

Weenie for the Weenie God!
Hatebear for the Hatebear Throne!

[Fox]

Well that hatebear has some re-assuring text, but maybe don't push the yard to such a ridiculous value zone we need cards like this. It's also rather ineffective against Snapcaster since they kill it and go about their lives. Shouldn't see much legacy play (can't Recruiter 3 toughness), and rather poor insurance vs GY as compared to the Delver-blocking, tutorable Remorseful Cleric.

This one of those times in legacy where you really miss what the graveyard policeman [DRS] did for the format. Seems like you could do a lot for the format by something as simple as printing the exact same DRS which specifies activating a not-land mode (successfully) like 2x before being able to eat lands. Ofc it could have also just said exile target land in yard, get a mana of a type it could produce...

Looks like legacy in general dodged a bullet with Snapdax, you'd have to be 5c to play that (alt cost) with Veil. Not an encouraging sign though, toying with pretend color restrictions, if they do undercost something incorrectly. WotC really needs to recognize that PWs are kinda bullsh*t, as a card type, and card that reset landbases and battlefield to the stone age while letting people maintain a PW makes them even more abusive and degenerate.

[ahg113]

https://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/drannithmagistrate.jpg

Weenie for the Weenie God!
Hatebear for the Hatebear Throne!

I hate this card with a passion. MtG are jerks. Luckily, hatebears aren't all that popular, and the corner cases it'll excell (cast from exile, cast from graveyard) are not so prolific that it'll see lots of play. In the block, it stops mutate, so I get it. Dislike that this is one-sided, hate bears have usually been symmetrical. Still - F U R&D.

Also, silly question. When one mutates a creature, and there's an effect, such as gemrazer - that destroy an enchantment/artifact is going to happen regardless if gemrazer is the top or bottom card, correct?

[ahg113]

Looks like legacy in general dodged a bullet with Snapdax, you'd have to be 5c to play that (alt cost) with Veil. Not an encouraging sign though, toying with pretend color restrictions, if they do undercost something incorrectly. WotC really needs to recognize that PWs are kinda bullsh*t, as a card type, and card that reset landbases and battlefield to the stone age while letting people maintain a PW makes them even more abusive and degenerate.

Oh gosh, I really want to play this card, the Mythos card too, kinda sorta, but not really. I unfortunately cling onto playing a team italia deck. This looks saucy, kind of appealing to someone not sober. I used to be 4c, but then some jerks decided DRS was too good because U, so it's back to being a 3c deck. I'm shocked this is actually playable, truth be told.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

In the block, it stops mutate, so I get it.

It has no interaction with mutate*.

*There is one creature that can use it's mutate ability from the yard.

[Fox]

Just realized it didn’t say lands, looks like they at least recognized the implications (card unplayable). Stil the mechanic of pretending off-color mana matters when Oko is permitting Astrolabe seems like a rather poor design space.

[Barook]

I hate this card with a passion. MtG are jerks. Luckily, hatebears aren't all that popular, and the corner cases it'll excell (cast from exile, cast from graveyard) are not so prolific that it'll see lots of play. In the block, it stops mutate, so I get it. Dislike that this is one-sided, hate bears have usually been symmetrical. Still - F U R&D.

Also, silly question. When one mutates a creature, and there's an effect, such as gemrazer - that destroy an enchantment/artifact is going to happen regardless if gemrazer is the top or bottom card, correct?
I don't understand why this hatebear isn't symmetrical, either. The whole point of hatebears is being symmetrical to impose interesting deckbuilding restrictions.

Putting it into the same decks it's trying to hose is defeating the whole purpose of hatebears.

On a different topic:
http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/diretactics.jpg
Doesn't seem too shabby as back-up removal in WB.

New fodder for Human decks:
http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/generalkudroofdrannith.jpg

Name up to the air, but kinda decent at its cost:
https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Wilt%2B%255BIKO%255D.jpg

[Fox]

Dire Tactics outclassed by both Berserk and Orzhov Charm which have life-loss engine (Shadow) aspect and modal use towards winning the game rather than being solely reactive. The exile part is better ofc vs Marit Lage specifically. Dire Tactics impedes the best engine the fair BW-core has (Dark Confidant).

[morgan_coke]

I am genuinely shocked that the cycling cards this set haven't been hit with the "it's got cycling so it needs to cost 1 more and the cycling cost needs to have an extra unnecessary colored mana added to it".

I don't expect Drift or a new Rift or anything good like that, but the two cycling humans are definitely at least theoretically playable.

I wonder if the lands for this set are going to be tri-colors with cycling 2, or perhaps double hybrid cycling costs centered on their wedge.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Just saw the BR companion: it costs five, demands only odd cmc
Costed spells and makes all your odd cmc sources deal double damage. It's of note because I noticed in the original
Language it was spoiled in isn't creature types are "horror infernal"

[nupert]

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/a/e/ae9f7efa-d125-4f83-825e-172ea099a62a.jpg?1585921195

What's the reason this one says "player" instead of "opponent" like Coastal Piracy does? Am I supposed to hit myself? Does this have any applications in multi player formats? Is there some new rule coming that makes this text change reasonable? Is it for some text rewrite trickery? Or just random?

[Fox]

@nupert might be an attempt to bolster the counterburn archetype, seems fine with Eidolon-types. I would also guess that there is some infinite combo creature that has text like “discard a card, deal 1 dmg to a player.” The combat dmg requirement makes this impossible, so who knows. Maybe Stuffy Doll’s redirected damage counts as combat damage if it came from a combat source?

[nupert]

I just recognized that Bident of Thassa has the same wording as Reconnaissance Mission so it might just be something that Wizards does like that nowadays? It still gets me wondering.

[Cire]

Some cards:

Call of the Death-Dweller 2B
Sorcery
Return up to two target creature cards with total converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield. Put a deathtouch counter on either of them. Then put a menace counter on either of them.

Pretty cheap way of getting two creatures from graveyard onto the battlefield. Don't know what you can do with such low CMC.

Crystalline Giant 3
Artifact Creature - Giant
At the beginning of combat on your turn, choose a kind of counter at random that that Crystalline Giant doesn't have on it from among flying, first strike, deathtouch, hexproof, lifelink, menace, reach, trample, vigilance, and +1/+1. Put a counter of that kind on Crystalline Giant.
3/3

It'll get its first counter the turn it comes into play? So at worst its a 3 mana 4/4 with . . . reach? So at worst it's first attack is as a 3 mana 5/5 with reach and . . . deathtouch?

Gemrazer 3G
Creature - Beast
Mutate 1GG
Reach, trample
Whenever this creature mutates, destroy target artifact or enchantment an opponent controls.
4/4

Seems pretty cheaply costed?

General's Enforcer WB
Creature - Human Soldier
Legendary Humans you control have indestructible.
2WB: Exile target creature from a graveyard. If it was a creature card, create a 1/1 white Human Soldier creature token.
2/3

Human Tribal? Wait . . . are legendary humans good?

Yidaro, Wandering Monster 5RR
Legendary Creature - Dinosaur Turtle
Trample, haste
Cycling 1R
When you cycle Yidaro, Wandering Monster, shuffle it into your library from your graveyard. If you've cycled a card named Yidaro, Wandering Monster four or more times this game, put it onto the battlefield from your graveyard instead.
8/8

Would love to see if this may be slotted into somehow to Cycling decks. . . .

Zilortha, Strength Incarnate 3RG
Legendary Creature - Dinosaur
Trample
Lethal damage dealt to creature you control is determined by their power rather than their toughness.
7/3

This is new . . . essentially a 7/7

[Fox]

Call of the Death-Dweller seems fine with 2x Dreadnoughts. Also perfectly fine to rebuy a Delver + Goyf/Pyro in a black-using Delver deck.

Crystalline Giant seems pretty decent in limited, but this [otherwise fine] card auto-loses to Goyf.

Yidaro seems like one of the more decent creatures in the context of Standstill, but doesn’t do enough early stop combo nor is it quick enough to snipe Oko (EoT haste trick) plus or minus combining this idea with Teferi. It’s a pretty funny combat trick/value trick engine late - particularly with a Karakas. The inherent anti-mill (in the sense that an 8/8 can kill quickly) isn’t nothing, and if you’re doing the Karakas stuff this thing is basically a Blinking Spirit on ‘roids.

[Barook]

@Cire

Crystalline Giant doesn't work this way. The +1/+1 counter is part of the 10 counters. So it's either a 4/4 that can't further get more +1/+1 counters by itself or a 3/3 with a random ability.

Gemrazer seems alright. Worse cast scenario, you fetch a Dryad Arbor if you need to blow up something.

The first thing that comes into my mind with General's Enforcer is Leyline of Singularity. Between this and Karakas, there should a bunch of fun interactions, like Karakas + Recruiter + Vial becoming a serious engine.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

@nupert might be an attempt to bolster the counterburn archetype, seems fine with Eidolon-types. I would also guess that there is some infinite combo creature that has text like “discard a card, deal 1 dmg to a player.” The combat dmg requirement makes this impossible, so who knows. Maybe Stuffy Doll’s redirected damage counts as combat damage if it came from a combat source?

Stuffy doll doesn't redirect damage it takes damage, and has a triggered ability when it takes damage.
But if you did manage to redirect damage it would still be combat damage, yes.

[morgan_coke]

Shark Typhoon.

A new (blue) variant on Decree of Justice. Don't know that it'll make Standstill a deck again, but between that and Yidaro, UR has the tools to at least make a go at it as far as win cons are concerned.

Also, standard Jeskai control is going to be a really stupid mirror.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/rielletheeverwise.jpg

Pretty cool card. Should be good with Faithless Looting, cycling, Dack, Bazaar (in Vintage) or, if you want of YOLO your hand, LED. There should be plenty of ways to abuse this.

[nupert]

http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/rielletheeverwise.jpg

Pretty cool card. Should be good with Faithless Looting, cycling, Dack, Bazaar (in Vintage) or, if you want of YOLO your hand, LED. There should be plenty of ways to abuse this.

Seems like Breakthrough is the way to break it. It does it all and it doesn't cost a fortune.

[Fox]

Seems like Breakthrough is the way to break it. It does it all and it doesn't cost a fortune.
I think the issue is more that you have to get up to PW mana, cast this at sorc speed, and pass the turn (into an Oko). Doubt you can afford to have a deck with Breakthrough it can’t cast until ~turn 4. Probably better off hiding the effect in the manabase with Cephalid Colosseum.

