12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

[Tourach]

12-3

Having started playing Magic during Saga block I am fond of some of the obscure enchantments from 1998/99. One of these is Greater Good. I have been brewing with Greater Good and Phyrexian Dreadnought and have arrived at the shell below. It started of as something close to Nic Fit and has evolved into a TES-like deck with 26 potential green sources (casting the echantment is crucial!).


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls

4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Opal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Greater Good
4 Wishclaw Talisman
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Living Wish
2 Torpor Orb
1 Unearth
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Veil of Summer
2 Defense Grid
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Duress


The game plan is easy. Assemble Greater Good, cast Dreadnought and sac it in response to its ETB trigger, drawing twelve cards and discarding three in the process (hence the title). The fast mana pretty much ensures you will be able to keep going until you can cast a lethal Tendrils. Unearth is Dreadnought #4 and the Living Wishes get the 4th Nought out of the Board and maybe a Cavern or a Vexing Shusher. There is a lot of protection, but seven of those can be imprinted on Chrome Mox for green mana. Maindeck Decay is mainly for Chalice to which your only other answer is Cavern of Souls.

I honestly cannot tell how well this list works. I am a paper magic player and Corona doesn‘t allow much play testing. It goldfishes slower than TES and Brainstorms would be stellar but there should be some upsides:
- There is an aggro backup plan involving Torpor Orb and Dreadnought. Sometimes powering out a trampling 12/12 on turn 1 is good enough.
- The deck – if not under pressure – is resilient to most removal. Greater Good cannot be destroyed by Abrupt Decay and you need no other permanents to stick.
- I think that the protection portion of this deck can be extended so that it becomes quite controllish. You could try Pernicious Deed, for example, which also removes Talismans after use.
- The deck has style. It is like a Pete Venters tribute (Tendrils, Greater Good and Dreadnought).

It would be great if someone was interested in this.

[Laser Brains]

I love weird old school shit like this. I’d have to play your build to give you advice but it seems like more Torpor Orb wouldn’t be shitty. Also, check out Eldrazi Mimic with Dreadnought.

[kinda]

My record with Storm is uh...not good...but I would want an ad nauseam in the deck plus less greater good reliance. I'd trim two goods for ad nauseam and the third torpor orb. I'd cut two ESG's too for the fourth orb plus second duress.

[Fox]

This is worse than Dreadstill, ReplenishStill, Landstill, and Standstill. You have correctly identified that the purpose of Dreadnought is to create a 4x potency version of the original cycle [Ancestral, Dark Rit, Salve, Bolt, Giant Growth], but this is really not the way to do this.

Now there is no reason to ruin a manabase by adding off colors, but if you want to draw 12, we play Teferi, use [+1] and Burning Wish for Life's Legacy to get the draw 12. There is also zero reason to play do-nothing artifacts with the printing of Karn. Put the jank in the SB, we are hard control now.

If you absolutely have to play Greater Good, build Bant SnowOko and have 1x Greater Good and 1x E Tutor and do this trick with Uro since it makes escape fodder. Now this is worse than just playing Library, but you can do it; in the same way Elves could play 2x Trop and a Stasis and be legacy's best Stasis deck.

[Reeplcheep]

ominous seas is a similar combo with greater good you could add

[Barook]

Wouldn't Uro work really well with Greater Good? Draw 7, discard 3 to feed the next cast, gain 3 life, put a land into play.

[adrieng]

how is this better than resp in peace + helm of obedience ?

[Tourach]

how is this better than resp in peace + helm of obedience ?

Short answer: They are both two card combos but GG-Dreadnought costs only 5 to go off (instead of 6 or 7), is immune to Karn's static ability and cannot be stopped by Abrupt Decay. Helm combo doesn't have an aggro plan per se.

Long answer: I'm not sure it is "better". Helm combo does not use up many slots. It can go into different shells: UW, Curse Stompy, Quinn ... It's hard to compare them all. At the core, these decks have an (anti-aggro) control plan that is coupled with a quick combo kill. However, they typically do not kill before Turn 5 (with the exception of Curses which has Rituals and Chrome Moxen). GG-Dreadnought can kill very fast.

