D&D (Maybe Better Off) Forgotten Realms Previews

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/gVYwhiD.png
https://i.imgur.com/wDAKt1U.png
https://i.imgur.com/E7CHFjy.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/wun7ihy.png

No idea what is up with the blank cards there though. I guess they are just showing the art and frames?

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/2NMLt6K.png

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://i.imgur.com/wun7ihy.png

No idea what is up with the blank cards there though. I guess they are just showing the art and frames?

Yes. They didn't want to preview beholder but did want us to know that 1st edition monster manual was the showcase frame.

[colo]

Now that is a crossover idea I can get behind :)

[H]

Yes. They didn't want to preview beholder but did want us to know that 1st edition monster manual was the showcase frame.

OK, I was kind of figuring that, but I had the stream on mute.

[PirateKing]

Yes. They didn't want to preview beholder but did want us to know that 1st edition monster manual was the showcase frame.

https://i.redd.it/xs0mku6ln0f21.jpg

Maybe if it was first appearance art I'd be on board

[Reeplcheep]

No one has talked about portable hole. I think this is exactly what white wanted and will be a staple 5th plow for years to come (ala chain lightning in rug)

It’s removal that’s excellent vs off the wall strategies AND delver, giving white decks an effect very close to abrupt decay.
The additional artifact and etb synergies are gravy for bomberman and 3feri decks. Seems to be a crazy mirror breaker for d&t too.

Important cards this hits: exploration, chalice on 0 (important for bomber man), vial, jitter, sylvan library, wishclaw talisman, led, null rod, a hexdrinker that has been leveled up to a 4/4, mox diamond, chrome mox, cursed scroll, utopia sprawl/abundant growth, retrofitted foundry.

Big misses compared to plow: uro, KOTR, Qbeast, delve threats, brazen borrower, etb creatures plus artifact removal, hogaak, vengevine, leovold, Hullbreacher, usually marit lage.

[Barook]

No one has talked about portable hole. I think this is exactly what white wanted and will be a staple 5th plow for years to come (ala chain lightning in rug)

It’s removal that’s excellent vs off the wall strategies AND delver, giving white decks an effect very close to abrupt decay.
The additional artifact and etb synergies are gravy for bomberman and 3feri decks. Seems to be a crazy mirror breaker for d&t too.

Important cards this hits: exploration, chalice on 0 (important for bomber man), vial, jitter, sylvan library, wishclaw talisman, led, null rod, a hexdrinker that has been leveled up to a 4/4, mox diamond, chrome mox, cursed scroll, utopia sprawl/abundant growth, retrofitted foundry.

Big misses compared to plow: uro, KOTR, Qbeast, delve threats, brazen borrower, etb creatures plus artifact removal, hogaak, vengevine, leovold, Hullbreacher, usually marit lage.
There are quite a few relevant misses, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to see regular play in various 75s.

Since it's an artifact, we might see Welder tricks with it as well.

[Barook]

New spoilers:

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/lolthspiderqueenp.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/bruenorbattlehammerp.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/drizztdourdenp.jpg

[Fox]

Ishkanah got quite the upgrade#TheDrowRuleSupreme

[Barook]

New spoilers:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3nzfkfXwAYh3DM?format=png&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3nz9EgWYAMu93R?format=jpg&name=small

The latter is pretty interesting. Against certain decks, it might nuke a good chunk of their library. Flash it back with Snappy and it gets even worse for them.

I'd like to see the math regarding killing certain decks in Legacy with it.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Does Lands even have 20 total mana value?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Does Lands even have 20 total mana value?

Yes

[Barook]

Does Lands even have 20 total mana value?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/lands#online

Current lists have ~37 total mana value in their MD, maybe more after boarding. So two casts are pretty much going to kill them.

[Fox]

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/lands#online

Current lists have ~37 total mana value in their MD, maybe more after boarding. So two casts are pretty much going to kill them.
Someone in R&D needs to realize Power Word Kill is a level 9 spell, and Tasha's Hideous Laughter is a level 1 spell. I think maybe they're a bit confused by the spell power system in D&D.

[Zoid]

Combined with a well placed Surgical, this is pretty good against bot UR and UW robots.
Also, this exiles so it doesn't fuel the opponent instead of traditional mill.
Interestingly, this plays well with Mind Funeral unless you're super unlucky.

[TheAmazingKitchen]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E3nz9EgWYAMu93R?format=jpg&name=small

I'd like to see the math regarding killing certain decks in Legacy with it.

I made a small python script to get some empirical values quickly, here are the average number of cards exiled for some sample decks (assuming Laughter is cast on the full 60 cards deck pre-board, which isn't realistic but should yield a good enough estimate of what you'd get in actual play):

UR Delver (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=31012&d=441322&f=LE): 13.6 cards on average (min: 5, Q1: 11, median: 13, Q3: 16, max: 25)
Lands (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=30925&d=440454&f=LE): 24.8 cards (min: 11, Q1: 22, median: 25, Q3: 28, max: 43)
Elves (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=31038&d=441490&f=LE): 18.14 cards (min: 6, Q1: 15, median: 18, Q3: 22, max: 31)

Sample size is 1000 for each deck.

EDIT: I had made a big mistake in my first script, fixed it.

[morgan_coke]

Mechanics article is up, includes a couple cards, and Dungeons.

EDIT: link to the article https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/adventures-forgotten-realms-mechanics-2021-06-24011

Short version:

there are 3 dungeons, they all exist outside the game and there are no cards that affect progress through them.

They sort of work like Sagas, except sometimes you can pick which ability procs next (like a choice between 2 or 3 options forward), they tic forward every time you "Enter the Dungeon", which is triggered by real cards you play with.

There are several cards with static effects that work once you've "completed a dungeon" i.e. entered the dungeon enough times to make it through the last room.

Once you've completed a dungeon the next time you get an "enter the dungeon" effect you can start a different dungeon or redo the one you were in before.

Most of the effects are very minor, like Scry 1 or Lose/Gain 1 life. The "final room" effects are generally bigger, like make a 4/4, cast a spell for free, etc.

It's a weird mechanic and I'm glad I don't have to do any MTGO programming on it. Don't expect much Legacy impact because it's a self referencing mechanic - you've gotta have a lot of Enter the Dungeon cards to move through to the good stuff quickly, and the early effects are all weak, so don't think it makes much impact on eternal, which is a nice change.

[Reeplcheep]

The actually printed contraptions in black border. The mad lads.

This seems fine unless there is a way to go through the dungeon that is difficult to interact with (say a map artifact with tap and pay 1 to explore)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Is this like a multiple choice saga?

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/dungeonofthemadmage.jpg

[morgan_coke]

Is this like a multiple choice saga?

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/dungeonofthemadmage.jpg

yes, exactly, you can only go forwards, and it ticks every time you "enter the dungeon", but not any other time.

[morgan_coke]

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/c26NodcZsMyz5OI0kf7eL7jv2vY=/0x0:265x370/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:265x370):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22677282/Ellywick_Tumblestrum_EN_main.png

I'm bad at images. Here is a green planeswalker.

[FTW]

https://i.imgur.com/2NMLt6K.png

Hilarious SB card out of Storm vs some type of hate. "Equip to Xantid Swarm, attack for lethal"

Bruenor can equip Kaldra Compleat for 0 mana and attack for 12 trample haste indestructible superdeathtouch

With +1 "Venture into the Dungeon" on a 4-mana planeswalker, it's possible Dungeons may see Legacy play since they basically just mean the +1 ability is modal with many options. If the Dungeon abilities end up being good enough, it may be worth it.

[alphastryk]

With +1 "Venture into the Dungeon" on a 4-mana planeswalker, it's possible Dungeons may see Legacy play since they basically just mean the +1 ability is modal with many options. If the Dungeon abilities end up being good enough, it may be worth it.

I think the Dungeons are worse than that because you can't control the order of the abilities aligns with what you need.

[Ronald Deuce]

Jesus F. Christ, dungeons look awful.

It would be really, really great if they could just take about ten years off from this gimmicky shitgarbage and just flesh out mechanics that actually fit together to form a cohesive game instead of blundering around in the weeds and giving everybody else ticks up the ass.

[FTW]

Depends on what the other Dungeons do. The one above is weak but already gives branching options, where one path is better if you need to defend against opposing creatures and the other is better if you want to be proactive.

+1: Scry 1 is not much worse than what a lot of planeswalkers have as their + ability.

Chunderbucket Pile would probably love that card, even just for the -2: OUAT and +1: marginal value with potential draw fixing. Then again, Chunderbucket Pile is not a real deck.