[nupert]

I think the issue is more that you have to get up to PW mana, cast this at sorc speed, and pass the turn (into an Oko). Doubt you can afford to have a deck with Breakthrough it can’t cast until ~turn 4. Probably better off hiding the effect in the manabase with Cephalid Colosseum.

Seems about right. Getting it killed in response is the worst thing ever. Then again, resolving Breakthrough with her in the board must be so satisfying. Probably not in legacy though. She is fragile.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Why cast breakthrough when you can hymn your opponents with burning inquiry

[Barook]

Why cast breakthrough when you can hymn your opponents with burning inquiry
Depends on the contents of your previous hand. You also randomly lose 3 cards out of your hand, aka stuff that you might miss afterwards.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Mutate targets. Wont work with Mongoose. Grr.

[TsumiBand]

Companion looks fraught with issues, for paper Magic anyway. It reminds me of Genn/Baku from Hearthstone. Those guys made Standard a shitstorm and I believe their devs went as far as to call them a mistake.

Part of me wants to say this is to encourage people to just play more online Magic so these kinds of cards "just work" and no player will be subject to a deckbuilding mistake. This is very difficult to easily enforce in meatspace. I don't like this.

[Barook]

https://i.redd.it/yrfgv1bc11r41.png

Lavabrink Adventurer - 2W
Creature - Human Soldier
As ~ enters the battlefield choose odd or even.
~ has protection from converted mana costs of the chosen quality.
3/3

It's no TNN, but an interesting card nonetheless against the right decks.

[Fox]

Name odd: can’t use Mother of Runes, SoFI/Skull, or Flickerwisp to save.
Name even: can’t equip Jitte.

[morgan_coke]

Companion looks fraught with issues, for paper Magic anyway. It reminds me of Genn/Baku from Hearthstone. Those guys made Standard a shitstorm and I believe their devs went as far as to call them a mistake.

Part of me wants to say this is to encourage people to just play more online Magic so these kinds of cards "just work" and no player will be subject to a deckbuilding mistake. This is very difficult to easily enforce in meatspace. I don't like this.

I think their theory on it is since the card with Companion is face up the whole game, you don't need to see their decklist, you just call a judge if they play anything that violates the rule. Overall though, its a nifty casual concept, but a bad idea for a standard legal set.

[morgan_coke]

Holy Shit.

Evasion Protocol 1U
Enchantment
Whenever you cycle a card you may pay 1, if you do, exile target artifact or creature you control, then return that card to the battlefield under its owners control.

So it's Slide, with an activation cost, in Blue, for one less mana, and it can hit both creatures and artifacts, but only your own.

Like, I'm really happy to see this, but unless there's a great artifact to move with this, overall, I've got to say it's a lot worse than the OG card. The biggest advantage of Slide was always being able to stall your opponents dudes, popping your own guys in and out just hasn't been that great since the M10 rules changes killed damage on the stack.

On the other hand, the white cycling version of Young Pyromancer and the new red "burn your opponent rift guy" are fairly strong, so, I guess this being worse balances that out? I dunno, there's absolutely a Standard deck here, and probably a Pioneer one too, even if most of the stuff from Ahmonket block does suck. Drake Roost in Pioneer is probably worth another look now.

EDIT: maybe the best use in standard is you can use this to "un-mutate" your guys and have multiple creatures instead of one super one?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Holy Shit.

Evasion Protocol 1U
Enchantment
Whenever you cycle a card you may pay 1, if you do, exile target artifact or creature you control, then return that card to the battlefield under its owners control.

So it's Slide, with an activation cost, in Blue, for one less mana, and it can hit both creatures and artifacts, but only your own.

Like, I'm really happy to see this, but unless there's a great artifact to move with this, overall, I've got to say it's a lot worse than the OG card. The biggest advantage of Slide was always being able to stall your opponents dudes, popping your own guys in and out just hasn't been that great since the M10 rules changes killed damage on the stack.

On the other hand, the white cycling version of Young Pyromancer and the new red "burn your opponent rift guy" are fairly strong, so, I guess this being worse balances that out? I dunno, there's absolutely a Standard deck here, and probably a Pioneer one too, even if most of the stuff from Ahmonket block does suck. Drake Roost in Pioneer is probably worth another look now.
Sounds like it goes large with a Dynamo or a Monolith. Someone else will have to figure out the next part of the combo that mills a bunch of your deck.
EDIT: maybe the best use in standard is you can use this to "un-mutate" your guys and have multiple creatures instead of one super one?
EDIT: Looks like I forgot the text of my post?
It seems to go "infinite" with a monolith or a dynamo, so maybe we're looking at a weird cycle deck that goes into living end?

[Fox]

So what is the deal with mutate:
-I put it under animated Factory, and pass turn...does it fall off?
-Opponent has Decay (can't hit Factory), can they target the mutated thing? If so, what is its card type?
-It would make sense if the mutates turned into a local enchantment, but if they don't....where are they? Like can Wasteland Strangler eat them off the creature from exile?

[ahg113]

Another simple question - can a creature be mutated several times? Creature A mutated by creatures B, C, and D? When creature A dies, creatures B, C, and D are all in play, if they are later mutated, does this count as the 2nd time they are mutated? Is that line of thinking correct?

[Kage]

So what is the deal with mutate:
-I put it under animated Factory, and pass turn...does it fall off?
-Opponent has Decay (can't hit Factory), can they target the mutated thing? If so, what is its card type?
-It would make sense if the mutates turned into a local enchantment, but if they don't....where are they? Like can Wasteland Strangler eat them off the creature from exile?

To put it simply, only the 'top of the stack' creature 'exists' so only it can be targeted, mutated stuff underneath it are treated as extra buffs added to the top of the stack creature. If the top creature leaves the field, all the mutates underneath it go to the same zone. Note, however, that similar to bestow if the creature you target with a mutant on the stack leaves the bf before the mutant resolves, the mutant will etb as the 'normal version' without any mutate triggers

The rules article does not specify Factory, blink or similar effects. Yeah, it's gonna be a clusterfuck.

[Barook]

So what is the deal with mutate:
-I put it under animated Factory, and pass turn...does it fall off?
-Opponent has Decay (can't hit Factory), can they target the mutated thing? If so, what is its card type?
-It would make sense if the mutates turned into a local enchantment, but if they don't....where are they? Like can Wasteland Strangler eat them off the creature from exile?
As I understand it, it stays on the Factory, but wouldn't the mutated mods be lost once you animate it? How does this work?

Edit:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU84XAbU0AAqJiR?format=jpg&name=small

I don't see why people are creaming themselves over this on Twitter. Okay, some nice utility for Storm, but what else?

[Fox]

Don’t think you can play that card in not-commander b/c it’s cmc is >2 and it can’t start outside your deck (in command zone)???

[Barook]

Don’t think you can play that card in not-commander b/c it’s cmc is >2 and it can’t start outside your deck (in command zone)???
It's seperate from the starting deck, so you can cast it.

I've missed that you can run it as a regular card in your deck as well. That gets rid off its drawback, too.

Somebody has pointed out the combo with Hope of Ghirapur.

[morgan_coke]

As I understand it, it stays on the Factory, but wouldn't the mutated mods be lost once you animate it? How does this work?

Edit:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU84XAbU0AAqJiR?format=jpg&name=small

I don't see why people are creaming themselves over this on Twitter. Okay, some nice utility for Storm, but what else?

Forget Companion, you just put that in your deck as a regular creature x4 and enjoy the valuetown.

Also, this is the single best Cycling card printed since Astral Drift (apologies to Shark Typhoon)
https://media.wizards.com/2020/iko/en_5bKJPqkG1o.png

[Barook]

4x is probaby too much for it.

@Fox: Is this a wincon for Fluctuator decks?

T1: Land, Fox
T2: Land, Fluctuator, cycle until you're good.

[Fox]

4x is probaby too much for it.

@Fox: Is this a wincon for Fluctuator decks?

T1: Land, Fox
T2: Land, Fluctuator, cycle until you're good.

Wouldn't try that even if it had trample. Need 2 cards without manipulation or protection.

[morgan_coke]

4x is probaby too much for it.

@Fox: Is this a wincon for Fluctuator decks?

T1: Land, Fox
T2: Land, Fluctuator, cycle until you're good.

In Legacy it's a 2x probably in DnT or Grixs 'mancer. In Standard cycling decks it's a 4x, same with Pioneer. (The companion kitty I mean)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So what is the deal with mutate:
-I put it under animated Factory, and pass turn...does it fall off?
-Opponent has Decay (can't hit Factory), can they target the mutated thing? If so, what is its card type?
-It would make sense if the mutates turned into a local enchantment, but if they don't....where are they? Like can Wasteland Strangler eat them off the creature from exile?

Based on what the card says (so without rules) it won't fall off, and the land will just have some useless triggered ability. Then when you animate it the ability will still be there (just like its tap; add Mana ability doesn't go anywhere when it's a creature)
No, the mutated part of the factory well be under the factory and none of those characteristics will apply. So it's still a land, its cmc is still 0, still colorless. If you put it on top:
Yes. It will have the cmc, color, and p/t of the mutation card. At end of turn it will remain a creature because those are the current characteristics of the card (mutate-top should overwrite them) and retain the Mana ability and the ability to turn it into a 2/2 assembly worker
They're in play, sort of fused. Mutate is a creature spell that resolves into a characteristic defining ability, with functionality similar to meld.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

As I understand it, it stays on the Factory, but wouldn't the mutated mods be lost once you animate it? How does this work?

Edit:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU84XAbU0AAqJiR?format=jpg&name=small

I don't see why people are creaming themselves over this on Twitter. Okay, some nice utility for Storm, but what else?

Ok, so I t1 LED this onto the battlefield.
Now what?

[Fox]

Ok, so I t1 LED this onto the battlefield.
Now what?

Rit, this, recast some cantrips and Ice-Fang, and call it a day. :laugh:

A true hero goes Rit, Cat -> turn 2 double Sinkhole. Aw nvm....only permanents.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Another simple question - can a creature be mutated several times? Creature A mutated by creatures B, C, and D? When creature A dies, creatures B, C, and D are all in play, if they are later mutated, does this count as the 2nd time they are mutated? Is that line of thinking correct?