[Tourach]

If you absolutely have to play Greater Good, build Bant SnowOko and have 1x Greater Good and 1x E Tutor and do this trick with Uro since it makes escape fodder. Now this is worse than just playing Library, but you can do it; in the same way Elves could play 2x Trop and a Stasis and be legacy's best Stasis deck.
It is not that I doubt that starting with a Snowko shell leads to a strong deck, it is that I wouldn't even want to try that. Feels silly to run a one of Greater Good, "just because". If I register an Oko deck, I'm playing for the maximum win rate (I'm always playing to win, but I am also playing legacy because I like my cards). For me brewing can mean more than changing two or three slots in an existing goodstuff deck. Sometimes the result will be a pile of shit, sometimes something good and fun.



ominous seas is a similar combo with greater good you could add
http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=2519 gives the list for reference, second from the top. ThrabenU also streamed with it. If I remember correctly, he sadly didn't sac to Greater Good very often. Afterwards he said: "These four cards (3 GG and 1 Lab Maniac) were the worst cards in the deck by a lot and we always sided them out. Kind of disappointing to say."



Wouldn't Uro work really well with Greater Good? Draw 7, discard 3 to feed the next cast, gain 3 life, put a land into play.
Yes, this works. The deck reeplcheep mentioned uses Uro.


To all of the above: Having watched the stream with Ominous Seas I think that if Greater Good can be made to work it will not be in a Snoko pile, meaning Uro would remain excluded. However, blue for Brainstorm and Ponder might still be the route.

[Fox]

So Abrupt Decay doesn't matter to Dreadnought, never has. If people want to Fetch double-off blue vs Stifle/Wasteland/Daze, it goes badly quickly. In the case of UR, we will actively try to sinkhole an opponent's turn, having Dreadnought drag removal [and two mana] off a card like Delver, and then bludgeon them with Standstill. This was all before Scroll of Fate, which singlehandedly dismantles Decay.

^There's a reason this works; namely that we're combo'ing sideways [piece A + A + so many piece A's], rather than dumping everything into making 12/12s [piece A + B]. Making 12/12s is just this thing we are able to do, just one plan among many. One thing we certainly don't do anymore [unless enemy deck is linear/non-interactive] is produce 12/12s in main phases; there's no reason to let Oko see that.

-Let's break down Greater Good: it costs 4, you are playing 4 copies, it gets worse in multiples (it's the worst card in the deck), and it costs GG in a shell that heavily favors 2c construction. If you somehow get to 4 mana and don't run into Daze, you're still doing this draw 12, discard 3 on your turn?? And discarding to hand size??
-We're on straight-UG, and all the eggs are in the Greater Good basket...here's the things you have to be able to deal with maindeck: Hullbreacher, Leovold, Narset, Needle/Spyglass, Chalice, and Revoker. If deck construction isn't answering/bypassing these, you don't have a deck. Postboard, you better have a plan for Surgical target Dreadnought.
-Let's look at our tools for synergy: uhh yeah...Torpor Orb and Greater Good have none. Sure wish I could tap a Scroll of Fate and flush Greater Good into something, or clear soft permission on turn 3 [right before Greater Good], and have ability to make a 12/12 on their end-step, and maybe even sac them to untap and enter a turn with 12 new looks. Why are we donating Wishclaw to opponents and not playing Karn or some way to get them back? Why are we playing 1x lands without Reclaimer?
-Why are we playing textless hand size killers (ESG, Moxen)? Where is Ancient Tomb??? Where is Lotus Field + Stifle???

Don't get me wrong, there is power in a strategy that puts Dreadnought on the stack and says "bleed cards now, or else," having a plan to transmute it into some kind of value without passing priority and not even allowing split second spells to do anything about it; but I don't think you get there by using Greater Good even though it checks the box that turns Dreadnought into quad-Ancestral. This is something we put on the back burner until Life's Legacy is printed as instant or Momentous Fall is printed at 2cmc.

Always remember with Dreadnought, the question is never: how do I make a list that does the 12/12 thing?
The question you care about is: what cards are played in legacy which would interfere with 12/12 plan, how are you answering these [while getting closer to going off - no Decay allowed, bad card that derails you further], and what are your side hustles that ignore the cards that would otherwise be problematic for the primary 12/12 plan?