[Cire]

The other two:

https://media.wizards.com/2021/afr/en_4MqeT8nWd9.png
https://media.wizards.com/2021/afr/en_fZkwUeSE1i.png

[Ronald Deuce]

Depends on what the other Dungeons do. The one above is weak but already gives branching options, where one path is better if you need to defend against opposing creatures and the other is better if you want to be proactive.

+1: Scry 1 is not much worse than what a lot of planeswalkers have as their + ability.

Chunderbucket Pile would probably love that card, even just for the -2: OUAT and +1: marginal value with potential draw fixing. Then again, Chunderbucket Pile is not a real deck.

What bothers me about MtG design in general over the past 15-ish years is the increasing mechanical bloat and the inelegance of how that manifests itself in the form of cards with, idk, nine lines of text and three Rube Goldberg abilities plus "dies to Shock." Also, that rather than revisiting most of these mechanics, the designers either are content to let ones with potential sink beneath the waves (remember Radiance? Nobody else does, either) or to "fix" them rather than developing them, leaving all kinds of vestigial nonsense scattered throughout the game's corpus (Wither, Persist, "Champion an Evil Eye of Orms-by-Gore," "When _____ deals damage, gain that much life ," etc.).

This dungeon shit feels like an exemplar and paragon of that design philosophy. "Hey, it's a dungeon! You know, like [I]Dungeons & Dragons? Our OTHER most popular IP? Yeah! You like to read EVERY POSSIBLE STAT BLOCK WE CAN CHUNDER AT YOU? Now, you can do that on your Maygick cards! Just wait until you see how many chase rares are entirely dependent on this gimmick and won't ever get played again after 2023!"

None of my ire is directed at you, FTW. Just feeling a bit irascible lately.

EDIT:


https://media.wizards.com/2021/afr/en_fZkwUeSE1i.png

And now they're putting card names on the effects different cards have, which IN NO WAY RESEMBLE THE EFFECTS THE ORIGINAL CARDS HAD.

This is worse than Invocation Blood Moon's having a SUN ON IT.

FUCK.

[Cire]

Would anyone want a one mana 1/1 that entered the dungeon? I don’t think any of the first levels are that good - not are the second levels. Maybe a 1/1 for 1 that taps and enters the dungeon?

[Barook]

Is this like a multiple choice saga?

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/dungeonofthemadmage.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc76FBnD-6A

Not using sideboard slots seems potentially dangerous and might be just really stupid design.

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/nadaarselflesspaladin.jpg

Might be cool in some white Stompy decks or with Vial + Karakas. Blink decks could also get alot of value out of it. Lost Mine seems to best one with it.

With ramp, a potential play could be to jam it on T1 for the guaranteed scry to smooth out your next draw.Then you could create a Treasure token on the next turn and play a 4- or even a 5-drop, depending on how many permanent mana sources you have.

[Whoshim]

What sort of shenanigans can be done with the 5th level of the Mad Mage dungeon? (Runestone Caverns: Exile the top two cards of your library. You may play them.) With an instant speed Venture into the Dungeon effect and Brainstorm, you can play any two cards at instant speed. Are there any sorts of silly things to do? It is a ridiculous setup to prepare, but there aren't a lot of effects that allow for instant speed plays like that.

[Mr. Safety]

I don't think the Dungeons are there to slot into typical deck building/play patterns. I think they are designed to create a new type of MtG experience that tries to mimic D&D (go figure...) If someone is playing with Dungeons they are doing so with the express intent of building decks, and the entire game experience, around the Dungeon. These won't slot into Legacy, or any other format, in my opinion. They are there so people can do something different. It's almost like a new format neatly packaged into a few cards. I kind of dig it. Maybe it gives you the option of playing a D&D type of experience without all of the front-loading of character creation and campaign planning.

[rufus]

What sort of shenanigans can be done with the 5th level of the Mad Mage dungeon? (Runestone Caverns: Exile the top two cards of your library. You may play them.) With an instant speed Venture into the Dungeon effect and Brainstorm, you can play any two cards at instant speed. Are there any sorts of silly things to do? It is a ridiculous setup to prepare, but there aren't a lot of effects that allow for instant speed plays like that.

It depends on what kind of "venture into the dungeon" cards there are. If players have to step through the dungeons one spell or one attack at a time, then it's unlikely to be strong, but if they're printing something that allows for more than two "venture into the dungeon" per card per turn, it looks pretty breakable.

The current "words out of 10" design philosophy may also lead to cards that do busted stuff and also venture as a side effect.

[PirateKing]

Based on the cards spoiled with the Mythic rarity being a planeswalker with +1 Venture and the Rare doing Venture on Enter and Attack, I don't think you're going to see better options.
I'd predict any spells to just be reprints of existing spells with an extra 1 to CMC and Venture tacked onto the butt.

Best use seems to be the mostly vanilla white 3/3 for 3 since it'll just do random value things.
Is that good enough? For Legacy I'd say no.

Just another Standard level gimmick.

[Cire]

Based on the cards spoiled with the Mythic rarity being a planeswalker with +1 Venture and the Rare doing Venture on Enter and Attack, I don't think you're going to see better options.
I'd predict any spells to just be reprints of existing spells with an extra 1 to CMC and Venture tacked onto the butt.

Best use seems to be the mostly vanilla white 3/3 for 3 since it'll just do random value things.
Is that good enough? For Legacy I'd say no.

Just another Standard level gimmick.

Agreed.

At best let's say we get a 2 cmc venture. The best "special" is Mad Wizard's Lair so that will be 7 triggers - too many. The next best is probably Cradle of the Death God with 4 triggers.

So at best you'll probably get to do something like this:

1 -
2 - 2cmc venture trigger (each player loses 1 life)
3 - Paladin? venture Trigger (each player loses 2 life)
4 - Attack with Paladin and cast another trigger (each player loses 2 life, get your 4/4 and your paladin makes it a 5/5 now)
5 - Profit?

Meh . . .

I guess - if there are enough cheap ventures which I doubt someone would try to make a deck that can get Mad Wizard's Lair really quick to hard cast Emrakul or something?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'm not sure I like them, but the dungeons do, at least, represent interesting design.

[FTW]

They complicate paper magic by adding yet another layer of physical things to keep track of to maintain the game state.

One thing I like is that they are like planeswalker ults except your progress towards them accumulates across cards. You don't just lose all your progress because the first one got removed.

Like all parasitic mechanics, it'll be interesting if the payoffs are good enough and there are enough playable enablers... otherwise the fad will rotate out with Standard.

[Purple Blood]

They complicate paper magic by adding yet another layer of physical things to keep track of to maintain the game state.

One thing I like is that they are like planeswalker ults except your progress towards them accumulates across cards. You don't just lose all your progress because the first one got removed.

Like all parasitic mechanics, it'll be interesting if the payoffs are good enough and there are enough playable enablers... otherwise the fad will rotate out with Standard.

Yeah. I'm not a big fan of them making mechanics that require separate "cards" (and a second object to place on the card) to keep track of what's going on.

A better Dungeon design would have been something along the lines of a Saga. I would have made Dungeons require conditions to be met by the player to reach the next level in the Dungeon. This would be an actual self-contained card, which didn't require extra tracking and wouldn't be parasitic.

Here's an example:

Dungeon of Fire (1)(R)

(When you complete a level in this Dungeon, add a progress counter. Sacrifice after III.)

Level I: Cast a creature - Deal 1 damage to any target.
Level II: Attack with a creature - Exile the top card of your library, you may play it until end of turn.
Level III: Cast a spell targeting a creature you control - You get an emblem with "Creatures you control get +1/+0 and have haste."

This keeps in line with the flavor of a Dungeon since the player has to actively progress through it and gets a reward for completing it. It also allows the designer to make a Dungeon be anything from very low cost, easy to complete Dungeon that give low-level bonuses to a total build around Dungeon that is hard to complete with massive bonuses e.g. "You win the game" as the final reward. There would also be way more depth of design because you can play around with the mechanic e.g. make a Dungeon where each level has a negative effect on you leading up to a bigger reward (or incentivizing the player to build around those negative effects).

They could still create other cards that get bonuses from completed Dungeons if they wanted to create more synergy but then you get back into the parasitic design territory.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah. I'm not a big fan of them making mechanics that require separate "cards" (and a second object to place on the card) to keep track of what's going on.
So tokens?

[Purple Blood]

So tokens?

You don't actually need a token. Its mostly just cosmetic. Can't say the same for these Dungeon cards. Its just overall a clunky design.

[Zoid]

This set seems more like a supplemental product like planechase, archenemy or explorers of ixalan.
I guess those didn't sell enough so they force everyone to play them now.
I also though they don't want to do parasitic mechanics like energy any more which only work with cards which explicitly refer to the mechanic.
Most likely they'll also bring back quests and make them even more complicated.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

All valid points but I cant help it I like the dungeons. They are fun.