Yes. Many of these creatures are designed to be mutated over and over. Basically one creature will be on top, and that will define the name, CMC, P/T, color, types, ect of the card but then every card mutated onto it will add it's textbox (and nothing else) to the top creature. And when you mutate, you get the choice of keeping the current top creature, or having the mutation spell be the new top creature.
So (assuming these cards had mutate)
You have a birds of paradise.
You mutate Grisslebrand underneith it.
You'll have a 0/1 Green lifelink flying bird with T: Add one of any color and Pay 7 life: Draw seven cards.
Now you mutate Delver of secrets on top of it
You'll have 1/1 Blue human wizard with Flying, lifelink, T: Add one of any color of mana, pay 7 life: Draw seven cards, and "at the beginning of your upkeep look at the top ... and transform"

Edit: I thought about it more and more I think the mutations don't care if the delver transforms, they'll still be there.

[Barook]

In Legacy it's a 2x probably in DnT or Grixs 'mancer. In Standard cycling decks it's a 4x, same with Pioneer. (The companion kitty I mean)
Would Grixis decks run Kroxa to combo with it?

Edit: You could also recycle Ballista over and over again with it, which is kinda nice.

[morgan_coke]

Would Grixis decks run Kroxa to combo with it?

Edit: You could also recycle Ballista over and over again with it, which is kinda nice.

Snap, Kroxa, Pyro, Thalia, Vial, Chalice, EE, Omen of the Sea (not Legacy relevant), Standstill, that flippy Kraken Horror thing, 'Goyf, Death's Shadow, any relevant permanent with cycling, lotta good options there.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Rit, this, recast some cantrips and Ice-Fang, and call it a day. :laugh:

A true hero goes Rit, Cat -> turn 2 double Sinkhole. Aw nvm....only permanents.

But it only limits permanents in construction so you can still play Force!

[Watersaw]

Ok, so I t1 LED this onto the battlefield.
Now what?

Recast LED, next turn flashback Echo of Eons?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Recast LED, next turn flashback Echo of Eons?

Well I can do that now because it's in my yard and I have an LED in play.

[Cire]

As I understand it, it stays on the Factory, but wouldn't the mutated mods be lost once you animate it? How does this work?

Edit:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU84XAbU0AAqJiR?format=jpg&name=small

I don't see why people are creaming themselves over this on Twitter. Okay, some nice utility for Storm, but what else?

Forget building a deck around it (the FBing LED and Petal each turn - hell you can play this with standstill) what permanents do you absolutely need to run that are >2? Just play a Esper Deck as normal and include this as a companion. . . you can also play a white hatebear deck! Play it later to get back a hate bear you lost.

Edit - in regards to Lurrus and LED, if we get a good number of cards to cast out of graveyard with LED you can run it a bit like Vintage workshop decks? Mulligan aggressively (and maybe use Serum Powder) into LED + [Card you want to cast with LED]. Then turn 1 LED --> Lurrus from sideboard --> LED --> [Card you want to cast with LED]. Hopefully that is a lot of value? We just need to find [Card you want to cast with LED] . . . . Echo of Eons is 4 cards, I think you might want 6 more cards that you want to use with LED for this to be a potential avenue to build around (as it is though you can give you opponent a random 7 and start with Lurrus just by aggressively Mulligan into LED + Echo.

I'm just trying to envision how a underworld breach deck with Lurrus might have looked :laugh:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Forget building a deck around it (the FBing LED and Petal each turn - hell you can play this with standstill) what permanents do you absolutely need to run that are >2? Just play a Esper Deck as normal and include this as a companion. . . you can also play a white hatebear deck! Play it later to get back a hate bear you lost.

Edit - in regards to Lurrus and LED, if we get a good number of cards to cast out of graveyard with LED you can run it a bit like Vintage workshop decks? Mulligan aggressively (and maybe use Serum Powder) into LED + [Card you want to cast with LED]. Then turn 1 LED --> Lurrus from sideboard --> LED --> [Card you want to cast with LED]. Hopefully that is a lot of value? We just need to find [Card you want to cast with LED] . . . . Echo of Eons is 4 cards, I think you might want 6 more cards that you want to use with LED for this to be a potential avenue to build around (as it is though you can give you opponent a random 7 and start with Lurrus just by aggressively Mulligan into LED + Echo.

I'm just trying to envision how a underworld breach deck with Lurrus might have looked :laugh:
4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone
4x Quiet Speculation
4x Echo of the Eons
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Fiathless looting.
4x Goblin Engineer
4x Wishclaw talisman
4x Lotus Petal
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Volcanic island
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
8x Other lands
//SB
1 Larrus of the Dream Den
UR Graveyard Painter, maybe it needs more dredge? Drakmore has dredge and casts LArrus

[Barook]

(and maybe use Serum Powder)
Serum Powder is a permanent with CMC of 3, so you can't use it in tandem with Companion.

God, these new mechanics are all such terrible, over-complicated clusterfucks. :rolleyes:

[Cire]

Serum Powder is a permanent with CMC of 3, so you can't use it in tandem with Companion.


Ah, oops.

Another thought . . . If you save your LED for turn 2 you can do stuff like this:

Turn 1 - Land + Discard/Draw
Turn 2 - Land + Discard/Draw + LED -> LED into Lurrus from Board, discard a Titan. FB LED with Lurrus -> Escape your Titan.

14 Land
10 Cantrips
8 Discard Spells
4 FOW
4 Daze
6 Titans
4 Echo
4 LED
4 Petal
6 Open

Companion: Lurrus

[Fox]

I don't think you're allowed to play Echo or FoW with Lurrus pre-requisite of cmc under 3

[Pittplayer]

I don't think you're allowed to play Echo or FoW with Lurrus pre-requisite of cmc under 3

Read the card again, but slowly this time.

[Fox]

Perms only...too much text...

[H]

OK, lets tone it down though, these are new cards and often are untinutive.

Lurrus only limits you to permanents that are less then 2 CMC, not all spells.

[PirateKing]

I don't think you're allowed to play Echo or FoW with Lurrus pre-requisite of cmc under 3

CMC restriction relates only to permanent cards...

Also everyone is getting hung up on the deckbuilding restrictions as it relates to Companion.
You can play this in you deck as just a card, and realistically should be evaluated as such.

This card is a Value Machine. Yeah there are some fancy tricks you can run with LED and stuff, but what about just replaying Baleful Strix and SFM and Thalia?
Everyone is tripping over this like it's a Dark Confidant and the only comments are "BuT wHaT iF I fLiP oVeR a DrACo?"
Forgo the cutesy junk and just play it like a normal card

[H]

Forgo the cutesy junk and just play it like a normal card

Yeah, my first reaction to the card was to think of a DGA sort of deck where the only things 3-CMC would be Linger Souls and Vindicates.

You could put Liliana in the sideboard for matchups where you really need it and then bring Lurrus into the maindeck. I mean, no idea if it is "good" but there are a lot of 2-CMC "value" things to be played with this, I think, outside of "combos."

[BenBleiweiss]

I love this card, it's going to be a real player in Pioneer and Standard. Is there anything good to do with it in Legacy?

https://i.redd.it/yakinzaxoer41.png

[PirateKing]

Yeah, my first reaction to the card was to think of a DGA sort of deck where the only things 3-CMC would be Linger Souls and Vindicates.

You could put Liliana in the sideboard for matchups where you really need it and then bring Lurrus into the maindeck. I mean, no idea if it is "good" but there are a lot of 2-CMC "value" things to be played with this, I think, outside of "combos."

No no no. Play Liliana. Play Lurrus. Play anything you want.
https://i.imgur.com/91etS48.jpg

This is all the relevant text you need.
3/2 Lifelink for 3.
Recast a permanent CMC 2 or less from you graveyard each turn.

That's it.
And that's enough.

[BenBleiweiss]

Heartless Act (1B)

Instant (uncommon)

Choose One -
- Destroy target creature with no counters on it.
- Remove up to three counters from target creature.

[Barook]

I love this card, it's going to be a real player in Pioneer and Standard. Is there anything good to do with it in Legacy?
Seems fun with Hardened Scales and especially Winding Constrictor (which double-dips).

Question about Lurrus - does this work this way?

1) Cast something with Lurrus
2) Bounce it with Karakas
3) Vial Lurrus back in

Can you cast another spell from the "new" Lurrus or does the restriction get tracked like land drops?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Seems fun with Hardened Scales and especially Winding Constrictor (which double-dips).

Question about Lurrus - does this work this way?

1) Cast something with Lurrus
2) Bounce it with Karakas
3) Vial Lurrus back in

Can you cast another spell from the "new" Lurrus or does the restriction get tracked like land drops?
Exactly like land drops. You can cast one permanent. A new one sees you have cast one permanent.

[BenBleiweiss]

Ben Bleiweiss
@StarCityBen
21m
@EliShffrn
Official word on how Ozilith interacts with Modular?
------------------------
Eli Shiffrin
@EliShffrn


17m
Both triggers put counters on something; The Ozolith on itself, modular on the target artifact creature.
-----------------
Ben Bleiweiss
@StarCityBen

7m
So just confirming to be absolutely clear: If you have a 1/1 Modular creature, and it dies, you both put a +1/+1 counter on another artifact creature AND put a +1/+1 counter on The Ozolith?
-----------------
Eli Shiffrin
@EliShffrn
Replying to
@StarCityBen

Yes

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ben Bleiweiss
@StarCityBen
21m
@EliShffrn
Official word on how Ozilith interacts with Modular?
------------------------
Eli Shiffrin
@EliShffrn


17m
Both triggers put counters on something; The Ozolith on itself, modular on the target artifact creature.
-----------------
Ben Bleiweiss
@StarCityBen

7m
So just confirming to be absolutely clear: If you have a 1/1 Modular creature, and it dies, you both put a +1/+1 counter on another artifact creature AND put a +1/+1 counter on The Ozolith?
-----------------
Eli Shiffrin
@EliShffrn
Replying to
@StarCityBen

Yes
Now get him to respond to why a Haktos that entered face-down doesn't have protection from all converted mana costs. If he quotes 113.11 remind him that it clearly says only "that part" of the ability cease to function.

[H]

Well Steel Stompy wasn't bad in Legacy, but since that deck runs Chalice and Thorns, I'm not sure a 1-CMC non-creature spell really makes the cut despite how good it is with Modular. But I can see this being quite good with anything running Hardened Scales.