[Tourach]

If you somehow get to 4 mana and don't run into Daze, you're still doing this draw 12, discard 3 on your turn?? And discarding to hand size??
No, I'm not going to discard to hand size, pretty much never. The goal - and the deck does this consistently once it gets going - is to chain two or three Dreadnoughts into Tendrils. The Chrome and Opal Moxen are in the deck to a) cast GG earlier and b) increase storm count after you've drawn 12. I thought this was obvious but after reading your post I'm unsure whether I've made this clear enough. I might also be missing your point. That said, the attack phase is only a plan B for the deck. Because of this - in my view - the deck compares rather to storm combo variants than to Dreadstill.


here's the things you have to be able to deal with maindeck: Hullbreacher, Leovold, Narset, Needle/Spyglass, Chalice, and Revoker. If deck construction isn't answering/bypassing these, you don't have a deck. Postboard, you better have a plan for Surgical target Dreadnought.
Yes, these are hate cards (in addition to countermagic) that interfere with the combo. That's why Decay, Duress, Defense Grid and Veil of Summer are in the main deck as of now. That's ten cards plus the possibility of a Wish board. I consider this a lot.


Why are we playing textless hand size killers (ESG, Moxen)? Where is Ancient Tomb??? Where is Lotus Field + Stifle???
@ Stifle: Currently, the deck is GB. But as I said earlier, BUG for Brainstorm might be better.
@ ESG/Moxen: ESG is important so you can cast GG reliably. Same goes for Moxen. Also see above: The fast mana is good before and after drawing with GG.
@ Ancient Tomb: One of the best hands is: Swamp, Dark Rit, Petal, ESG, GG, Dreadnought. Which will probably be a T1 kill. Ancient Tomb has been awkward in goldfishing in that it doesn't cast Ritual and doesn't produce green, either.

[Fox]

So this is how this works in legacy when you play no permission:
-oppo lets you resolve Greater Good.
-you cast Dreadnought, they let it resolve.
-you sac Dreadnought -> trigger to draw 12 -> Surgical Dreadnought. You draw 12, discard 3 and lose.

Understand that Dreadnought gets most of its pilots from people new to the format b/c the deck [UR Dreadstill] costs $1100 in extreme budget form, and can compete in the format at a far higher level than mono-U StifleNought and mono-U Delver [aka why aren't you playing Dreadnought you mono-U Stifle scrub].

Your list is bad financial advice, unacceptably fragile, and prone to dangerously low win rates. Bad Dreadnought lists kind of poison the waters which new blood drink from. Love the interest on the archetype, dislike price:competitive mismatch.

Dreadnoughts inexplicably jumped from $12-15 to $60ish like 2 years ago; gotta be really careful about what we're asking people to ante up.

[ScottW]

Cool deck idea. Maybe consider some other cheap big creatures to take advantage of the beatdown and greater good. What is that dino for 2B? Not sure what the drawback is.

[mistercakes]

there's been some lists that have been worked on in premodern for the last few months. have you checked those out?

[FTW]

I also thought this might have potential for Premodern, but Tendrils is banned. Black tutors are banned too (Vamp Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Demonic Consulation, Entomb).
https://premodernmagic.com/

On the plus side, the following cards are also banned: Necro, Bargain, Time Spiral, Windfall, Memory Jar, Mind's Desire, Brainstorm. That means 12-3 might be one of the best draw engines left in the format.

Force of Will is also banned, so you just have to play around Daze/Force Spike and 2-mana counters, assuming you can find another win condition.

Pandemonium is a silly wincon. You just need 2 Dreadnought triggers to deal lethal, and Unearth recursion helps that.

White has Enlightened Tutor to find all the combo pieces. Argivian Find works as a makeshift Unearth that also recovers combo pieces from discard and removal.

You could try something like this in Premodern


//Lands: 15
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Hickory Woodlot

//More mana: 19
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual

//Engine: 17
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Greater Good
3 Argivian Find
2 Unearth

//Protection: 7
4 Duress
3 Orim's Chant

//Win Cons: 2
2 Pandemonium

//Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroclasm
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Enduring Renewal


It's a silly glass cannon. But there's also a lot of room for protection, acceleration, and recovering pieces.

Silence/Grid effects are used to dodge both disenchants and counters on the combo pieces.

The SB is a mix of answers for counterspells, creature-based hate (Meddling Mage), and other permanent-based hate (Arcane Lab, Sphere of Resistance).

Feldon's Cane lets you loot through your library a 2nd time if you need the extra gas to win. It also protects you from losing to Brain Freeze storm decks.

