[Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought

[FTW]

I love Thraben U's videos.

And I absolutely love your BW Vaka Nought list.

I am wondering if it would be improved by a light blue splash, replacing some of the StPs and Endings with Brainstorm and having the StPs in the board

Alternatively perhaps by leaning heavier on Dark Ritual and blacks disruptive elements.

I was inspired by Phil's awesome Red Death list which demonstrates just how strong Opposition Agent can be...

So I noticed a few things from Phil's games where Dreadnought kept losing

1) He made the 12/12, but it died a lot (or Hushbringer dies and opponent gets 2-for-1)
He could only make sorcery-speed Dreadnoughts and could not protect them. Black discard wasn't enough protection.
-> Mother of Runes adds protection for Dreadnought/Hushbringer or forces out removal
-> Scroll of Fate allows End Step instant Dreadnought to play around 2-for-1s or sorcery removal

2) He flooded on Hushbringer effects without enough threats to make them good
The 1/x bodies are very bad on their own. Slow clock. Do not trade with much. It was too easy for opponent to hate out Saga, then the deck falls short on threats.
-> Hunted Horror probably needed to have high enough threat density to justify Hushbringers
-> Scroll converts redundant Hushbringer effects into threats
-> Currency Converter converts redundant Hushbringer effects into cards & threats

3) Ran out of relevant cards.
Dark Ritual is fast but card disadvantage. Unless you have the perfect opening 7, it increases risk of blowout by opponent's disruption.
-> Dark Confidant and Castle Locthwain draw cards
-> Scroll of Fate converts bad draws into threats
-> Currency Converter converts bad draws into cards and threats

4) Unstable mana got punished.
Wasteland, Blood Moon, Back to Basics hurt even his mono W deck due to few basics and limited access to white mana.
-> Play stable mana with many basics. The lands matter.

If you splash blue or go WBr, what are the lands? Lands shouldn't be an afterthought. The lands matter.

Maybe Swords in the SB could work. But Phil had many matches that needed removal.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Played UG dressnought tonight to 1-2.
Conclusions: The deck grinds hard and I won all 3 G1s. IMO when you're 3-0 in G1 and 1-4 otherwise you have something, you just need to refine the side. And my Side is quite a mess.
Like always I played what I owned, so no trops yet.

//Dressnought Package
4 phyrexian dreadnought
3 uro, titan of nature's wrath
4 dress down
4 stifle
//Xerox Support
4 ledger sgredder
4 force of will
2 force of negation
3 sailors' bane
2 brazen borrower
4 consider
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
//Land
4 misty rainforest
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
4 breeding pool
1 mysric sanctuary
3 island
2 wasteland
//Sideboard
4 leyline of the void
2 submerge
2 gilded drake
4 leyline of sanctity
1 Archmage Charm
1 Commandeer
1 Lazotep plating

r1 Storm:
g1 Early dreadnought into 3 forces. EZ G2/3 They cast veil and wheeled away my stifles into trash
r2 Esper Stoneblade:
g1 HAd the permission for the exile effects and just kept recasting uro. g2 had less permission and died. g3 bad keep didn't work out at all
r3 Grixis Control
G1/2 Shredder Fed Uro which Fed Bane and just overwhelmed their cards. Only a handful of cards can answer a bane and they had only Sudden Edict. They ran Hidestugu Consumes all, but while it was good at killing dreadnoughts it was bad at stopping banes.

Anyways:
I need 4 Veils in the SB, how did I overlook that? Dunno what else. I'm out of step with legacy and don't know what to tune for.

[FTW]

Interesting deck. I like how Ledger Shredder + 12 cantrips support both Uro and Sailor's Bane.

Unlike most Stiflenoughts you have higher threat density: 16 creatures
Dreadnought's the only 2-for-1
Sailors Bane is good against the spot removal that punishes Stiflenought
Uro's good against non-exiling removal, including stuff that hurts Sailors Bane
Threat variety should mean less weakness to removal decks.

I like the concept!

The manabase and SB are a mess though. Those should be the easiest places to gain win % without any changes to the core idea.

//Lands: 18
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Breeding Pool
4 Island
2 Forest
2 Wasteland

4 Breeding Pool is overkill unless you're on Death's Shadow. To get more access to green, use basics and Vista instead. Less suicidal to your life total. More stable against nonbasic hate.

Cut Mystic Sanctuary too. It's only good in some unique cases.
UR uses it with Expressive Iteration + Daze as a draw engine. You don't have those.
UWx can use it to put Terminus on top of library at instant speed, or get back copies of other good white removal. You don't have those.
Here it's just putting back Force or cantrip. You already have too many ETB tapped nonbasics, so it's even worse than usual.





//Sideboard
4 leyline of the void
2 submerge
2 gilded drake
4 leyline of sanctity
1 Archmage Charm
1 Commandeer
1 Lazotep plating

r1 Storm:
g1 Early dreadnought into 3 forces. EZ G2/3 They cast veil and wheeled away my stifles into trash
r2 Esper Stoneblade:
g1 HAd the permission for the exile effects and just kept recasting uro. g2 had less permission and died. g3 bad keep didn't work out at all
r3 Grixis Control
G1/2 Shredder Fed Uro which Fed Bane and just overwhelmed their cards. Only a handful of cards can answer a bane and they had only Sudden Edict. They ran Hidestugu Consumes all, but while it was good at killing dreadnoughts it was bad at stopping banes.

Don't expect to beat Storm with Forces postboard. They'll bring in a plan: Veil of Summer, discard, or Galvanic Relay. So you need a SB plan for that.
Flusterstorm is good against all three of those.
Spell Pierce too.
If they're on Echo of Eons, you should board in graveyard hate so they can't wheel your hand.
Is Leyline of Sanctity for Storm? Cut those from your SB.

Rounds 2 & 3 are both midrange removal decks. Both are tough matchups for Dreadnoughts. It may be correct to board out some Dreadnoughts and rely more on your other threats. Bane is much stronger in both matchups. But if you draw Dreadnoughts too, then you fall behind in cards. Especially if you try to defend Dreadnought. Spending 2 blue cards to answer their 1 mana spot removal is a losing battle. You'll keep falling behind in resources and they'll eventually have enough removal for Dreadnought. That's what happened in your Round 2. In Round 3 you won because you backed Bane instead of Dreadnought. Against these decks you could bring in another threat like True-Name Nemesis or Scroll of Fate. Both are good against enemy spot removal. You could also bring in answers like Veil of Summer/Flusterstorm to win counter wars.

What's Submerge for? Most Forest decks won't make bigger threats than you, so won't need spot removal against them. Consider 2-3 Run Afoul instead. It answers all the popular big creatures that could race you: Murktide Regent, Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Yorion, Sky Nomad. It also deals with Baleful Strix-types that could block your creatures. It covers more ground that Submerge or Gilded Drake could in the current Legacy format. Top that off with Echoing Truth, which is also good against the cheaty fatties and good against token spam and Chalice too! Run Afoul+Echoing Truth covers more matchups than Submerge+Gilded Drake.

For graveyard hate, you may want something you can actually cast. Surgical Extraction, Soul-Guide Lantern, Phyrexian Furnace (good against UR Delver too), Grafdigger's Cage (good against Elves and Maverick too but bad with Uro). Those cards have more flexibility. Leyline of the Void is just good on turn 0 against all-in decks like AllSpells and Hogaak, but as soon as opponent draws Force of Vigor then you run out of grave hate. Cantrips won't help when you can't cast Leylines.

Sideboard should have some artifact hate too. Return to Nature? Collector Ouphe? Seeds of Innocence? Powder Keg (good against tokens and Elves too)? Normally UG would use Force of Vigor, but your green count is too low (Endurance has the same problem).


//Example sideboard: 15
3 Run Afoul
2 Flusterstorm
2 Veil of Summer
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Return to Nature
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Powder Keg
1 Echoing Truth

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Endurance was in the deck, relying on 12+ cantrips to cheat on green cards. Consider just seemed so much better than Abundant Harvest (putting two cards in the yard for Uro and Bane) that I Ended up cutting them and since like you said I'm already at 16 threats And the deck is crowded I cut out the Ice-Fang Coatls (which, themselves, replaced the Wavesifters in the Saga build I tried a while ago)

I actually liked the mystic sanctuary. The two times it came up it was great once (getting to put a stifle on top so that ledger shredder could conive it into my hand all in response to my own dreadnought) and bad once (one lnad hand where I only drew it as my next land.) Is it really on good with daze?
I understand with your proposed mana I'll have to cut it because I'm also cutting two islands.

For storm I expected to beat them with stifle and was caught by surprise with their new echo of the aeons plan. You can stifle through a Veil and I would have gotten away with it too!

I'll try something closer to your SB for the next iteration. Like I said mine was a mess mostly carried over from like a 5+ year old version of this deck that was on Ancient tomb and Torpor Orb
I'll take it back to the workbench and continue to curse Bane's absence from MTGO.

[FTW]

I actually liked the mystic sanctuary. The two times it came up it was great once (getting to put a stifle on top so that ledger shredder could conive it into my hand all in response to my own dreadnought) and bad once (one lnad hand where I only drew it as my next land.) Is it really on good with daze?

It's just high variance. Sometimes it's great. Other times you get mana-screwed because your Island entered tapped or lost to nonbasic hate and you wish it was a basic Island. Because of that variance, you need a really good payoff to make it worth it.

UR's getting away with it because they operate on low mana (not hurt as much by tapped land) and they use it to get back card advantage (Iteration). The Daze+Mystic+Iteration loop also makes their topdeck Daze less bad. So it's working for them. Your deck doesn't have those synergies or card advantage to return. Plus you have big plays like Uro and Bane, so you can get punished by tapped nonbasic Islands.


For storm I expected to beat them with stifle and was caught by surprise with their new echo of the aeons plan. You can stifle through a Veil and I would have gotten away with it too!

Yeah, Stifle is great vs Storm. A lot of storm decks now use the graveyard (Echo of Eons, Past in Flames, Cabal Ritual) so you may want to board in grave hate too.

But I would not bother with Leyline of Sanctity. Once they have Veil, they can freely set up a win that ignores Leyline. You shouldn't need the white Leyline against anything. Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce + Veil should be better overall against combo and discard, and you can use them against fair blue decks too.


Like I said mine was a mess mostly carried over from like a 5+ year old version of this deck that was on Ancient tomb and Torpor Orb
I'll take it back to the workbench and continue to curse Bane's absence from MTGO.

Oh Ancient Tomb + Torpor? That explains the 8 Leylines. They just don't make sense in a Xerox deck without Tomb.

[FTW]

This is the most fun DressNought deck I've seen in a while. Aeon Bridge updated with new tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNM8_hyh6ZM


//Lands: 20
4 Mosswort Bridge
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
1 Wasteland
3 Urza's Saga

//Creatures: 9
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Griselbrand

//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Veil of Summer
3 Crop Rotation
4 Show and Tell

//Enchantments: 5
4 Dress Down
1 Omniscience

//Artifacts: 2
1 Lotus Petal
1 Pithing Needle

//Sideboard: 15
2 Stifle
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Brazen Borrower
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Blast Zone
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Shadowspear


One of those Saga targets should be Expedition Map. Retrofitter should probably be Currency Converter, if not Map. Stifles could be Scroll of Fate or Flusterstorm.

The mana may need some tweaks. It's very low on blue to make room for cute tutor toolbox tech that isn't relevant often.

[Clark Kant]

Aeon Flux looks rad as hell. I love that list FTW.

AJDAD came in 3rd place on Legacy challenge with this list. This is the third challenge top 8ed with grixis dressnought featuring slip out the back. That card is proving its worth…

Creature (9)
1 Brazen Borrower
2 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
2 Murktide Regent
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Sorcery (7)
3 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder

Instant (21)
4 Brainstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial

Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down

Land (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Abrade
1 Hydroblast
1 Meltdown
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Plague Engineer
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scroll of Fate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Torpor Orb

[Mr. Safety]

Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill creates different play patterns, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill is pretty much unplayable, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.

The thread is still covering like 4 different variants, you might want a new thread for the Grixis dominance.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Or move this thread and move all the non-grixis decks to the "Dreadvelopment Zone"

[Fox]

Moving to established decks, it appears that grixis is the most successful style. Standstill is pretty much unplayable, and Dress Down/Kroxa/new cards make this deck different enough from the old Dreadstill lists.

So the thing about throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks, is that it's a lot easier to "win" if you move the wall closer [smaller shorter events & boosted environments with too much combo in league and too much delver in inbred challenges], have more spaghetti [linear play resulting in shorter leagues], and more people throwing said spaghetti.

What you want to be paying attention to is the pairing luck, because StifleNought can't go positive vs fair decks....and if all it needs in a 6 round event to win 4 matches, it's not exactly challenging if you can randomly roll 3x auto-wins vs your only good matchups (Delver and combo)...but when you can't do that, there isn't a backup plan, b/c there is no source of internal relevance.

On Standstill-based decks, Dreadstill has put up multiple 5-0s with exactly 1 person playing it online recently. It also went 58th in the 300-some player showcase, through a 2 loss tax to banned effects Mind Twist and Timetwister. Standstill and Landstill continue to make money when built correctly and played well.

I'd be very careful about calling something unplayable while simultaneously praising the viability of a strategy which combines a huge fail rate and thousands more dollars in manabase cost.

[FTW]

I agree with Fox about the spaghetti thing.

The Challenge was won by UB Shadow. Both days. That says a lot. That weekend was full of combo and Delver (good matchups for Stiflenought), lacking fair midrange and control (bad matchups). The online meta reacted to a strong combo showing the previous week. When Shadow dominates, Stiflenought can do well too. In another meta maybe not.

Is that enough to qualify for "Established" status? Sure. Established doesn't have to be Tier 1 or good against everything.

But is it enough to say that Grixis Slipnought is better than other version of Dressnought (UR, UG) or Dreadstill (UR, UW)? That's where the spaghetti argument comes in. Maybe UR Dressnought or UR Dreadstill would have done just as well in that Challenge, since they all beat up on combo and Delver. We can't know because no one played them. That's not evidence one is better than the others.

The online meta is small and inbred, affected by influencers and social media. Certain decks attract attention and then get played a lot. How can you compare when one has much more spaghetti thrown? There are many Grixis players playing often. Other variations see very little play. Piproberts and Rood are the only online Dreadstill players, they don't play often, and yet they still have some 5-0s and high win %s.

"Standstill is pretty much unplayable" is not valid when Landstill still makes paper top 8s & a top 16 at SCG Con: https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=34

I think the Grixis discussion should either move to the old Stiflenought thread or start a new thread. It's a distinct archetype from Dreadstill, closer to the old Stiflenought decks. But it's also far from the lists in this OP. This thread has been more about experimenting with a wide range of Dress Down + Dreadnought brews ("Six Shades"). Not focused discussion on the successful Grixis archetype. This is a good place to continue discussing new brews.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

2 established threads entitled:
Dreadstill, Enter the Fist
Grixis Slipknot

1 new/development:
Dreadvelopement Zone: 1 mana 12 power ROI

Ok, I just want to call the slip out the back builds "Slipknot"

[FTW]

Ok, I just want to call the slip out the back builds "Slipknot"

I second the separate "Slipknot" thread.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Brews For Crews for non-slip Dreadvelopement.
Sorry. But this is an opportunity

[Mr. Safety]

So the thing about throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it sticks, is that it's a lot easier to "win" if you move the wall closer [smaller shorter events & boosted environments with too much combo in league and too much delver in inbred challenges], have more spaghetti [linear play resulting in shorter leagues], and more people throwing said spaghetti.

What you want to be paying attention to is the pairing luck, because StifleNought can't go positive vs fair decks....and if all it needs in a 6 round event to win 4 matches, it's not exactly challenging if you can randomly roll 3x auto-wins vs your only good matchups (Delver and combo)...but when you can't do that, there isn't a backup plan, b/c there is no source of internal relevance.

On Standstill-based decks, Dreadstill has put up multiple 5-0s with exactly 1 person playing it online recently. It also went 58th in the 300-some player showcase, through a 2 loss tax to banned effects Mind Twist and Timetwister. Standstill and Landstill continue to make money when built correctly and played well.

I'd be very careful about calling something unplayable while simultaneously praising the viability of a strategy which combines a huge fail rate and thousands more dollars in manabase cost.

My bad, wasn't looking to make a commentary on Standstill, just making the case that this deck is different enough to be it's own thread. That's all, sorry for the bad comment. Editing post now.

[Clark Kant]

I really like the Temur Dressnought list that jcknox just 5-0ed with.

Creature (9)
1 Brazen Borrower
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

Sorcery (7)
3 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder

Instant (20)
4 Brainstorm
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Slip Out the Back
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial

Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down

Land (20)
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Abrade
1 End the Festivities
1 Hydroblast
1 Meltdown
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
3 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scroll of Fate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Torpor Orb

Really well built in my opinion. 4 Stifle, 4 Dress Down, 2 Slip Out the Back seems to be the optimal mix of enablers whether on the Kroxa plan or the Uro plan. The single Stubborn Denial is spicy.

The only surprise to me is the lack of even a single DRC given how well DRC enables Uro, but I guess this route makes all the win conditions immune to Bolt.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This is what I took to the NRG today:
Deck
4 Consider
3 Island
3 Sailors' Bane
2 Brazen Borrower
4 Breeding Pool
4 Brainstorm
2 Force of Negation
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Ledger Shredder
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Ponder
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dress Down
1 Otawara, Soaring City

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Veil of Summer
1 Flusterstorm
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Archmage's Charm
2 Hullbreacher

1-3
Went to time vs delver and never drew a single threat in the third game
Overwhelmed by goblins in two.
Managed to beat up on UW. G1 they relied on Jace and forgot ward, g2 a timely stifle to keep them from getting to 4 and wrathing my dreadnoughts.
Then lost to a host of discard against ant. I'm not good at telling the storm variants apart so I think I should have known it wasn't the galvanic relay version but I didn't and fired off a force too early. G2 they kept hitting me with discard spells and I couldn't keep hiding/setting up counters and they won.
Then the long ride home.

[Fox]

Looking at the list I think you've probably constructed yourself out of a favorable Delver matchup. You can't touch their threats (DRC goes completely unchecked), and Murktide goes unchecked in the air while also being able to check a 7/7 Bane in defensive combat. Right off the bat you've signed up for a race where you can't afford to ever slip up, again particularly vs nonstop DRC surveils into their answers.

Against Goblins, a Cavern -> Lackey is literally game over. Your deck construction never had a chance here. These problems very likely extend to your matchups against anything with Vial.

Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning. Hard to say what happened with the Stifle, but it's pretty unlikely they were sequencing correctly and couldn't have played around it.

ANT is a match the odds dictate you should have won. So how you got the 1-3 is definitely surprising, but by all rights a 1-3 performance is highly expected based on those pairings.

Always have to be careful about StifleNought and just how many bad matchups it carries around. Delver and combo are the only reliably good ones, but you constructed yourself out of a round 1 bye and lost any chance to stay on the farm the Delver train.

Never forget that StifleNought is not intrinsically competitive; rather it is completely reliant on randomly pairing into Delver and combo to generate competitive-looking results.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Against Goblins, a Cavern -> Lackey is literally game over. Your deck construction never had a chance here. These problems very likely extend to your matchups against anything with Vial.
How do you figure? I've got the bigger creatures, 6 free counterspells to deny vial, And then a 1/3 to block their 1/1. On top of Stifle and Dress Down?


Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning. Hard to say what happened with the Stifle, but it's pretty unlikely they were sequencing correctly and couldn't have played around it.
The sequence was on their end step I cast dress down. I think I protected it with a force of will.
My turn I untapped I cast two Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. By the time my turn rolled around they had 3 or 4 lands in play and had (or were going to) swords one of the dreadnoughts. At my end step after taking 12 they fetches.
I, seeing them now with 3 lands, cast stifle on the fetch. They responded with some counter and I cast Veil of Summer. They proceeded to untap, look at their cards and concede.

[Fox]

Delver has 1 mana threats and Daze, so you aren't winning the race by the odds. Probably the closest deck, in terms of just racing Delver without the ability to interact, is Reanimator...and they're all-in on lifelink and pseudo-lifelink (Archon). Since you don't have lifegain near that level (Uro is slow), it becomes more important to have cards like Bolt to either take 2 blue cards or force them into the play pattern of cantripping aggressively to find a replacement dude.

^this kind of racing is high variance on its own, but when you're leaving them on a DRC without dictating how they need to use cantrips (again, to find the replacement dude)...it uh, isn't going to end well. There's already problems with trying to stop a flying Goyf with a 1/3, but you let the DRC go unchecked and you're you're going to be looking at MurkGoyf into MutkGoyf lines (at which point countering the second one doesn't stop them from making a 13/13 out of the first one)...so that stat line advantage has a timer on it. You have a very short window where perfect draws from your deck can steal a game before they start linearly digging for answers...which incidentally also linearly powers out their Goyf train at double speed (1x DRC), triple speed (2x DRC), etc.

Edit: you were talking about Goblins. If their turn 1 is Vial, that would be "lucky" for you. What I see however is a deck that goes Cavern -> Lackey vs a deck with zero answers -> dumps in Matron -> shoots your 1/3 blocker with an uncounterable Munitions Expert. This would be the good scenario where you didn't insta-rip to Show and Muxus in turn 2.

You can't give an opponent an unchecked & uncounterable SnT effect (even if you can buy a little time by discarding Stifle and Dress Down...which takes you off the ability to go bigger with 12/12 since you lost the enabler). In the background, your mana is pretty terrible with 4x duals, which gives them even more agency.
---
On the UW pilot, it sounds like they probably had ample opportunities to deploy that Fetch and/or activate it around Stifle. Even if they had to crack a Fetch into Stifle, it still sounds like they had no shortage of spots to trade FoW on that Stifle without turning on Veil.

This really does sound like an incompetent pilot who did not realize that your main wincon vs them is generating trades with Stifle vs mana. It really does sound like they chose the spot to lose big time to Stifle all on their own...and that is consistent with a player who plays into an onboard "trick" like Ward 4.

They also opened up an event with 2 losses (?) despite playing cantrip cartel and Plow full of Ending +/- 2 banned effects if they had a single MindTwister in there. Short of getting legacy'd twice in a row, this really points to a pilot problem.

[FTW]

How do you figure? I've got the bigger creatures, 6 free counterspells to deny vial, And then a 1/3 to block their 1/1. On top of Stifle and Dress Down?

Agree with Fox.

Goblins -> T1 Caverns Lackey on the play
You can't Force, no 1-mana blocker, no 1-mana removal. All you can do is pray they don't have Muxus, Goblin Grandee = game over. Goblin Ringleader and Sling-Gang Lieutenant are bad for you too.
Your best tool against that line is to pass and hold up Stifle. You can Stifle the ETB trigger or the Lackey combat trigger. But that only saves you from 1 attack/threat, and they may have more gas. Depending on how long you have to hold up Stifle, or if they use mana denial on you, it may stop you from being able to tap out for your 2-3 mana creatures, giving them tempo to get more goblins and go wide.

With Goblins on the draw, you might think the turn 2 1/3 will hold off their 1/1, but they have Goblin-removal for blockers. Or they can go for Goblin Piledriver (protection from Blue), which gets around most of your creatures. They also have Goblin Cratermaker (1: destroy target 12/12 or 15/15).

UR Delver poses the same kind of problem.
UR -> T1 Volcanic DRC on the play
They can protect with Force and Daze and keep the pressure on you before you can land a threat.

Turn 1 Goblin Lackey and Dragon's Rage Channeler are why most fair decks in the format need 1-mana removal. Playing fair without removal leaves a weakness to these strategies, so you need some other plan to fight them. You can't rely on just going over them with big creatures because they have tools to out-tempo you (Wasteland, Port, Vial, Daze, removal).

UG's best plan against DRC + Murktide is Endurance. Maybe you need to up the green count to support Endurance? Otherwise 3x Run Afoul in the SB and/or 1-2 Blue Elemental Blast.



The sequence was on their end step I cast dress down. I think I protected it with a force of will.
My turn I untapped I cast two Phyrexian Dreadnoughts. By the time my turn rolled around they had 3 or 4 lands in play and had (or were going to) swords one of the dreadnoughts. At my end step after taking 12 they fetches.
I, seeing them now with 3 lands, cast stifle on the fetch. They responded with some counter and I cast Veil of Summer. They proceeded to untap, look at their cards and concede.

That's a good line! I think you also got a bit lucky that you drew 2 Dreadnoughts (4 copies) before they drew 2 StP/Ending (7-8 copies), so they had to rely on Jace to answer the 2nd one and lost to mana denial.

I'm surprised you didn't beat ANT. Sounds like bad luck. With 6x Force 4x Stifle 1x Fluster 3x Veil 3x Mindbreak, that seems like an easy matchup.
Edit: Actually I think your SB is overboarded for Storm. You could cut some of those slots to make room for bad matchups.

[FTW]

Looking at the list I think you've probably constructed yourself out of a favorable Delver matchup. Against Goblins,

Even worse: the mana. 4x Breeding Pool + 0 Prismatic Vista + 0 Forest. Delver and Goblins are both Wasteland decks. His deck runs Uro, which forces blue fetch to get UG dual. 2-4 mana creatures are not stopping 1-mana threats.

These matchups should get a bit better going to
4 Misty
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
3 Island
1 Otawara

Fetching basics against Delver/Goblins will prevent some losses to their mana denial



Against UW it sounds more like incompetence out of the opponent in your summary, rather than your deck winning.

Give him credit, because he constructed to avoid losing to StP as badly as Stiflenought usually does (higher threat count, Sailors Bane). He should have a much better UW matchup than any other Stiflenought version.

[Fox]

Give him credit, because he constructed to avoid losing to StP as badly as Stiflenought usually does (higher threat count, Sailors Bane). He should have a much better UW matchup than any other Stiflenought version.

The person I'm not giving credit to is the UW player who apparently had enough mana to pay for ward 4 and killed themselves by playing JTMS instead of removal spell paying for ward.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The person I'm not giving credit to is the UW player who apparently had enough mana to pay for ward 4 and killed themselves by playing JTMS instead of removal spell paying for ward.

Where did I say this? They had 4 mana, tapped out for Jace and downticked. There was no answer for the Bane that turn. Unless they had a wrath in hand (which they didn't because they didn't cast it on their next turn after I added an Uro to the board) they were not in a position to answer the Bane and scooped. Exactly why my deck is running Bane instead of Murktide.

[FTW]

Then lost to a host of discard against ant. I'm not good at telling the storm variants apart so I think I should have known it wasn't the galvanic relay version but I didn't and fired off a force too early. G2 they kept hitting me with discard spells and I couldn't keep hiding/setting up counters and they won.
Then the long ride home.

How did you board against ANT? What went in and what went out? I wonder if that's the problem. Because even if you Force the wrong thing, this matchup seems 98%/2% in your favor.

7 pieces of hate to bring in, plus 2-6 potential more with marginal disruption.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How did you board against ANT? What went in and what went out? I wonder if that's the problem. Because even if you Force the wrong thing, this matchup seems 98%/2% in your favor with your SB choices.
This is based on memory after malding over it after the match.
So G1 I've lost at least a stifle and i assume something else to another duress and the board is we each have some number of lands, I have a dreadnought in play and a Force of Negation in hand. On his turn he looks like he's going for it. My thought process is that if it is galvanic relay he'll be able to go off again next turn and my force won't be enough so I cut him off here.
I untap, halve his life total, and he casts a few rituals into ad naus and storms off.
Out: 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 4 Dress Down
In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher
I keep a hand with at least; Brainstorm, Consider, Ponder and Stifle. T1 I get the stifle taken, and t2 I ponder and put force in position 3 (so that it will be the card under the car I'd draw for turn, but still accessable off the brainstorm and consider.), he again takes something on his turn.
My turn 3 I forget what I did, but I made sure to leave up 1 mana for the cantrip and to take the counterspell. He casts another discard spell, takes one cantrip, and the casts a ritual. His hand is pretty full so I felt i had no choice but to let it go off but then he casts another duress. So now my only interaction is Brazen Borrower, which only works if he doesn't kill me this turn. He kills me this turn.