[BenBleiweiss]

Now get him to respond to why a Haktos that entered face-down doesn't have protection from all converted mana costs. If he quotes 113.11 remind him that it clearly says only "that part" of the ability cease to function.

You can fight your own battles, good sir. I'm just here to spread the word of our new lord and savior Ozolith ;)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You can fight your own battles, good sir. I'm just here to spread the word of our new lord and savior Ozolith ;)

The coward refuses to answer my tweets, or give an address to deliver a cookie basket to.

[Watersaw]

Well I can do that now because it's in my yard and I have an LED in play.

Oh right I'm illiterate and for some reason thought it was 6 mana to flashback. My bad

[ronco]

No no no. Play Liliana. Play Lurrus. Play anything you want.
https://i.imgur.com/91etS48.jpg

This is all the relevant text you need.
3/2 Lifelink for 3.
Recast a permanent CMC 2 or less from you graveyard each turn.

That's it.
And that's enough.gatekeeper of malakir gets a little better with this (kicker doesn't impact cmc from my understanding). Not sure if that's too cute, but nice value there provided the parts all stick around.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Qweerios]

No no no. Play Liliana. Play Lurrus. Play anything you want.
https://i.imgur.com/91etS48.jpg

This is all the relevant text you need.
3/2 Lifelink for 3.
Recast a permanent CMC 2 or less from you graveyard each turn.

That's it.
And that's enough.

What makes Lurrus appealing to me is that it is essentially a 3/2 Lifelink 3drop with a relevant grind ability that expands your starting hand size to 8 at the cost of a deckbuilding restriction that may or may not be relevant.

For example you could have an Abzan deck with mana dorks that you know would always have a 3drop to follow a T1 dork. You can always use Lingering Souls and Green Sun's Zenith, Hexdrinker or Scanvenging Ooze as mana sinks that would act as pseudo CMC3+ cards. There are also cards that pair naturally well with Lurrus such as Qasali Pridemage, Goblin Cratermaker, and Fauna Shaman.

[morgan_coke]

https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ikoria-lair-of-behemoths/38097-zenith-flare

As far as Legacy goes, this is just an easy finish for any Fluctuator meme decks that didn't win off the back of Drannith Stinger. But it's a really strong card for Standard, might even make it into Pioneer.

EDIT: image isn't loading, it's a 2RW Instant that does damage and gains life equal to the number of cycling cards in your graveyard.

[mistercakes]

i think any deck running this cat should probably load up on lotus petals. i think it's pretty interesting in steel stompy as well, especially recurring ravagers or walking ballistas.

[Tylert]

Yeah, my first reaction to the card was to think of a DGA sort of deck where the only things 3-CMC would be Linger Souls and Vindicates.

You could put Liliana in the sideboard for matchups where you really need it and then bring Lurrus into the maindeck. I mean, no idea if it is "good" but there are a lot of 2-CMC "value" things to be played with this, I think, outside of "combos."

I also think this could be played as a companion in Death and taxes.
THe 3 cmc permanents are FLickerwisp (could be charming prince, even if it's not exactly the same card), Sword of fire and Ice and batterskull.
All the sideboard 3cmc+ cards are non permanents cards (Council, cataclysm, Gideon...).

I like the idea of having acces to this whenever I want to rebuy thalia (Or remorsfull cleric to hoose the opponent's graveyard). Just need to figure what to do with the stoneforge package (We still have Jitte but we loose flexibility).

[Barook]

I also think this could be played as a companion in Death and taxes.
THe 3 cmc permanents are FLickerwisp (could be charming prince, even if it's not exactly the same card), Sword of fire and Ice and batterskull.
All the sideboard 3cmc+ cards are non permanents cards (Council, cataclysm, Gideon...).

I like the idea of having acces to this whenever I want to rebuy thalia (Or remorsfull cleric to hoose the opponent's graveyard). Just need to figure what to do with the stoneforge package (We still have Jitte but we loose flexibility).
Why would you cut crucial cards from D&T to run it as companion for a single copy? Just run it normally in the deck, as it can be fetched with Recruiter.

[Tylert]

Why would you cut crucial cards from D&T to run it as companion for a single copy? Just run it normally in the deck, as it can be fetched with Recruiter.

Card advantage, but I forgot about recruiter :)
Yeah, let's run it MD :)

[mistercakes]

song of creation looks like an interesting card. really powerful with dredge effects and untap effects. also pretty busted with 0 drops.

1GUR

enchantment

you may play an additional land on each of your turns.

whenever you cast a spell, draw 2 cards.

at the beginning of your end step, discard your hand.

[H]

song of creation looks like an interesting card. really powerful with dredge effects and untap effects. also pretty busted with 0 drops.

1GUR

enchantment

you may play an additional land on each of your turns.

whenever you cast a spell, draw 2 cards.

at the beginning of your end step, discard your hand.
For reference:
https://i.imgur.com/4UryvnR.png

Maybe something that makes it more worth it to "go bigger" (i.e. mid-range) for RUG.

Also, Ultimatums are back. Which isn't really news for Legacy, but I do think most of them are just cool cards:
https://i.imgur.com/JYS5wY3.png
https://i.imgur.com/tvVcd2H.png

Both seem pretty well and possibly game ending, but now OP (for EDH and the like).

[Cire]

Are there 3 cards that you can search for with Emergent Ultimatum that regardless of what opponent picks any two win you the game together?

[Barook]

Emergent Ultimatum works very well with Eldrazi Titans - serach up New Ulamag and the two Emrakuls, watch the opponent die in agony.

As for Song of Creation, this should work best in tandem with Loam - you get a guaranteed spell every turn (so you can't brick with a land draw) to get things going AND two guaranteed land drops. Having a huge land selection between all those discard lands + dredge is just a bonus.

[Cire]

Emergent Ultimatum works very well with Eldrazi Titans - serach up New Ulamag and the two Emrakuls, watch the opponent die in agony.

As for Song of Creation, this should work best in tandem with Loam - you get a guaranteed spell every turn (so you can't brick with a land draw) to get things going AND two guaranteed land drops. Having a huge land selection between all those discard lands + dredge is just a bonus.

Do colorless cards count as monocolored cards?

[H]

Do colorless cards count as monocolored cards?

Hmm, I don't think so, but I'd need to find a rules reference for that.

[Barook]

Do colorless cards count as monocolored cards?
My bad, I should RTFC.

[morgan_coke]

I think the fact that this far in to previews we STILL haven't seen the lands confirms they're going to be tri-color cyclers that ETB tapped. Really curious what they make the cycling cost on them.

Murmuring Bosk is probably the most pushed tri-color land they've made so far (fetchable, can etb untapped, though not in a playable way), I expect the lands from this set to challenge that.

EDIT: it's a casual deck, but Obliteration+Eerie Ultimatum would be hilarious.

[filln]

Are there 3 cards that you can search for with Emergent Ultimatum that regardless of what opponent picks any two win you the game together?

Maybe Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, and Cunning Wish?

[H]

Maybe Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, and Cunning Wish?

What do you do with Enter and Cunning Wish though without Omni to do something like cast Release the Ants over and over though?

It is easier to make game winning piles with that if you take for granted that Tooth and Nail can win on the spot. If your deck is made that way, you can get Tooth and Nail, Omni and Enter, since any pile just leads to a win.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/kaheeratheorphanguard.jpg

Cat tribal isn't really a thing, but Elementals are at least somewhat playable in Modern.

Rules question: Can you run this 3x in your MD and 1x in the SB as your companion, or are normal deck slots and companion mutual exclusive?

[H]

Rules question: Can you run this 3x in your MD and 1x in the SB as your companion, or are normal deck slots and companion mutual exclusive?

Pretty sure you can have 3x MD and 1x SB as a Companion.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

song of creation looks like an interesting card. really powerful with dredge effects and untap effects. also pretty busted with 0 drops.

1GUR

enchantment

you may play an additional land on each of your turns.

whenever you cast a spell, draw 2 cards.

at the beginning of your end step, discard your hand.

Banned in vintage within a year.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Do colorless cards count as monocolored cards?

No. A colorless card is no color, whereas a monocolored card needs to have atleast and exactly one color.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think the fact that this far in to previews we STILL haven't seen the lands confirms they're going to be tri-color cyclers that ETB tapped. Really curious what they make the cycling cost on them.

Murmuring Bosk is probably the most pushed tri-color land they've made so far (fetchable, can etb untapped, though not in a playable way), I expect the lands from this set to challenge that.

EDIT: it's a casual deck, but Obliteration+Eerie Ultimatum would be hilarious.

They might be a cycle of bosks, but I suspect they'll just be Irrigated Farmland type cards with cycling 2 or 3.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/nqwADz3.png

I mean, that is decent, but also a little bland.

[morgan_coke]

They might be a cycle of bosks, but I suspect they'll just be Irrigated Farmland type cards with cycling 2 or 3.

I don't think we'll get a fetchable component to them, my best guess is they're like the three color taplands from Tarkir but with cycling 2. That said, I would not put it past the current group at wotc to give them a one mana or alternate cycling cost. There are a LOT of really, really pushed cycling cards in this set.

[Barook]

I don't think we'll get a fetchable component to them, my best guess is they're like the three color taplands from Tarkir but with cycling 2. That said, I would not put it past the current group at wotc to give them a one mana or alternate cycling cost. There are a LOT of really, really pushed cycling cards in this set.
Why not enemy cycle duals? :really: Fits with the wedges theme and completes another cycle.

[Cire]

http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/kaheeratheorphanguard.jpg


Question might be if you play a deck without any creatures, is it reasonable to slap this guy in your sideboard for a guaranteed random creature in case you need it?

[the Thin White Duke]

Pretty sure you can have 3x MD and 1x SB as a Companion.

In this case it is not true because the card is CC>2. I thought you were on to something, but doesn't work here.
It would work with the cat beast companion, though.

[Cire]

If you fulfill multiple restrictions can you run multiple companions?

[H]

In this case it is not true because the card is CC>2. I thought you were on to something, but doesn't work here.
It would work with the cat beast companion, though.

I think you are confusing the card he was asking about, Kaheera, and Lorrus. The condition on the card he was asking is that everything be a Cat, Beast, Nightmare, Dinosaur or Elemental, which it is a Cat Beast itself.

[H]

If you fulfill multiple restrictions can you run multiple companions?

Pretty sure no, you can only reveal one card as a companion for a given game.

