Modern Horizons 2 Previews

[Mr. Safety]

So, generally speaking, Urza's Saga is making big waves along with other cards in the Affinity archetype. Is anybody seeing anything else really shaking things up?

[Reeplcheep]

Endurance is seeing quite a bit of play in Bant control or maverick as a delver hate card that also hoses graveyard or combo decks. The list of cards that profitably block insectile abberation (and don’t die to bolt or pyro like strix) below 4 mana is very short.

[Cire]

So, generally speaking, Urza's Saga is making big waves along with other cards in the Affinity archetype. Is anybody seeing anything else really shaking things up?

I see the following:

Affinity - Urza's Saga, Esper Sentinel, Nettlecyst, Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp
Delver - Murktide Regent, Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Dragon's Rage Channeler
Yorion - Sanctifier en-Vec
D&T - Sanctum Prelate
Bant - Endurance, Abundant Harvest
Post - Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
Reanimator - Grief
Storm - Strike It Rich

[rufus]

So, generally speaking, Urza's Saga is making big waves along with other cards in the Affinity archetype. Is anybody seeing anything else really shaking things up?

I'm not sure about "really shaking things up" but there are a lot of cards with heavy potential. For example, Gaea's Will seems like the sort of card that will either do little, or get banned for making some kind of combo deck too strong.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've been testing out a Food Chain Goblin list based on one I saw elsewhere, using Ignoble Hierarch and Anarchomancer, and it's actually really fucking degenerate.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I see the following:

Affinity - Urza's Saga, Esper Sentinel, Nettlecyst, Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp
Delver - Murktide Regent, Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Dragon's Rage Channeler
Yorion - Sanctifier en-Vec
D&T - Sanctum Prelate
Bant - Endurance, Abundant Harvest
Post - Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
Reanimator - Grief
Storm - Strike It Rich

Sanctum Prelate already existed. But they'll definitely be playing Esper Sentinel. Also probably Kaldra Kompleat but I think that's a meta call over Batterskull. It's probably better 60% of the time tho

[Tylert]

Sanctum Prelate already existed. But they'll definitely be playing Esper Sentinel. Also probably Kaldra Kompleat but I think that's a meta call over Batterskull. It's probably better 60% of the time tho

It depends on who you are playing against. If you know your opponent will get rid of stoneforge mystic, then batterskull is better.
I'm surprised that the STP on legs is not played.

[Pittplayer]

It depends on who you are playing against. If you know your opponent will get rid of stoneforge mystic, then batterskull is better.
I'm surprised that the STP on legs is not played.

No way to vial it in, and you cant recoup the card disavantage. I can see why its not played.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No way to vial it in, and you cant recoup the card disavantage. I can see why its not played.

I played against a list running Squadron Hawk to support both Solitude and Force of Virtue, it was pretty sick tbh. Especially when you’re pumping Sentinel which recoups card advantage further.

[Pittplayer]

I played against a list running Squadron Hawk to support both Solitude and Force of Virtue, it was pretty sick tbh. Especially when you’re pumping Sentinel which recoups card advantage further.

Ah. The old running bad cards to support bad cards argument. Idk, I would rather run Thalia, Vial, Stp, Port, Wastes, Flickerwisp, etc. I dont think running Hawks to support Solitude and FoV sounds like anywhere near competitive in legacy. A fun casual deck sure!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ah. The old running bad cards to support bad cards argument. Idk, I would rather run Thalia, Vial, Stp, Port, Wastes, Flickerwisp, etc. I dont think running Hawks to support Solitude and FoV sounds like anywhere near competitive in legacy. A fun casual deck sure!

So is this like. Actually unintentional, or are you being ironic here? You think cards like Port or Thalia or Flickerwisp, fucking Flickerwisp, are just objectively strong, good cards?

Hey do you know what some really bad cards are? Chain of Smog. Protean Hulk. Lion's Eye Diamond. Crop Rotation.

Hell Brainstorm is pretty weak in most decks if you don't have fetchlands. You know what card fucking sucks with a low blue count, is Force of Will.

Like I don't know how to explain to you that the basic premise of deckbuilding is that cards in a deck become stronger or weaker based entirely on the context of how they interact with both the cards the opponent is likely to be playing but also the other cards in your deck. If you just stick LED in Miracles or Thalia in Storm or something they're going to fucking suck. Because the cards aren't in those decks to make those cards good.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Sure, you can put “bad” cards in a good context and “good” cards in a bad context.

