Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Titans [Archive]

View Full Version : Vaka Nought - A Powerful Brew Abusing Stifle and Dress Down to slam 12/12s and Titans

Clark Kant

05-11-2021, 01:34 AM

Vaka Nought is a unique deck built around Dress Down, Stifle, Dreadnought and either Uro (Bant versions) or Dragon's Rage Channeler, Lazav and Kroxa (Grixis versions) to add resiliency. The deck was in development (and played both Lazav and Uro together alongside Dreadnought) before Dress Down was spoiled but post Dress Down, the list diverged into two very different directions that I like to refer to as Dress Nought and Naked Nought (the Dreadnoughts don't have Uros to back them up).

Despite the strength of Dress Down, the fundamental game plan stayed the same, to disrupt your opponents manabase with Stifle and Wasteland, disrupt their win conditions using Daze, FoW or Dress Down, and win using a Dreadnought and either Uro or Dragon's Rage Channeler (alongside Lazav to abuse the Surveil shenanigans) while they are still rebuilding. Instead of creating a new thread, the existing thread where the preMH2 lists were being discussed was updated with the post MH2 changes. However, there were so many different ways to abuse Dress Down that the deck several different directions.

The newest list that is the current focus of development is...

Vaka Nought - Temur (aka. Dress Naughty)

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Tiaga
1 Snow Covered Island

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
2-3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
1-2 Brazen Borrower
1-2 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 Daze
3-4 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation

Sideboard:
1 Abrade
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Wilt
2 Veil of Summer
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pyroblast
3 Endurance

It's still very early and some of the numbers might need tweaking.

The list looks very similar to Temur Delver but it's a misdirect of sorts. Your opponents will think they are playing vs Delver and will heavily focus on countering or killing DRC/Ragavan asap, and will expect Lightning Bolt and will thus value their life total highly when casting Ad Nauseam or utilizing Sylvan Library. In doing so, your smaller threats really function to draw out removal and counterspells that would have otherwise hit your Dreadnought or Uro. Your smaller threats also all generate pseudo card advantage (DRC's surveil trigger helps you dig for your Dress Downs while filling up your yard for Uro, meanwhile Ragavan makes treasure tokens and lets you cast your opponents cantrips to help dig for combo pieces). They also serve to ping at your opponents life total so that a single swing with either a Dreadnought or a Uro wins the game.

The one weakness with this approach is that the only interaction that you have game one with your opponent's game plan is Daze, Force, Brazen, Stifle, Wasteland and Dress Down (against specific matchups). Postboard, you have quite a bit more interaction with your opponent.

With Dress Down, people seem to miss that you can cast Dress Down at the end of your opponent's turn, and then cast any combination of Dreadnought, or a titan like Uro/Kroxa on your turn in order to get a 12/12 trampler along with a 6/6 titan in one go which means the only way your opponent wins is if they manage to Wrath the board the very next turn (for which you have FoW and Daze and FoN to help protect against). In the Death's Shadow versions of the list, you also abuse the fact that Dress Down turns your lowly 2/2 Death’s Shadow into a game winning 13/13 Shadow for a turn, but Death's Shadow proved to be inferior the Dragon's Rage Channeler + Lazav surveil plan upon further testing, and the current Grixis list looks as below...

Vaka Nought - Grixis (aka. Naked Nought)

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Stifle
3-4 Dress Down

4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1-2 Lazav, the Multifarious
0-2 Kroxa (Can play up 2 Urza's Saga along with utility artifacts instead of Kroxa as they serve a similar role)
1-4 Ragavan (Test Slots)

0-2 Urza's Saga
3-4 Wasteland
1-2 Bloodstained Mire
0-1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

The test slots could instead go to Lighting Bolt or Expressive Iteration or Force of Negation or Flusterstorm or Drown in the Loch or Predordain or Reanimate or Expediate or Temur's Battle Rage or Thud or to a alternative threat such as Death's Shadow or Delver of Secrets or Urza's Saga targets like Soul Guide Lantern or Pithing Needle.

The above lists are the ones that are the current focus of development as both the Bant and Simic versions feel really good where they are right now. BoshNRoll 4-1ed with the Simic list I sent him and I 4-1ed with the Bant list despite running into various mtgo bugs that cost me games. I also sent the list above to BoshNRoll to play the Grixis list through a league as my laptop is no longer allowing me to play mtgo and I wanted to get a video of the Grixis variant up for this thread. I earlier lost a league due to my 10 year old laptop crashing and have run into bugs and lag and connection issues which makes me feel bad about blowing money on MTGO leagues only to lose to technical issues. For now, I have gone back to doing most of my testing in person or in the free mtgo tournament practice rooms for now.

Once the above brews are tested and refined, next on the agenda is put together a BUG (Sultai) list utilzing both Uro and Lazav together alongside maindeck Thoughtseize and Abrupt Decay. It'll be a grindier albeit very powerful list, but I still need to get my hands on some fetches before I can put it together.

Surveil is such an incredibly strong ability and boot strapping it to Channeler and Lazav made it very abusable. Plus the Grixis version is an absolute blast to play.

The Uro version was initially just Simic due to Endurance making the white splash no longer neccesary, but Bant list reemerged due to how rock solid Prismatic Ending ended up being maindeck and how awesome Serenity and Knight of Autumn in the sideboard have been with all the affinity running around post MH2...

Below is the Bant version that I 4-1ed with in spite of technical issues with my computer.

Vaka Nought - Bant (aka. Dress Nought)

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Prismatic Vista
1 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland (was also pleased by a 1 of Urza's Saga here during testing)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Prismatic Ending
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Noble Hierarch (also was pleased with Esper Sentinel and Mother of Runes here in earlier test builds)
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (also tested Teferi3 and a second Sylvan Library here, Library might actually be stronger in this slot but hindsight is 20/20)

Sideboard:
3 Endurance
2 Knight of Autumn
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Serenity
1 Karakas
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Containment Priest
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Mother of Runes
1 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares

Below is the Simic List list I sent to BoshNRoll to play due to my laptop's issues with mtgo, when Dress Down was spoiled.

His 4-1 video is here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8&t=1734s

Vaka Nought - Simic (aka. Naughty Dress)

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Tropical Island
3 Snow Covered Island
2 Snow Covered Forest
1 Urza's Saga

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Sylvan Library
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Brazen Borrower

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Wilt
2 Veil of Summer
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Endurance

I also briefly toyed around with a Death's Shadow based list due to Dress Down temporarily turning Shadow into a 13/13 but eventually abandoned it to build the Grixis list around Surveil, Channeler and Lazav...

Vaka Nought - Shadow (aka. Death Nought)

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Death’s Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Street Wraith
1 Dragon's Rage Channeler
1 Lazav
1 Kroxa

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
3 Ponder
1 Snuff Out/Drown In the Loch/Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation/Expedite/Thud/Temur’s Battle Rage

4 Wasteland
14 Grixis Lands

All the 1 ofs were being tested, and it quickly became clear how broken surveil is in a deck with Dreadnoughts, Cantrips and Lazavs especially when surveil came bootstrapped to an aggressive 1 drop like Channeler.
—————————
The initial thread when created on May 11 and was built around Dreadnought and Uros alongside Noble Hierarchs, MoM's, Scroll of Fates, Torpor Orbs, Hushbringers or Lazav and became defunct when Dress Down was printed. You can skip to page 2 of this thread for pertinent discussion about the Dress Down based lists.

