Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April) [Archive]

02-19-2021, 06:44 AM

Release date: April 23, 2021

https://i.imgur.com/FrCvQdZ.png https://i.imgur.com/TvdoNPE.png
https://media.wizards.com/2021/stx/en_YKtrpGddjt.png https://i.imgur.com/1Q7FmEE.png
https://i.imgur.com/fnPIy0P.png

So, the schools are enemy-colored pairs. Also, shows a new template, "mana value" replaced "converted mana cost" since it is less words, so takes up less space on cards.

https://i.imgur.com/qQjC1Ow.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/AqtqFOw.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/6fhn5YQ.png

Mystic Archive cards, alternate border, not Standard legal (but most will become legal in Historic, although not DT and StP for sure). Also, DT previews a new template, dropping "your library" from "shuffle." Sort of like Masterpeices but guaranteed to be one per Booster (no matter what sort of booster pack). There are also alternate art Japanese ones as well:

https://i.imgur.com/fv2athE.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/9ImoUBI.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/3dMURuW.png

I believe they said these will be available in English Collectors Boosters as well.

(If you think of a witty title for the thread, I'll change it.)

Barook

02-19-2021, 07:30 AM

Fox

02-19-2021, 07:37 AM

Out of those commands, the BG and UR one seem like they're the most playable ones. The white ones suck, so no surprises here.

Let's just hope they fired whoever came up with UG cards in the last two years.

Not so fast on the UG call, bounces Lage and can be an Annul. Also has anti-Thassa text.

02-19-2021, 07:52 AM

UG has some utility, but I don't think the power level is all that high. I agree though that off the bat, UR and BG look like the best ones with the UG being marginal and the two white ones being maybe EDH playable (in a pinch).

Barook

02-19-2021, 08:05 AM

Since the BG one can return any land, it can act as a mini-Loam to return a Wasteland while also killing a small creature or permanent - for 2 mana. That's a huge swing in tempo.

Fox

02-19-2021, 08:25 AM

Since the BG one can return any land, it can act as a mini-Loam to return a Wasteland while also killing a small creature or permanent - for 2 mana. That's a huge swing in tempo.

"Destroy target noncreature"

02-19-2021, 08:31 AM

"Destroy target noncreature"

Yes, but it can also give -3/-1 to a creature. So, while not necessarily lethal to any creature, it can remove some small ones.

Reeplcheep

02-19-2021, 09:11 AM

The power level on these cards is just right (which means they will only see play as situational role players in legacy). And that’s good.

The BG is not overpowered but will 100% see play. Decays primary purpose is to kill chalice and small creatures. Loam’s primary point is to recur wasteland. This card does both effects and will see play in B lands builds and loam decks.

It’s 2 W6 activations and can also kill chalice and vial. Kill a mom, get back a wasteland is 90% of what w6 got banned for. This is faster and more flexible but not infinite value. Anything 2 mana that has a chance to 2 for 1 will see play.

More fringe, the face drain is quite relevant vs or in marit lage decks. The shrink in combination with big creatures like KOTR could kill things decay could not (for example, a ooze with one counter can block a mandrills for free). The mill screws up mystic sanctuary or doomsday. The mill clears library/brainstorm and digs for an actual loam. Can blank surgical on wasteland or depths.

The 1UR seems iffy compared to kcommand, but actually is really good compared to abrade. It gives a mana refund, so it can actually be the same mana cost any turn past t2. It is a better top deck. It can go face. It can pitch to fow. Later in the game, looting is totally worth the extra mana.

The looting increases the floor of the card substantially, just like the cycling on Wilt does. Would you bring in abrade vs lands? It could easily be dead, but if not you could get punked by a random sphere. Dig for lands and making a mana source in response to a port though is also great. Or shock their face and dig for another bolt if they are at 5 and about to make a lage.

All the x/3s just got banned. This seems very good in ur delver.

1UG one might see play in infect sb since it covers both planeswalkers, Marit Lage, and plague engineers. But pretty bad.

The other ones are >3 cmc spells in legacy, but totally fine for standard.

Edit: I did miss that UG beats doomsday sometimes, maybe ok?

Kage

02-19-2021, 02:13 PM

By themselves those Japanese cards look fantastic but is this really how mtg cards should look like?

Ronald Deuce

02-19-2021, 04:20 PM

By themselves those Japanese cards look fantastic but is this really how mtg cards should look like?

Given that the card-frame changes were ridiculous already and that they jumped the shark with Amonkhet masterpieces, I'm almost okay with those.

But yeah, wasn't the whole point of having things like a colored border to make it so you could tell what cards . . . uh . . . do?

ESG

02-19-2021, 11:15 PM

Given that the card-frame changes were ridiculous already and that they jumped the shark with Amonkhet masterpieces, I'm almost okay with those.

But yeah, wasn't the whole point of having things like a colored border to make it so you could tell what cards . . . uh . . . do?

Time Spiral Remastered will be a soothing return to form.

Fox

02-19-2021, 11:19 PM

By themselves those Japanese cards look fantastic but is this really how mtg cards should look like?

No border >>> modern border.

chunderbucket

02-21-2021, 05:52 PM

Why are the blue commands the best ones, like always

What do they have against the color pair boros exactly

Zoid

02-21-2021, 07:22 PM

Why are the blue commands the best ones, like always

What do they have against the color pair boros exactly

Because their narrow definitions of the color pie basically reduces the "available" effects to be borderline worthless.

Remember the Forces in Modern Horizons?
White and red aren't even worth the paper they're printed on.

It's surprising that they even bothered to complete the cycle.
In Zendikar they just gave up on the Inscriptions and didn't do a red or white one.

On another note, why is this spoiled already?
It feels like Kaldheim came out like 2 weeks ago.
I know February is a short month but still.

Since this is the Harry Potter set, I'm kind of interested to see for what themes they go and utterly fail at.
Can't wait for the backwards ass anti-bullying message.
Bonus points for yet another Teferi as teacher and failing his character completely.
Would at least allow for an all Teferis deck in Modern.

Fox

02-21-2021, 07:56 PM

There is a pretty outrageous amount of Stifle main, Torpor SB without any 12/12s in the deck going on right now. Red Force is hard castable into a fresh untap for Stifle - this is a better use than most non-Dreadnought decks have for Stifle. The red one has legs. Like you actually have to justify why this card isn't in such a deck if it can make RR.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-21-2021, 10:55 PM

Calling the other four cards in the cycle "Force of" is how you knew the whole cycle was going to blow chunks after Negation.

chunderbucket

02-22-2021, 04:11 AM

Reeplcheep

02-22-2021, 07:59 AM

Because their narrow definitions of the color pie basically reduces the "available" effects to be borderline worthless.

Remember the Forces in Modern Horizons?
White and red aren't even worth the paper they're printed on.

It's surprising that they even bothered to complete the cycle.
In Zendikar they just gave up on the Inscriptions and didn't do a red or white one.

I think WOTC does Boros dirty as much as you do, but the white force (being proactive) could easily have been too strong. It sees more play than force of despair anyways.

Not completing the cycle gave us 2 of the strongest Boros cards for legacy in recent years, whereas none of the inscriptions see legacy play: the “retreat” cycle of Valkut Exploration and Felidar Retreat.

Imo in the context of standard both white commands are better than the Simic one. The GB is better than the Izzet one imo.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-22-2021, 08:52 AM

I'm still mad that they decided what older formats needed was yet more free countermagic for blue just so that pure greed can never ever be punished. And also fuck Loam I guess.

Anyway enough ranting, let's see what decks will be made further unplayable by whatever broken blue printing they'll come up with in this set.

Eh, i think Modern is better with Force in it which was their goal. Even in legacy Force only gets played in limited quantities to supplement original flavor Force for when you Absolutely Positively Must keep the combo deck in check.

FTW

02-22-2021, 07:42 PM

Good thing no deck at all could profit off playing 12 Forces and become Tier 1. And that 80-card control has no chance of beating glass cannon combo by maindecking 7-8 Forces.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-22-2021, 11:21 PM

Good thing no deck at all could profit off playing 12 Forces and become Tier 1. And that 80-card control has no chance of beating glass cannon combo by maindecking 7-8 Forces.

Yes, but unironically.
I even checked the latest challenge for 12 force...

Reeplcheep

02-23-2021, 08:31 AM

Hot take: gb command could revitalize BUG delver. The problem with the deck has always been lack of reach and this is the first legacy playable lightning helix (shitty as it may be) in those colours.

Reeplcheep

02-23-2021, 08:32 AM

Yes, but unironically.
I even checked the latest challenge for 12 force...

He’s talking about turbo Tibalt, which ran 4 fow 4 fob 4 misdirect before being banned.

Fox

02-23-2021, 08:32 AM

Hot take: gb command could revitalize BUG delver. The problem with the deck has always been lack of reach and this is the first legacy playable lightning helix (shitty as it may be) in those colours.

Collective Brutality disagrees in the strongest possible way.

The problems BUG Delver had was that it's discard suite was worse than Probe/Therapy, into UR Delver was spamming PoP, into RUG Delver had Dreadhorde + Wrenn or Oko. So what they really need is to wake up and realize that life gain (Cling to Dust) is how they need to address their primary problem: enemy Bolts. Thoughtseize is the fundamental deckbuilding error.

02-23-2021, 08:45 AM

Brutality always trades even though where this Witherbloom Command should usually 2-1. That being said, it being a Sorcery is a real hinderance still.

I think it is definitely potentially playable, but I think we'll have to see how the meta looks to say if it is really good or just another fair option. If Miracles shapes up to be a real force, I am not sure this is where BUG wants to be to fight it, for example.

Fox

02-23-2021, 08:51 AM

chunderbucket

02-23-2021, 08:51 AM

Good thing no deck at all could profit off playing 12 Forces and become Tier 1. And that 80-card control has no chance of beating glass cannon combo by maindecking 7-8 Forces.

The issue is that obnoxious greed and catch-all countermagic aren't punished enough. The CMC1 uncounterable Elf is a step in the good direction but we need way, way more printings of the kind so that blue players actually think before automatically jamming 8+ cantrips and 6+ forces in their deck. Uncounterable Chalice or uncounterable Thalia would be a nice start. But knowing Wizards if we get that it'll probably be in blue lol

Reeplcheep

02-23-2021, 09:07 AM

There's also a large number of Delver pilots playing the legacy has-been YP. At no point will this new card take a slot before Golgari Charm (which also hits B2B and Moon). You don't want to cast this new card anywhere near a Delver mirror.

Rebuy a wasteland, kill a young peezy is a crazy blow out in the mirror. Or win the goyf battle plus shock face. The fact that it also answers problematic permanents like vial, mox diamond, exploration, wishclaw talisman and can go face is gravy.

W6 literally got banned for being too good in delver and this is 2 immediate W6 activations for the same price. How can it be unplayable?

I tried to play collective brutality but it’s so bad vs counter magic it is unplayable without gy/madness synergies. Like therapy in the post-probe era.

Reeplcheep

02-23-2021, 09:18 AM

The issue is that obnoxious greed and catch-all countermagic aren't punished enough. The CMC1 uncounterable Elf is a step in the good direction but we need way, way more printings of the kind so that blue players actually think before automatically jamming 8+ cantrips and 6+ forces in their deck. Uncounterable Chalice or uncounterable Thalia would be a nice start. But knowing Wizards if we get that it'll probably be in blue lol

Cantrips and forces are just the best thing to be doing in a vacuum. But without the ridiculous card advantage engines blue decks are quite beatable. D&T, nic fit, lands, gaak, TES all hard punish decks full of counters in their own way (at the cost of horrible combo mus)

Fox

02-23-2021, 10:31 AM

Rebuy a wasteland, kill a young peezy is a crazy blow out in the mirror. Or win the goyf battle plus shock face. The fact that it also answers problematic permanents like vial, mox diamond, exploration, wishclaw talisman and can go face is gravy.

W6 literally got banned for being too good in delver and this is 2 immediate W6 activations for the same price. How can it be unplayable?

I tried to play collective brutality but it’s so bad vs counter magic it is unplayable without gy/madness synergies. Like therapy in the post-probe era.

Most of the functions offered by this new card are covered by Trophy or Decay. With the banning of Astrolabe, it's one corner case evaporated: it would have been better than Decay/Trophy at cleaning up an Astrolabe and an Ice-Fang.

A critical mistake in approaching BUG Delver is to think your deck is relevant to the point that doing something harder matters at all. The main problems were *strategic* meaning they cannot be overcome. The strategy of BUG Delver is to jam 1 card combos; so when someone is jamming more and better 1-card combos (i.e. Probe/Therapy, Wrenn/Oko/DHA) you lose by default. These strategies are banned.

