[Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought [Archive] - Page 3

Fox

05-26-2023, 07:57 AM

Playing yourself into Daze by squandering land drop on Maze is careless; particularly when you know they're just going to Wasteland it. Stop rewarding known deck construction.
---
As with UR builds, you need to get on-board on 1 mana - that's DRC in red and Reclaimer/GSZ-Arbor on green. Note that Reclaimer and GSZ are reasonable topdecks (unlike game-losing dead draws like mana dorks and Mox Diamond).

If you play UG you will get Surgical'd. Having quad laser Uro is suspect - not just because it's easy to wipe all copies, but that list @FTW has pretty much no way to cope with Karakas (must naturally draw Boseju). The end point is Surgical Nought and Karakas check Uro - draw all you like, you're out of credible wincons. -2 Uro, +2 GSZ.

In terms of things the rest of the format will do, which you need a better plan against: Chalice, E-Bridge, Relic-types, recursive spells (Loam/P-Fire), Lage, SnT, Kaldra.

^three slots not helping you here are Mycosynth + no plan for bigger mana investment. You top out at Uro, and you're not using filter mode nor colorless mana to cast that. At the low end of the curve, you've got nothing proactively fix mana for.

While we can find better things to use Mycosynth for like Haywire Mite, Relic-types we can copy *and cycle* with say Meltdown on the stack, proactive color-requiring plays (Reclaimer/GSZ-Arbor)...the top end mana investment is still just Uro...and we still know Surgical +/- Karakas is imminent. What use are 22 lands when you have no late game? Why isn't this like 2x Wasteland hitting Tomb, Lage, Karakas, enemy duals? (Especially if you can tutor specialty effects with Reclaimer)

The main issue in UG is still that you can't really interact or reset with a wrath; and Ice-Fang isn't a great replacement. You definitely have to run Ice-Fang though b/c it's the best you can do, and it gives you GSZ targets on 0 through 3 (Arbor to Reclaimer to Ice-Fang to Uro/Endurance) and blue count for FoW. There is also the flavor of the month you're going to be struggling profusely against with Ponder + Brainstorm + Uro + Sylvan and no removal for Faerie Miscreant. So yeah, forced Ice-Fang...also forced Currency Converter over Sylvan.

And this brings us back to the main problem with UG where Verdict is still the best wrath b/c it pitches to FoW/FoN while you work towards singleton Lotus Field (which combos with Stifle) found with Reclaimer, GSZ for Reclaimer, +/- Saga find Map.

While black stuff has less color color pips, Mycosynth isn't Snow-Covered and you can't pitch Dead of Winter. Nihil Spellbomb is vastly superior to Soul-Guide...but you can't copy it and float black off the same Mycosynth to get the cantripping. So we get stuck with a land (Mycosynth) that does some Dreadnought stuff, but can't contribute to a late game mana-intensive plan.

Survive to late game:
Ice-Fang x3
FoN x2
FoW x4
Verdict x2
Stifle x3

Be able to cast Verdict:
Reclaimer x4
GSZ x2
Map x1
Saga x2
Lotus Field x1

Dreadnought stuff b/c Dress Down dumpsters enemy Thassa and Saga and my Saga + Dress Down makes 12/12s and the whole Stifle in a Lotus Field stuff:
Nought x3
Dress Down x3

Need to answer random things the format does:
Wasteland x2
Haywire Mite x1
Endurance x2
Relic or Furnace x1
Boseju x1
Otawara x1

Some GSZ stuff:
Arbor x1
Uro x2

Need late game:
Karn x2 b/c Chalice killer, combo hater, anti-Surgical, Nought enabler, land killer
Nissa of the 5/5s x2 b/c it buys back things (like Karn) and 5/5 hexproof Lotus Fields are fun

Brings slots up to 45, of which 6 are lands. Add 8x perfect Fetch, 3x Snow Island, 2x Snow Forest, 1x Trop, and blue is important so add 2nd copy of Otawara. Now you just need to make some cuts to get Brainstorm in there, so push a Nought to SB, -1 card from top end (ideally want just to cut 2x from here but Nought stuff and SB constraints lock Karn as 2x and you still need access to Nissa's text), and the next 2 cuts for Brainstorm are harder...but even then, how's the blue count and should you be more aggressive about fixing the mana issues and be replacing Bstorm with OUaT...

The UG stuff is a mess, and murdering yourself (and your wallet) on dual spamming into enemy Wasteland so you can put all your survival onto a tertiary color is bad - it's all bad. Then you add Ponder on top and you'll never have late game or reset button slots...but then you have critical effects locked into higher land counts to cover lack of Ponder, but you have no late game and no way to get there. UG really needs Verdict to not be the best thing it could be doing while Ice-Fang and Uro pushing that hard on UG basics...and you need to be doing this b/c leaving enemy DRC running amok is not competitive, regardless of your archetype.

FTW

05-26-2023, 04:53 PM

Good points.

The plan vs Karakas was Saga -> Needle, but that may not be enough answers.

Although there's no big-mana endpoint for 22 lands, 5 of them turn into non-lands. It's really only 17 lands. The other 5 are "spells". Mostly extra copies of Nought. Is that worse than having Wastelands? Wasteland is awkward in an Uro plan, but maybe as a 1-2 of with Reclaimers.

Vs Chalice: 5 answers. 2 FoV, 2 Keg, 1 Boseiju
Vs Bridge: same

Vs Relic effects: Scroll, cheat out Uro without graveyard, Endurance-self in response, Saga -> Needle

Vs recursive spells: 4 answers main. 3 Endurance, Saga -> Soul-Guide

Vs Lage: 3 Run Afoul, Saga -> Needle on Stage

Vs Show & Tell: 3 Run Afoul, 2 Flusterstorm, FoN, Dress Down Atraxa, Ice-Fang ambush, Saga-> Needle @ Sneak Attack

Vs Kaldra: must Stifle/Dress Down/Needle to stop SFM. Can't answer resolved Kaldra.

Could easily add 1x Haywire Mite to add answers and value for Gardens.

Faerie Miscreant is a big problem without proper removal or red blasts. Maybe the RUG version is just better, gaining Bolt and REB (maybe Fury).

Splashing for Verdict is one option, but do you need such a controlling plan? Could you not play for midrange beatdown instead? Vs fast aggro that Verdict will be too inconsistent to stabilize (takes time to fix WW), but Powder Keg works?

Fox

05-27-2023, 01:16 AM

If you want to skip on reset buttons like Verdict, you need to be proactive (e.g. DRC and Bolt to dome) and reactive (e.g. Bolt target dude/PW and Blast target thing or kill blue permission). UG has pretty much nothing in this department. Sure you can do some proactive stuff on 1cmc (GSZ ramp, Reclaimer), but the Ice-Fang stuff isn't a universally meaningful play (i.e. everyone has a life total you can Bolt), and you have to resolve it through Daze and Pyroblast...and when it resolves, the odds dictate they have Bolt, so you're still losing 8 life to MurkGoyf - You've got 1 maybe 2 draw steps left.

For a brief moment in legacy this was okay b/c Delver had to use Tarmogoyf, and had to rely solely on opponent's card types to get to 6/7. This went exceedingly poorly for them since Uro is both a 6/6 and even suiciding into a 6/7 Tarmo was a trade with impending Uro recast, removing key card types with escape. Once Goyf picked up keyword flying (MurkGoyf), Uro lost the ability to force combat interaction as well as losing stat parity. Uro no longer acts additive defense with Ice-Fang.