Reeplcheep

05-11-2021, 09:45 AM

Some comments:

You have to decide if you are more of a tap out creature combo deck or a tempo deck with a combo finish.

if you are more of a tempo deck you should probably cut hierarch and mom for more instant speed interaction like plows and spell Pierce.

If you are more of a creature combo deck, you should be playing 4 ouat over preordain and the 1 mana counters. You are a 2 card combo involving 2 creatures, ouat is insane. You also want 4-5 mana dorks. The best sequence your deck can do imo is t1 dork, t2 hush plus dreadnought. Ouat can find any of those three pieces for free; with 4-6 of each piece it should be very consistent.

FTW

05-11-2021, 03:16 PM

Yeah, I agree with Reeplcheep. You should pick a direction.

It seems like you're leaning towards the tempo plan (Xerox, Stifle, Wasteland, Daze). If so then you don't want Hierarch, Mom, or so many Uros (just for curve reasons). The problem is Uro + Stifle is 4 mana and tempo decks don't want many plays at 3-4 mana. You might want an alternate cheap threat, maybe Delver or Hooting Mandrills or Hexdrinker. You probably want 4 StP maindeck.

//Creatures: 14
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Hushbringer
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
1 Veil of Summer
1 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Negation

//Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

If you want to go the creature combo route, then 4 OUAT and 4 Noble Hierarch seems good. But then you won't have room for as much tempo mana denial. Noble Hierarch has a nice interaction with Hushbringer (turn 2 combo and Exalted + Lifelink) so this direction seems fun.

Fox

05-11-2021, 04:22 PM

Let's have mana we can accomplish something with.

Land (22)
4x Misty
4x Vista
5x Island (4x snow)
2x Forest (1x snow)
1x Trop
2x Wasteland
2x Lotus Field
1x Blast Zone
1x Field of the Dead

Dudes (12)
3x Reclaimer
1x Hexdrinker
3x Nought
3x Ice-Fang
2x Uro

PW (4)
2x Nissa of the 5/5s
2x Karn

Spells (17)
4x FoW
2x FoN
4x BS
4x Stifle
3x GSZ

Artifact (2)
2x Scroll of Fate
---
Now this is 57 cards so there is this question about how much you want to invest in Arbor and Mystic Reflection vs a 4th Ice-Fang or Veil or Urza's Saga/other utility land or even maindeck Verdict off Field. Arbor/Reflection in certainly the coolest and most Depths & PW-trolling thing you can do with a Misty Rainforest. I would start at 1x Arbor and 2x Mystic in these last 3 slots, and consider moving to 2x Arbor if this direction tested well.
---
While Ice-Fang is the closest thing UG has to a real kill spell, there is some juggling you have to do, and at the end of the day Verdict off of Field is ultimately something you'll have to resort to to cover the inadequacies of the UG color combo.

Note how everything makes sense in this list and there really isn't anything to disrupt. Stifle works with Lotus. Honest Lotus feeds Uro and/or grows Reclaimers. Reclaimer finds the Lotus. Lotus is a 5/5 hexproof that casts the Nissa that would animate it. Nissa rebuys whatever, including Karn. Karn has the sideboard & exile looping. GSZ & Uro ramp to 7 lands, Reclaimer spams zombros, Karn wishes Crucible.

Dreadnought is just chillin' here saying "this is fine" in a deck that can combo him [or Uro] with cards like Stifle, Scroll, Karn wishes (including Torpor Orb), and Reflection. At no point is there any pressure to make 12/12s, it's just a thing you *can* do.

It should also be noted that Urza's Saga can wish out a Dreadnought, so Reins of Power is technically a wrath spell that can be investigated by switching up a few slots.

Unlike other magical christmasland Urza's Saga brewing ideas, this deck would be fine with 1x. It can tutor it [Reclaimer]. It can actually keep it alive [Stifle the Wasteland]. It can recur it [Nissa/Karn]. All of these things without going out of our way at all...like all you have to do is -1 Blast Zone and it slots in seamlessly.

A UG sideboard should be closer to:
1x Crypt
1-2x Gravestone or Relic or Lantern or Furnace
2x FoV
1-2x utility lands like Karakas or Bog
2-3x Veil
1x Torpor Orb
1x Scroll of Fate
1x Liquimetal Coating
1x Crucible
2x Supreme Verdict or Reins of Power [Wrath]

TheInfamousBearAssassin

05-11-2021, 08:57 PM

I'd like to start with a meta level question.

Dreadstill has had access to Torpor Orb for roughly ten years now. Why does worsening your mana base to make a Torpor Orb that dies to every removal spell, including not just StP but also Punishing Fire, Stomp, a single Jitte activation etc., make it better?

If there's a version of this deck that's worthwhile you would expect it to be built around the fact that Hushbringer is a creature, and not just hoping that that fact incidentally doesn't come up, e.g. maximizing Mother of Runes, Once Upon a Time etc.. At that point you're basically building a Maverick variant, which, doesn't sound terrible honestly, but then do that.

The other obvious meta level concern that has to be pointed out is that uh. Uro just. Doesn't seem good in this deck?

Like, let's consider. Uro does not need to be "broken" because he already sees quite a lot of play because he's already good. This is not because people cheat around his "if he didn't escape" sac clause but because it's just pretty easy to have him escape.

Moreover part of the reason this is the case, and part of the reason he's good, a huge part in fact, is that he has an ETB ability. The life gain + explore is huge. It buys time, it digs you deeper into your deck. Most importantly it means you don't care that much if they StP or just keep Karakas'ing Uro because you're getting ahead still.

But you wouldn't be because you've specifically played cards to make Uro drastically worse until you actually get to untap and swing with him. At which point it's still going to take a number of turns to kill them, if they don't just throw a couple of Goyfs or a Baleful Strix/Icefang in front of him. I mean maybe you stopped them from drawing a card but the thing is that those cards are still really good against you because you're investing very heavily into a couple of creatures that can just die to a deathtouching chump block.

So yeah you can win a lot of games in Legacy playing the standard cantrip/Force base and Stifle/Daze/Wasteland package is hardly an innovation. Throw in any threat with the remaining cards and you can win a lot of games, you could go back and run an old 2007 Thresh list card for card and win a lot of games because those cards have never stopped being good.

But why is this threat package better than anything that already exists?

Again, especially given that this threat package/deck ALREADY existed and has fallen out of favor because it wasn't as efficient as other threat packages? Because the threats are like, utility + standalone instead of being fragile combos that you have to spend resources protecting instead of proactively using the same resources to disrupt your opponent's plans?

Fox

05-11-2021, 11:44 PM

@TheInfamousBearAssassin the reason why is that some 1-card combos allow people to hide deckbuilding flaws. For some reason people thought Stifle'ing their own Uro trigger was good. Take away the DHA, Ice-Fang, Astrolabe, and Oko though and plays like that turn out to be not so good on their own. What's interesting is the bifurcation of realizing Sanctuary target 1-for-1 is trashers, but we're still seeing a lot of this Uro/Stifle stuff.