The last problem is *tactical* - you lost DRS's lifegain and started dying to Delver with Bolt +/- PoP [primarily UR]. This new card fails to correct this tactical deficit (does not address UR Delver's onboard damage sources). Playing Thoughtseize inflames this deficit further.

Reach does not matter. Fighting Lightning Bolt out of Delver is the single most important aspect to address for any potential new additions. This new BG card was dead on arrival, and the existence, without use, of Collective Brutality told you all you need to know.

Barook

02-23-2021, 10:40 AM

Why are people comparing the new BG command with Brutality? This one can generate card advantage, Brutality can only generate card parity. This seems rather silly to compare (as I don't give a fuck about Delver), even if both can drain life or kill creatures.

FTW

02-23-2021, 11:24 AM

Most of the functions offered by this new card are covered by Trophy or Decay. With the banning of Astrolabe, it's one corner case evaporated: it would have been better than Decay/Trophy at cleaning up an Astrolabe and an Ice-Fang.

Once you consider that the metagame is no longer just Snow Island + Snow Forest.dec, there are a lot of relevant 2-for-1 cases

vs D&T: Kill Vial + Mom/Thalia/Flickerwisp

vs Esper Vial: Kill Vial + Soulherder/Flickerwisp/Recruiter/Strix

vs Goblins: Kill Vial/Chalice + Lackey/WInstigator/dork or return Wasteland @ Caverns

(remember Aether Vial now has text beyond "T: Attack for 3", and a single card that answers both Vial and Cavern does a lot for blue to swing the Vial matchups)

vs Maverick: Kill Mom/mana dork/Hexdrinker/Thalia/Arbor + Sylvan/Jitte

vs Delver: Kill unflipped Delver/Borrower/YP + return Wasteland/fetch (kill threat and don't lose the mana battle)

vs Thalia Stompy: Kill Chalice/Suppression Field + Thalia

vs Doomsday: Win the game. Then gain 2 life.

vs Storm: Kill Wishclaw/LED/Grid/Carpet + Hope/Xantid OR return Wasteland (any of those plays does a lot vs their anti-blue plan)

vs BG Depths: return Wasteland + Go above 20 life = Time Walk

in BG Depths: return Depths/Stage/Urborg/Bayou + put opponent below 20 = Time Walk

Many others I couldn't think of.

That doesn't mean this card will replace Decay overall, but it has relevant 2-for-1s vs a big chunk of the field now that fair creatures and artifacts are playable again. The rest of the time, being modal should be useful.

Reeplcheep

02-23-2021, 11:25 AM

W6 has shown us how strong rebuying wasteland is in delver when it is on a flexible card. The chance at a 2 for 1 and flexibility is absolutely worth being a bit worse at killing big creatures. No-one in Grixis plays abrade over kcommand because it only deals 2 damage.

You know what is really good at stabilizing vs UR? Killing their 4/4 sprite dragon with your delver and lightning helixing their face. If getting bolted to the dome is a problem, than the life drain effect is worth almost a full card by itself.

Saying the command is unplayable because brutality is bad is like saying ravens crime is bad thus Kcommand is unplayable.

FTW

02-23-2021, 11:31 AM

Reeplcheep

02-23-2021, 11:35 AM

Lets see other use cases:

Vs bant-Icles: kill sylvan, mill their terminus (this may be difficult at sorcery speed)

Vs burn: kill the 2 cmc sulfuric vortex thing plus gain 2 life.

Vs loam: kill a bob plus a chalice. Oof this one is good.

Vs show & tell: drain 2 plus rebuy wasteland & clear a brainstorm, not amazing but better than decay.

Vs gaak: kill your own delver to clear bridge plus destroy altar.

02-23-2021, 12:10 PM

PirateKing

02-23-2021, 01:54 PM

Disingenuous arguments and spurious comparisons? Legacy really is back baby!

I can't wait until the card is out and then when it isn't in 100% of top 8 lists, they can say "I told you it wasn't playable!"

February's Vintage Challenge had 7 Black Lotus in the top 8, so I will accept my apology in the form of an interpretive dance, thank you very much.

02-23-2021, 02:25 PM

February's Vintage Challenge had 7 Black Lotus in the top 8, so I will accept my apology in the form of an interpretive dance, thank you very much.

Circa-2010 Workshop decks, is that you? (http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40566.0)

Fox

02-23-2021, 08:11 PM

Mr. Safety

02-24-2021, 08:24 AM

To be fair, there is a higher deckbuilding cost to Collective Brutality compared to the new golgari charm. One requires BG, the other needs spare cards to pitch to gain the same modality. One is a natural 2-for-1, the other has a real cost to getting more than 1 card. The only deck that I saw profitably using Collective Brutality to it's fullest potential was Br Reanimator in the Deathrite Shaman era. This new card is splashable in any BGx deck without any cost other than needing targets for the modes.

Fox

02-24-2021, 08:30 AM

There has to be a point to a card @Mr. Safety, especially in decks with no strategy beyond jamming the most pushed 1-card combos. If BUG Delver needed reach, it would have been playing Coll Brut. For some reason people see this new sorcery and say "finally BUG Delver can fix it's main problem of not having burn"...with a card that is super suspect in against Delver w/ Bolt. It's not addressing any problems, that's why it's unplayable.

Reeplcheep

02-24-2021, 08:32 AM

These are scenarios that can happen @Reeplcheep, but Delver doesn't really get the option to ignore its main problems for corner case scenarios. This card has no meaningful text against a flipped UR Delver, and that's what matters.

@FTW that comparison does not work. Abrade had to be not 1cmc b/c of Chalice. Every other card that did the same thing [Shatter] on that cmc had a backup plan that attacked a more fringe resource than a creature (Smash, Grudge).

For every scenario you listed, we could make small alterations and see the same stuff written for Collective Brutality. None of this modality matters if the card is failing to address the fundamental deficit. The thing about Abrade is that it played precisely because it addresses a fundamental deficit: artifact removal.

Even if ur delver is the only matchup you care about, it’s should be played there as an effective 2.5 for 1 (2/3 of a bolt face, 2/3 of their bolt face, 1/2 of a mental note (formerly played in thresh) and rebuy wasteland) for only 2 mana.

In a deck that can’t afford card disadvantage comparing a 1 for 1 or even 1 for 2 to a 2 for 1 is not being very honest with your arguments.

Edit: I don’t understand why you are so worried about the ur delver matchup. AFAIK bug delver is great in mirrors as the bigger delver deck. Almost everyone had said that it’s weakness was that no reach makes it weaker vs combo and control where decay is dead. This is a decay that is never dead.

Mr. Safety

02-24-2021, 10:16 AM

In a deck that can’t afford card disadvantage comparing a 1 for 1 or even 1 for 2 to a 2 for 1 is not being very honest with your arguments.

Bingo, this is what I was thinking. Delver archetypes in general need some form of card advantage, at least out of the sideboard, to help offset the fundamental weakness of their archetype (as Fox neatly described.) I've always seen delver decks as not needing reach per se, but rather a way to somehow not fall behind in cards before grindier decks take over. Bolt doesn't fix that problem either. A card that plays multiple roles at such an efficient cost is the kind of card that can help fill holes. Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, and additional removal saw plenty of maindeck/sideboard play in BUG Delver in years past. This is a card that does those things fairly well, provides card advantage, and unlike Library can actually flip your Delvers (EDIT: it's an enchantment which doesn't trigger delver, but it's triggers help stack your top deck to flip delver.)

Barook

03-22-2021, 03:27 PM

First spoilers are out:

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/professoronyx.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/kasminaenigmasage.jpg

I wonder what broken dumb shit they're going to put on cheaper Magecraft cards. :rolleyes:

BenBleiweiss

03-22-2021, 04:42 PM

https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/0/1/013eeb99-1b66-4fba-ad96-78deee901ea4.jpg?1616430491
https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/6/b/6bfe64f9-8b03-41f6-a47b-fade397ad9d1.jpg?1562920423

Legs?

03-22-2021, 04:42 PM

Damn, that is probably the best art for Liliana in my opinion and it gets sort of wasted on a 6-mana card.

Here are all the 'walkers that have no plus abilities of their own:
Ashiok, Dream Render
Chandra, Acolyte of Flame
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Dovin, Hand of Control
Garruk Relentless
Huatli, the Sun's Heart
Jaya, Venerated Firemage
Jeska, Thrice Reborn
Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
Kaya, Bane of the Dead
Kaya, Ghost Assassin
Kaya, Ghost Haunter
Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner
Nahiri, Storm of Stone
Narset, Parter of Veils
Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
Sarkhan the Mad
Teyo, the Shieldmage
The Wanderer
Tibalt, Rakish Instigator

I guess Narset is the most obviously good one to go with Kasmina, but doesn't seem all the great at first blush.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-22-2021, 05:53 PM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-22-2021, 05:58 PM

BenBleiweiss

03-22-2021, 06:23 PM

8 mana.
Is this easier or harder in a TES

Just to bring this back around:

Chain of Smog breaks the entire Magecraft mechanic.

I have no clue what's in this set, but I have to imagine there's a 1 or 2 drop creature (or artifact) that can spellcraft and kill an opponent (Mill for 1. Life loss for 1. etc).

How good does it become of there's a 1 drop or 2 drop black/artifact enabler for Chain of Smog?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-22-2021, 06:34 PM

Just to bring this back around:

Chain of Smog breaks the entire Magecraft mechanic.

I have no clue what's in this set, but I have to imagine there's a 1 or 2 drop creature (or artifact) that can spellcraft and kill an opponent (Mill for 1. Life loss for 1. etc).

How good does it become of there's a 1 drop or 2 drop black/artifact enabler for Chain of Smog?

It depends how playable they are on their own, because this combo makes you discard your hand and go all in, it would be helpful if your deck was functionally before you went ll in, otherwise you're just a different (worse?) Storm deck.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-22-2021, 06:38 PM

Barook

03-22-2021, 06:55 PM

Just to bring this back around:

Chain of Smog breaks the entire Magecraft mechanic.

I have no clue what's in this set, but I have to imagine there's a 1 or 2 drop creature (or artifact) that can spellcraft and kill an opponent (Mill for 1. Life loss for 1. etc).

How good does it become of there's a 1 drop or 2 drop black/artifact enabler for Chain of Smog?
Probably T0, as both things mentioned could easily go onto 1 drops, knowing Wizards. They don't for test for Eternal or Commander. Let's say there's a "Magecraft - Opponent loses 1 life" creature for :b:.

T1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, 1-drop, Smog, win. That's Channel/Fireball tier.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-22-2021, 07:02 PM

Probably T0, as both things mentioned could easily go onto 1 drops, knowing Wizards. They don't for test for Eternal or Commander. Let's say there's a "Magecraft - Opponent loses 1 life" creature for :b:.

T1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, 1-drop, Smog, win. That's Channel/Fireball tier.

It could be as easy as a new swiftspear

Fox

03-22-2021, 08:03 PM

Reeplcheep

03-22-2021, 09:24 PM

Unlike tendrils of agony, chain of smog is still an easier to cast wrench mind, which is modern playable.

Having 1 of your combo pieces be reasonably good protection/disruption is insane.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-22-2021, 09:56 PM

Unlike tendrils of agony, chain of smog is still an easier to cast wrench mind, which is modern playable.

Having 1 of your combo pieces be reasonably good protection/disruption is insane.

Pretty sure you can't use Chain of Smog offensively to protect the combo, since the opponent will either discard two other cards and break up the combo or understand that you need to assemble a combo whereas they just need any threat and copy it to destroy your hand.

Barook

03-23-2021, 06:45 AM

Is probably a border case, but you can use it offensively if you have sided in Leyline of Sanctity in certain match-ups.

Tylert

03-23-2021, 11:55 AM

Ral, storm conduit was doing the same thing for 2 mana less...
Still saw no play at all....

BenBleiweiss

03-23-2021, 04:38 PM

Ral, storm conduit was doing the same thing for 2 mana less...
Still saw no play at all....

Again, the issue is that it works with the entire mechanic, and theres likely to be a one or two drop that can kill an opponent (ping for 1 / mill for 1)

Wrath of Pie

03-23-2021, 05:05 PM

Again, the issue is that it works with the entire mechanic, and theres likely to be a one or two drop that can kill an opponent (ping for 1 / mill for 1)
That is probably Wizards' way to solve the Storm "problem" of it not being a creature-based engine.

