Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

[Clark Kant]

4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Shardless Agent

4 Ardent Plea

1 Demonic Dread

4 Violent Outburst

3-4 Valki, God of Lies

2-3 Crashing Footfalls

4 Force of Will

1 Misdirection

6-8 Flex Slots (Memory Leak/Sphinx of Foresight/Street Wraith/Teferi3/Uro/Oko/Misdirection/Force of Negation/Trinisphere/Brazen Borrower/Bonecrusher/Council’s Judgment/Anguished Unmaking/Vindicate/Maelstrom’s Pulse etc)

21-22 Lands (Waterlogged Grove and similar Canopy lands that can be cashed in for more cards when flooded)

Sideboard:

4 Mindbreak Trap

4 Leyline of the Void

0-4 Leyline of Sanctity

3-7 Flex Slots (Maelstrom’s Pulse/Oko, Thief of Crowns/Trinisphere/Council’s Judgment/Brazen Borrower/Force of Negation/Misdirection etc.)

I am probably forgetting about an excellent sideboard card at the same powerlevel of Leyline/Mindbreak but the maindeck is rock solid.

[FTW]

Do the rules work that way? Can you cascade into Valki but then choose to cast the Planeswalker side?

Cascade combo needs 10 cascaders max. 16 is overkill.

Demonic Dread is liability. Needs a target to cast. Doesn't pitch to Force. Terrible card.

22 lands + 8 spirit guides is also too much mana

-4 Dread
-2 Plea
-2 lands

+4 Oko
+3 Borrower
+1 Uro

For the 3-4 flex slots FoN, Sphinx of Foresight, Bonecrusher Giant are all options.

[kinda]

I haven't played modern in a while but I'm planning on stuffing tibalt into my jund rhinos deck. Something like this:


2 new tibalt valki card
4 crashing footfalls
4 violent outburst
3 demonic dread
3 bloodbraid elf
1 dreadhorde arcanist
1 might of oaks
2 become immense
4 hanweir garrison
1 krenko, tin Street kingpin
3 Bonecrusher Giant
2 dismember
3 shriekmaw
1 discovery//dismissal
4 simian spirit guide
3 hanweir battlements
1 gemstone caverns
2 raging ravine
16 jund lands

SB:
4 leyline of the void
3 fulminator mage
2 slaughter games
2 krosan grip
2 gemstone caverns
2 dismember

[Mr. Safety]

I think the template would be Hypergenesis. I played 16 lands and 4 each of the Spirit Guides for mana. My cascade enablers were 4x Ardent Plea, Shardless Agent, and Violent Outburst. To enable maindeck Force of Will I used creatures in the threat package that were blue so I could get to the 16 blue card count. In this case, you can actually just get the blue count higher by including some number of Force of Negation, Misdirection, and Brazen Borrower. I definitely like the Sphinx of Foresight idea, it will give you much needed consistency due to the fact that fundamentally you're still just a Belcher deck.

[Clark Kant]

Do the rules work that way? Can you cascade into Valki but then choose to cast the Planeswalker side?

Cascade combo needs 10 cascaders max. 16 is overkill.

Demonic Dread is liability. Needs a target to cast. Doesn't pitch to Force. Terrible card.

22 lands + 8 spirit guides is also too much mana

-4 Dread
-2 Plea
-2 lands

+4 Oko
+3 Borrower
+1 Uro

For the 3-4 flex slots FoN, Sphinx of Foresight, Bonecrusher Giant are all options.

You’re absolutely right. It slipped my mind that Demonic Dread requires a creature in play in order to be cast, I think 12 cascaders is the right call. I really like Ardent Plea so I would not cut that, it can pitched to FoW/Misdirection/FoN so I think the full playset of the 3 other cascaders is justified, and essential for consistency’s sake.

Sphinx of Foresight seems good. I actually think Memory Leak is an awesome card for this deck as well (gives you a turn 1 play of cycling it away, or against control matchups lets you pick away their counterspell or removal to protect your Tibalt).

The Horizon Canopy lands are fantastic in the mana base, giving you access to multiple colors while also letting you trade away lands when you are flooded. 21-22 lands is perfect as long as atleast 5 of them are Canopy lands.