The reason for that is Uro decks get dismantled by yard hate, so they've convinced themselves that the fix should be to keep it out of the yard. Now why this [Dreadnought stuff] is the response over "side in a Living Wish, side out an Uro b/c you're definitely getting Surgical'd" is anyone's guess. This list at least has Wasteland for Karakas, so they won't turn their Uro into a permanently textless use of 1UG. There is also some fringe scenario out there where enemy Uro value pile doesn't run Plow or Wasteland, so Torpor effect + Karakas will turn keep enemy Uro from ever getting value.

The real question though is why, after jumping through all these unnecessary hoops for Uro, do they routinely side out Dreadnoughts (effectively Surgical'ing half of their card names with text, so the opponent doesn't have to).

Clark Kant

05-15-2021, 04:12 PM

I am having pretty great results with the below list...

Vaka Nought 2.0

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Snow-covered Island

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Kroxa
2 Dark Confidant
2 Bonecrusher Giant

//10 Combo Enablers
4 Stifle
2-3 Lazav, the Multifarious
1-3 Torpor Orb
1-2 Scroll of Fate

Sideboard (work in progress)
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Torpor Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Misdirection/Divert
2 Plague Engineer
4 Leyline of the Void

I am actually having even better results with the Grixis version thanks to how much lower curve it is compared to the Sultai version.

The key to winning with the above list is to know when to press the gas and when to press the breaks. Against combo and control decks, you’re usually better off going slower keeping your mana open your early turns to disrupt your opponents mana development and game plan. Turn 1 Thoughtseize to map out the rest of game is key. But against fast aggro and burn, speed is the key. Your threats will clock hard and will go the distance, you just have to mulligan aggressively and drop them down asap.

The sideboard is in flux but game one always seems to go well. The deck plays so much disruption and pairs it with an incredibly fast clock.

Every card in the deck is very powerful on its own and synergies perfectly with the rest of the deck. Theres so many fantastic cards that I am testing the below spicy options...
Dark Ritual
Hymn to Tourach
Lightning Bolt
Fatal Push
Misdirection
Spell Pierce
Pyroblast
Standstill
Preordain
Reanimate
Hunted Horror
Scroll of Fate
Jace Vyrn’s Prodigy

Once available, some of the Wastelands will be swapped out with Urza’s Saga, which is going to add a few more percentages to the deck's wins.

FTW

05-15-2021, 04:27 PM

@IBA: All great questions. I just responded to OP assuming this was a thing he wanted to do (Hushbringer, Dreadnought, Uro in a tempo shell) and how to make it less bad. But I wouldn't myself play it over a regular tempo deck.

@Fox: That looks like a better use of Nought in a Stifle-Uro deck, but I assumed OP wanted Hushbringer, which forces the mana to be worse. Torpor Orb or no Orb at all (Scroll+Nought) lets you cut white.

Hushbringer dies to a lot but does have different text than Torpor Orb. It also stops dies triggers. Is that relevant in Legacy? Maybe not. Most of the examples in the OP are ETB triggers not dies triggers. Another difference is it is a flying lifelink attacker, which is good paired with Noble Hierarch. So maybe this wants to be in a Maverick deck instead.

@Clark: I see you cut white for Orb. Torpor+Kroxa is probably better than Hushbringer+Uro. If you don't care about the attacks trigger you could also just run Hunted Horror staying in black. It works with Stifle, Torpor and Lazav and then you don't need to play red.

Clark Kant

05-15-2021, 04:42 PM

You guys made some excellent points about how Hushbringers vulnerability to burn is a liability, especially against UR Delver.

My most recent list above plays Torpor Orb instead and fixes all the issues you brought up.

I am open to trying a more Mavericky build as well maxing it out Noble Hierarchs, Mother of Runes and such cards. How would a list like that look. Yes it would clock much faster than traditional Maverick lists. But it would either need room both for Cantrips to put the A and B combo together and room for FoW or Thalia or Thoughtseize or Daze or some other means of distupting the opponent’s game plan

Thats why for a Mavericky style list, I think the better approach to cheating out a giant threat is 4 Natural Order and 2 Progenitus maindeck along with Brainstorm (to shuffle away Progenitus) and FoW (to exile Progenitus and protect Natural Order)

Fox

05-15-2021, 09:01 PM

I think it's pretty hard to defend NO and Progenitus and not be on Elves [where Progenitus can live in the sideboard]. On the other side there is Maverick with GSZ and the build-your-own Progenitus [Hexdrinker]. Playing some blue-based NO-Progenitus pile is likely doing basically the same thing in a less winning way than Maverick or Elves.

Dreadnought itself is a Ux card, not a 3c card [until DRS is unbanned]. If you've dropped Hushbringer, drop white altogether. You don't want to be the pilot running quad-laser Mother of Runes and Hierarch headlong into Plague Engineers while trying to draw past lands and Dreadnought stuff. This kind of thing never ends well.

One important difference between Maverick and Dreadnought is that Maverick plays....let's call it "unreliable" magic. Dreadnought requires the ability to trust its permanents [and spells in hand], because we make long-term plans. Maverick spams easy to kill permanents, plays uber-hard into wraths, and has no stack control [countermagic] to stop bad things from inevitably happening to them. Maverick's brand of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks does not play nicely with having to sit on cards in hand waiting for additional draws to unlock said cards. Things like simple removal, Hierarch, and Mother of Runes do not bring the pilot closer to doing Dreadnought things - but these definitely increase the odds of sitting there and taking turns off while your opponent pulls ahead with some no-skill 1-card combo.

A lot of what I'm seeing in your lists @Clark Kant is a start point where deckbuilding is built upon the assumption that you did the thing; i.e. you made a Dreadnought so you will have Mother of Runes to protect it. The real deckbuilding work of successful Dreadnought is the focus on never losing velocity *before* you are cheating 12/12's into play, while creating situations favorable to 12/12 topdecks. The wincon isn't beating people to death with 12/12s, it's about subverting the rules such that the asymmetry breaks other decks. You make a Torpor Orb effect, you hurt few decks while advancing your plans; you make 2-8 Torpor Orb effects and you've accomplished nothing [other than impeding your own ability to progress the game].

Clark Kant

05-15-2021, 10:53 PM

FTW

05-16-2021, 12:31 PM

@Fox: Looking at that video and some other content, I see what you mean. These decks are winning off the Xerox package but executing the whole Dreadnought+Uro thing poorly. Lazav looks really bad. I don't understand it. It's a 1/3 most of the time. Rarely it can be a 12/12. Somehow that draws appeal. But Scroll of Fate can make 12/12s as easily but also does relevant things the rest of the time. Lazav is so terrible when you don't have the combo.

Torpor Orb + Kroxa looks bad. You lose the ETB trigger on cast and escape, so it's just a vanilla 6/6 unless it turns sideways. Scroll of Fate allows you to cheat it out without having to cancel your own ETB triggers when you want them, seems better than Orbing it.

One positive of Hushbringer is that multiples aren't strictly dead because at least it evasively swings for 2 life points per turn. Multiple Torpor Orb are completely dead.

