WotC Ending Pro Play Discussion

[Wrath of Pie]

I guess Wizards decided that high-end competitive magic was banworthy (https://articles.starcitygames.com/news/2021-2022-will-be-last-season-for-pro-magic-play/) after all!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I guess Wizards decided that high-end competitive magic was banworthy (https://articles.starcitygames.com/news/2021-2022-will-be-last-season-for-pro-magic-play/) after all!Fucking weak.

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[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Honestly it makes sense. Most pro players I've known have been pretty cool but I think the competitive grinding circuit is generally a breeding pool for toxicity, just in terms of social behavior, to say nothing of rampant cheating and theft.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Honestly it makes sense. Most pro players I've known have been pretty cool but I think the competitive grinding circuit is generally a breeding pool for toxicity, just in terms of social behavior, to say nothing of rampant cheating and theft.

You misunderstand: big events with large payouts aren't going away. It's the salaries for players that are.

[Wrath of Pie]

You misunderstand: big events with large payouts aren't going away. It's the salaries for players that are.
Why have large events with big payouts when you can instead have large events with small payouts spread out further?

Oh, and obviously tie them in to Commander.

[Zoid]

It's almost like they completely ignored forming a competitive scene and once the realized they maybe should do something it wasn't not only too late, they also did it in best WotC fashion, as awful as possible.

What a surprise.

At this point, why not rebrand to "Magic the commandering" and just drop all other formats?
It's not like this won't happen in the next few years anyway.

[Wrath of Pie]

It's almost like they completely ignored forming a competitive scene and once the realized they maybe should do something it wasn't not only too late, they also did it in best WotC fashion, as awful as possible.

What a surprise.

At this point, why not rebrand to "Magic the commandering" and just drop all other formats?
It's not like this won't happen in the next few years anyway.

Honestly, that would be an upgrade because at least it would be honest and get to the truth.

[Kage]

I understand the frustration but hasn't been it established in the last 5-10 year that the bulk of magic revenue comes front casual (kitchen table, commander, collector, non-tournament competing) people? It makes sense from a financial pov to drop the Pro support in favor of those.

Legacy is dead anyway with the RL price spikes.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Why have large events with big payouts when you can instead have large events with small payouts spread out further?

Oh, and obviously tie them in to Commander.

I don't know, just relaying information. They said there would still be PT and Grand Prix level/size events, and they were going to reinvest the money used for Rivals and MPL for bigger prizes.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I understand the frustration but hasn't been it established in the last 5-10 year that the bulk of magic revenue comes front casual (kitchen table, commander, collector, non-tournament competing) people? It makes sense from a financial pov to drop the Pro support in favor of those.

Legacy is dead anyway with the RL price spikes.

According to their internal data, 90% of players have never played in a sanctioned event, a number I find difficult to believe since that would preclude prelease/release events which I'm sure everyone was roped into at least once who plays the game for any period of time.
Or they're counting MTGO/Arena bots in a weird way.

[Wrath of Pie]

I don't know, just relaying information. They said there would still be PT and Grand Prix level/size events, and they were going to reinvest the money used for Rivals and MPL for bigger prizes.
Do you really believe what they say?

[Wrath of Pie]

According to their internal data, 90% of players have never played in a sanctioned event, a number I find difficult to believe since that would preclude prelease/release events which I'm sure everyone was roped into at least once who plays the game for any period of time.
Or they're counting MTGO/Arena bots in a weird way.
I'm actually surprised this number isn't higher. Also, you severely underestimate the army of casual players out there that just play the greatest format ever: "Cards I Own."

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Do you really believe what they say?

When it comes to "will promotional magic exist" yea.
When it comes to "90% of players haven't played so much in a prerelease ever" no.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I'm actually surprised this number isn't higher. Also, you severely underestimate the army of casual players out there that just play the greatest format ever: "Cards I Own."

IDK I used to work in an LGS and even kitchen table kids would have their story how they went to an organized play event hated it and never played in the DCI again. Which would take them out of the 90%

[Zoid]

I understand the frustration but hasn't been it established in the last 5-10 year that the bulk of magic revenue comes front casual (kitchen table, commander, collector, non-tournament competing) people? It makes sense from a financial pov to drop the Pro support in favor of those.

Legacy is dead anyway with the RL price spikes.

Taking a dump on the pro scene is also a huge blow to competitive magic in general.
The pro scene both draws in people in with the minuscule probability of "making it big" like other sports as well as doing advertisement.
However, considering what kind of BS the community has taken without lube in the last decade+, it's probably inconsequential.
It's incredibly sad that magic has reached the point of being "too big to fail" because there are so many idiots still buying everything.

Let's see how competitive evolves when in person play becomes possible again.
Maybe they'll think about it again when they notice their Standard legal sets don't sell anymore.
One can only dream.....

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I dont get it.

Maybe someone should open a thread in the Community board and explain what exactly is changing!

tbh sounds like alot of "the sky is falling" talk

[phonics]

I assume it is something like pro play was their attempt to foster personalities that could be good ambassadors for the game, specifically in marketing. This was traditionally the case with how pro players made articles for big mtg sites like star city. Maybe they have found pros aren't that great for that, especially when wotc ruins formats for years and pro players have to pretend it isn't that bad, they basically only play standard and limited, which are boring to watch, and they are fairly limited outside of their niche of competitive play, which few people actually do when it comes to mtg. On top of that most pros aren't exactly the type that care about being charismatic and marketable personalities. Maybe they are just moving away from 'pro' being a thing since it requires them to be able to design good sets that arent broken while keeping them fresh, which they find too restrictive under the FIRE design philosophy.

At the same time there has been a rise in popularity in the parasocial nerd cliques like the ones that do special events like the pre-prereleases (loadingreadyrun), or the ones that do commander videos (commander vs, command zone etc) or just casual players like Tolorian Community College. These guys can get hype for every product that wotc prints (secret lair hype!!!), whereas pro players only care about regular set printings for the most part. They also don't really care if the formats they play are dumpster fires since they are more casual (which aligns better with the core demographic), and they can also be used as crossover promotional tools for other IP like DnD. Hell, they can just do content like opening packs and people love that. So these new guys basically fulfill the functions pros had before in terms of advertising the game, and are far superior at it.

[Ronald Deuce]

Maybe they have found pros aren't that great for that, especially when wotc ruins formats for years and pro players have to pretend it isn't that bad, they basically only play standard and limited, which are boring to watch, and they are fairly limited outside of their niche of competitive play, which few people actually do when it comes to mtg.

It doesn't help that the more interesting formats aren't accessible to most people because of an abominable pricing model that's engineered into the game. Standard was fun when I was a kid. Standard isn't fun in my thirties. Want to try something more interesting? Pay up. $150. No, don't pay the game's manufacturer; pay some other guy. And now, it's actually $500. Why? Because.

A strong narrative with interesting personalities in the pro circuit won't fix this. And it's not just Legacy that has this problem: There are Modern decks that are more expensive than, and worse than, competitive Legacy lists, and it's getting worse.


On top of that most pros aren't exactly the type that care about being charismatic and marketable personalities.

This is tremendously important. Any and all hot air and corporatese statements of intent exchanged over inclusivity are ultimately overwritten by butthole streamers who act like they're still 12 and attract a fanbase of butthole players who ruin in-person play for everybody else.

This is not a blanket indictment of MtG content creators, but the "thimbleful of shit" analogy applies to the community.


At the same time there has been a rise in popularity in the parasocial nerd cliques like the ones that do special events like the pre-prereleases (loadingreadyrun), or the ones that do commander videos (commander vs, command zone etc) or just casual players like Tolorian Community College. These guys can get hype for every product that wotc prints (secret lair hype!!!), whereas pro players only care about regular set printings for the most part.

100%.

[TsumiBand]

Leaving product hype up to content creators is a super risky move imho, unless those creators are expressly on Hasbro's dime they'll be reviewing the product as individuals instead of in lock-step with corporate. Tolarian Community College is a pretty good example of being a dissenting voice, if everyone listened to The Professor we'd never see another Secret Lair.

[phonics]

It doesn't help that the more interesting formats aren't accessible to most people because of an abominable pricing model that's engineered into the game. Standard was fun when I was a kid. Standard isn't fun in my thirties. Want to try something more interesting? Pay up. $150. No, don't pay the game's manufacturer; pay some other guy. And now, it's actually $500. Why? Because.


