B.L.A.S.T. (GB Lantern)

[Mr. Safety]

Bridge
Lantern
Ashiok
STirrings

This idea came from theoretical discussion over in the Pox thread about developing a hybrid of Lantern Control from Modern combined with Legacy Pox. The fundamental weakness of Pox has always been opponent's top-decks, which can't be dealt with at sorcery speed. A couple of new cards have really provided some interesting interactions that could possibly merge Lantern with Pox.

Ensnaring Bridge is a powerful magic card to build around, provided there is enough support amongst the rest of the deck to keep it on the battlefield. This means right from the start, this deck doesn't really want to win with combat. Another friend tagging along from Pox is Cursed Scroll, something that is a slow win condition but doesn't need combat. Bitterblossom can provide chump blockers and allow evasive attacks on our own turn, before playing out our top-decked card.

Ashiok, Dream Render has become an addition to recent Pox-like control decks that offers a lot of value to this deck. It prevents opponents from using fetchlands and it prevents library tutoring of any kind including Intuition, Infernal Tutor, Wishclaw Talisman, Enlightened Tutor, Imperial Recruiter, Recruiter of the Guard, Crop Rotation, Knight of the Reliquary, Elvish Reclaimer, Goblin Matron, and many others. Ashiok's ability is also very useful as another milling tool to utilize alongside Lantern to prevent valuable top-decks from opponents. Lastly, and certainly not least, is Ashiok's ability to exile graveyards after activation. This provides supplementary value in game one against Dredge, Gurmag Angler, Reanimator strategies, and Snapcaster Mage. This deck is almost as much an Ashiok deck as it is an Ensnaring Bridge deck, its so valuable as a lynchpin.

Cursed Scroll has become the de-facto win condition that can operate under Ensnaring Bridge. It can deal with problematic small creatures, but more often it's just a simple 2 damage a turn to the opponent to close games out. It is slow, similar to Pox speed where it the idea came from, but not so slow as to cause problems. Recently I've moved up to 3 copies so it will be naturally drawn or nabbed with Stirrings more often. I found many times Wishclaw Talisman was fetching the Scroll, which seemed silly, so I just cut out the middle man and added more copies.

Ancient Stirrings has tons of legacy potential, but is overshadowed by the blue cantrips. In this deck it digs deeper than any of the 1-mana blue cantrips and finds exactly what we always want: Ensnaring Bridge, Lantern of Insight, mill-rocks, Cursed Scroll, and lands. It has seen some play in Post decks, but this deck really benefits from it's dig power. So far it has given the deck a high level of consistency.

Traditional elements in black and green are also included, not only for supporting the overall plan but also doing the best job in these particular colors. Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay great disruptive pieces that will help round out the deck. Sylvan Library is just pure value, especially when Ensnaring Bridge is holding opponent's up from winning the game. Your life total is then easier to use as a source of extra cards.

Utility lands are part of the mix currently as just one copy of Castle Locthwain. As I test further there may be opportunities to try other lands in that slot such as Maze of Ith, Karakas, Mishra's Factory, and Ghost QuarterGhost Quarter. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is a non-budget addition that could help boost some matchups, if available.

A short note about Mox Opal: it doesn't allow extra mana on turn 1, and sometimes doesn't become active even on turn 2. It's enticing to try it in a deck with so many artifacts, but ironically there just aren't enough artifacts that fit the strategy to enable it. Dark Ritual allows for fast Ashioks and Bridges, two of the most important cards in the deck. Dark Ritual also serves as a mana boost even in the late game by helping to activate Codex Shredder's Regrowth ability. This synergy also negates the need for a blue splash to enable Academy Ruins. Wrapping up the Mox Opal thread is the fact that the game goes so long that hitting land drops isn't an issue. I'd rather just have enough lands to reliably make the deck work. Dark Ritual gets the nod for allowing for combinations of t1 plays that are much more akin to the power level of legacy.

This is budget-friendly and still powerful. My background has always been budget-oriented, trying to do the most with the least. I am excited to have another deck available that starts from a foundation of Turbo Depths. Most of the cards in here are affordable, making it a small jump to take your Verdant Catacombs, Bayous, and Thoughtsiezes and port them over to the other side of the combat coin. Rather than attacking once with a 20/20 you're preventing almost all attacks with a 3-mana artifact. Rather than winning in just a few turns you are looking to go into the late game. That's a consideration for this deck: running out of time. So far I haven't seen any big issues, as long as I keep things moving. Once your hand is empty (happens pretty fast) it becomes all about managing the battlefield and top of the deck. It shouldn't take more time than poring over card plays in hand. Keep your opponent honest in paper matches so they don't eat up the clock during a match. :wink:

So here's the list, and it's feeling pretty good!

Updated: 7/9/2020 (updated with Collective Brutality/Maelstrom Pulse maindeck)


Artifacts - 18
4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
4x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Ghoulcaller’s Bell
2x Pithing Needle
2x Cursed Scroll

Dig/Fast Mana - 10
4x Ancient Stirrings
2x Sylvan Library
4x Dark Ritual

Disruption - 9
4x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Planeswalkers/Utility - 5
3x Ashiok, Dream Render
2x Surgical Extraction

Lands - 18
3x Wasteland
1x buried ruin
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
1x polluted delta
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Swamp
2x Forest

Sideboard
2x Veil of Summer
2x Bitterblossom
2x Choke
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x OPEN (need to address Burn and Storm)


Suggestions and discussion welcome!

[PirateKing]

Trinket Mage tutors for 1/3 of your deck. Less cute than Wishclaw, but seems cleaner.
Also then you could play blue, for blue cards :p

[FTW]

Needs more Ensnaring Bridge and Chains of Mephistopheles.

Karn, the Great Creator also tutors half your deck, allowing you to be more efficient in the main at the expense of SB space.

Jank cards like Avarice Totem should be at most a 1-of in the main, which you can then tutor with effects like Wishclaw or Trinket Mage, while using Tel-Jilad to recycle them.

[Mr. Safety]

Good thoughts! Karn is in the short list of testing cards, and Bridge will likely be included at a minimum as a 1-of.

Trinket Mage? Pff. Artificer's Intuition

[FTW]

Artificer's Intuition looks good, but sets you behind in cards, so you might want some card draw to balance it out.

I'm serious about Chains in the SB. The easiest way to get around a Lantern lock is drawing multiple cards in a turn (Modern has much worse cantrips than Legacy). Chains punishes card draw.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, there goes the budget, lol. Chains would be perfect, but I don't think I will invest. If I find a sweet deal, I will nab it.

[FTW]

Yeah, don't bother buying paper Chains if you don't already own it. That card costs way more than its worth for play value.

In Black you might as well play Leyline of the Void main so your milling doesn't help advance their gameplan. That also allows 1 Helm of Obedience in the SB as a Karn target.

Blue also has some good options for the artifact plan..


//Lands: 18
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Seat of the Synod
9 Snow-Covered Island

//Artifacts: 22
4 Mox Opal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Avarice Totem
1 Tel-Jilad Stylus
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Ensnaring Bridge

//Creatures: 10
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3 Trinket Mage
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer

//Planeswalkers: 6
3 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Spells: 3
3 Force of Will

//Enchantments: 1
1 Artificer's Intuition

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Pithing Needle
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Force of Will
2 Back to Basics
2 Propaganda
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Defense Grid


Jace's fateseal might actually be the best Codex Shredder effect in Legacy

Emry likes artifact-heavy decks. It allows recursion with your lock pieces. It also lets you cast cards you milled with Ghoulcaller's Bell!

This might also need Narset to shutdown card draw, at which point you could play the LED-Echo lock too.
Maybe -3 Trinket, -3 FoW, -1 Elixir, -2 other cards, + 3 LED + 3 Echo of Eons +3 Narset, Parter of Veils

[Fox]

Once you’re into this shell, I don’t think your deck can really afford to pass up LED and Echo (and Narset). The power of un-mulligan easy button is far too good to pass up. Problem is to make room you just put convoluted combo pieces in the SB and Karn wish for them (but at that point opponent is already dead to single cards).

[FTW]

Yeah, that's the problem. Once you're relying on Karn Wishing for 2 cards, one of those cards might as well be Lattice.

