View Full Version : Otter Nonsense featuring Lulululutri, the Spellchaser
If you’ve ever wanted to play more Delver? I’m not talking about more games of Delver, but more. In this time of companions Lutri, the Spellchaser might be what you’re looking for:
[Singletons]
Delver
Elvish Reclaimer
Gilded Goose
Noble Hierarch
Hexdrinker
Grim Lavamancer
Collector Ouphe
Scavenging Ooze
Tarmogoyf
Brazen Borrower
Dreadhorde Arcanist
TNN
Uro
Klothys, God of Destiny [14 dudes]
—
Oko [1 PW]
—
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Portent
Peek
Opt
Ancestral Visions
Once Upon a Time [8 cantrip]
FoW
FoN
FoV
Daze
Spell Pierce
Spell Snare
Stifle
Veil of Summer [8 counters]
Lightning Bolt
Rift Bolt [or Chain]
Izzet Charm
Abrade
Magmatic Sinkhole
Punishing Fire [6 removals]
Sylvan Library
Crashing Footfalls
Crop Rot
GSZ [4 utilities]
—
Grove of the Burnwillows x1
Karakas x1
Misty Rainforest x2
Scalding Tarn x2
Wooded Foothills x4
Trop x3
Volc x3
Wasteland x3 [19 land]
—
Sideboard:
Lutri, the Spellchaser
REB
Pyroblast
Active Volcano
Flusterstorm
Mindbreak Trap
Bojuka Bog
Surgical
Tormod’s Crypt
Cindervines
Soul-Guide Lantern
Compost
Questing Beast
Sulfur Elemental
Kavu Predator (don’t even worry about it, he combos with Grove)
So the null hypothesis is that this deck won’t be good. If anyone is brave enough to try and reject the null hypothesis remember not to cut Kavu Predator b/c he increases the power of the experiment, and that’s the best way to achieve statistical significance. Also don’t cut Compost b/c this companion is probably trash.
On a more serious note the Delver skeleton is pretty well preserved in terms of creature and spell type totals. There are probably some better cantrips and burn spells to upgrade to. Wouldn’t touch the P-Fire/Grove/Kavu stuff though since Lurrus has lifelink and that’s a thing right now. The Mindbreak could be some other counterspell and maybe there’s yard hate optimizations to be had. Some other directions for the deck could include things like Carpet of Flowers, Berserk (doubles as removal), perhaps actual Regrowth (since companion is a Fork) and/or another utility land.
If people are getting away with 80 card decks, who knows...maybe legacy singleton can be a thing. As much of a meme as the list is, the maindeck and SB card selections and structure are intended to be as competitive as possible (so let’s not advocate for a Dryad Arbor even though you see a GSZ).
kombatkiwi
04-20-2020, 06:48 AM
Lutri seems good with suspend spells like Rift Bolt and Ancestral Vision because you will have all your mana untapped when you cast them.
I don't know if a true tempo deck is possible with only 1 FoW and 1 Daze. If I was going to make a Delver-ish version of this it would probably be way more aggro / burn-heavy (maybe even UR only if there are enough spells) but the lack of good aggro 1 drops is a big problem. (Lutri also good with 0 mana spells e.g. Fireblast).
The other option is to play a more controlling deck with this companion (grixis probably) because having to split your answers between like fatal push / tyrant scorn / drown in the loch / dismember doesn't seem as much of a cost as having to split your threats between e.g. Delver / Swiftspear / Goblin Guide / Jackal Pup etc, and a gameplan that naturally involves you reaching higher amount of resources allows you to realistically copy 2-3 cmc spells
The issue with Grixis is that that design space is already closed. There’s no reason to ever experiment with Lutri there when you could be on Lurrus. Without ever testing you kinda just know Grixis Lurrus is probably going to have around 25% higher winrate. It’s a bad starting place if you’re trying to see if this can be competitive.
Afaik RUG isn’t starting any games with companions, so we know that there will be less catchup work. I do like the suggestion of Ancestral Visions over Clairvoyance, and Crashing Footfalls is probably a reasonable card as well. Rift Bolt definitely replaces Tarfire. I don’t think Fireblast is a card which a singleton deck can afford to start with in hand. I just don’t see Fireblast ever finding a window where casting it will aid the gameplan before ~turn 6 or higher.
Right now lifegain is everywhere, so I don’t think there’s much chance for a UR strategy that’s trying to play aggro with very much underpowered creatures b/c it got Lutri as companion. This is one of those points where you just take UR Delver and put 1-2x Lutri in the maindeck [no companion] and find out if 1-2x Fireblast is worth playing again. A 3/2 flash that pitches to FoW is a pretty reasonable card even when it’s not copying FoW/FoN or Pyroblast, so I don’t think you give up the 4x construction. There’s also the dies to Goyf test, and I would guess that UR-only singleton would have pretty much the worst starting point possible.
They just printed a 2-mana Delver and a black companion to recur all 8 Delvers. How many more Delvers do you need?
The singletons involve running so many marginal cards that the free +1-2 card advantage generated by having a companion is negated by having lower card quality in the deck and 3 fewer Ancestral Recalls than usual. With 1 FoW you're scooping to the combo decks that are usually good matchups, and with Scalding Tarn + 1xBrainstorm you're losing the long game against every other blue deck that will outdraw you.
Having "8 counters" and "8 cantrips" doesn't make up for it. Every time you have a tier 2 counter instead of FoW on turn 0, you just lost a game to TES or BR Reanimator or Chalice @ 1 or Vial. Every time you have Opt instead of Brainstorm, a fair blue deck just outdrew you (and you depend on Lutri just to make up that difference). I just don't see how the value of Lutri outweights that drawback.
If you do want Lutri, you could play it in the maindeck without the singleton restriction?
Edit: Nevermind, they nerfed the combo in advance.
Lutri does seem good with Suspend spells like Crashing Footfalls and Ancestral Vision, which you could conceivably copy for insane value without straining mana.
Tobitzki
04-20-2020, 01:13 PM
This is fun. As for going the UR Tempo route, this is what I came up with. Not much cute Otter stuff here; just trying to emulate Delver plus that free & guaranteed 3-drop. Honestly, I think the companion thing is messed up enough that this might be better than it looks. But I agree that the lack of Forces and Daze looks to be main liability.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2943814#paper
What did I miss?
(shit, are they brainwashing me into Commander at last?)
EDIT: Even though we're short on Arcanists, we want extra cantrips to find our better spells. Mission Briefing should probably be in there somewhere.
@FTW I don’t think any Vial deck would ever want to face this over RUG Delver. Too many convenient artifact/enchant killers, and doubling up a FoV is only ever 3 mana away [should you draw FoV]. I think the only maindeck in legacy more hostile to artifacts would be Goblins.
While it’s true this deck is down 3 Brainstorm, it draws far more polarizing effects than RUG Delver could ever hope to. When it comes to RUG Delver, they’re dumping everything into a low-to-the-ground strategy and they don’t have a recovery mechanism; they need Brainstorm to keep coming back to that plan as consistently as possible. The singleton restriction puts this deck between RUG Delver [including ability to pressure life totals] and Maverick [dudes with effects] in terms of playstyle and intended length of game. So yes, RUG Delver has better cantrips, but this deck is a good deal more interested in finding lands rather than needing to flush away early game pieces [without mid-lategame effect].
I think the counterspells are certainly good enough for combo, particulary since aggressive combo isn’t necessarily dodging FoV. They’re generally playing against 3x turn 0 counterspells and a far more horrifyingly unpredictable suite of 1 mana interaction. If you’re really concerned about the GY stuff on turn 0 then you can add Noxious Revival, which happens to make it even harder for people to get rid of Lutri (general utility vs any strategy makes it fine for maindeck play). Put simply, this deck is more likely to survive early combo than Maverick, Aluren/Food Chain, etc...; it’s likely comparable to 4c Oko in terms of making it to the midgame. Once you get into turns with mana you’ve got 4 ways to get Karakas (itself, Crop Rot, Reclaimer, GSZ for Reclaimer) and all kinds of obnoxious stuff like Ouphe, Scooze, Cindervines.
It’s singleton, so ya it’s probably worse than playing cantrip cartel...but it’s +1 card to hand size, and that’s the big question: does this mechanic make a flaming pile of nonsense perform on a comparable level to RUG Delver’s win%?
@Tobitzki I think you have to be careful with prowess threats and cantrips that aren’t designed to chain together. This [prowess + cantrips] is a combo towards counting to 20, and there’s nothing above it that can recover from those early slip-ups. Once the deck slips up early you’re looking at catastrophically mistimed cards like Fireblast; mistimed b/c the deck, while it looks fair, is highly disruptable A then B then C pseudo-combo.
In my list, maybe it gets off to a good start and has tools to snowball quicker by taking the red cards upstairs. When that doesn’t happen there’s this midgame plan for some interaction and prison’y speedbumps into sheer ridiculousness with Lutri/Ancestral/Footfalls/free spells/Karakas, actually escaping Uro (better colored mana than RUG Delver, and 2x mana dudes), hanging in there with life gain on 3 cards, and maybe just derping people out with elks or a Goyf. In singleton you really want to be careful about dedicating yourself to a single plan, it’s all about being a feather on the wind. :cool:
kinda
04-20-2020, 02:56 PM
It’s singleton, so ya it’s probably worse than playing cantrip cartel...but it’s +1 card to hand size, and that’s the big question: does this mechanic make a flaming pile of nonsense perform on a comparable level to RUG Delver’s win%?
The fact that it is singleton (meaning very different games every round I would think) would make this very difficult to work out. But...it looks very fun, I can see myself running it in one tues.
How does the UR tempo list test?
I think it's missing too many tempo pieces to present the same kind of clock, and Lutri doesn't help add tempo. What it does do is add avenues for mid-game card advantage. RUG Waterfalls (midrange Cascade) is a better fit for this than RUG Delver. You can't match their tempo gameplan of pressure and consistency. You can run diverse singleton answers and grind out lategame card advantage, but that is not a tempo strategy and so the card choices shouldn't be tempo cards. Delver specializes in being a 50-50 deck, having a decent matchup against everything. It does that through consistency and efficiency. A singleton deck can't match that and shouldn't try to. But it could do some things better than Delver, being 75% against some decks and 25% against others. You can't match consistency so just go for payoff.
Ancestral Vision and Bedlam Reveler seem good in this sort of gameplan. You can outdraw other decks, especially using a free companion to copy some low-cc draw spell.
As Foretold (which is also good in RUG midrange with Visions+Footfalls) allows you to cast spells for free, which you can then copy with Lutri. Effects that bounce Lutri like Curfew might be abuseable (at worst it's a 1cc answer to Marit Lage and Emrakul).
It’s singleton, so ya it’s probably worse than playing cantrip cartel...but it’s +1 card to hand size, and that’s the big question: does this mechanic make a flaming pile of nonsense perform on a comparable level to RUG Delver’s win%?
UR Delver can already get +1 card to hand size splashing black for Lurrus. And already has done so with good results. So just getting some free companion isn't enough edge to justify the flaming pile. Can Lutri's ability be abused to generate real value?
@FTW the list has 4 ways to find a Karakas which should make this among the most bounceable companions out there (with a reason to bounce). Outside of Karakas, having spells that rescue your creatures are generally a poor investment; you should assume that the creature died on the stack or on arrival, so the effect you want has to get it back from the yard (Noxious/Regrowth, Kcomm, and others. These need to either bring Lutri back in hand or to the field at instant speed).
As Foretold in non-singleton exists more on the tier 2.5 side of things, where it’s basically the same thing as Splinter Twin with a little more win%. They’re in the family of Volc/Tomb, and they’re both a worse [less-winning] way to play than mana than SnT. Twin and AF pilots often drop cantrip cartel and rely on Chalice cheese and SB Moon, to dubious effect. When you have a silly battlecruiser deck you’ll generally need 4x copies of key pieces, and these key pieces most often fail to get better with multiple drawn/deployed. AF in a singleton deck that can cast all its spells (and only has Footfalls/Ancestral 1-ofs) isn’t going to unlock much; you’ll be marginally better vs Choke but 3x more expensive than trying to yolo with the Carpet gambit.
If ever you had AF -> Ancestral on the stack + Lutri to copy, your opponent lost a few turns ago. All you need is few worthwhile effects for Lutri while you’re going about your business not drawing dead cards like AF. The list of effects right now are:
-quadruple disenchant
-double FoW/FoN (or maybe double Veil) in response to hostile countermagic
-double dink 1 or 2 PWs for 10 (Sinkhole)
-draw 6
-deploy 16 trample
-turbomill 5 cards to yard for Uro by copying Izzet Charm if you have nothing better to do.
-double REB effects in postboard games
^these combos are always in hand b/c of companion mechanic, so all you need is the plan to get to the mana. They are already more than enough to win games of legacy; I don’t think you really need to add additional winmore at this point. The Bedlam Reveler might seem fine, but he’s a real clunker when you have better cards (Uro, Dreadhorde, Sinkhole) with lower to the ground ideas for gaining yard value.
Edit: one more thing on the Ancestral Visions is that there’s not a sane opponent who sees Lutri in your companion zone, three untapped mana, and an Ancestral getting placed on the stack and says “Forcing the Ancestral is a good idea.” This just browbeats the opponent into letting it resolve, drawing you card for the turn, and still having 3 untapped mana. You’re only casting Lutri there to push a copy of Ancestral over their countermagic. Proactively casting Lutri to copy Ancestral without provocation, i.e. opponent countermagic, is a bad play; when Ancestral resolves [by itself] you’re ahead, so keep getting ahead in a responsible way.
Tobitzki
04-20-2020, 11:35 PM
@Fox. I understand that you want to brew a different deck; my first instinct was just to emulate a consistent & proven gameplan as closely as possible to balance out the variance that comes with singleton, instead of aiming for specific high-ceiling synergies of a strategy that's arguably already jank (i.e. Waterfalls; really no offense, I mean we're brewing with an Otter here...).
But my list is actually less Prowess or quasi-combo than you think and its midgame should be its strongest suit, as @FTW points out (Peezy, Arcanist, TNN, Brazen B, Bedlam). In the 1-drop department you just have to take what's there after Delver, so I agree that playing real tempo is the iffiest part. This is also what I like most about RUG idea: the redundancy of mana dorks. Other than that, Fireblast could be Seal of Fire. Rift Bolt ought to be in there. JVP could be another value 2-drop..
Incidentally I just realized that I built a 7-pt Australian Highlander Deck while being stuck in an OZ city with no Legacy scene, sooo...
Mr. Safety
04-21-2020, 09:30 AM
A card like Lutri seems to reward cards like Snapcaster Mage, Cunning Wish, Gifts Ungiven, and Intuition. If you're looking for value, but also consistency, those cards allow you to have that kind of game plan. You can build redundancy without having to rely on bad cards like Peek, Tarfire, and Opt. I know those cards aren't mana efficient, but once you give up having 4x Brainstorm/Daze/Force of Will then efficiency isn't really your goal.
Some cards to consider:
Snapcaster Mage
Eternal Witness
Merchant Scroll
Gamble
Gifts Ungiven
Intuition
Cunning Wish
Burning Wish
Living Wish
Just some food for thought.
@Mr. Safety Snapcaster is probably fine, but it‘s also a 3cmc card that will have a harder time taking over a game than Uro/Oko/Klothys; the card you‘d be looking at replacing is TNN I think. E-Wit has that same 3cmc problem, and given that Lutri copies spells, I think ability to Fork a Noxious/Regrowth probably perform better (these spells are also better at getting from 2 to 3 mana). Merchant Scroll doesn‘t have a large pool of targets; you can tap down on your turn 2 to tutor a FoN/FoW, but you‘re also not helping a card like Dreadhorde.
I don‘t really get what the deck gains by casting Gamble. I don‘t think casting 4cmc spells [Gifts] is where you want to be; if this deck had no problems getting to 4 mana, I‘d rather be casting a PW. All of the Wishes and Intuition are heavy on the mana, low on the payoff. They are also exceptionally hard to Fork with Lutri.