This is why I am critical of modern wotc printing practices starting with the masters sets and haven't purchased any product in years. They saw that the secondary market was pricing cards very high and instead of trying to alleviate that issue, they essentially co-opted it for their own profit. Instead of getting lots of sales by reprinting expensive cards in standard sets with standard prices, they now reprint expensive cards in non standard sets with non standard pricing simply to capture that portion of the secondary market. Now they go even further with what is basically print to demand "pimp" in the collectors editions and secret lairs. I guess what it boils down to is that the new demographic they care about are much more willing to spend much more money than the people who thought a 50$ baneslayer was ridiculous.


Leaving product hype up to content creators is a super risky move imho, unless those creators are expressly on Hasbro's dime they'll be reviewing the product as individuals instead of in lock-step with corporate. Tolarian Community College is a pretty good example of being a dissenting voice, if everyone listened to The Professor we'd never see another Secret Lair.

It could be risky, I think the one example was what happened with the walking dead secret lair, some people were very vocal against it but in the end they still fell into line. It isnt really a secret that wotc has messed up a lot recently but they do a pretty good job of not letting criticism stick.
I think TCC is unique since he is basically the biggest one and largely unaffiliated but is still largely nonthreatening, like a softer, controlled opposition (though I could be wrong, I haven't really watched much of his videos). In comparison I think most of the other groups are just uncontroversial yes-men, that understand it is better to not bite the hand that feeds them, be it wotc who give them juicy card reveals or whatever, or to card stores whose sole purpose is to churn cards into the market.

[Wrath of Pie]

Walking Dead ended up being their best selling Secret Lair.

[kombatkiwi]

This is why I am critical of modern wotc printing practices starting with the masters sets and haven't purchased any product in years. They saw that the secondary market was pricing cards very high and instead of trying to alleviate that issue, they essentially co-opted it for their own profit. Instead of getting lots of sales by reprinting expensive cards in standard sets with standard prices, they now reprint expensive cards in non standard sets with non standard pricing simply to capture that portion of the secondary market. Now they go even further with what is basically print to demand "pimp" in the collectors editions and secret lairs. I guess what it boils down to is that the new demographic they care about are much more willing to spend much more money than the people who thought a 50$ baneslayer was ridiculous.

Unfortunately it's very hard to form a coherent argument against this practice from wotc because all you're basically saying "pwease wotc can you take a hit to your bottom line for me, I want to be able to play your game more cheaply uwu".

Like if WotC wants to reprint e.g. Mana Drain in a masters set or whatever product where it is relatively scarce, then it's because they think that keeping the secondary market price of the card relatively high can make them the most money in the long run. (Because they can use cards with expensive secondary market prices to justify high MSRP on packs that contain reprints of them).

At the end of the day wotc is a business and like any business they probably make the most money by pricing their product in such a way that it excludes some people as customers.

Of course from the POV of a player it would be fantastic if every card was at most $1 but there are many worse things that wotc could do e.g:

- Never reprint mana drain at all so the price just keeps going up and up and up. This is bad for the players (price of playing the game goes up) and bad for wotc (the high demand for reprint is basically leaving free money on the table). [i.e. Reserved List]
- Print a better mana drain in a standard set to sell packs, obsoleting the old mana drain. (You could make the argument that with the sequence of Oko -> Uro -> Omnath they kind of already did this kind of strategy, but with the last few sets they seem to be toning things down significantly)
- Print a different manadrain in an exclusive limited-availability product. (This was why the backlash for the TWD secret lair was justifiably large, if secret lair exclusives were necessary to play tier 1 decks then a cynical wotc can just introduce whatever powerful card with any pricetag they like). The "print to pimp" model on the other hand is a win-win-win because competitive players can just ignore it, whales get some cool shit, wotc makes money on it. It's dumb af to act like there is a dilemma like "wotc could have printed Care Package: Poverty Edition containing all playsets of fetchlands for $10 but instead they printed secret lair exclusive edition where you get 1 of each for $100+, get the pitchforks". They were never going to do the first option anyway and the 2nd option is generally a pretty harmless way for wotc to make money (from the pov of a competitive player).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Unfortunately it's very hard to form a coherent argument against this practice from wotc because all you're basically saying "pwease wotc can you take a hit to your bottom line for me, I want to be able to play your game more cheaply uwu".

Coherent mean logical and consistent, BTW, not whatever you think it means here.

[kombatkiwi]

Coherent mean logical and consistent, BTW, not whatever you think it means here.

Ok whatever man cbf addressing my point at all so enlist your friend Mr Merriam-Webster


This is why I am critical of modern wotc printing practices starting with the masters sets and haven't purchased any product in years. They saw that the secondary market was pricing cards very high and instead of trying to alleviate that issue, they essentially co-opted it for their own profit. Instead of getting lots of sales by reprinting expensive cards in standard sets with standard prices, they now reprint expensive cards in non standard sets with non standard pricing simply to capture that portion of the secondary market. Now they go even further with what is basically print to demand "pimp" in the collectors editions and secret lairs. I guess what it boils down to is that the new demographic they care about are much more willing to spend much more money than the people who thought a 50$ baneslayer was ridiculous.

What is the alternative?

If you want them to "get lots of sales by reprinting expensive cards in standard sets with standard prices" it seems you are asking wotc to willingly sacrifice some amount of equity they have in their IP

So either your argument is

1) WotC / Hasbro should do this because they are a rich company and can afford it and would make people happy.

Which might be a 'coherent' idea but it requires a kind of anticapitalist philosophy that we don't seem to apply to other corporations (at least not with the same ardor).

2) WotC should do this because actually they are not sacrificing anything, in the long run they will lose money if they don't because the expensive cards price people out of the game and/or they would actually make more money in the long run by dropping the price to increase demand/sales

You can make this 'coherent' argument if you want, but I don't think it's correct

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ok whatever man cbf addressing my point at all so enlist your friend Mr Merriam-Webster
Correct. Your point "advertising is bad because it costs money" I didn't really think needed to be bothered with.

[Mr. Safety]

Is there a discussion to be had about how the pro-tour/etc caused prices to climb up due to expanded demand? Is cutting off the pro-tour (or whatever they replace it with) a way to keep older cards from spiking?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Is there a discussion to be had about how the pro-tour/etc caused prices to climb up due to expanded demand? Is cutting off the pro-tour (or whatever they replace it with) a way to keep older cards from spiking?

But these large events that can spike a card aren't going anywhere.

[kombatkiwi]

Is there a discussion to be had about how the pro-tour/etc caused prices to climb up due to expanded demand? Is cutting off the pro-tour (or whatever they replace it with) a way to keep older cards from spiking?

[Assuming this was a hypothetical suggestion] It's cutting off your nose to spite your face, if you only play kitchen table then you can just proxy everything anyway.

If you're making the argument for FNM heroes who have no interest in GPs / PTs etc but still need real cards, then it might be possible that having no higher-level events to affect demand would make it cheaper for them to play, but then
- Do the FNM heroes really/honestly have 0 interest in seeing their format played at a high level?
- Without any GP/PT to hold competitive players' interest how many people are going to be turning up to FNM anyway? Presumably less
- Is that going to make it harder for the LGS to survive?
etc


Correct. Your point "advertising is bad because it costs money" I didn't really think needed to be bothered with.

I'm not a business guru but 'should we make the coca cola cans 10c cheaper and hopefully the increased sales offsets the lower price' doesn't seem to have anything to do with advertising

[H]

I'm not a business guru but 'should we make the coca cola cans 10c cheaper and hopefully the increased sales offsets the lower price' doesn't seem to have anything to do with advertising

Well, I think this idea was "tried" although not literally. The push a few years back was to "grow the game," in other words, focus on recruiting and gaining new players. However, while this "worked" to some degree, eventually it plateaued and really the game was just "holding on to" players more so.

They decided that it was better do "organicly grow" the market, that is, turn notional $10 players in $100, $100 ones into $1000 (although none of that literally). In that sense, it's to made "invested players invest more." While the allure of a "Pro player" as a lifestyle might help with that, honestly, it probably doesn't all that much.