Maverick doesn't strictly speaking have to be "unreliable" Magic. Once Upon A Time, Green Sun's Zenith, Elvish Reclaimer, Knight of the Reliquary, Sylvan Library and some other cards give it card selection. Most of that is land fixing, which is why I think Marit Lage is the much better fatty to play in Maverick over 12/12s. But Living Wish is also a thing. Conceivably, you could have a Maverick deck with 4 maindeck Hushbringer (meta hate + 2/x lifelink attacker with Exalted) and then just Wish for SB Dreadnought if you want to make a 12/12, without risking any maindeck vulnerabilities. No Stifle or Daze in this plan obviously. This might be the best home for Hushbringer, if one exists. But that might still be worse than using those slots on Maverick-Depths or regular Maverick.

Fox

05-16-2021, 02:34 PM

The thing about Hushbringer is that you don't ever want to cast a Dreadnought into it, b/c you know that Hushbringer is 100% dying to removal while Nought is on the stack. You have to be able to trust the enabler to do its job. Much safer to cast a Nought into a Torpor Orb....but you also know Torpor is useless in multiples...and you have to have answers to Chalice; otherwise all the setup is pointless. This is why we prefer Karn main, Torpor x1 side.

When I talk about Maverick being "unreliable" I'm talking about spamming easy to kill permanents which collectively die to 1 card [wrath]. There is no long-term plan in Maverick other than spamming dudes and hoping it gets there. All of that is fine...but you won't be able to make the deliberate plans Dreadnought requires. The Maverick mindset wants to focus on protecting Nought with Mother of Runes, when it is far more important to focus on always being able to deploy 12/12s.

In terms of Maverick and Hushbringer, it would be an overreaction to their inability to handle Thassa. They won't play fast mana, and Hushbringer as a turn 2 play won't change the fact that they died to Oops, and will still almost certainly lose to DDFT (they'd just counter or Abrade it). Other than that, about the only thing it does is dismantle DnT [if not Plow'd] and *maybe* add some game vs Uro in decks that can't interact with Karakas.

Edit: on Lazav, it failed upon spoiler date. The card did not need to be tested to know the issues that would keep it from being effective. I'm fairly certain I broke down these problems before release date in the Dreadstill thread. [Pg. 191]

Clark Kant

05-17-2021, 02:49 PM

I will plan to keep this post updated with my most current list at all times...

Current List as of 6/4/21

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Snow Covered Island
2 Snow Covered Forest
2 Tropical Island
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
1 Urza's Saga

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Brazen Borrower

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Divert
1 Force of Negation
1 Wilt
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Submerge
1 Veil of Summer
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Endurance

FTW

05-17-2021, 03:18 PM

That does look significantly better with 0 Lazav, 0 Kroxa, 0 Hushbringer, 2 Scroll of Fate, fewer Torpor Orb. It might not be the most synergistic Dreadnought configuration but at least it takes out most of the bad cards and runs mostly good cards. Playing piles of good cards is good enough to win games even if there are minor deckbuilding anti-synergies.

Lazav doesn't copy the ETB trigger which is the best part. Paying 2+2 mana for a 6/6 Kroxa is not that big a deal. Hunted Horror already existed for a long time. Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker are cards if you just want a cheap fatty.

Uro is so good because even if opponent answers it you still gained 3 life, drew a card, and played an extra land. Probably twice if you both cast and escaped it before it was answered. But Lazav + Uro is 2+3 mana to make a 6/6 that skips the ETB trigger and still loses to graveyard hate. It's basically an Uro that Bolted you and made you discard 2 cards (Lazav + the card you didn't draw from Uro ETB). Why pay 3 for that when you could pay UUGG to just make Uro? And what does Lazav do all the times you don't have Uro or Dreadnought?

Clark Kant

05-17-2021, 03:29 PM

You don't lose the etb trigger with Lazav. You can cast Uro/kroxa to get the etb benefit then copy them with Lazav and swing with Lazav to get the trigger again.

Lazav’s strength is that its a combo piece that can also essentially reanimate creatures that your opponent already killed, which is excellent against removal heavy decks.

I only I want 4 Stifle and 6 other slots devoted to some combination of Scroll of Fate, Torpor Orb and Lazav but I cant determine which should have more slots, all are awesome in their own way.

1-2 Scroll of Fate - Slow but great midgame at turning extra lands and Dazes into 2/2s.

1-3 Torpor Orb - Beats a ton of decks on its own, requires the least mana to combo, plop it down once and its useful all game. Right now am trying 1 Orb maindeck and 2 more in the sideboard to swap in swapping out Scroll of Fate versus fast decks and against decks like Death Taxes, Maverick, Goblins, Baleful Snapcaster lists etc where Torpor Orb serves as a solid hate piece as well as a combo enabler.

2-3 Lazav - Not only enables the combo but reanimates any Dreadnoughts or Kroxas that your opponent managed to kill earlier. Its essentially a one card combo midgame as you usually already have a Dreadnoght or Kroxa in your yard by then. Its even solid when used to copy a Dark Confidant or Bonecrusher Giant in your yard. Even just as a 1/3 it has value at stopping Goblin Lackeys, Confidants, Young Pyromancers, Snapcasters, Thalias and similar threats from being able to attack you.

4 Stifle - Super versatile, amazing against storm, I use them as 1cc sinkhole on turn one/two whenever I get the opportunity since the deck has 9 other cards that enable the combo and plenty of cantrips to find them

Lazav and Scroll of Fate shine in a slower more controllish build. That's why they show up alongside Uro is 5-0 lists.

Torpor Orb is faster, needs less mana and disrupts your opponents etb triggers which is amazing against the majority of the legacy deck that feature etb effects. Due to needing less mana, it shines in fast aggressive builds, especially if paired with Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize (to clear out your opponents removal) and Kroxa (you can use Ritual mana to cast it alongside torpor orb on turn 2, or to both cast and escape it the same turn). But Orb sucks against opposing Uros if youre not playing removal and Karakas.

Clark Kant

05-26-2021, 10:34 PM

I was having excellent results testing Death’s Shadow as the last threat in a Dreadnought Kroxa list, but Disallow and its synergy with Death’s Shadow, Kroxa and Dreadnought has now made this the central focus of Vaka Nought...

You cast a Disapprove during your opponents end of turn step, draw a card, then next turn either cast a 1 mana Dreadnought or 2 mana Kroxa that you wont need to sac or swing (Stifle does this too) or swing with a 13/13 Death’s Shadow (that you have mana to cast a Temur’s Battle Rage or a haste card on).

This is where I am ending up with the Vaka Nought list I was trying...

4 Stifle
4 Disapprove - proxied up in paper (using my Disallows to proxy for them) for testing with excellent results

4 Death’s Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Street Wraith
3 Kroxa

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
1 Reanimate
1 Snuff Out
1 Flusterstorm/Force of Negation
1 Expedite/Temur’s Battle Rage
1 Spell Pierce/Drown In the Loch

4 Wasteland
14-15 Lands

A 63 card deck for now, but I find this is the easiest and fastest way to figure out which cards I dislike seeing and want to cut.

Bant Vaka Nought 3.0

15-16 Lands
4 Wasteland

4 Stifle
4 Disapprove

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3-4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Library

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

3-4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4-6 Utility (Currently in the process of alternatively testing Subtlety/Ice-Fang Coatl/Brazen Borrower/Scroll of Fate/Tarmogoyf/Misdirection/Flusterstorm/Spell Snare/Divert/FoN or StP/Teferi or Thoughtseize/Push. The rest of the list is finalized, this one utility slot is the missing piece to perfecting it.)

