Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)

[Wanderlust]

FOX TOO FANTASTIC: Banned May 18th, 2020.

https://i.ibb.co/5khBxHL/1179626-2.jpg

The name Fantastic Mr. Fox is a reference to the 2009 Wes Anderson film of the same name. Zirda, the Dawnwaker, the lynchpin of this archetype, is a fox, after all, and is often referred to in this thread as Mr. Fox.


https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=479753&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=12626&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=297&type=card

1. Introduction

Zirda plus either Basalt Monolith or Grim Monolith provides infinite colorless mana, since Zirda on the battlefield means our monoliths tap for more mana than they cost to untap themselves. To actually win, however, still requires another card. Colorless mana-sink win conditions can include cards such as Walking Ballista, Retrofitter Foundry, Magma Mine, Staff of Domination, and Karn, the Great Creator (to tutor for any of the aforementioned cards, or Mycosynth Lattice as a back-up). Cards such as Mystic Forge or Experimental Frenzy can also serve as inconsistent mana sinks under the combo when necessary, in addition to serving as backup card-advantage/dig engines in longer games.

Importantly, the combo is often resilient in the face of creature removal: if our opponent tries to kill/bounce Zirda in response to us untapping a monolith, if we have enough mana available, we can just stack untap triggers on top of their removal and continue to make infinite mana.

There are many shells for this combo, and it's likely more than one is competitively viable. Current shells under development in this thread (see "Theorycrafting" below for lists) include at least the following:
1. Turbo Fox Boom
2. Xerox (XerFox)
3. Emry
4. Bomberman Hybrid


2. Tournament Finishes

There have already been 5-0 MTGO Legacy League finishes featuring the Zirda combo:
4/18/20 Zirda/Bomberman Hybrid #1 (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-04-18#flow_true_-)
4/18/20 Zirda/Bomberman Hybrid #2 (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-04-18#mei_-)
4/18/20 Zirda/Emry 3-color Pile (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-04-18#pokemoki_-)
4/30/20 Xerfox (Snowko) (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-super-qualifier-2020-05-01#cooluser_nd_place)

3. Theorycrafting

Shell 1: Turbo Fox Boom
(Named by Tobitzki, in honor, I assume, of the flavor text of Magma Mine)
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2907908#paper

These lists look to win as fast as possible while still making room for a tiny bit of protection.


Wanderlust's suggested Mono-R Turbo Fox Boom (updated 4/19/20)
This list takes advantage of the most explosive acceleration in Zirda's colors by adding Simian Spirit Guide and Seething Song to a traditional suite of artifact acceleration.

Combo:
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith

Kill:
2 Magma Mine
2 Walking Ballista
4 Retrofitter Foundry

Kill/tutor/alternate win:
4 Karn, the Great Creator

Backup engine:
2 Mystic Forge

Protection:
4 Hope of Ghirapur

Protection/mana:
4 Cavern of Souls

Tutor/mana:
1 Inventors' Fair

Mana:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Mountain
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep

Sideboard:
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Defense Grid
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Walking Ballista
2 Abrade
2 Chandra, Awakened Inferno
2 Pyroblast
1 Mindbreak Trap

Tips, tricks, and other thoughts:
-In a pinch, Retrofitter Foundry can cheaply turn Hope of Ghirapur into a 4/4 construct.
-Retrofitter Foundry, especially in multiples, can actually grind fairly well if the game goes long in the face of disruption.
-Why Magma Mine? It's easier to cast than Walking Ballista prior to sacrificing LED if you need to cast Zirda that way, and it helps turn on Mox Opal early, plus it doesn't die to creature removal when deployed early for either reason.
-Sometimes it's correct to sideboard out a Magma Mine if we expect our opponent to perhaps name Walking Ballista with Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker so that we can still win on the spot off of a Karn -2.

Here's another possible direction:

Tobitzki's WB Wishclaw list 4/9/20

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Cavern of Souls
1x Inventors' Fair

4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Scrubland

1x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal

4x Grim Monolith
3x Basalt Monolith
4x Magma Mine
3x Walking Ballista
2x Zirda, the Dawnwaker

4x Wishclaw Talisman
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Mishra's Bauble

4x Hope of Ghirapur
1x Orim's Chant


Shell 2: Xerox (or "XerFox" as FTW calls it :tongue:)

Start with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will and flesh out the rest from there, as Cire proposed over in the spoiler thread:




4 Petal
4 LED
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith

4 Walking Ballista
4 [Devil's Play] (so you can play LED? if there is a better win con then I would replace this with that and perhaps LED with a Mox?)

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
2 Cantrip/Control

10 Lands (to produce U/R or U/W)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Companion - Zidra


I've been goldfishing this Xerox list and it's a lot smoother.

Although it doesn't have some of the random T2 wins, it also feels a lot more consistent. The big thing is it runs much less card disadvantage so you aren't dumping your whole hand into the combo and blown out by disruption.


//Lands: 21
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains

//Artifacts: 8
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
2 Basalt Monolith

//Planeswalkers: 6
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Creatures: 3
3 Walking Ballista

//Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Orim's Chant
2 Impulse

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mr Fox
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Walking Ballista
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Force of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Wear // Tear
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment


I tried running fewer combo pieces and more cantrips/disruption, but it's more consistent this way. Magma Mine is unnecessary because Karn functions as wincons 4-7 from hand once you have infinite colorless mana.

I tested out Narset, Parter of Veils but 3 mana was too slow so I went with Impulse.

I tried Predict too, but because we don't profit off the GY like Breach and also need more mana to go off, it was a lot more durdly.

Flex slots:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Orim's Chant
2 Teferi
2 Astrolabe
2 Impulse

There is an argument for the 4th Ancient Tomb, not sure if it should be over a spell or a land.


Shell 3: Emry

Featuring the powerful Emry, Lurker of the Loch.





//Lands: 21
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Inventors' Fair

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Creatures: 13
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3 Walking Ballista
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster

//Artifacts: 22
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mr Fox
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Trinisphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Walking Ballista
1 Steel Hellkite
3 other spots


This should have a lot of tutor power and recursion. And it has the Karn plan B.

Shell 4: Bomberman Hybrid

Combining the Zirda combo with Bomberman (Auriok Salvagers + Lion's Eye Diamond) is appealing since there is overlap in relevant cards for both combo strategies.


Wanderlust's suggested Zirda/Bomberman Hybrid list 4/19/20

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Chromatic Star
2 Mystic Forge
4 Retrofitter Foundry
3 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Hope of Ghirapur

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den

Sideboard:
Companion - Zirda
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Glass Casket
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista
etc...



Cire provides a nice summary of the lists using this shell that have been seeing tournament success so far:


...the skeleton looks like:

0-3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
0-2 Ugin, the Ineffable

3-4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
0-3 Zirda, the Dawnwaker

3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3-4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
0-2 Mishra's Bauble
2-4 Manifold Key
0-2 Voltaic Key
3 Grim Monolith
0-3 Basalt Monolith
2-3 Mystic Forge
0-2 Retrofitter Foundry
0-2 Chromatic Sphere
0-4 Chromatic Star

2-4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4-5 Plains/Snow Covered
0-4 Cavern of Souls
0-2 Karakas

SB
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
0-1 Walking Ballista
0-3 Swords to Plowshares
0-3 Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing
1 Grim Monolith/Basalt Monolith
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
0-1 Mystic Forge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
0-1 Staff of domination
0-3 Thought-Knot Seer
0-2 Oblivion Ring
0-1 Ethersworn Canonist
0-2 Containment Priest

...

[FTW]

Interesting.

Unfortunately you can't run any of these cards:
Power Artifact (alternate infinite combo engine, would increase consistency and justify the Xerox shell)
Mesmeric Orb (alternate combo with Basalt Monolith)
Chalice of the Void/Defense Grid (resistors would be amazing protection)
Thought-Knot Seer (combo protection/beatdown plan)
Monastery Mentor (beatdown plan, alternate win for Salvagers decks)
Lodestone Golem (beatdown plan, resistor)


But you CAN run any of these cards:
Emry, Lurker of the Loch (dig engine for combo pieces, reuse mana rocks, salvage killed rocks)
Metalworker (other ramp)
Staff of Domination (another win condition, maybe redundant)
Galvanic Key (good with Monoliths)
Endbringer (one of the few Eldrazi you could play)
Steel Hellkite (another good ramp target)
Kuldotha Forgemaster (tutor for combo or bombs)
Lightning Greaves (protection)
Goblin Engineer (tutor + recursion)
Goblin Welder (recursion. Not playing Chalice, so why not?)
Arcum's Astrolabe (card draw, mana fixing)
Teferi, Time Raveler (combo protection)
Oko, Thief of Crowns (we are playing Magic....)
Brainstorm (we are playing Magic...)
Ponder (we can only run 4 Brainstorms)

I think either WelderMUD or Snowko could be a good shell for this.

[Wanderlust]

[list of cards]

I think either WelderMUD or Snowko could be a good shell for this.

I like the WelderMUD angle quite a bit as Staff of Domination also combos with Metalworker. Sounds like a lot of fun.

Emry seems great too!

[FTW]

SnowFox

This is what a combo deck looks like, right?


//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Predict
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dovin's Veto
1 Force of Negation
1 Council's Judgment
3 Terminus

//Artifacts: 9
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
3 Retrofitter Foundry
2 Grim Monolith

//Planeswalkers: 5
2 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Narset, Parter of Veils

//Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Forest

//Sideboard: 15
1 Zirda, the Dawnwalker
3 Veil of Summer
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Return to Nature
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Force of Negation
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Karakas


This is loosely based off a Retrofitter Miracles list I saw recently:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24854&d=373978&f=LE
Turns out Foundry isn't that bad as a win condition in a controlling shell, even outside the combo.

This deck gets to play like regular Snowko control. If you draw Monolith, you can make infinite mana and win, but this way there are minimal dead spots in the deck.

[Barook]

If you run E-tutor, why not a single Heliod as tutor target for the infinite combo with Ballista? Might be too cute, but the opportunity cost is low, so there's that.

[Wanderlust]

SnowFox

This is what a combo deck looks like, right?
<list>

What's gross about this deck is you probably don't even need the Grim Monoliths and Retrofitter Foundries: Zirda is just a +1 card advantage clock by default, which is about all this deck needs when it's time to win.

[Cire]

Ha thanks for running with my idea - I will be absolutely stoked if the next "broken" legacy card is AGAIN a red card.

Great Deck Name BTW!

[Tobitzki]

I'm not even sure we need a pre-existing shell here. This is just a really dumb, hyper-redundant A+B (+ side pet) combo for instant kills.

This would be my starting point:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2907908#paper


7 Monoliths
7 Ballista kill cons
7 Tutors for almost any card in the deck (except Fox)
max out on Foxes
Hope of G & Cavern of Souls for protection, plus Chant/Abeyance postboard
lowest possible mana curve


Considerations:
Faithless Looting over Wishclaw or Enlightened Tutor, then play Simian Spirit Guides over Mox Opal or some Sol Lands?
Street Wraith to further shrink the deck (good with E Tutor and can even jump in as a goofy beater if things go awry)

[Cire]

Trying to figure out the fastest this deck can go off (with room for protection)

Turn 1 - Sol Land + Grim Monolith
Turn 2 - Land + Mox/Petal (+ colored card and/or land)) --> Zidra + Win Con + FOW + BLUE

Or:

Turn 1 - Sol Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Basalt Monolith
Turn 2 - Land --> Zidra + Win Con + FOW + BLUE

This should be fine to get the above pretty consistently if I'm not mistaken? What, even mathematically what is that 65%+?

8 Moxes (Diamond or Chrome)
4 Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
4 Karn
19 Blue
-4 Daze
-4 FOW
-4 Pact of Negation
-4 Brainstorm
-3 Ponder
SB 14
Companion - Zidra
1 Lattice
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Hangerback Walker
Other Karn Tutor Spots?

[FTW]

Unfortunately this deck can't run Defense Grid, despite all the colorless mana.

Another angle you could take for combo protection in the white shell is Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant.
Scepter conveniently fits under the Zirda restriction and comes down really easily off Sol Lands.
Scepter + Chant will just win games of Magic on its own, and the rest of the time Chant still protects your combo turn.

[Barook]

I'm not even sure we need a pre-existing shell here. This is just a really dumb, hyper-redundant A+B (+ side pet) combo for instant kills.

This would be my starting point:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2907908#paper


7 Monoliths
7 Ballista kill cons
7 Tutors for almost any card in the deck (except Fox)
max out on Foxes
Hope of G & Cavern of Souls for protection, plus Chant/Abeyance postboard
lowest possible mana curve


Considerations:
Faithless Looting over Wishclaw or Enlightened Tutor, then play Simian Spirit Guides over Mox Opal or some Sol Lands?
Street Wraith to further shrink the deck (good with E Tutor and can even jump in as a goofy beater if things go awry)
Karn is probably necessary, as you might need a Plan B if your artifacts get shut down (via Ouphe/opposing Karns)

Another critical question is: How much colored mana/filter cards do you need to reliable cast Zirda on turn X? And how do you achieve that? Technically, you don't even need white with that approach since Zirda uses hybrid mana.

A Welder package might still be effective, both for tutoring (--> Engineer) and general consistency. E.g.

T1: Land, Welder
T2: Land, Monolith, LED, sac LED, play Zirda, make infinite mana, weld in discarded win-con (e.g. Magma Mine), win.

That's a pretty compact combo.

[Cire]

Why play Welder just so you can play LED? In the above if you replace one of the lands with a Sol land and the LED with any mox or LED the end result is the same.

[FTW]

Karn is probably necessary, as you might need a Plan B if your artifacts get shut down (via Ouphe/opposing Karns)

Another critical question is: How much colored mana/filter cards do you need to reliable cast Zirda on turn X? And how do you achieve that? Technically, you don't even need white with that approach since Zirda uses hybrid mana.

A Welder package might still be effective, both for tutoring (--> Engineer) and general consistency. E.g.

T1: Land, Welder
T2: Land, Monolith, LED, sac LED, play Zirda, make infinite mana, weld in discarded win-con (e.g. Magma Mine), win.

That's a pretty compact combo.

Goblin Engineer and Emry, Lurker of the Loch are both effectively better versions of Welder here because they even tutor for the combo pieces. Karn also acts as both a tutor and an alternate win condition.

I added a Welder-ish list. Like MUD, you can even use Kuldotha Forgemaster and Inventors' Fair as other tutors after early Monolith.