I think you can still squeeze in room for maindeck Lantern and Ghoulcaller. They have good synergy with turning on Opal and Emry (e.g. T1 Tomb. 2 1-mana artifacts. Opal. Emry) and they're easy to deploy off a draw 7. Meanwhile Narset digs into pieces and shuts off cantrips (opponent's best outs to Lantern lock). Lantern Mill has synergy with Echo (without LED). Lantern lock also has good synergy with "Mind Twist, then draw 7".


//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
8 Snow-Covered Island

//Artifacts: 22
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
2 Defense Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge

//Planeswalkers: 10
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
3 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Creatures: 6
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
2 Urza, Lord High Artificer

//Spells: 4
4 Echo of Eons

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Pithing Needle
1 Defense Grid
1 Damping Sphere
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will


Might have to cut more of the top end of the curve to squeeze in Petals.

[Mr. Safety]

I appreciate the thoughts, the blue lists are pretty cool. I am ashamed to admit that 12 cards in both of those lists can be cut for 4x Chalice of the Void, leaving 8 more slots to do other things.

I do feel that Force of Will does a ton of work for a strategy that is looking to establish a lock, I just don't think I can afford to go into 2 colors. I've been stewing on this deck for a little while and I think the Pox elements need to be increased. I've got a line to more Bridges (in paper) and I think playing an Ensnaring Bridge + Pox + Lantern strategy could be fun, and potentially good.

I am taking in all the good advice, especially the singletons/tutor advice. For now, I want to stick to black. The notes on how to brew this into a blue-based deck will still be here to re-read if the Smallpox strategy goes belly-up.

[FTW]

In a black Pox shell, what about Liliana of the Veil? You can accelerate it out with Dark Ritual. It does all the things Pox wants (discard cards, edict effects) and it helps turn on your Bridges if cards are stuck in hand.

[Mr. Safety]

Good thought, I may want to do that. I'm also considering Bloodghast + Cabal Therapy, which can be potent (and I don't care if I mill either of them over with Ghoulcaller's Bell.)

[Mr. Safety]

I traded into a set of Bridges, so I think the green splash will be the best route. I think Ancient Stirrings and Sylvan Library add a lot to the deck. Abrupt Decay covers a lot of ground along with Bridge. I'll put together something soon and post it up. The Totem/Stylus combo may or not make it through...it seems fun, but the legacy metagame doesn't really lend itself to Control Magic effects.

[Zbynda]

Oko,Thief of crowns could be a tech, not a secret one, but after exchange, you can turn avarice totem or wishclaw talisman into ELK without abilities

[Mr. Safety]

Cool idea! Not sure I want to go 3 colors, but I'll keep it in mind.

[Sella]

I traded into a set of Bridges, so I think the green splash will be the best route. I think Ancient Stirrings and Sylvan Library add a lot to the deck. Abrupt Decay covers a lot of ground along with Bridge. I'll put together something soon and post it up. The Totem/Stylus combo may or not make it through...it seems fun, but the legacy metagame doesn't really lend itself to Control Magic effects.

I'm on board with the green splash, stirrings just does way too much for this sort of deck.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm on board with the green splash, stirrings just does way too much for this sort of deck.

I tend to agree. Abrupt Decay solves a lot of problems, Stirrings digs 5 deep (which is better than Ponder), and green offers additional ways to fight the metagame.

The issue I have then is that I can't fit everything in that I want to, lol. I don't know whether to drop Talisman/Ashiok and just rely on Stirrings, go mono-black with Talisman/Ashiok and just do a toolbox rather than Stirrings/Library, or maybe both is the right answer. I tend to think both is the right answer, but it leaves little room for everything the deck needs.

Here's my rough list I've been tinkering with:

4x Lantern of Insight
4x Codex Shredder
2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
3x Mox Opal
4x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Cursed Scroll
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tel-Jilad Stylus
1x Avarice Totem
3x Wishclaw Talisman

4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
2x Bitterblossom
3x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Dark Ritual

4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
1x Bayou
2x Blooming Marsh
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Vault of Whispers
4x Wasteland

Sideboard ideas:
Crucible of Worlds
Surgical Extraction
Plague Engineer
Maelstrom Pulse
Golgari Charm
Liliana, the Last Hope
Darkblast
Toxic Deluge
Hymn to Tourach
Dark Confidant
Nihil Spellbomb
Cabal Therapy
Liliana's Triumph
Dismember

[Sella]

I tend to agree. Abrupt Decay solves a lot of problems, Stirrings digs 5 deep (which is better than Ponder), and green offers additional ways to fight the metagame.

The issue I have then is that I can't fit everything in that I want to, lol. I don't know whether to drop Talisman/Ashiok and just rely on Stirrings, go mono-black with Talisman/Ashiok and just do a toolbox rather than Stirrings/Library, or maybe both is the right answer. I tend to think both is the right answer, but it leaves little room for everything the deck needs.

Yeah, I had the same issue when I was building more pox-focused versions - there was a lot of stuff that worked really well in the deck and not enough space for all of it.

List looks like a good starting point. Talisman/Ashiok still seem good enough to test, but I don't know if I'd cut green and go all-in on them, honestly it'd still be worth the green splash just for stirrings since it helps increase the consistency of seeing Talisman if nothing else.

Surgicals and Plague Engineer both are probably auto-includes for the side, I'd also throw in some extra pithings. Spellbomb and Crucible also look good.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I had the same issue when I was building more pox-focused versions - there was a lot of stuff that worked really well in the deck and not enough space for all of it.

List looks like a good starting point. Talisman/Ashiok still seem good enough to test, but I don't know if I'd cut green and go all-in on them, honestly it'd still be worth the green splash just for stirrings since it helps increase the consistency of seeing Talisman if nothing else.

Surgicals and Plague Engineer both are probably auto-includes for the side, I'd also throw in some extra pithings. Spellbomb and Crucible also look good.

Stirrings can't grab Wishclaw Talisman, only colorless cards. It's really for Bridge/lantern/opal/lands.

I also grabbed a couple Spire of Industry to help with the mana base if I need it.

[Sella]

Stirrings can't grab Wishclaw Talisman, only colorless cards. It's really for Bridge/lantern/opal/lands.

I also grabbed a couple Spire of Industry to help with the mana base if I need it.

Ah right, my bad. I neglected to RTFC (didn't look closely enough at that mana cost)

If you do run Stirrings you might be able to drop Bridge to 3 or something if you end up really pressed for space. Running extra copies of Lantern is always good anyways, the biggest problem I had when I was testing lantern builds was just not seeing lantern.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, I think it's pretty important to see lantern, and bridge, so that's why I think Stirrings, Library, and Wishclaw are key. Stirrings with only 18 lands is also pretty stable; delver decks get away with few lands due to cantrips, so the logic tracks.

Honestly, I am excited to see what Ashiok can do in this deck. Ashiok speeds up the mill win condition by a lot and makes up for only having 6 mill-rocks in the deck. The lock with Bridge means Ashiok will most likely live to do their job. Talisman being one-sided seems good, and seems like the best toolbox enabler for this particular strategy.

I'm putting this together in paper today, amped to try it out soon.

[Mr. Safety]

Initial results are promising! Wishclaw is very good at finding necessary lock pieces, and if I get to Wasteland my opponent once ot twice I can keep them off the mana to cast their outs to Bridge. Ashiok, as expected, worked amazing. I am reminded as well that if my opponent uses Wishclaw I get it back. They may be able to tutor for something, but I still get to do it twice.

The card that has dissapointed me so far is Mox Opal. I think I'm going to cut it for a full set of Dark Ritual, which leaves me with an open slot. Not sure what that slot will be, most likely another discard spell. It's very powerful to get a turn 1 Ashiok, or just play multiple spells. Lotus Petal is another option, but I think Ritual is the best of the fast mana options. Opal just doesn't reliably get me t1-2 Ashiok or Bridge.

The other option is to cut the Rituals for more artifacts, which would turn on Opal easier. Welding Jar comes to mind.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I guess with Opal you could consider moving Nihil Spellbomb to the main and Surgical Extraction to the side? To me Spellbomb seems like the better maindeck card (findable by Ancient Stirrings, cycles when you don’t need it), but I could maybe see the occasional turn-0 interaction that Surgical provides being more important. You’ve probably already thought about this.