Clark Kant

05-29-2021, 09:50 AM

Disapproves was translated to english as Dress Down but the card is awesome in testing.

The list remains the same...

Vaka Nought 3.0

15-16 U/G Lands with atleast 1 Urza’s Saga
4 Wasteland

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Library
1 Force of Negation/Misdirection/Divert/Flusterstorm/Spell Snare

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Subtlety (Flex Slot, could instead be Ice-Fang Coatl/Brazen Borrower/Standstill/Jace or Tarmogoyf)

It's absolutely fantastic. I highly highly recommend testing the Vaka Nought build above (in paper using something else in place of Dress Down and Subtlety)

The only card I am not 100% sure about yet is Subtlety. I am really looking forward to further testing Subtlety in that utility slot. The blue count is more than sufficient. There are situations where evoking a Subtlety during a turn that you have a Dress Down on the board just to get a 3/3 flyer might be useful. I anticipate that Subtlety and Noble Hierarch will be key to this strategy if Sudden Edict sees a lot of play next month.

Clark Kant

05-30-2021, 06:09 AM

I think I really like Esper Sentinel in that flex slot above. Its a huge removal/counter magnet and makes your later threats more likely to stick.

Clark Kant

06-02-2021, 01:30 PM

I am testing various iterations of Vaka Nought that all start either...

4 Deaths Shadow
4 Dreadnought
1-3 Kroxa
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
+
Xerox Shell

Or...

4 Dreadnought
4 Uro
1-3 Hierarch/Tarmogoyf/Snapcaster/Subtlety/Brazen B
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
1 Urza’s Saga
+
Xerox Shell

And every iteration has been extremely promising. Just waiting on MTGO so that I can test these decks outside my guantlet, but I’m feeling pretty damn good about the list I landed on this weekend...

Current List as of 6/1/21

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Tropical Island
3 Snow Covered Island
2 Snow Covered Forest
1 Urza's Saga

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Sylvan Library
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Brazen Borrower

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Wilt
2 Veil of Summer
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Endurance

Mr. Safety

06-02-2021, 02:39 PM

Double check the ruling on Death's Shadow and Dress Down...I don't think you get a permanent 13/13, I think it only lasts until Dress Down leaves the battlefield.

Fox

06-02-2021, 03:23 PM

Double check the ruling on Death's Shadow and Dress Down...I don't think you get a permanent 13/13, I think it only lasts until Dress Down leaves the battlefield.

Correct. It works exactly like Humility, except things aren't 1/1s.

FTW

06-02-2021, 05:01 PM

1U - Flash - Attacker becomes 13/13. Draw a card.

This is not a terrible mode for a card you already want to play for other reasons. The fail case is trading 2-for-2 (removal) or 1-for-1 (counter).

Clark Kant

06-02-2021, 05:03 PM

Double check the ruling on Death's Shadow and Dress Down...I don't think you get a permanent 13/13, I think it only lasts until Dress Down leaves the battlefield.

Of course. But a surprise 13/13 is quite good on occasion, especially if you also cast a 12/12 or a titan that same turn ensuring your opponent must have multiple pieces of interaction or will die by next turn.

Fox

06-02-2021, 05:07 PM

Of course. But a surprise 13/13 is quite good on occasion, especially if you also cast a 12/12 or a titan that same turn ensuring your opponent must have multiple pieces of interaction or will die by next turn.

It's not really the damage-surprise factor that matters. It's the "lol you lost deathtouch and your Strix/Ice-Fang, and I draw a card, and [insert dude] survives" factor.

^This is what you really care about, as it's a 2-for-none (they lose a thing and they have to lose another card to kill your guy. Your hand size stays the same).

FTW

06-02-2021, 05:09 PM

It's not really the damage-surprise factor that matters. It's the "lol you lost deathtouch and your Strix/Ice-Fang, and I draw a card, and [insert dude] survives" factor.

These are just additionally useful modes. The card has many useful modes. Unlocking Dreadnoughts, nullifying the opponent's creatures, etc. "1U Win the game" is just another useful mode when opponent is below 14 life and didn't block.

Edit: Say both you and opponent are at 10 life. You attack with 3/3 Shadow. You have 2 mana open. What does opponent do? Opponent has to play around Dress Down or risks losing the game right here. They can't let the 3/3 through. They have to flash in Ice-Fang to block, or they block with something and activate Mother of Runes, or they chump block with something else. The problem is these scenarios are also bad for the opponent if you flash in Dress Down, walking into 2-for-0s and such. Or maybe you don't have Dress Down at all but they still frantically burn cantrips looking for an answer. These are all favorable positions to be in. Whereas you can't force the opponent into this corner without the threat of a 1-hit kill. When your 1-hit kill combo fail case is a 2-for-2 the downside is low.

Clark Kant

06-02-2021, 09:33 PM

These are just additionally useful modes. The card has many useful modes. Unlocking Dreadnoughts, nullifying the opponent's creatures, etc. "1U Win the game" is just another useful mode when opponent is below 14 life and didn't block.

Edit: Say both you and opponent are at 10 life. You attack with 3/3 Shadow. You have 2 mana open. What does opponent do? Opponent has to play around Dress Down or risks losing the game right here. They can't let the 3/3 through. They have to flash in Ice-Fang to block, or they block with something and activate Mother of Runes, or they chump block with something else. The problem is these scenarios are also bad for the opponent if you flash in Dress Down, walking into 2-for-0s and such. Or maybe you don't have Dress Down at all but they still frantically burn cantrips looking for an answer. These are all favorable positions to be in. Whereas you can't force the opponent into this corner without the threat of a 1-hit kill. When your 1-hit kill combo fail case is a 2-for-2 the downside is low.

Very well said. You explained this better I could.

Clark Kant

06-03-2021, 03:52 PM

The main deck does not need or benefit too much from splashing white. Teferi3 is nice but not essential, and sticking UG lets me play around Wasteland much easier.

I initially played white because the color opened up so many great options for the sideboard (Rest in Peace and Karakas most significantly), however, between the utility offered by Urza's Saga allowing me to grab my maindeck Pithing Needle (in the flex slot currently) or my sideboard 1 mana artifact silver bullets, and the excellent graveyard hate offer by Endurance (green's Leyline of the Void), there is no longer any advantage to splashing white.

My current list after a long day testing various iterations on MTGO looks as below...

4 Wasteland

4 Misty Rainforest

3 Prismatic Vista

3 Tropical Island

3 Snow-Covered Island

2 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Stifle

4 Dress Down

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

2 Noble Hierarch

2 Ice-Fang Coatl

2 Brazen Borrower

1 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

1 Force of Negation

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm

1 Blue Elemental Blast

1 Force of Negation

1 Brazen Borrower

1 Wilt

1 Sylvan Safekeeper

2 Veil of Summer

2 Collector Ouphe

2 Carpet of Flowers

3 Endurance

The list is now final (though the sideboard may change once I see how the meta evolves due to MH2). The sideboard is full of silver bullets because the maindeck itself is very tight, so you will often find yourself not wanting to side too much out. The sideboard cards are self explanatory (Brazen Borrower is the MVP vs Marit Lage strategies).