To filter into colored mana, I added Astrolabe. With 1 Sol land + 1 snow basic, you can cast Astrolabe and then it will filter you into 1RR.
Astrolabe synergizes well with Emry and Engineer.
Other mana rocks also help get colored mana and synergize well with Emry.


//Lands: 21
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Inventors' Fair

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Creatures: 14
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
3 Walking Ballista

//Artifacts: 21
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mr Fox
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Trinisphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 other spots


This should have a lot of tutor power and recursion. And it has the Karn plan B.

[Barook]

@FTW: I don't really feel Forgemaster. Looks slow and expensive, while Greaves eats another card slot.

I would rather try to fit in Urza if the mana allows it. You can jam giant artifact fatties if you get Null Rod'ed by your opponent and his :5: ability allows you to draw your entire deck once you have infinite mana. Maybe it's a good idea to get like 1x Magma Mine for that, but infinite Urza --> Karn --> fetch Ballista --> NUKE is just as viable.

[Wanderlust]

@FTW: I don't really feel Forgemaster. Looks slow and expensive, while Greaves eats another card slot.

I would rather try to fit in Urza if the mana allows it. You can jam giant artifact fatties if you get Null Rod'ed by your opponent and his :5: ability allows you to draw your entire deck once you have infinite mana. Maybe it's a good idea to get like 1x Magma Mine for that, but infinite Urza --> Karn --> fetch Ballista --> NUKE is just as viable.

I was skeptical about greaves at first too, but it's great with Emry and Goblin Engineer, or it lets you protect Mr Fox if for some reason you have to pass the turn without comboing off. I think it deserves consideration. Not bad with that Steel Hellkite in the wishboard either... well maybe (expensive to cast Hellkite and still have mana left over to activate it in the same turn.)

[Tobitzki]

Engineer does seem nice; not sure about Welder. Possibly stronger than playing white for E Tutor. I generally don't like the idea of having to wait a turn though. If we already have Fox + 1 other piece in play, Wishclaw Talisman is just instant win for 1B.

[Wanderlust]

Engineer does seem nice; not sure about Welder. Possibly stronger than playing white for E Tutor. I generally don't like the idea of having to wait a turn though. If we already have Fox + 1 other piece in play, Wishclaw Talisman is just instant win for 1B.

What's really fun is Welder/Engineer + Wishclaw Talisman TOGETHER :laugh:. Which reminds me of Painter combo: any reason that couldn't be another hybrid direction to look into? I'll throw a list together, goldfish it a bit, and report back.

EDIT: Painter's Servant has no activated ability. Never mind!

[FTW]

@FTW: I don't really feel Forgemaster. Looks slow and expensive, while Greaves eats another card slot.

I would rather try to fit in Urza if the mana allows it. You can jam giant artifact fatties if you get Null Rod'ed by your opponent and his :5: ability allows you to draw your entire deck once you have infinite mana. Maybe it's a good idea to get like 1x Magma Mine for that, but infinite Urza --> Karn --> fetch Ballista --> NUKE is just as viable.

Greaves protects Engineer / Emry / Zirda and gives haste. It seems useful.

Forgemaster works as a 3x in MUD (4 Grim + 4 Metalworker), so I thought it should work as a 2-of in a deck with 4x Grim + 3x Basalt + other mana rocks. There's a lot of maindeck ramp. It's less slow with Greaves. Steel Hellkite was there to board in as a Forgemaster target for the alternate beatdown plan.

Good point though, Urza's probably just better and more resilient against Collector Ouphe.

-2 Forgemaster
-1 other card
+3 Urza

[Cire]

Honestly I don't think there is any reason to jam in a second combo, or jam the combo into a Mud list or even use cards like Urza.

Just with these cards:

4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
-Companion Zirda

you have a 2 card combo that costs 2(r/w)(r/w) or 3(r/w)(r/w) that is split-able over two turns and has redundancy with multiple pieces.

Pretty much all successful 2 card combo decks, except painter, always end up eventually just running Xerox and associated protection:

8-12 Cantrips
4 FOW
0-6 Blue Protection.

Once you have those two "core" shells in - you're really then debating consistency and speed, but I don't see why that isn't the direction we should be aiming for?

Edit - In terms of speed there is my skeleton above trying to go as fast as possible while still having at least 1 protection spell. In terms of slowest build with no accel you can do this and have a very consistent 3-4 turn clock.

10 Cantrips
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Pact of Negation
4 Other control/Protection Cards
4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
20 Lands
-Companion Zirda

My guess is that optimal build will be somewhere in the middle of those two lists so my skeleton that I will test will be this loose list:

0-8 Moxes
0-4 Petal
0-8 Sol Lands
7-20 Non-Sol Lands

4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
3-4 Ponder
0-2 Preordain

4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Pact of Negation
0-6 Additional Protection

Definitely a very loose list ATM - just thought of the combo today, no testing as of yet.

[Wanderlust]

I just spent a while following Tobitzki's lead towards maximal speed and redundancy while still having some protection. Here's what I arrived at:

Combo pieces/mana:
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith

Kill:
4 Magma Mine
3 Walking Ballista

Kill/Tutor/Alternate win con:
4 Karn, the Great Creator

Protection:
4 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

Mana:
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Seething Song

Land:
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors' Fair

Sideboard:
1 Mr. Fox
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Walking Ballista
4 Abrade (to destroy Null Rods and Collector Ouphes)
2 By Force (destroy more Null Rods)
1 Mindbreak Trap

Played matches against 4c Snowko Control and UR Delver and won both 2-1. Deck felt powerful.


<truncated>

Cire I've arrived at the same conclusion that jamming this into decks with other combos isn't feeling like the right direction. And I look forward to testing out your ideas: there's a lot to be said for just playing the best cards in the format, obviously. The main problem I see with the Xerox shell is the manabase: I don't see a way to max out on sol lands, much less have room for cavern of souls, and also be reliably deploying the blue cantrip cartel and having islands for Daze. Cutting down on sol lands inevitably slows down the deck, I would think. Is the trade-off in speed worth it? I look forward to seeing how things develop.

[aedemiel]

Another angle you could take for combo protection in the white shell is Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant.

My thought exactly. I've been thinking about an up to date version of Scepter-Chant (with t3feri mainly) and this fox actually seems pretty good albeit a bit slow.

[Tobitzki]

@Wanderlust: Thanks for the inclusion in the shell overview.

Some quick thoughts after Goldfishing my list quite a bit:

Most often kills T3 & T2, often with Hope of G and/or Cavern protection.

Magma Mine > Ballista (costs 1 less to cast)
Will have to tinker with the mana base a bit: casting Fox without LED can be tricky.
The Bauble self-scry before Tutoring (or not) is cute.
Not all that convinced with E Tutor. I like the idea of Goblin Engineer here, especially when operating on 4 Caverns. That would also make Emry enticing (in the Wishclaw slots), but I'm not ready to go there yet. I've really liked the Hope of G, Bauble, Petal, Wishclaw for Mox Opal synergies.

I'm not super experienced with combo in Legacy, but this feels potentially very broken to me.

[pettdan]

The first deck I thought of when reading about the grim monolith+fox combo was the Turbo Forge deck which is probably the only other recent deck running Basalt Monolith. I'll put the link here because I think that can be useful to look at and compare with. It was/is a relatively strong deck.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32871-Paradox-Engine-Combo/

The deck above probably transformed into Turbo Forge as Mystic Forge was printed, and there's very little discussion about that but you can check the linked decklists on the second page if you're curious.

[Barook]

Magma Mine > Ballista (costs 1 less to cast)
How often does that matter, given that the wincon is infinite mana?

[Cire]

Cire I've arrived at the same conclusion that jamming this into decks with other combos isn't feeling like the right direction. And I look forward to testing out your ideas: there's a lot to be said for just playing the best cards in the format, obviously. The main problem I see with the Xerox shell is the manabase: I don't see a way to max out on sol lands, much less have room for cavern of souls, and also be reliably deploying the blue cantrip cartel and having islands for Daze. Cutting down on sol lands inevitably slows down the deck, I would think. Is the trade-off in speed worth it? I look forward to seeing how things develop.

Honestly, the mana base is a lot more workable if you're not running Cavern. I don't think you need cavern for the Fox. Sure it makes the card uncounterable, but the main part of the combo is still counterable. I think it's better to just run Sol lands and Islands and then protect yourself with FOW, Daze, Pact of Negation - maybe even Te3fri or Hope. Cavern only covers half the combo and messes up your mana base. Don't think you need it.

[Tobitzki]

How often does that matter, given that the wincon is infinite mana?

It matters quite a bit, because at least half the time we use LED to cast the Fox, so we need to play Ballista or MM before having infinite

[Cire]

It matters quite a bit, because at least half the time we use LED to cast the Fox, so we need to play Ballista or MM before having infinite

Just don't play LED, it really isn't needed. Running LED turns this from a 2 card combo (Monolith + Win con) into a three card combo (Monolith + Win Con + Goblin Engineer/Emry, Lurker of the Loch). Why increase the complexity of the combo?

[FTW]

Yeah LED seems unnecessary. Just play other mana-fixing instead, then you don't have to discard your hand.

Boros Signet? Arcum's Astrolabe? (labe converts sol land + snowbasic -> 1WW)

Though Magma Mine is still good either way, just for turning on Mox Opal.

[Cire]

Yeah LED seems unnecessary. Just play other mana-fixing instead, then you don't have to discard your hand.

Boros Signet? Arcum's Astrolabe? (labe converts sol land + snowbasic -> 1WW)

Though Magma Mine is still good either way, just for turning on Mox Opal.

I also think mana-fixing isn't strictly needed.

You need 2(r/w)(r/w) or 3(r/w)(r/w) to go off, split over two turns if need be. Assume the lines of play:

Turn 1 - Sol Land + Grim Monolith
Turn 2 - Land + Mox/Petal (+ colored card and/or land)) --> Zidra + Win Con

- In this situation Manafixing could stand in the Mox/Petal spot as it then you can tap the Monolith and convert that mana for colored mana.

Or:

Turn 1 - Sol Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Basalt Monolith
Turn 2 - Land --> Zidra + Win Con

- In this situation Manafixing could stand in the turn 2 land spot as it then you can tap the Monolith and convert that mana for colored mana.

But in both situations, why run mana fixing instead of moxes/petals and additional lands?

Edit:

Here are some lines without sol lands:

Turn 1 - Land
Turn 2 - Land + Grim Monolith
Turn 3 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con

Turn 1 - Land
Turn 2 - Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Basalat Monolith
Turn 3 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con

Turn 1 - Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Grim Monolith
Turn 2 - You should have enough mana to win --> Zidra + Win Con

You will only need mana fixing in the last line and only if your mox can't produce R/W.

[kinda]

I'm thinking something like this. Considering md devil's play or welder.


4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Lukka, Coppercoat Outcast
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2 steel hellkite
4 orcish lumberjack
4 Hope of Ghirapur
3 walking ballista
1 tinder Wall
3 burning wish
3 mystic forge
2 LED

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 taiga
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
1 forest
1 mountain

Sideboard:
1 demonfire
1 Devil's Play
1 by force
1 rolling earthquake
1 Mr. Fox
1 walking ballista
1 sorcerous spyglass
1 living wish
1 emrakul, the promised end
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 basalt monolith
3 veil of summer
1 pyroclasm
1 firespout

[Cire]

Can't run Emrakul, the aeons torn, it doesn't have an activated ability.

[FTW]

I ran 20 Goldfishes with this list


//Lands: 20
12 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

//Creatures: 7
4 Hope of Ghirapur
3 Walking Ballista

//Spells: 8
4 Orim's Chant
4 Enlightened Tutor

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Artifacts: 21
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Magma Mine
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
2 Isochron Scepter


Scepter was in a filler spot. Could also be Arcum's Astrolabe or Boros Signet.


Summary
Turn 1 wins: 0
Turn 2 wins: 7
Turn 3 wins: 11
Slower: 2

Protected: 5
Unprotected: 15


Thoughts
1) Even though we have 7 Monolith + 11 wincon + 8 sol lands, there's still high variance in drawing one of each. Tutor helped. Still, mulliganing/ETutoring to find pieces reduces our chances of having enough mana and protection. Cantrip cartel might be better even if slower. Variance affects speed too.

2) The other limitation is getting enough mana for both Monolith and Fox. It's hard to win earlier than turn 3 just due to the mana requirements, casting it over 2 separate turns and/or dropping 2 Plains. Also Basalt Monolith is MUCH slower than Grim. It's a Time Walk for the opponent.

3) Karn is slow if we're in turbo mode. ETutor is faster. Karn functioned as Walking Ballista copies 4-7 (i.e. once we have infinite mana, it's a wincon from hand). In real games it will be useful for a plan B, but it's slow for racing with plan A.

4) 4 Plains could have been Caverns. White was mainly for Fox.

5) At least once I couldn't attack with Hope because I needed the Metalcraft for Opal to cast Fox. Awkward. Astrolabe might help, for both fixing and Metalcraft without losing a card.


Results
1) Mull to 6. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Ballista

2) Mull to 5. T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Mine

3) Mull to 5. T1 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista

4) T1 Hope. T2 Grim + Mine. T3 Fox with Hope protection

5) T1 Mine. T2 Grim. T3 Fox

6) T1 Grim. T2 Mine, Fox.

7) Mull to 6. T1 Hope. T2 Basalt + Fox -> Karn

8) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Mine with Chant protection

9) T1 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista

10) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox.

11) T1 Mine. T2 Grim -> Fox

12) T1 Scepter+Chant. Stall.... T6 Basalt -> Fox -> Mine

13) Mull to 6. T1 Grim. T2 Mine. .. can't find 2nd white. T4 Fox

14) T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Ballista

15) T1 Hope. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Mine with Hope protection

16) T1 Grim. T2 Fox -> Mine/Karn

17) Mull to 5. T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Karn

18) T1 Hope. T2 Basalt -> Fox -> Ballista

19) T1 Scepter+Chant. T2 Basalt. T3 Fox -> Ballista with double Chant protection

20) T1 ETutor. T2 Grim. T3 Fox -> Ballista

[kinda]

Can't run Emrakul, the aeons torn, it doesn't have an activated ability.

****...you're right.

[Cire]

FTW - you're right that Etutor helps with variance, but going off what we learned with the Breach combo decks (and remember I was a big propoenent of Etutor for those decks) I would suggest running 8+ cantrips and checking your variance then.

[FTW]

FTW - you're right that Etutor helps with variance, but going off what we learned with the Breach combo decks (and remember I was a big propoenent of Etutor for those decks) I would suggest running 8+ cantrips and checking your variance then.