Even though the Uro/Ice-Fang defense is probably going to fail, you still absolutely must run Ice-Fang in UG b/c enemy DRC will not only run you out of turns (combat dmg) like a Delver; but DRC will also make every one of those few turns harder by increasing their card quality...so you have to do something about it - and getting to 4 mana to resolve Endurance through Daze (p.s. don't ever get Waste'd, ever) or deleting yourself from the match with an evoke/Stifle-type all-in Endurance line isn't a solution.

While it's still all bad, you can at least cast Duress target Lightning Bolt - which is exactly what early Reclaimer/GSZ-Arbor are: Duress targeting Bolt, away from Ice-Fang. If Delver fails to play magic on these terms, they lose Daze (can't Daze a Reclaimer activation) or they run into ramp problems (which invalidates Daze +/- powers out Uro fast enough to overrun DRC issues).

If it was just Delver you had to care about, you'd probably be okayish with changes above...but you have to do something about the rest of the format, of which like >90% will massacre your Uro top end (only stuff like TES will lack maindeck & SB yard hate).

So it's a really poor idea to play straight into the most dominant legacy SB trope (yard hate), while also saying "I can afford to not have the answers in my main deck, and forfeit G1 against things like E-Bridge/Depths/Karakas/Chalice/Relic-types." You definitely need the FoVs and the Run Afoul type effects in the SB, but the maindeck itself has to have a plan to win game 1.

In UR that plan is to end the game with damage. In UG you need to extend the game + have something worth doing (and likely to succeed - sorry Uro) once the game is extended.

Even a full set of Ice-Fangs isn't going to drag out a game anywhere near as effectively as Plow/Ending - especially if you're also letting enemy strategies recur value due to no Wasteland and no FoN. With so much [insert opposing stuff] getting through in a game your deck will usually make go long, you need the reset buttons (Verdict-type). Then you need the ability to capitalize on that reset with a late game that does something which dodges the yard hate that lives in just about every SB and are already obligated to bring in.

Grind them to a halt with a reset -> make them react to a late game their netdecked SB has no tools against (it shouldn't be hard to identify the weakness with the most challenging strategies having already lost 4 slots to REB, 3 to yard hate, and 2 to mass artifact hate). The problem however is that Verdict is double off-pip and devours space and mana consistency to incorporate Lotus Field. In contrast UR skyrocketed in mana consistency with Vista, Otawara, DRC, Mycosynth, Currency, Dress Down - all of which also increase power, and play nicely with Saga replacing Factory...so there's not really a reason to dabble in a slower UG color set stuck choosing between high variance or game theory errors [no late game]

Captain Hammer

06-09-2023, 05:11 AM

Some 5-0s and other solid finishes for the deck…

Boshnroll 5-0ed with…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-atvZPmHdtc

2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
1 Breeding Pool
4 Daze
4 Death's Shadow
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
4 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Watery Grave

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Brazen Borrower
1 Court of Cunning
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Null Rod
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Torpor Orb
1 Winter Orb

&

4 Brainstorm
1 Brazen Borrower
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Dress Down
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Fury
1 Island
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Maddening Hex
2 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Murktide Regent
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Ponder
1 Rancor
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
2 Unholy Heat
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Volcanic Island
1 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Flusterstorm
1 Fury
2 Hydroblast
2 Meltdown
3 Pyroblast
2 Return to Nature
3 Surgical Extraction

I would personally replace a Berserk and a Rancor with Greater Good as neither card contributed to the 5-0.

Fox

06-09-2023, 07:31 AM

So one of the issues with that statement is that at no point did you (or Bosh) identify Berserk as a kill spell that ramps down life total - so whether offensive or defensive it's still a pump spell in every Shadow deck. This is particularly concerning b/c we literally see Snuff Out as kill spell that Invigorate's...so we know better than to miss the whole part where Berserk functions as the same card.

One of the most obvious spots is: 2x Shadow, like 16 life, and uh wtf are you doing discarding Stifle (vs Solitude deck) to stop a Timeless Dragon eternalize? Berserk kills it...ramps down life by additional 4...turns on both Shadow...protected from double kill by Solitude (if willing to lose to Plow).

Gotta be careful with that card evaluation when you're missing key interactions. That's even more important when these interactions are totally missed, leading to boarding out, and drastically reducing the sample size.

The big lesson in that league is: stop thinking legacy is modern. Temur Battle Rage is not at all representative of how Berserk is played.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

06-09-2023, 08:12 AM

]2 Berserk

You monster.
Just saying "hold my beer" to anyone claiming GG is a gimmick.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

06-16-2023, 11:39 PM

Clark Kant

06-28-2023, 07:36 PM

I played with Bowmasters tonight and the card performed great. Didn't even play against a fellow cantrip deck, just sniping dnt and gb creatures
Bowmasters were also the only black card in the deck plus two massacre side

Yes Bowmasters is so good and the black splash also gets you Thoughtseize which is another excellent way to protect Dreadnought and making sure the path is clear of opposing Bowmasters before casting Brainstorm. The format is full of /1 creatures and cantrips.

Even if we dont splash black, Dressnought is still probably the best positioned of all cantrip/xerox lists in this Bowmasters meta. Dreadnought and the threats that typically accompany it (Uro, Deaths Shadow, Kroxa, Endurance, Shelodred, Murktide etc) are resilient to Bowmasters pings.

FTW

06-29-2023, 01:06 AM

An even more relevant point is that Dress Down is a strong response to enemy Bowmasters. Stops their trigger, or buys you a window to cast cantrips. Dress Down's draw goes unpunished when other cantrips would fail.

Dress Down is extremely well-positioned against many format titans: Bowmasters, Thassa's Oracle combos, Initiative decks, Yorion ETB value decks. Dressnought maindecks 4 copies anyway, while other decks now cram some Dress Down into the 75 just to not lose to other broken mechanics.

UB also has Drown in the Loch which can either counter Bowmasters (prevent ability) or kill one in play.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

06-29-2023, 08:00 AM

FTW

06-29-2023, 06:34 PM

I do think there's some tension with Dress Down and Bowmasters, you cast Dress Down, they know it's safe to cast their own cantrips. If you don't, they'll be content to stare. The play might be, and I'm throwing up in my mouth as I type it, Standstill.

Standstill got even worse.

1U: Tap out sorcery speed to put Standstill on the stack.
1B: Opponent puts Bowmasters on the stack. Bowmasters resolves. Bowmasters beats down. If opponent even needs to crack Standstill, you get punished.

Meanwhile Dress Down beats ENEMY Bowmasters. They play Bowmasters, you respond with Dress Down. Or you can EOT Dress Down, then untap and freely drop cantrips & Dreadnoughts.

It has tension with your own Bowmasters (which you don't have to play, or you can choose better sequencing with own cards), but it pairs up well vs what the rest of the format is doing. If that's the case... maybe the cut is Bowmasters and not Dress Down? Or just play fewer Bowmasters. Same problem Urza's Saga had.

Fox

06-29-2023, 07:50 PM

Standstill is doing just fine. The more people play black, the less they can get under Standstill - remember legacy has never had a playable black 1-drop since the banning of DRS...and it's not like a player can sit there on 4x Delver (only 1 drop) and 4x Bowmaster b/c we know that those cards lose to MurkGoyf...and so we know the next 4 dudes are MurkGoyf (if you can't beat em, join em)...only it's sh*tty MurkGoyf b/c the other player has DRC mills.

If they're DRC + Delver + Bowmaster they are Honda Civic, which is a joke. The only thing that deck was ever able to do was no-skill legalized cheating with cantripping Lotus Petal (Probe) and Therapy...safe from response -> Wasteland due to DRS. Seriously, just Wasteland them and watch what happens when they don't have DRS or DeathriteMonkey.