Dress Down and Endurance are both phenomenal cards. Endurance is fantastic against various combo lists and against u/r Delver as well. It is a flash creature that profitably blocks Delver, Channeler, Ragavan, Whale and survives, while simultaneously emptying their graveyard to shrink their Goyfs, neuter their Snapcasters and make their Delve cards much harder to cast. When brought in versus fast combo decks, it should be sided in along with Collector Ouphe, Veil of Summer, Wilt and either Sylvan Safekeeper or Carpet of Flowers (if they play islands) to ensure that the list has atleast 14 green cards (along with instant speed Brainstorms to find them) to pitch to Endurance when needed. But against Delver, the evoke mode is almost never needed.

Dress Down is absolutely incredible in it's utility. Most games you will want to cast it during your opponent's end step to draw a card, and plop down multiple Dreadnoughts and/or Uros. But the card has more important uses against Thassa's Oracle based strategies.

This may well be the list that finally gets Uro banned in legacy. It absolutely is the list that will make Dreadnought a mainstream player in the format. The deck really is that strong, and I look forward to many other legacy players discovering this for themselves.

FTW

06-08-2021, 11:57 PM

How's the deck doing? Any MTGO League 5-0s yet? Thinking of entering the next Challenge?

Fox

06-09-2021, 06:07 AM

This may well be the list that finally gets Uro banned in legacy. It absolutely is the list that will make Dreadnought a mainstream player in the format. The deck really is that strong, and I look forward to many other legacy players discovering this for themselves.

So uh, Uro by itself as a 1-card combo with recursion - that is technically enough to get Uro banned. That it has limited crossover with Dreadnought doesn't change the assessment of Uro. Dreadnought, and Standstill, decks are not mainstream players because more than anything else, we don't have pilots. We lost all of them in early 2012, and they're not coming back; not even if your list has the card (Uro) that they're all using now. Right at this moment, most of the lost pilots are likely playing UR Delver, but once they get tired of losing to someone playing normal Uro deck [plus or minus the coming Ragavan or Daze ban] they will themselves return to normal Uro deck until a better 1-card combo is printed.

There is very little risk involved in having a stack of counters, kill spells, recursion, and few slots of a 1-card combo wincon. This fraction of players isn't going to come back to specialize on a deck with higher power plus higher variance, not even if the Stifle effect cantrips. What you should expect though, given that those jokers put Torpor Orb in the SBs of Uro piles, is that if Endurance fails to save them vs Thassa, they will just SB Dress Down in their Uro pile.

If we're being honest about the style of your list, your target pilot is someone who plays maverick-style decks. This is a notoriously hard demographic to headhunt pilots from, as these players often do not have blue dual lands in paper. You do have this timing window where the 4x Trop owners just got their deck ended by the rules update [Infect], but you have a play pattern mismatch, and are unlikely to generate lasting interest here.

FTW

06-09-2021, 11:45 AM

There is very little risk involved in having a stack of counters, kill spells, recursion, and few slots of a 1-card combo wincon. This fraction of players isn't going to come back to specialize on a deck with higher power plus higher variance, not even if the Stifle effect cantrips. What you should expect though, given that those jokers put Torpor Orb in the SBs of Uro piles, is that if Endurance fails to save them vs Thassa, they will just SB Dress Down in their Uro pile.

This.

NotVaka.dec will also win games just by playing UG good stuff

//Creatures: 8
3 Ice-Fang Coatl
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Endurance

//Spells: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abundant Harvest
2 Force of Negation

//Enchantments: 3
3 Sylvan Library

//Planeswalkers: 4
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//White cards or Black cards: 7
0-7 white cards
0-7 black cards

//Lands: 20
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
2-3 other fetches
2 Tropical Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2-3 other lands for splash

Yeah, sure instead of white cards and some walkers you could play 4 Stifle + 4 Dreadnought + 4 Dress Down (and Wastelands as the splash lands) and the rest of the pile will still do its thing enough to win games. But this doubles down on needing to race with Nought/Uro because you can't really remove what the opponent makes.

Clark Kant

06-09-2021, 05:43 PM

Regarding playing UG good stuff, a big crux of Vaka Nought is the Wasteland, Daze, Stifle package combined with Dress Down, Dreadnought and an Escape creature. You mana screw your opponent for a turn or two and beat them down with a 12/12 or a Titan while they are still trying to rebuild. What you posted is indeed NotVaka.dec and I believe that it's not going to be anywhere near as effective as the Vaka Nought shell due to lacking this mana disruption element.

I am not saying UG is the best direction for Vaka Nought. The core of the deck is 4 Dreadnought, 4 Dress Down, 4 Stifle, 4 Daze, 3-4 Wasteland and either 4 Uro or 2 Kroxa + either Gurmag Angler or Death's Shadow, but a splash is never out of question.

I have also been toying around with and having a great experience with Bant Vaka Nought due to how rock solid Prismatic Ending ended up being maindeck and how awesome Serenity and Knight of Autumn in the sideboard have been with all the affinity running around post MH2...

The current iteration that I am playing looks like this, but the list is still being tweaked...

Bant Vaka Nought 1.0

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Prismatic Ending
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Brazen Borrower

Sideboard:
3 Endurance
2 Knight of Autumn
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Serenity
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Knight of Autumn
4 Flex Slots

I am still tweaking the sideboard but will post an update once I am done. The reason for all the 1 ofs is because I am still testing, all the 1 of cards have been good so I dont know which are the best of the best in the new meta.

How's the deck doing? Any MTGO League 5-0s yet? Thinking of entering the next Challenge?

No I have not 5-0ed yet. I played three leagues with the UG version, went 4-1 my first league, and then went 3-2 twice when everyone started playing Affinity and Delver due to MH2 until I had a chance to go up on my Null Rod effects and Endurance. I played pretty well my first league, but frequently made play errors due to misunderstand the MH2 cards that lost me 1-2 matches in both the latter leagues. I also actually have limited experience with MTGO (only started it due to pandemic) and my laptop is super old and finicky (frequently makes misyields or misclicks, incorrectly double click an function key and even crashes on occasion which is incredibly annoying). As such I dont feel great about spending a bunch of money on challenges until I test and tweak the bant version, understand the MH2 meta better and ideally also get a better setup to play mtgo on and gain more experience with the client. I mostly play in the practice room or the occasional 2 player que and I win most of the games I play but I know the environment in the practice room is no where near as competitive as a challenge.

I played enough to come to realize that this deck is very very good, was probably tier 1 before MH2 became widely adopted but right now mainly just needs some adjustments to deal with the new stuff from MH2 to reemerge as a Tier 1 predator again. I'm indeed retrying the White splash because Prismatic Ending is just wonderful in Vaka Nought and Knight of Autumn and Serenity have been fantastic in the sideboard in the new meta.

FTW

06-09-2021, 06:09 PM

Clark Kant

06-14-2021, 09:59 AM

BoshNRoll plays Vaka Nought!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

Highly recommend watching the video of the league before reading further. Game one is absolutely hilarious and is blisteringly fast. BoshNRoll provides fantastic commentary and explanations as always. And he is absolutely one of the best magic players out there, inspite of a minor mistake that seems to have cost him the 5-0 (dazing the dark ritual against oops would have led to a 5-0, and there was no reason not to since the opponent already cast summoner’s pact), is an absolute delight to watch and learn from.