[ahg113]

Question might be if you play a deck without any creatures, is it reasonable to slap this guy in your sideboard for a guaranteed random creature in case you need it?

Is a solitary 3/2 vigilance creature going to win the game by itself though? Or stop one from losing?

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/mpHyOMM.png

This one seems somewhat reasonable to both use in some kind of combo and the condition for Companion it. Maybe SFM and Equipment?

[the Thin White Duke]

I think you are confusing the card he was asking about, Kaheera, and Lorrus. The condition on the card he was asking is that everything be a Cat, Beast, Nightmare, Dinosaur or Elemental, which it is a Cat Beast itself.

I was unclear. You cannot play 3 Lorrus MB and 1 SB because the CmC is >2
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU84XAbU0AAqJiR?format=jpg&name=small

However, you should be able to play Kaheera in this manner because it is a Cat and/or beast.
http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/kaheeratheorphanguard.jpg

[Cire]

Is a solitary 3/2 vigilance creature going to win the game by itself though? Or stop one from losing?

I mean, it depends - we've just never had a creature that takes up no spots in the starting 60 and is at the same time always in your hand. I can envision a control deck that devotes its entire deck to counters/creature kill and then just casts this whenever it's taken control of the game and wins at its leisure. Usually such decks try to may man-lands, etc. Now they don't have to (or they can play this along with mutavault as well).

[Cire]

RE Zidra - it's a training grounds that is always in your hand and effects non-creature permanents but costs 3 mana.

Isn't this infinite mana with Basalt Monolith and Grim Monolith? I know 4 and 5 mana 2 card infinite mana combos aren't exactly the best . . . but these are more accurately 4 and 5 mana 1 card infinite mana combos, does that make them worthwhile? (4/5 mana 1 card combo that can be broken up over 2 turns (2/(R/W)(R/W) or 3/(R/W)(R/W))

4 Petal
4 LED
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith

4 Walking Ballista
4 [Devil's Play] (so you can play LED? if there is a better win con then I would replace this with that and perhaps LED with a Mox?)

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
2 Cantrip/Control

10 Lands (to produce U/R or U/W)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Companion - Zidra

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/rEEXHFK.jpg

They finally did it! Brushwagg aggro here we come!

[Wanderlust]

Zirda list

I think the Zirda/Monolith combo might actually be Legacy applicable! Note that other Zirdas can be in the main in addition to the companion, adding further redundancy to the combo in case the first one gets countered.

In your list: since you are already running LED and Walking Ballista, why not throw in Auriok Salvagers as well and go Bomberman backup plan? Retrofitter Foundry is also nice with both Zirda/Monoliths and Bomberman.

Edit: Could also go Karn, the Great Creator and move a Monolith to the board to tutor for.

Edit 2: Another Basalt Monolith combo that could easily be slotted in is Mesmeric Orb (+Narcomoebas, Dread Return, and Thassa's Oracle in the deck to mill into).

Edit 3: Since Mesmeric Orb has no activated ability, that idea isn't going to work.

[Wanderlust]

Here's a quick take on Zirda/Bomberman monty. I've only goldfished about 5 games but it's been consistent at going off turn 2-3 with either a Pact of Negation or Cavern of Souls as protection from Force of Will and enough mana to win through Daze/Swords/Lightning Bolt/Fatal Push.


4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Boros Signet
2 Mystic Forge
4 Retrofitter Foundry
3 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Pact of Negation

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den

Sideboard:
Companion - Zirda
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Glass Casket
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista


Edit: Oops, Retrofitter Foundry and Pact of Negation aren't exactly best friends. Will have to reconsider one of those slots. Maybe just replace Pact of Negation with 1 Hope of Ghirapur and 3 Enlightened Tutor.

[morgan_coke]

Here's a quick take on Zirda/Bomberman monty. I've only goldfished about 5 games but it's been consistent at going off turn 2-3 with either a Pact of Negation or Cavern of Souls as protection from Force of Will and enough mana to win through Daze/Swords/Lightning Bolt/Fatal Push.


4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Boros Signet
2 Mystic Forge
4 Retrofitter Foundry
3 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Pact of Negation

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den

Sideboard:
Companion - Zirda
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Glass Casket
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista


Edit: Oops, Retrofitter Foundry and Pact of Negation aren't exactly best friends. Will have to reconsider one of those slots. Maybe just replace Pact of Negation with 1 Hope of Ghirapur and 3 Enlightened Tutor.

Maybe just replace the Foundry with Rocket Launcher or something?

[Barook]

Maybe just replace the Foundry with Rocket Launcher or something?
Staff of Domination, maybe? Draw your deck + infinite life, Karn for any solution you might require, win game.

[Wanderlust]

Staff of Domination, maybe? Draw your deck + infinite life, Karn for any solution you might require, win game.

Great idea! Maybe ditch Auriok Salvagers for Metalworker in that case, which allows Cavern of Souls to always name fox for Zirda rather than wishing sometimes is could produce the W for Salvagers.

Also I started a thread in N&D so we can move the conversation about this deck over there and free up the spoiler thread again: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33314-Fantastic-Mr-Fox-(Zirda-Monoliths-combo)

[Barook]

If you thought Mutate was bad, just wait until you read this:

https://twitter.com/PleasantKenobi/status/1247881499891757060

Copied creatures retain all properties of the mutated creatures. Not surprising, but still terrifying upon realisation.

[Fox]

If you thought Mutate was bad, just wait until you read this:

https://twitter.com/PleasantKenobi/status/1247881499891757060

Copied creatures retain all properties of the mutated creatures. Not surprising, but still terrifying upon realisation.

I mean they’d kind of have to right, the mutate card (the card under) isn’t sitting in any zone and isn’t targetable except through the creature it’s on.

[Wilkin]

I have a question about companion. So if you have a creature that's a companion, there's one copy in your sideboard....but can you also have copies maindeck? I tried looking that up but couldn't find an answer.

[ahg113]

What happens when one mutates on top of a vehicle? This feels similar to the man-land question.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Staff of Domination, maybe? Draw your deck + infinite life, Karn for any solution you might require, win game.


I have a question about companion. So if you have a creature that's a companion, there's one copy in your sideboard....but can you also have copies maindeck? I tried looking that up but couldn't find an answer.

It's still a magic card, so you can have up to 3 copies in your main deck of one is in your sideboard, but keep in mind: they still need to fit into the deck building constraints of you want to use the companion ability.
(Ex: the bw dream-den one? If that's in your deck then it can't also be your companion because it's cmc is 3
The rw one? You can have that one in your deck and as a companion because it has an activated ability)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What happens when one mutates on top of a vehicle? This feels similar to the man-land question.

Unless the final rules for mutate say otherwise then it should work the same way as for lands.

[Wilkin]

It's still a magic card, so you can have up to 3 copies in your main deck of one is in your sideboard, but keep in mind: they still need to fit into the deck building constraints of you want to use the companion ability.
(Ex: the bw dream-den one? If that's in your deck then it can't also be your companion because it's cmc is 3
The rw one? You can have that one in your deck and as a companion because it has an activated ability)

Ah, ok. I like the red/white one for a Monolith / Walking Ballista deck. But the deck does suffer in that you can't run typical mud disruption main like Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem etc.

[Cire]

Ah, ok. I like the red/white one for a Monolith / Walking Ballista deck. But the deck does suffer in that you can't run typical mud disruption main like Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem etc.

The Zidra/Monolith combo goes off consistently turn 2/3, if it could also run the Mud distruption suite it would be ridiculous.

[morgan_coke]

https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uploads/a88fd2c4-9234-4dca-8ed0-23414cf317fc/Unpredictable%20Cyclone%20[IKO].png

Alert! Alert! Fully Legacy playable cycling combo card!

Well, maybe. It's in the right color to get ritualed out fast, but then you're either running a bunch of tutors and one cycling creature+Emrakul, or just a bunch of big Yidaro-type cycling dudes to pop out with this. Another option involves backup combos using Fluctuator/Zenith Blast/Concordia Crossroads to get out a bunch of guys and then haste kill someone. There's a lot of options here. You can also use Neutralize to cycle out counterspells if that's needed. Tons of possibilities here.

The fact that you can specifically cycle into either instants or sorceries or enchantments and not just creatures is what really puts this over the top I think.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/y5t38caeftr41.jpg

Here's some gas. Just mix with Elves, mana artifacts (Astrolabe anyone) or the such!

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/y5t38caeftr41.jpg

Here's some gas. Just mix with Elves, mana artifacts (Astrolabe anyone) or the such!

T1: Mox Diamond, dude
T2: Basalt Monolith, hard-cast Emrakul

[H]

Because last set :u::g: didn't get anything too busted, :laugh:

[BenBleiweiss]

T1: Mox Diamond, dude
T2: Basalt Monolith, hard-cast Emrakul

T1: Mox Diamond, Kinnan
T2: Basalt Monolith, arbitrarily infinite Walking Ballista.

[ReAnimator]

This thing will probably be busted with Moxes in Vintage.

[H]

This thing will probably be busted with Moxes in Vintage.

And how. BUG decks were already pretty good there, as it was.

[Barook]

And how. BUG decks were already pretty good there, as it was.
Imagine if DRS was still legal with this.

This card is going to do some dumb shit. And it's GSZable.

[FTW]

https://images1.mtggoldfish.com/uploads/a88fd2c4-9234-4dca-8ed0-23414cf317fc/Unpredictable%20Cyclone%20[IKO].png

Alert! Alert! Fully Legacy playable cycling combo card!

Well, maybe. It's in the right color to get ritualed out fast, but then you're either running a bunch of tutors and one cycling creature+Emrakul, or just a bunch of big Yidaro-type cycling dudes to pop out with this. Another option involves backup combos using Fluctuator/Zenith Blast/Concordia Crossroads to get out a bunch of guys and then haste kill someone. There's a lot of options here. You can also use Neutralize to cycle out counterspells if that's needed. Tons of possibilities here.

The fact that you can specifically cycle into either instants or sorceries or enchantments and not just creatures is what really puts this over the top I think.

The question is if it's any better than the Possibility Storm Adventure deck that already exists.

This also pays 3RR for an enchantment that lets other cards in your hand auto-tutor for a wincon. It's a very similar mechanic. That deck can squeeze in more "tutors" (Adventure creatures don't count as sorceries when revealing cards but do on the stack), whereas this deck needs to get creative in order to cast something specific like Emrakul.