[FTW]

Out: 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 4 Dress Down
In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher

I think this is a mistake.

Dreadnought is a very powerful tool against combo. Cheap efficient clock. They don't have removal or blockers. This is the 12/12's best match!

I would go
In: 3 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Veil of Summer, 2 Hullbreacher, 1 Flusterstorm
Out: 3 Sailors' Bane, 4 Ledger Shredder, 1 Uro, 1 Consider

Basically cut the slow midrangey stuff and rely on the fast Dreadnought kill. Otherwise they get too much time to sculpt and disrupt.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Oh yeah I brought in fluster too. I wanted threats I could cast on their own and I kept the cantrips so I could better sculpt my hand against theirs.

[FTW]

Oh yeah I brought in fluster too. I wanted threats I could cast on their own and I kept the cantrips so I could better sculpt my hand against theirs.

The standalone threats are slow clocks though (gives them time to get a 2nd wind) and you don't care about 2-for-1s vs combo. Sailors Bane can't kill until turn 7ish? Stiflenought kills turn 4. The bigger threats also mean tapping out on your main phase (harder to hold up mana for tricks). Dreadnought is mana-efficient. You can hold up Veil, Fluster, Stifle, Brainstorm... while -12ing them. You can't do that while tapping down to play the bigger threats. Ledger Shredder doesn't cost much mana but it's a very slow clock, so maybe that's the cut.

Combo is one of the best matchups for Dreadnought. If you don't keep in Dreadnought for combo, why even play Dreadnought instead of Bant Uro or RUG Ledger Shredder?


I untap, halve his life total, and he casts a few rituals into ad naus and storms off.

He went off with Ad Naus from 8 life? After you Forced an important spell last turn? He must have gotten lucky too.

[Fox]

Where did I say this? They had 4 mana, tapped out for Jace and downticked. There was no answer for the Bane that turn. Unless they had a wrath in hand (which they didn't because they didn't cast it on their next turn after I added an Uro to the board) they were not in a position to answer the Bane and scooped. Exactly why my deck is running Bane instead of Murktide.

Ah, so they were just giving out free info while dead on board. I thought they'd at least have had 5 mana.
---
Against ANT you misboarded. The trend you want to watch out for is boarding in all this 1-mana interaction while simultaneously tapping yourself out of 1 mana interaction. Kinda self-defeating.

Your best line is always going to be: I have mana on your turn ANT -> you didn't go off -> EoT Dress Down -> Dreadnought -> guess who has 2 thumbs and is only down 1 mana while passing back the turn.

The worst card in your deck vs ANT is Ledger Shredder by a wide margin. It makes it really hard to use instant speed draw to hide a FoW with Brainstorm and draw into it effectively when you give your opponent the ability to force you to draw into the pile. After this you don't need 6 slots of Uro and Bane, so trim one and one. Bring in 3x Veil, 1x Fluster, 2x Breacher. You don't need more when your deck has 4x FoW, 2x FoN, 4x Stifle. Really the only thing you need to do is stop tapping out. If you think you need more, bring in Archmage Charm before Mindbreak.

The SB is a mess and wastes 11 slots (I only agree with Scroll and Veils). You already killed combo by playing Stiflenought...then you double-killed combo....then you killed it 3 and then 4 times over. Regain your ability to farm Delver maindeck and work on other matchups with the SB.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ah, so they were just giving out free info while dead on board. I thought they'd at least have had 5 mana.
They're not here. You don't have to keep trying to score a sick dunk here. Also you're wrong: They weren't DOB, they got to untap twice. Once with just sailors' bane in play, (where they punted downticking jace) and then the next turn.
You're coming off incredibly petty here constantly trying to get everyone convinced this absolute stranger, based on a sample size of two games you didn't even see, is awful. They, like every other opponent I played that day, was unfamiliar with Sailors' Bane. It's not on MTGO and in every match I've played, including against the grinders at my LGS, my op has had to read it.


---
Against ANT you misboarded. The trend you want to watch out for is boarding in all this 1-mana interaction while simultaneously tapping yourself out of 1 mana interaction. Kinda self-defeating.

Your best line is always going to be: I have mana on your turn ANT -> you didn't go off -> EoT Dress Down -> Dreadnought -> guess who has 2 thumbs and is only down 1 mana while passing back the turn.

The worst card in your deck vs ANT is Ledger Shredder by a wide margin. It makes it really hard to use instant speed draw to hide a FoW with Brainstorm and draw into it effectively when you give your opponent the ability to force you to draw into the pile. After this you don't need 6 slots of Uro and Bane, so trim one and one. Bring in 3x Veil, 1x Fluster, 2x Breacher. You don't need more when your deck has 4x FoW, 2x FoN, 4x Stifle. Really the only thing you need to do is stop tapping out. If you think you need more, bring in Archmage Charm before Mindbreak.

I didn't realize the dreadnought plan was so good vs ANT


The SB is a mess and wastes 11 slots (I only agree with Scroll and Veils). You already killed combo by playing Stiflenought...then you double-killed combo....then you killed it 3 and then 4 times over. Regain your ability to farm Delver maindeck and work on other matchups with the SB.
So what would you do with the other 11?


If I added Endurance I would cut shredder for it, but mygreen card coult is only 7, so either my side has more greens for Endurence, or I find a green replacement for consider (which is acting as a mid-teir enabler for uro and Bane)

[FTW]

I didn't realize the dreadnought plan was so good vs ANT

A single -12 makes it very hard to win with Ad Nauseam. Meanwhile you barely spent any mana and can threaten interaction all day.

Their only chance is if you have slow clocks that tap you out of interaction (Ledger Shredder, Uro). Then you either tap out (they have a window to go off) or you don't pressure their life total (they have time to get lucky drawing enough disruption and gas to go off). Then they can lucksack into more discard than you have answers and try to create a window to win. But statistically that should not happen as long as you don't tap out and pressure their life total. Especially with that much SB, the matchup should be >90% in your favor.

I am torn between whether Bane or Uro are worse against ANT. Uro taps you out more (1UG+UUGG or 2-card combo), but also draws cards and gains life. Both pressure their resources to go off. Bane could be dead longer and doesn't draw cards, but eventually it could tap you out less. Fox's -1 each seems reasonable. Flash on both Borrower and Hullbreacher is amazing.


So what would you do with the other 11?
If I added Endurance I would cut shredder for it, but mygreen card coult is only 7, so either my side has more greens for Endurence, or I find a green replacement for consider (which is acting as a mid-teir enabler for uro and Bane)

The combo match is so favorable that you don't need a narrow card like Mindbreak Trap. Trap is for aggro decks with no other hope. Cut Mindbreak and gain 3 free slots. Flusterstorm is probably unnecessary for Storm, but it helps against fair blue so 1 copy seems OK.

Leyline of the Void is also overkill. Look at the SB I suggested on the last page for some ideas of tools. Fox may have better ones. The main thing is to run tools that apply in more bad matchups, instead of going 4x narrow GY hate + 4x narrow storm hate like a linear aggro deck.

Powder Keg - kills Chalice @ 1, 8-cast artifact lands & 0s, Elves, Goblins, D&T dorks, token swarm, Ensnaring Bridge

Surgical Extraction - Reanimator, Loam, Hogaak, Uro, random combos (extract wincon), decks with bad mana (Stifle/Waste + extract fetch or dual)
It works against the main graveyard decks, but isn't a dead draw like Leyline and it has utility against other decks too.

Return to Nature - Chalice @ 1, Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Loam, Reanimator, OmniTell

Run Afoul - Murktide, Marit Lage, Griselbrand, Archon, Emrakul, DRC... basically every Tier 1 creature that could race you. Also answers flash Ice-Fang Coatl before it can kill Dreadnought/Bane. Not joking about this card. Underrated tech for UG.

Back to Basics (if you clean up your manabase) - Lands, 12Post, Eldrazi, MUD, greedy Saga+Tomb decks, greedy multicolor decks

Then you need some slots for removal-heavy fair midrange. Fox may have some ideas for UG.

[Fox]

So first things first, you don't get to play the two best green cards [Endurance, FoV] with this low of a green count. The suggestions made by @FTW would all be improvements, except for B2B b/c every deck you'd want it against plays Boseju, Who Shatters All. It would be like playing Skylasher as your "answer" to Murktide, when you know it already failed b/c they play Bolt. Return to Nature is pretty good as a replacement for FoV.

The main thing I would do is never play flying Augur of Bolas as my "answer" to flying Goyf. Ledger Shredder is not good enough for this format, and the only people who can disguise that simple fact have a stack of red blasts in their SB and usually have a playset of DRC on top of that. Go one step further and realize they aren't using this card selection to get 1-shot by a 1cmc creature kill spell. It's not a playable card in Dreadnought, and I would extend that to the entire format were it not for the fact that Goyf dies to Pyroblast...for now.

The very first thing this deck needs isn't SB tuning, but rather the maindeck needs to go back to auto-winning vs Delver, and green just isn't going to do that. Ice-Fang looks better vs Murktide...except that they just discard Bolt and you still take 8...and this doesn't really help your win condition (combat damage). You're also not built to use the 1cmc 3/4 Goyf [Reclaimer]. You kinda missed all the reasons to play green, just to add Uro (and push the mana beyond the point of no return). Luckily you didn't sink $2400 into Trops for this.

The fix for these StifleNought lists is always going to be "just play UR Dreadstill". We have DRC, we have 1 card delirium (Saga find suicide Nought), we get SDT 2.0 (aka Currency Converter), we have Lavamancer, we can get permanents down on 1 mana, we can win without combat step, both DRC and Lavamancer synergize with Bane, our mana is better, we get to spam red blasts, Delver is a bye, etc...

The best thing you can do with UG is going to have to be something unique. The only thing that has looked interesting here for the last two years is the core of Reclaimer, Uro, GSZ + Lotus Field + Nissa/Karn + the green density to run FoV/Endurance with Nought. The issue is that green is so bad at interacting that you're better off running 2x Verdict (white mana only coming off Lotus), and pitching it to FoW/FoN otherwise. It is quite fun however to hit people with 5/5 hexproof while opponents never stop trying to Wasteland or Port it.

^now contrast that level of synergy where we're able to tutor Lotus Field, immediately have 3 lands in GY (assuming we activated Reclaimer or a single Fetch), dump it in for free off Uro trigger (generate escape fuel), get to 2 lands quicker with a GSZ for Arbor...and all of that to cast our PWs which make 5/5 hexproofs, have GY recursion loops (Nissa), have SB/exile recursion loops (Karn). Now you just add Nought and Stifle and you're adding in the ability to cheat Lotus Field into play, you gain win % vs combo, and Karn + Nought stuff is immune to Surgical. What exactly is there for opponents to interact favorably with, when this is just and endless stream of interchangeable combo pieces? Now compare that to just adding Uro to gift opponents easy axis of attacking your mana and/or kill spelling. Stop giving opponents easy targets.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

"Dim-Bulb's stupid horns . . . that's huge," Jaya whispered. A Phyrexian dreadnought. It had to be the largest one she'd ever seen. "How are we supposed to fight that?"

Hopes: Up.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem0U_ffJeg&ab_channel=BoshNRoll
Boshing nd rolling to a 5-0 with BUG Dressnought

I haven't watched yet, I think his goyf choice is a mistake in an uro/dress down build but it seems to pay off for him

[Clark Kant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem0U_ffJeg&ab_channel=BoshNRoll
Boshing nd rolling to a 5-0 with BUG Dressnought

I haven't watched yet, I think his goyf choice is a mistake in an uro/dress down build but it seems to pay off for him

He went undefeated ie 10-0 with no losses, despite playing a suboptimal list? Thats awesome.

Hes very good at playing Dreadnought.

Last time Bosh played this deck (an year ago), he went 4-1 with the only loss being to Doomsday. Its crazy unlucky that they lost to Doomsday with a list that played 4 Dress Down 4 Stifle 4 Daze 4 FoW 1 Flusterstorm 1 FoN etc.

[Clark Kant]

This past weekend was an eventful one for Dressnought. Looks like mtgoers figured out how well dressnought preys on all the delver, combo and urzas saga decks running around on mtgo.

Easymoneymarksman 5-0ed with the RUG list below.

Creature (8)
1 Brazen Borrower
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

Sorcery (7)
3 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder

Instant (20)
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial

Enchantment (5)
4 Dress Down
1 Sylvan Library

Land (20)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Sanctuary
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Force of Negation
1 Fury
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Meltdown
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Torpor Orb

Ajdaddd420 came in 19th on legacy challenge with UR Dressnought

Creature (11)
1 Brazen Borrower
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
2 Murktide Regent
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder

Instant (21)
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
1 Slip Out the Back
4 Stifle
1 Unholy Heat

Artifact (2)
2 Mishra's Bauble

Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down

Land (18)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Steam Vents
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Pyroblast
1 Abrade
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meltdown
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Price of Progress
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Scroll of Fate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Torpor Orb

And boshnrolls 5-0 with BUG Dressnought also got posted…

Creature (13)
2 Lazav, the Multifarious
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

Sorcery (7)
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

Instant (18)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Snuff Out
3 Stifle

Artifact (1)
1 Scroll of Fate

Enchantment (2)
2 Dress Down

Land (19)
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Scroll of Fate
2 Force of Negation
2 Force of Vigor
2 Hydroblast
3 Plague Engineer
1 Run Afoul
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer

[Clark Kant]

Andreas Mueller just 5-0ed with the RUG Dressnought list below

Creature (9)
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Fury
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

Sorcery (8)
4 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder

Instant (19)
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial

Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down

Land (20)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Sanctuary
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Torpor Orb
1 Unlicensed Hearse

Donhaggis 5-0ed with BUG

Creature (13)
2 Lazav, the Multifarious
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Sorcery (7)
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
Instant (18)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
Enchantment (3)
3 Dress Down
Land (19)
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Force of Negation
1 Hydroblast
1 Null Rod
3 Plague Engineer
2 Run Afoul
1 Seeds of Innocence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Dreadnought status: Back, Babybe?

[Fox]

Dreadnought status: Back, Babybe?

It never left.

Still it's important to always point out that winrate boosting off farming combo (online leagues) and Delver (low round total online challenges) does not tell the story of how things work in real-length events or in paper where things get a lot more expensive and the easy matchups quickly disappear.

If you have access to the Twitch VoDs from Legacy_Council over the past week where he's on StifleNought. You can see just how little removal and just how much combo is in the league setting; it's comical. 3-4 of every 5 matches are consistently combo.

Not too hard to go 2-0 after 3 free combo wins and publish a 5-0. Nor is going 1-2 on top of three Delver autowins to make a top 32 appearance. Still a bad idea to try to pull this stunt in paper.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Would it kill you to have a positive thing to say for once?

[Fox]

Would it kill you to have a positive thing to say for once?
It's neither positive nor negative.

The winrate is coming the overrepresentstion of two matchups, not from internal viability. There are a lot of duals in these decks, leading to expensive miscalculations when you try to port it to paper.

More than that it creates the impression of an expensive barrier to entry, when the Dreadnought archetype really only costs around 2k with a 1x dual requirement.

The metrics are: long-term players come from paper & the way we increase long-term players is beating out other blue decks on price of entry. This is how the recruitment engine works.

So when @Clark Kant is getting all hyped about how good of a week it was for Dreadnought tourism, it was a bad week for long-term pilot recruiting. The entire legacy community is relentlessly whining about UR Delver (the reason StifleNought can top32 a 6 rounder).

Once that complaining turns into a ban, the Dreadnought tourism industry is going to crash, and all the tourists will fade away to different decks. Then all the Dreadstill community has to clean up the beach (in this metaphor the litter on the beach is the association of Dreadnought with costing $5k to $7k to build).

I'm neither being positive nor negative in the analysis. It's merely an atonal interpretation of how this story will end. What you are picking up as negativity is the lack of enthusiasm about cleaning up after tourists. It would be nice to be positive and happy about the StifleNought shenanigans afoot, but it comes at the highest of prices in the long-term: less dedicated pilots.

If you have an alternative set of metrics that leads to long-term growth in Dreadnought pilots, please share.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's neither positive nor negative.
So when @Clark Kant is getting all hyped about how good of a week it was for Dreadnought tourism, it was a bad week for long-term pilot recruiting.
Get a better gimmick.

[Clark Kant]

Get a better gimmick.

Dont bother. He has an agenda revolving around Dreadstill. Thats why the ever shifting argument. First it was… Dreadstill is a way better deck than Dressnought, just no one can play Dreadstill correctly and thats why it doesnt win as much… then it became Grixis Dressnought lists are faring well, that one shade of Dressnought should be made a seperate thread. Now that all the other five shades of Dressnought are also doing well… it became…. well the deck is only good on mtgo, it wont do as well at paper events. Once it starts seeing play in paper events, it will be something else. Better to just add him to the ignore list and move on. The decks performance speaks for itself.

Dressnought feasts on combo decks, delver decks, urzas saga decks and all the random jank decks that are ubiquitous in the paper meta. It will do just fine at paper tournaments as well. It just takes time for mtgo decks to start getting adopted by paper pilots, the same way it took time for a new card like Dress Down to be adopted by mtgo pilots. I dont see how anything short of a ban of dress down or some eternal only set that is packed with blue hate that would make this deck uncompetitive.

[FTW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem0U_ffJeg&ab_channel=BoshNRoll
Boshing nd rolling to a 5-0 with BUG Dressnought

I haven't watched yet, I think his goyf choice is a mistake in an uro/dress down build but it seems to pay off for him

I watched it and now understand why Goyf. Goyf is Murktide that doesn't die to Pyroblast. It was to have a cheap standalone threat that plays around the Pyroblast-heavy meta (the Grixis version had Murktide in that role). Ledger Shredder, Borrower, etc all die to Pyroblast and Bolt. Goyf is awkward with Dress Down, but good in some cases. Maybe it should just be Gurmag Angler.

[Clark Kant]

I watched it and now understand why Goyf. Goyf is Murktide that doesn't die to Pyroblast. It was to have a cheap standalone threat that plays around the Pyroblast-heavy meta (the Grixis version had Murktide in that role). Ledger Shredder, Borrower, etc all die to Pyroblast and Bolt. Goyf is awkward with Dress Down, but good in some cases. Maybe it should just be Gurmag Angler.

Yes Tarmogoyf absolutely makes sense. More so than Angler. Angler doesnt belong in a list with 2 Lazav and 4 Uro.

There was only one clearly mistaken choice in that build. The decision to only play 2 Dress Down was absolutely 100% incorrect. Dress Down is THE best card in any list with 4 Dreadnought and 4 Escape Titans. That is doubly true as long as Urza’s Saga remains the best land in legacy and Doomsday remains the best combo deck in legacy. Wiping out constructs after your opponent sunk. 6 mana and two turns into them is a massive and game winning tempo swing. There are also plenty of situations where Dress Down enables multiple Dreadnoughts or a Dreadnought and an Uro in the same turn which enables wins in a single combat step.

Step one in improving the build would be to cut the Scroll of Fate and either the Flusterstorm or an Abrupt Decay to make room for the 3rd and 4th Dress Down. Flusterstorm is an awesome sideboard card but it likely doesnt belong in the maindeck, especially given how well Dragon Stompy and similar prison strategies are doing. Similarly, there is no reason to maindeck 3 Abrupt Decay or a Snuff Out in a meta where Snuff/Decay is useless against a number of different decks.

I would go…
-1 Scroll of Fate
-1 Snuff Out/Abrupt Decay
+2 Dress Down

I would personally also cut a Lazav and a Goyf for 2 Baleful Strix but that is a meta dependant call based on how many decks side in Melt Down.

[FTW]

Yes Tarmogoyf absolutely makes sense. More so than Angler. Angler doesnt belong in a list with 2 Lazav and 4 Uro.

Tarmogoyf is bad with Dress Down though. Sailors' Bane might be a better choice, though it could be countered by Pyroblast.


There was only one clearly mistaken choice in that build. The decision to only play 2 Dress Down was absolutely 100% incorrect. Dress Down is THE best card in any list with 4 Dreadnought and 4 Escape Titans.

Fewer Dress Down was probably because of Goyf. This problem is fixed if they play a different standalone threat.

I agree there should be more Dress Down and that Dress Down is amazing with Dreadnought. But Dress Down + Uro is bad. You're better off just paying the 1UG to gain 3 and draw a card, then escape it. Or use the Stifle trick off the extra land drop. Dress Down should only be a back-up plan vs heavy graveyard hate (Leyline of the Void). Dress Down + Kroxa is good, because Kroxa's ability is weak so you're happy to just make a 6/6. But Uro's ability is so strong that you would rather have the ability unless you need to dodge grave hate.



Step one in improving the build would be to cut the Scroll of Fate

Scroll is very strong with Dreadnought though. It's also a great way to convert bad topdecks into threats.

You could cut 1 Lazav and Fluster for the 2 Dress Down.


I would personally also cut a Lazav and a Goyf for 2 Baleful Strix but that is a meta dependant call based on how many decks side in Melt Down.

Where do you find Strix/Coatl useful? You often include 2 Coatl or 2 Strix. But the winning lists never run those cards. Strix/Coatl don't do anything to advance the game plan. They aren't even great at defense (do not kill Marit Lage, the combo fatty that could race 12/12).

Brazen Borrower is much stronger in that slot. It has the 2-mana "remove target fatty" mode that actually kills Marit Lage, it bounces hate pieces like Chalice @ 1, and it's a good flash threat.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Counterpoint: Coatl is green, and lets you hit the critical density to run Endurance.
Making the threat suite: Uro, Dreadnought, Bane (over goyf) Endurance And Coatl then acts more as a cantrip. However the reason I haven't pulled the trigger on this build is then you're only on Ponder, Brainstorm, Force, Stifle, + 1 more slot for bane.

[Fox]

Dont bother. He has an agenda revolving around Dreadstill. Thats why the ever shifting argument. First it was… Dreadstill is a way better deck than Dressnought, just no one can play Dreadstill correctly and thats why it doesnt win as much… then it became Grixis Dressnought lists are faring well, that one shade of Dressnought should be made a seperate thread. Now that all the other five shades of Dressnought are also doing well… it became…. well the deck is only good on mtgo, it wont do as well at paper events. Once it starts seeing play in paper events, it will be something else. Better to just add him to the ignore list and move on. The decks performance speaks for itself.

Dressnought feasts on combo decks, delver decks, urzas saga decks and all the random jank decks that are ubiquitous in the paper meta. It will do just fine at paper tournaments as well. It just takes time for mtgo decks to start getting adopted by paper pilots, the same way it took time for a new card like Dress Down to be adopted by mtgo pilots. I dont see how anything short of a ban of dress down or some eternal only set that is packed with blue hate that would make this deck uncompetitive.

I have played thousands of games with Stiflenought, and fact of the matter is you need something to push removal-based decks out of the format. Your wincon isn't tied to "I'm a skilled player" or "my deck is great", it is completely bound to dodging bad matchups. What that means is that you need overwhelming combo presence (think DTT Omni, Breach, ValkiCannon) to clean up the format for you...otherwise you need to find a boosted environment (like 5 round leagues featuring outlandish amounts of combo, or 6 round challenges where you reasonably expect to roll 3/6 Delver).

My argument does not change. Dreadstill is a better deck, and in the last Showcase with >300 players it placed 58th. Around the time of that Showcase it generates multiple 5-0s with exactly one online player attempting few leagues. It's the same deck that top 8'd the biggest event (again Showcase) when Covid was still new. Now who do you suppose was on the discord call the whole event coaching to those finishes the whole way? hint: me. I happen to know exactly what I'm talking about when I talk about how good Dreadstill is, and how long it takes to learn. Specifically I know what the fail rate is. I know exactly how much spaghetti DreadStill is throwing at the wall...but on StifleNought you don't. Your only focus is on the finishes [the spaghetti that sticks to the wall], while completely ignoring number of pilots throwing spaghettis, rate of throwing spaghetti, or moving the wall closer.

The fail rate is the most important predictor of competitive outcome, and StifleNought has a high fail rate. So while the enthusiasm about how good of a week it was is great, I'd really encourage you to seek out those VoDs of Legacy_Council from that same week. He's much better than the average player and he gets fed combo after combo on a silver platter, and in that same week he's not able to make a 5-0 despite multiple easy-mode leagues. While mtgo leagues will always financially incentivize linear combo overrepresentation, the Delver overplaying online in small challenges is not an inexhaustible resource. With a ban comes the hard times, and you don't have a plan for that.

The fact of the matter is WotC probably won't make the right call and ban Day's, Echo, and Daze. They'd go after Expressive before that, and that is going to mean no more silly stats like 30% of top 32 being Delver. The fair decks are going to come back in, and with them all the removal. So enjoy the good times, because you're rapidly approaching legacy on hard mode. So keep some stats and throw out every outcome vs Delver or combo, and get back to us on your real failrate.

Also while you're at it, pick a card (and the fat stack of duals behind it). Thing in the Ice $17, Shredder $24, Goyf $20 (quick Goldfish search on prices). Like every time you post it's some new $10-20 chase card...and like where is DRC? Why is it taking you guys so long to get on board on turn 1 with a $2 card.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think you need to understand that this isn't the space to just keep saying "play a different deck". It's the space to improve, talk about, and examine this deck. We get it. You think this deck is good only for the MTGO meta, but it's very tiresome to have you keep coming in here and shitting on people.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Anyways, A good SB card for BUG lists:
http://mythicspoiler.com/dmu/cards/tearasunder.jpg

[FTW]

Your wincon isn't tied to "I'm a skilled player" or "my deck is great", it is completely bound to dodging bad matchups.

That's what "metagaming" is and how a large number of players select decks for events. They pick a deck that looks good for the current metagame (hoping to dodge underrepresented bad matchups), changing decks as the metagame changes, rather than playing 1 deck always. What you call "tourism" is what most players view as normal deck selection.

If Stiflenought is good in the current online meta, due to Delver's dominance presence and high combo presence in Leagues, then it's a rational choice for spaghetti throwing. Most of those players don't care if the deck will still be good in a future removal-heavy fair meta (e.g. past Miracles/Grixis/D&T era). They care if it's good now, and will switch if the meta changes. Normal deck selection. Especially if they're online players and already have the staples, there's minimal entry cost and not much wasted to pivot to another Xerox deck.

Your concerns of cost and longevity only matter for Paper players new to Legacy buying from scratch. The results posted are from online play.

So we might as well keep this thread focused on how to optimize Dressnought/Stiflenought in the current meta, operating under that constraint. "Play Dreadstill instead" is as irrelevant as "play Depths instead". Speculation over future meta changes after uncertain bans isn't relevant either. MindTwister may not get banned. If they ban something from Delver, it may not be what people expect. Meanwhile a new set will print something even more broken.

[Clark Kant]

Anyways, A good SB card for BUG lists:
http://mythicspoiler.com/dmu/cards/tearasunder.jpg

Thats a very sweet card. It has to compete with Abrupt Decay and Assassins Trophy. Not having Split Second and needing 4 mana to take out creatures and walkers are both big minuses but the fact that it exiles, doesnt ramp the opponent and doesnt care about the cards cmc are very nice bonuses. I will probably replace an Abrupt Decay with it as a start and see how it fares.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Why pay 2 for dress down when you can pay 4 for Ertai!
https://mythicspoiler.com/dmu/cards/ertairesurrected.jpg

[Clark Kant]

Why pay 2 for dress down when you can pay 4 for Ertai!
https://mythicspoiler.com/dmu/cards/ertairesurrected.jpg

Yeah, its unplayable at 4 mana.