Several posters wanted to read about or watch a mtgo league of Vaka Nought in action. I thought it would be cool to be able to share gameplay footage. Unfortunately, technical limitations of my decade old laptop and it’s frequent crashes which have cost me multiple matches (apple user so not great with fixing windows mtgo bugs) has made that impossible, so I went back to the practice rooms and donated to BoshNRoll to take one of the Vaka Nought iterations through a magic online league to be able to share some cool gameplay and inspire discussion here.

What makes this dreadnought deck unique is that the card neutrality and versatility of dress down and the resilience of Uro make it very easy to switch to a midrange game plan if plan A fails, and also to transform into a full midrange deck postboard against control decks that simply pack too many answers for plan A to work. Earlier Dreadnought lists lost to control, where as this deck is able to pivot to a decent matchup against control. The video does a great job showing this.

The list BoshNRoll played is the Simic Version that I had submitted (I had also submitted a Bant and a Grixis version and asked him to pick and tweak his favorite list, but I really loved that the simic version could be built without dual lands, simply by replacing the tropical islands with a prismatic vista and an additonal snow covered island)…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

Vaka Nought – Simic

3 Wasteland

1 Urza’s Saga

2 Snow-Covered Forest

3 Snow-Covered Island

3 Tropical Island

3 Prismatic Vista

4 Misty Rainforest

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

2 Noble Hierarch

2 Brazen Borrower

1 Ice-Fang Coatl

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

2 Sylvan Library

4 Dress Down

4 Stifle

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

1 Force of Negation

Sideboard:

3 Endurance

2 Veil of Summer

2 Carpet of Flowers

1 Wilt

1 Collector Ouphe

1 Sylvan Safekeeper

1 Flusterstorm

1 Blue Elemental Blast

1 Null Rod

1 Pithing Needle

1 Soul-Guide Lantern

The video speaks for itself. It was a very competitive league but the only game lost the whole league was due to a minor misread/misplay vs. No Land Spy which ironically enough happens to be among Vaka Nought’s most favorable matchups (8 maindeck Stifle and Dress Down are a nightmare for Thassa’s Oracle based decks). Otherwise BoshNRoll played as amazing as he always does. It was fun watching him take gameplay lines that I wouldnt have considered, such as casting a sylvan library at 1:05 to draw out a suspected abrupt decay instead of casting dress down at the end of your opponents turn two so that you could slam two Dreadnoughts the following turn as I would have done to try to save the Stifle for a potentional Liliana downtick or Deed activation later in the game.

But as powerful and budget friendly as the Simic version is, I had since switched back to the Bant version due to how powerful Prismatic Ending has been…

Vaka Nought - Bant

4 Wasteland

4 Misty Rainforest

4 Flooded Strand

2 Snow-Covered Island

1 Snow-Covered Forest

1 Snow-Covered Plains

1 Tundra

2 Tropical Island

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

2 Noble Hierarch

1 Ice-Fang Coatl

1 Brazen Borrower

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

4 Stifle

4 Dress Down

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

3 Prismatic Ending

1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:

3 Endurance

2 Knight of Autumn

2 Carpet of Flowers

1 Serenity

1 Force of Negation

1 Mystical Dispute

1 Brazen Borrower

1 Collector Ouphe

1 Containment Priest

1 Mother of Runes

1 Swords to Plowshares

The above are the two tuned and refined lists of Vaka Nought, but I have a lot more fun toying around with Grixis Vaka Nought...

Vaka Nought - Grixis

4 Wasteland

4 Polluted Delta

4 Scalding Tarn

2 Underground Sea

2 Volcanic Island

1 Badlands

1 Island

4 Thoughtseize

4 Daze

4 Force of Will

4 Stifle

4 Dress Down

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

1-2 Reanimate

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

8 Creatures from the below choices…

Dragon’s Rage Channeler + Mishra’s Baubles and Urza’s Sagas for consistent delirium

Death’s Shadow +/- Street Wraits (Shadow seems to work better as a 1-2 of midgame bomb in a build with 0-1 shocks instead of as a 4 of paried with multiple wraiths and shocks)

Either Kroxa, Titan of Death’s Hunger or Gurmag Angler possibly paired with Ragavan instead of Channeler (Kroxa is fantastic with Dress Down and Stifle but competes with Channeler for the yard a bit, but not really a nonbo the way that Angler + Channeler are)

Have not had a chance to test Ragavan or Dark Confidant or Bonecrusher Giant bur those could take up some slots.

4 Ragavan + 3 Kroxa + 1-2 Deaths Shadows as a random midgame bomb might end up being correct.

My current build runs 4 Dragon’s Rage Channelers along with Mishra’s Baubles and Urza’s Sagas to find Dreadnought while maximizing your enchantment and artifact count to ensure consistent delirium and 2 Kroxa despite the slight dis synergy between Channeler and Escape cards. Channeler has exceeded my expectations by serving double duty as both a threat and a way to dig for key cards faster. Its almost like a mini sylvan library strapped to the back of a delver.

The Grixis list is in flux but all the synergies are a lot of fun. Death’s Shadow briefly becomes a 13/13 when you cast Dress Down and Kroxa, similar to Uro, can be stifled, or it could be cast during a turn that you have Dress Down on the board. A 2 mana value Kroxa is superior to a 3 mana value Uro in situations where you no longer need to pay a 4 mana escape cost the next turn.

Or if you want to get super spicy and build the whole deck around Urza’s Saga, you can even go mono blue and keep the deck very budget friendly while retaining its competitiveness(still in early development)…

Vaka Nought – Mono Blue

4 Urza’s Saga

4 Polluted Delta

4 Scalding Tarn

4 Snow-Covered Island

3 Island

1 Mystic Sanctuary

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Delver of Secrets

3 Brazen Borrower

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Subtlety (Test slot, might be better off as Preordain, Standstill or Flusterstorm)

1 Soul-Guide Lantern

1 Mishra’s Bauble/Hope of Ghirapur

1 Pithing Needle/Shadowspear

4 Stifle

4 Dress Down

4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder

4 Force of Will

1 Force of Negation

1 Preordain

I recommend the Bant version of Vaka Nought personally if you want a tuned consistent list with lots of answers and the ability to grind out of most any situation, but the other iterations are very powerful and imo the Kroxa version is actually more fun to watch, play and play against. So if others here agree, I am open to discussing, and working on testing or tweaking kroxa nought built around channeler, or donating to thrabenu or boshnroll to be share some gameplay of my current lists in action.

FTW

06-15-2021, 05:10 PM

Clark Kant

06-16-2021, 12:42 AM

Congrats on the results. BoshNRoll did well with it.

This metagame seems good for UGx in general. Uro and Endurance crush what UR Delver is trying to do, Prismatic Ending is versatile, and the Xerox package crushes most of the rest of the format.

