Banhammer swings like Babe Ruth, hits everything

[morgan_coke]

Standard: Teferi, Reclamation, Growth Spiral, and Cauldron Familiar

Pioneer: Inverter of Truth, Kethis, Ballista, and Breach

Historic: Reclamation and Teferi

Brawl: Teferi

Nothing for Legacy.

Most interesting thing is they said they made several changes because the enviroment wasn't "fun" and players were playing less - specifically regarding killing all the combo decks in Pioneer. Maybe changes for Legacy later if they decide they want more participation?

[MaximumC]

Wizards can do what they want, of course, and I'm happy that they're printing powerful new cards. Printing without being scared and then using the banhammer to manage formats instead of just printing timidly in the first place is absolutely the right move. That said, I'm disappointed in the Pioneer bans because it really seems to plant a flag on Pioneer as being hostile to combo generally. The ban is not really justified by a lack of format diversity - there are four decks all apparently doing well and competing with one another, not a single dominant strategy - but instead designed to reduce interaction.

Note their justification:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/august-8-2020-banned-and-restricted-announcement

This should open up the field for more traditional midrange and control decks and put less pressure on aggressive decks to also focus on hand disruption and counterspells.

In other words:

Timmy does not want to have to interact with his opponent outside of the combat step, so we killed all the combo decks.

That makes me sad because it means that, like Modern, Pioneer is just not going to grow into a format that an old Legacy/Vintage player would enjoy on Arena.

[Michael Keller]

Wizards can do what they want, of course, and I'm happy that they're printing powerful new cards. Printing without being scared and then using the banhammer to manage formats instead of just printing timidly in the first place is absolutely the right move.

Is it, though? If the format becomes stale and unfair with these cards that just turn players off prior to a theoretical future ban, is it worth the satisfaction of these printings in the short term against the long-term effects of losing a Legacy player base - specifically as it pertains to LGSs?

[Mr. Safety]

Is it, though? If the format becomes stale and unfair with these cards that just turn players off prior to a theoretical future ban, is it worth the satisfaction of these printings in the short term against the long-term effects of losing a Legacy player base - specifically as it pertains to LGSs?

I think you're asking the right questions. I would be completely fine, along with a healthy number of Legacy players, with no breakthrough cards for legacy for the next year or more. Let us go back to a cyclical metagame where metagame brewing and savvy sideboarding are the ways to make progress rather than just jamming in the newest broken shit.

[JackaBo]

I hope they tone down the power level of future printings. Even though it may have been correct to ban all those cards, this much bannings can not be seen as anything else than a failure.

[Ronald Deuce]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand called it. On multiple platforms, within about six seconds of seeing their December announcement.

Lots of interesting discussion here, even if I don't agree with certain people's views.

MaximumC, I'm totally with you about the need for better cards and sets generally. (I could go on and on because this is so multifaceted, but I won't.) That said, I want to hear more about your opinion that this (i.e., printing more permissively and banning more judiciously) is a better course than the one we'd been on before. I've always been of the impression that bans were generally dangerous for consumer confidence (lol) and for establishing clarity, so do you see evidence that this is producing a better play environment in Legacy and elsewhere?

Full disclosure: I have no interest in Standard or Pioneer. So maybe I lack the context and experience to say what I'm about to say, but what's wrong with letting combo out-compete other archetypes once in a while? Nobody likes losing, but why is it qualitatively worse to lose to combo than to anything else? I might be in the minority here, but I've found most combo decks to be a lot less abrasive than decks that force you into long-game grinds that are already foregone.

I've also noticed that combo thrives where there's no good value strategy. Maybe that's a problem Wizards should focus on instead of banning everything under the Sun.

[phonics]

WOTCs new FIRE development philosophy which started with War of the Spark may have contributed to this. They have also been a lot looser in their design, 2020 isnt even over and there have been more bannings in the 4 major constructed formats ever in a calendar year I think.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSmZnZUQIWoG5889KBT_PBdQVe5iXOwz0GGXd2as32LWFMDiZLHX_cTTVcYGw6fG4g1np8gqeCQl2Q6/pubchart?oid=1455241495&format=image

[morgan_coke]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand called it. On multiple platforms, within about six seconds of seeing their December announcement.

Lots of interesting discussion here, even if I don't agree with certain people's views.

MaximumC, I'm totally with you about the need for better cards and sets generally. (I could go on and on because this is so multifaceted, but I won't.) That said, I want to hear more about your opinion that this (i.e., printing more permissively and banning more judiciously) is a better course than the one we'd been on before. I've always been of the impression that bans were generally dangerous for consumer confidence (lol) and for establishing clarity, so do you see evidence that this is producing a better play environment in Legacy and elsewhere?

Full disclosure: I have no interest in Standard or Pioneer. So maybe I lack the context and experience to say what I'm about to say, but what's wrong with letting combo out-compete other archetypes once in a while? Nobody likes losing, but why is it qualitatively worse to lose to combo than to anything else? I might be in the minority here, but I've found most combo decks to be a lot less abrasive than decks that force you into long-game grinds that are already foregone.

I've also noticed that combo thrives where there's no good value strategy. Maybe that's a problem Wizards should focus on instead of banning everything under the Sun.

The problem with combo is that you have to interact on the stack or hand to beat it, and those two things are restricted to blue and black, respectively. So if combo is dominant, 3/5ths of the colors don't matter. Personally I think they should go back to permanent combination combo like Ali from Cairo/Spectral Cloak or something, or just let every color interact with the stack, but as long as they don't, if you're not a blue or black player, and really, it's mostly just blue/tempo, then it feels terrible because you're playing magic and the other person is playing solitaire. But their solitaire beats your magic.

[Wrath of Pie]

The funny part is that the various attempts to make creature removal actually be combo interaction is still mostly a failure. (Modern Storm is probably what they want combo to look like, because the cost reducers are vulnerable to creature removal and more importantly the strategy is basically all-in, unlike the various combo and combo-control strategies in Pioneer.)

[Maximus]

Maybe this is a shitter take but I have the opposite stance of MaximumC. I get that sometimes they make mistakes, even really bad ones like Mental Misstep and Treasure Cruise. But..... eh. 2019 power creep being a larger, formal design decision was just too much for me. Of course, I don't buy new product anyway because I think their new philosophy sucks, so it's not like my opinion matters.


Is it, though?

You have no idea who I am but I've been a fan of yours for a long, long time.

edit: I missed Mr. Safety's post. Nailed it better than I could have ever articulated.

[Fox]

I will always struggle to understand how a 4 mana do-nothing enchantment, that you need to play 4x (and kinda gets worse with every redundant copy drawn, but mostly makes deck unplayable if you don’t draw it), will ever need to be banned. Maybe there’s just too many instant speed effects for such a low-power format?

[Zoid]

Since I only play Arena now, I can't comment on Pioneer.

The rest is absolutely warranted. Most of these cards should have never seen print.
Historic was basically either ramp with (Field of the Dead or Reclamation or both + a diverse cast of fatties) or various control decks that made you feel like Piper Perri surrounded by Teferis.

One of the biggest and recurring issues is that they undercost/overstat threats which is why ramp into whatever has been so prevalent.
M21 also brought back Cultivate so I guess it's not going to stop.
They can't ban 10 cards like krasis, Ugin, Nissa, ... because there are already 15 more available.
The other issue is that they make cards/strategies to hard to interact with (Cat, Reclamation, Teferi).

It's really ironic that the new "playtest team" was hailed as salvation for standard.
Either they are not doing there jobs or they are deliberately ignored which begs the question why to have them in the first place.
While you can't catch everything or every interaction with obscure cards in eternal, a lot of cards that have been band in the last years should have never seen print.
Cards like 3feri, which invalidate a whole card type and most meaningful ways of interacting with it ,or Fires, which is the latest attempt in a long line of almost exclusively broken free spell mechanics, should have been caught.

Either they want to kill paper magic off and only have arena or they want to make everything commander since it generates the most cash because at this point I'm not buying it anymore that all these are just simple "mistakes".

[Barook]

I'm not buying it anymore that all these are just simple "mistakes".
Don't assume malignance if it can also be explained with stupidity - and WotC has plenty of that.

Their current cardinal design sins are making cards hard to interact with (e.g. Field of the Dead) and stuffing too much shit into too little mana cost (e.g. W&6, Oko, Uro, etc).

Personally, I'm not really a fan of the repeated format disruptions, especially if cards like Astrolabe and Oko overstay their welcome with no end in sight.

[Fox]

EDIT by H: The post in question was deleted, so the response is now edited out.

As much as people want to moan and groan about 2019/2020 cards, the format has few truly problematic fundamental issues. Oko (and Wrenn) are just Counterbalance and Hymn and Grixis Delver's Probe/Therapy by another name; it's the same "how is this crap legal" fraction. Before this it was Goyf. The format has always been ruined by this unbroken chain, but Oko is at least not stackable [legend supertype], making him the least unpleasant.

Beyond this there are tiny blips made by Misstep, TCC/DTT, Breach, and Lurrus. Pretty much anything else you don't like is best explained by: this is what happens when you ban DRS.

What is interesting is that total hand destruction was so clearly and unacceptably overpowered for so long, but both Wrenn and then Oko invalidated that cheese [Veil helped ofc] almost overnight. Both cards are bullcrap, but it was still progress. The best move is still unban DRS ban Hymn, unban Top ban Counterbalance, and then ban Oko.

[non-inflammable]

As much as people want to moan and groan about 2019/2020 cards, the format has few truly problematic fundamental issues. Oko (and Wrenn) are just Counterbalance and Hymn and Grixis Delver's Probe/Therapy by another name; it's the same "how is this crap legal" fraction. Before this it was Goyf. The format has always been ruined by this unbroken chain, but Oko is at least not stackable [legend supertype], making him the lesst unpleasant.

Beyond this there are tiny blips made by Misstep, TCC/DTT, Breach, and Lurrus. Pretty much anything else you don't like is best explained by: this is what happens when you ban DRS.

What is interesting is that total hand destruction was so clearly and unacceptably overpowered for so long, but both Wrenn and then Oko invalidated that cheese [Veil helped ofc] almost overnight. Both cards are bullcrap, but it was still progress. The best move is still unban DRS ban Hymn, unban Top ban Counterbalance, and then ban Oko.

ban brainstorm and all those unbans would be legit...

[Maximus]

Don't assume malignance if it can also be explained with stupidity - and WotC has plenty of that.

See that's the thing, I'm not sure either. Kind of agree with Zoid.

Not to say that it's exactly the same, but when I was a developer of a competitive game we had situations like this come up too. Some of the mistakes were legitimate, but some were clearly specific members of development trying to sneak something in for personal reasons. I can't help but feel the same here, and I think some cards like Oko or DTT are probably accidents. And then yeah it's probably just innocent stupidity, mistakes happen, etc. Speaking from experience, development like this is just really messy sometimes.

But then you see shit like MMisstep, W6, or DRS having 2 toughness. I don't know man, I just don't buy it.

-----

As an aside, I know I'm in the minority on this one but- I kinda wish they would just ban Oko, Astrolabe, and the entire planeswalker card type. I definitely feel like "old man yells at cloud" but I super hate the planeswalker card type since they just keep power creeping the shit out of them and it always seems like some significant percentage of the player base agrees.

/rant

[Fox]

ban brainstorm and all those unbans would be legit...

Eh, I mean the real problem is Fetchlands when it comes to DRS, delve, Bstorm, etc. You have to accept a level of annoyance as long as they're legal on the back of the refusal to reprint duals.

[jmlima]

...

Full disclosure: I have no interest in Standard or Pioneer. So maybe I lack the context and experience to say what I'm about to say, but what's wrong with letting combo out-compete other archetypes once in a while? Nobody likes losing, but why is it qualitatively worse to lose to combo than to anything else? I might be in the minority here, but I've found most combo decks to be a lot less abrasive than decks that force you into long-game grinds that are already foregone.

....

I only play Arena, and at that mostly Historic with a bit of Standard. I think I can see where they are coming from. To start with, some of these cards created (especially in Historic) board states in which one player had the game won, but the game would still last for a long , long time, because those decks just take ages to win. Meanwhile, the opposite player quite often was still thinking he had even a chance of win. After a long game, they would lose. They would then start another game and this would repeat because reclamation decks are (were) so ubiquitous. This was highly disappointing for some players. The problem in arena is that you have a crap-load of casual players. They are looking for a bit of quick fun, where they throw creatures at each other for a while and someone wins. Not to face a deck that is seemingly doing nothing and then just wins (like combo decks) or a deck that slowly grinds the life out of everything before winning.

That's why I don't think any lessons can be learnt re legacy bannings from what's happening in arena. They are completely different environments with totally different player expectations. The 'fun' factor weights very heavily in arena, way more than in any format that is not supported in Arena. As an aside, Historic is coming to Arena, so they are making their best not to bring into Arena another format dominated by combo decks, by killing them before the format fully enters Arena.

[H]

I'm going to head this off right now, we are not going to be discussing the social implications of accidental qualities of Magic cards. Discuss the cards themselves as they relate to the game and to remind everyone, racial, political or social issues are not for discussion here.

[MaximumC]

MaximumC, I'm totally with you about the need for better cards and sets generally. (I could go on and on because this is so multifaceted, but I won't.) That said, I want to hear more about your opinion that this (i.e., printing more permissively and banning more judiciously) is a better course than the one we'd been on before. I've always been of the impression that bans were generally dangerous for consumer confidence (lol) and for establishing clarity, so do you see evidence that this is producing a better play environment in Legacy and elsewhere?


Oh, happy to share my personal perspective and my attempted objective perspective.

I play Vintage, Legacy, Cube, and casual 60, and I love finding interesting interactions and synergies between cards. I am the happiest when I see WotC experiment with unique effects and complicated cards. I love finding obscure interactions, I love finding new homes for quirky old cards, and I love unintended consequences. Personally, then, I want WotC to feel free to experiment without being super careful to make effects safe and make people only play the specific play patterns they intended. If this means cards have to be banned in Standard now and then, fine.

Putting on a more objective hat, I think printing powerful cards is good for other reasons, too. Reason number one is the Reserve List Policy. People love whining about this (it's not ever going away) but they really miss the forest for the trees. There's nothing inherently wrong with refusing to reprint cards as such. Most cards on the RL don't raise an eyebrow because they're terrible cards. No one cares about Farmstead. What people do get uptight about are cards that are the best at what they do AND happen to be on the List, like the original dual lands. Well, you know what eliminates the need for RL reprints? More powerful new cards that fill the same niche. The more powerful new cards we get, the more the value of the cards on the RL are eroded. If you are a RL whiner, stop it, and encourage WotC to keep printing the list into the historical dust bin.




Maybe this is a shitter take but I have the opposite stance of MaximumC. I get that sometimes they make mistakes, even really bad ones like Mental Misstep and Treasure Cruise. But..... eh. 2019 power creep being a larger, formal design decision was just too much for me. Of course, I don't buy new product anyway because I think their new philosophy sucks, so it's not like my opinion matters.

You have no idea who I am but I've been a fan of yours for a long, long time.

edit: I missed Mr. Safety's post. Nailed it better than I could have ever articulated.


Yeah, we just disagree on that I guess. I like picking through the chaos for fun new brews and I don't mind them having to ban things if they screw up. I dislike Homelands, Masques, Kamaigawa, and original Theros for the overly safe and generally underpowered designs. (Yes, naturally there are exceptions: they are exceptions.) I've been happy as a clam since Kaladesh.


The problem with combo is that you have to interact on the stack or hand to beat it, and those two things are restricted to blue and black, respectively. So if combo is dominant, 3/5ths of the colors don't matter. Personally I think they should go back to permanent combination combo like Ali from Cairo/Spectral Cloak or something, or just let every color interact with the stack, but as long as they don't, if you're not a blue or black player, and really, it's mostly just blue/tempo, then it feels terrible because you're playing magic and the other person is playing solitaire. But their solitaire beats your magic.

I can dig this, but it's more a question of the format than combo as such. I think it's important for each combo to have answers available in other colors, though I'm fine with not every combo having an answer in every color. There's an element of rock-paper-sissors to combo that should be preserved. That's easier in eternal formats with larger card pools. Taking a look at the most recent bans:

Helios + Balistia = Blue countermagic, Black discard or creature removal, White creature/enchantment removal, Green artifact/enchantment removal, red.... whoops!
Inverter + Oracle = Blue countermagic, Black discard, White, Green, and Red.... eh?
Breach + Anything = Blue countermagic, Black discard or yard hate, White Green and Red... too bad!

You could imagine fixes to these holes. Red having the ability to punish lifegain in playable cards would help Helios combo. White, Green, and Red having more stifle-like effects could help Inverter. All colors just need yard hate or sphere effects against Breach. But, we don't live in that world in Pioneer, I get that. The bans seem OK.

[Lord Seth]

WOTCs new FIRE development philosophy which started with War of the Spark may have contributed to this. They have also been a lot looser in their design, 2020 isnt even over and there have been more bannings in the 4 major constructed formats ever in a calendar year I think.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSmZnZUQIWoG5889KBT_PBdQVe5iXOwz0GGXd2as32LWFMDiZLHX_cTTVcYGw6fG4g1np8gqeCQl2Q6/pubchart?oid=1455241495&format=image
That picture is really useful for putting things into perspective, but I disagree with the claim that we can blame anything that started with War of the Spark. War of the Spark was released in 2019, and we can see that the notable increase in bans started in 2017. It is true that 2019/2020 had more than 2017/2018, but at that point it's a matter of degrees.

At this point, I feel these constant bannings are just the new normal, especially in Standard. In 2017 you could've written it off as them just majorly goofing up in set design temporarily, and 2018 as them still working on fixing the problems that were present since 2017. Happened in Urza's Saga and Mirrodin where they just majorly goofed up, but after the bans were finished things went back to normal afterwards. But it continuing in 2019 and 2020? We're in the situation I've repeatedly heard Yu-Gi-Oh is in, where bannings are a constant fact of life. I suppose the difference is that in Yu-Gi-Oh players know that's the case, but in Magic we're still continually thinking again our better judgment "maybe Wizards of the Coast finally fixed things this time, and we won't have bannings this frequent in the future."

The Pokemon TCG seems to be the only one of the big three now that doesn't seem to be constantly suffering from bannings in their main format... well, maybe. I looked it up and it seems they literally last week announced two cards were going to be banned in their Standard format... but it's also the first Standard bannings in 5 years, so this could just be a case like Jace and Stoneforge where they went years without a ban, banned a few cards in one go, then the ban-less status quo resumed. We'll see.

The craziest thing about these bans, though, is how much of it is Simic. It's one thing to look at Oko and mistakenly think "this card is okay." It's another thing to think that Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Growth Spiral, and Uro all in the same format is somehow acceptable.

[phonics]

That picture is really useful for putting things into perspective, but I disagree with the claim that we can blame anything that started with War of the Spark. War of the Spark was released in 2019, and we can see that the notable increase in bans started in 2017. It is true that 2019/2020 had more than 2017/2018, but at that point it's a matter of degrees.

At this point, I feel these constant bannings are just the new normal, especially in Standard. In 2017 you could've written it off as them just majorly goofing up in set design temporarily, and 2018 as them still working on fixing the problems that were present since 2017. Happened in Urza's Saga and Mirrodin where they just majorly goofed up, but after the bans were finished things went back to normal afterwards. But it continuing in 2019 and 2020? We're in the situation I've repeatedly heard Yu-Gi-Oh is in, where bannings are a constant fact of life. I suppose the difference is that in Yu-Gi-Oh players know that's the case, but in Magic we're still continually thinking again our better judgment "maybe Wizards of the Coast finally fixed things this time, and we won't have bannings this frequent in the future."

The Pokemon TCG seems to be the only one of the big three now that doesn't seem to be constantly suffering from bannings in their main format... well, maybe. I looked it up and it seems they literally last week announced two cards were going to be banned in their Standard format... but it's also the first Standard bannings in 5 years, so this could just be a case like Jace and Stoneforge where they went years without a ban, banned a few cards in one go, then the ban-less status quo resumed. We'll see.

The craziest thing about these bans, though, is how much of it is Simic. It's one thing to look at Oko and mistakenly think "this card is okay." It's another thing to think that Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Growth Spiral, and Uro all in the same format is somehow acceptable.

I didnt mean to imply that it was only because of the new philosophy, only that it might be contributing to it, specifically the anomaly of 2020. There is a general increasing trend, but it looks like previously they created pushed sets/ cards at certain intervals (maybe for meta considerations), as every other year appears to have similar trends before the 2020 uptick. Considering the ~2 year development cycle of sets, it may be a little while longer of similar design choices before any reaction to the recent sets is seen in the game.

I think the reason simic is getting banned is for some reason it is the 'new blue' in that I assume the major design challenge over the past decade was how to make other colors better. They initially tried just printing better cards, but blue card selection/draw always made it better for them to splash the better cards then just playing those other colors most of the time. So they started to give things that make blue good to other colors (mainly green), like card selection/ advantage, Uro, UOAT, Veil, Growth Spiral, basically all do this, even stuff from earlier like stirrings and oath of nissa as well. Simultaneously the things other colors get are either too strong in the relevant formats (lurrus, wrenn, fires of invention, some combo cards) or are very strong and also played in combo like strategies (all the graveyard and artifact stuff that was banned in modern, breach, field of the dead etc) which are next up on the 'this stops me from attacking with creatures, i hate this play style' chopping block, after counters and land destruction got neutered years ago. Just look at the greatest hits this development team has brought since Kaladesh, they can claim they only develop for standard to disregard everything that has happened to the eternal formats, but when standard is as abhorrent as it has been that excuse doesn't work anymore.

[jmlima]

That picture is really useful for putting things into perspective, but I disagree with the claim that we can blame anything that started with War of the Spark. War of the Spark was released in 2019, and we can see that the notable increase in bans started in 2017. It is true that 2019/2020 had more than 2017/2018, but at that point it's a matter of degrees.
...

The picture also does makes clear a growing issue with interaction between new card design and old formats. Not that this is any news...

[H]

Well, I did play a little Historic Ranked yesterday and it was aggro decks galore. Seems like mission accomplished, I guess. Just that my deck was good against Combo, haha.

But I am saving all my wildcards for Amonkhet and Pioneer Masters, so just going to slog it out.

[jmlima]

Well, I did play a little Historic Ranked yesterday and it was aggro decks galore. Seems like mission accomplished, I guess. Just that my deck was good against Combo, haha.

But I am saving all my wildcards for Amonkhet and Pioneer Masters, so just going to slog it out.

Yeah, in historic, before you get above gold aggro is the (only?) way to go. After that different avenues open.

[H]

Yeah, in historic, before you get above gold aggro is the (only?) way to go. After that different avenues open.

Yeah, since the season ended, I got bumped to high Silver and it is almost all Goblins so far. I've got a fairly large stockpile of wildcards though, so I need to look at where I want to go for a different deck post Amonkhet Remastered. I really want to try to build toward something like BUG Delerium, but that is not really on the radar for Historic until Pioneer Masters though, since AKH won't really add anything for that.

I think I will just hold the line with what I have and keep on stockpiling wildcards for the time being. Maybe only burn a few to fill out the shocklands I am missing to open up a few more options.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Yeah, since the season ended, I got bumped to high Silver and it is almost all Goblins so far. I've got a fairly large stockpile of wildcards though, so I need to look at where I want to go for a different deck post Amonkhet Remastered. I really want to try to build toward something like BUG Delerium, but that is not really on the radar for Historic until Pioneer Masters though, since AKH won't really add anything for that.

I think I will just hold the line with what I have and keep on stockpiling wildcards for the time being. Maybe only burn a few to fill out the shocklands I am missing to open up a few more options.

I got to Mythic with this: https://imgur.com/V3vkmWc.jpg

It's pretty fun and you stomp on Goblins in Bo3. BUG so you can build towards the Pioneer deck.

[H]

It's pretty fun and you stomp on Goblins in Bo3. BUG so you can build towards the Pioneer deck.

Yeah, I had my eye on something like that. I generally only play BO1, because I generally don't have much time to play. Going to see how the meta shapes up in the next week or two, then see what I want to do exactly. Not to mention, my only Standard deck had Cauldron Familiar in it, so I have to think if I even want to bother making anything for that (probably not).

[mistercakes]

I got to Mythic with this: https://imgur.com/V3vkmWc.jpg

play mythics -> get mythic

[Phoenix Ignition]

play mythics -> get mythic

Magic has never not been pay 2 win.

Although I've never purchased anything in MTGA, it's pretty easy to go semi-infinite with just the daily rewards.

[Zoid]

Magic has never not been pay 2 win.

Although I've never purchased anything in MTGA, it's pretty easy to go semi-infinite with just the daily rewards.

Well you could argue, that in recent years the percentage of rares/mythics in top deck has significantly increased.

This is partially due to a shift in design (little threads and lots of utility -> more threads because they are too good) but also in upshifting everything.
Now even removal (Rider) or utility (Borrower) are rare/mythic.
Also they increased the frequency of land cycles which are also almost always rare.
Which is why you can have 4c goodstuff.dec piles in standard due to fetches + temples + triomes (check lands before rotation).
The only reason to play basics is for ramping and Fabled Passage.
Nonbasic hate above Tectonic Edge/Field of Ruin is too much to ask for apparently.

[Lord Seth]

I didnt mean to imply that it was only because of the new philosophy, only that it might be contributing to it, specifically the anomaly of 2020. There is a general increasing trend, but it looks like previously they created pushed sets/ cards at certain intervals (maybe for meta considerations), as every other year appears to have similar trends before the 2020 uptick. Considering the ~2 year development cycle of sets, it may be a little while longer of similar design choices before any reaction to the recent sets is seen in the game.

I think the reason simic is getting banned is for some reason it is the 'new blue' in that I assume the major design challenge over the past decade was how to make other colors better. They initially tried just printing better cards, but blue card selection/draw always made it better for them to splash the better cards then just playing those other colors most of the time. So they started to give things that make blue good to other colors (mainly green), like card selection/ advantage, Uro, UOAT, Veil, Growth Spiral, basically all do this, even stuff from earlier like stirrings and oath of nissa as well. Simultaneously the things other colors get are either too strong in the relevant formats (lurrus, wrenn, fires of invention, some combo cards) or are very strong and also played in combo like strategies (all the graveyard and artifact stuff that was banned in modern, breach, field of the dead etc) which are next up on the 'this stops me from attacking with creatures, i hate this play style' chopping block, after counters and land destruction got neutered years ago. Just look at the greatest hits this development team has brought since Kaladesh, they can claim they only develop for standard to disregard everything that has happened to the eternal formats, but when standard is as abhorrent as it has been that excuse doesn't work anymore.
You know, looking back and thinking further on it, I don't think it's wrong to pinpoint 2019 as a shift.

Sure, prior to that, cards were being banned at Standard at a very surprising rate. But look at the cards that were being banned in 2017 and 2018. Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage, Emrakul the Promised End, Felidar Guardian, Aetherworks Marvel, Attune with Aether, Rogue Refiner, Ramunap Ruins, Rampaging Ferocidon (the last of which was unbanned). These cards are mostly jokes in formats like Legacy or Modern. In fact, the only of these cards that see real play in Modern are Reflector Mage (in Humans) and Emrakul the Promised End (sideboard card in Tron), and they're far from the best cards in their respective decks.

Why? Because the problem with Standard then was they forgot to print decent answers to cards. Except for maybe Felidar Guardian, basically everything could have easily been handled without bannings had you just added a few answers to the card pool.

Now let's go into 2019, when the FIRE philosophy you mentioned started. Here are the cards banned in 2019 and 2020 in Standard: Field of the Dead, Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Fires of Invention, Cauldron Familiar, Growth Spiral, Teferi Time Raveler, and Wilderness Reclamation.

You see a noticeable boost in the power level of these cards. Sure, some of them are still cards that are basically nonentities in Modern or Legacy, but then you have cards like Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, and Teferi--cards that saw strong play in formats like Modern or Legacy, some of them even getting bans. These things reshaped the older formats. These cards aren't getting banned in Standard because they were just dropped into a Standard environment that didn't have proper answers; they're getting banned because they're crazy powerful irrespective of answers. (though it's possible that if they had included any kind of nonbasic land hate in Standard, Field of the Dead might have skated by)

So even if the number of bans haven't changed much (they've gone up, though), the cards being banned are markedly different. It's no longer a matter of "whoops, we should've maybe included a Pithing Needle effect to handle this!" anymore, it's "whoops, maybe we should have not ever printed this card in any way whatsoever."

[jmlima]

...

It's pretty fun and you stomp on Goblins in Bo3. BUG so you can build towards the Pioneer deck.

It's a leak, so take it with a pinch of salt, but Thoughtseize, RiP and collected Company, amongst others, are about to debut in Historic:


Wrath of God (R)
Thoughtseize (R)
Pact of Negation (R)
Shatterstorm (R)
Demonic Pact (M)
Hornet Queen (M)
Rest in Peace (R)
Anger of the Gods (R)
Collected Company (R)
Jace, Unraveler of Secrets (M)
Chandra, Pyromaster (M)
Sphinx’s Revelation (M)

Source: https://mtgazone.com/amonkhet-remastered-full-card-list-leaked-in-mtg-arena-pre-patch/

[bruizar]

You know, looking back and thinking further on it, I don't think it's wrong to pinpoint 2019 as a shift.

Sure, prior to that, cards were being banned at Standard at a very surprising rate. But look at the cards that were being banned in 2017 and 2018. Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage, Emrakul the Promised End, Felidar Guardian, Aetherworks Marvel, Attune with Aether, Rogue Refiner, Ramunap Ruins, Rampaging Ferocidon (the last of which was unbanned). These cards are mostly jokes in formats like Legacy or Modern. In fact, the only of these cards that see real play in Modern are Reflector Mage (in Humans) and Emrakul the Promised End (sideboard card in Tron), and they're far from the best cards in their respective decks.

Why? Because the problem with Standard then was they forgot to print decent answers to cards. Except for maybe Felidar Guardian, basically everything could have easily been handled without bannings had you just added a few answers to the card pool.

Now let's go into 2019, when the FIRE philosophy you mentioned started. Here are the cards banned in 2019 and 2020 in Standard: Field of the Dead, Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Fires of Invention, Cauldron Familiar, Growth Spiral, Teferi Time Raveler, and Wilderness Reclamation.

You see a noticeable boost in the power level of these cards. Sure, some of them are still cards that are basically nonentities in Modern or Legacy, but then you have cards like Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, and Teferi--cards that saw strong play in formats like Modern or Legacy, some of them even getting bans. These things reshaped the older formats. These cards aren't getting banned in Standard because they were just dropped into a Standard environment that didn't have proper answers; they're getting banned because they're crazy powerful irrespective of answers. (though it's possible that if they had included any kind of nonbasic land hate in Standard, Field of the Dead might have skated by)

So even if the number of bans haven't changed much (they've gone up, though), the cards being banned are markedly different. It's no longer a matter of "whoops, we should've maybe included a Pithing Needle effect to handle this!" anymore, it's "whoops, maybe we should have not ever printed this card in any way whatsoever."

The shift came when Chris Cocks became the new president.

[Phoenix Ignition]

It's a leak, so take it with a pinch of salt, but Thoughtseize, RiP and collected Company, amongst others, are about to debut in Historic:



Source: https://mtgazone.com/amonkhet-remastered-full-card-list-leaked-in-mtg-arena-pre-patch/

Interesting! Thoughtseize should only be good for the format, same with access to RiP. Anger of the Gods will help a lot, I am only worried about Coco warping the format here.

[Zoid]

You know, looking back and thinking further on it, I don't think it's wrong to pinpoint 2019 as a shift.

Sure, prior to that, cards were being banned at Standard at a very surprising rate. But look at the cards that were being banned in 2017 and 2018. Smuggler's Copter, Reflector Mage, Emrakul the Promised End, Felidar Guardian, Aetherworks Marvel, Attune with Aether, Rogue Refiner, Ramunap Ruins, Rampaging Ferocidon (the last of which was unbanned). These cards are mostly jokes in formats like Legacy or Modern. In fact, the only of these cards that see real play in Modern are Reflector Mage (in Humans) and Emrakul the Promised End (sideboard card in Tron), and they're far from the best cards in their respective decks.

Why? Because the problem with Standard then was they forgot to print decent answers to cards. Except for maybe Felidar Guardian, basically everything could have easily been handled without bannings had you just added a few answers to the card pool.

Now let's go into 2019, when the FIRE philosophy you mentioned started. Here are the cards banned in 2019 and 2020 in Standard: Field of the Dead, Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, Agent of Treachery, Fires of Invention, Cauldron Familiar, Growth Spiral, Teferi Time Raveler, and Wilderness Reclamation.

You see a noticeable boost in the power level of these cards. Sure, some of them are still cards that are basically nonentities in Modern or Legacy, but then you have cards like Oko, Once Upon a Time, Veil of Summer, and Teferi--cards that saw strong play in formats like Modern or Legacy, some of them even getting bans. These things reshaped the older formats. These cards aren't getting banned in Standard because they were just dropped into a Standard environment that didn't have proper answers; they're getting banned because they're crazy powerful irrespective of answers. (though it's possible that if they had included any kind of nonbasic land hate in Standard, Field of the Dead might have skated by)

So even if the number of bans haven't changed much (they've gone up, though), the cards being banned are markedly different. It's no longer a matter of "whoops, we should've maybe included a Pithing Needle effect to handle this!" anymore, it's "whoops, maybe we should have not ever printed this card in any way whatsoever."

I agree with almost everything.
The only thing I disagree on is the "forgetting to print answers".

To me it's completely obvious that was by choice since certain groups were always complaining about removal/counters being too good.
As result, answers were either way too expensive or to narrow to do anything to achieve anything.
IMO this especially noticeable from ~Kaladesh to Dominaria.

Afterwards they started to give players a few more tools - one could argue in some cases too many - to handle things.
However, in turn they raised the power level of threads to compensate.
Especially green has been completely warped in recent years.
Since it took them more than 2 decades to give a color tools to handle anything that isn't an artifact or enchantment, green cards have been pushed quite hard.
This also affected UG cards which has been basically the worst 2 color combo since it could only bounce since counters got massively shafted.

Other cards I'm pretty sure are deliberately powerful/overpowered.
Some are advertisements or strategies they just want to see played, so they make sure they are competitively viable.
While this is understandably from a design standpoint - who would want to design a mechanic/theme just to have it be played in casual at most - they still haven't figured out how to do that right, since they tend to also omit answers to these.
In the case of Companions, Underworld Breach, and Fires, I would claim they just print those to test the waters.
These cards help them to find out how far they can push stuff, both in terms of actual brokenness as well as community acceptance.
If it turns out these cards are too much, they just say just ban them and go on.
I expect Winota to be one of the next cards this will happen to.

I appreciate that they try to print better cards to not have only grizzly bears in the meta, but in recent years they have basically thrown away all restraint.
Any player with a bit experience will tell you immediately that 3feri or Underworld Breach are broken.
Companions being boring should be obvious at the latest after a few play tests.
Not to mention that deck restrictions are a terrible design space.
After 27 years they should know what they should know better.
Magic isn't a video game which can be shipped broken and then patched after the community beta tested it.
But if they want to become Hearthstone, then who knows, maybe they will "patch" cards in the future.

[Fox]

One quick thing on UG; I think it‘s more accurate to say that it never really quite came together. There is little that is more powerful than a color concept of “I can untap, you can‘t.“ This is a pretty dangerous concept to entertain, and it would have been far easier to overshoot than to get just right. Wilderness Rec is a patently bad card (by legacy standards), but the fact that they had to ban it shows how careful you need to be with tap/untap asymmetry.

In terms of the worst color combo, I think UR and its near-complete inability to deal with a Goyf is arguably a bigger hole than green missing a 1-mana removal spell.

[morgan_coke]

I think this is the first time I've ever seen a thread get five straight comments mod-erased and not end with the thread getting locked.

[Wrath of Pie]

The moderators saw a challenge in the thread title, and I would say they lived up to expectations.

[Mr. Safety]

Don't think we won't destroy everything! :mad: Just kidding, it was centered around 1 user in particular, so we made a clean sweep of the nonsense.

The biggest issue is it's just *another* ban discussion thread. The main thread is rough enough, we don't need another drama-fest. This one has mostly been courteous so it's allowed to live (for now.)

[jmlima]

And the banhammer slows its pace, but keeps hitting...

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/august-24-2020-banned-and-restricted-announcement?qr=4

[morgan_coke]

And the banhammer slows its pace, but keeps hitting...

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/august-24-2020-banned-and-restricted-announcement?qr=4

Goddammnit, I just burned wild cards for garbo like Hour of Promise specifically for Field. Sigh. Guess I can run full on Maze's End, I used it as a backup wincon in Field anyways.

[jmlima]

Getting a bit rusty, the banhammer fall agains, this time taking Uro with it. Standard only.

[Wrath of Pie]

They are banning tactical concessions.

https://i.redd.it/36xuio2u4sx51.png

[kinda]

Do you know where the link to this is?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I like how I can't even concede if I'm disinterested

[Wrath of Pie]

Do you know where the link to this is?
Here (https://magic.gg/events/zendikar-rising-championship-information-for-invitees)

[morgan_coke]

I'm ok with the end to "pro courtesy". But I don't think it's implemented in a non-clunky manner. And if you wanted to concede, you can still just play badly until you lose.

Basically, it's a nice idea, but it ultimately just annoys people who will do the same thing anyway.

[UseLess]

These rules are just for the Zendikar Rising Championship. So unless I'm mistaken, it holds no consequence for regular players or tournaments. So, whatever, I suppose?