Modern Horizons 2 Previews

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/9HTMZV4.png

But wait:
https://i.imgur.com/SNvLBqo.png

Also:
https://i.imgur.com/HNok7wV.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/Qp03zia.png
https://i.imgur.com/5ziTPXJ.png
https://i.imgur.com/9lxzRvD.png
https://i.imgur.com/dPvbOmg.png

[Barook]

That Sanctum Prelate looks so much better than the old version, holy shit.

Hard to rate the Lion and Brainstone. Both seem much worse than their original version. And at 3 mana, every color having access to a sorcery speed Brainstorm doesn't seem to hot. And its CC doesn't really work with Chalice decks.

Urza's Saga is less of a land and more like a spell, given how it works. Might be cool with CoW, though.

[Fox]

Just so we're all on the same page, Urza's Saga is a manland for Dreadstill. Also you all are so effing lucky it can't wish out a Portable Hole.

[phonics]

Whats with wotc embracing the old border again, especially in a set called modern masters? Those old border foil fetches are going to be absurdly expensive.

[Fox]

Whats with wotc embracing the old border again, especially in a set called modern masters? Those old border foil fetches are going to be absurdly expensive.

It is to punish those who blew their stimulus checks on RL cards, when they should have saved up for sealed MM2 boxes.

[Barook]

Whats with wotc embracing the old border again, especially in a set called modern masters? Those old border foil fetches are going to be absurdly expensive.
You've answered your own question. It's all about the $$$ now since Hasbro has realized how badly they can milk MtG.

I don't mind them. I was never a fan of the new border in the first place. And given how WotC has stopped giving a shit about how MtG cards should look, given recent promos and special products, it's a nice change in pace.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I love that Uraza's Saga's subtypes are also Urza's Saga.

[Fox]

I love that Uraza's Saga's subtypes are also Urza's Saga.

Yeah, so the reason for that is so you can Vision Charm, name lands, change Urza's to Island, and Daze it back to hand.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Just so we're all on the same page, Urza's Saga is a manland for Dreadstill. Also you all are so effing lucky it can't wish out a Portable Hole.

Would you settle for a Brittle Effigy?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah, so the reason for that is so you can Vision Charm, name lands, change Urza's to Island, and Daze it back to hand.

Presumably if I had a vision charm I would rather the land hit chapter 3 so I can vision charm the Dreadnought.

[Fox]

Presumably if I had a vision charm I would rather the land hit chapter 3 so I can vision charm the Dreadnought.

That is also an option yes. But then again who really knows, maybe it's time to mill 4 from DDFT or blank some High Tides...

[Barook]

Just so we're all on the same page, Urza's Saga is a manland for Dreadstill.
Seems legit:

T1: Urza's Saga, do whatever
T2: Torpor Orb (or one of the white ETB jammer creatures)
T3: Dreadnought


I love that Uraza's Saga's subtypes are also Urza's Saga.
That's neat, but as long as they don't do anything with the subtype, it's only decorative.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Seems legit:
That's neat, but as long as they don't do anything with the subtype, it's only decorative.
Most subtypes are.

[Fox]

Seems legit:

T1: Urza's Saga, do whatever
T2: Torpor Orb (or one of the white ETB jammer creatures)
T3: Dreadnought


That's neat, but as long as they don't do anything with the subtype, it's only decorative.

Vision Charm disagrees with the use of the word "decorative."

Torpor Orb is not the play. It's turn 1 land, turn 2 Urza's -> Standstill, turn 3 EoT make a dude, untap make a dude. If they crack the Standstill we'll consider tutoring a Dreadnought and Stifle. Postboard we add in something like Needle or Relic or Cursed Scroll and wish that up, turning the 2 dudes into 3/3s. People don't seem to ever understand that just because a deck accommodates Dreadnought that we can do other things. Torpor Orb lives in the SB, where Karn can go to grab it.

[Barook]

Vision Charm disagrees with the use of the word "decorative."

Torpor Orb is not the play. It's turn 1 land, turn 2 Urza's -> Standstill, turn 3 EoT make a dude, untap make a dude. If they crack the Standstill we'll consider tutoring a Dreadnought and Stifle. Postboard we add in something like Needle or Relic or Cursed Scroll and wish that up, turning the 2 dudes into 3/3s. People don't seem to ever understand that just because a deck accommodates Dreadnought that we can do other things. Torpor Orb lives in the SB, where Karn can go to grab it.
Retrofitter Foundry would probably work with this as well, as it provides a steady stream of creatures that's going to buff the tokens even further, while also working under Standstill.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Vision Charm disagrees with the use of the word "decorative."

Torpor Orb is not the play. It's turn 1 land, turn 2 Urza's -> Standstill, turn 3 EoT make a dude, untap make a dude. If they crack the Standstill we'll consider tutoring a Dreadnought and Stifle. Postboard we add in something like Needle or Relic or Cursed Scroll and wish that up, turning the 2 dudes into 3/3s. People don't seem to ever understand that just because a deck accommodates Dreadnought that we can do other things. Torpor Orb lives in the SB, where Karn can go to grab it.

t2 Standstill loses to the t1 Torpor Orb.

[Fox]

t2 Standstill loses to the t1 Torpor Orb.
That doesn't make sense??? Are you implying that Sol Lands and Dreadnought is a thing (because it isn't). There's a lot of bad lists floating around right now with Dreadnought tourists; I think my favorite is playing Teferi without Scroll of Fate...so you can make a Dreadnought at sorcery speed....and then pass the turn into an opponent's main phase. There are also the overly simplistic lists without deck manipulation and like 10 Torpor effects that just die to their own variance.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

(because it isn't).
You have been wrong about this for literal years now.

[Fox]

You have been wrong about this for literal years now.
Results please. Sounds a lot like this thought process:
1- Ancient Tomb + Dreadnought + Mimic
2- zero protection, zero interaction, zero manipulation
3- must play Chalice to have a chance
4- must topdeck a Cavern on Dreadnought, or have the mana come together for Scroll of Fate (you probably didn't add) or Eater of Daze
5- it's okay now because Urza's Saga will be like more Caverns to get in Dreadnought through Chalice
6- sure hope they don't Wasteland this card that has to sit there for 2 of the opponent's turns.

^Modern style deck construction. Linear. Easy to disrupt. No play to it. Dies to Surgical/easy to reduce to enablers only.

If you're going to claim linear Stiflenought is *the* build, like at least have Uro covering your bets [even though you're weak to Surgical and playing the biggest Surgical lightning rod in the format]. Do we need to have the discussion about playing Teferi without Scroll of Fate too? Simply because Oko is banned does not mean that regressing to poor play patterns [sorc speed, summoning sick, phased-in Noughts] is progress.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Results please. Sounds a lot like this thought process:
1- Ancient Tomb + Dreadnought + Mimic
2- zero protection, zero interaction, zero manipulation
3- must play Chalice to have a chance
4- must topdeck a Cavern on Dreadnought, or have the mana come together for Scroll of Fate (you probably didn't add) or Eater of Daze
5- it's okay now because Urza's Saga will be like more Caverns to get in Dreadnought through Chalice
6- sure hope they don't Wasteland this card that has to sit there for 2 of the opponent's turns.

^Modern style deck construction. Linear. Easy to disrupt. No play to it. Dies to Surgical/easy to reduce to enablers only.

If you're going to claim linear Stiflenought is *the* build, like at least have Uro covering your bets [even though you're weak to Surgical and playing the biggest Surgical lightning rod in the format]. Do we need to have the discussion about playing Teferi without Scroll of Fate too? Simply because Oko is banned does not mean that regressing to poor play patterns [sorc speed, summoning sick, phased-in Noughts] is progress.

https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23675&iddeck=184579
https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=6536&iddeck=47340

[Fox]

So a 2011 deck and an event with 24 players in 2017 is it? Tell you what, top8 a showcase (on hard mode - Oko, Dreadhorde, Astrolabe legal). I mean as deeply flawed mantra that "Decay is good against Dreadnought" is, that first event precedes the release of Return to Ravnica.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How much of your homework do I have to do for you, sheesh.

[kombatkiwi]

I do quite like the standstill/retrofitter idea
It can also pick up a few random goodies like gy hate, pithing needle etc, maybe even Ivory Tower
Aether Spellbomb can answer an opponent's creature that resolved before your standstill etc
Some interesting options

[Mr. Safety]

Just so we're all on the same page, Urza's Saga is a manland for Dreadstill. Also you all are so effing lucky it can't wish out a Portable Hole.

It pushes the limits to how many colorless lands you play. I play mono-blue Dreadstill and it still feels like a 2-color deck because of Wasteland/Factory. I agree this is a new tool for it, but either some number of the colorless lands have to go or we have to re-evaluate whether a splash color is feasible with so many colorless lands. I suppose it could take up some number of spell slots, but we already play 22 lands (typically) so the most we would want is maybe 24.

[Mr. Safety]

I do quite like the standstill/retrofitter idea
It can also pick up a few random goodies like gy hate, pithing needle etc, maybe even Ivory Tower
Aether Spellbomb can answer an opponent's creature that resolved before your standstill etc
Some interesting options

Wait, did you mention Aether Spellbomb? I like where you're at. I have always loved the spellbombs!

[Fox]

It pushes the limits to how many colorless lands you play. I play mono-blue Dreadstill and it still feels like a 2-color deck because of Wasteland/Factory. I agree this is a new tool for it, but either some number of the colorless lands have to go or we have to re-evaluate whether a splash color is feasible with so many colorless lands. I suppose it could take up some number of spell slots, but we already play 22 lands (typically) so the most we would want is maybe 24.
What we've been looking for in UR Dreadstill for years is a 2x Manland that can replace 3x Factory. This is the first manland to show promise. This is not getting added to a stack of Wastelands and Factories, it's 3 Factory slots to 2x manland 1x basic.

[Mr. Safety]

Right, so you have to give up Factory. As much as I love Factory, I agree completely. You can't have both, not in a 2-color list. I might try some amount in mono-blue, simply because I have more colorless ways to utilize the actual mana. This new land plays more like a spell anyways due to the sacrifice.

[Fox]

Right, so you have to give up Factory. As much as I love Factory, I agree completely. You can't have both, not in a 2-color list. I might try some amount in mono-blue, simply because I have more colorless ways to utilize the actual mana. This new land plays more like a spell anyways due to the sacrifice.
It's not like Factories didn't already die (particularly when animated), that's an assumption the deck accounts for. I would classify it as exceedingly rare to get 2 attacks out of a Factory without it dying, while this Land is more likely to make 2 attackers before it dies [through Rish Port on the last age turn]. It also will very quickly murder enemy Karn/Lattice; they would need to jank out harder and also have Bridge...but even then, a 6/6 Lattice is looking pretty small.

[Ronald Deuce]

Could Brainstone (LOVE IT) or the Lion's Eye Diamond Lion be useful in Doomsday and such?

Lion seems like it'd be an auto-include in stuff like Bomberman. [EDIT: I'm and idort]

[Reeplcheep]

Could Brainstone (LOVE IT) or the Lion's Eye Diamond Lion be useful in Doomsday and such?

Lion seems like it'd be an auto-include in stuff like Bomberman.

Brainstone is worse in most situations than scroll rack, which sees no play.

Lion doesn’t have haste and can’t be recurred with salvagers

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Could Brainstone (LOVE IT) or the Lion's Eye Diamond Lion be useful in Doomsday and such?

Lion seems like it'd be an auto-include in stuff like Bomberman. [EDIT: I'm and idort]

I think they might see play in modern. Especially when you can Lurrus up your Brainstone.