I think that most "Pro players" actually have relatively small collections in reality (not compared to an "average" casual player, but compared to avid collector sorts of players), because they actually don't make enough from the "career" to afford the premium cards (wakka, wakka, wakka).

Why the shift though? Why not grow the game in perpetuity? Well, my theory at the time (and one I'd still espouse) is that there is a real limit to MTG's appeal. The game simply doesn't appeal universally, some people simply are not interested in a some-what complex, rather expensive, card game, period. No matter the marketing, regardless of story/art/theme/whatever, there just is only so many people who really will want to play. So the "logical" aim in that case is to get a close to that "limit" and then focus on "cashing in" on those people as much as possible.

If you try to make MTG a game for literally everyone, it will end up being a game for absolutely no one. (And no, I am not talking at all about story/theme/character representation at all, I am only talking about mechanics/complexity/game play as it related to actually playing the game).

[Mr. Safety]

[Assuming this was a hypothetical suggestion] It's cutting off your nose to spite your face, if you only play kitchen table then you can just proxy everything anyway.

Bingo, so in my mind it carries even further: it major events are cancelled, is there even a reason for a banlist? As you note, this is 100% hypothetical. I don't think big events are going away, they will just turn into GP's/Mythic events. The real root of where I wanted to take this was the beginning of the end of DCI/WOTC sponsored events. Looking at their product it is overwhelmingly a digital one at this point with kitchen table players the biggest contributors to the paper side. Sponsoring events seems to be on the path of diminishing returns. I know this is a slippery slope argument, and not a good one, but I can't help but have a suspicion that WOTC is experimenting on how much they will lose if they stop investing energy into pro tours/big events. Maybe they will get a better return just going after the digital environment. Maybe commander becomes the only truly lucrative format, so new sets are geared specifically to those.


If you're making the argument for FNM heroes who have no interest in GPs / PTs etc but still need real cards, then it might be possible that having no higher-level events to affect demand would make it cheaper for them to play, but then
- Do the FNM heroes really/honestly have 0 interest in seeing their format played at a high level?
- Without any GP/PT to hold competitive players' interest how many people are going to be turning up to FNM anyway? Presumably less
- Is that going to make it harder for the LGS to survive? etc

Are there any FNM heroes anymore? The demographic for older formats, especially Legacy and Vintage, is an aging one. I have zero interest in doing any amount of serious traveling for big events. If there was one 1 hr or less from my house, sure, I'd go. Otherwise I'm content with local events like 1K's, etc. Do people even play Standard in paper anymore? At my pre-covid LGS FNM was dead. I actually think cutting out bigger events would actually drive more activity at the local level, which is where the LGS support would need to come into play. Who knows, without big events maybe WOTC goes hard into supporting LGS's in a big way. I could get behind that, for sure.

[Tylert]

As long as we still have GP pro-tours or events of the like after Covid it's ok to abandon the MPL which was kinda boring to follow anyway.
Of course the better thing would be to have Legacy GP. but let's not dream to much or hope in anyways :)

[Barook]

Bingo, so in my mind it carries even further: it major events are cancelled, is there even a reason for a banlist?
Nobody is going to play shitty format, even if it's online. Thus if they don't ban anything, it affects their dosh.

[Mr. Safety]

That's my point...there wouldn't be formats anymore, other than commander and kitchen table.

[Wrath of Pie]

That's my point...there wouldn't be formats anymore, other than commander and kitchen table.
From Wizards' perspective, that may not be such a bad thing because those customers are the vast majority of the buyers of their product.

[Sella]

I mean yeah it sucks they're cutting direct support but all it really means is having a "career" in Magic, as with any TCG, will rely more on content creation than tournament tops. Wizards (badly) pushed the competitive scene for a while, tried to turn Arena into some sort of esport, etc. but ultimately its more profitable to just embrace the kitchen table. I know I'm overly pessimistic but I always thought that Magic's been doomed to be a 90's nostalgia game anyways, and I never really bought into the idea that arena, building up pros to be MTG ambassadors, etc. was going to create a cultural impact on the same scale that we see with stuff like Marvel or create a competitive scene on the same scale of stuff like Hearthstone or actual esports like League.

And with all that said, back to watching MSI.

[kombatkiwi]

I think the path that this convo is going is falling into a kind of rhetorical/logical trap that Matt Sperling explained in a recent video he made in response to some similar comments on twitter

Basically the idea is just because the "kitchen table" is the most profitable sector doesn't mean that for WotC to focus on it they literally have to discard everything else.

The analogy (from Sperling) is that Toyota sells way more numbers and makes more money from e.g. Prius/Camry models than whatever higher-tier Supra/Lexus, but they are a big company that overall maximises their profit by having different offerings for different sectors/markets. "Shut down the Supra factory because we need those resources and can't keep up with the Camry demand" would be a proposal that makes some kind of logical sense but it's not a situation that Toyota seems to be in

Likewise with WotC, Mr Safety suggestion "That's my point...there wouldn't be formats anymore, other than commander and kitchen table.", why would WotC do this? It's not like it's a massive outlay to pay Ian Duke (plus whatever Skeleton Crew works with him on it) to manage the banlist and the amount of money it keeps making wotc just through MTGO modern/legacy is probably quite a lot.

Then you can extend this idea further, does having a competitive constructed GP generate as much revenue as idk, releasing a new set of 5 commander decks? Maybe not, but it can still easily be a profitable venture, it appeals to a different set of people, it can still be good business sense to have both commander offerings for sale AND some kind of competitive tournament circuit


Are there any FNM heroes anymore? The demographic for older formats, especially Legacy and Vintage, is an aging one. I have zero interest in doing any amount of serious traveling for big events. If there was one 1 hr or less from my house, sure, I'd go. Otherwise I'm content with local events like 1K's, etc. Do people even play Standard in paper anymore? At my pre-covid LGS FNM was dead. I actually think cutting out bigger events would actually drive more activity at the local level, which is where the LGS support would need to come into play. Who knows, without big events maybe WOTC goes hard into supporting LGS's in a big way. I could get behind that, for sure.

Your self description is basically my definition of FNM hero and everything I said there applies to you (even if you aren't playing literal FNMs, you're only playing random local events, no interest in travelling to bigger events or ambitions to play on the PT etc)

More support for activity at the local level will drive more activity at the local level
You can't just cut GPs/PTs and assume that all those players will happily migrate to whatever random LGS winabox/1K tournaments
I think it's likely that some of the players who previously enjoyed the local winabox/1K might have only appreciated that as a side-dish to their GP/PTQ goals so by axeing this 'top level' tournament these people just drop MTG entirely and you get less interest at the local level, not more.

The demographic for Legacy is older which means less motivation to play in low stakes LGS event every week (plus family commitments), but it also means enough financial (or other) freedom to go play in big events if that's what they want to do. How many 10yo pokemon players will buy a literal plane ticket to fly either across the USA (or to Bologna etc) and play a tournament

[Zoid]

We keep talking about how kitchen table stuff makes them more money but has anyone (I'm too lazy and don't really care that much) any numbers or detailed info on this?

I think there is also an underestimation of how much especially standard drives the box sales.
Sure, casuals will still buy boxes but it makes a huge difference if:

A) There is enough demand from standard players for the stores to profitably open enough cards so that the random garbage that is not competitive and kitchen table players want is cheap.

B) Likewise, if there are no standard players to which the casuals can sell the competitive stuff to which they don't want.

I guess they can only sell precons and stuff like Conspirance all they want then.

[Wrath of Pie]

Enfranchised competitive players really don't matter to Wizards though, they matter much more to the local game stores.

Good local game stores diversify their offerings anyways, and even they depend far more on the "invisibles" than you may think.

[H]

I think the path that this convo is going is falling into a kind of rhetorical/logical trap that Matt Sperling explained in a recent video he made in response to some similar comments on twitter

Basically the idea is just because the "kitchen table" is the most profitable sector doesn't mean that for WotC to focus on it they literally have to discard everything else.