The thing about bad cantrips is that you can make up for their shortcomings by giving them a bigger target. The biggest target is ofc the 19 lands, and you complement this with cards that operate on lower mana demands. So your bad cantrips [hopefully] get your lands set up, so the next step is finding something to do with the mana now that you have it. You‘re looking to complement all the low mana cards and that‘s where you‘ve got:
-lifegain to extend the game
-lock pieces/yard hate
-mana dudes to help escape Uro (with bad cantrips in yard for escape or Dreadhorde or Sinkhole)
-Oko the 1-card combo (can randomly use Goose‘s food, your elks maybe get to attack as 4/4 with exalted)
-4 ways to grab Karakas for Lutri
-a timing window favorable to early suspend into mana for Lutri (b/c the plan was getting to 3 mana by the time it gets off suspend)
^the last point here is pretty important, as cards like Intuition/Wishes/Merchant Scroll fail to set up the mana on time, hurt your early creatures, and then they distract/steal mana once you‘re in the Lutri phase of the game. A good way to look at this is putting your 1-2cmc dudes in your left hand and putting Oko/Uro/Lutri/Klothys is your right hand, drop Intuition/Wishes/Merchant Scroll type cards on the table between your hands - now ask yourself if the cards on the table bring your hands together or apart.
—
Edit: updated original list. -1 Clairvoyance, -1 Cindervines, +1 Footfalls, +1 Ancestral. In SB -1 Return to Nature, +1 Cindervines.
instead of aiming for specific high-ceiling synergies of a strategy that's arguably already jank (i.e. Waterfalls; really no offense, I mean we're brewing with an Otter here...).
Yes Waterfalls is maybe a tier 2.5 deck, but what tier is Otter supposed to be?
Can Otter do anything other than high-ceiling strategies? That's what its ability is designed for. There's nothing tempo about Twincast or a 3-mana 3/2. A tempo deck can't sit around with 3-mana up all the time to threaten Lutri as a way to force through spells. Lutri will be very easy to play around if you have to tap out often, like a tempo deck usually does (built to optimize mana efficiency). To get consistent value from Lutri you need more lands, which is more midrange than tempo.
If you try to match RUG Delver at its own plan you'll just end up with a strictly worse version of Delver instead of a legitimate unique strategy. A 3/2 vanilla creature does not justify singletons when Lurrus exists. The deck has to abuse the Lutri ability enough to justify singletons. Karakas is a good engine.
The point of As Foretold was not just to cast 0cc spells but to save mana overall. It's hard to leave 3 mana open all the time to threaten Lutri. AF lets you cast regular spells for 0 mana and leave mana up for Lutri. That was the point, but it may still be too weak and high variance.
Curfew is better than most rescue spells in that it hits both players for 1 cmc instant, doesn't target (i.e. less vulnerable to tricks), can be used to respond to removal on Lutri, and answers stuff like Marit Lage and Emrakul even if you have no creatures. It has synergy with other creatures like Snapcaster and Coatl if Lutri is gone. Karakas is still better overall, but in a singleton deck you're forced to consider some low tier cards. It may not be good enough to make the cut, just an option.
@FTW There‘s nothing anti-tempo about a card that is always in your hand without ever taking space or acting as a dead draw. The question is whether or not this translates to something competitive given the hilarious restriction. Lurrus is clearly a better card, which is why we‘ll never even consider Lutri in a deck that can make B/W mana, as they can play 4-ofs. The colors for doing something different exist [this justifies the experiment], and we can infer [without testing] that Lutri in any maindeck is probably not good enough. The direct comparison to Shardless Agent you‘re pointing out with RUG cascade is on target, but only for that maindeck Lutri.
The issue with RUG cascade is the mismatch of high costs & low countermagic, translating to slow starts and dying before you get to play the game. While cascade can run towards FoN and away from BBE (probably for the mix of Uro, Oko, and Dreadhorde) to try and hold on vs combo, it kind of undermines the point of their deck and they‘re still quite prone to dying to 1-2 Wastelands. On top of all this tension you add that their deck can‘t really do anything to directly challenge a 3cmc PW (Narset/Teferi/Oko) which all happen to dismantle their strategy. So this is how RUG cascade fails in legacy [timing problems], and those issues are what I want to see if Lutri can fix - can we capture the essence of RUG cascade‘s lulzy blowouts without registering a structurally conflicted, bad deck. Lutri obviously isn‘t going to add topdeck consistency, but perhaps you can cut through the variance with every card working towards a clear goal in their own way (as opposed to only being meaningful in an A plus B fashion).
As Foretold is a dead draw, always has been, always will be. That said, you can engage in [non-singleton] silliness an try to derp people out with Tomb/Chalice and huzzah them with janky effects whose non-jank forms are banned (actual Ancestral, Balance). Sidestepping the variance of no cantrips, the issue is that the followup of PWs classically used by Twin/AF all fail the Oko test (JTMS and Chandra)...and failing in series to Oko is that Chalice cheese.
AF and cards like Curfew don‘t really pressure opponents and have assumptions that you‘re already winning (like AF resolving and having things to freecast, or untapping with Lutri in play or having at least the 4th mana to keep him safe). I generally assess cards based on a hypothetical where things went wrong, so I can‘t be wasting time topdecking anti-combos. So like with Curfew, we‘ll assume the oppo isn‘t trying to kill your creature; do you want to reset your Delver, do you ever want to cast this with just Dreadhorde in play, etc... I‘m much more interested in a card Lutri can Fork for CA, which also gets him back from the grave (Regrowth-types). Let‘s continue the things going poorly motif, do you want to be at 2 mana and have Curfew or would you rather Regrowth a Fetch? I‘m fine with subpar cards, but they need to harmonize with as many situations as possible. That‘s another reason why I don‘t like the UR using stuff like Swiftspear and Stormchaser; they are only good in a circumstance where everything is going to plan.
@FTW There‘s nothing anti-tempo about a card that is always in your hand without ever taking space or acting as a dead draw.
The anti-tempo doesn't come from the companion. It comes from the singleton restriction. You lose tempo the second you don't have as many tier 1 Turn 1 threats (1x Delver), the second you lose the power of 4x Daze to punish greed and reward you for your tempo, and the second you don't have 4x Brainstorm to fix bad hands and shuffle back extra lands to efficiently draw you into more gas. If you can't consistently deploy efficient clocks and police their tempo and minimize your own variance, you can't play a tempo game.
You lose tempo by running Opt instead of Brainstorm, and by having stuff like T1 Lavamancer instead of T1 Delvers.
The reference point isn't a vacuum or a singleton deck with no companion. It's a deck with 4-ofs. That's what you could have if you didn't have Lutri.
The question should always be "does Lutri's value justify the cost?" The cost isn't just 3 mana for an 8th card in hand, it's also the deckbuilding restriction.
Lutri costs tempo by playing singleton. What does Lutri give you in return? It doesn't replace the tempo it cost. It gives you card advantage: a free creature and a copied spell.
A Xerox tempo list already steals extra card advantage from being able to run off only 2-3 lands and use cantrips to convert excess lands into spells. That already translates to an extra card or two per game, which you lose in a mana-hungrier singleton list with worse filtering. The free card in Companion zone isn't a free +1 card advantage in a vacuum, because you're starting at a deficit. Lutri just tries to make up the card deficit, with variance. If it fails you're probably behind on cards relative to a Xerox deck. If it succeeds, then you could end up ahead in cards.
Basically, Lutri represents a higher-variance 3cc gambit to steal mid-game card advantage. That's not a tempo thing, that's a midrange thing.
There's nothing pro-tempo about needing 3 lands in play and having to hold 3 mana open while resolving other spells.
The current RUG cascade 4x decklist is irrelevant because we cannot play it with Lutri. I'm talking about the RUG cascade philosophy, which is to aim for 3-4 lands in play and midrange card advantage instead of 2-3 lands in play with 1cc threats and mana denial. Don't play Wasteland and Fireblast, play Ancestral Vision and Footfalls and planeswalkers and spells that are blowouts if copied. There is no tension in running all the 8 counters you have next to a 1x Shardless Agent in a singleton deck. The probability of flipping a counter will be low due to singletons.
Just a little detour on the Lurrus stuff going on in legacy right now...No one is becoming a better fair player playing with or against Lurrus - c’mon guys, Daze in a Karakas/Badlands deck... There‘s nothing skill-testing about one person not being able to do anything b/c it‘ll die to a spell Dreadhorde recurs or while Lurrus is left unchecked on the back of earlier threats discarding removal and this rather unstoppable value parade they can threaten upon reaching 3 mana vs any opponent who slips up with a conventional strategy.
You play a deck like this and it‘s not just the no-skill blowout mirrors, but you‘re also probably hoping to dodge the Fox & Kraken cannons. So that‘s life with [non-LED] Lurrus, and it‘s probably not long for the format ~ you‘re specializing in an archetype that‘s going to fall off a cliff. So let‘s tally up what Lutri singleton has in store for Lurrus without even trying :
-Waste Lurrus off the 1-2x Karakas they have to topdeck and can‘t recur.
-Waste them off of B/W sources to condemn Lurrus to life as a household pet
-Tutor Karakas 4 ways to push Lurrus off
-Give your opponent Karakas targets they don’t want (Uro/Lutri) b/c of value reprisal
-Ouphe the Baubles, Scooze or Klothys the yard, tutor either with GSZ
-Dome Lurrus with 6 burn spells, one of which is P-Fire which has a fun little interaction against lifelinkers
-Deploy dudes that Lurrus’ removal isn’t that good against (4+ toughness, protection from instants, etc...)
-Overrun Lurrus with a 1-card combo (Uro/Oko/Klothys)
-Dome Lurrus with Lavamancer
^This isn‘t even trying to intentionally troll Lurrus, it‘s just what Lutri wants to be doing anyway either for goldfishing purposes or ticking off the legacy effects a maindeck needs checklists. Come to the Fox and Kraken cannons, and you‘re going to notice even more relevant effects at higher densities in a Lutri pile than fair Lurrus hoping 5-6 Force effects will get them there.
You‘ve got somewhere around 20ish (just grossly estimating) cards that do what you want against a new hot deck like fair Lurrus; pretty good consistency for a singleton deck. Clunkers like AF and Curfew don‘t bring enough to the table, they just sign you up to lose harder the moment you got behind. Consistency isn‘t [I]just topdecking with better odds (multiple copies + cantrips), but yes, that is by far the easiest way to get it. In the above case of anti-Lurrus effects, does it really matter what the name of the card is when ~one in three draws does what you‘re looking for? If you think it still matters, remember that people have to advertise their companion before you make a mull decision in game 1 and Lutri is packing the lulz.
Tobitzki
04-22-2020, 02:26 AM
Agreeing with a lot here. High-level discourse, I appreciate it. As for the opportunity cost of starting with an untouchable free extra card in hand, yes: it's about the variance of singleton. The closest reference point ought to be the 80-card Yurion piles, which reduce their chance of seeing Brainstorm and other cornerstone cards, and folks are quickly coming around to the fact that it is indeed worth sacrificing those little percentage points of consistency for a card that they wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole as a non-companion (something we couldn't necessarily say about Lurrus, thanks of the power of the Bauble engine alone.)
This also means that we can constitute that a UR tempo version does take the biggest hit by losing 3 Delvers & 3 Dazes, but it's still a matter of degrees. Without testing we can't know that those losses are, in fact, too much. Let's NOT keep underestimating the structural advantage of this obnoxious mechanic, shall we?
Having said that, I'm coming around to the Noble RUG take on the strength of the green 1-drops (Reclaimer and Hexdrinker next to 3 Mana dorks--I would definitely play BoP, too.) And what I reassembled comes pretty close to your list, @Fox. Once you go RUG, the deck kinda builds itself, incl. the Crop Rot tech which in turn enables Fire/Burnwillow and Karakas for the Cat meta. With the redundant T1 mana accelerators we can lean into the abundance of tier-1 3-drops (yadayada... Noble RUG Delver/Midrange philosophy). The Otter is strong enough as a nerfed weirdo Snapcaster. I'd stay away from dead topdecks like the suspend cards.
A few card suggestions to consider:
Become Immense: cute win-now button with Arcanist, but more importantly, gas with Lutri.
The Royal Scions: underplayed PW with very strong stats, and in a creature-heavy build, all abilities are relevant. (Been liking them in UR Delver, though it's tough cutting a Brazen Bouncer)
Narset: Maindeckable here, as she helps us find Forces, Oko, and the good cantrips.
Rielle, the Everwise: Not sure about this one, but if we did want to lean into a low-key Looting theme (Faithless, Scions, Dack, Izzet Charm) she might be worth exploring.
Parcelbeast: Now here is a fun CA engine to mutate onto a T1 Bird or Goose.
Ark4n (aka Legacy_Council on twitch) ran a Lutri as Grixis league to a 4-1 finish. League was Fox, Cat, Fox, Snake, Cat. Both Fox decks looked like the best list that is out there; only loss was to the first Fox. The first Cat opponent was on miracles-like build trying to cheese wins off CB; the second Cat was the real deal (Grixis). The Snake opponent was a sub-optimal list that kinda just took 4c [no black] xerox and used the extra 20 cards to add Punishing maverick stuff. Problem their deck had is you can’t really play mana duders and wraths (the whole point of white), so instead they played a few uncounterable Chandra (did you know she can’t minus to kill Otter haha); they predictably couldn’t stem the bleeding onboard (even with Oko) either game and Lutri deck had burn in it...
The first four opponents lacked any Wasteland or credible yard hate, which made Grixis Lutri look a lot better than it is (never had trouble recasting Kroxa, even without any Badlands). The Grixis Cat featured two games where either deck was exposed as tremendously vulnerable to Wasteland. Lurrus from either opponent looked fairly underwhelming and completely unprepared to deal with Lutri’s ~7 removal spells and Wastelands.
The Grixis colors [for Lutri] have a lot of holes and a near-complete reliance on opponents playing dudes they can kill rather than some other wincon. The payoffs effects were also a bit sketchy, hoping Gurmag would get there or having mana for Kroxa; often Lutri was just converted into a double Peek. The other issue is that you’ve got opponents actively advertising their deck before you decide to keep or mull in game 1, and Grixis has no cards that just put a stop to things. In either Fox game it would have been nice to have RUG’s access to hands with FoV, Ouphe, or mana accelerators.
The best moment of the league was game 1 against Grixis Lurrus where they do the classic Grixis thing of never being able to establish a board presence on 1 mana and get Wasteland’d twice in a row. They play their Fetch and pass, and then effin’ Lutri taps its one colored source and windmill slams Serum Visions...and the opponent has to take a good long think about the choices they made in life that brought them to a point in legacy where they really have to consider Daze’ing it. :laugh:
I watched Ark4n's stream. Lutri has potential, though he and the chat agree it would be better as control/midrange than tempo, like I kept saying.
His blowouts came from control cards (KCommand, Kroxa) and patient plays. His misplays were all from trying to play like a tempo player (Wasting early mana sources instead of saving it for Karakas, aggressive self-Thought Scours to cantrip instead of saving it to disrupt Miracles/Sanctuary/CB, playing out Sprite Dragon too early into removal instead of waiting to having a spell up, tapping out to play extra bodies instead of holding up Snap+Counterspell, etc.). Lutri does not lend itself towards tempo plays. The value comes later.
He should have even won round 1. He just didn't know how to play against Zirda. He had the disruption to win both games if he played correctly. Zirda's new. Players will catch on after more matches.
RUG has some clear advantages over Grixis for the midrange strategy: better mana development, Oko, Uro, Klothys, more tutors, good hate for the artifact-heavy combo decks. Grixis would have to tilt towards hand disruption (Hymn, Liliana, Cabal Therapy), and cards like that make it more awkward to support Karakas and easier to lose to Wasteland.
Re: the 80-card Yurion piles
It's a similar drawback but different magnitude. Yurion has a lower impact on the chance to see cards.
Yurion (80-card): 3/4 chance to see any card
Lutri (singleton): 1/4 chance to see a 4-of
You can compensate by running tutors and multiple diverse cards to fill the same role, but that's still easier to compensate for in 80-card piles than singleton.