Well yeah, that was my point in #1. Between the mulligans and ETutor (effective mulligan), you don't keep enough cards for protection or redundancy and cantrips are probably better.

Because the combo is constrained by mana requirements, it's tough to race faster than turn 3 even if you make an all-in build, so I think a slower Xerox build is better.

I just posted that to test how viable an all-in build would be. Despite having 7 copies of each piece AND ETutor, variance and mana are both constraints on going faster.

[Tobitzki]

Scepter was in a filler spot. Could also be Arcum's Astrolabe or Boros Signet.



I really like that list and thanks for the useful data. Only that filler slot should probably be some MD copies of Fox. I still like Wishclaw over Karn I think and splashing black shouldn't be too difficult.

[Barook]

@FTW: Would Serum Powder help with consistency? It has an activated ability, so it's fair game.

How are the colored mana requirements? Aside from Astrolabe, would Chromatic Star/Sphere help?

[FTW]

I've been goldfishing this Xerox list and it's a lot smoother.

Although it doesn't have some of the random T2 wins, it also feels a lot more consistent. The big thing is it runs much less card disadvantage so you aren't dumping your whole hand into the combo and blown out by disruption.


//Lands: 21
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains

//Artifacts: 8
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
2 Basalt Monolith

//Planeswalkers: 6
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Creatures: 3
3 Walking Ballista

//Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Orim's Chant
2 Impulse

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mr Fox
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Walking Ballista
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Force of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Wear // Tear
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment


I tried running fewer combo pieces and more cantrips/disruption, but it's more consistent this way. Magma Mine is unnecessary because Karn functions as wincons 4-7 from hand once you have infinite colorless mana.

I tested out Narset, Parter of Veils but 3 mana was too slow so I went with Impulse.

I tried Predict too, but because we don't profit off the GY like Breach and also need more mana to go off, it was a lot more durdly.

Flex slots:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Orim's Chant
2 Teferi
2 Astrolabe
2 Impulse

There is an argument for the 4th Ancient Tomb, not sure if it should be over a spell or a land.

[FTW]

@FTW: Would Serum Powder help with consistency? It has an activated ability, so it's fair game.

How are the colored mana requirements? Aside from Astrolabe, would Chromatic Star/Sphere help?

Not sold on Serum Powder. It hasn't worked in any other tier combo deck. It's still mulliganing, which is high variance (could make your hand worse or better). You see as many cards with the London mulligan, you just keep fewer of them. Meanwhile Serum Powder is such a bad topdeck.

Star/Sphere seem like a worse version of Astrolabe. You don't need the extra card after casting Zirda, you want it earlier during setup. The only advantage is you can cast it off Sol/Monolith mana, but you could do the same with Boros Signet (which fixes both colors).

[FTW]

I really like that list and thanks for the useful data. Only that filler slot should probably be some MD copies of Fox. I still like Wishclaw over Karn I think and splashing black shouldn't be too difficult.

Karn, the Great Creator functions as Walking Ballista in hand. Wishclaw doesn't.

Example:
Your board: Plains, Plains, Monolith.
Tap out to cast Mr. Fox from Companion zone.
Use the floating 2 to untap Monolith
Get infinite colorless mana

Now if you have Karn in hand you can cast it and win the game, but if you have Wishclaw in hand you can't because you need colored mana. Colored mana is a major constraint in going off. Casting Zirda usually takes all the colored mana available. Wishclaw also pushes the manabase into Black (not useful for casting Zirda).

[aedemiel]

Just for the sake of the discussion, the newly spoiled Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy also makes infinite mana with Basalt Monolith.

[ReAnimator]

Just for the sake of the discussion, the newly spoiled Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy also makes infinite mana with Basalt Monolith.

https://mythicspoiler.com/iko/cards/kinnanbonderprodigy.jpg

Temur could work with minimal effort. Things like Astrolabe and Mox diamond work well with this as well as enabling the splash.

[FTW]

Kinnan does combo with Basalt Monolith. The question is if Kinnan does anything to make the deck any better?

The 2-card A+B combo here is Basalt Monolith + Walking Ballista. (Zirda is a free card due to Companion). Kinnan doesn't replace either combo piece, so it doesn't help you from a card perspective. You still need to find A+B. It replaces a card in your Companion zone.

Zirda still costs mana (1WW) and the mana cost can be prohibitive. Does Kinnan save you mana? That's where it might help. But because it also costs 2 colored mana (UG) and colored mana is usually the constraint, it may not speed anything up.

It's worth testing. From my goldfishing I just don't see it solving any of the deck's problems.

[aedemiel]

I think you're right. It probably should be a different deck.
That way we wouldn't be under Zirda companion restriction either.

[Cire]

Kinnan does combo with Basalt Monolith. The question is if Kinnan does anything to make the deck any better?

The 2-card A+B combo here is Basalt Monolith + Walking Ballista. (Zirda is a free card due to Companion). Kinnan doesn't replace either combo piece, so it doesn't help you from a card perspective. You still need to find A+B. It replaces a card in your Companion zone.

Zirda still costs mana (1WW) and the mana cost can be prohibitive. Does Kinnan save you mana? That's where it might help. But because it also costs 2 colored mana (UG) and colored mana is usually the constraint, it may not speed anything up.
.

This ^

[Cire]

//Lands: 21
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains

//Artifacts: 8
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
2 Basalt Monolith

//Planeswalkers: 6
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Creatures: 3
3 Walking Ballista

//Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Orim's Chant
2 Impulse

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mr Fox
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Walking Ballista
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Force of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Wear // Tear
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment



Glad you're coming around. This fits neatly into the shell I proposed (amended with some of your edits). I am trying to replicated the work we did with breach where we sort of zeroed in on a good broad shell and then slowly started narrowing it.

0-8 Moxes
0-4 Petal
0-8 Sol Lands
7-20 Non-Sol Lands

0-4 Arcum's Astrolabe

4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
2-3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
3-4 Ponder
0-6 Preordain/Impulse
4 FOW
0-14 Additional Protection
-- Daze
-- Pact of Negation
-- Spell Pierce
-- Orim's Chant
-- Teferi, Time Raveler
-- Sword's to Plowshares

So very broad, but some more theory:

Looking at lines I posted previously one could see that the deck can go off turn 3 pretty well without the help of sol lands. Lines of play could perhaps look like this:

Turn 1 - Land + Cantrip
Turn 2 - Land + Grim Monolith
Turn 3 - Land + 1 mana protection spell (Chant/Counter) + Zidra from companion + Win Con + Free Counter + Blue for FOW.

That hand should be pretty doable I think and it looks crazy. You can go off reliably turn 3 with 2 protection spells. The bare minimum for the above should be:

20 Lands
10 Cantrips
4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
4 Fow
4 Pact of Negation
4 Chant (or STP)
4 [Other 1 Blue CMC Protection Spell]

Then look at the mana requirements above.

Turn 1 - U
Turn 2 - 2 Generic
Turn 3 - (w/u)(r/w)(r/w)

This is not that difficult to achieve with just regular lands, but if we want to speed up - especially if we want to be able to cast Basalt Monolith on turn 2 - this will become a little difficult.

Turn 2 we will either need to cast an accel or a Sol Land, so right off the bat we will probably need to make room for 4 Sol Lands and 4 "Accel".

Looking at the Sol-land line in that instance you can easily see how powerful it would be if Arcum's Astrolabe is included as a "cantrip". It doesn't dig as far BUT it allows more turn 2 wins and it smooths over the mana over the three turns in that line allowing you to cast those two protection spells.

So the list at this point looks like:

10 U fetchs
2 Snow-covered island
4 U/W Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
4 Fow
4 Pact of Negation
4 Chant (or STP)
4 [Other 1 Blue CMC Protection Spell]
4 Accel

At this point the next step is to cut 4 cards for those accel cards. First we need to figure out which card it would be. Chrome mox and Mox diamond both cause card disadvantage which we cannot afford if we want the line above. That leaves Mox Opal and temporary accel like Petal. The thing is we will struggle a lot of get metalcraft for Mox Opal and temporary accel is not that bad - see below:

Turn 1 - Land + Cantrip
Turn 2 - Land + Lotus Petal + Basalt Monolith
Turn 3 - Zidra from companion + Win Con + Free Counter + Blue for FOW.

True we lose the ability to cast 2 protection spells the turn we go off. Not sure how to fix that.

As for cards to cut, we can probably cut 1 Negation and 1 chant as well as 1 Karn (we should be able to draw into one of the 6 win cons by the 10th card we draw). We can additionally probably cut 1 land.

So a starting list within this framework could look like this:

10 U fetchs
2 Snow-covered island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 U/W Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
3 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
4 Fow
3 Pact of Negation
3 Chant (or STP)
4 [Other 1 Blue CMC Protection Spell]
4 Lotus Petal

[FTW]

Yeah that shell looks good.

The use of the Companion Zone means you don't need that many cards to go off, like Breach. Grim Monolith + 2 Plains is sufficient for infinite mana. From there you just need protection and a win condition, so cantrip sculpting and countermagic seems good. Although it's not as fast, I think it'll lead to a higher win rate due to better card selection, especially postboard.

A good example shell is MartinMedMitten's Thought Lash + Thassa's Oracle combo deck. That's also an A+B combo that needs Ancient Tomb for mana acceleration. The good 5-0 lists used the full 12 cantrip suite and FoW. Some splashed white for Teferi. I think it also ran redundant combo pieces via Paradigm Shift and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries or Lab Man.


All-In Strategy
I tested out the all-in version more. I made a hybrid of the OP list and the Welder list (Goblin Engineer is a really useful tutor, and Astrolabe helps filter Sol/Monolith mana into colored mana).


//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
10 Snow-Covered Mountain

//Artifacts: 24
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Magma Mine
1 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith

//Creatures: 12
3 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Walking Ballista

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Sideboard:
1 Mr. Fox
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Walking Ballista
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lion's Eye Diamond


When I didn't have A+B in the starting hand, a very common sequence was Turn 1 Astrolabe. Turn 2 Engineer. T3 go off.
Astrolabe was very good for filtering, turning on Metalcraft, and working as Welder fodder.

Simian Spirit Guide leads to some explosive plays.
Goldfishing anyway. It is more all-in card disadvantage, which could be bad against an opponent.

But just how explosive can it get?

30 Goldfishes
Turn 1: 0
Turn 2: 10
Turn 3: 17
Turn 4: 1
Turn 5: 1
Fizzled: 1

The extra mana accel leads to a few more turn 2 wins than the White build I goldfished earlier, but most wins are still on turn 3.

What about protection? There's only room for Hope and often not enough mana or tempo to deploy it without losing a turn.
Protected: 8
Unprotected: 22

The explosive mana helped goldfish a little faster, but still not enough to enter turn 1 win territory or even consistent turn 2 wins. I think All-In is not viable for turn 3 or later. Once you become a turn 3 combo deck you face all sorts of hate like Thalia and Collector Ouphe and Phyrexian Revoker. The benchmark for all-in combo are decks like Oops All Spells, Belcher, Echo of Eons. For comparison, even the Echo of Eons / Song of Creation list I posted in the other thread was goldfishing turn 1-2 wins regularly.

This either needs to go even more all-in (LEDs to cast Fox 1 turn earlier) or run more disruption (and less card disadvantage).

Because of that I agree with Cire. The Xerox shell looks more promising. But if anyone else gets better results with all-in versions, please share!

[Wanderlust]

30 Goldfishes
Turn 1: 0 (0%)
Turn 2: 10 (33%)
Turn 3: 17 (56%)
Turn 4: 1 (3.3%)
Turn 5: 1 (3.3%)
Fizzled: 1 (3.3%)

What about protection? There's only room for Hope and often not enough mana or tempo to deploy it without losing a turn.
Protected: 8 (26.7%)
Unprotected: 22 (73.3%)



(I added percentages to the above for easier comparison)

I just ran 40 goldfishes of the exact "all-in" list currently in the OP, which makes room for Hope, Pyroblast, and Cavern of Souls. Cavern is an interesting case: the way I'm thinking about it, since there is redundancy between 7 monoliths and 4 Karn to go get another, I consider going off with Mr. Fox safe from countermagic to be "protected", even though, yes, they could counter/destroy a monolith, etc. Although Cavern is only a form of quasi-protection, it's protection of the most important piece. Obviously the importance of cavern's form of protection is debatable. Anyways, as to the results of my goldfishing, our turn % numbers are similar, but the list I'm on is going off "protected" much more often.

40 Goldfishes
Turn 1: 2 (5%)
Turn 2: 11 (27.5%)
Turn 3: 18 (45%)
Turn 4: 5 (12.5%)
Turn 5: 2 (5%)
Fizzle: 2 (5%)

Protection:
Protected: 24 (60%)
Unprotected: 16 (40%)

One additional note: 83% of the turn 3 wins were protected, with an average of 1 piece of protection per turn 3 win. That seems decent right? How does this compare to other decks y'all have looked at the numbers for?

[FTW]

Great to see more results!

Yeah the speed seems consistent with my results. I eventually got a turn 1 after some more tests, but they're rare (e.g. Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Lotus Petal, SSG, win con). It's a turn 2-3 deck tilting towards turn 3.

Seething Song adds a few more turn 1s (Sol Land, SSG/Petal, Seething Song, either Monolith, any win con).


Yeah Cavern seems like an improvement.

Though if they have FoW they can just counter your Monolith or the wincon instead. Yeah there are more Monoliths and Karns in the deck, but the all-in version has so much card disadvantage and so little card selection that you're really far behind in resources if anything gets countered. I wouldn't count on recovering. The topdecks are terrible. The Xerox builds can recover more easily.

Another risk is that they Lightning Bolt or Abrupt Decay Zirda in response to one of the Monolith untap triggers. If your only copy of Zirda dies, the deck does nothing.

Hope/Orim's Chant is stronger protection. If they stick then you're protected to go off. With Cavern and even REB, you can still be blown out. They make the stats look better, but in real games the protection may not be that good... I'll try testing that build against Delver.

[Wanderlust]

Another risk is that they Lightning Bolt or Abrupt Decay Zirda in response to one of the Monolith untap triggers. If your only copy of Zirda dies, the deck does nothing.

If we have enough mana we can just stack another untap trigger in response to bolt/decay on Zirda and still make infinite mana. Sure, Zirda will die the next time we want to do something at sorcery speed, but at the point I'm assuming we're casting a massive ballista and winning. I've noticed a plus to having both types of Monolith in hand: grim casts basalt and basalt costs 1 less to untap, making the "stack another untap in response to your removal" cheaper.