Magicverse placed 14th in the weekend legacy challenge with RUG Dressnought

Creature (7)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

Sorcery (8)
4 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder

Instant (21)
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial

Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down

Land (20)
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Sanctuary
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Hydroblast
1 Meltdown
2 Pyroclasm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Unlicensed Hearse

Its a pretty standard list but with a single maindeck Pyroblast and a single maindeck Stubborn Denial.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What's the thread's thoughts on traverse the ulvenwald?
Land and instant are easy. Sorceries we have, Enchantments, creatures, we also have.
I was watching the NRG yesterday and today and I just feel like jamming Endurance into this deck, no matter the cost, is the play I just need to find the right green cards that play along.

[Clark Kant]

What's the thread's thoughts on traverse the ulvenwald?
Land and instant are easy. Sorceries we have, Enchantments, creatures, we also have.
I was watching the NRG yesterday and today and I just feel like jamming Endurance into this deck, no matter the cost, is the play I just need to find the right green cards that play along.

Cantripping turn one can be important, so if you want a green cantrip, I would go with Abundant Harvest over Transverse. Transverse could work in a build with DRC but it has a bit of antisynergy with Uro.

Brainstorm, Ponder and even Preordain are much better than Transverse and the blue count for FoW is more important than the green count for Endurance, especially since hardcasting Endurance is easier than hardcasting FoW and it gives you a 3/4 reach flash body to boot.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Cantripping turn one can be important, so if you want a green cantrip, I would go with Abundant Harvest over Transverse. Transverse could work in a build with DRC but it has a bit of antisynergy with Uro.

Brainstorm, Ponder and even Preordain are much better than Transverse and the blue count for FoW is more important than the green count for Endurance, especially since hardcasting Endurance is easier than hardcasting FoW and it gives you a 3/4 reach flash body to boot.

The blue count is already high enough: The base one would start with is:
4 Stifle
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dressdown
3 Uro (though for green counts you might go to 4)
2 Sailors' Bane.
That's 25ish blue cards.
Meanwhile for green you'd have
3 (4) Uro
4 Endurance
Which is only 8 cards. You need at least one more, and ideally it would be one that works with Bane (so not Sylvan Library)
That's also only 29 Cards You still have 11/12 left then when you account for ~18 lands.

[Clark Kant]

Thats a fair point. I didnt realize your green count was so low. My list plays Sylvan Library, Goyf and Ice Fang as a cantripping death toucher (and I even used to play Hierarch to hedge against Edict/Lili and help power out faster Uros) but no one else seems to play those.

I would still opt for Abundant Harvest over Transverse. Harvest is an excellent and very underrated cantrip. But I havent tried Transvese and I also havent tried Sailors Bane so it’s possible I could be underrating both cards the same way others underrate Harvest. I wouldnt be surprised if Bane is a powerhouse that everyone is ignoring only because it doesnt exist on MTGO.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ward 7 means it survives everything that Dreadnought loses to except verdict, while playing nice with uro. It's the ideal third threat. But it of course has deck building requirements.
One that had me playing consider and digging for a green one.
I thought about harvest but I thought I'd ask about traverse first

[Fox]

Revealing that you run Stifle and Dreadnought on turn 1 with a green cantrip is suspect.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Revealing that you run Stifle and Dreadnought on turn 1 with a green cantrip is suspect.

This is true: For a deck that wants to play at instant speed as much as possible a medium sorcery speed cantrip don't seem like it's it.

[FTW]

What's the thread's thoughts on traverse the ulvenwald?
Land and instant are easy. Sorceries we have, Enchantments, creatures, we also have.
I was watching the NRG yesterday and today and I just feel like jamming Endurance into this deck, no matter the cost, is the play I just need to find the right green cards that play along.

Traverse the Ulvenwald is too unreliable in Legacy.

You could try green using Once Upon A Time (instant), Tarmogoyf, Noble Hierarch, or maindeck Veil of Summer (if 1 Pyroblast is maindeckable, 1 Veil is too).

Hierarch synergizes with the mana superiority sub-plan and curves well into Uro and Endurance.


//Lands: 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Breeding Pool
3 Island
2 Forest
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Boseiju, Who Endures
3 Wasteland

//Creatures: 16
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Endurance
1 Sailors' Bane

//Spells: 20
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial
3 Once Upon A Time

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Sideboard: 15
3 Force of Vigor
3 Run Afoul
3 Veil of Summer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Powder Keg
1 Spell Pierce
1 Scroll of Fate


Blue count: 26
Green count: 14

Green is a bit low in game 1, but enough to board in Force of Vigor or evoke Endurance turn 0 if other green cards are boarded in.

I used Breeding Pool because you had it in your other list. If you can afford Tropical, of course that is better.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I dug pretty deep and was theorizing pretty hard but:
Green Sun's Zenith Fetches Hierarch early, and Uro/Endurence on 4.
Finale of DevestationFetches any creature, and can pull from the GY. But costs 1 more mana, so you can't use it to ramp t1.
Hornet Sting Most t1 creatures have 1 toughness, right? Like I said, I went deep.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Needs testing.
The true problem with any choice. I don't have anywhere to test!

[Fox]

The true problem with any choice. I don't have anywhere to test!

This is where you hop on twitch and watch [insert colors] Zenith/Uro midrange piles. You can see how these games play out. While you don't have 80 cards, you're still talking about playing basically their deck with 12x slots of Nought & enablers. Just pretend all their kill spells are Noughts and enablers.

The same can be said for those who want to randomly add Worldgorger to [non-Zenith] Uro midrange - you don't really need to test if you're doing the same thing with more variance. In either case you're playing the same tap-out-and-jam strategy, just with less ability to jam.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This is where you hop on twitch and watch [insert colors] Zenith/Uro midrange piles. You can see how these games play out. While you don't have 80 cards, you're still talking about playing basically their deck with 12x slots of Nought & enablers. Just pretend all their kill spells are Noughts and enablers.
That's a bad approach since you play a deck where the threats are the answers differently than you play a deck that answers things.


The same can be said for those who want to randomly add Worldgorger to [non-Zenith] Uro midrange - you don't really need to test if you're doing the same thing with more variance. In either case you're playing the same tap-out-and-jam strategy, just with less ability to jam.
*sigh*
I have to assume you mean Sailors' Bane since it's the only 7/7 mentioned and no one is talking about Worldgorger Dragon.

[FTW]

I have to assume you mean Sailors' Bane since it's the only 7/7 mentioned and no one is talking about Worldgorger Dragon.

He probably is talking about Worldgorger Dragon, another combo that has nothing to do with GSZ and Uro. Mixing two unrelated decks together. The analogy is that Dreadnought also has nothing to do with GSZ piles, so going deep in that direction doesn't necessarily make sense with the Dreadnought plan.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

He probably is talking about Worldgorger Dragon, another combo that has nothing to do with GSZ and Uro. Mixing two unrelated decks together. The analogy is that Dreadnought also has nothing to do with GSZ piles, so going deep in that direction doesn't necessarily make sense with the Dreadnought plan.

Then they would be speaking nonsense since a tutor reduces variance?

[Fox]

That's a bad approach since you play a deck where the threats are the answers differently than you play a deck that answers things.

So your fair plan is close to the same (albeit much much worse once Uro gets nuked by Surgical), so every time they answer something with Plow/Ending ask yourself "does a 12/12 get them out of this?" (The answer is usually no)

You end up hurting the midrange plan while simultaneously not specializing enough to help your combo (regardless of what the random combo being put into midrange soup is called). You end up with a worse deck than either pure fair or pure combo, as these pieces just trip over themselves.

Take Hierarch for instance, you're dumping your hand by playing it...in a deck that needs to dump its hand to make Noughts...that has to dump its hand to protect all this with FoW. Once this doesn't work you're a mana dork deck trying to draw through more dead topdecks (other Hierarchs and half of the A + B combo). You need the mana dork to be a credible threat by itself (i.e. DRS or Deathrite Monkey) to get away with this; otherwise your deck construction is losing to itself.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Uro and Dreadnought are not the "fair plan" This deck's fair plan is "attack with Endurance, and Bane" Where Bane is only under some definitions of fair.. They're combo pieces. I know you understand this because you address it in your write up about Hierarch you make a decent point about it having no utility beyond turn 1.

[Clark Kant]

Hierarch shouldnt be a 4 of. 0-2 is the right number of Hierarchs for this deck. You never want to see more than a single Hierarch in any game. The same is true of Sylvan Library, 0-2 at most.

Endurance is a great card. If you want to play it, I would take the Simic Dressnought list that is posted in the OP (the first list posted) and replace some of the 1 ofs and 2 ofs in that list (I would cut the Ice Fang, the Jace and either the FoN or a Daze or a Hierarch) for 3 Endurances.

Speaking of, Bant Dressnought 5-0ed yet again, JKNECHT 5-0ed with…

Creature (15)
4 Esper Sentinel
3 Murktide Regent
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Sorcery (6)
4 Ponder
2 Prismatic Ending
Instant (16)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
Artifact (2)
2 Scroll of Fate
Enchantment (2)
2 Dress Down
Land (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Prismatic Ending
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
2 Mystical Dispute
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Outland Liberator
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Torpor Orb


And RUG Dressnought 5-0ed for the third time this week. This time Oceansoul82 5-0ed with it…

Creature (7)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Sorcery (8)
4 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder
Instant (21)
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyroblast
4 Stifle
1 Stubborn Denial
Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down
Land (20)
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Sanctuary
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Hydroblast
1 Meltdown
2 Pyroclasm
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Unlicensed Hearse

The RUG Dressnought list seems to have landed on a finalized iteration, as 4 different pilots 5-0ed or top 8ed challenges with the same identical list.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Why would you cut the Ice Fangs? They seem look good green cards.
And better yet, I already own them.

[FTW]

Then instead of 4 Hierarch you probably need some green cantrip. 4 Abundant Harvest or 2 Harvest + 2 Ice-Fang Coatl. Because Bane requires a high instant and sorcery count. Between that and Endurance/FoV needing green count, you're stuck playing a green instant or sorcery that goes to the graveyard (not GSZ or Living Wish). The only ones that would also advance the Dreadnought plan are cheap cantrips. So probably both Abundant Harvest and Once Upon A Time. You could try Worldly Tutor instead, but it seems bad.

Sylvan Library is a good card at 1-2 copies, but it doesn't count as a spell for Sailors' Bane.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

OK, this is sorta/kinda where I'm at right now.

4 Dress down
4 Phyrexin Dreadnought
4 Uro
4 Endurance
3 Sailors' Bane
4 Ice-Fang Cotl
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Collected Company
1 Brazen Borrower
2 Snow-Covered Forest
5 Snow-Covered Island
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Rimewood Falls
1 Breeding Pool
2 Wasteland

3 Chill
3 Veil of Summer
1 Brazen Borrower
2 Force of Negation
2 Lazotep Plating
4 ???


E: oops I forgot dress down, ok I need 4 cuts

[FTW]

Collected Company is bad. Phyrexian Dreadnought and Sailors' Bane are both misses. Uro will go to the graveyard. The only bodies you can make are Endurance, Coatl and Borrower. You may not even hit 1 of them.

None of the winning decks are running Coatl. If you do play it for green count, you might as well have Force of Vigor in the SB.

What's Chill for? Is that to beat Pyroblast and Burn? Seems like overkill. You could just play 1-2 Hydroblast.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Collected Company is bad. Phyrexian Dreadnought and Sailors' Bane are both misses. Uro will go to the graveyard. The only bodies you can make are Endurance, Coatl and Borrower. You may not even hit 1 of them.

None of the winning decks are running Coatl. If you do play it for green count, you might as well have Force of Vigor in the SB.

What's Chill for? Is that to beat Pyroblast and Burn? Seems like overkill. You could just play 1-2 Hydroblast.

Hit rate with coco is 83% before including dreadnought. You also have brainstorm to guarantee hits. Ponder to preselect hits.
You also are allowed to go EOT -> [brainstorm ->] dress down -> untap -> cast coco, knowing what's on top of your deck.
It's 75% if you assume you're down to 50 cards in your deck with 10 hits. Or as we say in the biz: Good enough!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Whoops I forgot dressdown and now I see how I managed to cram Daze, Endurance, Ice-Fang AND had space left over to jam CoCo. Nope. Snip that.

[FTW]

Ignoring the Dress Down combo for now (too many moving pieces), I see 9 hits in the whole deck (4 Endurance, 4 Ice-Fang, 1 Borrower). That's before your 4 cuts.

Optimistically, if you've drawn none and used cantrips/fetches, that's 9 hits in 46 cards: 25% chance to hit nothing, 42% chance to hit 1 creature, 33% chance to hit 2 creatures.

Modern Coco usually had 25-30 hits, almost always hitting 2 good things. Trying to resolve a 4-mana spell in Legacy while hitting at a much lower rate seems bad. There's a good reason Coco doesn't see more Legacy play in 15-creature midrange decks. It's not new surprise tech no one's thought of. It's not good enough.

Why not just play Once Upon A Time?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Sure, if you ignore the highest upsides the play is weaker.

[FTW]

The highest upsides are inconsistent though. It's a 2-card A+B combo that costs 6 mana and can be easily disrupted. It's unnecessary variance/risk when the deck already has easier ways to make threats.

If you want Dreadnought more often, run Urza's Saga for an uncounterable tutor and additional threats. Or Scroll of Fate to make instant speed uncounterable EOT Dreadnought/Uro, while also converting dead draws into bodies.

[z0anthr0pe]

Why isn't Torpor Orb used in this deck more? It's a permanent good creature in to play effect. Is it too much of a sitting duck, or not flexible enough?

[Fox]

Why isn't Torpor Orb used in this deck more? It's a permanent good creature in to play effect. Is it too much of a sitting duck, or not flexible enough?

Trying to rely on a backup plan of Uro or Kroxa looks horrid when you keep turning these into getting 1 for 1'd. It's also quite poor-looking to trap yourself in the Karakas abyss.

There is also a problem with Torpor just being another way to make a sorcery speed dude, but still passing the turn. You haven't changed the rules enough when compared to EoT Dress Down + draw a card. There is also a variance problem with stacking Torpor effects doing absolutely nothing in multiples.

The most competitive choice you can make with any combo deck will always be to select combo pieces that don't kill you by flooding out on one side of the A then B combo. Multiple Dress Down and multiple Scroll of Fate without piece B aren't going to cost you the game as you either cycle them or throw down extra Scrolls as 2/2 beaters.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So Delver is a thing at my LGS and I was hopping I could get a rundown of how the MU should go in traditional stiflenought lists. What makes it so favored and how I can incorporate that theory into the UG list I'm trying to hammer out.
My LGS has some really good delver players.

[Fox]

So Delver is a thing at my LGS and I was hopping I could get a rundown of how the MU should go in traditional stiflenought lists. What makes it so favored and how I can incorporate that theory into the UG list I'm trying to hammer out.
My LGS has some really good delver players.

You have to be able to pick fights with not-blue cards (i.e. kill spells). When you pick these fights, Delver loses b/c they no longer have agency with Iteration - i.e. they are obligated to dig for another dude. If they blow their hand stopping the kill spell, they automatically end up in a position where they have no agency - your FoWs will dictate how the game proceeds.

In the background you blow up their mana and deny them the endgame of Iteration -> Shame Island -> Daze to loop Shame Island for Iteration. Having cut this mode of Daze, all you need to do is not let Daze counter real spells; if you're going to turn on Daze make sure you're setting them down to 1 land or less (aka at least 2 turns from being able to cast Iteration.

If Delver is what you really want to target, you can run Daze (but it is bad against almost every other non-combo deck).

Other than that, you need to be able to get on board on turn 1. DRC is the best way to do this followed very very distantly by Reclaimer (b/c 4 toughness is more than Bolt can deal with).

This is where the good matchup stops, and the reason it stops is that you can't play 2c [Dreadstill can]. On 3c you are not allowed to play the asymmetry game of "I can Waste you, but you can't Waste me" so the Delver matchup will always revolve around the Wasteland lottery...and this is why you need to be able to get on board on 1 mana.

As far as the 3c goes, green is the absolute worst. While it's cool and all to get Uro, that requires an overwhelming commitment to green mana...which doesn't cast Plow/Ending/Bolt/REB; i.e. very hard to pick fights with nonblue cards (vs Delver's 4-5 REB effects). You also don't have enough green to run the two best cards: FoV, Endurance. Recalimer and Ice-Fang can up the green count, but not exactly helpful against Murktide (you're not going to get to resolve and keep Ice-Fang into declare blockers vs so many Bolt and REB)... So you end up playing UR or UW + needs GG mana (or BB if Kroxa) - again why you'll never escape the Wasteland lottery abyss.

The last piece of the puzzle vs Delver is don't get mana screwed (and then Daze'd forever). Keep land heavier hands and don't activate Wasteland when it is more valuable to use the alternate mode of "your Daze is dead forever".

[FTW]

So Delver is a thing at my LGS and I was hopping I could get a rundown of how the MU should go in traditional stiflenought lists. What makes it so favored and how I can incorporate that theory into the UG list I'm trying to hammer out.
My LGS has some really good delver players.

Beating Delver takes stable mana, efficient threats, and cheap removal for their threats - especially Murktide (StP, Pyroblast).

Delver punishes greedy mana (nonbasics) and 3-4cmc creatures by getting on board earlier and then disrupting your mana (Daze, Wasteland) to prevent the big guys. If you can't also get on board early and cheaply answer their threats, they'll use their mana denial and tempo to race. The Dreadnought plan should be good. It's bigger than their guys, good tempo, and hard for them to remove (SB Meltdown & Borrower?). Your build's biggest weakness is that it might die to Delver's creatures and mana denial before it establishes Uro or Sailors' Bane. It doesn't have a good answer to fast Murktide+DRC. Endurance is very strong in the matchup but needs a higher green count. You probably need a 1-mana answer to Murktide: Run Afoul in green or splash another color for removal (StP, Pyroblast).

@Fox why must he be 3c? Why can't Dressnought be 2c?

UR can get on board fastest to out-Delver Delver. DRC is also the best Sailors' Bane enabler.


//Creatures: 12
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Sailors' Bane
1 Brazen Borrower

//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Expressive Iteration
1 Force of Negation

//Enchantments: 3
3 Dress Down

//Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

//Sideboard: 15
3 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Blood Moon
1 Pyroclasm
1 Powder Keg
2 Meltdown
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ashiok, Dream Render


Something roughly like that should beat Delver and combo, but will struggle against other fair blue piles. Sailors' Bane and Scroll of Fate should help the fair matches.

1-of Hunted Phantasm is an option, but probably not good enough. You could also make room for 2 Urza's Saga cleanly (tutors Dreadnought and SB cards, or makes more threats).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://mythicspoiler.com/40k/cards/redempterdreadnought.jpg
Dreadnought!

[FTW]

Cmc 5... Commander card?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Cmc 5... Commander card?

https://mythicspoiler.com/40k/cards/helbrute.jpg
Dreadnought!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

12/12s are the past. Drednoughts are 16/16s now.

[Fox]

@Fox why must he be 3c? Why can't Dressnought be 2c?

UR can get on board fastest to out-Delver Delver. DRC is also the best Sailors' Bane enabler.


//Creatures: 12
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Sailors' Bane
1 Brazen Borrower

//Spells: 27
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Expressive Iteration
1 Force of Negation

//Enchantments: 3
3 Dress Down

//Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain

//Sideboard: 15
3 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Scroll of Fate
1 Blood Moon
1 Pyroclasm
1 Powder Keg
2 Meltdown
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ashiok, Dream Render


Something roughly like that should beat Delver and combo, but will struggle against other fair blue piles. Sailors' Bane and Scroll of Fate should help the fair matches.

The issue is that UR is one of the worst color combinations at going long, and yet games have to go long b/c you absolutely need a ton of time to set up 2 mana and an open land drop (particularly when you're losing land drops to Daze and Wasteland)...but even then you actually need 3 lands and an open land drop for Iteration b/c you are going to find yourself flipping over Stifle, Dreadnought, Brazen, Bane, Daze/FoW/FoN, Dress Down with Iteration, and you can't just cast these from exile for value. In particular if you start flipping over Nought, Brazen, Bane, Dress Down and you need mana #4; those all require 2 more mana after you blew 2 mana on Iteration.

^This is a really bad way to pursue CA with a deck that has A then B combo (not A plus B), and needs to have CA to cover that design choice of 2-for-1'ing yourself. You do not benefit from having high mana counts...but you need high mana counts....but you are also really bad at attaining high mana counts (18 lands). That has to be contrasted to: my CA is from Standstill -> so I have high mana counts -> I can use high mana counts profitably.

Now there's no doubt Delver is never going to run a positive winrate against the list you provided, but they also weren't ever going to run a positive winrate against 3c StifleNought. So like what was the winrate boost vs Delver if you went from 3c to 2c? You went from maybe 80-85% favored to 85-90% favored...but your overall winrate will tank b/c you can't control what decks you're paired against (most of those decks would otherwise have a lower winrate vs you if you had Uro or Kroxa). Even if this change took you to 100% winrate vs Delver, your overall winrate would still be lower. There's only so far you can go in legacy if your only positive matchups are Delver, combo, and random tier 2 jank; at some point you have a reasonable chance of winning against the rest of tier 0, tier 1, and tier 1.5 (i.e. the meta).
---
Adding the highest of high quality turn 1 plays like DRC and your deck is automatically better across all matchups, but it's still just a band-aid for a bullet wound. The CA issue is still the 800-pound gorilla, and Iteration is not the answer. You need multiple CA card names, and that means 3c for Uro or Kroxa. This is why we are seeing more results from Iteration + Uro and Iteration + Kroxa in StifleNought.

There's very few things StifleNought's 6-round challenge top8s and 5-0 league data points tell us other than the deck farms Delver and combo. One of the only things you can really glean from those statistics is that Iteration is not good enough by itself to answer the CA problem. If Iteration were good enough by itself, we would see more finishes by UWR/UR StifleNought. As it stands, you are going to win more games with StifleNought by playing Uro + Iteration or Kroxa + Iteration or Uro without Iteration or Kroxa without Iteration, rather than just playing Iteration by itself.

^That's not an opinion - it's what the data thus far shows. Could the data show something else if you surround just Iteration with 2c's access to basics and DRC and Bane? Sure...highly unlikely...but sure.

[FTW]

Now there's no doubt Delver is never going to run a positive winrate against the list you provided, but they also weren't ever going to run a positive winrate against 3c StifleNought. So like what was the winrate boost vs Delver if you went from 3c to 2c? You went from maybe 80-85% favored to 85-90% favored...

So you're saying things like manabase stability and Daze aren't important because you're going to thrash Delver either way. That's relevant for the direction FourDogs wanted to build.

In that case, why not play 3c with Uro. Uro is actual card advantage, while Kroxa is a questionable card. Uro clearly helps the CA issue better than EI alone. If you can beat Delver even with 3c mana, why not do it.


//Creatures: 13
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Sailors' Bane

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Expressive Iteration
1 Force of Negation

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Lands: 19
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
3 Wasteland

//Sideboard: 15
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Alpine Moon
1 Maddening Hex
1 Pyroclasm
1 Powder Keg
1 Meltdown
1 Return to Nature
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Surgical Extraction


DRC mills into Uro & Bane. Uro doesn't slow down Bane. Seems good.

[Fox]

The issue you're going to run into is unwinnable games vs Chalice as you dropped the Brazens and don't have the land totals nor mana progression (basics) of Dreadstill to hide the Brazen effect on Otawara.

The bigger question is what the point is, since a ban seems pretty imminent in the near future. Why are we putting CA on a card that has a target on its back? Why are we focusing on a matchup that is going to dwindle back down to only being seen in a maximum of 1-2 rounds of a 6-7 round challenge when the ban comes?

This is the time where you focus on fixing the matchup vs blue fair removal, non-blue fair removal, Lands, and Chalice. These matchups have to be positive post-ban...otherwise you quickly lose all the 'dedicated' pilots (given that the only place left to find success with be combo-boosted leagues). I mean I guess you can gamble on Delver + DRC being enough reveal effects to let Delver go straight to 4x Predict and drop no meta share, but that seems like wishful thinking, since this type of thing gets broken up by the main response of kill their dude.
---
On the DRC optimizing, you need to look at the cost of Dress Down as a 4x. The last two copies of Dress Down preclude you from running 2x Saga, and that cuts you from 1-card delirium option of tutor suicide Nought, maindeck a Relic-type, and Currency Converter x2 (even easier to turn on delirium with this).

You're also passing up higher density of 1-drops like Lavamancer that can easily be activated and: maintain delirium, keep MindTwisters from putting lands back into your deck, beat Surgical, combine with DRC's 3 damage to kill Endurance, intentionally strip delirium to gain agency (not being forced to attack with DRC), combine with Bolt to increase effectiveness of the noncombat wincon...and still decrease cost of Sailor's Bane.

Even though you added DRC, you haven't really dialed up the aggression to the level of 6-7 slots of DRC/Lavamancer into next turn Standstill. You're also playing so much harder into Chalice paired with an unreliable mana base. You've also condemned yourself to going up on mulligans for a bounce effect not on a land (Brazen rather than Otawara)...and when you do happen to acquire high mana you don't really have an outlet other than single card name Uro (no Sharks, no Currency Converter, etc).
---
You've definitely gone up on the brute force plan, as well as going up an amount on aggression and synergy, but you kinda just put all this energy into making a sharp spearhead....that is attached to a piece of flimsy plywood.

I doubt you would have more success or interesting gameplay than just building anti-Delver Delver:
4x Delta
4x Tarn
4x Volc
1x Steam Vents
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Shame Island
4x Wasteland

4x DRC
4x Bane
3x Lavamancer
2x Brazen

4x BS
4x Ponder
4x Daze
4x FoW
4x Bolt
4x Iteration
2x FoN (gotta go up to 2x b/c of Bane)
1x Mine Collapse (better than Heat or Magmatic with Lavamancer, and more reliable than maindeck Pyroblast)

Still it's worthless to build with the imminent ban, but you at least get the big dude beatdown feel and have Lavamancer to give the 7/7 "trample" as you wipe out the blocker. Killing Murkgoyf trivial with 4-5x REB effects in SB. Deck is still pretty crappy vs Chalice but at least you've got more ways to power out Bane [i.e. FoN as Dark Rit] and more Bane copies and the Brazen effect. You get to keep the feelsbad losses to suspect manabase. Fewer bad matchups than convoluting this with Dreadnought package.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There's a ban coming?

[Fox]

There's a ban coming?

Would you be surprised if one happened tomorrow, next week, next month? No. Which is how you know the clock is ticking.

You already know the target, and what the fallout is going to be as it pertains to StifleNought.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I would be yeah.
But also I'm building for the next tournament, not the tournament a week, a month, or a year from now when everyone accepts your gospel and harmonic convergence deletes whatever card you're talking about now.

[BirdsOfParadise]

What card is getting banned? I can’t tell from over here in the cheap seats.

[Tobitzki]

So you're saying things

lol, Fox going off the deep end. (building with Mine Collapse and Lavamancer for that imaginary future meta; durdling Saga into suicide-Dreadnought lines for that sweet sweet going-down-a-card-to-flip-my-DRC, kitchen-table style. Super.)