03-25-2021, 12:15 PM

https://i.imgur.com/zXTQlR0.png

03-25-2021, 12:19 PM

https://i.imgur.com/QIEKSWv.png

https://i.imgur.com/gcFnjh5.png

03-25-2021, 12:24 PM

https://i.imgur.com/ZBmHkFd.png
https://i.imgur.com/7tJiftP.png
https://i.imgur.com/PeLqvxX.png

Barook

03-25-2021, 12:24 PM

The Japanese ones look cool.

Time Warp art looks cool, but the art of the other ones and those frames in general look like ass.

03-25-2021, 12:28 PM

https://i.imgur.com/aQtrKBi.png
https://i.imgur.com/EJMLaZ6.png
https://i.imgur.com/RNBveyg.png
https://i.imgur.com/5cYG4Ck.png

Barook

03-25-2021, 12:32 PM

Depending on the lessons you can run, Professor might very strong as it's a 2 mana CA/tutor card. Looting is the less good option, but it's still something.

03-25-2021, 12:36 PM

https://i.imgur.com/JEQd4ZO.png
https://i.imgur.com/7w8Pewy.png
https://i.imgur.com/dUuqYz5.png
https://i.imgur.com/O2Am3f0.png
https://i.imgur.com/ObarzW7.png

03-25-2021, 12:40 PM

https://i.imgur.com/Axcy1B7.png
https://i.imgur.com/bute6zL.png
https://i.imgur.com/unlXpZD.png
https://i.imgur.com/mK4RdTy.png

03-25-2021, 12:44 PM

https://i.imgur.com/zJMydWt.png
https://i.imgur.com/oaVG5UL.png
https://i.imgur.com/qCFOmwF.png
https://i.imgur.com/7a73ja5.png

Barook

03-25-2021, 12:46 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/witherbloomapprentice.jpg

And there's our Chain of Smog wincon - it's even GSZable. Two cards, 4 mana.

Willowdusk might be interesting with Ballista.

03-25-2021, 12:47 PM

Sorry about the hack-crop-jobs, I suck. Not sure if I missed any though.

morgan_coke

03-25-2021, 01:50 PM

03-25-2021, 02:24 PM

I like how equally the love is spread for the different apprentices.

GU: card advantage/mana fixing
GB: combo win con and reach and lifegain
WB: um... one of your guys gets +1/+0... for this turn

It looks like they accidentally mixed up the abilities of the WB and the WR ones, honestly.

Barook

03-25-2021, 02:56 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/abundantharvest.jpg

What exactly is this? A MH2 preview? :eyebrow:

03-25-2021, 03:03 PM

What exactly is this? A MH2 preview? :eyebrow:

Yeah, that actually is exactly what it is. So it will only be legal in Legacy/Vintage/EDH until MH's release, I think they said.

Barook

03-25-2021, 03:07 PM

https://i.imgur.com/Axcy1B7.png
This one is actually brutal with Retrace spells - his ability feeds retrace and retrace feeds his ability. Throw in something like Raven's Crime and you've got yourself a combo.

Reeplcheep

03-25-2021, 04:10 PM

This one is actually brutal with Retrace spells - his ability feeds retrace and retrace feeds his ability. Throw in something like Raven's Crime and you've got yourself a combo.

Does it do that better than land tax or life from loam though? Could compliment it well at least.

Barook

03-25-2021, 05:20 PM

Does it do that better than land tax or life from loam though? Could compliment it well at least.
In land-heavy decks, it should synergize with Loam quite nicely. You also thin your deck from lands and assuming the game goes long enough, you can even stack your deck to a certain extend.

But even without retrace, this card might end up just being another one in the long list of recent UG mistakes. The amount of CA this thing can potentially create is just plain stupid, even if it's just lands. Combine it with something like Library to always hit and dig deeper and your opponents are in for a world of hurt. It even has AWESOME and GSZable.

Edit: Oh God, I just realized how stupid Magecraft is with Flusterstorm. This mechanic is completely fucked.

ronco

03-25-2021, 05:45 PM

This one is actually brutal with Retrace spells - his ability feeds retrace and retrace feeds his ability. Throw in something like Raven's Crime and you've got yourself a combo.

They haven't used the "in any order" templating in a while, have they? I feel like they switched to a random order a few years/sets ago.

https://i.imgur.com/Axcy1B7.png

Barook

03-25-2021, 06:06 PM

They haven't used the "in any order" templating in a while, have they? I feel like they switched to a random order a few years/sets ago.
Which makes it even more weird. Maybe it felt too time-consuming to randomise every time, given the amount of triggers?

The Flusterstorm thing really worries me. You should be able to easily get 3-5 triggers out of it - per Apprentice. Those things stack and can easily get silly really fast - especially if you run GSZ (for extra copies) that also trigger Apprentice. Uro and Brainstorm are good ways to utilize that flood of extra lands. Brainstorm can also set up the next trigger to definitely hit. Scroll Rack might also work.

ronco

03-25-2021, 06:24 PM

Yeah, that actually is exactly what it is. So it will only be legal in Legacy/Vintage/EDH until MH's release, I think they said.In that case, if this is true, modern will get dark ritual. EDIT- these appear just to be variants like the Japanese cards, H, did you see something else about it relating to MH2?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/dark-ritual-5/

Its expansion is STA.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-25-2021, 06:46 PM

Just want to point out that you can Chain of Vapor your own Manabase for lots of Magecraft triggers.

Probably better in Vintage and EDH where you can generate Mana by bouncing your Moxes.

Could be really good anyway, Chain IS a good card on its own!

TheAmazingKitchen

03-25-2021, 07:43 PM

This is probably janky, but does this guy combo with Nourrishing Shoal (or any other shoal) + a fatty ?

https://i.imgur.com/ObarzW7.png

the Thin White Duke

03-25-2021, 10:36 PM

This is probably janky, but does this guy combo with Nourrishing Shoal (or any other shoal) + a fatty ?

https://i.imgur.com/ObarzW7.png

So they've changed the cmc template to spell's "Mana value"?
Wizards f'n up Magic again. Might be time for me to rage quit. Stopping f'n up my game Wizards!!!

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-25-2021, 10:38 PM

So they've changed the cmc template to spell's "Mana value"?
Wizards f'n up Magic again. Might be time for me to rage quit. Stopping f'n up my game Wizards!!!

They annouced this a while ago but yeah. I feel super alientated from the game with this change and the expanded universe they're planning.

Tylert

03-26-2021, 06:43 AM

They annouced this a while ago but yeah. I feel super alientated from the game with this change and the expanded universe they're planning.

That a little bit over the top :)
Just play magic, it's still the same game!
who ever cared about flavor anyway?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-26-2021, 07:44 AM

In that case, if this is true, modern will get dark ritual. EDIT- these appear just to be variants like the Japanese cards, H, did you see something else about it relating to MH2?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/dark-ritual-5/

Its expansion is STA.

During the video they were explicit that they're all reprints except this card which will be in MH2.
it will be legal on arena (Historic) once the set goes live, but not in Modern until it's offical first printing in MH2.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-26-2021, 07:44 AM

https://i.imgur.com/JEQd4ZO.png

Exile a Dreadnought, get a pair of dreadnoughts. Thankfully one can eat the other.

Zoid

03-26-2021, 08:18 AM

Which makes it even more weird. Maybe it felt too time-consuming to randomise every time, given the amount of triggers?

Pretty sure the randomise was just because it doesn't require an extra interaction in digital.
It's the same as when thy changed Ajani's Pridemate to be mandatory, to have less manual confirmations.
A lot of cards in recent years have been templated to reduce the number of player interactions to smooth digital play and I'm sure they stated that numerous times.
Why they change it now is anyone's guess.

03-26-2021, 08:33 AM

Why they change it now is anyone's guess.

Honestly, the fact that "any" is less characters than "random" given how much text is already on that card could even be the answer here, if they really wanted to put that flavor text for whatever reason.

Wrath of Pie

03-26-2021, 09:42 AM

So they've changed the cmc template to spell's "Mana value"?
Wizards f'n up Magic again. Might be time for me to rage quit. Stopping f'n up my game Wizards!!!
We should respond by referring to prices as "cash value."

Reeplcheep

03-26-2021, 09:45 AM

Reeplcheep

03-26-2021, 09:49 AM

If you keep the deck to minimal fetches you could also use the prophecy cycle of land-pitch spells to keep going maybe.

Barook

03-26-2021, 10:46 AM

The interactions with flusterstorm could easily make a fair storm deck. Ponder, daze, bauble, fluster, fluster is 14 triggers on t3.

If you go through the pain of flustering properly you should even get ponder to resolve.
Not sure if Baubles would fit such a deck since you want instants and sorceries. Daze and Flusterstorm alongside cantrips are good since they're good on their own in most cases. Now they just happen to randomly produce absurd value.

Question is, are there any other good, cheap spells that produce alot of copies or are recastable? Aside from Retrace, there's also Replicate, but the later seems kinda niche and mana-intensive.

drekonja

03-26-2021, 02:49 PM

Could Dragonsguard Elite be played in delver like decks? It would be obviously competing with Tarmogoyf. Advantages are not affected to graveyard hate, disadvantages are that you have to build it before becoming a big threat. But at least it has 2 toughness against Plague engineer.

Cire

03-26-2021, 03:43 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/witherbloomapprentice.jpg

And there's our Chain of Smog wincon - it's even GSZable. Two cards, 4 mana.

Willowdusk might be interesting with Ballista.

Combo

4 Apprentice
3 GSZ
4 Chain of Smog
2 Personal Tutor

Cantrips

4 BS
4 Ponder

Distruption

2 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 FOW
4 Daze
2 FON

Some Mana Accel?

3 NH?

Other

4 GSZ Targets

17 Lands

Something like that?

Barook

03-26-2021, 03:49 PM

Combo

4 Apprentice
3 GSZ
4 Chain of Smog
2 Personal Tutor

Cantrips

4 BS
4 Ponder

Distruption

2 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 FOW
4 Daze
2 FON

Some Mana Accel?

3 NH?

Other

4 GSZ Targets

17 Lands

Something like that?
How good are counters at protecting the combo, though? You do lose your hand when going off, so your opponents could wait and do their thing after you are hellbent. That's something to keep in mind when designing the deck.

I would probably run something like Uro as a back-up plan, especially with GSZ present.

kirkusjones

03-26-2021, 04:51 PM

Wrath of Pie

03-26-2021, 07:31 PM

https://i.redd.it/hyu3rz4w7ep61.png

I don't think words say much here.

Whoshim

03-26-2021, 08:18 PM

I thought it was a joke when I first saw it. It looks like an actual photograph pasted onto the picture. I haven't liked the realistic style of most of Magic art over the past decade, but this is ridiculous. (I really like the style of the other cards of this type though.)

Edit: It looks like the artist did the same thing with Harmonize:

https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/9/e/9e1f1110-0919-49cd-8b5b-979b2744fd3c.jpg?1616707102

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-26-2021, 08:32 PM

More. Arts. Like. Stasis.
No not like that.
Please not like that. Stasis, not paradigm shift.

Whoshim

03-26-2021, 08:49 PM

The sad thing is that it's not like she can't make good art. Here is something from her website that I think looks great:
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5609e7a3e4b047501ab23876/1450382312619-PBVU2TV4C7AS50U8UFL9/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kBFYAqP_ZKRGMEhweDJ4fzNZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PIOZ6T6zt5WNpW1GRhRwOx5Yeq4qXDpi6c9XuOKsAg8SIKMshLAGzx4R3EDFOm1kBS/image-asset.jpeg?format=1500w
(http://www.carlyjanine.com/)

Barook

03-26-2021, 09:47 PM

Those two arts are certainly contenders for the worst arts in Magic history. They look like somebody took a photo and used Paint to doodle over it.

How did those get part the Art Director?

Why no Veil of Summer and Flusterstorm?
Veil of Summer is good idea since you need pro-active protection. Maybe Silence, too? Flusterstorm is kinda iffy since it can't really protect you when you go off and it isn't as good without the UG Apprentice for Magecraft cheese.

Interestingly enough, Chain of Smog + UG Apprentice would allow you to dump the entire number of lands into your GY. Not sure if you could make an alternate wincon out of that somehow.

Ronald Deuce

03-26-2021, 09:59 PM

Oh, FFS.

Are we really complaining about this when they LITERALLY PUT A PICTURE OF A SUN on a "sexxxy" version of Blood Moon a couple of years ago?

I paid two grand for a Tabernac last year. This art's way better than the art on my Tabernac.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-26-2021, 11:21 PM

I paid two grand for a Tabernac last year. This art's way better than the art on my Tabernac.

This is amazing.

Zoid

03-27-2021, 12:02 AM

To live the day I think I'd rather have Phil Foglio art than that.

While I don't like most of the mystical something arts, I at least appreciate the attempt to make something more expressionistic and less boring hyper-realistic like in the last decade.
However these look like they belong into an art exhibition for snobs to show how cultured they are.