I care precious little if an opponent has 1B mana up and flashes in a Bowmaster; they have to attack into a larger shark [while Standstill has nothing but time to play the up the land totals]. So team Bowmaster attacks *on their turn* and has to save their dude in combat with an instant [so they've constructed themselves out of EoT crack Standstill]. Standstill really don't care if they can ping a little into -> now I wrath you. The mindset of "I'm going to beat enemy Standstill by forcing myself to crack their Standstill" is misguided. You're not going to get there by making a 4/4 with a 1/1; Standstill is built to deal with 8/8 MurkGoyfs. Otawara is also going to be a massive beating for orc army.

The other thing about Standstill is we got the draw 3 effect on another mulligan-decreasing card name: Lorien Revealed. We don't really give Bowmaster much to trigger on; our mana progression is not tied to cantripping (we don't cut land slots for Ponder)...and that mana progression is increasing in relentlessness: fewer duals (Vista) -> more raw draw (Dress Down, Shark, Currency) -> higher lands totals thanks to spell mode (Otawara) -> all colors find blue (Lorien). None of these changes care about enemy Bowmaster.

FTW

06-29-2023, 11:24 PM

I'm curious to see how it plays out in a larger sample of games.

If they flash in Bowmasters in response to Standstill, it may take a few turns (land drops & random draws) to be able to deploy that Shark. If you only deploy Standstill knowing you have Shark, that's weakened the usecases of Standstill. Otherwise maybe you don't find Shark soon enough before taking many Orc hits.

Let's assume you get to the sufficient game state (enough lands in play, Shark in hand) to ambush attacking Bowmasters in combat. You tap out (or close to it) for Shark. The draw triggers Bowmaster (+1 to Army and ping you or add 1 damage to Shark). If that's enough to trade with Shark, maybe opponent allows it and keeps going with the other body. If the Shark is much bigger (tapped out and/or many land drops later), opponent has another line: cast instant removal spell on Shark. Standstill triggers: You draw 3, +3 to attacking Army, 3 pings. You're probably too tapped out to use those extra cards yet, so unless you have an unanswered Force that Shark never gets assigned to block, you take a bunch of unblocked damage + pings, and opponent can make postcombat plays vs your tapped lands.

If the Shark is 4/4 or smaller, opponent doesn't even need removal, any instant will make enough pings to kill the Shark and +4 the unblocked Army. If you rely on making a 5/5 Shark, those Orcs may get a lot of unchallenged attacks first...

I'm not saying that is an unwinnable position for Standstill (eg dig into Verdict after they crack Standstill to answer the Shark), but is that really an advantageous line to lean on to treat Bowmasters as inconsequential?

There are ways to get on board earlier in Black. They involve card disadvantage: Grief + trick, Dark Ritual + Opposition Agent/Bowmaster. Currency Converter/Saga? The meta may eventually adapt to pair Bowmaster with other things.

Example: You're UR Dreadstill. T1 DRC/Lavamancer. T2 Standstill. Seems like a safe play? Opponent flashes Bowmasters, killing your onboard threat and sliding in surprise bodies under Standstill (Murktide/Goyf cannot do that). Bowmasters starts attacking 2 per turn. How many Sharks are in your deck as outs? Saga helps but loses to Wasteland. Otawara on a 1/1 army seems wasteful. Do you break your own Standstill to answer the Orc?

Fox

07-08-2023, 12:54 PM

Captain Hammer

07-09-2023, 05:53 PM

Versus Bowmancer decks in 6-1 or so in matches; constructions include honda civic…

Not surprised at 6-1, the deck is very well positioned vs Bowmasters, but whats this honda civic deck?

FTW

07-10-2023, 01:28 AM

Versus Bowmancer decks in 6-1 or so in matches; constructions include honda civic, Shadow, and Uro/Grief, 5c maverick. Nothing quite like them all running basic Islands they can't use, and Daze they can't capitalize on b/c I have all the time in the world to make land drops. As expected, I'm very happy sitting there doing nothing, forcing the opponent to crack under the pressure of wasted mana, and spam out a 2 mana 2x 1/1s with no ping targets. The only real opponent in in these matchups is the mtgo shuffler, which does not accurately portray how statistics work. The Bowmancer play patterns are anemic, predictable, slow, and highly susceptible to Wasteland. The one that did beat me was the maverick build, and that really comes down to not auto-killing themselves by putting Daze in their deck.

Nice results.

What's your current build?

I'm not surprised Dress Down/Stifle decks do well against Bowmasters, since both stop the ability. It's Standstill I was unsure of. Otherwise the deck overall is well-positioned to beat Grixis or UB on many axes: punishing their mana, invalidating their Daze, countering the Bowmaster ability, making threats that don't die to Bolt.

Esper Staff Bowmasters seems like a tougher matchup. Have you faced that / did you have any input in Ark4n's Challenge build?

I think players will eventually discover the card makes more sense in draw-go control or midrange creature piles. Tempo decks can't afford to hold up Bowmasters indefinitely without deploying it or using mana. It seems inherently bad with Daze, yet most of the early builds had Daze. Draw-go seems a better fit. No cantrip to ambush? No problem. Develop lands. Cycle Shark Typhoon. Cast instants at EOT. Hold up counters that cost mana. Activate Staff. These are things that make sense to do if you have to pass holding up Bowmasters mana. Drawing Daze and Spell Pierce? No.

Fox

07-16-2023, 01:26 PM

Pretty much the same UR Dreadstill, just running some Lorien Revealed in a Brainstorm and land slot. Main change in Standstill is I'd rather have a 1 land + Lorien than a 1 land + Brainstorm. The thing that's so nice about Lorien is that you effectively go up on mana while going down on land totals. The amount of 1-land keeps increases, as a 1-land hand is actually a 2 land hand with Lorien. At 2 copies of Lorien, this accounts for 22.1% of opening hands (and thus 22.1% of 1 land hands).

The only real benefit of Brainstorm is negating a mulligan due to 5/6/7x land hands. Like sure, Brainstorm does some other stuff, but in a land-heavy deck it's mostly there to ensure that [at 4 copies] 39.9% of hands with 5/6/7x lands are reshapeable. So the question is how often are such hands seen. Counting Otawara as a land in opening hand and Spikefield as a spell (due to mana costs of spell modes), the odds at 23 not-Spikefield land slots are: 6.83%. Lorien displacing a land changes our number to 22, which brings the odds of 5+ land hands to: 5.57%.

Going down a land for Lorien changes 1 landers (here Spikefield counts as a land) from 12.1% (24 lands) to 13.8% (23 lands). But again, 22.1% of that 13.8% are actually 2 landers thanks to Lorien. So comparing the two, we have 12.1% 1 landers vs 10.75% with Lorien at 2x. The 0 landers goes from 2.16% to 2.67% with Lorien (approximately 1 in 50 hands seen to 1 in 40).

On the flip side, going back to 5+ land hands we went from 6.83% circumvented by 4x Brainstorm down to 4.1%. Meanwhile the Lorien build with 2x Brainstorm sends 5.57% chance of 5+ lander down to 4.3%. In either case we're ignoring the 5+ land hand that can't make any blue and the 7 land hand that can't have a Brainstorm, which is fairly impossible to roll without thousands of hands being seen. This is also ignoring Currency Converter and Saga find Currency Converter, which is also an out to land-overloaded hands.

Concerning optimal hands [2, 3, or 4 landers, where Spikefield counts as a land], we go from 26.9%/30.9%/19.6% on 24 lands to 28.6%/30.3%/17.8% on 23 lands. Again, we note that 22.1% of exactly 2 land hands have a Lorien by the odds; so it more or less works out to being equivalent, with better clustering at 3 land hands. Of the 28.6% 2 land hands adjusted for Lorien, the percentage of true 2 landers is 22.3%. The 3 landers goes up to 36.6%, adjusted for Lorien.