The other big difference is Yurion doesn't try to play tempo. They play control. Control can get away with playing bigger piles, as long as they have enough card advantage and density of answers. They play for the long game so the variance of the initial hand matters less as long as they have value and interaction. Tempo can't pull off the same because it needs speed and consistency. This is why Lutri needs to tilt towards control/midrange.
I concede that Wasteland is good because of the metagame, but to be used as a control card (kill Karakas, Depths etc.) and less as a tempo card (try to manascrew them and clock them). Ark4n talked about going down to 2x Wasteland and up to 21 lands. In RUG 3x Wasteland seems fine because of other ramp.
@Fox: With those points about hating on Lurrus value decks and Fox cannons, Maverick seems well-positioned in this meta, either splashing red (Punishing Maverick) or blue (Oko, Uro). Without singletons, Maverick can deploy the hate and best threats with more consistency. It can also has 4x Thalia to punish all these greedy Bauble players running curves heavy at 0-1.
kombatkiwi
04-25-2020, 11:48 AM
I agree that making the deck more midrangey seems good
I don't think MrSafety intuition idea is that bad actually. I think the deck can easily play a Loam as a value 1-of and then you can make piles like Loam/Grove/PFire or Loam/Uro/Karakas and such
His blowouts came from dodging Wasteland and post-board yard hate. There was also a notable disconnect between Lutri and coming together with the blowout cards of Grixis. Kcomm is fine for buying back a key creauture (even though 6 mana is too much for Fork), but Lurrus is a little better mana security companion in a deck trying to use Kroxa (costs BR to spam). Beyond the mana issues, there‘s no value is Forking a card like Hymn as they simply won‘t have 4 cards in hand by turn 5 - you‘re just diluting draws away from cards Lutri can use (so just be on Lurrus).
I think the important thing about the league is seeing how Lutri can exploit maindeck hate/prison w/ keep or mull decisions while other decks are telling you what they‘re doing. The durdle crew (Snake and Cat) looked pretty easy to consistently put on the back foot with correct singleton effect-type density. I don‘t think the take home lesson was to go bigger/harder on the Grixis Control with a companion that was already struggling to contribute, even when the mana was unopposed. That said, Lurrus decks become fairly underwhelming when they try to play control without any PWs...I just don‘t think Lutri can really help Grixis get PWs to levels of mana needed by abandoning responsible early games with singletons.
@kombatkiwi Loam and Intuition assume a game is going well and that you‘re ahead. They‘re rather tempo-negative as an individual topdeck. You also always have access to Lutri, so you kind of have to ask why you‘re abandoning the tool at hand in a ~3+ mana gamestate. Proper construction should preclude the need to find specific singletons ~ if you have the desired effects in correct amounts, you don‘t need to undermine your opener. That‘s why we don‘t see cards like Intuition played to any success in Delver decks. The Lutri league showed that not going big enough on mana-intensive value isn‘t the issue. The hardest matchup was Wasteland at the end; the opening turns was the concerning piece.
Edit: go back and watch the Grixis Cat matchup and watch that player double-Daze themselves back to the stone age; you can‘t be giving them breaks b/c the card you‘re casting isn‘t worth Daze over getting Lurrus online.
Did any of his blowouts come from playing tempo? No.
Did any of his misplays come from playing for tempo? Yes.
He got Wasted, just not in the games he won with Kroxa. Rebuilding with more stable mana and a higher land count helps.
I said RUG midrange fit Lutri better than Grixis. Not sure what you're arguing against. But for a Grixis build, control worked and just needs more support for the control plan, which includes patching the mana weakness.
You don't need to Fork Hymn. 2-3cc cards shouldn't be there as Fork targets (too expensive). They can be Forked sometimes, but their main role should be to supplement the game plan (card advantage and disruption). KComm is great but should be used to recur Lutri more often than get Forked by it. The main Fork targets should be the 0-1cc cards. Mindstab was a bad choice because its main role is being a Lutri target but no one will have 4+ cards in hand when it resolves. Hymn is good on its own.
RUG can apply the same principles. 2-3 cc card advantage that can't be forked is still good. They just tend to be permanent-based in those colors: Oko, Uro, Dreadhorde, Snapcaster, Library, Coatl. Green has a big edge offering Footfalls where black just has Mindstab. Both RUG and Grixis should run Visions (which is not obvious if you look at it like a tempo deck instead of a control deck).
As for the lack of gravehate, the old Grixis Control often had the same benefit. Some players saw FoW and Brainstorm and boarded against it like a fair blue deck, not bringing in enough gravehate, even though their card advantage engines (KComm, Snap, Liliana) were GY-based. I think the same thing happened with him. Players will board wrong against random piles.
He didn't get much value from Lutri itself, showing that Grixis Control in general might be good in this meta. Companions like Lurrus, Zirda, Lutri, Gyruda mean seeing fewer Okos and Uros, which also means fewer Veils. Even the Wasteland decks aren't playing 4 Wasteland anymore. The only Companion deck playing Veil and Oko is the 4/5, and their copies are diluted over 80 cards. Overall there's less stuff that punishes Grixis Control. Meanwhile redundant creature removal is ideal because everyone has Commanders ready to deploy.
Edit: Yeah, I remember that questionable double Daze. He did get lucky from some opponent misplays. That game was hilarious. My Twitch stream glitched on that turn and skipped ahead a minute... The board state went from him double-Wasted vs an opponent with 2 lands and a threat, to an opponent with 0 creatures and 0 lands while he had 2 lands and drew Wasteland! I had to go back to see how he got so far ahead in so little time.
Here is a cool Lutri deck that placed 26th in the Legacy challenge over the weekend:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-05-03#andremarini_th_place
Planeswalker (2)
1 Dack Fayden
1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
Creature (12)
1 Bonecrusher Giant
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Elvish Reclaimer
1 Gilded Goose
1 Hexdrinker
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Young Pyromancer
Sorcery (5)
1 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
Instant (20)
1 Abrade
1 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Crop Rotation
1 Daze
1 Dismember
1 Fire // Ice
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Intuition
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Punishing Fire
1 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Stifle
1 Thought Scour
1 Vapor Snag
1 Veil of Summer
Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library
Land (20)
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Waterlogged Grove
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blazing Volley
1 Cindervines
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
1 Lutri, the Spellchaser
1 Mystical Dispute
1 Null Rod
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Return to Nature
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
The matchup can be viewed on Anzid's VoD. The game and match was lost to a sizeable punt concerning P-Fire and forgetting about Lutri. The list went hard on milling self and Uro, and left Lutri without any must-counter spells to protect or duplicate. Still, nice to see people taking Lutri out for a spin and doing well with it; someone has to get those 2012 RUG Delver pilots spooked that maybe an Otter is a serious contender for best RUG deck. :cool:
kinda
05-05-2020, 05:24 PM
So...crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, and tainted pact right now seem like the most broken things to otter to me...wondering if BUG could work. Something like:
1 crashing footfalls
1 ancestral vision
1 tainted pact
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 preordain
1 portent
1 berserk
1 fatal push
1 collector ouphe
1 wilt
1 oko
1 uro
1 fow
1 fon
1 counterspell
1 spell snare
1 delver
1 tnn
1 tarmogoyf
1 consuming vapors
1 thoughtseize
1 sylvan library
1 gilded goose
1 bop
1 delve pump thing
1 bitterblossom
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 abrupt decay
1 assassins trophy
1 mythos of brokkos
1 scooze
1 green sun's zenith
1 cabal therapy
1 crop rotation
1 living wish
1 elvish reclaimer
1 Once Upon a Time
1 leovold
1 vampire hexmage
20 L
1 thespian's stage
1 dark depths
SB:
1 Luttri
1 submerge
1 thespian's stage
1 dark depths
1 seedtime
1 null rod
1 duress
1 veil of summer
7 ?
You're paying an incredibly high price in a number of ways. Win percentage is taking a hit over just playing Lurrus. Dreadhorde Arcanist sees Footfalls and Ancestral in yard. Wilt is not FoV, so no combo with Lutri.
Counterspell is borderline unplayable by itself, and definitely can't be played before Drown. Are you sure you meant Consuming Vapors?
You're adding hypervariance [of strategy] 2card Monty stuff while going down on kill spells, and almost none of it is aided by the presence of Lutri. You're also losing 3x REB effects. I feel like you don't need to resolve a Tainted Pact to make a Marit Lage to win a game of legacy.
So...crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, and tainted pact right now seem like the most broken things to otter to me...wondering if BUG could work.:
The moment you play black (or even white) you play Lurrus companion.
kinda
05-05-2020, 07:11 PM
The moment you play black (or even white) you play Lurrus companion.
I'm figuring Lurrus goes very soon so not building with him.
@fox: I forgot drowned, thx. I very rarely run blue. Red might be just better this is more out of curiosity, similarly I just think wilt is quite good. Lots of things in red seem good with Luttri but nothing seems "broken". Yes, imagine consuming vapors rebound plus Luttri :cool:.
@fox: I forgot drowned, thx. I very rarely run blue. Red might be just better this is more out of curiosity, similarly I just think wilt is quite good. Lots of things in red seem good with Luttri but nothing seems "broken". Yes, imagine consuming vapors rebound plus Luttri :cool:.
I mean that’s a 4 mana play over 2 turns; if you wanted something like that I think you go harder on self-mill and have 1x Dead Drop. Also you can be Wastelanded down to 1 land and still cast this. I just don’t like cards that you bring to a game 1 that require your opponents to play creatures that matter. I like kill spells like Vapors and Maelstrom Pulse even less if I have to get to 3-4 mana to make the spell playable against an opponent who is probably on Lurrus/Wasteland/Daze.
RUG LULtri 26th place on Saturday:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2020-05-03#andremarini_th_place
This list went harder on control:
-no Delver or aggro 1 drops
-Snapcaster Mage
-Counterspell
-20 lands
-Loam engine
-planeswalkers
No badtrips like Opt or Serum Visions.
I was surprised to see 0 GSZ. Looks like a mistake. Even if they're metagaming around Cage for Lurrus, GSZ is still too good.
No badtrips like Opt or Serum Visions.
I don’t think Thought Scour gets a pass on being called better than Opt, and neither is better than Peek telling you when you can go all-in on Lutri. They upshifted mana costs and added a cantrip that’s worse at finding lands. There was also this other little problem where Lutri had no must-counters to copy.
Ancestral Vision and Crashing Footfalls should both be there. They're just too strong with Lutri, even if not copied.
Peek is better than any of the badtrips due to the information, as we saw in Ark4n's games. But I see the situational value of Thought Scour because of graveyard-dependant cards like Uro, Loam, and Punishing Fire.
They upshifted costs slightly but also increased the land count and added land recursion.
There are some cute Intuition packages like:
-Loam, PFire, Grove
-3 removal
-3 counters
-Uro, Loam, Waterlogged Grove
Ancestral Vision and Crashing Footfalls should both be there. They're just too strong with Lutri, even if not copied.
It’s worth a separate post here to reiterate what you have said, and to make sure when people see the list from the challenge that YP should be immediately removed for Dreadhorde Arcanist - he can flash those two payoff cards back. Also with all the self-milling that deck was doing, it was still incorrect to play YP over Dreadhorde (even without Footfalls/Ancestral).
—
Generally speaking, YP is a card that should be heavily scrutinized any time it shows up in a list, as its relevance continues to spiral towards fringe playable. Grixis Delver is the last bastion of hope for YP, and this is a Daze deck playing Karakas and Badlands...recurring Bauble and Seal of Fire...neither of which make token triggers...in a format where the most played PW can steal your army in a can.
kinda
05-06-2020, 05:35 AM
I've been trying to think of other things "broken" with luttri, is mindstab good enough? Right now crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, crop rot, and tainted pact (cuz singleton not luttri) seem like the best things. Considering things like eldritch evolution too.
mistercakes
05-06-2020, 10:47 AM
I've been trying to think of other things "broken" with luttri, is mindstab good enough? Right now crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, crop rot, and tainted pact (cuz singleton not luttri) seem like the best things. Considering things like eldritch evolution too.
if you're playing an aggro deck, i can see a case for fury of the horde. at least it's still in red. ideally you can give this guy haste so you get an extra 6 damage. ancestral vision and fireblast also seem very strong as mentioned.
t1 bear. t2 bear + burn? (attack for 2-4?) t3 attack for 4 + 7 + 7 (assuming you can find a way to make it have haste)
Fury of the Horde and Fireblast are too much of a liability, as they sit in hand until late-game. Every payoff burn spell is just less powerful than Footfalls. You don't want to play aggro with UR singleton vs Goyf, there's no worse color combination for it. You beat Goyf head to head with Goyf, Uro, Mag. Sinkhole. Then out-grinding them with Lutri/Oko/Klothys/suspend payoffs, all backed up by Karakas.
Fury of the Horde should probably only be played in mono-red Rabblemaster prison.
--
On Mindstab, there's no point in copying with Lutri, and Dreadhorde can't see it. This card is a liability, and it puts you on should-be-Lurrus colors
Smea.gol.lum
05-06-2020, 03:02 PM
The moment you play black (or even white) you play Lurrus companion.
I don't think that we should eschew black only because of Lurrus. He won't stay for long anyway.
Here's my BUG version Lutri:
1 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Veil of Summer
1 Drown in the Loch
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Fatal Push
1 Murderous Cut
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Portent
1 Tainted Pact
1 Wishclaw Talisman
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Sylvan Library
1 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Once Upon a Time
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Aluren
1 Shardless Agent
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Gilded Goose
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Elvish Reclaimer
1 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
21 Lands:
1 Karakas
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Prismatic Vista
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wasteland
SB:
1 Lutri, the Spellchaser
1 Plague Engineer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Null Rod
1 Duress
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Force of Vigor
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Unmoored Ego
Cards to consider:
LED, Hymn to Tourach, Rite of Undoing, Watcher for Tomorrow, Eternal Witness
The deck is built around Lutri, Aluren and Tainted Pact.
I've been trying to think of other things "broken" with luttri, is mindstab good enough? Right now crashing footfalls, ancestral vision, crop rot, and tainted pact (cuz singleton not luttri) seem like the best things. Considering things like eldritch evolution too.
3cc cards like Evolution are too slow for Lutri targets. It could happen in rare grindy games, but shouldn't be the main role of the card. Lutri targets should be 0-1 cc.
Mindstab is bad, as Fox said. Suspending advertises what you're doing so they will play out their hand. It's unlikely they'll have 3 cards when it resolves, and definitely not 6. Ancestral and Footfalls are better because their value isn't conditional on the opponent's state.
Magmatic Sinkhole and Murderous Cut are good 1cc cards. Snuff Out costs 0 mana. Submerge in the SB can cost 0. These are examples of ways you can cheat value and copy effects that should be costed at higher mana, without suiciding yourself like Fireblast or Fury of the Horde.
The deck is built around Lutri, Aluren and Tainted Pact.
What do you loop with Cavern Harpy to win? I don't see any payoffs other than card draw (Strix/Uro) and Lutri.
If your payoff is Lutri, you can go off with just Tainted Pact (copy to find both Aluren and Cavern Harpy). But then you exile much of your deck and may not have many tools left to abuse with Lutri. Do you have a way to just win the game on the spot once you have Aluren? Meanwhile Aluren and Harpy seem like bad draws outside the combo, and copying Tainted Pact could find any other 2-card combo instead.
Have you tested it? That seems inconsistent in a singleton deck without more tutor effects. Think how many tutors get run in Commander combo decks. Do you want more tutors? Lim-Dul's Vault? Splash for Recruiter?
Your deck is adding a substantial amount of variance. It’s helpful to provide a breakdown of what the deck actually is when it’s singleton. So the Pact/Aluren list is:
-21 land - why are these singletons? Tainted Pact ain‘t good enough to justify this
-7 cantrips, including Astrolabe. Lutri does not require singleton lands, and you’re not playing enough snow to turn on Ice-Fang (you’re even playing non-snow basics x3), so there are profound structural flaws. Astrolabe is probably fine by itself off 3x snow land, but you’re never playing Ice-Fang over Field of the Dead if you‘re splitting basics snow/non-snow..