[Mr. Safety]

It's not like Factories didn't already die (particularly when animated), that's an assumption the deck accounts for. I would classify it as exceedingly rare to get 2 attacks out of a Factory without it dying, while this Land is more likely to make 2 attackers before it dies [through Rish Port on the last age turn]. It also will very quickly murder enemy Karn/Lattice; they would need to jank out harder and also have Bridge...but even then, a 6/6 Lattice is looking pretty small.

Yeah, I was just keeping in the confines of deck contruction with a reasonable mana base in mind, not actual gameplay. Urza's Legacy could very well be much better than Factory, but without results it's still too early to tell.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Why is it necessary for Diamond Lion to include "Activate only as an instant."?

[Reeplcheep]

Why is it necessary for Diamond Lion to include "Activate only as an instant."?

That is the current oracle text of Lion's Eye Diamond. You need that to stop you from using it to cast a spell from your hand normally.

[Ronald Deuce]

Why is it necessary for Diamond Lion to include "Activate only as an instant."?

Presumably for the same reason LED has that restriction. Without it, you can use it to cast things that are in your hand when you activate it. Then again, maybe I'm missing something, or maybe Wizards just wants to make Legacy players associate it with the real deal.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm clearly not a rules aficionado, but isn't that redundant? Doesn't the colon after "Sacrifice, discard your hand" mean that is a cost that has to be met before you get the mana?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I guess you can put something on the stack, pay the mana for it (eg crack a black lotus) but not a LED because you still in the process of putting it on the stack and dont have priority to do something like an instant.

It basically just means LED needs you to have priortiy!

[kombatkiwi]

I guess you can put something on the stack, pay the mana for it (eg crack a black lotus) but not a LED because you still in the process of putting it on the stack and dont have priority to do something like an instant.

It basically just means LED needs you to have priortiy!

Yes, mana abilities can usually be activated in special timing windows that ask you to pay mana, e.g.
- In the middle of the process of casting a spell
- Paying for the tax of something like Ghostly Prison
Instants cannot be cast in these times because you don't have priority
Ergo activating LED/Diamond Lion can't be done in these times either
As was already pointed out the most important balance-related consideration is that it doesn't allow you to begin the process of casting a spell by moving it from your hand to the stack and then using LED to pay the mana for it
You would have to activate the LED before beginning the process of casting the spell, thereby discarding your hand first and making you unable to cast the spell you were intending

[rufus]

Hex Parasite doesn't quite work the way you'd want it it to with Urza's Saga, but it's a cute interaction anyway.

Hmm... Its "mana cost" not "converted mana cost." That means the III ability won't fetch artifact lands, right? Just getting an extra mana for free in two turns would be pretty strong.

[H]

Hex Parasite doesn't quite work the way you'd want it it to with Urza's Saga, but it's a cute interaction anyway.

Hmm... Its "mana cost" not "converted mana cost." That means the III ability won't fetch artifact lands, right? Just getting an extra mana for free in two turns would be pretty strong.

Yeah, remember that Converted Mana Cost got changed to Mana Value, so this says Mana Cost, so I'd guess it is telling you you can get things that only have either :0: or :1: printed in the upper right.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Hex Parasite doesn't quite work the way you'd want it it to with Urza's Saga, but it's a cute interaction anyway.

Hmm... Its "mana cost" not "converted mana cost." That means the III ability won't fetch artifact lands, right? Just getting an extra mana for free in two turns would be pretty strong.

Why doesn't it?

[H]

Why doesn't it?

I am guessing because you can't get the counter for III and then take them off preventing it from being sacrificed, if I understand the rules correctly.

[Fox]

You can use Hex Parasite to yo-yo between stage I and II to maintain a token engine (but will not work on the stage III). The main thing you're looking for however is to get the anti-Chalice effect down through Chalice, while doubling as a PW killer.

[PirateKing]

Trade Routes seems to play well with Urza's Saga, can protect itself and bounce with III on the stack to get all options.

[the Thin White Duke]

Can't wait to see the rest of this artifact cycle of "iconic" spells! I bet red get lightning bolt rock and white gets healing salve rock. Sounds about right...:rolleyes:

[Zoid]

Can't wait to see the rest of this artifact cycle of "iconic" spells! I bet red get lightning bolt rock and white gets healing salve rock. Sounds about right...:rolleyes:

How about a Fastbond or Channel rock?

White probably gets a garbage token rock.

[Reeplcheep]

Can't wait to see the rest of this artifact cycle of "iconic" spells! I bet red get lightning bolt rock and white gets healing salve rock. Sounds about right...:rolleyes:

That’s already happened.

Implement of improvement
Expedition map
Wayfarers Bauble
Explosive Apparratus


Reviatilize vs shock is much closer in power level.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I am guessing because you can't get the counter for III and then take them off preventing it from being sacrificed, if I understand the rules correctly.

You can: gatherer makes explicit that removing the counter won't affect which chapter ability is triggering. Also sagas only sacrifice themselves if their chapter count is equal to their max chapter AND no chapter ability is on the stack.

You can use Hex Parasite to yo-yo between stage I and II to maintain a token engine (but will not work on the stage III). The main thing you're looking for however is to get the anti-Chalice effect down through Chalice, while doubling as a PW killer.

You can do chapter 3 as well:

Once a chapter ability has triggered, the ability on the stack won’t be affected if the Saga gains or loses counters, or if it leaves the battlefield. doesn’t use the stack.

714.4. If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn’t the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga’s controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn’t use the stack.
If the ability is on the stack and you remove the lore counter, both won't be true simultaneously thus the and condition won't be fulfilled, thus the sacrifice won't happen.

[H]

Huh, I thought I had read somewhere that the sacrifice was part of putting the last counter, so that you wouldn't have priority between the "last" counter being placed and the sacrifice being triggered, but maybe I misunderstood.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

But you cant tutor up parasite to save the saga. Once it resolves you cant do anything!

Its still a cute synergie, once you get going you could tutor up expedition maps for more sagas... then some moxes for mana... eventually you go back to II and make some huge tokens!

Yeah hella slow but its a LAND-ENGINE how cool is that? like that bad movie mortal engines xD

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Huh, I thought I had read somewhere that the sacrifice was part of putting the last counter, so that you wouldn't have priority between the "last" counter being placed and the sacrifice being triggered, but maybe I misunderstood.

I am fairly confident that no one, ever, has fully understood how a saga works.

[H]

I am fairly confident that no one, ever, has fully understood how a saga works.

Yeah, having never played with them (or generally thought about them at all), I didn't realize that "and the ability hasn't left the stack" part was shoe-horned in there to forestall the SBA.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah, having never played with them (or generally thought about them at all), I didn't realize that "and the ability hasn't left the stack" part was shoe-horned in there to forestall the SBA.

Sagas also have this:

714.2b “{rN}—[Effect]” means “When one or more lore counters are put onto this Saga, if the number of lore counters on it was less than N and became at least N, [effect].”
Which eagle-eyed players might recognize as an intervening if clause. However, unlike most intervening if clauses you can't make this one no longer true, because it uses "was less", which refers to a point in time you can't get back to.
(This is why removing a counter doesn't mess up which chapter is being triggered.)

[Zoid]

But you cant tutor up parasite to save the saga. Once it resolves you cant do anything!

Its still a cute synergie, once you get going you could tutor up expedition maps for more sagas... then some moxes for mana... eventually you go back to II and make some huge tokens!

Yeah hella slow but its a LAND-ENGINE how cool is that? like that bad movie mortal engines xD

You don't have to go back.
It keeps all of it's abilities from the previous chapters so you'll always be able to make at least 2 tokens.

[rufus]

Yeah, remember that Converted Mana Cost got changed to Mana Value, so this says Mana Cost, so I'd guess it is telling you you can get things that only have either :0: or :1: printed in the upper right.

Yeah, it would be pretty silly if it could fetch Mox Tantalite or Lotus Bloom too. Obviously the old school moxen work well with it. Even stuff like Mox Opal or Chrome Mox as mana sources or Chromatic Sphere or Urza's bauble as ways to recover CA seem like pretty strong fetch options.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/jBkFAzu.png
https://i.imgur.com/D9iHB9n.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/KOGMQO1.png
https://i.imgur.com/KLNFNFW.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/8Vh3X6m.png
https://i.imgur.com/S4DKTqx.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/FDY0Tkr.png
https://i.imgur.com/Ngtuaxo.png

[Barook]

Lots of powerful cards. We're probably going to sit out multiple bans again in the next few years. :rolleyes:

Rishadan Porthand is going to be annoying as fuck. Trading mana 1vs1 is much more powerful than 2vs1.

Grief is obviously powerful and much better than Unmask in fair decks.

Timeless Dragon is an extremely powerful addition to white Stompy decks. I've screwing around with Angel of the Ruins/Eternal Dragons lately and this is a straight upgrade to Eternal Dragon. Having land cyclers makes Mox Diamond much more viable. Hell, even color splashes become more feasible with a land cyclers + Mox Diamond - Hullbreacher or Opposition Agent/Plague Engineer or Ramunap/Dryard come into mind. I do have high expectations at this card. You can now easily do something like this:

T1: Sol Land, cycle Dragon
T2: Land, Mox Diamond, Eternalize

You now have 4 mana (unless it was City of Traitors) and a 4/4 flyer in play - at effectively zero card disadvantage.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Grief is going to be better than Thoughtseize. There's lots of ways to get creatures back and just the fact that it's not dead off the top makes it pretty busted. Also can't be stopped by Chalice or Spell Pierce or Thalia etc..

[Barook]

Grief is going to be better than Thoughtseize. There's lots of ways to get creatures back and just the fact that it's not dead off the top makes it pretty busted. Also can't be stopped by Chalice or Spell Pierce or Thalia etc..
MD Reanimate is going to really strong - either you grab it again to destroy their hand or reanimate their juicy fatty. Imagine stealing Griselbrand on T1. :tongue:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://i.imgur.com/KLNFNFW.png

This card is part of a cycle and is my prediction for knee-jerk bannings.

[Fox]

Can't put Misthollow Griffin or the 3/3 Eldrazi guy they play into exile. That's all we need to know about Grief.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Can't put Misthollow Griffin or the 3/3 Eldrazi guy they play into exile. That's all we need to know about Grief.

First it's a cycle, and second it's a t1 double unmask that becomes a triple unmask if you cast Ephemerate instead of cloudshift.

[PirateKing]

Can't put Misthollow Griffin or the 3/3 Eldrazi guy they play into exile. That's all we need to know about Grief.

Painter's Servant: Do I mean nothing to you?

[Fox]

Painter's Servant: Do I mean nothing to you?
Well played sir. Alas there is no pop song reference that talks about painting and the color black/turns on rolling stones :laugh:

[Mr. Safety]

This card is part of a cycle and is my prediction for knee-jerk bannings.

I don't think so. If this is the best one, like Force of Negation/cycle in MH1, it will be good but not busted.

The Ephemerate play seems very, very strong.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I don't think so. If this is the best one, like Force of Negation/cycle in MH1, it will be good but not busted.

The Ephemerate play seems very, very strong.

If they copy the masques cycle, the red one will also be very good as removal
E: unrelated but Grief is a strict upgrade over unmask right?

[Ahab]

If they copy the masques cycle, the red one will also be very good as removal
E: unrelated but Grief is a strict upgrade over unmask right?

You can target yourself with Unmask, which is very relevant for reanimator.

[Vacrix]

Vine Dryad and Unmask had a baby?! Good Grief.

One can respond to the ETB on Grief with Culling the Weak as well. Burnt Offering and Sacrifice work similarly with the 4 cmc.

Its blinkable in WB Death and Taxes. UB Reanimator will surely try it out since it already plays Reanimate.

[Fox]

UB Reanimator is likely happier playing discard spells. The deck pitches cards to FoW, not Unmask.

[jethstriker]

I've always dreamed of at least a 2 mana Entomb effect slot 5 through 8. Unmarked Grave is not what I have in mind. Anyway is there a way we can squeeze this through as 1 or 2 of? Or the UB / RB lists are already tight as it is?