The thing about the “bad” cards you listed is that they mostly either enable a cheap, game-winning combo (LED, Protean Hulk, Crop Rotation) or have no deckbuilding cost (Brainstorm).

Force of Virtue looks pretty suspect because its payoff is not that dramatic (except in already favorable board states) and its deckbuilding cost is real. Being skeptical of FoV in Legacy doesn’t betray some kind of deep ignorance about how decks work. It’s more about what seems useful in Legacy.

It’s a fair point, though, that many players would be skeptical of Flickerwisp if they hadn’t seen it in action in DnT. Some cards can be surprising, but you’re not really explaining how FoV is going to surprise people.

I’d also agree with you as far as saying that that Solitude isn’t “bad” and that Squadron Hawk is also not “bad” but really needs the right home and doesn’t have it right now (and maybe won’t ever again). Force of Virtue is just way less flexible than FoW, and Brainstorm and Ponder aren’t white.

[Purple Blood]

So is this like. Actually unintentional, or are you being ironic here? You think cards like Port or Thalia or Flickerwisp, fucking Flickerwisp, are just objectively strong, good cards?

Hey do you know what some really bad cards are? Chain of Smog. Protean Hulk. Lion's Eye Diamond. Crop Rotation.

Hell Brainstorm is pretty weak in most decks if you don't have fetchlands. You know what card fucking sucks with a low blue count, is Force of Will.

Like I don't know how to explain to you that the basic premise of deckbuilding is that cards in a deck become stronger or weaker based entirely on the context of how they interact with both the cards the opponent is likely to be playing but also the other cards in your deck. If you just stick LED in Miracles or Thalia in Storm or something they're going to fucking suck. Because the cards aren't in those decks to make those cards good.

You shut your mouth. Balustrade Spy is objectively good.

[Rob Hack]

I played against a list running Squadron Hawk to support both Solitude and Force of Virtue, it was pretty sick...
...at your kitchen table?

Idk, like I'd rather play something real then be tendrilsed to death on turn2 after making caw-caw for 1W.

[Reeplcheep]

All that matters is the ceiling, the floor, and the expected value of the effect. 7 mana 4/4s are not playable in legacy, but affinity just won a challenge.

The ceiling of hawk as a 2 mana super mulldrifter is insane. 8 mana for 4 1/1s is unplayable.

The floor of a 4 mana lord effect is blank cardboard. The ceiling of a 0 mana pump is good but probably bot that much better then a force of will

Force plow has a high floor but a low ceiling (plow is only 1 mana)

Overall the ceilings are pretty low on these effects so you would need to go very deep on cheap ways to draw white cards to make it consistent enough. Oketras monument, legion angel, legion conquistadors. At that probably not worth it but you can’t do it halfway.

Also you aren’t really gaining anything from legacy cards or meta here so it seems better suited to modern.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

...at your kitchen table?

Idk, like I'd rather play something real then be tendrilsed to death on turn2 after making caw-caw for 1W.

Stoneforge Mystic and Aether Vial and Mom and Recruiter of the Guard and Swords to Plowshares and Flickerwisp do nothing to stop you from being Tendril'd to death turn 2. Are you saying those are bad cards?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Sure, you can put “bad” cards in a good context and “good” cards in a bad context.

The thing about the “bad” cards you listed is that they mostly either enable a cheap, game-winning combo (LED, Protean Hulk, Crop Rotation) or have no deckbuilding cost (Brainstorm).

Force of Virtue looks pretty suspect because its payoff is not that dramatic (except in already favorable board states) and its deckbuilding cost is real. Being skeptical of FoV in Legacy doesn’t betray some kind of deep ignorance about how decks work. It’s more about what seems useful in Legacy.

It’s a fair point, though, that many players would be skeptical of Flickerwisp if they hadn’t seen it in action in DnT. Some cards can be surprising, but you’re not really explaining how FoV is going to surprise people.

I’d also agree with you as far as saying that that Solitude isn’t “bad” and that Squadron Hawk is also not “bad” but really needs the right home and doesn’t have it right now (and maybe won’t ever again). Force of Virtue is just way less flexible than FoW, and Brainstorm and Ponder aren’t white.

The ceiling here is a 0 mana way to make your creatures significantly more burn resilient and make Esper Sentinel impossible to play around, on top of just winning more combats and killing opponents faster. So I'd say that's certainly worth considering. I don't know if it's going to be good enough, because I don't know what's going to be good in this meta at all after MH2, which is a stupidly overpowered set all around. Except I guess UR Delver. But I'm not dismissive of it either.