[Mr. Safety]

I guess with Opal you could consider moving Nihil Spellbomb to the main and Surgical Extraction to the side? To me Spellbomb seems like the better maindeck card (findable by Ancient Stirrings, cycles when you don’t need it), but I could maybe see the occasional turn-0 interaction that Surgical provides being more important. You’ve probably already thought about this.

Good thoughts! I think that Ancient Stirrings is powerful enough to also enable those cards out of the sideboard. I am keeping a keen eye out for colorless cards (artifacts and lands) that can be suitable sideboard cards that make the deck more consistent.

Surgical fills a couple of different roles in this deck, and its not as clear-cut as 'free graveyard hate'. It also allows me to target opponent's cards that are outs to Bridge. Once I extract the outs, Bridge wins the game. Cards like Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Disenchant, and Council's Judgement can all be dealt with by Surgical. Exiling cards in their graveyard is also a duty that Ashiok does very well. Ashiok is the real all-star in this deck, for sure.

To anyone else interested: the primer has been updated! Pretty amped to see what this deck can do.

[Mr. Safety]

Next testing phase, once I get 30+ games in with the primer list, is to go back to Mox Opal and reconfigure the artifact count. I think the key to making Opal work will be adding in Mishra's Bauble. It will be hard to squeeze it in, but I think it's possible. Doing the below will be a net-gain of 5 artifacts, without the addition of artifact lands (which don't seem worth the risk, honestly.) If the artifact lands were fetchable I would 100% play them, but otherwise they make the mana-base unstable. It seems intuitive to just cram in some number of Vault of Whispers, but it throws the initial mana-source count off. I want at least 13 initial black sources while also having 13 initial green sources. Opal can help, but I want it bulletproof. Even at 13 I'm nervous, it really should be 14 of each.

-4 Dark Ritual
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 Noxious Revival
-1 Wishclaw Talisman


+3 Mox Opal
+4 Mishra's Bauble

[BirdsOfParadise]

Ancient Stirrings and Mox Opal really reward cheap artifacts. You’ve already got the best ones, but Meekstone could exist in the sometimes-sideboard, depending on what matchups are hard. In a matchup where it’s good, you can jam it on turn 1 with no regrets (unlike, sometimes, Needle, where there can be tension between turning on metalcraft and waiting for more information — not that Needle isn’t still great).

Grafdigger’s Cage similarly doesn’t constrain you at all. In its good matchups, you can also jam it on turn 1 for metalcraft or dig for it with Stirrings. It could be in the sometimes-sideboard.

(Admittedly, grave hate and stopping big creatures are probably not where you’re hurting, given the key cards of your deck, but sometimes you get more mileage out of a synergistic sideboard card that helps a medium matchup a lot than out of a nonsynergistic sideboard card that helps a bad matchup less.)

[Mr. Safety]

Good thoughts. I think I might actually mainboard a Cage, regardless of which mana-booster I use.

Meek stone is a good call, it can be Bridge #5. Once again, if it's good I'll jam it regardless of Opal presence or not.

[Sella]

Updated list looks spicy.

I agree with Safety on Surgical, being able to snipe opponent's wincons or answers makes it a stronger overall option in the main than other forms of grave hate.

I guess Opal just doesn't feel as impactful as Dark Rit when it's not coming online t1, and I'm not sure if adding more artifacts (although there are plenty of good candidates) just to make Metalcraft more consistent is worth it when we can just run Rit instead. Deck space is a big issue when there's so much we want to run, so we have to be very selective.

[Mr. Safety]

Updated list looks spicy.

I agree with Safety on Surgical, being able to snipe opponent's wincons or answers makes it a stronger overall option in the main than other forms of grave hate.

I guess Opal just doesn't feel as impactful as Dark Rit when it's not coming online t1, and I'm not sure if adding more artifacts (although there are plenty of good candidates) just to make Metalcraft more consistent is worth it when we can just run Rit instead. Deck space is a big issue when there's so much we want to run, so we have to be very selective.

I completely agree! I want t1 Ashioks and Bridges, Opal doesn't do that.

Meekstone was good, I think it's worth a maindeck slot. However, I find Talisman is not great. I think what I really want is another Library and 2 more utility slots. Those could easily become Surgical Extractions, Collective Brutality, or even maindeck Hymn. Surgical seems like the best of the bunch.

Winning via mill takes a long time, even with Ashiok. Winning with mill against Yorion decks? Functionally impossible. I need ideas for alternative win conditions in the sideboard. Bitterblossom is good, but I don't think it's enough.

[Sella]

I completely agree! I want t1 Ashioks and Bridges, Opal doesn't do that.

Meekstone was good, I think it's worth a maindeck slot. However, I find Talisman is not great. I think what I really want is another Library and 2 more utility slots. Those could easily become Surgical Extractions, Collective Brutality, or even maindeck Hymn. Surgical seems like the best of the bunch.

Winning via mill takes a long time, even with Ashiok. Winning with mill against Yorion decks? Functionally impossible. I need ideas for alternative win conditions in the sideboard. Bitterblossom is good, but I don't think it's enough.

Winning with mill also makes the deck functionally impossible to play on mtgo due to time constraints.

Honestly not sure what we could use as an alternative wincon. There's some cute tech (Helix Pinnacle would be funny) but it all takes just as long to win. Its a shame we don't have access to any cute 2-card combos like rip helm. I guess we could splash blue for a labman effect and self-mill against Yorion?

[BirdsOfParadise]

Re:wincons, I wanted to suggest being a painter/stone deck (grindstone teaming up with the enemy-topdeck-erasing cards), but the problem is that Ancient Stirrings is a brick when painter is in play.

Unrelated edit: In a non-budget version, you could find some place for Tabernacle. As with all my other suggestions, Ancient Stirrings multiplies the number of virtual copies by 5 if you include it as a singleton (main or SB), and it complements bridge and meekstone — those artifacts punish opponents for going tall, whereas Tabernacle punishes them for going wide. You could try proxying it just to see what, if anything, it does for the deck. It’s at cross-purposes with Bitterblossom, so you’d have to weigh that and see if you could think up a new wincon.

Edit2: I guess I’ll toss Bojuka Bog into the thread since it’s yet another silver bullet that Ancient Stirrings can find, and unlike many decks that run it, this deck is actually black. Hey, if you follow all my suggestions, you’ll have a free win against every graveyard deck ever! :-)

[Mr. Safety]

Non-budget would include Chains of Mephistopheles first I think, but Tabernacle would be good as well.

Debating more janky tech, possibly Underworld Dreams or Black Vise against Yorion decks. They draw a ton of cards. Vise is going to be dead in quite a few matchups, but against Yorion/4c decks they will almost always be taking damage, especially once the Lantern/mill-rock lock is established.

[Sella]

Re:wincons, I wanted to suggest being a painter/stone deck (grindstone teaming up with the enemy-topdeck-erasing cards), but the problem is that Ancient Stirrings is a brick when painter is in play.


I think that Painter/Stone might be worth looking at regardless. The mill does have some synergy and I think its the closest thing we'll find to a win button that we can feasibly run.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Here’s a stupid idea:
Cram in a Nihil Spellbomb or two (low deckbuilding cost)
Replace two Blossoming Marsh with two Nurturing Peatland
Replace one Bitterblossom with one Reanimate (some deckbuilding cost, but with Thoughtseize and Codex Shredders and Ghoulcaller’s Bell, Reanimate will sometimes be amazing)
Find room for 1x Thassa’s Oracle (Yes it’s a brick, but you can often self-mill it if you were going to draw it)
Find room for 1x Doomsday

This is an “I win” button for the midgame. It’s not that fast and your main game plan needs to be rolling along already, but if it is:
(A) Cast Doomsday (BBB)
(B) Crack a Spellbomb or a Peatland to draw Reanimate (BBBB or 2BBB)
(C) Use an Ashiok to mill yourself, putting Thassa’s Oracle in the bin — or, if possible, mill yourself three times with three Codex/Bell cards;
(D) Cast Reanimate, win (BBBBB or 2BBBB)

This isn’t a great combo, but your whole deck is designed to kind of paralyze the opponent and always know what’s in their hand, so the idea is that if it’s a game you were pretty much supposed to win, you now have a five-mana “I win” button. Note that conditions don’t have to be perfect: Say you don’t have a Spellbomb or a peatland, but you know that your opponent’s next draw can’t block the combo. Then you can just Doomsday and win next turn instead of right now.