@FTW:
That last list looks pretty good to me. Couple of considerations:
- I would probably still run MTR over Bane in a deck that's a little bit light on removal to get rid of chump blockers. Maxtortion's RUG builds (with and w/o Dreadnoughts) seem to suggest that Uro & Murky in the same deck works just fine.
- Fluster over FoN in the main has always felt correct to me in Tempo Dreadnought
- 1st Scroll of Fate over 4th Dress Down is an idea (also a decent hedge vs. Chalice)
- 5x GY hate in the side seems excessive, especially for a deck that already hoses combo with 8-9 free counters and turn-2 12/12s. I would a) definitely turn Return to Nature into Ancient Grudge and b) consider swapping out Relic for some anti-blue-pile tech (Minsc & Boo; Life/Loam; or just Carpet or another blast)
- Keep the Ashiok, that card is awesome.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How does Minsc and Boo work as anti blue tech?
People keep telling me the card is good and I want to test it but I don't really know the function of it, when to keep it when to pitch it, ect.

[Fox]

Yeah I don't think you want to be running Murktide in the same list as 4x Uro. For as out there as you think Mine Collapse is, there are approximately 0x Delver decks running Mag Sinkhole.
---
You know Iteration is getting banned, so I'm not really building for the future. So if we take a look at FTW's list, we also know that is not built for the future, as it runs the same negative matchup profile vs the majority of tier decks.

So the question is, why exactly you'd add an unsupported Dreadnought module [4x Nought and 8x enabler] to a Delver base while losing aggression (4x Delver, 4x Daze) and losing points vs Chalice (missing 2x Brazen). Climbing up the mana curve on the same number of lands is only ever going to make so much sense; particularly without the promise of mana progression that basics offer.

So if you wanted to play Bane over Murkgoyf, then it's not like having a Dreadnought module that half the time strips your own ward 4 is exactly synergy. Cutting the Brazens that discount Bane, again not synergy.

Ask yourself @Tobitzki:
-does it matter to Bane if Lavamancer moves something from GY to exile? No.
-does losing keyword flying increase the importance of having repeatable anti-chump block cards like Lavamancer? Yes.
-should you have a higher focus on speed if you've chosen Bane over Murktide? Yes, 7 specific cards is more than 5 any-cards.
-should you have a higher focus on speed if you're trying to get Bane down while ward 4 is still active, and also be able to push it up to ward 5 with Daze? Yes...and yes, free spells [e.g. Mine Collapse and 2nd FoN] add speed to deploying Bane; particularly under a DRC.
---
^you can build for Bane today, before the impending ban hits, but not with Dreadnought cards - there's no synergy there. That's a problem b/c synergy is where the win % comes from with Dreadnought (and any other deck that deviates from mono-1-card combos).

As far as Dreadnought goes you already know where the meta is going with the looming Iteration ban. StifleNought is losing it's most successful CA setup (Titan + Iteration > only Titan > only Iteration)...StifleNought is losing the ability to get paired vs Delver for half of the rounds of a small challenge...and you know removal-based magic (Plow/Ending) is going to fill that gap. This is going to happen while Delver waits for the next Gitaxian/DRS/Ragavan/Wrenn/Oko/DHA/CA effect.

The card you might want to incorporate, given that Dreadnought is a 1 mana artifact, versus all that spot removal might just be a couple of Saga. Making 2x dudes and getting a third thing is probably a good start in the right direction. Might be good to follow that up with CA source they can't use white cards against, like say Standstill. Might be good to have built in protection from dying b/c you flooded on Dreadnoughts that you didn't have to draw thanks to Saga, or could loot away off a Currency Converter again thanks to Saga. Might want to slow your roll on that Dress Down quad laser and start thinking about mana security and the long game. Might want to consider investing in a positive matchup against more than just Delver and tier combo.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Even without Iteration I don't think I've ever seen a meta where delver was the top legacy deck. I'll admit I only got into legcy when it was called Canadian Thresh, but still It's the same deck. Just Goyf flies and Mongoose filters. And neither is green.

[Tobitzki]

For as out there as you think Mine Collapse is, there are approximately 0x Delver decks running Mag Sinkhole.

lol whut?

(Have you read Mine Collapse?? Let stay in reality and agree that Unholy Heat is only reasonable Bolts #4-6 option here

re: losing aggression: I might be on board with putting a couple Dazes back into the deck. And I'm also a fan of Brazen B, but it's a matter of assessing risk, I don't think there's a definite correct # (it's probably the FoN slot).

But I disagree with the "unsupported Dreadnought module" view: Those 8 enablers all have text on their own, and can also work to cheat in Uro (part B of the combo) to clock the opp in the appropriate MU. That's a lot of redundancy.

On Bane vs. Murky: I think Bane is a cute hedge vs. spot removal (esp. w/ all those red blasts around) but over all the power gap between the two is just too large to justify Bane. The idea of Uro escape into Bane is cool, but at that point in the game, ward 4 quickly loses its shine. On the other hand I really don't think warping the whole deck around Bane is worth it.

@FourDogs: M&B is a house in general (except vs. Delver in particular), but especially strong vs. Jeskai-type strategies. There's plenty of recent content all over the platforms showcasing it's power.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

@FourDogs: M&B is a house in general (except vs. Delver in particular), but especially strong vs. Jeskai-type strategies. There's plenty of recent content all over the platforms showcasing it's power.

Do you have a recommendation where I can see this? I've already got my Togedemru Boo tokens, I'm just too baby brained to see it.

[Fox]

lol whut?
There's a word we use for Mag Sinkhole in Delver before Murktide - that word is "stock". The reason they stopped using it is not what it did, but that it was competing for GY with Murktide. That's why you see cards like Unholy Heat in this slot.

Now given that they'd otherwise still be playing 1 mana deal 5 (since they often play 1 mana maybe deal 6), is it really that hard to understand that 0 mana deal 5 is probably just fine in the context of actively wanting to play Lavamancer with Bane (Collapse floats a red and puts 2 in the yard for Lavamancer...which clears the chumpers) and wanting to turbo out a Bane (0 mana investment helps here), such that ward 4 has text?

You can ofc just play UR Delver with Murktide....but the question posed here is about Bane. The competitive decisions flow chart featuring Bane does not end on Dreadnought when you map it out.

Bane wants faster play, more aggressive costs, and a mechanism to push damage through. StifleNought is diametrically opposed to this strategy as: it is much slower in the 1 mana threat department, it is much worse with Daze (passing late turns with summoning sick removal targets Daze will never protect), and it's half of its tech [Dress Down] doesn't discount Bane...while also stripping keyword ward.

So again really not about Bane vs Murktide so much as should we put Bane with Nought - and the answer there is decidedly no.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

so much as should we put Bane with Nought - and the answer there is decidedly no.
Have you played with the card yet?

[Tobitzki]

Do you have a recommendation where I can see this?

like, do you mean links?

Maxtortion's RUG Stiflenought 4-1 (getting Delvered in r4, hilariously)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ScH85YNIg&t=1747s

great Jarvis league on 4C Hamster Cntrl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ka0sCQSLuw&t=7311s

one of Anu's back-to-back Challenge wins on Yorion Hamster (you'll find more Hamster content on his YT):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRqO4MWkhME&t=10858s

BoshnRoll also has some M&B content up

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

like, do you mean links?

Maxtortion's RUG Stiflenought 4-1 (getting Delvered in r4, hilariously)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8ScH85YNIg&t=1747s

great Jarvis league on 4C Hamster Cntrl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ka0sCQSLuw&t=7311s

one of Anu's back-to-back Challenge wins on Yorion Hamster (you'll find more Hamster content on his YT):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRqO4MWkhME&t=10858s

BoshnRoll also has some M&B content up

TY

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ok So:

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Sailor's Bane

2 Minsc and Boo, Timeless Heroes

4 Dress Down

4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation

8 Mystery cards

4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Prismatic Vista
5 Other Fetches / Duals
2 Wasteland

[Fox]

Have you played with the card yet?
Don't need to. Kinda the same way I didn't need to play your deck against ANT to know not to cut Dress Down and Nought while bringing in 1cmc cards you kept tapping yourself out of.

There's nothing wrong with learning by experience, but learning by wisdom is a better model. We're talking about a card that is smaller than MurkGoyf, slower than MurkGoyf, and down keyword flying vs MurkGoyf. At a baseline you have to either be getting on board faster than MurkGoyf or have other cards to answer MurkGoyf; otherwise you have failed the Goyf test.

You're sitting too high on the mana curve to be fast. You're sitting too high on the curve to incorporate Daze + ward 4. You're not fixing these problems by adding a Dreadnought module. You've created another problem where Dress Down strips ward; and just like we know you can't play 4x Saga and 4x Dress Down (b/c it strands Dress Down in your hand), for the same reasons + Dress Down stripping your payoff (ward 4) is quite bad. There's also a problem with not discounting the cost + cutting Brazen (does discount cost) + increasing the problems vs Chalice.

So Sailors' Bane is a super cool and all, but you bought yourself an even worse matchup vs MurkGoyf and Chalice....so that you could learn the hard way that it's going to feel real bad when you're trying to cycle a Dress Down and Bane dies without ward.

Just think about it critically: what turn does a Kappa Cannoneer come down? When does MurkGoyf come down? Do you really think StifleNought can get this card down before turn 5 reliably...and what can your opponent do with 5 turns of land drops - perhaps pay for a kill spell and ward 4?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Don't need to. You should.

Kinda the same way I didn't need to play your deck against ANT to know not to cut Dress Down and Nought while bringing in 1cmc cards you kept tapping yourself out of.
Oh Fox, you messy bitch. :laugh:


There's nothing wrong with learning by experience, but learning by wisdom is a better model.
Oh, and what's it called when you never learn at all because:

We're talking about a card that is smaller than MurkGoyf,
Nope!

slower than MurkGoyf,
Wrong!

and down keyword flying vs MurkGoyf.
And up Ward. Weird how you're quick to remind us how good spot removal is and yet when when provided an answer to that problem you just plug your ears.

At a baseline you have to either be getting on board faster than MurkGoyf or have other cards to answer MurkGoyf; otherwise you have failed the Goyf test.
For Murktide to be fast, it can't be an 8/8. If it's an 8/8 then it's significantly slower than Bane. If it's not an 8/8 it's smaller than Bane and Dreadnought. If it's not a 7/7 (and most aren't. They're usually 6/6s, since 3 spells + 3 lands is the sweet spot to a t3 Murktide + protection) then Uro can also trade with it.

Play with the card and come back to me. Or don't. Just fuck off, honestly.

[Fox]

So 1 in 5 cards in your deck are not going to help you power out a Bane (the Dreadnought module). You're also pathologically going to be turning off Stifle with Ponder on 1, EoT Dress Down on 2, and then Iteration or Uro.

This makes you slower in the Goyf war, and slower is also smaller. So before you ever play a single game you know that you need to be able to kill MurkGoyf.

While adding 1 drops like DRC is progress, and having access to SB REBs is also progress...having slots for DRC and Uro and Nought and Bane really carves into your ability to fit Brazen - which feeds back into the whole problem of playing from behind vs MurkGoyf (particularly in game 1).

You also have the anti-combo of a deck that is pressured into cycling Dress Down (thanks to drawing extra copies or getting blackmailed by Iteration into spamming it). Can't stress this enough: Dress Down strips ward.

Just because a 12/12 is bigger than the Delver deck, it does not mean their life total is the one that needs to be defended. When you start pushing up the mana curve, without resistance to Wasteland, you're not the one on offense. If MurkGoyf was still actual Tarmogoyf, you would have covered this flaw just by having Uro...but the inability of Uro to interact by blocking and only effectively shrinking MurkGoyf to a 5/8 im a race is significant enough to throw out the old heuristic of Uro invalidates Goyf.

This is where a lot of decks mess up in legacy; they think too much about what their deck can do...but they forget that what they could do doesn't matter if a MurkGoyf is killing them before they can do their thing. This is why there is so much complaining about MurkGoyf - people are not willing to/don't like having to stop everything they're doing to run slots of choosing not to lose to Goyf.

When it comes to StifleNought vs Delver, your wincon is mostly exposing their terrible deck structure with Stifle and Wasteland, which makes the play pattern of sandbagging land drops for Iteration and having an ETB tapped Island go horribly wrong. Something you will want to avoid is transitioning from that advantage point into "you can get back in the game by making an 8/8 to my 7/7".

If you can't threaten to close the door, it really doesn't matter if your deck has big dudes vs an opponent who can ignore the battlefield race and divert all their resources into countering your next topdecks. This is a predictable endgame you don't have to gift your Delver opponent. Make them earn the endgame where they have the luxury of ignoring the battlefield race.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Hey Fox:

Just fuck off, honestly.

[Valech]

Hey Fox:

Thank you

[FTW]

lol, Fox going off the deep end. (building with Mine Collapse and Lavamancer for that imaginary future meta; durdling Saga into suicide-Dreadnought lines for that sweet sweet going-down-a-card-to-flip-my-DRC, kitchen-table style. Super.)

@FTW:
That last list looks pretty good to me. Couple of considerations:
- I would probably still run MTR over Bane in a deck that's a little bit light on removal to get rid of chump blockers. Maxtortion's RUG builds (with and w/o Dreadnoughts) seem to suggest that Uro & Murky in the same deck works just fine.
- Fluster over FoN in the main has always felt correct to me in Tempo Dreadnought
- 1st Scroll of Fate over 4th Dress Down is an idea (also a decent hedge vs. Chalice)
- 5x GY hate in the side seems excessive, especially for a deck that already hoses combo with 8-9 free counters and turn-2 12/12s. I would a) definitely turn Return to Nature into Ancient Grudge and b) consider swapping out Relic for some anti-blue-pile tech (Minsc & Boo; Life/Loam; or just Carpet or another blast)
- Keep the Ashiok, that card is awesome.

Good points. Forcing Bane is not worth it.

Murktide + Uro together seems greedy and easy to attack with GY hate, so I'm starting on 2 Murktide like the Grixis decks. At least with Uro you can cheat it out vs grave hate. That avoids too much exposure to Leyline of the Void (in a deck with almost 0 enchantment kill) or other attempts to grind away at graveyard size (Relic, Hearse, Endurance).

Fluster seems better in other tempo shells. But a deck with Uro and EI and Ponder will tap out a lot. FoN main seems better with Fluster side. I see the Fluster in Maxtortion's list, but it feels awkward holding open Fluster with so many tap-out lines. The 5th Force helps G1 against Chalice @ 1 (without Brazen Boi, there are no answers in the main).

I notice DRC is not in most tempo Dreadnought lists. But it is such a strong card to have in URx tempo. It does so many things: powerful 1 drop attacker, graveyard filling (Uro & Murktide), card selection (filters around Dreadnought combo depending on when you want it). It doesn't even need Bauble due to suicidal artifacts and enchantments already in the deck.


//Creatures: 14
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Murktide Regent

//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Expressive Iteration
1 Force of Negation

//Enchantments: 3
3 Dress Down

//Artifact: 1
1 Scroll of Fate

//Lands: 19
3 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Island

//Sideboard: 15
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Veil of Summer
1 Maddening Hex
1 Pyroclasm
1 Powder Keg
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Return to Nature
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Surgical Extraction


I chose Return to Nature in part to have answers to enchantments. Grudge misses that. Maybe the cut is Relic then.

Blasts, Fluster, Veil and Maddening Hex should all be good against blue piles. I made space for creature removal vs Elves and D&T.

The best Bane deck is probably a UR tempo shell. Lavamancer seems bad - better in controlling UR Dreadstill than in aggressive UR tempo. Instead of turning sideways to remove a blocker, you could just play another big threat (4x Murktide Regent) and turn that sideways. UR tempo would rather have more standalone threats than support creatures. Murktide has no anti-synergy with Bane. You can run both. Anyway, that is all off topic.

[Fox]

Hey Fox:

You are slower at deploying your 7/7 than Delver is at deploying their 8/8. How did you magically start winning the race and force them into chumping?

Explain how playing 12/60 cards of Dreadnought module is leading to powering out 7/7s that are not sped up by said Dreadnought module. Explain how the opponent can't just pay for ward that late in the game. Explain how stripping your own ward with Dress Down is a combo.

I think so much of your thought process is comes from drawing false parallels to Kappa Cannoneer's ward 4 (which cones out as early as turn 2 or 3) and another false parallel between the experience of Uro midrange (a 4x Plow/4x Ending deck) vs Murktide.

We saw it again as you explained your matchup vs Goblins where you were talking about Stifle'ing their Lackey and then also (despite burning your enablers) being able to make big dudes and reverse the advantage bar. It didn't stop there either, your next stuff was about having no green count and adding Endurance.

All I see is someone at a chess board drawing up a strategy predicated upon moving their queen twice before passing priority.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You are slower at deploying your 7/7 than Delver is at deploying their 8/8. How did you magically start winning the race and force them into chumping?

Explain how playing 12/60 cards of Dreadnought module is leading to powering out 7/7s that are not sped up by said Dreadnought module. Explain how the opponent can't just pay for ward that late in the game. Explain how stripping your own ward with Dress Down is a combo.

I think so much of your thought process is comes from drawing false parallels to Kappa Cannoneer's ward 4 (which cones out as early as turn 2 or 3) and another false parallel between the experience of Uro midrange (a 4x Plow/4x Ending deck) vs Murktide.

We saw it again as you explained your matchup vs Goblins where you were talking about Stifle'ing their Lackey and then also (despite burning your enablers) being able to make big dudes and reverse the advantage bar. It didn't stop there either, your next stuff was about having no green count and adding Endurance.

All I see is someone at a chess board drawing up a strategy predicated upon moving their queen twice before passing priority.

How about instead of repeating the same canards you:

Just fuck off, honestly.

[Fox]

How about instead of repeating the same canards you:

So you want to play behind MurkGoyf with Bane pretending you've already solved the problem...

Then you want to cut Brazen to play further behind MurkGoyf....

And now against a Daze and Bolt deck your brilliant idea is to play a 4 mana PW that has massive vulnerability to Bolt...

You need to have a better strategy than throwing away the one matchup that matters more than any other [Delver]. This is a recurring problem in your thought process.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So you want to play behind MurkGoyf with Bane pretending you've already solved the problem...

Then you want to cut Brazen to play further behind MurkGoyf....

And now against a Daze and Bolt deck your brilliant idea is to play a 4 mana PW that has massive vulnerability to Bolt...

You need to have a better strategy than throwing away the one matchup that matters more than any other [Delver]. This is a recurring problem in your thought process.
I have another brilliant idea for you, you'll never guess:

Just fuck off, honestly.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Anyways played magic tonight, thoughts:
Minsc and Boo are a house. I get it now. Very glad I came prepared https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/status/1575249505846497298
Bane performed admirably. It was too big for burn to deal with (not that they could pay the 4) and Delver got stuck chumping it because they couldn't make the 8/8 murktide in time. By then I had plenty of time to find permission.
You can't play six shocks. I need to find a way to get my hands on at least 1 affordable vulc and trop. 1 of each goes a long way with fetches.
There's a fun subgame to be had when show and tell is cast and your hand is all dress down and stifles.
All in all fun night. Will be making adjustments moving forward but not sure what yet.

[FTW]

Anyways played magic tonight, thoughts:
Minsc and Boo are a house. I get it now. Very glad I came prepared https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/status/1575249505846497298
Bane performed admirably. It was too big for burn to deal with (not that they could pay the 4) and Delver got stuck chumping it because they couldn't make the 8/8 murktide in time. By then I had plenty of time to find permission.
You can't play six shocks. I need to find a way to get my hands on at least 1 affordable vulc and trop. 1 of each goes a long way with fetches.
There's a fun subgame to be had when show and tell is cast and your hand is all dress down and stifles.
All in all fun night. Will be making adjustments moving forward but not sure what yet.

Congrats. How did you do overall?

What did you end up playing? How was the mana?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Congrats. How did you do overall?

What did you end up playing? How was the mana?

2-2. A handful of punts and some well-punished decisions really got me.
Beat: Burn, Delver
Lost: Show and Tell, Reanimator

Mana, quantitatively felt ok, but I was running too many shocks and not enough basics because I wanted to try a Temur list, with 4 bolts and 2 Minsc n Boos.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Steam vents
3 Breeding Pool
2 Wasteland
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Snow Forest
1 Island

[FTW]

2-2. A handful of punts and some well-punished decisions really got me.
Beat: Burn, Delver
Lost: Show and Tell, Reanimator

Mana, quantitatively felt ok, but I was running too many shocks and not enough basics because I wanted to try a Temur list, with 4 bolts and 2 Minsc n Boos.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Snow Forest
1 Island

Did you have 3 Tropical 3 Volcanic like above, or was it 6 shocks? Or some mix of shocks and basics?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Did you have 3 Tropical 3 Volcanic like above, or was it 6 shocks? Or some mix of shocks and basics?

Sorry, I copied the list but I wrote it down with the duals and not the shocks I shuffled up

[BirdsOfParadise]

Nice job beating Burn and Delver with six shocklands! That must feel good.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nice job beating Burn and Delver with six shocklands! That must feel good.

It did!
But I can't rely on that luck going forward. It basically shut down a lot of my game plan v burn because it meant being two turns behind on the draw, but thankfully was on the play g1 and 3.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ok got my hands on some cards I don't normally have access to, see if you can spot them as I went 3-1

3 uro, Titan of nature's wrath
4 phyrexian Dreadnought
2 brazen borrower
3 Sailors' Bane
2 minsc & boo, Timeless Heroes
4 dress down

4 stifle
4 ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 force of will
2 daze
1 stubborn denial
4 lightning bolt

1 island
1 forest
1 mystic sanctuary
2 polluted Delta
2 flooded strand
3 volcanic island
3 tropical island
4 Misty rainforest
2 wasteland

//Sideboard
2 force of negation
2 drop of honey
3 veil of summer
3 run afoul
1 flusterstorm
4 leyline of the void

R1 2-0 Hammer. My 12/12s are bigger and you can kill the paladin before it picks anything up
R2 1-2 murktide g1 I drew nothing if value, won game two and lost a close g3
R3 2-0 Alluren got a little lucky to draw a dress down two unlock a pair of Dreadnoughts two games. Veil the removal and kill them dead.
R4 lost g1 to geisslevrand. Boarded in a lot of counters g2/3 and easily won g2 and then nearly lost g3 when I took a risky line that almost got me double dazed (he was at 10, I had a bane, dress down, two forces one negation one will, arun afoul and two other blue cards a veil in hand with 3 mana up. He cast show and tell and instead of fighting over it I put bane in play. He drops emmy. Dress down hits a brainstorm I know about (there's a bolt under that) I cast run afoul into a daze, I force, he dazed again, I forced again, he has his own force. We go to my turn. Looks like I'm about to be Uber punished. I draw and cast my brainstorm... Find another run afoul and pair of forces. I cast the veil, the afoul and put him to 3 and he scoops.)
Fun night. Run afoul stole about 2 games on the night. Drop of honey clipped an emrakul.

[FTW]

Nice result. Looks like the better mana helped.

Run Afoul is great, right? Answers all the other big nasty creatures in Legacy.

Did Minsc & Boo win any games? How did it perform? It seems to drive up the curve too high when you already have big finishers (Bane, Uro, Dreadnought). Would it be better as Expressive Iteration, Force of Negation, or Pyroblast?

How did you board against Delver in Round 2?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nice result. Looks like the better mana helped.

It did. I got to be more aggressive with dual fetching. But also I didn't play the MUs where the damage mattered so much.


Run Afoul is great, right? Answers all the other big nasty creatures in Legacy.

Very happy with it.


Did Minsc & Boo win any games? How did it perform? It seems to drive up the curve too high when you already have big finishers (Bane, Uro, Dreadnought). Would it be better as Expressive Iteration, Force of Negation, or Pyroblast?
Saw it exactly once, I cast it into a counter spell. I don't remember if this was intentional on my part but I think this was incidental. Last week when I played the pair I did enjoy them. Maybe I want an EI instead, but I have Force already and decided the side is a better place for them. Dunno about Pyroblast, I guess I just have other cards to deal with what it deals with?


How did you board against Delver in Round 2?
I brought in 2 veils and the 3 Run Afouls. I think I took out some combo of Force, 1 Dress Down and I forget what. The game I managed to win I cast ponder and saw all three.

[Captain Hammer]

4 Torpor Orbs in the sideboard seem an autoinclude with how prevalent initiative and doomsday is, especially in lists with Uro/Kroxa.

Initative Stompy Urzas Saga and Doomsday lists are everywhere, and graveyard hate/leyline/endurance has become the most popular way to answer Delver lists.


I feel like this deck is poised to do amazing right now.

Anyone have an updated list, ideally one that also plays either 4 Delvers (dodges gravehate) or some number of Minsc and Boo (Stiflenought dodges Bolt so prismatic ending/stp lists are our bane and Minsc eats those cards for breakfast and gets sided out vs bolt lists).

Edit: That terminus list in the op looks solid vs initiative stompy and saga tokens. Is anyone playing terminus in the board?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

4 Torpor Orbs in the sideboard seem an autoinclude with how prevalent initiative and doomsday is, especially in lists with Uro/Kroxa.

Initative Stompy Urzas Saga and Doomsday lists are everywhere, and graveyard hate/leyline/endurance has become the most popular way to answer Delver lists.


I feel like this deck is poised to do amazing right now.

Anyone have an updated list, ideally one that also plays either 4 Delvers (dodges gravehate) or some number of Minsc and Boo (Stiflenought dodges Bolt so prismatic ending/stp lists are our bane and Minsc eats those cards for breakfast and gets sided out vs bolt lists).

Edit: That terminus list in the op looks solid vs initiative stompy and saga tokens. Is anyone playing terminus in the board?
Here's 13th in a challenge and a 5-0 the next week. No Delvers, no green.

//Artifact
1 Scroll of Fate
//Creature (11)
3 Murktide Regent
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Brazen Borrower
//Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down
//Instant (19)
4 Stifle
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Force of Negation
//Sorcery (6)
2 Expressive Iteration
4 Ponder
//Land (19)
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
60 Cards

//Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Torpor Orb
2 Brotherhood's End
2 Price of Progress
1 Maddening Hex
3 Pyroblast
2 Narset, Parter of Veils


This list, same player the only one who apparently can put up numbers with Dreadnought lately, has Kroxa.

//Creature (9)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
1 Brazen Borrower
2 Murktide Regent
//Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down
//Instant (22)
4 Stifle
1 Snuff Out
1 Force of Negation
4 Brainstorm
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Unholy Heat
1 Stubborn Denial
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
//Sorcery (6)
4 Ponder
2 Expressive Iteration
//Land (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
60 Cards

//Sideboard (15)
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Plague Engineer
1 Hydroblast
2 Brotherhood's End
1 Maddening Hex
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Torpor Orb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Narset, Parter of Veils


Looks like the play is to drop the Uro and Minsc And Boo (Mi Booro, their couples name) and just play murktide yourself.

[FTW]

Murktide is good tempo, while Uro and Minsc are slow and mana-hungry. It looks like their plan is to go under UR Delver, rather than play slower stuff. Wasn't your green build struggling vs Delver? The above one should destroy it. It should have good matchups vs Delver, Initiative, Doomsday, random combo.

1 Torpor Orb SB looks correct. That card is still terrible to draw in multiples, and you already have 4x Dress Down main. Instead of adding more Torpors, they switched Meltdown to Brotherhood's End (kills x/3s). Smart use of SB space.

[Clark Kant]

https://i.imgur.com/OygNJeD_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand

Mycosynth Gardens looks very promising as yet another way to combo with Dreadnought, and an uncounterable one at that. It also makes Urza’s Saga more worthwhile…

Turn 3 tap Urza’s Saga in response to its trigger for a mana, grab Dreadnought, and use that mana to turn Mycosynth Gardens into a Dreadnought.

More importantly, you can activate Gardens to copy Dreadnought in response to your opponent targeting your first Dreadnought with a removal spell.

With 4 Saga, the list can essentially run 8 Dreadnoughts and up to 12 combo pieces (Stifle, Dress Down, Mycosynth Gardens) that all have quite a bit of utility even without the combo.