[FTW]

Sanctum Prelate already existed. But they'll definitely be playing Esper Sentinel. Also probably Kaldra Kompleat but I think that's a meta call over Batterskull. It's probably better 60% of the time tho

ThrabenU's posted some content showing Kaldra. Card is strong, and in different situations than you'd want Batterskull so D&T may just run both. It performed worst vs removal or bounce, blowing it out on tempo, so the deck probably wants 6x Mom to make better use of it.

Force: The ceiling is T1 2/2 Esper Sentinel. 2 mana tax is much harder for opponent to pay, especially on turn 1 and in a deck with Thalia + Waste + Port, so now Esper Sentinel is drawing free cards to compensate for the initial -2 cards. Another ceiling is countering Forked Bolt for 0 mana. The floor is pretty bad, paying 4-mana or 2 cards to make Honor of the Pure on an empty board.

Squawk: The floor of 4 1/1s is bad. The ceiling of 3 2/2s + free card to pitch is pretty good. Also good as a 1/1 Sword carrier + 3 cards in hand to insulate against discard effects or pitch to things.

These are higher variance cards but the ceilings are good when they work. There's a big reward for making Esper Sentinel a 2/2 without losing tempo. Luminarch Aspirant and Honor of the Pure could do it too, but they eat up your turn 2.

There are other ways to compensate for card disadvantage, like Ranger-Captain of Eos or Recruiter of the Guard + blink effects. Both also tutor for Esper Sentinel. A deck that can make 2/2 Esper Sentinels and compensate for the card disadvantage somehow should be able to profit, so it's just a matter of tuning to reduce variance. It may work better in a deck like this or a token deck with more anthems than trying to cram Squawks into D&T.

Edit: The InfamousBearNinja Ninja'd me.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah if anything I think Force of Virtue is more tempting than Solitude, because yeah StP only costs one anyways, two at most if you have Thalia out. And obviously it does other things but just pumping Esper Sentinel at instant speed for no mana in a way that sticks around and helps the team seems really good.

The list I saw was not running Chrome Mox which if anything seems more tempting to me than Solitude unless you're doing blink stuff yourself.

[Barook]

I wonder how good Ignoble Hierarch + Voidwalker is going to be. You could easy go

T1: Hierarch
T2: Voidvalker, 1-mana discard

And then you could either play their best card the next turn or attack with a 4 power shadow creature every turn while hosing their GY. Sounds like a super-strong creature combo from a value perspective, especially since both are good on their own.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

If Voidwalker sticks you almost always go for attacks. Played like 100 matches with Ragavan and Voidwalker.
Honestly both just eat removal so my Confidants can stay alive. I used voids active once and it wasnt relevant.

Ragavan on the other hand steals stuff every other game.

[KobeBryan]

I wonder how good Ignoble Hierarch + Voidwalker is going to be. You could easy go

T1: Hierarch
T2: Voidvalker, 1-mana discard

And then you could either play their best card the next turn or attack with a 4 power shadow creature every turn while hosing their GY. Sounds like a super-strong creature combo from a value perspective, especially since both are good on their own.

Just like all discard spells, the cards become useless towards the mid game when both are just top decking. Voidwalker does not help with this issue. Great on turn 1-3

Nonetheless, there's absolutely no reason to play anything outside of Red and Blue right now.

[FTW]

Nonetheless, there's absolutely no reason to play anything outside of Red and Blue right now.

The best reason to be outside of red and blue is probably mono-Choke stompy with SB Tsunami.

Edit: Maindeck Carpet of Flowers and Endurance

[KobeBryan]

The best reason to be outside of red and blue is probably mono-Choke stompy with SB Tsunami.

Edit: Maindeck Carpet of Flowers and Endurance

And how good are those decks outside of those matchups.

[FTW]

And how good are those decks outside of those matchups.

Comes down to how many people buy into "there's absolutely no reason to play anything outside of Red and Blue right now".

Brainstorm was already >50% of decks. If the format skews even more towards blue (Sunday Challenge was 25% UR), at some point Choke.dec has text. It's not like Chalice @ 1, Karn and Urza's Saga are bad cards in other matchups.

[Rob Hack]

Stoneforge Mystic and Aether Vial and Mom and Recruiter of the Guard and Swords to Plowshares and Flickerwisp do nothing to stop you from being Tendril'd to death turn 2. Are you saying those are bad cards?

Excuse me, but you seem to be missing the fact that we're talking about a 1W creatures. I'd rather have Thalia against TES/ANT than playing a game of Mesa Pegasus, go.
Also, I never saw your name on this boards yet you have thousands of posts; is that number manipulated somehow and I'm falling for some kind of a moderators' meme?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Excuse me, but you seem to be missing the fact that we're talking about a 1W creatures. I'd rather have Thalia against TES/ANT than playing a game of Mesa Pegasus, go.
Also, I never saw your name on this boards yet you have thousands of posts; is that number manipulated somehow and I'm falling for some kind of a moderators' meme?

He was banned for a while. But he's legit. Put together some very cool brews back in the day.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Excuse me, but you seem to be missing the fact that we're talking about a 1W creatures. I'd rather have Thalia against TES/ANT than playing a game of Mesa Pegasus, go.
Also, I never saw your name on this boards yet you have thousands of posts; is that number manipulated somehow and I'm falling for some kind of a moderators' meme?

I legit can't tell if my chain is being yanked right now

Also you can run multiple two drops

Should, some might even say

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

He was banned for a while. But he's legit. Put together some very cool brews back in the day.

ty

Although "Rob Hack" with only two posts ever both of which serve to grief me makes me think someone is just setting this up for shits and giggles tbh

Also the fact that SFM is a 1W creature but honestly I was too flat-footed to point that out in my first reply post

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

ty

Although "Rob Hack" with only two posts ever both of which serve to grief me makes me think someone is just setting this up for shits and giggles tbh

Also the fact that SFM is a 1W creature but honestly I was too flat-footed to point that out in my first reply post

Joined 2020 and you're all it took to get them to end their year long vow of silence

[Ronald Deuce]

You shut your mouth. Balustrade Spy is objectively good.

Truly a glorious assertion!

[Clark Kant]

I legit can't tell if my chain is being yanked right now

Also you can run multiple two drops

Should, some might even say

Lol. Everyone here recognizes you IBA. You're infamous, just as you had always hoped.

[Rob Hack]

I joined year ago in anticipation of an unbanning of banned poster. I have few more multinicks in case I'd need to comment on another unbanned lover of 1W Banding Flying birds.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I joined year ago in anticipation of an unbanning of banned poster. I have few more multinicks in case I'd need to comment on another unbanned lover of 1W Banding Flying birds.

This is the most boring spy novel

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Lol. Everyone here recognizes you IBA. You're infamous, just as you had always hoped.

I'mma be honest, you clearly have some beef with me but I don't really remember who you are

[Barook]

Apparently you can stack Thespian Stage and Urza's Saga in such a way that Stage keeps the Karnstruct ability forever without dying. :eyebrow: Just saw it on anzid's stream.

[Clark Kant]

I'mma be honest, you clearly have some beef with me but I don't really remember who you are

Lol, no beef. I found your brews a lot of fun.

Didnt you build a hilariously fun deck around Helldozer at some point, or was that someone else.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Apparently you can stack Thespian Stage and Urza's Saga in such a way that Stage keeps the Karnstruct ability forever without dying. :eyebrow: Just saw it on anzid's stream.

No stacking really, just copy something else after two and before 3 resolves

[BirdsOfParadise]

Apparently you can stack Thespian Stage and Urza's Saga in such a way that Stage keeps the Karnstruct ability forever without dying. :eyebrow: Just saw it on anzid's stream.
What else goes in that deck?

Also, how do the rules work there? Stage becomes a Saga, no? And Sagas gain counters each turn, no? It sounds cool, but I’m confused.

[Fox]

What else goes in that deck?

Also, how do the rules work there? Stage becomes a Saga, no? And Sagas gain counters each turn, no? It sounds cool, but I’m confused.

Copy, get second counter "it gains" -> in upkeep before 3rd counter, change to not Saga.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Also, how do the rules work there? Stage becomes a Saga, no? And Sagas gain counters each turn, no? It sounds cool, but I’m confused.
Short answer is layers. Those chapter abilties resolve to create layer 6 effects which are applied after stage's normal layer 1 effect.

Long answer:
Stage is now a Saga. It has 3 Chapter Abilities and 2T: Copy something else.
On your First Main it's chapter abilities triggers and now it has a layer 6 Ability adding effect, T: Add C.
On your next first main, chapter two triggers and now it has a new layer 6 ability adding effect, 2T: Make a Karnstruct.
Now if you copy comething else, the copy will be applied in layer 1, Copy effects. So Your stage has copied a Basic Mountain. It copies everything that is a mountain. Basic Land -- Mountain, T: Add R. But then in layer six, those two other abilities say "Also, this permanant has an effect which added abilities to it: T: Add C and 2T: Make a Karnstruct.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Lol, no beef. I found your brews a lot of fun.

