How to break Krark, the Thumbless plus Summoner's Pact

[kinda]

Krark plus summoner's pact plus food chain or aluren? There must be some way to win then with both but nothing comes to mind.

Is there something else here?

[mistercakes]

We need to brew more together.

Food chain

You can start with skyshroud cutter and fierce empath , not sure if that's an auto win, but you end up with a 6 drop you can cast. (of any color), maybe something can enter the battlefield and return the pact to hand to do it again.

Then you can loop a few times.

Keep in kind you can actually sac Krark for 3 more, so you can get. A 9 drop or less. With empath.

Actually you can sac Krark for 3, empath gets Aethersnipe. You evoke snipe and sac it for 7 and bounce the empath. Then you can replay empath and get something else. That should be enough to figure something out.

So at this point you have

5 from cutter
If you don't use Krark again (maybe we would butets assume not)
3 from Krark

8 mana, use 3 for empath. Get snipe. Use snipe (2 left), Exile snipe (9 left), cast empath (6 left), Exile empath is 9cc.

If you keep Krark you would ideally find a 6 drop that can return pact to hand. I'm sure they made some dumb commander card that does exactly that.

Anyone know if that exists?

scholar of the ages looks like the closest one. You might not need two copies of pact the second time. Just being able to get another empath is a pretty good deal.

4 remaining from snipe, 4 from empath. Use 7 to cast this guy. Get pact. Use pact to get another empath. You could actually chain these but I'm not sure that's the best way. I suppose you could at this point get a griselbrand, draw until you hit a griffin and a walking ballista. Then sac the griselbrand to cast the griffin and go lethal.

So turn 1 hierarch, turn 2 food chain. Sac hierarch for Krark + pact = game over.

was on phone so i'll clean up the format

t1 hierarch, t2 land food chain.
sac hierarch and cast krark.
pact for cutter and empath

exile cutter, cast empath (GG remaining), search for scholar of the ages.
exile empath (GGGG + GG), exile Krark (UUU), cast Scholar returning pact. GU remaining.
exile scholar -> BBBB BBBB + GU.
cast pact -> get empath.
cast empath. (BB BBBB + U) (get griselbrand)
exile empath -> 11 mana. cast griselbrand and draw into griffin + ballista.

Nate pointed out greenwarden of murosa, seems a lot better than the blue guy. I'll rewrite the steps with that guy. This way you can use Krark + pact twice (at least).

[kinda]

Nice!!! This is very cool.

[mistercakes]

Was thinking that the initial pact can get cutter and eternal witness. Then you can return the pact and even do that again.


Cutter + witness, return pact
Then get cutter + empath into grisel kill

[kinda]

Was thinking that the initial pact can get cutter and eternal witness. Then you can return the pact and even do that again.


Cutter + witness, return pact
Then get cutter + empath into grisel kill

Very compact now, nice. I'm sure there's a better shell but for fun I'll try stuffing it in the cure. Plenty of overlap.

Jakobian did this one, 19 damage.

For aluren:
4 Eternal Witness (loop pact each time)
4 dwyen's elite, final pacts get
2 shaman of the pack

Edit: Summoning Cure v2.


4 False Cure
4 Krark the Thumbless
4 food chain
4 summoner's pact
2 eternal witness
1 fierce empath
1 griselbrand
1 platinum angel
1 hydroid krasis
3 once upon a time
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Invigorate
4 Kavu Predator

2 lotus petal
3 dark ritual
19 L

[mistercakes]

I'd recommend maybe some numbers of manamorphose and elvish spirit guide.

[mistercakes]

Very compact now, nice. I'm sure there's a better shell but for fun I'll try stuffing it in the cure. Plenty of overlap.

Jakobian did this one, 19 damage.

For aluren:
4 Eternal Witness (loop pact each time)
4 dwyen's elite, final pacts get
2 shaman of the pack

Edit: Summoning Cure v2.


4 False Cure
4 Krark the Thumbless
4 food chain
4 summoner's pact
2 eternal witness
1 fierce empath
1 griselbrand
1 platinum angel
1 hydroid krasis
3 once upon a time
4 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Invigorate
4 Kavu Predator

2 lotus petal
3 dark ritual
19 L


i do like that griselbrand can kill with false cure. that's pretty neat. i wonder if there's a way to roundabout way to not to rely on lotus petals, maybe something like running a priest of gix or some untap effect. priest of gix effectively converts food chain mana into real mana, but he's not searchable with empath or pact.

you could consider 2 wild cantor, it's a strange way to achieve it, but you can pact for 2 cantor, cast them both with food chain mana and then cast false cure. might be too many slots.

[rufus]

Does Krark really help that much for something like this when you can just run pact witness loops into creature tutor chains like:

Food Chain + Pact -> Witness -> Pact -> Witness -> Pact -> Fierce Empath -> Woodland Bellower -> Fierce Empath -> Woodland Bellower -> Fierce Empath -> Woodland Bellower -> Fierce Empath -> Rune-Scarred Demon -> Rune-Scarred Demon-> Maga, Traitor to Mortals

[Finn]

I'm not as sharp as I once was, so forgive my ignorance (and along the lines of what Rufus is coming at). How is this better than having two Summoner's Pacts?

[mistercakes]

I'm not as sharp as I once was, so forgive my ignorance (and along the lines of what Rufus is coming at). How is this better than having two Summoner's Pacts?

it may not be any better. at face value though, the ability to get two triggers allows you to ensure you can cast the eternal witness immediately. (since you can grab the skyshroud cutter and a witness. i guess it could also be vine dryad if you really hate cutter and don't mind being down another green card.)

sorry and even though the bellower combo is cool, are you really going to run that many card slots on bellower and empaths and witnesses? this is just 1 witness, 1 empath and 1 cutter/dryad. (you can run more, but it's not necessary)

i think these will likely just be tier 2 versions of food chain anyway.

the redundancy of these blue creatures is just too good. (ice fang and watcher is just a bit too consistent)

https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/food-griffin-decklist-by-andras-sevigny-1052046

i think to make it worth while, it will likely need to be krark + summoner's pact without a third card.

[rufus]

...
sorry and even though the bellower combo is cool, are you really going to run that many card slots on bellower and empaths and witnesses? this is just 1 witness, 1 empath and 1 cutter/dryad. (you can run more, but it's not necessary)
....

Combos that go off from two pieces (food chain + pact) tend to be much more effective than ones that run off of three (food chain + krark + pact), and how many slots does not playing Krark save? If there's a Krark + X payoff instead of some 3-card thing the calculus is pretty different.

The bellower thing wasn't meant to be optimized. It's just an example of bootstrapping the combo without Krark. I'm sure there's leaner stuff like .... Fierce Empath -> Rune Scarred Demon -> find a second pact -> fierce empath -> scholar of the ages (return 2x pact) ->...

[mistercakes]

The best deck for this guy will be some generic blue red good stuff deck.

Will need to think some more about how it could win without a third card.

[pettdan]

I heard a comment on some podcast, forget which one, about good synergy with storm spells. As you cast it you get the storm trigger even if the spell is returned to your hand. Grapeshot seems decent with this effect. Storming out seems nice. Maybe it works in Ruby Storm, probably not. Their rituals tend to be so expensive, up to cmc 3, idk. Flusterstorm isn't well positioned but good with Krark.

Ah, it's mentioned in the other Krark thread, nevermind then.

Maybe run it with Nivmagus Elemental. More edit: cast a couple of cantrips, bolt, daze, then flusterstorm, exile storm copies to Nivmagus, potentially flusterstorm again.

[Finn]

I heard a comment on some podcast, forget which one, about good synergy with storm spells. As you cast it you get the storm trigger even if the spell is returned to your hand. Grapeshot seems decent with this effect. Storming out seems nice. Maybe it works in Ruby Storm, probably not. Their rituals tend to be so expensive, up to cmc 3, idk. Flusterstorm isn't well positioned but good with Krark.

Ah, it's mentioned in the other Krark thread, nevermind then.

Maybe run it with Nivmagus Elemental. More edit: cast a couple of cantrips, bolt, daze, then flusterstorm, exile storm copies to Nivmagus, potentially flusterstorm again.

That is interesting. And now you got me going.

Remand has some very fun interactions possible with this stuff. You could cast something like Ponder, Grapeshot. Entire stack unresolved, Remand Grapeshot. If Krark is out, Remand copy for Ponder also. Draw two cards. Cast Ponder, Grapeshot again.

Include Baral, Chief of Compliance and Monastery Swiftspear for lots of fun. Unfortunately, I bet that Krark is the weakest card in this pile and does not make the final cut.

[mistercakes]

That is really interesting about grapeshot in ruby storm. I guess you could lose the flip 3 times in a row and actually win. I brought it up as an option, but never considered how it works with storm triggers.

[Vacrix]

I helped to put this list together with my local EDH buddy Ken, as well as an entire crew of fellows on a private discord.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/G-RUVy_CMUWzXlhJknIzZg

Buyback 0 is broken af in storm.

It's EDH but there's lots of cool interactions in it.

One of my favorite potential lines in the deck, though it doesn't show up often, and my brainchild, is Baral, Chief of Compliance and Flusterstorm. Basically after the storm count gets to something like 20, Grapeshot can't get there without a ritual loop... But Flusterstorm, point half of it at itself and you can loot 10 cards, draw discard to get the card quality you need to keep going, or find the red ritual to go nuts with Jeska's Will, also looting 10 cards for U is spectacular when it returns to hand via cloned Krark. A similar thing can happen with Krark's Thumb and Pact of Negation pointed at itself, and then bounced a bunch. Making copies of Swan Song to make an army of birds by pointing it at storm triggers is also a bit neat against Turbo Naus to keep them off life as a resource.

Blazing Volley seems like the most relevant thing in legacy since copying it pokes the opponent's board and that kills most of the smaller creatures in Legacy.

Phantasmal Image of Krark would be if you're building around Krark. Command zone access to Krark, and a clone is easy to build around, and playing the free counters in EDH means copies of it, and bounced free counters.

I have a feeling Krark will mostly just find a place in Vial Goblin variants, or non-Vial variants (gasp), because Brightstone Ritual is nuts when you can Phantasmal Krark and then play it, bounce it and make a bunch of mana.

Unfortunately the deck makes cards that are banned in this format busted to high hell. This deck loves tutoring up Gitaxian Probe as one of the best spells, Frantic Search is not far behind also very good with LED/Breach lines.

It says partner right on the card, so its designed for EDH, much like Hullbreacher and Opposition Agent which likely won't make waves in this format like they will in EDH where all the tutors are legal, and all the Wheels. Stuff like Hullbreacher + Burning Inquiry is something that got cut from this list and will likely be much better in this format.

EDIT:
Niv-Magus Elemental on storm triggers could be good. It feels like Krark just gets him bigger than big rather than enabling Niv-Magus Elemental tho. Easier in EDH but Niv-Magus Elemental feeds Life's Legacy quite well.

Burnt Offering and Sacrifice make mana with Skyshroud Cutter. Then again, Culling the Weak is better without something like Hooting Mandrills in a Pact package.

Doubling Snap seems good, bounce Cloud of Faeries, make lots of mana.

I designed an alt list of the Krark/Sakashima EDH list based on Retracted Image and Gush in High Tide focused variation. Variations on Retraction Helix of Candelabra were explored but were inconsistent.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Anyone say bonus round yet?

[rufus]

I helped to put this list together with my local EDH buddy Ken, as well as an entire crew of fellows on a private discord.

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/G-RUVy_CMUWzXlhJknIzZg

Buyback 0 is broken af in storm.
...

Sure, Krark is pretty great if you've got a bunch of other stuff - like Krark Copies - that trigger on spell casting because you get that benefit even if you lose the coin flip.

I'm a little surprised Manamorphose and Fiery Gambit aren't getting consideration in the list.

[Finn]

Sure, Krark is pretty great if you've got a bunch of other stuff - like Krark Copies - that trigger on spell casting because you get that benefit even if you lose the coin flip.

I'm a little surprised Manamorphose and Fiery Gambit aren't getting consideration in the list.

Rufus, we are going to have copies of a legend? I do not think that rule has changed. Or are you referring to duplicate spells on the stack?

[rufus]

Rufus, we are going to have copies of a legend? I do not think that rule has changed. Or are you referring to duplicate spells on the stack?

The linked EDH list partners Krark with Sakashima of a thousand faces, and then uses clone effects like Cackling Counterpart, Quasiduplicate and Heat Shimmer. So it circumvents the legend thing.

Unrelated to that, on the list of bad ideas, I've been musing on the possibilities of Krark+Unbound Flourishing, but that seems like one more example where Krark ends up not mattering so much.

[pettdan]

sea gate stormcaller actually lets you get value even if the spell is returned to your hand with Krark. Also I saw Goblin Grenade in Kinda's list. Doubling or tripling up on goblin grenade would be pretty sweet. How to get goblins to sacrifice? Maybe empty the warrens with a couple of red rituals..

[Finn]

How many times are you going to be casting Goblin Grenade?

Krark is a legendary goblin, so you got something there. Maybe Goblin Engineer or even Goblin Instigator if you really need a bunch. I would not go making this into wannabe storm.

[rufus]

There's some synergy with Birgi, God of Storytelling from Kaldheim since it's another cast trigger, and Krark can move spells from the stack to hand for the horn side for card value. Though it's probably not enough.