[kombatkiwi]

I've always dreamed of at least a 2 mana Entomb effect slot 5 through 8. Unmarked Grave is not what I have in mind. Anyway is there a way we can squeeze this through as 1 or 2 of? Or the UB / RB lists are already tight as it is?

Not getting griselbrand is kind of a flop right


Rishadan Porthand is going to be annoying as fuck. Trading mana 1vs1 is much more powerful than 2vs1.
1 mana 1/2 islandwalk is also a much worse card than Wastes


Grief is obviously powerful and much better than Unmask in fair decks.
Sorry which fair decks are playing unmask?
In a vacuum I think this is a kind of good/cool design, obviously it's a powerful card
I'm a little bit afraid that the ephemerate interaction pushes it over the edge, especially in modern (and I'm afraid of what the other ones in the cycle do for the same reason)


Grief is going to be better than Thoughtseize. There's lots of ways to get creatures back and just the fact that it's not dead off the top makes it pretty busted. Also can't be stopped by Chalice or Spell Pierce or Thalia etc..
The two cards aren't really directly comparable I don't think
There are lots of decks that aren't interested in the creature aspect, won't want to pay 2bb for it and also don't value the 0 mana worth 2-for-1ing yourself
Of course this is still a statement you can make (just like "Griselbrand is better than Thoughtseize" or whatever)

[Fox]

1 mana 1/2 islandwalk is also a much worse card than Wastes
This is anti 1cmc 1/2 Lackey propaganda and we won't have it! :eek:

[Erdvermampfa]

No Legacy playable cards so far. Everything revealed is either too weak or too conditional.

[Mr Miagi]

Grief is pretty much a straight upgrade over Unmask.

[Mr. Safety]

I like Unmarked Grave for the Depths Reanimator hybrid. One of the key threats, for a while, was Grave Titan, which isn't legendary. It isn't an efficient way to tutor our Vampire Hexmage, but that is an option. I like Grief for the same deck, it seems like a pretty good value card. If you have an unnecessary Dark Ritual in hand you can either power it out, or if you need to make multiple plays you can pitch the DR/redundant black card to alternative cast it. I think it will go well in a deck that has a healthy amount of redundancy that can spare a card to enable it's 'free' clause.

Manaless Dredge comes to mind as well for Grief, it ticks off all the boxes for being playable in that deck: black creature for Ichorid, free hand disruption like Cabal Therapy, and you really don't care about losing a card when your real hand is your stuffed graveyard. I don't think it makes the deck jump a tier or anything like that, but I do think it's a pretty clean and powerful option for that deck. It might replace Chancellor of the Annex in the decks that play it. While it doesn't do anything for your g2-3, the deck's biggest weakness, it might be a piece of the puzzle.

[Mr. Safety]

Grief is pretty much a straight upgrade over Unmask.

It can't target yourself, so it still has some competition in decks like RB Reanimator.

Also, Unmarked Grave seems ok in a deck that wants to play both Life from the Loam and Chalice of the Void, if that's a thing you want to do.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I like Unmarked Grave for the Depths Reanimator hybrid. One of the key threats, for a while, was Grave Titan, which isn't legendary. It isn't an efficient way to tutor our Vampire Hexmage, but that is an option. I like Grief for the same deck, it seems like a pretty good value card. If you have an unnecessary Dark Ritual in hand you can either power it out, or if you need to make multiple plays you can pitch the DR/redundant black card to alternative cast it. I think it will go well in a deck that has a healthy amount of redundancy that can spare a card to enable it's 'free' clause.

Manaless Dredge comes to mind as well for Grief, it ticks off all the boxes for being playable in that deck: black creature for Ichorid, free hand disruption like Cabal Therapy, and you really don't care about losing a card when your real hand is your stuffed graveyard. I don't think it makes the deck jump a tier or anything like that, but I do think it's a pretty clean and powerful option for that deck. It might replace Chancellor of the Annex in the decks that play it. While it doesn't do anything for your g2-3, the deck's biggest weakness, it might be a piece of the puzzle.

Sideboard card at best in dredge

[Whoshim]

Yeah, I think that Grief is another of the many win-more cards that can be played in Manaless Dredge. As hand disruption, it is worse than Unmask since it cannot target yourself. It is nice if you have a Bridge in the graveyard, but if you already have a Bridge, your engine is going. Unmask can help get the engine started, while Grief cannot, and getting to dredging is the most important thing. As FourDogs said, it may be a sideboard card over Unmask, but I don't think it is worth a maindeck slot.

[morgan_coke]

The Suspend Tutor is absurd in the Collected Conjuring decks. If there's another full cycle of those, plus another cycle of pitch cards, that's probably enough to push that thing to real Legacy deck status, it's already showing in Modern. Wish I could have gotten that one figured out back when I messing with it after it first came out. I knew the potential, I just couldn't get the list/play orders right.

[Reeplcheep]

Not getting griselbrand is kind of a flop right


1 mana 1/2 islandwalk is also a much worse card than Wastes


Sorry which fair decks are playing unmask?
In a vacuum I think this is a kind of good/cool design, obviously it's a powerful card
I'm a little bit afraid that the ephemerate interaction pushes it over the edge, especially in modern (and I'm afraid of what the other ones in the cycle do for the same reason)


The two cards aren't really directly comparable I don't think
There are lots of decks that aren't interested in the creature aspect, won't want to pay 2bb for it and also don't value the 0 mana worth 2-for-1ing yourself
Of course this is still a statement you can make (just like "Griselbrand is better than Thoughtseize" or whatever)

Unmarked tomb: maybe entomb 5-6 in worldgorger. Pretty bad

Magus of the port: Not taking up your land drop means it is effectively one less mana to activate. Also merfolk is critically low on good 1 drops which are needed for your lords to be decent. This will be good in a u/w vial or merfolk deck, but those decks might still be bad for other reasons.

Grief is absurd in gaak. It’s an unmask that gives you a 4/3 (with vengevine) or a 2/2 (with BFB)

In fair decks, basically everything you said applies to force of will or negation though. Unmask was not playable because both the alt cast and the hard cast were worse than force of will. Due to the lack of tempo gain, the alt cast is worse than force of will. But the hard cast is much better than force of will. It’s a 1 for 2 which can also be a 2 for 1. This is a force effect that pox wants even without synergies like reanimate/ephermeate/lily last hope.

[Reeplcheep]

No Legacy playable cards so far. Everything revealed is either too weak or too conditional.

Grief will make bug gaak the best graveyard deck and possible tier 1.

Triggers bridge for free

Triggers vengevine for free

Doesn’t hurt yourself like thoughtseize (very relevant vs ur)

Flood insurance

Quite good vs Omnitell which is a horrible mu.

Pushes through crab or supplier on t1 (relevant vs control)

Free hand information, refunding the card disadvantage in conjunction with cabal therapy.

Makes the deck a bit better vs blood moon and chalice.

In dredge or reanimate it isn’t very good as mentioned above. The last three points were true of unmask, but the first ones make it go from worse than thoughtseize to much better.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think it's very short-sighted to say that Grief is worse than Unmask in reanimator because you can't target yourself. It ignores that Grief itself is a very easy and profitable reanimation target. No it's not Griselbrand but turn 1 Grief, Reanimate Grief is a really powerful play that's very low investment. You've spent two cards to take your opponent's two best cards and have an evasive 3/2 body; it's basically an upgrade on Turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Hymn, which is a very strong opening.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Could also be played with stuff like village rites. Evoke is easy to abuse with lots of stuff.

Swamp, Grief, Rite seem like a really good turn 1 play.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Could also be played with stuff like village rites. Evoke is easy to abuse with lots of stuff.

Swamp, Grief, Rite seem like a really good turn 1 play.

Just...just cast thoughtseize....

[Mr Miagi]

Also, Grief and Ephemerate is juicy, probably not legacy playable but damn, modern will get a lot more spicy.

[Reeplcheep]

I think it's very short-sighted to say that Grief is worse than Unmask in reanimator because you can't target yourself. It ignores that Grief itself is a very easy and profitable reanimation target. No it's not Griselbrand but turn 1 Grief, Reanimate Grief is a really powerful play that's very low investment. You've spent two cards to take your opponent's two best cards and have an evasive 3/2 body; it's basically an upgrade on Turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Hymn, which is a very strong opening.

I think this might be strong, but you mathd wrong. It’s 3 cards to take your opponents best 2 cards and a 3/3 body. Ie 2x thoughtseize plus delver. Which is a very effecient 3 for 3 for something Like deaths shadow. but not card advantage.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Also, Grief and Ephemerate is juicy, probably not legacy playable but damn, modern will get a lot more spicy.

So you get 3 thoughtseize and a body for just one mana. Yeah that IS juicy.

[Barook]

Also, Grief and Ephemerate is juicy, probably not legacy playable but damn, modern will get a lot more spicy.
How is tripple Thoughtseize with zero life loss and getting a 3/2 Menace beater NOT juicy? I could see it played in some kind of ETB deck, but question is how you get enough black cards to make it work.

[Cire]

How is tripple Thoughtseize with zero life loss and getting a 3/2 Menace beater NOT juicy? I could see it played in some kind of ETB deck, but question is how you get enough black cards to make it work.

Maybe a weird Shadow/Delver Esper deck?

4 Delver
4 Grief
4 Death's Shadow
1 Gurmag Angler

4 STP
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Ephermate
2 Fatal Push
2 Snuff Out

17 Lands

Edit - eh - ephermate in this is sort of useless other than the grief "combo"

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Sanppys and Strix so you can "cycle" ephermate.

Also if I unserstand the Grief combo correctly it is somewhat removal proof. You can stack it that unmask resolves first, clearing the hand from removal. He could respond with a bolt but then you ephermate anyway!

[Whoshim]

Looking at a recent Esper Yorion list on MtGTop8 (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=30602&d=438637&f=LE), there are a number of potentially useful creatures to use Ephemerate with:

28 CREATURES
4 Baleful Strix
1 Barrin, Tolarian Archmage
4 Charming Prince
1 Fblthp, the Lost
2 Gilded Drake
1 Hullbreacher
4 Meddling Mage
1 Palace Jailer
1 Peacekeeper
1 Plague Engineer
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Skyclave Apparition
1 Soulherder
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Now, that deck is mostly UW, but I figure that some Esper list with more B, or a simple WB list with Grief could be made, running things like Village Rites and Ephemerate with Tidehollow Sculler and Grief, etc.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Sanppys and Strix so you can "cycle" ephermate.

Also if I unserstand the Grief combo correctly it is somewhat removal proof. You can stack it that unmask resolves first, clearing the hand from removal. He could respond with a bolt but then you ephermate anyway!

That is correct, one isn't enough

[Barook]

Any instant speed sacrifice effect should also be pretty good with it, e.g. Grief + Phyrexian Tower to ramp early.

Village Rites would also go well with Sedgemoor Witch, or Cabal Therapy, for the matter. Free info to set up a 100% hit T1 Cabal Therapy is very strong, as Gitaxian Probe has shown. Grief can pitch a Chain of Smog you don't have immediate use for. Grief can also provide a body for Therapy if you play it normally later on.

Both Reanimate (get Grief back or steal their fatty) and Cabal Therapy (100% hit) enable very powerful T1 plays with Grief while not being completely useless by themselves. Definitely something to watch out for. I expect this card package to show up in alot of black decks that can run 1 cmc cards.

[zzap]

Yeah, I think that Grief is another of the many win-more cards that can be played in Manaless Dredge. As hand disruption, it is worse than Unmask since it cannot target yourself. It is nice if you have a Bridge in the graveyard, but if you already have a Bridge, your engine is going. Unmask can help get the engine started, while Grief cannot, and getting to dredging is the most important thing. As FourDogs said, it may be a sideboard card over Unmask, but I don't think it is worth a maindeck slot.