Didnt you build a hilariously fun deck around Helldozer at some point, or was that someone else.

I wouldn't say it was built "around" Helldozer but it did run Helldozer as a kill con yeah

[morgan_coke]

I wouldn't say it was built "around" Helldozer but it did run Helldozer as a kill con yeah

Woah, IBA is back? Why did no one tell me?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So are IBA and Chunderbucket the same poster?

[BirdsOfParadise]

Short answer is layers. Those chapter abilties resolve to create layer 6 effects which are applied after stage's normal layer 1 effect.

Long answer:
Stage is now a Saga. It has 3 Chapter Abilities and 2T: Copy something else.
On your First Main it's chapter abilities triggers and now it has a layer 6 Ability adding effect, T: Add C.
On your next first main, chapter two triggers and now it has a new layer 6 ability adding effect, 2T: Make a Karnstruct.
Now if you copy comething else, the copy will be applied in layer 1, Copy effects. So Your stage has copied a Basic Mountain. It copies everything that is a mountain. Basic Land -- Mountain, T: Add R. But then in layer six, those two other abilities say "Also, this permanant has an effect which added abilities to it: T: Add C and 2T: Make a Karnstruct.
Thank you, FourDogs! (And thanks, Fox, although tbh I needed it spelled out.)

Does this go into some kind of mostly brown deck that also uses Depths (and in which Urza’s Saga can grab Expedition Map so that any two of the three lands is a combo)? I’m curious about how people are using this interaction and how successfully, since someone mentioned seeing it on a stream.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Woah, IBA is back? Why did no one tell me?

I mean, I made a thread

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So are IBA and Chunderbucket the same poster?

No but I was responsible for Thunderbluff if that counts

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Short answer is layers. Those chapter abilties resolve to create layer 6 effects which are applied after stage's normal layer 1 effect.

Long answer:
Stage is now a Saga. It has 3 Chapter Abilities and 2T: Copy something else.
On your First Main it's chapter abilities triggers and now it has a layer 6 Ability adding effect, T: Add C.
On your next first main, chapter two triggers and now it has a new layer 6 ability adding effect, 2T: Make a Karnstruct.
Now if you copy comething else, the copy will be applied in layer 1, Copy effects. So Your stage has copied a Basic Mountain. It copies everything that is a mountain. Basic Land -- Mountain, T: Add R. But then in layer six, those two other abilities say "Also, this permanant has an effect which added abilities to it: T: Add C and 2T: Make a Karnstruct.

That is way too much text to read for a card that has a 0% chance of not being banned

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

That is way too much text to read for a card that has a 0% chance of not being banned

Thankfully I provided a short answer for you too! I even put it first.

[Cire]

Prismatic Ending has been the unexpected breakout for me. It's everywhere now.

[kombatkiwi]

What cards you keep in your sb are based on your deck and your meta. Some decks run decay. Some decks run pithing needle. Again you are just talking nonsense. I asked you what decks A. want the card. B. what cards get cut to put that card in the deck. C. what exciting new decks will this form. Cause I am saying A. None. B. None. C. None. Still waiting while you say just silly things. I don't need to go through every card commonly played in legacy and explain to you why they are run as you are suggesting. The metagame speaks for itself. It is on you to prove, with "any??" points why this new card is an auto-include for some decks, as you actually have said. You said this card will see legacy play. Where? In what decks? Still waiting for.. an actual argument for the card...

gottem

[Barook]

I wonder if we're going to see Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar + The Underworld Cookbook in Legacy as well. It seems to be all the rage in Modern lately.

[Purple Blood]

I wonder if we're going to see Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar + The Underworld Cookbook in Legacy as well. It seems to be all the rage in Modern lately.

Hogaak and Bridge From Below aren't banned in Legacy.

[Reeplcheep]

Hogaak and Bridge From Below aren't banned in Legacy.

It is not as good as gaak in a all in shell. But I think it can't have promise as a cheap CA engine + threat for pox type decks. It plays well with land tax.

[Barook]

I wonder if we can see some Deadguy Ale shell down the line that can utilize Voidwalker in tandem with Sword of the Realms. It has everything to make Voidwalker even better - extra power, vigilance to enable swinging + sac ability and then auto-reycle to do it all again next turn. Throw in Vials to skip the recast and you essentially have an upkeep cost of :1::w: per turn to cast something exiled from your opponent while swinging with a 5 power shadow creature. Might a cool 1-of against certain decks.