Maybe I'm just getting old.

HdH_Cthulhu

03-27-2021, 04:29 AM

Its uncanny valley but instead of looking creepy the more realistic the card gets, it looks like some kind of low effort meme.

Barook

03-27-2021, 07:43 AM

Its uncanny valley but instead of looking creepy the more realistic the card gets, it looks like some kind of low effort meme.
The main problem the realistic look clashing badly with the Kindergarden-tier doodles and gaudy, large, mono-colored areas.

colo

03-27-2021, 11:24 AM

https://i.redd.it/hyu3rz4w7ep61.png

I don't think words say much here.

Wha... what the FUCK.

This has to be the objectively worst art that ever made it into the game. The spell/card name it was created (or rather, "has happened") for is truly fitting.

Tylert

03-27-2021, 12:13 PM

Wha... what the FUCK.

This has to be the objectively worst art that ever made it into the game. The spell/card name it was created (or rather, "has happened") for is truly fitting.

IT's all about the dress. the rest could be fine, but the dress looks like it has been done with MS Paint :)

Mr Miagi

03-27-2021, 02:04 PM

I think I'm actually done with MtG. This time for real. Prehaps it's time after 20 years.

Kage

03-27-2021, 02:43 PM

So WotC's new milking plan is to release card with better borders/art than the regular product? See TSR Extras and these new cards that look fantastic (apart from the above abomination).

Zoid

03-27-2021, 03:27 PM

morgan_coke

03-27-2021, 04:51 PM

Whoshim

03-27-2021, 07:04 PM

Honestly I'm surprised it took them this long to discover the various "Pimp my deck" threads and the attached prices.

I think it is crazy that it took them this long as well, but I like it as long as they do it right. From what I have heard, the Pokemon TCG has lots of different art versions of cards, so getting a playable copy of any card is usually relatively cheap. It is only expensive if you want particular art. This way, everyone can play the game with whatever deck they like, just maybe not with the art that they want. That way, players can play the game, and the company can still get money. Something like the Godzilla basic land Secret Lair is exactly what WotC should be doing, in my opinion. I like the fact that each pack is going to have one of these special art cards.

Barook

03-27-2021, 08:50 PM

So WotC's new milking plan is to release card with better borders/art than the regular product? See TSR Extras and these new cards that look fantastic (apart from the above abomination).
Better art? Sometimes.

Better borders? Nah. I couldn't name even one of their experimental frames that's better than what we've had before. But we got plenty of abominations out of it, like Amonkhet's Yugioh frames. The Mystical Archives are no exception.

phonics

03-27-2021, 09:57 PM

Better art? Sometimes.

Better borders? Nah. I couldn't name even one of their experimental frames that's better than what we've had before. But we got plenty of abominations out of it, like Amonkhet's Yugioh frames. The Mystical Archives are no exception.

The Kaladesh border was nice, but every other one isn't good, it might have been nice as a rare thing, but now that every set has like normal, borderless and collector edition border, which are unique compared to other sets, there is like no cohesion between any of them. I can imagine someones 'pimp' deck with all of these different borders looking like they don't even belong to the same game, total design vomit. Just wait until we get all the crossover cards from other Hasbro IPs, and the art from secret lairs, and it makes a deck look schizophrenic. Call me old fashioned, but seeing a deck that is all old border, or old border foil will look way better than a deck full of these mix and match manufactured-to-order "pimp", its like funko popping the game.

Barook

03-28-2021, 07:47 PM

So white has hand disruption now:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Exmp9HRWgAAKZvz?format=png&name=small

Not too sure where it would fit best. 3 mana is alot for D&T and the 3-drop slot is already very crowded, but being a 3/1 flyer is nice (except against Plague Engineer). Maybe Eldrazi Taxes? It can push it out much faster, putting much more pressure onto the opponent and early game, the extra mana matters much more. It also compliments TKS nicely and somewhat comboes with Displacer.

Fox

03-28-2021, 08:11 PM

They can still cast the card, and this guy puts them on 3 lands in play already. It's a 3 mana known-Spell Pierce in a game that must already have high mana development.

Barook

03-28-2021, 08:30 PM

They can still cast the card, and this guy puts them on 3 lands in play already. It's a 3 mana known-Spell Pierce in a game that must already have high mana development.
It can beat and hit creatures, though. I agree that it's pretty expensive for hand disruption that merely taxes.

Edit:
On a different topic: Magecraft should also go well with Punishing Fire, especially with grindy cards like the UG Mage.

Also new cards:

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/ripapart.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/venerablewarsinger.jpg

Pretty interesting cards, especially for WR, which historically suck. If I read some Judges' comments right, Warsinger can bring back creatures that have died in combat. Pretty nifty, especially since trample ensures that you get your damage through after casting a removal spell to remove a blocker.

morgan_coke

03-28-2021, 11:58 PM

It can beat and hit creatures, though. I agree that it's pretty expensive for hand disruption that merely taxes.

Edit:
On a different topic: Magecraft should also go well with Punishing Fire, especially with grindy cards like the UG Mage.

Also new cards:

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/ripapart.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/venerablewarsinger.jpg

Pretty interesting cards, especially for WR, which historically suck. If I read some Judges' comments right, Warsinger can bring back creatures that have died in combat. Pretty nifty, especially since trample ensures that you get your damage through after casting a removal spell to remove a blocker.

Woah, Rip Apart is as close as WR has ever gotten to an Abrupt Decay style effect. Critters/Walkers/Arts/Enchants? I mean, Sorcery, but still, that card is strongk. Especially for the color pairing.

The important thing about the white hand tax guy is that the effect never goes away if he dies. It's permanent, so if you flicker him repeatedly, you can get their entire hand with a reverse foretold effect.

rufus

03-29-2021, 10:18 AM

[quandrix apprentice]
This one is actually brutal with Retrace spells - his ability feeds retrace and retrace feeds his ability. Throw in something like Raven's Crime and you've got yourself a combo.

Getting land cards "for free" when you cast spells has lots of synergies. It's not just retrace -there are synergies with stuff like Brainstorm, Faithless Looting, Growth Spiral, and Jeskai Ascendancy.

Interestingly enough, Chain of Smog + UG Apprentice would allow you to dump the entire number of lands into your GY. Not sure if you could make an alternate wincon out of that somehow.

You can also stack the library (like petals of insight) unless the number of cards in it is divisible by 3 and there are aren't any lands left. That makes for more possibilities.

Reeplcheep

03-29-2021, 10:22 AM

It’s the closest thing to cast a spell, draw a card, since experimental frenzy, song of creation, or monastery mentor, and is 2 cmc.

Barook

03-29-2021, 01:06 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/strictproctor.jpg

This is another card that works with Dreadnought, right?

HdH_Cthulhu

03-29-2021, 01:16 PM

I guess...

whats with mox diamond?

03-29-2021, 01:31 PM

I guess...

whats with mox diamond?

Mox Diamond is not a trigger, it's a replacement effect.

But yeah, I am pretty sure it works with Dreadnaught, since you are never required to make a mana payment if you don't want (IIRC).

Barook

03-29-2021, 01:37 PM

For better or worse, it also nerfs Uro's ETB card draw - but can also prevent the initial death trigger. Pretty double-edged sword.

rufus

03-29-2021, 01:43 PM

For better or worse, it also nerfs Uro's ETB card draw - but can also prevent the initial death trigger. Pretty double-edged sword.

It messes with the typical Prime Time stuff pretty well though.

Barook

03-29-2021, 03:09 PM

I like it that they at least try to do something with WR this time instead of doing the usual shitty combat tricks:

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/thrillingdiscovery.jpg

Reeplcheep

03-29-2021, 03:15 PM

I like it that they at least try to do something with WR this time instead of doing the usual shitty combat tricks:

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/thrillingdiscovery.jpg

Its just cathartic reunion with 2 life tacked on because W. it’s about as innovative as gerrard’s verdict but I agree at least it’s playable.

Barook

03-29-2021, 03:27 PM

Its just cathartic reunion with 2 life tacked on because W. it’s about as innovative as gerrard’s verdict but I agree at least it’s playable.
It's better than Reunion since discarding two cards isn't part of the cost. You don't 3-for-1 yourself when this is countered.

Reeplcheep

03-29-2021, 03:33 PM

I stand corrected. In modern dredge that is actually a downside but I dismissed it’s applications to fair strategies.

Also if you need 2 life but don’t have 2 cards in hand I guess.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-29-2021, 03:48 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/strictproctor.jpg

This is another card that works with Dreadnought, right?

Yup

chunderbucket

03-29-2021, 05:46 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/witherbloomapprentice.jpg

And there's our Chain of Smog wincon - it's even GSZable. Two cards, 4 mana.

Willowdusk might be interesting with Ballista.

This card is probably going to fit into a bunch of decks, not just combos. Casting this with flusterstorm back-up is going to feel dirty. Even casting a value grapeshot after a cantrip or something (so storm = 2) could put you up ahead. We should watch Magecraft cards because they could synergize well with existing Storm cards, even the ones that don't damage the opponent.

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/abundantharvest.jpg

What exactly is this? A MH2 preview? :eyebrow:

Nice cantrip for non-blue decks I guess. It finds you action on the late game and lets you land in the early game (let's be honest half the time people cast Ponder to find lands anyway). It also allows all sorts of janky combos for decks with 1 land or 1 spell lol

rufus

03-29-2021, 05:57 PM

This card is probably going to fit into a bunch of decks, not just combos. Casting this with flusterstorm back-up is going to feel dirty. Even casting a value grapeshot after a cantrip or something (so storm = 2) could put you up ahead. We should watch Magecraft cards because they could synergize well with existing Storm cards, even the ones that don't damage the opponent.
...

Does magecraft trigger once for storm, or once per storm count?

Barook

03-29-2021, 05:58 PM

I still wonder in what kind of shell Warsinger might be good. Being able to bring back copies that were previously destroyed has potential to be pretty annoying. It has some pretty good synergy with Noble Hierarch (potential T2 play + Exalted for extra power), Pridemage (Exalted + recycling it after blowing something up) and equipment in general.

There's also some tribal potential with Pyre of Heroes.

This card is probably going to fit into a bunch of decks, not just combos. Casting this with flusterstorm back-up is going to feel dirty. Even casting a value grapeshot after a cantrip or something (so storm = 2) could put you up ahead. We should watch Magecraft cards because they could synergize well with existing Storm cards, even the ones that don't damage the opponent.
People have died to DRS drain before. While those two cards aren't comparable, it should still be able to get quite the lifeswing going in a Xerox shell, especially in multiples. It just happens to have the "Oops, I win" factor with Chain of Smog.

I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually go towards a BUG shell that runs the BG and UG Apprentice, Uro, GSZ, a bunch of cantrips, Flusterstorm, some copies of Raven's Crime, some copies of Loam and 4x Chain of Smog. You can use the UG one + Crime to make the opponent empty-handed before you go off. Or you just grind your opponent into the dust with repeated Raven's Crime while BG Mages drain your opponents to death.

chunderbucket

03-29-2021, 06:24 PM

Does magecraft trigger once for storm, or once per storm count?

The way I understand it:

-You cast the spell; magecraft triggers, storm triggers
-Storm trigger resolves, you put X copies on the stack, where X is storm count
-X magecraft triggers

So a single storm spell yields you 1+X triggers. For instance, a grapeshot with previous storm count 0 will drain 2 + deal 2 damage wherever you want, and that's just the floor. With flusterstorm you could bait a counterwar with forces/dazes/etc. before slamming the flusterstorm for a lot of lifedrain. You can even flusterstorm a decay this way.

I think the card is very good and will slot in a bunch of decks. It enable combos, it's gsz-able, not too shabby on its own and naturally fits xerox strategies.

The UG looks cool but finding lands is going to be too bland if it's not a dedicated land deck like Loam or Lands. Or I guess Raven's Crime as you said lol

Sorry the RW one is unplayable, I just don't see how a 3 mana thing that needs to connect to do anything fits anywhere. I guess that's par for the course for the color pair Boros

HdH_Cthulhu

03-29-2021, 06:25 PM

If you already run Flusterstorm maybe add narset's reversal. Reversal your own fluster to generate insane amount of copys :)

Barook

03-29-2021, 06:29 PM

People have died to DRS drain before. While those two cards aren't comparable, it should still be able to get quite the lifeswing going in a Xerox shell, especially in multiples. It just happens to have the "Oops, I win" factor with Chain of Smog.