[H]

Imagine if DRS was still legal with this.

This card is going to do some dumb shit. And it's GSZable.

Guess where DRS is still legal though (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-4c-walkers-160278) and already seeing play (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-bug-midrange-126666)? I am guessing this thing will only help there.

[FTW]

Imagine if DRS was still legal with this.

This card is going to do some dumb shit. And it's GSZable.

It's a good thing Elves doesn't run GSZ to grab a non-Elf creature.

[H]

It's a good thing Elves doesn't run GSZ to grab a non-Elf creature.

The only "good news" is that they can't Symbiote this thing to protect it. But Elves wasn't too bad lately, I think at least 2 were in the top 8 of the last Challenge, already in UG for Oko, of course.

[Barook]

Guess where DRS is still legal though (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-4c-walkers-160278) and already seeing play (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-bug-midrange-126666)? I am guessing this thing will only help there.
It's legal in Vintage, obviously. I was talking about Legacy. Maybe I should have been more clear.


The only "good news" is that they can't Symbiote this thing to protect it. But Elves wasn't too bad lately, I think at least 2 were in the top 8 of the last Challenge, already in UG for Oko, of course.
This + Oko gives lots of incentive to go UG. I wonder how relevant the 7 mana ability going to be and how often it's going to dig up a Craterhoof.

[H]

It's legal in Vintage, obviously. I was talking about Legacy. Maybe I should have been more clear.

I know, I was just continuing the line of thought from ReAnimator.


This + Oko gives lots of incentive to go UG. I wonder how relevant the 7 mana ability going to be and how often it's going to dig up a Craterhoof.

Well, with Heritage Druid making 4, 7 doesn't seem too much really.

EDIT: Actually, I don't think this actually does much with Heritage, since it usually isn't tapping itself. Still, pretty decent card, I think.

[Barook]

I know, I was just continuing the line of thought from ReAnimator.



Well, with Heritage Druid making 4, 7 doesn't seem too much really.

EDIT: Actually, I don't think this actually does much with Heritage, since it usually isn't tapping itself. Still, pretty decent card, I think.
It's a massive upgrade for Birchlore, going from half a mana/elf to one mana/elf. Llanowar Elves also gets doubled. Heritage Druid only gets 33% more mana/elf instead of 100%.

[FTW]

EDIT: Actually, I don't think this actually does much with Heritage, since it usually isn't tapping itself. Still, pretty decent card, I think.

It should trigger 3 times every time you use Heritage Druid (it says "Whenever you tap a nonland permanent for mana" not "Whenever you tap a nonland permanent to activate its own mana ability"). But because "that permanent produced" no mana, would it produce 0 mana or 1 mana of no type (generic)?

[H]

It's a massive upgrade for Birchlore, going from half a mana/elf to one mana/elf. Llanowar Elves also gets doubled. Heritage Druid only gets 33% more mana/elf instead of 100%.

Right, but even Birchlore Rangers and Heritage Druid only make extra mana when they tap themselves, not when, say, you tap two Nettle Sentinels and a rando other elf (or two Nettles in the case of Birchlore), because of how Kinnan is worded.

[H]

It should trigger 3 times every time you use Heritage Druid (it says "Whenever you tap a nonland permanent for mana" not "Whenever you tap a nonland permanent to activate its own mana ability"). But because "that permanent produced" no mana, would it produce 0 mana or 1 mana of no type (generic)?

Hmm, is that how it would work? Genuinely confused now, honestly.

[Glass House]

106.12. To “tap [a permanent] for mana” is to activate a mana ability of that permanent that includes the {T} symbol in its activation cost.

From my understanding, Kinnan does not interact with Heritage nor Birchlore.

[Kage]

It should trigger 3 times every time you use Heritage Druid (it says "Whenever you tap a nonland permanent for mana" not "Whenever you tap a nonland permanent to activate its own mana ability"). But because "that permanent produced" no mana, would it produce 0 mana or 1 mana of no type (generic)?

I don't think that works. You tap the other dudes to activate Heritage Druid's ability, they do not produce mana themselves.

[FTW]

I don't think that works. You tap the other dudes to activate Heritage Druid's ability, they do not produce mana themselves.

It's not clear that "tap a permanent for mana" means to tap it for its own mana ability, at least from English grammar alone. You are tapping it to activate an ability that produces mana.

But Glass House cleared it up. Rule 106.12 defines it explicitly for Magic.

[H]

106.12. To “tap [a permanent] for mana” is to activate a mana ability of that permanent that includes the {T} symbol in its activation cost.

From my understanding, Kinnan does not interact with Heritage nor Birchlore.

Ah, I think that is the likely answer there then.

[Barook]

https://twitter.com/Griselpuff/status/1248319611554103297

Worth pointing out that Kinnan works with Astrolabe. How about Snow Bant with Astrolabe and Noble Hierarch for some hilarious plays?

[FTW]

Yeah Bleweiss put that in his spoiler.

It's cute incidental value, at the cost of a card. Does UGx control need more mana or does it need more card advantage? I guess the mana speeds up Uro.

[H]

Yeah Bleweiss put that in his spoiler.

It's cute incidental value, at the cost of a card. Does UGx control need more mana or does it need more card advantage? I guess the mana speeds up Uro.

Well, maybe if you are already running GSZ and Astrolabe, you throw one in for just the "added" value of making a bunch of mana from time to time. If you don't have GSZ, it might be less worth it, since you'd see it relatively less often along with the Astrolabes (presuming you don't run 4x, which seems like overkill most probably).

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/3fvgwfgh3vr41.png

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/3fvgwfgh3vr41.png

w/r/b
g/u/b
r/w/u
b/w/g
u/r/g

[H]

Wow, those are actually somewhat interesting. Not sure how good, but certainly interesting in being detachable tri-lands. I feel like there must be something one could do with these that is at least a relatively budget tier 2 sort of thing.

[morgan_coke]

w/r/b
g/u/b
r/w/u
b/w/g
u/r/g

Called it. Cycling should have been 2 tho. Oh shit, they're fetchable. Hmm. Tough call, but probably still 2.

[H]

Called it. Cycling should have been 2 tho. Oh shit, they're fetchable. Hmm. Tough call, but probably still 2.

If they did have them Cycle for 2, they kill any real reason to complete the cycle of fetchable duals that Cycle for 2 from Amonkhet though.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I suppose if sheltered ticket can find a home as a one of so can this, I guess.

[Fox]

I suppose if sheltered ticket can find a home as a one of so can this, I guess.

All you need is a grindy/slower probably-2c deck that wants to spam REB back at 4c jammy jams.

The design in these is a little disturbing; like they just shut the door on any design space for future 3c taplands. Why do all 3 types need to be Fetchable?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

All you need is a grindy/slower probably-2c deck that wants to spam REB back at 4c jammy jams.

The design in these is a little disturbing; like they just shut the door on any design space for future 3c taplands. Why do all 3 types need to be Fetchable?

Can't trample on murmuring bosk's toes, er, roots

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Also the name triome is a dumb popsicle stick joke because the word biome doesn't mean two speciazed nouns, it means bio, life, and one, meaning a noun.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/bondersenclavep.jpg

Can this slot into Eldrazi Stompy? Might also be a worthy target for KotR in grindy games, since it's most likely going to be 4+ power anyway.

[bruizar]

Here's my prediction: This card is among the top 3 best cards in the set, perhaps even the best:
https://media.mtgsalvation.com/avatars/276/137/637220407727910876.png

Good for any blue deck that can fetch a Dryad Arbor or runs Young Pyromancer.

[Final Fortune]

Wow, those are actually somewhat interesting. Not sure how good, but certainly interesting in being detachable tri-lands. I feel like there must be something one could do with these that is at least a relatively budget tier 2 sort of thing.

These are interesting for aggro- control, just one of them could support Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl while having an Island for Daze.

[Watersaw]

These are interesting for aggro- control, just one of them could support Kird Ape or Wild Nacatl while having an Island for Daze.

ETB tapped means you need a second land. Can this theoretical 4c aggro deck manage that? Is that even good when Delver exists?

[aedemiel]

Here's my prediction: This card is among the top 3 best cards in the set, perhaps even the best.

This indeed has the potential to be really good. 2/3 of an Ancestral Recall with minimal restriction.

[bruizar]

This indeed has the potential to be really good. 2/3 of an Ancestral Recall with minimal restriction.

Even in standard i can see this get played a lot given cards like Lovestruck Beast and Forbidden Friendship

[the Thin White Duke]

https://i.imgur.com/mpHyOMM.png

This one seems somewhat reasonable to both use in some kind of combo and the condition for Companion it. Maybe SFM and Equipment?

This works with Cycling, right? Is this better than Fluctuator?

[Cire]

This works with Cycling, right? Is this better than Fluctuator?

IDK if it works, but it can't reduce the cost to zero so can't work in a Fluctuator deck.

[the Thin White Duke]

IDK if it works, but it can't reduce the cost to zero so can't work in a Fluctuator deck.

Right, reading fail.
That still won't stop me from building another Slide deck.

[morgan_coke]

Right, reading fail.
That still won't stop me from building another Slide deck.

I've got a thread up in new and development for a red/white slide deck with a fast clock, minor disruption, and combo outs.

[Final Fortune]

ETB tapped means you need a second land. Can this theoretical 4c aggro deck manage that? Is that even good when Delver exists?

I imagine so, there were RUG decks than ran Taiga and Plataeu to T2 power up Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl before, no need for four colours. I'm not saying it''s great or anything, but it's definately interesting.

[FTW]

Why does your Wild Nacatl need specific colors while mine fixes colors? Seems bad.

[BirdsOfParadise]

How are you all breaking Song of Creation in Legacy? I’m goldfishing it in a deck with Orcish Lumberjack and Titania because I like the idea of being able to combo and play your deck on turn 3 or win through combat with endless 5/3 tokens. I’m sure it’s not the best use of Song of Creation but it calls to me.