Enduring Renewal is a backup engine that lets you go off without Greater Good, or when you run out of cards in library vs an opponent with high life. You basically gain the following abilities.
G: add RR
1: deal 12 damage to any target

This looks fun to play in a format that tried to ban unfair decks and FoW.

Edit: Revised duals are not legal in this format. Seems terrible. That means a rejig of the manabase from all-Forests to Rainbow lands, as well as cutting Land Grant and Orcish Lumberjack and the 4th Mox Diamond (worse without Land Grant). But then it's easier to keep black for Dark Ritual.

[mistercakes]

The deck has already been played in premodern, it's a little inconsistent, but it is quite strong. The win is replenish with a pandemonium and sap burst. It's posted in the FB groups and you can find it on discord.

[FTW]

The deck has already been played in premodern, it's a little inconsistent, but it is quite strong. The win is replenish with a pandemonium and sap burst. It's posted in the FB groups and you can find it on discord.

Do you have a link or decklist? The FB group and discords are private.

Is it a UW Replenish PandeBurst deck, with cards like Careful Study and Attunement and Opalescence? Or does it use Tourach's Greater Good-Dreadnought engine?

The ones I've seen are UW Replenish. Replenish is a decent deck but a completely different engine, with different vulnerabilities and strengths.

This is more of an A+B combo. After the first draw 12 there's enough gas to keep chaining into a win. It can also just win by hardcasting Pandemonium and making Dreadnought twice. Assembling the engine is inconsistent, but it also doesn't rely on the grave as much, can run a different protection suite, and is very explosive.

I tried out a few goldfishes.

This version goldfishes T3 pretty consistently or T4 with protection, with the occasional T1-T2 win.
It rarely fizzles with GG+Dreadnought, but it is more likely to fizzle in the setup phase.


//Lands: 15
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Hickory Woodlot

//More mana: 17
3 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
2 Tinder Wall

//Engine: 14
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Greater Good
2 Pandemonium
2 Argivian Find
2 Unearth

//Dig: 8
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Portent

//Protection: 6
4 Duress
2 Orim's Chant

//Sideboard:
3 Defense Grid
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroclasm
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Enduring Renewal



10 goldfishes played
1) Turn 1 win with GG + Dreadnought chain
2) Turn 3 win without GG (Pandemonium + Dreadnought + Unearth = 24 direct)
3) T4 win after 1 Duress, or turn 5 with 2 Duress + Chant
4) Fizzled after T1 Portent shuffle
5) Turn 3 win (Pandemonium + Dreadnought + Unearth)
6) Turn 3 win (GG + Dreadnought chain) with 1 Duress
7) Turn 3 win (Pandemonium + Dreadnought + Unearth)
8) Turn 2 win (GG + Dreadnought chain)
9) Turn 3 win (GG + Dreadnought chain), or T4 with Duress
10) Turn 3 win (GG + Dreadnought chain), or T4 with Chant

[FTW]

I tested 6 games between a Replenish build I found online vs Greater Good. Greater Good won all of them, either by comboing off first or by casting Duress to disrupt Replenish (though Replenish would have won 2 of 6 races if both OTP and not hit by discard). Most wins were turn 2-3.

The deck is far from broken or unbeatable, but it does have a lot of explosive potential and is fun to play.

It only needs 5-6 mana to win the game, and the mana can be split up over turns

Line 1) 3GG = Greater Good+Phyrexian Dreadnought -> Draw chain that usually results in winning this turn
Line 2) 4RB = Pandemonium+Phyrexian Dreadnought+Unearth/Dreadnought#2 -> 24 damage

Importantly, both of those lines can be accelerated with either Dark Ritual mana, Tinder Wall mana, or Hickory Woodlot mana.

Woodlot + Petal/Rainbow Land + Dark Ritual = 3GG on turn 2
Woodlot + Tinder Wall + Petal/Land/ESG = 3GG on turn 3
ESG/Petal + ESG/Petal + Rainbow Land + Dark Ritual = 3GG on turn 1
ESG/Petal + ESG/Petal + Rainbow Land + Tinder Wall = 3GG on turn 2
Rainbow Land/Petal + Rainbow Land/Petal + Dark Ritual + Dark Ritual = 4RB on turn 1-2
Rainbow Land + Tinder Wall + Dark Ritual + ESG/Petal/Land = 4RB on turn 2

You can also play Greater Good or Pandemonium a turn earlier to ease mana requirements.