[Fox]

The issue you're going to run into is the same one you ran into earlier this thread: you can't really run quad laser Dress Down and also make constructs. You end up having constructs in play and Dress Downs in hand that you are no longer allowed to cast.

What this does do however is let you go from 2 mana [EoT Dress Down] -> untap, play 3rd land -> Dreadnought -> if opponent ever goes after Nought, copy in response.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://i.imgur.com/OygNJeD_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand

Mycosynth Gardens looks very promising as yet another way to combo with Dreadnought, and an uncounterable one at that. It also makes Urza’s Saga more worthwhile…

Turn 3 tap Urza’s Saga in response to its trigger for a mana, grab Dreadnought, and use that mana to turn Mycosynth Gardens into a Dreadnought.

More importantly, you can activate Gardens to copy Dreadnought in response to your opponent targeting your first Dreadnought with a removal spell.

With 4 Saga, the list can essentially run 8 Dreadnoughts and up to 12 combo pieces (Stifle, Dress Down, Mycosynth Gardens) that all have quite a bit of utility even without the combo.

I saw this too, and because of the natural synergy with Saga my thought was to run something like a UG-post hybrid, leveraging Crop Rotation and/or Torpor Orb at the expense of Dress Down and some of the Blue/Red threats I was on. The issue I kept coming back to was "I just don't want to fold to wasteland" and I'm waiting for the full set before I try and figure it out.

[FTW]

It looks strong. I bought it up in the Dreadstill thread too. But too many colorless lands is bad. You probably want
2-3 Urza's Saga
1-2 Mycosynth Gardens

The combo is great when it works. But if you go 4 Saga 4 Gardens to do the Turn 3 play, it means having 2 colorless lands early, which is bad for literally everything else other than making the 12/12.

There's no reason to hurt your mana when you already have enough Dreadnought enablers. It should be better to only use the Gardens combo only occasionally, rather than risk manascrew.

[It Is Unfair]

I don't write here very often. But I play a lot of mtgo. Decided to brew a bit with Dreadnought and built the following list. I have only played 2 leagues with it this far. But 5-0ed both of them. Only changed 2 cards in between.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456258978863775778/1063959949518065724/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456258978863775778/1064280724682854520/image.png

Maindeck:
4 Urza's Saga
1 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Island

4 Lotus Petal

3 Greater Good
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Endurance
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Dress Down
2 Stifle

Sideboard:
1 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Force of Vigor
4 Force of Negation

If I don't reply here feel free to reach me on Discord instead. I'm quite active in the big UWx Control server (old miracles server).

I see that some of you mentioned Torpor Orb here, I might try one next time. Seems quite alright against the white initiative stompy deck, although I have already beaten it without any.

[Scott]

That's promising, very cool. How many times did you live the draw 12 or draw 6 dreams, or was it not a factor?

[It Is Unfair]

That's promising, very cool. How many times did you live the draw 12 or draw 6 dreams, or was it not a factor?

At happens very often, at least once each match this far. And it's great fun every time. As soon as you do it once it usually chains into another dreadnought if you want as well. So in the end you can usually pass the turn with like 3x force 3x blue, and another dreadnought for next turn.

I have stolen some quick wins of dress down (or stifle) into dreadnought (or double) but in at least half the wins I could draw my entire deck if I wanted to.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What is the typical play pattern where you play Greater Good?

[It Is Unfair]

What is the typical play pattern where you play Greater Good?

Well preferably if you can play it + dreadnought the same turn, that's basically game over. But even just playing it the turn before a Urza's Saga goes off is quite good, there aren't all that much removal for a green 4cmc enchantment. Beyond that it really just depends on the match up and what your hand allows.

This hand was a weak 6 card keep that won for example (turn 1 saga, turn 2 GG):
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456258978863775778/1064140732857847888/image.png

[FTW]

Interesting strategy. I guess Greater Good is another way to tackle the fundamental card disadvantage problem and insulate Dreadnought against Swords/Ending blowouts. It works well in PreModern. I like that it works with the fair side of Uro too -> 1UG: Draw 7, discard 3, gain 3 life, +1 land. Then you also have plenty of escape fuel.

Greater Good seems clunky sometimes, but I guess you have Endurance to pitch it, Brainstorm to bury it, Uro to ramp to 4, and the SB to board it out for cheap interaction. Postboard it looks like a good payoff for Carpet mana letting you convert big mana into big cards.

UG lacks removal. Splashing white for Swords makes sense. Mana gets worse in 3 colors, but then Lotus Petal (and Saga-> Petal) helps avoid some manascrew, so you've already covered a weakness of splashing white.

[It Is Unfair]

Interesting strategy. I guess Greater Good is another way to tackle the fundamental card disadvantage problem and insulate Dreadnought against Swords/Ending blowouts. It works well in PreModern.
Yeah I have found the matchups against removal quite alright, Uro also lines up quite well against that. The fear of those Swords/Ending blowouts is also exactly the reason I didn't want 4 Stifle, they just invite for too many of those StifleNought openings that gets you blown out. Although it's still a powerful card. I hadn't seen the PreModern deck lists before, but they look quite similar! Great minds think alike. The first list I found of google now even had Hickory Woodlot which I have considered testing.


I like that it works with the fair side of Uro too -> 1UG: Draw 7, discard 3, gain 3 life, +1 land. Then you also have plenty of escape fuel.
Yeah it's super sweet. I have even had a few times where I attack and then sac Uro in response to the attack trigger (like if I know it'll just get blocked by a Baleful Strix).



Greater Good seems clunky sometimes, but I guess you have Endurance to pitch it, Brainstorm to bury it, Uro to ramp to 4, and the SB to board it out for cheap interaction. Postboard it looks like a good payoff for Carpet mana letting you convert big mana into big cards.

I have no idea how often it's correct to board it out. But probably a few matchups. That will just need more testing. Endurance has been nice both as a anti delver card, and to reset your own library mid combo. The fairly low green count is not great for consistently pitch casting it early against things like reanimator, but it has happened.




UG lacks removal. Splashing white for Swords makes sense. Mana gets worse in 3 colors, but then Lotus Petal (and Saga-> Petal) helps avoid some manascrew, so you've already covered a weakness of splashing white.
Swords is great. I also considered testing RUG (Bolt/Heat, Minsc, Fury, Pyroblast, Meltdown) but haven't had the time. I just went with the easiest most straight forward build for now.

I'm not saying the deck is broken or anything, but it's been good enough to have a lot of fun with at least. And drawing 12 cards is very fun.

I think the mana base can probably be improved a bit as well. I'll test 1 or 2 Boseiju next time as an additional out against Chalice of the Void.

[FTW]

Good point. Do you have a high enough green count to use Endurance & Force of Vigor on turn 0? If not, should you have other SB cards instead? (e.g. Return to Nature)

For example against Red Stompy you're probably cutting Stifle for Force of Vigor (and a nongreen card for Prismatic Ending), and it still may not have a green card to kill that turn 1 Chalice/Moon. Whereas Prismatic Ending & Return to Nature (or even Serenity) might be more consistent answers.


I think the mana base can probably be improved a bit as well. I'll test 1 or 2 Boseiju next time as an additional out against Chalice of the Void.

Boseiju's strong, but you also need a minimum number of blue sources, so finding space might be tricky. Cutting basic Forest could mean serious problems making Uro against Wasteland decks.

On the plus side, you do seem less weak to Chalice @ 1 than most Stiflenoughts. You've cut down on Stifles, and Saga + Dress Down makes the 12/12 without casting a 1 cmc spell. Or you can pivot into the other threats.

[It Is Unfair]

Good point. Do you have a high enough green count to use Endurance & Force of Vigor on turn 0? If not, should you have other SB cards instead? (e.g. Return to Nature)
Yeah the green count isn't high enough for that reliably. That's why I added 2 surgical sideboard instead of Endurance #3 & #4.

Force of Vigor was mostly added as another 0 mana spell to cast after you draw 12+ or 24+ cards in one turn and want to interact / catch up on board quickly. In which case the green count is plenty good. But that might still be too narrow.


For example against Red Stompy you're probably cutting Stifle for Force of Vigor (and a nongreen card for Prismatic Ending), and it still may not have a green card to kill that turn 1 Chalice/Moon. Whereas Prismatic Ending & Return to Nature (or even Serenity) might be more consistent answers.
Yeah. Blood Moon is certainly very good against the deck, especially due to killing saga right away.



Boseiju's strong, but you also need a minimum number of blue sources, so finding space might be tricky. Cutting basic Forest could mean serious problems making Uro against Wasteland decks.

On the plus side, you do seem less weak to Chalice @ 1 than most Stiflenoughts. You've cut down on Stifles, and Saga + Dress Down makes the 12/12 without casting a 1 cmc spell. Or you can pivot into the other threats.Yeah I'm not sure exactly how to tweak it yet. Will just have to test around a bit. The basic forest hasn't been great this far (not bad either though, but most of the time it could have just been any other land), but if I start adding green disenchant effects like Boseiju or Return to Nature then it would get better. 2nd hydroblast might also be good, the card has over performed quite a bit.

Then there are other great cards that I couldn't fit but that might be playable of course, flusterstorm, sylvan library, life from the loam. I don't know.

[z0anthr0pe]

My meta has lots of reanimator, Sneak n show style and even Applejack type decks. Facing turn 1 fatties makes me sad. Is it a game 1 loss unless you have a StP or force for the entomb or other early enabler? I'd love to hear about how you would side and the game plan.

[It Is Unfair]

Here's a match of Nassif playing against me from stream earlier today. If anyone wants to see the Greater Good deck in action.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1712903566?t=5h58m45s

[Whoshim]

Here's a match of Nassif playing against me from stream earlier today. If anyone wants to see the Greater Good deck in action.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1712903566?t=5h58m45s

I liked how the list worked so well together, with cards filling several different roles. Nice job.

[Clark Kant]

I don't write here very often. But I play a lot of mtgo. Decided to brew a bit with Dreadnought and built the following list. I have only played 2 leagues with it this far. But 5-0ed both of them. Only changed 2 cards in between.



It is useless in multiples but Greater Good is such an amazing and fun piece of tech. I absolutely love it and it has awesome synegy with Uro. Allowing you to cash in Dreadnoughts for 9 net cards in response to removal is such a huge swing in your favor that I am going to make a 1 of Greater Good a staple in everyone of my green Dreadnought lists going forth.

[babau]

Hello, I'm new to the forum and this is my first post so I take this opportunity to say hello to everyone.

This is my current list,

4 Phyrexian dreadnoght
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Lazav, the Multifarious

Protection/removals
4 Force of will
4 daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

research
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Combo
4 stifle
4 dress down

Utility
2 life from the loam

Lands
1 Boseiju, Who Endures
4 wasteland
3 tropical island
3 undergrond sea
1 island
6 fetchland

LFTL interacts great with the deck allows you to recycle wasteland and boseiju, with lazav on the ground allows you to quickly reach uro or dreadnoght, provides cards for uro escape, is synergistic with brainstorm, and provides extra lands to put into play with uro's ability .
Thoughtseize it's the only card in the current meta (ur delver + initiative = 30+% meta) that could make room.
But in a more varied metagame its usefulness is indisputable

I am awaiting your impressions, although I have been playing magic since 1994 I do it only as a hobby and with a small circle of friends I therefore do not have the experience of competitive players.
Thank you all

[Fox]

Basic rules in legacy:
1- No Brainstorm without 7x or 8x Fetch
2- No playing worse mana than Delver. 8x Fetch target 6x U sources...with very conditional option for 7x Fetch target 7x U sources. Your magic number is 14.

[Clark Kant]

Mycosynth Gardens came in the mail yesterday and the card has been excellent. Just leave it always up once you have a Dreadnought online and youre hedged vs removal. A couple of copies are well worth including in Dressnought.

Fox pointed out elsewhere that, Ark4n's 4-1 ed with the below list yesterday.

4x Dragon Rage Channeler
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
1x Grim Lavamancer

2x Currency Converter
1x Phyrexian Furnace
2x Scroll of Fate

4x Dress Down
4x Stifle
4x Brainstorm
4x FoW
4x Bolt
3x Minor Misstep

4x Vista
4x Tarn
4x Mycosynth
3x Island
2x Saga
2x Wasteland
2x Otawara
1x Mountain
1x Volcanic Island

I felt the list can be slightly more focused but its a great starting point.

Edit: I understand the logic of not playing Ponder or EI due to the low number of blue mana sources and high density of colorless lands but I would personally make the following changes to the above list…

-1 Currency Convetor
-1 Scroll of Fate
-1 Minor Misstep
-1 Bolt
-1 Island
+1 Volcanic Island
+1 Street Wraith
+1 Mishra’s Bauble
+1 Manamorphose
+1 Daze

The free cantrips all enable delirium and help fill the yard for Lavamancer.

I would also replace the last remaining Scroll of Fate with Torpor Orb if your local meta has a decent number of Initiative decks.

[babau]

Basic rules in legacy:
1- No Brainstorm without 7x or 8x Fetch
2- No playing worse mana than Delver. 8x Fetch target 6x U sources...with very conditional option for 7x Fetch target 7x U sources. Your magic number is 14.

Ok out 1 S. Library and 1 basic Land
In 2 fetch

Tot 19 Land

[FTW]

Ok out 1 S. Library and 1 basic Land
In 2 fetch

Tot 19 Land

1 basic island is useful against many decks.

Since you're playing Uro (mana hungry), you should be fine going up to 20 lands. That's only 15 real mana sources (+ Wasteland and Boseiju) so you shouldn't mana flood.

8x blue fetch
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
1x Island
4x Wasteland
1x Boseiju

To make space you can cut Sylvan and 1 Daze. You don't want to be on 4x Daze when building up to big mana plays like Uro, Loam, Lazav activations... 4 Daze is for decks that play turn 1 creatures like Delver.

[babau]

Thank you, in fact 18 lands were few,-)
Do you have any recommendations for the side?

[Fox]

Thank you, in fact 18 lands were few,-)
Do you have any recommendations for the side?
I would focus a little more on what happens you have these enabling-Nought cards...but:
1- someone Surgicals your Noughts and has something as simple as Relic to control escape fuel
2- someone kills your Noughts and Wastelands you off escape mana

These are the problems you're not going to fix with a SB. These flaws hard lock your deck into bad matchups against every tier 1-1.5 deck that is not combo or Delver. You can get away with this in combo-boosted leagues...but it probably doesn't work in short challenges anymore due to Tomb/Chalice [Initiative] depriving you of ability to get paired vs Delver. For reference, we used to be seeing about 30% of the winner bracket being Delver. To get back into the 6-7 round challenge scene, you need to guarantee 3-4 pairing autowins vs inbred meta [online-only phenomenon]. You need to keep the overwhelmingly favorable matchup vs Delver and also construct to also autowin against the Initiative fraction that stole Delvers representation total (which Stiflenought was totally reliant upon).

All the issues above creates a ceiling these 3c Stiflenought decks can never break through, having tied their strategy completely to the most-hated zones in the format (graveyard followed by battlefield). If you want to play near that ceiling, the data shows you are on RUG getting CA from Iteration and Uro with SB Blasts. URB with Iteration and Kroxa with Blasts is a worse approach by the numbers, but still second place.

BUG however is horrendous, and this really tracks back to UB being the absolute worst color set to support Nought. It's also the single worst color combination at killing artifacts - and it's so bad that Karn is the best UB answer to Chalice.[B] Recall that you have to chase that Chalice win %, discussed above, particularly when leaving the league environment. While Decay/Trophy-types require black mana, green by itself already has that covered (FoV, Boseju, etc).

Here's the net effect of black:
1- you get removal spells that are more powerful than white removal, but less reliable. Sheoldred's Edict, Bloodchief's Thirst, Murderous Rider all directly target PWs and Sudden Edict has split second. Problem is they're more expensive, and overloading on dual lands is antagonistic to casting these.
2- you get the single best maindeckable, mana-requiring counterspell in the format with Drown in the Loch...but you need removal that puts their stuff in the GY rather than exile...and we're getting back to the issue with overloading on duals vs higher mana costs.
3- you get access to single color pip, 3 mana wraths...but you need to get to that mana, and if you want to avoid hemorrhaging life on a Toxic Deluge that gets countered, then you need snow basics to split with Dead of Winter.
4- you get Cling to Dust, which requires creatures to be put into the GY to give the deck access to lifegain...and you need to develop your mana to use this as your [anti-titan] alternative to Uro/Kroxa. The dual land issues again rear their ugly head.
5- you're still trying to be Stiflenought, and you still need to beat Chalice...and Karn is still the best way to do this...and you need basics to get you to this mana total.
6- You get 2x SB Plague Engineer and 1x Nihil Spellbomb. Cool...oh I can't access easy wins against blue decks, nor can I deal with Murktide as well without 4-5x SB Red Blasts.

Black either adds nothing you need or it takes you down a not-Dreadnought-friendly decision tree. If you want Strix, play Ice-Fang (people play Meltdown, get ahead on cards). If you want discard, draw cards instead with Uro and Iteration (get ahead on cards). If you want Plague Engi, throw Uro into deathtouchers and recur Uro (get ahead on cards). If you want Decay, play the best green spell in the format: FoV (get ahead on cards). If you want Decay, mulligan less b/c Boseju is a land (get ahead on cards). If you want Nihil Spellbomb, play Endurance (block Delver and DRC or flash in to steal the initiative, get ahead on cards). A theme should be standing out here: get ahead on cards...and also have Red Blasts while doing it.

At a baseline you should heavily associate Black + Dreadnought with a 40% winrate...in combo-boosted leagues (it's worse in paper weeklies and tournament settings). If it's Black + Kroxa/Iteration/Red Blasts, way better than 40% but significantly less win % than same thing with Uro/Iteration/Red Blasts.

[FTW]

I understand the logic of not playing Ponder or EI due to the low number of blue mana sources and high density of colorless lands but I would personally make the following changes to the above list…

-1 Currency Convetor
-1 Scroll of Fate
-1 Minor Misstep
-1 Bolt
-1 Island
+1 Volcanic Island
+1 Street Wraith
+1 Mishra’s Bauble
+1 Manamorphose
+1 Daze

The free cantrips all enable delirium and help fill the yard for Lavamancer.

I would also replace the last remaining Scroll of Fate with Torpor Orb if your local meta has a decent number of Initiative decks.

The reason for no Ponder or EI is because Fox designed the deck and Fox doesn't play Ponder or EI with Dreadnought. But there is enough blue mana. It has 14 blue lands + 4 Mycosynth. Ponder or EI would be better than those bad free cantrips.

Bauble is a mistake. DRC does not need Bauble. UR Delver needs Bauble because it doesn't have artifacts or enchantments, so it needs Bauble to add a card type. Urza's Saga & Dreadnought already give you 2 more card types than Delver has, so you don't need Bauble to reach Delirium. Saga into Dreadnought or Phyrexian Furnace gives you 3-4 card types out of nowhere.

Manamorphose & Street Wraith are bad too... DRC already fills the yard for itself and Lavamancer. It doesn't need much help. Currency Converter helps fill the yard too.

Scroll of Fate is much better than Torpor Orb because it can make end of turn Dreadnoughts and convert dead cards into 2/2 threats. Torpor Orb also makes your Uro worse. You could play Torpor in the SB vs Initiative, but the main deck already has Dress Down and Stifle to hate on them.

[Fox]

The net effect of your suggested changes @Clark Kant is cost increase of $800 and significant loss of winrate. My deck costs about $1900, and it uses 1x Volc. That means the cost of entry to legacy is $1100 with a Steam Vents. This gives you a deck with a card pool and a play experience that have use outside of DnT, and has drastically better matchup profile vs the entire format than Shadow ever could.

On the 2nd Volc, you just suggested having 4x Vista and only 3x targets.
On the 1x Daze, that list has 11 lands that do not have descriptor Island.
On the Bauble, turning Mycosynth into a sacrifice rod with zero continual impact on the board state is the worst way to turn the land into a cantrip.
One cutting Scroll, you have to have a plan versus Chalice.
On two completely worthless cards with zero impact on the gamestate (Wraith, Manamorphose), wtf? I have zero interest drawing deeper into a deck with an anti-Chalice plan you just suggested removing.

Here's how this works:
-1 Nought, +1 Lavamancer
-1 Mycosynth, +1 Mountain
-1 Dress Down, -1 Minor Misstep, +2 Shark Typhoon (look at my mana progression, look at DRC, look at Currency Converter)
On things to test to determine max winrate:
-2 Minor Misstep, +2 FoN
-1 Stifle for +1 flex slot (singleton Misstep, another cantripping artifact like Map, another burn spell, another spell land like Spikefield Hazard to go from 83.5% odds of opening hand with 2 land minimum to 85.7%)

This is very important to understand: the reason you don't see Standstill in here is that *maybe* it's good enough CA if Mycosynth can cantrip itself, tap to counter removal, decrease mulls due to color fixing, and on top of all that result in higher slot investment in Dress Down (more CA). Also understand that this is a Standstill manabase, and we don't have Standstill - and that means we need to have anti-flood built in (spell lands, Converter, useful Mycosynth CA targets, Scroll). Almost everything you suggested turns the mana base against the deck's own winrate.

[babau]

I would focus a little more on what happens you have these enabling-Nought cards...but:
1- someone Surgicals your Noughts and has something as simple as Relic to control escape fuel
2- someone kills your Noughts and Wastelands you off escape mana

These are the problems you're not going to fix with a SB. These flaws hard lock your deck into bad matchups against every tier 1-1.5 deck that is not combo or Delver. You can get away with this in combo-boosted leagues...but it probably doesn't work in short challenges anymore due to Tomb/Chalice [Initiative] depriving you of ability to get paired vs Delver. For reference, we used to be seeing about 30% of the winner bracket being Delver. To get back into the 6-7 round challenge scene, you need to guarantee 3-4 pairing autowins vs inbred meta [online-only phenomenon]. You need to keep the overwhelmingly favorable matchup vs Delver and also construct to also autowin against the Initiative fraction that stole Delvers representation total (which Stiflenought was totally reliant upon).

All the issues above creates a ceiling these 3c Stiflenought decks can never break through, having tied their strategy completely to the most-hated zones in the format (graveyard followed by battlefield). If you want to play near that ceiling, the data shows you are on RUG getting CA from Iteration and Uro with SB Blasts. URB with Iteration and Kroxa with Blasts is a worse approach by the numbers, but still second place.

BUG however is horrendous, and this really tracks back to UB being the absolute worst color set to support Nought. It's also the single worst color combination at killing artifacts - and it's so bad that Karn is the best UB answer to Chalice.[B] Recall that you have to chase that Chalice win %, discussed above, particularly when leaving the league environment. While Decay/Trophy-types require black mana, green by itself already has that covered (FoV, Boseju, etc).

Here's the net effect of black:
1- you get removal spells that are more powerful than white removal, but less reliable. Sheoldred's Edict, Bloodchief's Thirst, Murderous Rider all directly target PWs and Sudden Edict has split second. Problem is they're more expensive, and overloading on dual lands is antagonistic to casting these.
2- you get the single best maindeckable, mana-requiring counterspell in the format with Drown in the Loch...but you need removal that puts their stuff in the GY rather than exile...and we're getting back to the issue with overloading on duals vs higher mana costs.
3- you get access to single color pip, 3 mana wraths...but you need to get to that mana, and if you want to avoid hemorrhaging life on a Toxic Deluge that gets countered, then you need snow basics to split with Dead of Winter.
4- you get Cling to Dust, which requires creatures to be put into the GY to give the deck access to lifegain...and you need to develop your mana to use this as your [anti-titan] alternative to Uro/Kroxa. The dual land issues again rear their ugly head.
5- you're still trying to be Stiflenought, and you still need to beat Chalice...and Karn is still the best way to do this...and you need basics to get you to this mana total.
6- You get 2x SB Plague Engineer and 1x Nihil Spellbomb. Cool...oh I can't access easy wins against blue decks, nor can I deal with Murktide as well without 4-5x SB Red Blasts.

Black either adds nothing you need or it takes you down a not-Dreadnought-friendly decision tree. If you want Strix, play Ice-Fang (people play Meltdown, get ahead on cards). If you want discard, draw cards instead with Uro and Iteration (get ahead on cards). If you want Plague Engi, throw Uro into deathtouchers and recur Uro (get ahead on cards). If you want Decay, play the best green spell in the format: FoV (get ahead on cards). If you want Decay, mulligan less b/c Boseju is a land (get ahead on cards). If you want Nihil Spellbomb, play Endurance (block Delver and DRC or flash in to steal the initiative, get ahead on cards). A theme should be standing out here: get ahead on cards...and also have Red Blasts while doing it.

At a baseline you should heavily associate Black + Dreadnought with a 40% winrate...in combo-boosted leagues (it's worse in paper weeklies and tournament settings). If it's Black + Kroxa/Iteration/Red Blasts, way better than 40% but significantly less win % than same thing with Uro/Iteration/Red Blasts.

Thank you, you were really kind to write all this explanation about the best choices based on the current metagame, I will treasure it.

[Fox]

Bauble is a mistake. DRC does not need Bauble. UR Delver needs Bauble because it doesn't have artifacts or enchantments, so it needs Bauble to add a card type. Urza's Saga & Dreadnought already give you 2 more card types than Delver has, so you don't need Bauble to reach Delirium. Saga into Dreadnought or Phyrexian Furnace gives you 3-4 card types out of nowhere.
To add to what @FTW is talking about:

-Playing a deck with <60 cards (via adding Gitaxian Probe clones) helps decks with too few lands not get mana screwed.
-Bauble + Fetchland work together to increase the odds of Delver flipping (despite sabotaging the flip with card type artifact reveals).
-Free cards that cantrip by going to GY, and then become +1 delve mana are effectively cantripping Lotus Petals.

So having stated all 4 mechanisms by which Delver decks specifically benefit from using Bauble, we declaratively know that my deck will never be able to use Bauble as well as or better than Delver can. My list doesn't cheat on land totals, it doesn't need help assembling delirium, it doesn't need to flip a Delver of Secrets, and it doesn't delve. Simply by stating these facts we know that my deck can only play Bauble worse than Delver, meaning it is a winrate-lowering decision (that needs no testing).

[dte]

Simply by stating these facts we know that my deck can only play Bauble worse than Delver, meaning it is a winrate-lowering decision (that needs no testing).

Not disagreeing with bauble or not here (I don't play the deck), but this argument is wrong. It is not because a deck plays a card better that another one shouldn't play it.
Or stop playing brainstorm in Uxx decks and StP in D&T because miracle use them better?

[Fox]

Not disagreeing with bauble or not here (I don't play the deck), but this argument is wrong. It is not because a deck plays a card better that another one shouldn't play it.
Or stop playing brainstorm in Uxx decks and StP in D&T because miracle use them better?
The way people play Brainstorm is with Fetches. You absolutely should never use Brainstorm if you can't use it as well as everyone else (averaging 8x Fetch).

No matter what deck Plow is in, it requires the opponent to provide targets, otherwise it rots in hand. About the only decks that can't achieve this level of success with Plow are the Chalice on 1 team.

Now think about putting Plow in a Dreadnought deck where no other Plow user can goldfish to gain 12; that's playing the card better (not a great line vs non-Bolt decks, but also only a matter of time before a playable card comes along that says "when you gain X, drain opponent X").

The way to maximizing winrate is always going to be finding something novel that others can't use or doing "the thing" better than any other deck. You are allowed to make sideways moves with staples as long as they allow other aspects of your deck to do "the thing". If that means buying time with Bstorm/Fetch or treading water with Plow, it's good enough.

These sideways moves affect the gamestate, but Bauble doesn't. You are required to get mana out of Bauble in this format whether you funnel it into something like delve, threshold (eg Cabal Rit), metalcraft (Mox), or improvise. Again you have to accomplish this before ever testing the card.