The cards I’m using are:

Orcish Lumberjack
Exploration
Lotus Cobra
GSZ
Song of Creation
Mox Diamond (with Song, draw 2 and *then* decide whether to pitch a land)
Crop Rotation
Life from the Loam
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Korvold, Fae-Cursed King
Toolbox for Crop Rotation (incl. 1x Tireless Tracker)
Toolbox for GSZ
1x Need for Speed (so you win on the same turn you draw your deck)

It’s fun to combo out because you often get to draw the deck and win with huge hasty creatures, but even if the combo fizzles out, you can pass the turn with a crazy board position and various forms of permanent-based disruption active (Wasteland, Bojuka Bog, Leovold, Scooze) to offset the loss of your hand. And starting your next turn with an empty hand is OK because you have Clue tokens in play and/or Loam in your GY. That is, it’s worse than storm combo but more exciting than storm combo, and an actual advantage in comparison to storm combo is that you can combo incompletely and still win — it’s more of a snowball than a one-shot combo.

[FTW]

How are you all breaking Song of Creation in Legacy? I’m goldfishing it in a deck with Orcish Lumberjack and Titania because I like the idea of being able to combo and play your deck on turn 3 or win through combat with endless 5/3 tokens. I’m sure it’s not the best use of Song of Creation but it calls to me.

I posted in the thread on the New & Developmental section. It goldfishes on turn 1-2 casting 20 copies of Tendrils of Agony, or sometimes you "fizzle" and have to make 14 Goblin tokens or go off again next turn.

Playing through hate will be challenging, but it steamrolls anything without disruption.

[Mr. Safety]

I posted in the thread on the New & Developmental section. It goldfishes on turn 1-2 casting 20 copies of Tendrils of Agony, or sometimes you "fizzle" and have to make 14 Goblin tokens or go off again next turn.

Playing through hate will be challenging, but it steamrolls anything without disruption.

Force of Will and Veil of Summer are both in there right? Seems like it should be pretty decent.

[ahg113]

For the heck of it, since the full set is spoiled now, excluding the Kaiju cards, what do folks think the risers and fallers will be price wise (with a Legacy impact).

Lurrus is at ~$7.50 now, I could see it rising, but since I like it, it's probably bad, and therefore will become cheaper. General opinions about any/other cards?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

For the heck of it, since the full set is spoiled now, excluding the Kaiju cards, what do folks think the risers and fallers will be price wise (with a Legacy impact).

Lurrus is at ~$7.50 now, I could see it rising, but since I like it, it's probably bad, and therefore will become cheaper. General opinions about any/other cards?
Monday is supposed to be a ban day so we'll find out tomorrow.

[raudo]

Am I just lazy or otherwise confused but I dont understand the Zirda combo lists here.
Zirda says that it cant target mana abilities so what are those Basalt and Grim Monolith reliable combo decks?

[PirateKing]

Am I just lazy or otherwise confused but I dont understand the Zirda combo lists here.
Zirda says that it cant target mana abilities so what are those Basalt and Grim Monolith reliable combo decks?

Tapping to add 3 to you mana pool is a mana ability, and Zirda has no cost reduction effects there, it's still "Tap: Add :3:."
Untapping it is not a mana ability.

[FTW]

Am I just lazy or otherwise confused but I dont understand the Zirda combo lists here.
Zirda says that it cant target mana abilities so what are those Basalt and Grim Monolith reliable combo decks?

Monolith has 2 abilities:
1) T: Add 3
2) 3: Untap (or 4: Untap)

The first one is a mana ability. The second isn't. Reducing the cost of the 2nd one by 2 lets you tap and untap Monolith over and over to make infinite colorless mana.

Power Artifact has enabled the same combo for a while. That combo sees play in Commander sometimes. It wasn't Legacy viable because you need 3 pieces: Monolith + Power Artifact + some mana sink that wins the game when you have infinite mana.

The real perk with Zirda is it's a Power Artifact you can cast from the Companion Zone, with minimal deckbuilding constraints. Zirda's a free card. That reduces it to a 2-card combo (Monolith + win con), which is Legacy viable. The recent printing of Karn, the Great Creator also helps finding both Monolith and a wincon.

Also Zirda doesn't target Monolith, preventing 2-for-1s from widely-played Abrupt Decay that you can get with Power Artifact.

[raudo]

Oh I see. Not sure I like this companion thing at all..

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oh I see. Not sure I like this companion thing at all..

Most of them are prohibitively expensive, or too weak to really build around. This one is notable because not only does it combo but it also can be played in the deck you're using it for. Unlike Lurrus (the CMC 2-or-less one) which is also powerful and enables combos, but you only get to run the one copy, so if they counter/path it it's over.

EDIT: Except for storm which it's basically a free +2 on any storm count, turning Tendrils into 8drils.

[H]

Monday is supposed to be a ban day so we'll find out tomorrow.

Just want to note that while I think there is supposed to be an announcement today, I think it was already stated that it is only about Lutri in Brawl.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Just want to note that while I think there is supposed to be an announcement today, I think it was already stated that it is only about Lutri in Brawl.

The otter is getting axed too I thought because in EDH it's an 8th card for all UR players?
EDIT: Lutri is the Otter's name, oops.

[H]

The otter is getting axed too I thought because in EDH it's an 8th card for all UR players?
EDIT: Lutri is the Otter's name, oops.

Yeah, Sheldon and company already banned the card in EDH before it was even announced, on the reveal stream it was shown and immediately noted that it was banned in Commander already.

[Barook]

Aside from all the obviously broken combo stuff Ikoria has brought us, one thing caught my eye yesterday after seeing it doing some really dumb shit with tokens: Winota, Joiner of Forces

Sure, it was only Standard, but Legacy has some quality token producers as well, like Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor, that synergize perfectly with it. Maybe there are some applications in midrange decks.

Bonus points for Elks triggering it, too. :tongue:

[morgan_coke]

Aside from all the obviously broken combo stuff Ikoria has brought us, one thing caught my eye yesterday after seeing it doing some really dumb shit with tokens: Winota, Joiner of Forces

Sure, it was only Standard, but Legacy has some quality token producers as well, like Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor, that synergize perfectly with it. Maybe there are some applications in midrange decks.

Bonus points for Elks triggering it, too. :tongue:

At least right now the "non-Human" clauses on all those cards work on any not-human creature type, so like, "human rogue"? Works.

Also, just in general, fuck the goddamned companions. There are already three annoying as fuck decks in standard running them. It's impossible to play any kind of non-linear gameplan right now because there are at least a dozen axes of attack people can take, and the hate/answers for all of them is either absurdly slow or incredibly narrow.

[Tylert]

At least right now the "non-Human" clauses on all those cards work on any not-human creature type, so like, "human rogue"? Works.



A human rogue is a human... so no it doesn't work.
I think this card requires to mix things and will end up wiffing a lot.

[Barook]

A human rogue is a human... so no it doesn't work.
I think this card requires to mix things and will end up wiffing a lot.
You can always run token-producing cards like Pyromancer or Monastery Monk. Even manlands like Factory work. Standard, for example, combines her with Chandra, Acolyte of Flame to generate massive value.

[Tylert]

You can always run token-producing cars like Pyromancer or Monastery Monk. Even manlands like Factory work. Standard, for example, combines her with Chandra, Acolyte of Flame to generate massive value.

that works indeed :)

[ahg113]

So what humans are folks hoping to grab with winota anyhow? And without top, how is the top of the deck going to reliably contain a worthwhile target? A lot of humans need a bit of help before they turn sideways for profit. Hero of Bladehold/Oxid Ridge may be the exceptions, or huntmaster. This does not seem to be a Bob enhancer, nor a spot to put Mom on the battlefield.

[Barook]

Seeing how Lurrus plays out in Vintage in Workshop decks, I wonder if it can work for a Legacy variant of Steelball Stompy.

Question is: Is it better than Emry when run as a companion? Or could you play both in the MD (no companion) for ridiculous amounts of card advantage?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Seeing how Lurrus plays out in Vintage in Workshop decks, I wonder if it can work for a Legacy variant of Steelball Stompy.

Question is: Is it better than Emry when run as a companion? Or could you play both in the MD (no companion) for ridiculous amounts of card advantage?

I just realized that in vintage restricting a companion does nothing, so if one breaks the format for real they can't do anything about it
(Well, they can, but not through the normal means)

[Barook]

I just realized that in vintage restricting a companion does nothing, so if one breaks the format for real they can't do anything about it
(Well, they can, but not through the normal means)
A truly wonderful mechanic, right?

[Wrath of Pie]

A truly wonderful mechanic, right?
So wonderful that they already had to ban one on Magic Online (https://twitter.com/MagicOnline/status/1251665091478446080) in every competitive format because of bugs.

[Barook]

So wonderful that they already had to ban one on Magic Online (https://twitter.com/MagicOnline/status/1251665091478446080) in every competitive format because of bugs.
Given how poorly programmed MTGO is, not surprising. But it isn't the only one.

How Lurrus interacts with X spells is fucking stupid. What other cards limit you to have the total CMC to be less than or equal :2: ? E.g. you can cast a Ballista for X=:2:, but not for X=:4:. That's something MTGO is currently ignoring.

https://twitter.com/Griselpuff/status/1251698885543759872

Who designs this shit? (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=479746)


For spells with X in their mana costs, use the value chosen for X to determine the spell’s converted mana cost. For example, if a permanent spell costs X:w:, you could cast it with X as 1 but not as 2.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Given how poorly programmed MTGO is, not surprising. But it isn't the only one.

How Lurrus interacts with X spells is fucking stupid. What other cards limit you to have the total CMC to be less than or equal :2: ? E.g. you can cast a Ballista for X=:2:, but not for X=:4:. That's something MTGO is currently ignoring.

https://twitter.com/Griselpuff/status/1251698885543759872

Who designs this shit? (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=479746)

Fires of invention?

[Wrath of Pie]

Given how poorly programmed MTGO is, not surprising. But it isn't the only one.

How Lurrus interacts with X spells is fucking stupid. What other cards limit you to have the total CMC to be less than or equal :2: ? E.g. you can cast a Ballista for X=:2:, but not for X=:4:. That's something MTGO is currently ignoring.

Apparently, MTG Arena (https://twitter.com/Lantariel/status/1251833764596125697) does the same thing.

[Megadeus]

Given how poorly programmed MTGO is, not surprising. But it isn't the only one.