The tldr is that the mana works out a lot better + mulligans decrease in a Standstill manabase by pushing down Brainstorm copies. This mana/mulligan improvement process randomly craps all over Bowmaster.

FTW

07-16-2023, 03:21 PM

How many copies of Standstill are you running? Did you cut back on those as well as cutting Brainstorms? (Otherwise it seems strange to play 4 Standstill 2-3 Brainstorm)

If you're on something like 2 Standstill 2 Brainstorm, no wonder Bowmaster is not an obstacle, especially with Stifle and Dress Down and Spikefield.

I like that Dress Down's cycling is unaffected by Bowmasters or Hullbreacher.

Fox

07-16-2023, 06:38 PM

2x BS, 2x Standstill, and Standstill copies 3 & 4 are Lorien.

Clark Kant

07-19-2023, 01:36 PM

Im very happy someone is taking the time to post challenge finishes and 5-0s leagues on reddit again this week. All the challenge finishes and 5-0 Dressnought lists this week were UGr/UGrw surprisingly. Every other deck is splashing black for bowmasters and our deck also really benefits from Thoughtseize in clearing the path for a Dreadnought but all of our undefeated streaks this week came from lists that played every color except black!

Garmonzoria(sp?) 5-0ed and placed a challenge with this…

Artifact (2)
1 Mox Diamond
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
Creature (7)
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down
Instant (18)
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
Land (23)
1 Snow-Covered Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Urza's Saga
Planeswalker (2)
2 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Meltdown
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Life from the Loam
1 Counterbalance
2 Null Rod
1 Hydroblast
3 Pyroblast
1 Veil of Summer
1 Force of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Haywire Mite

I really love the concept of a 1 of Mox Diamond in a high land Saga list as both acceleration and an occasional Saga target.

With 4 Urza Sagas and 4 Wastelands, I would have expected to see some…

Yavamaya, Cradle of Growth
Mycosynth Gardens
As additional ways to turn colorless mana into Uro mana.
Urzas Saga and Mycosynth Gardens synergize so well together in Dreadnought decks.

Was expecting to see atleast some Dressnought lists playing…
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bowmasters

Thoughtseize to protect Dreadnought has won me so many games over the years. We are sort of a combo deck as landing just a hit or two with either Dreadnought or Uro or Minsc often wins the game. Bowmasters making the black splash even better is welcome.

Also curious if The One Ring makes sense in this deck since this is just about the last Uro deck standing in legacy. Uro negates the lifeloss of The One Ring.

The One Ring negates the card disadvantage of FoW or from stifling a Nought (should rarely be done, Stifle should almost always be saved for Uros/Fetchlands/Wastelands or to disrupt your opponents triggers.)

FTW

07-21-2023, 11:40 AM

The 1-of Mox seems like a useful Saga target. Is Chrome Mox better than Mox Diamond though? Seems like you get Mox when you can't afford to lose the land (Saga dies) or need color fixing for Uro or Minsc. When that's true, can you afford to lose a land from hand? Don't you need the mana?

If you're land flooded (have 1 to discard), do you want to tutor for Mox? How will Mox Diamond help mana flood?

If it was Chrome Mox, it helps when you're flooded on colored cards and short on lands, which is exactly when you want to tutor for a Mox.

Otherwise the deck looks pretty standard. 4 Saga 4 Wasteland is very greedy on colorless sources for a Uro deck. Maybe some of those should be Gardens.

The One Ring seems weak here. Can't afford more space for 4s. Deck had Daze, Wasteland and Saga to reduce your land count lol. Uro and Minsc are already a lot of top end. One Ring is better in control decks or Ancient Tomb decks, while this just wants to beat down.

FTW

07-21-2023, 11:55 AM

Also curious if The One Ring makes sense in this deck since this is just about the last Uro deck standing in legacy. Uro negates the lifeloss of The One Ring.

BUG midrange might be playable again. That would be a good Uro + One Ring shell.

Eg
//Creatures: 11
4 Orcish Bowmasters
3 Witherbloom Apprentice
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cling to Dust
2 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Chain of Smog
1 Toxic Deluge

//Artifacts: 3
3 The One Ring

//Planeswalker: 2
2 Grist, the Hunger Tide

//Lands: 20
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Boseiju, Who Endures

Something like that should be able to profit off Uro and The One Ring.

You could try to squeeze in Dreadnought, but there isn't really space or synergy. Witherbloom's a better fit.

Anyway, that's off topic. BUG Dreadnought could run Uro and Bowmasters, but probably doesn't have space for The One Ring. It's also awkward that Dress Down turns off your own Bowmasters.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

07-21-2023, 12:33 PM

Fox

07-21-2023, 03:28 PM

At baseline there are 2 ways: to play The "One" Ring. Either you have Sol lands or you have very reliable removal (Plow/Ending). In either case, you're talking about a ton of copies [deck space Dreadnought doesn't have].

Due to terrible design, the play pattern is knowably: draw 1 then lose 1, draw 2 then lose 2, draw 3 and abuse legendary rule to not suffer a free Bolt to the dome each turn. This is not tenable over time (see also why people play uncounterable Chandra +2 ability). The Plow/Ending side also gets to reset with Teferi -3.
---
On the Mox stuff, we just need to point out the card FoV exists, as well as multi-artifact kills (the second most common finding in any legacy deck regardless of archetype, after yard hate). Ask your local Parfait player how their god hands of Mox/Land Tax are working out vs FoV. Losing Saga + artifact card that can't replace itself isn't really recoverable; particularly when you're losing a 3rd card (the discard to Diamond or exile to Chrome).

We see this Mox acceleration stuff come up in Standstill quite a bit, and when you do the math you've warped a deck to play game actions...but you're not really going up cards (you draw 3 sure....but you discarded a Standstill and 2 cards to Mox...so???).

Ark4n had a number of streams with these Saga/Nought/Uro/MoxD builds. It works fine when you're ahead and spamming Loam, but quite poor at playing catch-up. There are also consistent problems with "I made constructs and I can't cast Dress Down."

^these problems are locked-in by slot investment. Manipulating a deck harder at the cost of a further -8 slot penalty [cantrips] just means you ram ever harder and more frequently into the deck construction problems. It's not sustainable with the Nought package also competing for slots.

Your next stop is trying again at 80 slot deck, as constructed.
---
As for Lorien Revealed, you are not doing the Ponder thing where you have terrible mana security and bloated color pip demands. You need to realistically threaten to cast it and draw 3.

This becomes nore problematic as Lorien cannot find what every [not-combo] Ponder deck relies on: finding and cheese'ing wins off 1-card combos. Things like: SFM, 2 mana Juzam (Goyf/Gurmag/Murk), Shardless, JTMS, Counterbalance, Hymn, Strix/Ice-Fang, Wrenn, Oko, Uro, Ragavan, Minsc, The "One" Ring....pick your era of legacy - I promise you Lorien ain't gonna tutor it.

While it is cool that a Lorien in hand makes the Mox descriptor of Chrome or Diamond equivocal, the Mox is sloppy deck construction that walks you into knowable (i.e. avoidable) blowouts. What you are looking for is cycling + Currency Converter.

FTW

07-21-2023, 05:56 PM

Maybe you can use Lorien to put Island Fish Jasconius in hand.

Fox

07-21-2023, 06:03 PM

Maybe you can use Lorien to put Island Fish Jasconius in hand.

Does not work, as you can't fetch fish into play.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

07-21-2023, 06:52 PM

Maybe you can use Lorien to put Island Fish Jasconius in hand.

