Commander Legends Spoilers

[Ace/Homebrew]

Somebody F'ed up and spoilers are on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/j9zku8/cmr_new_commander_legends_spoilers_from_an_ebay/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[Mr. Safety]

Again? :confused:

[H]

Well, the previews were already supposed to have started, they pushed it back though.

[Cire]

Some text spoilers from MTGsally that caught my eye:

Court of Plenty 2GG
Enchantment (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, you become the monarch.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield. If you are the monarch, you may instead put a creature or a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.

Tormod the Graverobber 3B
Legendary Creature — Zombie Wizard (R)
Whenever one or more cards leave your graveyard, create a tapped 2/2 black Zombie creature token.
Partner
4/2

Reyav, Master Blacksmith RW
Legendary Creature — Dwarf Artificer (U)
Whenever a creature you control attacks, if it's enchanted or equipped, it gains double strike until end of turn.
2/2

[Barook]

The dwarf suffers from being RW, aka the shittiest two-color combination.

The zombie is interesting with repeatable GY removal. Doesn't it also combo with Loam? Dreding Loam makes Loam leave, casting Loam causes lands to leave the GY.

Court of Plenty seems pretty strong in some kind of green stompy shell with access to ESG, Chrome Mox and Sol lands. Drawing cards and then slamming fatties? Pretty damn strong in my books.

[Fox]

RW dude is worse than Path of Mettle, and the fact that the flip side of this card says “kill Emrakul” pretty much dictates the direction of a RW-heavy dude deck. The front side stops Elves, the other problem of any dude deck needs to answer.

[rufus]

...
The zombie is interesting with repeatable GY removal. Doesn't it also combo with Loam? Dreding Loam makes Loam leave, casting Loam causes lands to leave the GY.
..

Lots of stuff will work with it - self-reanimating creatures like Bloodghast/Narcomoeba/Arclight Phoenix/Vengevine, flashback cards like Cabal Therapy, dredgers like LftL, delve cards, and Crucible of Worlds if you're feeling silly. That said, it's got a big mana cost and it doesn't really seem to fit in well with the game plans of decks that run those cards, so it's not clear how it justifies a slot.

[Cire]

RW dude is worse than Path of Mettle, and the fact that the flip side of this card says “kill Emrakul” pretty much dictates the direction of a RW-heavy dude deck. The front side stops Elves, the other problem of any dude deck needs to answer.

The advantage is that this card can attack by itself instead of needing 2 other cards. Still dependent on the aura or equipment, but it can hit pretty hard on Turn 3 with some investment.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Again? :confused:

I know, just 8 threads below this one!

[Captain Hammer]

Some text spoilers from MTGsally that caught my eye:

Court of Plenty 2GG
Enchantment (R)
When ~ enters the battlefield, you become the monarch.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a land card from your hand onto the battlefield. If you are the monarch, you may instead put a creature or a land card from your hand onto the battlefield.


Wow!

My next deck will be playing some combination of...
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Once Upon a Time
3 Ponder
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Ice Fang Coatl
3 Uro, Titan of Nature’s Wrath
3 Show and Tell
3 Court of Plenty
3 Progenitus
4 Natural Order
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Ancient Tomb

Tempted to play some Shark Typhoon or Hydroid Krasis in the list.

[Watersaw]

Court of Plenty seems pretty strong in some kind of green stompy shell with access to ESG, Chrome Mox and Sol lands. Drawing cards and then slamming fatties? Pretty damn strong in my books.

I can see a few Enchantress builds trying it, it sustains Solitary Confinement on its own and in theory let's you get a free uncounterable Enchantress on the table. But it's pretty awful if you don't have anything else on the table.

[Barook]

I've just realized the zombie also works with Planar Void, as the cards actually hit the GY before they get exiled, unlike cards like RiP or Leyline.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I've just realized the zombie also works with Planar Void, as the cards actually hit the GY before they get exiled, unlike cards like RiP or Leyline.

Were people playing Desecrated Tomb before?

[ESG]

Were people playing Desecrated Tomb before?

Probably not, but Tormod will see plenty of play in EDH. I always liked Desecrated Tomb, but it didn't have a home before. Some of us were joking about using it in Four Horsemen. Tormod likely isn't good enough for Legacy, but it might be playable in something. I'll at least brew with it.

[Barook]

Court of Plenty seems pretty strong in some kind of green stompy shell with access to ESG, Chrome Mox and Sol lands. Drawing cards and then slamming fatties?
I've forgotten about Chancellor of the Tangle - it can increase your chance of a T1 Court, unless you have to use it on a Chrome Mox, also gives you decent fatty on T2. That's a pretty good synergy.

[Hanni]

I've forgotten about Chancellor of the Tangle - it can increase your chance of a T1 Court, unless you have to use it on a Chrome Mox, also gives you decent fatty on T2. That's a pretty good synergy.

Chancellor of the Annex seems pretty good too, actually. It gives you opening hand disruption that can then come into play with Court. You need a decent density of fatties to make the card good, and having fatties that can actually do something before you can trigger Court seems like a good idea. Maybe not.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Chancellor of the Annex seems pretty good too, actually. It gives you opening hand disruption that can then come into play with Court. You need a decent density of fatties to make the card good, and having fatties that can actually do something before you can trigger Court seems like a good idea. Maybe not.

Oops, all cancellors.

[kombatkiwi]

Wow!

My next deck will be playing some combination of...
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Once Upon a Time
3 Ponder
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Ice Fang Coatl
3 Uro, Titan of Nature’s Wrath
3 Show and Tell
3 Court of Plenty
3 Progenitus
4 Natural Order
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Ancient Tomb

Tempted to play some Shark Typhoon or Hydroid Krasis in the list.

This is a cute idea but you are extremely light on ways to protect the monarch so against a huge % of the format (not only aggro decks like delver but even random control deck with their own coatl) casting the 2GG enchantment means you are pretty fucked

It feels more like a sb card for green decks against creature-light matchups (e.g. for UG omni or maybe even something more conventional like maverick)
Enchantress can play it too maybe, more ways to protect yourself from combat damage.

[Barook]

New leaks (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/jd0dix/more_commander_legends_leaks_crude_translations/)

Most of the stuff is Commander-focused and thus uninteresting, but this one caught my eye:

War Cabinet
Land
T: Add C
3, T, Pay life equal to the amount of colors in your commander's color identity: Draw a card.

So how does this work? Can you use the card draw ability in Legacy or not? If so, that's a pretty powerful card.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

New leaks (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/jd0dix/more_commander_legends_leaks_crude_translations/)

Most of the stuff is Commander-focused and thus uninteresting, but this one caught my eye:

War Cabinet
Land
T: Add C
3, T, Pay life equal to the amount of colors in your commander's color identity: Draw a card.

So how does this work? Can you use the card draw ability in Legacy or not? If so, that's a pretty powerful card.

The Coward Eli Schiffren will spin the wheel and your guess is as good as mine if it comes up No: Unpayable costs, or Yes: Null refrence calculates to zero.

118.6. Some objects have no mana cost. This represents an unpayable cost. An ability can also have an unpayable cost if its cost is based on the mana cost of an object with no mana cost. Attempting to cast a spell or activate an ability that has an unpayable cost is a legal action. However, attempting to pay an unpayable cost is an illegal action.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

New leaks (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/jd0dix/more_commander_legends_leaks_crude_translations/)

Most of the stuff is Commander-focused and thus uninteresting, but this one caught my eye:

War Cabinet
Land
T: Add C
3, T, Pay life equal to the amount of colors in your commander's color identity: Draw a card.

So how does this work? Can you use the card draw ability in Legacy or not? If so, that's a pretty powerful card.

Woah, you missed the Flash Cascade Clone!
It's hard to tell in the picture but I think it's UUU and ETB as any other creature that ETB this turn, which means I can cast it, cascade into hypergenesis (or living end, if you're so inclined) and then it will resolve and can be an extra copy of whatever you just put into play.

[rufus]

Woah, you missed the Flash Cascade Clone!
It's hard to tell in the picture but I think it's UUU and ETB as any other creature that ETB this turn, which means I can cast it, cascade into hypergenesis (or living end, if you're so inclined) and then it will resolve and can be an extra copy of whatever you just put into play.

It's definitely 4UU in the picture which is a lot less interesting for cascade stuff. It also copies "any card" so it can hit stuff other than creatures, but the high casting cost makes the rest mostly irrelevant for competitive legacy.

[Captain Hammer]

Jeska's Will 2R
Sorcery
Add R mana equal to the number of cards in your opponents hand

Seems quite strong in Belcher and Mono Red Sneak Attack decks.

[ronco]

Jeska's Will 2R
Sorcery
Add R mana equal to the number of cards in your opponents hand

Seems quite strong in Belcher and Mono Red Sneak Attack decks.

Perhaps in Ruby Storm as well, esp after a wheel? Can be picked up with a wish as well and with a ruby out should be easy to cast.

[ronco]

Jeska's Will 2R
Sorcery
Add R mana equal to the number of cards in your opponents hand

Seems quite strong in Belcher and Mono Red Sneak Attack decks.


Perhaps in Ruby Storm as well, esp after a wheel? Can be picked up with a wish as well and with a ruby out should be easy to cast.


Actually, according to reddit there is more to this card.
Jeska's Will 2R
Sorcery (R)
Choose one. If you control a commander as you cast this spell, you may choose both.
• Add R for each card in target opponent's hand.
• Exile the top three cards of your library. You may play them this turn.

So it acts as 4 more copies of AoI or Seething song, depending on what is needed.

[Cire]

Court of Cunning 1UU
Enchantment (R)
When Court of Cunning enters the battlefield you become the monarch.
At the beginning of your upkeep choose a number of players, they each mill two cards. If you are the monarch, each of those players mills ten cards instead.

Sort of like this one, sort of want to play some type of prison deck where this is CA and win con in one.

[Barook]

Court of Cunning 1UU
Enchantment (R)
When Court of Cunning enters the battlefield you become the monarch.
At the beginning of your upkeep choose a number of players, they each mill two cards. If you are the monarch, each of those players mills ten cards instead.

Sort of like this one, sort of want to play some type of prison deck where this is CA and win con in one.
That one also caught my eye. I initially thought about mill decks, but since those barely run any creatures, thus losing the Monarch is quite likely. However, against decks with barely/no creatures, it's essentially a pseudo-legendary Phyrexian Arena with Awesome and additional upside.

Could this also slot into Replenish decks? Milling a good chunk of yourself with Replenish in hand doesn't seem too shabby, either, and it curves into Replenish.

[Cire]

That one also caught my eye. I initially thought about mill decks, but since those barely run any creatures, thus losing the Monarch is quite likely. However, against decks with barely/no creatures, it's essentially a pseudo-legendary Phyrexian Arena with Awesome and additional upside.

Could this also slot into Replenish decks? Milling a good chunk of yourself with Replenish in hand doesn't seem too shabby, either, and it curves into Replenish.

It's funny with Solitary Confinement. Monarch feeds the discard and Sanctuary protects monarch. Protecting together it puts opponent on 5-6 turn clock. Both are enchantments searchable with enlightened tutor and maybe hold a FOW or FON in hand, run oko/uro on the side because of course?

[aedemiel]

It's funny with Solitary Confinement. Monarch feeds the discard and Sanctuary protects monarch. Protecting together it puts opponent on 5-6 turn clock. Both are enchantments searchable with enlightened tutor and maybe hold a FOW or FON in hand, run oko/uro on the side because of course?

I would play that.

[Cire]

I would play that.

My best first hodgepodge of a draft:

3 Noble Hierarch
3 Ice-Fang Coatl
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Snapcaster Mage

2 Oko, Thief of Crowns

3 Solitary Confinement
3 Court of Cunning
1 Sylvan Library

4 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Pithing Needle

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Force of Negation
1 Veil of Summer
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Flusterstorm

4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra

[aedemiel]

I was thinking about adapting my Rip/Helm list.
I'm not so sure about green. I prefer mana stability. Sylvan Library is good but it's a no-mbo with Solitary Confinement.

[Barook]

It's funny with Solitary Confinement. Monarch feeds the discard and Sanctuary protects monarch. Protecting together it puts opponent on 5-6 turn clock. Both are enchantments searchable with enlightened tutor and maybe hold a FOW or FON in hand
This sounds pretty playable.

[rufus]

It's funny with Solitary Confinement. Monarch feeds the discard and Sanctuary protects monarch. Protecting together it puts opponent on 5-6 turn clock. Both are enchantments searchable with enlightened tutor and maybe hold a FOW or FON in hand, run oko/uro on the side because of course?

My thought was a "turbo-fog" approach with milling Moment's Peace into the GY, but that's got more holes than confinement does.

[FTW]

My thought was a "turbo-fog" approach with milling Moment's Peace into the GY, but that's got more holes than confinement does.

I read that as "turbo frog" and now miss Spore Frog-Survival of the Fittest decks

The Snowko value train might be the best fit. Even if you lose the Monarch, it still fuels Uro. If you do need to steal the Monarch back, flash flying 1/1s and hasted Rogue Elephant are a good way to get it back. You could go full control and use Propaganda and friends to prevent attacks but that seems mediocre.

Alternately, it could fit into EnBantress pretty well with Confinement lock and Replenish. They also have Estrid's Invocation to reset the Monarch.

I instantly want at least 1-copy in my UW RipField, where I was struggling to find a suitable enchantment-based draw engine and alternate wincon (e.g. vs Spyglass/Karn/Needle/Ouphe on Helm). ETutor finds the 1-of enchantment and Energy Field lock protects the Monarch token.

[aedemiel]

I instantly want at least 1-copy in my UW RipField, where I was struggling to find a suitable enchantment-based draw engine and alternate wincon (e.g. vs Spyglass/Karn/Needle/Ouphe on Helm). ETutor finds the 1-of enchantment and Energy Field lock protects the Monarch token.

My thought exactly, but the comment about Enchantress and Estrid's Invocation is relevant as well.

[Cire]

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/173/626/637393190601536514.jpg

The dream is to play this cast hymn and win the flip lmao

[BenBleiweiss]

Oh, this one - this one is spicy.

https://i.redd.it/x8dm8aai8gv51.jpg

I see a lot of applications for this in both Burn and Storm.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/173/626/637393190601536514.jpg

The dream is to play this cast hymn and win the flip lmao

This turns Lightning Bolt on average into RR: Deal 6

That's powerful.

[Cire]

This turns Lightning Bolt on average into RR: Deal 6

That's powerful.

But you're dealing with the uncertainty of the flip and the initial investment of 1R. Burn for example looks at what each mana spent produced in terms of damage (for example, Goblin Guide is R for about 6 points of damage). So looking at burn if you cast him turn 2 and get 3 burn spells out turn 3, that makes it an investment of 1R for an average of 4.5 points of damage - hardly game changing for Burn.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Without thumbs you should always be forced to lose flips/always flip tails (and therefore combo with mana clash)

[rufus]

The interaction with Dire Fleet Daredevil and other (non-flashback) stuff that casts from unexpected zones or casts opponents' spells is cute.

Raven's Crime seems pretty interesting. How much stuff like Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm that exiles spells is there?

[Mr. Safety]

If the spell is returned to your hand it doesn't resolve right? So it isn't a free buyback or Fork every time? Just so I understand how good this card really is...

[Watersaw]

I read that card 5 times wondering what the deal was before realizing it's not "whenever you flip a coil" but "whenever you cast a spell."

What the fuck



If the spell is returned to your hand it doesn't resolve right? So it isn't a free buyback or Fork every time? Just so I understand how good this card really is...

Oh okay good I thought we were gonna be seeing this replace YYoung Pyromancer in decks that still run it

[PirateKing]

If the spell is returned to your hand it doesn't resolve right? So it isn't a free buyback or Fork every time? Just so I understand how good this card really is...

A spell returned to your hand does not resolve. But it is cast and will trigger anything that cares about spells cast, Young Pyromancer & Prowess are all triggered regardless of the flip outcome.
I wouldn't figure it in any fair spellcasting deck, they'd rather have their spells plain old resolve rather than "double or nothing" as the flavor text accurately notes.
In average, this turns Lighting bolt from 3 damage for R into 6 damage for RR, cue confusedmathwoman.gif, that is a... Lightning Bolt. So nothing new. Burn would rather have more damage than new ways to maybe do the same damage as before. With Skewer the Critics we're pretty much all full up on 3 damage spells.

This does do complicated things to Dreadhorde Arcanist and similar, since the cast spell is exiled if it goes to the graveyard, so either it gets doubles on attack and exiled or goes back to your hand and not exiled.

[BenBleiweiss]

A spell returned to your hand does not resolve. But it is cast and will trigger anything that cares about spells cast, Young Pyromancer & Prowess are all triggered regardless of the flip outcome.
I wouldn't figure it in any fair spellcasting deck, they'd rather have their spells plain old resolve rather than "double or nothing" as the flavor text accurately notes.
In average, this turns Lighting bolt from 3 damage for R into 6 damage for RR, cue confusedmathwoman.gif, that is a... Lightning Bolt. So nothing new. Burn would rather have more damage than new ways to maybe do the same damage as before. With Skewer the Critics we're pretty much all full up on 3 damage spells.

This does do complicated things to Dreadhorde Arcanist and similar, since the cast spell is exiled if it goes to the graveyard, so either it gets doubles on attack and exiled or goes back to your hand and not exiled.

Even if it returns the spell to your hand, it also counts for things like Storm Count.

[Cire]

Would have been interesting if Gitaxian Probe was still around.

[FTW]

They're really making Commander on easy mode.

"Hey casual players, remember Krark is Thumbless. He needs Thumbs!" --> Krark's Thumb in 100% of lists

Otherwise it looks unplayable in Burn and Tempo, but it has some interesting interactions with the Prowess mechanic (and YP and Dreadhorde and Sprite Dragon). On average you still get 1 spell resolved per 1 mana spent (50% chance of nothing resolved, 50% chance of doubled), but because the card goes back to hand you end up getting more potential spell casts off the same number of cards, so you end up getting more triggers overall.

[rufus]

If the spell is returned to your hand it doesn't resolve right? So it isn't a free buyback or Fork every time? Just so I understand how good this card really is...

That's correct, but you're still spending twice the mana to get twice the spell on average, so it's not a free fork, but pretty close to paying for a fork effect on every spell that you're casting.

There are also potential ways to exploit the ability, though I haven't found any compelling ones. IICR spells that you don't own can't be returned to your hand, so it's got some synergy with effects like Dire Fleed Daredevil. Spells cast using madness get doubled or brought back to hand. Other people have already mentioned cast triggers like Jeskai Ascendancy.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

So what about manamorphose and all these red rituals. Sure its akward if you get stuck at the beginning but once you get going you should get more mana? And well alot more storm!

[ronco]

Actually, I think this is a terrible idea with Dire Fleet Daredevil. The new Krark says return the spell it it's owner's hand, not yours, so they get their spell back if the flip ends up against you.

[rufus]

Actually, I think this is a terrible idea with Dire Fleet Daredevil. The new Krark says return the spell it it's owner's hand, not yours, so they get their spell back if the flip ends up against you.

Yeah, I should read cards better.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The interaction with Dire Fleet Daredevil and other (non-flashback) stuff that casts from unexpected zones or casts opponents' spells is cute.

Raven's Crime seems pretty interesting. How much stuff like Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm that exiles spells is there?

For retrace there is nothing really complicated here. Instead of going back to the graveyard it would go to your hand, or it would double and stay in the graveyard. (You don't have to discard a second land: You already paid the costs!)
Knowlege Pool and Possibility Storm are a little more complicated:
For Pool, if you control both you can stack it so:
Pool resolves first, exiles the spell, and you cast a new one out of the Pool. If that new one is an instant or sorcery you trigger Krak again, and then that new spell either gets doubled or returned to your hand. (this is the same reason why tef3ri is a softlock with knowledge pool)
Then the original Krak trigger resolves. If you lose the flip, nothing happens. The spell is off the stack and Krak can't return it to your hand. If you win the flip you still get to copy it using the last known information. (Think Bonus Round)
Now if you do it in the other order, and resolve Krak first, you'll either win the flip, copy the spell, resolve the copy, exile the original into the pool, cast a new spell out of the pool, and trigger Krak again if it's an instant or sorcery. Or you'll lose the flip, return the spell to your hand. Put nothing into Knowlege pool, and not meet the "if you do" clause and cast nothing.
If you control only one of these, then you don't get a stacking choice, and they'll be stacked in ANAP order.
For possibility storm it's very similar:
If the storm resolves first, you get a new spell to trigger.
If the trigger resolves first, storm has no "if you do" clause, so you'll still do the possibility storm stuff and the original spell will be tucked in your hand and the new spell you storm into will trigger again.

[Fox]

Yeah so I'm not seeing the text on Khark where one of these things happens:
-lose the flip, put spell in yard
-may only cast 1 spell per turn
-tap, activate target spell you control does the coin flipping thing

This is going to be super great for competitive paper play where we really have to wonder about weighted dice/coins.

[Pittplayer]

Opposition Agent looks VERY legacy playable! And omg it combos with scheming symmetry! This and Maralen of the Mornsong pretty much locks your opponent out of the game! Magical Xmas land but.. T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Scheming Symmetry, respond to it with Dark Ritual into Opposition Agent, get Maralen of the Mornsong, T3 cast Maralen of the Mornsong, GG.

[Reeplcheep]

Opposition Agent looks VERY legacy playable! And omg it combos with scheming symmetry! This and Maralen of the Mornsong pretty much locks your opponent out of the game! Magical Xmas land but.. T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Scheming Symmetry, respond to it with Dark Ritual into Opposition Agent, get Maralen of the Mornsong, T3 cast Maralen of the Mornsong, GG.

Auto-Include in my deck. Absolutely destroys (like 3 for 1 or just straight up win the game) doomsday, goblin matron, recruiter of the guard, crop rotation, KOTR, stoneforge mystic, wishclaw talisman, or intuition. It also comboes very nicely with Field of Ruin. Destroy any of their lands, put a basic in play, put one of their basics into play as land for turn.

[Captain Hammer]

Opposition Agent looks VERY legacy playable! And omg it combos with scheming symmetry! This and Maralen of the Mornsong pretty much locks your opponent out of the game! Magical Xmas land but.. T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Scheming Symmetry, respond to it with Dark Ritual into Opposition Agent, get Maralen of the Mornsong, T3 cast Maralen of the Mornsong, GG.

Wonder how this will impact legacy, if it sees play, fetchlands finally have a con now. Until now, even monoblue decks needed to play fetchlands to abuse Brainstorm. Fetchlands were all upside.

[Cire]

Work's well with Ghost Quarter too . . . and just oh man, is this a juicy card :eek:

[rufus]

Auto-Include in my deck. Absolutely destroys (like 3 for 1 or just straight up win the game) doomsday, ...

Seems like an Aven Mindcensor with upgraded payoff. I wonder whether that's really enough to make it more than a marginal card in legacy.

I guess there's also the potential for using it in Veteran Explorer decks.

[UseLess]

You only control what cards are searched for, not if the search is done in the first place. Veteran, Ghost Quarter, Path to Exile and many more say that your opponent may search. If they choose not to, it's just like a whiff on Aven Mindcensor. Granted, that card sees tremendous play, so this must be a great card! :confused:

I'm highly doubtful it will do much if anything. You need three open mana and then your opponent also needs to search. Perhaps a better Aven Mindcensor is good enough though, we'll see in time I suppose.

[Captain Hammer]

You're right, it's just a black Aven Mindcensor with more upside.

Veteran Explorer only ramping you and not your opponent is pretty good.

If you use it in response to a fetch, you always get value, even if your opponent uses a removal on it. Plus being able to ramp when your opponent cracks a fetch fits Nic Fits plan well.

It will see play in Nic Fit atleast :laugh:

[PirateKing]

Decks that main deck Plague Engineer might consider running Opposition Agent.
Past that I don't see it warping too much of the overall flow of the game.

[Mr. Safety]

So what about manamorphose and all these red rituals. Sure its akward if you get stuck at the beginning but once you get going you should get more mana? And well alot more storm!

For one more mana you get Bonus Round, which guarantees a Fork on every spell. I don't think this is a storm card.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/magusoftheorder.jpg

What an utterly disappointing card.

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/oppositionagent.jpg

Opposition Agent might be the best card spoiled so far. The already mentioned combo with Maralen of the Mornsong is game ending (unless their board position is so vastly superior that you're fucked anyway). They can't draw cards, lose 3 life on each of their turns, you can search your best cards while also being able to use their best cards against them. Your own life loss is rather irrelevant since you can search for life gain cards anyway in a clutch - that's merely a matter of good deck building, nothing else.

[Cire]

Another, more minor, benefit of this card is that you control the player, like mindslaver, so you get to see their hand/sideboard/morphs when resolving their search (I think) edit - nvm - mindslaver doesn't allow you to look at SB since 2016.

[rufus]

For one more mana you get Bonus Round, which guarantees a Fork on every spell. I don't think this is a storm card.

A combo deck would also have to have spare mana to make Krark a viable card since mana is needed to overcome unfavorable coin flips. So that extra mana is something that you'd want for playing Krark too. Combo decks can do odd things, but it would take a lot of strangeness for Krark to make sense as a combo piece.

I've been thinking about this. With Krark, you're spending 1R and a card to (roughly) draw every instant or sorcery that you cast while he's in play twice. So it's like getting X extra cards (but no extra mana) where X is the number of spells that you cast while he's in play. If there was a spell that let you draw cards for 1R, how many would it have to draw before it became playable? Nobody plays Night's Whisper and Ideas Unbound is, at best, a marginal card. Now, Krark does offer a bit more CA than those since he's a permanent that would have to be removed, but it still seems like you want to be casting (and duping) more than two spells for him to make sense, and that's asking a lot.

[Pittplayer]

Can anyone confirm if Opposition Agent allows you to look at your opps hand while you are controlling their search?

[FTW]

You only control what cards are searched for, not if the search is done in the first place. Veteran, Ghost Quarter, Path to Exile and many more say that your opponent may search. If they choose not to, it's just like a whiff on Aven Mindcensor. Granted, that card sees tremendous play, so this must be a great card! :confused:

I'm highly doubtful it will do much if anything. You need three open mana and then your opponent also needs to search. Perhaps a better Aven Mindcensor is good enough though, we'll see in time I suppose.

The upside to Aven Mindcensoring them is much higher. There's a good chance you can ambush them on a fetch. Only you don't just Stifle the fetch, you also get to steal a land and gain perfect information by seeing their whole library.

"Destroy target land. Gain +1 land" is pretty good value for what's basically a flash ETB trigger (assuming they play around it afterwards).

The perfect information advantage can't be overlooked either. You can infer the contents of their hand (if not see it directly) and know exactly how to SB against them next game. That is a lot better than just Stifling the fetch with Mindcensor.

This fits pretty well into Reeplcheep's Curse Stompy deck, where opponents will need to crack fetches into open 2B just to beat Trinisphere.

It also has potential with forced searches like Scheming Symmetry, which turns into Imperial Seal + steal the best card from their deck.

[Captain Hammer]

Perfect for a Sinkhole+Wasteland.dec

Is land destruction back on the menu in legacy?

How about Krak the Thumbless in a big red deck that plays cards like Seething Song (Manamorphose/Rite of Flame/Pyretic Ritual/Ironcreg Feet/Geosurge).

A Seething Song the turn after casting Krak either makes you 10 mana, or goes back to your hand to try again the next turn.

What's the best I win the game 6-10cc spell for Red other than Belcher/Warrens, some giant resilient dragon?

[rufus]

...
What's the best I win the game 6-10cc spell for Red other than Belcher/Warrens, some giant resilient dragon?

Dragonstorm is pretty good if there's a decent storm count. Krark makes non-storm instant and sorcery payoffs unreliable which shortens the list of possibilities considerably.

[Cire]

So what's a good shell for this? The ideal play seems to be:

1 Land + Discard or Mana Dork/Accel
2 Land + Hold mana open for Opposition Agent in response to a search (Dark Ritual in hand if Mana Dork wasn't cast earlier).
3 Land + Discard/Creature Kill and if Opposition Agent in play then Scheming Symmetry for Maralen to get the lock and win.

So something like:

18 Land
6 Discard
6 Creature Kill
4 Mana Dork/ Accel
4 Dark Ritual
4 Opposition Agent
4 Scheming Symmetry
1 Maralen

That's 13 cards open, but I think the intuition is to add blue just because blue is blue and the best, so we want to have at least 18-19 blue cards, so we need to make room for an additional 6-7 blue cards in the above. Drown in the Loch can take the place of 1-2 Creature kill, so that leaves about 4-5 more cards we need to cut for blue. Any suggestions?

The blue shell being

7-10 Cantrips
7-10 Counters
2-4 Threats

[rufus]

So what's a good shell for this? The ideal play seems to be:

...

Any suggestions?

I'm curious about the potential of a nic fit kind of shell with Eldrich Evolution as a way to find 3-drops.

[FTW]

If you're going for the combo, you can just play 4x Maralen and 1x Agent in an Aether Vial hatebears deck.

Tick Vial to 3,
EOT flash in Maralen
Draw step tutor for Agent and Vial it in.

[Pittplayer]

If you're going for the combo, you can just play 4x Maralen and 1x Agent in an Aether Vial hatebears deck.

Tick Vial to 3,
EOT flash in Maralen
Draw step tutor for Agent and Vial it in.

I have been playing it in a monoblack pox shell. 4 Agents, 1 Mornsong, a couple Dimir Machinations, some Unearths, and some other 3 mana tutor targets like Ensnaring Bridge. It has worked pretty well. I'm also running Bloodghasts and Plage Engineers.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

The upside to Aven Mindcensoring them is much higher. There's a good chance you can ambush them on a fetch. Only you don't just Stifle the fetch, you also get to steal a land and gain perfect information by seeing their whole library.

"Destroy target land. Gain +1 land" is pretty good value for what's basically a flash ETB trigger (assuming they play around it afterwards).

The perfect information advantage can't be overlooked either. You can infer the contents of their hand (if not see it directly) and know exactly how to SB against them next game. That is a lot better than just Stifling the fetch with Mindcensor.

This fits pretty well into Reeplcheep's Curse Stompy deck, where opponents will need to crack fetches into open 2B just to beat Trinisphere.

It also has potential with forced searches like Scheming Symmetry, which turns into Imperial Seal + steal the best card from their deck.

Also the potential for gamewinning plays if you steal Intuition or Buried alive. Or lol vs doomsday !!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

For one more mana you get Bonus Round, which guarantees a Fork on every spell. I don't think this is a storm card.

Which means this curves into bonus round...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Can anyone confirm if Opposition Agent allows you to look at your opps hand while you are controlling their search?

You do.
And if they have a panglacial wurm you can even tap their mana.

[FTW]

Also the potential for gamewinning plays if you steal Intuition or Buried alive. Or lol vs doomsday !!

If I have the rules right, with Doomsday you could:
-exile their FoWs and potentially cast them at any time by pitching blue cards from your hand
-exile and cast their discard spells to empty their hand
-leave them with 0 library

[Wrath of Pie]

If I have the rules right, with Doomsday you could:
-exile their FoWs and potentially cast them at any time by pitching blue cards from your hand
-exile and cast their discard spells to empty their hand
-leave them with 0 library
Confident you are 0-for-3 here.

[Reeplcheep]

Confident you are 0-for-3 here.

You 100% can exile 5 cards from their library, exile their graveyard & library, and play the 5 cards you steal. Not sure if you can steal cards from their graveyard.

Per the rulings on Gonti, Lord of Luxury:

You pay the costs for the exiled card if you cast it. You may pay alternative costs such as emerge rather than the card’s mana cost.
(2016-09-20)
the fow example should work.

[PirateKing]

Doomsday should be game over, since you'll control the search, the 5 cards that would be put on top get exiled under Opposition Agent, the rest get regular exiled, and Doomsday resolves with zero cards in library.

Whatever the 5 you picked can be cast, and nothing about Force of Will's alternate cost cares about being cast from hand.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If I have the rules right, with Doomsday you could:
-exile their FoWs and potentially cast them at any time by pitching blue cards from your hand
-exile and cast their discard spells to empty their hand
-leave them with 0 library

I don't think you understand: if you control them while they search, AND you exile what you find this means you will find 5 cards, exile them. Then they will exile their library and graveyard. The game is effectively over so the rest doesn't matter.

[Reeplcheep]

I don't think you understand: if you control them while they search, AND you exile what you find this means you will find 5 cards, exile them. Then they will exile their library and graveyard. The game is effectively over so the rest doesn't matter.

It could very well matter if they have a thassa's oracle in hand. But yah vs doomsday even an aven mindcensor is gg. The stealing is more relevant against cards that don't insta lose like crop rotation or KOTR.

[FTW]

I don't think you understand: if you control them while they search, AND you exile what you find this means you will find 5 cards, exile them. Then they will exile their library and graveyard. The game is effectively over so the rest doesn't matter.

I thought my comment implied that.

For the 5 cards you can pick say 2x Fow and 2x discard spell 1x land, then exile the rest of their library and graveyard and leave them with 0 cards. Not only will they lose the game with 0 library, but in case they had any tricks in hand you just tutored up discard spells to cast and free FoWs. It's hilarious overkill.

[H]

I mean, that line is all well and good, but you'd still lose if they have Cavern in play and Oracle in hand, all the Discard spells and Forces won't help you there.

[Cire]

White Court

'https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/173/672/637395657542069078.jpg

Black Court

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/173/667/637395627165160563.jpg

Just want to make a Court/Confinement deck:

Turn 1 - Land - Cantrip
Turn 2 - Land - Enlightened Tutor + cantrip
Turn 3 - Land - Confinement + FOW + Blue card for FOW
Turn 4 - Land - discard a card to confinement - Any Court that lets you win the game (White/Black/Blue all work)

[Captain Hammer]

The black and white courts are quite strong. Enchantments are tough to deal with.

Court of Grace especially seems fantastic. It works amazingly in an Armageddon Stax or Angel Stompy type deck.

Just wondering if that strategy could potentially make a comeback.

Can Emeria's Call be discarded to Mox Diamond?

Chalice, Trini and Armageddon/Ravages/Cataclysm, Wasteland+Crucible, Ghostly Prison, Flagstones, Tabernacle, Karakas are all still amazing cards. Cataclysms ability to boardwipe all planeswalkers makes it better than ever imo.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/9jc3jqh9o1w51.png

[FTW]

They couldn't just let Kobolds of Kher Keep stay strictly better than his friends...

[Cire]

The black and white courts are quite strong. Enchantments are tough to deal with.

Court of Grace especially seems fantastic. It works amazingly in an Armageddon Stax or Angel Stompy type deck.

Just wondering if that strategy could potentially make a comeback.

Can Emeria's Call be discarded to Mox Diamond?

Chalice, Trini and Armageddon/Ravages/Cataclysm, Wasteland+Crucible, Ghostly Prison, Flagstones, Tabernacle, Karakas are all still amazing cards. Cataclysms ability to boardwipe all planeswalkers makes it better than ever imo.

I'm torn with going the chalice route or just sticking with U/W:

10 Cantrips
4 Solitary Confinement
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 ET - Silver Bullet Targets
4 Sol Lands
14 Lands
6 Courts
4 FOW
4 Daze
2 FON
4 STP

Doesn't seem half-bad.

[ronco]

Since it hasnt been posted:

https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/3/c/3c7de64b-3dc8-47dd-8999-4353b5a3a06f.jpg?1603998168

Jeweled Lotus. 0. Tap, sac, add 3 of any one color. Use only to cast commanders.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Two cards coming out that might just be some of my ask time favorites.
Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith
2R
Legendary Creature - Goblin Artificer
When a land enters the battlefield under your control, create an artifact equipment token named "rock". It has "Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target" and "Equip 1." "

Partner

And

https://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/rograkhsonofrohgahh.jpg

[rufus]

Since it hasnt been posted:

...
Jeweled Lotus. 0. Tap, sac, add 3 of any one color. Use only to cast commanders.

Not really relevant to legacy, is it?

The new draw 7 seems more interesting:

https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/211/wheel-of-misfortune



2R Sorcery

Each player secretly chooses a number. Then reveal those numbers. “Wheel of Misfortune” deals damage equal to the greatest number chosen to the players that chose it. Then each player who didn’t choose the minimum number discards their hand, and draws 7 cards.

[FTW]

Two cards coming out that might just be some of my ask time favorites.
Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith
2R
Legendary Creature - Goblin Artificer
When a land enters the battlefield under your control, create an artifact equipment token named "rock". It has "Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target" and "Equip 1." "

I hope the quotation marks aren't a typo and the creature really gains Equip 1.

The Lotus fills a role LED already could, except now without discarding your hand. Seems very good with Sharuum the Hegemon (and all Commanders really).

[Pittplayer]

I hope the quotation marks aren't a typo and the creature really gains Equip 1.

The Lotus fills a role LED already could, except now without discarding your hand. Seems very good with Sharuum the Hegemon (and all Commanders really).

It has. The artifact. " Equip 1 ". Not sure how you are reading that as a creature gains equip lol

[FTW]

It has. The artifact. " Equip 1 ". Not sure how you are reading that as a creature gains equip lol

Read it again

It has "Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target" and "Equip 1." "

Look at where the quotation marks are
"Equipped creature has "Ability 1" and "Ability 2" "

There's obviously a typo there, as there should be a 2nd end quote after Ability 1. As written, it grants both abilities to the creature.

[Fox]

Create thing called rock. It [rock] has "something" and "something." Note how and is not included in the quotation marks.

[dte]

It has "Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target" and "Equip 1." "

would mean the creature has equip.

--> It has "Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target"" and "Equip 1."
is likely the correct version - less fun.

[FTW]

Create thing called rock. It [rock] has "something" and "something." Note how and is not included in the quotation marks.

That's not what it says though. There's a second set of quotation marks including the word and.

It [rock] has "Equipped creature has "something" and "something" ".

dte explained it well. It's clearly meant to be the 2nd version, but the 1st version is more fun! Equip creature to rock, go.
Edit: Equip Hopeful Eidolon to 3 Benalish Heros banded together. "Judge", go.

[Fox]

At least in English you need to have a known noun/subject before referring to it as an "it." You hit the word "it" and you have to go back in time to find what is being replaced/alluded to.

So we read the card and come to "It has" - this is technically a complete sentence by itself. Ignore everything that comes after this point, we already have a subject [pronoun] and a verb. Before we continue we must be able to define what "it" refers to. This is only ever retrospective in English grammatical rules.

[PirateKing]

This is like a inside look at my poor computer trying to run some C++ I wrote in high school

[FTW]

I like the C++ reference


At least in English you need to have a known noun/subject before referring to it as an "it." You hit the word "it" and you have to go back in time to find what is being replaced/alluded to.

So we read the card and come to "It has" - this is technically a complete sentence by itself. Ignore everything that comes after this point, we already have a subject [pronoun] and a verb. Before we continue we must be able to define what "it" refers to. This is only ever retrospective in English grammatical rules.

"It" refers to Rock obviously. The issue is not about what "it" refers to, but about what "it" gains. As written, "it" is only gaining one ability. Look at the positioning of the quotation marks.

I'll substitute "Rock" for "it" and use two different types of quotation marks to highlight the difference.

It has "Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target" and "Equip 1." "
Rock has <<Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target" and "Equip 1." >>
Rock has << some text >>

Focus on what's inside the << >>.
<<Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target" and "Equip 1" >>
<<Equipped creature has "something" and "something">>

Picture the Rock token. What text would be on it?

Rock
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target" and "Equip 1".

Rock gives the equipped creature 2 abilities.


It should say
Rock has <<Equipped creature has "1, Sacrifice Rock: deal 2 damage to any target">> and <<Equip 1>>.
That gives 2 separate abilities to Rock.

[Ronald Deuce]

Guys, the card isn't even spoiled in English yet.

Also, professional editor and proofreader here. Pretty sure that if the quoted material is accurately translated, creatures aren't getting Equip 1.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

..has "<thing one>" and "<thing two>".
Where <thing one> is Equipped creature has "<thing Three>"

[Barook]

https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1322276221158264834

War Room isn't Legacy playable, after all.

[ReAnimator]

Does hallow work with the new wheel?
Like if you are at 20 you can just pay 20 life and gain 20 life and draw 7?
I doubt that's relevant to legacy but it is super cool and weird.


Wheel of Misfortune


2R


Sorcery


Each player secretly chooses a number. Then reveal those numbers. Wheel of Misfortune deals damage equal to the greatest chosen number to each player that chose it. Then, each player who didn't choose the smallest number discards their hand, then draws seven cards.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Does hallow work with the new wheel?
Like if you are at 20 you can just pay 20 life and gain 20 life and draw 7?
I doubt that's relevant to legacy but it is super cool and weird.


Wheel of Misfortune


2R


Sorcery


Each player secretly chooses a number. Then reveal those numbers. Wheel of Misfortune deals damage equal to the greatest chosen number to each player that chose it. Then, each player who didn't choose the smallest number discards their hand, then draws seven cards.





Why choose 20 when you can prevent any positive integer between 0 and infinity, and then gain that same amount in life?

[ReAnimator]

Why choose 20 when you can prevent any positive integer between 0 and infinity, and then gain that same amount in life?

Oh yeah i guess you can bid with life you don't have. So 2 card infinite life combo, interesting.

[Pittplayer]

Why choose 20 when you can prevent any positive integer between 0 and infinity, and then gain that same amount in life?

That...seems broken.

[PirateKing]

https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1322276221158264834

War Room isn't Legacy playable, after all.

Cowardice confirmed

[Barook]

Are there any cards/spells that can completely redirect the damage of one (red) spell towards the opponent, regardless of the amount?

[Wrath of Pie]

Cowardice confirmed
We know that Wizards can't block Warriors, no need to point out the obvious.

[Reeplcheep]

Modern burn staple Deflecting Palm, as well as
Comeuppance
Honorable Passage

[Barook]

Modern burn staple Deflecting Palm
So you're spending 2 mana and a card to still nuke yourself? :really:

[Reeplcheep]

So you're spending 2 mana and a card to still nuke yourself? :really:

Forgot you are the controller of the damage. Best option IMO would be Soul-Fire Grandmaster+ intervention pact is infinite life.

[Wrath of Pie]

So you're spending 2 mana and a card to still nuke yourself? :really:
That would be the proper way to facepalm.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Are there any cards/spells that can completely redirect the damage of one (red) spell towards the opponent, regardless of the amount?

Pariah on stuffy doll?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Actually this poses an interesting rules question:
You have to resolve the damage trick first, and in the case of hallow all the damage is prevented, even that done to your opponent.
So there may come a time where two players who each want to deal infinite damage to themselves and try and wheel the opponent.
So what happens when two players each try and secretly choose infinity? Are we going to turn this into a contest to see who can write down as many 9's as they can? Write an equation and then hire time on a super computer to calculate it to see if we both work?

[Wrath of Pie]

Actually this poses an interesting rules question:
You have to resolve the damage trick first, and in the case of hallow all the damage is prevented, even that done to your opponent.
So there may come a time where two players who each want to deal infinite damage to themselves and try and wheel the opponent.
So what happens when two players each try and secretly choose infinity? Are we going to turn this into a contest to see who can write down as many 9's as they can? Write an equation and then hire time on a super computer to calculate it to see if we both work?
You are bad at this large numbers thing, it's an arrow race.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You are bad at this large numbers thing, it's an arrow race.

If you use notation a judge doesn't understand, that's a null.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Cowardice confirmed

With so many cowards at WOTC one good warrior should be able to just bust in and change this.

[Reeplcheep]

busy beaver functions and TREE() grow much faster than up arrows

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/hanseriksson.jpg

Now that's a hilarious throwback.

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/armoredskyhunter.jpg

Interesting white card, although I can't see it fitting into any Legacy deck. Fun with E-Tutor, though.

[Cire]

Attack with skyhunter into E-Tutor searching for Colossification, attach it to skyhunter - skyhunter is already tapped from attacking, deal 23 flying damage?

https://i.redd.it/bv0bkkxsxgw51.png

Another card for Demon Stompy?

[Reeplcheep]

Another card for Demon Stompy?

Imo this is an amazing card for a more aggressive black stompy with Rotting Regisaur, but is a poor fit for my deck.

[Barook]

Attack with skyhunter into E-Tutor searching for Colossification, attach it to skyhunter - skyhunter is already tapped from attacking, deal 23 flying damage?

https://i.redd.it/bv0bkkxsxgw51.png

Another card for Demon Stompy?
Oh yeah, Colossification is a thing now - and I completely forgot about the big auras, completely focusing on equipment. Still doesn't seem too hot for Legacy use imho, but I could be wrong. Eldrazi Conscription would be another good target.

Plague Reaver seems great. Can be played as early as T1 and a 6/5 is nothing to sneeze at (see: big Goyfs). That it can turn dead draws into self-reanimation agianst removal is pretty nifty, too.

[Ronald Deuce]

https://i.redd.it/bv0bkkxsxgw51.png

My bass-ackward Dredge sense is tingling.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oh yeah, Colossification is a thing now - and I completely forgot about the big auras, completely focusing on equipment. Still doesn't seem too hot for Legacy use imho, but I could be wrong. Eldrazi Conscription would be another good target.

Plague Reaver seems great. Can be played as early as T1 and a 6/5 is nothing to sneeze at (see: big Goyfs). That it can turn dead draws into self-reanimation agianst removal is pretty nifty, too.

It can only reanimate under an opponent's control.

[FTW]

It can only reanimate under an opponent's control.

Yeah, I don't see the Dredge application. But it works pretty well in a bind as a 0-mana uncounterable Wrath. It reanimates on upkeep, so they can't attack yet, and then on end step it makes them sacrifice all their Emrakuls and Marit Lages and Yawgmoth's Bargains.

Then you could steal it back with Homeward Path, after the end step trigger, and attack for 6 into their empty board.

In general it's a nice beater in a low-threat prison deck, probably good with:
4x Rotting Regisaur
4x Opposition Agent
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Dark Ritual
4x Chrome Mox
4x Ancient Tomb

[Pittplayer]

Attack with skyhunter into E-Tutor searching for Colossification, attach it to skyhunter - skyhunter is already tapped from attacking, deal 23 flying damage?

https://i.redd.it/bv0bkkxsxgw51.png

Another card for Demon Stompy?

Ensnaring bridge with recurring board wipe? A bit of a build around but seems interesting. Maybe in Loam Pox where loam keeps cards in hand?

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/commandersplate.jpg

Since it isn't a cost like War Room, this should be able to give protection from every color, right? Even if it costs 5 mana to equip, maybe there are some uses.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/commandersplate.jpg

Since it isn't a cost like War Room, this should be able to give protection from every color, right? Even if it costs 5 mana to equip, maybe there are some uses.

I'd wait until the wheel finishes spinning but I would consider the colors not in your commander's identity are part of the same calculation that can't be done so you'd have protection from nothing.

[FTW]

Even if it works, a 5-mana equip seems like a lot of effort to play Etched Champion, when you could spend less to just equip that with a buff instead.

This is also a format with Allosaurus Shepherd+Natural Order into Progenitus

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/hullbreacher.jpg

WotC still doesn't understand why symmetry is sometimes needed... :rolleyes:

[Mr. Safety]

JFC, we aren't even safe from a casual-targeted product.

[Barook]

JFC, we aren't even safe from a casual-targeted product.
Is it still casual if you include must-have cards like the Commander Black Lotus?

[Cire]

Forget Maralen Lock - I wouldn't mind just trying to go for a Flash Dimir Stompy Deck with Opposition Agent and Hullbreacher to just absolutely mess with opponent's draws and fetches.

[Cire]

But also Hullbreacher + Burning Inquiry/Winds of Change is a 2UR win really right?

[caiomarcos]

I hate these cards and all the asymmetrical effects of late - Karn, Narset, Teferi etc
But also, why did it have to be blue???? That's really offensive

[Captain Hammer]

But also Hullbreacher + Burning Inquiry/Winds of Change is a 2UR win really right?

Don't forget Narset, Parter of Veils

[Barook]

But also Hullbreacher + Burning Inquiry/Winds of Change is a 2UR win really right?
It also curves really well with Anvil of Bogardan and Teferi's Puzzle Box. Especially the latter is devestating, as they'll lose their entire hand each time. Not a 100% lock, as instants are still and out, but it's pretty close.

On a different note:
http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/sakashimaofathousandfacesp.jpg

One mana cheaper than Mirror Gallery, has Awesome and a body. Fun with Leyline of Singularity.

[Glass House]

But also, why did it have to be blue???? That's really offensive
Yeah, the most powerful draw hate being blue feels counterproductive...

[Zoid]

Yeah, the most powerful draw hate being blue feels counterproductive...

Well, I would argue Notion Thief is stronger but also blue.

In general I really hate how strong these cards are.
They are neither symmetrical nor do they have a clause to overcome them.
While it is less likely in singleton formats for which these cards are claimed to be designed, they can still create some serious soft locks.
Especially the fetch blocker is seriously neck breaking.
Can't imagine the commander crowd likes playing against these shitters.

At CMC3 I fear that they will be relevant for legacy.
While I in general approve of hosers to xerox, I hate the approach they have taken for hate cards in recent years.
They have gone from symmetrical/hindering to binary, one sided disablers to binary + one sided + advantage for you with the downside of being attached to something that dies to bolt.

The nail in the coffin for this set is still the black lotus at mythic.
Since I don't read reddit or other many other forums, I don't know what the general consensus on it is, but I would be furious to have to spent probably 100€+ for basically each deck.
Apparently, the counsel or whatever circus is in charge of the format knew about it and said it's ok.

Anyone else thinking about cashing out and coming back in 2-3 years after the inevitable crash?

[Kage]

The nail in the coffin for this set is still the black lotus at mythic.
Since I don't read reddit or other many other forums, I don't know what the general consensus on it is, but I would be furious to have to spent probably 100€+ for basically each deck.


It will be likely instabanned in any reasonable Commander variant, from French 1v1 to kitchen table casual.

[Barook]

It will be likely instabanned in any reasonable Commander variant, from French 1v1 to kitchen table casual.
Commander Council already gave it their ok, so don't expect anything from them.

[FTW]

In general I really hate how strong these cards are.
They are neither symmetrical nor do they have a clause to overcome them.

Well the clause to overcome it is Abrupt Decay.
That card is criminally underplayed but answers pretty much all of the recent offenders except for Karn and Rogue Elephant.

[Wrath of Pie]

Commander Council already gave it their ok, so don't expect anything from them.
He did say reasonable.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/swordstoplowshares.jpg

I really like this StP art.

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/courtofire.jpg

Red Court - probably too expensive to see Legacy play, even in things like Moon Stompy.

[FTW]

Red Court seems great in Moon Stompy, even as a 1-of. It fills a triple role of card draw, removal and finisher.

The 4-mana slot is already crowded (Karn, Chandra, Confluence) but there's not much better than this available at 5+ mana. Monarch also indirectly synergizes with planeswalkers, because they'll be torn between which to attack.

Edit: Nevermind, I forgot you need a creature to deal combat damage to regain the Monarch token. Shock doesn't cut it, and this would probably take the slot of a creature.

[morgan_coke]

Do the courts make sense in an Enduring Ideal deck? Or are you better off just tossing them in a Replenish/Vaults type shell?

[Tylert]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/swordstoplowshares.jpg

I really like this StP art.

http://mythicspoiler.com/cmr/cards/courtofire.jpg

Red Court - probably too expensive to see Legacy play, even in things like Moon Stompy.

Wording is strange... it deals "2 damage to any target" or "7 to a player or a permanent"...
Are they going to print instant and sorceries that can be dealt damage???

[Reeplcheep]

Red Court seems great in Moon Stompy, even as a 1-of. It fills a triple role of card draw, removal and finisher.

The 4-mana slot is already crowded (Karn, Chandra, Confluence) but there's not much better than this available at 5+ mana. Monarch also indirectly synergizes with planeswalkers, because they'll be torn between which to attack.

Edit: Nevermind, I forgot you need a creature to deal combat damage to regain the Monarch token. Shock doesn't cut it, and this would probably take the slot of a creature.

Chandra Heart of Fire sees unironic play in red prison, and this is considerably more powerful (if more fragile).

[Glass House]

Court of Ire with Ensnaring Bridge sounds like a sure way to victory.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Court of Ire with Ensnaring Bridge sounds like a sure way to victory.

RB turbo fog

[ESG]

Court of Ire with Ensnaring Bridge sounds like a sure way to victory.

Gotta ban Oko first.

[kombatkiwi]

Do the courts make sense in an Enduring Ideal deck? Or are you better off just tossing them in a Replenish/Vaults type shell?
The problem is that drawing extra cards with Monarch is useless post-ideal because you can't cast anything.
The other problem is that trying to even play Enduring Ideal in the first place is questionable in legacy when the payoff for e.g. Ad Nauseam or Peer Into the Abyss is just as good and doesn't need to jump through so many hoops. (Although maybe a version that abuses Serra's Sanctum to get 5WW could work, but I still don't think these monarch cards would make sense there).

Then in terms of a Replenish strat, if the goal is to loot/mill the powerful enchantments into the bin you can probably find even more powerful options than these (like Overwhelming Splendor or Decree of Silence or whatever). If the point is just to play some decent enchantments and then Replenish for value if they get countered/removed then the idea is okay, but being this kind of control (or at least big midrange) deck you're going to be on the back foot a lot so it's a risk to play a card to make yourself the monarch only to potentially give it to the opponent. So far I think only the white one is viable for this role because it helps to fight over the board to re-take / retain the monarch but you probably can't play that many copies of it because it still costs 4. That's my 2c anyway.


Wording is strange... it deals "2 damage to any target" or "7 to a player or a permanent"...
7 to THAT player or permanent

[FTW]

RB turbo fog

Mono R turbo fog works too.
Add 4x Karn to have more tutors for Bridge.
Total mana denial is another form of fogging, Orim's Chanting their turn, so add Blood Moon and 3sphere.
Then you might as well play some creatures that can attack through Bridge, like 1/1 Goblin token engines.


As for Oko, Bridge + Court is hard for a newly cast Oko to fight. They have one turn before Court deals 7 damage to Oko. If they Elk Bridge, you lose Bridge but they don't have a haste Rogue Elephant to attack and you have a 3/3 chump blocker, so they probably can't steal your Monarch token and you nuke Oko. If they make a Rogue Elephant, it can't attack due to Bridge and then you nuke Oko. As long as there isn't a resolved Oko on board, a new Oko isn't fast enough to disrupt. (If there is already an Oko on board, don't play into it like a chump).

EOT Ice-Fang Coatl is a much bigger threat, due to flash and you drawing 1 card from Monarch (so a 1/1 can attack through Bridge).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Mono R turbo fog works too.
Add 4x Karn to have more tutors for Bridge.
Total mana denial is another form of fogging, Orim's Chanting their turn, so add Blood Moon and 3sphere.
Then you might as well play some creatures that can attack through Bridge, like 1/1 Goblin token engines.


As for Oko, Bridge + Court is hard for a newly cast Oko to fight. They have one turn before Court deals 7 damage to Oko. If they Elk Bridge, you lose Bridge but they don't have a haste Rogue Elephant to attack and you have a 3/3 chump blocker, so they probably can't steal your Monarch token and you nuke Oko. If they make a Rogue Elephant, it can't attack due to Bridge and then you nuke Oko. As long as there isn't a resolved Oko on board, a new Oko isn't fast enough to disrupt. (If there is already an Oko on board, don't play into it like a chump).

EOT Ice-Fang Coatl is a much bigger threat, due to flash and you drawing 1 card from Monarch (so a 1/1 can attack through Bridge).

Or I can skip bridge, play 3 colors in Black White and Red, and still play Teferi's protection (And slap it on a Panoptic Mirror)

[ESG]

As for Oko, Bridge + Court is hard for a newly cast Oko to fight. They have one turn before Court deals 7 damage to Oko. If they Elk Bridge, you lose Bridge but they don't have a haste Rogue Elephant to attack and you have a 3/3 chump blocker, so they probably can't steal your Monarch token and you nuke Oko. If they make a Rogue Elephant, it can't attack due to Bridge and then you nuke Oko. As long as there isn't a resolved Oko on board, a new Oko isn't fast enough to disrupt. (If there is already an Oko on board, don't play into it like a chump).

EOT Ice-Fang Coatl is a much bigger threat, due to flash and you drawing 1 card from Monarch (so a 1/1 can attack through Bridge).

Well, if there's already an Oko on board, the game is likely going south. A large percentage of decks playing Oko also play Coatl and Force of Will and Force of Negation, so I can't see Bridge + Court working out that often. Waiting to cast Bridge until you have Court is going to mean you have to lead with Court and either pass the turn or have eight mana available. If you lead with Court, Coatl can steal the Monarch emblem. Court is fine at shooting stuff down, but it will be tough to take the emblem back in a Red Stompy shell. Something like Battle Screech or Lingering Souls would probably be better with Court.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Why would it be tough? Just play another and hold up a bolt this time

[Barook]

Gavin Verhey's thoughts about white in Commander Legends (https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1323873276376965120)

Since he was the lead designer, worth a read, even if you agree or not.

[Captain Hammer]

Court of Ire with Ensnaring Bridge sounds like a sure way to victory.

Red Bridge Moon Prison. Chandras and Courts as our win conditions.


Also hoping that recent cards like Armored Skyhunter, the White Court, the Thalias (and whatever 2W Flash 3/2 lockpiece) they print will be good enough to make Angel Batterskull Stompy a viable deck again.

[Glass House]

Regarding the threat of end step Coatl, you can try pairing Bridge with its old friend Bottled Cloister.

[TsumiBand]

Gavin Verhey's thoughts about white in Commander Legends (https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1323873276376965120)

Since he was the lead designer, worth a read, even if you agree or not.

We need to get better at phrasing some of these "why is CARDNAME not in OTHER_COLOR" questions. Designers will always win that question, as worded. If you get them monologuing about the final implementation, they're just going to be 100% right because unless a card absolutely shatters the color wheel they'll be able to tell you exactly why a card is in the color it's printed in.

I feel like the questions would be better stated like "COLOR has access to EFFECT but it never gets printed on a tier like CARDNAME, and we can show you how it polarizes the metagame with DATA. Can we discuss why that is?"

I mean probably the biggest example of asking this question is TNN, right - White is meant to be #1 at protection, but Blue is the only color that could ever implement "protection from a player" because Blue gets to hack the game while White has to play the game. A better comment might be to challenge designers to reassert White's protection as being top-notch, on as playable a tier as TNN was, without just insisting that exactly "TNN, but castable with Plains" should have been printed. (This same idea applies to all those "White Duress" shitty card creation posts too, which I can admit I've been guilty of. It's an easy mistake to make.)

[Barook]

I mean probably the biggest example of asking this question is TNN, right - White is meant to be #1 at protection, but Blue is the only color that could ever implement "protection from a player" because Blue gets to hack the game while White has to play the game. A better comment might be to challenge designers to reassert White's protection as being top-notch, on as playable a tier as TNN was, without just insisting that exactly "TNN, but castable with Plains" should have been printed. (This same idea applies to all those "White Duress" shitty card creation posts too, which I can admit I've been guilty of. It's an easy mistake to make.)
TNN is a terrible example because it was both a fuck you to the color pie and the playerbase. Maro's justification for TNN was that while white is the best color for colored protection, blue is the best for non-color protection. Except this is false on so many levels - white was also the best color for non-color protection and blue was tied with red for the worst colors that offer protection.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

white was also the best color for non-color protection and blue was tied with red for the worst colors that offer protection.

Exactly! blue and red have some nice protection against each other but the best cards vs red are still in white.

Idk with TNN i guess they just wanted to make a Merfolk and ... sell their product!



Anyway are there any good green cards in this set?
Edit: ok the court is insteresting.

[TsumiBand]

TNN is a terrible example because it was both a fuck you to the color pie and the playerbase. Maro's justification for TNN was that while white is the best color for colored protection, blue is the best for non-color protection. Except this is false on so many levels - white was also the best color for non-color protection and blue was tied with red for the worst colors that offer protection.

I agree that "non-color protection" is a stretch and a copout, IIRC the non-color protection Blue had previously was like "Protection from Beasts" or something equally stupid, but let's not still act like Protection from Players could ever exist in White, I don't think that could realistically happen. I do think a playable protection creature can exist in White on a power level the same tier as, or better than, TNN, and the stronger question then becomes "how can you better demonstrate White's dominance in the protection game" and not "when do we get White True-Name".

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I just think "protection from player" meaning "all sources from that player" is not something that should exist on anything other than an overcosted haymaker.

[TsumiBand]

I just think "protection from player" meaning "all sources from that player" is not something that should exist on anything other than an overcosted haymaker.

Right, sure, but again, I think the better question will always be one where we get designers talking about bottom-up design instead of why the finished product isn't in a different color. "Make my Black/Blue cards White" is kind of a losing proposition, but "Reassert the strengths of the colors so there's no question about who's BiS with these mechanics" feels stronger to me, that's all.