I did another round of goldfishing with the most balls-to-the-wall-but-still-somewhat-protected list I could think up. (List below the results)

40 goldfishes:
Turn 1: 5 (12.5%)
Turn 2: 13 (32.5%)
Turn 3: 19 (47.5%)
Turn 4: 2 (5%)
Fizzle: 1 (2.5%)

With protection: 17 (42.5%)
Without protection: 23 (57.5%)

Note that I was operating under the rule "you must mulligan if there is no monolith or tutor for monolith in your starting hand (but you can mull a hand with a monolith if it's a bad hand)".

About the list: maxed out on 1cmc kill conditions so that I could cast them more easily before cracking LED to cast Zirda.

Combo:
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith

Kill:
4 Magma Mine
2 Walking Ballista
4 Retrofitter Foundry

Kill/tutor/alternate win:
3 Karn, the Great Creator

Protection:
4 Hope of Ghirapur

Protection/mana:
4 Cavern of Souls

Tutor/mana:
2 Inventors' Fair

Mana:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Defense Grid
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista
...stuff...

Edit: just took this list for a spin against UR Delver and went 5-1 in game ones (alternating play vs. draw).

[Tobitzki]

Good work everyone.

A few points in defense of Wishclaw Talisman:

@FTW: Those Karn lines are cool, but that's not how Wishclaw works: It sits in play enabling Metalcraft until you pop it in your kill turn for (1). It can also find a Chant (I went down to 1) when already holding the combo but looking to defend it.

I took out the LEDs, but v soon put a single one back in; it's just too good at casting the Fox under a Hope activation. I'd also recommend anyone running Karn to stick one in the side for the same purpose.

In general, I'd say that the strongest T2 / T3 kills involve T1 Hope. And yes, T3 is the charm here.

So I've Goldfished this a lot, but only kept track on the final 20 games. The results confirm my overall feel for the deck though.

T2: 5
T3: 11 (maybe half of them Hope- or Chant-protected)
T4: 4

The Xerox shell is obviously a strong and proven option, but I really like the artifact theme to facilitate Opal (=mana acceleration w/o card disadvantage) and E Tutor. If Hope and Chant are our main forms of protection you'll want to cast as much of the combo in a single turn, and that means (W/R) (W/R) (3). I think Karn's casting cost is steep there.

Latest list:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Cavern of Souls
1x Inventors' Fair

4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Scrubland

1x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal

4x Grim Monolith
3x Basalt Monolith
4x Magma Mine
3x Walking Ballista
2x Zirda, the Dawnwaker

4x Wishclaw Talisman
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Mishra's Bauble

4x Hope of Ghirapur
1x Orim's Chant

[adrieng]

Just a question can you cast mr fox from outside the game like if it was in your hand,

cause in the list there is not mr fox in the deck, I don't get these new stuff from wizard,

do you need the restriction from your deck ?

EDIT : ok i get it though doesn't it lose to bolt ?

[FTW]

Just a question can you cast mr fox from outside the game like if it was in your hand,

cause in the list there is not mr fox in the deck, I don't get these new stuff from wizard,

do you need the restriction from your deck ?

EDIT : ok i get it though doesn't it lose to bolt ?

It's the new Companion rule.

Think of it like Zirda starting in the Command Zone. You can cast it from there once, but then it doesn't go back there again. You can use Zirda as your Companion as long as every permanent in your maindeck has an activated ability (most lands have mana abilities, though The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale isn't allowed, so you can make your mortgage payment instead).

Hope of Ghirapur stops Bolt.
You can also respond to Bolt with a 2nd untap activation (just needs 1-2 more floating) and go off again in response.

I tested some pre-board games with the all-in build (OP list) against RUG Delver last night to see how viable it was. I beat Bolt! He Stifled my Hope activation, then Dazed me, and I still had just enough mana to untap Monolith a 2nd time in response to Bolt and win.

Unfortunately I lost most other games to counters on Monolith + Wasteland + additional disruption, since I was behind on cards (card disadvantage). Cavern was a lot less good than I thought. After the first time he saw it, he just always countered the Monolith. Then another game he didn't counter Monolith so I thought I had it and went for it (without Cavern), and he countered Mr. Fox. That's the only copy, that's it, so after that all I could do is shoot Delvers with Ballistas and otherwise lose fast. I lost one game to having my 2nd Monolith Elked the turn before I could draw into a 2nd red source. An Oko meta is not kind to a combo deck that passes the turn with an artifact. I managed to win one game turn 1 OTP (he didn't have Force). I tried it another game but he had Force. I won another game because he attacked with Delver instead of leaving it to block Hope. I only had 1 land, maybe he thought I wasn't a threat. Turned out he had 2x Force + Daze + Bolt in hand but couldn't use any of it. He didn't make that mistake again.

[Reeplcheep]

I think one thing that would make scepter chant a more reasonable inclusion, and that people haven't mentioned yet, is that fox plus scepter plus manamorphose is also infinite mana. At extremely minimal cost now your scepter is protection, lock piece and combo piece.

Also dramatic reversal plus manalith is a ritual, dramatic reversal + scepter + manalith (even without fox) is also infinite.

[FTW]

I like the idea of Scepter-Chant protection.

In my games against Delver, stopping counters on Fox isn't enough. There are all sorts of ways they can disrupt you:
-Counter Monolith (FoW, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare)
-Stifle untap activation to make you pay extra mana.
-Stifle Mine activation to stop your wincon
-Stifle Karn -2 to stall a turn (and then kill Karn, or kill you, or kill the Fox)
-FoW the win condition instead
-Double Bolt Fox
-Elk your stuff with Oko if you play it out early

If you're facing a clock, you can't wait to build up resources to play around everything. The cantrip decks topdeck better than the all-in builds can. More draw steps favor them (their hand will improve faster than ours, due to better card quality). My wins came from speed + bad luck from the opponent. The long games were all losses. You can do silly things like beatdown with Ballista and Spirit Guides, ping their Delvers and try to win with Karn, but Xerox decks will outgrind us if they're halfway decent players.

Preboard games: 8/20 40%

Breakdown of the wins:
- Turn 1 kill OTP. He didn't have Force. (Tomb, Grim Monolith, LED, Opal, Mine)
- Turn 1 kill OTD. He didn't have Force and I beat Daze + Bolt. (Tomb, Petal, Grim, Basalt, 2xSSG, Karn)
- Turn 1 kill OTD. He didn't have Force and tapped out for Delver. (Tomb, Petal, Opal, Grim, Mine)
- Had a turn 1 kill OTP, Monolith got Forced, but T2 had the 2nd Monolith to win through Daze (Monolith, mana rocks, Seething Song, Mine)
- Turn 1 Grim Monolith OTP got Forced, but still managed T2 Basalt into T3 win
- After 1st Monolith was countered, opponent burned 2x Bolt on 2 Hopes and had nothing left for Fox.
- Hope got Stifled, but all he had was Bolt and I beat it with the double untap
- Delver misplayed. He let me get Hope through. I had been attacking with Hope for several turns just for damage, and I only had a Mountain after getting double Wasted, so he thought it was harmless. Hope let me go off through 2x Force, 2 blue cards, Daze, Bolt... If he kept Delver to block or Bolted Hope I lose this hard.

4 of those wins were turn 1 hands where the opponent didn't have FoW, so I got lucky getting good hands when he had worse.
1 was an opponent misplay, which will happen when they see a new combo deck at first.
4 of those hands had double Monolith, for the redundancy if one got Forced or to have extra untap mana to beat Bolt.

So most of that is lucksacking into fast explosive hands. Otherwise we need protection.

[Reeplcheep]

Do you agree that manamorphose is a very low opportunity cost inclusion for an additional infinite mana combo?

Also it fixes mana so that you can cast fox off of monolith, and scepter plus manamorphose is just tap draw a card which is pretty great as a fair dig.

I think this deck really wants 3feri (turns scepter chant into gg, additional protection for main combo, and deals with hate cards)

Edit: woops glossed over your second sentence so the above doesn't really make sense.

[aedemiel]

I'm probably missing something, but how is Zirda+Scepter+Manamorphose infinite anyway?

[Reeplcheep]

I'm probably missing something, but how is Zirda+Scepter+Manamorphose infinite anyway?

Your right i'm crazy :confused:, manamorphose can't make it untap itself. I was confusing it with dramatic reversal. Its still a ritual that draws a card.

Scepter + dramatic reversal + fox plus any nonland mana source is infinite untaps, plus 2 is make infinite mana. Not nearly as good as manamorphose.

[Cire]

I think Cavern of Souls and Manamorphose are not worth it. Cavern doesn't protect the entire combo (as been mentioned they will just concentrate on the Monolith) and it messes up the mana base depending on how many snow-lands you need (Astrolab) or SolLands. It's just too hard to include and it doesn't provide that much protection. Manamorphose also takes up valuable spots that can be filtering, accel or more protection. The off chance that you combo off with Scepter is not worth it. Generally, unlike other combo decks you have enough redundancy (and go off late enough (aiming for turn 3) that you do not need to worry about getting the combo into play. Instead you are worried about protection the combo. Running test games I quickly realized, as much of you have, that the real hurdle is OKO. You need to counter or shut OKO down before you cast your monolith OR go off in one turn.

Going off in one turn you're waiting for turn 3 at least:

1 - Land
2 - Land
3 - Sol Land + Accel + [Grim Monolith AND Chant/1CMC protection spell] OR [Basalt Monolith] --> Zidra + Win Con + Daze or FOW + Blue card ready


Shutting down OKO should look like this:

1 - Land
2 - [Land+Grim Monolith] OR [Sol-Land+Basalt Monolith] - assume opponent is casting OKO, have Daze or FOW + Blue card ready. If that is not enough OKO protection you might want to include Needles in the deck and cast turn 1.
3 - [Land or Accel]+Chant/1CMC protection spell --> Zidra + Win Con

[Wanderlust]

If that is not enough OKO protection you might want to include Needles in the deck and cast turn 1.


Unfortunately Needle doesn't pass Zirda's activated ability requirement :frown:.

As for your testing against RUG Delver: I'm not surprised that wasn't an easy matchup, especially if they are playing stifle. 8/20 (40% win rate) isn't SO bad for what looks on paper like one of our worst matchups. I think the all-in builds are much better suited to beat the more popular snow control and UR Delver decks.

Curious to hear how the Xerox shell is working out in goldfishing/testing!

[Reeplcheep]

Ok I agree manamorphose is not good enough. Scepter will feel real bad if we don't have at least 12 good instants to put on it, is 4 brainstorm 4 chant 4 dispel/spell pierce/fluster good enough? If we run abeyance or veil in the disruption slot how bad is the blue count?

[aedemiel]

@Reeplcheep: if you want to play Scepter and stick to Jeskai, then Boros Charm is a legit wincon (also, it protects Zirda from Decay and Bolt...).

[Reeplcheep]

@Reeplcheep: if you want to play Scepter and stick to Jeskai, then Boros Charm is a legit wincon (also, it protects Zirda from Decay and Bolt...).

I think abeyance seems better as a sudo-timewalk and still gg with teferi if I'm not going to run a blue card. I do like boros charm but I feel scepter is more likely to be elked or councils' judged than disenchanted nowadays.

[FTW]

8/20 (40% win rate) isn't SO bad for what looks on paper like one of our worst matchups.

Well, 4 of those 8 wins were turn 1 win hands without opponent having counters. So some of that was luck. Based on your goldfish results turn 1 hands happen maybe 12% of the time, and opponent will have a counter at least half the time (FoW OTP, FoW or Daze or Pierce OTD). But yeah, it should be one of our worst matches so it's not terrible. Stifle was much bigger problem than I expected.


I think the all-in builds are much better suited to beat the more popular snow control and UR Delver decks.

It should do well against most nonblue decks and Snow control (one FoW without a clock can be fought through). Chalice decks might be a decent matchup, since we can go off through Chalice @ 1. Chalice @ 0 stops some mana rocks but there's still SSG.

UR Delver sounds hard. Counters + Bolts + fast clock is tough to beat.

I haven't tested the UW build as much but it feels like less of a coin flip. You don't get those decisive turn 1-2 wins when they just don't have an answer, but the draws are a lot better as the game goes on. I have to test more matches with it first. The decision trees are more complex.

[Cire]

Curious to hear how the Xerox shell is working out in goldfishing/testing!

I hate playing online and I can't play in person given . . . everything, but in goldfishing it has been going very well (with my list brainstormed from yesterday 04:26 PM), so results could change against live opponents:

Out of 50

Turn 1: 0
Turn 2: 12 -No protection: 4
-With protection: 8 (7 of these were FOW/Daze, but another was me getting an extra petal and casting Chant) Turn 3: 24 -No protection: 3
-With 1 protection piece : 13 (No always FOW/Daze, given what accel you've drawn (anything extra or if you have Grim monolith the turn before this could be chant/other protection. However, I aggressively searched for FOW/Daze to protect casting grim monolith turn 2)
-With 2 protection pieces: 8 (in full honesty, I've been treating the open 1cmc blue spots in my deck as "blue silences" - no clue what 1 cmc counter would be best here. Needs to be blue for FOW purposes)
Turn 4: 10 -No protection: 1
-With 1 protection piece: 5
-With 2 protection pieces:4 Turn 5 (assumed Loss): 4 (I've been assuming that when we pass the turn on turn 4 we will lose that game).

[FTW]

Turn 5 (assumed Loss): 4 (I've been assuming that when we pass the turn on turn 4 we will lose that game)

I would not make that assumption for the Xerox shell. For the all-in shell yes (even turn 4 OTD is probably a loss), but UW can play a grindy game.

I tested some against RUG Delver again, winning 7/10. Small sample size. But most of my wins were later in the game, unlike the all-in build that had to go fast or lost.

One win was turn 30. After facing 3 FoW + Spell Pierce early, then having Mr Fox killed. I had the mana to go infinite in response, but he had Stifle for the Karn activation and then killed Karn. With cantrips I eventually found another Karn to get Ensnaring Bridge to stay alive at 4 life (forcing Bolt on Karn to stop Lattice). Then I managed to find another Karn and Lattice at 1 life. Then I dug up Ballista, he had FoW (through Lattice), I was ready with 5 lands to hardcast FoW (at 1 life), but he also had Daze. Eventually I found another Ballista and got there with pings. Brainstorm is a good card.

For the all-in builds it makes sense to look at Goldfish speed, but the UW build is better measured by how it beats disruption and digs into a second wind. That's the point of playing blue. It's never going to goldfish as fast, but how does it deal with disruption?