Do you even play Manaless Dredge? From this post, it doesn't seem so. If you've actually played and experienced the deck, you'd know that the "engine" doesn't go online until turn 3 with non-Street Wraith hands because of the timing of triggers. Against fast combo, Grief can provide bodies on turn 2, which is incredibly rare for this deck other than Narcomoebas, with Bridges, and possibly a Dread Return win right there, or slow down their combo to get to turn 3. It's not just win-more in this case.

Unmasking yourself to start the engine is so narrow that it's not even worth mentioning, in my opinion. So, it's not something to debate between Unmask and Grief. You're playing the wrong deck or playing the deck wrong if you are consistently using Unmask like this.

I'm not saying it should be in the 60, but the points you've brought up aren't helpful and telegraph inexperience.

[Pittplayer]

The fact that Grief is a discard spell, that is relevant late game.... is actually better then people are giving it credit for. Early game seize late game evasive beater? That's a pretty good card.

[Whoshim]

I'm not saying it should be in the 60, but the points you've brought up aren't helpful and telegraph inexperience.

Yeah, I have come around on my opinion since I wrote that. I have been doing more regular dredge recently, so it has been a while since I have played Manaless. I think Grief is better than Unmask in Manaless, but I still don't know as it should be run main deck.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Oh boy Malakir Rebirth as redundant copy! As I said evoke is so easy to abuse... There are like 100 high synergie cards out there!

[Mr Miagi]

As well as Undying evil. Grief gonna be busted.

[Barook]

Grief is apparently part of a mythic cycle. I wonder what the other ones are going to do.

Edit: New removal:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2JZ_uSXoAA39rs?format=jpg&name=small

[Mr. Safety]

That's cool, so it's always an exile for a 1-drop and scales up easily in a 2-3 color deck, which is easy to do. Being a sorcery is a minor drawback, but not enough to hold it back. This is a shoe-in for UW control in modern and can be very good in anything playing T3Feri.

[Fox]

Worse EE, except that it kills Klothys. Celestial Purge should not be in legacy SBs any more.

[Clark Kant]

It's way less mana intensive than EE and an upgrade in most situations.

It's going to be a modern staple for various WUG, WUB and UWR decks even as a sorcery. It's basically an improved vindicate (it can't blow up lands but it often costs 1-2 less mana than Vindicate). Going to see quite a bit of legacy play as well. And to think, they felt Vindicate was too powerful to upshift into Modern in MH1.

Just thankful it's not a rare or mythic.

[Fox]

I think you're overestimating this card. It's still a 1-for-1 that joins Plow in the "combo doesn't care" category. It isn't particularly effective to fight FIRE design with 1-for-1s (especially a potentially expensive sorcery).

There are few legacy decks trying to pile up Path on top of Plow maindeck. There are also fewer wrath effects being played to reset the board to 1-for-1 relevance.

Path is another card that can be replaced in a SB with this card, unless you're looking exactly for anti-Lage only.

[Barook]

MH2 seems to have a squirrel theme:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/squirrelsanctuary.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/ravenoussquirrel.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/squirrelsovereign.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/squirrelmob.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/chatterfangsquirrelgeneral.jpg

The General seems kinda interesting - is there a way to abuse its ability?

https://i.redd.it/p2v813al53171.png

[Pittplayer]

MH2 seems to have a squirrel theme:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/squirrelsanctuary.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/ravenoussquirrel.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/squirrelsovereign.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/squirrelmob.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/chatterfangsquirrelgeneral.jpg

The General seems kinda interesting - is there a way to abuse its ability?

https://i.redd.it/p2v813al53171.png

Snapping this back gets rid of half your opponent's deck.

[Pittplayer]

I think you're overestimating this card. It's still a 1-for-1 that joins Plow in the "combo doesn't care" category. It isn't particularly effective to fight FIRE design with 1-for-1s (especially a potentially expensive sorcery).

There are few legacy decks trying to pile up Path on top of Plow maindeck. There are also fewer wrath effects being played to reset the board to 1-for-1 relevance.

Path is another card that can be replaced in a SB with this card, unless you're looking exactly for anti-Lage only.

Exactly. This wont see any play in legacy

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/latetodinner.jpg

Strictly better Breath of Life. Between all those new Plainscyclers and maybe the white evoke pitcher (assuming it doesn't suck), I wonder how feasible a mono-W Reanimator Stompy is going to be. They seem to tacke the white reanimation angle again lately.

[Ronald Deuce]

Grief is apparently part of a mythic cycle. I wonder what the other ones are going to do.

OOH! Ooh! White one will be called Frustration and will have Flash, Hexproof, and "Your opponents can't resolve Tendrils of Agony."

[Wrath of Pie]

OOH! Ooh! White one will be called Frustration and will have Flash, Hexproof, and "Your opponents can't resolve Tendrils of Agony."

I'm sold.

[Barook]

OOH! Ooh! White one will be called Frustration and will have Flash, Hexproof, and "Your opponents can't resolve Tendrils of Agony."
A white flash creature with a Chant effect for non-creature spells isn't actually that unrealistic.

[H]

A white flash creature with a Chant effect for non-creature spells isn't actually that unrealistic.

Let's not pretend that there isn't a real chance that they just slap a terrible Healing Salve version on a lackluster body though.

(I mean, I kind of doubt it, but White (and even worse, Red) cards from most cycles tend to be terrible with a few notable exceptions.)

[Barook]

New card:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/riseandshine.jpg


Let's not pretend that there isn't a real chance that they just slap a terrible Healing Salve version on a lackluster body though.

(I mean, I kind of doubt it, but White (and even worse, Red) cards from most cycles tend to be terrible with a few notable exceptions.)
I don't think they would go down the troll route, considering how people have been kicking and screaming for years how awful white has become.

Reverent Mantra was the white Masques counterpart to Unmask. I wouldn't be surprised if they made a creature out of it - with Flash and one-sided.

[kombatkiwi]

The X spell is good lol idk what you are smoking

1 mana kill 1 or 0 mana permanent (Vial, Carpet, Delver, etc)
2 mana kill 2 mana permanent (goyf, library, chalice on 1)
3 mana kill 3 mana permanent (klothys, teferi/narset, equipment / moon / choke etc)

X mechanic with converge means it plays around thalia well


It's still a 1-for-1 that joins Plow in the "combo doesn't care" category
Ok so all these cards:
Vanishing Verse
Vindicate
Wear/Tear
Disenchant
Rip Apart
Council's Judgment
Unexpectedly Absent
Abrade
Abrupt Decay

Aren't playable either? Got it

[Pittplayer]

The X spell is good lol idk what you are smoking

1 mana kill 1 or 0 mana permanent (Vial, Carpet, Delver, etc)
2 mana kill 2 mana permanent (goyf, library, chalice on 1)
3 mana kill 3 mana permanent (klothys, teferi/narset, equipment / moon / choke etc)

X mechanic with converge means it plays around thalia well


Ok so all these cards:
Vanishing Verse
Vindicate
Wear/Tear
Disenchant
Rip Apart
Council's Judgment
Unexpectedly Absent
Abrade
Abrupt Decay

Aren't playable either? Got it

STP kills Griselbrand for 1 mana, how much does this one take to do that? 4 mana of different colors to kill a Jace TMS? In a format with Abrupt Decay, Red Elemental Blast, Vindicate, whatever, and you seriously think this is playable. Ah spoiler season. Show me what deck wants this and what cards get cut. What card does U/W Miracles cut for this? What card does Strawberry shortcake cut? Death and taxes? Maybe they all start playing 4 colors because of how powerful this card is? Right. I will look forward when this card disappears and everyone acts like they always knew it was garbage. Council's Judgement is better then this 10 out of 10 times. Want to hit a vial? Decay cant be countered. Kill a Jace? REB is 1 mana. It's on you to prove why this card is better or at least on par with those. Your whole argument is, this kills stuff, these other things kill stuff, so this is great! The fact you listed a bunch of cards that " kill stuff" and dont see why those cards are different and why this card is subpar to other options is silly.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

OOH! Ooh! White one will be called Frustration and will have Flash, Hexproof, and "Your opponents can't resolve Tendrils of Agony."

"You and frustation have hexproof"

[Wrath of Pie]

"You and frustation have hexproof"
I said I was sold earlier.

I stand corrected, it was definitely missing something.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/voidmirror.jpg

Sounds like a beating against Shop decks in Vintage.

New G/W Sword:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E2MRsplXsAUkf_H?format=jpg&name=900x900

Seems pretty sweet in a deck that can abuse ETB effects.

[ESG]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/voidmirror.jpg

Sounds like a beating against Shop decks in Vintage.

Looks like it hits all pitch spells and all zero CMC spells, so this might be preferred over Defense Grid in Legacy in some matchups. Also stops things cast with Omniscience.

[Pittplayer]

Looks like it hits all pitch spells and all zero CMC spells, so this might be preferred over Defense Grid in Legacy in some matchups. Also stops things cast with Omniscience.

Early game grid is better. Late game mirror is better. So it depends on what matchups you are boarding for.

[Fox]

Song of Freyalise + Solemnity + Void Mirror is what we call a combo. :laugh:
It's like Karn wish Lattice, only you have to work a lot harder. This card seems like it's mostly for Tomb to counter FoW.

[kombatkiwi]

STP kills Griselbrand for 1 mana, how much does this one take to do that? 4 mana of different colors to kill a Jace TMS? In a format with Abrupt Decay, Red Elemental Blast, Vindicate, whatever, and you seriously think this is playable. Ah spoiler season. Show me what deck wants this and what cards get cut. What card does U/W Miracles cut for this? What card does Strawberry shortcake cut? Death and taxes? Maybe they all start playing 4 colors because of how powerful this card is? Right. I will look forward when this card disappears and everyone acts like they always knew it was garbage. Council's Judgement is better then this 10 out of 10 times. Want to hit a vial? Decay cant be countered. Kill a Jace? REB is 1 mana. It's on you to prove why this card is better or at least on par with those. Your whole argument is, this kills stuff, these other things kill stuff, so this is great! The fact you listed a bunch of cards that " kill stuff" and dont see why those cards are different and why this card is subpar to other options is silly.

Me: "card is good, it compares favourably to playable cards ABCD"
You: "you idiot, it compares unfavourably to playable cards WXYZ"


STP kills Griselbrand for 1 mana, how much does this one take to do that?
Did I say this card was a replacement for Swords to Plowshares? Was STP on the list of cards I thought were comparable?


4 mana of different colors to kill a Jace TMS? In a format with Abrupt Decay, Red Elemental Blast, Vindicate, whatever, and you seriously think this is playable.
A) Decay can't even kill jace at all
B) Did I say this card was a replacement for Pyroblast? Was Pyroblast on the list of cards I thought were comparable?
C) Yes I legitimately believe this card is better than vindicate in decks playing 3 colours most of the time


What card does U/W Miracles cut for this? What card does Strawberry shortcake cut? Death and taxes?
Oh I'm sorry I forgot that for this card to be considered good it has to be a staple in literally every single decklist that can produce white mana, silly me


Council's Judgement is better then this 10 out of 10 times.
10 out of 10 times you are exiling a permanent that costs more than 3?
Not to mention that the Uro decks have a much easier time making UWG than 1WW


Want to hit a vial? Decay cant be countered. Kill a Jace? REB is 1 mana. It's on you to prove why this card is better or at least on par with those.
Want to kill A? Use card B
Want to kill X? Use card Y! It's only 1 mana
Let's totally ignore the fact that this new card potentially kills both A and X whereas B and Y are stuck in their respective lane. Why does costing 1 mana only matter when it's REB killing jace but not when it's Prismatic Ending killing vial


Your whole argument is, this kills stuff, these other things kill stuff, so this is great! The fact you listed a bunch of cards that " kill stuff" and dont see why those cards are different and why this card is subpar to other options is silly.

You haven't made any effort to refute that at all
You have only made clear arguments for why the card is better than Swords and Pyro, two cards which I didn't compare it to, and "Abrupt Decay can't be countered when it kills Vial", in which case, uh, fine?


In a format with Abrupt Decay, Red Elemental Blast, Vindicate, whatever, and you seriously think this is playable.
This is literally the exact same shit you're attempting to drag me for

Your whole argument is, this kills stuff, but these other cards that already exist also kill stuff, so this sucks. The fact you listed a bunch of cards that " kill stuff" and dont see why those cards are different and why this card is superior to other options is silly.

[Pittplayer]

Me: "card is good, it compares favourably to playable cards ABCD"
You: "you idiot, it compares unfavourably to playable cards WXYZ"


Did I say this card was a replacement for Swords to Plowshares? Was STP on the list of cards I thought were comparable?


A) Decay can't even kill jace at all
B) Did I say this card was a replacement for Pyroblast? Was Pyroblast on the list of cards I thought were comparable?
C) Yes I legitimately believe this card is better than vindicate in decks playing 3 colours most of the time


Oh I'm sorry I forgot that for this card to be considered good it has to be a staple in literally every single decklist that can produce white mana, silly me


10 out of 10 times you are exiling a permanent that costs more than 3?
Not to mention that the Uro decks have a much easier time making UWG than 1WW


Want to kill A? Use card B
Want to kill X? Use card Y! It's only 1 mana
Let's totally ignore the fact that this new card potentially kills both A and X whereas B and Y are stuck in their respective lane. Why does costing 1 mana only matter when it's REB killing jace but not when it's Prismatic Ending killing vial



You haven't made any effort to refute that at all
You have only made clear arguments for why the card is better than Swords and Pyro, two cards which I didn't compare it to, and "Abrupt Decay can't be countered when it kills Vial", in which case, uh, fine?


This is literally the exact same shit you're attempting to drag me for

Your whole argument is, this kills stuff, but these other cards that already exist also kill stuff, so this sucks. The fact you listed a bunch of cards that " kill stuff" and dont see why those cards are different and why this card is superior to other options is silly.

What cards you keep in your sb are based on your deck and your meta. Some decks run decay. Some decks run pithing needle. Again you are just talking nonsense. I asked you what decks A. want the card. B. what cards get cut to put that card in the deck. C. what exciting new decks will this form. Cause I am saying A. None. B. None. C. None. Still waiting while you say just silly things. I don't need to go through every card commonly played in legacy and explain to you why they are run as you are suggesting. The metagame speaks for itself. It is on you to prove, with "any??" points why this new card is an auto-include for some decks, as you actually have said. You said this card will see legacy play. Where? In what decks? Still waiting for.. an actual argument for the card...

[Fox]

Vindicate can't kill Klothys. This SB slot would be Purge which is now this XW spell. It is unlikely a deck needs Vindicate to kill Karakas or Field, but has cards to kill Klothys. This is the SB area it competes against.

On maindeck, the list of cards named by @kombatkiwi are not profitably played on top of Plow. There is a limit to how many cards like Plow you can maindeck and still compete.

[kombatkiwi]

In any 3C+ deck it potentially does the following roles
- Disenchant from the SB
- Additional cheap removal from the SB a la Path to Exile or whatever
- SB answer to whatever weird permanent from the SB (like Fox says e.g. Klothys, but also any 3 mana PW, Ensnaring Bridge, etc)
- Like Rip Apart / Fracture etc it has the upside of being super flexible (e.g. you can board it in vs Delver with the plan of killing Klothys or Sylvan Library with it, but unlike e.g. Purge it also just kills their Delver for 1 mana or their Goyf for 2 mana or whatever it needs to do in the given situation, in the control mirror it's an on-curve answer to Carpet and Library and Uro etc etc)

E.g. Stefano 4C miracles in manatraders top8 recently played 2 Rip Apart in the SB, I think this is an upgrade to that

Also in any 3C+ deck that was previously maindecking a CJ or Vindicate type of card (or wants to but double white too prohibitive) I think it's fairly likely that this just outright replaces those

"What exciting new decks will this form" it's a modal removal spell? First you said "won't see any play in legacy", but now it's apparently not good enough unless it makes 5 colour sunburst a viable deck, you are shifting the goalposts into the stratosphere

[Fox]

@kombatkiwi please read posts before making comments like that. From my same post:

There are few legacy decks trying to pile up Path on top of Plow maindeck. There are also fewer wrath effects being played to reset the board to 1-for-1 relevance.

Path is another card that can be replaced in a SB with this card, unless you're looking exactly for anti-Lage only.

Edit: When you talk about maindecks, this XW spell turns into -1 anti-TNN slot...in a list that probably also has not enough wrath effects. EE has better coverage than this new card in MD. 10 times out of 10 choosing EE for a maindeck slot.

[kombatkiwi]

Comments like what? I have no idea what you're even trying to say (Edit: when you edit your posts multiple times after making them it's even more difficult to follow)

If you're just making the argument that you don't think 1-3 mana sorcery "exile target permanent" is a legacy maindeck playable card then I don't disagree super strongly (I do disagree a little bit) but even then I think it's a very strong SB option, which does clear the bar for "good" or "sees play in legacy", in my opinion

[Fox]

I've been very clear and consistent on this point, this is an anti-Klothys card. Anti-Klothys cards live in SBs. If you are interested in this card, it should just be EE...unless the only purpose is to kill Klothys with that slot.

Celestial Purge is no longer a playable legacy sideboard card.

[Pittplayer]

In any 3C+ deck it potentially does the following roles
- Disenchant from the SB
- Additional cheap removal from the SB a la Path to Exile or whatever
- SB answer to whatever weird permanent from the SB (like Fox says e.g. Klothys, but also any 3 mana PW, Ensnaring Bridge, etc)
- Like Rip Apart / Fracture etc it has the upside of being super flexible (e.g. you can board it in vs Delver with the plan of killing Klothys or Sylvan Library with it, but unlike e.g. Purge it also just kills their Delver for 1 mana or their Goyf for 2 mana or whatever it needs to do in the given situation, in the control mirror it's an on-curve answer to Carpet and Library and Uro etc etc)

E.g. Stefano 4C miracles in manatraders top8 recently played 2 Rip Apart in the SB, I think this is an upgrade to that

Also in any 3C+ deck that was previously maindecking a CJ or Vindicate type of card (or wants to but double white too prohibitive) I think it's fairly likely that this just outright replaces those

"What exciting new decks will this form" it's a modal removal spell? First you said "won't see any play in legacy", but now it's apparently not good enough unless it makes 5 colour sunburst a viable deck, you are shifting the goalposts into the stratosphere

Since you were not really stating any argument, I tried to help you form one. To sum up, I asked what decks want the card, and if your argument was it forms a new deck or will slot into a new deck what deck that would be. But again you just try to argue non-points. Saying things like " additional cheap removal ", yeah, so is Terror.. BUT WHY WOULD A DECK PICK THIS CARD OVER ANOTHER? You did say, it's flexible, which I guess is a point. But the deck restrictions I feel outway the flexibility. And any deck running Wxx I think prefers CJ over this. In most builds, if you want to hit delver or vial or library or 3 mana walker or bridge, your go-to is Abrupt Decay since it has a cheap cost and can not be countered. I don't see this replacing that. If you want a catch-all kind of card, CJ is the card to go to for a deck that plays white. I don't see any cases being made 1. why this card will see play or 2. what decks want this and what card this replaces. So I am done with this conversation.

[kombatkiwi]

- A lot of the Wxx control decks right now are Uro based, and when your deck is built around a card that costs UUGG you really don't want to play more than 1 copy of basic plains. So for a notable subset of "decks that would play CJ" this card is legitimately easier to cast than CJ

- It has a worse effect than CJ vs permanents that cost more than 3 or vs hexproof/tnn. Does the fact that this new card costs only 1-2 mana if it exiles a cheap permanent make up for that? I think likely yes

- 'Decay is probably better because it always costs 2 even against 3 mana permanents and it can't be countered.' Somewhat fair, but how many WXX decks are also GB decks? There aren't UWGB control decks playing decay anymore because without astrolabe the mana doesn't really work. Even if Abzan/Junk decks would rather play decay 100% of the time the card still seems like a good option for Bant/Jeskai/Esper, such that the "no play in legacy" assertion seems wrong to me

[Barook]

No discussion about the new G/W sword? It's a one-card combo with SFM and slots well into D&T's 75 (maybe even better in the Yorion builds due to the extra ramp and amount of ETB targets?). Protection from StP and Uros/Coatls isn't too shabby, either.

It can also give pseudo-vigilance to one of your attackers by blinking it. Worst case scenario would be reequipping the attacker, but at worst, it would be an extra cost of :1: due to the extra land you get.

[Noctalor]

No discussion about the new G/W sword? It's a one-card combo with SFM and slots well into D&T's 75 (maybe even better in the Yorion builds due to the extra ramp and amount of ETB targets?). Protection from StP and Uros/Coatls isn't too shabby, either.

It can also give pseudo-vigilance to one of your attackers by blinking it. Worst case scenario would be reequipping the attacker, but at worst, it would be an extra cost of :1: due to the extra land you get.

tbh disequipping itself seems quite bad, the protections are ok i guess, but sofi still is much better

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Song of Freyalise + Solemnity + Void Mirror is what we call a combo. :laugh:
It's like Karn wish Lattice, only you have to work a lot harder. This card seems like it's mostly for Tomb to counter FoW.

What does this combo do?

[Barook]

tbh disequipping itself seems quite bad, the protections are ok i guess, but sofi still is much better
It's situational. Of course it's bad if your opponent plays removal in response or if it clocks your mana at the start.

SoFI is the gold standard of swords, that goes without saying. But I still think that this one has potential, as it has a chance to give +2 CA without having to rely on your opponent (like Sword of Sinew and Steel or Sword of Feast and Famine), with +1 CA being guaranteed. Protections aside, that alone makes it already alot less situational than the other swords (bar SoFI).

[kombatkiwi]

What does this combo do?

I think they misremembered the name of Ritual of Subdual (instead of Song of Freyalise)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

No discussion about the new G/W sword? It's a one-card combo with SFM and slots well into D&T's 75 (maybe even better in the Yorion builds due to the extra ramp and amount of ETB targets?). Protection from StP and Uros/Coatls isn't too shabby, either.

It can also give pseudo-vigilance to one of your attackers by blinking it. Worst case scenario would be reequipping the attacker, but at worst, it would be an extra cost of :1: due to the extra land you get.

Fun for commander, but I don't think I'm going to pick it up in constructed. Not re-attaching itself is a big drawback.

[Barook]

Not re-attaching itself is a big drawback.
The blinking is optional, though.

For what it's worth, the sword can also provide Landfall triggers (e.g. for Tireless Tracker) and grab basics even under Blood Moon.

[rufus]

... Protections aside, that alone makes it already alot less situational than the other swords (bar SoFI).

How do you feel about Sword of the Animist? How many basics do most legacy decks run these days? This sword seems like it's way more niche than the other ones.

[Barook]

How do you feel about Sword of the Animist? How many basics do most legacy decks run these days? This sword seems like it's way more niche than the other ones.
Less stats, no protections, lands enter tapped, no option to blink your stuff. So it's pretty terrible. Being one mana cheaper (which might not even matter with SFM) and triggering on attack don't compensate for the lack of stuff SoHH provides.

D&T runs like 10+ basics, for example.

[Ronald Deuce]

tbh disequipping itself seems quite bad

This. I guess there's Gilded Drake shenanigans.

[kombatkiwi]

Im just imagining a curve like
Turn 1 mother
Turn 2 thalia
Turn 3 sfm
Turn 4 activate sfm equip to thalia attack

In what universe is the GW sword the one that you actually want here
Pro W is also kind of awkward because now your opp can bolt the thalia and you can't even protect with mother
To me Fire/Ice feels like it would be better almost always

[Barook]

Im just imagining a curve like
Turn 1 mother
Turn 2 thalia
Turn 3 sfm
Turn 4 activate sfm equip to thalia attack

In what universe is the GW sword the one that you actually want here
Pro W is also kind of awkward because now your opp can bolt the thalia and you can't even protect with mother
To me Fire/Ice feels like it would be better almost always
Why would you grab the SoHH without good blink targets in play? Or a GW swords vs a deck that runs Bolt (and probably red creatures)?

[kombatkiwi]

Why would you grab the SoHH without good blink targets in play? Or a GW swords vs a deck that runs Bolt (and probably red creatures)?

Well ok, then the question becomes how many slots in your deck do you have for different equipment
Like are you playing the typical 3 (sofi + jitte + skull) plus this? What kind of config are you imagining

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The blinking is optional, though.

For what it's worth, the sword can also provide Landfall triggers (e.g. for Tireless Tracker) and grab basics even under Blood Moon.

I get that but that's half the sword's appeal, getting to blink your stuff. Not doing it because you need the sword to stay on seems bad when I have other swords whose other modes always work. And the ones who don't are considered unplayable.

[Reeplcheep]

I’m with Kombatkiwi on prismatic.

lots of Bant miracles Players are playing wilt. The desire for a flexible answer that is never dead is there. I’m certain it will replace wilt and return to nature in those decks at least. Against moon Stompy, delver, and lands (if you have flying blockers) it is significantly better. In maverick and death and taxes there is additional Removal in the sideboard which is usually path to exile. In several matchups (ur delver, mirror, moon stompy) not ramping the opponent and the flexibility of it would make it compare favourably.


I also think that it could replace 3feri in the flexible answer Maindeck role. The passive is nice vs combo or control but vs delver I would rather have more 1 mana removal

[Fox]

What does this combo do?

Oh crap lol Ritual of Subdual.

[Barook]

What kind of config are you imagining
Yorion D&T is the most likely candidate, since it should run a high number of ETB creatures anyway and the ramp is relevant to get to Yorion faster. 3/60 or 4/80 comes out roughly the same. They're already running SoFaF, so it could be easily swapped for the #4 equipment as the pro-green sword or become equipment #5 for full color coverage, depending on how things play out.

[kombatkiwi]

Yorion D&T is the most likely candidate, since it should run a high number of ETB creatures anyway and the ramp is relevant to get to Yorion faster. 3/60 or 4/80 comes out roughly the same. They're already running SoFaF, so it could be easily swapped for the #4 equipment as the pro-green sword or become equipment #5 for full color coverage, depending on how things play out.

Doesn't sound unreasonable but it feels kind of commandery / fancy-play-syndrome, idk if there's something better you could be doing

[morgan_coke]

Glad to see the cycling stuff. Wonder if we'll get an updated lightning rift for Modern now. Would be super dope if so, there are definitely the tools to build around if we got a way to deal with PW's and win without combat finally. Probably RWU colors, or WURG.

[Fox]

Garth One-Eye has been printed; methinks we'll finally see Jodah, Archmage Eternal. They're digging deep on the lore names.

[kombatkiwi]

Garth One-Eye has been printed; methinks we'll finally see Jodah, Archmage Eternal. They're digging deep on the lore names.

They already printed a card with that exact name (Jodah, Archmage Eternal) in dominaria didn't they? It's like 1UWR for a 3/3 flying with the fist of suns ability or something

*checks notes* ok it's a 4/3 but I got the rest of it

[Fox]

They already printed a card with that exact name (Jodah, Archmage Eternal) in dominaria didn't they? It's like 1UWR for a 3/3 flying with the fist of suns ability or something

*checks notes* ok it's a 4/3 but I got the rest of it
Yeah....that one doesn't count. That 5c stuff is on-flavor for Mairsil [the guy wearing the Moxen, later known as Lim-Dul]. The only thing they got right is that the Urza colors [UWR], and I guess he did cast Flight one time in the books.

[morgan_coke]

Garth One-Eye has been printed; methinks we'll finally see Jodah, Archmage Eternal. They're digging deep on the lore names.

The tokens he makes better have OG Alpha Art. Especially the dragon. Also, if they print tokens for him, it's a super sneaky way to get a ton of Black Lotus proxies into circulation.

[PirateKing]

The tokens he makes better have OG Alpha Art. Especially the dragon. Also, if they print tokens for him, it's a super sneaky way to get a ton of Black Lotus proxies into circulation.

Sorry to tell you (https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/1397202251735785478)
The precident is BS, they made Llanowar Elf tokens for Llanowar Mentor, but whatever

[morgan_coke]

Sorry to tell you (https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/1397202251735785478)
The precident is BS, they made Llanowar Elf tokens for Llanowar Mentor, but whatever

The internet immediately responding with screenshots that directly countered Aaron's bullshit was a very nice touch.

[H]

Well, he is technically right, none of those have a mana cost, which each of thing spells Grath makes would have since they are being cast.

It's still not a great excuse though.

[Pittplayer]

I’m with Kombatkiwi on prismatic.

lots of Bant miracles Players are playing wilt. The desire for a flexible answer that is never dead is there. I’m certain it will replace wilt and return to nature in those decks at least. Against moon Stompy, delver, and lands (if you have flying blockers) it is significantly better. In maverick and death and taxes there is additional Removal in the sideboard which is usually path to exile. In several matchups (ur delver, mirror, moon stompy) not ramping the opponent and the flexibility of it would make it compare favourably.


I also think that it could replace 3feri in the flexible answer Maindeck role. The passive is nice vs combo or control but vs delver I would rather have more 1 mana removal

They play Wilt because... you can cycle it if it's a dead card........

[Reeplcheep]

They play Wilt because... you can cycle it if it's a dead card........

Your rug midrange opponent played a goyf instead of a library. Is it more efficient to try to cycle into a plow, or just, you know, exile the goyf.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/gristthehungertide.jpg

So this can be fetched with GSZ while being in the library? At least in Paper, because there's no way in hell this is going to work as intended on MTGO.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

And you can reanimate it. Recurring Nightmare?


Anyway what a strange card.

What happens if you play animate dead?

[PirateKing]

I was thinking Unearth, but I guess goofier reanimations could pose interesting Judge test examples :laugh:

[Barook]

Volrath's Stronghold after milling it with Loam? You can also cast it with Cavern set to Insect. :eyebrow: Does it count as two card types for Goyf while being in the GY?

This card is a rules clusterfuck.

[BirdsOfParadise]

And you can reanimate it. Recurring Nightmare?


Anyway what a strange card.

What happens if you play animate dead?
Presumably the same thing that happens when you play Animate Dead on a creature with protection from black, such as Akroma, Angel of Wrath.

Oracle text:


Enchantment — Aura

Enchant creature card in a graveyard

When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it’s on the battlefield, it loses “enchant creature card in a graveyard” and gains “enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead.” Return enchanted creature card to the battlefield under your control and attach Animate Dead to it. When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature’s controller sacrifices it.

Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.


Ruling:
If the creature put onto the battlefield has protection from black—or if the creature can’t legally be enchanted by Animate Dead for another reason—Animate Dead won’t be able to attach to it. It will be put into the graveyard as a state-based action, causing its delayed triggered ability to trigger. When the trigger resolves, if the creature’s still on the battlefield, its controller will sacrifice it.
(2016-06-08)

https://scryfall.com/card/ema/78/animate-dead

Okay, actually that raises a question in my mind, and perhaps this is what HdH_Cthulhu was asking about (in which case I missed their point): What happens with the clause "When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature’s controller sacrifices it" if the creature isn't a creature?

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/chefskiss.jpg

What an odd card.

Edit: Let's say your opponent targets one of your permanents with Abrupt Decay. You kiss it. They have no permanents to AD. What happens now? Would both the original and the copy fizzle since neither you nor your opponent have legal targets?

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/chefskiss.jpg

What an odd card.

Edit: Let's say your opponent targets one of your permanents with Abrupt Decay. You kiss it. They have no permanents to AD. What happens now? Would both the original and the copy fizzle since neither you nor your opponent have legal targets?

Feels like they're throwing a lot of silver border names and concepts in this set.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Presumably the same thing that happens when you play Animate Dead on a creature with protection from black, such as Akroma, Angel of Wrath.

Oracle text:


Ruling:
If the creature put onto the battlefield has protection from black—or if the creature can’t legally be enchanted by Animate Dead for another reason—Animate Dead won’t be able to attach to it. It will be put into the graveyard as a state-based action, causing its delayed triggered ability to trigger. When the trigger resolves, if the creature’s still on the battlefield, its controller will sacrifice it.
(2016-06-08)

https://scryfall.com/card/ema/78/animate-dead

Okay, actually that raises a question in my mind, and perhaps this is what HdH_Cthulhu was asking about (in which case I missed their point): What happens with the clause "When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature’s controller sacrifices it" if the creature isn't a creature?

Animate dead doesn't care if it's not a creature for is trigger. "That creature" just means the card enchanted with animate dead

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/chefskiss.jpg

What an odd card.

Edit: Let's say your opponent targets one of your permanents with Abrupt Decay. You kiss it. They have no permanents to AD. What happens now? Would both the original and the copy fizzle since neither you nor your opponent have legal targets?

I think they intentionally used the term "reselect" instead of "change" because you can only change the target of an object if there's a new legal Target to change it to.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/subtlety.jpg

Here's the blue Evoke creature. Interestingly enough, it can get around the "can't get countered" clause. So the arms race continues.

[Wrath of Pie]

That's not subtle at all.

[Zoid]

Feels like they're throwing a lot of silver border names and concepts in this set.

Yeah the set seems like it started out with concepts for another UN-set but they couldn't come up with punch lines so they made it a normal set.

If this can be real so can Crow Storm:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/chatterstorm.jpg

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah the set seems like it started out with concepts for another UN-set but they couldn't come up with punch lines so they made it a normal set.

If this can be real so can Crow Storm:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/chatterstorm.jpg

Unsets as concepts isn't new.
Look at me, I'm the DCI, rocket powered turbo slug, and the cheese stands alone, for example.

[Pittplayer]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/gristthehungertide.jpg

So this can be fetched with GSZ while being in the library? At least in Paper, because there's no way in hell this is going to work as intended on MTGO.

Unearth, Fiend Artisan, Volrath's Stronghold. Pretty interesting design. In my testing, Grist acts kind of like a bitterblossom effect, but one that can sometimes kill a creature or planeswalker, and rarely but possibly can dome your opp with a drain effect. The fact that you can easily recur Grist with all kinds of effects and tutor for it.. is what makes this card to me pretty interesting. Not top-tier powerful like a Uro, but I can see this getting some fringe play.

[Barook]

New Command cycle?

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/verdantcommand.jpg


Verdant Command
1G
Instant
Choose two:

*Target player creates two tapped 1/1 green squirrel token creatures.

*Counter target loyal ability of a planeswalker.

*Exile target card from a graveyard.

*Target player gains 3 life.
This one is pretty terrible, though.

[Reeplcheep]

green with way better token production than white again lol.

Seems pretty decent in a GW tokens list in modern; raise the alarm saw play in the past and this is way better.

[Mr. Safety]

Anyone else think we'll see an updated Phyrexian Plaguelord with all of these squirrel tokens going around? Wasn't Deranged Hermit/Plaguelord one of the classic combos that created The Rock archetype?

[Noctalor]

Scion of Draco
12
Artifact Creature - Dragon
Domain - This spell costs 2 less to cast for each basic land type among lands you control.

Flying 4/4

Each creature you control gains vigilance if it's white, hexproof if it's blue, lifelink if it's black, first strike if it's red, and trample if it's green.

Fetch into triome, fetch into missing dual, cast this.

is it good enought?

[Mr. Safety]

Got some spicy additions to modern including Zuran Orb and Goblin Bombardment. Legendary Tourach creature as well, a 2/1 for 1B with kicker BB: hymn to tourach when it enters. Honestly, Goblin Bombardment seems like a pretty decent card for a modern archetype, maybe bringing back the Young Pyromancer/Lingering Souls synergy.

[Wrath of Pie]

green with way better token production than white again lol.

Seems pretty decent in a GW tokens list in modern; raise the alarm saw play in the past and this is way better.
Big problem: tokens is dead in Modern as a legitimate archetype.

[Barook]

Tourach also has pro white, if that matters. The tribute to Hymn is a nice touch, but probably too expensive to be really good. Sure, you get a 4/3 pro white in the best case scenario, but it can still die to pretty much everything (except white removal). Being able to Karakas it to Hymn again is also very expensive.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/sylvananthem.jpg

Green gets a significantly better Crusade than white, while Crusade gets banned for stupid reasons? Why is this travesty?

Please don't open up that can of worms again. -Mr. Safety-

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Tourach also has pro white, if that matters. The tribute to Hymn is a nice touch, but probably too expensive to be really good. Sure, you get a 4/3 pro white in the best case scenario, but it can still die to pretty much everything (except white removal). Being able to Karakas it to Hymn again is also very expensive.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/sylvananthem.jpg

Green gets a significantly better Crusade than white, while Crusade gets banned for stupid reasons? Why is this travesty?

First, crusade had already been replaced by honor of the pure.
Second, for people who won't shut up about "politics in magic" you would think you'd be more open to the removal of the card that deals with real life politics.

[Reeplcheep]

Better Vapor snag/delay callback spoiled.

https://i.redd.it/22o7dtkpug171.jpg

Seems very strong in UR delver whose only weakness was big creatures like goyf and knight. With sprite dragon you can easily kill before it comes back.

[Fox]

Better with Teferi passive,, but we'd still just play Plow.

[Mr. Safety]

Better Vapor snag/delay callback spoiled.

https://i.redd.it/22o7dtkpug171.jpg

Seems very strong in UR delver whose only weakness was big creatures like goyf and knight. With sprite dragon you can easily kill before it comes back.

It's also a clean answer to Marit Lage that has better utility against the targets you mentioned (Goyf and Knight.) I really like this card, I think it will see some niche play. I also think it could be better to play on your own creatures than Vapor Snag, simply because you don't have to re-invest the mana to play it and when it enters it has haste.

[Reeplcheep]

There will definitely be some hilarious moments where the delver player forgets about the haste. Maverick player chumps to stay at 2 life, then KOs the delver player with a hasty 12/12

[Fox]

Pretty funny that I can now put some non-dude like Ugin in face-down with Scroll of Fate and flip it with Suspend. Not good, but definitely funny.

[kombatkiwi]

Scion of Draco
12
Artifact Creature - Dragon
Domain - This spell costs 2 less to cast for each basic land type among lands you control.

Flying 4/4

Each creature you control gains vigilance if it's white, hexproof if it's blue, lifelink if it's black, first strike if it's red, and trample if it's green.

Fetch into triome, fetch into missing dual, cast this.

is it good enought?

I think no, because skipping your turn 1 is a pretty big downside in legacy, your deck will be pretty vulnerable to wasteland and the "each creature you control" ability isn't very good.

The blue effect seems by far the best so my bonkers idea is that you could play it in RW painter splashing the BUG triome, because if you have painter out then all your creatures (the 4/4 itself and your welder etc) have hexproof


I also think it could be better to play on your own creatures than Vapor Snag, simply because you don't have to re-invest the mana to play it and when it enters it has haste.
Unfortunately these same aspects also make it worse to use on your opponent's creatures than Vapor Snag, to me it's not so clear cut that this card is an improvement to Unsummon effects

[Reeplcheep]

Unfortunately these same aspects also make it worse to use on your opponent's creatures than Vapor Snag, to me it's not so clear cut that this card is an improvement to Unsummon effects

Presumably the deck using removal on your creatures has a slower clock and more mana than the deck attacking with creatures.

[Barook]

What the fuck is this name?

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/theunderworldcookbook.jpg

There's also a full 10 card cycle of tapped Darksteel lands for each two-color combination:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/razortidebridge.jpg

[morgan_coke]

The name is from the flavor text of an old Unlimited or Revised card, it quotes the Underworld Cookbook.

One of the demon ones that's since been removed from the game iirc.

[Barook]

Imperial Recruiter got a reprint.

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/Imperial-Recruiter-MH2-265.jpg

Other new cards:

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/Tormods-Cryptkeeper-MH2-265.jpg https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/Step-Through-MH2-265.jpg

Wizardcycling for :2: seems pretty good.

[morgan_coke]

I think Liquimetal Torque deserves a mention. It's basically Liquimetal Coating but it also taps for one colorless mana, but in exchange it can't target lands.

Dunno if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not, but it does seem like it's worth looking at.

[Barook]

Blowing up lands is the main appeal of Coating, though. It could give you a critical mass of artifact converters between Karn and Dack to do some really dumb shit, though. Or are there any good repeatable artifact destruction cards?

[Fox]

Blowing up lands is the main appeal of Coating, though. It could give you a critical mass of artifact converters between Karn and Dack to do some really dumb shit, though. Or are there any good repeatable artifact destruction cards?

Gorilla Shaman, Viashino Heretic.

[H]

What the fuck is this name?

https://i.imgur.com/sDkvXwQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bIsI7HK.png

[Pittplayer]

Tourach in Pox builds with Dark Ritual seems pretty good. You have the option of a 2 mana or a 4 mana beater. Pro white is actually super good in legacy, not super powerful like Uro, but a card to consider.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/quironranger.jpg

I like the new art.

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/Disapprove-MH2-265.jpg

Hatebears don't matter anymore... :rolleyes:

[Fox]

Not gonna lie, that Disapprove looks like it's not just applying a debuff to existing things, but that it creates a static rule for the turn. So I guess this draws a card while making Dreadnoughts lol.

[Barook]

Not gonna lie, that Disapprove looks like it's not just applying a debuff to existing things, but that it creates a static rule for the turn. So I guess this draws a card while making Dreadnoughts lol.
Good catch. When you play it EoT of your opponent, you can also jam your own Uro during T3. You lose the draw and the 3 extra life, but hey, the original cast would only replace the Uro you sacrifice anyway. So that's fair game.

Edit: New "Yagw" Will:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/gaeaswill.jpg

Probably abusable with those red spells that allow to cast it.

[Mr. Safety]

Gaea's Will

Suspend 4 - G

Until end of turn, you may plan lands and cast spells from your graveyard. If a card would be put into your graveyard from anywhere this turn, exile that card instead.

(There is no mana value in the upper right hand corner, it's only a suspend card like Hypergenesis)


So is this just bonkers with As Foretold? It seems like it could be abused very easily.

[morgan_coke]

Gaea's Will

Suspend 4 - G

Until end of turn, you may plan lands and cast spells from your graveyard. If a card would be put into your graveyard from anywhere this turn, exile that card instead.

(There is no mana value in the upper right hand corner, it's only a suspend card like Hypergenesis)


So is this just bonkers with As Foretold? It seems like it could be abused very easily.

Don't forget Collected Conjuring and Electrodominance

[Fox]

Meh, just survive 4 turns with a control deck and play 1x Will. It's about all you need to do. Cascade taps you out which makes this pointless and AF is just worse SnT. I'm thinking you just play 1x straight-up or have Burning Wish and a dream.

[Barook]

Don't forget Collected Conjuring and Electrodominance
Taking a closer look at Electrodominance, couldn't it be used as a wincon, too? Generate mana, play it to cast Will, recast all your stuff, generate even more mana, nuke your opponent.

[ReAnimator]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/galvanicrelayp.jpg
Seems like a lot of LED fuelled turn 2 wins.

[Reeplcheep]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/galvanicrelayp.jpg
Seems like a lot of LED fuelled turn 2 wins.

Since it is on your next turn rather than until your next turn, it needs to be storm 5 or better to be a better act on impulse

Can you expound a bit more on the line you r thinking of?

[ReAnimator]

Since it is on your next turn rather than until your next turn, it needs to be storm 5 or better to be a better act on impulse

Can you expound a bit more on the line you r thinking of?


It only needs storm 2 to be a slightly worse Act on Impulse doesn't it?
Then after that it just goes higher and higher, some sort of ruby storm shell could easily support it.
Seems easy to set up really broken turns.

Maybe i'm not thinking this through straight.

[Reeplcheep]

It only needs storm 2 to be a slightly worse Act on Impulse doesn't it?
Then after that it just goes higher and higher, some sort of ruby storm shell could easily support it.
Seems easy to set up really broken turns.

Maybe i'm not thinking this through straight.

In a deck that runs storm kill cons and possibly bonus round having to start over from zero seems like some negative card value.

[ReAnimator]

What if you played things that double the spell?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I really like the design. Is this the first time they use "During your next turn, you may play that card"?

Its the most fixed version of:

Draw a card
Storm.

[H]

What if you played things that double the spell?

But a copy of a Storm spell doesn't really do much, generally speaking, because Storm only trigger when the card is Cast and copes are almost always just placed on the Stack instead (unless specifically worded like Isochron Scepter).

[KobeBryan]

Good catch. When you play it EoT of your opponent, you can also jam your own Uro during T3. You lose the draw and the 3 extra life, but hey, the original cast would only replace the Uro you sacrifice anyway. So that's fair game.

Edit: New "Yagw" Will:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/gaeaswill.jpg

Probably abusable with those red spells that allow to cast it.

Play 4. Play 4 dark rituals

[Clark Kant]

How does an evoked Subtlety interact with Disapprove.

Can I cast Disapprove after the opponents creature/walker is countered in response to the sac trigger to keep the 3/3 flyer.

Going to be very juicy in StifleNought if thats the case.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

You cant!

You may cast this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it enters the battlefield.

So you play it for evoke, then the if triggers, so no time to flash in a dissaprove, it will always trigger!

In dreadnought you cantrip your dissaprove then you cast your nought!

[Clark Kant]

I believe that you can stifle the sacrifice trigger, its a shame if it doesnt work with Disapprove.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I believe that you can stifle the sacrifice trigger, its a shame if it doesnt work with Disapprove.

Correct. The evoke will create two triggers, one to sacrifice, one to bounce a spell. Both will go on the stack at the same time (which is why you can't Disapprove) but will resolve one at a time giving you plenty of time to stifle it.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/svyelungodofseaandsky.jpg


Svyelun, God of Sea and Sky 1UU
Legendary Creature - Merfolk God
If you control two other merfolks, Svyelun, God of Sea and Sky has indestructible.
When Svyelun, God of Sea and Sky attacks, draw a card.
Other merfolk you control have Ward :1:.
3/4

[Zoid]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/svyelungodofseaandsky.jpg

This miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight actually make merfolk playable as tier 3 deck again.

[Fox]

This miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight actually make merfolk playable as tier 3 deck again.

Naw they're still better off playing Paradigm Shift and Thassa.

[Barook]

Scurry Oak infinite combo (https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/1397684893170163719)

So in the best case scenario, in a green stompy deck, you play:

T1:http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/scurryoak.jpg
T2: Ivy Lane Denizen, go off, swing with a comically large Tree

Too slow for normal decks, but with all the accelaration Green Stompy has, it's doable at a feasible speed. Both combo pieces are also GSZable and Allosaurus Sheppard can make the combo counter-proof.

Chalice, 3ball and TKS can be thrown in for further protection.

[morgan_coke]

I think Abundant Harvest will end up being the most consequential card of this set, because now you have 2 colors for cantrip bases, and almost 3:

Blue/X: BS/Ponder

Green/X: AH/GSZ

Red/X: Faithless Looting/??

Like, black and white are still fuxxed, and nothing really compares to counters as an answer to combo, but they are getting there. The easiest way with white would be to make something like Land Tax/Gift of Estates/Tithe work on less than OR equal #'s, instead of just less than. Black, I dunno, make something dumb with lifeloss drawback.

[Zoid]

I think Abundant Harvest will end up being the most consequential card of this set, because now you have 2 colors for cantrip bases, and almost 3:

Blue/X: BS/Ponder

Green/X: AH/GSZ

Red/X: Faithless Looting/??

Like, black and white are still fuxxed, and nothing really compares to counters as an answer to combo, but they are getting there. The easiest way with white would be to make something like Land Tax/Gift of Estates/Tithe work on less than OR equal #'s, instead of just less than. Black, I dunno, make something dumb with lifeloss drawback.

Cling to Dust?

I also think Adventurous Impulse is underrated just because it's a bad Ponder.

Suspend might also be really good since it gives blue a spot removal with some time to find a counter or get rid of something forever with 3feri or if it's a token.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/generalferrousrokiric.jpg


General Ferrous Rokiric
1RW
Legendary Creature - Human Soldier
Hexproof from Monocolored

Whenever you cast a multicolored spell, create a 4/4 red and white Golem artifact creature token.

This guy might be really good just because he got hexproof from monocolored which is a lot of removal and can pack a lot of meat on the board in a short time.

[Hanni]

I think Abundant Harvest will end up being the most consequential card of this set, because now you have 2 colors for cantrip bases, and almost 3:

Blue/X: BS/Ponder

Green/X: AH/GSZ

Red/X: Faithless Looting/??

Like, black and white are still fuxxed, and nothing really compares to counters as an answer to combo, but they are getting there. The easiest way with white would be to make something like Land Tax/Gift of Estates/Tithe work on less than OR equal #'s, instead of just less than. Black, I dunno, make something dumb with lifeloss drawback.

You're forgetting Once Upon a Time, Ancient Stirrings, and Sylvan Library as other strong green options. Green has good cantrips now.

[Clark Kant]

Ignoble Heirarch {G} Creature – Goblin Shaman

Exalted

{T}: Add {B}, {R}, or {G}.

0/1

Hello Nic Fit and Jund players.

[Pittplayer]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/svyelungodofseaandsky.jpg

I want to build Winter Orb Merfolk FTW. This, lords, daze, winter orb..

[Clark Kant]

So I had been testing a deck I dubbed Vaka Nought for the past few weeks that was built around abusing Kroxa and Dreadnought with Stifle and Torpor Orb with a Xerox shell for sometime now with decent success. I was simultaneously testing a more mana hungry bant variant abusing Uro, Sylvan Library, Noble Hierarch and Scroll of Fate to solid results...

Disapprove made we want to test it out in this shell and so far the results are extremely promising.

I am absolutely in love with Disapprove...

Vaka Nought 3.0

4 Stifle
4 Disapprove - proxied up in paper (using my Disallows to proxy for them) for testing

4 Death’s Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Street Wraith
3 Kroxa

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
1 Reanimate
1 Snuff Out
1 Flusterstorm/Force of Negation
1 Expedite/Temur’s Battle Rage
1 Spell Pierce/Drown In the Loch

4 Wasteland
14-15 Lands

A 63 card deck for now, but I find this is the easiest and fastest way to figure out which cards I dislike seeing and want to cut.

Bant Vaka Nought 3.0

15-16 Lands
4 Wasteland

4 Stifle
4 Disapprove

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3-4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Library

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

3-4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4-6 Utility (Currently in the process of alternatively testing Subtlety/Ice-Fang Coatl/Brazen Borrower/Scroll of Fate/Tarmogoyf/Misdirection/Flusterstorm/Spell Snare/Divert/FoN or StP/Teferi or Thoughtseize/Push. The rest of the list is finalized, this one utility slot is the missing piece to perfecting it.)

[ESG]

Scurry Oak infinite combo (https://twitter.com/SaffronOlive/status/1397684893170163719)

So in the best case scenario, in a green stompy deck, you play:

T1:http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/scurryoak.jpg
T2: Ivy Lane Denizen, go off, swing with a comically large Tree

Too slow for normal decks, but with all the accelaration Green Stompy has, it's doable at a feasible speed. Both combo pieces are also GSZable and Allosaurus Sheppard can make the combo counter-proof.

Chalice, 3ball and TKS can be thrown in for further protection.

Kind of interesting. I'd be inclined to run Veil of Summer and Avoid Fate rather than Chalice of the Void.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/ignoblehierarch.jpg

I love this little guy like you wouldn't believe it. It's great to see WotC filling a design hole like that to restore symmetry.

Now give us Sulfur Elemental for blue creatures.


Kind of interesting. I'd be inclined to run Veil of Summer and Avoid Fate rather than Chalice of the Void.
CotV would be better all-purpose disruption. Veil could still be a SB card.

[Reeplcheep]

I want to build Winter Orb Merfolk FTW. This, lords, daze, winter orb..

I don’t like modern horizons since they seem to be making things because people want certain archetypes to be good rather than caring about balance or the colour pie. By itself it’s a better beater than 99% of white 3 drops which is rediculous.

[Reeplcheep]

There are only two white 3 drops with this much power and toughness: Brimaz and Heliod, Sun Crowned.

check it out (https://scryfall.com/search?q=cmc%3D3+c%3Dw+toughness%3E3+power%3E2+-is%3Aflip+-o%3Adefender+-is%3Adfc&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name)

Colour pie and balance only exists for white and black

[kombatkiwi]

Yeah you're right, 1UU 3/4 draw a card when it attacks (not even when it connects?) is already very solid even without the tribal fluff
Pretty strong to have an un-boltable ophidian that doesn't even need to deal combat damage

[rufus]

There are only two white 3 drops with this much power and toughness: Brimaz and Heliod, Sun Crowned.

...

Colour pie and balance only exists for white and black

Dumb pushed card is dumb and pushed, but if you're going to count that way, how many do the other colors have? These days, it seems more like color pie and balance are things of the past, and less of the historic trend of not applying them to blue.

[Reeplcheep]

Dumb pushed card is dumb and pushed, but if you're going to count that way, how many do the other colors have? These days, it seems more like color pie and balance are things of the past, and less of the historic trend of not applying them to blue.

3 mana 3/4s or better without a downside: Brimaz, leatherback baloth, and three recently printed green cards ( Old-Growth Troll,
Steel Leaf Champion,
Thrashing Brontodon )

There are a few more ones in black, blue and green depending on how much of a downside you feel doesn’t matter (ammit eternal, headless skab, love struck beast)

[dte]

3 mana 3/4s or better without a downside: Brimaz, leatherback baloth, and three recently printed green cards ( Old-Growth Troll,
Steel Leaf Champion,
Thrashing Brontodon )

There are a few more ones in black, blue and green depending on how much of a downside you feel doesn’t matter (ammit eternal, headless skab, love struck beast)

In Green you also have Yorvo. And in fairness we should say Tarmogoyf for just 2 is usually 3/4 or better, and is now outclassed.

I am not sure that the balance was good and is now broken: before creatures were very weak compared to spells, this has been re-equilibrated over the last years. Even as colorless, vanilla 3/4 for 3 would not been played today.

Overall I have played quite a bit with piles that are just complete editions, and can say that except for aesthetic and nostalgic purposes (which I do value a lot), the old sets were not very fun, while the new ones are better balanced and more enjoyable as far as the gameplay is concerned.

[Barook]

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/Persist-MH2-265.jpg

The non-legendary clause sucks, but it seems still interesting. Too narrow for Legacy, probably.

[kombatkiwi]

The non-legendary clause sucks, but it seems still interesting. Too narrow for Legacy, probably.

Yeah I think for legacy where you already have animate dead it's probably not going to see play but that feels very pushed for modern

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/constableoftherealm.jpg

A shame this costs 5 mana, since it would be a nice removal engine with Luminarch Aspirant. But as it stands, it becomes too clunky at 5 mana, 3 toughness and returning said creatures.

Edit:
http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/territorialkavu.jpg

Even without Triomes, this can easily be a 4/4 on T2 with two different duals. Dryad can also easily turn it into a 5/5.

Edit #2:
http://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/yavimayacradleofgrowth.jpg

Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
Legendary Land
Each land is a forest in addition to its other types.

Urborg, but with Forests.

[Mr. Safety]

We got Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth that turns all lands into forests. Do we expect a cycle of these? It definitely seems to be useful for modern tron, not sure about legacy eldrazi.

[Reeplcheep]

Cradle of growth seems like you could do some silly things with flagstones in applejacks.

It also seems like an ok one-of in lands to speed up lage combo instead of urborg or ancient tomb.

[Barook]

We got Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth that turns all lands into forests. Do we expect a cycle of these? It definitely seems to be useful for modern tron, not sure about legacy eldrazi.
Better than Urborg to cast OuaT, but worse to cast Dismember in Eldrazi.

Might become a super cycle down the line since this is definitely going to be popular. Right now, with Gaea's Will and now Yavimaya, it's just to mirror iconic/popular Phyrexian cards. Though I wouldn't mind a Plains one for D&T.

Yavimaya allows you to do silly things KotR and Quirion creatures. There's also the Forestwalk Elf lord if you want to be sneaky - Elvish Reclaimer can already fetch Yavimaya.

[rufus]

..
Might become a super cycle down the line since this is definitely going to be popular. Right now, with Gaea's Will and now Yavimaya, it's just to mirror iconic/popular Phyrexian cards. Though I wouldn't mind a Plains one for D&T.
...

A mountain one would be an auto-include in Scapeshift / Valakut combo decks.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Blue one would be best with Carpet of flowers!

Or Sea Serpent for Islandhome!

[Purple Blood]

So how many more Modern Horizons sets will it take until Modern is Legacy - reserved list + fixed versions of broken cards?

Its an imperfect solution but we have to accept the fact that sooner or later paper Legacy will go the way of Vintage.

[ReAnimator]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/ragavannimblepilferer.jpg

Well this looks super strong.

[Purple Blood]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh2/cards/ragavannimblepilferer.jpg

Well this looks super strong.

This and Zurgo have 2 power for 1 mana. Is that enough to make Mox Amber work?

[FTW]

This and Zurgo have 2 power for 1 mana. Is that enough to make Mox Amber work?

Boros BADggro.dek


//Legendary Creatures: 16
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Kytheon
3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

//Other Creatures: 8
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide

//Spells: 12
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast

//Fast Mana: 8
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Amber

//Lands: 16
4 Arid Mesa
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Plateau
2 Mountain
2 Plains


Seems bad.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So how many more Modern Horizons sets will it take until Modern is Legacy - reserved list + fixed versions of broken cards?

Its an imperfect solution but we have to accept the fact that sooner or later paper Legacy will go the way of Vintage.

-1

[Barook]

Well this looks super strong.
It ramps, fixes color and can generate card advantage if you hit a juicy spell. Not too shabby.

[Purple Blood]

Boros BADggro.dek


//Legendary Creatures: 16
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Kytheon
3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

//Other Creatures: 8
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide

//Spells: 12
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Fireblast

//Fast Mana: 8
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Amber

//Lands: 16
4 Arid Mesa
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Plateau
2 Mountain
2 Plains


Seems bad.

Yeah...you don't really get to leverage the Amber and Ragavan ramping in such a low to the ground deck, which is what would be needed to make this work.