[jmlima]

...I think they are designed to create a new type of MtG experience that tries to mimic D&D (go figure...) ....

Ermmm. Those cards in no way mimic the D&D experience. Look at Dungeoneer for how to mimic the D&D experience with cards. These are just what people come up with when they have no idea where to go next but must do something novel to keep on track with their yearly work objectives.

[Fox]

Manlands guys, get excited! Hall of the Frost Giant and Hall of the Eye Tyrant! Enter untapped when played early, tap for color!

[TheAmazingKitchen]

http://www.mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/minionofthemighty.jpg

This could be fun with a bunch of Ball Lightning-like dudes + some dragons.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/sphereofannihilation.jpg

Karn-fetchable mass removal.

[Tylert]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/sphereofannihilation.jpg

Karn-fetchable mass removal.

Fetchable with Urza's saga and trinket mage also :)
oups, brain fart... mana cost is not 0 or 1

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Fetchable with Urza's saga and trinket mage also :)

XB is not fetchable by saga

[morgan_coke]

Trelassara Mood Dancer makes three cards now that +1/+1 themselves with lifegain. Griffon Aerie is another white payoff for lifegain card, plus there's always the pay 50 life deal 50 damage artifact. Seems like some kind of life deck has a lot more tools to finish off the game once you've got the life total to do it.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Fetchable with Urza's saga and trinket mage also :)
oups, brain fart... mana cost is not 0 or 1


Ok, wait. I stopped playing for a while, but... the CMC is surely 1 if you're fetching it, since it's not on the stack. It's just that X = 0, which you mostly don't need except in rare cases.

Saga can't fetch it because it specifies mana cost 1, not cmc 1. But last I checked, Trinket Mage says cmc 1, so it can fetch it if you want to pop it at 0 or find some way to add counters once it's in play.

Or is my brain also farting?

EDIT: Upon reflection, you probably just meant Saga. Carry on!

[Tylert]

Ok, wait. I stopped playing for a while, but... the CMC is surely 1 if you're fetching it, since it's not on the stack. It's just that X = 0, which you mostly don't need except in rare cases.

Saga can't fetch it because it specifies mana cost 1, not cmc 1. But last I checked, Trinket Mage says cmc 1, so it can fetch it if you want to pop it at 0 or find some way to add counters once it's in play.

Or is my brain also farting?

EDIT: Upon reflection, you probably just meant Saga. Carry on!


Mana value of sphere of anihilation = 1
Mana cost of sphere of anihilation = XB or B (not sure how do you count the X).

So yes, i meant saga could not retrieve it but trinket mage can don't worry.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Mana value of sphere of anihilation = 1
Mana cost of sphere of anihilation = XB or B (not sure how do you count the X).

So yes, i meant saga could not retrieve it but trinket mage can don't worry.

The cost of the card is XB

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/dawnbringercleric1.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/youhearsomethingonwatch.jpg

Whoever thought this kind of formatting is okay deserves to be fired. Those useless ability words are extremely distracting.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/dawnbringercleric1.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/youhearsomethingonwatch.jpg

Whoever thought this kind of formatting is okay deserves to be fired. Those useless ability words are extremely distracting.

Actually they're great and perfect for the DnD flavor.

[Fox]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/dawnbringercleric1.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/youhearsomethingonwatch.jpg

Whoever thought this kind of formatting is okay deserves to be fired. Those useless ability words are extremely distracting.

There's only one reason to fire that person: you don't gain d8+1 life per caster level (max +5).

[Tylert]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/dawnbringercleric1.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/youhearsomethingonwatch.jpg

Whoever thought this kind of formatting is okay deserves to be fired. Those useless ability words are extremely distracting.

I like the templating. very d&d to me...

[ReAnimator]

https://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/wish.jpg

[rufus]

Wish 2R
Sorcery
You may play a card you own from outside the game this turn


That seems like something that will see play in modern combo decks. Not that it matters much, but I'm guessing you don't have to pick the card until you decide to play it either.

[PirateKing]

Wonder why it doesn't exile itself like all the other wishes? Is that part of whatever snazzy acronym design philosophy we're on now?

[Fox]

https://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/wish.jpg

I feel like this can "play" Ancestral Visions for 0.

[Pittplayer]

I feel like this can "play" Ancestral Visions for 0.

And you would be wrong. The same reason you cant play Visions from your hand is the same reason you cant play it from outside the game. What about this card makes you think it somehow gets around casting cost or lack thereof?

[Zoid]

Wonder why it doesn't exile itself like all the other wishes? Is that part of whatever snazzy acronym design philosophy we're on now?

Notably, it also doesn't put the card into your hand, otherwise it would be just a straight up better Death Wish.

[Ronald Deuce]

Whoever thought this kind of formatting is okay deserves to be fired. Those useless ability words are extremely distracting.

This. Almost every card in this set reads like a mistake. Or something a nine-year-old made for a card-creation thread on 4Chan.

[Zoid]

This. Almost every card in this set reads like a mistake. Or something a nine-year-old made for a card-creation thread on 4Chan.

But, but, but ..... tHe fLaVoR !111!!1!

Isn't it amazing how creative absolutely boring cards look if you give it a stupid name that knocks "Didn't say please" out of the park and add random words?
This makes the product which should have been a precon box set like Planechase totally look like a real set.

This might be playable:


1W
Legendary Creature - Gnome Artificer
W, T, Sacrifice an artifact: Search your library for an artifact card whose mana value is equal to the mana value of the sacrificed artifact plus 1, then put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle you library. Activate only as a sorcery.

[Barook]

"Oswald Fiddlebender" 1W
Legendary Creature - Gnome Artificer
W, T, Sacrifice an artifact: Search your library for an artifact card whose mana value is equal to the mana value of the sacrificed artifact plus 1, then put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle you library. Activate only as a sorcery.
2/2
This one is pretty interesting. Not sure where it might find a home (Painter decks maybe?).

[HdH_Cthulhu]

You could fiddle Thought Monitor into... Sphinx of the Steel wind.

For painter it would have been great if you could activate grindstone and search up painter in response! But yah cant!

[Fox]

And you would be wrong. The same reason you cant play Visions from your hand is the same reason you cant play it from outside the game. What about this card makes you think it somehow gets around casting cost or lack thereof?

Forgot that play specifically means "if play -> first attempt to cast -> if cannot be cast, revert to play [i.e. land]."

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I feel like this can "play" Ancestral Visions for 0.

You're still required to pay the costs for the card you'd want to play and visions' cost is still unpayable.
There's some power here in that you have your whole turn to decide what you're going to wish for and that you never reveal it it put it into hand. So if your hand was, say, Wish, LED, and infernal tutor you could still crack the LED after resolving Wish to get hellbent for tutor and use the mana for what you plan to wish for

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This. Almost every card in this set reads like a mistake. Or something a nine-year-old made for a card-creation thread on 4Chan.


But, but, but ..... tHe fLaVoR !111!!1!

Isn't it amazing how creative absolutely boring cards look if you give it a stupid name that knocks "Didn't say please" out of the park and add random words?
This makes the product which should have been a precon box set like Planechase totally look like a real set.
Actually it's good and I apologize that you've become to old for fun.

[Mr. Safety]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/dawnbringercleric1.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/youhearsomethingonwatch.jpg

Whoever thought this kind of formatting is okay deserves to be fired. Those useless ability words are extremely distracting.

They are essentially flavor text, something I think they are going deep into due to the casual nature of D&D as a game. I tend to see the MtG through a strict/competitive lens but there are so many people out there that look at this type of formatting and think it's cool. Part of the charm of D&D is the story that it tells, and you can't deny that these cards tell more of a story than focusing on the actual mechanics. I rather disagree that the person needs to be fired, I think they are doing exactly what the set designers asked of them. Of course it won't resonate with everyone, but I can see the fun factor being pretty high for casual Magic players that also play D&D. (Yes, I know your comment was sarcastic in nature and just trying to convey how much you dislike it, I know you weren't actually saying they deserve to get fired. Right?)

[Mr. Safety]

Actually it's good and I apologize that you've become to old for fun.

Right on, I think it's pretty cool.

[Zoid]

Actually it's good and I apologize that you've become to old for fun.

Get off my god damn lawn!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Get off my god damn lawn!