There are quite possibly other, more streamlined, ways to turn Doomsday into a win. This is the best I could devise.

Edit: Wishclaw can either find Doomsday or be the “draw a card” effect after you cast Doomsday. This deck has a lot of unique features that mitigate the fact that the combo is kind of horrible on the face of it. Another unique feature: Sylvan Library helps you avoid drawing Oracle.

Edit: there might be some way to meld this with painter+stone, possibly only postboard if you want to avoid casting Reanimate and thus foul up grave hate.


EDIT: Or splash Oko, make everything into Elk, and Elk your own bridges when it’s time to win. Or leave the bridges and let your hand size float up to three during your own combat steps.

EDIT: Or don’t splash, and cut one bridge and add one Karn TGC. PWs are good at winning through bridge.

[Mr. Safety]

Lots of cool discussion!

Painter-Stone sounds pretty cool, actually. It opens up some other options as far as disruption goes. There is a small risk of turning off Ancient Stirrings, so it may not be preferable. I'd have to try it.

The doomsday plan is pretty cool, not sure if it's worth the slots. It appears compact, but currently I only have 3 win conditions. I don't think it would be better to cut those grindy cards (scroll/bitterblossom) and give up percentage points. Its flashy, but I don't really need flashy. I may have to just accept the slow nature of the deck and rely on Wishclaw/Library/Stirrings finding me a Scroll or stack up the millrocks.

I think what I need to do is establish something in the sideboard x3-4 that can replace Bridge in matchups where it isn't ideal.

EDIT: Lodestone Golem comes to mind as a decent threat against non-creature combo decks, and has some added value against mid-range/control decks.

EDIT#2: Cards to test:

Wall of Blossoms
Veil of Summer
Grindstone
Painter's Servant
Lodestone Golem

[BirdsOfParadise]

For when you board out Bridge? Assuming you’re on Opals, what about tweaking the manabase and boarding in The Antiquities War? It finds mill rocks / silver bullets and then hits like a ton of bricks. I don’t think they’ll see it coming.

[Mr. Safety]

That is definitely an option! I was also thinking if I get Opals back in I can afford a blue splash. Oko is numero Uno to test, but Antiquities War sounds intriguing. I am thinking Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas could be really good as well.

I think Tezzeret is slightly better, because it not only helps find Bridge but the ultimate will win games fast outside of combat (which also supports Bridge.)

So, if going blue for Tezzeret (and Oko), this is where I would end up:

-4 Dark Ritual
-2 Bitterblossom

+3 Mox Opal
+1 Lotus Petal
+1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
+1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
+2-4 Artifact lands


Alternatively I could just sneak in Tezzeret as a 1-of and utilize Opals/Lotus Petal instead of Dark Ritual and include a Zagoth Triome. It's about the best fetchable land, even if it enters tapped, for a light blue splash.

[BirdsOfParadise]

That makes sense. Either Oko or Tezz could add a strong proactive plan while also being able to play defense or grind. (Oko is a bit better at playing defense and Tezz is a bit better at grinding in a way that supports Plan A of the deck.)

Maybe the budget precludes this, but if I were building the deck and had no limitations I’d definitely have a Tabernacle somewhere. It’s such a good singleton against many decks when you’re creatureless and also have Ancient Stirrings/Talisman to help find it. In that case, I’d lean toward win conditions that worked with Tabernacle, and Tezz fits that description.

Another, unrelated, thought is that you’re not using the graveyard at all. My observation is that it’s really powerful to be able to use the graveyard as a resource without being reliant on it (and thus vulnerable to hate). For example, Delver and Snoko have great angles of attack that use the graveyard (Arcanist/delve cards and Uro/Snapcaster), but they don’t just lose to grave hate and instead they’ll win with other things if an opponent overcommits to grave hate. I wonder if there’s some way to get mileage out of the graveyard in this deck, whether it’s with Loam (wastelock / recur fetches to reset top of deck / dredge to reset top of deck / fill hand with milled lands) or Emry or something else.

Random cards maybe worth considering:
Spellskite
Infernal Tutor
Scheming Symmetry
Kaheera, the Orphanguard

Edit: This is probably quite useless, but I find it funny that with Lantern in play and a low-curve deck, you could cast Ad Nauseam for 10–15 cards and always know exactly when you should stop. If only there were any payoff...

Edit: I’ve also been trying to think about what sets this apart from Modern Lantern, and I’m not sure what does, but maybe that line of thought can lead to good card ideas.

[Mr. Safety]

These are the reasons it's good in Legacy:

Wasteland helps lock up games
Sylvan Library is insane
Dark Ritual + Ashiok t1 shuts off fetchlands
Abrupt Decay is better in legacy than modern, easily a card that tips matchups like Delver and Chalice decks.

This may be a total flop, but so far it's very promising. Tabernacle seems good, maybe I can try Maze of Ith for now, as getting tabernacle isn't realistic.

The issue I see with adding blue is it's just a super slippery slope, one where the end result is probably a different deck entirely. I can't help but be an advocate for non-blue decks, it's in my blood.

Edit: I could easily sideboard 4x Dark Depths/Stage. Stirrings finds those as well, and I could have a Crop Rotation package. Because I have grave hate maindeck I can easily transform into a Depths combo deck. Stirrings and Library aren't perfect at getting Depths/Stage, but I can also board Crop Rotation. That's 11-12 cards, a few silver bullets like Karakas, and it could be interesting. I guess the last few slots in the board would be Choke, maybe Hymn to Tourach. It would solve the Burn matchup, lol.

[Sella]

Edit: I could easily sideboard 4x Dark Depths/Stage. Stirrings finds those as well, and I could have a Crop Rotation package. Because I have grave hate maindeck I can easily transform into a Depths combo deck. Stirrings and Library aren't perfect at getting Depths/Stage, but I can also board Crop Rotation. That's 11-12 cards, a few silver bullets like Karakas, and it could be interesting. I guess the last few slots in the board would be Choke, maybe Hymn to Tourach. It would solve the Burn matchup, lol.

Somehow I completely forgot about this, which is sort of ironic since I was actually considering adding Depths/Stage to my lantern list. The issues I had with that was that it was hard to incorporate the package without turning the deck into turbo (or midrange I guess) depths with weird cards and the obvious conflict with Bridge. Siding it in makes a lot more sense though, grinding out g1 and then switching to a combo plan seems fun.

[Mr. Safety]

It solves some problems, and nobody would suspect you of cutting bridge for Depths, its utter lunacy, lol. The real question becomes: does it solve fundamental problems? If it does, it's worth it.

I may just play Crop Rotation + utility lands anyways, depths or not, in the board. Lands are another colorless avenue that makes Stirrings better.

[Sella]

It solves some problems, and nobody would suspect you of cutting bridge for Depths, its utter lunacy, lol. The real question becomes: does it solve fundamental problems? If it does, it's worth it
it.

I may just play Crop Rotation + utility lands anyways, depths or not, in the board. Lands are another colorless avenue that makes Stirrings better.

We definitely should run some utility lands even without crop rotation (although crop rotation could be a fine include). Wasteland isn't that good this meta anyways so we can maybe(?) expect the see less of it (the usual D&T crowd is probably going to continue running headfirst at Snowko anyways, but ah well).

I think it does solve the fundamental problem of being a win button. It also seems like it slots in the best with our shell. That being said, I do still think that painter/stone and maybe even some sort of self-mill are still avenues worth exploring, even if they don't look quite as promising (although I think painter-stone at least is definitely worth some testing).

[Mr. Safety]

If you test painter/stone, just keep an eye on sequencing. Painter makes all cards, even lands, colored. Stirrings will be a brick after Painter is on the battlefield.

[Sella]

Yeah, I definitely don't think I'd play it until I'm confident that I have the win.

[Mr. Safety]

So I think this is what I would do for a transformational setup:


4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Crop Rotation
1x Sejiri Steppe
3x Vampire Hexmage


Out: -4 Bridge, -4 Wasteland, -2 Bitterblossom, -1 Meekstone, -1 Cursed Scroll, -2 Ghoulcaller's Bell, -1
In: +4 Depths, +4 Stage, +3 Rotation, +1 Steppe, +4 Hexmage

That's a full swap of the 15. Depending on matchup, the Hymns could stay in the sideboard and I could keep in some number of Wasteland/Bitterblossom. I think against the 4C control matchups I would do the full swap. Against Yorion Miracles I would keep in the Bitterblossoms and instead cut some number of Dark Rituals. With this setup I would want to incorporate at least 2 copies of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth maindeck to enable the combo easier. I am favoring Stage at 4 copies, HExmage at 3 because Stirrings finds the lands but not the creature. I think Wishclaw Talisman is a pretty safe tutor in this instance, especially if players aren't expecting Depths. They will likely have sideboarded out/not sideboarded in any outs to Marit Lage. I'm kind of excited for this, it can be a way to combat matchups where Bridge isn't ideal but a fast combo would be. I'm not really losing any functional effects, I'm just losing the option to change the control package slightly to accommodate the matchup.

Lands would be: -1 Swamp, -1 Forest, +2 Urborg. I don't know if I would cut a Wasteland or not, seeing as how Pithing Needle will name Wasteland fairly often. Karakas out of D&T comes to mind, but there is no way I'm cutting Bridge in that matchup. The overall setup is way too good against their deck, Bridge stopping attacks and Ashiok preventing Recruiter shenanigans. Decay and Scroll do a ton of work against problematic cards also.

This comes to mind:
https://media1.tenor.com/images/3b9474b4dd06abf219a493e3ce40a02a/tenor.gif?itemid=3465196

[BirdsOfParadise]

Here’s another (probably bad) idea: run Lingering Souls (you’d cut Bitterblossom, for starters). One Karakas likely belongs in the deck anyway, and if you run Opals, that’s some extra sources of white; a single white dual would round out your white sources. But Plan A isn’t to cast Lingering Souls from your hand. Plan A is to mill it with Ghoulcaller’s Bell or Codex Shredder and cast it from the graveyard at your leisure. If you see it on top with Lantern or Sylvan, just mill it and keep going through your deck for control/prison cards. That way, you never actually spend a card on your win condition. Plan B is to cast both the front half and the back half, and that’s not a terrible for a Plan B.

[Mr. Safety]

Here’s another (probably bad) idea: run Lingering Souls (you’d cut Bitterblossom, for starters). One Karakas likely belongs in the deck anyway, and if you run Opals, that’s some extra sources of white; a single white dual would round out your white sources. But Plan A isn’t to cast Lingering Souls from your hand. Plan A is to mill it with Ghoulcaller’s Bell or Codex Shredder and cast it from the graveyard at your leisure. If you see it on top with Lantern or Sylvan, just mill it and keep going through your deck for control/prison cards. That way, you never actually spend a card on your win condition. Plan B is to cast both the front half and the back half, and that’s not a terrible for a Plan B.

That seems pretty reasonable to me. Lingering Souls are a lot less life-total dependant than Bitterblossom, I really like that. I have gotten to the point in games where Bitterblossom wasn't fast enough to win games. Stabilizing at a low life total is pretty common with this deck. Lingering Souls does solve quite a bit of that conundrum, but I'm still at the impasse with Mox Opal. There just isn't enough low-risk artifacts to feed the deck. Once I start adding stuff like Mishra's Bauble (necessary for Opals I think) there is just too much air and not enough business. I could go through all those hoops and still wouldn't be able to do t1 Ashiok, which is by far one of the most powerful avenues of the deck. Cutting Opal was one of the most freeing parts of developing this deck: it opened up non-artifact avenues of supporting Lantern/Bridge.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Sure, that makes sense. I hadn’t realized that you’d settled on Dark Ritual over Mox Opal. Still, the duals+fetches configuration ought to be flexible enough for a white card you don’t need to cast in the first couple of turns. One could also try the WBG triome. Of course, that means only that one could include Lingering Souls, not that it would be optimal to do so.

If you splash white, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper could possibly do a lot in this deck. She can do grave hate, life gain, and removal all on her own, and she’s great friends with Bridge and Ashiok. She’s a wincon that can help in a tight spot as well as in a good spot. It’s possible that her abilities are too narrow, though, or that she’s too fragile for the cost.

[Mr. Safety]

Not sure I want a 3rd color. I actually nabbed a couple more Cursed Scrolls, thinking about dropping the Talismans altogether and just run 3 scrolls. I want higher value finds from Ancient Stirrings. The other place to cut is Bitterblossom, but that card is so good in most matchups.

[mistercakes]

havne't had a chance to really take a look at this thread before. looks like a really nice iteration of the lantern decks.

is tabernacle an option in this deck? (not that i own one, but in your testing would it have helped in some matchups?)

will be interesting to see what this deck gets from newer cards.

[Mr. Safety]

Tabernacle seems good, but I also don't own one. I don't see getting one, either. I may be able to borrow one if a tournament ever happens locally again.

Not sure there are any new cards in core21 for this deck, but I'm definitely keeping an eye out for tech.

[Mr. Safety]

Potential inclusion, but it fights for space with Bitterblossom. Having some lifegain is cool, but I don't see any other shrines as being playable in this deck. Likely won't make the cut as Cursed Scroll is a faster clock.


https://www.mtgnexus.com/img/cards/m21/58706-sanctum-of-stone-fangs-full.jpg?t=1592231872

[Sella]

Plus Stirrings can't find it. I think Scroll is probably our best md wincon.

Lingering Souls does seem like a nice inclusion if we can find space or decide to splash a third color, splashing W also opens us up to some decent side deck options

I don't think Opals make the cut either, when I was playing a different iteration with Opals + Labe in the main I often found that I had a surplus of mana but not much to do with it.

[mistercakes]

i didn't see veil of summer come up in this thread. what are the thoughts on being used here, to protect from counterspells, but more importantly to protect bridges from cards like abrupt decay.

[Mr. Safety]

I can't believe I forgot about Veil of Summer...very good suggestion! The real questions are whether to run it maindeck, sideboard, and what number to run. It's definitely a card that needs to be included. My gut tells me 3 is probably the right number. I'll fool around with numbers and get it into the primer.

Edit: I updated the primer, put Bitterblossom sideboard and Surgical Extraction maindeck now that I have 3 scrolls to grind out wins. Blossom will be very good, and safer, in control matchups rather than random g1's. Ended up with 2 Veil of Summer in the sideboard, would like to have 3. I'm trying to figure out if I need the Nihil Spellbomb/Grafdiggers cage in the sideboard. With Bridge, Ashiok, and Surgical maindeck I think my Reanimator/Dredge matchup should be fine. It's a little funny that the graveyard matchups are also addressed with Ensnaring Bridge.

[mistercakes]

thoughts on noxious revival? it can return an abrupt decay, bridge, lantern etc and then on top of it you can ensure their top card is worthless. (nevermind this, i saw it earlier in the thread just now.)

my last suggestion is why not try to be a little greedier on the manabase and run 1 or 2 oko? it solves a lot of issues that abrupt decay is also trying to solve and given the amount of artifacts in the deck it creates hastey guys. no need for that stupid snow artifact either.

[Mr. Safety]

thoughts on noxious revival? it can return an abrupt decay, bridge, lantern etc and then on top of it you can ensure their top card is worthless. (nevermind this, i saw it earlier in the thread just now.)

my last suggestion is why not try to be a little greedier on the manabase and run 1 or 2 oko? it solves a lot of issues that abrupt decay is also trying to solve and given the amount of artifacts in the deck it creates hastey guys. no need for that stupid snow artifact either.

I like Oko, a lot actually. The combo of Bridge + Oko is known technology from modern. It pushes me closer to Mox Opal, for obvious reasons, but that is perfectly fine. I would probably just put in a Sultai triome land, fetchable and cyclable if I already cast Oko off Opal. Spire of Industry or even a basic Island would be fine as well. I don't have any blue duals. :frown:

Regarding Noxious Revival: it wasn't worth the slot. The list is tight, and I have to now jam an Oko (maybe).

[Mr. Safety]

Also considering Scroll of Fate + Phyrexian dreadnought in sideboard.

EDIT: Possibly going back to Winter Orb as an option. I'm trying to find enough artifact synergies to make Opal playable to offset the fact that I can't get t1 Ashioks. Opal would still allow me to get Bridge down on turn 2-3, and finding another way to pinch mana (Orb) seems very good alongside Ashiok.

Testing shall commence!

[Mr. Safety]

Orb testing was a bust, it could be a sideboard option but I think Choke is better. Opal re-test was similarly dissapointing, back to Dark Ritual.

I nabbed a couple Veil of Summer, debating maindeck or sideboard. If I play them maindeck I think they have to take Duress's slots.

[Sella]

Yeah, Orb wasn't super great when I used it either. It was really great in theory but ultimately players could just hold up lands since we don't really have a fast enough clock to take advantage of it. I feel like if it is run it has to be run with Port and some sort of mana rock (probably Opal) but even then we're still not really doing anything since we're spending our mana to stop our opponent from doing things.

I think Rit vs Opal really just depends on how many artifacts you're willing to shove in the main, it feels like for your build at least running more artifacts for Opal probably isn't worth it.

Veil for Duress seems like a decent swap, although I guess it depends on your local metagame.

[Mr. Safety]

I think it will end up duress main, Veil side. My local is fairly blue-light.

I have officially switched to Surgical main, Blossom side. Too many games where it showed up too late to matter. It's a grindy matchup kind of card for 4c/miracles, anything that gives me time to leverage my life total.

As far as attacking mana, Wasteland + Ashiok is very good. Ashiok actually makes the mill plan realistic, too. Once it gets rolling its 5-6 cards a turn, each time taking more out of opponents deck that could get them out of the Bridge or Lantern lock.

[Sella]

I wasn't super big on Bitterblossom to begin with tbh but I haven't really had any experience playing with/against the card so I figured I was probably just understating its value lol. I'd assume that it probably isn't super fantastic if it doesn't show up early in the game, taking it out for Surgicals is probably a good call. I think that Lantern decks should always try to find a way to shove Surgicals in main tbh considering how much synergy we have with it

[Mr. Safety]

Agreed. Blossom was, originally, a metagame call to fight the blue-stew dominated scene. It's still very good, in the right matchups.

EDIT: Updated OP list, thinking about Dark Confidant sideboard again.

[Mr. Safety]

I would love suggestions for the Burn and Storm matchups. I have a couple ideas, but none seem fantastic. Do I just let the matchup go or do I try and maneuver into 2-3 slots to address them?

Short list:

Witchbane Orb
Lodestone Golem
Damping Sphere
Mindbreak Trap
Dragon's Claw


I'm leaning towards 2x Witchbane Orb. I have Dark Ritual to power it out and Stirrings to find it.

[Sella]

Witchbane looks like probably the best answer out of those, although Damping Sphere also gets bonus points for coming down t2 without dark rit. Dragon Claw is too narrow, don't think I'd side cards for the burn matchup specifically. Mindbreak could be ok. Not sure about Lodestone, being a 4/4 body is nice but does mean burn can potentially out it with a fireblast or something. Not sure if it being a creature comes up in the storm matchup though

[Mr. Safety]

Witchbane looks like probably the best answer out of those, although Damping Sphere also gets bonus points for coming down t2 without dark rit. Dragon Claw is too narrow, don't think I'd side cards for the burn matchup specifically. Mindbreak could be ok. Not sure about Lodestone, being a 4/4 body is nice but does mean burn can potentially out it with a fireblast or something. Not sure if it being a creature comes up in the storm matchup though

Lodestone is 5/3, and would be better against Storm and terrible against Burn. I think Orb is best. The idea behind Lodestone is that most people will board out creature removal. The real issue is they won't ever board out their Okos.

[Sella]

Lodestone is 5/3, and would be better against Storm and terrible against Burn. I think Orb is best. The idea behind Lodestone is that most people will board out creature removal. The real issue is they won't ever board out their Okos.

In my defense I haven't had my morning coffee yet, haha

Yeah, Oko as always will continue to be an issue. The main problem I see is that we don't have much of a clock and the lantern soft-lock isn't super great against past in flames so they'll eventually find an out if we durdle. I guess Lodestone would be nice for the beats, then again they could just go for a Warrens turn and even if we throw down lantern + they have >5 cards in hand they still have a bunch of chump blockers to stall. Not having the win button really hurts in this matchup.

[Mr. Safety]

I think with maindeck discard into surgical, plus Ashiok exiling graveyards, Storm isn't an atrocious matchup. We're likely still less than 50% against them pre-board, but post board we get Hymn to Tourach, Veil of Summer to stop Tendrils, Maelstrom Pulse for Warrens, and potentially Engineered Explosives/Ratchet Bomb for Warrens. Wasteland helps keep them off lands if we can slow them down with a Thoughtseize/Duress, Abrupt Decay can deal with Chrome Mox/Opal. There are definitely ways to attack what they are doing, but none of them alone are enough to stop them cold.

So Burn is obviously the worst matchup that I've tested so far. Not only can they just burn us out quickly but Bridge being an artifact lets their sideboard hate come online. Hell, Bridge is known technology for Burn sideboards anyways. This matchup was the primary reason for attempting the Depths sideboard; Burn has a hard time racing Turbo Depths. The other option is to try and leverage something like Witchbane Orb, which has utility against other matchups but is again an artifact that turns on Smash to Smithereens/Abrade. Another idea would be to transition into a Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek deck post-board. It doesn't win on the spot, but the lifegain would easily put us out of burn range if allowed to untap. That last line is what makes it sketchy: will they allow you to untap or just unload into a Fireblast and win? Not to mention Sulfuric Vortex is a common strategy for Burn. If I were on Burn, I'd be leaning on Vortex really hard due to Oko.

Another combo to try is Reanimator: sideboard Entomb, Reanimate, and Iona, Shield of Emeria. It couldn't be traditional Reanimator lie with Griselbrand because we could still get burned out. It would have to be Iona to lock Burn out. I can't think of any other reanimate targets that would be worth including, maybe Blightsteel Colossus, Platinum Emperion, or Platinum Angel. I like that Angel is actually hard-castable with Dark Rituals, but I wouldn't rely on that plan too heavily.

So in reality, the options are basically: ignore the matchup and board a couple broad spectrum cards in the sideboard (Orb) or transform into some sort of combo deck in the sideboard to address the Burn matchup along with other problematic matchups.

[Mr. Safety]

This is my theoretical Depths sideboard plan:

4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Crop Rotation
3x Vampire Hexmage
1x Sejiri Steppe


Maindeck would have this change:
-2 Blooming Marsh
+2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Sideboard plan:
-3 Wasteland
-1 Buried Ruin
-4 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Cursed Scroll
-3 Ashiok, Dream Render
-2 Ghoulcaller's Bell

EDIT: A sideboard plan of 4x Lotus Petal, 4x Cabal Ritual, 4x Manamorphose, 3x Tendrils of Agony could also be spicy. There isn't any synergy with Ancient Stirrings so it's likely worse than Depths, but it's still seems just crazy enough to get the job done.

[Sella]

Forgot about Ashiok. Yeah, Storm seems winnable.

I still really like the Depths sb plan just because it seems funny, but the biggest question for me is what matchups it helps against other than burn. I just don't feel like Burn is a deck worth dedicating sb slots for, but rather that its always good to pick sb cards for other matchups that also help against burn, and honestly burn being our worst matchup is something I can live with. That is of course assuming your locals isn't over-saturated with Burn (I once went to a tourney at a smaller shop and every local player there was on burn, one of the dudes from our shop was on Lands, he got price of progressed like 20 million times. Not a great day for him haha)

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, that's the other option: ignore burn. I can see an argument for playing maindeck Collective Brutality instead of Duress, which has pretty good value against burn, especially if I can turn dead cards into a 3-fold effect (gain 2, kill a Guide, take a burn spell.) It has pretty good potential against a lot of other decks, too. I think I'll find a way to get CB into the maindeck and then find a couple reasonable options for 2-3 sideboard slots that address burn but have other applications.

Good reasoning, I love your feedback!

[Mr. Safety]

Brutality is good, I definitely like the flexibility.

The most important card in the deck is Bridge, so I need to find a way to either duplicate its effect or play a tutor that gets it. Talisman is too risky without Ashiok, Scheming Symmetry is only good of I have a mill rock, Infernal Tutor needs me to be hellbent, and Dark Petition costs 5 mana. I do like that Petition, if its live, gives me the mana to play Bridge. That's where I will start. Petiton also gets me Lantern, which is the 2nd most important card. It would be nice to have another way to make Dark Ritual relevant in the late game.

The deck is great, and very consistent, but it has a few crucial cards it needs to see every game. Then again, most of my testing has been against Delver, which I expect to be one of the more common decks I face along with Snoko. That could be affecting my perspective

[Sella]

I think you're on to something with Brutality. There were a lot of instances when I was testing my old pox-focused list where I'd find myself casting Thoughtseizes for no reason just so mana dorks couldn't slip under Bridge. Brutality is a good card by itself anyways and doubling as a discard outlet is icing on the cake.

The importance of Lantern/Bridge really comes down to the matchup. I don't care much about seeing Lantern right away vs. a deck like Show and Tell since if you land a bridge that's pretty much game anyways (at least in g1). Same deal with reanimator, just gotta slam t1 dark rit + bridge and hold a Surgical for Tidespout Tyrant.

If we aren't seeing our pieces consistently enough and have to add more searchers petition could be decent. If we do go with petition I feel like we have to prioritize mulling for lantern over bridge since seeing bridge later is usually fine while in most fair matchups we pretty much always want to have lantern + mill rock down t2. Getting mana back does mitigate the cost once we actually cast it, being able to petition into bridge is pretty nice, but the main thing I'd watch for in testing is how often the mana cost comes up - not coming down until t3-5 could be a bit problematic with some hands (although it could come down earlier if we open something silly like double dark rit). Plus using dark rit to cast it means that's mana we're not spending for something like t1 Ashiok. So I guess that leads me back to my prior conclusion that it's pretty much a bridge searcher, which might not be too big a deal since bridge coming down t5 is probably fast enough most matchups.

How's Delver testing been? I'd imagine that we have a decent matchup into them as long as we see Lantern and mill rocks since we can manipulate their topdeck to stop delver from flipping until we find a bridge or Ashiok to sweeten the deal, but playing against Delver isn't always as simple as I wish it was haha. Same with Snowko, I had real trouble the last time I played that matchup, but I feel like my old list was just badly tuned for it since my mana denial (which my list was heavily leaning on) just didn't do as much as I hoped against it (same deal with that uw yorion deck that draws 20 million cards). Another matchup I'm really curious/worried about is D&T. They have a lot of tools maindeck and even more in the sideboard. I feel like if they stick a t1 vial and we don't have the Pithing Needle on hand for it that's probably a loss in and of itself.

[Mr. Safety]

I have found that the Delver matchup is decent, but they can still just tempo us out of the game with a t1 Delver backed up by Daze/Force. It's one of the biggest reasons I ended up adding the 2nd Library, we need a critical mass of must-answer threats against them. If we stumble at all it gives them a window to cast cantrips and race before we can land bridge.

Death and Taxes doesn't seem too difficult, honestly. They have no answers to Bridge in the maindeck, we have Dark Ritual to power through Thalia, and then they are locked out with Bridge. Their mana-disruption is a little annoying, but we have Pithing Needle and Wasteland for Ports and enough basic lands to work around their Wastelands. The only real problem is Flickerwisp phasing out Bridge for a few turns to attack. However, their clock isn't incredibly fast so it won't happen in one turn, unless it's super late game. If it's that late in the game Lantern-lock should keep them off Flickerwisp. Ashiok also prevents their Stoneforge and Recruiter toolboxes, so we actually have some decent tools for that matchup. Sideboard they bring in Disenchant or Council's Judgment, which is still not that worrisome considering their lack of cantrips. I haven't tested this matchup yet, but I'm not really that worried about it. Pithing Needle on Vial is definitely one avenue to slow them down, but it's not as good as just playing out our hand into a Bridge. I don't see how they beat Bridge g1 without Flickerwisp.

The great part about this deck is that you really only need to worry about a few specific interactions. A ton of information flows through the turns, but only some of it really matters. Once you land Bridge you just need to keep them from removing it, which makes the Lantern plan so powerful. It snowballs into an unwinnable position for opponents so you just need to find a way to win (mill or Scroll.) I've been mentally drafting a matchup write-up, which lays out the specific cards you need to deal with.

I'm really looking for this ideal situation

T1 - Thoughtseize, Lantern, Stirrings
T2- Dark Ritual into Bridge/Ashiok, Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Collective Brutality, Lantern + Millrock
T3- Bridge, Maelstrom Pulse, Ashiok
T4+ = play out my cards, find a Scroll or enough mill-rocks/Ashiok to finish them off

[Mr. Safety]

Regarding Dark Petition: it makes mid-late game Dark Rituals better while also being pretty good early if enabled with Rituals. I think it's the most feasible and will be my next test. Wishclaw was ok, just dangerous without Ashiok.

[Sella]

Fair point about Taxes, I guess I'm just biased because I'm used to somehow losing to them even when I really shouldn't lol. I'll be looking forwards to a possible matchup write-up, I haven't really had much time to test so most of my matchup knowledge is just theory

[Mr. Safety]

Fair point about Taxes, I guess I'm just biased because I'm used to somehow losing to them even when I really shouldn't lol. I'll be looking forwards to a possible matchup write-up, I haven't really had much time to test so most of my matchup knowledge is just theory

Mine is just goldfishing, lol, so mostly theoretical as well. It can always be updated once I get some real testing in.

[Alexeezay]

I played your list through a MTGO league because I used to play Lantern in Modern a lot and wanted to give it a try.

Unfortunately, the 'Lantern engine' Lantern+Mill rocks was not able to control either 1) density of cantrips in blue decks 2) tutor effects/library manipulation from Goblins and Food Chain 3) Oko and Teferi that both deal with Bridge or the Lantern lock very easily, backed up by countermagic or blink effects. Yes you have discard, Needles and Ashiok, but it never seemed enough because there's a bunch of mill rocks that don't help there.

I'd imagine that other typical decks such as Delver (aggro + counters/Oko) or Maverick (tutors and hate) would be just as hard.

Although I won the round vs SneakShow due to the high amount of good cards vs that deck, I lost all my other matches (Goblins, Snowko, Lands, Food Chain) and it wasn't really close.

I wish the Lantern shell could compete in Legacy, but I wouldn't hold my hopes up.

[Mr. Safety]

Yuck!

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it. Without any real experience the list was 100% theoretical. If Bridge can't get the job done, the deck is dead. I think the main reason it was so good in Modern is because Bridge was fundamentally a lock against so many decks. In the newer era of Oko and Teferi, it seems riskier. I could play a full set of Pithing Needle, which would help offset some of your matchups. I don't think that would be enough though, if it's that bad.

What do you think about re-tooling into a blue-deck like the earlier posts of the thread? Maybe even something with Urza.

[FTW]

Unfortunately, the 'Lantern engine' Lantern+Mill rocks was not able to control either 1) density of cantrips in blue decks 2) tutor effects/library manipulation from Goblins and Food Chain 3) Oko and Teferi that both deal with Bridge or the Lantern lock very easily, backed up by countermagic or blink effects. Yes you have discard, Needles and Ashiok, but it never seemed enough because there's a bunch of mill rocks that don't help there.


That was always my skepticism of Lantern Control making it in Legacy, and it looks like your testing validated that.

Legacy just has better cantrips and tutors to break the lock, so even when you have everything assembled the potential ceiling is lower than what it can do in Modern. Then there's also FoW, Daze, Chalice and Oko to just break the combo. Modern is a creature-heavier format that basically can't beat Ensnaring Bridge as long as you can stop them from drawing some specific cards.

I wonder if it would work better in a blue shell with Teferi, Time Raveler to lock the opponent out of instant-speed interactions and/or Narset, Parter of Veils to stop card draw.

Lantern-Echo


//Artifacts: 20
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
2 Ghoulcaller's Bell

//Planeswalkers: 8
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Creatures: 7
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer

//Spells: 8
4 Force of Will
4 Echo of Eons

//Lands: 17
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
8 Snow-Covered Island

//Karnboard: 6
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Walking Ballista


Emry has natural synergy with the mill rocks as a source of recursion and card advantage. Echo also has synergy with mill rocks.

Both Bridge and any other janky artifact tools (Needle, extra mill rocks) get better when you can hide them in the SB with Karn.

Maybe splash white for Teferi, Time Raveler and Auriok Salvagers, or green for Oko, Thief of Crowns and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (and Arcum's Astrolabe).

Edit: Oops, already suggested something like this on the 1st page and you don't want to play blue.

[Mr. Safety]

That was always my skepticism of Lantern Control making it in Legacy, and it looks like your testing validated that.

I agree, his testing results, as small as they are, really question the validity of a non-blue/non-Chalice prison deck.


Legacy just has better cantrips and tutors to break the lock, so even when you have everything assembled the potential ceiling is lower than what it can do in Modern. Then there's also FoW, Daze, Chalice and Oko to just break the combo. Modern is a creature-heavier format that basically can't beat Ensnaring Bridge as long as you can stop them from drawing some specific cards.

You're reinforcing where my testing has led me: is Bridge good enough to be a legacy playable build-around? If not, the deck is unplayable. Lantern lock is really to prevent opponent's from answering Bridge.


I wonder if it would work better in a blue shell with Teferi, Time Raveler to lock the opponent out of instant-speed interactions and/or Narset, Parter of Veils to stop card draw.

Lantern-Echo


//Artifacts: 20
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
2 Ghoulcaller's Bell

//Planeswalkers: 8
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Creatures: 7
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer

//Spells: 8
4 Force of Will
4 Echo of Eons

//Lands: 17
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
8 Snow-Covered Island

//Karnboard: 6
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Walking Ballista


Emry has natural synergy with the mill rocks as a source of recursion and card advantage. Echo also has synergy with mill rocks.

I like all of that except Echo/LED. I think once you establish that combination of cards its better to just win, such as with a combo deck of some sort.




Edit: Oops, already suggested something like this on the 1st page and you don't want to play blue.

No problem, I opened up the conversation for blue again with my above post. It's a valuable re-hash.

I really like Emry, that seems like a decent starting point if this is going to work. The Antiquities War, Jace TMS, and Narset POV all add quite a bit of power to the deck as well. I'm not sure about the interaction of War with Bridge; if it allows it to turn off Bridge for a turn while I swing for a bunch, that would be awesome. If Bridge is still active when the 3rd part of War resolves then it's a bust.

[FTW]

You're reinforcing where my testing has led me: is Bridge good enough to be a legacy playable build-around? If not, the deck is unplayable. Lantern lock is really to prevent opponent's from answering Bridge.


I would say no for Bridge, but yes to Karn, the Great Creator (which can also find Bridge if it needs to, or just get Lattice).

Karn is powerful enough in Legacy to be a build-around. If you can use Lantern lock and other tools to prevent them from answering Karn, Karn will quickly take over the game.

Emry and Narset can help you get there.

If you don't play FoW, you probably want Defense Grid to shut off blue.

If you stay in green (or UG), you have access to Oko and Ancient Stirrings (which gets Karn).

[Mr. Safety]

I would 100% play Force of Will, and likely Force of Negation x1-2 as well. I think if I want to pursue this, Karn is really the avenue along with Emry. Mono-blue is enticing, if only for the simplicity of the mana-base (which allows me to cheat something like Ancient Tomb in there for acceleration.) I can always play Brainstorm/Ponder in place of Stirrings.

Green does offer Oko, which might be necessary. With Narset and Jace in there alongside Karn the space is getting pretty thin, but I suppose Jace isn't an auto-include.

Rough list:
4x Lantern
4x Codex Shredder
3x Ghoulcaller's Bell
3x Mox Opal
4x Lotus Petal
5x OPEN (these should be artifacts to support Opal)
4x Emry
4x Karn
2x Narset
1x Jace TMS
2x Antiquities War
4x FoW
2x FoNegation

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Seat of the Synod
1x Academy Ruins
9x Island

(Same Karn-board)

I don't have LED's, and I'm a paper-only player (currently) so I don't really want to explore that direction.

[Lemon]

If you're going into blue Artificer's Intuition might be something worth looking at.

[FTW]

Artificer's Intuition synergizes with Emry and also reshuffles your top card. Seems very strong.

You don't need LED anyway if you're not on the Echo plan.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I wouldn’t give up on your build after a single bad league. Magic has a lot of variance.

[Sella]

What do you think about re-tooling into a blue-deck like the earlier posts of the thread? Maybe even something with Urza.



Edit: Oops, already suggested something like this on the 1st page and you don't want to play blue.

Hehe

Anyways, I do think that Oko is a big problem for the deck, especially since he's so prevalent in the format. Moving Needle to 4 could help against that (plus it has some sort of utility in almost every matchup anyways, so it won't necessarily be a dead card). I feel like blue matchups are probably only good when we see the early Ashiok.

The blue direction does seem interesting, I really like Emry. A few thoughts:

- For Safety's list, the 5x open to support Opal should probably include some needles. It might also be worth keeping some bridges in the main as a 1-2of.
- Really like the inclusion of Karn, having a win button with Lattice is nice. Narset also seems strong.

That being said, I still think the previous avenue is worth exploring (or maybe I just really like the idea of the depths sideboard lol). I agree with Birds that it isn't worth giving up after a single league. I'd definitely up the number of needles though and maybe the number of direct removal for oko (so maybe add in more Decays?) since we need a decent amount of removal for planeswalkers in general since thats the main avenue of attack we can't prevent with Bridge.

Alternatively, Wizards could just ban Oko :) Not saying that Oko is the only problem card for us or anything, but it is an easy answer and I imagine its prevalence probably makes a lot of matchups harder than they should be lol

[Mr. Safety]

I won't scrap it just yet, but having another avenue to discuss keeps me from getting bored, lol.

I'm playing 3 Decay, 2 Needle right now for answers to Oko. I would also prioritize Oko with Thoughtseize. If I sideboard Depths, Hexmage is a pw sniper as well. It might be worth boarding Hexmage just for Oko, Depths or not.

[FTW]

Due to the low blue count, I think the deck cannot support 6 Forces main. Maybe 4 main and 1 more SB?

Artificer's Intuition would help allow maindeck 1-ofs like Pithing Needle. Soul-Guide Lantern and Engineered Explosives could be other appealing targets. Other options might be Tormod's Crypt, Aether Spellbomb, or Arcum's Astrolabe. You could even go deep with anti-creature tech like Meekstone.



//Artifacts: 22
4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
3 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Pithing Needle
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Engineered Explosives

//Spells: 4
4 Force of Will

//Creatures: 6
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
2 Urza, Lord High Artificer

//Planeswalkers: 6
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Enchantments: 4
2 Artificer's Intuition
2 Antiquities War

//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
9 Snow-Covered Island


Blue cards: 16
Artifacts: 26 + more ways to dig into them

I still like Urza for giving you another win condition/engine and something to do with all those artifacts.

Throne of Geth could be interesting in the Karnboard. It proliferates planeswalkers, EE and AntWar. It can save artifacts from exile or Elking (to protect recursion engines).

[Sella]

Urza seems worth testing, wincons are definitely the main thing lantern decks need

I sort of wonder if it might be worth upping the Narset count to 3 or so, seems like a pivotal card vs. blue (and cantrips are our worst matchup).

[FTW]

More Narsets seems good

With Bridge moved to the SB, both AntWar and Urza become powerful wincons. Maindeck Bridge is probably what limited wincons before.

[Sella]

More Narsets seems good

With Bridge moved to the SB, both AntWar and Urza become powerful wincons. Maindeck Bridge is probably what limited wincons before.

That's true, although I don't think we'd find wincons like AntWar and Urza in B/G regardless lol. Although I will admit I did heavily consider the idea of some sort of slow-roll control depths at some point, until I realized I was just brewing a worse version of every other depths deck.

I think the issue with a lot of the wincons I tried/considered before (depths, painter stone, etc). is that they all sort of turned the deck into worse versions of the respective deck(s) they're actually good in. In the end we had to go with stuff like Cursed Scroll since the closest thing we could borrow from without sacrificing too much of the Lantern strategy was Pox. Urza and AntWar both slot in pretty easily without needing to think about it much

[Mr. Safety]

I think the Depths plan makes the most sense, simply because of the incredible amount of overlap with Ancient Stirrings. It finds all of the combo pieces and incorporating a green instant (Crop Rotation) into the mix is easy. Hexmage even addresses Oko and other PW's.