[Clark Kant]

I haven't played modern in a while but I'm planning on stuffing tibalt into my jund rhinos deck. Something like this:


2 new tibalt valki card
4 crashing footfalls
4 violent outburst
3 demonic dread
3 bloodbraid elf
1 dreadhorde arcanist
1 might of oaks
2 become immense
4 hanweir garrison
1 krenko, tin Street kingpin
3 Bonecrusher Giant
2 dismember
3 shriekmaw
1 discovery//dismissal
4 simian spirit guide
3 hanweir battlements
1 gemstone caverns
2 raging ravine
16 jund lands

SB:
4 leyline of the void
3 fulminator mage
2 slaughter games
2 krosan grip
2 gemstone caverns
2 dismember


If you're interested in this strategy in Modern, here is what I would run...

4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Ardent Plea

4 Violent Outburst

1-2 Demonic Dread

4 Street Wraith/Memory Leak/Sphinx of Foresight/Bloodbraid Elf

3-4 Valki, God of Lies

2-3 Crashing Footfalls

2 Maelstrom’s Pulse

2 Anguished Unmaking

0-2 Brazen Borrower

0-2 Uro, Titan of Nature’s Wrath

0-2 Force of Negation

7-12 Flex Slots (Bloodbraid Elf/Teferi3/Bonecrusher Giant/Memory Leak/Sphinx of Foresight and some other 3cc hate piece or removal)

21-22 Lands (Waterlogged Grove and other Canopy lands that can be cashed in for more cards when youre flooded)

Sideboard:

4 Mindbreak Trap

4 Leyline of the Void

4 Leyline of Sanctity

3 Flex Slots (Trinisphere/Brazen Borrower/Force of Negation/Maelstrom’s Pulse/Anguished Unmaking/Plague Engineer/Archon of Emeria)

The deck is absolutely absurd. Calling it now, the deck is going to mess up modern cause either a ban or a rule change and piss of a lot of people that will have spent a ton of money to get a playset of Valki.

[kinda]

Looks good! Definitely going to try it in modern soon!

[Clark Kant]

Looks good! Definitely going to try it in modern soon!

Teferi3 is absolutely nuts in this deck, both in legacy and modern. Play 2-3 of them.

I am considering a rainbow manabase possibly with a Niv Mizzet Reborn as an alternate finisher and way to refill the hand.

[kinda]

Anzid went 4-1 with this: https://www.twitch.tv/anzidmtg/v/899966275?sr=a&t=11205s

Very fun stream!

[JackaBo]

Anzid went 4-1 with this: https://www.twitch.tv/anzidmtg/v/899966275?sr=a&t=11205s

Very fun stream!

Yeah that stream was very entertaining

[chunderbucket]

Has anyone tested [[Flaxen Intruder]]? If I understand the ruling correctly, cascading into it yields 3 2/2s and unlike the suspend card it's not *that* feelbad to draw. It's also not vulnerable to Chalice on 0, Sanctum Prelate, this sort of thing.

[Reeplcheep]

Has anyone tested [[Flaxen Intruder]]? If I understand the ruling correctly, cascading into it yields 3 2/2s and unlike the suspend card it's not *that* feelbad to draw. It's also not vulnerable to Chalice on 0, Sanctum Prelate, this sort of thing.

3 2/2s sounds worse than 2 4/4s Crashing Footfalls in oko’s world.

[Fox]

Has anyone tested [[Flaxen Intruder]]? If I understand the ruling correctly, cascading into it yields 3 2/2s and unlike the suspend card it's not *that* feelbad to draw. It's also not vulnerable to Chalice on 0, Sanctum Prelate, this sort of thing.