The analogy (from Sperling) is that Toyota sells way more numbers and makes more money from e.g. Prius/Camry models than whatever higher-tier Supra/Lexus, but they are a big company that overall maximises their profit by having different offerings for different sectors/markets. "Shut down the Supra factory because we need those resources and can't keep up with the Camry demand" would be a proposal that makes some kind of logical sense but it's not a situation that Toyota seems to be in

The reason that doesn't make sense to do, in Magic or in car manufacturing, is because there is a market cap. So, sure, you might make more money from each Camry made/sold, but the market for that is only so big and you can only get so much of a share. In other words, not everyone is in the Camry market segment. So it makes perfect sense to make products for different market segments. So, for MTG, it makes no sense to make "beginner" sets, only. It also would make no sense to make "expert" sets, only. It would make no sense to make "casual" sets, only. It would make no sense to make "competitive" sets, only. Such an absolutist take is really nonsensical and I am not sure who would be realistically suggesting it as a business model.

The point is that you want your market to be as big, in theory, as you can make it, but you also want it to be sustainable and profitable. Just as how there is a logical limit to how many people would realistically ever buy a Camry or a Pruis, there are only so many people who would ever play Magic and enjoy it. If you are at, or near that sort of "limit" it makes much more sense to focus on growing that base, expanding sales by selling more to the "proven buyers." Car companies can't really do it, if you have a car, how many cars are you really going to be buying? Is anyone "collecting" Toyota or Lexus cars? It must be close to none.

So, the analogy falls apart pretty quick there. The point though is perfectly logical for Wizards to drop an idea of "unmitigated" growth of the player base and focus in on expanding the already existing base's spending. As long as the player numbers stay reasonably stable, this plan likely generates more revenue over time. If numbers drop though, a shift to a "new player" focused strategy likely would because a priority.

Let me be clear, I am not some business genius, I am not any sort of "expert" (in any field at all), but this sort of plan was literally the business model of the circa 20 billion dollar retail chain I worked at for 14 years. So, I am not really pulling it out of thin air, although there is no way I could tell you "how correct" it might be. My only point is the outline possible manners of framing what seems to be going on.

[kombatkiwi]

So, for MTG, it makes no sense to make "beginner" sets, only. It also would make no sense to make "expert" sets, only. It would make no sense to make "casual" sets, only. It would make no sense to make "competitive" sets, only. Such an absolutist take is really nonsensical and I am not sure who would be realistically suggesting it as a business model.

All the people who are unironically proposing "Well I guess it could be correct for WotC to totally drop any competitive support and just focus on making cards for commander players" are suggesting exactly this, no?


The point is that you want your market to be as big, in theory, as you can make it, but you also want it to be sustainable and profitable. Just as how there is a logical limit to how many people would realistically ever buy a Camry or a Pruis, there are only so many people who would ever play commanderand enjoy it.

Isn't this the more useful / realistic way of looking at it? The point of the analogy is that the Prius is just one subset of the company's offerings (like commander is just 1 subset of MTG offerings)
(Prius is to Commander, as a Car is to MTG, in this analogy)


So, the analogy falls apart pretty quick there. The point though is perfectly logical for Wizards to drop an idea of "unmitigated" growth of the player base and focus in on expanding the already existing base's spending. As long as the player numbers stay reasonably stable, this plan likely generates more revenue over time. If numbers drop though, a shift to a "new player" focused strategy likely would because a priority.

The whole point of the argument that Sperling is making is that if you drop the Pro Tour offering then you create that dip in player numbers, because all of your "Lexus buyers" disappear. They don't magically decide to become "Camry buyers". they just find what they are looking for elsewhere. It should be in the interest and within the capacity of WotC (incompetence notwithstanding) to continue to provide both.

[Barook]

It should be in the interest and within the capacity of WotC (incompetence notwithstanding) to continue to provide both.
The current thinking about Hasbro is probably to sack the money reserved for tournaments for more profit from WotC. Instant greed, no long-term plan.


So, the analogy falls apart pretty quick there. The point though is perfectly logical for Wizards to drop an idea of "unmitigated" growth of the player base and focus in on expanding the already existing base's spending. As long as the player numbers stay reasonably stable, this plan likely generates more revenue over time. If numbers drop though, a shift to a "new player" focused strategy likely would because a priority.
Sounds exactly like what they're doing right now, given the ever-increasing number of premium products, especially expensive Secret Lairs, to grow their revenue.

[kombatkiwi]

The current thinking about Hasbro is probably to sack the money reserved for tournaments for more profit from WotC. Instant greed, no long-term plan.
Yeah but this is so unbelievably myopic I can't even believe hasbro execs are that moronic
Like it can't be that hard to run the numbers on how much money there is to be made from a GP

[H]

All the people who are unironically proposing "Well I guess it could be correct for WotC to totally drop any competitive support and just focus on making cards for commander players" are suggesting exactly this, no?

That really depends on what "focus" means. To me, a focus does not have a default absolutist meaning though necessarily. If, say 50% of players are Commander-centric players (just to make up a number), 25% are casual-only and 25% are competitive, then it surely makes sense to "focus" products to this demographic skew, by matching your releases to, say, match that 50% skew in "focused" product. To default to the idea that, in essence, since the largest segment is is the 50% that 100% of product should be catered toward it makes no real sense of course. But I don't think "focus" absolutely must have that meaning. If someone really is suggesting that, they should rightly be criticized, I think.


Isn't this the more useful / realistic way of looking at it? The point of the analogy is that the Prius is just one subset of the company's offerings (like commander is just 1 subset of MTG offerings)
(Prius is to Commander, as a Car is to MTG, in this analogy)

Well, yes, only so many people are going to buy into Magic as a whole and less of them into Commander, of course. The point of course is to "match" your product offers to your market segments, but only to some degree. You simply, of course, cannot match it 100%, because then you have product made for everyone which is actually for no one.


The whole point of the argument that Sperling is making is that if you drop the Pro Tour offering then you create that dip in player numbers, because all of your "Lexus buyers" disappear. They don't magically decide to become "Camry buyers". they just find what they are looking for elsewhere. It should be in the interest and within the capacity of WotC (incompetence notwithstanding) to continue to provide both.

Well, here we lapse to an absolutist take again though. Dropping the Pro Tour mean all the premium (presumably "competitive?") buyers disappear? I'd really need to see some sort of data on this, because it does not strike me as being self-evident in the slightest. In fact, I am more apt to back the null hypothesis here, that the Pro Tour as no measurable effect on "premium sales" at all. Now, I actually don't think that is strictly true, but I think it is much closer to the case (in other words, only a small measurable effect) than to the idea that all "premium sales" are derivative of the Pro Tour.

However, we should note that organized play is not gone and not going away. GP/PT style events are not going away, so competitive play is not going away. So the idea would actually have to be that Pro Players themselves (or maybe we could make a case for a general "Pro Play") are the sole driver. Again, seems unlikely to me and I am apt to consider a null hypothesis as more likely than anything else there (although, again, likely not strictly the case). Of course, the proof will be in the pudding and frankly nothing here will be chiseled into stone. It isn't as if Wizards has not proven perfectly willing to make a change only to change it again in short order (remember two set blocks?).

As always, I am not claiming I know Wizards thinking, or can predict the future as a matter of facts. My aim is, as always, to be skeptical of any and all positions, be it Wizard's, Hasbro's, mine, or other's. I just aim to investigate the seeming plausibility of all sides.

[H]

The current thinking about Hasbro is probably to sack the money reserved for tournaments for more profit from WotC. Instant greed, no long-term plan.

While I loath Hasbro, because they are a fairly terrible company that seems to fail fairly regularly, I kind of doubt this is strictly the case. More likely, from what I have read, I think the aim is to stop subsiding the pipe-dream "Pro Player lifestyle" (which was probably never realistic, never sustainable and likely near-poverty wages anyway) to toss some more into larger-seeming "winnings" for each event. While this might be a net-put-out of less money from WotC, it "looks better" since the payout of events is higher. While I have zero doubt the aim is some form of corporate greed, this new plan may well actually server the purpose of GP/PT style competitive play better, realistically.

We always have to consider that any of us, here, talking about this are necessarily biased, even just by virtue of being here and discussing this.


Sounds exactly like what they're doing right now, given the ever-increasing number of premium products, especially expensive Secret Lairs, to grow their revenue.