The overall mana efficiency enables the deck to spend other mana on card selection (ETutor, Portent) or protection (discard, Chant, Grid, removal). It can also win through Winter Orb/Rishadan Port/Tangle Wire, especially with Undiscovered Paradise returning to hand.

Replenishing back the wincons is unnecessary. Once you start drawing extra cards, paying 6 mana for Pandemonium + double Dreadnought is about as easy as paying 3W for Replenish. Pandemonium+Saproling Burst is a cool combo, but there's no reason to use slots on Saproling Burst when Dreadnoughts already does both roles or draw and damage.

[mistercakes]

Saproling burst is a way of turning a rector mid combo into lots of greater good activations.

Did the list you test run 3/4 Academy Rector? That's the good one.

[FTW]

Do you have a copy/link to that list with Rector?

No Rector in the one I saw. It used Attunement and Intuition to fill the grave and set up Replenish, or could just hardcast Saproling Burst and Pandemonium. It was more of a dedicated Replenish deck also running the Pandeburst combo.

[mistercakes]

Here's one I saw made t16 in Dec.

1 sap burst
1 replenish
1 pandemonium
1 nostalgic dreams
2 duress
4 therapy
3 rector
4 Greater good
4 dreadnought
3 reanimate
4 e tutor
4 petal
4 esg
4 Dark rit

20 lands including hickory woodlot, ancient tomb, and then city of Brass and other multi color lands.

[FTW]

Thanks. That list looks pretty tight.

I'll test it out. I do like the old Rector-Therapy engine. I had also just been considering whether cutting fast mana for Tombs would improve consistency. It seems important in a Rector build. I want to see how much of a difference that makes in different games.

Edit: The first thing I notice is that with less fast mana, playing mid-combo is more constrained on resources. It's easier to fizzle and run out of mana, needing to pass the turn unless you hit multiple Dark Rits early. I can see why the line of discarding Therapy + Rector and Reanimating Rector for Sap Burst can be needed to keep the chain going, or Reanimating Rector for Pandemonium directly instead of hardcasting it.

Mox Diamond increases the number of 0cmc mana sources giving you draws that don't fizzle, and making more use out of all those lands drawn. But it's much worse in the opening hand. So there is a tradeoff. Passing the turn mid-combo may not be as bad as being down a card in the opener.

The other thing I noticed is that I was mulliganing more. I was getting more hands full of mana but no gas. Portent or other 1 cmc draw fixing might be good here to reduce the variance in opening hands. Maybe even Sylvan Library. Both can be used to dodge discard by setting up to draw mana first and then combo pieces on the critical turn.

The combo also seems dependent on resolving Reanimate (on Dreadnoughts or Rector) or Replenish (on Pandeburst) to save mana, making it vulnerable to graveyard hate like Crypts. My build is able to go off explosively often without using the graveyard at all, by using the fast mana to hardcast things. I'm trying to see if I can combine the two strategies to get something more consistent.

[mistercakes]

Thanks. That list looks pretty tight.

I'll test it out. I do like the old Rector-Therapy engine. I had also just been considering whether cutting fast mana for Tombs would improve consistency. It seems important in a Rector build. I want to see how much of a difference that makes in different games.

Edit: The first thing I notice is that with less fast mana, playing mid-combo is more constrained on resources. It's easier to fizzle and run out of mana, needing to pass the turn unless you hit multiple Dark Rits early. I can see why the line of discarding Therapy + Rector and Reanimating Rector for Sap Burst can be needed to keep the chain going, or Reanimating Rector for Pandemonium directly instead of hardcasting it.

Mox Diamond increases the number of 0cmc mana sources giving you draws that don't fizzle, and making more use out of all those lands drawn. But it's much worse in the opening hand. So there is a tradeoff. Passing the turn mid-combo may not be as bad as being down a card in the opener.

The other thing I noticed is that I was mulliganing more. I was getting more hands full of mana but no gas. Portent or other 1 cmc draw fixing might be good here to reduce the variance in opening hands. Maybe even Sylvan Library. Both can be used to dodge discard by setting up to draw mana first and then combo pieces on the critical turn.