[Cire]

I would not make that assumption for the Xerox shell. For the all-in shell yes (even turn 4 OTD is probably a loss), but UW can play a grindy game.

I tested some against RUG Delver again, winning 7/10. Small sample size. But most of my wins were later in the game, unlike the all-in build that had to go fast or lost.

One win was turn 30. After facing 3 FoW + Spell Pierce early, then having Mr Fox killed. I had the mana to go infinite in response, but he had Stifle for the Karn activation and then killed Karn. With cantrips I eventually found another Karn to get Ensnaring Bridge to stay alive at 4 life (forcing Bolt on Karn to stop Lattice). Then I managed to find another Karn and Lattice at 1 life. Then I dug up Ballista, he had FoW (through Lattice), I was ready with 5 lands to hardcast FoW (at 1 life), but he also had Daze. Eventually I found another Ballista and got there with pings. Brainstorm is a good card.

For the all-in builds it makes sense to look at Goldfish speed, but the UW build is better measured by how it beats disruption and digs into a second wind. That's the point of playing blue. It's never going to goldfish as fast, but how does it deal with disruption?

That's great to hear - but on the last point, it's still goldfishing pretty well. Like maybe in real games I will mulligan differently and be less aggressive but it's a fairly consistent turn <3 win % even with lots of protection and cantrips

[H]

Then I managed to find another Karn and Lattice at 1 life. Then I dug up Ballista, he had FoW (through Lattice), I was ready with 5 lands to hardcast FoW (at 1 life), but he also had Daze. Eventually I found another Ballista and got there with pings. Brainstorm is a good card.

One minor note, but I don't think one can Force of Will by pitching cards with a Mycosynth Lattice in play, because all cards are now colorless (and not in addition to other colors, they are just flat colorless), so you should have won that much sooner.

[FTW]

One minor note, but I don't think one can Force of Will by pitching cards with a Mycosynth Lattice in play, because all cards are now colorless (and not in addition to other colors, they are just flat colorless), so you should have won that much sooner.

Oh right, Daze works but FoW doesn't. Well either way it's a pretty sure lock with Bridge + Lattice out and even adding 1-2 counters per turn to Ballista will do it.

@Cire: Yeah that is encouraging that it can still goldfish quickly. I just wouldn't assume the turn 5s are losses or that lack of turn 1s is bad. It's trying to accomplish a different thing. What does your current build look like?

[Reeplcheep]

This is probably pretty crazy, but this is a deck that likes artifacts, wants to play emry & teferi, and always has access to a 3 cmc legendary.

This seems like it could be a pretty awesome amber mox deck. You just need a legendary that is a infinite mana outlet, and guess what thrasious works. Thrasious is also decent with a fair fox.

Possible list:
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Grim Monolith
1 Savannah
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Tundra
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Forest
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Lotus Petal
1 Magma Mine
2 Flooded Strand
3 Isochron Scepter
3 Mox Amber
4 Thrasios, Triton Hero
2 Veil of Summer
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath

[Reeplcheep]

Alternatively 12 blue legendaries makes fow playable probably.

Decklist here:

4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Grim Monolith
1 Savannah
3 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mox Opal
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Tundra
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Forest
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
1 Magma Mine
2 Flooded Strand
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Mox Amber
3 Thrasios, Triton Hero
4 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Windswept Heath

This deck is not too fast but has a crazy amount of protection (4 silence, 4 fow, 4 teferi)

[Cire]

Oh right, Daze works but FoW doesn't. Well either way it's a pretty sure lock with Bridge + Lattice out and even adding 1-2 counters per turn to Ballista will do it.

@Cire: Yeah that is encouraging that it can still goldfish quickly. I just wouldn't assume the turn 5s are losses or that lack of turn 1s is bad. It's trying to accomplish a different thing. What does your current build look like?

I've been working with the below at the moment:

10 U fetchs
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Snow-covered island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tundra

3 Karn

3 Hangerback Walker

4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Basalt Monolith

4 Brainstorm
4 Fow
4 Pact of Negation
3 Daze
3 Orim's Chant
2 Ponder

SB-
Companion - Zidra
1 Lattice
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Hangerback Walker
11?

[morgan_coke]

Quick question about the Companion on this card. Don't the lands need to have some activated ability since it says "Permanent Card" and not "nonland permanent"?

So like, aren't all of these lists ineligible? I think the filter lands from OTJ and from Lorwyn work though.

[PirateKing]

Quick question about the Companion on this card. Don't the lands need to have some activated ability since it says "Permanent Card" and not "nonland permanent"?

So like, aren't all of these lists ineligible? I think the filter lands from OTJ and from Lorwyn work though.

305.6. The basic land types are Plains, Island, Swamp, Mountain, and Forest. If an object uses the words “basic land type,” it’s referring to one of these subtypes. A land with a basic land type has the intrinsic ability “Mana Tap: Add [mana symbol] to your mana pool,” even if the text box doesn’t actually contain that text or the object has no text box.

[Cire]

Quick question about the Companion on this card. Don't the lands need to have some activated ability since it says "Permanent Card" and not "nonland permanent"?

So like, aren't all of these lists ineligible? I think the filter lands from OTJ and from Lorwyn work though.

Most lands tap for mana which is an activated ability.

edit- ninja'd

[morgan_coke]

Well, I'm dumb then, carry on.

[Wanderlust]

In the mono-R all-in list, I've been thinking about some number of Daretti, Scrap Savant. The overall idea of then deck, then, is to just overload their counterspells and artifact removal by repeatedly jamming a monolith, a Karn to get a monolith, or a Daretti to recur a dead monolith, and then once a monolith finally sticks, to use Cavern to cast Zirda with enough mana up to win through removal. Unlike Goblin Engineer/Welder, it's immune to creature removal and can win the game the turn you draw it in top-deck mode. So in the OP list, just -3 Pyroblast, +3 Daretti?

Also, in testing against decks rather then just goldfishing, Retrofitter Foundry has actually been okay at grinding out some games, especially in multiples, so I've been liking running 4x of those.

Finally: I've been liking 1x Defense Grid as a Karn target in the board.

[FTW]

Finally: I've been liking 1x Defense Grid as a Karn target in the board.

Do you ever have a position where you resolve Karn and get to resolve the artifact you find with it but aren't already ahead?

Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge and Mycosynth Lattice are my targets outside of the combo. 3sphere stops things on their turn too. Yet I don't think I've gotten it once. If I have Karn, I'm less worried about resolving spells (what DGrid helps) than surviving what's on the board (Bridge) or just winning (Lattice/combo).

Daretti's interesting. What are the minimal requirements to win with it in topdeck mode? 3RRR + an artifact? It does save you some mana compared to Karn.

[Wanderlust]

Do you ever have a position where you resolve Karn and get to resolve the artifact you find with it but aren't already ahead?

I've come across cases where I have 2 mana up after resolving Karn, ie., not enough for Basalt Monolith this turn. It's nice to have a way to protect the monolith the following turn in that scenario.

[Tobitzki]

I just spent a while following Tobitzki's lead towards maximal speed and redundancy while still having some protection.

OK @Wanderlust, I think I've come around to mono R for speed, incl. Karns and that fun-of Daretti.

Jesus, this thing is fast. My adjusted list even makes a few concessions for a post-board Chalice plan (XX-robots over Magma Mine) and yet:

20 (pre-board) Goldfishes:

T1: 5 (25%) 4x no mull, 1x mull to 6
T2: 10 (50%) -- 6x Hope-protected (!!) 6x no mull, 4x mull to 6
T3: 1 (could've been T4 + Hope) mull to 5
T4: 2 -- no mull (bad play?)
T5: 2 (i.e. taking calculated risks and fizzling) 1x no mull, 1x mull to 6

(I suspect these were a bit on the lucky side, but still.)

List:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2916442#paper

Running Ballista, Hangarback and Foundry over Magma Mine for non-combo functionality, especially postboard (a single MM remains in the side as a Karn target)

G2-3 this thing can pivot into: +4 Chalice, +3 Blood Moon, +1 Fox, +2 Big Chandra | - 4 Hope, - 3 Foundry, - X
for a little Dragon Stompy action while still threatening combo.

[Wanderlust]

After some testing, I think that Experimental Frenzy might just be better than Daretti in the mono-R all-in lists. Unlike Daretti, Frenzy can act as yet another mana sink under the combo (an inconsistent one, admittedly) and Frenzy is conditionally a better top-deck late game.


OK @Wanderlust, I think I've come around to mono R for speed, incl. Karns and that fun-of Daretti.

Jesus, this thing is fast. My adjusted list even makes a few concessions for a post-board Chalice plan (XX-robots over Magma Mine) and yet:

20 (pre-board) Goldfishes:

T1: 5 (25%) 4x no mull, 1x mull to 6
T2: 10 (50%) -- 6x Hope-protected (!!) 6x no mull, 4x mull to 6
T3: 1 (could've been T4 + Hope) mull to 5
T4: 2 -- no mull (bad play?)
T5: 2 (i.e. taking calculated risks and fizzling) 1x no mull, 1x mull to 6

(I suspect these were a bit on the lucky side, but still.)

List:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2916442#paper

Running Ballista, Hangarback and Foundry over Magma Mine for non-combo functionality, especially postboard (a single MM remains in the side as a Karn target)

G2-3 this thing can pivot into: +4 Chalice, +3 Blood Moon, +1 Fox, +2 Big Chandra | - 4 Hope, - 3 Foundry, - X
for a little Dragon Stompy action while still threatening combo.

Nice results there! I also suspect some luck, but it's still a promising sign for sure!

Big Chandra in the sideboard is appealing even without the whole Dragon Stompy transformation. Excellent suggestion. As far as the interesting transformation idea: I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what matchups that's really good against and where you'd just stick with the combo plan.

Edit: Chandra's -3 ability doesn't even kill Mr. Fox. Besties :laugh:

[FTW]

That monored list looks good. Very close to the list I tested goldfishing and against Delver.

Backup Zirdas main is a good idea. In real games I was getting wrecked if they had an answer to my Companion. It also lets you board in stuff like Chalice, breaking the Companion rule, while still keeping the combo in the deck. Defense Grid works for that plan too, both as a Karn target and to board in.

Is Hangarback Walker any good? I think these "pass the turn" wincons are just waiting to be wrecked by Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Tendrils of Agony, Marit Lage, Ensnaring Bridge, etc... Walking Ballista + Karn is already 8 "win this turn" wincons. Foundry gives you 3 more that already depend on passing the turn. Are even more wincons needed?

Maybe
-2 Hangarback
+1 Walking Ballista
+1 Cavern of Souls / Mox Opal

Daretti might be better as something else too. At 4 cmc we already have 4xKarn as an engine. Seems like the deck needs gas lower in the curve instead.

[Cire]

The vintage world also seems to be testing with Zidra (http://www.themanadrain.com/topic/3123/iko-zirda-the-dawnwaker/20)

Interesting win con mentioned was Spawnsire of Ulamog (into Sideboarded Eldrazi). This could mean transformational sb into S&T?

[FTW]

What does Spawnsire add? Once you have infinite mana you just need a card that says "if I have infinite mana, win the game". Any mana sink will do.

Spawnsire is a manasink but requires more slots used in the SB to function. At the very least 1 Emrakul to take an extra turn, probably Ulamog too to destroy things like Karakas and Ensnaring Bridge. Why use up 3 slots when 1 card would do?

[Cire]

What does Spawnsire add? Once you have infinite mana you just need a card that says "if I have infinite mana, win the game". Any mana sink will do.

Spawnsire is a manasink but requires more slots used in the SB to function. At the very least 1 Emrakul to take an extra turn, probably Ulamog too to destroy things like Karakas and Ensnaring Bridge. Why use up 3 slots when 1 card would do?

I think it's a vintage idea to deal with the fact that they can't run more than 1 Karn, which should speak to the correctness of running Karn. As for what Spawnsire would add compared to other win-cons, you hit the nail on the head - if opponent has a troublesome perm in play you can Ulamog it. Just spying on the vintage community to see if they have other ideas that we can steal.

[FTW]

Right, but the irony is those troublesome permanents I named don't even stop the Ballista/Mine wincon. They're extra obstacles you have to remove to win with Eldrazi that you wouldn't care about otherwise. Using Spawnsire forces you to remove even more hate.

Karn can also find answers. I think with 4x Karn we don't need it. Also Vintage has Channel, which makes Eldrazi more tempting outside the combo.

Their list also uses things like Time Vault/Key and Paradoxical Outcome+Moxes. Vintage has other tricks we can't use.

[Cire]

Right, but the irony is those troublesome permanents I named don't even stop the Ballista/Mine wincon. They're extra obstacles you have to remove to win with Eldrazi that you wouldn't care about otherwise. Using Spawnsire forces you to remove even more hate.

Karn can also find answers. I think with 4x Karn we don't need it. Also Vintage has Channel, which makes Eldrazi more tempting outside the combo.

Their list also uses things like Time Vault/Key and Paradoxical Outcome+Moxes. Vintage has other tricks we can't use.

Yup - that is why my legacy list is pretty simple. One thing though, just like in Breach the more I test the more cantrips I want to run. My edits to the list from 04-10-2020, 05:19 PM, I think would be -2 PON, -1 Daze, -1 Astrolab, -1 Snow-Covered Island, +2 Ponder, +3 Preordain

[FTW]

Yup - that is why my legacy list is pretty simple. One thing though, just like in Breach the more I test the more cantrips I want to run. My edits to the list from 04-10-2020, 05:19 PM, I think would be -2 PON, -1 Daze, -1 Astrolab, -1 Snow-Covered Island, +2 Ponder, +3 Preordain

Oh yeah, my cantrip build is similar to yours but had
0 PON
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

The cantrips are big for consistency, especially finding postboard answers.

I think PON is bad here. 1-2 copies were good in Breach mainly because of the ability to cast for free from the graveyard. Here it could easily lead to a game loss, e.g. if the Karn activation gets Stifled and you have to pass the turn.

[Wanderlust]

I've been thinking a bit more about the mono-R all in list: really no reason not to play 1x Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep in place of a mountain for random occasions where giving Mr. Fox or Hope of Ghirapur first strike is relevant.

[Lemon]

Looked for some alternative win conditions.

Mill:
Ambassador Laquatus
Mindshrieker
Whetstone

Damage:
Goblin Cannon
Magma Mine
Walking Ballista

Infinite 4/4s or 1/1 flyers:
Retrofitter Foundry

Cast any card in your library:
Urza, Lord High Artificer


Urza might be kind of nice, but I think Walking Ballista is still probably our best bet since it seems to have the most utility outside of the combo.