Indeed, if you want you can dredge up some of my old posts where I have gone over this before, but that rather irrelevant. I am no soothsayer and I have zero "special" knowledge, I just think the "plan" is quite evident from even just the observable behavior. I would say though, we should likely expect something cyclical though, where once the "cash-in" plan peters out, there will be an "expand the player base" effort put forth again. How long are the cycles? Who knows. Can I guarantee there will be cycles? No, just seems likely to me. But can we really see 10 years into the future. No, I surely cannot and I couldn't 10 years ago either. While something like the EPS cycle is not an actual law or rule, it does help to frame some of the seeming movements. We can only await next stage though, of course.

[Barook]

While I loath Hasbro, because they are a fairly terrible company that seems to fail fairly regularly, I kind of doubt this is strictly the case. More likely, from what I have read, I think the aim is to stop subsiding the pipe-dream "Pro Player lifestyle" (which was probably never realistic, never sustainable and likely near-poverty wages anyway) to toss some more into larger-seeming "winnings" for each event. While this might be a net-put-out of less money from WotC, it "looks better" since the payout of events is higher. While I have zero doubt the aim is some form of corporate greed, this new plan may well actually server the purpose of GP/PT style competitive play better, realistically.
My assumption is that some Hasbro suits saw that this "eSports" thing is a cash cow and Magic (and also D&D in their mind, wtf?) is fitting the bill for that. Hence the whole eSports push, including buying a ridiculous number of bots to push viewership numbers of the streams. From my observation, the non-bot viewership stayed roughly the same. And nobody gave a shit about the MPL. Hence them now burying the whole eSports thing again after seeing it isn't that easy to print cash with it.

[H]

My assumption is that some Hasbro suits saw that this "eSports" thing is a cash cow and Magic (and also D&D in their mind, wtf?) is fitting the bill for that. Hence the whole eSports push, including buying a ridiculous number of bots to push viewership numbers of the streams. From my observation, the non-bot viewership stayed roughly the same. And nobody gave a shit about the MPL. Hence them now burying the whole eSports thing again after seeing it isn't that easy to print cash with it.

Oh boy, don't get me started. I really hate the whole misbegotten conception of "eSports" but let me not drag my bias on that into the here and now.

But broadly I agree, it was a ham-handed attempt and I really doubt it had the effect they hoped it might. Magic, while wildly "popular" is still a very niche game that only some people will really care about. While it was likely "worth" a try to boot-strap it into a LoL or whatever game the kids watch people stream nowadays, it's just not that and it isn't going to become that regardless of how "flashy" you try to make it with effects in Arena or fireworks when they announce some player's name (or whatever they were doing, I really didn't watch much).

Here is a somewhat interesting article on this whole thing (https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/zvimowshowitz-05172021-the-pro-tour-was-magic), but I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I don't really see anything incorrect in it, but I think it might still be some biased thinking. Not that this makes it bad, it's not hiding the bias so it's a good look at what a former pro makes of it.

[phonics]

My assumption is that some Hasbro suits saw that this "eSports" thing is a cash cow and Magic (and also D&D in their mind, wtf?) is fitting the bill for that. Hence the whole eSports push, including buying a ridiculous number of bots to push viewership numbers of the streams. From my observation, the non-bot viewership stayed roughly the same. And nobody gave a shit about the MPL. Hence them now burying the whole eSports thing again after seeing it isn't that easy to print cash with it.

They probably went for esports as part of their plan to enter the market that Hearthstone created. While their esports stuff certainly didn't interest me, I am also willing to admit that I am not the type of player that WOTC cares about, and I don't think they are stopping it because it isn't printing cash, since wotc is doing better than ever now. Whatever their esports thing is now was basically their first attempt when they had no idea what they were doing, and they probably just think they can print even more cash doing something else now.

I think competitive play is sort of like fashion shows, or the space program. Not entirely practical at first glance but they facilitate so much 'growth' elsewhere that they are worth it. Their role is to allow people who are motivated and focused to work on puzzles that wouldn't normally be looked at that trickle down in application to everyone else. In magic terms probably, pro magic provides a kind of innovation that casual players cant exactly spend time on figuring out themselves, it gives them an option to look at blueprints and make their own modifications. It is a good way to keep casual fresh without it devolving completely into tribal battle cruiser gameplay.

I haven't paid attention to any of the current pro play stuff but I thought their pro play was more successful in the past, when teams (that were often sponsored by card stores) competed for points on top of individual season rankings. The big issue is in having a 'tour' when most people aren't willing to fund a trip around the world for teams playing at various locales, I think this was why WOTC stopped the old model because they didn't want to fly people out to pro tours anymore. I think right now Hasbro is more content of cultivating the consumer routine of churning new product as fast as the consumers are willing to buy it, and it isn't exactly clear how pro play leads into that, especially considering commander is probably the de facto casual format now.

[Barook]

I think Magic coverage as a whole got alot less interesting in the past few years, I just can't put my finger onto the exact thing. Production value probably went up (hard to tell, given WotC's number of fuck-ups and technical imcompetence), but at the end of the day, it didn't really improve the experience. I also found the whole winner/loser bracket thing alot less engaging than a clear-cut elimination Top 8. Instead of being on the edge since everything counts, it's a long, drawn-out snooze fest where things matter alot less.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Just saying, alot of casual players also follow the pro-scene.

[Mr. Safety]

I think Magic coverage as a whole got alot less interesting in the past few years, I just can't put my finger onto the exact thing. Production value probably went up (hard to tell, given WotC's number of fuck-ups and technical imcompetence), but at the end of the day, it didn't really improve the experience. I also found the whole winner/loser bracket thing alot less engaging than a clear-cut elimination Top 8. Instead of being on the edge since everything counts, it's a long, drawn-out snooze fest where things matter alot less.

I think the exact thing was when they decided only Standard would be highlighted. I think, but I can't verify, that their best rated events for viewership where Modern and Legacy. New players seem to like playing Standard (if you listen to WOTC) but they seem to *love* watching older, more powerful formats, even if they don't play those formats.

Another part of what makes magic coverage so boring is that WOTC doesn't do a very good job of it, and the formats were full of problems. We've seen so many cards banned out of Standard in recent years. SCG for all of it's peccadillos covered exciting events. I think I can make a decent argument that the end of the SCG legacy events was a big hit to eternal format development.

[Ronald Deuce]

[url=https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/zvimowshowitz-05172021-the-pro-tour-was-magic]

YIKES. That was a ride.

[PirateKing]

I just assume it's because I'm an idiot, but I don't understand the connections people are making between this end of MPL or whatever it is and the game itself.
Like just being able to play in tournaments, generally in increasing skills (demonstrable in REL) is what playing the game is. Prize support is very helpful in making a large tournament successful, and I guess eventually you start entering the realm of invite only levels where you're excused from playing off the street players. Typically the 2 or 3 round byes of a 9 round day 1 event served the same end, players could count on showing up and only playing those who have risen above the median play skill.

From what I've have told to me, the MPL did none of that. The people who were in it were already elites and they were playing just to maintain their status in some entertainment based sink or swim style subsistence model. But that really didn't have anything at all to do with the game itself, right? Honestly asking because I don't know. Was there a MPL set, or cards, or something, that will change in the next set because these people won't be subsidized for playing the game?

Like, okay, not having the Pro Tour is shitty because it genuinely offered a path that, hey, if you're good enough, the best, here's where you'll end up. I mean even if it's once, that seems neato. But that's been gone for a while now. So all this talk in the last week about how the Pro Tour is no more doesn't make sense to me. And the idea of, here, if you're better than most at Magic, here is a full time job for lackluster pay and shit longevity and zero security. That's a shit deal and the fact that it isn't available anymore is who cares?

So is there any impact to be anticipated on the game itself, in the form of the next standard set or some other, tangible game piece level?

I read the linked article three times now, I have no idea what he is saying. Pro Tour good?

[kombatkiwi]

I just assume it's because I'm an idiot, but I don't understand the connections people are making between this end of MPL or whatever it is and the game itself.
Like just being able to play in tournaments, generally in increasing skills (demonstrable in REL) is what playing the game is. Prize support is very helpful in making a large tournament successful, and I guess eventually you start entering the realm of invite only levels where you're excused from playing off the street players. Typically the 2 or 3 round byes of a 9 round day 1 event served the same end, players could count on showing up and only playing those who have risen above the median play skill.

From what I've have told to me, the MPL did none of that. The people who were in it were already elites and they were playing just to maintain their status in some entertainment based sink or swim style subsistence model. But that really didn't have anything at all to do with the game itself, right? Honestly asking because I don't know. Was there a MPL set, or cards, or something, that will change in the next set because these people won't be subsidized for playing the game?

Most people are not suggesting the end of the *MPL* signals the end of the game (at least for those individuals), people are either questioning (in the absence of any concrete details) whether the next competitive WotC offering will be compelling enough to the competitive players, or people are entertaining the hypothetical that any kind of competitive tournament support essentially disappears. (I.e. the consequence of what happens if all of PT/GP etc level events are effectively eliminated, not only the MPL)


Like, okay, not having the Pro Tour is shitty because it genuinely offered a path that, hey, if you're good enough, the best, here's where you'll end up. I mean even if it's once, that seems neato. But that's been gone for a while now. So all this talk in the last week about how the Pro Tour is no more doesn't make sense to me. And the idea of, here, if you're better than most at Magic, here is a full time job for lackluster pay and shit longevity and zero security. That's a shit deal and the fact that it isn't available anymore is who cares?
The paper PT itself has only been gone because of the suspension of in-person play due to covid. We have still had set championships etc on arena which you can qualify for through PTQs on MTGO etc this entire time. People are speculating that if WotC are not budgeting for the MPL anymore (and there is no pathway to qualify to be on it through the rivals league etc) what will happen to the structure of the competitive play system. Will they reallocate that money back to bigger prizes for GP-style events in paper? Will they decide that it's not worth the hassle? If they don't bring back this level of support will a bunch of people quit? These are the kinds of questions that frame the discussion, not "boohoo the MPL is gone". Almost everybody agrees that the MPL was shit except for the people who were actually salaried members of it.


So is there any impact to be anticipated on the game itself, in the form of the next standard set or some other, tangible game piece level?
No, but nobody has even suggested anything like this

[Wrath of Pie]

The issue is that larger prize pools imply higher entry fees, and I don't know how appealing something like a $250 entry fee for a GP on top of a $10-20 entry fee for the MagicFest itself would be. They could turn the old PTQ into the GPQ with first place awarding the GP entry fee, but I would prefer Wizards just get out of organized play and let the stores handle it themselves.

They are definitely not reallocating the money to anything that doesn't keep Hasbro shareholders happy. (WotC as we know it was effectively changed into a subdivision of Hasbro called "Wizards and Digital" so it's more direct now who is really in charge.)

[Ace/Homebrew]

I just assume it's because I'm an idiot, but I don't understand the connections people are making between this end of MPL or whatever it is and the game itself.
The way I read this and understand it is that it will not change or have any influence on the way I play Magic. Someone can confirm that? Or do I have to jump on the 'end of the world' bandwagon?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The way I read this and understand it is that it will not change or have any influence on the way I play Magic. Someone can confirm that? Or do I have to jump on the 'end of the world' bandwagon?

To be fair, it probably didn't change or have any influence on how you played magic when it was still around too because no one cared about the MPL.

[Ahab]

[url=https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/zvimowshowitz-05172021-the-pro-tour-was-magic]


That article was maximum cringe. Simply incredible. And check out this comment by Michael Flores:

Someone: "The Pro Tour was a playground for the privileged. Let’s focus on opening the gates and letting more people play."

Weird statement, but ok. Michael blesses us with this amazing response:
"How do you figure? My generation (just a tad older than Zvi) was a spawing ground for complete and utter excellence across a dizzying breadth of disciplines."

You can't make this stuff up.

[phonics]

The issue is that larger prize pools imply higher entry fees, and I don't know how appealing something like a $250 entry fee for a GP on top of a $10-20 entry fee for the MagicFest itself would be. They could turn the old PTQ into the GPQ with first place awarding the GP entry fee, but I would prefer Wizards just get out of organized play and let the stores handle it themselves.

They are definitely not reallocating the money to anything that doesn't keep Hasbro shareholders happy. (WotC as we know it was effectively changed into a subdivision of Hasbro called "Wizards and Digital" so it's more direct now who is really in charge.)

The failure of pro play most likely has much more to do with their incompetence than pro play not being valuable. I doubt WOTC has discovered something that nobody else knows, there is a reason all of the popular games have form of pro play in place. Right now they are doing this weird thing where they want to keep secondary market prices high so they can sell their premium product for lots of money, but that in turn makes the formats with those cards too expensive to play, so they only showcase standard and whatever extra formats they have come up with like historic/ pioneer/ brawl because true eternal formats are too expensive, which hurts their ability to market their game. High prize pools doesn't necessarily need to translate to higher entry fees, they could adopt a system like other esports (like valve games) where there are store run/ online tournaments (with regular sized prize pools) that feed into wotc sponsored major events where the big prizes are funded in some way through crowd funding via premium product like secret lair and collectors edition products.

[kombatkiwi]

The failure of pro play most likely has much more to do with their incompetence than pro play not being valuable. I doubt WOTC has discovered something that nobody else knows, there is a reason all of the popular games have form of pro play in place.
agree


Right now they are doing this weird thing where they want to keep secondary market prices high so they can sell their premium product for lots of money, but that in turn makes the formats with those cards too expensive to play, so they only showcase standard and whatever extra formats they have come up with like historic/ pioneer/ brawl because true eternal formats are too expensive, which hurts their ability to market their game.
This isn't even necessarily true even with formats that are expensive, the attendance for GP bologna (legacy, ~1500) was way higher than the subsequent 3 standard GPs which were all about 500 players each


High prize pools doesn't necessarily need to translate to higher entry fees, they could adopt a system like other esports (like valve games) where there are store run/ online tournaments (with regular sized prize pools) that feed into wotc sponsored major events where the big prizes are funded in some way through crowd funding via premium product like secret lair and collectors edition products.
Good idea

[phonics]

This isn't even necessarily true even with formats that are expensive, the attendance for GP bologna (legacy, ~1500) was way higher than the subsequent 3 standard GPs which were all about 500 players each



Yeah the gps are great but I think specifically for pro level events like the pro tour Maro said he didn't want legacy as a pro tour format because of card availability issues. I think he said this 5-6 years ago, when underground seas were only ~275$. At this point some modern decks might be pushing close to what the average legacy deck cost back then. Since then they only have had one pro tour event that had legacy as a format, and that was part of the 25 anniversary team event. Its like a thing where viewers love eternal formats, pros love them too, but wotc didn't because it was advertising a product they weren't selling, but maybe that will change.

[Ronald Deuce]

That article was maximum cringe. Simply incredible. And check out this comment by Michael Flores:

Someone: "The Pro Tour was a playground for the privileged. Let’s focus on opening the gates and letting more people play."

Weird statement, but ok. Michael blesses us with this amazing response:
"How do you figure? My generation (just a tad older than Zvi) was a spawing ground for complete and utter excellence across a dizzying breadth of disciplines."

You can't make this stuff up.

I wasn't sure whether the response was satire at first. I kind of wish it had been. The arrogance and obliviousness (in both the article and Flores's patently self-aggrandizing and tangential post) isn't just palpable; it's tangible.

Then again, if we aspire to their level of logical thinking and reason, maybe we should all just form a new, less wrong pro-league. It wouldn't be a spawning ground for complete and utter solipsism across a dizzying breadth of disciplines.

[TsumiBand]

My face after I got through Zvi's article:
https://media.magic.wizards.com/image_legacy_migration/sideboard/images/pttok01/652.jpg

"How will anyone know what good cards are without pros?" Yeah man you got it, I bet in 6 months no one will be able to figure out who's beatdown and in a year we'll all forget what card advantage is. Sheer fucking hubris.

[kirkusjones]

”I don't expect Magic: The Gathering professionals to save the world, but as a group they're in my top five by probability for who might do such saving should the world get saved, and I wouldn't think that about the counterfactual people who would have been such professionals.”

Reads a lot like:


"Being a Scientologist, when you drive past an accident it's not like anyone else. As you drive past you know you have to do something about it because you know you're the only one who can help,"

Side note: rationalist pro-player who strives to be the best needs an editor, because good lord was that a slog.