Everyone has! There's like 10 of you left playing on MTGO

[Zoid]

Everyone has! There's like 10 of you left playing on MTGO

> Implying I still play legacy or would spend money on virtual cardboard :)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

> Implying I still play legacy or would spend money on virtual cardboard :)

*two-legacy-spidermen-pointing-at-each-other*

[Cire]

Thank god we have this dungeon hate piece :laugh:

Keen Ear Sentry 1W
Creature - Human Soldier (Uncommon)
You have hexproof.
Opponents can't venture into the dungeon more than once per turn.
"You're not the first to underestimate me."
2/1

[Ronald Deuce]

They are essentially flavor text, something I think they are going deep into due to the casual nature of D&D as a game. I tend to see the MtG through a strict/competitive lens but there are so many people out there that look at this type of formatting and think it's cool. Part of the charm of D&D is the story that it tells, and you can't deny that these cards tell more of a story than focusing on the actual mechanics. I rather disagree that the person needs to be fired, I think they are doing exactly what the set designers asked of them. Of course it won't resonate with everyone, but I can see the fun factor being pretty high for casual Magic players that also play D&D. (Yes, I know your comment was sarcastic in nature and just trying to convey how much you dislike it, I know you weren't actually saying they deserve to get fired. Right?)

I agree about what they were aiming for, and I also agree that flavor is important, even if I haven't been a big fan of where that's been going during the Jacetice League years. The thing is that they already have formatting and templates for doing this, but they're doing something different that will only serve to confuse people. I can think of at least three alternate ways they could've formatted the cards just off the top of my head:

1) Split cards. Why didn't they do this?
2) Flip cards. Sure, I hate them, but they've already done these enough times that people will probably have an idea of how they work.
3) Regular modal cards with flavor text set under each mode. Sure, it's awkward, but much less than what they did here.

My feelings about those established card templates aren't really relevant: They're doing the same thing these new cards are doing in a way players would find familiar rather than confusing. The first one of these "flavor abilities" I saw looked like a "Spell mastery" or a "Converge" to me. Then I saw another and had to pause to ask myself how many mechanics they were bringing into the set. Then I saw a card with two of them, and each was distinct from any of the others.

That's not good. That's all over the place. And the problem gets worse in multiplayer formats: What's going on when an opponent says, "I cast [mumbles] Cleric, then I'll Divine Intervention." Is it Moon-Blessed Cleric, followed by its triggered ability, "Divine Intervention," or did the person cast some other cleric, then cast Divine Intervention? You know, ANOTHER card that already exists and has a totally different effect from what's printed on the Cleric (cf. "Dissolve" on Gelatinous Cube)? Or is the person casting Moon-Blessed Cleric, then using its ability to tutor for the card Divine Intervention?

Like, ok, I get that there are iconic D&D spells that people who play/have played D&D are reasonably likely to recognize. But there already are MtG cards that do some of the exact things these italicized, ONE-OFF abilities do (cf. Enlightened Tutor), and the template they're using for this "flavor" is already in use for something else. We've already ended up at the stage where there are three different card frames (plus borderless cards, plus "showcases," plus bullshit like the Tetris expedition frames and the Exodia shit from Amonkhet), we've had repeated wording and type changes that appear in Roman-text abilities and italicized abilities, and now we've got non-abilities that are also italicized and BORROW THE NAMES OF CARDS THAT DO TOTALLY UNRELATED THINGS.

So yes, I agree with Barook that someone should get fired. Maybe more than ten people. Anybody who's ever worked in publishing, graphic design, the art world more broadly, or even other unrelated stuff like data entry could've caught this and fixed it using methods Wizards already has at its disposal. It's just an amateur-hour bullshit carnival all around.

EDIT: And this is replacing a core set. Jesus.

[PirateKing]

It took me a few looks as well to figure out what was going on.
My first thought was these would be better served as the "showcase" type of cards from Modern Horizons 2, where they used the flavor text space to print the art direction that produced the sketch.
Like if there was a MTG card that inferred some flavor from the source material, then an especially "D&D" version of the card that was explicitly doing the thing, then you could serve both ends and players would enjoy both.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Y'all act like they haven't done this before
https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/large/front/2/3/239c373a-465c-4cda-9895-624871d8606e.jpg

Or those Will of the Council cards from conspiracy

[Ronald Deuce]

Y'all act like they haven't done this before. . . .
Or those Will of the Council cards from conspiracy

Yes, they have. But a) I've never argued the Khans/Dragons cards were well designed; b) Those are part of a five-card cycle, not . . . however many cards are going to be in Forgotten Realms; c) Each of those cards' modes has the same wording, either "Khans" or "Dragons," rather than a whole bunch of distinct subtitles that each appear on a very small number of cards (or only one); d) The Siege cycle applies immutable changes to permanents rather than representing one-time effects, meaning that using distinct wording actually makes sense in the context of the cards' existing. Wizards started using counters to represent these changes to permanents because it gets difficult to keep track without them; e) Wizards has claimed in the past to be moving toward a more straightforward indication of how cards work so we don't end up with Chains of Mephistopheles-type nonsense, where the Oracle wording breaks its own rules.

I'm not surprised you brought up the Conspiracy cards. This isn't a dig at you, but it appears the templating fooled you, too: "Will of the Council" (and "Tempting Offer," and maybe other stuff) is like the other italicized keywords I mentioned before, not a nickname for a distinct effect that no other card has. There also isn't a distinct, separate card called "Will of the Council" that does something different from the italic effect on that cycle of cards.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yes, they have. But a) I've never argued the Khans/Dragons cards were well designed; b) Those are part of a five-card cycle, not . . . however many cards are going to be in Forgotten Realms; c) Each of those cards' modes has the same wording, either "Khans" or "Dragons," rather than a whole bunch of distinct subtitles that each appear on a very small number of cards (or only one); d) The Siege cycle applies immutable changes to permanents rather than representing one-time effects, meaning that using distinct wording actually makes sense in the context of the cards' existing. Wizards started using counters to represent these changes to permanents because it gets difficult to keep track without them; e) Wizards has claimed in the past to be moving toward a more straightforward indication of how cards work so we don't end up with Chains of Mephistopheles-type nonsense, where the Oracle wording breaks its own rules.

I'm not surprised you brought up the Conspiracy cards. This isn't a dig at you, but it appears the templating fooled you, too: "Will of the Council" (and "Tempting Offer," and maybe other stuff) is like the other italicized keywords I mentioned before, not a nickname for a distinct effect that no other card has. There also isn't a distinct, separate card called "Will of the Council" that does something different from the italic effect on that cycle of cards.

So:
A) :rolleyes:
B) That cycle and others.
C) This isn't true: They're anchor words and there's more than just one set of them
D) That isn't true.
E) Replacing the dot on a modular spell/ability with an italicized word/phrase is still straightforward, and even if you treated it as an ability word it doesn't break oracle because the rules for flavor rules are already here in that there are none because Italic text has never had any rules meaning whatsoever. Which is why Ability words always have to have their condition and meaning written out after them.

[Tylert]

...


Seems like arguing just to argue.
I watched the card, found it funny because of the flavor text that reminded me my youth a bit and proceed to analyze the card and understood directly that i had to choose one of X modes, each mode being clearly described. less than one second total.
If someone mumbles any card with saying explicitely what he chooses when the spell resolves, then it's not a problem of design, it's a problem of a person. speak clearly. and there is no problem. "I cast dawnbringer cleric, choosing cure wounds: I gain 2 life". Hard? hell no. Confusing???? Why? it's not confusing it's an easy template.
I think your underestimating the basic MTG player. If someone reads that card and doesn't know what it does immediately, i doubt highly that it would be interresting to play against.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/grimwanderer.jpg

That's pretty cheap and works with Vial.

Edit: It also works flawlessly with Grief and the other Evoke creatures.

[TsumiBand]

I like the keywords for abilities. Fuck it man. It's cool. Creature abilities with keywords makes it feel like they're casting a spell. We kind of already do this internally, right - if a creature has an ability that can deal 2 damage to a target we tend to say "this creature can Shock a target" or even declaring its ability we'll turn it sideways and say "Shock your Goblin Piledriver". At least the people around here always have. YMMV.

Something about just reading the "cost : effect" formatting has always felt very dry and uninspired to me. Especially when they have a perfectly good format for abilities in actual cards; one thing I've never understood is why the "timing" of abilities is always after all the text when on cards it comes before the effect. A card displays its name at the top, cost in the corner, spell type in the middle, spell effect in the box, and finally at the bottom the stats (if it's a creature).

Abilities could read similarly start-to-end instead of top-to-bottom, idk why they reinvented the wheel for abilities. Like imagine something like "Unearth :2::b: [Sorcery] (reminder text)" or like if Grim Lavamancer said ":r:, exile two cards in your graveyard [Instant]: deal 2 damage to any target". Less text, less RTFC fail, makes abilities read more or less like miniature cards.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I like the keywords for abilities. Fuck it man. It's cool. Creature abilities with keywords makes it feel like they're casting a spell. We kind of already do this internally, right - if a creature has an ability that can deal 2 damage to a target we tend to say "this creature can Shock a target" or even declaring its ability we'll turn it sideways and say "Shock your Goblin Piledriver". At least the people around here always have. YMMV.