Jasconius hasn't been an island in over twenty years

FTW

07-21-2023, 07:12 PM

Jasconius hasn't been an island in over twenty years

I'm glad someone got the (very outdated) joke.

Lorien Revealed is interesting but looks too clunky for Dreadnought. If it was an instant it might be playable in control (fixes land, pitches to Force, draws cards). 3UU sorcery speed is a lot just to draw 3. Compare that to Standstill, Sylvan Library, Brainstorm, Ancestral Vision, etc... even Predict. There are more efficient ways to draw cards.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

07-21-2023, 07:21 PM

You misunderstand what lorien and their ilk are: they're fetches that enter tapped, and pitch to forces and elementals
Don't think of them as spells, and unlike the MDFCs they're multicolored

Fox

07-21-2023, 11:43 PM

Lorien is only going to work if you have a coherent plan for your mana. When the plan is spamming duals into Wasteland and never getting to 6 mana to play around Daze, you're not unlocking the point of the card. It's also pointless to have no real plan for 1 mana, grab your second land while your dual (first land) gets Waste'd and end back up on 1 mana asking yourself why it is you can't deploy a 1 mana threat...particularly since this puts a sorcery into the GY at instant speed for DRC.

Play 2c, play basics. Add Lorien, drastically reducing true 1-land hands, and getting to & staying at 2 mana.

FTW

07-22-2023, 07:42 AM

Unlike fetches or MDFC, Lorien needs another land in play. It's more like Ash Barrens than Terramorphic Expanse (tapped fetch), except it doesn't have Ash Barrens' backup mode of entering as initial mana (2 Ash Barrens = 1 colorless + 1 fetch, 2 Lorien = 0 mana).

The ability's good. But it doesn't let you get as greedy cutting lands as MDFC (can be initial mana). You still need enough real lands to draw initial mana and not get screwed by Wasteland. It's also much better if you can use the 3UU mode.

Fieldmist Borderpost is a tapped dual that pitches to Force and Solitude, grows Saga constructs, and ramps. Saw 0 competitive play in the last decade. It's a weak way to spend turn 1. If it's not standalone mana like MDFC, the spell side needs to be relevant too.

If you do cut to 2c, is UB now viable with Bowmasters? Or is black still too weak compare to UR or UW?

Does the UW build want Samwise to recur Saga, Dreadnought, Dress Down, Standstill, etc?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

07-22-2023, 08:08 AM

It also DID see play (or it's ilk) with restore balance in either modern or legacy.
But also:
Sorcery Speed spell
Basic Land in play
Fixed dual
Enters Tapped (so costs two mana)
Vs
Activated ability
Any mana source
And land of the chosen type
Costs 1.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

07-22-2023, 08:11 AM

If you do cut to 2c, is UB now viable with Bowmasters? Or is black still too weak compare to UR or UW?

Does the UW build want Samwise to recur Saga, Dreadnought, Dress Down, Standstill, etc?
I like the sound of UB but there's a lot of cards out there I'd want in either green or red.

I don't think you want Sam., Not with dreadnought. Same way you don't want reanimate with dreadnought in your ub list. (Though you should probably play reanimate anyways for Bowmaster and grief)

Fox

07-22-2023, 09:46 AM

The problem with UB is that since the banning of DRS, the color has not had a playable 1-drop (Gurmag and Shadow can't be played turn 1). If we march out all the deckbuilding decisions, you always end up with UB-based Landstill being the better option. So the best UB-based Dreadstill build is just UB Landstill with a 13 card SB + Dreadnought & Scroll of Fate (just to meet the requirement of being called Dreadstill).

As far as UB Dreadnought goes: you don't have damage-based gameplan, you don't have turn 1 proactive plays (so you can't use Mycosynth effectively, and you can't count to 20 dmg), you can't use black's polarizing removal (Innocent Blood and 3 mana wraths hit your own things, Snuff Out can't kill enemy Bowmaster), Daze isn't helpful, we know that the only playable way for UB to answer Chalice is Karn, and so on. Meanwhile UB Landstill can play the asymmetry game of not really having creatures to turn on opponents' removal and not hitting itself with it's own kill spells. Everything that UB Dreadnought can do is too slow - and I mean as slow as Landstill...just without control. We're not going to play Qarsi High Priest,Sultai Emissary, Bowmaster, and Nought. I mean it is cool that you can sacrifice the orc army to manifest, and send the ping from Bowmaster to Emissary, but Scroll of Fate is better and less slot-intensive.

On the CA side of things, you're not allowed to play Confidant or Strix (too much waiting for cmc 2, too vulnerable to enemy Bowmaster, and too slow of a clock to pressure combo). Bowmaster itself is often a dead card, so you also need 4 slots of SB mapping to get this thing out of your deck in g2/3. Like I'm not going to play Arcane Denial to try and make Bowmaster relevant when the opponent isn't being cooperative (certainly not when Drown in the Loch exists). So we're down to Dreadnought and a Bowmaster we have to be able to side out....and uh....we're just doing what else? Playing into yard hate with MurkGoyf or not being able to block enemy MurkGoyf b/c we chose Sailors' Bane (aka SeaGoyf)? There are few things worse against combo than tapping out for Goyf.

Then what is the plan for the mana? Keep railroading yourself while all of these can't be cast while Saga is eating the mana at the same time as you need to deploy these? Then you go down a land b/c Saga died, and you're losing land drops to activating Wasteland...like when are you going to start playing the game; turn 5??? Okay well, now you need Landstill levels of controlling cards, otherwise your opponent is going to go crazy with 1 mana kill spells *the same turn as making PWs.*

On the Grief stuff, you don't have the CA to alt-cast this guy. The only redeeming thing is that Grief + Stifle is a turn 1 black threat....but your hand is now 3 cards (-1 land, -1 Grief, -1 exile, -1 Stifle). You're not winning from this point with a 3/2 menace. Even if you impeded your own combo by cutting Stifle for Reanimate, you're still probably losing...but also why is your 12/12 not Death's Shadow at this point?
---
On Samwise in UW, I can recur everything Sam could except for Karn for 1x slot of Sevinne's. Sam also has issues with being played at 1x since you need 3-4x copies to cheese removal; e.g. kill spell target Sam #1 -> cast Sam #2 -> kill Sam #1, rebuy Sam #1. UW doesn't have the slots for this, and for 2 mana I'm going to punish Daze users with Timeless Dragon.

With Sam you're better off without Standstill. You'd be doing something slow like Saga find Map find Karakas -> Sam/Dress Down looping to simulate Gush. Problem there is that that's 4 lands (2 to power Saga/activate Map/cast Sam, 1 from the Saga sacrifice, and 1 from Karakas); at 4 lands I could just go Teferi -> progress to Karn -> wish Coating -> Coat Teferi, bounce self each turn...but also I'd be answering a ton of effects with the passives and developing towards endlessly Sinkhole'ing my opponent's manabase before Teferi self-Gush'ing.

FTW

07-22-2023, 10:35 AM

UB Dreadstill wouldn't work (lack of proactive 1s to play under Standstill). The question is if UB Dressnought would. You make a good point that all the best tempo plays are done better by UB Shadow without consuming as many slots.

Shadow already jumped to Tier 1 since Bowmaster. So if you're running Grief, Bowmasters, Reanimate, Murktide, Daze, Thoughtseize, you're hard-pressed not to make those 12/12s into Shadows and have a more cohesive deck.