NotVaka.dek got 1st place on Saturday's Legacy Challenge & 2nd place on Sunday's Challenge:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-06-13#ozymandias_st_place
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2021-06-14#leofa_nd_place

Same UGw list as I had above with:
-1 white removal, -1 Sylvan, +2 EE (metagaming vs Affinity)
-1 Jace + 1 Narset (same walkers, just different split)
-1 Abundant Harvest, -1 Karakas, +1 Endurance +1 Ice-Fang (greedier with threats, less mana)

In your list, is Ice-Fang that good as a 1-of? You could just be running more white removal spells in the Bant version.
How good is Hierarch as a 2-of instead of 4-of? Not consistent enough to give T1 mana acceleration. The main value seems to be surprise factor, getting opponent to waste removal on it before they know you're not Maverick.

Yeah, Bant got a huge upgrade thanks to Endurance and Prismatic Ending. Not surprised the deck is doing well. I was blown away by endurance and drawn to how you no longer needed white for the sake of sideboard rest in peace, that I eagerly went from bant to simic two weeks ago and submitted that list to BoshNRoll to play as the finalized list.

Its only a few days letter when I got around to testing Prismatic Ending that I saw how amazing that card is in the bant version but I already finalized the list by then.

Dreadnought got a huge upgrade with Dress Down and I think the lists incorporating all of these new additions will thrive in the current meta. The another huge pro from white is serenity vs artifact decks, and knight against all nonaggro decks.

The rule of thumb for me is that I never play 4 copies of cards that I dislike seeing multiples of in the same game, unless they are win conditions that are a magnet for removal/counters/discard.

Ice Fang is perfect as a 1-2 of. You almost never want to see multiple in a game as its not a finisher, and its a far better card when it shows up midgame, once you have enough snow lands that it gains deathtouch and thus can kill most anything.

Hierarch is absolute trash in multiples in my experience, but solid when it does show up, as it draws removal, pitches to Endurance or helps escape uro. So I find it works best as a 2 of.

I also care more about fun and variety than winning, which is why I frequently swap between different deck and prefer to build decks with lots of 1-2 ofs in my lists and sideboards. Thats also why I donated to BoshNRoll to play the funner list, kroxa nought even if it wont be as competitive or as likely to 5-0 as the bant list above.

Clark Kant

06-16-2021, 09:53 PM

Just wanted to share my current test list with the Grixis version...

Vaka Nought - Surveil Version

4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Kroxa
1-2 Lazav, the Multifarious
1-2 Ragavan (Test Slots, could instead go to Force of Negation or Flusterstorm or Drown in the Loch or Preordain or to a different threat such as Death's Shadow or Delver of Secrets or to Urza's Saga targets like Soul Guide Lantern or Pithing Needle)

0-1 Urza's Saga
3-4 Wasteland
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

The above list is the one that is the current focus of development, as the Bant and Simic versions feel really good where they are right now.

Surveil is such an incredibly strong ability and boot strapping it to Channeler and Lazav made it very abusable.

FTW

06-17-2021, 06:40 AM

Clark Kant

06-17-2021, 08:13 AM

I'm not a big fan of Kroxa, but I like that this is overall lower to the ground than your UGx deck with more low cmc pressure to punish opponent after you catch them with mana denial. I recommend 2-4 Ragavan. The card is amazing in a Daze deck.

I notice you're running 0 removal despite these colors having such great removal. Do you have room for Lightning Bolt? It does so many things like remove early problems and help finish races.

Edit: I'd be tempted to try this

//Creatures: 12
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer

//Spells: 21
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation

//Enchantments: 7
4 Standstill
3 Dress Down

//Lands: 20
1 Urza's Saga
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Prismatic Vista
2 Flooded Strand
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Standstill should be strong here because you have so many insane 1 mana threats. Mana denial should be strong for the same reasons. Dress Down removing enemy creature abilities helps deal with things Bolt can't kill.

I like it, it looks like a solid plan. Its been a while since I played around with Standstill but DRC being so synergic with Dreadnought and Lazav and also 1cc is exactly the kind of thing needed to make Standstill work. I am not sold that Standstill is needed in the deck but if you want to make Standstill work, that’s a fine way to do it.

I would recommend...
+3-4 Ponder
-1 Standstill
-1 Bolt
-1 FoW/FoN/Daze

Or alternatively by cutting both Ragavan and Urza’s Saga.

Or adding a black splash like I did for Thoughtseizes, a Kroxa and a Lazav or two just because they work really well with Surveil and either protect the win con or advance the game plan.

Ponder is already a fantastic card, but it really shines alongside DRC.

I tried Bolt and even Push, and Bolt especially was decent but not great so I ended up dropping it. It neither advanced the primary game plan nor protected the Dreadnought, and it sometimes messes with your opponents gameplan but sometimes they could care less about it. Its a solid versatile card and definitely promising in the sideboard so its never going to be bad, but I would be inclined to play it in place of cards that play a similar role, such as a Daze or Thoughtseize, instead of in place of synergetic threats.

Yeah Kroxa is no Uro or Dreadnought. The latter threats are definitely superior but its impossible to come up with a consistent manabase that can accommodate Uro alongside both DRC and Lazav and the surveil synergies are just so damn powerful. Kroxa is on color and synergizes so well with the rest of the deck, that its worth it as a 1-2 of. It has won me a decent number of games just by being a 6/6 titan that you can cheat out in multiple ways for just 2 mana, that also happens to bolt your opponent to the face when cast or escaped and does a great job of applying pressure while being bigger than anything on your opponents half of the board.

Clark Kant

06-18-2021, 01:07 PM

Yeah Kroxa is no Uro or Dreadnought. The latter threats are definitely superior but its impossible to come up with a consistent manabase that can accommodate Uro alongside both DRC and Lazav and the surveil synergies are just so damn powerful.

I've put together a Temur List that manages to pair Uro with DRC and Ragavan. It's still very early but the list seems to be working well despite my concerns about the manabase...

Vaka Nought - Temur (aka. Dress Naughty)

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Snow Covered Island
1 Snow Covered Forest
1 Snow Covered Mountain
1 Prismatic Vista

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
3 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation

Sideboard:
1 Abrade
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Wilt
2 Veil of Summer
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Pyroblast
3 Endurance

It's still early and the manabase and some of the cards might need tweaking.

It looks very similar to Temur Delver but it's a misdirect of sorts. Your opponents will think they are playing vs Delver and will heavily focus on countering or killing DRC/Ragavan asap, and will expect Lightning Bolt and will thus value their life total highly when casting Ad Nauseam or utilizing Sylvan Library. In doing so, your smaller threats really function to draw out removal and counterspells that would have otherwise hit your Dreadnought or Uro. Your smaller threats also all generate pseudo card advantage (DRC's surveil trigger helps you dig for your Dress Downs while filling up your yard for Uro, meanwhile Ragavan makes treasure tokens and lets you cast your opponents cantrips to help dig for combo pieces). They also serve to ping at your opponents life total so that a single swing with the Dreadnoughts and Uros wins the game.

The one weakness with this approach is that the only interaction that you have game one with your opponent's game plan is Daze, Force, Brazen, Stifle, Wasteland and Dress Down (against specific matchups). Postboard, you have quite a bit more interaction with your opponent.

Clark Kant

06-19-2021, 07:09 PM

Mr. Safety, please feel free to lock and/or delete this thread as the first page is just a confusing mess so I have decided to create a new thread. Thank you.