-7 counterspells (only assigning half a card value to Muddle and Therapy)
-4 removals
-4 anti-Lutri reliable 1-card combo payoffs (Sylvan, Oko, Uro, Pact)
-1 generically good card: GSZ
-13 creatures, most of which cannot contribute to combat effectively (you‘re dying to Goyf right now)
-9 high-jank (6 are accounted for above, this category accounts for last 3 slots in the 60): Aluren, Narset, BoP, Wishclaw, Shardless, Harpy, Ice-Fang, Shelldock Isle, Arbor (if RUG Delver can‘t open a game with Arbor pass, neither can you - especially when you‘re playing all 1x land for some reason). There‘s just way to much ramp here, and then you want to tap-out for a 2/2 that has a pretty high chance of ripping over a GSZ/mana dude/cantrip/Muddle/Fluster - what is Shardless doing in this deck?? Why are we trying to assemble Aluren + Shardless + Harpy in a singleton pile - can’t Tainted Pact just draw your whole deck for 2 mana with just 1 card?? Why is a 21 land deck with 3 mana dorks needing to Shelldock a card it can just cast?? Note that all that land you‘ve got has 12x lands that can‘t go to the graveyard - this devastates your chances of riding Uro to victory.
Your deck lacks payoffs for Lutri to proactively copy or protect...you have Ancestral and not even Footfalls. You say Lurrus will be banned which tells you there is a 100% chance the format will be full of targets for FoV (Yorion has Astro/Abundant Growth, every Fox deck has an overabundance of mana rocks) - and this spell is free, which means you‘re passing on Lutri quad-Disenchants.
Just because the requirement is singleton, doesn‘t mean you have to play 2card super-monty.
nimkee
05-10-2020, 07:29 AM
Its been good reading all your previous posts, lots of great ideas!
I found some content for Lutri. This guy starts off with UR, then moves to RUG, and then to 4c. I'm sure all of you will disagree with at least one of the builds this guy uses in each set of colors (he switches it up a lot). Its nice to see it all in action though. Again, he switches his lists up quite a bit. I hope to see him put up some more videos.
https://www.youtube.com/user/masan96321/videos
I plan on trying UR out at the FNMs this week (we do two a week, one on Monday and one on Friday), and then moving on to RUG. I think RUG is much better, but do want to just give UR a try to see how it performs. Being able to run blood moon and b2b seems decent in some matchups, along with PoP. Just focusing on counter and burn probably does give the deck a bit more consistency as well. I'll post here later if anyone is interested, along with a list.
It would be great to here about anyone else sleeving it up and giving it a go.
The white splash is interesting. It allows some great cards:
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Monastery Mentor
Teferi, Time Raveler
Sevinne's Reclamation
I like the overall emphasis on planeswalkers too. Lultri is one of the few Commanders that doesn't really punish any of the walkers, which are all underplayed now because of Lurrus.
The biggest vulnerability seems to be the manabase.
There are some other cards I think don't belong, but it's also easy to see no impact of those cards in a small sample size of games with a singleton deck.
If it’s 4c you play Astrolabe, if it’s 3c Lutri it’s better to play Lurrus. Looking past the whole better things to be doing, Plow is fine, Path is medium. Mentor is not a card you want to play against Oko ultimate, and it isn’t nearly as good at winning by itself as Oko or Uro; on the plus side you can only play one Mentor (the correct amount) since casting a second Mentor doesn’t trigger prowess. Sevinne’s in fine, the deck almost wants a Regrowth effect anyways.
Teferi needs his own paragraph to explain... There is no such deck that competes in legacy by spamming Astrolabe without Oko (i.e. Teferi + Astrolabe spam isn’t competitive). Lutri can’t use the passive other than locking opponent out of countering Ancestral/Footfalls when aggressively trying to copy with Lutri (getting into A then B then C combo jank territory). Using Teferi without Astrolabe or manlands is only viable in a dedicated combo deck as a 3 mana discard spell [targeting blue cards] that sometimes can remove a lock piece. This card is not good enough for legacy play without correct use (or parasitizing the fact that Oko is still somehow legal). Just ask your local Blade player how jamming “good” cards [incorrectly-used JVP and completely unsupported Teferi] that they like is working for them.
Mentor is not a card you want to play against Oko ultimate, and it isn’t nearly as good at winning by itself as Oko or Uro; .... Teferi needs his own paragraph to explain... There is no such deck that competes in legacy by spamming Astrolabe without Oko (i.e. Teferi + Astrolabe spam isn’t competitive).
You talk as though these things are mutually exclusive, but the 4c (RUGW) deck he linked has Oko and Uro too. Did you even look at the deck before commenting on it? It runs white in addition to green, not instead of. You can't run 2 Okos or 2 Uros, so Mentor and Teferi aren't competing with those cards. They're competing with the 35th-40th card slots.
RUG does struggle to remove creatures that don't die to burn. This is a weakness that white helps with (StP, Path), at the expense of weaker mana.
kinda
05-10-2020, 10:36 PM
Its been good reading all your previous posts, lots of great ideas!
I found some content for Lutri. This guy starts off with UR, then moves to RUG, and then to 4c. I'm sure all of you will disagree with at least one of the builds this guy uses in each set of colors (he switches it up a lot). Its nice to see it all in action though. Again, he switches his lists up quite a bit. I hope to see him put up some more videos.
https://www.youtube.com/user/masan96321/videos
I plan on trying UR out at the FNMs this week (we do two a week, one on Monday and one on Friday), and then moving on to RUG. I think RUG is much better, but do want to just give UR a try to see how it performs. Being able to run blood moon and b2b seems decent in some matchups, along with PoP. Just focusing on counter and burn probably does give the deck a bit more consistency as well. I'll post here later if anyone is interested, along with a list.
It would be great to here about anyone else sleeving it up and giving it a go.
I like in at least the one video he's got 3 force of will's in the SB. I'm feeling like it's correct to lose Lutri vs. turn 1 or 2 combo decks to pick up the forces.
You talk as though these things are mutually exclusive, but the 4c (RUGW) deck he linked has Oko and Uro too. Did you even look at the deck before commenting on it? It runs white in addition to green, not instead of. You can't run 2 Okos or 2 Uros, so Mentor and Teferi aren't competing with those cards. They're competing with the 35th-40th card slots.
RUG does struggle to remove creatures that don't die to burn. This is a weakness that white helps with (StP, Path), at the expense of weaker mana.
Yes I’m sure it did, but it absorbed variance into its manabase in a singleton deck. That’s just advertising ‘loses to Wasteland’ to the Lurrus decks, and without testing you come back to any companion deck that can cast Lurrus should probably just do that (plus or minus how much you want to build to exploit mana rocks ~Kraken/Fox).
So now we’ve given opponents (on 4-of construction) an easy out to steal games for what exactly? Teferi and Mentor don’t take over games (certainly not to the degree of effortlessness that Oko and Uro do). The question becomes how much are you willing to compromise the mana base beyond a Karakas to stretch for these (with what are going to be Wasteland-susceptible islands that can’t always contribute to what the deck is doing). Both Mentor and Teferi are highly susceptible to losing to Oko in a vacuum (and probably Uro too), and we’re bending over backwards to reach for them why exactly?
The white removal is great (Plow) to medium (Path), assuming they’re not Fetching you into oblivion; I don’t disagree. The payoffs are not good enough though. I have never seen any evidence that one successfully plays Mentor or Teferi to beat Oko. Beating Lurrus is comparatively easy (kill it and their deck has no recovery mechanism), so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to look at other cards from the perspective of “how does this help me beat Oko (and the Uro/Ice-Fangs he’s played with).” There’s not really another question worth asking a legacy deck to answer than those two cards (and the usual suspects they see play with), assuming the combo matchup is reasonable.
nimkee
05-12-2020, 10:57 AM
I like in at least the one video he's got 3 force of will's in the SB. I'm feeling like it's correct to lose Lutri vs. turn 1 or 2 combo decks to pick up the forces.
That does seem like a real option, though what feels a bit scarier is the redundant combo decks like elves or zirda where the card advantage is also an issue. I would definitely consider it.
nimkee
05-12-2020, 11:06 AM
Here's a short tournament report.
The first 3 matches are from yesterday’s FNM, the last are matches I was testing with a friend. One thing he said is that he felt incredibly favored starting the matches but by the end was surprised by the decks ability to pull out wins, and also that it is *really* hard to play around anything given the nature of the deck.
Grim Fox 0-2
Both games I mulled and kept land heavy hands, not wanting to go down any further. He landed repetitive combo piece after combo piece. It wasn’t even close, though I feel that this match should be better. When you mull, then opp lands a karn it feels horrible (on top of them having a companion..).
4c no red snoko 2-1
These games were really good. I barely took game 1 on the back of just beats and burn. Loam and waste kept him slightly restricted on mana. I find myself really only using loam once or twice and that usually is enough. G2 I got him down to 5 after he had cast uro 3 times. He cast it a final time, and then attacked 3-4 times with it. I had a TNN and was real close but couldn’t quite get there. I scooped as he went to 18.
G3 we forced each other's early sylvan libraries. He untapped and hit me with b2b t3 or 4 I think, but I had a noble, reclaimer, and royal scions, which pumped the reclaimer and I swung until opp was at 8 life and scions were at 8 loyalty. I risked the veil he didn’t end up having and went for it.
Karn post stompy
I turn 1 waste his cloudpost, then pierced his next spell. He played a needle on wasteland but I burned and attacked him down. G2 he starts off with a needle but I started with a grudge that took out the needle and a monolith. I hit a couple more wastelands while attacking him down, always keeping him off critical mana.
UR Delver (haste / burn build) 1-2
These games were swingy. We wasted each other back and forth. A late game intuition into loam let me get ahead and take it. I lost game 2 to a large sprite dragon after removing his first few threats. G3 I lost to my own play mistake. I tried to get cute and snag a dragon, which got blasted. I tried to copy it with lutri but lutri got dazed and it was a blowout. If I had just incinerated the dragon instead opp could have still pumped the dragon up but I could have snagged it and opp would have been out cards, and at a low life total with me and an active goyf plus an unused lutri.
Them the beats. Lost to my own misplay.
Elves 2-1
The inconsistency in removal is one of the more difficult parts. G1 I got stomped and combo-d. G2 my removal lined up very well with fork into snap fork plus lutri into more burn. G3 He landed a quick choke that I couldn’t counter. I had a volc and a grove. I untapped and played waterlogged grove into zenith for a noble. It ended up being a very long and grindy game, with opp landing an archon off a cavern and me playing jace to bounce it a few turns in a row while I beat down with lutri and some other nonsense. Opp tapped out to play a craterhoof and just win the game with me at a low life total but I had force.
Also played 4 pre-side games against Maverick. It felt even-ish, 2-2. Both were swingy games. Green really pulled its weight in these games, along with the delver matchup with scooze and loam. Goyf can also just..get in there.
I mostly copied the 4-2 Challenge list, from Andre4marini I believe. I changed a few things. I added Royal Scions, and GSZ. Both were very good in the matches where they showed up. GSZ is especially good. My first few matches green felt like it didn't do much, though the last few matches it was 100% the reason I was able to stay in the games. The deck is SUPER fun. I often forgot to not shuffle my companion into my deck and had to be reminded about the reveal a couple of times. Its odd playing with this new mechanic.
1 Dack Fayden
1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
1 Bonecrusher Giant
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Elvish Reclaimer
1 Gilded Goose
1 Hexdrinker
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Abrade
1 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Crop Rotation
1 Daze
1 Incinerate
1 Fire // Ice
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Intuition
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Punishing Fire
1 Royal Scions
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Thought Scour
1 Vapor Snag
1 Veil of Summer
1 Sylvan Library
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Waterlogged Grove
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blazing Volley
1 Cindervines
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
1 Karakas
1 Lutri, the Spellchaser
1 Null Rod
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Return to Nature
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 JTMS
Reeplcheep
05-12-2020, 12:17 PM
I think the biggest payoffs for lutri are the suspend spells since they are so much faster (since they are free on the turn you cast them). I think you probably want to build around a punishing waterfalls shell instead of 4c goodstuff one. Otherwise I don't think he's worth losing 3 fow.
Additionall Release to the Wind is infintite etbs & cast triggers with lutri and is probably worth building around.
Additionall Release to the Wind is infintite etbs & cast triggers with lutri and is probably worth building around.
I don’t see how this card offers anything not already covered by Karakas. You’d be giving opponents a way back into the game by having this in your opening hand and engaging in a long sequence of get to 3 mana, do a Lutri thing, cast this spell, and then probably need another untap step to do something with Lutri. After the printing of Brazen Borrower, I don’t think a card like this can be justified b/c it’s also anti-Depths.
Reeplcheep
05-12-2020, 12:55 PM
I don’t see how this card offers anything not already covered by Karakas. You’d be giving opponents a way back into the game by having this in your opening hand and engaging in a long sequence of get to 3 mana, do a Lutri thing, cast this spell, and then probably need another untap step to do something with Lutri. After the printing of Brazen Borrower, I don’t think a card like this can be justified b/c it’s also anti-Depths.
If you cast this card and cast lutri in response, lutri can copy it targeting itself. Allowing you to cast lutri again for free, and copy it again. Giving you infinite etb & cast triggers that turn.
Karakas isn't free. This was mentioned on an eternal glory podcast.
If you cast this card and cast lutri in response, lutri can copy it targeting itself. Allowing you to cast lutri again for free, and copy it again. Giving you infinite etb & cast triggers that turn.
Karakas isn't free. This was mentioned on an eternal glory podcast.
So you cast this 3 drop spell targeting something, then also have 3 more mana to cast Lutri to copy it...and your opponent is just going to let all this happen (i.e. they’re not just going to counter your spell after you cast Lutri holding priority - and we’re in a 6 land drops made point of the game). Then you can exile Lutri with the copy, then recast Lutri to repeat this loop for what benefit???
^This is bad deck construction. This is a convoluted combo needing all kinds of things to go right, which means that if it’s working, your opponent died a long time ago and this is just winmore. You don’t have to work this hard when all you have to do is put a must-counter spell on the stack, and if opponent goes to counter it you cast Lutri and get it anyway. If the opponent is playing a strategy that can’t stop you, or they can’t fight back (perhaps confirmed by Peek), then you offensively double-up game ending spells. Just note that those must-counter spells have to be must-counters by themselves.
Karakas is a cost in decks that are playing 4x Daze and Karakas + Badlands/Bayou/Plateau, yes. Those deck also don’t have a Crop Rot or GSZ/Reclaimer. There is a cost in Lutri, but you would win more games with it in your deck than without. Karakas is uncounterable and does the whole Lutri spam combo by itself, there is no reason to resort to janky cards with mana cost demands (Lutri already costs 3 on the turn you would use him).
Reeplcheep
05-12-2020, 01:51 PM
So you cast this 3 drop spell targeting something, then also have 3 more mana to cast Lutri to copy it...and your opponent is just going to let all this happen (i.e. they’re not just going to counter your spell after you cast Lutri holding priority - and we’re in a 6 land drops made point of the game). Then you can exile Lutri with the copy, then recast Lutri to repeat this loop for what benefit???
^This is bad deck construction. This is a convoluted combo needing all kinds of things to go right, which means that if it’s working, your opponent died a long time ago and this is just winmore. You don’t have to work this hard when all you have to do is put a must-counter spell on the stack, and if opponent goes to counter it you cast Lutri and get it anyway. If the opponent is playing a strategy that can’t stop you, or they can’t fight back (perhaps confirmed by Peek), then you offensively double-up game ending spells. Just note that those must-counter spells have to be must-counters by themselves.
Karakas is a cost in decks that are playing 4x Daze and Karakas + Badlands/Bayou/Plateau, yes. Those deck also don’t have a Crop Rot or GSZ/Reclaimer. There is a cost in Lutri, but you would win more games with it in your deck than without. Karakas is uncounterable and does the whole Lutri spam combo by itself, there is no reason to resort to janky cards with mana cost demands (Lutri already costs 3 on the turn you would use him).
I just feel if you are going to play 4c goodstuff you should just play yorion.