Edit: Shadow also gets to run the Swampcycling creature (mana stability) AND Reanimate it profitably OR Delve it to Murktide OR pitch it to Grief. I guess Dressnought can use Lorien as Uro fuel, but it's not getting the same level of value. Lorien hasn't been showing up in winning lists yet.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

07-22-2023, 03:42 PM

Fox

07-22-2023, 04:32 PM

Need to make a Venn diagram of everything in shadow that works with dreadnought.
Force, dress down, brainstorm ponder and Bowmasters in the center
Ofc no guarantee the things in the middle go with each other
Useless synergy until we can combine big stats + CA (Arguel's Blood Fast -> transform to Diamond Valley) + "when I gain X, opponent loses X".

Captain Hammer

08-10-2023, 02:11 AM

The biggest pro of Death Nought/Naked Shadow is Thoughtseize and the scam package (Grief/Troll/Reanimate).

Thoughtseize is amazing in a resolve/protect the Queen strategy for two turns to win the game like Nude Shadow lists.

But I feel the decks are being misbuilt. Murktide>>Channeler.

Slip out the back should be played here. I prefer it to the Stifle/Daze/Wasteland approach. I would rather be playing Slip Out the Back/Thoughtseize/Mycosynth Saga in those slots.

The only threats in the deck should be playing are some combination of Dreadnought, Death’s Shadow, and Murktide. These threats win the game in 2 attacks. The rest of the deck should be focused on resolving and protecting these threats. Utility threats like Brazen Borrower, Bowmasters, Uro, Troll/Grief/Reanimate are worth playing but more for their disputive role in helping resolve and protect the threats.

Basically every actual threat in the deck should win the game if it attacks 2-3 times.

In a world where initiative decks are readily able to get 4-5 swings in, if built correctly we should easily be able to get 2 swings in with our threats and win the game faster.

Fox

08-10-2023, 08:14 AM

So Thoughtseize is a pretty terrible magic card against FIRE. Not a card you want to be drawing when other people have Uro or monarch off Forth, initiative stuff, etc. The only redeeming quality to the card is that it contributes to the life loss engine of Shadow. The Shadow deck does not get better by adding Dreadnought package b/c they don't share tech (same concept as why Nought + Painter always fails to generate a real deck).

Trying to play 2-drop threat: the Gathering is bad deck construction (particularly vs combo which Shadow or Nought decks are supposed to farm). Adding crappy mana on top of that is worse. Adding Daze on top of the inability to pressure on turn 1, worse still.

Let's be very clear on this point: DRC is way better than yet another 2 drop. It generates pressure, it reduces variance, it passively combos with landcyclers and Saga (delirium; note also how the cyclers and Saga stuff does not make big Murktides), and it puts you in red giving you Blast effects and Price of Progress.

You want to time the meta? Cast Price. Just go to twitch and watch this 4-5c Ring decks and Shadow, count their dual lands and look at their life totals. Then look at what else is going on (Mind's Desire) - go back in time to RUG Delver vs Storm; how do you beat Storm: a turn 1 clock and disruption. Get on board, play DRC.

The other timing you're missing is Vision Charm. This card 1-shots Doomsday, 1-shots Saga, and 1-shots High Tide (Mind's Desire). Slip scores an impressive 0 out of 3 here. The other thing you can do is prevent Ring resetting: they cast #2, you phase out #1 and now they do not get to fade the upkeep damage (this is helpful b/c you play Bolt and PoP).

Captain Hammer

08-10-2023, 09:01 AM

The other timing you're missing is Vision Charm. This card 1-shots Doomsday, 1-shots Saga, and 1-shots High Tide (Mind's Desire). Slip scores an impressive 0 out of 3 here. The other thing you can do is prevent Ring resetting: they cast #2, you phase out #1 and now they do not get to fade the upkeep damage (this is helpful b/c you play Bolt and PoP).

Not sure what you mean by crappy mana. Shadow Nought can easily work as a UB Deck or a UBr Deck.

You’re minimizing the synergy of Dress Down with Shadow. They also complementhh hh each other in that Shadow, Dreadnought (and Murktide usually) are bigger than whatever your opponent has and can swing in with impunity for 12 damage while racing any creatures your opponent has on the board. You dont need to play removal if your threats are outright bigger and faster than your opponent. You can instead fill up the rest of your slots with proactive disruption (Thoughtseize, Grief), counterspells (FoW, optionally Daze/Fluster) and cards that protect your threats from removal (Slip Out, Vision Charm, Reanimate, Mycosynth Gardens)

Shadow/Nought/Murktide essentially end the game with even a single successful attack in a list with Bolts/PoP. Both are very cheap threats that you just need to resolve and protect for a turn or two in order to win the game. If the rest of the deck is built to do that, they work very well together. The appeal of Slip Out the Back is that it protects all of your threats from removal, not just Dreadnought but also Shadow, Murktide, Grief and Troll.

But otherwise good points and especially in regards to Vision Charm.

It hasnt occured to me how much utility Vision Charm has now. Definitely worth trying atleast as a 1 of if High Tide ends up a popular deck once the dust settles. Two questions…

How does it 1-shot Saga?

Dont both Slip and Vision 1-shot Painter for a turn as well? Is that worth it, stopping Painter for a turn?

P.S: Thoughtseize and Grief are excellent cards. Plenty of top tier decks succeed while utilizing proactive black cards as the majority or even the only disruption they play.

I am thinking my new list is going to cut some Stifles, Dazes and Wastelands and instead play the following Dreadnought package…
4 Dreadnought
4 Dress Down
2 Stifle
1 Slip Out the Back
1 Vision Charm (if Hide Tide stays popular)
1-2 Mycosynth Gardens
Maybe 1 Urza’s Saga if I am cutting Wasteland.

Alongside the shadow/scam/grief package…
4 Thoughtseize
4 Grief
4 Troll
4 Reanimate
4 Shadow
X Bowmasters
X Murktide

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

08-10-2023, 09:52 AM

How does it 1-shot Saga?
Name "Urza's" for the land type, and name anything for the basic land type.
The saga is now a basic land, and like with blood moon, dies due to being a saga past it's last chapter.

Captain Hammer

08-15-2023, 08:32 PM

The Shadow/Scam package is the best direction for the deck currently.

Boshnroll 5-0ed with a sweet build…

https://youtu.be/_pYeymSuFs4

4 Dress Down
4 Brainstorm
4 Death's Shadow
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
4 Grief
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
4 Reanimate
3 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
3 Troll of Khazad-dûm
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
3 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave

SIDEBOARD:
1 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Hydroblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Null Rod
1 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Surgical Extraction

The list is damn near perfect except for one fundamental flaw…
The Fatal Push/Dismembers are near worthless in the current meta. They did nothing all league and were sided out every round. If they were Daze, Bowmasters, Brazen Borrower, Spell Pierce or the 4th Stifle or 4th Troll or 4th Dreadnought, they would be much more impactful. You dont need to play removal if your threats are outright bigger and faster than your opponent. You can instead fill up the rest of your slots with proactive disruption (Thoughtseize, Grief), counterspells (FoW, Daze/Fluster) and cards that protect your threats from removal (Slip Out, Vision Charm, Reanimate, Mycosynth Gardens)

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

08-15-2023, 08:36 PM

New Lazav, the Multifarious just dropped.
https://mythicspoiler.com/woe/cards/likenesslooter.jpg

Captain Hammer

08-15-2023, 09:21 PM

New Lazav, the Multifarious just dropped.
https://mythicspoiler.com/woe/cards/likenesslooter.jpg

Functionally similar to Varolz, yes Varolz also combos with Shadow but the loot ability is a massive asset. If only it had 2 toughness it would absolutely be worth a slot or two.

Fox

08-15-2023, 10:16 PM

The new card is fine in the sense that Lazav is garbage vs Karakas and useless after they inevitably cast Surgical target Nought; whereas this card can still draw/discard. Bowmasters is about 40% of the meta however, so this card is a massive liability. There is also a problem where you can't trade with a Delver/DRC/Murktide/Endurance, which makes flying flavor text. You also run into the problem where black hasn't had a playable 1-drop since DRS.