I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually go towards a BUG shell that runs the BG and UG Apprentice, Uro, GSZ, a bunch of cantrips, Flusterstorm, some copies of Raven's Crime, some copies of Loam and 4x Chain of Smog. You can use the UG one + Crime to make the opponent empty-handed before you go off. Or you just grind your opponent into the dust with repeated Raven's Crime while BG Mages drain your opponents to death.
Some additional thoughts:
The more I think about it, the more I like adding some Entomb/Snapcaster/Reanimate (or Unearth?) package to said deck. Entomb fetches Raven's Crime, Loam, Uro, random reanimation or Snapcaster targets. Snapcaster is random value and just dumb with Reanimate. You could even throw in a single Griselbrand for shit and giggles as Entomb target.

Raven's Crime with Loam or UG Mage can also be used to build up Storm count before targeting the last one with Flusterstorm for a massive Magecraft trigger fireworks. Lots of synergies going on here.

morgan_coke

03-29-2021, 07:21 PM

So, partial reveal theorycrafting puts BUG Delver at the top of the zerox pile? Ah, legacy, such an interesting format if you like the different flavors of brainstorm blue.

Barook

03-29-2021, 07:27 PM

So, partial reveal theorycrafting puts BUG Delver at the top of the zerox pile? Ah, legacy, such an interesting format if you like the different flavors of brainstorm blue.
I didn't say anything about Delver. We'll see how it's going to turn out, but it wouldn't surprise if some variation of Delver comes out on top again due to Magecraft. Because it's always like this - print something stupid, chances are a flavor of Delver becomes one of the (if not THE) top dogs of the formats. Happened plenty of times before, will happen over and over again until they nuke the shell from orbit - something very unlikely to happen.

chunderbucket

03-30-2021, 03:06 AM

Barook

03-30-2021, 05:26 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/flamescrollcelebrant.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/revelinsilence.jpg

Not as effective as Harsh Mentor as a hate card, but covers more card types and can be pumped.

Wrath of Pie

03-30-2021, 06:36 AM

I mean, yeah they should ban Delver. It has been said again and again that blue should not get the best aggressive creature on top of the best cantrip package and free countermagic. Though I guess Abundant Harvest/Once Upon a Time are WotC's dinky attempts to develop one for green, just like Veil of Summer.
Banning Delver just means that blue takes the best aggressive creatures from other colors, so you are really treating the symptom rather than the potential problem.

(The issue with treating the problem is that it would take at least five or so bans, and then Legacy would be drastically different, but let's leave that conversation for elsewhere.)

chunderbucket

03-30-2021, 07:07 AM

I'm fine with blue having access to the best card selection to some extent, as long as it still has to splash to get aggressive. That's what the color pie is about. Banning Delver would slow down blue's clock, make it vulnerable to wasteland as it has to fetch duals to find threats, and generally make the whole tempo deck less of that goodstuff monstrosity people always default to "because it's 50/50 against the field". It would have actual weaknesses, the decks it'd be weak to would in turn fold to other decks, and there wouldn't be a default choice as the meta would ebb and flow according to whatever was dominant previously. That's what metagaming is about.

Yes, I know it wouldn't solve the problem in its entirety but banning that card would at least wipe the format from that blatant middle finger to the color pie and people could at least pretend there still is some point in not playing blue.

Mr. Safety

03-30-2021, 08:47 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/witherbloomapprentice.jpg

This card is probably going to fit into a bunch of decks, not just combos. Casting this with flusterstorm back-up is going to feel dirty. Even casting a value grapeshot after a cantrip or something (so storm = 2) could put you up ahead. We should watch Magecraft cards because they could synergize well with existing Storm cards, even the ones that don't damage the opponent.

I could definitely see this as a GSZ target for a way to close games fast. It needs some sort of support where you play several spells in one turn, but this is legacy, we have Dark Ritual and shit to do that. I could see this as being pretty good in BGx Nic Fit, especially considering Cabal Therapy is already an easily doubled spell in that deck. Village Rites, Cabal Therapy, and big mana from Veteran Explorer/Phyrexian Tower could entice NicFit to be lower to the ground and having an emphasis on playing multiple spells a turn rather than playing the biggest green-based threats. Considering this is a 2-mana creature it could also potentially be fast enough to get Nic Fit players above 20 life, which doesn't solve the Depths or Storm matchups but it certainly doesn't hurt. Forget even playing something like Grapeshot in red, we already have Tendrils in black and the mana (usually) to get there.

chunderbucket

03-30-2021, 11:54 AM

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/wandering-archaic/

I think that's pretty cool, it basically spell-pierces all countermagic on top of the random value it can make off attempts to remove it and hindering cantrips. 5 colorless isn't that steep a cost when you have sol-lands. Not sure how you can abuse the sorcery side though.

Barook

03-30-2021, 12:21 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/multiplechoicep.jpg

Interesting design. Playable in blue Stompy decks?

Cire

03-30-2021, 01:43 PM

Codie, Vociferous Codex 3
Legendary Artifact
You can't cast permanent spells.
4, T: Add WUBRG. When you cast your next spell this turn, exile cards from the top of your library until you exile an instant or sorcery card with lesser mana value. Until end of turn, you may cast that card without paying its mana cost. Put each other card exiled this way on the bottom of your library in a random order.

That's a lot of fun!

Make Your Mark (R/W)
Instant
Target creature gets +1/+0 until end of turn. When that creature dies this turn, create a 3/2 red and white Spirit creature token.

Combined with any 1 CMC sac creature that feels like a lot of decent value?

Revel in Silence WW
Instant
Your opponents can't cast spells or activate planeswalkers' loyalty abilities this turn.
Exile Revel in Silence.

Another Silence for Scepter Chant if it wants it.

Baleful Domain 3B
Instant (R)
You may pay 1B instead of paying this spell's mana cost.
If 1B was paid to cast this spell, an opponent draws a card.
Exile target creature or planeswalker.

2 mana instant creature PW hate seems OK

W
Creature
Magecraft - +2/+2 until end of turn.

the 1 mana win-con with Chain of Smog?

HdH_Cthulhu

03-30-2021, 01:53 PM

W
Creature
Magecraft - +2/+2 until end of turn.

the 1 mana win-con with Chain of Smog?

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/cleverlumimancer.jpg

Its like 2x prowess that also triggers on copies!

Cire

03-30-2021, 02:04 PM

Something about Codie's quasi-cascade is that it works with 1 CMC spells. So if you untap with it, generate WUBRG, use U to cast a cantrip, you can auto-search for your visions and cast to draw 3 cards. You still have 4 mana and just drew 4. Then if you can untap codie and tap again, its ability should apply again? Anyway to use this to work towards an untap into a win?

Barook

03-30-2021, 02:28 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/cleverlumimancer.jpg

Its like 2x prowess that also triggers on copies!
Aside from the obvious combo with Chain of Smog, it seems pretty strong in anything spell-based (Xerox; Burn with a white splash?). There's also green free pump spells + Berserk.

Cire

03-30-2021, 02:41 PM

My best attempt to get an "untap with codie win"

Turn 1 - Sol Land+Accel+Codie
Turn 2 - Land -> Tap Codie (WUBRG) -> Cantrip (WBRG, draw 1, storm 1) -> Visions (draw 4, storm 2) -> Untap spell (using either W or G, BR(G/W), draw 4, storm 3) -> Accel Spell or exile a spirit Guide (BR(G/W)X, draw 4, storm 4) -> Retap Codie (WUBRG) -> Repeat until you run out of Visions -> Last untap + Accel you should have +10 Storm -> Manamorphose into BB outstanding mana and then tendrils FTW?

So you can have this very stupid pile :tongue:

8 SOL Land
6 Lands

4 Dark Ritual
3 Rite of Flame

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Burst of Energy
4 Emerald Charm
3 Ponder
3 Serum Visions
2 Manamorphose
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Dream's Grip

4 Codie
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

rufus

03-30-2021, 05:12 PM

Barook

03-30-2021, 07:26 PM

What might push Lumimancer actually over the edge might be Flusterstorm. The sheer amount of power it can add to it for a single U is absurd. Unless it's summoning sick, it should be killed on the opponent's turn since you can't risk a counter war when it can attack - or things can get ugly really quickly. Basic example:

OP: Removal spell
You: Counter (1 trigger)
OP: Counter
You: Flusterstorm (4 triggers)

That's already a casual +10 power in a very basic counter war. A second Flusterstorm from you would make it +20 power total.

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Magecraft is going to be the worst thing they've done mechanic-wise since the Delve spell era. What the fuck were they thinking when they included copying spells?

Ronald Deuce

03-30-2021, 07:41 PM

What the hell's a "lumimancer?" Even if it were ok to keep mashing up Latin and Greek words to form ridiculous portmanteaux, wouldn't it be "luminimancer"?

EDIT: I guess they have to get ready for the Warhammer IP somehow. This isn't what I had in mind.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-30-2021, 08:05 PM

HdH_Cthulhu

03-31-2021, 06:07 AM

rufus

03-31-2021, 07:27 AM

Another recently spoiled card, Conspiracy Theorist, 1R, 2/2 creature with "... When you discard 1 or more nonland cards, you may exile one of those cards from your graveyard. If you do, you may cast it until the end of this turn. ..."

Lots of potential synergies for that: Gamble, LED, Hollow One, Faithless Looting, Artificer's Intuition, riddlesmith, and Jeskai Ascendancy come to mind, but there's lots of stuff that loots or uses discard as a cost.

Mr. Safety

03-31-2021, 07:36 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/multiplechoicep.jpg

Interesting design. Playable in blue Stompy decks?

Playable in any blue deck that plays 20+ lands, the value on this card is insane. Only needing a single blue mana in it's cost means it could easily see play in something with as simple as Noble Hierarch included, or doing it on turn 7-8 in the same zone you would normally want to play Entreat the Angels.

I'm trying really hard to avoid saying, grr, the obvious uggghh, I can't do it...ok I have to!

IT ALSO PITCHES TO FORCE OF WILL!

Whew, that was rough...

EDIT: I like it for mono-blue Dreadstill, a deck that naturally wants to play more lands due to Standstill and it rewards having 5 lands in play.

morgan_coke

03-31-2021, 08:35 AM

Cire

03-31-2021, 08:58 AM

Dragon's Approach
2R
Sorcery
Common
Deal 3 damage to each opponent.

You may exile Dragon's Approach and four other cards named DA from your graveyard. If you do, search your library for a dragon and put it into play. Your deck may contain any number of cards named DA.

Holy crud!!! Finally a combo card I can get behind. Likely degenerate as fuck given the tutoring and zero mana requirements, but still, COOL CARD.

The text is

Dragon's Approach 2R
Sorcery (C)
Dragon's Approach deals 3 damage to each opponent. You may exile Dragon's Approach and four other cards named Dragon's Approach from your graveyard. If you do, search your library for a Dragon creature card, put it onto the battlefield and then shuffle.
A deck can have any number of cards named Dragon's Approach.

So you still have to cast Dragon's Approach, you can't just exile it from your graveyard (and you'll need 5 copied at least for it to work)

morgan_coke

03-31-2021, 09:28 AM

The text is

Dragon's Approach 2R
Sorcery (C)
Dragon's Approach deals 3 damage to each opponent. You may exile Dragon's Approach and four other cards named Dragon's Approach from your graveyard. If you do, search your library for a Dragon creature card, put it onto the battlefield and then shuffle.
A deck can have any number of cards named Dragon's Approach.

So you still have to cast Dragon's Approach, you can't just exile it from your graveyard (and you'll need 5 copied at least for it to work)

Are you sure you have to cast it? Those don't look like dependent actions to me, but I'm really far from a rules guru so I could be completely wrong.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-31-2021, 09:29 AM

Are you sure you have to cast it? Those don't look like dependent actions to me, but I'm really far from a rules guru so I could be completely wrong.

It's a sorcery. To do anything it has to resolve.
If it was an activated ability there would be a cost and a colon.

rufus

03-31-2021, 09:34 AM

The text is

Dragon's Approach 2R
Sorcery (C)
Dragon's Approach deals 3 damage to each opponent. You may exile Dragon's Approach and four other cards named Dragon's Approach from your graveyard. If you do, search your library for a Dragon creature card, put it onto the battlefield and then shuffle.
A deck can have any number of cards named Dragon's Approach.

So you still have to cast Dragon's Approach, you can't just exile it from your graveyard (and you'll need 5 copied at least for it to work)

It's still feasible to get four of those into the graveyard quickly, but is there a dragon that's worth the effort?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-31-2021, 09:41 AM

Is this the best Thrumming Stone Combo?

Barook

03-31-2021, 10:05 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/ecologicalappreciation.jpg

Are there any redundant A+B combo pieces which could be made use off?