You are probably correct that it is too expensive to have a 6cmc combo, but I think that highlights why this deck wants to play in more of a cascade/suspend shell.
but I think that highlights why this deck wants to play in more of a cascade/suspend shell.
This has been my position throughout the entire thread, yes. This is good enough to win games, and there is no reason to jank out for some convoluted winmore when the payoffs are already independently good without needing Lutri, yet they can all combo with him.
Grim Fox 0-2
Both games I mulled and kept land heavy hands, not wanting to go down any further. He landed repetitive combo piece after combo piece. It wasn’t even close, though I feel that this match should be better. When you mull, then opp lands a karn it feels horrible (on top of them having a companion..).
Because you're not playing 4 FoW, you need to compensate by running other answers to fast combo. This means you probably need things like Force of Vigor (another Turn 0 answer) and GSZ into Collector Ouphe in the maindeck. That should help your TES, Bomberman, and Stompy matchups too. Luckily most explosive combo is artifact-based right now.
To help the combo matches you probably need every turn 1 counter too: Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Stifle, Veil of Summer, Daze, Flusterstorm, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast. You want the same % of combo answers as a 4-of fair blue deck, otherwise combo will stomp you before Lutri comes online.
UR Delver (haste / burn build) 1-2
These games were swingy. We wasted each other back and forth.
I think this is a classic mistake. UR Delver can run off 1-2 lands. Lutri needs 3-4 lands. The mana hungry deck shouldn't Waste the low-cmc deck for tempo. Trading lands 1-for-1 favors them and disadvantages the mana hungry deck. Lutri runs Wasteland, but it should be used for surgical strikes (e.g. remove Karakas, kill Depths, cut them off double black so they can't cast Lurrus), not general manascrew.
I watched some Lutri streams where other players made the same mistake and then struggled to do much. Lutri needs its mana. Lutri can't capitalize on the tempo of the opponent missing a land drop the way Delver can. Don't try to beat Delver at tempo. Play a ramp game and beat them with card advantage. You are the control player in that matchup, they are the aggressor.
Elves 2-1
The inconsistency in removal is one of the more difficult parts.
Pyrokinesis and Submerge in the board give you more free answers. Free instants are really strong with Lutri.
I notice most of your removal is 1-for-1 or slow (Punishing Fire, walkers). Beating creature-heavy decks like Elves and Maverick with 1-for-1s is tough. Do you have room for any board wipes in the SB? Even a Pyroclasm effect? 1-of Blazing Volley doesn't seem like enough.
nimkee
05-13-2020, 12:55 AM
You can see from the list that I do run a lot of those cards but they are not the greatest against Fox and friends. I actually think there are enough maindeck answers but I had some pretty bad hands / draws. The deck is so redundant too that after I answer a fox, a couple monoliths, and a Karn, then he untaps with a Karn and fetches up a combo piece. Its a tougher matchup than I expected. This guy also runs a weird 3 color astrolabe version of the deck so has FoW and Veil backup.
Ouphe in the main is an idea, I might move it to the main.
I didn't crack my wastelands immediately, not until opp missed a land drop and I could take him off red one game, or until I had loam another. The deck can be quite mana-intensive.
Submerge was amazing. Pyrokinesis is an idea I hadn't thought of. I feel like I do need some other sweepers, maybe electrickery in the main wouldn't be so bad.
I have a stack of about 100 cards I considered. It feels like constructing an edh deck lol.
Because you're not playing 4 FoW, you need to compensate by running other answers to fast combo. This means you probably need things like Force of Vigor (another Turn 0 answer) and GSZ into Collector Ouphe in the maindeck. That should help your TES, Bomberman, and Stompy matchups too. Luckily most explosive combo is artifact-based right now.
To help the combo matches you probably need every turn 1 counter too: Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Stifle, Veil of Summer, Daze, Flusterstorm, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast. You want the same % of combo answers as a 4-of fair blue deck, otherwise combo will stomp you before Lutri comes online.
I think this is a classic mistake. UR Delver can run off 1-2 lands. Lutri needs 3-4 lands. The mana hungry deck shouldn't Waste the low-cmc deck for tempo. Trading lands 1-for-1 favors them and disadvantages the mana hungry deck. Lutri runs Wasteland, but it should be used for surgical strikes (e.g. remove Karakas, kill Depths, cut them off double black so they can't cast Lurrus), not general manascrew.
I watched some Lutri streams where other players made the same mistake and then struggled to do much. Lutri needs its mana. Lutri can't capitalize on the tempo of the opponent missing a land drop the way Delver can. Don't try to beat Delver at tempo. Play a ramp game and beat them with card advantage. You are the control player in that matchup, they are the aggressor.
Pyrokinesis and Submerge in the board give you more free answers. Free instants are really strong with Lutri.
I notice most of your removal is 1-for-1 or slow (Punishing Fire, walkers). Beating creature-heavy decks like Elves and Maverick with 1-for-1s is tough. Do you have room for any board wipes in the SB? Even a Pyroclasm effect? 1-of Blazing Volley doesn't seem like enough.
This guy also runs a weird 3 color astrolabe version of the deck so has FoW and Veil backup.
That's the better version of Fox. The Salvagers version is easy to disrupt. The Bant version has better protection and card draw. I would expect to see more of that version. I've been testing Bant Fox since before the release. It's more resilient against hate and can beat regular blue decks with the full set of counters, so singleton really needs to have enough answers.
not until opp missed a land drop and I could take him off red one game
Can you really take him off red though? With blue he has 4 Brainstorm + 4 Ponder + X Preordain + fetches to find red again. Meanwhile you're down at least 2 lands (you Wasted each other)... Did you have 3-4 lands left or a Loam after you cracked that Waste? If not, you probably needed the land more than him. How did you end up losing that game?
I just think trying to color-screw a 2-color 1-drop tempo deck is like a control deck trying to race an aggro deck.
It's like how Goblins plays against Delver. Sure they run Waste & Port, but they win more blue matches by casting Ringleader than by trying to manascrew a tempo deck (if Vial/Lackey didn't stick). Old UW Landstill used to do the same thing. Tapping Wasteland for mana is tech.
Old UW Landstill used to do the same thing. Tapping Wasteland for mana is tech.
We still do. Colorless land mismanagement is one of the easiest ways to throw a game. It’s important to think about the mana costs of future plays, and how much you’re setting yourself back. Against the colored Fox decks it is likely more valuable to get to 4 mana with Wasteland and Lutri-Fork 1 mana burn spells and counterspells directed at their walkers.
nimkee
05-13-2020, 03:57 AM
The game I lost I didn't waste him, though I did get wasted myself. It was funny as I went to remove the sprite dragon he had fow to back it up, but he also had fireblast and PoP in hand. It was brutal. Edit: I do actually use wasteland as much for mana as I do wasting, unless I have a loam around or an excess of lands. The snoko list I played against I did make an exception as they didn't have a labe out yet and I was able to cut him off a color for a few turns.
I would really like access to basics but am not sure the deck can actually support it, even if just an island and a forest. I've also wondered if a Taiga would be okay. It would really help with choke, as waterlogged / mana dork and wasteland did. The deck is more mana hungry than I anticipated and because of that I am considering adding a bird to the dork list.
Any thoughts on the basics, bird, or taiga?
Is anyone else testing builds?
That's the better version of Fox. The Salvagers version is easy to disrupt. The Bant version has better protection and card draw. I would expect to see more of that version. I've been testing Bant Fox since before the release. It's more resilient against hate and can beat regular blue decks with the full set of counters, so singleton really needs to have enough answers.
Can you really take him off red though? With blue he has 4 Brainstorm + 4 Ponder + X Preordain + fetches to find red again. Meanwhile you're down at least 2 lands (you Wasted each other)... Did you have 3-4 lands left or a Loam after you cracked that Waste? If not, you probably needed the land more than him. How did you end up losing that game?
I just think trying to color-screw a 2-color 1-drop tempo deck is like a control deck trying to race an aggro deck.
It's like how Goblins plays against Delver. Sure they run Waste & Port, but they win more blue matches by casting Ringleader than by trying to manascrew a tempo deck (if Vial/Lackey didn't stick). Old UW Landstill used to do the same thing. Tapping Wasteland for mana is tech.
nimkee
05-15-2020, 12:03 PM
2-0-1, the draw was to Lurrus Grixis Delver, that I had the win on board for but we went to time after a long, long grindy g2. I changed the list a little. – Daze, - Crop rotation. + V. Clique + Jace.
1 Dack Fayden
1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
1 Bonecrusher Giant
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Elvish Reclaimer
1 Gilded Goose
1 Hexdrinker
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 V. Clique
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Abrade
1 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Incinerate
1 Fire // Ice
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Intuition
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Punishing Fire
1 Royal Scions
1 JTMS
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Thought Scour
1 Vapor Snag
1 Veil of Summer
1 Sylvan Library
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mystic Sanctuary
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Waterlogged Grove
1 Lutri, the Spellchaser
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blazing Volley
1 Electrickery
1 Cindervines
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
1 Karakas
1 Null Rod
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Return to Nature
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
2-0 Bant Zirda.
Game 1 my removal just barely lined up and we were both close to top-deck mode. I lutri’d abrade at the end for double removal. G2 I brought in 7 sideboard cards, 2 blasts null rod cinder ouphe return and grudge. I wasted a tundra, then opp misread Lutri thinking it was one of lands too so fetched a tundra which I wasted. His tomb took him low enough and I had a very reactive hand full of permission and removal. Cindervines and his own tomb did about 14 or so points of damage to him.
1-1 Grixis Lurrus Delver.
I got delvered, almost stabilized with an Uro. He didn’t get bauble but was casting delvers from the yard. G2 I won off of an early sylvan, oko, and goyf after eventually stabilizing. No bauble again this game though recurring spellbomb was a thing. He had to take out his own gy after my goyf got big and he didn’t have removal. G3 I started off with an early loam lock and basically the win on board. Opp went to counter loam and I had veil back up. I couldn’t get it in turns but it was there for the taking.
2-0 UR Delver
G1 I stabilized at 3 life, cast a Jace and fate-sealed away the rest of the game until I had close to lethal on board and some permission in hand. I was never in a strong enough spot to cast Lutri.
It was a very close game. G2 I only sided in 4 cards, the blasts and a cindervines. G2 I kept a hand with bs, fluster, and intuition. Opp kept a burn heavy hand. He cantripped and at 4 lands chained me, I chained back, he chained back, and I flustered it. With 4 mana up I intuitioned, which resolved and I grabbed wasteland, uro, and loam. He gives me loam. I played a fetch and had 5 lands in the yard so cast Uro, drew and played and wasted one of his lands. He untapped and double chained Uro. I brainstormed into pyromancer, snag, and hexdrinker. I played pyro with some cards up to cast, and by next turn had filled my yard to escape uro again. Opp scooped. Lutri was also a nonfactor in this game.
The green splash is very strong against any fair decks or delver strategies. The green splash out of the board was good against Zirda as well.
Reeplcheep
05-15-2020, 05:50 PM
2-0-1, the draw was to Lurrus Grixis Delver, that I had the win on board for but we went to time after a long, long grindy g2. I changed the list a little. – Daze, - Crop rotation. + V. Clique + Jace.
1 Dack Fayden
1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
1 Bonecrusher Giant
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Elvish Reclaimer
1 Gilded Goose
1 Hexdrinker
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 V. Clique
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Abrade
1 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Incinerate
1 Fire // Ice
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Intuition
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Punishing Fire
1 Royal Scions
1 JTMS
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Thought Scour
1 Vapor Snag
1 Veil of Summer
1 Sylvan Library
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Mystic Sanctuary
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
1 Waterlogged Grove
1 Lutri, the Spellchaser
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blazing Volley
1 Electrickery
1 Cindervines
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
1 Karakas
1 Null Rod
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Return to Nature
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
You have more ETBs than you have cheap spells worth copying. I really think you need to play into the suspend/cascade shell or I don't see what lutri offers over yorion..
You're handicapping yourself by playing cards like Incinerate. If you're paying 2 mana it should exile; otherwise Rift Bolt. There are also better cards than Cspell. Vapor Snag maindeck seems excessive unless you're playing in a paper meta with known Depths users. Also, where is Dreadhorde.
nimkee
05-16-2020, 12:31 AM
The games where Lutri is relevant involve the threat of him. He essentially makes most of my spells "uncounterable." Only half of the times I pro-actively cast him to copy something does he or the intended copy target resolve. He does occasionally just flash in as a 3/2 attacker to quicken the clock, though that isn't too common. Two of the matches I played were against delver anyways so flashing in Lutri for cheap targets isn't usually ideal when you are facing down daze and wastelands. I like that the deck doesn't 100% rely on Lutri.
I'm likely going to try the cascade shell on Monday because there is a bit less combo in that meta than on Fridays, which seems more combo and delver. It does look interesting.
I first wanted to start off with the base build that the guy did well with in the Challenge and then slowly switch things up. While lots of people seem to criticize his build, I don't see anyone else doing well with the lists they are proposing (or at least they aren't sharing). I didn't like a couple of the cards from the Challenge so I swapped them out. I really do like the cascade ideas and have the cards sleeved up and ready to test out next chance I get.
Initially I felt the same way but I am slowly seeing that the deck relies more on the threat of Lutri to let all of your spells resolve, or when you are both low on resources and you get to do something a bit more broken with the guarantee of it resolving. Dack, Scions, and Mystic Sanctuary also help ensure that I get relevant Lutri targets. Also, you say that I have more ETBs than cheap spells. I count 6 ETB effects. I count 21 potentially spells to copy (2 mana or less, not counting loam).
You have more ETBs than you have cheap spells worth copying. I really think you need to play into the suspend/cascade shell or I don't see what lutri offers over yorion..
nimkee
05-16-2020, 12:42 AM
You're handicapping yourself by playing cards like Incinerate. If you're paying 2 mana it should exile; otherwise Rift Bolt. There are also better cards than Cspell. Vapor Snag maindeck seems excessive unless you're playing in a paper meta with known Depths users. Also, where is Dreadhorde.
Incincerate deals 3 damage. It killed two arcanist, a stormchaser mage, a faerie dragon with 2 counters, and a zirda last night. The 3 damage is relevant. People in the room told me it was bad all night, but what I needed was a red spell that deals 3 damage. Rift Bolt is horrible against Zirda, or Dorat. I agree its not a good card but it has put in a ton of work so far, and Rift Bolt would have lost me all of those games where incinerate was relevant (even dreadhorde would have gotten a trigger in).
I agree there are better cards than Cspell. Mana Leak is better early game. I only cast Cspell once, and pitched it to a force twice. Its better in longer games and against decks that end up with lots of mana. With this particular manabase I think Cspell is playable, though if I were on a build without the "perfect delver mana" of 3 trops and volcs, I would change it out for something else.
There are some depths / land users. Vapor Snag has been surprisingly relevant. I've hit flipped delvers, Zirda, chumped with Lutri and bounced him to buy back something more relevant the next turn, slowed down an arcanist for 2 turns with lutri and got in for a couple of swings that changed a close game. I've wasted two Oko activations by bouncing an elk. I only took Snag out for the UR delver match last night. The tempo has consistently been relevant. In what way do you think it's excessive?
nimkee
05-16-2020, 12:55 AM
Just to clarify, I never said the list I'm playing is the best. I just took the one that did well and am giving it a try. A lot of your ideas (Fox / Reepl) are things that I also am considering / have considered. I have all of the cards that you suggested sleeved up and ready to go! These other seemingly suboptimal choices have turned out to be much better than I anticipated. I literally laughed when I sleeved up incinerate as I thought about how bad it was. Turns out it was crucial in many of my games as an expensive bolt.
A couple of things like crop rotation and daze didn't seem as good so I swapped them out for the second tournament. Daze seems bad in such a mana hungry deck (and as a one of).
For Monday I want to do more value stuff with cascade and arcanist / visions/ crashing, and also want to include at least a basic island / forest. Any suggestions on the manabase? There are some b2b and bloodmoons floating around the meta, and I would actually like to run moon in the board.
What cards would you guys remove / add for the value train version?