The card has cmc 2 or less and can be cascaded into, but it is not called Valki. The cheese people are using looks roughly like:
20 land
8 Guides
4 Oko
4 Valki
4 FoW
4 FoN
4 Misd
4 Violent Outburst
4 Shardless
2 Dispute
2 flex

Just turn 0-1 Valki every game. Super skill magic. Expect a rules update very soon that makes Valki appear as cmc 9 in library.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm pretty sure Flaxen Intruder/adventure works with cascade. Text at scryfall:

Casting a card as an Adventure isn’t casting it for an alternative cost. Effects that allow you to cast a spell for an alternative cost or without paying its mana cost may allow you to apply those to the Adventure.
(2019-10-04)

[Reeplcheep]

The card has cmc 2 or less and can be cascaded into, but it is not called Valki. The cheese people are using looks roughly like:
20 land
8 Guides
4 Oko
4 Valki
4 FoW
4 FoN
4 Misd
4 Violent Outburst
4 Shardless
2 Dispute
2 flex

Just turn 0-1 Valki every game. Super skill magic. Expect a rules update very soon that makes Valki appear as cmc 9 in library.

I think MDFCs having different rules than split cards makes absolutely no sense, so I would support this rule change. However this deck isn’t bannable at all. It’s just bad hypergenesis (lose to pithing needle/other combo) except now you have a slightly better fair game.

[Fox]

I think MDFCs having different rules than split cards makes absolutely no sense, so I would support this rule change. However this deck isn’t bannable at all. It’s just bad hypergenesis (lose to pithing needle/other combo) except now you have a slightly better fair game.

You still have to ban Oko. Needle on Valki is the worst possible play you could make vs Oko. Here's how this story ends: Needle to elk -> Valki exile NeedleElk -> cast Needle, name your comeback mechanism.

Never ever murder yourself with your own cards.

[Reeplcheep]

They have no selection so how are they finding that oko?

Still not convinced that outburst/Valki is better than s&t/hypergenesis/emrakul/griselbrand/omniscience.You can run oko in either deck, but one doesn’t lose to pithing needle or doomsday pass the turn.

[Fox]

They have no selection so how are they finding that oko?

Still not convinced that outburst/Valki is better than s&t/hypergenesis/emrakul/griselbrand/omniscience.You can run oko in either deck, but one doesn’t lose to pithing needle or doomsday pass the turn.
So HyperG has to have the wincon in hand, its cascades only find enabler, never the payoff. It also has to jank out with SnT. Also it can't cast Grisel or Emmy, whereas Valki is cast as a 2/1 and Oko as a 1-card combo. ESG fixes for Oko.

All of these things together, and the far higher blue count make Valki a consistent turn 0 to turn 2 deck with incredibly low skill reloads.

[Clark Kant]

Anzid went 4-1 with this: https://www.twitch.tv/anzidmtg/v/899966275?sr=a&t=11205s

Very fun stream!

Awesome, thanks for sharing. Yes its a very solid efficent consistent strategy, so not surprised it 4-1ed even with a suboptimal build (not a fan of 4 misdirection or the mana base). It will be optimized and show up in a ton of challenges and 5-0s in no time

[kinda]

Arkhan just won the legacy challenge with this.

[FTW]

The card has cmc 2 or less and can be cascaded into, but it is not called Valki. The cheese people are using looks roughly like:
20 land
8 Guides
4 Oko
4 Valki
4 FoW
4 FoN
4 Misd
4 Violent Outburst
4 Shardless
2 Dispute
2 flex

Just turn 0-1 Valki every game. Super skill magic. Expect a rules update very soon that makes Valki appear as cmc 9 in library.

Interested to see Ark4n's list. Probably similar.

AnziD was on this.


//Mana: 26
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Gemstone Caverns

//Cascade: 8
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ardent Plea

//Protection: 12
4 Force of Will
4 Force of Negation
4 Misdirection

//Planeswalkers: 6
4 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Creatures: 7
3 Valki, God of Lies
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Brazen Borrower

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Dismember
2 Mystical Dispute
2 Narset, Parter of Veils


Big fan of maindeck Borrowers. They pitch to Force, add to the plan B beatdown, and give G1 answers to obstacles like resistors, needle, etc.

The choice between 4 Ardent Plea vs Violent Outburst is tough. Outburst leads to more speed (easier T1s off spirit guides) and can be done instant speed at EOT or in response to disruption, while Plea helps the blue count for the 12x Force builds. Exalted may also be relevant in the fair Oko plan.

With the Outburst builds I think Force of Vigor looks strong to answer resistors, with a maindeck green count of 18 already.

