Legacy Spirits

[Borg]

Can Legacy Spirits be viable today ?

Spirit decks already have some excellent building blocks and just recently got another very good card in Skyclave Apparition .
SA is great by itself already but being a Spirit it can also get all the +1/+1 boosts and Flash & Hexproof abilities on top in a Spirit deck.

Crucial to playing Spirits imho is Spirit of the Labyrinth . This is the card that sets Spirit tribal apart from other tribals, combined with mass Hexproof and mass Flash.
Since card draw is such an integral part of Legacy, found in nearly every deck, she can outright wreck a number of decks while slowing others down to a crawl.
Legacy staples which get impacted by SotL include among others, Ponder, Baleful Strix, Arcum's Astrolabe etc.

With SotL out we can still get around her with Brainstorm ( the opponent as well obviously ) and Mikokoro, center of the Sea . Using Mikokoro at the end of opponent's turn gives you a card while negating the opponent one.

With SotL slowing down card draw ( smaller hand sizes ) and with all your Spirits potentially having flash, I think this deck may no longer have a need for Aether Vial.
With Aether Vial out, there are no artifacts left in the deck.
This means Null Rod can be added to our sideboard.

Another useful addition may be Subterranean Tremors .
It does require a red splash but the mana base is large enough to carry that imo and it does cover some weaknesses.
Spirits feels to me like it's a finesse deck and it may get overwhelmed by stronger creatures initially.
Being able to have a one sided boardwipe and potentially take out all artifacts at the same time combined with the SotL's slow recovery ability may mean your opponent wil be unable to recover from this setback.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this.

My current version :
https://deckstats.net/decks/51702/1813366-spirits

[FTW]

Spirit decks already have some excellent building blocks and just recently got another very good card in Skyclave Apparition .
SA is great by itself already but being a Spirit it can also get all the +1/+1 boosts and Flash & Hexproof abilities on top in a Spirit deck.

SA is a great reason to play Spirits and should possibly be a 4-of, as it's one of the few spirit effects that can proactively respond to the board state (instead of just countering spells, countering removal via hexproof, or preventing draws). It can shut down nonsense when you're behind, which is something the other effects lack. Just a great card on its own, and even better next to Spirit lords and hexproof effects.


Crucial to playing Spirits imho is Spirit of the Labyrinth . This is the card that sets Spirit tribal apart from other tribals, combined with mass Hexproof and mass Flash.

Spirit of the Labyrinth was never that strong in D&T. It's still a good spirit, but I would not force so many copies in the main when you could be running versatile flyers like Selfless Spirit (much better body when you don't need either effect). Selfless Spirit protecting Captain, Queller and SA from removal is pretty big. Also SotL is a nonbo with the best card in your deck, Brainstorm.


With SotL out we can still get around her with Brainstorm ( the opponent as well obviously )

How? Even on the opponent's EOT you will only draw 1 card and then put back 2 cards from hand.

4 Brainstorm + 3 SotL seems bad, and if you have to pick one there's no question which is the better card...

Edit: I stand corrected. Other Legacy spirit decks are running SotL over Brainstorm. But never both.
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/spirits


Another useful addition may be Subterranean Tremors .
It does require a red splash but the mana base is large enough to carry that imo and it does cover some weaknesses.

Does a 1-3cc curve tribal aggro deck want to run an XR sweeper? The X=4 mode seems unlikely to kick in, especially the X=8 mode. If you just want to wipe up ground weenies, you could splash something like SB Firespout or Rough // Tumble. Firespout is much better until you hit 5 mana. Are you maindecking this and splashing another color only for what it can do at 5+ mana?


Some other spirits:
Spectral Sailor - for curve reasons you might want a 2nd 1cc flyer. flash and card draw both support your game plan.
Eidolon of Rhetoric - you probably want at least 1 of these SB vs Storm, as well as some Deafening Silence
Kataki, War's Wage - decent artifact hate in the SB as a 1-of
Soulherder - this card is really strong but lends itself to a different engine than you're going for
Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit - outside of the infinite combos, this is probably a worse lord effect even though it's 2cc
Eidolon of Obstruction - this hates on walkers, but without other mana denial maybe not enough
Eidolon of the Great Revel - storm hate and overall good aggro tool
Unsettled Mariner - another 2cc pseudo-hexproof effect
Phantasmal Image - extra lords or SAs
Shacklegeist - tempo beater and possible control tool vs cheated fatties



Edit: Here's a lower-to-the-ground version


//Spirits: 28
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
3 Spectral Sailor
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Rattlechains
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Skyclave Apparition
2 Spell Queller

//Spells: 12
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Lands: 20
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Tundra
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Moorland Haunt

//Sideboard: 15
3 Remorseful Cleric
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Spell Queller
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Null Rod
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Deafening Silence


Might still be better with Aether Vial

[Borg]

@FTW , always nice to get some response to a thread.

You're correct of course on Brainstorm. Not a good fit.

I know Subterranean Tremors is a stretch but I didn't put it in to use at 5+CC.
It's also useful at CC2+. The ability to wipe out all artifacts at 5 mana is just an added possibility that makes me prefer it over Firespout. The 8+ ability obviously was never a consideration.

I agree Skyclave Apparition may be a 4-of in a Spirit deck although the opponent may not always have a worthy target out.
So, I'm going to use 3MD + 1SB for now.

Spectral Sailor deserves a spot, though not more than 1 I think, since he only reaches his full potential when you reach 5 mana ( flash + immediate draw )

Unsettled Mariner was cut because his ability becomes mostly useless when Hexproof kicks in and because he doesn't have evasion.

Phantasmal Image was cut because he doesn't gain Flash and because I'd rather put in another copy of the card he would be supposed to copy.
I understand he gives you flexability and can occasionally copy an opposing beater but overall I feel like this deck doesn't really need him.

Shacklegeist is a nice addition. 1MD + 1SB

Why only 2 Spell Queller s in your version ?
Personally I think this is a 4-of, especially since the deck operates off Flash.
You can sit on your mana and keep all options open all the time, including countering + putting a Spirit in play at the same time.

Overall, thanks for the suggestions.
Deck currently looking like this.
https://deckstats.net/decks/51702/1813366-spirits

[FTW]

I know Subterranean Tremors is a stretch but I didn't put it in to use at 5+CC.
It's also useful at CC2+. The ability to wipe out all artifacts at 5 mana is just an added possibility that makes me prefer it over Firespout. The 8+ ability obviously was never a consideration.

If it's a pet card of yours it's worth testing. Below 5cc it's Earthquake, which has never been mana-efficient enough to be playable in most formats, rarely even making it into Standard (when it was in print). At the 2-4cc range, something like Rough // Tumble usually gets the job done. I saw that in some Spirit SBs. Paying an extra mana to deal the same amount of damage is a big tempo suck, and you usually want this effect against fast decks with mana denial.



Spectral Sailor deserves a spot, though not more than 1 I think, since he only reaches his full potential when you reach 5 mana ( flash + immediate draw )

I ran more just for curve reasons. More 1-mana plays to optimize mana utility, especially with Flash. It's better than any other 1cc Spirit (Topplegeist is probably the next best). A 1-mana flash body does all sorts of things like:
-surprise pump Mausoleum Wanderer to counter a spell or win combat
-chump block a 20/20 or other nonsense
-make a cheap 2/2 with any lord effect to trade with Delver or beatdown

The body is not spectacular, but it's amazing for tempo (use 1 mana you otherwise wouldn't use at EOT). It can't be ignored either, because if they just let you keep it then you eventually start drawing free cards. I think it's worth considering IF you want more 1ccs for curve reasons, because it outclasses the other options, but not if you're playing towards a slower reactive deck.


Why only 2 Spell Queller s in your version ?
Personally I think this is a 4-of, especially since the deck operates off Flash.
You can sit on your mana and keep all options open all the time, including countering + putting a Spirit in play at the same time.

Curve reasons. I was pushing a faster tempo build with more 1 drops, more flyers, and fewer lands. There was only so much room at the 3cc spot. Captain is an obvious 4-of. With 4 SA that doesn't leave much room, but going to 3 SA frees up space.

I'm also skeptical of Spell Queller's value in Legacy. No question it's amazing in slower formats. But Legacy has a lot of big stuff happening in the first 3 turns, and T3 OTD is pretty slow to be able to interact with the stack, while there are a lot of ways to kill it at 1-2 mana. If it just trades with a Bolt/StP/Push/Decay/Daze/REB you're way behind on tempo. You had to pass with mana open, you spent more mana than them, and they immediately get their spell back on the stack.

Queller looks best in slow grindy matches like Snowko where you can afford to just play draw-go. It also gets through Veil of Summer/Allosaurus Shepherd and counters Abrupt Decay on Captain (with Captain then protecting Queller). But I wouldn't want to see 2 copies in my hand vs any fast deck. Maybe 3-3 split with SA, and 1 of each in the SB?

I might be wrong about this. It just seems too slow and mana-hungry sometimes, especially without Vial or when you don't have mass-Flash.

Anyway, good luck with the deck! Looking forward to seeing results.

[BirdsOfParadise]

If you stare long enough at Permeating Mass, you start wondering if it has a home in a deck where (a) everything else flies, (b) you have spirit lords and your opponent doesn't, and (c) your current one-drops are bad (yes, they're bad; good would be DRS or Goblin Lackey or Mother of Runes).

And then you snap out of it.

Still, I feel like you have little action at 1cc when you play this tribe and don't play Vial.

[FTW]

It would be so much better if the lords gave First Strike. Then opponent basically can't attack into your Mass or else you neuter his board into vanilla 1/3s. Without some way to help your mass survive or force combat though, it seems bad.

I love Geist of Saint Traf but I think he only has a home in SpiritBlade (see above link for decks with Spirits and Stoneblade package). A ground 2/2 is really bad without equipment in a deck already full of flyers.

I think 4 Remorseful Cleric is overkill. The decks you want it against will often go off before you hit 2 mana. BR Reanimator, Hogaak, Dredge and others can play under 2cc hate just fine. So you want some graveyard interaction slots to be faster (Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Crypt, Cage) and only some to be 2cc.

The fact that we're even considering Spectral Sailor to have something to do with 1 mana means this deck probably does need Vial. If you want to play SotL main you could just swap Brainstorm for Vial. Vial also makes it easier to go down to 20 lands and still support Spell Queller.



//Spirits: 28
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
1 Spectral Sailor
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Rattlechains
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Drogskol Captain
3 Skyclave Apparition
3 Spell Queller

//Spells: 12
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

//Lands: 20
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
2 Prismatic Vista
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Moorland Haunt

//Rough SB: 15
2 Remorseful Cleric
2 Shacklegeist
1 Skyclave Apparition
1 Spell Queller
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
2 Deafening Silence
2 Surgical Extraction


Null Rod is obviously a nonbo with Vial.

[Borg]

Had a few practice games yesterday ( with Vial in ) and didn't like Spirit of the Labyrinth at all.
Without any card draw you're staring at a (nearly) empty hand rather fast and this in turn renders either your vial pretty useless ( certainly with Rattlechains in play ) or gives you nothing to do with your mana.

Made a good imression : Mausoleum Wanderer. Great early disruption. Holding off Hymn to Tourach on T2 is nice.

I do like the idea of Eidolon of the great Revel in combination with Aether Vial.
Going up to 3 charge counters may be a chore though if you don't get a vial early. Oko is also a potential problem.

Still WIP.

[Memories of the Time]

https://i.ibb.co/z2psGHR/2020-12-08-20-16-10-Film-e-TV.png (https://ibb.co/VCRV2pS)

This is what i'm playing, first league finished 3-2 but i've made some mistakes, the core od cc3 drops is really strong. Can't afford a FoN for the sideboard sadly
I've now cut a lord, a rattlechains and a wanderer to try 3 Mother, to grant protection in the crucial moments of the early game, before the lock&protection given by Captain and Queller.

[Reeplcheep]

Another innistrad set means we should reevaluate spirits. They picked up malevolent Hermit as a disruption, and grind/graveyard hate with Dennik, Pious Apprentice. Further back in kaldheim they got a Savannah lions in Usher of the Fallen and pseudo removal in Shacklegeist

More interesting in my opinion is Chaplain of Alms as a pseudo mom. It’s hard to remove and both sides block ragavn/delver like a champ. Also Patrician’s Geist as another lord. This would let us cut the filler spirits and/or off tribe cards. Basically the idea is merfolk 2.0; your interaction is so much better at the cost of your manabase.


Broken Legacy Cards 12
4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Disruptive Spirits 19
3 Chaplain of Alms
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
4 Skyclave Apparition
4 Spell Queller

Lords 10
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Drogskol Captain
2 Patricians Geist

Lands 19
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Tundra
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls


The deck seems pretty strong on paper; you lack removal but lords plus evasion should let you race. You also have lots of disruption for combo and removal spells. Your daze is a bit iffy to turn on t1 but all your other taxes should make it stay relevant later in the game.

[FTW]

Chaplain seems bad. Disturb cost Infinity. By then opponent can pay the tax so it isn't a Mom.
Edit: Just play Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Edit2: Unsettled Mariner already gave this deck Ward 1 for less mana

I'm not sold on the Disturb cards in general. The front faces are not Spirits, so they do not interact with lords, Wanderer, Shacklegeist, etc. You have to find a way to get them in the graveyard (nonwhite removal + no grave hate), then spend a lot of mana to play the transformed side. At least Hermit has a relevant front side, can put itself in the graveyard, and only costs 3 to recast. Chaplain is a Tundra Wolves opponent will avoid sending to GY...

If you're running 8-10 lords, keeping Moorland Haunt seems good. Free 2/2 flyers in the late game.

-3 Chaplain
+2 Selfless Spirit/Rattlechains (similar role?)
+1 Moorland Haunt (20th land helps 3 drops too)

Daze with 10 "Islands" seems suspect, especially off Turn 1 Cavern starts. Delver has 14 "Islands". I think there isn't room for 4 Cavern, 4 Wasteland and 4 Daze. Something has to give.

Could this deck just play Judge's Familiar instead of Daze? Proactive turn 1 play. Otherwise just playing Mom seems good too.
Prismatic Ending is also available as removal.

[Reeplcheep]

I mostly was looking at merfolk for inspiration as they seemed the closest from a deck theory POV.

Patrician does make the cost cheaper but I see your point about it not being a true spirit. It was mostly for curve reasons. It seemed crazy good vialed in t2 vs a ragavan.

Some merfolk players experimented with Kumena’s speaker. Maybe the on tribe Savannah lions with slight upside is good enough just to make sure I always have a 1 drop. It also sort of fills the 2 drop role too. Chaplain looks good but I am not sure I want a 2 drop that costs additional mana when I am already clogged on 3 drops.

Mostly I just think daze is crazy busted. Most blue decks will ending or force vial on t1 or t0 and it seems extremely powerful there. Most merfolk lists I found were playing daze with only 12 islands (4 mutavault 4 waste, sometimes grove). To match that I would have to cut plains and a spell for 2 islands.

Prismatic ending is great but seems greedy with cavern of souls.

How about -3 chaplain -1 Plains +2 Usher of the Fallen +2 Blue fetch

[FTW]

Yeah, even with Patrician's cost reduction, that's a combo with a 2-of and you need to send Chaplain to the graveyard somehow (opponent won't spend 2 mana Bolting it). Tundra Wolves-ambush on Ragavan is funny... but I don't think it's worth overreacting to Ragavan with a card that's weak in other matchups when you could just run StP/Prismatic in the 75.

Daze is busted with fast proactive plays. It's amazing in UR Ragavan/Delver and Doomsday. It's proven weak in some other decks with business focused at 3+ mana, when the opponent can just play out lands to play around Daze (you'll still get some free wins from bad players walking into Daze, but they aren't forced to). Daze is also awkward when you play Turn 1 Cavern. Merfolk doesn't. They play turn 1 Island. You need the pressure and manabase to really abuse Daze.

Your changes upping the Island count and replacing Chaplain (defensive) with a proactive 1-drop could help that. Usher of the Fallen does have a 1-man army Ragavan-like effect pressuring opponent to walk into Daze. Could be good. Going to 0 Plains seems risky though. Probably need to cut a colorless land.

[Reeplcheep]

Notes from the first league:

I went 3-2, deck felt decent. I was running 4 usher of the fallen, 20 lands, 0 patrician.

Jamming t1 vial and then dazing the Fow felt awesome.

Supreme Phantom walls ragavan nicely.

The usher was quite good. The boast ability was suprisingly relevant and the added pressure demanded answers early.

I need 2 more lands for sure, even with vial. Maybe even a hallowed fountain to have 6 fetchables like UR delver. The curve was too high.

Both my loses were 100% to apparition not answering murktide. I probably have to run a few Shacklegeist

Next list to test:


Broken Legacy Cards 12
4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Disruptive Spirits 16
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
4 Skyclave Apparition
2 Spell Queller
2 Shacklegeist

Clock 10
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Drogskol Captain
2 Usher of the Fallen

Lands 22
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Moorland Haunt
4 Tundra
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Cavern of Souls


It has a very nice curve of 8 0 drops, 10 1 drops, 10 2 drops, 10 3 drops to get full value out of vial without becoming durdly.

[FTW]

Great starting result!

If Usher was good, do you want to go as low as 2?

How was Spell Queller? Is it awkward that it has the same CMC restriction as Skyclave? Maybe 8 copies of that effect is losing too hard to the same cards. Cutting to 6 makes sense.

With 7 fetches + 6 blue fetchables that's approaching Delver-level of blue consistency. Should be good for Daze.

Is there room for a basic Plains somewhere? 0 Plains seems risky if you run into things like Moons or B2B.

What did you run in the SB? Some StPs in the SB seem good in case you need to cheaply remove a big threat like Murktide. It also helps with fast EOT Marit Lages (before you can get Vial @ 3 for Skyclave).

[jhhdk]

Since you're playing spirits i would've expected to see a Geist of Saint Traft + Karakas package to provide some late game inevitability (aka win more).

[Reeplcheep]

My sb was

4 swords to plowshares
3 Kataki, Wars Wage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Remorseful Spirit
2 Strict Proctor
2 Moorland Haunt


Spell queller was often too slow with daze/wasteland and no mana dorks.

It’s possible I just want to put 4 of them in the sideboard for when shacklegeist/apparition are bad. RIP might be better than remorseful spirit if I am worried about channeler.

With ending in the format my creatures aren’t dying that often. Maybe I cut the haunts entirely and then I have the full 14 islands or at least a basic plains. The deck is more white intensive than I thought. At that point the mana is basically UR delver but you have cavern and vial instead of cantripping for lands.

[FTW]

Maybe Queller in the SB is better then.

Replacing MD Moorland Haunt with 1 Plains seems good for more stable mana. You could run 1 Haunt in the SB for grindy matchups with non-exiling removal or when you need more lands.

I like Rest in Peace over the Spirit. It's even relevant in matches like Bant (Uro) and UR Delver (DRC + Murktide, and they have a hard time dealing with white enchantments). Remorseful's 1-time effect is much worse in those fair matchups.

[Reeplcheep]

I like your input. The following seems pretty tight:

Kaldheim spirits (ended up not using any innistrad cards lol)

Broken legacy cards 12
4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Clock 12
4 Usher of the Fallen
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Drogskol Captain

Disruption 14
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
2 Shacklegeist
4 Skyclave Apparition

2c delver manabase 18
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

Extra lands because we have no cantrips: 4
4 Cavern of Souls

SB
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Queller
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest In Peace
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Kataki, War’s Wage


What I like about the list is that almost every card is one of the best in other legacy decks. Vial, Apparition and Skyclave are 4 ofs in yorion D&T. Wasteland/Daze/Force are the bests cards in delver (except brainstorm/ponder). And then cavern of souls, wanderer, and the lords are comparable to Lord of Atlantis/muscle sliver/Champion of the parish.The only “bad cards” are the usher and Shacklegeist, but they are still better than Striking Sliver and Merfolk Trickster

[FTW]

This build looks more solid.

Usher looks "bad", but it actually seems strong in a Daze + Vial deck. You can spend all your mana on boast and still play creatures or counter their spells.

[Reeplcheep]

Yah the only thing is that murktide is still a massive problem. Do you think adding more geists is a good idea?

Do you think I will still have enough spirit density if I go -1 Apparition, -2 Geist, -1 Drogskol Captain for 4 plow?

That leaves 8+8+6 = 22 spirits

[Memories of the Time]

In my experience (like, three months ago) with spirits Queller was an absolute blast and one of the reasons to play the deck imho.

Usher seems underwhelming: if the token was a spirit maybe, but a 1/1 human for 1W seems really bad in legacy.

And yeah, i think you absolutely want a basic plain, for the stp in the sb too against delver.

[FTW]

Yah the only thing is that murktide is still a massive problem. Do you think adding more geists is a good idea?

Do you think I will still have enough spirit density if I go -1 Apparition, -2 Geist, -1 Drogskol Captain for 4 plow?

That leaves 8+8+6 = 22 spirits

Try -2 Geist, -1 Usher, -1 FoW (4th FoW in SB)
+4 Plow

That gives you 1 more Spirit and avoids cutting your great 3s.
It might be correct to cut the 2nd Usher first, but you can test it out.

The main thing I like about Usher is it forces opponents to play into Daze + Wasteland + Wanderer instead of just waiting with uncracked fetches while you slowly tick up Vial and attack with 1/xs.

Edit: This configuration is better against Delver preboard, but worse against combo preboard (0 StP + 4 FoW is better there), so it depends what you're metagaming for.

[Reeplcheep]

In my experience (like, three months ago) with spirits Queller was an absolute blast and one of the reasons to play the deck imho.

Usher seems underwhelming: if the token was a spirit maybe, but a 1/1 human for 1W seems really bad in legacy.

And yeah, i think you absolutely want a basic plain, for the stp in the sb too against delver.

Were you playing daze / wasteland /noble hierarch? I found that by the time I got to 3 mana anything important had already resolved unless it was a big murktide.

[Reeplcheep]

Played some more leagues. The deck feels bonkers good against combo but has a lot of trouble vs other fair decks. Plow was too awkward with 4 cavern and Shacklegeist was not cutting it. Mostly you weren’t quite able to deal with or race big creatures like kaldra or murktide. Usher makes daze live and actually matches well vs ragavan, especially OTP.

Hanger Executioner could be an option to deal with murktide but It seems clunky.

I’m thinking of the following:

4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial

4 Mausoleum Wanderer
3 Usher of the Fallen
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Skyclave Apparition


I think this is a good balance between tribal stuff and good legacy cards. You get 8 of the best cards in delver, and 16 of the best cards in D&T. You get the full 2 colour delver manabase plus a basic plains and 2 caverns.

Not getting to run the full 4 cavern is annoying but actual white mana is too sketchy otherwise. And cavern can’t daze.

That leaves 15 “bad cards”. The 8 lords are on rate and you still have 23 spirits. Wanderer and usher aren’t the most insane cards but they do a good job of pushing people into daze.

[FTW]

Played some more leagues. The deck feels bonkers good against combo but has a lot of trouble vs other fair decks.

Very good reason to run 0 Spell Queller and 4 Swords to Plowshares main then.

What "fair" decks are you losing to? Are they fair mana denial? If so, I wonder if the deck is losing to its unreliable manabase.

2-color UW mana should normally look something like this


4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
other lands

I wouldn't emulate Delver's mana because they have 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder to fix and their curve is low enough to not care about getting Wastelanded by most other decks. Without Xerox, you need more reliable mana and you can't afford to lose lands to nonbasic hate. 4 Tundra seems like free losses to D&T, Lands, etc. StP is easier to cast when you have 10 ways to get basic Plains. Blue fetches make it too hard to find basic Plains. +4 Vista.

Fox has written volumes about this. Basically, fair decks try to beat UW by cutting you off white mana. Without white mana, UW can't interact with creatures and loses. The most reliable way to prevent this is by using more basic Plains and relying less on Tundra. Prismatic Vista was a huge boost to UW decks, letting you cheat up the "Plains" count without reducing the "Island" count.

Vs fair decks I would not fire off Wastelands at decks like Delver, only at special targets like Urza's Saga, Karakas, Field of the Dead, Dark Depths.... Most Xerox decks have more reliable mana (Brainstorm + Ponder & low curves) so they will recover from 1-for-1 land trades faster, while this deck has 3 cmc creatures to play. Maybe that means you want something like 3 Wasteland 2-3 Caverns as lands, instead of 4 Wasteland.

[Reeplcheep]

Very good reason to run 0 Spell Queller and 4 Swords to Plowshares main then.

What "fair" decks are you losing to? Are they fair mana denial? If so, I wonder if the deck is losing to its unreliable manabase.

2-color UW mana should normally look something like this


4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
other lands

I wouldn't emulate Delver's mana because they have 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder to fix and their curve is low enough to not care about getting Wastelanded by most other decks. Without Xerox, you need more reliable mana and you can't afford to lose lands to nonbasic hate. 4 Tundra seems like free losses to D&T, Lands, etc. StP is easier to cast when you have 10 ways to get basic Plains. Blue fetches make it too hard to find basic Plains. +4 Vista.

My next 2 leagues I went 4-1 and 3-2. One loss was to mana denial vs standstills, but it was the stifles not the wastelands that got me there. The other 2 losses were entirely to dying to the second murktide after plowing the first.

Delver has 8 cantrips to find mana sources, but I have 7 actual mana sources in their place: 2 cavern 1 plains 4 vial. That should more than cancel out I believe. Without cantrips I don’t have the need for t1 basic island as much as delver, so based on your “basic plains” strat Mesa might be better than delta in this deck.

I do want to fit a moorland haunt into the deck as flood insurance but I am not sure how.

Other notes: Kataki was a house vs various artifact things.
Rip/relic are decent vs murktide if I don’t want to splash for reb.
Usher and the tokens were both considered to be worth removing by the opponents which is pretty great for a 1 drop. I think it is worth the slot to turn on daze.

I really want to keep the vial + daze plan as I think it is a really sound strategy. If you don’t have to play cards as bad as merfolk does.

Exhibit A: (https://twitter.com/reeplcheep/status/1441839128421670912)

[Reeplcheep]

Another possible way to beat murktide is MD relic of progenitus and replace usher with StoneBinder’s Familiar

[dte]

Another possible way to beat murktide is MD relic of progenitus and replace usher with StoneBinder’s Familiar

Triple nerf on familiar ("one or more", "only once each turn", and "during your turn") makes it pretty bad and likely not a solution. With relic you have a 2-cards combo for a slow growing doggy.

[Reeplcheep]

Triple nerf on familiar ("one or more", "only once each turn", and "during your turn") makes it pretty bad and likely not a solution. With relic you have a 2-cards combo for a slow growing doggy.

Any card from any person anywhere is a bit of a buff (it counts opponents forces on your turn) but I agree it is probably too bad.

[FTW]

Stonebinder seems really bad. It's difficult to trigger. As a turn 1 1/1 slow grower (worse than Bloodhall Ooze, which sees no play in any format) it doesn't force the opponent to play into your Dazes or use their Daze. So they can just save their Dazes for your 2-3 mana creatures instead of using Forces on your turn. Forcing a creature is already unlikely with Cavern + Vial. If they somehow do, you get rewarded with an Isamaru that missed early damage? Seems bad.

Usher seems much better. It's small and unassuming, but unchecked it will snowball and solo kill them faster than most 1-drops can on an empty board, so they're forced to play into it while you can sit back with answers. Stonebinder forces you to play another effect to grow it, forcing you to play into them.



Delver has 8 cantrips to find mana sources, but I have 7 actual mana sources in their place: 2 cavern 1 plains 4 vial. That should more than cancel out I believe.

That only works if those mana sources tap for the colors of mana you need.

2 Cavern + 4 Vial cannot cast Swords to Plowshares or some SB cards. They only help you play high CMC spirits (quantity of mana vs quality of mana). That's where I could see it running into problems. Lack of access to basic Plains and colorless flood may be where it's stumbling. Changing the fetchland configuration away from 4 Delta or 3 Misty in the above lists (Island-heavy) may help improve the quality of mana sources. You should be able to StP anything when you're only on 2 lands, fast enough to interact with Marit Lage & Murktide, without worrying about mana denial keeping you off it.



Without cantrips I don’t have the need for t1 basic island as much as delver, so based on your “basic plains” strat Mesa might be better than delta in this deck.

Good point. Maybe you don't need as many basic Island then and can run more Tundras there (for Daze). You won't need more than 1 basic Island in play most of the time.

And if you're losing to Stifle, extra duals are better than off-color fetches. You don't have Brainstorm or Delve or Escape or other payoffs for fetches, so non-UW fetches are much less good for you than for most decks.


//16 colored sources
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains

//5-6 colorless sources
3-4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
0-1 Moorland Haunt


That seems like more reliable mana. On paper, at least. You could even go below 8 fetches for tier 2 duals (Seachrome Coast, Hallowed Fountain)

[Reeplcheep]

Usher seems much better. It's small and unassuming, but unchecked it will snowball and solo kill them faster than most 1-drops can on an empty board, so they're forced to play into it while you can sit back with answers. Stonebinder forces you to play another effect to grow it, forcing you to play into them.

Good points.


That only works if those mana sources tap for the colors of mana you need.

2 Cavern + 4 Vial cannot cast Swords to Plowshares or some SB cards. They only help you play high CMC spirits (quantity of mana vs quality of mana). That's where I could see it running into problems. Lack of access to basic Plains and colorless flood may be where it's stumbling. Changing the fetchland configuration away from 4 Delta or 3 Misty in the above lists (Island-heavy) may help improve the quality of mana sources. You should be able to StP anything when you're only on 2 lands, fast enough to interact with Marit Lage & Murktide, without worrying about mana denial keeping you off it.

Good point. Maybe you don't need as many basic Island then and can run more Tundras there (for Daze). You won't need more than 1 basic Island in play most of the time.

And if you're losing to Stifle, extra duals are better than off-color fetches. You don't have Brainstorm or Delve or Escape or other payoffs for fetches, so non-UW fetches are much less good for you than for most decks.

I think you are right that from a manabase point of view I need to decide how tribal I am going to be. I can go either UW “merfolk” or cantripless “delver” but somewhere in the middle won’t let me cast my spells.

UW “Merfolk”


20 Lands
4 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

11 Spells
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial

28 Creatures
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
3 Usher of the Fallen
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Supreme Phantom
3 Shacklegeist
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Skyclave Apparition
3 Hanged Exectutioner

SB
3 Kataki, War’s Wage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Remorseful Cleric
4 Spell Queller
2 Force of Negation
2 Nebelghast Herald

More tribal focus, no spells that costs white, and 6 spirit answers to murktide. Shacklegeist wasn’t enough by itself but with executioner it may be good enough. Daze is being cut to 2-3 copies for the bigger URx delver decks anyways right now.

Cantrips-less “Delver”

21 Lands
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Volcanic Island
3 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls

16 Spells
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

23 Creatures
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
3 Usher of the Fallen
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Skyclave Apparition

SB
4 Pyroblast
1 Mountain
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest In Peace
3 Kataki, War’s Wage


Less spirits but I get RIP, Blasts, and Plow.

[Reeplcheep]

In my experience playing the deck, as well as the showcase recap from everyday eternal, all that matters right now is answering murktide.

What is the best solution in people’s opinion?

Plow plus sideboard REB?

Shacklegiest plus executioner?

Topplegeist plus a bunch of mishras baubles?

[FTW]

Plow + SB something. Could even be Path to Exile. In the matchups where you need it (Murktide, Marit Lage, Griselbrand) Prismatic Ending wouldn't help and you don't care about giving them +1 basic as much as having a 1-cmc answer to their big threat.

REB is also a 1 cmc answer but splashing red makes the manabase more fragile, and many of those decks play Wasteland/mana denial. They can try to waste you off red or white to remove your answer. Better to play UW with more stable mana (easy access to basic plains) so you can rely on your answer.

With Shacklegeist you can run into tempo issues where they EOT Bolt a spirit and suddenly you can't tap out their lethal attack, forcing a chump block with Shacklegeist (2-for-1 Bolt).

[Reeplcheep]

Plow is good, but giving them 8 life gives them a lot of time to find a new one. UR delver gets delirium quite quickly, perhaps we could copy the UR list and make topplegeist work. We don’t have the surveil but have more enchantments/artifacts/creatures in the first place.

Taking the challenge 2 delver list: (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-09-27#kentaro_hokori_nd_place)

Red lands -> white lands
Ponder -> portent (because of SotL)
6 removal spells -> 6 3 cmc spirits
Brainstorm -> vial (because of SotL)
4 iteration + 10 1 mana threats + 4 2 mana threats -> 8 1 mana threats 8 2 mana threats 2 more baubles.


18 Lands
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

20 Spells
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Portent
4 Bauble

24 Creatures
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Topplegeist
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Supreme Phantom
3 Drogskol Captain
3 Skyclave Apparition

SB
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Spell Queller
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest In Peace
3 Kataki, War’s Wage


Overall you trade card quality for the mana advantage of Vial, but the core remains pretty similar.

This avoids the tempo issues of shacklegeist and gives the deck some card velocity/selection.

[FTW]

Delirium will be hard. Just adding random Baubles isn't enough because you're not also playing 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder (fast cantrips to fill yard) or Surveil creatures. You won't get Delirium as easily. Also Baubles are bad and don't really count as velocity/selection.

Even if you can force Delirium, Topplegeist has a similar problem to Shacklegeist. With Plow/Path you spend W to permanently answer a problem. With Topplegeist you spend W to temporarily lock it down and think you have an answer. Then they EOT Bolt your creature or attack your graveyard, and suddenly they "unlocked" the Murktide you thought you answered, while you have no tempo to search for another answer. If Murktide is a big problem for this deck, why use an unreliable answer? It just gives the UR Delver player more outs to outplay you. You can just spend W to end it for good.

If 8 life is too much time for a tribal deck, maybe the clock is the problem. Do you find the deck slow to finish games? How good is Supreme Phantom? On a wide board lords are great, but on an empty board (more common vs fair blue) a 1/3 flyer is bad. Maybe some Phantoms should be other 2/x 2cc spirits (Shacklegeist?). Or at least boarded out vs UR?

Remorseful Cleric could be boarded in vs UR Delver. The ability attacks both DRC and Murktide. The body trades with Delver and Ragavan. Seems good.

[Reeplcheep]

Delirium will be hard. Just adding random Baubles isn't enough because you're not also playing 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder (fast cantrips to fill yard) or Surveil creatures. You won't get Delirium as easily. Also Baubles are bad and don't really count as velocity/selection.

Even if you can force Delirium, Topplegeist has a similar problem to Shacklegeist. With Plow/Path you spend W to permanently answer a problem. With Topplegeist you spend W to temporarily lock it down and think you have an answer. Then they EOT Bolt your creature or attack your graveyard, and suddenly they "unlocked" the Murktide you thought you answered, while you have no tempo to search for another answer. If Murktide is a big problem for this deck, why use an unreliable answer? It just gives the UR Delver player more outs to outplay you. You can just spend W to end it for good.

Tested a league with it. Everything you said was correct, I just thought it was worth testing.

In the end I am having the most success with the “fuck it, play 4 path SB 4 Plow main” approach. Path helps with the lifegain problem and unlike gy hate lets me take advantage of moorland haunt. Going up to 2 haunts has felt good as we don’t have brainstorm to mitigate screw.

Both Spirit of the Labrynth and Kataki, War’s wage are very very good in the meta right now. Daze feels very strong with both vial and mausoleum wanderer. I still think the shell has a lot of power it just needs tuning. It’s possible a few Nebelgast Herald could help the murktide problem, especially in conjunction with haunt.

[FTW]

The latest Challenge meta, with so few basics, is even more reason to run maindeck Path to Exile here. There's anti-synergy with Daze, but in the scenarios you need PtE most the extra land doesn't matter much.

[Reeplcheep]

If I try the delirium idea again Oust could be good. It and topplegeist are both murktide answers that make the other better. It also has less of a lifegain problem.

[Borg]

Hohoho

Millicent, restless Revenant

https://deckstats.net/cards/Crimson+Vow+Commander/?lng=en

That's a serious boost for UW spirits.

[Reeplcheep]

Hohoho

Millicent, restless Revenant

https://deckstats.net/cards/Crimson+Vow+Commander/?lng=en

That's a serious boost for UW spirits.

How reliably do you think we can get 3-5 spirits on the battlefield?

What do you think of Dorothea, Vengeful Victim?

[Borg]

@reeplcheep
Yes, easier said than done, however, it may be possible with Lingering Souls .

Dorothea : the front looks ok, imo. The problem is in the back ( enchantment )
Who do you put this on ?
You need evasion AND survivability for that creature or it's worthless.

Just brainstorming here, but if the deck could have more full board hexproof and more lords it might work out.
say
4 Captains
4 Phantoms
3/4 Phantasmal Illusion. If they can copy a Captain you give both hexproof and both +1/+1 and +2/+2 to any other spirits.

Not saying this will work but it may be worth trying.

[FTW]

Millicent seems unplayable. It doesn't boost anything UW spirits was trying to do.
If you use tokens to help cast it (Lingering Souls, Spectral Procession, Moorland Haunt) then it loses payoff. The ability doesn't trigger with tokens. A vanilla 4/4 flyer isn't worth those hoops.

Dorothea is interesting. Not sure it's playable but it has potential as a flying deathtouch wall. You can leave it on defense as an early 4/4 flyer to stonewall DRC, Delver, Endurance, most creatures. If they attack into it you trade 1-for-1, then Disturb it before attacks for an advantage. Otherwise it buys tempo to get more threats and disruption online. I like that in a pinch you have a way to send it to the grave (attack for 4) so you can Disturb it. That may not be worth a full card slot, with so many playable 2s, but it's interesting.

I would not go out of your way distorting the deck to support the Aura side. The payoff is not good enough. But it's good incidental value if you can also get tempo/defense from the front side, maybe as a 2-of.

[Reeplcheep]

It still has the “go away” problem, but they printed a 3 cmc creature answer to murktide.

Dreamshackle Geist

{1}{U}{U}
Creature — Spirit
Flying
At the beginning of combat on your turn, choose up to one —
• Tap target creature.
• Target creature doesn’t untap during its controller’s next untap step.
3/1

[Reeplcheep]

I have been doing more testing. The core of the deck seems so good but it’s missing something. Combo and control matchups seem great but against any fair deck I just get out valued or don’t have enough pressure to finish in time. I revisited the delirium idea but it was usually bad.

SotL/Kataki/Skyclave/vial are all so good right now. The 8 thoughtcast deck is very common and so is URx. Sideboard juke of Court of Grace was decent against the removal.deck piles that control consist of nowadays. The deck really needs a champion of the parish style 1 drop to finish the game quickly as well as some card advantage that works through SotL. Moorland Haunt is quite good in that regard but it is hard to justify more than 2.

Thoughts on this:

Cemetery Illuminator
{1}{U}{U}
Creature — Spirit

Flying
Whenever Cemetery Illuminator enters the battlefield or attacks, exile a card from a graveyard.
You may look at the top card of your library any time.
Once each turn, you may cast a spell from the top of your library if it shares a card type with a card exiled with Cemetery Illuminator.

1. It’s card advantage that works through SotL. The deck is entirely instants or creatures so the chances of drawing are pretty good.
2. It has a decentish body
3. In my experience with Kaya Orzhov Usurper and General Kudro, incidental graveyard hate is good.
4. I believe this would let you alt cast daze or fow from your library on your opponents turn. Since it is not an alt. Cost
5. It provides more exile effects, so it might make Stonebinder Familiar playable.

Familiar is the closest thing to a champion of the parish that spirits has. Perhaps with this on tribe way of exiling a card every turn (rather than relic) it can be playable? We have 4 plow 4 Force of Will 2 Mausoleum haunt and 6 of some combinaation of Illuminator and Skyclave. Not to mention opposing forces, solitudes, plows etc.

[Reeplcheep]

Draft exile list.

4 Stonebinder Familiar
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Supreme Phantom
3 Skyclave Apparition
3 Drogskol Captain
3 Cemetery Illuminator

3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Moorland Haunt


20 lands plus 4 vial should compensate for no cantrips.
Spirit count is 25 which is reasonable.
11 instants gives makes it not that unreasonable to cast with Illuminator.
Blue count was helped at tad by Illuminator, now it is 25.
Things that exile count is 16
It could be that familiar doesn’t grow enough as mentioned above, but it is worth revisiting imo.

[Borg]

Soulherder seems to have nice synergy with the Familiar and Illuminator.
You could even bounce the SotL and get out of the draw restriction at the end of your turn.

[Reeplcheep]

Soulherder seems to have nice synergy with the Familiar and Illuminator.
You could even bounce the SotL and get out of the draw restriction at the end of your turn.

Soulherder is good but wants to play with strix not supreme phantom. To build around it sufficiently I would be worried it would just be bad Esper Vial.

[Borg]

I know it's off color but look at this Spirit.
Laelia, the Blade Reforged
Looks like a great combo with SotL

[Reeplcheep]

I know it's off color but look at this Spirit.
Laelia, the Blade Reforged
Looks like a great combo with SotL

Laelia is originally what got me thinking about this. I just thought Illuminator would work better with the counter magic and didn’t require splashing. It’s definitely a consideration.

[Reeplcheep]

Usher has been the best 1 drop in practice. I am thinking of trying this again.

What about Jitte? It helps with fair creature matchups, and it makes good use of all the tokens. It is possible it got power crept out by all the ginormous 2 drops.


3 Drogskol Captain
3 Skyclave Apparition
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
3 Usher of the Fallen
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
2 Shacklegeist

4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Uwezawa’s Jitte

4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
2 Moorland Haunt

[FTW]

Looks good. What have been the bad matchups so far?

[Reeplcheep]

SotL and Kataki are a house vs 8cast. And you beat up on combo.

Bad matchups are anything with big creatures that can’t get hit by Skyclave and/or oodles of white removal. Jesksai saga (murktide), GW depths (lage, endurance), D&T (solitude, kaldra). It irks me that the deck feels bad against most of the tier 1 decks since it gets to play so many good cards for a tribal deck.

Edit: a possible fix would be to switch moorland for karakas. Moorland has been quite good at smoothing but perhaps my creatures don’t die often enough. Karakas is faster but doesn’t help grind.

[Reeplcheep]

The Jitte experiment went ok, I got a lucky 4-1 and a 1-4. I still feel frustratingly close to something good. The core feels so good but it is hard to find the right oomph to get it to beat fair decks.

20 lands
15 UWx good stuff + vial
19 spirits (lords plus d&t staples)

It’s the last 6 slots that are hard.
Jitte/shackgeist/usher was ok but not impressive.

One thought I had was revisiting Dorothea, Vengeful Victim in conjunction with spectral sailor. She is basically a Char that lets you save your Plowshares for murktide. Since she dodged bolt it think it is reasonable to consider a removal spell for stuff like Delver and ragavan. You can save her from herself with karakas and she clocks fast on your flying 1 drops. Being a blue spirit “removal spell” helps quite a bit with your blue count and spirit count too. The backside is playable imo at 3 mana. Since it is a spirit not an angel, it ups wanderer plus supreme phantom from 3 damage to 10 damage.

Sailor lets you start on basic Island more, and is less risky to put an aura on than wanderer. You would need to cut the jaunts for karakas to make her castable, but that also makes Skyclave more castable. And both of the new suggestions have inbuilt flood insurance that works through SotL.

Overall more flying plus faster clock should hopefully mean we can win races rather than try to control the board ineffectively.


4 Drogskol Captain
3 Skyclave Apparition
3 Dorothea, Vengeful Victim
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
2 Spectral Sailor
4 Mausoleum Wanderer

4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas

[FTW]

What did you go 4-1 and 1-4 against? I think that matters more than the variance between those records.

[Reeplcheep]

Karakas plus Dorothea meant I was winning against URx. They both do a good job of walking ragavan so I can save plow for murktide.

I was losing against fair non blue and 8cast. Possibly due to the lack of jitte.

[Reeplcheep]

One of the original spirits guys got a 5-0 (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-league-2021-12-11#utopia_mycon_-) this build is more of a “protect the Illuminator” build. Rattle chains was great in my testing since there is so much removal. But Illuminator was pretty bad, so much spot removal makes a 3 cmc creature that needs to untap iffy.

I am still losing quite a bit. The relic plus Stonebinder’s Familiar build wasn’t too bad. The main problem is that even though spirits has a good core, having to fight through both blue hate and elves hate is really rough. When you have to fight through PE/blazing volley/massacre & carpet/blasts/veil it is really hard to win games. My most successful “clean” build is below.


3 Drogskol Captain
3 Skyclave Apparition
3 Rattlechains
4 Supreme Phantom
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
3 Usher of the Fallen
4 Mausoleum Wanderer

4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Wasteland
1 Moorland Haunt

[Reeplcheep]

Some notes from lots of leagues on this below. This deck is maddening, it feels so close. You get to play so many good cards that all have synergy with each other. But it never feels like it quite gets there, I definitely had a sub 40% winrate.

White spot removal is everywhere so any of the graveyard value options aren’t amazing. Daze to protect your vial from counterspells and ending did feel great.

Delver and Elves are the best decks. So you get thrashed post-board fighting through blue AND x/1 hate. Trying to beat end the festivities + pyroblast or carpet + Plague Engineer is really hard on top of the 7+ maindeck removal spells everyone is running.

Dorothea was great as a removal spell/clock but very colour intensive.

The other guy on spirits, utopia mycon, swears by cemetery Illuminator. But as a 3 mana creature that dies to everything i never got to cast a card off of it. With so much white removal right now your creatures aren’t dying much anyways.

Laelia is good but screws up your blue count and mana.

Stonebinder Familiar + relic wasn’t bad but wasn’t amazing. The other gy exile effects like cemetery Illuminator or moorland haunt improve the familiar but hurt each other.

Rattlechains is good vs spot removal but increases your vulnerability to boardwipes considerably (since it usually is replacing a lord)

Fow plus vial makes it very likely to flood out, but when you don’t have either of those cards you can often be land screwed. Smoothing options are limited: cantrips don’t work with SotL, Once Upon a Time makes your mana shakey, and the utility lands aren’t super powerful.

Murktide is still a big problem since even if you plow it you lose the race.

[Reeplcheep]

My possible solutions:


Hanged executioner is a way to beat targeted removal that doesn’t rely on the graveyard and can answer murktide. Kira is similar but is vulnerable to blast on the stack and karakas.

Glasspool Mimic is a way to smooth draws that plays well with vial, FoW and SotL. It also can be pseudo-card selection by copying the most relevant effect. Double Drogskol is also very powerful so I think it is not that much below rate on the front side. 4 vial + 4 mimic +18 lands is actually more reliable mana than 18 lands + 8 cantrips.

Shacklegeist is a decent but fragile answer to murktide. The hope is with glasspool Mimic and hanged executioner it will be more consistent. It is less vulnerable to wipes than Rattlechains and easier to cast than Dorothea.

Trimmed counterspells for a better vial density.



4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats (least likely white dual to play around daze imo)
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Glasspool Mimic

4 Vial
4 Plow
3 Daze
3 Fow

2 Usher of the Fallen
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
3 Supreme Phantom
3 Shacklegeist
3 Skyclave Apparition
3 Drogskol Captain
3 Hanged Executioner

[FTW]

If you're losing to X/1 hate + blue hate, does it make sense to max out on lords? You really don't want to lose to Blazing Volley effects, and shouldn't have to. 4 Captain also helps insulate you against spot removal, especially if you can flash it or Rattlechains in response to removal. Is that enough to make a difference?

As good value as Usher is, I wonder if it's baiting you into tapping out too much, giving opponent openings to safely resolve removal without bluff factor. Especially with Rattlechains in the deck, holding up 2 mana has value once you already have an attacker.

Going harder on 1/1 tokens main seems risky if you're losing to X/1 hate. Or is the plan to make tokens main (to beat spot removal), then board out some for lords vs the X/1 hate?

[Reeplcheep]

If you're losing to X/1 hate + blue hate, does it make sense to max out on lords? You really don't want to lose to Blazing Volley effects, and shouldn't have to. 4 Captain also helps insulate you against spot removal, especially if you can flash it or Rattlechains in response to removal. Is that enough to make a difference?

Drogskol is the worst card in the deck vs pyroblast though. Rattlechains did help vs the targeted removal but hurt vs the board wipes.

My thought was that mirrorpool was a way to increase lord density without losing interaction. Perhaps I should go back up to 8 lords and trim the executioner and shacklegeist to 2 ofs. Now that I am more disciplined on saving my plows and accepting ragavan hits, murktide isn’t quite as much of a problem as boardwipes and blast.



As good value as Usher is, I wonder if it's baiting you into tapping out too much, giving opponent openings to safely resolve removal without bluff factor. Especially with Rattlechains in the deck, holding up 2 mana has value once you already have an attacker.

When I ran Rattlechains I changed to Ascendant Spirit for that reason. It wasn’t super impressive vs white removal and losing utility lands to play 4 basics lead to flooding out.

[Reeplcheep]

The huge amount of spot removal seems to be the biggest problem. The below build still isn’t doing very well but it is winning more. The key changes were 4 Glasspool Mimic as a way to have smoothing that plays nicely with vial and SotL. 4 Glasspool plus 4 drogskol plus 4 Rattlechains for the max amount of Hexproof.


4 Drogskol Captain
3 Skyclave Apparition
4 Rattlechains
2 Dorothea, Vengeful Spirit
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
2 Usher of the Fallen
4 Mausoleum Wanderer

4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Glasspool Mimic

[Borg]

Why not Phantasmal Image instead of the Mimic ?
Cheaper, can copy the Captain just as well and can be vialed in as a 20/20 if needed.

[Reeplcheep]

Why not Phantasmal Image instead of the Mimic ?
Cheaper, can copy the Captain just as well and can be vialed in as a 20/20 if needed.

Image is not a land. 18 lands with 3 drops is pretty sketch, especially when your vial is less likely to stick around nowadays.

Mimic is pretty comparable to ponder for a land or ponder for a image, except it doesn’t get hit by SotL

[FTW]

Yeah, I like Mimic here. Captain is a lot better at 8 copies, when you have a reasonable chance to enable the hexproof shield on both.

How does it test? Are you still losing to spot removal?

[Reeplcheep]

Yeah, I like Mimic here. Captain is a lot better at 8 copies, when you have a reasonable chance to enable the hexproof shield on both.

How does it test? Are you still losing to spot removal?

It feels better but still not amazing. Rattlechains plus Drogskol plus mimic has provided the big boost vs spot removal that I needed. I am losing mostly to green decks that go bigger (12post/elves/blue zenith) or heavy sideboard hate (gunshot my dude, REB my lord, end of festivities or carpet t2 PE t3 choke) Getting hit by x/1 hate and blue hate is rough.

[Reeplcheep]

I am doing better vs control decks with the extra hexproof but I am still losing a lot. Mostly postboard games or degenerate decks like oops/reanimator/8cast. Perhaps the sideboard just needs to be mapped out better.


4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will

4 Mausoleum Wanderer
3 Usher of the Fallen
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
3 Rattlechains
3 Supreme Phantom
3 Skyclave Apparition
3 Drogskol Captain
3 Glasspool Mimic

2 Gutshot
2 Kira, The Great Glass-Spinner
3 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Graffigger’s cage


Map would be
+ Kira cage fon - 2 plow 3 fow/daze vs blue control
+ gutshot fow fon cage - rattle usher vs elves
+ gutshot Kira -fow -1 SotL vs ur
- apparition vial 1 plow+Leyline cage fow fon vs reanimator
+ Kataki fow -usher 1 supreme vs 8 cast

Thoughts?


Cards I am losing to most and why I am trying the answers above:

End the festivities/plague engineer: I don’t think there are many good sideboard answers. I just am trying to mainboard as many lords as is reasonable.
Blasts/choke/carpet: vial and basics plains helps vs island hate. Kira should help with getting my lords blasted.
Chancellor of the annex & allosaurus shepherd: these shut off all my interaction. I was trying to hit both of them with cage so I can run path for murktide, but cage wasn’t good enough OTD or vs chancellor. Switching path to gutshot lets me use leylines against reanimator and hopefully gut shot is still good vs ur.

[Reeplcheep]

Doing ok with the above. Rattlechains is great as CA vs the ending.dec piles, but matchups where creatures are trading it is lacklustre. It would be helpful to have a way to generate extra ca/bodies without relying uncapping like cemetary illuminator

I am thinking of going back to the original disturb plan. Instead of Patrician Geist as a “disturb lord” I am thinking of Brine comber. It is better against removal, as a lingering souls lite. And the extra spirit is probably more important than the cost reduction if you are at the point of disturbing stuff. Lantern Spirit would be the extra 1 drop. The backside is pretty bad but with SotL or brine comber it should be worth half a card at least, and you get value even if you need to chump with it early. Dorothea, Vengeful Victim has been great for me as a Char with flashback.

The below is my draft that incorporates the above ideas. But it still keeps the core deck and the mimic+Drogskol part that has been my best innovation so far.

4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Aether Vial
3 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will

4 Mausoleum Wanderer
2 Lantern Spirit
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
3 Brine Comber
2 Dorothea, Vengeful Victim
4 Supreme Phantom
3 Skyclave Apparition
3 Drogskol Captain
3 Glasspool Mimic

2 Gutshot
3 Rattlechains
3 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Graffigger’s cage

[Borg]

Could you find room for 1 Mikokoro, center of the sea?

[BirdsOfParadise]

Lantern Spirit would be the extra 1 drop.
Lantern Kami?

[Reeplcheep]

The ragavan ban might make this deck better. Without ragavan snowballing, we can wait to answer their 3 power flyers with Skyclave and Dorothea. Dorothea may not seem obvious but it is a on tribe “endurance” vs delver and hits hard vs combo. This lets us save our plows for murktide cards which was a huge problem. Hopefully less gutshots help too.ragavan getting banned also improves prismatic ending, which makes rattlechains more likely to 2 for 1.

I think the following hexproof pile has promise:


4 Wasteland
2 Karakas
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Force of Will

4 Mausoleum Wanderer
2 Usher of the Fallen
4 Spirit of the Labrynth
4 Rattlechains
3 Dorothea, Vengeful Spirit
3 Skyclave
4 Drogskol Captain
3 Mirrorpool Mimic

3 Kataki, War’s Wage
3 Court of Grace
2 Graffdiggers Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Force of Negation
1 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile


Some thoughts: the secondary one drop is real bad. Maybe spectral sailor isn’t as bad as usher of the fallen. Or maybe I play no more 1 drops and just a few supreme phantoms

I expect bant uro + removal piles to be very common, not sure what is the best sideboard option.
Court of Grace
Court of Cunning
Kira, Glass Spinner
Hikori, Dust-Drinker


Additional removal path vs on thin ice vs prismatic are all interesting.

[FTW]

Ragabanned probably favors this deck, as you can now save StP for Murktide and run slower answers like Skyclave.

3 Court of Grace seems excessive. What matchup is that for?

[Reeplcheep]

Ragabanned probably favors this deck, as you can now save StP for Murktide and run slower answers like Skyclave.

3 Court of Grace seems excessive. What matchup is that for?

Bant control seems like the big winner of this ban. Some delver decks are running multiple court of cunnings in a similar role.

[Reeplcheep]

Gravelighter
{2}{B}
Creature — Spirit
Flying
When Gravelighter enters the battlefield, draw a card if a creature died this turn. Otherwise, each player sacrifices a creature.
“It appears only to those whose lives are ending, welcoming them to their fate.”
2/2

Could this be the hard removal for murktide we need? 3 cmc, answers TNN and murktide, and it also can be card advantage to help plow through stuff like Ice-fang coatl. It also has a decent amount of synergy with the bodies from Usher of the fallen or Moorland Haunt.

The flash from rattlechains/vial improves the effect drastically, and mausoleum wanderer lets you turn on the draw a card effect even against white removal or combo.