Something about just reading the "cost : effect" formatting has always felt very dry and uninspired to me. Especially when they have a perfectly good format for abilities in actual cards; one thing I've never understood is why the "timing" of abilities is always after all the text when on cards it comes before the effect. A card displays its name at the top, cost in the corner, spell type in the middle, spell effect in the box, and finally at the bottom the stats (if it's a creature).

Abilities could read similarly start-to-end instead of top-to-bottom, idk why they reinvented the wheel for abilities. Like imagine something like "Unearth :2::b: [Sorcery] (reminder text)" or like if Grim Lavamancer said ":r:, exile two cards in your graveyard [Instant]: deal 2 damage to any target". Less text, less RTFC fail, makes abilities read more or less like miniature cards.
So one thing I have disliked about the "...when you could play a sorcery" and "...as a sorcery" templating is that there are cards that alter when you could do just that but don't affect these cards. (like Vedalkan Orrey). Also, if you're activating an ability as a sorcery it's a sorcery right and I can Envelop it right? (Nope, because it's sorcery speed not actually a sorcery)
SO I would make a "fast" and a "slow" speed and anything that changed the normal timing would say "Activate slowly" or "This may be played quickly" or whatever was needed to decouple timing for card types.

[Wrath of Pie]

Activate slowly would be a cruel joke for enabling slow play.

[TsumiBand]

So one thing I have disliked about the "...when you could play a sorcery" and "...as a sorcery" templating is that there are cards that alter when you could do just that but don't affect these cards. (like Vedalkan Orrey). Also, if you're activating an ability as a sorcery it's a sorcery right and I can Envelop it right? (Nope, because it's sorcery speed not actually a sorcery)
SO I would make a "fast" and a "slow" speed and anything that changed the normal timing would say "Activate slowly" or "This may be played quickly" or whatever was needed to decouple timing for card types.

Envelop does specifically say "target sorcery spell", so I think that might just be an rtfc players encounter once and hopefully not again.

On the whole though I agree that the timing indicators in this game kinda blow and lead to misunderstandings like the one you're talking about. That's one of those things that I kinda agree with MaRo on, where he suggested that if he could time travel and "fix" a game component it would be to make Instant a super type on cards or something - so you could have "Instant Creature" or "Instant Sorcery" instead of having to give things Flash.

[morgan_coke]

Ok, Orcus is just a freaking stupid card. Mass removal OR mass reanimation that grants haste on a 5/3 flyer for 4+X mana? That's nuts.

[rufus]

Ok, Orcus is just a freaking stupid card. Mass removal OR mass reanimation that grants haste on a 5/3 flyer for 4+X mana? That's nuts.

I doubt it will see any play in modern or older competitive formats. People don't need extra value for extra cost on sweepers, and paying full mana cost for reanimation effects isn't great.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ok, Orcus is just a freaking stupid card. Mass removal OR mass reanimation that grants haste on a 5/3 flyer for 4+X mana? That's nuts.

I think the 4+X cost is prohibitive.

[morgan_coke]

I think the 4+X cost is prohibitive.

I'm less convinced. For six mana that's a 5/3 trample flyer plus a hasty Tarmogoyf or hasty SFM or something. That's a whole lotta value, and doesn't include how strong the modality is. I mean, I wouldn't run 4x in Legacy, but as a 1 of topline threat? If I was in those colors absolutely. I mean, something like Jund with ramp (Ignoble Hierarch) or something it's got a lot of applicability.

Feels like an easy 3x in Modern lists. Even just the base 4 mana double evasion 5/3 body is a pretty decent value.

[Ronald Deuce]

So:
A) :rolleyes:
B) That cycle and others.
C) This isn't true: They're anchor words and there's more than just one set of them
D) That isn't true.
E) Replacing the dot on a modular spell/ability with an italicized word/phrase is still straightforward, and even if you treated it as an ability word it doesn't break oracle because the rules for flavor rules are already here in that there are none because Italic text has never had any rules meaning whatsoever. Which is why Ability words always have to have their condition and meaning written out after them.

Saying that MtG includes multiple cycles throughout its history doesn't address the fact that this set is just word salad. Nobody's saying there aren't other cards or cycles that work in unique ways throughout the game's corpus; I'm saying that this set, specifically, has about eight years' worth of new keywords. Except they're not keywords. Only they're formatted like keywords.

Your response to my point E furthers my criticism of this type of formatting and card design. You don't want to have extraneous text shoehorned into rules/explanatory sections of cards, and it appears they haven't learned from literal decades of trial and error.


Seems like arguing just to argue. . . . If someone mumbles any card with saying explicitely what he chooses when the spell resolves, then it's not a problem of design, it's a problem of a person. speak clearly. and there is no problem. "I cast dawnbringer cleric, choosing cure wounds: I gain 2 life". Hard? hell no. Confusing???? Why? it's not confusing it's an easy template.
I think your underestimating the basic MTG player. If someone reads that card and doesn't know what it does immediately, i doubt highly that it would be interresting to play against.

So I've worked in game design a little bit. One of the most fundamentally important things to do when building a game is to maximize clarity and eliminate ambiguity. Ambiguity causes confusion. You can blame players for getting confused, but that doesn't incentivize them to play the game. And it's up to the game designer to present the game's mechanics clearly and completely but without unnecessary or extraneous (read: distracting) information. As I said above, we've already got a game with multiple widely divergent card frames, with a one-shot card type (which really should've been a supertype: Tribal, anyone?), and errata that totally change the way cards work from what's written on the cards. They're not streamlining or fixing any of this when they just barf a ton of unique information that both looks like rules text even though it isn't and also, at least sometimes, carries the same names as cards that already exist and do entirely different things.

And yeah, maybe I am underestimating the basic MtG player [EDIT: Your words, not mine]. But when you hear people mispronounce "prelate" or "augur" enough times, you start to think that just assuming people will suss out complicated information themselves is a stretch.

The odds are that these cards will play adequately well most of the time. I'm not criticizing the company for producing a non-functioning product, because I don't think it is that. I'm criticizing the company for displaying regressing competence in the design of its product. What are new players going to do when they pick up Forgotten Realms precons (assuming they're even making those)? What will be their impressions of the game? How much of a headache will all the Magic Missiles and Mordekainen's Magnificent Mansions cause, only to actually mean nothing for the play of the game? Will those players' impressions dovetail with what the rest of the game outside this single expansion looks like? No. Emphatically no. That's not the fault of the players, and it's such an easy fix that the fact it wasn't addressed makes the company look dilettantish.

EDIT: Spot the monumental rookie mistake in the recently-spoiled The Deck of Many Things.


Ok, Orcus is just a freaking stupid card. Mass removal OR mass reanimation that grants haste on a 5/3 flyer for 4+X mana? That's nuts.

I'm inclined to think the mana cost is too high for this to be really excellent in Legacy, but I think it'll make waves in other formats, especially Commander. I do think it's worth considering as a sideboard card for Storm because it can put down a curveball threat AND wipe out a bunch of X/1 or X/2 hatebears, but I don't know that that's better than what the deck's already doing, and I don't think what the deck's already doing is good enough in a world with a trillion lockout one-drops, the London mulligan, and All Spells as a competitor. EDIT: And seriously speaking, hitting five or six mana early enough to make it worthwhile is a big ask if you're getting taxed.

[Wrath of Pie]

I can't wait for dice rolling to become the new tournament meta. (I guess judges now have to be dice experts. Sorry, judges.)

[Cire]

https://media.wizards.com/2021/afr/en_UWOmeJUUBV.png

I feel like this is a couple steps away from being a really clever chain of cards . . . .

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/174/702/637607583185017295.png

Plus

https://media.wizards.com/2021/afr/en_NKkPRMjZHM.png

Seems like a terrible combo but a fun one - with each token increasing the chances of better tokens until you get infinite pixies?

[rufus]

...
Seems like a terrible combo but a fun one - with each token increasing the chances of better tokens until you get infinite pixies?

Yep. Roughly 1/7 chance to go infinite. They had to 0-day errata the ability to a "may."

[KobeBryan]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/grimwanderer.jpg

That's pretty cheap and works with Vial.

Edit: It also works flawlessly with Grief and the other Evoke creatures.

This will work well with village rites and archfiend's vessel

[Barook]

This will work well with village rites and archfiend's vessel
There are probably plenty of ways to set this up. Even killing your opponent's creatures - either via a spell or combat.