In either case JVP is the better use of 2 mana, particularly with Darkblast targeting Bowmaster. Azcanta, and even Sultai Emissary, would also be better in this slot. Better still would be Scroll of Fate.

Captain Hammer

08-16-2023, 12:06 AM

You also run into the problem where black hasn't had a playable 1-drop since DRS.

We already play Deaths Shadow. Other than Shadow, what would a playable black one drop even look like?

A 1/1 that you can sac to thoughtseize your opponent, thats all I can think of.

White has taxing and protection, green has ramp, red has haste, what does black offer its creatures thats relevent to legacy?

Fox

08-16-2023, 01:03 AM

Can't Gurmag on turn 1, nor can you Shadow on turn 1. These are not real gameplans. Black has nothing comparable to DRC, Delver, Reclaimer, or Mother of Runes. The closest black has come to this is Reanimate/Grief, which begs the question of why we're diluting Shadow with Dreadnought variance without synergy (i.e. power) to offset the variance.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

08-16-2023, 07:53 AM

A 1/1 that you can sac to thoughtseize your opponent, thats all I can think of.

Cabal Therapist

FTW

08-16-2023, 02:38 PM

Cabal Therapist

Card designed for Modern has superfluous word "precombat", unlike Legacy-power cards like Carpet of Flowers. I think Cabal Therapist would see more play if not for that word. I've tried it in many brews, and it was always disappointing.

Grief scam is black's best turn 1 play. There's just no reason to pair that with Dreadnought. It might win a league here or there, but regular Grief scam decks are better. We're talking about one league 5-0 vs Grief Shadow already being the #2 deck in the format (without Dreadnought and Varolz): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#paper

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

08-16-2023, 06:02 PM

https://mythicspoiler.com/woe/cards/calloussellsword.jpg
A fling variant attached to a 2/2 that enters with+1/+1 for each creature that died before it this turn.
Pro: one mana, sacrifice is at resolution not a cost, bonus body
Con: sorcery Speed, targeting means they can remove the fodder creature

Fox

08-16-2023, 08:24 PM

Leaving the creature in play with the spell on the stack gives the opponent a second card type to target (i.e. massively increased fail rate). It gets worse: if they kill the Nought you're trying to "fling" you lose all 3 things - the Nought, the spell, and the adventure mode of dude bro.

Sorcery is also a huge problem as you can neither "fling" in response to kill spell, nor can you use this as a Dreadnought enabler (in the sense that it domes for 12 before sacrifice). This card comprehensively fails to imitate a Stifle.

FTW

08-16-2023, 10:56 PM

It'd be so much better if you could Fling Dreadnought in response to the sacrifice or removal.

Captain Hammer

08-17-2023, 09:09 PM

I do think Boshnrolls 10-0 suggests that Varolz is worth testing…

https://youtu.be/_pYeymSuFs4

Just replace Fatal Push with Orcish Bowmasters and Dismember with Daze and the deck is perfect otherwise.

FTW

08-18-2023, 06:30 PM

I do think Boshnrolls 10-0 suggests that Varolz is worth testing…

I tested Varolz Shadow ~10 years ago when the card was released. There's a very old N&D thread I started here, and another one started by Finn. A lot of other players here and elsewhere tested it too. Varolz looked like it had promise. But it ended up being more of a meme, a bit too slow and durdly for competitive Legacy. That was when DRS was legal, so you could even play turn 2 Varolz, then scavenge big guys onto DRS.

The question is what has changed since then to make the BUG Varolz plan better? DRS ban made it worse. It's always been possible to pair Shadow & Dreadnought with Varolz, but those decks never took off. Regular Shadow or Dreadnought decks did better. What's different now?

Dress Down is a big change. It made Dreadnought better and has synergy with Shadow. Still, regular Shadow decks and Dressnought decks performed better than the Shadow+Dreadnought hybrids.

The newest changes are Bowmaster & Troll. Both are powerful boosts to black. Troll also makes the Grief scam plan better (another reanimate target), and Reanimate/scam plays well with Shadow. Because of those changes, UB shadow is now a Tier 1 DTB.

How do those changes make Dreadnought/Varolz better though? Do Troll, Bowmasters and Grief scam somehow make Varolz+Dreadnought more viable than it was before?

I don't see how. Over a small sample size it's more likely the deck won off the back of the UB Shadow core - which is Tier 1 in this meta, especially in Leagues.

You can add a few questionable slots to a Tier 1 deck and still win a league. Does that mean Varolz has become good now though? Needs more testing.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

08-18-2023, 07:13 PM

The Dreadnoughts add 4 more shadows to your deck and veleoz adds even more. If I was allowed to run more Dreadnoughts I would.
Scam plans, traditionally, have difficulty closing a game because while you're good at stopping the op you're still riding a dinky little 4/3. Having a multitude of 12/12s means you have meaningful pressure

Fox

08-18-2023, 08:15 PM

The problem has never been doing the Dreadnought thing harder; see also Hunted Horror/Nought/Torpor. Moreover, it's not 4 copies of Plow and an easier to handle Snapcaster trying to recast those 4 copies of Plow... it's 4x Plow, 4x Ending and Mystic Sanctuary or it's Boseju/FoV or it's Plow/Solitude, and the list goes on.

Removal-based magic is common in real legacy (i.e. Swiss). Don't confuse removal-based magic's low league clear speed [diminished payout potential] resulting in boosted amounts of combo [high clear speed] with viability. Doing the Dreadnought thing harder isn't going to overwhelm the removal wall...especially if you can't play proactive magic on turn 1.
---
As @FTW and I have been saying, you're making Shadow worse; adding Nought to Shadow creates a less-winning deck.

If we look at Shadow at any point before 6 months ago or so, you have a deck that was not competitive (outside of being fed combo matchups in league). What made the deck better isn't more fatties - they were still losing with Murktide. What changed for them is:
-turn 0 Probe/Therapy imitation done by Grief/Reanimate
-ability to not get completely locked out by Strix-types (mostly as a function of Bowmaster, and to a lesser degree menace/supermenace, and to a much much lesser degree Dress Down stripping keyword deathtouch)
-picking up a combination of cards that more-or-less act as a wrath effect (Bowmaster's pings + Dress Down vs enemy constructs)
-decreased mana screw with modestly better mana (Troll + playing Basics)

^more fatties isn't the mechanism by which their deck wins. Ergo, adding Dreadnought stuff is cutting out how Shadow is finally finding success.

FTW

08-18-2023, 08:34 PM

In the 5-0 Bosh N Roll video...

Round 1: Mind's Desire Storm.
Varolz does nothing. Stifle catches opponent offguard. (one bonus from Dreadnought plan)

Round 2: Reanimator
UB Shadow plan wins. Varolz & Dreadnought boarded out.

Round 3: Solidarity
UB Shadow plan wins. Varolz used as Gray Ogre, any other creature would be better.

Round 4: Mind's Desire-Doomsday brew
G1 - First opportunity to pull off Varolz cheese. Opts for Reanimating Grief first (the better play), then eventually does the Varolz thing while opponent's deck lost to its own manascrew/bad storm build.
G2 - Board out Varolz. UB Shadow plan wins.

Round 5: GW Depths
G1 - UB Shadow plan wins. Varolz cast as Gray Ogre & dies.
G2 - Varolz boarded out. Bosh made Dreadnought but dead on board to bigger Marit Lage, opponent dropped by accident?