[Michael Keller]

Reads a lot like:

Side note: rationalist pro-player who strives to be the best needs an editor, because good lord was that a slog.

All-in:

I quit playing Magic over a year ago after playing for almost 27 years and haven't looked back and don't miss the game itself a bit. I always said there was "no such thing" as a "pro" Magic player (through steadfast dissent), and that has finally come to fruition. Because the truth is: it's always been true. The "Pro Tour" was just a 20-something's dream of being young, traveling and playing cards with a desire to stand out amongst their peers with some monetary compensation - and that's fine. Magic: the Gathering is a playing card game that - even the most skilled and gifted players that have eschewed other responsibilities in their lives to play - can't afford to make a living off of unless they have a store or something to that ilk.

I couldn't help but laugh and read how delusional these people are, most in all likelhood narcissistic (you can just tell in their writing). I was even guilty myself of this at one point being way too caught up in it. You see this today more on social media, which has turned into a subscription war of elitists, narcissists, etc. I also believe a large number of these players - especially ones from a time when I played in the 90s where it was more "wild west" - cheated at a disturbing rate. I still stand by my opinion that there are a number of what were considered "non" pro players over the last 25 years that would beat these people in a two out of three set, and that to me - in addition to variance - disqualifies anyone from being above the game.

Now people that hugged that dream of being a "pro" Magic player have to face the harsh reality (lol) of life that Magic isn't everything, nor should it be. Read a book. Go for a walk. Do something productive. Get a certification. Get an education. Do your civic duty or something for your community.

[Rob Hack]

All-in:

I quit playing Magic over a year ago after playing for almost 27 years and haven't looked back and don't miss the game itself a bit. I always said there was "no such thing" as a "pro" Magic player (through steadfast dissent), and that has finally come to fruition. Because the truth is: it's always been true. The "Pro Tour" was just a 20-something's dream of being young, traveling and playing cards with a desire to stand out amongst their peers with some monetary compensation - and that's fine. Magic: the Gathering is a playing card game that - even the most skilled and gifted players that have eschewed other responsibilities in their lives to play - can't afford to make a living off of unless they have a store or something to that ilk.

I couldn't help but laugh and read how delusional these people are, most in all likelhood narcissistic (you can just tell in their writing). I was even guilty myself of this at one point being way too caught up in it. You see this today more on social media, which has turned into a subscription war of elitists, narcissists, etc. I also believe a large number of these players - especially ones from a time when I played in the 90s where it was more "wild west" - cheated at a disturbing rate. I still stand by my opinion that there are a number of what were considered "non" pro players over the last 25 years that would beat these people in a two out of three set, and that to me - in addition to variance - disqualifies anyone from being above the game.

Now people that hugged that dream of being a "pro" Magic player have to face the harsh reality (lol) of life that Magic isn't everything, nor should it be. Read a book. Go for a walk. Do something productive. Get a certification. Get an education. Do your civic duty or something for your community.


I don't like your post. I can agree with it partially, for example with the "read how delusional these people are, most in all likelihood narcissistic", but I cannot agree with the whole of it.

I sense bitterness in your post, and I understand that after leaving Magic after nearly three decades you've spent with it, you can be sad. But at least the ending of your post is a bit too much. "Do something productive. Get a certification." So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to not enjoy their hobby and to not even try to follow their dream, but rather join the rat race asap? "Do your civic duty or something for your community." Unless I'm mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're German, right? Which civic duty is there left for an inhabitant of an occupied country? And for that matter: which civic duty is honest and deserving of respect in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world?

Also, if you left Magic, why do you continue to post about it? And this is not a mere provocative question. If you still feel some kind of a bond with a game that used to be beautiful, interesting, and thrilling, then there are still some options left for you to enjoy it. Some of the casual/nostalgic formats look really nice, and contrary to modern Legacy (or modern Magic in general), they are much cheaper, much more aesthetically appealing, and they miss the most annoying design aspects of the past twenty years.

[Ahab]

I don't like your post. I can agree with it partially, for example with the "read how delusional these people are, most in all likelihood narcissistic", but I cannot agree with the whole of it.

I sense bitterness in your post, and I understand that after leaving Magic after nearly three decades you've spent with it, you can be sad. But at least the ending of your post is a bit too much. "Do something productive. Get a certification." So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to not enjoy their hobby and to not even try to follow their dream, but rather join the rat race asap? "Do your civic duty or something for your community." Unless I'm mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're German, right? Which civic duty is there left for an inhabitant of an occupied country? And for that matter: which civic duty is honest and deserving of respect in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world?

Also, if you left Magic, why do you continue to post about it? And this is not a mere provocative question. If you still feel some kind of a bond with a game that used to be beautiful, interesting, and thrilling, then there are still some options left for you to enjoy it. Some of the casual/nostalgic formats look really nice, and contrary to modern Legacy (or modern Magic in general), they are much cheaper, much more aesthetically appealing, and they miss the most annoying design aspects of the past twenty years.

Germany is not occupied, or maybe I don't get the reference.
I think MK's points are quite good. It is very important to reevaluate your relationship with your habits every once in a while. Being productive might be a economically sounding phrase, but it's more about being aware of what you want to do with your life and acting accordingly. And yes, I am telling a 20 year old that his dream of becoming a magic pro is probably an illusion. Playing magic as a hobby is way less intense than being a 'pro'. If your dream truly is to be a pro: fine. But I think a lot of people are kidn of manipulated into it.

So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to submit themselves to the whims of a public company and their corporate marketing?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to submit themselves to the whims of a public company and their corporate marketing?

Making sure people do not persue their dreams is praxis.

[Rob Hack]

Germany is not occupied, or maybe I don't get the reference.
Then lets agree to disagree.


I think MK's points are quite good. It is very important to reevaluate your relationship with your habits every once in a while. Being productive might be a economically sounding phrase, but it's more about being aware of what you want to do with your life and acting accordingly. And yes, I am telling a 20 year old that his dream of becoming a magic pro is probably an illusion. Playing magic as a hobby is way less intense than being a 'pro'. If your dream truly is to be a pro: fine. But I think a lot of people are kind of manipulated into it.
You are absolutely right, but there's more to "being productive" then just standing by the conveyor belt twelve hours a day. And there are people who's only choice is either a miserable life of a loser or a risky path of a sportsmen, entertainer, or Magic player. For every one thousand men who's dreams didn't become true, there's one man who had what it takes to succeed.
Yes, Magic:pro is probably an illusion. But with determinance, intelligence, and luck, you can succeed. If you set your goals, if you have a willpower, and if you also have strength to constantly reevaluate what you're doing, you can become a pro, at least if you understand that there's more to be done than "testing" decks in your lgs while drinking beer. You need results, you need to learn languages, and you need to trade well. I know teenage millionares (ok, maybe just hundred-thousanders, but you get the point), who got to where they are simply by Magic. And their lives would be much different, and much more poor, if they didn't embark on a dream journey, and rather went to the indoctrination centers formally known as universities, or got themselves welder's license or whatever.



So in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world, your advice for 20-something youngsters is to submit themselves to the whims of a public company and their corporate marketing?
But we all submit to the whims of public companies, don't you realize? When an MIC decides to sell more cluster bombs, you pay for them willingly or not. When pharmakomaffia decides to sell more jabs, you pay for them, willingly or not. So how is the "job" of a Magic pro any different? And why is it bad or impossible to get some money through trades, see the world, learn the languages, etc., while having fun with your hobby?
So yes, my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be to exercise force of will, and follow their dreams while they can. At worst you'll lose a few years chasing a shadow. Isn't it better than live the rest of your life without even trying?

[TsumiBand]

Then lets agree to disagree.


You are absolutely right, but there's more to "being productive" then just standing by the conveyor belt twelve hours a day. And there are people who's only choice is either a miserable life of a loser or a risky path of a sportsmen, entertainer, or Magic player. For every one thousand men who's dreams didn't become true, there's one man who had what it takes to succeed.
Yes, Magic:pro is probably an illusion. But with determinance, intelligence, and luck, you can succeed. If you set your goals, if you have a willpower, and if you also have strength to constantly reevaluate what you're doing, you can become a pro, at least if you understand that there's more to be done than "testing" decks in your lgs while drinking beer. You need results, you need to learn languages, and you need to trade well. I know teenage millionares (ok, maybe just hundred-thousanders, but you get the point), who got to where they are simply by Magic. And their lives would be much different, and much more poor, if they didn't embark on a dream journey, and rather went to the indoctrination centers formally known as universities, or got themselves welder's license or whatever.



But we all submit to the whims of public companies, don't you realize? When an MIC decides to sell more cluster bombs, you pay for them willingly or not. When pharmakomaffia decides to sell more jabs, you pay for them, willingly or not. So how is the "job" of a Magic pro any different? And why is it bad or impossible to get some money through trades, see the world, learn the languages, etc., while having fun with your hobby?
So yes, my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be to exercise force of will, and follow their dreams while they can. At worst you'll lose a few years chasing a shadow. Isn't it better than live the rest of your life without even trying?

lol holy shit

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

pharmakomaffia

[Ronald Deuce]

This is great!

[the Thin White Duke]

But we all submit to the whims of public companies, don't you realize? When an MIC decides to sell more cluster bombs, you pay for them willingly or not. When pharmakomaffia decides to sell more jabs, you pay for them, willingly or not. So how is the "job" of a Magic pro any different? And why is it bad or impossible to get some money through trades, see the world, learn the languages, etc., while having fun with your hobby?
So yes, my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be to exercise force of will, and follow their dreams while they can. At worst you'll lose a few years chasing a shadow. Isn't it better than live the rest of your life without even trying?

I like your style, bro. I don't know if anyone else here knows what the "MIC" is, though. Welcome to The Source.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I like your style, bro. I don't know if anyone else here knows what the "MIC" is, though. Welcome to The Source.

Lol, governments don't pay for anything. What nineteenth century nonsense is this??

[TsumiBand]

I liked it better when threads derailed into the Reprint Policy, now I gotta spend my energy wondering if my humble pursuits in life are low-key enabling the military-industrial complex and Big Pharma. Sadge

https://static.magic.falseblue.com//cards/e9/e9afdf15c575ba177f9521dd75e18c383f730d8a6502fae69ee6fc720e3ce1b3.png

[Rob Hack]

Wow, so many convincing arguments, I officially declare myself defeated.

Seriously guys, are you such a band of unimaginative old farts or is it just some 19th century conservative attitude? Do you also wear sideburns?

I got buddies who not only played MtG on a solid enough level to fly all over the world (for their expense), but who also thought ahead and didn't worry to take risks. Through sheer willpower and self-confidence they acquired large collections of cardboard gold, are completely (or mostly) financially independent, some of them either started their own lgs or work abroad (even as far as Japan). They also gained lots of contacts and valuable insight into economics and law ("sorry madam, I didn't know that Cardracket isn't exempted from taxes, but I'm also sixteen, so you're more than welcome to suck my dick"), while playing the game they like.

I seriously don't understand what's so hard to understand that every successful person is a testimony to success. If you cannot stomach the fact that some people got money by MtG profiteering, at least acknowledge that they exist. Would I recommend to a 20-something youngster to try this? Eh... depends. If she's willing to take it seriously, and if she understands the risks involved, and if her goals are reasonable, hell yeah, go for it. Just do remember that you cannot just fly from GP to GP, collect miserable top64's and call it a success. Unless you're moving towards a real, tangible goal, this means nothing.

This said, I also think that the time window for this kind of risk ended roughly ten years ago. Five years at the latest. With nowadays prices (and obviously the flu situation), a Magic pro dream is absurd.

Btw, my most favourite story closely related to this theme is that of Kirby Dodd, son of Sandra Dodd, the famous unschooler. You may read about him here: https://sandradodd.com/math/unerzogen namely about his journey from being an unschooled 14-yo guy playing Magic in lgs to heading team in Blizzard.



Welcome to The Source.
Thanks.

[TsumiBand]

Lmao my guy, I don't think anyone actually disagrees hard with your main argument, you're just hedging it with weird stuff like agreeing to disagree that Germany is an occupied country and choice phrases like "pharmakomaffia"

I mean I took shots at Zvi for being a douchecaster mage already, my stance on this pro tour stuff is pretty clear. It only ever came about because they were trying to get creative about ways around their Reprint Policy and the whole idea of "let's have a rotating format and convince people to play it by creating a pro tour so kids will want to play the same decks as the pros" was born. I dislike the RP and it's pillars, hence I don't care much for what happens to the Pro Tour. Good riddance.

We usually do just fine talking about Magic without roping in all this tertiary stuff, but also, the language hints at a lot of spicy takes that end up getting threads ubermodded and closed.

I'll try to get us back on topic *clears throat* PROMISORY ESTOPPEL

[Purple Blood]

But we all submit to the whims of public companies, don't you realize? When an MIC decides to sell more cluster bombs, you pay for them willingly or not. When pharmakomaffia decides to sell more jabs, you pay for them, willingly or not. So how is the "job" of a Magic pro any different? And why is it bad or impossible to get some money through trades, see the world, learn the languages, etc., while having fun with your hobby?
So yes, my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be to exercise force of will, and follow their dreams while they can. At worst you'll lose a few years chasing a shadow. Isn't it better than live the rest of your life without even trying?

I like the cut of your jib.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Seriously guys, are you such a band of unimaginative old farts or is it just some 19th century conservative attitude? Do you also wear sideburns?

Aren't you the guy who said I, a citizen, pay for everything my country does? Like my taxes still fund expenditures as if we're not using fiat money and just changing numbers on spreadsheets from negative to positive?

[non-inflammable]

my advice for 20-something youngsters living in a completely sick, corrupt, and dying world would be...

i'm good with everything you said except what i quoted ^^
be the positive not the negative.

[Purple Blood]

Aren't you the guy who said I, a citizen, pay for everything my country does? Like my taxes still fund expenditures as if we're not using fiat money and just changing numbers on spreadsheets from negative to positive?

Eventually we will collapse under the interest of the debt. Does that count as paying for it when your currency is rendered worthless and the country you live in is rendered third-world?

[the Thin White Duke]

Eventually we will collapse under the interest of the debt. Does that count as paying for it when your currency is rendered worthless and the country you live in is rendered third-world?

Nah, we don't have to worry about that. We're in a Modern Monetary Theory world. We can print as much$$ as we want and everything will work out... somehow.
It's like Jay Leno used to say, "Crunch all you want, we'll make more". (Does that show my age?)
Like TsumiBand said, let's get back to convincing ourselves the Reserve list will go away.

[itslarryyo]

Eventually we will collapse under the interest of the debt. Does that count as paying for it when your currency is rendered worthless and the country you live in is rendered third-world?

So why the heck are we wasting time arguing about MTG when we should be hoarding water and getting our malaria shots for when society breaks down.

[Rob Hack]

Lmao my guy, I don't think anyone actually disagrees hard with your main argument, you're just hedging it with weird stuff like agreeing to disagree that Germany is an occupied country and choice phrases like "pharmakomaffia"

Well, I'd guess that a country that's actively hurting its own people must either be occupied or the government is hijacked, but as long as you do not disagree hard with my main argument, then we're fine. Also, I don't think that 300 million of my countrymen woke up one day with an idea "mom, lets buy several billion face masks and then bomb the shit out of some goat herders", but if you prefer terms like "lobby" instead of "MIC" or "big pharma", I will change my vocabulary to more neutral style.



Aren't you the guy who said I, a citizen, pay for everything my country does? Like my taxes still fund expenditures as if we're not using fiat money and just changing numbers on spreadsheets from negative to positive?
You, as a citizen of a particular country surely pay for what your country does, like toddlers incinerated alive in Dresden did. So it's really not just a question of when your currency is rendered worthless and the country you live in is rendered third-world, but also what happens once the accumulated hatred of the third world turns against Murca. But fortunately the MIGA Clown is no longer in business, and Badakathcare Joe is here for the rescue.

[TsumiBand]

This thread is SCG Kansas and your response was Two Explores.

You guys have fun.

[H]

Mod note: OK, that was enough of that. Lets get back to the topic at hand, so if you are not explicitly discussing Magic: The Gathering professional play, take it to Reddit or wherever the kids go nowadays. Thanks.

[Wrath of Pie]

Even Star City Games is having to face reality (https://articles.starcitygames.com/news/scg-announces-forthcoming-content-changes/).