Magmatic Sinkhole is better than Incinerate and easier to copy with Lutri too.
Dismember is better than Incinerate and easier to copy with Lutri too.
Izzet Charm is probably better than Counterspell because being multi-modal is important in a singleton deck. It can counter spells, ping small creatures, or dig.
Because the online meta is full of blue right now, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast is probably better than Counterspell. It's 1 mana and has useful alternate modes like "kill Insectile Aberration" and "destroy target Oko". REB handles Stormchaser Mage and Faerie Dragon.
Stifle is also strong (land destruction, destroy target Storm player, target BR Reanimator loses 7 life but doesn't draw, stall planeswalkers, stop ETB value, stop Marit Lage, stop their Karakas from saving Lurrus, counter Yorion draw, mess up Zirda combo).
I think "perfect Delver mana" is wrong for Lutri. Delver needs all Islands for Daze and its many blue cantrips. Delver doesn't mind getting Wasted because it's so efficient (cantrips, low cmcs). Your Lutri doesn't have Daze and is much mana hungrier. You want some basics and maybe 1 Taiga to have fetching versatility (though with 3 Grove the Taiga may be overkill).
Arcanist + Footfalls + Vision seems important too.
Reeplcheep
05-16-2020, 12:46 PM
Initially I felt the same way but I am slowly seeing that the deck relies more on the threat of Lutri to let all of your spells resolve, or when you are both low on resources and you get to do something a bit more broken with the guarantee of it resolving. Dack, Scions, and Mystic Sanctuary also help ensure that I get relevant Lutri targets. Also, you say that I have more ETBs than cheap spells. I count 6 ETB effects. I count 21 potentially spells to copy (2 mana or less, not counting loam).
Any pw with a minus ability is essentially an etb. Copying counterspells is often hard to make worthwhile.
nimkee
05-16-2020, 01:06 PM
I like your suggestions. Zirda is an issue I have had problems with every week so Magmatic would often end up being too slow but I think dismember is a good alternative. I dislike it a bit against delver, especially UR, but it might be better in the main. Against zirda the life loss is irrelevant. Being able to bolt (incinerate), lutri it, then snap "bolt" is such a huge life swing that I do like being able to use it as such to quickly close out games.
You mentioned the exile part - pillar of flame is another card I have sleeved up that I was tempted to play. It has the upside of people not being able to buy stuff back with Lurrus (for the day left its legal).
I started out like the original list with pyroblast in the main but it was too 50/50. I like izzet charm a LOT but also want to be able to counter creatures or just have the hard counter up at times. Not being able to get rid of x/3s is something I worry about - arcanist and zirda are something it seems like I am seeing in half my matches each tournament (2/3 actually so far). The last mode is actually really good with sanctuary. Charm is a card I definitely want to check out. I'm not particularly impressed with cspell so far, not that its bad..just definitely a card I would try something else in place of.
Stifle is a great card. It doesn't combo with Lutri particularly well though. I do like it, though in my local meta its not necessarily the greatest at the moment. That will probably change post ban though.
I was thinking of one basic island and forest, 2 trops, 3 volcs, 1 mystic sanctuary, 1 taiga, and 2 groves. One of either Waterlogged or Fiery Islet too. 4 misty / 2 tarns / 2 foothills for a fetch base, and then 2-3 wastelands. How does that sound for a manabase?
I'm really looking forward to Footfalls and Visions on Monday. Hopefully I get to play them.
Magmatic Sinkhole is better than Incinerate and easier to copy with Lutri too.
Dismember is better than Incinerate and easier to copy with Lutri too.
Izzet Charm is probably better than Counterspell because being multi-modal is important in a singleton deck. It can counter spells, ping small creatures, or dig.
Because the online meta is full of blue right now, Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast is probably better than Counterspell. It's 1 mana and has useful alternate modes like "kill Insectile Aberration" and "destroy target Oko". REB handles Stormchaser Mage and Faerie Dragon.
Stifle is also strong (land destruction, destroy target Storm player, target BR Reanimator loses 7 life but doesn't draw, stall planeswalkers, stop ETB value, stop Marit Lage, stop their Karakas from saving Lurrus, counter Yorion draw, mess up Zirda combo).
I think "perfect Delver mana" is wrong for Lutri. Delver needs all Islands for Daze and its many blue cantrips. Delver doesn't mind getting Wasted because it's so efficient (cantrips, low cmcs). Your Lutri doesn't have Daze and is much mana hungrier. You want some basics and maybe 1 Taiga to have fetching versatility (though with 3 Grove the Taiga may be overkill).
Arcanist + Footfalls + Vision seems important too.
nimkee
05-17-2020, 02:14 AM
With Yorion the walkers come into play at the end of turn and you don't get to activate them again until next turn. Its really not all that useful when half or more of the walkers don't use their minus abilities and their ultimates are useful.
Even discounting the counterspells, which I wouldn't, there are still far more spells than etbs. As for counterspells Lutri is actually quite good with them, as some of them are free spells, the forces and possibly misdirection if you are running it, and with Veil you get to draw two cards. I play against blue at least half the time so its definitely something. Even if I am playing against Maverick or another green deck I can put Lutri on the stack and copy my counter to get their veil.
Any pw with a minus ability is essentially an etb. Copying counterspells is often hard to make worthwhile.
Tobitzki
05-19-2020, 12:27 AM
So post-Lurrus, we're allowed to brew Grixis and Jeskai with Lutri, since there's no strictly-better cat nightmare lurking around to nullify our Otter fun.
Here's what I have in Jeskai:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3032074#paper
It's very value/midrange, as I still don't think we can effectively tempo without Daze and Delver.
One of the principles here is to make every creature count, so even the 1-drops are must-kills (2 Moms, Lavaman, Bomat Courier; no Delver, no Swiftspear). We have enough removal to clear the way for Bomat and galaxy brains are always gonna know what he's hiding under there.
I think the white splash is worth it for the 2 exile removals alone. But I also really like the 2 Moms for protecting fragile haymakers/engines like Arcanist, Spellbelly, Sprite Dragon, Mentor, Geist of ST and Rielle.
SCM, Mission Briefing, Sevinne's Reclamation, Mystic Sanctuary to maximize access to our limited count of Tier 1 cards. Search for Azcanta as a poor man's Library and another way to get Ancestral Visions in the yard for Arcanist (along with 5 looting effects)
Of One Mind: currently there are 7 Humans (3x 1cmc; 2x non-human token machines), 9 non-humans (2 of them Adventure guys). Robber of the Rich or Abbot of Keral Keep over Bonecrusher Giant could be options to improve the odds of assembling inter-species tag team.
Unsure about some of the filler spells, this needs some testing and tinkering:
Izzet Charm (nice for its flexibility) vs. Fire//Ice (Forking 2 Strixes seems enticing)
Spell Pierce vs. Forked Bolt or Counterspell
Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor vs. Magmatic Sinkhole or Dismember
If combo gets strong I like that 3 Forces out of the sideboard idea.
Overall, I can see RUG (mana dork into T2 design mistake) still being the better Lutri build, but I'm not about to buy any Trops at this point. And this seems pretty viable to me.
EDIT: The Link now connects to my Grixis List. Oops.
You really don’t want to play shame island (Sanctuary) with that manabase, it won’t end well. Reille is pretty suspect (I see the payoff, but it’s not exactly hard to deal with her), and Mentor is really dangerous maindeck life choice against Oko the Gathering. The creatures are a bit conflicted (protection ladies) and Bomat; it’s a lot of not killing your opponent in a deck with good amounts of burn kinda going to waste.
None of your PWs can take over the game all that well, especially against Oko, but that’s a “why is Oko still legal” problem. The PW choices themselves seem fine otherwise. Given the discard’y stuff you’re doing you’d be much happier [???] with Escape-Elspeth over a Narset (I don’t see the benefit of 3 mana impulse into dies to Bolt/REB).
I feel like you could clean up the manabase a lot by focusing away from white spells and moving to Tarns full of Vista and have 1 Plains, 1 Karakas, 1 Plateau, 1 Tundra (if you really feel like you need to go basics, which you probably don’t without :w::w: spells).
As overpowered as Sevinne’s is, there’s just no permanents as 1-card combo’y as Uro/Oko/Klothys at the 3 mana spot. Geist is close-ish, but he attacks into a Coatl, dies, and their Oko will still be at 1 or 2 loyalty and you’d have lost your big payoff you splashed white for. Trying to assemble Geist + protection lady is heavy on the magical chistmasland side. This is one of those points where you kinda ask yourself if you just play RUG Lutri with the new cycling tri-Fetch to get the second white source (after Karakas) so you can play the 1x Sevinne’s, and end up in a better place.
In the spirit of all things playful and Otter’y and such, I’d do this in Jeskai:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3035922
Tobitzki
05-19-2020, 05:44 AM
You really don’t want to play shame island (Sanctuary) with that manabase, it won’t end well.
Yea, on second thought, I like this mana base better (there's probably no need for Wasteland and MD Karakas in the post-Lurrus meta):
4 Tarn | 4 Strand | 2 Vista
3 Islands | 1 Plains | 1 Mountain
2 Volcanic | 1 Tundra
1 Mystic Sanctuary
Sanctuary is one of those little hedges we have available to offset our inbuilt Lutri variance. Narset plays a similar role: in the absence of the proper cantrip cartel the double Impulse to dig for what we need becomes that much more valuable. As for the Royal Scions, I think they very much take over the game if left unchecked (not incrementally, but tic tic tic boom like); and their stats are on par with Oko (loyalty 6 right away). The PW that should probably be included here is good old Jace.
I like your idea of splashing for white just for Reclamation, though, since as I said, I generally agree that RUG looks more promising, what with ramping into 3cmc bombs and all.
I'm also starting to think that Grixis may actually be better than Jeskai: discard plays better than countermagic with Lutri, Bomat, Arcanist, Spellbelly, JVP, and Bedlam Reveler. Bob, Strix, K Command, Painful Truths, Drown in the Loch, maybe Angrath's Rampage all seem great in terms of value and/or versatility. And Gurmag is the rare body that trumps Yorion. Ultimately, any of these versions seems playable and fun at the very least.
nimkee
05-19-2020, 09:34 AM
Has anyone considered any of the Miracles with Sanctuary / Dack / Scions / Thought Scour / Bedlam / Search for Azcanta / Mission Briefing / Loam? Thunderous and Temporal could be pretty good.
One of the things I've found helpful against oko (aside from a clean answer like reb or ad) is having creatures with flash like borrower, or something to vial in (not helpful in our build). Borrower or Clique plus a bolt does the job.
I like the Grixis list, unearth / reanimate / entomb are pretty sweet. You could actually set up a turn where you eot entomb a Temporal and then miracle it, sanctuary it back and possibly Lutri it. You could take 2-3 extra turns, or 10-15 extra damage over 2 turns.
When I've tried to proactively use Lutri to copy something it seems to backfire on me at least 50% of the time when playing against blue. Sometimes it would lead to such a huge blowout that I go for it and then..they just had it. "It" once was a 3rd force (seems like a 5-6 of in decks these days). Its much better when I have a free counter in hand, or a veil, or could at least see what they had in hand via discard.
This deck can have 1 Brainstorm, we're not the right deck to play miracle cards.
Edit: you have to be really careful about being unable to see the forest for the trees. Stop looking for “cool” things to do, especially when it has multiple moving pieces and none of it really synergizes with Lutri himself. You’re burning win-the-game effects on Entomb for Mastery for shame island (Sanctuary) to set up what is effectively Explore. It’s important to step back from text on cards and clearly define what you’re doing is really called, in this case: 3 card Explore sequence that risks hands with shame island and inability to flush a 7 drop from hand.
The Reanimation stuff is pretty questionable too, stick to Kcomm or Sevinne’s; otherwise you’re locking yourself into inflexible and simplistic lines of play. The only one worth considering would be Reanimate b/c there is this idea that you can use discard as Entomb for a target from opponent’s hand, and Dreadhorde can recast it. You’d be in Grixis though so maybe losing life in a singleton deck without a backup mechanism isn’t the best idea.
Here’s how Entomb works: you play Uro (or some legacy-relevant recursive threat that Grixis probably doesn’t have printed yet, sorry Kroxa you’re bad), and Darkblast, and Cling to Dust. Note how Entomb is finding your value cards or the engine to enable their recursion - and this is all an instant with board impact (kill Ice-Fang, SCM, Thalia, anything by Infect, counter target Dreadhorde trigger, trade Uro into surprise 6/6 Grisel...and don’t worry, every time Uro attacks he can pull Darkblast to hand, see). Three desirable cards and an Entomb, all pretty reasonably able for Lutri to copy. The “cool” stuff has to have purpose.
nimkee
05-19-2020, 07:14 PM
To me Entomb does all those things plus the stuff I've already been doing with Intuition (Uro / Loam / p.fire / wasteland / drawland). I run enough walkers that setting up an extra turn (or two) to ultimate them could just win the game (scions and dack at least). I wouldn't entomb for mastery just to have something "fun" to do, I would use it if it enabled an attack with lethal burn in hand or something of that nature. It also synergizes with DA on board and suspend cards.
I've played with Cling before (stryfo pile) and it can be a bit difficult to escape multiple times if you aren't running a cantrip heavy deck or a deck like snoko where everything immediately replaces itself.
So far Sanctuary has been outstanding for me. It's won me multiple games (I've fetched back an incinerate twice!) and I only run a single one so starting with it in hand isn't such a big deal. Its helped a great deal with the consistency of the deck. Unearth is underrated. We have some good targets for it, can potentially be used with Lutri (though as I already mentioned I don't like using it proactively) and can cycle if nothing else.
I know I already asked this, but is anybody else actually playing this deck? Hearing some other reports in the new meta would be nice.
This deck can have 1 Brainstorm, we're not the right deck to play miracle cards.
Edit: you have to be really careful about being unable to see the forest for the trees. Stop looking for “cool” things to do, especially when it has multiple moving pieces and none of it really synergizes with Lutri himself. You’re burning win-the-game effects on Entomb for Mastery for shame island (Sanctuary) to set up what is effectively Explore. It’s important to step back from text on cards and clearly define what you’re doing is really called, in this case: 3 card Explore sequence that risks hands with shame island and inability to flush a 7 drop from hand.
The Reanimation stuff is pretty questionable too, stick to Kcomm or Sevinne’s; otherwise you’re locking yourself into inflexible and simplistic lines of play. The only one worth considering would be Reanimate b/c there is this idea that you can use discard as Entomb for a target from opponent’s hand, and Dreadhorde can recast it. You’d be in Grixis though so maybe losing life in a singleton deck without a backup mechanism isn’t the best idea.
Here’s how Entomb works: you play Uro (or some legacy-relevant recursive threat that Grixis probably doesn’t have printed yet, sorry Kroxa you’re bad), and Darkblast, and Cling to Dust. Note how Entomb is finding your value cards or the engine to enable their recursion - and this is all an instant with board impact (kill Ice-Fang, SCM, Thalia, anything by Infect, counter target Dreadhorde trigger, trade Uro into surprise 6/6 Grisel...and don’t worry, every time Uro attacks he can pull Darkblast to hand, see). Three desirable cards and an Entomb, all pretty reasonably able for Lutri to copy. The “cool” stuff has to have purpose.
I don’t think you’re really understanding this. Entomb cost 1 mana, Cling costs 1 mana, Darkblast costs 1 mana - all of them can be reasonably expected to be copied by Lutri. Darkblast is not a textless card, and it not only un-cestral’s [mills] towards Cling and Uro, it is making escape fuel. You attack with an Uro and now you’ve got this card you can dredge back to hand off the draw trigger that says “eff your Coatl, take 6 buddy” - and if they untap an kill Uro, there’s a 100% chance your GY is gonna have 6 fuel + Uro in it by the time your main phase rolls around; so the Uro’s never stop here, and this is like the one thing BUG can do that RUG can’t.