How Lurrus interacts with X spells is fucking stupid. What other cards limit you to have the total CMC to be less than or equal :2: ? E.g. you can cast a Ballista for X=:2:, but not for X=:4:. That's something MTGO is currently ignoring.

https://twitter.com/Griselpuff/status/1251698885543759872

Who designs this shit? (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=479746)

Just watched Nassif get beaten by opponent making Ballista for 3 multiple times in a game. God if they ban another companion I'll lol

[Cire]

From the legacy challenge results: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/g4u7ay/mtgo_legacy_challenge_4192020/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/g4xg91/mtgo_legacy_challenge_4202020/, seems like Lurrus, Zidra, Gyruda, Yorion AND EVEN Jegantha are playable in legacy. The great majority of decks are now running Companions. Even accounting for Love of New things they look disproportionately played (the first three at least but we'll see what happens with the latter two).

[bruizar]

From the legacy challenge results: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/g4u7ay/mtgo_legacy_challenge_4192020/ and https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/g4xg91/mtgo_legacy_challenge_4202020/, seems like Lurrus, Zidra, Gyruda, Yorion AND EVEN Jegantha are playable in legacy. The great majority of decks are now running Companions. Even accounting for Love of New things they look disproportionately played (the first three at least but we'll see what happens with the latter two).

Although I had already come to the same conclusion I'm curious about the lists. The links are broken here for some reason. Could you share in this thread?


They kind of **** magic in the *** with companion mechanic. I really wonder how they will get back from every-format-is-commander-now. I like the novelty, but that will get stale rather quick imo. Especially for Vintage.. How do they get out of that hole if vintage is broken?

[Cire]

Although I had already come to the same conclusion I'm curious about the lists. The links are broken here for some reason. Could you share in this thread?


They kind of **** magic in the *** with companion mechanic. I really wonder how they will get back from every-format-is-commander-now. I like the novelty, but that will get stale rather quick imo. Especially for Vintage.. How do they get out of that hole if vintage is broken?

Let me know if these links work: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-04-19 and https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-04-20

The Lurrus Decks are all over the place. It's jammed into Delver, Lands, Dreadnaught and Doomsday.
Zidra is exclusively Bomberman at the moment.
Gyruda is its own deck.
Yorion is played in 4 color 80 card Snow-Ko Miracles.

Jegantha was played in this lands deck (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-04-20#kelmasterp_th_place), which seemed to use it just as a bonus 5/5 ass beater.

[Megadeus]

Let me know if these links work: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-04-19 and https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-04-20

The Lurrus Decks are all over the place. It's jammed into Delver, Lands, Dreadnaught and Doomsday.
Zidra is exclusively Bomberman at the moment.
Gyruda is its own deck.
Yorion is played in 4 color 80 card Snow-Ko Miracles.

Jegantha was played in this lands deck (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-04-20#kelmasterp_th_place), which seemed to use it just as a bonus 5/5 ass beater.

In Painter Discard we've been discussing Jegantha just to have a 5/5 in hand at all times.

[Cire]

In Painter Discard we've been discussing Jegantha just to have a 5/5 in hand at all times.

There's lots of talk about Kaheera, the Orphanguard being a 3/2 in All Spell decks, but seemed people missed out initially on Jegantha's restriction being pretty easy and is a five mana 5/5. I've also seen discussion on Umori, the Collector being slotted into artifact decks. Again not for any real broken interaction, just as a constant beater that's always in hand.

[bruizar]

@Cire: Thanks those links work! I'm surprised that the affinity list has a sideboard lurrus but not The Ozolith

@Megadeus
I was thinking of jamming Jegantha with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim in Turbo Eldrazi and Najeela, the Blade-blossom in Dragon Stompy or putting them both together alongside a singleton Cascading Cataracts.

[Megadeus]

@Cire: Thanks those links work! I'm surprised that the affinity list has a sideboard lurrus but not The Ozolith

@Megadeus
I was thinking of jamming Jegantha with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim in Turbo Eldrazi and Najeela, the Blade-blossom in Dragon Stompy or putting them both together alongside a singleton Cascading Cataracts.

Yeah I was debating Golos as well. Seems like not the worst thing. Golos if nothing else finds you an Eye or Wasteland.

[Barook]

Jegantha was played in this lands deck (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-04-20#kelmasterp_th_place), which seemed to use it just as a bonus 5/5 ass beater.
At no other opportunity cost other than using a SB slot, there's effectively zero downside in using it, especially game 1.


@Megadeus
I was thinking of jamming Jegantha with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim in Turbo Eldrazi and Najeela, the Blade-blossom in Dragon Stompy or putting them both together alongside a singleton Cascading Cataracts.
So if you can give Jegantha vigilance, it can swing and then go infinite attack phases with Najeela? Are there any reasonable cards that give vigilance and don't suck? Batterskull is too expensive to get fancy.

Edit: Nevermind, Maze of Ith doesn't untap itself, I'm stupid.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

At no other opportunity cost other than using a SB slot, there's effectively zero downside in using it, especially game 1.


So if you can give Jegantha vigilance, it can swing and then go infinite attack phases with Najeela? Are there any reasonable cards that give vigilance and don't suck? Batterskull is too expensive to get fancy.

Edit: Nevermind, Maze of Ith doesn't untap itself, I'm stupid.

The Ikoria Lord Companion gives it vigilance because it is an elemental. You'll just have to mainboard it.

[ahg113]

I has sad, before the update B&R announcement, Lurrus was approx $7-8, now it's about $24. I hope the card gets banned out of spite now.

[Cire]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/topical-blend-did-you-hear-one-about-2015-12-07-0

Somehow this was written in 2015 . . .

"Anyway, there was a lot of pressure on Maro to deliver an exciting design, so he decided to push the boundaries. He made a new mechanic that allowed you to choose to start with the card in your opening hand. . . . Early the next morning, Maro awoke to see a message written in lipstick on the mirror, reversed so he could easily read it. It read: 'DECK VARIANCE IS THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME AND UNDERCUTTING IT WITH THIS MECHANIC HAS LED TO THE MOST UNFUN PLAYTEST GAMES WE HAVE EVER PLAYED. IF THIS IS THE FUTURE OF MAGIC DESIGN, WE WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.' The interns were gone and haven't ever been seen since. Maro took the new mechanic out of the file and never talked about it again."

And then five years later here we are . . .

[H]

And then five years later here we are . . .

I can't imagine what would have changed their minds.

Meanwhile at Hasbro HQ:
https://i.imgur.com/EKcocbU.gif

[Barook]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/topical-blend-did-you-hear-one-about-2015-12-07-0

Somehow this was written in 2015 . . .

"Anyway, there was a lot of pressure on Maro to deliver an exciting design, so he decided to push the boundaries. He made a new mechanic that allowed you to choose to start with the card in your opening hand. . . . Early the next morning, Maro awoke to see a message written in lipstick on the mirror, reversed so he could easily read it. It read: 'DECK VARIANCE IS THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME AND UNDERCUTTING IT WITH THIS MECHANIC HAS LED TO THE MOST UNFUN PLAYTEST GAMES WE HAVE EVER PLAYED. IF THIS IS THE FUTURE OF MAGIC DESIGN, WE WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.' The interns were gone and haven't ever been seen since. Maro took the new mechanic out of the file and never talked about it again."

And then five years later here we are . . .
What happened to the playtest team? Results were promising with Dominaria - but then we got that whole WAR walker clusterfuck and it all went downhill from there.

[Wrath of Pie]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/topical-blend-did-you-hear-one-about-2015-12-07-0

Somehow this was written in 2015 . . .

"Anyway, there was a lot of pressure on Maro to deliver an exciting design, so he decided to push the boundaries. He made a new mechanic that allowed you to choose to start with the card in your opening hand. . . . Early the next morning, Maro awoke to see a message written in lipstick on the mirror, reversed so he could easily read it. It read: 'DECK VARIANCE IS THE LIFEBLOOD OF THE GAME AND UNDERCUTTING IT WITH THIS MECHANIC HAS LED TO THE MOST UNFUN PLAYTEST GAMES WE HAVE EVER PLAYED. IF THIS IS THE FUTURE OF MAGIC DESIGN, WE WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.' The interns were gone and haven't ever been seen since. Maro took the new mechanic out of the file and never talked about it again."

And then five years later here we are . . .

Pizza boxes are now tier 2 messaging it seems. Guess lipstick on a mirror is the new top-tier messaging tool.

[Amon Amarth]

What happened to the playtest team? Results were promising with Dominaria - but then we got that whole WAR walker clusterfuck and it all went downhill from there.

I even liked some of the stuff going on in Ixalan, like the introduction of the Dinosaur creature type was handled pretty well, despite the fact that it was an underpowered set. Now everything is on fire.

[Barook]

It's kinda refreshing to see Seals played again due to Lurrus.

Also, wouldn't it be correct in most cases to run Lotus Petal in tandem with Lurrus to get it out faster? You WILL always have Lurrus and it's not like card disadvantage matters that much with it.

[Humphrey]

From what we've seen of Companion so far, I'm guessing they're all competitively unplayable and intended solely for kitchen table players. Which I'm 100% fine with. The last thing MTG needs to repeat the Genn/Baku debacle from Hearthstone.

Mutate looks like the sets draft mechanic that is going to have a max of two-five cards playable in standard, if that.


Loooool

[Cire]

@Cire: Thanks those links work! I'm surprised that the affinity list has a sideboard lurrus but not The Ozolith

@Megadeus
I was thinking of jamming Jegantha with Golos, Tireless Pilgrim in Turbo Eldrazi and Najeela, the Blade-blossom in Dragon Stompy or putting them both together alongside a singleton Cascading Cataracts.

Really dumb combo I came up with:

Sisay + Jegantha
Sisay is a 4/4 - tap Jegantha --> Deveri, untap Jegantha
Sisay is a 6/6 - tap Jegantha --> Angrath, the Flame-Chained, use its -3 on Jegantha, untap Jegantha
Sisay is a 7/7 - tap Jegantha --> Gideon, Martial Paragon. Use + ability, untap Jegantha (Sisay is a 8/8, Jegantha is a 6/6, Deveri is a 3/4)
Sisay is a 8/8 - tap Jegantha --> Gideon, Martial Paragon, sac "old" Gideon. Use + ability, untap Jegantha (Sisay is a 9/9, Jegantha is a 7/7, Deveri is a 4/5)
Sisay is a 9/9 - tap Jegantha --> Maelstrom Wanderer. Attack for 27

It’s not good but it is a “1” card combo for 8. Main issue is that you have to wait a turn after jegantha comes out due to lack of haste. If you do start running cards to give jegentha it becomes a 2 card 9 mana combo but one you can split over 2 or 3 turns.

I’m sure there’s even more effective ways to do this?