[Cire]

Looked for some alternative win conditions.

Mill:
Ambassador Laquatus
Mindshrieker
Whetstone

Damage:
Goblin Cannon
Magma Mine
Walking Ballista

Infinite 4/4s or 1/1 flyers:
Retrofitter Foundry

Cast any card in your library:
Urza, Lord High Artificer


Urza might be kind of nice, but I think Walking Ballista is still probably our best bet since it seems to have the most utility outside of the combo.

You forgot Karn, the Great Creator.

Generally, the win con needs to be colorless because otherwise you're adding mana required for the combo (since the monoliths/Zidra only produces infinite colorless mana). So while Urza would be great, that's an additional UU to combo off.

[ano_2k]

i have a bant urza karn oko list:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2919649#online

[FTW]

Yeah I have to agree with Cire. Colored ones slow down your critical turn by adding additional mana requirements. The R/W R/W part is already the bottleneck. The deck only requires 2 R/W R/W to win the game.

Karn is the best wincon and should be a 4x in all lists. Why?
1) It serves the basic function of "infinite colorless mana: win the game", via anything like 1x Ballista in the SB.
2) It has text outside the combo turn, finding combo pieces or protection or Lattice.
3) In case you can't win (e.g. Leyline of Sanctity), you can still grab Lattice and be far enough ahead that you should be able to find some way to win from there.

After that, the 2nd best is a toss-up between Ballista and Magma Mine
Ballista: Can be uncounterable via Cavern of Souls. Has text outside the combo, e.g. cast for X=2, chump something and ping X/1 and X/2 dorks.
Mine: Can be easily cast pre-combo to turn on Mox Opal and Lion's Eye Diamond

I prefer Mine in the all-in build and Ballista in the grindier one.

Other wincons like Goblin Cannon and Whetstone could work but have fewer relevant usecases than Karn, Mine and Ballista.

[FTW]

i have a bant urza karn oko list:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2919649#online

From my experience trying StP main in similar A+B combo decks (Zirda, Thought Lash, Breach), I think Ponder is much better maindeck than StP. Removal might have value in the SB, but most of the time you want to accelerate towards your own threat rather than lose a card and tempo to remove theirs.

[Cire]

Minor edit - so I've been running 3 Walking Ballista and 3 Karn with the intention of having 1 SB Walking Ballista, but you could always just have SB Goblin Cannon/Magma Mine. FTW, as someone else who has been running the UW list do you think we should fit in the 4th Ballista in the MD? So far I have no issue in test runs of assembling the combo.

Also note - the Spawnsire (ulamogSB) kill can get through Leyline if that becomes an issue for whatever reason.

[Wanderlust]

A couple of interesting takes on Zirda in this Joe Dyer article:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-here-there-be-monsters-part-2

I'm baffled by the lack of a monolith in the board as a Karn target in both decks.

Edit: Initially I was skeptical of Liquimetal Coating, but I do like opening up as many lines with Karn as possible. In the builds that make a lot of mana, it's easy enough to go Karn>Liquimetal and then destroy a land every subsequent turn.

[Nossman3]

https://imgur.com/a/Ws7QXrv


So basically, this is the shell :wu: i came up with and i feel it has a lot of potential; sideboard needs to be trimmed and maybe we could substitute leds with astrolabes and get snow basic (also -1 seat) if we wish for consistency (labe + teferi synergy) over speed (led+emry),sideboard needs to be trimmed. Also, i'd love to give the deck a different name cause the one i picked sounds cool af to me

[Mantis]

Cool ideas.

This is what I came up with based on some of the ideas in this thread:

// 60 Maindeck
// 22 Artifact
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Magma Mine

// 13 Creature
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Goblin Welder
1 Walking Ballista

// 21 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Volcanic Island
4 Great Furnace
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, the Great Creator


// 15 Sideboard
// 8 Artifact
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Liquimetal Coating
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Basalt Monolith
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Lion's Eye Diamond

// 4 Creature
SB: 1 Walking Ballista
SB: 1 Zirda
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre

// 3 Instant
SB: 3 Abrade


30 games of goldfishing yieled me the following results: T1 kill: 4 games, T2 kill 9 games, T3 kill 16 games and T4 kill in 1 game. Although the results are quite impressive, the deck lacks protection so perhaps playing Hope of Ghirapur or FoW is ultimately necessary. A longer game can be played with Karn. Perhaps a big artifact with an activated ability should be in the maindeck to provide some alternate form of win condition (Clockwork Dragon or something?) that can be abused with the Welders.

[FTW]

Minor edit - so I've been running 3 Walking Ballista and 3 Karn with the intention of having 1 SB Walking Ballista, but you could always just have SB Goblin Cannon/Magma Mine. FTW, as someone else who has been running the UW list do you think we should fit in the 4th Ballista in the MD? So far I have no issue in test runs of assembling the combo.

Oh, yeah I've been running 4 Karn and 4 Ballista main, with 1 Mine in the SB.

Ballista has been useful to hardcast in games. It can ping Delver, Young Pyromancer, Thalia...

There were games where I got disrupted badly but was beating down with a 2/2 Ballista to still clock them, and you can use extra Monoliths and sol lands to add more counters. It's enough of a threat that it draws removal or can chump block them, while they spend all their resources stopping the combo, and then you still get to remove counters and ping.

Magma Mine can also accumulate counters for a win. In a different built with maindeck Mines I won one game against Delver where I slowly added Mine counters and killed them, but then I lost another where I had Mine @ 5 (them at 5 life) and had it Stifled. With Ballista at least it's also a body in combat and you can't Stifle all the damage.

[bruizar]

Can we please stop calling the fox Fantastic Mr. Fox and start calling it Power Artifox? Much more descriptive

[Cire]

FTW: What's the UW list you're currently running? Also have you experimented yet with a Bant list that jams Oko in the MD as well?

[contra]

Here's my UW xerox list:

4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Walking Ballista
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Daze
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Zirda, the Dawnwaker

1 Basalt Monolith
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Walking Ballista
2 Deafening Silence
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker

[Cire]

Given MD Ancient Tomb and given MD Zidra and Teferi do you miss/want Astrolab? Additionally, how do you find MD Zidra? How often is the Companion disrupted/countered?

[FTW]

FTW: What's the UW list you're currently running? Also have you experimented yet with a Bant list that jams Oko in the MD as well?

I tried both a Snowko list (Astrolabe + Oko + Teferi) and one that just ran more redundant combo pieces. I found there wasn't really room for both, and having more redundant combo pieces was leading to faster wins.


UW XerFox

//Spells: 21
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Cavern of Souls

//Artifacts: 8
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
2 Basalt Monolith

//Planeswalkers: 7
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Spells: 20
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Orim's Chant

//Creatures: 4
4 Walking Ballista

//Sideboard: 14
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wear // Tear
1 Echoing Truth
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Cannon
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Mycosynth Lattice

//Companion: 1
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker


Teferi is really good. Not sure if cutting it for Oko would be worth it, and they fight for the same spot on the curve.

I tried testing 2 Isochron Scepter maindeck (with a 3rd Chant). Sometimes it was really good. Once I just bluffed and imprinted Brainstorm. But the combo takes up a lot of mana (3 mana to cast kicked, 4 through Thalia). After one game of Chanting a Delver 13 turns in a row without ever drawing a 4th mana source (I had to pitch my Teferi to FoW to resolve Scepter, then got 2x Bolted to 4), I ended up losing to a 3rd Bolt while never being able to play Magic myself either. I would have won if I just let the Scepter get countered, kept the Chant in hand, and cast Teferi. But by the time I got Scepter through I was too low in life to allow another Delver attack, so I had to keep Chanting him. The low life also turned off Ancient Tomb mana, which made it awkward to both keep activating Scepter and be able to cast a Monolith. Then fetches and FoW got awkward. There's an awkward tension there. That soured me a bit on the Scepter combo. It just takes up a lot of mana while our core combo also takes up a lot of mana, so it's hard to Scepter lock them and then still assemble a win in less than 10 turns, giving them way too much time to interact with Instants. Scepter+Chant is very good with a resolved Teferi... but so is Monolith+Chant! If we have Chant and Teferi, then we can just combo off. Scepter seems like the definition of lose-less.

There are some weird choices like the 1-of Cavern. That slot used to be a 3rd Plains, but the 3rd Plains was only ever relevant for Zirda so it might as well be Cavern. Sometimes you can name Construct instead of Fox.

I had 2x Scalding Tarn and 2x Island before, but just went for the 3rd Island to have a better shot in longer games.

Volcanic Island's red mana can cast Zirda, so it's a functional Tundra that also lets me splash Wear // Tear and REB. Other splashes don't synergize as well with Zirda mana. And yes, colored sources for Zirda matter. Between needing basic Island to cast cantrips and dropping Ancient Tomb to accelerate Monoliths, having enough red/white sources in play is a limiting factor. Extraneous splashes into non-Zirda colors (black or green) hurt the mana stability more.

Astrolabe is good for filtering, e.g. Monolith mana can be used for the 2nd white for Zirda. I've gone back and forth between 2-3. It also helps cast Teferi off Tomb mana.

Another build I tried had 3 Lotus Petal. I've moved away from that. It speeds up the clock a bit, so it's good in some matches, but the card disadvantage hurts in fair matches. I was testing a lot of blue mirrors and got sick of my opponent using Daze to bait my Petals. But in other matches you might need it to race. My deck choices might be biased from overtesting against RUG Delver, UR Delver and Snowko.

The primary wincon of Zirda->Walking Ballista cannot be stopped by Flusterstorm, Force of Negation, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Veil of Summer, Dovin's Veto, or Stifle! Once you have a Monolith in play, none of those counters are live to stop the main kill. Only FoW. Other wincons like Magma Mine are vulnerable to more counters. That's relevant. The more answers we turn off, the less hate there is to fight through.

Removal like Bolt, StP, Decay, Push and friends can all be stopped by floating extra mana. It's good practice to try to go off with at least 2 extra mana open or a full shield (Chant/Teferi). The extra mana also nullifies stuff like Daze. Forcing them to hold up double Bolt or Decay all the time really slows down their clock too.

Again, with Zirda+Ballista Deafening Silence, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Chalice of the Void, and Trinisphere don't even affect the combo turn. Deafening Silence and Chalice @ 1 do prevent Karn into Magma Mine. Postboard it's probably wise to board out -1 Ballista for +1 answer, also leaving Ballista as a Karn target.

There are cases where getting disrupted mid-combo really hurts, so I like catch-all protection like Teferi and Chant.

Edit: I switched from Magma Mine in the SB to Goblin Cannon so I don't lose to Chalice of the Void@1 or Stifle.
I almost never use Karn to find Monolith, so that slot might be better as Ensnaring Bridge.

[FTW]

4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Walking Ballista
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Daze
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Zirda, the Dawnwaker


Your deck looks really similar.

What are your thoughts on Daze? I ran 2 Daze for a while but it usually took me long enough to assemble the combo that Daze became irrelevant. Part of that was me playing around Daze myself or setting up Chant. It also hurt me to lose a land drop in a mana-hungry combo. What matchups was Daze good in?

I have FoN in the SB. Against some decks most of the interaction was happening on my turn. FoN seems better against permanent-based disruption like Karn.

Zirda main looks useful as a backup. How often was that relevant?

Edit: If I was to test Daze in my list I'd probably go
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Teferi
+3 Daze

[FTW]

Ok I just tested with Daze more and it's growing on me. You just have to be careful about land drops.
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 Teferi
+3 Daze

[Nossman3]

Legacy Grimfox Combo

3X Grim Monolith
1x Basal Monolith
4x Lotus Petal
3x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Mox Opal
4x Walking Ballista

3x Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3x Urza, Lord High Artificer
4x Karn, the Great Creator
2x Teferi, Time Raveler

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
1x Sevinne's Reclamation

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Flooded Strand
1x Prismatic Vista
2x Island
2x Plains
1xTundra
4x Seat of Synod
1x Karakas

SB
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Walking Ballista
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Liquimetal Coating
1x Mycosinth Lattice
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Zirda, the Dawnwaker
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Flusterstomr
1x Force of Negation
1X Cast Away/Seal of Cleansing


The deck is made moslty by 4 type of cards: mana producer, mana sinks, redundancy/protection and cantrips. Some slots have hybrid behaviour such as Karn and Emry; the reason why i play Led is not only the boost in speed but also the ability to avoid having monolith down one turn before comboing. It also enables a lot of possible turn 2 kills or combo around removal by adding mana to activate monolith twice and is incredibly good with Sevinne,Emry, Urza and Karn (or a combination of those).
Beating the hate is a matter of how we prepare our gameplan: in some cases going fast helps against non blue decks (or mostly zenith based) to find a solution to our combo, another reason to run Lion's. We don't really care about creature removal unless we are planning a line that involves casting Zirda directly off Led (instead of using it to activate untap ability), in which case if your sink is a creature you might be susceptible to removal spell, but that is easily handled by playing around it (also using karn as sink) or using Teferi/Emry as protection. Shatter effects are as well easy to overcome; the combo can be broken by casting decay (for example) with zirda on the stack, but you can use emry,sevinne or chain monoliths in order to add redundancy or directly force or teferi as protection.You can also play mind tricking with both balista and monolith by keeping the second in hand and force the removal on the wrong piece. Normal lock pieces do not stop you (chalice on 2 is a bit annoying but is quite slow and affects only 3 slots), tax effect slow you down but ,with tomb and all the mana producers you have, you can easily overcome it. Probably null rod effects are the thoughest to deal with, and the general advice is that they are a must counter; you could lean on teferi to bounce ouphe and rod, but karn has to be beaten down and ,unless you can cast Urza, is pretty hard ( don't understimate the zirda combat shenanigans tho). Beating counter depends on what are you planning to deal with, you can force through daze pierce and fow by proper sequencing, overflooding with mana and/or using protection/redundancy to beat hardcounters. Discard effects are a bit thougher especially when exiling (Thought Knot Seer), the best thing you can do if you can't use redundancy is to use cantrips properly or land a monolith and hope it sticks until you find a sink. Needle effect are also beatable in several ways; you can use the other piece of the combo (basalt monolith or grim) or the other sink (urza or ballista), bounce it and in some niche scenarios you can animate with karn to ping them or sword the post side. Don forget that also Karn represent a mana producer (led/basalt), a mana sink (balista),several B-plans (mycosinth/liquimetal) and also incidental hate (rod effect/bridge/canonist/tormod).