Cire

03-31-2021, 10:13 AM

It's just gift ungivens for creatures < X - even for the lowest value of 1, gifts is better (unless there is a 0 mana combo which I doubt)

Barook

03-31-2021, 10:20 AM

https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/1377225345145958400

Pretty good combo with the new Conspiracy Theorist. Birgi already saw play in a few red Stompy lists. A repeatable draw 3 for 0 mana is pretty strong.

rufus

03-31-2021, 10:43 AM

It's just gift ungivens for creatures < X - even for the lowest value of 1, gifts is better (unless there is a 0 mana combo which I doubt)

It puts the creatures on the battlefield. So it's more efficient as X gets bigger. For some kinds of creatures, it can also matter that they come into play simultaneously.

Llanowar Elves, Fyndhorn Elves, Arbor Elf, Elvish Mystic (probably not that exciting)

Boreal Druid, Heritage Druid, Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote?

Coiling Oracle, Elvish Visionary, Multani's Acolyte, Silhana Wayfinder?

There are cute piles with allies.

A fundamental problem is that it's putting a bunch of mana into a single spell that can be countered.

Barook

03-31-2021, 12:31 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/leoninlightscribep.jpg

Another white wincon for Chain of Smog.

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/strixhavenstadium.jpg

A rather interesting mana rock. How do you reach 10 counters fast, though? Proliferate? Any other tricks?

03-31-2021, 12:50 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/strixhavenstadium.jpg

A rather interesting mana rock. How do you reach 10 counters fast, though? Proliferate? Any other tricks?

The first that comes to mind:
https://i.imgur.com/y7XSUdv.png

Keep in mind though, that you still need to have a creature deal combat damage, since it's all one trigger (I'm pretty sure).

And of course Gilder Bairn as well, but the same thing applies.

Barook

03-31-2021, 02:43 PM

The first that comes to mind:
https://i.imgur.com/y7XSUdv.png

Keep in mind though, that you still need to have a creature deal combat damage, since it's all one trigger (I'm pretty sure).

And of course Gilder Bairn as well, but the same thing applies.
That's what gatherer spit out for me as well. But then I remembered something far better:

Winding Constrictor is on curve and significantly cuts down the numbers of counters you need before you can win.

chunderbucket

03-31-2021, 06:27 PM

A fundamental problem is that it's putting a bunch of mana into a single spell that can be countered.

Is that a problem in a deck that presumably plays Allosaurus Rider?

Speaking of which:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/research-body/

"Create a 0/0 Blue and Green Fractal creature token. Put X +1/+1 counters on it where X is the number of cards in your library."

Is there a UB janky ramp deck running Allosaurus Rider that could abuse this? To my knowledge this is the first card unconditionally putting in this much power as such a low CMC.

PirateKing

03-31-2021, 06:32 PM

To my knowledge this is the first card unconditionally putting in this much power as such a low CMC.

I mean Depths puts in 20 power for CMC zero, so that's a difficult floor to challenge. Sure this could put in more power, but so far there's no incentive for making your opponent doubleplus dead.

Barook

03-31-2021, 07:03 PM

Is that a problem in a deck that presumably plays Allosaurus Rider?

Speaking of which:

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/research-body/

"Create a 0/0 Blue and Green Fractal creature token. Put X +1/+1 counters on it where X is the number of cards in your library."

Is there a UB janky ramp deck running Allosaurus Rider that could abuse this? To my knowledge this is the first card unconditionally putting in this much power as such a low CMC.
You obviously run it in a Battle of Wits deck to assert dominance.

morgan_coke

03-31-2021, 10:37 PM

You obviously run it in a Battle of Wits deck to assert dominance.

As the rock learned with the monkeys, asserting dominance is key.

Barook

04-01-2021, 06:52 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/silverquillsilencer.jpg

"Silverquill Silencer" WB
Creature - Human Cleric
As Silverquill Silencer enters the battlefield, choose a nonland card name.
Whenever an opponent casts a spell with the chosen name, that opponent loses 3 life and you draw a card.
3/2
It's no Meddling Mage, but I wonder if there's any application for this. It's also a Cleric - if that's relevant. 3 power is also nice.

chunderbucket

04-01-2021, 07:38 AM

I mean Depths puts in 20 power for CMC zero, so that's a difficult floor to challenge. Sure this could put in more power, but so far there's no incentive for making your opponent doubleplus dead.

It's about sending a message

Reeplcheep

04-01-2021, 07:57 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/silverquillsilencer.jpg

It's no Meddling Mage, but I wonder if there's any application for this. It's also a Cleric - if that's relevant. 3 power is also nice.

Without meddling mage humans could consider going straight WB and then get to play real non creature spells (plow/rip/silent clearing x4, thoughtseize, deafening silence, actual basics, etc).

Meddling mage and hierarch are the main reasons the deck is 5c.

rufus

04-01-2021, 09:16 AM

...

It's no Meddling Mage, but I wonder if there's any application for this. It's also a Cleric - if that's relevant. 3 power is also nice.

That seems like it has 'choice card' syndrome. Are you playing this in the hope that the ability speeds up the clock, or is it suppose to hamper the opponent? I think you want something broad like Eidolon of the Great Revel to speed up the clock, or a hard stop like Meddling Mage or Kitesail Freebooter if you're trying to stop big plays.

Barook

04-01-2021, 10:02 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/talentexam.jpg

"Talent Exam" 1U
Instant
Counter target instant or sorcery spell. Search that player's graveyard, hand, and library for any cards with the same name as the countered card and exile them. That player draws a card for each card remove from their hand.

Unlike Surgical, it costs mana, but it also has AWESOME and isn't card disadvantage.

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/fracture.jpg

Fracture WB
Instant
Destroy target artifact, enchantment, or planeswalker.

Should be good SB material.

chunderbucket

04-01-2021, 10:59 AM

Welp there goes the storm scale I guess

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Show-of-Confidence.png

Barook

04-01-2021, 11:42 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/pilgrimoftheages.jpg

I kinda like this card.

Wilkin

04-01-2021, 01:36 PM

Vanishing Verse. BW. Instant. Exile target mono coloured permanent.

I thought Fracture (BW instant. Destroy artifact, enchantment or Planeswalker) was decent. Verse is really nice. It does miss most artifacts, but you can hit Marit Lage, Dryad Arbor, Sylvan Library, Jace, the Mind Sculptor etc.

Reeplcheep

04-01-2021, 03:16 PM

This is very comparable to abrupt decay. Comparative analysis:

Creatures: big extra hits: marit lage, angler/mandrills/whale, dryad arbor, urza. Misses: uro/Coatl/strix. Both miss gaak or hexproof stuff.

Enchantments: hits: curses/rector targets/shark typhoon/court of grace. Misses: cindervines?? Both miss Klothys.

Artifacts: misses everything except Wishclaw and painter, whereas decay is great.

Planeswalkers: hits Jace. Misses Kaya and Dack. Both miss vraska and karn.

Overall it’s applicable to many more targets than decay if uncounterability is not an issue.

Also the biggest misses (uro/chalice) are covered really well by Kaya. Esper is back on the menu!

Barook

04-01-2021, 10:22 PM

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/milacraftycompanion.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/lukkawaywardbonder.jpg

So white has access to a Leovold-style card draw engine now, although slightly weaker since it doesn't count for you.

04-02-2021, 09:40 AM

https://i.imgur.com/pNuLgMJ.jpg

T: Search your library for a card, put it in your graveyard, then shuffle. If it was an instant or sorcery card, put a +1/+1 counter on Oriq Warlock.

An interesting value proposition. Certainly abuseable, but probably too expensive at 4 and too fragile a body. But if you made it stick, something like Punishing Fire could generate a ton of value (besides just some outright combo).

Barook

04-02-2021, 10:19 AM

It can set up Loam + whatever lands you need by itself. Pretty nifty, even if it's expensive. Or reanimation target + Unburial Rites. Takes a while to set up, but is very strong then.

Erdvermampfa

04-02-2021, 02:07 PM

http://www.mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/bayoubandit.jpg

Text says "as additional cost sac a creature or pay 3".

I'm certain this will see some play somewhere eventually. Things that come to mind are Khalni Garden, Veteran Explorer, Doomed Traveler n shit like dat.

Fox

04-02-2021, 02:59 PM

Dies to Goyf. Needed deathtouch or wither.

Ronald Deuce

04-02-2021, 05:18 PM

Apropos of nothing, I kind of hate everything about the flavor of this set. The pandering to a target audience from which I find myself further removed by the hour and the ersatz-Hogwarts pandering make me feel really itchy and like my demographic is, frankly, expendable to Wizzerds.

With that having been said, I haven't been this excited about a set's design and power level in a very long time. I'm seeing a LOT of Commander playables and a number of cards that look like they might make waves in Legacy. What's everybody else think?

Fox

04-02-2021, 06:53 PM

What's everybody else think?
Generally benign sideboard options unlikely to change legacy all that much, and a smh mechanic [magecraft] that is poorly designed. There's the mechanic itself, but then you also have to also note the increasing quality of interaction [the legacy playable SB kill spells] and quantity of that interaction...like I get that in standard they want to have more spells and fewer dudes, but that whole system is dead on arrival to this same set's kill suite.

On the legacy side, we note the general slide towards 5c goodstuff; except this time it's coming on 2c cards that do everything [no longer needing to use so many colors to check so many boxes]. It's a design philosophy that undermines banning DRS and Astrolabe, as the end goal isn't to eventually ban Fetches with less-lopsided 2c disparities.

Wrath of Pie

04-02-2021, 11:45 PM

If magecraft is poorly designed, what does that say about storm?

Ronald Deuce

04-03-2021, 01:16 AM

If magecraft is poorly designed, what does that say about storm?

That's a valid question, but there's a big difference between something that says, "Do nine things then pay four mana for this other thing to win the game" and something that says, "Do this thing, then pay two mana and win the game." In comparison, Chalice of the Void regularly reads, "Play a land, then play this thing and do whatever you want because you win the game unless your opponent concedes, in which case you win the game." For some reason, I'm the only person who seems to have a problem with that.

The storm mechanic is excellent, and I won't argue with that, but it's not the mechanic that's the problem with Magecraft: It's that there's already a two-mana card that says, "Win if you have something with Magecraft," and they're dropping 2-cmc Magecraft cards into an environment that has that.

EDIT: I'm actually excited to see what people do with Chain of Smog. It's unfair for me to complain about easy combos when Dark Ritual is a legal card.

HdH_Cthulhu

04-03-2021, 03:15 AM

Its another payoff for cheap and free spells. Imagine gitaxian probe or treasure cruise is legal.

But that stuff is banned so yeah it just might be fine. But I would still call the mechanic somewhat "problematic"

Prowess is just about combat stats and doesnt trigger on copies - and prowess is still one of the stronger mechanics out there...

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-03-2021, 07:16 AM

If magecraft is poorly designed, what does that say about storm?

It's called the "storm scale" it was purely designed too

Zoid

04-03-2021, 09:48 AM

I'll admit, this is the first card that made me snicker for a long time.

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/unwillingingredient.jpg

http://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/harnessinfinityp.jpg

Seems to expensive to be abusable, but who knows.

---

Elimination Ritual
2BG
Sorcery
Destroy each nonland permanent with a mana value of 2 or less. Add G or B for each permanent destroyed this way.

---

This on the other hand seems like pretty good value.

Wrath of Pie

04-03-2021, 10:09 AM

Its another payoff for cheap and free spells. Imagine gitaxian probe or treasure cruise is legal.
It's entirely possible that the cheap and free spells are the problem, and that storm/magecraft are really the symptom of that problem. (Prowess really fits as well.)

Of course, Legacy is a format for mistakes, so it seems to me that the magecraft cards fit right in.

Fox

04-03-2021, 11:17 AM

It's entirely possible that the cheap and free spells are the problem, and that storm/magecraft are really the symptom of that problem. (Prowess really fits as well.)

Of course, Legacy is a format for mistakes, so it seems to me that the magecraft cards fit right in.

At this point wotc should understand that illegitimate game objects (tokens, copies, ETBs worth a card of value) all serve to slowly erode the gameplay experience [most resulting in reduced diversity] of every format.

The magecraft mechanic [ripping the braindead value away from the same card] shows that they generally understand the problem...but they haven't quite made the leap to realize that magecraft should not count copies because copies and tokens are different aspects of the same problem.

It would be nice if they woke up a little sooner and stuck with cards as the currency in a card game, and that summoning sickness creates interactive play patterns whereas immediate gratification creates blowout non-games.

non-inflammable

04-03-2021, 01:10 PM

Chalice of the Void regularly reads, "Play a land, then play this thing and do whatever you want because you win the game unless your opponent concedes, in which case you win the game." For some reason, I'm the only person who seems to have a problem with that.

I made the chunderbucket pile that was able to chalice first turn every single game. I won many games, but not a single match...
you are the only person who seems to have a problem with that.

morgan_coke

04-03-2021, 01:30 PM

So, they finally tried to make a fixed version of Library of Alexandria. The 2 to activate probably makes it safeish. At least for Standard.

chunderbucket

04-03-2021, 06:06 PM

That's a valid question, but there's a big difference between something that says, "Do nine things then pay four mana for this other thing to win the game" and something that says, "Do this thing, then pay two mana and win the game." In comparison, Chalice of the Void regularly reads, "Play a land, then play this thing and do whatever you want because you win the game unless your opponent concedes, in which case you win the game." For some reason, I'm the only person who seems to have a problem with that.

The storm mechanic is excellent, and I won't argue with that, but it's not the mechanic that's the problem with Magecraft: It's that there's already a two-mana card that says, "Win if you have something with Magecraft," and they're dropping 2-cmc Magecraft cards into an environment that has that.

EDIT: I'm actually excited to see what people do with Chain of Smog. It's unfair for me to complain about easy combos when Dark Ritual is a legal card.

If you don't want to get blown up by Chalice just don't play cantrips lol. Reminds me of Vintage blue players who kept whining because Shops was the obvious best deck but they wouldn't let go of their precious blue stew so they had to play a bunch of pyroblasts and other such do-nothings against Shops which kept reinforcing its dominance. At some point for the meta to ebb and flow part of the playerbase must be willing to be moved. You can lead a horse to water, but...

Ronald Deuce

04-04-2021, 12:48 AM

If you don't want to get blown up by Chalice just don't play cantrips lol. Reminds me of Vintage blue players who kept whining because Shops was the obvious best deck but they wouldn't let go of their precious blue stew so they had to play a bunch of pyroblasts and other such do-nothings against Shops which kept reinforcing its dominance. At some point for the meta to ebb and flow part of the playerbase must be willing to be moved. You can lead a horse to water, but...

This isn't the first time you've made this argument. It was stupid then, and nothing's changed.

Secretly.A.Bee

04-04-2021, 01:02 AM

Seems solid to me. What makes you think it stupid, besides that it doesn't agree with your perspective? Seriously, I'd like to know. Calling something stupid with no other dialogue is pretty useless.

Chalice + FoW is something I'm growing more and more interested in, and it's because of a similar viewpoint of noninflammable and chunderbucket.

Ronald Deuce

04-04-2021, 01:28 AM

Seems solid to me. What makes you think it stupid, besides that it doesn't agree with your perspective? Seriously, I'd like to know. Calling something stupid with no other dialogue is pretty useless.

So is telling people to play Impulse instead of Ponder. So is claiming that Burn is fine against Chalice. So is saying that shutting out half the nonland cards in your opponent's deck on the first turn for two mana is fine. So is saying you're "policing the format" when you get double mana from half the lands in your deck and curve into a turn-2 Thoughtseize on a 4/4. So is saying that a deck that lives or dies by virtue of a single quad in the deck makes the deck competitive, then complaining when it isn't. Or, for that matter, saying that if you meme harder, you'll beat that deck and have a good tournament result in spite of the fact that you'll lose to everyone else. I've explained myself numerous times in numerous places, including (especially?) on this forum.

Chalice + FoW is something I'm growing more and more interested in, and it's because of a similar viewpoint of noninflammable and chunderbucket.

Yes. Good for you and them. You're not contradicting anything I've said about how Chalice is too good or about how changing the rules because reasons has crapped on decks that don't play the cards you mentioned.

4x Chalice
4x Mox Diamond
4x Saprazzan Skerry
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
Xx Island

4x Sphinx of Foresight
4x TNN
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Force of Will
4x Force of Negation
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Daze
4x Impulse. Because people said it's good.
Xx Jace, or something.

There's your start.

Secretly.A.Bee

04-04-2021, 02:25 AM

So is telling people to play Impulse instead of Ponder. So is claiming that Burn is fine against Chalice. So is saying that shutting out half the nonland cards in your opponent's deck on the first turn for two mana is fine. So is saying you're "policing the format" when you get double mana from half the lands in your deck and curve into a turn-2 Thoughtseize on a 4/4. So is saying that a deck that lives or dies by virtue of a single quad in the deck makes the deck competitive, then complaining when it isn't. Or, for that matter, saying that if you meme harder, you'll beat that deck and have a good tournament result in spite of the fact that you'll lose to everyone else. I've explained myself numerous times in numerous places, including (especially?) on this forum.

Yes. Good for you and them. You're not contradicting anything I've said about how Chalice is too good or about how changing the rules because reasons has crapped on decks that don't play the cards you mentioned.

4x Chalice
4x Mox Diamond
4x Saprazzan Skerry
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
Xx Island

4x Sphinx of Foresight
4x TNN
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Force of Will
4x Force of Negation
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Daze
4x Impulse. Because people said it's good.
Xx Jace, or something.

There's your start.

Thanks, your incredibly condescending post is noted and immediately ignored because, come on, man. No one argued for Impulse, there are better choices. Several, in fact. Cloud of Faeries? 2001 is calling and they want their oldass tech back. You are, I swear, a walking, talking fallacy of deck theory. Maybe Diamond, except that with forces (force of will - no one is playing 4 FoN, another condescension) that's not really a need of the deck. 4 true-name? How do you expect anyone to take you serious? Like ever? Go back to the Oops all spells thread where your "logic" can actually hold up. I asked for reasoning and you gave me a response dripping with sarcasm. Fucking weak, dude.

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Wrath of Pie

04-04-2021, 08:36 AM

Now I want someone to update Invincible Counter-Troll with Chalices.

rufus

04-04-2021, 09:03 AM

Now that we have a full spoiler, are any of the lessons good enough to be interesting, or are there any particularly compelling learn/lesson pairings?

Looking through the spoiler it seems like there's a good number of cards with potential.

Clever Lumimancer - combos with Chain of Smog
Devastating Mastery - Sweeps the board pretty hard for 2WW, and even harder for 2WWWW
Eager First Year - A bad Clever Lumimancer/Leonin Lightscribe, but it still combos with Chain of Smog.
Leonin Lightscribe - More smog
Mavinda, Students' Advovate - The ability is stupid powerful in principle, and the cost is pretty low, but I don't think there's an existing legacy deck for it.
Show of confidence - Storm-type effects are potent
Archmage Emeritus - Combos with Chain of Smog
Plumb the Forbidden - Storm-like draw effect.
Sedgemoor Witch - Combos with Chain of Smog
Conspiracy Theorist - Lots of obvious value potential.
Storm-Kiln Artist - combos with chain of smog
Fracture - 2cc utility removal
Quandrix Apprentice - Potential for value and deck stacking with Chain of Smog
Rip Apart - 2cc utility removal
Witherbloom Apprentice - Combos with Chain of Smog
The Biblioplex - Value land that enters untapped
Hall of Oracles - Enters untapped and helps with tempo/reach on the back end.

Wrath of Pie

04-04-2021, 09:31 AM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 09:42 AM

Thanks, your incredibly condescending post is noted and immediately ignored because, come on, man. No one argued for Impulse, there are better choices. Several, in fact. Cloud of Faeries?

Chunderbucket has made this argument before using impulse.
It's petty forums drama.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 09:45 AM

I think a dedicated magecraft build is really just a reskin of Modern Prowess, and the best dedicated build is probably going to be WR featuring Lava Dart and no Chain of Smog (because Bolts/Mutagenic Growth are better).

The Magecraft cards go nuts with storm cards.
E:
T1 super prowess,
T2 manamorphosr, mutagenic growth, gutshot, grapeshot is 2+(1+2)+(2+2)+3(2+1) 18 damage. Find yourself a bolt and gg.

Fox

04-04-2021, 09:54 AM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 09:57 AM

Until opponent plays a 1cmc removal and you're left with cards that are fairly underpowered by themselves.

Did you just let me get to 20 by allowing me to cast a counter?

Fox

04-04-2021, 10:41 AM

Did you just let me get to 20 by allowing me to cast a counter?

When people makes decks like these they forget how magic really works when you have to work for an advantage; particularly when you have to push through that advantage. Most players in legacy have been slinging 1-card combo creatures (usually with immediate upside on top of it) for so long that they don't instinctively know how sequences like these end.

Please explain why this magecraft stuff is going to ensure it's relevance [outside of the goldfishing tank] and win more than Infect/Depths/Dreadstill/SnT/Reanimator/Painter, or any other deck generally investing >1 card per dude through summoning sickness. What is your protection/interaction suite, and how are you casting it on-demand...or is this one of those "look at my token generator YP and this Stifle I can't fire off to make a token" types of deckbuilding theory?

chunderbucket

04-04-2021, 10:48 AM

Chunderbucket has made this argument before using impulse.
It's petty forums drama.

lol what? It's pretty well known that blue players in Vintage, instead of making the obvious rational decision (switching to the obvious best deck, Shops) stuck with their blue stew and cantrip cartel + pyroblasts, which sucks against Shop, but is good against other irrational blue players who made up a majority of the field. So instead of the meta flowing (everyone switches to shop, then people switch to a deck that's good against shops, then people switch to a blue deck that's good against that deck, and so on), people just kept whining while Shops players kept picking up trophies.

The only difference in Legacy is that blue decks don't lose against Chalice, especially not now that they have access to 12 pieces of countermagic, they just get blown up from time to time. So it's not even a tragic case of bad equilibrium due to misaligned incentives but just capricious tantruming.

Barook

04-04-2021, 10:57 AM

The Magecraft cards go nuts with storm cards.
E:
T1 super prowess,
T2 manamorphosr, mutagenic growth, gutshot, grapeshot is 2+(1+2)+(2+2)+3(2+1) 18 damage. Find yourself a bolt and gg.
Or you can just run Berserk/Assault Strobe to make things easier. Invigorate also works as a free boost.

Between the two cheap white Magecraft card and the new Not-Dryad in green, G/W/x has some legs regarding the Infect-style combos, although that might not be the best idea without countermagic. If you splash blue for Flusterstorm, it can also get silly really fast. Berserk (or Probe) + any free spell to trigger Magecraft + Flusterstorm is already 20 trampling damage with Lumimancer as early as T2. You can even Daze your doubler and then counter the Daze with your Flusterstorm copies. Rules question: You can use the Flusterstorm copies to delete the original Flusterstorm that targeted one of your spells, right?

Outside of Chain of Smog shenanigans, the UG Apprentice is probably the best in a vacuum. The sheer amount of CA it can generate (especially with library manipulation like Brainstorm or, if you want to be fancy, Scroll Rack) is downright silly. Especially in a deck with Loam and Raven's Crime, it might be able to wreck havoc - and it's still compatible with the BG one as those two shells aren't mutually exclusive. I still think that the BUG shell that runs both with GSZ and Uro as back-up plan to play grindy midrange games might turn out to be the best compared to aggressive one-trick ponies.

Fox

04-04-2021, 11:23 AM

Fluster makes a trigger that doesn't target. When trigger resolves OG Fluster is a valid target.

Ronald Deuce

04-04-2021, 01:23 PM

Thanks, your incredibly condescending post is noted and immediately ignored because, come on, man. No one argued for Impulse, there are better choices. Several, in fact. Cloud of Faeries? 2001 is calling and they want their oldass tech back.

First of all, Impulse has, indeed, been suggested over Ponder/Preordain.

Secondly, Cloud of Faeries accelerates mana.

Barook

04-04-2021, 01:47 PM

Fluster makes a trigger that doesn't target. When trigger resolves OG Fluster is a valid target.
That's what I've thought.

I wonder how feasible an Infect-style mentioned above would be with 4x Chain of Smog included for random blowouts. It would probably be 4-colored, but between Manamorphose and Lotus Petal (which you should run anyway for accel and mana fixing) in combination with fetchlands should be enough black for Chain and Witherbloom Apprentice. WU would also give access to T3feri which is probably the strongest protection card you can have before you go off. Deck space would probably be an issue, though.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 02:38 PM

lol what?

Is this NOT something you've brought up before? Playing a card like impulse to not lose to chalice?

Secretly.A.Bee

04-04-2021, 02:58 PM

First of all, Impulse has, indeed, been suggested over Ponder/Preordain.

Secondly, Cloud of Faeries accelerates mana.It was suggested quite a while ago and not here in this thread specifically. Further, there's better 2-cmc filtering and draw, lessons may be worth considering as are cards that actually generate card advantage. CoF does accelerate mana if the conditionsare correct, but there are likely better choices for that slot and to that end especially when the point of "likely not necessary to accelerate into a chalice on turn 1 due to playing Forces." Further, the idea of playing Daze in this deck where you would need mox + sol land to accel into the chalice creates a situation where you can't actually cast Daze on your opponent's turn after and makes for a really awkward proposition.