[Cire]

Yep. Roughly 1/7 chance to go infinite. They had to 0-day errata the ability to a "may."

Hmm is that right - what are the chances for 20 power? Lets say you have the Mage in play and cast Sprite and then attack . . . your first chance is 0.4375 [Using "(A or B) = p(A) + p(B) – p(A and B)" so X = .25+.25-(.25*.25) - do I have that right?] Second chance is .73 (X = .25+.25+.25-(.25*.25*.25)). Repeat 20 times and then multiply them all together? How does that work? By my count once you hit five sprites you are guaranteed a critical so . . . the odds are .4375*.73*.996 or .31 for "infinite". Still too low to base a strategy around but fun to think about.

[KobeBryan]

There are probably plenty of ways to set this up. Even killing your opponent's creatures - either via a spell or combat.

of course...but u wanna net some cards too.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Hmm is that right - what are the chances for 20 power? Lets say you have the Mage in play and cast Sprite and then attack . . . your first chance is 0.4375 [Using "(A or B) = p(A) + p(B) – p(A and B)" so X = .25+.25-(.25*.25) - do I have that right?] Second chance is .73 (X = .25+.25+.25-(.25*.25*.25)). Repeat 20 times and then multiply them all together? How does that work? By my count once you hit five sprites you are guaranteed a critical so . . . the odds are .4375*.73*.996 or .31 for "infinite". Still too low to base a strategy around but fun to think about.
The math is 14% You get to to 20 and once you get there it's less than a couple hundredths of a percent that you cant reach any arbitrary number

[rufus]

Hmm is that right - what are the chances for 20 power?

Getting to 20 is also about 14%. Most of the stopping happens on the first few rolls

FWIW, 15-20 is 6 possibilities out of 20, so the chance to fizzle is in powers of 0.7.

[Vacrix]

Demilich is a playable.

It's Entombable (kinda), discardable, Boltable.. and its basically a Hypnotic Specter for a turn with a Thoughtseize in the bin. The attack trigger + a removal spell looks good as well, play removal lower the cost, then play the removal next turn. Its attack trigger isn't a may. Playing it from the graveyard looks heavy. 4 Instants and/or Sorceries is a lot.

[rufus]

...
4 Instants and/or Sorceries is a lot.

Seems like it could work OK sharing a deck with Arclight Phoenix.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

4x drc
4x ragavan
4x demilitch
4x arclight pheonix
4x faithless looting
4x careful study
4x ponder
4x brainstorm
3x lightning bolt
4x lavadart
4x force
4x dae
12 lands

[Ronald Deuce]

Demilich is a playable.

Yeah. This card and Wish have piqued my interest.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Class cards (enchantments with level up that resemble sagas) are coming.

E:
http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/barbarianclass.jpg

[Cire]

Class cards (enchantments with level up that resemble sagas) are coming.

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/174/741/637608288432947052.png

God do I want a dice deck to work out :laugh:

[morgan_coke]

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/174/741/637608288432947052.png

God do I want a dice deck to work out :laugh:

If only these were coinflips... RIP Mana Clash wins.

[rufus]

...

God do I want a dice deck to work out :laugh:

Barbarian and Pixie Guides is a pretty strong package for improving D20 rolls, but the payoffs are weak, and I won't be surprised if Delina is the only card that can mass produce rolls.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yeah you kinda really need a cantrip that rolls!

Something like an rng Serum Visions.
On the low end 1-7 it just scrys on the high end it draws 2 at 20 Recall!!

[Cire]

Barbarian and Pixie Guides is a pretty strong package for improving D20 rolls, but the payoffs are weak, and I won't be surprised if Delina is the only card that can mass produce rolls.

As I'm terrible at math - what's the percentage for 20 with an attacking Delina and barbarian class and pixie in play?

[Cire]

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/174/750/637608358343173125.png

Are their enough cheap RG legends to make this even sort of worth it?

[the Thin White Duke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/rogueclass.jpg
How about this Rogue Class? The first ability looks worth it by itself if you have some kind of creature-based mill deck.

[Barook]

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/174/750/637608358343173125.png

Are their enough cheap RG legends to make this even sort of worth it?
RG is a weak color combination is general, so no.

But see for yourself if you can find anything worthwhile. (https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&color=+[R]+[G]&type=+[%22Legendary%22]&cmc=+%3C=[4])

[rufus]

How about this Rogue Class? The first ability looks worth it by itself if you have some kind of creature-based mill deck.

How often will that ability do more than - say - Glimpse the Unthinkable?

[rufus]

As I'm terrible at math - what's the percentage for 20 with an attacking Delina and barbarian class and pixie in play?

Approximate chances to go infinite (or hit 20) starting with:

1 pixie: .141
2 pixie: .276
3 pixie: .421
4 pixie: .554
5 pixie: .666
6 pixie: .755
7 pixie: .823
8 pixie: .873

[rufus]

RG is a weak color combination is general, so no.

...

That's not a great search.

For example, Mox Amber is a legendary spell so it will work with Bard, but isn't going to show up in that search.

Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh, Oath of Nissa,Zurgo Bellstriker, and Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer could work with the bard class and don't show up either.

[Cire]

I guess you can do something dumb with Omanth?

1 - Land - Ignoble Hierarch
2 - Land - Bard + Noble Hierarch
3 - Uptick Bard - Oath of Nissa for 4C Omnath or Nivmizet - 4C Omnath for UW (draw a card) + Fetch (Gain 4 life) + Crack Fetch (Get RGUW - so now you have 7 open mana . . .) + cast Nivmizet for 3 (4 open mana) + Stuff your deck with random good multicolored legends that have R or G and CMC = 2 and cast hopefully 4 and hope that's enough gas or threat on board to win the game next round? (or if you can go up to 3 cmc and cast 2-4 such cards)

Best I got at the moment . . . .

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/paladinclass.jpg

Taxing and pump a bit later. Doesn't sound too bad.

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/thebookofexalteddeeds.jpg

There might be some shenanigans with stuff like Mutavault/Changeling creatures. Your Sigarda, if you have the mana, is an ideal target as well since she's hexproof herself and prevents sac effects.

[Cire]

There might be some shenanigans with stuff like Mutavault/Changeling creatures. Your Sigarda, if you have the mana, is an ideal target as well since she's hexproof herself and prevents sac effects.

Clear Eyes Full Hearts Cant Lose

4 Esper Sentinel
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Serra Avenger
1 Solitude
1 Universal Automaton

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
1 Abeyance

4 Exalted Deed
4 Isochron's Scepter
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Mox Diamond
1 Pithing Needle

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mutavault
1 Ancient Den
11 Plains

[Fox]

I like how Paladin goes right into Infect to undermine the creature type change.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I like how Paladin goes right into Infect to undermine the creature type change.

What, you never went east or west?

[Ronald Deuce]

And now there's an enchantment subtype that totally could and should just be "aura."

*eats desk*

Worst set I've ever seen.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

And now there's an enchantment subtype that totally could and should just be "aura."

*eats desk*

Worst set I've ever seen.

If a class should be an aura then nearly all enchantments should be auras.

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5X048QWUAAvW7I?format=jpg&name=small

Being an artifact land makes this rather interesting.

[Fox]

Someone at WotC needs to explain why Fury doesn't have Flash but Mind Rot now also mills 2 and causes 2 life loss. :eek:

[Vacrix]

Fighter Class tutors an equipment to hand, probably the most playable one. It's not quite Stoneforge Mystic tho.

So about the dice mechanic... 1-9, and then 10-20? Thats close enough to 50/50. So 19 times out of 20 its basically the coin flip mechanic, and thats only the cards that have 3 different roll possibilities. Even stranger to me is we already see two non-legendary Krark's Thumb esque effects ie. Pixie Guide, and Barbarian Class.

I like Grim Wanderer, the 1B 5/3 Flash... 2 drop suggests Aether Vial. Its also a Goblin.. but I doubt it will see play there either. At first glance, it seemed like a purely suicide black card, Cabal Therapy. Why play this over other 2 drops? It has Flash is incredible actually. EOT, play a low cmc removal spell, then flash that in. The condition works if the opponents creatures die. The question is.. does the condition push it out of playable.

Wish is better than playable. Probably the best tutor we've gotten in a while. I like that I can play the card from outside the game rather than it goes to hand. Wish for Ad Nauseam, then Infernal Tutor for LED without losing the card.

Grief and Fury are really great. Ive been trying to build something that uses them with Burnt Offering since you can sacrifice them in response to the ETB trigger. 4 mana is on par with Culling the Weak, and 5 is even better, gets to just enough mana for Reforge the Soul. Mausoleum Secrets is another one to look at. Entomb gets to just enough to look for Reanimate or Dark Ritual, and cycling a Street Wraith is +1 creature as well.