The deck is full of tricks you can perform and i feel that if piloted correctly can be really really good; other versions prefer astrolabes over led for the teferi engine and grind but i think led is a natural inculsion when playing companions and (aside for force of will maybe) it is synergic with everything we are playing with. There are a lot of tricks i came up with testing the deck and i feel the skill ceiling, i would love to write a primer down for this version but i have no place to write it :confused:

[FTW]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Urza was discussed a few pages back but I don't think anyone's tried it. The UU seemed limiting, but you can make up for it using LEDs for Zirda. In general Urza + Emry looks strong and adds power to the deck outside the combo. Emry gives you more recursion lines for artifacts too.



We don't really care about creature removal unless we are planning a line that involves casting Zirda directly off Led (instead of using it to activate untap ability)

What about Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares on Zirda or Abrupt Decay on Zirda or Grim Monolith? They will respond to the first untap activation. To beat that you need to float an extra 2 and untap again. They can also respond a second time with a second spell (Bolt x2, Stifle, etc) and it breaks the combo unless you have even more mana. I had that come up in testing. Basalt Monolith helps beat those lines because it only takes 1 for each untap, enabling easier multiple untaps, but it's slower to deploy.

We have lines to play around it. Just pointing out that creature removal is relevant.

[Nossman3]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Urza was discussed a few pages back but I don't think anyone's tried it. The UU seemed limiting, but you can make up for it using LEDs for Zirda. In general Urza + Emry looks strong and adds power to the deck outside the combo. Emry gives you more recursion lines for artifacts too.



What about Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares on Zirda or Abrupt Decay on Zirda or Grim Monolith? They will respond to the first untap activation. To beat that you need to float an extra 2 and untap again. They can also respond a second time with a second spell (Bolt x2, Stifle, etc) and it breaks the combo unless you have even more mana. I had that come up in testing. Basalt Monolith helps beat those lines because it only takes 1 for each untap, enabling easier multiple untaps, but it's slower to deploy.

We have lines to play around it. Just pointing out that creature removal is relevant.


Creature removal is relevant unless you have mana to float with. This is close to how storm beats dazes pierces and flusterstorm, it's obvious that if they play several interaction your most likely to be dead but you can count the mana to understand what he's about to do. Led indeed works as a pseudo protection beccause it allow you to untap basalt three times and grim 1.5 times. This means that if we cast zirda with gim monolith plus double w and float double colorless our led and mana provide protection against double removal,three with another mana float; I am running grim monolith beccause they ramp the turn they come down and you can chain them to reach extra mana enabling powerful plays like turn 2 karn &co. It is Worth to mention that also karakas can be used as a pseudo protection with led,since you can crack led in response to removal and bounce zirda to recast it paying 1 + Led. You have sevinne that might let you cast zirda form yard (easily twice with led), teferi for protection and Urza is both a sink and a mana producer beside being a solid plan B that doesnt fall under Decay/Bolt and gets value as soon it hits the field. As i said, there are a lot of different lines but the thing i wanted to mention as "you dont care about removal" was that a single removal is naturally beaten by the mana produced (daze against storm is the best example), not that you should'nt play around it. Also, remember that ,since the more mana you get the more likely you're about to beat most removal spells so your op has to do the first step to victory or you could reach a critical mass of interaction+mana.

EDIT: if you think you need more protection for the combo itself you might run sideboard voltaic key to take off karn but honestly i don't feel is necessary, it slows you down an extra turn, tho could be interesting for quick mycosinth and liquimetal porting interaction.

[Cire]

I just don't think that the Emry list runs enough protection? The combo is vulnerable to almost any type of instant speed disruption which requires at least one protection spell going off or landing T3feri the turn before. Given that decks that run such disruption (UW decks) run enough that you will face at least 2 such disruption cards by turn 3 seems like you want way more that just 8 protection pieces?

Edit - also speaking of Sevinne's Reclamation, reminds me of Intuition for LED/Breach/Sevinne's Reclamation. Obviously we can't make a similar pile for this deck but anyway to make a pile work with Gifts Ungiven? Trying to build around it.

Assume you have 3U:
EOT opponents turn Gifts Ungiven for:
1 Grim Monolith
1 Karn
1 Argivian Find
1 Walking Ballista
Opponent gives you Karn and Argivian Find
Assume you have 2(w/r)(w/r)W mana on your turn
Your turn Argivian Find --> Grim Monolith --> Zidra + Win.

Testing the below Snow-Ko list to see if Gifts could free up space. Yes it does mean the deck is much slower, but wondering if it can't just be a control deck with an odd fast combo.

//Spells: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

//Artifacts: 7
4 Grim Monolith
3 Arcum's Astrolabe

//Planeswalkers: 8
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Karn, the Great Creator

//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Preordain
1 Orim's Chant
1 Veil of Summer
1 Argivian Find

//Creatures: 1
1 Walking Ballista

//Companion: 1
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker

Lots of draw power in the above so even without the redundancy and the EOT gifts you get the combo pretty frequently in goldfishing. At this point wondering if Oko and MD Swords for it to playact as a control deck makes any sense.

[FTW]

The Gifts line is interesting.

Not having to run Basalt Monolith and so many Karns and Ballistas seems amazing. The average draw quality improves a lot. The redundant copies seemed like necessary evils (without them I would spend forever cantripping into nothing only to die to 2 1/1s), but you can also draw into 4 Monoliths and durdle around awkwardly. Those games are hard to win.

Could you replace Argivian Find with Sevinne's Reclamation? For 2W it puts Grim Monolith in play, so it doesn't cost any more mana on the combo turn, and it opens up more lines outside the combo turn. If you get disrupted (e.g. double Bolt), Sevinne can be flashed back to return Zirda and something else.

Is there an Intuition pile that works with Sevinne's Reclamation?
e.g. If you have 1 of the following 4 cards, does Intuition for the other 3 win the game?

Sevinne's Reclamation
Lion's Eye Diamond
Grim Monolith
Magma Mine
LED could be useful to cast Zirda too.

[Cire]

Yep, you definitely can replace find with reclamation. Not sure about intuition as Gifts essentially is a one card combo, while intuition will only act like a search piece for your two card combo and does not really let you reduce the amount of combo cards you run.

[FTW]

Yep, you definitely can replace find with reclamation. Not sure about intuition as Gifts essentially is a one card combo, while intuition will only act like a search piece for your two card combo and does not really let you reduce the amount of combo cards you run.

Yeah, the main advantage of Intuition is 3cc is easier to push through Daze/Wasteland/Pierce and Thalia/Wasteland/Port.

It can also be used to directly tutor for 3x Monolith, 3x Teferi, 3x Oko or 3x Wincon (2 Karn + 1 Ballista).


Edit: Oh I like this new build. Oko is too good not to play.
LED/Sevinne plays well with Teferi and Oko.

[Cire]

Edit: Oh I like this new build. Oko is too good not to play.
LED/Sevinne plays well with Teferi and Oko.

Playtest for a bit between Intuition/Gifts ungiven and lets see if we can make Snoko-fox work :smile:

[FTW]

I'm testing this right now.

Although it can't find the whole combo at once, it does have some very powerful Intuition lines including finding 3-ofs or singleton piles with Orim's Chant (opponent doesn't know if we're bluffing or not).


//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Forest

//Artifacts: 10
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Magma Mine
3 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith
1 Walking Ballista

//Planeswalkers: 7
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Karn, the Great Creator

//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Veil of Summer
1 Orim's Chant
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
2 Intuition

//Sideboard: 15
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Walking Ballista
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Return to Nature
1 Wear // Tear
1 Echoing Truth
1 Force of Negation
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Veil of Summer
1 Orim's Chant
1 Terminus


I like what Sevinne's and Oko add to the deck.

Intuition doesn't find everything at once, but we often don't need it to. It's a grindier plan.
Could probably get away with +1 Intuition/Gifts, -1 Monolith.

[Cire]

Intuition doesn't find everything at once, but we often don't need it to. It's a grindier plan.
Could probably get away with +1 Intuition/Gifts, -1 Monolith.

Given that this is brand new line for this deck I think we'll need to test Intuition vs. Gifts for a little bit to see what is better. Not only that we could also consider running BOTH ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Nossman3]

I just don't think that the Emry list runs enough protection? The combo is vulnerable to almost any type of instant speed disruption which requires at least one protection spell going off or landing T3feri the turn before. Given that decks that run such disruption (UW decks) run enough that you will face at least 2 such disruption cards by turn 3 seems like you want way more that just 8 protection pieces?

Edit - also speaking of Sevinne's Reclamation, reminds me of Intuition for LED/Breach/Sevinne's Reclamation. Obviously we can't make a similar pile for this deck but anyway to make a pile work with Gifts Ungiven? Trying to build around it.

Assume you have 3U:
EOT opponents turn Gifts Ungiven for:
1 Grim Monolith
1 Karn
1 Argivian Find
1 Walking Ballista
Opponent gives you Karn and Argivian Find
Assume you have 2(w/r)(w/r)W mana on your turn
Your turn Argivian Find --> Grim Monolith --> Zidra + Win.

Testing the below Snow-Ko list to see if Gifts could free up space. Yes it does mean the deck is much slower, but wondering if it can't just be a control deck with an odd fast combo.

//Spells: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

//Artifacts: 7
4 Grim Monolith
3 Arcum's Astrolabe

//Planeswalkers: 8
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Karn, the Great Creator

//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Preordain
1 Orim's Chant
1 Veil of Summer
1 Argivian Find

//Creatures: 1
1 Walking Ballista

//Companion: 1
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker

Lots of draw power in the above so even without the redundancy and the EOT gifts you get the combo pretty frequently in goldfishing. At this point wondering if Oko and MD Swords for it to playact as a control deck makes any sense.

Emry works a protection for monolith and balista if you have to cast before craking led, it also loops led for karn sidewish and with karakas digs for combo elements. You need four mana to play around double removal and is pretty easy when runnign 3x emrys and 3x leds; also with emry down you can pass with monolith since you dont really care about op cracking it unless it has removal also for emry and same goes for balista. If you worry about zirda itself you just have to net extra mana and emry does exactly this since she comes down turn one as a pseudo mana dork. Talking about teferi, since you play grim monolith there are some lines to cast it the same turn you combo off monolith mana, bounce it back to net an extra 1 play led than go off; as I said before, your mana works as a protection during the combo, you need to net 1-2 mana extra for each removal you expect op to have, and Grims Petal Led (even in side) and Urza are exactly meant to do that aside from force of wills and sevinnes. I think it is way better to combo an average 2.5 being slightly less protected since you might consider that if your fast enough your opponent might not have enough mana to cast both removals, maybe he cast astrolabe or cantrips to find them; speed is clear competitve value in a lot of scenario and i think playin a control deck with things like orims chant is worse than palying a combo deck with haymakers.

[Wanderlust]

Edit: I switched from Magma Mine in the SB to Goblin Cannon so I don't lose to Chalice of the Void@1 or Stifle.

My only problem with Goblin Cannon is Gaddock Teeg which does still see some play. Why not just Staff of Domination instead? You can then draw into Ballista to win.

[FTW]

My only problem with Goblin Cannon is Gaddock Teeg which does still see some play. Why not just Staff of Domination instead? You can then draw into Ballista to win.

It's a non-issue in the latest builds because there are fewer than 4 Ballistas main and room for 1 in the SB. But if you do play 4 Ballistas main then you could play Staff over Cannon.

Anyway how are you resolving Karn, the Great Creator through Gaddock Teeg? Cannon is there as a Karn target when Karn is your wincon. I guess Staff does work if you cast Karn earlier and still need a wincon.

Something to note. If you're playing on MTGO instead of paper, a Staff win involves a significant amount of tedious clicking. Each draw takes 6 mana if Zirda's dead, 4 mana with Zirda alive.

The combo is already tedious. With Grim Monolith, each loop only produces 1 mana.
For Ballista X=20, you need 40 mana = 40 loops.
For Karn into Walking Ballista X=20, you need 4 + 40 = 44 mana = 44 loops
For Karn into Goblin Cannon for 20, you need 4 + 4 + 40 = 48 mana = 48 loops
For Karn into Magma Mine for 20, you need 4 + 1 + 80 = 85 mana = 85 loops
For Karn into Staff of Domination to draw 40 cards and cast Ballista X=20, you need to float 207-287 mana = 207-287 loops (~1000 clicks)

You might need to float all the mana upfront (e.g. if there's a Bolt on the stack at Zirda), and you would need to float enough mana to activate Staff at the unreduced cost and draw most of your deck in case your wincon is near the bottom. That's a lot of clicking! In paper it's not a big deal but on MTGO it is.

Now those numbers will vary on factors like the opponent's life and playing around disruption, but it gives a good ballpark of how much more effort some kills take. Magma Mine is twice as much effort as Goblin Cannon, and Staff is several times more. Ballista is the most efficient and also faces the least hate.

[Wanderlust]

Anyway how are you resolving Karn, the Great Creator through Gaddock Teeg? Cannon is there as a Karn target when Karn is your wincon. I guess Staff does work if you cast Karn earlier and still need a wincon.

Right. Gaddock Teeg could come down after Karn in certain scenarios: for example, maybe you have a hand that doesn't make enough red/white mana to cast Zirda but is otherwise solid. You might need to Karn -2 for Lion's Eye Diamond the turn Karn comes down and then -2 again the next turn for a win condition to kill them under the combo. Granted, if we are looking at corner cases, then Staff of Domination gets partially nerfed by Narset, Parter of Veils and similar effects.

I agree with your assessment that Walking Ballista is the most efficient kill and runs into the least hate. I think it's enough of a wishboard upgrade over the other options that it's almost never right to play 4x Ballista in the main.

Also, thanks for taking the time to explain the amount of clicks this combo would take on MTGO. While I don't use that platform and don't plan to warp my deckbuilding to accommodate its idiosyncrasies, I'm sure others who need to do so will find your work helpful.

Edit: One scenario that just occurred to me is that it might make sense to board out a Magma Mine (at least in lists running mine main) against decks that might think they can pull a fast one on us by naming Ballista with Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker.

[FTW]

Yeah in paper it's fine. You can shortcut and use any manasink you like.

MTGO is just weird that way about "infinite" combos. You can't shortcut loops. The clock keeps ticking as you select all the targets and resolve the stack, so the clock becomes a relevant resource for combo decks. To tap and untap Monolith 200 times and then Staff through your deck one by one... you'd have to be a keyboard Wizard. Can't afford to waste 15 minutes executing the kill after they're already dead on board.