Overall the meta seems to have gone in the same direction as my earlier suggestions:
-maindeck plan B of Oko and Uro
-18-20 lands is plenty
-8 cascaders are sufficient
-more Forces

As much as I love seeing combo decks break new cards, T1 planeswalker with free counterspell backup is kind of boring.

[Fox]

As much as I love seeing combo decks break new cards, T1 planeswalker with free counterspell backup is kind of boring.

Yeah wouldn't really worry about that; matter of time until Oko is banned and Valki is cmc 9 in deck.

[mistercakes]

Happy to see this deck being abused like crazy. Gives me one more reason to hold off on buying Allosaurus shepherds to play legacy!

[H]

Interested to see Ark4n's list. Probably similar.

Ark4n won the Challenge on 2/6: Full standings (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-challenge-12258807)

[FTW]

Thanks for posting that H.

Here's his decklist for reference:


//Mana: 27
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau

//Cascade: 12
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ardent Plea
4 Violent Outburst

//Protection: 14
4 Force of Will
4 Force of Negation
4 Misdirection
2 Mystical Dispute

//Planeswalkers: 7
4 Oko, Thief of Crowns
3 Tibalt, Cosmic Impostor

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dismember
3 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Mystical Dispute
1 Klothys, God of Destiny
1 Plague Engineer
1 Gemstone Caverns


He went fully into the turbo Tibalt plan, with more consistency of turn 1 Tibalt (Outburst, 2 Caverns) and less plan B. This made sense for the meta this weekend but plan B seems better once the meta starts properly hating this out.

Interesting that he played the full set of rainbow lands over fetches (protection vs Opposition Agent & Stifle) and has Lavinia in the SB for both the mirror and blue counters.

[H]

I think the list might have come from, or been based on the one MarcoMale (https://www.twitch.tv/marcomale) streamed last week, although where that came from, I don't know.

[Clark Kant]

I think the list might have come from, or been based on the one MarcoMale (https://www.twitch.tv/marcomale) streamed last week, although where that came from, I don't know.

From this thread or the reddit post perhaps?

[Laser Brains]

I finally started playing online and I went up against this last night, it was brutal. He was playing Bloodbraid Elf and randomly Punishing Fire and Grove combo. I think he would have done better without the Grove combo as he essentially "shocked" me for 2 after cascading (coulda been something better). Other than that though he cascaded out an Oko one game and a Tibalt the other. I was impressed by how overwhelming this deck is. I did win 1 out two games. Cool deck though, and impressive to see in action.

[FTW]

I finally started playing online and I went up against this last night, it was brutal. He was playing Bloodbraid Elf and randomly Punishing Fire and Grove combo. I think he would have done better without the Grove combo as he essentially "shocked" me for 2 after cascading (coulda been something better). Other than that though he cascaded out an Oko one game and a Tibalt the other. I was impressed by how overwhelming this deck is. I did win 1 out two games. Cool deck though, and impressive to see in action.

That sounds like a much worse version of the deck. It's devastating when it consistently cascades into Tibalt every time, without slow cards like BBE and Punishing Grove.

The SB slots are supposed to be "3cmc" and higher cards like Mystical Dispute, Brazen Borrower, Bonecrusher Giant, Dismember, Plague Engineer. There are a lot of ways to manage small creatures without compromising the cascade plan.

[Laser Brains]

That sounds like a much worse version of the deck. It's devastating when it consistently cascades into Tibalt every time, without slow cards like BBE and Punishing Grove.

The SB slots are supposed to be "3cmc" and higher cards like Mystical Dispute, Brazen Borrower, Bonecrusher Giant, Dismember, Plague Engineer. There are a lot of ways to manage small creatures without compromising the cascade plan.

Yeah, I honestly didn't even know what he was playing. Then he busted out Bloodbraid into Punishing Fire and he was like "well dang, that fizzeled". The following game it was Tibalt and then it spiraled out of control after that and I scooped. Not sure why he was running Punishing Grove combo. After that game I remembered reading this thread and figured out that this was the (bad version of the) deck he was playing. It still smashed me so I'm sure the tuned version is twice as good. I might put this together (the good version) and play it a bit.