Xorn is basically a doubler for Treasure storm. Seems a bit slow tho.

I'm sort of bummed that Dark Elf didn't get its own creature type with a Faerie Fire mechanic, ie. that pink flame that lights up the creature in the underdark so its a target. Still hoping we get a playable Entreri and/or Jarlaxel.



Mox Amber works with Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar.

Valentin, Dean of the Vein is a new one as a 1 drop black creature, tho not nearly as exciting.

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5htIXKWUAIdVKt?format=png&name=small

With something like Aluren, you can infinitely venture into the other two dungeons.

https://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/lostmineofphandelver.jpg

The Dark Pool step should drain your opponent dead before you deck yourself. Although a win via Thassa's Oracle would also be possible while you draw your deck as a back-up plan.

[Reeplcheep]

Someone at WotC needs to explain why Fury doesn't have Flash but Mind Rot now also mills 2 and causes 2 life loss. :eek:

Mind rot is unplayable in everything but slow limited formats, while pyrokenesis is great?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5htIXKWUAIdVKt?format=png&name=small

With something like Aluren, you can infinitely venture into the other two dungeons.

https://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/lostmineofphandelver.jpg

The Dark Pool step should drain your opponent dead before you deck yourself. Although a win via Thassa's Oracle would also be possible while you draw your deck as a back-up plan.

The mad mage dungeon let's you draw the more conventional wincon. Or just make a ton of skeletons.

[Reeplcheep]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/sphereofannihilation.jpg

Karn-fetchable mass removal.

A bit late to the party, but this is very interesting for me.

[morgan_coke]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5htIXKWUAIdVKt?format=png&name=small

With something like Aluren, you can infinitely venture into the other two dungeons.

https://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/lostmineofphandelver.jpg

The Dark Pool step should drain your opponent dead before you deck yourself. Although a win via Thassa's Oracle would also be possible while you draw your deck as a back-up plan.

This takes Aluren down to a 2 card combo. That's the most compact it's ever been. Could very well be good enough as a deck again considering you're in B/G and can just run the rest with disruption. Maybe add blue for counters or something. Or white with Deafening Silence since it doesn't count creatures and means you only ever have to stop one spell to go off uninterrupted.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Stay blue and run rooftop storm as alluren 5-8, lol

[Barook]

Stay blue and run rooftop storm as alluren 5-8, lol
That costs 6 mana, though.


This takes Aluren down to a 2 card combo. That's the most compact it's ever been. Could very well be good enough as a deck again considering you're in B/G and can just run the rest with disruption. Maybe add blue for counters or something. Or white with Deafening Silence since it doesn't count creatures and means you only ever have to stop one spell to go off uninterrupted.
The zombie dies to instant speed removal, disrupting the combo. Having Harpy as back-up is probably necessary.

[Zoid]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/eyeofvecna.jpg

Seems like decent value for all sol_lands.dec

[rufus]

Stay blue and run rooftop storm as alluren 5-8, lol

For full Jank, there's probably a version with Heartless Summoning and dungeon of the mad mage to dig for fast mana.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/eyeofvecna.jpg

Seems like decent value for all sol_lands.dec
It seems decent, but the high amount of life loss seems rather concerning.

[the Thin White Duke]

This looks like a very interesting set (in a vacuum, maybe) and the most refreshing thing is the flavor text. If they're able to fit some on these wall-of-text cards, they're not all just vapid quips. There are some legit old school fantasy friendly quotes. Bravo D&D team.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This looks like a very interesting set (in a vacuum, maybe) and the most refreshing thing is the flavor text. If they're able to fit some on these wall-of-text cards, they're not all just vapid quips. There are some legit old school fantasy friendly quotes. Bravo D&D team.

The flavor words, imo, are a test run for when they do the LOTR and 40k sets

[HdH_Cthulhu]

It seems decent, but the high amount of life loss seems rather concerning.

Yes its 2x with ancient tomb way too much. But idk about Cloudpost decks, you get life back later with Glimmerpost and its a more gradual engine for the early turns when you set everything up...

[Reeplcheep]

Yes its 2x with ancient tomb way too much. But idk about Cloudpost decks, you get life back later with Glimmerpost and its a more gradual engine for the early turns when you set everything up...

12post would rather have candelabra any day of the week though and they aren’t maxed on that.

[morgan_coke]

Pretty sure that would be fighting for slots with Mazemind Tome in a Sol/Post deck, and Tome is just flat out better since it costs the same but has more options and gains you life instead of costing it.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You're not going to convince me it's better than Ichor Wellspring

[rufus]

You're not going to convince me it's better than Ichor Wellspring

Yeah. Eye of Vecna is pretty weak. Does anyone talk about using Arguel's Blood Fast for anything?

[Reeplcheep]

I have tried Treacherous Blessing which is way more powerful in a sol land deck (which usually can win with a single spell) and it still hurts too much.

[Cire]

Stay blue and run rooftop storm as alluren 5-8, lol

I'll be really impressed when someone accelerates into a S&T or Eureka or casts Rector to get Rooftop Storm into play then casts Sidisi, extorting himself to get Acrerak and then venturing into a dungeon for the win. :laugh:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I'll be really impressed when someone accelerates into a S&T or Eureka or casts Rector to get Rooftop Storm into play then casts Sidisi, extorting himself to get Acrerak and then venturing into a dungeon for the win. :laugh:

They should ban it now, really.

[Zoid]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/loyalwarhound.jpg

At least no human but seems good on the draw for D&T.

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/asmodeusthearchfiend.jpg

Oh, look, a fixed Grizzly.

[rufus]

...

At least no human but seems good on the draw for D&T.

Does D&T play Knight of the White Orchid?

[Tylert]

Does D&T play Knight of the White Orchid?

No.

ANd I don't think we'll play the 3/1. not enough impact and 1 toughness...

[Barook]

ANd I don't think we'll play the 3/1. not enough impact and 1 toughness...
The whole "land behind" mechanic white has is garbage and it's typical for WotC that they're pushing it after bringing it back. They still don't know what makes white good.

Just look how good strong the effect of Land Tax can be - and it's basically unplayable. To make the mechanic playable, it would need to be way less conditional, e.g. ETB, put land into hand, if you have less lands, put it onto the battlefield instead. Or just give a Tithe on a stick. A two-mana legendary creature with good combat stats that would put a basic Plains into your hand ETB would be very playable - at worst, duplicates would effectively have Plainscycling, at best you would pull some serious Karakas/Flicker shenanigans.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

The whole "land behind" mechanic white has is garbage and it's typical for WotC that they're pushing it after bringing it back. They still don't know what makes white good.

Just look how good strong the effect of Land Tax can be - and it's basically unplayable. To make the mechanic playable, it would need to be way less conditional, e.g. ETB, put land into hand, if you have less lands, put it onto the battlefield instead. Or just give a Tithe on a stick. A two-mana legendary creature with good combat stats that would put a basic Plains into your hand ETB would be very playable - at worst, duplicates would effectively have Plainscycling, at best you would pull some serious Karakas/Flicker shenanigans.

Also so bad if you play 4+ of this. You can use this effect maybe once every other game. Rest of the cards are dead now. Imagine if you search up a basic plain (probably the most non offensive fairest thing you can do) and the game tells you to STOP!

[kombatkiwi]

Yeah but you're asking this card to be playable in Legacy, the bar is extremely high.

Nobody is complaining that the Dungeon cards aren't playable in legacy or the Learn/Lesson cards from strixhaven aren't playable etc, why is this Tithe mechanic so objectionable in particular?

Knight of the White Orchid was certainly a playable card in Pioneer/Standard for example. It would be so strong for other formats if the 'fail case' just unconditionally added a plains to your hand, and then we would just get more crying from the people who complain that DNT is the only deck that keeps getting new tools every set (or has everyone forgotten that period now that ragavan is the new flavour of the month)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

So just print him at 1ww lol

[Tylert]

Yeah but you're asking this card to be playable in Legacy, the bar is extremely high.



Yeah, because someone asked if we could use it in D&T :)

[TsumiBand]

The whole "land behind" mechanic white has is garbage and it's typical for WotC that they're pushing it after bringing it back. They still don't know what makes white good.

They totally know, they just can't bring themselves to print good White cards without at least one :u: in the corner

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Oh I can totally see them print this in blue with Flash (so you can actually abuse this with fetch lands)

[Wrath of Pie]

Oh I can totally see them print this in blue with Flash (so you can actually abuse this with fetch lands)
Blue would just steal lands equal to the difference.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Blue would just steal lands equal to the difference.