[Clark Kant]

The Mycosynth has been great. It enables Nought and it also protects Nought from removal.

I think its finally time to cut Stifles from the Dressnought as both Dress Down and The Mycosysynth are stronger and have more utility and warrant 4 copies.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The Mycosynth has been great. It enables Nought and it also protects Nought from removal.

I think its finally time to cut Stifles from the Dressnought as both Dress Down and The Mycosysynth are stronger and have more utility and warrant 4 copies.

I have the gardens in anticipation of this but I just love stifle too much for that to be the cut.

[Fox]

The Mycosynth has been great. It enables Nought and it also protects Nought from removal.

I think its finally time to cut Stifles from the Dressnought as both Dress Down and The Mycosysynth are stronger and have more utility and warrant 4 copies.
Can't be forgetting where your winrate comes from. Stifle beats combo, allows you to mangle Delver's mana base, and creates games where opponents have to trade resources ineffectively (eg discard 2 cards to counter Stifle). The backup mode of Stifle has always been to make a Nought. Making Noughts with Stifle is a salvage line, and you do not want to be losing a land drop to force this line of play. It's also a three land play...so you might want to protect that glass cannon manabase with Stifle.

[FTW]

The way to maximizing winrate is always going to be finding something novel that others can't use or doing "the thing" better than any other deck. You are allowed to make sideways moves with staples as long as they allow other aspects of your deck to do "the thing". If that means buying time with Bstorm/Fetch or treading water with Plow, it's good enough.

These sideways moves affect the gamestate, but Bauble doesn't. You are required to get mana out of Bauble in this format whether you funnel it into something like delve, threshold (eg Cabal Rit), metalcraft (Mox), or improvise. Again you have to accomplish this before ever testing the card.

I think dte's point was a general one, not specific to any card (Bauble, Brainstorm, StP, etc). It's a fallacy to go from "deck B cannot use the card as well as deck A" to "the card would definitively lower deck B's win rate, without testing needed". There are other reasons you reached the conclusion for Bauble vs for staples like Brainstorm & StP, but that argument itself is faulty.

For example, adding Black Lotus would increase many decks' win rates (ignoring game loss for illegal deck). Just because some combo deck uses Black Lotus even better doesn't mean it wouldn't also increase other decks' win rates.

The relevant question is "does this card increase my deck's win rate?" not "is this card even better in another deck?" (either way Bauble fails)

[Fox]

I think dte's point was a general one, not specific to any card (Bauble, Brainstorm, StP, etc). It's a fallacy to go from "deck B cannot use the card as well as deck A" to "the card would definitively lower deck B's win rate, without testing needed". There are other reasons you reached the conclusion for Bauble vs for staples like Brainstorm & StP, but that argument itself is faulty.

For example, adding Black Lotus would increase many decks' win rates (ignoring game loss for illegal deck). Just because some combo deck uses Black Lotus even better doesn't mean it wouldn't also increase other decks' win rates.

The relevant question is "does this card increase my deck's win rate?" not "is this card even better in another deck?" (either way Bauble fails)

This works up to a point. When you start imitating a deck and have the same slot totals invested in Ponder, Brainstorm, FoW, Iteration, etc; and then add more copying to it with Bauble, we have to start directly comparing the deck winrates. The slots necessary to accomplish distinctly different gameplay are rapidly diminishing. At some point you are just worse Delver with jankier dudes. Copying slots is just speedrunning your way to a less competitive endpoint if you can't do [insert thing] the same or better.

As far as Black Lotus goes, it would be like wanting to make a Null Rod tribal deck with 4x Lotus (but we also need to pretend Karn doesn't exist, because every deck would be a Lotus deck, and thus be forced to jam 4x Karn). We know such a deck can't possibly use Lotus as well as other decks since it is killing its own topdecks. Same thing a Chalice deck will run into if they jam Plow. In the first case you can't use the mana at least as well as other decks, and in the latter you can't use the card/effect as well as other decks. We can explain the lower win rates in all sorts of ways, but at the end of the day they used the same tool worse; and that's the crux of the problem. It's the same as jamming Tarmo vs Murktide: same thing, just crappier.

Cards like Brainstorm and Plow don't determine a direction. They don't move the advantage bar or produce overwhelming advantage or force opponents to answer a question. If you rearrange things with Bstorm or buy time with a Plow you're left with a multitude of novel paths to take (aka deck construction). You still need to select a novel path and do it better than anyone else. Differing novel paths are like apples and oranges; they have different matchup profiles. It doesn't matter if staples lead to a single, knowably best aggro build (like say Delver)...it doesn't mean everyone has to play aggro, and it certainly doesn't mean aggro beats every other novel approach to the game.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think if your self given example is "I would not play black lotus, given the chance" then maybe your deck building heuristics are utter trash and you need to throw them out

Backed up by the fact there is a format we can point to and say "wait a minute, people play null rod and lotus together all the time"

[Fox]

I think if your self given example is "I would not play black lotus, given the chance" then maybe your deck building heuristics are utter trash and you need to throw them out

Backed up by the fact there is a format we can point to and say "wait a minute, people play null rod and lotus together all the time"

Re-read it. I said every single deck would have to start at 4x Karn and 4x Lotus. So if we pretend Karn doesn't exist...I said nobody would get ahead by ramming their 4x Lotus into their own Null Rod tribal - it would be a monumental failure. Null Rod would be soft-banned b/c every not-Rod deck would use Lotus better.

Learn to read.
---
So going back to the suggestion to play Bauble, it shows a fundamental deficit in understanding how magic works. That card is a cantripping Lotus Petal via the delve pathway in the Delver deck. This pathway is not in my list. If you think Bauble would better my deck (completely skipping on the cantripping Lotus Petal effect), it means you forgot that mana is the most basic and important currency to pay attention to in the game.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Re-read it. I said every single deck would have to start at 4x Karn and 4x Lotus. So if we pretend Karn doesn't exist...I said nobody would get ahead by ramming their 4x Lotus into their own Null Rod tribal - it would be a monumental failure. Null Rod would be soft-banned b/c every not-Rod deck would use Lotus better.

Learn to read.

This is a weird gaslight because your post is still up, unedited:

As far as Black Lotus goes, it would be like wanting to make a Null Rod tribal deck with 4x Lotus (but we also need to pretend Karn doesn't exist, because every deck would be a Lotus deck, and thus be forced to jam 4x Karn). We know such a deck can't possibly use Lotus as well as other decks since it is killing its own topdecks. Same thing a Chalice deck will run into if they jam Plow. In the first case you can't use the mana at least as well as other decks, and in the latter you can't use the card/effect as well as other decks. We can explain the lower win rates in all sorts of ways, but at the end of the day they used the same tool worse; and that's the crux of the problem. It's the same as jamming Tarmo vs Murktide: same thing, just crappier.
You opened right up saying that you were going to pretend Karn doesn't exist. So no, you didn't say every deck would be 4 Karn 4 lotus, you said you were going to intentionally exclude it from the example.
You also are so far into your own make-believe land you don't seem to understand that they do run null rod and lotus together. In the same deck. The whole thesis of this tangent was you saying not to run the cards that would be worse in your deck.

So, once again, you're wrong about just about everything and shame on everyone (especially me) for still engaging with you. How do people fall for your shtick every time? Go back to fucking off.

[Fox]

This is a weird gaslight because your post is still up, unedited:

You opened right up saying that you were going to pretend Karn doesn't exist. So no, you didn't say every deck would be 4 Karn 4 lotus, you said you were going to intentionally exclude it from the example.
You also are so far into your own make-believe land you don't seem to understand that they do run null rod and lotus together. In the same deck. The whole thesis of this tangent was you saying not to run the cards that would be worse in your deck.

So, once again, you're wrong about just about everything and shame on everyone (especially me) for still engaging with you. How do people fall for your shtick every time? Go back to fucking off.

So we're talking about Black Lotus, so you do understand that every single deck has Lotus right? And you understand that every deck has to spam turn 0 Karn right? That is what Black Lotus leads to. It's the only endpoint...So knowing that this is the only endpoint, and that Karn is a 1-sided Null Rod...then nobody would play symmetrical Null Rod effects, because everybody would be a 1-sided Null Rod deck.

So what the discussion has been about is adding cards that other people use effectively, but you can't. So if we pretend there is no Karn in this hypothetical, we already know that Null Rod spamming would be self-defeating. It would be very cool and powerful feeling to have 12/60 card be Black Lotus and Null Rod and Ouphe wouldn't it.....until you realize everyone else is going to Lotus -> Minsc or whatever you into the dirt. At no point are you getting out of that by deploying redundant Null Rod effects and topdecking Black Loti you can't activate (from waaaaaaay behind on board).

So why would the Null Rod spammer lose? At the core of the answer is that they can't use Black Lotus as well as or better than everyone else. As it turns out, mana is kind of important to pay attention to.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nice try, but fuck off!

[Fox]

Nice try, but fuck off!
Since you don't want to participate in a meaningful discussion, I suggest you proxy up what you think is a viable example of a vintage deck playing Lotus and Null Rod. I want you too add 3x Lotus to it...and then I want you to jam it against like any other vintage deck that also gets to play 4x Lotus. Let me know when you understand just how unplayable that idea is when your opponent always has the Lotus in their opener (particularly when you're on the draw). Gentlemens' agreement to use no Karns ofc.

Here's your helpful stats (not counting mulligans): your opponent is going from 11.7% to 39.9% of opening hands with Lotus. Best of luck to our Null Rod hero.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Since you don't want to participate in a meaningful discussion,

Nice try, but fuck off!

[Fox]

We're making progress, I can feel it. You play legacy, and you know that slinging do-nothing 1-for-1 discard spells at Uro is futile. Deep down you know that spamming do-nothings at do-somethings works nowhere. Connect the dots, you're so close!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

We're making progress, I can feel it. You play legacy, and you know that slinging do-nothing 1-for-1 discard spells at Uro is futile. Deep down you know that spamming do-nothings at do-somethings works nowhere. Connect the dots, you're so close!


Nice try, but fuck off!

[Fox]

Nope. We're so close.

You brought up a point that was worth discussing. You said that we would see wild success out of 4x Black Lotus Null Rod tribal decks in @FTWs hypothetical. You point is based solely on the existence of 1x Black Lotus decks with Null Rods in Vintage.

The thing about having an adult discussion is thinking critically. You overlooked the fact that successfully dropping a Null Rod is a different thing in a deck that only has 1x slot of Lotus vs 4x slots (see also how 4x Chalice in legacy does not get to play 1-drops that can't escape Chalice through the Saga pathway). You also overlooked that every time a current vintage Null Rod deck stares down an opponent, that that opponent only has an 11.7% chance to open a hand with Lotus...and when they mull they get another 11.7% chance to see a Lotus...and when we do the math we recognize that current Null Rod decks in vintage owe a lot of their success to that 11.7% not being 39.9% (with one mull, that is over 50% odds to open Lotus, and that might be a problem if they can just win on the play by going down to 3 looking for something as simple as land, Lotus, Minsc vs someone drawing do-nothings like Null Rod)

So you brought up a reasonable discussion point, and I told you why it doesn't reasonably work. While I'm sure responding with a content bereft personal attack feels good, we're right back at the same place where in @FTWs hypothetical where the reason a 4x Lotus deck will never be viable as Null Rod tribal, because they're playing from too far behind and through too much self-sabotage - it's actually a lot like playing discard tribal vs Uro.

So the point stands. The reason a deck or idea finds its way to being uncompetitive can be stated as; failing to do something novel [and relevant] better than any other deck could. So the reason why Dreadnought can't run Bauble can be simply understood as: Delver does it better, and we would do it worse... because we can't use it as a cantripping Lotus Petal.

To help you understand this we can look at DRC. Dreadnought decks use it better than Delver ever could. Delver is consistent and powered (tier 1), but Dreadnought is tier 2 meaning that it is overpowered at the cost of consistency. For us DRC addresses an aspect of our game the generates disproportionate amounts of win % b/c it addresses a primary deficiency (which Delver decks do not share).

This doesn't mean that Delver doesn't get to play DRC b/c we're the best at using it. It means that Delver is not allowed to use DRC in the same way as we do - they have to find a different novel direction and be better at that novel thing than anyone else. In the simplest of terms Delver has defined their novel direction as using Bauble as a cantripping Lotus Petal - and they're better at it than anyone.

But that doesn't mean that only Delver gets to use Bauble. Other decks still get to do novel things with Bauble that still make mana like threshold (Cabal Rit) or metalcraft (Mox) or improvise (Kappa).

This is all that I have said, and until we see trash ideas like Tarmogoyf vs Murktide or discard vs Uro winning from way behind, we know that every deck in magic traces its success to being the best at the novel thing it does. It doesn't mean they get to have a monopoly on staples.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

*more bullshit*


Nope.

[FTW]

As far as Black Lotus goes, it would be like wanting to make a Null Rod tribal deck with 4x Lotus (but we also need to pretend Karn doesn't exist, because every deck would be a Lotus deck, and thus be forced to jam 4x Karn). We know such a deck can't possibly use Lotus as well as other decks since it is killing its own topdecks. Same thing a Chalice deck will run into if they jam Plow. In the first case you can't use the mana at least as well as other decks, and in the latter you can't use the card/effect as well as other decks. We can explain the lower win rates in all sorts of ways, but at the end of the day they used the same tool worse; and that's the crux of the problem. It's the same as jamming Tarmo vs Murktide: same thing, just crappier.

First, you're assuming the an equilibrium state reached of optimal design for all decks. The context of this discussion is whether adding a card would improve the win-rate of a New & Developmental deck, which may not yet be optimized.

You also picked a very extreme case with anti-synergy (Null Rod). That falls into the "other reasons" category. If you take some generic brew deck like MonoGreen Beasts, adding Lotus would increase the win rate, even if some storm combo deck uses Lotus even better.

Anyway, Lotus does increase the winrate of Vintage Fish/Stax/Prison decks. That's why they run it. Lotus helps them power out turn 1 prison pieces on the play. You argue this only works because they run Lotus as a 1x and not a 4x, but they often run some number of Moxen too, so it amounts to the same frequencies.

The scenario you're describing is Null Rod tribal with 4x Lotus On the Draw vs proactive deck (aggro, combo) with 4x Lotus On the Play. Yes, the aggro/combo deck is favored. That's not because Lotus is winrate lowering in Null Rod tribal, or because Null Rod only works in formats with Lotus @ 1x, but because Null Rod itself is bad on the draw vs Lotus. Null Rod is very bad against Lotus on the draw, because Lotus has already been used on turn 1 - it's too late. It's like playing Suppression Field in Legacy turn 2 on the draw, after opponent has fetched twice & in a deck that also has fetchlands! The problem you identify has more to do with Null Rod being a bad Lotus hate piece than mana acceleration being bad in Null Rod tribal.

Vintage decks mainly run Null Rod to hate on Moxen (present at 3-5x the rate of Lotus). Null Rod is good against Moxen on the play & on the draw. It's also good against Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Time Vault, etc. These artifacts are already present in Vintage decks at higher frequency than 4x Lotus, and accelerated Null Rod has still always been a pillar of the format.

If you have a Legacy format with 4x Lotus but no Moxen, then Null Rod tribal with Lotus will be too slow on the draw. But that has more to do with Null Rods failing to stop Lotus on the play (the deck is stuck powering out cards that can't help it catch up) rather than Lotus being bad in the Null Rod deck. A Null Rod deck with lands instead of Lotus would have the same problem on the draw (fail to catch up to what the other decks are powering out with Lotus), except it would be even worse on the play!! Null Rod is the win-rate lowering component here, not Lotus.



I said nobody would get ahead by ramming their 4x Lotus into their own Null Rod tribal - it would be a monumental failure.

Why? Lotus casts Turn 1 Karn & Turn 1 Null Rod & Turn 1 Collector Ouphe and all other cards that are good against the opponent's Lotus deck when going first. Without Lotus, you would not be able to power out all those cards on turn 1 as easily, letting opponent use their Lotus first.

The other decks may use Lotus better, but Null Rod Tribal would have an even lower win rate without Lotus to help it power out turn 1 prison pieces. Casting Turn 4 Karn would be much worse than casting Turn 1 Karn.

The relevant comparison for win rate is:
a) Null Rod Tribal with Lotus
b) Null Rod Tribal without Lotus

NOT
a) Null Rod Tribal with Lotus
c) Other deck with Lotus

Whether c > a (the other deck uses Lotus better) doesn't change whether a > b. If a > b, the Null Rod deck is still better with Lotus in it than without Lotus. Even if that win rate is 30% ("soft-banned") and deck c is 55%, Lotus still increases the win rate for deck a.

This is the exact flawed reasoning with Dressnought vs Delver that I was trying to point out with the analogy, and you used it again. Other decks' win rates are tangential to whether Lotus improves Null Rod Tribal's win rate.

Back to Delver and Bauble:
Bauble is bad in your deck is not because Delver uses Bauble better (Delve & extra card type for Delirium), but because Bauble doesn't really do much for your deck. It doesn't add anything that your strategy needs. It's just a filler "slowtrip". Cards like that make mulligans and cantrips worse without advancing your game plan.

I agree with you on the conclusion. I just felt like you were arguing backwards from the conclusion, using a faulty reason to justify it. dte seemed to say the same thing. While it amounts to the same conclusion either way in this case, that reasoning could be wrong for other decks and other scenarios.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

do not engage!

[Clark Kant]

If we needed to build a monoblue dressnought list, how would you build it?

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Delver of Secrets
2x Murktide Regent
2x Sailor’s Bane
1x Brazen Borrower

1x Currency Converter
1x Phyrexian Furnace

4x Dress Down
4x Brainstorm
4x FoW
3x Stifle
3x Minor Misstep
2x Ponder
1x Flusterstorm
1x Misdirection
1x Daze
1x Slip Out the Back
1x Force of Negation

4x The Mycosynth Garden
4x Snow-Covered Island
3x Otawara, Soaring City
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Flooded Strand
3x Urza’s Saga
2x Wasteland

SB:
4x Hydroblast
3x Mindbreak Trap

[Fox]

If we needed to build a monoblue dressnought list, how would you build it?

4x Dress Down

4x The Mycosynth Garden
4x Snow-Covered Island
3x Otawara, Soaring City
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Flooded Strand
3x Urza’s Saga
2x Wasteland


MonoU died the moment they printed Prismatic Vista, now monoU always begins with 4x Tarn, 4 Vista, 1x Mountain + 4x Bolt and 4x SB Blasts. MonoU died harder when they printed DRC, so add 4x DRC and 1x Volc (Steam Vents if budget). MonoU dies yet again with the printing of Myscosynth, which taps for red. Keep going till you get to my list for ~$1100 . It's also important to recognize that people play Minsc as the premier "I don't want to lose to Red Blast" PW...and just how trashy the card is vs Bolt.

More than not having red, you have 3x Otawara (legendary land) and 3x Saga. Going from 2x to 3x is roughly triple the odds of opening hands with 2 copies of the same land name. Going up on Saga with max Dress Down is incorrect. On Otawara it replaces Brazen Borrower, and as a result mulligans decrease; the only reason Brazen still sees play is that cantrip cartel decks can't get to 4 mana and/or they can't restrict themselves to a 1c land, so they have to play the worse card (loses to REB, loses to discard, loses to Steppe, loses to Counterbalance, can't protect their own cards, and the list goes on). Once you have a real mana base, there should be zero Brazen. [B]6x Fetch is not enough to play Brainstorm.

Sailors' Bane and Dreadnought don't go in the same deck; cards like Dress Down and Otawara and higher land counts sabotage Bane and Delver. Likewise, bad mana and Brazen spam required for Bane antagonizes any Dreadnought plan. Highly conditional spells (like Stifle and Misstep) with Bane is also suspect; you should always play 2x FoN with Bane b/c FoN and FoW are Dark Ritual (net +2 mana).

Playing slow, random big dudes lacks synergy. Get on board from turn 1 and kill them, we have DRC and Lavamancer - this is how you make them tap out of Red Blast. Attack the cards you know people have to play.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If we needed to build a monoblue dressnought list, how would you build it?

4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
2x Delver of Secrets
2x Murktide Regent
2x Sailor’s Bane
1x Brazen Borrower

1x Currency Converter
1x Phyrexian Furnace

4x Dress Down
4x Brainstorm
4x FoW
3x Stifle
3x Minor Misstep
2x Ponder
1x Flusterstorm
1x Misdirection
1x Daze
1x Slip Out the Back
1x Force of Negation

4x The Mycosynth Garden
4x Snow-Covered Island
3x Otawara, Soaring City
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Flooded Strand
3x Urza’s Saga
2x Wasteland

SB:
4x Hydroblast
3x Mindbreak Trap

A mono U list I don't think could run saga and Dress Down. While I think that it's ok to have multiple plans, they can't actively work against each-other and hopping your saga just lives for 3 turns when the Deck to Beat is on Wasteland sounds like a bad time.
I also think you're missing what made Bane so playable over murktide, which was a card like Uro which pressured your own graveyard. If you're not using your GY for anything else then Murky is probably better. So if you have no uro then you'd need to max out on Force, Misdirection, Borrower, ect to leverage the exile clause on Bane, which is a lot of slots I don't think you want to commit.
If I was going to build a mono-U list there's two directions I would consider: First, a control deck. Op resolves nothing, and what they do resolve is Brazenly Borrowed.
The second is a torpor orb stompy. You have blue cards for a light protection suite (force, misdirection, stifle) but otherwise you're running a deck that is looking to maximize turn 1 dreadnoughts. Think Monolith->Orb->Dreadnought. I had some success with this approach when I first got into legacy, but that was a long time ago and if I tried it again today I'd look towards the 12-cast (or whatver they're calling the cannoneer affinity decks) lists for inspiration on where you can insert your dreadnought package.

[FTW]

If we needed to build a monoblue dressnought list, how would you build it?

Why are you forced into monoblue? The problem with monoblue is it lacks removal. Splashing red (Bolt) or white (Swords) is easy and would fix that, giving you removal and better sideboard tools.

If it's a budget issue, you can play Ur or Uw with only 1 dual, and you can use a Shockland if you really have to.

For the sake of this hypothetical discussion, I'll assume you're stuck in monoblue.

#1 Problem: Removal
You need a way to deal with creatures and other permanents. The normal way is to use white cards, red cards, or black cards. In monoblue that means multiple Brazen Borrower. (Otawara is important too, but on its own too slow to stop things like fast Marit Lage or Murktide).
You could also try playing Thing in the Ice as an alternate threat and thing that bounces creatures.
Subtlety may be a good idea, but then you need a powerful draw engine like Standstill to support it. Rood had a good brew like that earlier. Notice the combo with Subtlety. It's "Force of Creature". You can force a Murktide/Minsc/Narset/WPA, then Stifle the sacrifice trigger to keep a 1-mana 3/3 flyer. Or you can cycle Dress Down and then spend 2 cards to make a 0-mana flash 3/3, ambushing an attacker or planeswalker. It has synergy with Dreadnought cards and also answers things blue struggles with (creatures & planeswalkers). The only problem is it hemorrhages cards, so you really need to follow up with something like Standstill to get cards back.
Back in 2010 the monoblue tech was Vedalken Shackles or Sower of Temptation, but those are way too slow today.
Ultimately you need some way to interact with faster resolved threats, because you won't be the fastest deck in Legacy and adding more fatties (Murktide, Sailors' Bane) won't fix that.

#2 Problem: Stable blue mana
The other thing is you need to be careful about colorless lands. You need minimum 14 blue lands with 7-8 fetches. Colorless lands (Mycosynth, Saga, Wasteland) come after that, and you also have to balance the risk of mana flooding. 4x each = 26 lands, too many, so you have to cut back on some. 20-22 lands seems like a good spot. That still means prioritizing some over others and picking a plan.

#3 Problem: Pick a direction
If you're on the Delver/Daze tempo plan, 20 lands max and I agree with FourDogs that you should be on Murktide and drop Sailors' Bane. This sort of build wants Delver, Ponder, Murktide, Daze (because you'll be tapping out for early threats), and skip Minor Misstep (because you'll be tapping out for early threats). Thing in The Ice may be good here.

Edit - Example:

//Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Murktide Regent
2 Brazen Borrower

//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Dismember
1 Slip Out the Back

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Lands: 20
2 The Mycosynth Gardens
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
8 Island

//Sideboard: 15
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Hydroblast
2 Submerge
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Echoing Truth
1 Energy Flux


It'll be a worse tempo deck than UR Delver or UR Dressnought, but within your rigid parameters it should be at least FNM playable. It might be even better cutting Delver for Thing in the Ice.

Minor Misstep is much better in a "draw go" version without Ponder or Delver, where you pass with T1 land untapped threatening Stifle or Misstep. That sort of build has 0 Delver, 0 Ponder, 0 Daze, and probably leans into an instant-speed controlling plan with cards like Brazen Borrower, Shark Typhoon, Standstill, Subtlety...

Edit - Example:

//Lands: 22
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
5 Island
1 Hall of Storm Giants
2 Otawara, Soaring City
4 The Mycosynth Gardens
2 Urza's Saga

//Creatures: 8
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Subtlety

//Spells: 15
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Minor Misstep

//Enchantments: 10
4 Dress Down
4 Standstill
2 Shark Typhoon

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Karn, the Great Creator

//Artifacts: 3
1 Currency Converter
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scroll of Fate

//Sideboard: 15
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Torpor Orb
2 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Force of Negation
2 Brazen Borrower
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Ashiok, Dream Render


Again, this is worse than UW Dreadstill or UR Dreadstill, because monoblue lacks the tools to play a proper control game, but within your rigid monoblue parameters it should at least do a thing.

But the much better plan is to not be monoblue and just splash a color.

[Fox]

Bouncing creatures isn't all that effective. If you're bouncing specifically Murktide, Lage, or Nought it will usually work out. The problem is that Goyf-types (Murktide) really destroy the diversity of the format and either force people to either play Goyf or play anti-Goyf, or just opt out and combo hard. When it comes to all the anti-Goyf options, they're all creatures you can't bounce without falling behind (Strix, Ice-Fang, SCM, Uro, SFM) - this by itself is too much of the meta to carry around a self-defeating removal package...and it gets worse when you think about bouncing hamster tokens.

You can do one of these:

-You can avoid any Dreadnought stuff, and instead play crappy Goyf (Bane) to beat Goyf (Murktide) via lots of Brazen; b/c while Murktide #1 comes out faster than Bane #1, Bane #2-4 comes out faster than Murktide #2-4. To beat anti-Goyf strats however, you're going to need Lavamancer or Plague Engi-type cards. You're also going to need ramp (DRC). At 11-12 slots of dudes + 3x Brazen (since you're really targeting MurkGoyf), you're not allowed to add Noughts or Dreadnought tech. Instead you just copy/paste UR Delver stuff with a worse dude in the Goyf slot...and b/c your mana is going to be awful while you're also trying to play Iteration/Sanctuary/Daze, you don't get to mess around with Saga.

-You could also get a 7/7 ward 3 dude on a land (Hall of Storm Giants) which says "every time opponent makes a PW at sorc speed, dome it for 7 b/c all kill spells cost 4)". This requires the hardest of hard control elements (Teferi 3cmc and Karn murdering lands), and also requires mana development (no Saga allowed). This is UW Dreadstill, and Timeless Dragon + Standstill + higher land totals all favor Storm Giants over Saga/Gardens. The main thing Mycosynth adds is a 3rd color for Ending without corrupting the colored manabase.

-If you want Saga/Gardens, that's UR Dreadnought and it works b/c the CA pathway is consistent ability to find value trinkets with option to copy with Mycosynth thus turning lands into value. Bane/Brazen are not part of the plan; they don't play nicely with the tech.