But hey, you are technically correct on the last two points you made so I guess you just totally outsmarted everyone in this theorycrafting session.

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Wrath of Pie

04-04-2021, 04:01 PM

The Magecraft cards go nuts with storm cards.
E:
T1 super prowess,
T2 manamorphosr, mutagenic growth, gutshot, grapeshot is 2+(1+2)+(2+2)+3(2+1) 18 damage. Find yourself a bolt and gg.
Why play conditional cards like Manamorphose, Gut Shot (yes it counts here) and Grapeshot when you can just play more burn spells that have applications outside of the combo kill?

Where the combo kill approach is worth it is probably in something like Delver, because you don't have to dedicate 8 slots to it (Chain of Smog is not that great of a standalone card) and the backup plan of Delver is obviously good enough.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 04:36 PM

Why play conditional cards like Manamorphose, Gut Shot (yes it counts here) and Grapeshot when you can just play more burn spells that have applications outside of the combo kill?

Where the combo kill approach is worth it is probably in something like Delver, because you don't have to dedicate 8 slots to it (Chain of Smog is not that great of a standalone card) and the backup plan of Delver is obviously good enough.

Because while you can combo for opponent outright you can still just make big dumb creature by cycling these cards for value
You can also do both.

Wrath of Pie

04-04-2021, 04:44 PM

Because while you can combo for opponent outright you can still just make big dumb creature by cycling these cards for value
You can also do both.
Doing both has deckbuilding costs.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 05:12 PM

Doing both has deckbuilding costs.

So people keep saying and yet He Keeps Getting Away With It

chunderbucket

04-04-2021, 06:39 PM

Is this NOT something you've brought up before? Playing a card like impulse to not lose to chalice?

In an ideal meta, yeah, people should have to resort to play impulse so as to avoid losing to Chalice. The idea is that getting greedy with too many CMC1 cards is punished, and playing high CMC cards is also bad, so there's always a trade off and you have to weigh your options, not all cards are universally good, etc. You know, metagaming, deckbuilding, diversity, that sort of thing.

Of course we don't live in an ideal world. The cantrip cartel is universally good regardless of Chalice because it comes with 12 pieces of free countermagic so the matchup isn't actually bad. You don't actually need to play Impulse to win overall, you just have to accept getting blown out from time to time, which is increasingly rare thanks to Wizards' long-standing policy of granting blue the entirety of the color pie. Yet, despite having the best cards and the best deck, you still whine. Unlike Vintage players (who were still annoying but whose predicament was real and a kind of tragedy of the commons), whining about Chalice isn't making any sort of point beyond "I am unhappy that games sometimes don't go the way I would like them to go", so there isn't much to advise beyond the obvious "if you don't want to get blown up by Chalice, why don't you play spells that aren't CMC1". Hence, Impulse. The advice is as intelligent as your complaints are legitimate, make of that what you will.

Btw, congrats on digging up posts from 2018 (!) for the sake of dragging out an argument. What was that supposed to accomplish?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 07:01 PM

yeah, The only word you needed. Had you stopped here you wouldn't have said:

Btw, congrats on digging up posts from 2018 (!) for the sake of dragging out an argument. What was that supposed to accomplish?
And made yourself look illiterate. It wasn't me who brought up your impulse thesis. In fact I called bringing it up petty forums drama, and now here we are.

Fox

04-04-2021, 07:11 PM

And made yourself look illiterate. It wasn't me who brought up your impulse thesis. In fact I called bringing it up petty forums drama, and now here we are.

Controlling time [of old thread posts] ensures you need never look impulsive again.

chunderbucket

04-04-2021, 09:01 PM

The only word you needed. Had you stopped here you wouldn't have said:

And made yourself look illiterate. It wasn't me who brought up your impulse thesis. In fact I called bringing it up petty forums drama, and now here we are.

Ok apart from name calling I still have no idea what your point is or what you're trying to accomplish. Is it about Impulse? About Chalice? About some general statement on what an ideal meta should like? Or you just don't like me very much and would like to make it known? Just state your main thesis clearly, man.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 09:08 PM

Ok apart from name calling I still have no idea what your point is or what you're trying to accomplish. Is it about Impulse? About Chalice? About some general statement on what an ideal meta should like? Or you just don't like me very much and would like to make it known? Just state your main thesis clearly, man.

Thanks, your incredibly condescending post is noted and immediately ignored because, come on, man. No one argued for Impulse, there are better choices. Several, in fact. Cloud of Faeries?

Chunderbucket has made this argument before using impulse.
It's petty forums drama.

chunderbucket

04-04-2021, 09:23 PM

I've explained the rationale behind the impulse thing. One may agree with it, or disagree, but its main thesis clear as day. What I'm asking is, what were you trying to accomplish pointing out that old post of mine without said rationale? What are you trying to prove, explain or otherwise justify? Remember what I said about speaking clearly. In essence, why did you jump in the discussion at all?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 09:27 PM

Secretly.A.Bee

04-04-2021, 09:35 PM

Yeah, well, I asked a legitimate question and got nothing but snark in return; Even his decklist was sarcastic. Idc if chunderbucket did suggest impulse - it was apparently over 2 years ago and on another thread; being butthurt about a card suggestion for that long is absurd.

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chunderbucket

04-04-2021, 10:03 PM

What do you think the post I replied to said?

I know what you said, what I want to know is why you jumped in to begin with and what you were trying to aim exactly. Usually people don't pop up randomly and unprompted unless they have some deeper point to make, otherwise we might just replace them with bots or something. I believe I have made my points about Chalice, the cantrip cartel and my idea of the meta in a rather clear way. You may disagree with it, think I am an idiot for thinking this way, believe my idea of 'fun' or 'diversity' is wrong and misguided, but at least there is something to argue with. I have a position, we exchange opinions and argue and hopefully something productive comes out.

But you don't do that. I have no idea what you think, what you believe, why you post the way you do, what deeper point you're trying to make. Do you even have one? Or are you just copying and pasting prompts off a Markov Chain or GPT-3 or something? You pointed out I talked about impulse in 2018, I explained what I meant, you dismissed it - what did you that for? Do you concur with Ronald Deuce that Chalice is harmful, or do you not? Are you even trying to say something?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-04-2021, 10:23 PM

I know what you said, what I want to know is why you jumped in to begin with and what you were trying to aim exactly. Usually people don't pop up randomly and unprompted unless they have some deeper point to make, otherwise we might just replace them with bots or something. I believe I have made my points about Chalice, the cantrip cartel and my idea of the meta in a rather clear way. You may disagree with it, think I am an idiot for thinking this way, believe my idea of 'fun' or 'diversity' is wrong and misguided, but at least there is something to argue with. I have a position, we exchange opinions and argue and hopefully something productive comes out.

But you don't do that. I have no idea what you think, what you believe, why you post the way you do, what deeper point you're trying to make. Do you even have one? Or are you just copying and pasting prompts off a Markov Chain or GPT-3 or something? You pointed out I talked about impulse in 2018, I explained what I meant, you dismissed it - what did you that for? Do you concur with Ronald Deuce that Chalice is harmful, or do you not? Are you even trying to say something?

Come on. You can do this. I believe in you. What did the post I replied to say.

BirdsOfParadise

04-05-2021, 05:38 AM

Tylert

04-05-2021, 05:41 AM

Guys, this analysis of the impacts of strixhaven on the legacy format is so top notch!

Wrath of Pie

04-05-2021, 09:22 AM

Guys, this analysis of the impacts of strixhaven on the legacy format is so top notch!
Yeah, I didn't know that Impulse was a secret reprint!

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-05-2021, 10:47 AM

Person A: (sarcasm) 4x Impulse because Impulse is good (/sarcasm)
Person B: That’s just sarcasm. Nobody thinks Impulse is good.
Person C: Person D does.
Person D: Let me clarify. I didn’t suggest it because it’s a great Legacy card. I said that if Chalice were actually a big problem, players could resort to it. They don’t. Ergo, Chalice isn’t a big problem.
Person C: you said Impulse again

This is what I’m getting out of the last page or so.
More like
Ronald and Chunderbucket had their chalice slap fight and Ronald brought up the time Chunderbucket brought up impulse.
A Bee said no one was saying impulse.
I provided the context is that Chunderbucket had before
Chunderbucket demands I explain my argument
I try to hold Chunderbuckets hand as they hopefully figure out

04-05-2021, 10:50 AM

OK, I think that is likely enough on the point, there is no real sense in belaboring it since, as far as I can tell, it has nothing to do with Strixhaven at this point.

Let's all move on with our lives, thanks. If there is an issue, PM me, or make a new thread.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-05-2021, 02:31 PM

Isn't there supposed to be a c21 spoiler today?
I want to hold some lore.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-05-2021, 03:19 PM

Isn't there supposed to be a c21 spoiler today?
I want to hold some lore.

The spoilers are out and the lore to be held isn't worth it.

chunderbucket

04-05-2021, 03:24 PM

Isn't there supposed to be a c21 spoiler today?
I want to hold some lore.

The spoilers are out and the lore to be held isn't worth it.

Huh. This explains a lot of things I guess.

morgan_coke

04-05-2021, 04:02 PM

Mr. Safety

04-06-2021, 07:25 AM

So is Nic Fit the big winner from Strixhaven? Gets a 1 mana cantrip in Abundant Harvest, a combo win con in Witherbloom Apprentice, a new midrangey sac outlet in Bayou Groff, and a toolbox in Witherbloom Command.

I hope so...but honestly, almost every set has a 'this might be ok in nic fit' kind of card. This time I think it will be the real deal though, simply because of Witherbloom Apprentice + Chain of Smog. Having a low-to-the-ground combo win is something Nic Fit could really use.

morgan_coke

04-06-2021, 08:42 AM

I hope so...but honestly, almost every set has a 'this might be ok in nic fit' kind of card. This time I think it will be the real deal though, simply because of Witherbloom Apprentice + Chain of Smog. Having a low-to-the-ground combo win is something Nic Fit could really use.

Agreed, but I think Abundant Harvest is just as, if not more important, because with GSZ it basically gives you 8 cantrips. And Bayou Groff gives you a GSZ-able sac outlet for Explorer, which is also huge.

Maybe something like:

4x Abundant Harvest
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chain of Smog
3x Witherbloom Command
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse

4x Veteran Explorer
1x Bayou Groff
2x Witherbloom Apprentice

2x Sylvan Library

7x other nic fit things

22x Lands

That seems like a reasonable starting point, tons of removal and discard and mana and cantrips, all in a BG shell. Like, I mean, usually when people are like "this is great for Nic Fit" it's some midrangey thing that the deck already has six versions of. This set is comboes and another cantrip, both of which are far more important, imho.

Mr. Safety

04-06-2021, 09:12 AM

That looks pretty good! The 7 Nic Fit stuffs that we include will probably include silver bullet cards like Reclamation Sage, Scavenging Ooze, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Eternal Witness. That still leaves 4 slots for some juicy dudes. However (and I don't mean to derail the spoiler thread with too much Nic Fit talk) there is a diminishing return on playing Veteran Explorer without having a massive mana advantage and also utilizing that advantage to go over the top. I think Witherbloom Apprentice will actually result in a new deck build, probably closer to The Rock. You basically have a combo with Apprentice/Chain, which is super compact, and then your dig tools (GSZ, Abundant Harvest, Sylvan Library), then you add your disruption (discard and removal.) By that time, how much room do you really have to include a 'bad' combo like Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy? At that point just playing the right amount of lands and Thoughtseize is probably correct. You could even conceivably do a Hogaak-Depths type of hybrid where you have overlapping synergies. Chain of Smog could be a discard outlet for Vengevine/Bloodghast/Gravecrawler/Hogaak that also doubles up as a combo with Apprentice. Simple tools like Unearth and Reanimate can be included to actually make the combo resilient. Kill my Apprentice? Unearth it, take 2. Last thought: I think Allosaurus Shepherd is probably a much better GSZ target than Veteran Explorer.

TL,DR: It's certainly possible to do Witherbloom stuff with Nic Fit, but there might be a new deck waiting in the tall grass to develop that doesn't need big mana/Veteran Explorer.

EDIT: My mind is racing with the possibility of using Dark Confidant, Allosaurus Shepherd, and Veil of Summer as well...cheap disruption, cantrips, tutors, discard, even the ability to play Abrupt Decay maindeck with bullet-proof mana. Low curve, all business.