Don't worry, they'll balance it by saying you can't play any more lands this turn

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah but you're asking this card to be playable in Legacy, the bar is extremely high.

Nobody is complaining that the Dungeon cards aren't playable in legacy or the Learn/Lesson cards from strixhaven aren't playable etc, why is this Tithe mechanic so objectionable in particular?

Knight of the White Orchid was certainly a playable card in Pioneer/Standard for example. It would be so strong for other formats if the 'fail case' just unconditionally added a plains to your hand, and then we would just get more crying from the people who complain that DNT is the only deck that keeps getting new tools every set (or has everyone forgotten that period now that ragavan is the new flavour of the month)

I mean this plus like, they’ve been printing a really abnormally high number of Legacy playables ever since War of the Spark, not just in the eternal-insert sets like MH/MH2 but just in Standard-legal sets. How many cards is D&T playing that were printed in the last 30 months? https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/death-taxes-decklist-by-ben-lukas-1178025]This ( [url) was one of the first lists I saw[/url] and it’s running 6 different recent printing cards between main and board. And that’s with only one Esper Sentinel which has to be wrong.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

And like, Magic is 28 years old, pretty sure that puts the average cards that should be showing up from each year in the average decklist, sideboards included, well under 1.

The idea that they're not printing good cards flies in the face of evidence. And recent bannings.

Also a bit terrifying that if I'm doing the math right the chronologically median set at this point is Future Sight

[BirdsOfParadise]

Well, by your reasoning the average number of cards from any given year showing up in any given list should be 75/28 = 2.5 or so (I.e., not less than 1) ... but your point still makes sense with that correction.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, by your reasoning the average number of cards from any given year showing up in any given list should be 75/28 = 2.5 or so (I.e., not less than 1) ... but your point still makes sense with that correction.

No because I said individual cards

[BirdsOfParadise]

I take it you mean differently named cards (to me “individual cards” sounds like you’re counting 4 Llanowar Elves as 4 cards); that is, you’re counting 4 Llanowar Elves + 1 Lightning Bolt as two cards from Alpha? In that case, sorry for the pedantry, I just didn’t follow your wording.

[Barook]

Are the Commander cards part of Forgotten Realms or do they need their own thread?

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/maddeninghex.jpg

This one caught my attention - one mana more expensive than Pillar/Eidolon, but it's one-sided and the potential upside is way higher.

1/6 chance to deal less damage at 1.
1/6 chance to deal equal damage at 2.
2/3 chance to deal higher damage.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Are the Commander cards part of Forgotten Realms or do they need their own thread?

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/maddeninghex.jpg

This one caught my attention - one mana more expensive than Pillar/Eidolon, but it's one-sided and the potential upside is way higher.

1/6 chance to deal less damage at 1.
1/6 chance to deal equal damage at 2.
2/3 chance to deal higher damage.

I think it's pretty good sb card, but I don't really know how burn/big red decks operate.

[Cire]

Are the Commander cards part of Forgotten Realms or do they need their own thread?

http://mythicspoiler.com/dnd/cards/maddeninghex.jpg

This one caught my attention - one mana more expensive than Pillar/Eidolon, but it's one-sided and the potential upside is way higher.

1/6 chance to deal less damage at 1.
1/6 chance to deal equal damage at 2.
2/3 chance to deal higher damage.

Does "another" one of your opponents means it enchants the same player over and over in a one on one game?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Does "another" one of your opponents means it enchants the same player over and over in a one on one game?



I would think that 'another' specifically instructs you to find someone else. Since it can't in 1v1, it just sits there, unattached.

But that's just a guess. It would nerf it substantially, however, and I'm pretty sure that's what Wizards would want.

[H]

I would think that 'another' specifically instructs you to find someone else. Since it can't in 1v1, it just sits there, unattached.

But that's just a guess. It would nerf it substantially, however, and I'm pretty sure that's what Wizards would want.

The release notes are already out (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/adventures-forgotten-realms-release-notes-2021-07-09):

https://i.imgur.com/iGgwad6.png

[rufus]

This is an intriguing card:



Rod of Absorbtion 2U

Artifact

Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery spell, exile it instead of putting it into a graveyard as it resolves.

X, T, Sacrifice Rod of Absorption: You may cast any number of spells from among cards exiled with Rod of Absorption with total mana value X or less without paying their mana costs.


It's probably not viable because the mana has to be paid all at once, but, if I'm reading things right this recycles flashback spells. It's also another way to cast the "suspend only" spells.

[Barook]

This is an intriguing card:

It's probably not viable because the mana has to be paid all at once, but, if I'm reading things right this recycles flashback spells. It's also another way to cast the "suspend only" spells.
You have to cast the Suspend spells first to be able to recycle them, though.

As for mana cost, it might be an interesting option for big mana decks against spell-heavy decks.

[Vacrix]

The most important limit with Rod of Absorption is that the spell has to resolve to be exiled, not just cast. In blue, that seems underwhelming in this format.

However, ‘Whenever a player’ in a 4 pod is quite good if you can cast it early, but not so much in a 1v1 format. Cantrip, Vamp tutor, cantrip, counterspell, board wipe.. lots of value in EDH.

Most interesting to me is that it can exile a counterspell after a counter war, regardless of which player wins it.

One can activate Rod at instant speed, and it actually doesn’t feel like a counter target since it’s recursion. Also it’s blue for Force of Will. Getting to 3 mana before your opponent has already burned 2 cantrips seems rough.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Maybe in something like high tide? Seems powerful but also kinda clucnky...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Maybe in something like high tide? Seems powerful but also kind clucnky...

It's not really any worse than a candelabra is it

[rufus]

Yeah, the card isn't strong enough to see play. It's just interesting.


The most important limit with Rod of Absorption is that the spell has to resolve to be exiled, not just cast. In blue, that seems underwhelming in this format.
...


It occurs to me that that the timing means that it will exile spells puts it on the battlefield, so there's potential synergy with something like Second Sunrise.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah, the card isn't strong enough to see play. It's just interesting.




It occurs to me that that the timing means that it will exile spells puts it on the battlefield, so there's potential synergy with something like Second Sunrise.

It does not: the trigger is when the spell is cast, but doesn't do anything until the spell resolved. The object isn't in the field when the spell is cast it won't replace how it resolves.

[rufus]

It does not: the trigger is when the spell is cast, but doesn't do anything until the spell resolved. The object isn't in the field when the spell is cast it won't replace how it resolves.

Yeah, I misread it. Having it templated as a trigger into a replacement like that seems like unnecessarily complex timing. (Maybe they were worried about strange interactions with Ertai's meddling.)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah, I misread it. Having it templated as a trigger into a replacement like that seems like unnecessarily complex timing. (Maybe they were worried about strange interactions with Ertai's meddling.)

It is kinda silly but it's probably done that way intentionally. You could easily chain warp worlds or the new free warpworld if it didn't.

[Vacrix]

It's not really any worse than a candelabra is it
Candelabra of Tawnos is more efficient as a permanent because it’s a 1 drop and you don’t have to sacrifice it, suggesting it can be played with bounce, perhaps Paradoxical Outcomes and High Tide. Seems like High Tide not being a permanent is too relevant for Candelabra to be played that way.

That or one could play Candelabra in a 12 post list since a lot of the lands enter tapped.

Both Rod and Candelabra are similar though in that each seems to be missing a piece or two that pushes it into playable. Candelabra being 1U cheaper feels easier to include, and one can find Candelabra with Urza’s Saga actually.

My guess is that exiling only sorceries and instants from both graveyards is too narrow to be played as a symmetrical piece as well where it would cut off the opponent from resources for Delve, flashback, recursion, thresh, etc. If it could be played that way though, then it serves multiple purposes rather than being only useful as delayed, super-efficient recursion. I don’t think there are too many pieces that pair with Rod to exile the other card types from the graveyard. It reminds me of Dryad Militant.

EDIT:
Planar Void is a card that I’m surprised sees 0 play in this format despite being quite a nice one drop. Perhaps Shallow Grave and Entomb dodge that too well? It seems so good against any list that wants it’s graveyard for anything. Dredge, Loam, Delve, Threshold, reanimation, recursion, flashback..

With Rod, the spells being exiled upon resolution means you deny graveyards while saving each inst/sorc played. Planar Void suffers tho from being unable to exile what is there already.

Planar Void triggers Tormod, the Descrator perhaps in black stax for Contamination or Smokestack.

[Cire]

Lol https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/mtg-arena-announcements-july-14-2021

:laugh:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Lol https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-digital/mtg-arena-announcements-july-14-2021

:laugh:

Turns out that the LD was a sb card and no one wanted to play the mirror