The combo also seems dependent on resolving Reanimate (on Dreadnoughts or Rector) or Replenish (on Pandeburst) to save mana, making it vulnerable to graveyard hate like Crypts. My build is able to go off explosively often without using the graveyard at all, by using the fast mana to hardcast things. I'm trying to see if I can combine the two strategies to get something more consistent.


there is an element of variance that gets introduced. it's a bit higher on the power level, but some hands can be quite clunky.

two things to note:

1) nostalgic dreams allows you to finish the combo rather easily, especially with ESG.
2) academy rector can be sacrificed with dreadnought, as it says power 12 or greater. (you'll sac both, so you'll lose a dreadnought, but get greater good or sap burst)

i also thought it could be useful to use greater good combo with hermit druid, but then it's outside the scope of legacy.

there's yet another version that has some other kinds of randomness, but introduces another combo:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3570758#paper

it's very unrefined, but the idea is buried alive + shallow grave is a win if they don't have an interaction to stop the ghoul. ideally 4x of each, but these are rough numbers trying to get everything to fit.

[Vacrix]

Ox of Agonas might be better than Phyrexian Dreadnought with Greater Good.

2GG - Greater Good
RR - Discard hand, Draw 3
Then Draw 5 discard 3
Net 5 cards, 3 cards in the graveyard
Try to play or discard everything
Remove 8 cards, repeat

One can Entomb - Phyrexian Dreadnought is 2 mana cheaper than Wishclaw Talsiman. Also Echo of Eons opens up another line with Entomb. Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge could become GB destroy target Artifact or Enchantment postboard with Entomb.

It would work better if one could Summoner's Pact for a Magus of the Greater Good. Unfortunately I don't think there is a Life's Legacy effect on a green creature. Disciple of Bolas is close but its in black. Painter's Servant turns on Pact for Phyrexian Dreadnought. Grindstone and Painter's Servant are both artifacts. How versatile is Painter's Servant with Summoner's Pact?

Immolating Soul Eater could be played with Greater Good as well, but without life gain from something like Momentous Fall or Disciple of Bolas, one can't play it that way again. Morbid Curiosity works with Soul Eater as well.

Escaping Ox in cycles seems stronger. It finds exactly 8 cards. ESG and SSG won't count as cards in the yard to feed Ox's escape cost. Finding RR seems easy enough. The engine is easier to play multiples of than Ad Nauseam but the deck structure is hard on finding what works with the engine if you play Dreadnought. Entomb and Ox is 8 copies of what works with the engine and you only need 1 to go off. LEDs feed the Ox and add Mana. If creatures are easy to find too, then playing them and cycling through more of the deck means that Greater Good can just feed the yard with SSGs and ESGs if you can hit 5 mana, or Summoner's Pact - Skyshroud Cutter draw 2, discard the rest of the hand. I see the limitation being that drawing 7, and then adding 3 on when you cast Ox means you can only have a Greater Good and Ox in play. Entomb conveniently adds a card on, as could something like Summoner's Pact to make extra cards in the graveyard. It doesn't feel like a deck that will often have a way to win turn 1. LED plays with Ox incredibly well tho since you can cast Ox from the graveyard for RR, and you need the rest of the cards in hand out of hand. Ox is also not so good with cards like Chrome Mox, but also permanent mana sources like Mox Opal or Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond is great with Turntimber Symbiosis and Summoner's Pact when Pact finds Dryad Arbor. The right deck structure could produce a high storm count very easily is reassuring.

EDIT:
One could play 4 Entomb, 1 Ox, 1 Greater Good, to save deck space for a Reanimation build or Echo of Eons focused storm build. 6 cards could be a lot actually considering how strong Entomb is as an Instant tutor for B. Entomb even by itself is 2UB, Timetwister. Pull from Eternity is also EoE, post EoE.

Also if you can't feed Ox, Ox and Greater Good filter Echo of Eons to the Graveyard.

Burying and reanimating an Ox to gore for the Greater Good seems good.. as long as you also have forever when the Ox can't still be dead. Like how long has it been since I heard that dead horse joke about banning Lion's Eye Diamond.

Agonas does sound like its hinting at Tendrils of Agony.