(I don’t think BUG is good enough even with the Cling to Dust/Uro/Darkblast/Entomb abuse engine, but it’s way more sound than whatever Grixis is doing - namely losing to Wasteland while having no must-counters for Lutri to protect/copy, all while nuking their own life total down to 0 with unplayable P-Truths and thinking shame island will make up for it, or that they can ever recur a Kroxa vs Wasteland)
Loam is sorc speed, unable to really effect the board outside Wasteland recursion, it costs 2, it doesn’t offer to make 3 life for Sylvan to transmute into cards, and it fights with Uro for yard resources. You’re not really answering any problems in the format, which means you’re at the mercy of whatever your opponent is doing and hoping your uninteractive engine will be good enough. Loam/Intuition stuff is pretty heavily skewed towards this assumption that your mana is online and that you can take an entire turn off to cast Intuition, and another turn to untap and cast Loam, and then make it to your next turn to deploy that Uro - it’s a little on the winmore side, except you’re also giving opponent time (drawsteps) to interfere. Intuition’s backup plan once Uro goes to exile is find P-Fire and never have a reason to Loam again which seems a little anemic compared to Entomb finding mid to late-game yard-interactive draw engine (which removal spells can’t touch).
Just contrast the differences there: Intuition stuff does this one aggressive thing, Entomb stuff does whatever it needs to because it can react in multiple different ways with value redundancy and threat of board interaction. StryfoPile is not where you want to look for relevant corollaries; we’re looking to see if we can construct a deck to proactively establish the mana (through anticipated resistance) such that we *potentially* harvest easy wins off Delver decks and still have all the silly value firepower down the stretch for the Uro/Oko/Coatl/Yorion derping.
As a rough draft (which I don’t think stacks up against what RUG’s red offers maindeck): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3037619#online
If you would like to see Grixis Lutri in action watch Legacy_Council’s twitch VoD today. It showcases a lot of good stuff about Grixis, but also exposes the deep flaws that color set can never overcome.
Tobitzki
05-19-2020, 10:22 PM
@nimkee: I'm only homebrewing at this point; not gonna get a chance to play this out until June, unfortunately. But I agree with you: we absolutely need to lean into Mystic Sanctuary. The graveyard is our path around too much singleton-variance.
Entomb: Mystical Tutor with live Sanctuary. Ox of Agonas (not Kroxa!). Shenanigans (SB). Cabal Therapy (SB). Tutor spells for Arcanist (e.g. Visions), Snap, JVP, Mission Briefing, Kess (latest addition; in Jeskai this could be the new Apex of Thunder). Tutor creatures for Reanimate, Unearth, K Command (maybe Dead//Gone). These are more than enough redundant synergies to make Entomb one of our strongest tools. 9 other looting or surveil effects enhance this GY toolboxing. In general, we can build this deck in a way that squeezes either max. value or flexibility out of each card.
@Fox: yea, that 4C version doesn't look great; if you'd stop thinking about Uro for a second I think you'd see that a Grixis list (with basics and Sanctuaries, plus 3 red blasts vs. Uro if you must) is much more coherent. If life total really turns out to be an issue, Tragic Lesson or Of One Mind are possible alternatives to PT.
Cling to Dust: another potential Entomb target, but I'm concerned about keeping the GY filled, too.
Darkblast: I had considered this, but it's super meta dependent and right now is not the time (not much DnT, Elves, Infect, or Bobs around). Generally speaking, I'd rather run Forked Bolt.
Force of Vigor: Not a maindeckable card ever.
Will definitely check out Ark4n's VoD, thanks for the heads-up.
nimkee
05-19-2020, 11:10 PM
I do understand, we just don't seem to agree on everything.
Intuition has been great for me in any non-combo match, which is most of what I face locally. I also like playing on my opponent's turn, which Intuition lets me do. More than say do one and not the other, I would consider doing both. If the meta moves away from Delver then I would lean towards 4c with no white for ad / at / leo / entomb, and very likely cling.
I'll avoid the "you don't understand" statements and just point out that Loam has repeatedly won me games against Delver decks, and helped me pull out wins against elves as well as maverick. Its not always the waste-lock; sometimes getting back a wasted grove for p.fire, pulling fetches for mystic, or recurring a draw land while making fuel for Uro fall into your category of "not affecting the board". Its a synergistic package that gives me flexibility. Entomb can add some redundancy in this case by fetching up these parts when intuition is not available.
Darkblast doesn't do much in my meta, other than occasionally kill a coatl. Using it assuming I have a boardstate of Uro attacking into a Griselbrand seems...pretty corner case. I don't play online so combo isn't as much of a thing. Your meta might be a lot different than mine though. If my meta was characterized by DnT and Infect, sure, I'd sleeve up Darkblast. While it does get an unflipped delver, its not exactly great against the rest of the deck. Using it to stop an arcanist trigger is the only thing it does that P.fire wont' for me.
I made the comparison with stryfo pile because it plays the same cards but has many more cantrips and 3 dack to help fill the yard. In the RUG version that I've had decent success with locally and in testing, escaping Uro more than a couple of times can be difficult, though that may change in the new meta (people aren't recurring spellbombs / crypts anymore, though scooze is still around).
Thanks for the link, and also for taking the time to write up some feedback on these ideas. The initial list I tested wasn't mine, and only after playing it did I start to appreciate some of the choices that may not seem "right" to people. Its a new meta now though so I'm excited to brew, test, and will continue sharing my results.
I don’t think you’re really understanding this. Entomb cost 1 mana, Cling costs 1 mana, Darkblast costs 1 mana - all of them can be reasonably expected to be copied by Lutri. Darkblast is not a textless card, and it not only un-cestral’s [mills] towards Cling and Uro, it is making escape fuel. You attack with an Uro and now you’ve got this card you can dredge back to hand off the draw trigger that says “eff your Coatl, take 6 buddy” - and if they untap an kill Uro, there’s a 100% chance your GY is gonna have 6 fuel + Uro in it by the time your main phase rolls around; so the Uro’s never stop here, and this is like the one thing BUG can do that RUG can’t.
(I don’t think BUG is good enough even with the Cling to Dust/Uro/Darkblast/Entomb abuse engine, but it’s way more sound than whatever Grixis is doing - namely losing to Wasteland while having no must-counters for Lutri to protect/copy, all while nuking their own life total down to 0 with unplayable P-Truths and thinking shame island will make up for it, or that they can ever recur a Kroxa vs Wasteland)
Loam is sorc speed, unable to really effect the board outside Wasteland recursion, it costs 2, it doesn’t offer to make 3 life for Sylvan to transmute into cards, and it fights with Uro for yard resources. You’re not really answering any problems in the format, which means you’re at the mercy of whatever your opponent is doing and hoping your uninteractive engine will be good enough. Loam/Intuition stuff is pretty heavily skewed towards this assumption that your mana is online and that you can take an entire turn off to cast Intuition, and another turn to untap and cast Loam, and then make it to your next turn to deploy that Uro - it’s a little on the winmore side, except you’re also giving opponent time (drawsteps) to interfere. Intuition’s backup plan once Uro goes to exile is find P-Fire and never have a reason to Loam again which seems a little anemic compared to Entomb finding mid to late-game yard-interactive draw engine (which removal spells can’t touch).
Just contrast the differences there: Intuition stuff does this one aggressive thing, Entomb stuff does whatever it needs to because it can react in multiple different ways with value redundancy and threat of board interaction. StryfoPile is not where you want to look for relevant corollaries; we’re looking to see if we can construct a deck to proactively establish the mana (through anticipated resistance) such that we *potentially* harvest easy wins off Delver decks and still have all the silly value firepower down the stretch for the Uro/Oko/Coatl/Yorion derping.
As a rough draft (which I don’t think stacks up against what RUG’s red offers maindeck): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3037619#online
If you would like to see Grixis Lutri in action watch Legacy_Council’s twitch VoD today. It showcases a lot of good stuff about Grixis, but also exposes the deep flaws that color set can never overcome.
@nimkee
The Otter theme is silly, but we’re trying to get to a serious list here. You were throwing out some real jank with this Entomb for Temporal Mastery for Sanctuary stuff, and then you had followed up with Temporal Mastery being justified by PWs, but also you are using this for lethal via extra turn stuff. You’re also doing the Intuition stuff, which is a personal preference (i.e. it’s fine), but there is an underlying theme where you skew towards isolating Lutri from contributing in a midgame and having this amorphous/wandering tempo intervals (the Intuition stuff).
It’s great if this Sanctuary/Incinerate/Intuition-Loam stuff is working for you, but it’s important to not take the Intuition stuff (anti-Lutri) and try to apply it to optimal use of Entomb (pro-Lutri) <- these hypotheticals are where the concerns about not understanding come from. Intuition is one of those cards that is generally being cast when ahead (so it’s going to seem better than it is b/c it’s easier to win from a state where you’re ahead), but with Entomb stuff you really need to be precise about accomplishing a set of goals (because you’re using this to shape how you’ll get ahead) - and this starts as early as turn 1. Intuition presents a puzzle, whereas [non-Grisel] Entomb prospectively pokes the biggest hole it can in an opponent’s defenses (and if found later will be used to end the game as a tutor targeting 1-card value combo).
Whatever value package you go for (whether Intuition or Entomb stuff), the cards all need to work together. There’s no real sequence to disrupt when you have an Entomb/Darkblast*/Uro/Cling, they all bounce around and adapt, and Lutri “sees” each of these decision points at a much higher frequency (and quicker pace) with the option to intervene. If your Entomb stuff is for Sanctuary/Temporal Mastery jank, Lutri can’t “see” anything - that means you’re dropping win % at the point of deck construction. You play Entomb with the Otter, you need him to be able to jump off the bench and help out. Right now I think you’re in this honeymoon period with Intuition where opponent’s don’t realize that exiling Uro from yard would be singularly devastating, and expose your deck as one where Lutri will struggle to pull the game back in your favor by himself. This is a key weakness, and you seem to have overlooked it thinking it’s business as usual where Entomb can be played loosely. If they exile that Uro somehow, your big mana Intuition play probably isn’t giving you a great way back into the game.
*remember that this deck has creatures with >1 toughness, Darkblast self is not purposeless (in the case that opponent has nothing to hit).
—
@Tobitzki it’s more that Uro is doing the same thing as the other 3cmc payoffs (Klothys and Oko), they are all pointed at extending the game via lifegain. They do all kinds of other things, including just winning the game outright b/c they’re 1-card combos, but for me it’s about that redundant overlap [i.e. consistency in singleton shell]. You need to be able to trust that your cards, regardless of name in the upper left, are doing what the deck sets out to accomplish. I consider this list a success if it turns games against Delver into bye rounds, and that’s why I value the Uro and RUG shell.
Grixis Lutri just gets rolled by Wasteland +/- Daze tempo attacks, and then they really struggle to ever outpace Bolt down the stretch. Grixis need mana assurances, and failing that it needs its turns/life back (i.e. it needs to negate attacks). This is the trap with Grixis: if they run to kill spells they start auto-losing to Tundra, and god forbid they try to fight opponent’s Uro with destroy effects. This set of priorities leads to Grixis’ classic self coup-de-grace where they play shame island to help vs 4c value pile and in so doing shoot themselves in the foot vs Delver. It’s a vicious spiral, and I don’t see the way out for them.
On Darkblast, I value its backup goldfish applications. On FoV, I’m going to need to see convincing evidence that the meta isn’t playing hard into quad-Naturalize, especially with this Yorion nonsense. I think it’s got enough game against Delver [RUG Lutri that is] to absorb 1 FoV in game 1. I’m also okay with it’s random upside like vindicate target Chancellor triggers on turn 0 to clear the way for FoW/FoN. It comes down to your meta, but I think FoV is more likely to win a game maindeck than something like Misdirection**. The choice for me is even easier if people are going to play sloppy legacy and tap down 5 mana at sorcery speed for a Yorion and walk into up to 4 missed draws and loss of all color fixing (and that’s when they’re not blowing themselves out with Yorion’s EoT Stifle-bait). Again it’s about that consistency of effect I want from singleton (in this case brutalizing Yorion); meta-decks are sitting ducks, and if there’s one thing Otters like more than swimming it’s playing Duck Hunt.
**now if we’re talking Grixis which notably can’t play creatures that don’t get rolled by Dreadhorde flashing back Bolt, and has no 4/4 rhinos, then turning a Bolt back on the enemy Arcanist will become a higher priority effect.
Tobitzki
05-20-2020, 03:35 AM
@Fox: Just watched Ark4n: what a fun deck this is, can't wait to sleeve it up. But the stream reconfirmed that I'd rather play 5 basics (3|1|1) than have access to a single Hymn (i.e. my Grixis doesn't die to WL; I could even stick a B2B and a Blood Moon in the board). It also confirmed my suspicion that running all of Gurmag, Sinkhole and Murderous Cut overtaxes our GY (I like Ethereal Forager, Lavamancer and Murderous Cut here; not removing Uro and Oko kills Sinkhole for me atm).
You're right about Grixis' greatest weakness being lack of exile removal. My hope is that we can get away with 3 Blasts and 4+ ways of flashing them back vs Snoko. But the life loss issue you mention is incidental rather than structural; it can be easily adjusted (e.g. I'm on the fence about Bob and Bitterblossom rn; also see my comment about Painful Truths below). RUG, however, has its own problems removing x/4+ creatures beyond that single Oko. I think Push, Cut, Drown, etc. go a long way towards dealing with anything not named Uro.
And we don't agree on Force of Vigor and Darkblast and that's fine. I prefer cards like Angrath's Rampage, Dreadbore or maybe Blitz of the Thunder-Raptor here: for 2 mana they don't fuck around. I also put Portent and Mental Note back in for more consistency and Lutri and flashback payoffs. Here's my updated list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3032074#paper
PS: I do hope your original RUG list gets donated so we can see it in action.
Cling to Dust probably needs to be in your maindeck, I don’t think you want to have Entomb in deck and not have answer to Uro, Sevinne’s, Snapcaster, and Dreadhorde.
nimkee
05-20-2020, 11:31 AM
I tested a half dozen more matches with RUG, the last 4 of which were using two basics (island and forest) main. These actually helped quite a bit and didn't seem to hurt the mana base as much as I thought it might. I switched the waterlogged out for an islet, and dropped wasteland #3 for mystic sanctuary as I expect the meta to move back towards snoko and more basics. I'm up to 20 lands with this build. I might cut a grove, but otherwise it feels quite good. I probably would not play sanctuary if there were another single non-island land in this deck. The forest and 2-3 groves is as far I'd be willing to push it.
Its tricky to test lutri builds because of all the singletons. That being said, here are some notes on various card choices.
I hit ancestral quite a few games and surprise surprise drawing three is really good. The deck (this version at least) always seems to have something to do with its mana so it never felt like I was waiting for visions to go off. I never got to cast footfalls so can't say how good it really is. I definitely like AV. Footfalls might go for something more high impact / flexibility.
I cast dreadhord a couple times but it immediately got removed (AD twice, two different decks). It sort of made me want to test Jace like in the grixis list in the stream Fox mentioned. In particular I like that any instant / sorcery gets the flashback, not just cmc 1.
Vapor snag put in some decent work tonight by helping me race and getting some tempo in. I tried a Bloodbraid Elf too that I cast a total of 3 times. I hit a tarmo once but the other times were counter magic and a gsz. It is nice that BE has haste and can swing into an oko. It will likely be cut.
Adding the 3rd mana dork is another improvement I recommend. I went from hierarch and goose to adding a 3rd in the bird. Goose has occasionally kept me in games with food but also can feel bad at times. Overall its been a positive but there are times I wish it were a bird. Hierarch not making red has been an issue at times. Gsz being able to fetch a dork has been great. Hexdrinker with mana open and scooze have also been good gsz targets.
The temporal started in my opening hand one game, a one lander that I mulliganed. I never saw it again, despite having scions and dack dig (or having 15 cards left in my deck at one point). If I decide to run Temporal again it would have to be with a misdirection build (a 3rd force to pitch it to if it gets stranded in hand) and some more natural looting. I'm shocked I never saw it between the looting and dredging.
Intuition has continued to be good for me. It won me a couple of matches on its own, through loam / waste and uro. The 4th time I escaped Uro I think I only had 15 or so cards left in my deck. Uro is seriously broken and I have ended up relying on it a lot. Being able to get it with gsz or Intuition adds a lot of consistency (as I'm sure entomb would). Royal Scions continues to do well. I killed someone with the ultimate again.
