Curse Stompy (Demon Stompy Reborn)

[FTW]

The “MBC” approach vs delver could be the best. In the oko era I felt that was not an option since they would all have sideboard grind cards like library/Klothys/uro that would beat you if you tried to grind too much. But perhaps I should reevaluate as expressive iteration is not nearly as scary.

I think it's worth trying out if you're already struggling vs Delver no matter which configuration you submit.

The Oko meta was so different. Oko invalidated creatures and rewarded enchantment-based prison or instant kill combos, so Curse or Helm would be much more reliable wincons than creatures vs RUG Oko. Uro/Klothys lifegain further invalidated small attacks. But Delver isn't playing that way anymore. Some RUG builds are splashing green for SB Klothys and Sylvan, but they're still primarily on the 1-drop beatdown plan. Plague Engineer on Humans can 3-for-1 them and Opposition Agent can mess up their mana, so you can get value disrupting them with fair MBC threats. There's also a good chance they board out some creature removal after game 1, whereas in the Oko meta they would have maindeck Oko and Uro either way.

Did you play this weekend?

Edit: Meekstone seems awkward. It gives them at least 1 attack. Marit Lage ignores it unless you can gain life. Ragavan can keep attacking through it, DRC can shrink (remove card from graveyard) to untap, Constructs can either attack under it or just grow really big and then hit once.

[Reeplcheep]

Summarizing the recent changes to the deck. I hadn’t played much until Sunday due to (good) life stuff. I went 3-4 with a list splashing a few sagas and a Retrofitter foundry. The package felt excellent vs control; and the “crystal vein” mode of tap it, get a chrome mox was also good. I lost a few matches due to not having a good feel on the play patterns. The meta was quite heavy in fair non-blue so the helms overperformed. There was a ton of artifact hate though which felt rough.

Summarizing the new cards for the deck:

Urza’s Saga
Very very good vs blue control. Still not sure if it is worth it on the whole; going too deep with vault of whispers got me blown out by sideboard cards.

Sudden Edict
Very nice flex removal vs marit lage and delver. I probably should figure out how to fit in a 4th.

Hive of the Eye Tyrant
Very low opportunity cost man-land. I will definitely try it out if saga doesn’t work.



Hi Reeplcheep!
I consider these slots untouchable (at least for the moment). As I run 2 off Plague Reaver in the sideboard like you do,
maybe one could be enough...don't you think?

Well they spoiled an even better EE/ratchet bomb. Sphere of Annihilation will definitely be tested. Or less and not hitting your own artifacts is sweet; with coating and karn you can even get around the type restrictions. Exiling itself for karn plus exiling ouphe, marit lage, and uro is amazing.

Apparently there will be a new curse in this set too...


Edit: Force of Despair could be good in the sideboard if the madness decks become popular. It was good back in the Gyruda days.

[Pelpopayo]

Summarizing the recent changes to the deck. I hadn’t played much until Sunday due to (good) life stuff. I went 3-4 with a list splashing a few sagas and a Retrofitter foundry. The package felt excellent vs control; and the “crystal vein” mode of tap it, get a chrome mox was also good. I lost a few matches due to not having a good feel on the play patterns. The meta was quite heavy in fair non-blue so the helms overperformed. There was a ton of artifact hate though which felt rough.

Summarizing the new cards for the deck:

Urza’s Saga
Very very good vs blue control. Still not sure if it is worth it on the whole; going too deep with vault of whispers got me blown out by sideboard cards.

Sudden Edict
Very nice flex removal vs marit lage and delver. I probably should figure out how to fit in a 4th.

Hive of the Eye Tyrant
Very low opportunity cost man-land. I will definitely try it out if saga doesn’t work.




Well they spoiled an even better EE/ratchet bomb. Sphere of Annihilation will definitely be tested. Or less and not hitting your own artifacts is sweet; with coating and karn you can even get around the type restrictions. Exiling itself for karn plus exiling ouphe, marit lage, and uro is amazing.

Apparently there will be a new curse in this set too...


Edit: Force of Despair could be good in the sideboard if the madness decks become popular. It was good back in the Gyruda days.

Sphere of Annihilation seems pretty good for this deck. I'll test it.
By the way, last week I played against some kind of Maverick depths deck.
My opponent were about to beat me (he had in play a Collector Ouphe, Knight of the Reliquary and 2 Elvish Reclaimer and I was pretty low of life) till I drew an Opposition Agent. He activated Knight of the Reliquary and I stole him a Karakas (there was only one wasteland left in his deck so I thought that it was the right choice due to Dark Depths).
After 2-3 turns he forgot about my Opposition Agent, he activated Elvish Reclaimer and I considered to steal a plain just in case I could draw the Overwhelming Splendor. I drew it and I succesfully cast it.

I had hardcast a Leyline of the Void previously. I drew finally a Helm of Obedience and I won the match. My advice: Don't throw in the towel specially if you play this deck.

[Reeplcheep]

Sphere of Annihilation seems pretty good for this deck. I'll test it.
By the way, last week I played against some kind of Maverick depths deck.
My opponent were about to beat me (he had in play a Collector Ouphe, Knight of the Reliquary and 2 Elvish Reclaimer and I was pretty low of life) till I drew an Opposition Agent. He activated Knight of the Reliquary and I stole him a Karakas (there was only one wasteland left in his deck so I thought that it was the right choice due to Dark Depths).
After 2-3 turns he forgot about my Opposition Agent, he activated Elvish Reclaimer and I considered to steal a plain just in case I could draw the Overwhelming Splendor. I drew it and I succesfully cast it.

I had hardcast a Leyline of the Void previously. I drew finally a Helm of Obedience and I won the match. My advice: Don't throw in the towel specially if you play this deck.

Awesome!! Do you have a picture or screenshot? I have only hardcast splendor by usinn mycrosynth lattice before. (Once it was win more, but the other time I needed it out of my hand for bridge (deaths hold exiled))

[Pelpopayo]

Awesome!! Do you have a picture or screenshot? I have only hardcast splendor by usinn mycrosynth lattice before. (Once it was win more, but the other time I needed it out of my hand for bridge (deaths hold exiled))

Sorry Reeplcheep, I didn't think about make it. But next I'll get a screenshot if I get some excepcional situation similar to this one.
By the way, do you have any video playing this deck? If so send me the link please.
Thank you.

[Reeplcheep]

Sorry Reeplcheep, I didn't think about make it. But next I'll get a screenshot if I get some excepcional situation similar to this one.
By the way, do you have any video playing this deck? If so send me the link please.
Thank you.

Other than the ones in the primer I only have this: (https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1398789708860203011)

[Pelpopayo]

Other than the ones in the primer I only have this: (https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1398789708860203011)

Many thanks for sharing this video. Helm of Obedience won the match!
It shows the resilience of this deck .I think that your opponent was mainly focused on having a hand with a lot of disruption and counters.
Actually he answered almost all your spells but it wasn't enough. I think he should have cast a couple of creatures at the same time to control the board.
I mean, he seemed to spend a bunch of cantrips looking for wastelands, disruption and counters (and this is understandable if you play against a combo deck like this) but an early couple of creatures could have win us.

By the way, plague reaver did a good job against Death's Shadow:wink:

[Reeplcheep]

Some thoughts for the showcase:

I assume the best deck to be ur delver with dragons rage Channeler and monkey and Murktide. Against that type of list leyline seems strong postboard.

Fair blue is going to be everywhere and will all be playing uro or monkey. Karakas looks to be well positioned.

I assume saga will be in most non-blue decks, and blue decks will be playing more meltdowns/force of Vigor to beat it rather than ouphe and bull rod. Thus helm might be a better postboard plan vs delver than curses.

Combo will not be too present. Between sphere of annihilation and bridge there isn’t much of a reason to keep spyglass as a target


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Karakas

4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Hagra’s Mauling
4 Sudden Edict

4 Curse of misfortunes
4 Karn the Great Creator
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Deaths Hold
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Curse of Fool’s Wisdom


SB:
4 Plague Engineer
3 Plague Reaver
2 Opposition Agent
1 Sphere of annihilation
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
1 liquimetal coating
1 Mycrosynth Lattice


Plan vs delver is -7 curses -4 karn for engineer, reaver, vault, bridge, helm & sphere.

[FTW]

Interesting. I like the SB plan to board out the slowest stuff and bring in the man plan. Probably your best fighting chance vs Delver, and those decks may board out removal not expecting it.

You make a good case that Leyline still has value against their threats and that they may lack good answers for Helm.

Karakas looks like good tech too.

When boarding in the man plan, is Opposition Agent not good enough to board in vs all their fetches?

[Reeplcheep]

I have been away for a while due to getting married, but others have done quite well with my list during this time. All are within 1 or 2 slots.

mcguirecj was 29th in Sunday challenge (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-08-16#mcguirecj_th_place)

disputedbump with the 5-0 this week (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-08-14#disputedbump_-)

The enduring idealist (on twitch) regularly 4-0s or 3-1s his weeklies

Haven’t had time to test but the new sphere seems great as a Urza’s saga plus monkey answer.

[FTW]

Congrats on the wedding.

What's the reason for Dismembers? Seems risky in an Ancient Tomb deck. Is this just to have turn 1 answers for Ragavan (that play around Chalice @ 1)? Could Warping Wail fill that role without the life loss?

[Reeplcheep]

I met the guy on mtgo recently and he was just testing it. He said it was ok.

If I wanted extra removal for Ragavan I would probably play karakas or sphere of annhilation

[Reeplcheep]

Thinking about trying saga again over MD helms. They are awkward in a high curve shell, but they are so strong vs counter spells which the deck is quite weak to. Helms immediately end the game which is nice, but changing to a wincon that can produce mana in a pinch is nice.

With mox and retro foundry I am not sure if they need more aggro support

[Reeplcheep]

Went 4-3 in the sat challenge and 4-1 in a league with the following experimental list. The uncounterability of saga has been REALLY nice combined with the uncounterable removal. The deck has a frustrating weakness against the “play a threat, ignore prison pieces, do nothing, force every wincon” strat, which edict and saga punishes HARD.

But losing the free wins of MD helms is definitely a large cost. It requires a lot more testing.


4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
7 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Urza’s Saga

4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox

1 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Hagra’s Mauling
4 Sudden Edict

4 Curse of misfortunes
4 Karn the Great Creator
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Deaths Hold
1 Overwhelming Splendor
1 Curse of Fool’s Wisdom


SB:
4 Plague Engineer
2 Plague Reaver
3 Opposition Agent
1 Sphere of annihilation
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience
1 liquimetal coating
1 Mycrosynth Lattice


I intentionally went as light as possible on the saga package to avoid hate. I could go deeper (md vaults, 1 mox opal etc)

[Reeplcheep]

Went 4-3 in this weekends challenge. Died a ton to murktide regent even with 4 Leyline 4 edict. It often left we wanting a saga-ble removal spell. Thoughts on Brittle Effigy or Pacification Array

[Reeplcheep]

From Twitter:
“
I think I have got post-MH2 build down after a magic break. 4 uncounterable threats + 4 uncounterable edicts makes this the least bad against delver it has ever been; won the game below only having cast a mox. Saga is a great plan B if you don't commit too deeply to it.
“

I won a game with only casting a single spell vs delver; saga is nuts. Raising my land count without decreasing threat density is really nice.

As far as above goes, after testing I felt that I can only run so many terrible tutor targets, and fools wisdom does more for the deck than effigy or array would do. List: (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-K_BYzVEAQVCcB?format=jpg&name=large)

[FTW]

Yeah don't waste space on too many Saga targets. Retrofitter Foundry + Moxes are enough. If you run too much Saga cheese, you end up with bad topdecks and lose harder if they disrupt Saga. Saga on its own already does enough. 1 Mox Opal is probably good so you aren't forced to imprint.

[Reeplcheep]

Yeah don't waste space on too many Saga targets. Retrofitter Foundry + Moxes are enough. If you run too much Saga cheese, you end up with bad topdecks and lose harder if they disrupt Saga. Saga on its own already does enough. 1 Mox Opal is probably good so you aren't forced to imprint.

I found that mox made me want to run vault of whispers, and then I got blown out by hate. I was worried without vault mox opal will be yet another dead draw half the time, and if I just made 2 constructs I probably have some card stuck in hand I can afford to lose.

[Tomjab]

I get back to online legacy this week, took your list and finished 5-0 and 4-1 on both my leagues
I was surprised that with sagas and edicts I beat ragavan/delvers four times. It seems that the deck is now complete

Tried brainstone to put back splendor/moxes but first target was always foundry. Need more testes.

[Reeplcheep]

I get back to online legacy this week, took your list and finished 5-0 and 4-1 on both my leagues
I was surprised that with sagas and edicts I beat ragavan/delvers four times. It seems that the deck is now complete

Tried brainstone to put back splendor/moxes but first target was always foundry. Need more testes.

Great to hear! It’s possible I want another saga target, but I feel like I lose more games to having exiled cruel reality than if I have to get a chrome mox with saga. But I could be wrong.

I think the delver mu is so good mostly because of the decks strength, but there are meta factors at play too. 4 murktide plus 4 DRC makes leyline the best it has ever been in this matchup. Delver also has the highest amount of 1 drops and least amount of forces it has had since mh1, to beat the mirror. Which makes chalice amazing (if they aren’t jeksai).

[Reeplcheep]

A 3 mana curse that flips into a 4/4 lifelink was spoiled. I posted discussion in the spoiler thread. I think it is reasonable to play 2 over fools wisdom and a land.

[Reeplcheep]

Played another challenge. Went 4-2. Deck feels pretty good. Non blue decks still feel like free wins (except maybe GW depths) and saga still feels awesome versus blue decks.

Got 21/64 (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-super-qualifier-2021-09-05#bomberboss_st_place)

Highlights include beating omnitell without casting a single spell (saga put out a fast clock and then I put in 3ball to stop their omni line) and getting curse of misfortunes hit by prismatic ending because of my own Urborg.

Only thoughts on the build is I have too many Karn targets. Which one should I cut for another opposition agent?

[Pelpopayo]

Played another challenge. Went 4-2. Deck feels pretty good. Non blue decks still feel like free wins (except maybe GW depths) and saga still feels awesome versus blue decks.

Got 21/64 (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-super-qualifier-2021-09-05#bomberboss_st_place)

Highlights include beating omnitell without casting a single spell (saga put out a fast clock and then I put in 3ball to stop their omni line) and getting curse of misfortunes hit by prismatic ending because of my own Urborg.

Only thoughts on the build is I have too many Karn targets. Which one should I cut for another opposition agent?

Many thanks for these new improvements. They really work!

By the way, I'm achieving better results with 1 Helm of Obedience in the main instead of a 1 Curse of Fool’s Wisdom.

Some plays are just a free win:wink:

[Reeplcheep]

Great to hear! Yah against fair non blue or combo the fast wins of helm are very good and I would want 2. But against stuff like delver having the extra lands and uncounterable threats is invaluable.

An occasional streamer of curses got top 16 in the showcase yesterday (https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1439719657699782663)

Some of his comments:
The leylines were great.
He tried Thran foundry as gy/doomsday hate.
He misses the helms but saga and edicts were great too.
Opposing sagas were an issue.

I agree with most of the above. I haven’t tried foundry, not sure if the doomsday value is worth being slightly worse than nihil spellbomb or tormods crypt. I guess it can shuffle in countered curses.

[Reeplcheep]

I get back to online legacy this week, took your list and finished 5-0 and 4-1 on both my leagues
I was surprised that with sagas and edicts I beat ragavan/delvers four times. It seems that the deck is now complete

Tried brainstone to put back splendor/moxes but first target was always foundry. Need more testes.

This you? (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-09-18#pablo_figuero_-)

The showcase list above tried Thran Foundry. It can do the shuffle things back in thing, but also can hate on doomsday or gy decks. It seems like tech worth testing.

In other news curse of leeches is bugged on mtgo; the reattach on flip clause doesn’t work so it just kills itself.

[Reeplcheep]

Great content, Togores reviews his top 16 finish (mentioned above) (https://www.twitch.tv/togoresmtg/v/1155153323?sr=a&t=14s)

[Reeplcheep]

I usually play on Saturday challenges which didn’t fire. But 2 Sunday pilots got into the top 32.

6th place (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-09-27#mcguirecj_th_place)

24th place (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-09-27#burrarun_th_place)

Both of them plus togores above ran my exact maindeck with only minor sideboard changes. I think the deck is really tight. Every card except fools wisdom (which you could replace with leeches if it wasn’t bugged) feels powerful. And the results are showing it as one of the best chalice shells at the current time.

GW Titan and sylvan plug just became GW Depths
Red prison just dies hard to murktide and can’t run saga.
Uro and murktide killed aggro eldrazi and white eldrazi imo.
Not sure if the Emry decks became worse, but they dropped chalice to become affinity.
Eldrazi post won this challenge but is quite rare.
Only 1 guy plays bomberman online, so no comment.

Other meta things that help the deck:
Leyline is incredibly strong vs the premier blue threats (DRC/Murktide/Uro)
UR delver has an insanely low curve right now and few FONs so chalice is excellent
UWx decks have replaced Judgment/teferis/disenchants with ending which miss curses.
Edict is basically the only non-white removal spell that is good against both monkey and murktide.
The best non-blue fair decks replaced cards that are good vs us with cards good vs delver (judgment to solitudes in D&T, ports to saga in lands)
Sneak and Show and Doomsday are easier combo decks to beat than Rainbow Depths or Omnitell.
Black has no good uncounterable threats like 6cmc Chandra or cavern reality smasher, so saga was huge upgrade for the fair blue matchup. It did take a bit figure out how to fit it in; going to deep generally got the deck blown out by hate.

GW depths and Jeksai Monkey are definitely bad matchups, but every other matchup feels good to great.

[Reeplcheep]

Since other people are performing with the deck in large events, I added a results section to the primer.

[Reeplcheep]

I am back on the deck after brewing with spirits for a bit. Getting a bunch of 4-1s and 3-2s.

The deck seems well equipped to handle most things now except opposing sagas. Needles/Plague engineer/opposition agents aren’t quite there.

What do you think is the best answer between Field of Ruin
Sphere of Annihilation
Feed the swarm


FoR is maindeckable if I am greedy on black sources or trim to 2 cities.
Sphere of annihilation is karnable game 1, hits uro and PWs, and is only 1 mana. It does hit my own sagas though.
Feed the swarm is probably the best vs delver as more removal.

[Reeplcheep]

Looking at this weeks top 32 it could be a good meta for field of ruin. (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-10-11#bryant_cook_st_place)

12/32 decks had 0 basics, 7/32 had saga, 3/32 decks were doomsday, and 18/32 had other utility lands. More than one ur delver deck had no basics but had steam vents.

Overall that means 25/32 decks either had lots of utility lands or 0 basics or doomsday, any of which make field of ruin a good card.

My manabase to fit in field of ruin would be


4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Field of Ruin
4 Urza’s Saga
6 Swamp
2 Urborg
4 Chrome Mox
4 Hagra’s Mauling


Only 12 initial black sources is dicey, but I do have 10 ways of getting black later (mauling or field of ruin or saga for chrome mox).

Less basics for wasteland shouldn’t be a problem; in this event red prison was running only 5 mountains (+4 den of the bugbear + 4 shatterskull smashing)

Ninja: field of ruin also is pretty nice with sideboard opposition agents as well.

[Reeplcheep]

The math on colour screw by Black Initial Mana Sources per Frank Karsten. I assume you always have a black card to imprint if you want to cast a black card. I assume if you don’t have black lands you kept a hand with at least 1 sol land.

New manabase: 6 swamp 2 Urborg 2 Field 6 sol lands 4 saga 4 Mox 4 mauling
Old manabase: 7 swamp 2 Urborg 3 City 7 sol lands 4 saga 4 Mox 4 mauling
Traditional manabase 11 Swamp 8 sol lands 4 Mox




new

old

trad



Turn
Sources
% screw
Sources
% Screw
Sources
% Screw


1
12
13.7
13
10.9
15
6.4


2
18
1.4
17
2.1
15
4.2


3
22
0
21
0.1
15
2.7


4
26
0
25
0
19
0



Comparing to other decks 3c ragavan decks usually only have 11-12 T1 Red sources (3 volc 8ish fetches)
Lands has only 13-14 green sources (3 grove 2 fetch 2 taiga 1 Forest 1-2 yavimaya 4 mox)
Elves has around 13-14 (20 - 4 cradle -2 dryad -0-1 bog)
Anzid 4c miracles has 13 W sources (1 Savannah 3 tundra 9 fetch) with 4 plows 4 ending

[Pelpopayo]

Looking at this weeks top 32 it could be a good meta for field of ruin. (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-10-11#bryant_cook_st_place)

12/32 decks had 0 basics, 7/32 had saga, 3/32 decks were doomsday, and 18/32 had other utility lands. More than one ur delver deck had no basics but had steam vents.

Overall that means 25/32 decks either had lots of utility lands or 0 basics or doomsday, any of which make field of ruin a good card.

My manabase to fit in field of ruin would be


4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Field of Ruin
4 Urza’s Saga
6 Swamp
2 Urborg
4 Chrome Mox
4 Hagra’s Mauling


Only 12 initial black sources is dicey, but I do have 10 ways of getting black later (mauling or field of ruin or saga for chrome mox).

Less basics for wasteland shouldn’t be a problem; in this event red prison was running only 5 mountains (+4 den of the bugbear + 4 shatterskull smashing)

Ninja: field of ruin also is pretty nice with sideboard opposition agents as well.

[Reeplcheep]

Field of ruin testing went decently. It wasn’t insane but the mana felt ok and I did get the cantripping strip mine once.

Tweet below:
I took a bit of a breather on curses; I tried to brew legacy spirits and got r1 as meme killers on DeadByDaylight. I am testing a build with slightly more urza's saga answers; currently 9-1 in leagues with it. No Curse of Leechs as it is bugged.

Matchups:
WLW jesksai monkey superfriends
WW Snoop Goblins
WW 4c Loam
WW UW B2B control
WW The Epic Gamble

List:

2 Field of Ruin

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp
4 Urza’s Saga
4 Hagra’s Mauling
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

1 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Sudden Edict
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Karn, The Great Creator
4 Curse of Misfortunes
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Fool’s Wisdom
1 Curse of Deaths Hold
1 Overwhelming Splendor

SB
2 Sphere of Annihilation
1 Torpor Orb

4 Plague Engineer
2 Opposition Agent
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Liquimettal coating
1 Mycrosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience


For further testing I think I should see if I need lattice. There aren’t a ton of matchups where coating or helm wouldn’t do the job (mostly lands/12 post)

[Reeplcheep]

Lots of good results recently. Chalice is very strong right now if you dodge prismatic ending, and Leyline is also well positioned.

The 5-0 mentioned above. (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-10-16#reeplcheep_-)

McGuirecj is still doing decently in challenges with it. (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-10-18#mcguirecj_th_place)

I went 4-0 in a webcam legacy league. A lot more fair non-blue makes the deck well positioned.
W don’t remember
2-1 TES got t1 emptied for 18 game 2 but both games OTP felt solidly in my control.
2-0 D&T. T1 karn OTP is good enough. g2 pe into pe into mauling into curse FTW.
2-0 MonoB zombies. OTD mox rit rit karn -> sphere to answer his champion of the perished. I get punished by the bone splinters variant that kills a PW but top deck chalice is GG. G2 t0 Leyline t2 PE is good enough.

Went 3-2 in the anzid 1.2k for 11th/40. (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4367348#paper) in round 3 I got on coverage as the backup match. Losses were to D&T (got trounced by kaldra, hence why I think a bunch of sphere of annihilations might be good. And vs aluren it had been a long day and I made several poor plays in a row.

[Reeplcheep]

Paper list

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
4 Urza’s Saga
4 Hagra’s Mauling
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

1 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Sudden Edict
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Karn, The Great Creator
4 Curse of Misfortunes
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Leeches
1 Curse of Deaths Hold
1 Overwhelming Splendor

SB
1 Sphere of Annihilation
1 Torpor Orb
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Plague Engineer
2 Opposition Agent
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Liquimettal coating
1 Mycrosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience

[FTW]

Is Sphere of Annihilation helping in those matchups?

How's the 4x Sudden Edict main performing? Seems great against Depths, Reanimator, SneakShow, and threat-light blue decks. But what about fair creature decks that can sacrifice an irrelevant creature (D&T, Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves)? Do you wish it was a different removal often, or is it doing its job?

[Reeplcheep]

Is Sphere of Annihilation helping in those matchups?

How's the 4x Sudden Edict main performing? Seems great against Depths, Reanimator, SneakShow, and threat-light blue decks. But what about fair creature decks that can sacrifice an irrelevant creature (D&T, Goblins, Maverick, Merfolk, Elves)? Do you wish it was a different removal often, or is it doing its job?

It’s definitely not at its best vs go wide decks. You do have 4 PE in the board for those though. The thought was that sphere helps answer those situations it has trouble with (sai/elves/kaldra complete/saga tokens). It can be slow and gets hurt by artifact hate though.

Vs tempo having an uncounterable answer to a threat is so important. Several games you can just go chrome mox, saga, edict their dude and then win without ever casting another spell. So many games are decided by murktide, force your removal. An undazeable 2 drop is amazing for curving out too.

[FTW]

Good point. Saga makes those starts even more powerful, never casting a counterable spell.

[Reeplcheep]

More people picking up the deck means the deck has most chances to prove itself.

SuperCow got top 4 in yesterday’s challenge with my standard 60 ("https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-10-25#SuperCow12653_th_place/)

Sideboard choices are a tad higher on doomsday hate than what I have been playing, but it is still within 2-3 cards of my “ stock” 75. I don’t know who this person is but it is impressive! In semis they faced GW Depths which is one of the worst mus so it’s possible they could have won the whole thing with different pairings. Another thing to add to the trophy case!

[Reeplcheep]

I had a fun co-stream with phil this week. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj69BqrVo3M)

I apologize for my audio quality but this is great if you want to see how the saga list plays.

[Pelpopayo]

I had a fun co-stream with phil this week. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj69BqrVo3M)

I apologize for my audio quality but this is great if you want to see how the saga list plays.

Great! Good matches! but...why 2 x Sphere of Annihilation? I think is little redundant.

By the way, my metagame is full of force of vigor so I removed Mycrosynth Lattice, and Sphere of Annihilation from the side adding 3 collective brutality.

I also play 1 pelakka predation in the main instead of Curse of Fool’s Wisdom to get 1 more land/discard.

So my recent sideboard is:

3 Plague Engineer
4 Opposition Agent (amazing against Jeskai Ragavan and green decks)
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Pithing Needle
3 Collective Brutality
1 Mycrosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Helm of Obedience

[Reeplcheep]

The spheres are boardwipe you can board in, and karn will still be able to get them after they go off.

————-

Got 3rd in the challenge! The deck feels great! I got a bit lucky with slow opponents. Vs GW I got a Magical Christmas land t2 rit rit rit karn get helm cast helm activate win.
UR Delver L(Time out G2, i had 18 min)
UW Yorion Affinity WW
Elves WW
GW Depths WW
URWg Control WW
MonoB stax WLW
Lands WL(Time out)
URWb control LL

[FTW]

Got 3rd in the challenge! The deck feels great! I got a bit lucky with slow opponents. Vs GW I got a Magical Christmas land t2 rit rit rit karn get helm cast helm activate win.
UR Delver L(Time out G2, i had 18 min)
UW Yorion Affinity WW
Elves WW
GW Depths WW
URWg Control WW
MonoB stax WLW
Lands WL(Time out)
URWb control LL

Congrats on making 3rd!

Prison and maindeck Leyline seem strong in that meta: 2nd place was full HelmLine combo (4 Voidwalker, 4 Leyline, 3 Helm, 4 Karn) and 4th place was Blood Moon. Looking at the other lists in the top brackets I see a lot of Reanimator, Lands, combo, and of course UR.

[Pelpopayo]

The spheres are boardwipe you can board in, and karn will still be able to get them after they go off.

————-

Got 3rd in the challenge! The deck feels great! I got a bit lucky with slow opponents. Vs GW I got a Magical Christmas land t2 rit rit rit karn get helm cast helm activate win.
UR Delver L(Time out G2, i had 18 min)
UW Yorion Affinity WW
Elves WW
GW Depths WW
URWg Control WW
MonoB stax WLW
Lands WL(Time out)
URWb control LL

I tried them but I find them two slow against ragavan decks (Prismatic Ending and Meltdown)
By the way congratulations for you third place!

[Reeplcheep]

I tried them but I find them two slow against ragavan decks (Prismatic Ending and Meltdown)
By the way congratulations for you third place!

Yah they are a bit slow vs ragavan. Against saga tokens and indestructible germs they are excellent though

[Reeplcheep]

You need to play tight & get a bit lucky to do well in tournaments. I did neither in this showcase this Sunday.
LL Affinity
LL Jeksai Monkey
WLW Dauthi Helm
WLW UR Monkey
WW Hogaak
LL The Epic Gamble
WLW Eldrazipost
LWW Bant Control
5-2 for 53rd.

More interestingly, curses had 5 pilots in the 177 person event, which is in the top 10 most frequent decks! An overall win rate of 50% plus another player in 35th really proves the deck is Tier 2. The other player MathiasHardstyle (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-11-06#mathiashardstyle_-) plays it a bunch too and gets most of the 5-0s recently.

data sheet for the showcase (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1woGWt-jPIGLr6Ktfy-hzB4RQlSfX_gzYbinMjixLpEw/htmlview#)

——

There isn’t much to do with deck development. The only consideration would be cutting Karn. Karn is awesome against everything except delver. But if half the format is delver game 1, perhaps I should just play MD helms? A lot more meltdowns are seeing play than null rods.

Edit: another consideration is saga has made the deck even more full of gas and mana hungry. Perhaps I can cut the mauling for a swamp to have the proper 14 t1 black sources.

[Reeplcheep]

Pacification array looked pretty great here. (https://twitter.com/ThrabenU/status/1456277336706334734) Perhaps it is worth testing as an anti delver saga bullet? Generally the hardest matchups for me are jesksai and GW and it seems like it could be great against murktide and marit lage.

[Reeplcheep]

Went 3-4 in the challenge. Adding the 8th swamp felt decent. Pacification array was too mana intensive. There were lots of jesksai monkey decks so sphere might not be good any more.

Thoughts on the new path of peril? It doesn’t hit kaldra getm/KOTR/murktide. But it does miss some of the disadvantages of the other options.
Bontu’s Last Reckoning
Damnation
Sphere of Annihilation


Edit: Legion’s End is another option and hits the cards I need to cheaply (DRC, kaldra, and constructs). It isn’t as good vs d&t and elves but maybe that’s ok.

[Reeplcheep]

Prepping for EW:

Lots and lots of jesksai monkey. The sideboard plan of Leyline + kill everything has been working moderately well. Having a non permanent source of card advantage could be good to beat their plan of fow/ending everything -> expressive iteration.

I am considering darkblast or murderous rider. Darkblast means the monkey will die through counters. Rider is CA and helps vs Jace decks. I am considering splitting the 4th mauling to karakas as it is better vs monkey and uro.

[ESG]

Edit: Legion’s End is another option and hits the cards I need to cheaply (DRC, kaldra, and constructs). It isn’t as good vs d&t and elves but maybe that’s ok.

Legion's End is a nice find. I forgot that card existed.

[Reeplcheep]

I went 5-2 in the challenge for 16th place. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGclZCaUUAALWpn?format=jpg&name=small.
I only made minor changes to the list. Curses totem was a hate piece that I though might be more effective than torpor orb vs elves and GW depths. I never saw it though.
Just like having a back-up curse in curse of fools wisdom helps a ton vs control, the extra Retrofitter has been great. I cut the 4th edict for it since there aren’t really any other flex slots left. Curse of Leeches is still bugged on MTGO. 4th mauling was changed to a swamp since I was skimping on t1 black sources.

My only losses were to Bant Zenith. I am not sure how to improve that matchup; it has the hardest parts of maverick and 4c control in one deck. I can beat knight of autumn and wasteland or fow and uro, but both is really hard. The one game I won was on the back of t1 opposition agent.

A bunch of other people are trying the deck and doing quite well. (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-12-11#yankee___-) I do think profane tutor is pretty terrible though. Overall other than blue zenith and GW depths the deck looks pretty well positioned. Elves and Reanimator seem to be the most popular combo decks, which are great match-ups. The most popular monkey deck is playing delver & DRC over saga and/or prismatic ending, and thus is very vulnerable to chalice. Yorion D&T and 8 cast are also reasonably favourable.

[Reeplcheep]

I always preferred pelakka predation to mauling, but with the oko ban I thought there wasn’t enough targets anymore. Well blue control has figured out that 3cmc planeswalker are good again, so I am trying it out. The second league went quite well. https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1483623675865690115

3 2-0 wins vs UR delver. With them playing so much tech for the mirror (gutshots main, no force of negation) the matchup feels the best it has ever felt. 2nd Retrofitter, although added for control, won a few games by itself vs delver too.

[Reeplcheep]

I did quite poorly in the showcase (2-5 plus 2 byes), but it felt more like variance/poor play was at fault than deck issues. I’m still rocking a 66%-70% win rate in leagues.

————-

The new utility land spoiled will be quite strong in this deck.

Roadside Reliquary
Land
{T}: Add {C}.
{2}, {T}, Sacrifice Roadside Reliquary: Draw a card if you control an artifact. Draw a card if you control an enchantment.
“Travelers who leave an offering many pass freely through the forest kami’s domain.”

By far the most common reason the deck loses is too much/too little mana. This is saga 5-6 where it provides mana early and card advantage late after you blow your load. More ways to use mana at instant speed also makes it easier to hold up opposition agent/sudden edict.

With 12-20 of each type (depending on how you count karn/saga/curse targets) it should always be online by the time you would want to cash it in. I tried similar cards pre-ZNR but stuff like Sea-Gate Wreckage and Castle Lochwain were both slow and turned off if a curse gets caught in your hand.

Unfortunately it is worse than the other colourless lands, any cuts will either hurt our black count for mox, or t1 B sources, or extra curse/saga targets. Since this should inherently improve the control matchups, and I have lots of t2/t3 B sources (karn-> vault, saga -> mox, Hagra’s/pelakka), I think the 8th swamp and the 2nd Retrofitter are the most replaceable.

Something like this:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
4 Urza’s Saga
2 Hagra’s Mauling
2 Roadside Reliquary
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

1 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Sudden Edict
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Karn, The Great Creator
4 Curse of Misfortunes
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Fool’s Wisdom
1 Curse of Deaths Hold
1 Overwhelming Splendor

[Reeplcheep]

Some quick notes:

I went 4-3 in the Sunday challenge for 17th. All my opponents made top 8 and I definitely could have played better.

Tensai (a moderately well known pox player) won 2 medium size events last week with curses. The webcam legacy January league and the quarterly invitational. He smushed a bunch of delver to get there, confirming my statements that this is the best the deck has ever been at beating delver.

Lots and lots of court of cunning (in ur delver) and teferi (in days undoing or uro control decks) in the showcase. Online at least, with curse of leech’s bugged, the court of cunning is very difficult to race. It is possible that Hive of the Eye Tyrant is the second best utility land after saga. It’s worth testing at least.

I played Brittle Effigy as a saga target for big creatures. It did finish me a game vs elves by removing an Archon of Valor’s reach but the saga beats might have gotten there anyways

Torpor Orb has been somewhat medium since D&T is a great matchup and doomsday is pretty uncommon. Since fair blue is everywhere it could be worth switching it out for something like a murderous rider.

[Jelmerz77]

Some quick notes:
It is possible that Hive of the Eye Tyrant is the second best utility land after saga. It’s worth testing at least.


Would you cut swamps for this card? 2 or 3 ish I guess.

[Reeplcheep]

I would cut 1 swamp 1 Retrofitter for it I think. The 2nd Retrofitter has underperformed as I am seeing less control and more meltdowns. But maybe it’s better to just play basics and more removal to beat delver, and worry about court in the sideboard.

Not sure what the “5th” sudden edict should be, but

Eliminate
Feed the swarm
Mire In Misery
Collective Brutality
Legions End
3rd Hagra’s Mauling

Are all considerations.

[Reeplcheep]

Would you cut swamps for this card? 2 or 3 ish I guess.

Although much less powerful, maybe I should play Takenuma, Abandoned Mire? I am already at the minimum t1 untapped black sources (14) so maybe I can’t afford more colourless lands. In a deck with saga and ancient tomb I don’t think my opponents will waste my black source often. As a one or two of the opportunity cost is very low.

4 mana to get back karn is very slow, but against control at least it helps lessen flood. Postboard though it could be very powerful as Opposition Agent/plague engineer are must answers in a lot of cases. I could even run murderous rider if I trim my karn package a bit. Channel is instant speed if it dies as a creature and it doesn’t get shuffled if the adventure gets forced.

Something like this would be less powerful but more stable than the above:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp
2 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
4 Urza’s Saga
3 Hagra’s Mauling
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

1 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Sudden Edict
4 Leyline of the Void

4 Karn, The Great Creator
4 Curse of Misfortunes
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Fool’s Wisdom
1 Curse of Deaths Hold
1 Overwhelming Splendor

3 Plague Engineer
3 Opposition Agent
2 Murderous Rider
1 Mycrosynth Lattice
1 Liquimettal Coating
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
1 Brittle Effigy


Overall I have been quite happy with brittle effigy; it answers big scary threats while avoiding the postboard meltdowns.

[Reeplcheep]

I think the new Soul Transfer could take the sideboard flex removal slot.

Soul Transfer
{1}{B}{B}
Sorcery
Choose one. If you control an artifact and an enchantment as you cast this spell, you may choose both.
• Exile target creature or planeswalker.
• Return target creature or planeswalker card from your graveyard to your hand.


It’s pretty comparable to k command as a raise dead plus do a thing. As a raise dead you can use it vs stuff like doomsday that otherwise would be rough to justify bringing in rider or soul shatter.
Over murderous rider, the lack of life loss is great vs delver and exiling is very important vs kaldra/uro. The returned creature/pw is less reliable but more powerful than a 2/3 lifelink. With 8 cheap artifacts and enchantments each it should be not that hard to turn it on mid game and basically guaranteed late game.

[Reeplcheep]

I reviewed 201 matches of saga curses. Most of the data is myself playing in mtgo leagues. The findings were mostly in tune with my intuitions but I wanted to show that curses is a premier chalice deck.



Event
Record


Leagues
104-54


Challenges
18-14


Showcases
3-5





Matchups
Results


Best (BR)
12-0


Common (Delver)
15-17


Worst (UWr)
4-7



65% is a normal benchmark for a decent player playing a good deck so I am very happy there.
Challenges are both harder and more fair than leagues so I am pretty happy with 55% there too.
Reanimator is a good matchup for obvious reasons.
Edict and saga are indeed bringing the matchup with delver up to even, but we are still trying to resolve 5 drops into daze/wasteland.
Jeksai days/stoneblade makes sense as a bad matchup since they don’t care about Leyline or chalice, and usually have both ending and 3feri.

[Reeplcheep]

Curse of leeches is finally fixed on MTGO after 8 months of being bugged to kill itself. Now I can finally test the paper list online, since I don’t play much in paper.
In case you forget what this does:

Curse of Leeches
{2}{B}
Enchantment — Aura Curse
Enchant player
As this permanent transforms into Curse of Leeches, attach it to a player.
At the beginning of enchanted player’s upkeep, they lose 1 life and you gain 1 life.
Daybound (If a player casts no spells during their own turn, it becomes night next turn.)
Leeching Lurker
Color Indicator: Black Creature — Leech Horror
Lifelink
Nightbound (If a player casts at least two spells during their own turn, it becomes day next turn)
First darkness falls. Then it burrows in.
4/4

The theory behind why I am excited for this is that you need a back up win con curse in case you draw or exile cruel reality. Currently that role is provided by Curse of Fool’s Wisdom, but the card is pretty aweful to draw. In some situations the lifegain and cantrip hate can be good so that is why it is in the deck over cruel reality #2. Low impact and hard to cast.

Curse of leeches is the perfect mana cost for this deck (2B). Itprovides significant lifegain, answers PWs and takes the monarch. Stuff like Teferi and Court of cunning can beat cruel reality better than 2 leeches. If you are expecting a bounce spell on your first target this is the least painful to get returned to hand. Curse of misfortunes can get more than 1 out of the deck if it is night, since it has a different name.

The actual effect is not amazing but it’s at least close to legacy playable cards, unlike fools wisdom which is 99% of the time a pitch card. The front side is a bargain bin Klothys and the backside is a batterskull without vigilance, which are playable 3ish mana cards. Saga/Retrofitter/edict make it easy to turn it to night and Trinisphere/chalice stops people switching it to day. I only played a few paper games but it has promise.

It will be a bit worse vs combo but being able to turn a blank card into “hold target pw or small creature in check” is huge vs fair decks like delver. In one webcam game against merfolk it was very good hardcast; they have a lot of trouble double spelling to flip it back.

[Reeplcheep]

The paper list differences from the previous mtgo lists:

1 mauling & 1 curse of fools wisdom -> 2 Curse of Leeches (lower curve, less need for lands)

Sideboard 1 PE 1 Opp agent -> 2 grids (makes it difficult to both flip to day and counter my follow up spells. Also 8cast and delver are played a lot, whose primary plans are Force everything.)https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQBtdoxXEAIcxig?format=jpg&name=small

[FTW]

Looks good. How is it performing with the new Curse? Do you miss the lifegain? Has the hardcast come up yet?

[Reeplcheep]

Looks good. How is it performing with the new Curse? Do you miss the lifegain? Has the hardcast come up yet?

Other than the match against merfolk I haven't gotten many games in. I just figured out it was fixed yesterday.

[Reeplcheep]

With more games curse of leeches has been quite good, especially with Trinisphere to keep it night time.

One game it stabilized vs delver and a 1/1 drc and another it out muscled a rabble master. In other cases it wasn’t insane but at least it was castable. However the trick to get 2 out was usually win more. Grid was good but didn’t map out very well. Seeing a lot more serenity/B2B/blood moon than I would like.

I think that 1 fools 1 Hagra’s mauling to 1 leeches 1 feed the swarm and 2 feed the swarm aside instead of the grids.

The extra saga/delver answer is still helpful vs 8cast/drc. Unlike grid, it can be brought in vs fair non blue and still be fine if they don’t have hate enchantments.

[Reeplcheep]

Got a 5-0 with a curse of leeches list. (https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1515688748960288772)

[Reeplcheep]

This spoiler has gotten my brewing juices flowing:


https://i.redd.it/ftrf8mft68291.png

2B Enchantment

At the beginning of your precombat main, choose one or more:

Create a treasure, lose 1
Draw a card, lose 2
Create a 3/2 colourless shapeshifter token, lose 3

The first mode has obvious synergy with construct tokens, is very good against daze, and helps a huge amount with hard casting lattice/cruel reality/overwhelming splendor

The second mode is an obvious upgrade to dark tutelage (8 drops lol), phyrexian arena (no BB), and treacherous blessing (usually more life loss)

The third mode will usually cost too much life to activate, but is strong against control and combo. It also gives the creature density to run shadowspear and is a changeling for Retrofitter foundry.

Against combo and control this provides both cards and threats.

Against creature decks providing a treasure every turn is super powerful since mana denial is usually how you lose. A colourless blocker can also be occasionally relevant.

This is a list just considering it a better smoothing card than Hagra’s mauling. -3 mauling - 1 foundry -> + swamp + 2
Connections +1 shadowspear. You could make more major changes if needed.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
4 Urza’s Saga
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

1 Shadowspear
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Sudden Edict
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Black Market Connections

4 Karn, The Great Creator
4 Curse of Misfortunes
1 Cruel Reality
1 Curse of Leeches
1 Curse of Deaths Hold
1 Overwhelming Splendor

4 Plague Engineer
4 Opposition Agent
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Mycrosynth Lattice
1 Liquimettal Coating
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
1 Brittle Effigy

[Zorniborni]

This looks very promising, especially the first and second mode.

Few questions (as I recently picked up the deck in paper/legacy overall). What makes you go 4PE and 4OA instead of the previous 3 (and ditching removal like mire/soul transfer). Do you really think shadowspear maindeck without retrofitter foundry in main gives you enough creatures? I´d imagine it´s a dead draw, if you draw it, quite sometimes? Do you think 3 Black Market Connections instead of shadospear would be too much?

And cheers for sharing all the info! :)

[Reeplcheep]

This looks very promising, especially the first and second mode.

Few questions (as I recently picked up the deck in paper/legacy overall). What makes you go 4PE and 4OA instead of the previous 3 (and ditching removal like mire/soul transfer). Do you really think shadowspear maindeck without retrofitter foundry in main gives you enough creatures? I´d imagine it´s a dead draw, if you draw it, quite sometimes? Do you think 3 Black Market Connections instead of shadospear would be too much?

And cheers for sharing all the info! :)

The thought was I wanted more creatures for shadowspear. Deathtouch + trample is really good at finishing off planeswalkers. It might not be correct.

Black market connections also provides creatures, and that is what we really want the lifelink for. I do want a Retrofitter but I am unsure what to cut, and also don’t want too many maindeck 1 drops.

[ronco]

Took a near copy of reeplcheep's latest twitter list to a weekly last sunday (pre-black market connections - Can't find the list in a quick search but I have it saved on my phone, also minus 1 brittle effigy and +1 plague engineer)

While the deck seems straightforward in what it wants to do, I clearly need to learn the meta much more to really grasp the sideboarding and timing/ordering of spells.

round 1 vs 8cast
G1 OTP they dump their hand early casting 0cc, and I get down a Karn, use karn to get an artifact land and eventually a bridge to buy myself some time. he has no answer so concedes to game two. Opponent makes a mistake in reminding me that mire in misery can cause them to sac urza's saga. Boarded in more mire in misery but don't recall what I took out, maybe leylines (which might have been a mistake due to Emry - i forget about that card).

G2 OTD I mull to 5. I'm not able to do much this game as his saga out paces my removal.

G3 OTP Should have lost this game but opp punted hard. He had his turtles out beating me down with them while I had a construct and a single sudden edict. I'm on potentially my last turn so I play my outs and attack into his equally sized turtle that is untapped. If he lets it through he wins on the clap back next turn, but he blocks and trades, allowing me to edict his other creature. This buys me time to get Karn, bridge and eventually lattice for the win.

2-1 / 1-0

round 2 vs UW delver (delver + SFM package, at least I don't think there was any red in the deck)
G1 OTP - I take lots of tomb damage but manage to land a chalice on 1 and a 3 ball. Believe I got him with curses this game. Boarded in opposition agents for the SFM and fetches, dont recall what I removed, probably hagra mauling.
G2 OTD - I don't have any notes but I think this one went similar to the first game, except he got a flipped delver to go along with my tombs and I die quickly to a mix of my own self inflicted damage and 3/turn. I put the opposition agents back in the side and return the deck to G1 status.
G3 OTP - Opp mull to 6, keeps a hand of 3 forces, cantrips, and a wasteland. In turns 1-3 he forces curse of leeches, retro foundry, and ensnaring bridge. He eventually lands a delver when he top decks a land and is able to get the rest of the way with reinforcements after i run out of things to stop him.

3-3 / 1-1

Round 3 vs reanimator
G1 OTD - mulled to 6 to find a T0 leyline (advantages of knowing what other people are on, i guess? Hopefully that isn't cheating but it does feel a little unfair). I quickly Karn into helm for the win.
G2 OTD - T0 leyline again, and he obviously boards in his enchantment removal. I get a 3 ball down early to buy time, then karn lock him with the liquimetal coating while I swing in with constructs. 3 ball was crucial here as he got stuck on 3 lands and it slowed him down enough that he was able to deal with the leyline but spending 3 to loot bought me a turn to start picking off his lands.

5-3 / 2-1
Round 4 vs Bant Uro.
G1 OTP - Land an early chalice on 1, follow up with 3ball and then swing in with constructs. Didn't see much of his deck so not exactly sure what to do on here.
G2 OTD - Mull to 6 keping 2 tombs (bottoming a city). The 2 tombs are too much damage to take and in hindsight i should have kept a city. On my last turn, I was low enough on life to take a hit from endurance and not be able to cast anything, but had I kept a city I'd have had a turn to play my top deck (don't remember what it was) and protect myself. So misplay before the game even started for me there.
G3 OTP - Mull to 6. I see Serenity to deal with my curse of misfortunes and first curse I fetch up with it. He manages to land a court of grace on an empty board (didn't expect that) and I can't keep up with the tokens or monarch. game is over quickly after that.

6/5, 2-2 overall. Meta was diverse considering there were only 10 players. Definitely need to get more familiar with the current legacy decks to really understand how to maximize the chalice on 1 vs waiting for chalice on 2 instead (or 0, or not at all). I've noticed in the sideboard guide at the top here that often times chalice or leylines are boarded out and it doesn't make sense to me (not saying it's wrong, I just don't understand this matchups yet) so most games were with an unsideboarded deck or close to it.

List since I couldnt fine the link:
4 chome mox
4 tomb
3 city
4 dark rit
4 saga
2 urborg
7 swamp
2 hagra mauling
1 takenuma
4 edict
3 3ball
4 leyline otv
4 chalice
1 mire in misery
4 karn
4 curse of misfortune
4 standard curse targets
1 retro foundry


board
3 oppo agent
4 plague engineer
1 vault of whispers
1 needle
1 coating
1 bridge
1 helm
1 lattice
2 mire in misery

( I think that covers the deck)

[Reeplcheep]

Thanks for the report!


Took a near copy of reeplcheep's latest twitter list to a weekly last sunday (pre-black market connections - Can't find the list in a quick search but I have it saved on my phone, also minus 1 brittle effigy and +1 plague engineer)

While the deck seems straightforward in what it wants to do, I clearly need to learn the meta much more to really grasp the sideboarding and timing/ordering of spells.

The deck is definitely really punishing and it takes more experience than it appears. However you went against some of the best and most popular decks, and went 50% which is nothing to sneeze at.

I haven’t gotten any connections testing in so I haven’t posted a real list with it. The mire was due to seeing a lot of serenity and sagas online at the time. You could play some other flex removal slot in its place if you aren’t seeing many enchantments.



G3 OTP - Opp mull to 6, keeps a hand of 3 forces, cantrips, and a wasteland. In turns 1-3 he forces curse of leeches, retro foundry, and ensnaring bridge. He eventually lands a delver when he top decks a land and is able to get the rest of the way with reinforcements after i run out of things to stop him.

I think you played well here. Forcing 1 drops and 3 drops is exactly what you him to do. The 19 mana source deck drawing lands before the 28 mana source deck is just bad beats. What did you replace the agents with G3? Why did you bring them in G2?


I've noticed in the sideboard guide at the top here that often times chalice or leylines are boarded out and it doesn't make sense to me (not saying it's wrong, I just don't understand this matchups yet) so most games were with an unsideboarded deck or close to it.

Chalice is primarily sided out vs vial & stompy decks. In both cases dark ritual is one of your best cards and the opponent has few relevant 1 drops for chalice to hit. A lot of the same rules apply to Trinisphere, except Trinisphere is also bad vs land based decks.
This version treats Leyline as a Blood Moon rather than a Emrakul. In a more combo focused version with multiple MD helms you wouldn’t side them out ever. But here if it doesn’t affect the opponent you probably have better cards to bring in.

[ronco]

I think you played well here. Forcing 1 drops and 3 drops is exactly what you him to do. The 19 mana source deck drawing lands before the 28 mana source deck is just bad beats. What did you replace the agents with G3? Why did you bring them in G2?

I brought them in as a gotcha for the Stoneforge Mystics that he was running, and for maybe stifle a fetch if nothing else. I didn't see them at all in game 2 and decided to put them back for game 3. I can't remember off the top of my head what I swapped them for, maybe the leylines? I was hesitant to pull those out as that removed a potential win con with helm, but i think that is what I did anyway. Game 3 I just went back to the original 60.



Chalice is primarily sided out vs vial & stompy decks. In both cases dark ritual is one of your best cards and the opponent has few relevant 1 drops for chalice to hit. A lot of the same rules apply to Trinisphere, except Trinisphere is also bad vs land based decks.
This version treats Leyline as a Blood Moon rather than a Emrakul. In a more combo focused version with multiple MD helms you wouldn’t side them out ever. But here if it doesn’t affect the opponent you probably have better cards to bring in.

I had to read that a few times but I think I get what you are saying (its a tool, not a haymaker). It makes sense. I'll keep practicing, I can see how people are doing well with this deck. It seems just about everything it plays that isn't removal is a must answer. I saw 2 serenities as well, so it will be something to keep in mind for future matchups. Thanks for the feedback!

[Reeplcheep]

Against stoneblade it does make more sense. I would not have gone back to the 60, I would almost always side out karn against delver even if they aren’t running bolt.



I had to read that a few times but I think I get what you are saying (its a tool, not a haymaker). It makes sense. I'll keep practicing, I can see how people are doing well with this deck. It seems just about everything it plays that isn't removal is a must answer. I saw 2 serenities as well, so it will be something to keep in mind for future matchups. Thanks for the feedback!
Perhaps emrakul was a bad example but you got the gist of it. In this build it is a md prison piece primarily, not a combo piece. A combo piece you would always keep in for consistentcy, but a prison piece you want to aggressively side out when it is not relevant if possible.

Dark ritual + Ancient tomb is ludicrous amount of mana, and between saga/karn/curse you have 12 1 card comboes to pour all that mana into. The combination of extremely explosive draws and awesome comebacks is addicting imo. But you are trying to resolve 5 mana enchantments in legacy, which is why it isn’t tier 1 or anything.

[ronco]

Took the same list to the same weekly (at end for reference). I think I played better, still plenty to learn. Took better notes so here it is. Just like last time there were 10 of us but I saw all different decks.

R1 vs Jeffrey on.... OG Karn TCG build with cloudposts, TKS, Ugins, grim monoliths, etc.
G1 on the play: I thought he was on mono red prison so I opened with t1 trinisphere. He comes back with a t3 karn and grabs a Lattice from the board. I land a curse of leeches hoping I can ride that one, but he drops his lattice then follows up with a 6 mana ugin from War of the Spark to easily handle the curse before I can deal with Karn.
SB out: 3 ball, chalice, in: all my creatures.
G2 on the play, mull to 6: Start with a t0 leyline, then get a turn 2 karn, grabbing the liquimetal coating, which i deploy t3 and keep him off enough cloud posts to do anything and he concedes. I kept this initially for the helm/leyline combo but it ended up working out in other ways.
G3 on the draw, mulled to 5, he mulled to 6. He has a god hand and gets a turn 1 karn with some sol lands, grim monolith into manifold key. fetches up lattice and I pray he doesn't have another mana source. Next turn he untaps and can't play it (but is able to get a thran dynamo out because why not). I land a curse of leeches t2 and hope that gets me there this time. Spoiler, it doesn't. He has the same ugin to answer it and lock me out with lattice.

Not much I can do in this one, he's just faster with the artifacts and I couldn't mull into anything faster than what I had. It was basically a race to the Karn in this matchup.
1-2 / 0-1

R2 vs Lucas on Green Post.
G1 On the draw, we both mull to 6. He opens up with a t1 needle on wasteland, so I now know he is on some kind of lands deck. Doesn't matter, I quickly get a karn out and liquimetal coating and eat his only forest which he needed to do things.
I sided out 3 balls and brought in opposition agent. I left in chalice for all his tutors (maps, reclaimer, crop rot). I feel like i brought in mire in misery but I can't think what i would have taken out. I def left in leylines for the reclaimer, but maybe that was overkill?
G2 on the draw, he mulls to 6. Bit of a longer game here. T1 he Once Upon a Time's for a 10 mana ulamog. next turn he goes to tutor off an expedition map and i flash in a opposition agent to take his only dark depths (he had 2 posts already so i figured taking one of those wasn't going to do much, and i think he only had one depths in the deck so that was just one less threat to worry about). This also cut him off a fetch he hasn't played yet. While getting in for chip damage, I build the board up to opposition agent, curse of misfortunes, and overwhelming splendor (knowing he was going to exile a couple of things with Ulamog). Unfortunately for him I had a mire in my hand and a backup curse of misfortunes. He leaves the oppo agent and takes the two curses. Next turn i easily deal with ulamog and then redeploy the curse. I chipped down to 6 in the mean time with agent so he was done after that shortly.

This particular matchup felt pretty good, but it may have just been one off luck. We played another pre-sideboard game for fun and I won fairly quickly again.
3-2 / 1-1.

R3 vs Morgan on D&T.
G1 on the play. I have the choice of a t1 3ball or curse of leeches. I choose leeches and while i think it kinda won me the game, I think 3 ball was the much better play blind. Wound up being a misplay that didn't come back to bite me. He opens with a t1 vial, I let the curse flip next turn. He hard casts SFM to fetch up an equipment after tickign vial to 1. I mire next turn to deal with the SFM and then chalice on 1 while he is tapped out. He concedes showing me the 3 STP he had in his hand.
SB out Chalice, 3 ball, bringing in the creatures.
G2 On the draw I mull to 6. Once again i lead off with a t1 leeches. It flips quickly and I follow up with a saga which meets the new white March card form Kamigawa. I end up getting a curse of misfortunes out and get the death's hold/overwhelming splendor out over the next couple turns while the 4/4 lifelinker does work.

5-2 / 2-1.

R4 vs Andrew on UR Delver (Or at least, I never saw a delver, but had everything else. DRC, Shredder, Murktide, iteration, etc)
G1 on the play, we both mull to 6. I open with a chalice on 1 that resolves followed by a saga and he concedes.
SB nothing. I didn't really think anything would improve upon being taken out.

G2 on the draw. Ate 2 early wastelands, one on a tomb and one on a saga, before having a karn get forced. Started coming back only to get hit by another wasteland. He lands a murktide which i edict off a lucky topdeck, but the 3/3 DRC just chips away and that's all she wrote.

SB nothing still.
G3 on the play. T0 leyline which did a lot of work in here. My t1 retro foundry got forced, then had my Karn get dazed which was a punt on my part. In my hand before I drew it I have Chrome mox, Curse of death's hold, and some other black card (extra leyline maybe) in hand with 4 mana available. My plan was to play the chrome mox to get to 5 mana and be able to hard cast some things. I top deck the karn and get excited and immediately play it out with out getting the mox out first. Eats a daze. Damn. It might have worked out ok in the end. I draw another karn off the top and it gets forced. I eventually stick a chalice on 1 and then next turn I was able to get the curse of death's hold to resolve which kept his board pretty empty. At this point its going to be a game of attrition and be a matter of if I can out draw threats before he draws counters. I use Takenuma to get my Karn back and third time's a charm, he sticks. I go for the helm finish, helm gets forced. He lands a ledger shredder which can't attack for anything yet but can give him some filtering. I may have made another mistake by ticking up karn a couple turns while I kept it away from a ledger shredder range (as he has lots of cantrips) and that stalling may have given him enough time to dig, which I meant to ask but forgot. Anyway I gave him 2 turns to beef up karn a bit and wish for a lattice. Cast the lattice taking myself down to 5, it resolves but he floats mana and bounces it with brazen borrower, casts the borrower to trigger the shredder, gets it up to 1 power with the ability. Then next turn he price of progresses me down to one and hits with the now-1-power-shredder. It was very close in my opinion. I don't know if better play would have actually won, but it felt very winnable either way.

My worry with waiting on Karn was that he would get attacked and then lattice wouldn't matter. Wishing as early as possible would have put karn down to 1 and if he had a way to connive on my turn, I would have essentially put myself out of the game. So maybe it wasn't the worst play, but with a tight cantripping deck like his, any time I give them makes me uneasy. In hindsight, landing a lattice would have forced him to play 2 spells in response or after floating mana, which he might not have been able to do. After typing/thinking out loud it might have been better to go for it and force him to have it.

6-4 / 2-2

Overall I am happy with how I played, given the misplays I think i made above and acknowledged. Still not comfortable pulling the leylines out, but I think in 2 matchups they were needed (post and delver), and the others I didn't have anything better to bring in since all my non-artifacts came in, or nearly all of them did. I will leave this sleeved up but will probably take something ridiculous next time in manaless dredge or nic fit. Gotta keep people on their toes! Mires did well today, and I got to steal some stuff with opposition agent so that was fun. First time doing that.

4 chome mox
4 tomb
3 city
4 dark rit
4 saga
2 urborg
7 swamp
2 hagra mauling
1 takenuma
4 edict
3 3ball
4 leyline otv
4 chalice
1 mire in misery
4 karn
4 curse of misfortune
4 standard curse targets
1 retro foundry


board
3 oppo agent
4 plague engineer
1 vault of whispers
1 needle
1 coating
1 bridge
1 helm
1 lattice
2 mire in misery

[FTW]

Reeplcheep, are you still playing this?

Dauthi/Helm seems to have taken over as the dominant black stompy. Can't tell if that's due to better metagame positioning or just lack of Reeplcheep playing Curses lately.

https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/legacy-challenge-2022-10-3012489853#deck_wordy333

//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
6 Swamp
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

//Artifacts: 7
4 Chrome Mox
0 Chalice of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience

//Enchantments: 4
4 Leyline of the Void

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Spells: 8
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize

//Creatures: 17
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Opposition Agent
4 Rotting Regisaur
4 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Plague Engineer
3 Sudden Edict


Less control, more beatdown and combo.

[FTW]

@Reeplcheep: Are you still playing Curses? Have you tried out Black Initiative creatures?

Example

//Mana: 28
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
2 Hagra Mauling

//Prison: 11
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

//Control: 8
4 Sudden Edict
4 Opposition Agent

//WinCons: 13
4 Passageway Seer
4 Ravenloft Adventurer
4 Karn, the Great Creator
1 From the Catacombs

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Sarevok's Tome
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Plague Engineer
3 Phyrexian Crusader


Edit:
The maindeck is already so strong against combo: Leyline, Chalice, 3ball, Karn, Opposition Agent.
So the MDFC land and SB are geared towards fair creatures. Crusader beats Initiative creatures from both white & red, dodges removal from Delver/UWr/4c, and has favorable combat vs generic 3/3s and 3/4s (1/1 or 1/2 fails to kill 2/2).

vs White Initiative: +3 Crusader, +2 Plague, +Virtue's Ruin, +Deluge, +Skysovereign, -8 Prison
vs Red Stompy: +3 Crusader, +2 Plague, +Deluge, +Skysovereign, +Ratchet, +Tome, +Vault, -10 Prison
vs Elves: +2 Plague, +Deluge, +Ratchet, -4 Leyline
vs Delver: +3 Crusader, +Helm, -4 Karn (maybe also +2 Plague, +Ratchet, +Vault, -4 fast mana)
vs D&T: +3 Crusader, +2 Plague, +Virtue's Ruin, +Deluge, +Ratchet, -4 Leyline, -4 other
vs Storm: +2 Plague, +Ratchet, +Tome, -4 Edict

[Reeplcheep]

No I’ve basically quit magic.

I think other people have tried this

[FTW]

This Black Initiative List made the 5-0 dump: https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/legacy-league-2023-01-07#deck_OnlyLandsDotCom

//Mana: 28
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
7 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Agadeem's Awakening

//Creatures: 12
4 Opposition Agent
4 Passageway Seer
4 Vicious Battlerager

//DauthiHelm: 15
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Helm of Obedience

//Other Disruption: 5
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Pithing Needle
1 The Stone Brain
2 Plague Engineer
2 Sudden Edict
2 Tourach, Dread Cantor
2 Nemesis Trap


The list looks cool. But there isn't really any synergy between the Dauthi-Helm engine and the Initiative subgame. Drawing Dauthi-Helm pieces doesn't help win the Initiative. Gaining the Initiative doesn't help assemble Dauthi+Helm, and all the aggro damage is rendered obsolete if you ever hit the 2-card mill kill. A+B combos add more variance to a deck that already has 1-card wincons.

I wonder if the list would be improved by cutting Dauthi-Helm and doubling down on Initiative. White Initiative uses tech like Evoke elementals for modal tempo/CA. It also uses removal and flicker effects to win the Initiative subgame. Black could do similar tricks while still maintaining good disruption against random decks.


Possible Build

//Mana: 29
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Malakir Rebirth
5 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
1 Castle Locthwain

//Creatures: 22
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Opposition Agent
4 Passageway Seer
4 Vicious Battlerager
4 Grief
4 Shriekmaw

//Spells: 9
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sudden Edict
1 From the Catacombs

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Plague Engineer
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor


Shriekmaw is there for the same reason Solitude is so good in White. Removal helps win the Initiative, it has synergy with flicker effects (Malakir Rebirth), and it's a premium target to hit off the dungeon ultimate. This slot could just be maindeck Plague Engineer instead, but Shriekmaw looks promising.

Most of the creatures have card advantage. Most of the creatures have evasion (Menace, Fear, Shadow, -5 life), which helps win Initiative.

Malakir Rebirth is tech to double up on ETB triggers and protect from removal, like Touch the Spirit Realm/Ephemerate. Agadeem's Awakening looks too slow to be impactful as a spell. Rebirth's spell side is valuable more often, though entering tapped is a big penalty.

Edit: It's also possible to make a version with Cavern of Souls on Rogue:
Dauthi Voidwalker
Opposition Agent
Ravenloft Adventurer

[FTW]

Black Initiative (or WB) looks promising as players run cards like Snuff Out, Unchained Berserker, and Archon of Absolution to beat mono W.

[z0anthr0pe]

I'm tempted to buy into initiative of some kind. The price rise of seasoned dungeoneer was staggering, shows that many people must have bought into W stompy. I'm a bit worried WoTC will ban something. I have a history of buying playsets and then having them banned (I'm looking at you Ragavan, who was the most recent one). I suppose the black cards would be less likely to be nerfed?

[FTW]

They might just errata the whole mechanic like they did with Companion. These new broken mechanics tend to be short-term cash grabs, then they ban it once they capitalized all their print run.

[Clark Kant]

I wanted to modify the list Thraben U played recently ( https://www.moxfield.com/decks/-yLbdLoB10qyNprHf_21DQ ) to be closer to Black Initiative Stompy and utilize the Initiative threats that are only available in paper…

//Mana
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Agadeem's Awakening // Agadeem, the Undercrypt
4 Dark Ritual

//Core
4 Animate Dead
4 Reanimate
3 Grief
4 Thoughtseize
4 Rotting Regisaur

//Transformational Sideboard
4 Entomb
3 Exhume
2 Buried Alive
2 Archon of Cruelty
2 Atraxa, Grand Unifier
1 Griselbrand
1 Shriekmaw

SIDEBOARD:
4 Ravenloft Adventurer
4 Passageway Seer
3 Opposition Agent
3 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
1 Shriekmaw

The basic premise is to swap the 15 cards listed above for Game 2, thereby invalidating whatever graveyard hate your opponent sides in. Against any deck that plays creatures, the Reanimates and Animate Deads can be utilized to get threats from your opponents yard (that you made them discard with Grief or Thoughtseize or killed with Shriekmaw) even if your own yard is exiled with a Leyline of the Void.

The things I’m uncertain of…

1. The slight antisynergy between Buried Alive and Rotting Regisaur. Is the silver bullet aspect of Buried Alive worth playing fewer Regisaur targets? I could easily replace Buried Alive with 2 more Archons. Would it make sense to play some the Collective Brutality or the 4th Opposition Agent, the 4th Shelodred or a couple of Dauthi Voidwalkers in place of Grief or Regisaur? The former could prove clutch vs combo decks. Or perhaps I should find a way to maindeck some Initiative threats to free up room in the board for these anticombo options in the board?

2. Shriekmaw vs. Snuff Out vs. Shelodred’s Edict vs. Sudden Edict? Each has its own pros and cons. I went with Shriekmaw assuming that the nonblack aspect of Shriekmaw is mostly irrelevant and the ability to reanimate Shriekmaw will come in handy against all the Delver and Initiative decks seeing play.

3. Are the 4cc Initiative threats so good that they warrant 8 sideboard slots instead of cheaper hate cards like Dauthi Voidwalker, some Plague Engineer or Edicts and the 4th Opposition Agent?

4. Am I wasting my time trying out Initiative decks? Wizards is just going to ban White Plume Adventurer and call it a day right? They wont neuter the 4cc Initiative threats by banning the Initiative mechanic altogether will they?

What would you change in the list I posted?

[FTW]

Iggy Helm by Thraben U: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgq6Gfe11Hg


//Mana: 23
3 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
10 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire

//Spells: 8
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize

//Creatures: 15
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Opposition Agent
4 Plague Engineer
3 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse

//4cmc Combo: 14
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Ill-Gotten Gains

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sudden Edict
2 Toxic Deluge

[FTW]

The One Ring might push this archetype over the top with card advantage and protection. This shell accelerates to big mana better than the other colors due to Dark Ritual.

LOTR Helm


//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
2 Agadeem's Awakening
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire

//Acceleration: 8
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

//Creatures: 14
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
3 Opposition Agent
3 Grief

//Prison: 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void

//Big Haymakers: 10
4 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Helm of Obedience
3 The One Ring

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Helm of Obedience
1 The One Ring
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Plague Engineer
3 Sudden Edict
1 Grief
1 Opposition Agent
2 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse


Bowmasters and The One Ring in the same deck? Turn 1 Bowmaster traps??

[FTW]

Lowling Mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eer_AWA-ywU


//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
11 Swamp
4 Urza's Saga

//Acceleration: 8
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal

//Creatures: 16
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Opposition Agent
4 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse

//Combo: 8
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience

//Other Spells: 4
4 Thoughtseize

//Other Artifacts: 4
1 Basilisk Collar
3 Howling Mine

//Sideboard: 15
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sudden Edict
2 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Plague Engineer
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


Howling Mine is funny with Bowmasters and Sheoldred.

Basilisk Collar on Bowmasters leads to deathtouch pinging.

Thraben U brings up the valid point that now monoblack finally has enough playables that the Helm combo doesn't necessarily need to be the main focus at 15 slots. It could be cut back significantly to make room for other playables like Grief scamming. I found that tension in my above decklist: it really wants 4 Opposition Agent + 4 Grief + 2 Sheoldred main, but there isn't space. Maybe the combo slots can finally be trimmed.

If trimming combo slots, I'd trim the Helms before Karns. Helm is the worst card on its own. Karn can do a lot on its own. Karn consumes more mana and tempo, but it's the least bad on its own if you get disrupted or draw poorly. Leyline is the next worst draw, but at least it pitches to Mox and Grief and hates on many top decks. The one nice thing about trimming Karn is gaining a lot of SB space to devote to fair creature removal.

[ronco]

I don't have anything to add here but I am loving the new brews you are sharing. Just wanted to let you know you aren't posting into the void (walker) lol.

[FTW]

I don't have anything to add here but I am loving the new brews you are sharing. Just wanted to let you know you aren't posting into the void (walker) lol.

Thanks for the positive feedback!

[Captain Hammer]

[QUOTE=FTW;1104716]Lowling Mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eer_AWA-ywU


//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
11 Swamp
4 Urza's Saga

//Acceleration: 8
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal

//Creatures: 16
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Opposition Agent
4 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse

//Combo: 8
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience

//Other Spells: 4
4 Thoughtseize

//Other Artifacts: 4
1 Basilisk Collar
3 The One Ring

//Sideboard: 15
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sudden Edict
2 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Plague Engineer
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn


The video did a great job showing that Howling Mine is too cute by half but the deck is otherwise solid. So I made one small change, I swapped The One Ring into the Howling Mine slots.

B Collar is awesome against aggro but meh against combo and control decks. I wonder if the deck should have another 1c Saga Target, one thats good against combo or control.

Control is this decks achielles heel as control has the tools to answer or prevent your turn one play and once you’re out of gas, you’re in grind mode and they will quickly outpace you. Even a Relic of Progenitus is better for the card draw alone. But Retrofitter and that new one a bunch of saga decks are playing also work. I feel like the deck is pretty close to perfect otherwise.

[FTW]

Yeah overall it looks like the archetype has legs. Monoblack finally has enough fair playables.

The worst cards in his build are the Howling Mines, Basilisk Collar, and the 1 Lotus Petal (probably better as Mox for permanent mana source). Cut the Mines and it looks more playable.

Nihil Spellbomb is a good value Saga target. Worst case it cycles. Decks that run Relic would play Spellbomb if they had 11 swamps.

I'd try to squeeze in room for a couple Griefs if you can. The discard and 2-for-1 should improve combo and control matchups, while Thoughtseize is pretty bad against control unless using it specifically to protect a fast Helm combo.

I wonder in maindeck Chalice would punish more control & combo than maindeck Thoughtseize does. Thoughtseize was primarily to protect the HelmLine combo, but as that gets cut down in favor of fair threats, the need for 1-mana discard also goes down.

Edit: What if you build in Anvil of Bogardan+Chains of Mephistopheles as the combo instead of HelmLine? These pieces synergize better with the Bowmasters cheesiness and occupy a better spot on the mana curve, allowing you to play fewer Sol Lands and more black sources.

CantripHate.dec


//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
7 Swamp
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
4 Agadeem's Awakening

//Acceleration: 8
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

//Creatures: 19
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Opposition Agent
4 Grief
3 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse

//Other Permanents: 12
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Anvil of Bogardan
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 The One Ring

//Other Spells: 1
1 From the Catacombs

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
1 The One Ring
2 Plague Engineer
2 Sudden Edict
2 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Ratchet Bomb


The One Ring, Agadeem's Awakening, and From the Catacombs should really improve the grinding ability of the deck.

Anvil helps refuel if the first wave is shut down and then combos with Bowmasters, Sheoldred, or Chains. Chains hates on the draw in control and combo decks, then locks out the lategame with Anvil. From the Catacombs doubles as a lifeline if you accidentally Chains+Anvil lock both players: you can Escape it with the milled cards, return a milled creature, and win with Initiative!

I have no idea if the Anvil+Chains thing is good enough. In matchups where its bad you can board into Helm-Line or fair interactions.

Otherwise maybe you don't durdle with Anvils and just play fair threats with a trimmed down Helm-Line.

LessCheese.dec

//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
6 Swamp
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire
4 Agadeem's Awakening

//Acceleration: 8
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

//Creatures: 20
4 Orcish Bowmasters
3 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Opposition Agent
4 Grief
3 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
2 Shriekmaw

//Other Permanents: 12
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Karn, the Great Creator

//Sideboard: 15
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinisphere
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 The One Ring
2 Plague Engineer
2 Sudden Edict
2 Sheoldred's Edict


This version aims to minimize maindeck draws that "do nothing" (Helm, land, Howling Mine, conditional Saga target).

This maindeck should be better against combo: Chalice, Karn, Grief, Oppo Agent.
The One Ring adds more protection and gas against combo and control.
Slowrolling the 2-for-1 creatures should add a lot of value against control, then you get to bring them back from the grave for more value. Maybe that will help grind.

[dte]

I wouldn't go anvil+chains, but if you do, from the catacombs sounds bad: not good without lock, and requires 5 manas to do something, while you can't build mana under lock.

I would rather play darkblast: dredge is a replacement effect, so you can keep "drawing" any card of your deck by discarding darkblast. It also kills opposing orcs, who are a beating if you want to play anvil, and a few other things.

But ideally, none of those cards :)

[Captain Hammer]

I think its time this deck adopted the Grief/Reanimate/Troll/Rotting Regisaur package.

It dodges a ton of the hate that hits the Karn/Helm/Anvil/Chains/Chalice packages.


//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Agadeem's Awakening
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire

//Acceleration: 7
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

//Creatures: 25
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Opposition Agent
4 Grief
3 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
3 Troll of Khazad
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
2 Rotting Regisaur
2 Shriekmaw
1 Plague Engineer

//Other: 10
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
2 The One Ring
1 Trinisphere

[Clark Kant]

I think its time this deck adopted the Grief/Reanimate/Troll/Rotting Regisaur package.

It dodges a ton of the hate that hits the Karn/Helm/Anvil/Chains/Chalice packages.


//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Agadeem's Awakening
1 Takenuma, Abandoned Mire

//Acceleration: 7
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

//Creatures: 25
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Opposition Agent
4 Grief
3 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse
3 Troll of Khazad
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
2 Rotting Regisaur
2 Shriekmaw
1 Plague Engineer

//Other: 10
4 Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize
2 The One Ring
1 Trinisphere


Thraben U played a similar list recently…

https://youtu.be/j7epZL5jRvg?si=omr4Rgq3LeJBH_6a

Begs the question, why devote a dozen slots to a slow and fragile easily disrupted Helm+Leyline+questionable cards like Palantir to help find these fragile combo pieces? Other combo decks are much faster, we cant race them unless we can disrupt them first.

So why not just fill those leyline helm palantir slots with hate bears, the disruptive (troll, reanimate, grief) combo and rely on undercosted beatsticks like Rotting Regisaur and Reanimated Trolls to close out the game only a turn or two slower than the Helm combo.

That way we are not trying to do two things at once, instead all of our win conditions would double as disruptive elements to stop faster combo decks.

But once youve cut both curses and helm, very little of the original deck remains and this instead looks closer to the original Demon Stompy lists.

[FTW]

The main reason to run the Helm combo is to pickup free wins against graveyard-based decks via maindeck Leyline, not to have the fastest combo. This is even better when fair decks depend on graveyard-based threats (DRC, Murktide, Uro, Emry) and weaker when they don't (Shadow, Bowmasters).

Helm and Curse are also strong choices when the fair meta is defined by Prismatic Ending (bad at interacting with 4+ cmc permanents) instead of Thoughtseize/Grief (good at interacting with slow combo pieces in hand) or Initiative/Monarch subgame (strong vs noncreatures). The recent meta shift makes the HelmLine combo less favorable and regular beatdown better. There are also now more playable black threats.

Is Regisaur necessary?

4 Voidwalker
4 Bowmasters
4 Oppo Agent
4 Grief
4 Troll
3 Sheoldred

4 Thoughtseize
4 Reanimate
4 Agadeem's Awakening
4 Ritual
X Sheoldred's Edict

That's already a strong core. Instead of Regisaur you could have the 4cmc Initiative creature or The One Ring at top end. I still like Shriekmaw as a 2-of. It works well with Reanimate, has a different CMC for Agadeem's Awakening, and Tomb decks can reasonably hardcast it.

[Captain Hammer]

Yes the recent meta shift makes the disrupt + beatdown plan better than the gravehate combo plan.

I have had issues with Voidwalker as a 4 of as my mana base has trouble with the BB cost early turns. So rather than risking multiples stuck in my hand, I prefer it as a 2 of with 2 more ready to bring in from the board against the matchups where graveyard hate matters. Similar logic for the 1 of Plague Engineer for Orcs etc.

Regisaur isnt needed but its very strong. A 7/6 for 2B is so much faster as a clock than a growing 2/2 lifelinker for 4, even with initiative. As a 2 of, its easy to time it after you empty your hand and at that point, theres basically no drawback. The ability to Reanimate discarded Shelodreds etc is also a cute trick.

[FTW]

Do you still need 3 City of Traitors?

Its main role is turn 1 Chalice (cut) and powering out the slow 4-5 cmc pieces. With Chalice cut, 3sphere down to 0-1 copy, the slower stuff cut (Karn, Helm, Leyline, Curses), and a good number of non-Sol turn 1 lines, why run that many Sol Lands?

Ritual, Mox, and Tomb should be enough acceleration for that threat curve. You could cut down to 1 City, go up to 4 Troll + 4 Mox (or another Swamp), and have more black sources.

Your current list is already at 14 turn 1 black sources (11 land + 3 Mox). Cycling Troll + Ritual should put you well into the territory of consistent BB.

[Captain Hammer]

I could potentially go down to 2 city but I think 3 is perfect number. Yes City is worth it, 90% of the spells are accelerated by City. It help cast a turn faster Troll, Shriekmaw, Oppo, Regisaur, Shriekmaw, Shelodred, Plague Engineer, The One Ring and Grief.

The only BB in the deck is Voidwalker, its not worth slowing the mana base down for the sake of playing one creature as a 4 of instead of as a 2 of.

If I had to cut a mana accelerant, I would cut a Chrome Mox before cutting City. Only because Chrome Mox is card disadvantage in a deck with very few ways to recoup card disadvantage.

Chrome Mox has lost me many games vs control decks running Prismatic Ending that 2 for 1 us. Chrome Mox is also useless as a top deck.

[Reeplcheep]

I’ve basically quit magic, but some thoughts on curses. There were two ideas behind the deck: dark ritual can be good in a fairish shell and expensive one card comboes are viable even in a fow/daze format. I feel like I successfully proved these points and a m happy of that accomplishment. However with modern power creep, monoB scam/helmline and initiative are better at those two points now, respectively.

thrabenU did do quite well with a suboptimal build of curses though (https://x.com/reeplcheep/status/1755713775515455590)

[FTW]

Your Curse version was imho the best version of Black Stompy in an earlier meta defined by cards like Oko, Uro, Pyroblast, and Prismatic Ending. Those decks really struggled to answer a resolved 4-5 cmc black enchantment, which made Curses & HelmLine particularly dangerous as the main combos. If they don't have the Force / Daze, you win.

The current meta has moved to Grief, Thoughtseize, Leyline Binding, Force of Vigor - unfortunately much better answers to slow black enchantments.

Spending multiple cards to accelerate a high cmc permanent that is difficult to answer (or at least answer at parity) was rare when you piloted Curses but now it's a pillar of the format (Initiative, Scam). So you did succeed there. The format has some variety instead of endless 1-for-1s.