So name your CA engine and follow it. No half-plans. All synergy, all the time. Do something novel, and do it better than any other deck in the format.
---
One more thing on 3x Otawara and 3x Saga: self-defeating at these level. Trying to channel Otawara with so much land sacrifice is problematic. Trying to power out constructs with 3x legendary land is problematic. These cards play at 2-ofs.

On Delver of Secrets the card is basically unplayable, and widely regarded as the worst card in Delver. The unplayability of this card was first demonstrated by UR Dreadstill where Standstill then Shark'nado then some utility targets for Saga brought card type instant/sorcery below 24 slots. Delver has only ever been a good card in the early games, and once you start racing towards 20 instant/sorc it doesn't even matter if you have the Delver early b/c it cannot be trusted to flip. The only thing you can trust Delver of Secrets to do, beyond not flipping, is be one of the absolute worst mid-to-late game topdecks (like seriously, it's almost as bad as Mox Diamond at this point in a game). Delver of Secrets is also absolute garbage below 4x copies, b/c the only thing the card ever offered was a good early game - like it's so bad at 2x copies that Ascendant Spirit would win more games. That's why we always always always choose DRC before any of this.

[FTW]

My comment was building/exploring within OP's defined parameters: monoblue only, Dreadnought deck, the types of cards he listed. Otherwise the obvious answer is to play a 2nd color, which we all said.


-You can avoid any Dreadnought stuff,

Unfortunately outside OP's parameters.


-You could also get a 7/7 ward 3 dude on a land (Hall of Storm Giants) which says "every time opponent makes a PW at sorc speed, dome it for 7 b/c all kill spells cost 4)". This requires the hardest of hard control elements (Teferi 3cmc and Karn murdering lands), and also requires mana development (no Saga allowed). This is UW Dreadstill, and Timeless Dragon + Standstill + higher land totals all favor Storm Giants over Saga/Gardens. The main thing Mycosynth adds is a 3rd color for Ending without corrupting the colored manabase.

I like this in a grindier Standstill plan, although you can't complete the package (Teferi, Dragon, proper control elements) in monoblue. Monoblue control without Wraths or Ending?
Edit: I had vaguely discussed the option above, but now edited to include a potential list. 1 Hall fits in well. But it looks anemic at control.


If you want Saga/Gardens, that's UR Dreadnought

Outside OP's parameters. He could still do monoblue with Saga/Gardens into trinkets, without Sailors' Bane (bad) or Delver, but he needs some sort of answers to early creatures.


Bouncing creatures isn't all that effective. If you're bouncing specifically Murktide, Lage, or Nought it will usually work out.

Those are the main threats that would race a tempo deck with Dreadnought & Murktide. You can also out-tempo Minsc & Boo by bouncing an attacking Hamster, then attack the PW with a 3/1 flyer (if you don't have the mana to flash & counter-attack, bounce Minsc and try to counter it?). Flash 3/1 also kills Narset. Most importantly the same bounce also removes Chalice @ 1 or Ensnaring Bridge lock (vs combat-reliant deck), so your removal deals with a whole range of problems. Otawara answers the prison pieces too, but Otawara can't do the first few modes with reasonable tempo or give you another threat that counts to 20.

Bounce is also marginally effective vs these accelerated Initiative creatures (if they blow 1-time acceleration on it) or if you can follow up with Daze (-2 turns to opponent). Sure it's not as good as permanent removal, but what other options do you have in monoblue?

The only real option is Dismember. Dismember will answers fast creatures that are ineffective to bounce (DRC, Allosaurus, WPA), but it can't answer bigger threats. Luckily Borrower covers those bigger threats well. So play a mix of both? What else are you going to do in monoblue?



They're all creatures you can't bounce without falling behind (Strix, Ice-Fang, SCM, Uro, SFM) - this by itself is too much of the meta to carry around a self-defeating removal package...and it gets worse when you think about bouncing hamster tokens.

Initiative has mostly pushed fair midrange out of the format. You can also interact with those creatures via Dress Down (also good vs Initiative), so OP might not get punished for it in the current meta.



On Delver of Secrets the card is basically unplayable, and widely regarded as the worst card in Delver. The unplayability of this card was first demonstrated by UR Dreadstill where Standstill then Shark'nado then some utility targets for Saga brought card type instant/sorcery below 24 slots. Delver has only ever been a good card in the early games, and once you start racing towards 20 instant/sorc it doesn't even matter if you have the Delver early b/c it cannot be trusted to flip. The only thing you can trust Delver of Secrets to do, beyond not flipping, is be one of the absolute worst mid-to-late game topdecks (like seriously, it's almost as bad as Mox Diamond at this point in a game). Delver of Secrets is also absolute garbage below 4x copies, b/c the only thing the card ever offered was a good early game - like it's so bad at 2x copies that Ascendant Spirit would win more games. That's why we always always always choose DRC before any of this.

Good point. Especially with the low spell count. But then what else do you play to race as monoblue tempo after Dreadnought + Murktide? Thing in The Ice? Do you just give up on any turn 1 play and leave mana open for Minor Misstep/Stifle/StubbyD?

Remember - DRC is outside OP's parameters.

[Clark Kant]

Awesome suggestions. Thanks everyone. This was mostly a theoretical discussion to see what tools blue lacks, because it felt like a controllish blue deck should be able to win with a surprise 12/12 trampler easier than with other blue win conditions, and its viable now due to the high density of ways blue has to enable the 12/12.

[Fox]

My comment was building/exploring within OP's defined parameters: monoblue only, Dreadnought deck, the types of cards he listed. Otherwise the obvious answer is to play a 2nd color, which we all said.

I mean the OP list is technically 5c, it has 4x Mycosynth and 3x Saga targeting 1x Currency Converter. Get the correct Fetches and a basic Mountain...and even if you don't do this, just add 4x Bolt and 4x SB Blast and cast them off the "monoU" mana already in OP list.

[Clark Kant]

It looks like BoshNRoll tried out the Greater Good list and 5-0ed with it…

Artifact (2)
1 Chrome Mox
1 Soul-Guide Lantern

Creature (10)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Endurance

Enchantment (7)
3 Greater Good
4 Dress Down

Instant (17)
1 Misdirection
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
2 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Abrade
1 Minor Misstep

Land (19)
1 Island
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Urza's Saga

Sorcery (5)
3 Ponder
2 Expressive Iteration
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Torpor Orb
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Hydroblast
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Vigor
1 Veil of Summer
2 Run Afoul
1 Endurance

I think Greater Good is an excellent 1 of in green lists but I really dont think I would play more than 1.

Meanwhile, Ark4n 5-0ed with a list featuring 4 The Mycosynth Gardens…

Artifact (9)
4 Mox Diamond
1 Aether Spellbomb
2 Scroll of Fate
1 Shadowspear
1 Soul-Guide Lantern

Creature (8)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Haywire Mite

Instant (12)
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

Land (25)
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
4 Urza's Saga
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 Otawara, Soaring City
4 The Mycosynth Gardens

Sorcery (6)
2 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Hydroblast
2 Torpor Orb
4 Endurance
2 Force of Negation
2 Force of Vigor
1 Haywire Mite
2 Minor Misstep

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

25 lands!!??

[FTW]

11 of them are suicidal, and there's Mox Diamond. 25 lands is the only way to fit in that many Sagas, Gardens and Wastelands without compromising the colored mana or turn 1 blue for cantrips. I like that Ark4n's deck has 0 Dress Down because Dress Down gets awkward with Uro & Saga. It just uses Gardens as an alternate enabler.

I really like the Greater Good plan and will look for Bosh N Roll's video.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I played magic yesterday.

//Threats
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Fury
2 Trygon Prime
2 Minsc and Boo, Timeless Heroes
//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of WIll
1 Test of Talents
4 Lightning Bolt
//Land
4 Dress Down
1 Scroll of Fate
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
1 Volcanic Island
2 Steam Vents
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Forest

//Sideboard
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Veil of Summer
2 Force of Negation
2 Brotherhood's End
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Run Afoul

3-0 then I left because there was heavy snow and it took like an hour to get home.
2-1 v delver. G1 they mull to five and I can keep them off mana to beat down with fury. G2 I don't draw any action G3 I get them with the quick deliver
2-1 v Wur initiative. G1 I had scroll into tryhard so when they take the initiative I have unblockable crackback. A well timed fury ends the game. G2 their removal lines up well against my things. G3 he got mana screwed.
2-1 v 4 color. G1 t3 double dreadnought with force backup. G2 I got wasted off my second land and never saw a second. G3 they mulled to 5 and couldn't beat an early dreadnought. 0-0-1 But then the snow was already piling up so I stayed long enough to offer a split and jet.

[FTW]

Congrats on the 3-0-1.

The SB package seems odd. How did you board and how often were those cards useful? No red blasts?

What's Leyline of Sanctity for? Veil of Summer already protects against discard, Force of Negation already helps against combo, and you could add 1-2 Flusterstorm for more anti-combo that's also good in blue mirrors to protect your threats. Dreadnought is already one of the best anti-combo decks in the format, so you could probably use those slots on another matchup.

How was Test of Talents? I like the potential to strip combos or get rid of every Swords to Plowshares/Meltdown so Dreadnought gets there.

How was Fury? Did you get to cheat in Stifle+Fury for max value? Dress Down + Fury (seems worse)? Or always cast for 5 mana?

For the maindeck, I'd go:
-2 Trygon
+1 Uro
+1 Minsc
-3 Fury
+3 Mawloc
Fury is strong but with a low red count you can't Evoke it often, and 5 mana is a lot. It sounds like it won you a few games, but I wonder if Mawloc would have too. Mawloc also scales well in the late game with big mana.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Congrats on the 3-0-1.

Thank you!


The SB package seems odd. How did you board and how often were those cards useful? No red blasts?
I brought in the Run Afoul and Leyline vs Delver, taking out the Tryhards, Some fury and Dress Down.
Vs Initiative I did no boarding
Vs Control I brought in Veils and I don't remember what I took out.
No red blasts. IDK I usually prefer splashier swingy cards for my SB and I haven't gotten around to buying mere Good Cards like REB and BEB


What's Leyline of Sanctity for? Veil of Summer already protects against discard, Force of Negation already helps against combo, and you could add 1-2 Flusterstorm for more anti-combo that's also good in blue mirrors to protect your threats. Dreadnought is already one of the best anti-combo decks in the format, so you could probably use those slots on another matchup.

Lately I've been wanting to be more forceful in protecting my hand and Leyline does that. It also helps against burn. It's not necessarily about maximizing my percentage points but narrowing the avenues of how I can lose towards my playstyle. Veil also does nothing on the draw vs the t1 discard. Or worse.


How was Test of Talents? I like the potential to strip combos or get rid of every Swords to Plowshares/Meltdown so Dreadnought gets there.
As a one-of I saw it once, cast it once to take Force of Will out of the Delver deck where also knowing their hand was informative. So 100% win rate in games where it was drawn. (N=1)


How was Fury? Did you get to cheat in Stifle+Fury for max value? Dress Down + Fury (seems worse)? Or always cast for 5 mana?
I've been liking fury more and more, this 3 Fury configuration is up one from the last time I played. It fits into the game plan naturally and represents a t1 threat in race MUs.
As for casting it, I Beat delver one game by dress down and pitching second fury. When it killed initiative I paid the full five. It also did so in a way that Mawloc wouldn't by getting to split the damage to remove both blockers. As time goes on do not be surprised if you see Endurance make a return or Subtlety shows up.


I would be tempted to go:
-2 Trygon
+1 Uro
+1 Minsc
-3 Fury
+3 Mawloc
Fury sounds strong but with a low red count you can't Evoke it often, and 5 mana is a lot. It sounds like it won you a few games, but I wonder if Mawloc would have too.
There's 4 Bolts, 2 Minsc and 3 fury, so 8 other red cards. I think I'd want 5 more if this was modern, but with 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm? It so far hasn't been an issue.
Haw Mawloc been doing anything in other decks? On it's face it doesn't look impressive to me so you'll have to tell me if it's any good. Tryhards might not make future lists, but I kinda likes the guys. They're pretty beefy (attack as 5/5s, minimum) and I don't think I want Uro 4 because it's legendary. Minsc 3 is possible, and if I ran it it would be in place of Tryhard 2, and another pitch elemental would replace Tryhard 1.

[FTW]

I've been liking fury more and more, this 3 Fury configuration is up one from the last time I played. It fits into the game plan naturally and represents a t1 threat in race MUs.
As for casting it, I Beat delver one game by dress down and pitching second fury. When it killed initiative I paid the full five. It also did so in a way that Mawloc wouldn't by getting to split the damage to remove both blockers. As time goes on do not be surprised if you see Endurance make a return or Subtlety shows up.

Yeah, my next point was going to be that if cheated-Fury has been that good for you, then Subtlety might be even better. It can't take out 2 creatures like Fury, but both the blue Evoke or 2UU make it easier to cast.

Vs Delver I would board it out. 5 mana is too much vs Wasteland and Daze. The evoke tricks are cool, but Dress Down prevents the 4 damage so you're just spending 1U + 3 cards to make a 3/3 and cantrip. If they have Daze or Bolt or BlueBlast or RedBlast (kill Dress Down after you Evoke), you get punished hard. They have too many cards that can 2-for-1 you at 1 mana. It's a flashy play when it works but has high potential to backfire vs Delver. It seems great against nonblue decks like Initiative though.

Mawloc doesn't have the fun explosive plays, but it does scale well at different stages of the game.
RG - 1-for-1 an X/2, or make a 2/2 & kill a 1/1
1RG - 1-for-1 an X/3, or make a 3/3 & kill a 2/2
2RG - Make a 4/4 & kill a 3/3 or 3/4 (most creatures)
3RG - Make a 5/5 & kill 4/4 or smaller
5RG - Make a 7/7, draw a card, kill almost anything

Fury is better at exactly 5 mana. But Mawloc can come down sooner as a 2-for-1 creature or 1-for-1 removal, never leaving you down on cards even if opponent has an answer. Deserves testing.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There's a few issues with your analysis:
First, if your op has two or more creatures fury's x for y ratio can only go up
Second your table begins at two mana when fury's begins at zero
Finally Fury can tag a teferi which will otherwise shut off a lot of your deck.

Test it and tell me how it goes but I don't think I'm going to unless it starts putting up serious numbers somewhere

[dte]

Reading the last few posts, I was wondering if maybe I misunderstood how fury and dress down work?
I thought you don't deal damage but still have to sacrifice it if you used evoke?

Is it not the case, or is there another synergy I don't see?

[FTW]

There's a few issues with your analysis:
First, if your op has two or more creatures fury's x for y ratio can only go up
Second your table begins at two mana when fury's begins at zero
Finally Fury can tag a teferi which will otherwise shut off a lot of your deck.

Test it and tell me how it goes but I don't think I'm going to unless it starts putting up serious numbers somewhere

Fury deals 0 damage if you use Dress Down. Did you get away with dealing damage in paper?

It's 1U to make a 3/3 (at -1 card). If opponent has any interaction like Bolt or Swords or Daze, you're down on both cards and mana. Risky play. I've tested it with Subtlety and it's a high-risk play unless you're ambushing a small attacker and untapping into something like Standstill or EI (Fury can't do that).

Fury's table begins at less mana if you have exactly Stifle+red card. But then it's 3 cards so killing 2 things is just parity (+0 cards). Fury + red card can also kill 2 small things without making a body, also parity (+0 cards). That's a fair trade but not a blowout. If you had to pitch a Bolt (half your red cards), that Bolt could have also killed 1 creature or Teferi for 1 mana.

Mawloc is +1 card on the lower end of the table and doesn't need an exact A+B combo. It works as a topdeck. Since you didn't pitch a Bolt/Minsc to cast it, you get to kill more with that unspent red card, making up for the 2nd creature Fury would tag.

Most of the red cards you could pitch (Bolt, REB) could also tag those threats for 1 mana. If you don't pitch it, you kill 1 more thing. Fury's great if you kill 3-4 things or keep the body though.

Basically Fury has higher ceiling if you have the right combo in hand & opponent has the right targets & opponent doesn't have interaction to punish your potential card disadvantage. Or when you have 5 mana but less than 7. But Mawloc is reliable and card positive more often (don't have the right combo in hand, or opponent has interaction, or at different mana ranges).

Is Fury putting up serious numbers in RUG Dreadnought with <10 red cards? I've tested Fury in low-red decks and didn't love it. Have only played with Mawloc a bit, but scalable Flametongue Kavu effects are strong in most formats. Will test it more. Otherwise Endurance is the tested and proven card.

[Fox]

On Ark4n's builds with BG Mox Diamond + Saga, this stuff just auto-loses to FoV; it will only ever be a meme. If you're doing stuff like this you need countermagic to stop really bad things from happening to you. You can already see it: turn 1 Mox (discard real land) -> Saga, trigger on stack -> FoV, game over, no casting Loam for you....and like even if you had FoW to block the FoV, you'd still be down to 2 cards in hand.
---
Congrats on the 3-0-1 finish. That said, Mycosynth needs to be in Dreadnought. I'm going to assume Trygon Prime is Trygon Predator due to pronounced issues vs Chalice. Fury is ambitious without clearer color identity for pitch-cast and without reliable Fetchlands (Misty can't grab basic Mountain); asking for a lot of problems. Given these issues we need to ask why Fury over Endurance, and why does the SB not have the single best green card in the format: Force of Vigor.

On Test of Talents, this is FoN if maindeck. If SB, you choose Invasive Surgery every time b/c it potentially 1-shots Iteration, Ending, Loam, Reanimate/Exhume/Looting on cmc 1. Also b/c it costs 1 and not 2, you can do delirium shenanigans w/ suicide Nought. Most fair decks rely solely on Iteration/Ending, so hitting either one of those is basically game winning.

The Leylines are egregious. With this much countermagic and Stifle and free spells and the inability to steal your biggest dudes w/ Reanimate, you don't need black Leyline. The white Leyline doesn't make sense; you have Uro vs discard. White Leyline also has a big problem vs Silence which does not target. The combination of both Leylines are not needed vs Reanimator. This could just be Null Rod to attack Silence and Painter at the same time; could also be Powder Keg to attack GSZ/Arbor, artifact lands, Saga, LED/Empty, Ancient Tomb's Chrome Mox/Chalice. I guess Leyline is better against just Ruby storm? Seems narrow, and uncastable, and unpitchable. FoV also better in these slots. I'd even take Cindervines over white Leyline.

No matter what you do (eg Mawloc), you never escape the classic deckbuilding error of 2c deck with all of its survival cards (Bolt, Fury/Mawloc) on tertiary color. This leads to loss to Wasteland and getting stuck in the Daze or Loam or Port abyss, while also playing savagely into losses to Chalice. Just glaring flaws you can't escape (and that is what the majority of tier 1-1.5 uses).
---
Here's a VoD https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1749522349 you can watch. As you watch just imagine your 3c getting reamed by about every opposing strategy in the series. Really think about how trying to make fatties into removal-based decks and getting Chalice'd over and over and getting rolled by Wasteland are build-order losses.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Reading the last few posts, I was wondering if maybe I misunderstood how fury and dress down work?
I thought you don't deal damage but still have to sacrifice it if you used evoke?

Is it not the case, or is there another synergy I don't see?

The trigger to sacrifice the fury off evoke doesn't exist until the creature enters play, which means that it will no longer have this ability when it does and thus won't be sacrificed. I'm phone posting so instead of a rules citation you'll just have to get a "trust me"

[Fox]

The trigger to sacrifice the fury off evoke doesn't exist until the creature enters play, which means that it will no longer have this ability when it does and thus won't be sacrificed. I'm phone posting so instead of a rules citation you'll just have to get a "trust me"

What FTW is saying is that to cheat evoke, you have to lose the deal 4 trigger.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Fury deals 0 damage if you use Dress Down. Did you get away with dealing damage in paper?

It's 1U to make a 3/3 (at -1 card). If opponent has any interaction like Bolt or Swords or Daze, you're down on both cards and mana. Risky play. I've tested it with Subtlety and it's a high-risk play unless you're ambushing a small attacker and untapping into something like Standstill or EI (Fury can't do that).

Fury's table begins at less mana if you have exactly Stifle+red card. But then it's 3 cards so killing 2 things is just parity (+0 cards). Fury + red card can also kill 2 small things without making a body, also parity (+0 cards). That's a fair trade but not a blowout. If you had to pitch a Bolt (half your red cards), that Bolt could have also killed 1 creature or Teferi for 1 mana.

There seems to be some confusion here, here's the table:
0 mana: Fury is a Pyrokinesis. Floor: Card stuck in hand. Ceiling: a 4-for-2 when you kill four creatures by pitch-casting
1 Mana: Fury is a Pyrokinesis that combos with stifle: Floor, Card stuck in hand. Ceiling: 5-for-3 When you get to kill 4 creatures, plus keep a 3/3 double strike in play when you stifled the evoke side of the trigger.
2-4 Mana: Fury Is an MDFC, one side is Pyrokinesis, the other is a 3/3. Floor: Still no second red card. Ceiling: Exactly what you needed as either a Pyrokinesis or (Pressure+Cantrip)
5 Mana: Hard cast on it's face

Where as Mawloc:
0 mana: Stuck in hand
1 Mana: stuck in hand
2 Mana: Floor: 2/2 Ceiling: 2 for 1 with a delver or below
3 Mana: Floor: 3/3 Ceiling: 2 for 1 with Active DRC and below
4-6 Mana: Floor X/X Ceiling: 2 for 1 with X Toughness and Below
7 Mana: Floor Typhoon X=7. Ceiling 3 for 1.

[FTW]

There seems to be some confusion here, here's the table:
0 mana: Fury is a Pyrokinesis. Floor: Card stuck in hand. Ceiling: a 4-for-2 when you kill four creatures by pitch-casting
1 Mana: Fury is a Pyrokinesis that combos with stifle: Floor, Card stuck in hand. Ceiling: 5-for-3 When you get to kill 4 creatures, plus keep a 3/3 double strike in play when you stifled the evoke side of the trigger.
2-4 Mana: Fury Is an MDFC, one side is Pyrokinesis, the other is a 3/3. Floor: Still no second red card. Ceiling: Exactly what you needed as either a Pyrokinesis or (Pressure+Cantrip)
5 Mana: Hard cast on it's face

Thanks for clearing that up. Based on discussion above, couldn't tell if there was confusion over Fury+Dress Down rules.

Agree on ceiling, though seeing 3-4 X/1s is very rare (in matches where you do, you can board in End the Festivities @ 1 mana like Delver does). The most common "success" case is killing 2 creatures, 2-for-2 or 3-for-3. Not bad. But when you're pitching a Bolt/REB, maybe you could get as good a trade if Fury was another Bolt/REB/Unholy Heat instead by just casting 2x removal, without needing the right combination of cards to come together.

Floor is lower than you said.

0 mana: Floor is you pitch Bolt to ping 2 things. Opponent counters with Daze. Opponent keeps 2 creatures, you lose 2 cards to Daze (including a Bolt that could have killed 1 thing).

2-4 mana: Floor is you attempt the 2nd MDFC face with Dress Down. Pay 1U & 3 cards: 3/3 & draw 1. Opponent responds with Bolt, StP, Daze, BEB, REB (destroy Dress Down), Decay (destroy Dress Down), Boseiju (same). You get 2-for-1d & lose a Bolt/Minsc that would have been useful interaction. If Fury was some other creature (Mawloc, Endurance, DRC), maybe that creature still dies - but you would keep that Bolt/Minsc!

In the Fury table, you're usually spending multiple cards and need the right combination of cards in hand. In the table for Mawloc, you spend no cards other than Mawloc. You keep that Bolt/Stifle/Dress Down etc to do other things. If opponent answers it, you never get 2-for-1d.

I completely agree that Fury's ceiling is higher. But the floor isn't a dead card in hand. It's thinking you have a shot to Fury, then getting got by opponent's interaction and falling behind on cards. I haven't seen Fury successfully played in any Xerox deck with <10 red cards.

[FTW]

On Test of Talents, this is FoN if maindeck. If SB, you choose Invasive Surgery every time b/c it potentially 1-shots Iteration, Ending, Loam, Reanimate/Exhume/Looting on cmc 1. Also b/c it costs 1 and not 2, you can do delirium shenanigans w/ suicide Nought. Most fair decks rely solely on Iteration/Ending, so hitting either one of those is basically game winning.

Test of Talents can hit instants too. In particular, you can exile every Swords to Plowshares from UWr's deck with 1 card, instead of needing a convoluted grindy game plan to do so. Is that not better than Surgery? Of course you can also cripple other decks by stripping those same sorceries.

Edit: It does cost 2 instead of 1, but it isn't conditional on Delirium.


No matter what you do (eg Mawloc), you never escape the classic deckbuilding error of 2c deck with all of its survival cards (Bolt, Fury/Mawloc) on tertiary color. This leads to loss to Wasteland and getting stuck in the Daze or Loam or Port abyss, while also playing savagely into losses to Chalice. Just glaring flaws you can't escape (and that is what the majority of tier 1-1.5 uses).

In that sense, Fury is useful for converting a dead red card in hand into removal/threat without needing red mana.

I've been looking at it as wasting a live Bolt to try to kill 2 creatures with Fury, instead of just having 2x Bolt (lower variance). But it does help when you can't actually cast that red card in hand due to deck's own mana issues.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

When evaluating a card's floor, we don't include lines we can play around. Otherwise the floor on everything would be "you instantly lose the game when your op responds with commandeer." Besides casting it isn't compulsory. If you think it's a situation where you get blown out, you're not obligated to play into it.
For example the floor on Dreadnought isn't "they claimed the first born and then fling after combat" and the floor on Dark Depths isn't "you lose to Archmage's Charm"

[FTW]

If your ceiling includes fringe cases (4 X/1s is rare unless Elves), the floor should include very commonly played counterplay from Tier 1 decks.

Claim the Firstborn & Archmage Charm are ridiculous, yes. Daze, Bolt, Stp, Force, etc are very common Legacy cards.

The (reasonable) floor of Stifle+Dreadnought is getting 2-for-1d by StP/etc. That's not a fringe corner case for trolling. It's a real concern, and why Dreadnought decks need some alternate plan (card draw, other threats, Mycosynth) to not get blown out.

With Fury, the floor is also getting blown out into card disadvantage. Sure you're not forced to play it. But then when do you play it? Never? You don't know what's in opponent's hand. It's not always possible to optimally play around. How do you play around the 10+ common cheap answers that 2-for-1 Dress Down + Fury? Never do it, just in case? If so, then delete that mode from the card/table. Otherwise, it absolutely is the floor of the card.

At the end of the day, you're spending 2-3 cards to Fury at 0-4 mana. That's a big difference from spending 1 card on another creature like Mawloc. For fair comparison, the Mawloc ceiling should include +1 Bolt in hand, and the Fury floor should include being dead when you miss the red card (while Mawloc's floor is still a body). You can freely jam Mawloc into Daze (1-for-1), but you can't jam Fury into Daze (2-for-1), so Fury has no 0-mana mode vs blue dual in play.

I'm not saying Fury is terrible. The ceiling is great. But there are a lot of cases where it's bad, mediocre, or you can get punished. Opponent is not a goldfish and their hand is hidden. It's a high risk high variance card.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah but the counter play vs daze is add one to the table on the mana side. And to make the cards gained =2 for force of will.
How about reanimatir? Is the floor on any creature that your op reanimates dead on it?

[FTW]

Yeah but the counter play vs daze is add one to the table on the mana side. And to make the cards gained =2 for force of will.
How about reanimatir? Is the floor on any creature that your op reanimates dead on it?

Daze on Fury is easier to play around, yeah. But Fury also gets 2-for-1ed by other counters like Blue Blast, hardcast Force, Stifle, etc.

Opponent can pitch FoW too, trading 2-for-2 with your 2 red cards to save their creatures. If those 2 red cards were 2xBolt instead, you could still kill 2 things but it's bad for opponent to Force. So Fury vs 2 creatures risks more blowouts than just having 2 separate red kill spells.

What about the 2-for-1 on Dress Down + Fury? That's not just Daze. That gets got by half the interaction in the format. Do you just never play it?

[snugar_i]

I'm going to assume Trygon Prime is Trygon Predator due to pronounced issues vs Chalice.
No, Trygon Prime is (unsurprisingly) Trygon Prime.

[dte]

The trigger to sacrifice the fury off evoke doesn't exist until the creature enters play, which means that it will no longer have this ability when it does and thus won't be sacrificed. I'm phone posting so instead of a rules citation you'll just have to get a "trust me"

Thanks for the explanation!
"Trust you" works for me on the citation details.

[FTW]

Bosh N Roll posted the Greater Good Dreadnought 5-0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyzj3kcDQMs

Round 1 vs Lands
Round 2 vs GWRB Maverick
Round 3 vs Red Stompy
Round 4 vs UW Stoneblade
Round 5 vs UR Delver


//Lands: 19
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
4 Urza's Saga

//Creatures: 10
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Endurance

//Spells: 22
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Stifle
1 Minor Misstep
2 Expressive Iteration
2 Abrade
1 Misdirection

//Enchantments: 7
4 Dress Down
3 Greater Good

//Artifacts: 2
1 Chrome Mox
1 Soul-Guide Lantern

//Sideboard: 15
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Veil of Summer
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Vigor
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Endurance
1 Pithing Needle
2 Torpor Orb
2 Run Afoul


I like the strategy. Greater Good was very useful in grindy games to play around removal on Dreadnought or just draw an obscene amount of interaction. In one game he chained draws into double Bolt for exactsies on turn before death, and in another he drew his deck twice (Endurance) and kept presenting threats/answers until optimal-playing control opponent ran out of cards.

The Chrome Mox seems suspect and should probably be a basic Forest, with all the GG costs in the deck. Maybe also -1 Saga +1 Tarn.Back to Basics, Wasteland, and Blood Moon all punished the mana hard in the league. The manabase proved to be the biggest weakness. The deck stood up well to other lines of attack.

Misdirection should probably be another Minor Misstep, or maybe the SB Force of Negation. It never did a relevant thing in any games, and it lost a game that FoN would have won.

EI was less good here than in other decks, but it's still card draw and helps curve into Uro or Greater Good, the engines that really dominate the game.

Torpor Orb was never boarded in, due to the anti-synergy with Endurance and Uro. Maybe that should be shaved to 0-1 slots for Stifle? Stifle is good against combo and Initiative. In the matchups where Stifle is bad, you don't really want Torpor either (or you want Endurance + Uro more).

[dte]

The Chrome Mox seems suspect and should probably be a basic Forest, with all the GG costs in the deck. Maybe also -1 Saga +1 Tarn.Back to Basics, Wasteland, and Blood Moon all punished the mana hard in the league. The manabase proved to be the biggest weakness. The deck stood up well to other lines of attack.

Against each of these cards (BtoB, waste, blood moon), isn't chrome Mox better than forest?

[Fox]

Against each of these cards (BtoB, waste, blood moon), isn't chrome Mox better than forest?

B2B and Moon were deleted from the format by FoV and Boseju. You should be much more scared of FoV than B2B or Moon if you ever put a Saga on the table at the same time as a Mox.

[Clark Kant]

The bosh and roll video is fantastic and really shows that in the hands of a capable pilot, this deck is every bit as good as Delver/Initiative.

However, Im surprised the list didnt play any Mycosynth Gardens or Haywire Mite. Every Urza’s Saga deck that makes green mana should be playing a Haywire Mite.

I would probably replace an abrade with a hayfire as they play a similar role

I do agree that the questionable slots in that list are… Misdirection, the 3rd Greater Good and the Urza’s Saga target Chrome Mox.

I would replace them with cards that play a similar role… Mental Misstep, The Mycosynth Gardens and given how often Saga found something relevent, a different Saga target like Shadowspear or Pithing Needle or Mishra’s Bauble or Expedition Map or Retrofitter Foundry or Currency Converter or Pyrite Spellbomb or Mishra’s Research Desk might be nice.

[FTW]

Against each of these cards (BtoB, waste, blood moon), isn't chrome Mox better than forest?

Chrome Mox taps for only 1 color (usually) and is card disadvantage. That means you get punished harder when the B2B deck kills your mana source with Prismatic Ending (1-mana Stone Rain + discard 1), or the green Loam+Waste deck gets your mana with Force of Vigor, or Delver gets to kill a bonus "land" with their Meltdown X=1 on Dreadnought.

Whereas they can't interact with your basic.

So yes Mox does dodge nonbasic hate on the surface. But 2-for-1 Mox rewards them for spending another card attacking your mana, it's not a reliable safety net. Fetch into both basics is more reliable. You can skip basic Mountain because red is a tertiary color, Blood Moon fixes red for you, and the other 2 don't stop you from tapping Volcanic once. But with all the GG costs, it's harder to rely on just Tropical Island without already having basic Forest out.

[Captain Hammer]

Can Misdirection redirect a Solitude? If so, Misdirection actually looks pretty good in Bosh’s list. Redirecting a removal spell from Delver or White Initiative is a blow out and Misdirection is just as good as FoW at winning counter wars.


I saw the post that Misdirection should be FoN in Bosh’s 5-0 list. But the fact the FoN cant protect your guys from removal on your turn (which usually means all instant speed removal) is a pretty significant con. FoN cant counter Murktide or Initiative creatures like FoW can and it cant redirect removal to them the way that MisD can.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Can Misdirection redirect a Solitude? If so, Misdirection actually looks pretty good in Bosh’s list. Redirecting a removal spell from Delver or White Initiative is a blow out and Misdirection is just as good as FoW at winning counter wars.


I saw the post that Misdirection should be FoN in Bosh’s 5-0 list. But the fact the FoN cant protect your guys from removal on your turn (which usually means all instant speed removal) is a pretty significant con. FoN cant counter Murktide or Initiative creatures like FoW can and it cant redirect removal to them the way that MisD can.

You cannot. Misdirection cannot change the target of triggered abilities.

[FTW]

Can Misdirection redirect a Solitude? If so, Misdirection actually looks pretty good in Bosh’s list. Redirecting a removal spell from Delver or White Initiative is a blow out and Misdirection is just as good as FoW at winning counter wars.

You can only Misdirect spells, not abilities.

Misdirection needs a legal target. If opponent has no creatures, you can still Force a Swords. If opponent has no creatures, you can't Misdirect the Swords.

You can't Misdirect spells with multiple targets (Force of Vigor).

Misdirection fails to hit spells with removal abilities (Teferi, Jace) or non-targetting spells (Meltdown, Brotherhoods End).

That all makes Misdirection unreliable protection. Sure you could get bonus value killing their creature, but most of those creatures are losing to the 12/12 you protected either way, so is that just win-more?

FoN may be too unreliable on your turn, so maybe the card needs to be Flusterstorm or Minor Misstep or another 1-for-1 counter.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

That's not exactly true: you can misdirection spells even if there's no legal spell to change the target to, so be careful or you will try to misdirection a swords with no legal alternative.
The upside on misdirection is that you can pitch cast it on both turns and that it can be a whole lot more swingy when black spells are involved, like hymns and thoughtseizes. I think it's fine as a one-of

[Rationalist]

Okay, so, without yet knowing what the metagame %s will look like after the motion from the current banning settles down, if we take the Boshnroll donation list that FTW posted above as the stock list, now that EI is no longer on the menu, as a first-order reaction, does it still make sense to be in red? How are people feeling about RUG Dreadnought naively in the immediate aftermath of the banning (compared to other Dreadnought color combinations, not as an entire archetype vs. the meta)?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I was heavy in red and wasn't on EI to begin with so unless this update is good for chalice (since I'd replace red for colorless cards) I am still high on red cards.

[FTW]

Okay, so, without yet knowing what the metagame %s will look like after the motion from the current banning settles down, if we take the Boshnroll donation list that FTW posted above as the stock list, now that EI is no longer on the menu, as a first-order reaction, does it still make sense to be in red? How are people feeling about RUG Dreadnought naively in the immediate aftermath of the banning (compared to other Dreadnought color combinations, not as an entire archetype vs. the meta)?

EI was not important to the build. I was already testing a version with 0 EI.

Dreadnought needs some source of card draw. Other popular builds (Grixis with Kroxa) relied on EI as their only card draw, but this build has Uro and Greater Good.

Red is for removal: Lightning Bolt, Pyroblast, Abrade. UG on its own lacks removal, so a 3rd color is needed. If the metagame shifts, perhaps white (Swords & Prismatic Ending) would be better. For now, Pyroblast is strong. Bolt also doubles as a win condition. If opponent has turned off combat somehow, you can use Greater Good to draw your deck repeatedly and Bolt them to death (recycling with Endurance).

The version without EI I was testing was this. I still find the mana a bit unstable, but it's better with full Xerox and basic Forest.

//Lands: 20
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Urza's Saga

//Creatures: 11
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Endurance

//Spells: 20
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Stifle
1 Minor Misstep
2 Abrade

//Enchantments: 7
4 Dress Down
3 Greater Good

//Artifacts: 2
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Currency Converter

//Sideboard: 15
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Veil of Summer
1 Stifle
1 Test of Talents
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Vigor
1 Brotherhood's End
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Run Afoul


I tested a 2nd Minor Misstep but didn't like it. I found it dead too often, even testing against UR Delver (aka 1cc.dek)! This deck wants to tap out too much to reliably hold up Misstep.

[Rationalist]

Excellent. I wanted to play around with this a bit. I'll start with your build, than.

EDIT: Test of Talents? You monster.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

EDIT: Test of Talents? You monster.

100% of the time, it wins every time (Sample size n=1 game(s))

[BKclassic]

Sylvan Library seems like a must-play with 4 Uro to me. My impression from the Bosh N Roll video was that Minsc & Boo would have been better in most situations than Greater Good. I also wanted to run 4 Bolts & Boseiju rather than 3 Bolts & 2 Abrade. Anyway, I do want tp play RUG and this seems like it may be the best RUG deck at the moment. I am going to try and jam some leagues with this deck and if I have anything intelligent to say I will post here.

[FTW]

Sylvan Library seems like a must-play with 4 Uro to me. My impression from the Bosh N Roll video was that Minsc & Boo would have been better in most situations than Greater Good. I also wanted to run 4 Bolts & Boseiju rather than 3 Bolts & 2 Abrade. Anyway, I do want tp play RUG and this seems like it may be the best RUG deck at the moment. I am going to try and jam some leagues with this deck and if I have anything intelligent to say I will post here.

Good luck! Let us know how it went.

Sylvan Library was in older builds. People here cut it when the rest of the format also cut it from Uro decks (Prismatic Ending, making Force of Vigor on Dreadnought even more punishing, etc.). Maybe it's still the best green card draw.

Yeah, maybe M&B is just the better card at 4 mana. Greater Good has cool synergies but is partly meme value. If you cut Greater Good for M&B, the deck wants some lower cmc card draw. Sylvan Library fills that role well.

Abrade is to answer Chalice @ 1, which is otherwise very punishing. It's also your out to stuff like Karn -> Ensnaring Bridge. If you cut Abrades, then the SB probably needs more artifact kill. Maybe another Force of Vigor. Postboard you want 4 things to kill Chalice.

[Fox]

4-1 into 5-0. Leagues are ofc meaningless being so full of combo food, but managed to pair into some real decks. Managed to roll EchoCannon subtype Riddlesmith, monoU PainterCast, SnS, Delver, Minsc/Uro midrange (BANNED), Reanimonster.

Pseudo-Delver was encountered twice, subtypes Shadow and Infect. Nonsense included UB Peer-based storm (think ANT without LED/IT, add counterspells), UB mill. VoDs up on twitch, pay attention to the mana.

[Clark Kant]

I wanted to port BoshNRolls list to remove red and use only a single dual land, what do you think of this version?

UG/Simic Dressnought

//Lands: 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Tropical Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Snow-Covered Island
4 Urza's Saga
3 Mycosynth Gardens

//Creatures: 13
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Endurance
1 Tarmogoyf

//Spells: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
2 Minor Misstep
1 Slip Out the Back
1 Misdirection

//Enchantments: 7
4 Dress Down
2 Greater Good
1 Sylvan Library

//Artifacts: 2
1 Haywire Mite
1 Soul-Guide Lantern

//Sideboard: 15
1 Force of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Endurance
1 Pithing Needle
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Veil of Summer
2 Torpor Orb
2 Force of Vigor
3 Run Afoul


Do you think replacing the 3rd Greater Good with a Sylvan Library was a mistake? It was my attempt to lower the curve.

I also cut the Chrome Mox for the 20th land, in order to accommodate The Mycosynth Gardens into the list. Should the 2nd Forest or 3rd Gardens instead be a 3rd Island?

Do you think this list can still 5-0 even without the red?

[FTW]

I think it'll be harder to 5-0 without removal. But try it out and see how it does. 3x Run Afoul in the board helps. SB may want 2x Borrower too. Helps with big creatures as well as prison.

That manabase has too much colorless and not enough colored. Only 11 turn 1 blue? That'll have curve and color problems for a deck that wants turn 1 Ponder, Stifle or Misstep.
+1 Island
+2 Otawara

That puts you at 14 blue. 23 lands, but 7 are self-sacrificing colorless lands, so really only 16 stable colored sources and low risk of flooding.

To make room for lands, the easiest cuts are Goyf, Misdirection and Slip (Mycosynth is better). Bosh N Roll's latest Dreadnought video shows how bad Goyf is.

[Clark Kant]

https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/legacy-league-2023-03-11#deck_AvramGarrisson

Avram Garrison just 5-0ed with this list…

Artifact (5)
1 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Scroll of Fate
2 Currency Converter
Creature (9)
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
Enchantment (5)
2 Shark Typhoon
3 Dress Down
Instant (18)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
1 Spikefield Hazard
2 Force of Negation
Land (23)
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Wasteland
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Urza's Saga
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Otawara, Soaring City
3 The Mycosynth Gardens
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Price of Progress
1 Powder Keg
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Pyroblast
1 Noxious Revival
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Smash to Dust
1 Brotherhood's End

After seeing Scroll of Fate, Grim Lavamancer and Shark Typhoon, I excitedly scanned the list hoping to see some
number of Standstill (my second favorite mtg card behind Pox).


A very different take than the Greater Good list that BoshNRoll 5-0ed with. I dont even know how to go about finding the optimal version of this list considering how many different ways dressnought can be built.

[FTW]

That looks like a Fox build. For a whole bunch of design reasons from Lavamancer, Phyrexian Furnace, Spikefield Hazard, the 2nd Otawara, Shark Typhoon, SB Ashiok, SB Staticaster, SB Powder Keg, the (correct) basic-heavy manabase, only 2 Saga.

@Fox, is that your list? Did you donate it or guide the pilot?
Have you cut Standstill due to the unfavorable meta (bad vs Initiative & Saga & spell lands) and replaced it with Mycosynth?

[Fox]

That looks like a Fox build. For a whole bunch of design reasons from Lavamancer, Phyrexian Furnace, Spikefield Hazard, the 2nd Otawara, Shark Typhoon, SB Ashiok, SB Staticaster, SB Powder Keg, the (correct) basic-heavy manabase, only 2 Saga.

@Fox, is that your list? Did you donate it or guide the pilot?
Have you cut Standstill due to the unfavorable meta (bad vs Initiative & Saga & spell lands) and replaced it with Mycosynth?

This is my list, and I am the pilot. As stated above, this is a 4-1 into 5-0 and the VoDs are on my twitch. Standstill will come back in once people realize Mycosynth Gardens is a Dreadnought and LED-only card, and stop spamming Saga so much. The hype is dying down online and people are moving into their Tomb-spam phase; this will continue until they realize SnS will out-Tomb them. In the next week or two I'll add Standstill back into the deck with 2x Alpine Moon in the board. Until then it's like deciding to play Elves/Goblins right after the release of Plague Engi.

The CA is mostly covered by Currency Converter and Furnace, and the ability to copy them with Mycosynth. Standstill is unlikely to return as a 4x. The most likely slots to be cut are Brainstorm #4, DRC #4, Stifle #3, or Currency #2. When people Tomb, they Chalice - which is why we cut from the 1-drops.

At least for the moment, Delver decks are over-spamming Misstep; a practice that will speed up re-addition of Standstill...but I doubt they're going to be able to sustain this practice given how prevalent Tomb is.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I dont even know how to go about finding the optimal version of this list considering how many different ways dressnought can be built.

It's a brand new meta, we're going to see a lot of new sub optimal stuff show up and that's the process. Take what you like, kick out what you don't.

[FTW]

This is my list, and I am the pilot. As stated above, this is a 4-1 into 5-0 and the VoDs are on my twitch. Standstill will come back in once people realize Mycosynth Gardens is a Dreadnought and LED-only card, and stop spamming Saga so much. The hype is dying down online and people are moving into their Tomb-spam phase; this will continue until they realize SnS will out-Tomb them. In the next week or two I'll add Standstill back into the deck with 2x Alpine Moon in the board. Until then it's like deciding to play Elves/Goblins right after the release of Plague Engi.

The CA is mostly covered by Currency Converter and Furnace, and the ability to copy them with Mycosynth. Standstill is unlikely to return as a 4x. The most likely slots to be cut are Brainstorm #4, DRC #4, Stifle #3, or Currency #2. When people Tomb, they Chalice - which is why we cut from the 1-drops.

At least for the moment, Delver decks are over-spamming Misstep; a practice that will speed up re-addition of Standstill...but I doubt they're going to be able to sustain this practice given how prevalent Tomb is.

Nice result. 9-1! Sounds like it fits the current meta well.

When Standstill goes back in, is DRC really the cut? As long as Initiative and Saga are popular (it will decline but still see play), a turn 1 creature really helps Standstill. Even if 1 cmc is bad vs Chalice and Misstep. Keeping either DRC or Currency seems big to not have Standstill backfire or be dead.

[Fox]

Nice result. 9-1! Sounds like it fits the current meta well.

When Standstill goes back in, is DRC really the cut? As long as Initiative and Saga are popular (it will decline but still see play), a turn 1 creature really helps Standstill. Even if 1 cmc is bad vs Chalice and Misstep. Keeping either DRC or Currency seems big to not have Standstill backfire or be dead.

Currently testing Standstill in Brainstorm 4's and Currency 2's slots, since Mycosynth (and thus excessive Saga use) is dropping off. Something to keep in mind when adding Standstill is the blue count; kinda need to increase it if possible. As far as flooding goes, I'm not too worried about it with ~1% odds of 2x in opening hand vs odds on 6x Force effects. I do like having Standstill back in the deck with a Noxious as backup mode Vamp Tutor in the side. Shuffler today was closer to a realistic representation of how statistics work (second league). VoD is up with a 3-2 (no Standstill) and another 4-1 (with Standstill).

In leagues, expect to get Chalice'd, Moon'd, and removal spammed between lucky combo pairings. Very bad time to be playing with untrustworthy mana and no ability to get on board early. Also on the uptick are DnT and removal-based Depths (GW). Very poor choice to run 3c, even in combo-flooded leagues.

[FTW]

ThrabenU plays GreaterGood Nought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSsWSdQu1zc


//Lands: 22
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Twilight Mire
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Wasteland
1 The Mycosynth Gardens

//Creatures: 11
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Hunted Horror
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Endurance

//Spells: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Minor Misstep
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out

//Enchantments: 7
4 Dress Down
3 Greater Good

//Artifacts: 2
2 Torpor Orb

//Sideboard: 15
2 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Veil of Summer
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Force of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Force of Vigor
2 Null Rod


Deck went 3-2

There are some very questionable design choices. Staying in BUG I would cut:
-Twilight Mire
-Torpor Orb + Hunted Horror (maybe keep 1 Orb max)
-Crop Rotation Package including Wasteland

Add:
+2 Endurance
+2 Gardens
+1 Decay
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 FoV SB
+1 Soul-Guide Lantern SB
+1 Carpet SB
+1 Trophy SB

Another option would be to cut black and play white for Swords and PEnding.

[Clark Kant]

Babua, very cool list. Though it seems greater good is the superior green card draw enchantment to sylvan library.

Thraben U’s list would be far better without hunted horror. Would rather play a Hymn or the 3rd Thoughtseize or an Oppo Agent or Baleful Strix or Mental Misstep or Endurance or Stifle or Murktide instead. But its great that he 4-1ed with a list playing Hunted Horror in 2023 legacy.


Not sure if 3 Greater Good is excessive, 2 might suffice. Torpor Orb might make more sense in the Sideboard with Stifle filling in instead. Crop Rotation and the 2nd Flusterstorm seems like sideboard slots that could be cut for Torpor Orb.


Also, trying to figure out why the deck would sideboard Null Rod instead of Ouphe.

[FTW]

Only 3-2 not 4-1, right?

Rounds 1 and 2 are very interesting.

UWr control is usually a terrible matchup for Stiflenought. But 0 Stifles + Greater Good tech and Uro recursion provided the card draw needed to go over the top and win the grind. If the deck didn't have so many duds (Hunted Horror & Twilight Mire especially) and he didn't make some questionable plays, round 1 is theoretically winnable. Winning vs UWr is one of the bigger arguments in favor for playing Greater Good. They can't Prismatic Ending or Blast a 4 CMC green enchantment, so if they don't Force it they're stuck letting you draw 12.

It's probably better to maindeck only 2 Greater Good. Put 3rd in SB to bring in for grindy matchups.

[FTW]

Monocolorless Depthsnought splashing UB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UaABGeIjPU

Donated Deck:

//Lands: 26
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Urza's Saga
3 The Mycosynth Gardens
2 Mana Confluence
1 Otawara, Soaring City

//Artifacts: 19
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Shadowspear
1 Expedition Map
1 Torpor Orb
2 Wishclaw Talisman

//Creatures: 8
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Vampire Hexmage
1 Lazav, the Multifarious

//Spells: 7
2 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Profane Tutor
3 Not of This World

//Sideboard: 15
3 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Deafening Silence
2 Hydroblast
2 Fatal Push
1 Faerie Macabre


This looks like a hot mess. Random 1-ofs. Minimal card selection. Low threat density. Less than maximum Dreadnoughts. Greedy multicolor splashes on flimsy mana. Nonbos.

I would probably cut that to monoblack and make it more focused.

Phil ended up doing that:

//Lands: 27
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Urza's Saga
4 The Mycosynth Gardens
4 Bayou
3 Cavern of Souls

//Artifacts: 17
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Shadowspear
1 Expedition Map
4 Torpor Orb

//Creatures: 8
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Spells: 8
4 Thoughtseize
4 Not of This World

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Sudden Edict
2 Plague Engineer
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Emrkaul, the Aeons Torn


It looks a lot more focused but still high variance with redundant draws. That came up in matches.

4 Expedition Map and maybe Karn tGC would help focus the deck, like 3.5 card Monte.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What were the records?

[FTW]

What were the records?

Edit: Deck went 1-4
Deck was too high variance to do anything. Needs more card selection.

Should be at 4x Expedition Map to assemble Depths. Maybe 4x Karn, the Great Creator or Serum Powder too. Otherwise you're just rolling the dice on random variance getting you there. He had hands with multiple Hexmage + Stage with 0 Depths, for example. Or 3 Torpor Orb + Depths with 0 Dreadnought and 0 Depths enablers. Or Mycosynth Gardens + Dark Depths + bad artifact to copy (Petal or Legendary), failing at both combos and giving multiple dead cards. The deck has a too high % of "lose to yourself" draws.

Mox Opal was too inconsistent to make mana, without more cheap artifacts.

Scroll of Fate seems better than Torpor Orb maindeck, because it actually has text when you don't have Dreadnought. You can turn extra mana into threats.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

They didn't run it back with the changes?

[FTW]

They didn't run it back with the changes?

They only ran with changes. Original list is a hot pile. Don't know who brewed it but Phil didn't want to play with original. Posted both to show the idea.

My variance comments are about the 2nd deck.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

They only ran with changes. Original list is a hot pile. Don't know who brewed it but Phil didn't want to play with original. Posted both to show the idea.

My variance comments are about the 2nd deck.

Ah

[FTW]

Maybe this would be an improvement.

Nought Of This World

//Lands: 28
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Urza's Saga
4 The Mycosynth Gardens
4 Bayou
2 Nurturing Peatland
2 Boseiju, Who Endures

//Artifacts: 16
4 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Expedition Map
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Torpor Orb
1 Scroll of Fate

//Creatures: 8
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Vampire Hexmage

//Spells: 8
4 Thoughtseize
4 Crop Rotation

//Sideboard: 15
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Not of This World


This might still be bad, but now there are 8x maindeck tutors (+4 Saga to help find Map) for Stage-Depths instead of 1. The same tutors can set up Saga-Gardens for uncounterable Dreadnought.

Postboard those same tutors find Bojuka Bog (GY hate), Wasteland (kill enemy Karakas/Maze), or Karakas (vs other fatty combos).

The other SB choices are because I think fair 1-for-1 answers (discard, Edict) are not what the deck needs. You can't trade 1-for-1 and expect to get anywhere when 60% of the deck is land/mana. Playing that game, you will always fall short on interaction and lose. SB slots are better used aiming to shut off entire strategies.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you're already on hexmage, maybe a battle?

[FTW]

If you're already on hexmage, maybe a battle?

Yeah. Invasion of Ikoria seems good because it can tutor Hexmage into play to either make a 20/20 or an 8/8. The 8/8 even makes Marit Lage have the Thorn Elemental "unblockable" clause.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I played magic Friday.

//Threats
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Fury
2 scroll of fate
1 subtlety
1 sicarian infiltrator
2 Minsc and Boo, Timeless Heroes
//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of WIll
4 Lightning Bolt
//Land
4 Dress Down
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
2 Breeding Pool
1 Volcanic Island
2 Steam Vents
2 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Forest

//Sideboard
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Veil of Summer
1 Force of Negation
1 test of talents
2 Brotherhood's End
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Run Afoul

3-1, lost round one and then took the next three
1-2 ur delver. Lost game one and three, both on the draw with a dreadnought on the table. I always forget they have a bunch of bolts and you need to be careful when fetch shocking. It is a mu where your life total matters.
2-0 bye. Ty for your service, odd number of players.
2-0 UW stone blade, G1 I stuck a scroll and just spammed 2/2s. G2 minsc. The goal was just to keep the stone forges from cheating a kaldra into play and without them they're just faffing about with no pressure. So just wait it out and things will be fine.
2-0 Doomsday G1 I drew well: wasteland for their one land, Stifle for their next one, a second stifle for their force on the first, and then a force of my own on the second force. Then a dreadnought. G2 Subtlety defeated the cavern/Sheoldred they tried as a backup plan.

What did we learn: sometimes you just don't need to represent a Stifle, because I can't afford the full duals. Luv the deck, can't wait to put it down for drifter in a week or whenever.

[FTW]

Nice results. Scroll of Fate and M&B are both strong against UW. The Stifle/Dress Down side is strong against Doomsday.

How was the 1 Sicarian Infiltrator?

Too bad against UR. That's where the shocklands bite you. It's a good thing you're not playing Daze, or they'd hurt even more. Could you play just 1 of each shock and then replace the other two with some other type of land (-1 Steam Vents, -1 Breeding Pool, +2 other lands)? With 2 Steam Vents 2 Breeding Pool you're really hurting yourself in any aggro or Lightning Bolt matchup.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Sample Size n=1 games I cast it once, it drew two cards, and I won the game anyways. It helped that it was a card I could play proactively, but I am unsure it was the best card I could have played in the slot.