View Full Version : MultiColor Creatures - MCC
I'd like to build a competitive Multicolor Creature deck.
Why do I think this type of deck can be succesful ?
1- Multicolor creatures give you an edge in power/ability over their equivalent single color creatures. compare Reclamation Sage with Knight of Autumn to get the idea.
2- The mana base is there with Pillar of the Paruns and Ancient Ziggurat to go cherrypicking among all 5 colors.
3- There's a wish card Glittering Wish that allows you to actually play the game with a 75 card deck and keep all your silver bullets at the ready in your SB.
What cards should go in ?
Tidehollow Sculler : this seems to be an ideal T2 drop. Automatic 4-off. Check opponent's hand, cripple him somewhat, follow up on T3 with ...
Meddling Mage : once you have seen your opponent's hand your Mage is no longer flying blind and you'll have a pretty good idea of what you're up against and what to call with the Mage. 3 MD + 1 SB seems best to me.
Knight of New Alara on T4 and you have two 4/4's to start your beatdown. 3 MD + 1 SB. 2 copies seems not enough imo as you like to pump your creatures sooner rather than later. The fact that their effects stack and they can boost each other is another reason to play 3 copies, I think.
Mother of Runes / Giver of Runes is necessary T1 for protection. Currently favor a 3/1 split over 4/0 or 2/2.
Knight of Autumn : an absolute power card in this setting imo. Artifact&Enchantment destruction, life gain or simply a 6/5 beater for just 3 mana. 3 MD.
Deputy of Detention : excellent creature who can deal with everything Knight of Autumn can deal with + creatures and Planeswalkers on top of that. Only downside is his power 1. This deck can have him operate as a 3/5 however ( or more with multiple Knights in play, but let's stay down to earth ) 3 MD + 1 SB.
Rhox War Monk : a 6/7 with Lifelink may be too good to pass up, especially if you have a Sylvan Library in your deck as well. 2 MD, could go down to just 1 if another "must have" creature shows up. Suggestions ?
Kunoros, Hound of Athreos : 1 MD copy as this card is just good by itself and even better with a Knight.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest : top card already, being a 6/6 instead of a 3/3 doesn't hurt. 1 MD + 1 SB.
Edric, Spymaster of Trest : card draw and a potential 4/4 for 3CC gives him a MD slot.
Noble Hierarch is a card I don't know if she truly belongs in this deck. Idem for Abrupt Decay
SB cards are mostly self explicatory, I guess.
Some input/feedback/suggestions would be highly appreciated.
The deck currently looks like this :
//CC1
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Mother of Runes
1 Giver of Runes
//CC2
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Meddling Mage
3 Glittering Wish
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
//CC3
3 Knight of Autumn
3 Deputy of Detention
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
//CC4
3 Knight of New Alara
//Lands
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Ancient Ziggurat
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
//Sideboard
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist
1 Meddling Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Kelsien, the Plague
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Dovin, Hand of Control
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Abrupt Decay
drekonja
12-22-2020, 02:22 PM
Generally, tribal vial decks are usually the best bet, because of Cavern of souls and Unclaimed territory to support that and vial can be cast over colorless or Mountain mana. Good example are slivers. But again, these strategies may be better in modern, not much point to port into legacy if you bringing like two cards that are not legal in modern and that just because to have chance of superfast combos in the format. But in legacy at least you can abuse Arcum's astrolabe (if it will not get banned even in legacy), that then naturally includes Ice-fang coatl and Yorion, sky nomad. It will require a lot of basics though and not sure how Niv-Mizzet reborn can be good in legacy.
The strategy reminds me of my UW liege deck I am brewing in modern though :)
Mr. Safety
12-22-2020, 02:24 PM
It's a cool idea, but I wonder if it's just one turn too slow. Spending a turn casting Glittering Wish in order to answer something might give a window to actually deal with your answer, or play around it. Your list actually looks akin to Maverick or Humans, both of which are competitive decks, along with a fairly new deck in Esper Vial. I think those decks in particular would give you a really good idea on how to approach a creature-based toolbox deck. One element that really powers up Humans and Esper Vial is Aether Vial, which gives all kinds of strategic advantages. Maverick leans on Green Sun's Zenith. Those are the two cards that Glittering Wish is replacing, so the ability to grab spells as well as creatures is not insignificant. In the current mid-range brawl-fest that legacy is centered around, this could be a way to go over other decks.
Reeplcheep
12-22-2020, 06:51 PM
5c multicolour decks have a large advantage over 5c multicoloured decks since you can run 4 unclaimed territory 4 cavern of souls but only 4 pillar. Pillar also doesn’t cast key cards for creature decks like gas, vial, or in your case, living wish.
Humans has been done. You should pick a tribe that already has legacy playable cards in a few colours and then fill in the gaps imo with lords.
Possibilities include knights (knight of autumn/murderous rider/knight of the reliquary)
Spirits (spirit of the labrrynth/eidolon of the great revel/skyclave apparition)
Pirates (Hullbreacher/free booster/faththom fleet neckbreaker)
Rogues(brazen borrower/notion thief/cunning mightbonder/acquisition expert/oonas blackguard/shardless agent)
Advisors(Kambal/Tomie/leovold/Teeg) no good lords though
Clerics(mom, cpriest, cleric of life’s bond/edgewalker/canoeist/arbiter)
Wizards(Mindcensor/bob/meddling mage/obstructionistquasali pridemage)
Mr. Safety
12-23-2020, 06:54 AM
5c multicolour decks have a large advantage over 5c multicoloured decks since you can run 4 unclaimed territory 4 cavern of souls but only 4 pillar. Pillar also doesn’t cast key cards for creature decks like gas, vial, or in your case, living wish.
Did you mean 5c multicolour tribal decks have a large advantage over other 5c decks? I was a little unclear. It seems like it was implied by mentioning lords, I was just puzzled...
kinda
12-23-2020, 07:36 AM
"2- The mana base is there with Pillar of the Paruns and Ancient Ziggurat to go cherrypicking among all 5 colors."
If you're committed to this I'd build this into an Umori, the Collector deck.
In your list though I like the 1/2 cmc things you picked out but would try to find better things over these:
//CC3
3 Knight of Autumn
3 Deputy of Detention
2 Rhox War Monk
They're just not good enough in your md in my opinion, but r strong glittering wish options.
I should probably point out here that it is NOT the intention to build a Tribal deck but rather find the best/strongest multicolor cards ( spells and creatures ) and see if they can work together in a competitive deck.
5c tribal is mostly built up by creatures and lands with limited room for PW's enchantments, instants and sorceries.
The multicolor deck I'm looking for would actually revolve around Pillar of the Paruns and Glittering Wish and would have access to all these card types, not only creatures and lands. ( Pillar of the Paruns CAN be used to cast Glittering Wish btw )
The reason I think a deck like this can be competitive is because multicolor cards are usually superior in power/effect compared to their single color equivalents and Glittering Wish allows you to play with 75 cards, giving you access to possibly some of the strongest silver bullets out of your SB.
With Glittering Wish you can just go get an Oko (PW) out of your SB, or a leovold (Creature), an Abrupt Decay (Instant) or a Supreme Verdict (sorcery) for that matter.
Of course this deck would have lords as well. Knight of New Alara is not just a lord, he's a super lord, giving not just +1/+1 but at least +2/+2 and to some even +3/+3 per copy.
The main question though is, as Mr. Safety pointed out, can it be made fast enough ?
That's why I included Hierarchs ( who should maybe be Birds instead )
I tried Wild Cantor at first and maybe gave up too soon on them.
They can give you some early speed and are still useful later on as potential 3/3 creatures for just 1CC.
Maybe Coiling Oracle deserves to be in there for their ramp ability.
I think the current deck has still a lot of room for improvement at all CC levels.
Like, Oko can probably take the place of 1 Knight of Autumn
and Supreme Verdict is something you probably want a copy of in your SB as well.
Mr. Safety
12-23-2020, 08:46 AM
IThat's why I included Hierarchs ( who should maybe be Birds instead )
I tried Wild Cantor at first and maybe gave up too soon on them.
They can give you some early speed and are still useful later on as potential 3/3 creatures for just 1CC.
Maybe Coiling Oracle deserves to be in there for their ramp ability.
I think the current deck has still a lot of room for improvement at all CC levels.
Like, Oko can probably take the place of 1 Knight of Autumn
and Supreme Verdict is something you probably want a copy of in your SB as well.
I think Birds might be a necessity, simply for having access to all 5 colors. It also flies, which does come in handy on occasion against Depths. I don't think anything that accelerates at 2 mana is worth including like Coiling Oracle; you're better spent playing on-curve. You could make an argument for Uro, but that's 3 mana. If you wanted to include Uro, I think the obvious place to cut is Rhox War Monk (which I love but isn't really legacy playable anymore.) The other acceleration could be Chrome Mox, simply because it can provide for additional color stability alongside ramp. If you imprint a 2-3 color card it will give you those colors.
One card that is a 2-drop that might be worth playing is Baleful Strix. It becomes a 3/3 flyer with Knight of New Alara and provides much needed velocity.
I think Shardless Agent and Bloodbraid Elf are also options for providing insane value. One way to offset the cost of Glittering Wish is to get something else for free, like a free card off Agent/Bloodbraid. You have the acceleration with Birds to get to 3-4 mana, so it could be a very powerful way to gain inevitability.
Just a rough outline:
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Glittering Wish
4x Brainstorm
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Shardless Agent
2x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Knight of New Alara
18x Creatures/PW's (whatever mix you think will be the best)
20x lands
The more I think about this, the more I think it makes sense to basically work it as a 5-color Shardless Bug deck. You get access to all the currently good mid-range cards (Uro, Oko, etc.) but you add in other high-value cards (Agent, Bloodbraid), and the best multicolor disruption (Decay, Ashiok, etc.) The real concern will be Delver (Wasteland/Daze) decks and fast combo. You'll be set up well to fight the mid-range slugfests but be natural prey to Storm, Sneak/Show, Reanimator, and Depths.
The more I think about this, the more I think it makes sense to basically work it as a 5-color Shardless Bug deck. You get access to all the currently good mid-range cards (Uro, Oko, etc.) but you add in other high-value cards (Agent, Bloodbraid), and the best multicolor disruption (Decay, Ashiok, etc.) The real concern will be Delver (Wasteland/Daze) decks and fast combo. You'll be set up well to fight the mid-range slugfests but be natural prey to Storm, Sneak/Show, Reanimator, and Depths.
That is a brilliant suggestion.
Getting Glittering Wish off a Shardless seems like great value. Same for Tidehollow Sculler and Meddling Mage.
EDIT : added new lineup
//CC1
4 Brainstorm
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Swords to Plowshares
//CC2
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Meddling Mage
3 Glittering Wish
3 Baleful Strix
2 Abrupt Decay
//CC3
4 Shardless Agent
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
//CC4
2 Knight of New Alara
2 Bloodbraid Elf
//Lands
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Ancient Ziggurat
3 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
//Sideboard
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Oko, Thief of Crowns
1 Meddling Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dovin, Hand of Control
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Abrupt Decay
Special mention for Aminatou, the Fateshifter as she takes the place JTMS.
Aminatou can also set up a cascade and her Flicker ability synergizes very well with Teferi, Oko, Knight of Aurumn, Deputy, Strix and even Sculler.
Teferi also has added value as he can bounce, draw, then be flickered. His +1 ability also has its use as it can give Glittering Wish Flash, which makes for quite a difference.
No Uro atm as I think the deck might be better served by Kunoros. Having both in the SB is an option though but they are an nonbo of course.
Manabase also WIP.
Reeplcheep
12-23-2020, 04:48 PM
yah I meant tribal. You have to ask yourself a few things when you are making the deck imo:
5c snow exists and gets to run multicolour cards AND single colour cards AND avoids most land hate. Whats the advantage of pillar vs astrolabe?
Is niv-mizzet reborn good enough?
interplanar beacon is an extremely strong land if you aren't doing tribal. Could you do a multicolour superfriends?
Looks like this deck got some excellent cards in MH2.
Let's start with General Ferrous Rokiric
A multicolor 3/1 for 3cmc is average.
What puts him over the top though is
1- his "hexproof from monocolered" : the most common removal cards can't target him : StP, Bolt, Fatal Push ...
2- in a multicolored deck, he can generate an insane amount of Golems - especially when factoring in any Cascade effects.
3- The Golems are White&Red, meaning they also benefit from the Knight of New Alara , so we're talking about possibly 6/6, 8/8 golems ... for free ...
And how about this possible addition : Grist, the Hunger Tide
1- Grist is a Creature while in your hand, so you can use Ancient Ziggurat to cast him.
2- His +1 Ability lets him generate potential 3/3, 5/5 ... insects for free.
Another card with some potential might be Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1- With a Knight of New Alara in play this is a 4/4 for just 2 mana
2- with an ability to get multiple creatures in play at end of turn.
3- unfortunately Pillar of the Paruns and Ancient Ziggurat cannot be used to fuel this ability
4- and his handywork does not trigger any Cascade.
75 suggestion + a maybeboard
//CC1
4 [M12#165] Birds of Paradise
4 [DST#91] Aether Vial
//CC2
4 [ALA#202] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [FUT#156] Glittering Wish
4 [2XM#191] Baleful Strix
4 [RTR#141] Abrupt Decay
3 [2XM#210] Meddling Mage
//CC3
4 [EMA#206] Shardless Agent
1 [THB#229] Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 [UMA#202] Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 [MH2#202] Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 [MH2#198] General Ferrous Rokiric
//CC4
3 [ARB#70] Knight of New Alara
2 [C16#184] Bloodbraid Elf
//Lands
4 [DIS#176] Pillar of the Paruns
4 [ZEN#219] Marsh Flats
4 [CON#141] Ancient Ziggurat
2 [TMP#322] Reflecting Pool
1 [VMA#323] Underground Sea
1 [VMA#322] Tundra
1 [2XM#377] Swamp
1 [VMA#311] Savannah
1 [2XM#373] Plains
1 [VMA#293] Bayou
//Sideboard
1 [SHM#243] Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 [WAR#221] Teferi, Time Raveler
1 [C15#49] Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 [2XM#210] Meddling Mage
1 [CN2#77] Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 [THB#222] Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
1 [ARB#70] Knight of New Alara
1 [GRN#183] Knight of Autumn
1 [KLD#183] Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 [MH2#202] Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 [MH2#198] General Ferrous Rokiric
1 [LRW#248] Gaddock Teeg
1 [WAR#229] Dovin, Hand of Control
1 [RNA#165] Deputy of Detention
1 [WAR#228] Ashiok, Dream Render
//Maybeboard
1 [GPT#149] Wild Cantor
1 [AFR#238] Volo, Guide to Monsters
1 [2XM#227] Voice of Resurgence
1 [MH1#216] Unsettled Mariner
1 [GRN#203] Swiftblade Vindicator
1 [RTR#201] Supreme Verdict
1 [TMP#272] Soltari Guerrillas
1 [ALA#188] Rhox War Monk
1 [M21#224] Radha, Heart of Keld
1 [GK2#43] Orzhov Pontiff
1 [RNA#189] Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 [THB#221] Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
1 [C20#11] Kelsien, the Plague
1 [RTR#218] Judge's Familiar
1 [A25#205] Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
1 [INV#237] Captain Sisay
1 [ARB#143] Bant Sureblade
Reeplcheep
10-18-2021, 01:58 PM
Almost the entirety of this deck is modern legal. Unless you are specifically targeting something it feels like modern might be a better fit for the power level of this deck.
In modern it is more reasonable to run niv-mizzet too which seems very powerful in this deck.
Almost the entirety of this deck is modern legal.
Missing double lands, Strixes, Leovold, Uro.
That's already quite impactful
Reeplcheep
10-18-2021, 02:27 PM
Missing double lands, Strixes, Leovold, Uro.
That's already quite impactful
I forgot about Leovold. Uro is pretty lacklustre with only a few fetches and no cantrips. Duals and strixen do make some amount of difference for sure.
It just seems underpowered… almost every deck in legacy has fast mana or force of Will or wasteland. The only exceptions are burn and elves (fireblast and cradle are essentially fast mana too).
This deck seems most similar to 4c loam. When brewing I recommend starting from a proven template. Vial maverick died a long time ago. Since mox diamond doesn’t work very well here I think you should replace vial with chrome mox or more dorks
Your points are accurate Reeplcheep.
Uro : not effective.
Aether Vial : underwhelming as well, especially because the deck only has Birds at 1CC and when you don't have the vial on T1 I have the feeling it's too late afterwards and they become dead draws.
I did some goldfishing and the card that was really spectacular on T2 was General Ferrous Rokiric
Once he's in place, the 4/4s start coming out quickly ( especially with a cascade on T3 ) and those provide fast beatdown as well as solid defense.
Besides the Birds, I'm trying out Once upon a Time as a T1 card and like it so far because :
1- my mana base doesn't prevent this spell from being played on T1 ( being free to cast )
2- this deck is mostly creatures and lands and OuaT always gives me something usefull
3- as an opening spell this obviously helps fleshing out your starting hand.
//CC1
4 Birds of Paradise
//CC2
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Once Upon a Time
4 Baleful Strix
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
2 Glittering Wish
1 Sylvan Library
//CC3
4 Shardless Agent
3 General Ferrous Rokiric
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
//CC4
3 Knight of New Alara
2 Bloodbraid Elf
//Lands
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Marsh Flats
4 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Bayou
This deck is quickly evolving into a General Ferrous Rokiric deck.
That card is a powerhouse in this deck.
With him out, nearly every card you play also generates a 4/4 Golem.
Casting instants can generate 4/4s on the spot.
Abrupt Decay : destroyed opposing permanent + 4/4 Golem.
Or something like this :
Cast Shardless Agent -> create 4/4 Golem -> cascade into and cast Baleful Strix or Tidehollow Sculler -> create another 4/4 Golem -> draw a card from strix / remove a card from opponent's hand with Sculler.
That is 3 mana for FOUR creatures + a card draw or card removal.
I played a couple of practice games against 5c Humans today and the General won both.
After weathering the first couple of rounds the 4/4s started coming out to stabilize and took over the game soon after.
Glittering Wish proved too slow and was taken out and replaced by Eladamri's Call
This means a couple of golden bullets were moved from SB to MD Kunoros, Hound of Athreos and Orzhov Pontiff .
Wild Cantor has improved value. It can help the general come out T2 and if cast after the general it's 1 mana for a 1/1 + 4/4.
More practice games to come.
Current deck
//CC1
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Wild Cantor
//CC2
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Baleful Strix
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
2 Lightning Helix
2 Eladamri's Call
//CC3
4 Shardless Agent
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
//CC4
2 Knight of New Alara
2 Bloodbraid Elf
//Lands
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Marsh Flats
4 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Swamp
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Bayou
TBC
The biggest challenge to designing fair 5c is having a functional manabase. You need to be able to consistently play your cards through both draw variance and the opponent's disruption. Mana consistency issues are why this doesn't work more often in Legacy. (Modern doesn't have Waste+Port+B2B so you can be greedier)
Long ago, Domain Zoo was a thing. 5c just with fetches + duals. But that deck hasn't been viable for a long time and always had weak mana.
DRS and Astrolabe enabled 4c-5c greed, but they got banned.
The other recent 5c decks are tribal decks. Tribal allows Cavern of Souls + Unclaimed Territory (+Sliver Hive) + Aether Vial for a lot of mana fixing. But you don't want to play tribal.
Instead of tribal, you want to use these:
2- The mana base is there with Pillar of the Paruns and Ancient Ziggurat to go cherrypicking among all 5 colors.
If you go that route, the problem with them is that they can ONLY tap for multicolor and creatures. There's no option to just tap for 1 colorless or use on activated abilities, so they're even more limiting than Cavern. They shoehorn you into playing mostly multicolor creatures and avoiding activation costs.
Sure, you could still run some monocolor cards or multicolor noncreatures (like you could play off-tribe in a Tribal deck), but then your mana base works against you. You can get flooded with lands that can't cast the cards in your hand, making it easy for opponent to just Waste/Port the other one.
For example, in one of your above decks you're trying to play Brainstorm and Swords to Plowshares with a whopping 10 lands that can't cast either!
I see 6 fetches + 2 blue lands, not even close to enough to rely on Brainstorm to fix hands (usually 8 fetch + 6 blue). At that point, why even play Brainstorm? What is that card doing for you vs the times it's dead or bad?
So if you want to build this around 4 Pillar + 4 Zig, there's a real risk-reward tradeoff to playing things that aren't multicolor creatures. It's even harder than playing off-tribe stuff in Tribal decks.
1- Multicolor creatures give you an edge in power/ability over their equivalent single color creatures. compare Reclamation Sage with Knight of Autumn to get the idea.
This is usually true at higher CMCs. But for 1 cmc, multicolor creatures tend to be worse (because Hybrid costs are easier to pay). Legacy's best 1-mana creatures and spells are all monocolored. So there is a problem with finding good 1 drops for the curve, and Legacy is too fast to just skim on 1 drops.
Judge's Familiar and Dryad Militant should be top contenders because of their disruptive abilities, at least disrupting the opponent's superior game plan if you can't make as good a threat.
3- There's a wish card Glittering Wish that allows you to actually play the game with a 75 card deck and keep all your silver bullets at the ready in your SB
I like this part. Although it's not necessary to play 5c for that. You could play Bant or WUGb and still use Glittering Wish tech.
Moving away from your rainbow lands might actually make it easier to curve into Glittering Wish. For example, Pillar of the Paruns cannot cast T1 Birds of Paradise and Ancient Ziggurat cannot cast Glittering Wish, while you could do that with a regular Bant manabase.
Aether Vial : underwhelming as well, especially because the deck only has Birds at 1CC and when you don't have the vial on T1 I have the feeling it's too late afterwards and they become dead draws.
Glittering Wish proved too slow and was taken out and replaced by Eladamri's Call
I think the underlying problem here is not the speed of Vial or Wish but your overall curve. The decks above lack much going on at 1 mana. The curve really starts at 2-3 mana.
Legacy is a fast format. You can't skimp on the 1cmc spot. Tutors and Vial are just amplifying that your deck already did nothing interactive on turn 1, then you're spending another turn on development, so you're really starting the game a few turns later than the opponent. Then you're struggling to catch up playing only 1 card per turn. Lowering the curve should help.
Another build had a lower curve on paper (Brainstorm + StP), but they're hard to use with the mana so they don't really fill the role of 1 drops (hard to cast on turn 1, hard to cast with leftover random untapped land).
What if you try just playing more 1cc creatures that are easy to cast with your mana? Think
Wild Cantor
Judge's Familiar
Dryad Militant
They at least get you on board and interacting with the opponent earlier.
Edit:
10 1 drops should be a better start, making space by cutting 3-4 mana cards in your curve. Some 3-4 cmc stuff can be hidden in the Wishboard and accessed via Wish when you need them. The increased 1 drops will make it easier to trigger then general too.
Maybe something like this
//Lands: 20
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Savannah
//1 cmc creatures: 12
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dryad Militant
//2 cmc creatures: 12
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Baleful Strix
4 Meddling Mage
//3 cmc creatures: 8
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
2 Grist, the Hunger Tide
2 Deputy of Detention
//Spells: 8
4 Glittering Wish
4 Assassin's Trophy
//Sideboard: 15
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Knight of New Alara
1 Omnath, Locus of Creation
3 Endurance
2 Force of Vigor
SB can be adjusted to whatever bullets you want.
Maindeck I went for a quad-laser approach because the maindeck lacks card selection. Situtational bullets can be in the wishboard.
I went with Trophy over Decay because you don't have that much removal so you want to be able to rely on your answers. Decay misses a lot.
The green count is high enough for Endurance and FoV, also speeding up your early interaction against fast decks.
Edit2: I cut Prismatic Endings. The card is so strong but not being able to pay with Ziggurat or Pillar is a real problem.
I'll try out your suggestions, FTW.
I do miss the cascades though in your build as they are really bonkers with the General.
The general can be abused by casting as much multicolor spells as possible imo and cascade seems to be a perfect handle for that.
Also, the Knight of New Alara is an alternative win route that fits perfectly in the concept. He can elevate all these weenies into beatsticks at once.
Cascade and Knight have great synergy with the General. I just think they may be too slow for Legacy. The random cascades also get worse as the curve gets lower.
If you're really set on playing General with cascade and Knight of New Alara, consider Modern. That should be much easier to run in Modern. Legacy has to deal with fast tempo, mana denial, and fast combo. Bloodbraid and Knight are too likely to be stranded dead in hand or too slow to impact the game state.
Edit: In the Wishboard you could get really greedy with a few expensive bombs like Omnath, Locus of Creation or Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God. To increase your payoff for the multicolor shell.
That's disappointing to hear.
I have no desire to play modern at all.
That's disappointing to hear.
I have no desire to play modern at all.
Feel free to still try it out in Legacy.
Have you tested much against other Legacy decks?
Not yet, I just "discovered" the General two days ago :)
Bought 4 copies on cardmarket from a Swedish seller for 0.19€ a piece.
Captain Hammer
10-20-2021, 07:27 AM
All of the best multicolor creatures are humans. You barely lose anything going 5cc humans and playing Pillar of Paruns and C
All of the best multicolor creatures are humans. You barely lose anything going 5cc humans and playing Pillar of Paruns and C
At 1cc there's only Wild Cantor and at 2cc Meddling Mage but I see no other 2cc multicolor humans which are better than Tidehollow Sculler or Baleful Strix.
At 1cc there's only Wild Cantor and at 2cc Meddling Mage but I see no other 2cc multicolor humans which are better than Tidehollow Sculler or Baleful Strix.
Yeah, they're not multicolor so you would lose Glittering Wish and the General.
Most of the creatures in 5c humans are monocolored...
Noble Hierarch
Champion of the Parish
Mother of Runes
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Thalia's Lieutenant
Charming Prince
Kitesail Freebooter
Imperial Recruiter
Sanctum Prelate
Palace Jailer
Venser, Shaper Savant
Most of them are not multicolor. General is a human, but to trigger him you would need to replace the good humans with others that are multicolored.
Meddling Mage
Unsettled Mariner
Reflector Mage
Kelsien, the Plague
Orzhov Pontiff
...?
But then you lose most of the best humans.
Captain Hammer
10-20-2021, 08:56 PM
. General is a human, but to trigger him you would need to replace the good humans with others that are multicolored.
Meddling Mage
Unsettled Mariner
Reflector Mage
Kelsien, the Plague
Orzhov Pontiff
...?
But then you lose most of the best humans.
Theres a few other multicolored humans to abuse with the new human General 4/4 maker...
Shardless Agent
Knight of New Alara
Lavinia
Kambal
Mantis Rider
And I am sure a few others Im forgetting.
But I see your point, no reason to give up so many creatures just to be able to play Cavern of Souls, and Unclaimed Territory
Q: What is the ideal mana base for this deck ?
A: 20 lands seems like the right number so far.
4x Pillar of the Paruns and
4x Ancient Ziggurat are a given.
6x dual lands : a dual land for every color combination we have on T2 and a Plateau for the General.
4x Marsh Flats : the only fetch that can get all 6 duals.
That brings the total to 18.
2x Reflecting Pool : these two lands so far have shown to be critical, arguably the most important in the mana base.
Why ?
1. Obviously, in combination with Pillar and Ziggurat you can tap them for any color of mana but
2. they are especially effective in combination with the dual lands. They effectively become your second and third dual land of every type and they are highly effective in getting your 2cc spells out on T2.
Let's say you have an opening hand of a fetchland and a Reflecting Pool with
a. Tidehollow Sculler : fetch the Scrubland T1. T2 Pool and you can play Sculler.
b. Meddling Mage : fetch the Tundra T1. T2 Pool and you can play the Mage.
c. Abrupt Decay : fetch the Bayou T1. T2 Pool and your Decay is playable.
You get the idea.
FTW was also correct in stating we need more 1 drops.
Glad I followed his advice as the deck has a much more solid feeling with them.
So far I'm leaning towards 4x Wild Cantor for the simple reason that they can enable a T2 General and once the general is in place they are a 1cc spell for a 1/1 + a 4/4 critter.
Also nice about them is that you can cast one, leaving just one mana open, and still surprise your opponent with a Decay/Trophy by saccing them.
Judge's Familiar is another nice T1 drop that can potentially stop Thoughtseize or FoW to name a couple and that can turn into a 3/3 flyer.
3 of them seems the right number, leaving one spot for a Dryad Militant .
Decay and Trophy are just fantastic with the General.
A removal at eot and a 4/4 as a bonus who can attack on your upcoming turn or a removal during opponent's attack phase with an instant 4/4 blocker.
I upped the Knight of New Alara to 3 again as they are your second path to victory and with 7 copies between the general and Knight you will more reliably have at least one of them in your opening hand.
Note: none of these 7 cards are redundant.
Knight effects stack and the general creates another 4/4 if played over another General.
The deck has 3 open spots atm which are taken by Leovold, Kunoros and Grist.
SB is also still WIP.
Any suggestions or comments are welcome as I would really love for this deck to be competitive in a legacy environment.
//CC1
4 Wild Cantor
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Judge's Familiar
1 Dryad Militant
//CC2
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Baleful Strix
3 Meddling Mage
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Glittering Wish
2 Assassin's Trophy
//CC3
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
//CC4
3 Knight of New Alara
//Lands
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Marsh Flats
4 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Bayou
//Sideboard
2 Knight of Autumn
2 Deputy of Detention
1 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Meddling Mage
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Kelsien, the Plague
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dovin, Hand of Control
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
The deck looks a lot smoother with the lower curve and more 1cmcs!
Wild Cantor looks good for mana fixing and setting up General.
For the manabase, after 4 Pillar + 4 Ziggurat, I think the most important thing is that most of the other 12 lands can cast T1 Birds of Paradise or Wild Cantor. You really want those on turn 1 to curve out smoothly, ramp into T2 General, and fix colors. I forget the exact math on this, but I think that means approx 14 lands that can cast T1 Birds. Pillar of the Paruns already can't cast Birds, so that means maybe 10/12 of the other lands should make T1 green.
In your manabase you have many lands that don't make T1 green: 2 Reflecting Pools + Underground Sea + Tundra + Scrubland + Plateau. I think that will lead to mana problems and awkward curve outs. Even with Marsh Flats, you have to fetch Bayou or Savannah to play T1 Birds. That forces you to get black or white, without red or blue.
In the list I posted above, I had 4x Savannah + Mana Confluences. That was because they all cast Birds or Judge's Familiar on turn 1. Also, most cards in the deck have either green or white mana. Savannah+rainbow land can cast just about anything (except Baleful Strix).
If you want fetches and duals, maybe it should be a green fetchland + mostly green duals. Example:
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
Windswept Heath can get any land. You can also get T1 green mana + any other color of your choice, to help set up the turn 2 play. I think that will work better than the Marsh Flats package.
Reflecting Pool is strong on turn 2 but can't cast turn 1 Birds (or anything). Pool is also awkward vs Wasteland. Opponent can waste your Ziggurat/Pillar and then turn off Pool as well, a 2-for-1. So I would avoid too many Pools. If you want 2 Pools, then maybe play some Mana Confluences instead of non-green duals.
Note: Plateau is not needed to cast General. He needs R and W from separate lands, not the same land. Taiga + Savannah can cast General (or 1 of them + 5 color land).
Also, most cards in the deck have either green or white mana. Savannah+rainbow land can cast just about anything (except Baleful Strix).
Bumps forehead.
I was still going by "most cards have either white or black" : thus Marsh Flats + duals, but that was before I added Cantors, Familiars and Militant.
Now Windswept Heath and Duals obviously makes more sense and ups my green T1 sources from 10 to 12
Reflecting Pool is strong on turn 2 but can't cast turn 1 Birds (or anything). Pool is also awkward vs Wasteland. Opponent can waste your Ziggurat/Pillar and then turn off Pool as well, a 2-for-1. So I would avoid too many Pools. If you want 2 Pools, then maybe play some Mana Confluences instead of non-green duals.
Point taken.
1 Mana Confluence is certainly a possibility ( I don't own that card but I do have City of Brass, which is technically the same, correct, until I'm missing something that makes one better than the other )
I've also considered 1 Thran Quarry for this deck because of the staying power of the General but have still categorized it as too risky.
Note: Plateau is not needed to cast General. He needs R and W from separate lands, not the same land. Taiga + Savannah can cast General (or 1 of them + 5 color land).
I added a Plateau because during one test play I didn't get any Pillar, Ziggurat, Bird nor Cantor but did have a fetchland ... but no red source to go get.
Taiga solves this situation as well.
Thanks for the help/support FTW.
Thanks to your input this deck has become a lot stronger already.
May I suggest you play a few games with it as well.
Actually playing the deck is usually even more informative.
https://deckstats.net/decks/51702/1865193-mc-
Glad to be of help.
City of Brass is good enough. Mana Confluence is better vs Rishadan Port (City deals you damage when Port taps it!!). That's the only difference that comes up often in Legacy. Otherwise they're almost the same card. Don't waste money on Mana Confluence if you have City.
I had issues with Reflecting Pool when testing another 5 color deck (Dwarves), that's why I brought it up. There were awkward games vs Wasteland where the remaining lands couldn't tap for the right colors, and I would have been less mana-screwed if Reflecting Pool was any other 5-color land. Legacy is full of Wastelands.
I'll give the deck a try. It looks fun.
Have you tested much against other Legacy decks yet?
May I suggest you play a few games with it as well.
Actually playing the deck is usually even more informative.
We tested this against a few decks.
4-6 vs Burn (I usually start with Burn as a benchmark for "is this fast enough for Legacy?")
0-5 vs UR 2Delver
2-3 vs Goblins
1-4 vs BR Reanimator
When the deck worked, it was great. Sometimes I made multiple 4/4 tokens on turn 3 or went big with Knight. But other times I had a bunch of high cmc cards stranded in hand, had mana disrupted, or just lost to faster decks. As expected, there was a bit too much at the top end and not enough fast interaction with the opponent's plan. Sometimes the lands were awkward and couldn't tap for what I needed, especially after getting Wasted.
I thought the deck would at least do well against combo (Meddling Mage + Tidehollow), but Reanimator is too fast. It might be good vs slower combos.
I would try to speed up the deck and improve consistency. 4 Glittering Wish, a couple Once Upon A Time, more Grists main, and more stable mana. Knight of New Alara was cute but slow and dies to any removal... maybe fewer copies main and 1 in the Wishboard?
//Lands: 20
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Mana Confluence
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
//Creatures: 28
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Cantor
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Meddling Mage
3 Baleful Strix
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
1 Knight of New Alara
//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Grist, the Hunger Tide
//Spells: 10
4 Glittering Wish
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Once Upon A Time
//Sideboard: 15
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Kelsien, the Plague
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Knight of New Alara
2 Endurance
2 Solitude
BirdsOfParadise
10-22-2021, 02:40 AM
I’ve tried at various times to build a 5-color Pillar deck because I like decks that play too many colors. The sticking point is always the early game... what can you play for one mana, and how can you stop fast combo?
My approach — not that I ever arrived at anything playable — always hinges on blue. I figured that if most of the cards were blue, you could cast FoW. If all the cards shared a color (say, blue), you could accelerate with Chrome Mox. Then the problem changes from “how do I have early game” to “how do I recover the card advantage lost in the early game”. I dunno if that’s easier to solve, but I can imagine there being 3cc or 4cc bombs that let you catch up. That approach might lose Rokiric, which is the biggest payoff ever for multicolor and the heart and soul of your build, so who knows.
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&color=+%5E(+%5BU%5D)&cmc=+%3C=%5B4%5D&type=+%5BCreature%5D
That’s a Gatherer search for multicolor blue creatures with CMC less than or equal to 4... You’ve probably tried this, but maybe it helps.
Thank you very much, FTW, for taking the time to test this deck out.
The results against Burn and Goblins are encouraging.
Vs 2Delver needs more work apparently.
Reanimator is ... well ... Reanimator.
I must say your new build looks very promising and to the point, with all the "bling" removed.
16 T1 green sources for the Birds. Just wondering if those 4 painlands may not inflict too much damage.
Shaving off 1 Strix is likely a good move as he's the most difficult to cast on T2 at times.
Only 1 Knight seems like one too little but probably the right number main deck.
I always liked having OuaT in there as well as it lets you hold onto opening hands which you would otherwise (have to) mulligan. I eventually cut it because it doesn't trigger the General. Glad to see it back in there though.
If you're set on 4x Glittering Wish, maybe having 1 General in the SB is a good idea.
I’ve tried at various times to build a 5-color Pillar deck because I like decks that play too many colors. The sticking point is always the early game... what can you play for one mana, and how can you stop fast combo?
My approach — not that I ever arrived at anything playable — always hinges on blue. I figured that if most of the cards were blue, you could cast FoW. If all the cards shared a color (say, blue), you could accelerate with Chrome Mox.
Yeah, you've hit the problem on the nail. The deck just needs more early game. It's playing at Modern speed instead of Legacy speed. It needs more interaction on turn 1 and turn 0.
I tried to work with OP's shell (which is heavier in GWB and built around the General), but blue for FoW may be the answer. Even with Dwarves, I tilted that way too. Force just does so much to both police unfair decks and protect engine cards. Mox to accelerate hatebears seems good too. If the rest of the deck is blue-heavy, it's still possible to run 4x General. Free 4/4s are card advantage.
It might be possible to keep OP's plan and just play more turn 0 cards in the SB. I added Endurance and Solitude to interact with fast combo (Reanimator, Depths, Hogaak, Show and Tell). There are plenty of other non-blue turn 0 options like Surgical Extraction, Force of Vigor, Faerie Macabre, Leyline of the Void, Mindbreak Trap. OP's wishboard took up the whole SB with slow multicolor stuff. Maybe the wishboard just needs to shrink to make room for more hate: 7-8 turn 0 cards & 7-8 wish targets seems better.
Some more details about the test games.
The results against Burn and Goblins are encouraging.
I would have won even more against Burn if it wasn't for both Price of Progress and Eidolon of the Great Revel hating out what this deck is trying to do. Both added up to huge damage, often racing me by exactly 1 turn. Other games warped completely around those cards (e.g. Meddling Mage/Tidehollow takes them, then then Burn player flings bolts at hatebears to get them back). Otherwise, General represented a fast clock and was immune to burn!
I think both Goblins wins came from Wish for Orzhov Pontiff. Otherwise General is vulnerable to Munitions Expert and Knight dies to everything so it wasn't great to just power them out (and mana denial often made that impossible anyway). One game I thought I was getting there with General + 3 4/4s but they stabilized with Sling-Gang Lieutenant + Pashalik Mons.
Vs 2Delver needs more work apparently.
UR 2Delver felt unwinnable in the current build. That deck is too efficient at out-tempoing slower decks like this. The fact that Abrupt Decay can't kill Murktide Regent really hurt (also hurt vs Reanimator). I wished it was Assassin's Trophy.
Wasteland + "Bolting the bird" really messed up the mana. Wild Cantor could fix colors and ramp, but the card disadvantage makes a difference in these tempo games, and sometimes I just needed it to block Ragavan.
Knight was very weak in this match. 4 mana is very slow and it just dies to Bolt.
General was much much better than Knight. Not only does it generate board advantage but it dodges most fair removal in the format. It's that perfect mix of payoff and resilience. It was scary enough that it either forced a race or demanded FoW. One game felt potentially winnable after I got Meddling Mage on FoW and then curved out General on 4 mana (around Daze), but Murktide was faster.
I think this match would get better with 4 Dryad Militant. Militant shuts down DRC and Murktide, really slowing down their clock unless they answer it. That plus a few hatebears might be enough tempo to get to General and get there with 4/4s before Murktide does it. Boarding in Endurance should also help.
Reanimator is ... well ... Reanimator.
Reanimator should have been 0-5 too. I got lucky with opponent punting a match. They kept an "end step discard" 7-card hand on the play setting up for turn 3 Unmask+Reanimate, but that let me disrupt with turn 2 Tidehollow Sculler, turn 3 Meddling Mage, then Wish for Kuronos to lock them out. That was really the only way I could interact. They had to play slow enough to let hatebears do things.
If they just played fast under hatebears I could do nothing. So every other game they just mulled into turn 1 Serra's Emissary. Or turn 1 Griselbrand-> 4x Unmask/Grief to shred my hand -> Animate Chancellor & Reanimate my Meddling Mage naming Assassin's Trophy, go. That happened twice!
This matchup emphasized the need for turn 0 interaction. Endurance adds a lot. Even if you don't have it, playing around it slows them down and then they don't lock you out of the game on turn 1.
If you're set on 4x Glittering Wish
Glittering Wish did a lot in my few wins. Kunoros vs Reanimator, Orzhov Pontiff vs Goblins, Kambal vs Burn. The SB has so many silver bullets that lock out specific decks. I think you want access to them as often as possible. With only 2 Wish, you're not finding those cards in time to matter and might as well cut the wishboard.
Don't know about using Wish to set up General. It was mainly useful to tutor for situational answers or chain spells to make multiple 4/4s with General already out.
16 T1 green sources for the Birds. Just wondering if those 4 painlands may not inflict too much damage.
Depending on how you sequence and use lands, it might only be 2-4 damage in a game. That damage beats getting manascrewed and not being able to play what you need on curve. I had mana issues vs both Delver and Goblins.
Good point about the 4 Wishes.
They should not have to be used on getting a General from the wishboard.
The wishes should be used on silver bullets alright.
Were there any cards in the SB that you felt were not needed ?
Are Lavinia or Ashiok, for example too situational or not ?
If you'd have to rank the silver bullets in order of importance, what would be your order ?
I ask because I like your idea of reducing the silver bullets to 7-8 copies and use the rest on T0 interaction, especially if that's the deck's weak point.
And ... how did Grist do ?
Grist was good but I didn't see it often. I wanted more flexible board interaction in general so I went up to 2 copies.
I got Lavinia once vs Delver. She shut off Force and Daze, but at that stage I needed to worry more about Murktide and DRCs. Lavinia seems better in matchups I didn't test (Bant, Doomsday, Storm). I'd keep her for now. Although maybe Gaddock Teeg already handles the same cards.
Wish+Ashiok is too slow to stop graveyard decks. I would cut that and just board in 3 Endurance.
I never wished for Rhox War Monk. It seems redundant when Kunoros has lifelink too.
Kelsien is a bit slow. I got it once vs Goblins, but it only killed one goblin before dying to removal. Orzhov Pontiff is probably better vs 1/1s.
Edit:
//Possible SB
3 Endurance
2 Solitude
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Knight of New Alara
This keeps a lot of tools while also running more turn 0 hate.
Guttural Response
Decisive Denial
Grisly Salvage
Zealous Persecution
Drown in the Loch
Dovin's Veto
Z Persecution maybe instead of Pontiff ?
Gutteral Response is also tempting imo.
I took General Ferrous Rokiric back to the drawing board.
A creature that can stand tall on the battlefield and survive on his own AND generate 4/4 golems is simply too good to pass up.
The power of the deck is obviously in the 2cc category where you can cherrypick the best 2cc multicolor spells from the game and not only get their excellent effect but a 4/4 golem on top for free.
The weakness of the original deck was in the 1cc category.
I tried to make it an "all multicolor cards" deck but the 1cc cards are just not good enough. They offer too little and do not interact enough with the opponent.
I adjusted the mana base to have a more traditional opening, ( fetchland, basic ) then swith to multicolor mode and since the deck is mostly black and white I chose some of the best black and white 1cc spells that synergize with this deck.
Inquisition, Thoughtseize and Duress are great opening plays that can perfectly set up Meddling Mage & co.
Alternatively, Mother of Runes is a great addition to help Sculler and Strix stay on the board.
Thus, step 1 of the revised strategy : attack opponent's hand.
Step 2 : attack it even more ( with Sculler, MM ) or blow up what's already in play. ( Plow or Rip Apart )
Rip Apart is a good card in general because of its versatility but in combination with the general it's just great/fantastic.
Once opponent's hand and board are (at least somewhat) diminished step three brings out the General.
Kolaghan's Command is another addition to the deck because it is so effective with the General.
It can bring the General back to your hand if he got countered or removed in some way.
Destroy Vials, Chalices, Shadowspears,
Make opponent discard again or blow away the Ragavans of this world.
... and create a 4/4 golem on top.
Kaya, Orzhov Usurper is another card I love getting in hand. She can take care of annoying 0-1 cc permanents without breaking a sweat. If she gets accompanied by a 4/4 bodyguard it's even better.
Her +ability is good vs DRC and Murktide.
A card I have trouble evaluating is Silverquill Silencer.
It's clearly Orzhov's version of Meddling Mage, even the art, style, pose and colors are identical.
Meddling Mage can be very strong but can also be lackluster at times and that's where Silverquill Silencer might be a better alternative.
Peek into your opponent's hand with a discard spell T1.
T2 play the silencer and name what your opponent is most likely to play next. This can put your opponent in a bind. Hold back the named card and stunt his build-up or go ahead and take 3 life loss and grant us a card.
The possible card draw is an aspect which might be preferential as well over naming a card with MM which might not show up.
Silencer on Brainstorm, Ponder or FoW for that matter sounds sweet.
I'd like to hear other people's input on this card.
Anyway, I tried two practice games vs 2Delver yesterday and won both after two rather long games.
Got hit by Ragavan at some point and he twice exiled an Inquisition which immediately disposed of my General and the other time of KCommand, both of which would have tilted the game in my favour earlier.
Eventually brought a General back with KCommand in one game and from that point on the Golems took over.
Overall, lots of discard and board destruction seemed like a good strategy to take on 2Delver.
This new deck looks and plays much stronger imo than the earlier versions.
//CC1 - 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Mother of Runes
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
//CC2 - 16
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Rip Apart
4 Baleful Strix
2 Silverquill Silencer
2 Meddling Mage
//CC3 - 8
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
//Lands - 22
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Badlands
I like this general idea - lowering the curve, changing the manabase to allow good monocolor spells. It seems more viable.
To improve the mana (with fetches+duals+basics), you should probably either narrow down to 3 colors (XWr) or make blue a central color and run Xerox cantrips (UWbr). That's how other Legacy decks make functional manabases out of fetchlands + duals. Going 4 color without cantrips isn't really stable while Astrolabe and DRS are banned. Basically, I would think harder about which colors are most important to prioritize here to get good multicolor effects.
Some of the best multicolor removal is in BG (Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay, Grist, the Hunger Tide). Unfortunately that would put you in GBWR (4 colors without blue), which is not really viable unless you base it on a lot of green mana fixing, so I see why you cut green.
Without that BG removal, I think you definitely want Prismatic Ending in there. Even though it doesn't trigger general, it's just too strong and flexible.
I guess your main color options are:
BWR (Mardu - discard, premium removal, KComm)
UWR (Jeskai - counters, premium removal, Meddling Mage)
UWrb (4color - cantrip fixing, best multicolor cards of each)
You could try what you have above (4 color without cantrips) but I think you'll run into mana issues.
The things I considered for the mana base :
- the single colored cards are either black or white, so I run basic swamp and plains.
- the deck wants to start with black and has 14 sources to get it or with white which has 13 sources.
- from T2 on the Pillars can kick in which give an additional 4 cards for any color.
- to cast anything blue : 3 duals + 4 pillars + 8 fetches
- to cast anything red : 2 duals + 4 pillars + 8 fetches
- I upped the count to 22 lands with 8 fetches and in goldfishing I've continually gone rather smoothly to 3-4 lands
- you want to get to 4 lands to be able to cast two 2cc spells or a 1cc + 3cc
You may be correct though that the deck might run into some mana problems at times but I'd like to try it first before making any changes.
A nice leadoff land ( besides swamp ) is USea.
Followed up by the plains you can cast Sculler or Mage.
I try to keep any red sources till T3.
I cut green because the deck no longer needs the ramp.
Trophy, Decay and Grist are missed but Rip Apart, KCommand and Kaya replace them and seem just as effective if not more. IMHO.
Are there any specific targets that you're thinking of that prismatic has to deal with and that cannot be dealt with with Rip Apart ?
If you find the time FTW and you can squeeze a few games in I would really love to hear your experienced input on how the deck plays vs 2Delver now.
Thanks anyway for your time and input.
Forgot to mention, karakas is nice with 2 generals :)
If you're looking to improve the UR 2Delver matchup, mana stability is the answer. Wasteland tempo decks rip apart greedy multicolor midrange decks like this. Even if you find the current mana "stable enough" with 4 colors and 0 cantrips, wouldn't "stable x2" be even better (with cantrips or fewer colors)?
Have you tried testing it against other decks online or in paper?
Are there any specific targets that you're thinking of that prismatic has to deal with and that cannot be dealt with with Rip Apart ?
Prismatic Ending only takes 1 mana to kill cards like Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Chalice of the Void, Dragon's Rage Channeler, Mother of Runes, Aether Vial, Retrofitter Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Delver of Secrets, Chrome Mox, etc. Rip Apart needs 2 mana, which slows you down and also makes you more vulnerable to Wasteland/Daze/Thalia disrupting you off removal.
Prismatic Ending can also kill big things Rip Apart cannot kill: Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (3 colors), Marit Lage (1 color), X/X Construct tokens (1 color), Karn, the Great Creator with 4+ counters (4 colors), Jace, the Mind Sculptor with 4+ counters (4 colors), Endurance (3 colors), Thought-Knot Seer (4 colors), Knight of the Reliquary (3 colors), Tarmogoyf (2 colors), 4/4 Hexdrinker (1 color), Kaldra Compleat's Germ token (1 color), etc.
Rip Apart is a good card. Ending is just amazing in this format, especially in a 4 color deck.
Alright, solid arguments.
I was aware Rip Apart cost 1 more mana but the examples I was looking for ( which you provided ample ) were cards like uro, kaldra token etc which I didn't think off.
With regards to live playing, I'm in the drydocks.
The places I used to go to do not exist anymore and other daily life things have taken up most of my long time playing partner's time by now.
I do not play online. Maybe I should give it a try but wouldn't I have to buy the digital cards first then (tix?) How much real money would it cost to digitally purchase this deck btw ? I have most of my decks in paper except for the duals which I proxy.
So, let's say when it comes to mtg, I'm hungry but can't find much to eat 😉
Taking your suggestion of "mana stability" to heart, I think I prefer to go to 3 colors and the easiest color to cut is blue.
Meddling Mage can be replaced by Silverquill Silencer which seems a fair trade off, depending on what you're facing.
Baleful Strix can be replaced by Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
With 9 fetches, 11 sorceries, 7 instants and 4 Kroxa's the GY should have enough fuel for Kroxa.
The manabase consists now of 9 fetches ( 3 of each ) , 4 duals, 4 basics, 4 Pillars and Karakas.
There are still 22 multicolor cards, 16 single colors.
Prismatic ending can still get Uro, but 4+ cc cards are now out of the question.
//CC1 - 16
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Mother of Runes
2 Thoughtseize
2 Prismatic Ending
1 Duress
//CC2 - 14
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Silverquill Silencer
3 Rip Apart
3 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
//CC3 - 8
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Mathas, Fiend Seeker
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
//Lands - 22
4 Pillar of the Paruns
3 Marsh Flats
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
2 Swamp
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
//Sideboard WIP
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Solitude
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Kunoros, Hound of Athreos
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
I tested something very similar today, along with your 4 color version.
I went with this Mardu version
//Creatures: 19
4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
//Spells: 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Thoughtseize
4 Manamorphose
3 Kolaghan's Command
//Planeswalkers: 1
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
//Lands: 20
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
2 Scrubland
2 Plateau
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Manamorphose is an experiment to both help fix colors and double-trigger general in a turn.
Ragavan is also an experiment. He sort of functions as Mother of Runes (trades with their removal spell to protect your other guys), and if he connects then the Treasures help ramp and fix mana. T1 Ragavan allows potential T2 General.
In the 4 color (BWUR) version I found Rip Apart clunky (too slow or couldn't answer enough), so I cut down copies and added Prismatic Endings. That build also often stumbled on mana and I couldn't cast my cards optimally. Sometimes it worked and did the thing, but other times it stumbled too much. The best parts were the discard suite and General. I think streamlining it with 3 colors and faster interaction spells will help. Silverquill is also MUCH worse than Meddling Mage, I don't know that it's worth playing.
I also tried a different RUGW build with Brainstorm, Ponder, StP, Prismatic Ending, Ice-Fang Coatl, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, Teferi, Time Raveler, Expressive Iteration and Meddling Mage. These are all high power-level multicolor cards! This build beat UR 2Delver consistently, but it played out like a worse version of the Tier 1 Bant deck. I kept winning by playing typical Bant lines, did worst when I drew multiple red cards (General, Iteration), and often used cantrips to bury them. General could work in this build, but probably at only 2-3 copies as a late game engine, or at 4 copies in an 80-card Yorion build.
What a difference a card can make.
The missing ingredient : Lotus Petal
The strength of this deck is in its 2cc spells.
Lotus petal gives you the ability to start right away with a Sculler or Mage, followed up with another one of these on T2.
Lotus petal is card loss alright but Sculler makes up for it by removing a card from oppponent's hand as well and Strix lets you draw one.
Another frowned upon card is doing very well so far : Worldly Tutor
Card disadvantage again, but that disadvantage is nullified later on by all the free 4/4's it can provide you with.
WT also fits perfectly in the mana curve.
T1 Bird
T2 Sculler/Strix/Mage + Tutor for General
Kolaghan's Command is a 3-off imo because it allows you to play General with less fear of it being countered as you can get it right back from the GY.
Extra bonus : Worldly Tutor can fetch Grist.
Petals + Tutor also add to the GY, meaning the deck might be able to use Uro/Kroxa reliably.
In short, I think this version is already a lot faster and as a result more competitive.
//CC0
4 Lotus Petal
//CC1
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Worldly Tutor
//CC2
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Meddling Mage
4 Baleful Strix
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
//CC3
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
//Lands
4 Pillar of the Paruns
3 Mana Confluence
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Ancient Ziggurat
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
Tobitzki
11-18-2021, 11:26 AM
been watching this thread from the sidelines since the printing of the General. Good work folks, though I think we're a playable 1cmc hybrid spell away from being competitive (preferably a cantrip; Incubation comes close in a creature-heavy build).
Just a couple quick interjections:
1) I think as long as he's legal Ragavan is absolutely non-negotiable (ramp & color fixing!!)
2) Jegantha, the Wellspring
Thank you Tobitzki, excellent observations.
Ragavan : yeah ... I can't wait for him to be banned though as I hate the fact that he shows up in every Rx deck.
Need to add a Taiga too then.
I didn't know Incubation.
It can't fetch you what you want like the Tutor but it can create a 4/4 and it's no card loss.
Certainly worth trying.
Jegantha : another good suggestion. For just 1 SB spot this seems worth it.
Thx.
Captain Hammer
11-19-2021, 12:14 AM
been watching this thread from the sidelines since the printing of the General. Good work folks, though I think we're a playable 1cmc hybrid spell away from being competitive (preferably a cantrip; Incubation comes close in a creature-heavy build).
Just a couple quick interjections:
1) I think as long as he's legal Ragavan is absolutely non-negotiable (ramp & color fixing!!)
2) Jegantha, the Wellspring
Awesome suggestions.
Jegantha is definitely an autoinclude.
Incubation/Incongruity seems like a huge step up from worldly tutor. It triggers the general, isnt card disadvantage and doubles as removal spell in a pinch (nuking merit lages and murktides and such)
Incubation, Jegantha and Ragavan all look good.
I still think the fetch-dual manabase will be better if the deck reduces its colors (if playing against an opponent and not just goldfishing). 5 colors is risky. RW are essential for General, so it just depends on which tools you want with it. Some examples...
RUWg (cutting black)
//Companion: 1
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring
//1cc: 18
4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Incubation // Incongruity
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
//2cc: 13
4 Meddling Mage
4 Expressive Iteration
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
//3cc: 7
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
//Lands: 22
4 Pillar of the Paruns
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau
2 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
Multicolor count = 28 (+ companion)
Or WRUB (cutting green)
//Companion: 1
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring
//1cc: 15
4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
//2cc: 13
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Baleful Strix
1 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
//3cc: 7
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
3 Kolaghan's Command
//Mana: 25
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Plateau
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
Multicolor count = 24 (+ companion)
Sculler and KCommand are among the best cards to pair with the General imo.
Cutting green makes sense. You can replace anything you lose with similar effect cards in the chosen colors.
I'd replace one Plow with Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
Esper Sentinel seems a better fit for this deck than Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer for several reasons.
Taxing opponent and card draw seem like more useful abilities for this midrange deck than fast weenie damage, treasure generation and
spells off opponent's deck.
Ragavan needs to attack and connect to trigger his abilities.
Sentinel needs to do nothing.
Removing Ragavan is easier. A simple 1cc removal spell or a power 1 blocker is enough to neutralize him.
Removing Sentinel will either tax opponent or draw you a card.
Ragavan's legendary status means potentially 3 dead cards.
Multiple Sentinels in play are possible and their effects stack.
Ragavan needs red mana on T1. Awkward since you need UW, UB or WB on T2. Pressure on the mana base.
Sentinel blends right in with W cost. No pressure on the mana base.
The deck basically plays as a 3-color deck with a red splash.
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade joined the Meddling Mage squad for several reasons.
She's an automatic counter to FoW, FoN, Daze.
She also got better in the current meta because she can stop Evoke-effects like Endurance, Solitude and Grief
She can stop alternative cost spells like Snuff Out, Delve spells like Murderous Cut or Affinity spells like Thoughtcast.
She automatically counters all 0-cost spells like Mox Opal, Lotus petal, Ornithopter and Mishra's Bauble
Cavern Harpy
This card is just PERFECT for this deck.
Not only can it do its usual bounce tricks but with a general in play that's a 4/4 golem on top of it every time you play it.
Has extra value in this meta as a recurring counter/blocker vs Murktide.
Current deck :
// Companion
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring
//CC1 - 18
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Esper Sentinel
4 Incubation // Incongruity
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
//CC2 - 14
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Meddling Mage
3 Baleful Strix
2 Cavern Harpy
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
//CC3 - 7
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
3 Kolaghan's Command
//Lands - 21
4 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Plateau
2 Marsh Flats
1 Volcanic Island
Tobitzki
11-28-2021, 07:54 AM
a few thoughts:
I think there are 2 different directions to take this deck: 1) creature-heavy aggressive or 2) midrange-control. Both demand vastly different play patterns and deck construction.
On 2) -- midrange/control
a useful reference point would be the 4C General builds run by Modern streamer aspiringspike a few months ago (i.e. 4C good stuff with Chalice and curving out with Omnath): (e.g. here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FRTEximCgc&t=2439s)
Encouraging: AS pointed out the General's good position in Modern as he dodges most removal except for Drown, Helix, Prismari & K Command and W6 -- and well, those are ofc nowhere to be seen in Legacy.
Less encouraging: this build and those leagues really illustrate the gulf of difference that remains between the formats (Chalice with no Sol Lands; value 4-drops in a Daze-less environment; no worries about T1-2 combo kills; etc etc). Ultimately, without strong T1 disruption we can't build a viable Legacy deck and hence, what we can learn here is limited (multiple Generals are ok; Manamorphose seems pretty decent; Exit and PEnding are must-includes.)
The more direct reference is of course the Mentor plan: play reactive until your 3drop comes down and takes over. I'm not sold on the idea that Strix and Hatebears alone are enough here to play this game while avoiding to go blue xerox. Let's say we can afford not to play cantrips, the question then remainss: Can we reach a critical mass of blue cards to support Forces (e.g. 20)? And either way, I don't see us really competing with Mentor unfourntately: the way that the cantrip cartel that finds you early answers then powers out your finishing engine
On 1) -- creature/aggro
Here is also a Modern deck that's had some results with the General for our consideration: Domain Zoo (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=32876&d=451809&f=MO). Apparently did well in a field full of MH2 tribal, but really seems underpowered against anything unfair in our format.
In Legacy, the last successful Zoo showings were the Punishing Zoo (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22566&d=353815&f=LE) list that won the 2019 Leaving a Legacy Open out of nowhere (W6 meta) and in early 2020 a wild Naya Reclaimer/Zenith (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24297&d=369651&f=LE) list that won a medium-sized Hareruya event (Oko meta).
So we're trying to build a creature deck without Vial or Zenith; Reclaimer also doesn't fit. I think Tax Aggro is the way to go then and I don't mind Esper Sentinel to double-down on the Mana Denial axis along with 4 Judge's Familiar (I still think Ragavan is by far the better card here, but no point arguing:, Monke likely be gone by next week).
Some # of Thalias in the 75 would go well with that plan, as well as perhaps a Dovin, Hand of Control in the SB.
Lavinia is another great fit, perhaps more maindeckable than Meddling Mage.
More on the aggro version: run green over black. Strix doesn't fit our game plan and Tidehollow I don't think is a playable Legacy card in 2021. Instead I'd like to try Dorothea, Vengeful Victim (frontside pre-General, Disturb for after) and--only in the most aggressive of lists--Gallia of the Endless Dance.
Domri, Anarch of Bolas and Nahiri, Harbinger are decent PWs to consider then. Also, the creature-heavy build is the only one that can support Incubation, but the stronger card here might just be Once Upon a Time.
And finally: Do we want some form of mana acceleration?? More interesting options than Birds include: Wild Cantor, Simian Spirit Guide (both good with OuaT) or Chrome Mox. This question ofc also leads us back to the Monke...
About cutting black for green :
Personally, I think Sculler is a very effective card in this deck.
Play it T2, see what's in opponent's hand that can deal with a T3 General and take it away.
Knowing opponent's hand can also set up a very effective T3 MMage. ( like take away opponent's next card he'll likely play with Sculler on T2, then the turn after play Mage and name the next card your opponent is likely to play, taking opponent's tempo away )
Cavern Harpy and KCommand both pull more than just their weight. KCommand being able to bring a General back from the GY is not to be underestimated and allows you to cast the general aggressively and maybe into a counter.
Strix is the least necessary of the black spells but is still a very effective blocker, card draw and nice combo with Harpy.
I do think I'd go down to 3 though and bring the 4th MMage back in.
Dovin for the SB is a good suggestion. Thalia maybe. The deck has 13 instants/sorceries and taxing KCommand or Incubation seems unattractive.
In a vacuum Once upon a Time is a better card than Incubation.
But in this deck, when you consider the possible 4/4 for free and the additional option Incongruity offers vs something like a 20/20 Flyer, Incubation is the better choice imo.
On T0 OuaT is the best choice but when you look past T0 : 2 mana for a look 5 down + 1 land/creature vs 1 mana for a 4/4 + a look 5 down + 1 creature.
I used Wild Cantor before and found it disappointing. I found it a poor T1 play especially when you have no General to follow up with.
I originally thought I wanted to rush the general in Play by T2.
Now I feel that is not necessary. Better to set up the general in a normal curve.
T1 Sentinel/Bird/Incubation T2 Sculler/Mage/Strix T3 General.
SSG seems bad as it is useless on all 2cc spells.
Domri, Anarch of Bolas : the deck has 22 creatures that can NOT use Domri's mana.
Jegantha has been a fine addition, basically assuring you always have a multicolored spell up your sleeve even with an empty hand.
Tobitzki
11-28-2021, 12:43 PM
About cutting black for green :
Personally, I think Sculler is a very effective card in this deck.
Play it T2
Sorry, I want to stop you right there. There's a substantial number of decks that have killed you by T2. Non-blue really needs meaningful T1 disruption, which is why I find JF an acceptable T1 play. THS has even fallen out of fringe decks like Deadguy Ale if I'm not mistaken, and it competes here for space with the stronger UW 2drops (T1 Thoughtseize/Duress into Meddling Mage is a good idea; T2 2mana temporary discard into MM not so much.)
Cavern Harpy and KCommand both pull more than just their weight.
I just don't see what Harpy does without a General on the field. Like, durdle-bouncing 2-drops to draw an extra card doesn't seem powerful enough for this format. And K Command doesn't hit enough to be a consistent 2for1 currently (this might change). For on-color removal (your colors) that gives us triggers I'd prefer both Rip Apart and Vanishing Verse.
In a vacuum Once upon a Time is a better card than Incubation.
I haven't played with Incubation yet, but the fact that it can't fix our mana looks really bad. As you wrote, there actually is a considerable number of spells in the deck and whiffing is a real possibility. I mean we're trying to curve into a 3drop here and don't have cantrips or Vial. In Modern, W6 helps in this regard, but we really need some help to make these land drops.
SSG seems bad as it is useless on all 2cc spells.
Domri, Anarch of Bolas : the deck has 22 creatures that can NOT use Domri's mana.
These don't slot in to your above build, but might work well in an aggro version that's heavy on Naya colors. I'll try to put together a couple of decklists soon to illustrate what I have in mind.
General's good position in Modern as he dodges most removal except for Drown, Helix, Prismari & K Command and W6 -- and well, those are ofc nowhere to be seen in Legacy.
I agree, and this is one of the main reasons I see potential in General as a build-around. He dodges most commonly played Legacy removal: Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Prismatic Ending, Fatal Push, Snuff Out, Solitude, Skyclave Apparition, Unholy Heat, Gut Shot, Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt, Red Elemental Blast, Submerge, Fury, Darkblast, Dismember, Abrade...
For a creature, few cards answer it. That means you only need to shut off a few specific cards to untap with it and make free 4/4s. This leads to a viable build-around game plan, while you can't rely on untapping with most other creatures.
And finally: Do we want some form of mana acceleration?? More interesting options than Birds include: Wild Cantor, Simian Spirit Guide (both good with OuaT) or Chrome Mox. This question ofc also leads us back to the Monke...
Birds and Wild Cantor were tested in earlier versions. Chrome Mox is bad in multicolor (will tap for wrong color), probably worse than Lotus Petal.
I personally think Monke is the best option of these... Why play Lotus Petal when you can play "T: Lotus Petal"? Wild Cantor worked but is card disadvantage when the creature you play is removed. At least Monke trades 1-for-1 with their removal (forcing it out), buying tempo for the bigger creature whether he dies or makes the Treasure.
Less encouraging: this build and those leagues really illustrate the gulf of difference that remains between the formats
Don't focus so much on those specific Modern builds. They're built to a Modern meta. If you zoom out, you see 4c midrange is already Tier 1 in Legacy, just with different cards. Many are multicolor cards. There are already Legacy-playable cards and synergies to exploit.
PEnding and Exit are already very strong in Legacy "Bant Exit" (or whatever the latest UWGR decks call themselves). You'll never get Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath by looking at Modern decklists, but he's another easy auto-include in a 4c deck that wants to recast multicolor spells...
The more direct reference is of course the Mentor plan:
I think that's the wrong direction, and the result of trying to mimic a Modern deck too closely instead of looking at things that work in Legacy. Legacy Mentor needs many 1s and maybe even 0s. That's not what this deck is about.
Lavinia is another great fit, perhaps more maindeckable than Meddling Mage.
I figure Lavinia compensates for not getting to run Forces. Also good against combo and 8cast. It punishes everyone playing at Legacy-powered speed instead of this deck's 1-mana per turn fair Midrange (casual/Modern speed).
I'm big on Meddling Mage. But he is like Cabal Therapy/Curse of Silence. His power level is very dependent on the player's format knowledge and poker skills. Some players do not like these cards.
I tested this a while back. I mentioned it in another post but did not post the list.
//Creatures: 16
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
4 Meddling Mage
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Endurance
//Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
3 Expressive Iteration
//Planeswalker: 2
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
//Lands: 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
//Sideboard: 15
1 Klothys, God of Destiny
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Rip Apart
1 Wear // Tear
1 Guttural Response
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Veil of Summer
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Endurance
1 Null Rod
1 Terminus
It beat up on UR Delver (like Bant does) and performed OK overall on the back of the strong cards. Often it played out like a worse version of Bant. The snow mana got awkward, with the deck usually fetching Bant colors early and then only getting red mana later, which then forces you to bury General and ExIt with cantrips and getting minimal value from them, and then you just want the maindeck Sylvan and Endurance over the red stuff. Because of that, I think forcing Ice-Fang was a mistake. This whole concept would have worked much better with Astrolabe and Oko still legal.
I abandoned the deck after that little testing. But maybe there was potential in the shell, cutting Ice-Fang for some other multicolor 2-drop (Manamorphose?) and then cleaning up the manabase to support 4c.
The shell doesn't go as crazy with General as the others, but arguably making 4 4/4s instead of 2 4/4s is just win-more. Even 1 free 4/4 is enough to tilt a game when you're playing with this many high power cards. Maybe there's potential with this shell, with some adjustments.
Edit: Maybe something like this
//Lands: 21
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
2 Pillar of the Paruns
//Spells: 28
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Prismatic Ending
4 Manamorphose
4 Expressive Iteration
//Creatures: 11
4 Meddling Mage
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Multicolor count: 19
Tobitzki
11-30-2021, 07:37 AM
Modern ... Mentor
This is not how I meant these Modern references: While mostly theorycrafting I found it useful to just see the General in action for a bit, and those play patterns not the particular card choices--play reactive until the General drops--are very much reminiscent of (Legacy not Modern) Mentor builds. But the main lesson I took was that Manamorphose deserves testing as the mediocre-card concession for synergy here. I mentioned the "gulf between formats" precisely to point out the limits of this approach.
But I agree with most of your points here: as I wrote initially, fitting GFR into the established xerox shell may just be our best bet here. As I see it, once we're in Jeskai colors, 22 spells are pretty much a given:
4 BS | Ponder | Force | Swords
3 Exit | PEnding
Untapping with the General does seem doable as his only natural predator in the meta are stack interaction (especially Daze) and then ... Karakas and Teferi bounce I guess.
last list
Now I really like where you're going here, but cramming UUGG into what is otherwise clean Jeskai hurts my eyes, and I think it needlessly clings to Bant when we're on a different plan at this point. The General basically does what Uro does already: taking over / running away with the game.
Peeking over at the Spirits thread (where you've been active too recently) I want to second Reeplecheep on the merits of Dorothea as a pretty decent on-color Strix/Snake impersonation: dodges Delver removal; stalls the board, kill-blocks most things, and clocks vs combo. Disturb can be seen as a pseudo-draw gold-spell, and we do have quite a bit of agency over when she goes to the yard in the first place.
EDIT: And the Karakas interaction is pretty neat
So we're playing tap-out midrange without discard (sorry for another reference: compare with the threat/spell structure of Whiteface's Esper Mentor (https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/home/deck-guide-legacy-esper-mentor/) from earlier this year)
This is what I have for now:
12
2-3 Dorothea
3-4 Meddling Mage
0-1 Lavinia
3-4 General
2 T3feri
28
4 BS | Ponder | Force | Swords
4 Manamorphose | Expressive Iteration
3 Prismatic Ending
1 Rip Apart
20
1 Karakas
4 Strand | Tarn
2 Mesa
1 Triome | Plateau
2 Tundra | Volc
1 Island | Plains | Mountain
SB
1 Jegantha (declare Elk when boarding out Forces)
1 Lavinia
1 Torpor Orb
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 red blast
1 Force of Negation
1 Dovin's Veto
1 Wear // Tear
1 Rip Apart
1 Null Rod
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical
multicolor count = 21 + 6 SB
EDIT: typos; threat numbers
By saying don't copy Mentor, I also meant in the more general sense. Reactive Xerox isn't necessarily the right shell. ExIt encourages a proactive tap-out plan. So do some of the other gold cards like Meddling Mage and Uro. For reactive cards you're looking at Ice-Fang Coatl (which clashes with the mana) and mostly monocolored cards. Proactive might be better. General is also much easier to tap out with (needs less protection than Mentor), is triggered by higher CMC cards, and doesn't need you to have stockpiled a grip of cheap spells, so it works with more proactive play patterns.
Now I really like where you're going here, but cramming UUGG into what is otherwise clean Jeskai hurts my eyes, and I think it needlessly clings to Bant when we're on a different plan at this point. The General basically does what Uro does already: taking over / running away with the game.
Bant Exit runs Uro in the same 4-color manabase, with fewer colored sources. They do run other green cards (usually Sylvan & Endurance) but not many. It's predominantly UW dipping heavy into green for GG cards. So I don't know how completely unreasonable the mana is. Manamorphose+ Pillar can help stabilize beyond the usual too. Endurance and Carpet of Flowers are strong choices out of the SB, with Carpet significantly improving the mana stability against Delver decks.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-4c-control#paper
Uro's lifegain is very good at invalidating small attacks (Delver, DRC, Voidwalker, Flickerwisp, Thalia..) helping stabilize against creatures, especially evasive ones. Without Uro or Coatl or Endurance, tanking damage to fast flyers becomes a bigger concern. You can't ambush them with Coatl/Endurance or negate the damage with Uro. Both the +3 life and ambush blockers work well against Marit Lage too (often needs a 2nd attack to kill). Cutting green's Uro and air defense means the deck becomes softer to these strategies.
General doesn't make up for that. It just floods the ground with dumb beaters. So while it does replace the role of "3-mana run away with the game" and it helps go wide around blockers and removal, it doesn't replace the roles of stabilizing to reach, amassing mana advantage, recurring multiple times, or being an amazing topdeck/Ponder hit (1-card combo). The cards do different things. And Uro does play well with General...(although the mana doesn't).
When I tested other General builds against UR Delver, a common play pattern was casting General and making 4/4s but getting raced by Murktide/DRC+Bolts. The deck was forced to race or remove everything, since it lacked the ways to stabilize against reach that Bant has. So if you cut Uro and green, the deck needs something else to cover that role.
Dorothea is interesting as another answer to fast flyers and 2 general triggers in 1 card. It could fill some of those roles. Deserves testing.
When I tested other General builds against UR Delver, a common play pattern was casting General and making 4/4s but getting raced by Murktide/DRC+Bolts. The deck was forced to race or remove everything, since it lacked the ways to stabilize against reach that Bant has. So if you cut Uro and green, the deck needs something else to cover that role.
That's where Cavern Harpy comes in.
Can block Murktide forever ( and generate 4/4s in the process ) and is basically unboltable.
That's where Cavern Harpy comes in.
Can block Murktide forever ( and generate 4/4s in the process ) and is basically unboltable.
Costs 4 mana per turn to chump Murktide/Marit Lage, losing to Bolt on the other creature. Both Delver and Depths are fast enough to win before that engine comes online.
Cavern Harpy is a great card on turn 8 with a clogged board. The problem is it's a dead card on an empty board and really needs General out to create value. It's the type of card that's great goldfishing and bad in real resource-light games.
Dorothea does the opposite. It's unimpressive in a stalled lategame, but it comes down turn 2 and holds off fast flyers without requiring any other cards out. Uro would be ideal, but if you don't want to worry about GG then you need another plan.
Tobitzki
01-23-2022, 03:38 PM
Finally took the old General out for a spin again, in the Jeskai shell, for a little 3-0 with friends. MUs: DnT, Dark Bant, and some janky combo brew. (A while ago I did some testing vs. Doomsday that also went really well.) Still small sample size but the deck felt really solid. Current list:
15 threats
4 General Ferris Buehler
3 Meddling Mage
2 Dorothea
1 Lavinia
1 Wandering Mind
4
2 T3feri
1 The Royal Scions
1 Dack Fayden --> meta call, could be Sevinne's Reclamation
25 spells
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Expressive Iteration
3 Swords
3 PEnding
2 Rip Apart
1 FoN
20 lands
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Sanctuary
4 Strand
4 Tarn
1 Mesa
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic
1 Plateau
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
SB:
1 Jegantha
1 Blood Moon
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 red blast
1 Meddling Mage
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Meltdown
1 Wear//Tear
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical
multicolor count: 21+5
As the recent success of the Days Undoing deck confirms, the Jeskai spells shell is just an absolute house rn, and the General does feel like a legitimate wincon here. The deck plays a midrange tap-out game (closer to old Grixis) and is very mana hungry. I never really ran out of things to do, never even got to put Jegantha in hand in those games I boarded out all Forces (which I'm not sure was correct vs. DnT and Control but I did it for science). Once a General hits the board it almost feels like you can't lose: I was able to go straight over both DnT and 4C Cntrl, playing through several Jace activations one game and Karakas in two other games (still making Golems with with 5+ lands out. (Dack helped a lot too, stealing a Jitte and a Strix respectively)
Quick notes on some cards: No need to talk about Swords, PEnding, Ex.It: those cards are OP. I take Rip Apart to be playable with so many Sagas around (some decks play Dress Down in this slot). Dorothea was fine in the Strix role, the double cast ability came in super handy, and it's a nice card to loot away with Dack. The Royal Scions were actually good, just an absolute must-kill before ult. I never got to cast Wandering Mind, that's probably the sketchiest inclusion here (I think it's a strong card but you might need flicker effects to make it Legacy playable).
It's like we already mentioned in this thread: GFR works like a pseudo-Mentor with hexproof. not shabby at all.
Looks strong. That shell of UW spells + Exit seems strong in general, then General is free value.
Why Jegantha, the Wellspring? You can't reveal it unless you board out Force. Then it's still an 8-mana play. What matches is it for?
How good was Dack Fayden? Seems odd here. Wandering Mind too.
Tobitzki
01-23-2022, 04:53 PM
Why Jegantha, the Wellspring? You can't reveal it unless you board out Force. Then it's still an 8-mana play. What matches is it for?
... Dack Fayden? Wandering Mind
As I said, I never drew Wandering Mind and Dack happened to work out well for me in these games. I think the rise of Saga as a format staple actually makes Dack maindeckable these days, even outside of Stryfo pile, and there are a few (minor) looting synergies too (binning redundant Legends, Dorothea in particular, perhaps just binning Jegantha for value).
And I'm not sure about Jegantha yet tbh, just that a guaranteed General activation in grindy/fair MUs seems ok? My experience playing control in Legacy is limited, so honest question: Do you never board out all Forces? The major deck I was thinking of was Delver (yet to test against it), but even against control here I didn't miss Force effects. Turning off opp's countermagic with Lavinia, T3feri and, optionally, Meddling Mage really helps resolve my important spells and there aren't many cards I can think off in those MUs that I'd be worried about with access to the white removal suite.
And I'm not sure about Jegantha yet tbh, just that a guaranteed General activation in grindy/fair MUs seems ok? My experience playing control in Legacy is limited, so honest question: Do you never board out all Forces? The major deck I was thinking of was Delver (yet to test against it), but even against control here I didn't miss Force effects. Turning off opp's countermagic with Lavinia, T3feri and, optionally, Meddling Mage really helps resolve my important spells and there aren't many cards I can think off in those MUs that I'd be worried about with access to the white removal suite.
When players board out 5 Forces, it's usually vs fair aggro.
It's reasonable to board out all Forces vs UR Delver (although you could use some copies to defend Lavinia/General/Teferi when tapping out). But do you want an 8-mana play vs Delver? Usually not.
That's why I asked what matchups it's for. I can't think of many matches where you both want to board out all Forces and want a slow 8-mana play. Maybe some 4c deck if you aren't worried about their sideboard cards resolving?
malekith
01-24-2022, 01:11 PM
I always prefer to use old cards than new cards.
Said that, what about to include Urza's Filter (https://deckbox.org/mtg/Urza%27s%20Filter?printing=8657) ? :smile:
This version looks fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IACGsTDA98
//Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
4 Expressive Iteration
4 Manamorphose
2 Lightning Helix
//Creatures: 8
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
4 Monastery Mentor
//Planeswalkers: 3
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
//Mana: 21
1 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
//Sideboard: 15
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
3 Force of Negation
2 Meltdown
2 Cavern of Souls
You could probably cut the Borderpost and Manamorphoses for more interactive 1-2 mana multicolor cards.
z0anthr0pe
05-23-2022, 12:34 AM
Interesting. The General could become a thing to build around in future. I think you need more multicoloured spells and maybe some way to tutor a general.
This version looks fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IACGsTDA98
//Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
4 Expressive Iteration
4 Manamorphose
2 Lightning Helix
//Creatures: 8
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
4 Monastery Mentor
//Planeswalkers: 3
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
//Mana: 21
1 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
//Sideboard: 15
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Meddling Mage
3 Force of Negation
2 Meltdown
2 Cavern of Souls
You could probably cut the Borderpost and Manamorphoses for more interactive 1-2 mana multicolor cards.
Interesting. The General could become a thing to build around in future. I think you need more multicoloured spells and maybe some way to tutor a general.
Phil's idea with that list was to build like UWR Mentor, a proven good shell. Instead of tutoring for General, there's Mentor too. 8 threats that go big when you untap with them and cast spells. Cantrips help find General and multicolored spells. The video shows the idea sort of works.
I think the biggest problem is the curve. On paper the curve looks balanced between 1-3. In practice, the 2s don't do anything on turn 2. Expressive Iteration is a turn 3 card, not turn 2. Manamorphose wants to stay in hand until you already have General/Mentor. So the deck really just has 1s and 3s, with no board presence until 3 mana. That means the deck only has 1-mana plays until it hits 3 lands. The curve's clogged at 3. Against Daze and Wasteland, the problem is worse, it may need 4+ lands to resolve anything relevant. You see that problem come up repeatedly in the video.
The deck needs a relevant proactive 2-mana play. It should be multi-colored. It should curve well into turn 3 General. It should also help improve matchups where General is not good enough. In other words, it needs to be good on turn 2 before General but also good to cast after General is out. Meddling Mage fits the criteria.
Cycling Timeless Dragon is another proactive 2 mana play that helps set up General and increases wincons.
With MD Mage and a few other changes:
//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
4 Expressive Iteration
2 Manamorphose
2 Rip Apart
//Creatures: 12
4 Meddling Mage
4 General Ferrous Rokiric
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Timeless Dragon
//Planeswalker: 2
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
//Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Prismatic Vista
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Cavern of Souls
//Sideboard: 15
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Negation
1 Detention Sphere
1 Meltdown
1 Null Rod
1 Dress Down
1 Alpine Moon
1 Blood Moon
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Surgical Extraction
Muticolor Count: 18 + 4
This deck got a powerful addition with the upcoming release of
https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/3/jenson-carthalion-druid-exile
which is basically a 2cc version of the General.
Potentially a T1 drop with Petal.
Opponent needs removal immediately or he will face a permanent 4/4 flyer with vigilance on T2.
This deck got a powerful addition with the upcoming release of
https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/3/jenson-carthalion-druid-exile
which is basically a 2cc version of the General.
Potentially a T1 drop with Petal.
Opponent needs removal immediately or he will face a permanent 4/4 flyer with vigilance on T2.
I'm fairly certain one of us can't read Jenson properly:
If that spell was all colors, create a 4/4 white Angel creature token with flying and vigilance.
What does "all colors" mean then ?
Does it mean the spell should cost WUBRG ?
Or is a spell costing WU like Meddling Mage also considered "all colors" since there is no generic mana in its cost ?
I've got a rising suspicion it will be the first though.
Blame my misinterpreting on my being non native English speaker.
snugar_i
09-03-2022, 10:27 AM
Does it mean the spell should cost WUBRG ?
Usually, unless shenanigans (Transguild Courier, multiple Painter's Servant etc.)
To work the other way, it would probably need to say something like "if it has no generic mana in its mana cost".
What does "all colors" mean then ?
Does it mean the spell should cost WUBRG ?
Or is a spell costing WU like Meddling Mage also considered "all colors" since there is no generic mana in its cost ?
I've got a rising suspicion it will be the first though.
Blame my misinterpreting on my being non native English speaker.
It literally means it has to be ALL of the colors, so it has to have WUBRG in its mana cost or have an ability that makes it all colors.
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