EDIT 2:
Death's Shadow could be played with Greater Good or Life's Legacy if one can pay enough life first. 1G + B + Life sink. Lim-Dul's Vault, Plunge into Darkness, Spoils of the Vault, and Toxic Deluge can sink quite a bit of life in one turn. Pay half your life with Cruel Bargain, Infernal Contract, or Doomsday. Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Snuff Out, Overgrown Tomb, Cabal Pit, Street Wraith, Noxious Revival, Sylvan Library and Agadeem, the Undercrypt also pay life. As does Griselbrand and Ad Nauseam.

Finding the other piece with Plunge into Darkness seems best of those. 1G + 1B + B. So BBG2. After drawing 10 to 12 I suppose one can win. Tainted Pact into Death's Shadow is not awful against slow decks. Almost like Pseudo reanimator just going straight for a 10/10. You have to play it before Life's Legacy anyway. Beats with a 10/10 for 1BB could be good against Lands/Stax/Turbo Eldrazi.

Bone Miser is another interesting one, tho it costs 5. Discarding cards to make tokens can feed Greater Good. Discarding lands makes mana. Raven's Crime with Bone Miser can produce mana while filtering through cards, essentially, discard a land, add BB. Raven's Crime can be found via Entomb. One can Reanimate Bone Miser.

[rufus]

Ox of Agonas might be better than Phyrexian Dreadnought with Greater Good.

2GG - Greater Good
RR - Discard hand, Draw 3
Then Draw 5 discard 3
Net 5 cards, 3 cards in the graveyard
Try to play or discard everything
Remove 8 cards, repeat


This means you draw and discard 8 cards and then exile all 8 cards from the graveyard. You'd also need to exile 8 cards to start going off. That doesn't leave much margin for building up to a finish. On top of that it's vulnerable to graveyard hate. II guess you can supplement with Hollow One or use something like Manamorphose to see more cards.

The 8 cards in, 8 cards out also means that chrome mox and SSG aren't great for mana while cycling ox - I guess you can get there with LED, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, and Tinder Wall, but that's a little iffy.

You can credibly try to set up a graveyard for ox while digging for Greater Good using Commune with the Gods.



Immolating Soul Eater could be played with Greater Good as well, but without life gain from something like Momentous Fall or Disciple of Bolas, one can't play it that way again. Morbid Curiosity works with Soul Eater as well.

There might be a crazy pile with Soul Eater, Wheel of Misfortune,Children of Korlis and Second Sunrise.

[FTW]

Ox seems unnecessary when Dreadnought draws you more cards for less mana and without consuming graveyard resources.

Phyrexian Dreadnought - 1: Draw 12, discard 3

Unearth - B: Draw 12, discard 3

Reanimate - B, 1 life: Draw 12, discard 3

Argivian Find -1W: Draw 12, discard 3

Enlightened Tutor - 1W: Draw 11, discard 3

That's the current bar to beat

Ox doesn't seem very good in comparison
RR, exile 8 cards: Discard hand, draw 8, discard 3

Also I think this deck really only has legs in premodern anyway.

[Tourach]

Argivian Find -1W: Draw 12, discard 3


Does this protect the combo from Surgical Extraction in that the target card is no longer in the grave making Surgical fizzle?

[Reeplcheep]

What is the niche of this deck you are aiming at? It’s going to be very difficult to make anything better than recruiter aluren. That 4c enchantment combo requires less mana, instant instead of sorcery speed, less pieces, and avoids more hate.

[Tourach]

What is the niche of this deck you are aiming at? It’s going to be very difficult to make anything better than recruiter aluren. That 4c enchantment combo requires less mana, instant instead of sorcery speed, less pieces, and avoids more hate.

If this is a question to me as the opener of the thread: I cannot compare to Aluren, as I have never played with or against Aluren. That being said I do not see a niche for this Greater Good deck in Legacy, sadly. This realization came when debating the deck idea. I may play this deck to troll people as I own the pieces but would stick with TES if I want to maximize chances. The premodern version looks fun though.

I would still be interested to know whether Argivian Find makes Surgical fizzle.

[Fox]

Anything that removes the target vs a single-target spell will cause a fizzle. With high mana costs, probably better to rely on Noxious Revival..

[FTW]

Yes, Argivian Find makes Surgical on Dreadnought fizzle. It also returns a countered/killed/milled Greater Good or gets another Dreadnought draw 12 if needed, so it can fill many roles for just a single mana. It costs less mana than other Regrowth effects, except for Noxious Revival. However Noxious puts the card on top of library only (not useful always) and is not legal in Premodern.