The green cards continue to get me win after win - sylvan library, uro, and loam (and to a less extent the mana dorks, hexdrinker, and scooze) have won me several games.
@Fox when I mentioned planeswalkers with entomb / temporal it was not really that I was building around it, but that if it ended up in hand I would have some ways of ditching it. Its floor (as you mentioned, explore), as opposed to its ceiling, is probably lower than what we want to make the best Lutri deck (which seems odd to say when talking about a singleton deck).
Fox I saw your comments in chat. I was thinking some of the same things, you pointed out a lot of good plays that would have stopped him from losing some games. Please let us know if he ends up streaming your deck.
For anyone interested you can test your brews with the beta version of xmage, and also have the AI pilot a deck. It seems to competently pilot Delver and Snoko, but not so much (read: at all) with other decks that have broader decision trees (toolbox decks for example). For those of you who are cooped up because of quarantine or what-not hopefully that helps.
If anyone wants to test it on MTGO I have Esper Vial, though my timezone is probably pretty different from most of yours (currently 11:30pm at the time of this post).
Cling to Dust probably needs to be in your maindeck, I don’t think you want to have Entomb in deck and not have answer to Uro, Sevinne’s, Snapcaster, and Dreadhorde.
nimkee
05-22-2020, 09:03 AM
Fox, could you post the list that Ark4n piloted on stream today?
It was definitely a fun list to watch in action. I thought it was mostly the deck you suggested accept for a few cards, but I came in late to the stream so didn't catch that part in the beginning.
If you’ve watched all his Lutri matches I think it’s hard to defend Kroxa more than any other card. The trigger just doesn’t matter (doesn’t ever convert a game into a win), and it rewards opponents for playing any mana denial. Granted the card isn’t always drawn, but Kroxa feels like it’s playable (i.e. getting escaped) at a rate around 1 in 15-20 games. It’s a trap card, and I don’t understand the Stockholme syndrome Ark4n has going for it b/c it’s clearly holding him back.
The new VoD (from yesterday) is pretty good at pointing a finger at Mystic Sanctuary as an especially suspect card for Grixis. Maybe there was a game where the only reason he won b/c he could recur a spell? I think in a color set with such profound mana issues, that it’s really hard to defend shame island over basic Island or Badlands. I’m also not loving the end-of-league assessment of going up to 21 lands to continue to justify shame island; the deck still has a Delver in it and the colorset is still light on spells to recur that play nicely with Lutri - and that’s kind of to expected with black (so like Hymn for example, by the time you could buy it back and threaten Lutri with it, the opponent won’t have 4 cards).
Serum Visions is not good. A theme that runs through his games is “I can’t get my mana set up” + Serum Visions and Thought Scour/Mental Note does not equal getting your mana up. I don’t know that you can fix this with grixis colors, but it’s a structural cantrip weakness that needs to be taken more seriously when deciding keep or mull.
The only other card that’s not pulling its weight Gurmag. Not that he can’t cast it, but it antagonizes yard resources for Mag. Sinkhole and Cut. It’s a high price to pay for a card that has a poor matchup vs Oko/Uro/Coatl. It’s so bad in the meta right now that I think you’d have a hard time saying this card is better than Tasigur [i.e. you’re not likely to run into enemy Gurmag and need a 5th point of power], especially if you’re going up to 2 Karakas (legendary supertype cannot be removed by Oko).
So those are the cards I think hold the deck back, though I think it’s really more just a Grixis colors problem. I’ll write up more on the league later.
edit: Grixis still has the life loss issues, but I think you get more keepable hands (Fetch + Noxious >>> Fetch + shame island), redundancy of desired effects (works with Lutri to copy), and potential turn 0 interaction of Noxious Revival than shame island. The deck also isn’t that far off from wanting the option to Entomb for Dakmor (when it isn’t tutoring it’s best card, Cling to Dust).
The other card that needs to go is Narset, almost forgot about this one. This card is a huge waste of a payoff slot, and consistently rots in hand b/c singleton deck can’t defend nor create a boardstate for 1UU sorc speed Impulse. Also the whole point of Lutri is to see *if* it can do all the ridiculous stuff while still consistently beating Delver; and Narset is the worst card for the job, she’s overpriced and dies to Bolt, Delver attack, and REB...and with the life issue of Grixis, the opponent also has the option of ignoring her and going for life total.
nimkee
05-23-2020, 12:56 AM
Good comments!
I feel the same way about Kroxa but didn't want to say anything as its harder on a streamer to deal with negativity and play optimally at the same time. I was hoping to just see it in action, but with all the cards that "cantrip" in decks these days it just doesn't seem great.
Karakas seemed too cute at first but definitely pulled its weight with Lutri (which we conveniently start each and every game with). I like that it buys back Jace too if he gets hit by removal. Then there is the V.clique draw control.
Its interesting to see a larger sample size with sanctuary. It has been fantastic for me but I'll be damned if Ark4n didn't get it at a bad time at least once a match. Its odd because that only happened to me once in maybe 12 matches now. For him though yikes...and my mana-bases have been worse for it than his (groves and wastelands). I was curious about the 21 lands bit myself. I run 19-20 with 2-3 wasteland, but also run 3 mana dorks which the RUG version *really* makes good use of.
I was curious about serum, and only run the thought scour myself because of loam / p.fire / uro / intuition (there are some other corner cases its useful, but just that, corner cases). I don't like Mental Note. How do you feel about Opt?
Delver and daze were both cards I cut awhile back and haven't missed. What do you like about the one of daze? I guess it at least pitches to a force late game. I really dislike that it sets back are mana, especially in a version with out accelerants.
I thought Gurmag was questionable but put it on my test list regardless. It looks bad against Uro and Oko on top of using gy resources. With a resurgence of RUG delver Gurmy might be better positioned. I like Narset in the board at least for snoko decks. I see so many coatls/birds, labes, and uro in my meta that she pulls her weight. In the online meta though I'm not so sure. With more blasts floating around she definitely loses value.
I'm more in favor of Lutri builds that don't tap out much and play on opponent's turns. That's one of the reasons I was drawn to the UR version when I initially saw Lutri, despite its weaknesses. There's a certain tension from tap out threats like the walkers or uro that are necessary evils. Fortunately in RUG the mana dorks help with this. Also of note with RUG, with the 4 maindeck life gain sources I feel like I'm starting the game at 25-26 life per game minimum. Sometimes I end up going up 15-20 life...its ridiculous, and difficult to overcome for many decks.
If you’ve watched all his Lutri matches I think it’s hard to defend Kroxa more than any other card. The trigger just doesn’t matter (doesn’t ever convert a game into a win), and it rewards opponents for playing any mana denial. Granted the card isn’t always drawn, but Kroxa feels like it’s playable (i.e. getting escaped) at a rate around 1 in 15-20 games. It’s a trap card, and I don’t understand the Stockholme syndrome Ark4n has going for it b/c it’s clearly holding him back.
The new VoD (from yesterday) is pretty good at pointing a finger at Mystic Sanctuary as an especially suspect card for Grixis. Maybe there was a game where the only reason he won b/c he could recur a spell? I think in a color set with such profound mana issues, that it’s really hard to defend shame island over basic Island or Badlands. I’m also not loving the end-of-league assessment of going up to 21 lands to continue to justify shame island; the deck still has a Delver in it and the colorset is still light on spells to recur that play nicely with Lutri - and that’s kind of to expected with black (so like Hymn for example, by the time you could buy it back and threaten Lutri with it, the opponent won’t have 4 cards).
Serum Visions is not good. A theme that runs through his games is “I can’t get my mana set up” + Serum Visions and Thought Scour/Mental Note does not equal getting your mana up. I don’t know that you can fix this with grixis colors, but it’s a structural cantrip weakness that needs to be taken more seriously when deciding keep or mull.
The only other card that’s not pulling its weight Gurmag. Not that he can’t cast it, but it antagonizes yard resources for Mag. Sinkhole and Cut. It’s a high price to pay for a card that has a poor matchup vs Oko/Uro/Coatl. It’s so bad in the meta right now that I think you’d have a hard time saying this card is better than Tasigur [i.e. you’re not likely to run into enemy Gurmag and need a 5th point of power], especially if you’re going up to 2 Karakas (legendary supertype cannot be removed by Oko).
So those are the cards I think hold the deck back, though I think it’s really more just a Grixis colors problem. I’ll write up more on the league later.
edit: Grixis still has the life loss issues, but I think you get more keepable hands (Fetch + Noxious >>> Fetch + shame island), redundancy of desired effects (works with Lutri to copy), and potential turn 0 interaction of Noxious Revival than shame island. The deck also isn’t that far off from wanting the option to Entomb for Dakmor (when it isn’t tutoring it’s best card, Cling to Dust).
The other card that needs to go is Narset, almost forgot about this one. This card is a huge waste of a payoff slot, and consistently rots in hand b/c singleton deck can’t defend nor create a boardstate for 1UU sorc speed Impulse. Also the whole point of Lutri is to see *if* it can do all the ridiculous stuff while still consistently beating Delver; and Narset is the worst card for the job, she’s overpriced and dies to Bolt, Delver attack, and REB...and with the life issue of Grixis, the opponent also has the option of ignoring her and going for life total.
I like that singleton Daze is a card no opponent can ever respect, and it they do it’s to our benefit. In corner cases you can save a land from Wasteland (or reset a Sanctuary if that’s what you’re doing), and there’s a lack of other counters which would be more effective.
Mental Note, Thought Scour, and Serum Visions as fairly poor cantrips compared to Opt, as the objective is finding lands. If the spell can’t do that it at least needs to provide info (Peek). Before any of those three I’d probably be looking at Adventurous Impulse, Oath of Nissa, or possibly Grapple with the Past.
Tobitzki
05-24-2020, 07:59 AM
quick takes:
Daze: 100% agree there, @Fox; I also put Pierce back in after seeing how Lutri turns it live even late in the game. I agree with @Nimkee: What I think needs to go of the remaining tempo cards is Delver. Too bad a topdeck and opening with one just isn't a reliable game plan. Maindeck Plague Engineer instead.
Gurmag: Yea, I never liked the Fish here. We have better things to do with our graveyard (see above: M Cut & Ethereal Forager in; Sinkhole, Gurmag out)
Cling to Dust: OK, included. Entombing for it asks for a looot of resources, though. That's a mid- late-game line for Snoko, it won't save you vs. GY Combo
Cantrips: Thought Scour & Mental Note are only justifed when leaning into the GY as a resource, which is the correct way for Grixis to hedge against Singleton sickness: I'm running Entomb, Reanimate, Unearth, K Command, Lavaman, SCM, JVP, Mission Briefing, Arcanist, Spellbelly, Kess, and Mystic Sanctuary (incl. blue fetches for MS, that's 15 ways of accessing spells + 3 for creatures). Search for Azcanta, in any case, is better than any of the 3rd rate 1cmc cantrips (of which Opt is the least egregious, yes). I'd be careful with those green manafinders though, @Fox: isn't the whole point of cantrips that they're not dead topdecks later on?
Mystic Sanctuary: @Fox you can't be serious suggesting Noxious Revival (card disadvantage) and then some jank-box comes-into-play-tapped black land in the same breath as dismissing Sanctuary?
re: Ark4n's stream: you're totally right, @Nimkee, not always useful to shout at the streamer from the sideline. When I tuned in late for his last Lutri league (with basic lands), he was obviously struggling with fatigue and focus and the suboptimal plays kept piling up. In that context it's extremely encouraging that the deck was still able to hang with the mighty Snow pile. And I super appreciate him putting Lutri on the map like that.
But if you build the mana base--and then actually fetch--correctly, I really don't see a good reason to walk into Delver and Moon Stompy with zero basics. Just keep your Hymn in the sideboard.
4 Tarn | 4 Delta | 2 Vista | 3 Islands | 1 Mountain | 1 Swamp | 2 Volc | 2 USea | 1 Sanctuary (plus 1 Karakas I guess)
= 17x U (not counting MS) 13x R / B. And we can talk about turning 1 Vista into a Badlands.
My Jeskai list, meanwhile, has turned into a pretty aggressive tempo deck with 9 Prowess(ish) beaters, One of Mind (10/18 humans) and a low curve topping out with Mentor, Geist, Royal Scions and Bedlam.
There are different dominant problems for Grixis than exist for Lutri with green - namely that the mana is reliably horrible. Look at all those games played and bad mana is the primary driver of avoidable losses; it’s more consistently a problem than not drawing the effect you want in a singleton deck. Mystic Sanctuary is a significant contributor to this problem, and does not recoup lost win % in lategames by necro’ing a spell (when this happens, the game is usually already out of reach for opponent).
Dakmor could only be played in the context of Entomb, and only in a deck with mana security issues (Grixis). It’s not good, but it’s probably the safest play Grixis can make. Same with Noxious Revival, early game interaction/mana security/Regrowth effect you can copy down the line. I wouldn’t even attempt Grixis in the first place, but if I’d have to I’d feel way better about it doing either of these tools than shame island...I’d even take just a basic Island over it.
Now does Entomb work in Grixis (and by extension Dakmor)? Eh, not really. There is no payoff for them to Entomb (Uro), but yes it really is that important that they find Cling to Dust. The problem is that it’s more important to find Cling (lifegain) as your mana (and life total) is collapsing so putting in the yard leads to problems (costs 4 now). This is again the Grixis problem, whereas RUG and BUG can consistently draw their lifegain payoff cards since they’re a 3-4 of (Uro, Oko, Klothys or Cling +/- Entomb). Without this clear plan you start turning Bolt into a live topdeck for Delver opponents, and that’s a primary mechanism by which you to start losing the matchup.
What you need to be more worried about than green cantrips that can find lands, dudes, or sometimes a PW [these aren’t land-only cantrips] - particularly when building like Ark4n (he has a BUG VoD) does without GSZ + 2 mana dudes. You can’t go around dying to mana screw aided by Sanctuary and non-finders (Mental Note, Scour, Serum Visions) and pretend everything is fine and the deck doesn’t need to be fixed. Move away from Delver in RUG and you’re moving into Snapcaster, so again get your lands when you need them and your dudes when you don’t.
On the delve-whale, I’d take Lutri double-dinks with Sinkhole over it. I don’t think the card is real, and it’s not a position I’d re-examine until Oko is banned. Lots of tension between it and Uro + Cling or Dreadhorde (safer ways to turn yard into value).
nimkee
05-25-2020, 12:18 PM
I went 2-1 again tonight, beat Yorion snoko, lost to 4c snoko no-red, and then beat Yorion snoko again.
I went with the more value oriented list. Visions was mostly good, though late one game I just drew 3 lands off it so it didn't matter. Footfalls was pretty mediocre. Opponent did spend some removal getting rid of the 4/4s. One ate a force of will, and then I lutri'd it, who also ate a fow. The card disadvantage was real but I still lost that game to repeated Uro + Oko and a sylvan library to boot. I did get an awkward hand with Sanctuary tonight, but it worked out in the end. My opponent ended up casting abundant growth on his own sanctuary after leading with it g2. I got to waste it and it felt AMAZING.
This Jeskai Lutri list 5-0'd. I don't want to spoil the surprise, but he packed the deck with miracles, including Temporal Mastery, and is running 2 sanctuaries. After I give the strictly worse UR version a try this Friday I'll probably give Jeskai a try for a couple weeks. The odd part about this 5-0 list is that there is no Dack or Royal Scions or Charm to ditch miracles that get stranded in hand. I feel like I might consider running Narset Transcendent over Teferi but who knows. 5cmc is a lot for a walker in legacy. Narset of the Ancient way would be funny to do with one of the miracles, she doesn't really seem that strong though.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2020-05-23#fgc_-
Tobitzki
01-23-2021, 06:36 AM
Hey Lutrians, my "Otterbox" entry was the runner-up in the "Negator77" brewing contest put up by Brian Coval aka BoshnRoll last week. He recorded a pretty fun league with it here, enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlUZ2y6PFBg&t=358s
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