Edit: One scenario that just occurred to me is that it might make sense to board out a Magma Mine (at least in lists running mine main) against decks that might think they can pull a fast one on us by naming Ballista with Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker.

Yeah that could be a useful trick. Even with the older lists with 4 Ballista main, sometimes I boarded one out to have an extra Karn target. Karn lets you board cards out for utility.

One thing I love about the Oko lists is that Oko and Teferi can both answer a lot of hate like Needles. You can just Elk or bounce them. That forces them to divert resources towards answering your planeswalkers (e.g. counter wars over Teferi, Needle @ Oko) and then you can just go off. Oko is a really good distraction.

[Nossman3]

Yeah that could be a useful trick. Even with the older lists with 4 Ballista main, sometimes I boarded one out to have an extra Karn target. Karn lets you board cards out for utility.

One thing I love about the Oko lists is that Oko and Teferi can both answer a lot of hate like Needles. You can just Elk or bounce them. That forces them to divert resources towards answering your planeswalkers (e.g. counter wars over Teferi, Needle @ Oko) and then you can just go off. Oko is a really good distraction.

It makes a lot of sense to me to have the fourth balista in side esepciallly when running led in the starting 75

[H]

I don't have an exact list at the moment, but apparently two Zirda Bomberman decks made the top 8 of the Challenge this morning.

[FTW]

What about adapting this Urza-Echo Stompy list
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-04-14#_togno_st_place


//Creatures: 8
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Urza, Lord High Artificer

//Planeswalkers: 8
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Spells: 4
4 Echo of Eons

//Artifacts: 22
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Grim Monolith
1 Urza's Bauble
1 Magma Mine

//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tundra
3 Seat of the Synod

//Sideboard: 15
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Walking Ballista
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Echoing Truth
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Chalice of the Void


It gives the deck real legs to win outside of Zirda. Instead of protecting the combo, you have alternate wins through Narset+Echo, Karn+Lattice, and Urza.

If you have Grim Monolith, Zirda wincons include Karn->Ballista, Urza, and the 1-of Mine. If they stop Monolith or kill Zirda, it's no big deal, it was a free card taking up little deck space.

You could also board in cards like Chalice of the Void and Defense Grid and simply not reveal the Companion, since it's not the only win condition (board out: -4 Monolith, -1 Mine).

[Barook]

@FTW: Shouldn't the board contain at least one of the Monoliths as Karn target? What about Coating - too slow for this deck?

[Cire]

I don't have an exact list at the moment, but apparently two Zirda Bomberman decks made the top 8 of the Challenge this morning.

Here are the bomberman lists that I saw explored on youtube today:

https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/9Pga-te0y
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/3FS2IlVPj
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/v5vvLTvc5

Between the three there is a tight Skeleton looks like:

3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
0-2 Ugin, the Ineffable

3 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers

3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
0-2 Mishra's Bauble
2-4 Manifold Key
0-2 Voltaic Key
3 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Mystic Forge

3-4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4-5 Plains
0-3 Cavern of Souls

SB
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Walking Ballista
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing
1 Grim Monolith
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Mystic Forge
1 Mycosynth Lattice

[FTW]

@FTW: Shouldn't the board contain at least one of the Monoliths as Karn target? What about Coating - too slow for this deck?

My plan was to run 4 Grims main G1 (for higher probability of fast goldfish), then have the option to board 1 out as a Karn target.

Ideally there's room for a 5th Monolith and Coating in the board. But the SB space is tight. With a companion and Chalice pushed to the board, that eats up 5 slots. Something has to give. It comes down to which tools would get used the least often. Needs testing to find out.

[Cire]

Here are the bomberman lists that I saw explored on youtube today:

https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/9Pga-te0y
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/3FS2IlVPj
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/v5vvLTvc5


The 5-0 decklists from the legacy challenge

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-04-18#flow_true_-
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-04-18#mei_-

Combined with the above the skeleton looks like:

0-3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
0-2 Ugin, the Ineffable

3-4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
0-3 Zirda, the Dawnwaker

3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3-4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
0-2 Mishra's Bauble
2-4 Manifold Key
0-2 Voltaic Key
3 Grim Monolith
0-3 Basalt Monolith
2-3 Mystic Forge
0-2 Retrofitter Foundry
0-2 Chromatic Sphere
0-4 Chromatic Star

2-4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4-5 Plains/Snow Covered
0-4 Cavern of Souls
0-2 Karakas

SB
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
0-1 Walking Ballista
0-3 Swords to Plowshares
0-3 Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing
1 Grim Monolith/Basalt Monolith
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
0-1 Mystic Forge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
0-1 Staff of domination
0-3 Thought-Knot Seer
0-2 Oblivion Ring
0-1 Ethersworn Canonist
0-2 Containment Priest

Its looser but still relatively tight.

[FTW]

The 5-0 decklists from the legacy challenge

Salvagers looks like an efficient way to squeeze in another mana combo to have more ways to use those mana sinks.

I really like the first 5-0 list. It has fewer sketchy cards and looks like it would be more consistent.

[Cire]

I really like the first 5-0 list. It has fewer sketchy cards and looks like it would be more consistent.

Look at this 5-0 SPICE (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-04-18#pokemoki_-)

Oko? Yes.
Emry? Yes.
Urza? Yes.
Astrolab? Yes.
Opal? Yes.
Mystic Forge?! Yes.
Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy??!! Yes.

[FTW]

Don't forget Brainstorm. It's running many of the best cards in Legacy jammed together with Fox combo.

Mox Amber looks slightly less terrible with Kinnan, tapping for either UG to cast Oko or UU to cast Urza, but I'm still shocked there's room for that before Lotus Petals # 3 and 4. Amber can't tap for either R or W for Zirda, which seems really awkward.

[Wanderlust]

Wow the news is coming in fast and furious for Zirda in Legacy! I'm trying to keep the opening post up to date as best I can: I added a section with links to the MTGO-tournament-placing lists and added more of y'alls lists/comments to the different sections for each shell. If any of you who I quoted would like for me to remove/update your contribution, feel free to send me a DM. Also glad to take any suggestions/contributions from others. Finally, I was bored, so I made a banner riffing on the film Fantastic Mr. Fox to top the opening post.

Here's some irony: I spent about 5 years almost exclusively playing Bomberman in Legacy before anyone thought it was good enough (beginning way back when top was legal) and did pretty well with it. Bomberman hybrid was my first thought for Zirda, but I quickly moved on to the mono-R turbo list because, in my testing/theorycrafting, so far it's just felt better. But lo and behold, just in time for me to finally be ready to abandon good ol' Auriok Salvagers once and for all, results are showing that hybrid is hot. I'll have to reconsider.

[Cire]

Here's some irony: I spent about 5 years almost exclusively playing Bomberman in Legacy before anyone thought it was good enough (beginning way back when top was legal) and did pretty well with it. Bomberman hybrid was my first thought for Zirda, but I quickly moved on to the mono-R turbo list because, in my testing/theorycrafting, so far it's just felt better. But lo and behold, just in time for me to finally be ready to abandon good ol' Auriok Salvagers once and for all, results are showing that hybrid is hot. I'll have to reconsider.

Bunch of finishes for the bomberman versions of Zirda: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nge-2020-04-19 and https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...nge-2020-04-20

All of them pretty much fall into that skeleton I posted with some interesting mixes

[FTW]

Heliod is a white creature costing 2W (Ancient Tomb-friendly) and an activated ability. It's not an artifact but it adds another combo with Ballista.

[paradaxarada]

EDITED

UW ThopterFox

Land (21)

1x Ancient Den
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Flooded Strand
1x Karakas
2x Prismatic Vista
2x Seat of the Synod
3x Snow-Covered Island
2x Snow-Covered Plains
2x Tundra

Planeswalker (7)

4x Karn, the Great Creator
3x Teferi, Time Raveler

Instant (4)

4x Brainstorm

Artifact (17)

3x Arcum's Astrolabe
2x Azorius Signet
1x Batterskull
4x Grim Monolith
2x Lotus Petal
1x Retrofitter Foundry
1x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry

Creature (11)

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Urza, Lord High Artificer
3x Walking Ballista

Sideboard (15)

1x Zirda, the Dawnwaker
2x Cast Out
2x Dovin's Veto
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Glass Casket
1x Mycosynth Lattice
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Thopter Foundry
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Walking Ballista

-

Both Urza and Fox comboes with Thopter Sword

Maybe a second copy of Batterskull (side?) to abuse better of the monoliths? Side it in when useful.

[Wanderlust]

FTW had Sevinne's Reclamation in some sideboards in earlier builds: I was just thinking about how busted that card seems with Zirda/monolith combo IN THE MAIN. In most lists, seems better to me than having any copies of Zirda in the main.



EDITED

UW ThopterFox
<list>

Your list looks like it has a LOT of raw power! Nice! Have you considered Diviner's Wand to tutor for with Stoneforge as an infinite-mana sink? Or is it too cute?

[FTW]

Yeah I recommend Sevinne, especially if you run LEDs. It's probably better than extra Zirdas, since it can return Monoliths or protection too.

In a UW shell it opens up some piles with Intuition or Gifts Ungiven that tutor up the combo. Recurring Teferi is pretty strong too.

[Cire]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-04-25#t_kudo_-

Man just look at this beauty of a list. Literally just a pile of the last 12 months' most broken cards held together by the garaunteed infinite mana you get from the companion and the legacy blue spells.

[paradaxarada]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-04-25#t_kudo_-

Man just look at this beauty of a list. Literally just a pile of the last 12 months' most broken cards held together by the garaunteed infinite mana you get from the companion and the legacy blue spells.

I don't know if it's the best version, but without a doubt it's the one with the best cards.

The combination of Kinan and Atrolabe seems absurdly strong

[FTW]

What I like about that list is it doesn't depend as strongly on Zirda or WW mana, and the individual cards are better in a control shell.

Oko is just a good card, randomly Elks hate pieces, and a good distraction from the combo.

I was tested a similar snowko shell earlier (FoW, Brainstorm, Ponder, Swords, Astrolabe, Oko, Karn, 5 Monoliths between the 75). I liked the versatility.

The main differences here:
-splash red and black for value, especially Dead of Winter
-adds Kinnan as alternate combo instead of extra Zirdas or Sevinne's Reclamation recursion (Kinnan + labe seems great)
-Retrofitter Foundry instead of Walking Ballista as the main kill. Ballista is way less mana/fewer clicks on MTGO, dodges more hate, and wins this turn (instead of next turn), but Foundry is a better card outside the combo. Pre-combo Ballista just randomly pings a dork, while Foundry can provide real value for a control deck.
-Urza as another payoff instead of Teferi as extra protection

There's probably a better Snowko shell. Red for Pyroblast seems unnecessary when Green has Veil and blue has Spell Pierce. But I like this plan of just playing good cards.

The only thing really bad about this version is it runs few ways to beat Lurrus and tries to play a 5c snow game, which was strong pre-Lurrus but not enough anymore until they ban it.

[paradaxarada]

UW Combos & Fox

Land (21)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Flooded Strand
2x Prismatic Vista
1x Karakas
1x Ancient Den
1x Seat of the Synod
3x Snow-Covered Island
2x Snow-Covered Plains
2x Tundra
1x Skycloud Expanse

Planeswalker (6)

3x Karn, the Great Creator
3x Teferi, Time Raveler

Instant (4)

4x Brainstorm

Artifact (17)

2x Lotus Petal
2x Azorius Signet
3x Arcum's Astrolabe
4x Grim Monolith
1x Batterskull
1x Diviner's Wand
1x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry

Creature (12)

3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Urza, Lord High Artificer
3x Walking Ballista
2x Heliod, Sun-Crowned

Sideboard (15)

1x Zirda, the Dawnwaker
2x Cast Out
3x Mindbreak Trap
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Glass Casket
1x Mycosynth Lattice
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Thopter Foundry
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Walking Ballista

-

Combos:

Zirda:
Zirda + Grim Monolith + Walking Ballista
Zirda + Grim Monolith + Karn (Ballista)
Zirda + Grim Monolith + Urza (Karn)
Zirda + Grim Monolith + Stoneforge Mystic / Diviner's Wand (Karn/Ballista)
Zirda + Grim Monolith + Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek

Urza:
Urza + Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek

Heliod:
Heliod + Walking Ballista

Thopter Foundry:
Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek

Karn:
Karn + Mycosynth Lattice

Other Combos / Synergies:
Teferi + Astrolabe
Heliod + Batterskull
Heliod + Thopter Foundry


Strengths and Weaknesses:

+ Brainstorm
+ Teferi
+ Many lines of play (combo/aggro/control)
+ Many combos

- Too slow for current(?) legacy
- Bad mana base
- Many combo pieces to assemble that not always work together (like Zirda + Heliod or Urza + Heliod)
- Very unlikely Heliod will be a creature

[FTW]

2nd place in the MTGO Legacy Super Qualifier:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-super-qualifier-2020-05-01#cooluser_nd_place

Bant Snowko Zirda


//Planeswalker (9)
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Creature (3)
3 Walking Ballista

//Sorcery (6)
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Supreme Verdict

//Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Veil of Summer

//Artifact (7)
3 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Grim Monolith

//Land (20)
1 Karakas
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Windswept Heath
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra

//Sideboard (15)
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Walking Ballista
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Force of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Veil of Summer
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgment
1 Disenchant

[Nossman3]

This is what i'm testing

GrimFox Combo

3 Grim Monolith
1 Basalt Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Arcum's Astrolabe
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
3 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3 Walking Ballista
1 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Karn, the Great Creator
4 Ponder



4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
3 Prismatic Vista
1 Tundra
2 Seat of the Synod
1 Karakas
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Island

1 Basalt Monolith
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
1 Cast Out
2 Seal of Cleansing/Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Flusterstorm


It is basically mid way between combo boost and grind. I want it to be a redundant combo deck close to what storm is, like t2-4 with some form of protection. Sideboard has a lot of possible options, i used to run sevinne but i had to put hope due to manatraders rental services. It has been good with karakas and emry tho. Enemy number 1 are rod and ouphe

[Cire]

1st place Bant Walker Heavy Snow Zidra Decklist (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-05-10#tkc_st_place) no urza

[Cire]

FTW - what got banned faster, this deck or the breach deck :cry::laugh:

[H]

FTW - what got banned faster, this deck or the breach deck :cry::laugh:

Well, if you start the count at the paper release, I think this deck wins. I didn't even get my pre-ordered ones in yet, :laugh:.

[Wanderlust]

I didn't even get my pre-ordered ones in yet, :laugh:.

I got my Zirdas in the mail literally the day after the ban :rolleyes: