Turbo Gyruda

[ano_2k]

Turbo Gyruda is an all in combo deck built around casting Gyruda, Doom of Depths ASAP, and chaining clones until your opponent's deck is in their graveyard. We use sol lands and mana rocks alongside LED to cheat on mana, and have a light protection suite to force him through. We can board dread return and thassa's oracle in vs emrakul decks, but usually getting rid of their deck is enough.

EXAMPLE LIST: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2920524#online

[Barook]

Very cool concept. How fast can it reliably kill, though?

[ano_2k]

Very cool concept. How fast can it reliably kill, though?

turn 1-3, all it needs to do is get 6 mana

[Reeplcheep]

Since you are trying to get to 6 mana, its quite possible that grim monolith is better than petals.

Additionally echo of eons seems it would help with your mulligans since you only need a led to rebuy a hand and try to get more mana.

[FTW]

Looks strong.

Gyruda fits very well with 4x Chalice of the Void or Thorn of Amethyst, to supplement Defense Grids. Not sure if that's better main or SB.

Dread Return does not work. Your creatures will all be Legendary, all but one dying to Legend rule before you get priority to cast Dread Return.

[dte]

Looks like it really dies to many things.

But you could play 4 restoration angels, and some felidar guardians instead of some of the clones: it could leave you with a real board presence when you fizzle, and you can win by attacking with dack's duplicates cloning angels and clones of dack cloning angels.

[Barook]

Is there any particular reason why certain clones are preferred over Phyrexian Metamorph? Just curious.

[tsabo_tavoc]

That's a really cool concept!
Having to stuff the library with 30 combo pieces leaves you a 3.5-cards starting hand and forfeits the benefit from the 6-mana, 0-card! combo.
I did a rough math for 30 pieces: the fizzle rate for an average reveal is 5.5%, quite acceptable. However, if not mistaken, 'from among those cards' means you have to stack successful triggers 12-13 times in a row, leaving the final fizzle rate at 50%!
We need to find a way to drastically decrease the fizzle rate and push for much fewer combo pieces. Otherwise, much kudos to WotC for getting the balance right :laugh:

Edit: The 3 best pitch counters Force of Will, Misdirection, Commandeer are unfortunately out. Half of the hands will just be Chrome Mox fodders :frown:

[Reeplcheep]

That's a really cool concept!
Having to stuff the library with 30 combo pieces leaves you a 3.5-cards starting hand and forfeits the benefit from the 6-mana, 0-card! combo.
I did a rough math for 30 pieces: the fizzle rate for an average reveal is 5.5%, quite acceptable. However, if not mistaken, 'from among those cards' means you have to stack successful triggers 12-13 times in a row, leaving the final fizzle rate at 50%!
We need to find a way to drastically decrease the fizzle rate and push for much fewer combo pieces. Otherwise, much kudos to WotC for getting the balance right :laugh:

Edit: The 3 best pitch counters Force of Will, Misdirection, Commandeer are unfortunately out. Half of the hands will just be Chrome Mox fodders :frown:

I agree that chaining clones is too slot intensive. I feel running bounce creatures like restoration angel and feldilar guardian + kiki jikki will give you a munch better chance of going lethal and is much less slot intensive so you can run more protection

Edit: kiki is 5 cmc, but I feel that sort of effect is needed badly.

[mistercakes]

Looks like it really dies to many things.

But you could play 4 restoration angels, and some felidar guardians instead of some of the clones: it could leave you with a real board presence when you fizzle, and you can win by attacking with dack's duplicates cloning angels and clones of dack cloning angels.

yea that's what the post on reddit had. dunno if that person created the thread or not, and why they changed it if so.

so if you get a spark double , then hit a Dack's Duplicate and create just copies of this guy. then all your subsequent clones also get haste too right?

[Reeplcheep]

This deck already dies to rip/leyline; why not run the br reanimator targets and animate dead/exhume/some 2 cmc looting/mill as a plan b?

[pettdan]

This deck already dies to rip/leyline; why not run the br reanimator targets and animate dead/exhume/some 2 cmc looting/mill as a plan b?

What I heard discussed before is that it doesn't care if the card is in the graveyard or not at resolution.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Phyrexian Metamorph is an artifact so it can’t imprint onto Chrome Mox even though it’s blue. That may be the reason for its exclusion.

[Reeplcheep]

What I heard discussed before is that it doesn't care if the card is in the graveyard or not at resolution.

I believe you are correct, oops. Only hate is cage then?

[Reeplcheep]

Ok brewed on this.

2 major points:

1. Went to black instead of blue because unmask is 4 cmc whereas forces/misdirection are odd.

2. Went to bounces + haste instead of clones because now we don't have to chain as many times (only 3 or 4 times for the kill instead of 10+ times) and you still have a massive board if you fizzle. Not having to chain as much means we can run a bit more mana and protection.

Kolaghans is pretty silly if you have milled a creature deck a lot. Can still hit for 18 even if we only chain once (gyruda reanimating kologhan's after binning 2 Bladewing's Thralls).

Sideboard not changed
1 Dread Return
1 Gryuda
4 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pact of Negation
1 Thassa's Oracle

Black Count 21 (15 Creatures)
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Evil Twin
4 Unmask
4 Dragonlord Kolaghans
4 Bladewing's Thrall
3 Gyruda

Extra Bouncers: 12
4 restoration angel
4 feldilar guardian
4 Spark Double

Mana:22
4 LED
4 Chrome Mox
4 Tomb
4 city
2 peat bog
4 Petal

Protection: 4
Defense grid

[FTW]

Griselbrand is black and has even CMC.

In blue, can Sphinx of Foresight help stop your first one from fizzling? It might just dilute the chain.

Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst are both possible tools to fight disruption.

[Reeplcheep]

Do you think this deck can go off again if it stops on a griselbrand? we have no way to put creatures back in the yard and rely heavily on led to get enough mana to cast gyruda.

[Reeplcheep]

I looked at a bunch of test hands and I think the list above (and mine as well) has a very low chance of getting to 2 mana without mulliganning to LED's.

I changed the list so that I could cut even more creatures to run even more mana sources to consistently have 6 mana t1. With this list a mill kill is not possible and it is assumed that putting 18-24 power (possibly hasty) on the board t1 with magister of worth is good enough to win the game. Using chancellor's as protection/mana to help with the magister put 20 power into play plan.

3 Restoration Angel
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Evil Twin
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Spark Double
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Magister of Worth
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Massacre Wurm

[Barook]

Magister of Worth only puts creatures into play if your opponent votes for it as well, otherwise it nukes the entire board except itself. That combo doesn't work.

[FTW]

You can't play Chancellors.

[FTW]

3 Restoration Angel
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Evil Twin
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Spark Double
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Magister of Worth
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Massacre Wurm


Adding card tags for everyone's sanity, so we can see rules text and CMC.

Edit: If we could somehow add a way to copy the Gyruda ability, it would have a much higher probability of chaining to completion.


Panharmonicon
Yarok, the Desecrated
Naban, Dean of Iteration

Yarok is odd CMC, so involves not having Gy as companion. It could work in Commander (Yarok Commander, Gyruda companion with all even CMC cards and many clones).

Naban needs another combo piece to hack creature types (change the text on Naban, or change Gy to a Wizard)

But Panharmonicon is an even cmc artifact and easy to cast...

[FTW]

Gynomicon


//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Saprazzan Skerry
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Peat Bog

//Artifacts: 16
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Defense Grid
4 Panharmonicon

//Creatures: 26
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Dack's Duplicate
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Evil Twin
4 Felidar Guardian
4 Wispweaver Angel
2 Gyruda, Doom of Depths

//Sideboard Plan A - Protection:
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Echoing Truth
3 Thorn of Amethyst

//Sideboard Plan B - Transform:
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Helm of Obedience


This has a slightly higher fizzle rate in a vacuum (26 creatures vs 30 creatures). But with a resolved Panharmonicon (1 card combo) the fizzle rate for a complete chain should shrink dramatically (see 8 cards per clone instead of 4). So when you start, it's much more likely you complete the chain to the end.

The Angels/Guardians stick around. Gyruda trigger can also target an opponent's creature if you have extra triggers (from the copy) or you whiff on yours (no targets), so it's still possible to get a decent board presence if you can't complete the chain.

Finally postboard you could just transform into Clone Stompy. Stax pieces and HelmLine are decent ways to win, especially if the opponent is focused on stopping a combo.

[Reeplcheep]

Magister of Worth only puts creatures into play if your opponent votes for it as well, otherwise it nukes the entire board except itself. That combo doesn't work.


You can't play Chancellors.

Yes I screwed up multiple times with my list. Was focusing on trying to make a consistent kill with only 2 or 3 hits, instead of trying to have the 10+ hits you need to mill kill. I still think the clones list have way too many creatures and not enough mana to consistently hit 6 mana turn 1.

Fixing the above issues
:


// Protection 6
4 Unmask
2 Defense Grid

//Chaining creatures 14
2 Restoration Angel
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
1 Evil Twin
4 Spark Double
4 Wispweaver Angel

//Finishers 8
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
4 Bladewing's Thrall

//Fast mana 16
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

//Lands 16
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Peat Bog

//Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Massacre Wurm


The finishers means we only have to hit 2-4 times instead of 13. This gives a much lower fizzle rate even with a much lower creature count. This means we can run more fast mana (cabal ritual) and disruption (unmask). For example even just gyruda into kologhans plus a thrall is 15 hasty power, 9 of it flying.

Another thing I would like to add is as a t1 combo deck that can win by only casting creatures leyline of lifeforce seems amazing. And spark double seems like the best clone since the non-legendary clause keeps 7 power instead of 0. I would think about adding some coalition relics, as it both is reasonable ramp for the combo and means we can actually hard cast our threats as a plan b.

[FTW]

I still think the clones list have way too many creatures and not enough mana to consistently hit 6 mana turn 1.

Panharmonicon + Gyruda, Doom of Depths + Felidar Guardian

1) Gy enters. Triggers twice. Mill 8 cards each, return up to 2 creatures.
2) If Guardian or Angel are in those cards, trigger twice targeting Gy both times.
3) Gy flickers once (other abilty is countered). Triggers twice. Mill 8 cards each, return up to 2 creatures.
4) If any Clone or Guardian/Angel is in there, copy Guardian/Angel. Trigger twice. Target Gy once and the other Guardian once.
etc...

From there it's basically exponential, as long as you have 1 hit per 8 cards you build up so many triggers you can steal all their Tarmogoyfs while milling them out and making a bunch of Angel copies.

[Reeplcheep]

Panharmonicon + Gyruda, Doom of Depths + Felidar Guardian

1) Gy enters. Triggers twice. Mill 8 cards each, return up to 2 creatures.
2) If Guardian or Angel are in those cards, trigger twice on.
3) Gy flickers once (other abilty is countered). Triggers twice. Mill 8 cards each, return up to 2 creatures.
4) If any Clone or Guardian/Angel is in there, copy Guardian/Angel. Trigger twice. Target Gy once and the other Guardian once.
etc...

From there it's basically exponential, you build up so many triggers you can steal all their Tarmogoyfs while milling them out.

No I was talking about the non-panharminicon lists. Panharmicon definitely won't fizzle but then you are playing a 1.5 card combo, that can't be faster than t3, with no card selection, instead of a 0.5 card, t1 combo, with no card selection.

Edit: Essentially what I am saying is that the strength and niche of this combo is that it is a zero card combo that all you have to do is feed it mana. Adding any other moving pieces to this deck that you need to have before resolving gyruda will make it a worse beltcher/oops imo.

[FTW]

No I was talking about the non-panharminicon lists. Panharmicon definitely won't fizzle but then you are playing a 1.5 card combo, that can't be faster than t3, with no card selection, instead of a 0.5 card, t1 combo, with no card selection.

Right, but what's better?
A) 1.5 card combo that doesn't fizzle and wins the game that turn
B) "0.5 card combo" that still needs multi-card combo to make 6 mana, that just makes some bodies with high variance

The weakness of the combo is the extremely high variance of getting 6 mana on turn 1. You need LED, which makes it a 1.5 combo anyway. You're higher variance to assemble and lower payoff than decks like Oops All Spells, the benchmark for turn 1 all-in cheese.

I don't see the problem with a T3 combo if you play DGrid, Chalice or Thorn on turn 1.
You can cast it without Panharmonicon too. It will just have a higher fizzle rate, but so does the non-Panharmonicon build.

Finally I think the transform board into Stax is an underrated option. You can play a fair Stax game and just win with disrupting spells, hardcasting Clones, and having a 6/6 companion that steals a Goyf, Strix or Thalia (+2 cards for free).

[Reeplcheep]

The weakness of the combo is the extremely high variance of getting 6 mana on turn 1. You need LED, which makes it a 1.5 combo anyway. You're higher variance to assemble and lower payoff than decks like Oops All Spells, the benchmark for turn 1 all-in cheese.


The point of my list is that with 4 extra fast mana sources you have a reasonable shot at 6 mana by t2 or t1. bog, cavern, petal, petal, cabal rit is a great hand that is super sketchy with a clone or panharmicon in that slot.

If your 1.5 card combo can't go off before t3 it seems like you should just play storm or elves.

Compared to oops you don't need the 8 of you just need mana and you aren't dead to grave hate. And you can run lands so that you can go off multiple times, and can run better mana sources & cavern. Compared to belcher you again don't have to mull hands without your wincon, and 20 hasty power is much better than 12 goblins in the age of plague engineer.

My deck could also play 3 coalition relics [Edit: I am stupid, you would have to play firemind vessel instead and change 2 wispweavers to 2 resto angels] in the board and transform into just a random big creature deck if you value a transitional board.

[FTW]

The point of my list is that with 4 extra fast mana sources you have a reasonable shot at 6 mana by t2 or t1. bog, cavern, petal, petal, cabal rit is a great hand that is super sketchy with a clone or panharmicon in that slot.

The issue I see with that is Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Cabal Rit are each only +1 mana for each card (Petal and Ritual are 1-time use too)
Sol lands and depletion lands are +2 mana per card and work more than once
LED is +3 mana

Trying to hit 6 mana on turn 1 your way involves chaining more +1 cards together, taking up more cards. Card-intensive combos like that also mean you're really punished by mulligans. Doing it without Lotus Petal and Rituals but more lands takes up fewer cards and has more reusable sources, but does cost tempo to play land drops and risk Wasteland vulnerability.

Compared to Oops, you need to hit more mana on turn 1 and you risk losing to stuff like a single Swords to Plowshares in response to the first trigger, and you can't run some effects like Chancellor or Pact of Negation as protection.

Cavern is kind of useless if your target is turn 1 with +1 effects. It makes it harder to hit 6 mana, and even if you can they'll just counter LED or the ritual instead, so you're still stopped by FoW/Daze/Pierce. Cavern and Grid make more sense in a grindier build that hits 6 with lands.

It's worth testing to see if you can make it work turn 1 consistently. It just looks too inconsistent to both hit 6 mana and then flip enough creatures to hit a threatening position. You're right though, Panharmonicon may be too slow to actually lead to wins.

Good luck. Maybe you can make something of it. For a turn 1 deck, I'm just going back to my Song of Creation/Echo deck. That is surprisingly consistent at turn 1-2s, can play slow around hate, and mulligans really well.

[Reeplcheep]

The issue I see with that is Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Cabal Rit are each only +1 mana for each card (Petal and Ritual are 1-time use too)
Sol lands and depletion lands are +2 mana per card and work more than once
LED is +3 mana

Trying to hit 6 mana on turn 1 your way involves chaining more +1 cards together, taking up more cards. Card-intensive combos like that also mean you're really punished by mulligans. Doing it without Lotus Petal and Rituals but more lands takes up fewer cards and has more reusable sources, but does cost tempo to play land drops and risk Wasteland vulnerability.

Compared to Oops, you need to hit more mana on turn 1 and you risk losing to stuff like a single Swords to Plowshares in response to the first trigger, and you can't run some effects like Chancellor or Pact of Negation as protection.

Cavern is kind of useless if your target is turn 1. It makes it harder to hit 6 mana, and even if you can they'll just counter LED or the ritual instead, so you're still stopped by FoW/Daze/Pierce. Cavern and Grid make more sense in a grindier build.

It's worth testing to see if you can make it work turn 1 consistently. It just looks too inconsistent to both hit 6 mana and then flip enough creatures to hit a threatening position. You're right though, Panharmonicon may be too slow to actually lead to wins.

Good luck. Maybe you can make something of it. For a turn 1 deck, I'm just going back to my Song of Creation/Echo deck. That is surprisingly consistent at turn 1-2s, can play slow around hate, and mulligans really well.

You are right that adding more plus 1 cards seems bad. But you don't need to mulligan since you always have the combo. Its possible I should add grim monolith as another +3, but then I need to figure out how to get BB. Firemind vessel is a +2, but adds UB.

[Reeplcheep]

You are right that adding more plus 1 cards seems bad. But you don't need to mulligan since you always have the combo. Its possible I should add grim monolith as another +3, but then I need to figure out how to get BB. Firemind vessel is a +2, but adds UB.

Ok so you were definitely right the deck needs more +3. Added monolith as a +1 if you have the t1 and +3 for the reliable t2. Dimir signet fixes the double coloured mana very efficiently because of gyruda's hybrid mana nature even though it is technically a -1 t1 and +1 t2. Street wraith was an idead to hit black count while sort of being a mana source.

Don't know how to insert tables but here is 20 hands with list. Street wraith was horrible, stopping chains and rarely drawing mana. Should run reclamation angel or bladewing thrall. Grim monolith plus signet was great and having too much mana but not enough colours was rarely and issue. Numbers marked in bold means I either could have had hast and more power if no haste or I could have kept going if it has haste

Game Opening Hand size Mana in opener Gyruda cast turn Protection Power on board from gyruda Bodies Haste? Rules
1 7 4 4 Y 24 4 Y Only mull hands with less than 2 mana from initial mana sources and less than 3 total mana
2 7 8 2 Y 12 2 Y always cycle if possible
3 7 6 4 Y 9 2 N prioritze chrome mox over unmask
4 7 5 2 Y 18 3 N stop on haste creature only if will make >15 power
5 7 8 2 N 9 2 N Assume clone of spark double is non legendary??
6 5 5 2 N 6 1 N protection = unmask or cavern
7 7 7 2 Y 15 3 N
8 7 6 2 Y 12 2 Y
9 7 5 2 Y 9 2 N
10 7 3 3 N 36 6 Y
11 7 3 4 N 12 2 Y
12 6 4 3 Y 9 2 N
13 7 5 2 Y 12 2 N
14 7 5 4 N 18 3 Y
15 7 5 2 N 12 2 Y
16 7 5 4 N 27 5 N
17 7 4 5 Y 6 1 N
18 7 5 3 Y 9 2 N
19 7 9 2 N 18 3 Y
20 7 11 1 N 24 4 Y


4 Spark Double
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Evil Twin
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Traitors
3 Sakashima the Impostor
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Dimir Signet

4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Pact of Negation

[alphastryk]

You can't play Street Wraith, it has an odd cost.

[FTW]

Yeah, and even if you could play Street Wraith it's not good. I was never happy with it in decks like Belcher. It leads to harder mulligan decisions because you don't know if Street Wraith will cycle you into that last missing mana source or a dud, when you could just have business in that slot instead.

Grim Monolith + Signet looks good.

It looks like you often had protection and got large amount of power on the board, which is good.

The Gyurda cast turn is turn 2-4. If you're going off turn 2-4 and not turn 1, then why not run more lands and use lands as ramp? Depletion lands are +2 and give you both colored mana. Could you get any turn 1s?

[Reeplcheep]

You can't play Street Wraith, it has an odd cost.

well I'm not doing very well then am I. it was horrible anyways. Updated list (with wispweaver angel) and testing. Only needing 3 or 4 hits to win is a big plus.

Game | Opening Hand size | Mana in opener | Gyruda cast turn | # of Protection | Power on board from gyruda | Bodies | Haste?
1 7 6 2 2 24 6 Y
2 7 5 2 0 12 2 N
3 7 6 2 1 22 4 Y
4 7 9 2 1 12 2 N
5 7 9 2 1 36 6 Y
6 7 7 2 1 24 4 N
7 7 4 3 1 12 2 N
8 7 7 3 1 18 3 Y
9 7 11 1 0 34 6 Y
10 7 8 1 1 12 2 Y
11 7 8 2 2 12 2 Y
12 7 4 2 2 18 3 Y
13 6 6 2 0 16 3 Y
14 7 6 3 3 18 3 N
15 7 4 5 1 18 3 N
16 6 6 3 2 22 4 Y
17 7 7 2 2 26 5 Y
18 7 4 3 1 48 10 Y
19 7 6 3 2 24 4 Y
20 7 10 1 0 22 4 Y


4 Spark Double
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Evil Twin
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Sakashima the Impostor
4 Wispweaver Angel
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Dimir Signet

4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Pact of Negation

[tsabo_tavoc]

4 Spark Double
4 Dragonlord Kolaghan
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Evil Twin
4 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Traitors
4 Sakashima the Impostor
4 Wispweaver Angel
4 Unmask
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Cabal Ritual
2 Dimir Signet

4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
3 Pact of Negation


Glad to see the list keeps refining!
The turn 2 land to go with Monolith is Darkwater Catacombs. Monolith+Signet only leads to turn 3.
Haste enabler + Twin makes intruiguing decisions on what to bring back to the table.
A few other Haste enablers are good enough to pair Gyruda for a 1-turn clock:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Maze Rusher
Cyclops of Eternal Fury


Griselbrand is worthy on its own to break the chain. Wonder if there are more such creatures.

[Reeplcheep]

Yeah, and even if you could play Street Wraith it's not good. I was never happy with it in decks like Belcher. It leads to harder mulligan decisions because you don't know if Street Wraith will cycle you into that last missing mana source or a dud, when you could just have business in that slot instead.

Grim Monolith + Signet looks good.

It looks like you often had protection and got large amount of power on the board, which is good.

The Gyurda cast turn is turn 2-4. If you're going off turn 2-4 and not turn 1, then why not run more lands and use lands as ramp? Depletion lands are +2 and give you both colored mana. Could you get any turn 1s?

Depletion lands don't play nearly as nicely with monolith and signet, which are pretty key to this build. I should probably consider crystal vein though. The turn is the 4th column, I went off t1 1/4 of the time, t2 1/2 the time and t3/t4 the remaining 4. I was using the mulligan rules above to be consistent, more aggressive mulliganning would probably make it faster.

[Reeplcheep]

Glad to see the list keeps refining!
The turn 2 land to go with Monolith is Darkwater Catacombs. Monolith+Signet only leads to turn 3.
Haste enabler + Twin makes intruiguing decisions on what to bring back to the table.
A few other Haste enablers are good enough to pair Gyruda for a 1-turn clock:
Maelstrom Wanderer
Maze Rusher
Cyclops of Eternal Fury


Griselbrand is worthy on its own to break the chain. Wonder if there are more such creatures.

Hey thanks for the suggestions! Being black for unmask was my primary consideration to kologhans. The synergy with milling the opponent with gyruda is also kinda cute.
Dark water catacombs could very well be better than signet, thanks!
Do you think we can go off again with griselbrand? Any LED's are dead usually.

[FTW]

Depletion lands don't play nearly as nicely with monolith and signet, which are pretty key to this build.

You don't need Signets with Depletion lands. Peat Bog gives you both colored mana

Signets are just +1 and need to be cast a turn earlier. Lands are +2.

Signets are not useful from an acceleration perspective, only from a filtering perspective because you need colored mana. But if you just run other colored sources instead then you could cut Signets and gain speed. Darkwater Catacombs also works, though it's just +1 mana, but it has better tempo if you curve out T1 Sol Land + Monolith.

For other creatures there's also Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (even CMC). In some ways it's worse than Griselbrand, but if it makes them discard their hand then a 6/6 and 5/4 will probably win the game. It's also blue for Chrome Mox. So is Maelstrom Wanderer. They don't play well with Unmask though.

[Reeplcheep]

You don't need Signets with Depletion lands. Peat Bog gives you both colored mana

Signets are just +1 and need to be cast a turn earlier. Lands are +2.

Signets are not useful from an acceleration perspective, only from a filtering perspective because you need colored mana. But if you just run other colored sources instead then you could cut Signets and gain speed. Darkwater Catacombs also works, though it's just +1 mana, but it has better tempo if you curve out T1 Sol Land + Monolith.

For other creatures there's also Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (even CMC). In some ways it's worse than Griselbrand, but if it makes them discard their hand then a 6/6 and 5/4 will probably win the game. It's also blue for Chrome Mox. So is Maelstrom Wanderer. They don't play well with Unmask though.

I think catacombs is the choice as you said because it works better curving out. Jin-Gitaxias seems like a very good choice as it is more disruptive vs combo, considering the deck doesn't have many ways of going off again or discard

[Reeplcheep]

so if you get a spark double , then hit a Dack's Duplicate and create just copies of this guy. then all your subsequent clones also get haste too right?

a very important question is a clone of spark double still not-legendary? Does anyone know the answer, as it makes chains much longer.

[FTW]

a very important question is a clone of spark double still not-legendary? Does anyone know the answer, as it makes chains much longer.

Yes the clone copies all characteristics from the Spark Double copy, which includes that it's not Legendary (but not the +1 counter).

If you clone a Dack's Duplicate copy of a Spark Double, subsequent clones are nonlegendary with Dethrone and haste.

If you hit them in the reverse order (Duplicate first then Spark Double), you can sac the original Gy to the Legend rule and keep the Dack's Duplicate (same thing but with Dethrone and Haste), then the Spark Double will be a nonlegendary copy with Dethrone and Haste.

If you go the disruptive route, Sire of Insanity might be better than Jin-Gitaxias. You don't get to draw cards, but the opponent discards immediately (no main phase to try to salvage things). Sire is also a bigger body and is black for Chrome Mox and Unmask. Turn 1 Sire is already known to win games of Magic (especially without being vulnerable to Surgical), so even just hardcasting that as a Plan B might do it.

[Reeplcheep]

Yes the clone copies all characteristics from the Spark Double copy, which includes that it's not Legendary (but not the +1 counter).

If you clone a Dack's Duplicate copy of a Spark Double, subsequent clones are nonlegendary with Dethrone and haste.

If you hit them in the reverse order (Duplicate first then Spark Double), you can sac the original Gy to the Legend rule and keep the Dack's Duplicate (same thing but with Dethrone and Haste), then the Spark Double will be a nonlegendary copy with Dethrone and Haste.

If you go the disruptive route, Sire of Insanity might be better than Jin-Gitaxias. You don't get to draw cards, but the opponent discards immediately (no main phase to try to salvage things). Sire is also a bigger body and is black for Chrome Mox and Unmask.

That is a good idea, the deck already has trouble vs plow so endstep is less of an issue. Black is definitely important, and 12 power beats every deck with no hand.

[FTW]

That is a good idea, the deck already has trouble vs plow so endstep is less of an issue. Black is definitely important, and 12 power beats every deck with no hand.

Yeah, we already know from BR Reanimator that turn 1 Sire wins many games. If you can even just stick T1-T2 Gyruda+Sire and nothing else, that should win the game.

And if you get disrupted you have the option of hardcasting Sire later. Using Cavern of Souls @ Demon to produce red mana and uncounterability (your deck is already designed to ramp to 4BB).

[Reeplcheep]

Yeah, we already know from BR Reanimator that turn 1 Sire wins many games. If you can even just stick T1-T2 Gyruda+Sire and nothing else, that should win the game.

And if you get disrupted you have the option of hardcasting Sire later. Using Cavern of Souls @ Demon to produce red mana and uncounterability (your deck is already designed to ramp to 4BB).

the overlap with gyruda is definitely nice

[FTW]

Once Upon a Time has even CMC. Could that in any way help your opening hand consistency?

[Reeplcheep]

Once Upon a Time has even CMC. Could that in any way help your opening hand consistency?

The most important card in hand is LED not lands so I'm not sure how good it is. From my experience with street wraith adding deck thinning hurts you more than it helps (because just as much as it thins your deck it make your chaining worse.)

However, now that you convinced me to add sire of insanity, we now have 11 creatures that are perfectly fine on their own! You know what that means? You can run summoning trap as free protection numbers 9-11. Now every single hand has at least 1 protection (unmask/trap/cavern) and usually 2!

[SoullessOni]

Hi, first, be award that Gyruda is bugged on MTGO at the moment.
https://feedback.wizards.com/forums/926092-mtgo-issues/suggestions/40192858-issue-with-gyruda-doom-of-depths-effect-not-worki

now, I'm trying this list :
3 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Evil Twin
4 Saprazzan Skerry
2 Peat Bog
2 Crystal Vein
4 Chrome Mox
4 Griselbrand
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Defense Grid
1 City of Traitors
4 Sakashima the Impostor
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
4 Lotus Petal
4 Spark Double
2 Vizier of Many Faces
4 Unmask
1 Dread Return

1 Gyruda, Doom of Depths
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Echoing Truth
4 Pact of Negation
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Sorcerous Spyglass


I'm not satisfied with the sideboard at the moment, but the deck is almost consistent.
Pleasure to read you on this topic.

[Zbynda]

People are using Leyline of Lifeforce for protection and Charming Prince as a flicker effect that can continue the combo on next endstep, also RIP in the maindeck as protection from cage (only card that really stops Gyruda?)

[TheAmazingKitchen]

I haven't tested much besides some goldfish, but it seems like Dread Return really helps with consistency if we want to actually mill our opponent's entire deck (obv. only if we're running blink effects + spark double over regular clones). Sure, it's worse than a clone if you flip it too early and you don't have the board to flashback it, but later on it's much better : when flipping 2+ clones in one go, only one of them is useful and the others are wasted; but flipping clone+return actually yields you two more flips instead of just one.