Imho that supports my instinct that he won off the back of regular UB Shadow being Tier 1. Varolz did the thing in 1 of 10 games, against basically a goldfish. Opponent was already losing to self on 0 lands. Otherwise Varolz got boarded out a lot or functioned as Gray Ogre.

Needs more results to show Varolz is good. This 5-0 10-0 was in spite of Varolz, not because of it.

Combining just Dreadnought with Shadow might be good, because Shadow is so strong now and maindeck Stifle/Dress Down punish a lot of decks. Then again regular Shadow probably 5-0s that league too. Shadow is heavily favored vs 4 combo decks (especially when round 5 opponent scoops a winning board state).

Captain Hammer

08-26-2023, 08:16 AM

Combining just Dreadnought with Shadow might be good, because Shadow is so strong now and maindeck Stifle/Dress Down punish a lot of decks.

Yes I think thats the way to go. Dreadnought basically becomes Shadow 5-8, a shadow that can be played without having to go down to 9 life. And since it has trample, you dont need to waste slots for Fatal Push/Dismember to remove small chump blockers that cant clock nearly as fast as your threats do.

In the current meta, for a deck with such a fast clock, Dress Down and Stifle are far more relevant and hate on a lot more decks than Push/Dismember.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

08-29-2023, 06:54 PM

Cross posting:
https://i.imgur.com/aV3fS62.jpeg
The era of slip out the back is over, The era of Gladriels Dismissal is now.

Fox

08-29-2023, 07:45 PM

That card is missing pitches to FoW, mill target deck after Doomsday, make things not-islands response to High Tide, and wipe out Urza's Saga.

Better card has existed since Visions. The one thing this card had going for it got ruined by the dumbest rules update ever - it no longer RFG's illegitimate game objects like Marit Lage or germ tokens (while also disappearing nonsense equips for the duration of the game).

FTW

08-29-2023, 10:32 PM

Vision Charm is powerful and flexible.

Slip Out the Back only offered 2 possible advantages: +1/+1 counter and works on secondary nonartifact target (Kroxa/Fury), but misses many of Vision Charm's backup modes.

Galadriel's Dismissal loses one of Slip's perks (+1/+1 counter), doesn't pitch to Force, and pushes you into another color. The kicked mode could be useful but needs WW and just fogs. Phasing out some passive abilities (Bowmasters, Hullbreacher) could be good, but W already removes them (StP). Slip or Vision Charm seem better.

Maybe UW could cheat out Solitude with Stifle/phasing? That would be the reason to consider white as a secondary color for Dressnought. Then you would still need a card draw engine in UW (not Uro), probably Standstill, but maybe Staff of the Storyteller.

Captain Hammer

08-30-2023, 05:04 AM

Dismissal has potential but the need for a white splash is a problem.

Btw, does anyone have a recent list? What do you think of this list?

4 Death's Shadow
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Murktide Regent
3 Troll of Khazad-dum

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Reanimate
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard
3 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
2 Null Rod
1 Plague Engineer
1 Hydroblast
1 Force of Negation
1 Brazen Borrower

What would you change? I would love to find room for a 4th Dreadnought and a 1 of Slip out the back and an Orcish Bowmasters maindeck. Is 4 Ponder still needed in this Orc meta now that we play Troll which often serves a function similar to Ponder?

FTW

08-30-2023, 08:21 AM

Captain Hammer

08-30-2023, 12:14 PM

I'd cut Murktide and add 4 Grief.

After both Shadow and Dreadnought, you don't need more big dumb things to turn sideways. That's not an axis your deck will struggle on, so use slots to shore up other axes instead. Murktide is also bad with Reanimate and Dress Down and makes you more vulnerable to grave hate (after already being on Reanimate).

You can Stifle Grief's sacrifice trigger (after the discard has resolved and you have perfect information), so Stifle is another way to scam turn 1 Grief.

You can go down to 16 lands. With Troll and a low curve that's plenty.

I'd try to find room for some card draw: maybe Sauron's Ransom. Space is tight though. You already can't fit Bowmasters main.

Fox will say Ponder is never necessary for Dreadnought, that actual card draw is better for assembling the A-then-B combo.

All great suggestions, ponder being a sorcery was always a pain. Being able to leave mana open for stifle, dress down, cycling, brainstorm, force of negation or saurons ransom etc are great. And stifle/daze/dress down are all stronger when you get early info about your opponents hand.

New list to test:

4 Death's Shadow
4 Grief
4 Troll of Khazad-dum
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Sauron’s Ransom

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard
2 DROWN IN THE LOCH
2 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dauthi Voidwalker
2 Null Rod
1 Plague Engineer
1 Dismember
1 Hydroblast
1 Brazen Borrower
1 FORCE OF NEGATION

Any additional suggestions regarding the MD/SB FTW?

FTW

08-30-2023, 01:05 PM

Looks good. A couple small tweaks.

3rd Watery Grave is probably better (and cheaper) than 2nd USea on the Shadow plan.

I'd play Nihil Spellbomb over Dauthi Voidwalker as SB grave hate. Voidwalker attacking is cool, but coming down turn 2 on the draw and missing things already in graveyard seems too slow for the combo matchups where you need grave hate. Spellbomb also policies fair graveyard-filling strategies (DRC/Murktide, Loam, Uro, Scam) and is generally amazing value.

On principle I don't like playing 2 Null Rod, since the 2nd copy is redundant. You could diversify artifact hate so the 2nd slot does something different.

Speaking of the other artifact hate slot, you need more outs to a resolved Chalice @ 1. Chalice @ 1 hits a lot of your curve and both big threats. Since you're on Null Rod instead of Karn, that slot doesn't cover it. You've just got the 1 Brazen Borrower... So maybe that means 1 Null Rod and the Plague Engineer should be Powder Keg/Ratchet Bomb so they can also answer Chalice (as well as hating on go-wide weenies and artifacts). Keg/Bomb will also answer Ensnaring Bridge, another big roadblock for decks like this.

Another option is to put 1 Scroll of Fate in the SB. It can make uncounterable flash Dreadnoughts and Shadows through Chalice @ 1, or it can be used to attack through Bridge with 2 cards in opponent's hand.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

09-22-2023, 06:21 PM

https://mythicspoiler.com/lci/cards/theskullsporenexus.jpg
So dreadnought makes it cheaper and also Dreadnought triggers it.
And it's beans compliant

Fox

09-22-2023, 07:03 PM

https://mythicspoiler.com/lci/cards/theskullsporenexus.jpg
So dreadnought makes it cheaper and also Dreadnought triggers it.
And it's beans compliant
Off-color Phyrexian Processor with extra steps.

If you're investing 3 mana to do Dreadnought things you need to be playing Scroll of Fate. (this new card requires -2 mana for Dress Down on enemy end step or 4 mana with Stifle)

To begin to be interesting we need to see :12: flash. Tap make a 12/12. Cost reduced to 0 by 12/12 on field.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-30-2023, 09:07 AM

The Ancient One
UB
Legendary Creature - Spirit God
Descent 8 - This can't attack or block if you have less than 8 or more permanent cards in your graveyard.

2UB: Draw a card, then discard a card. When you do, target player mills equal to that card's mana value.
https://mythicspoiler.com/lci/cards/theancientone.jpg

Can only attack through a Dress Down, but is Varolz friendly

Reeplcheep

10-30-2023, 09:26 AM

I guess it also works with Scroll of Fate

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-30-2023, 09:27 AM

I guess it also works with Scroll of Fate

Illusionary Mask too, but once once. And 8/8 without trample attacking once isn't really enough.
Sorry, there was an implied "and that's not good enough" when I mentioned dress down.

Fox

10-30-2023, 07:00 PM

In UB you died many turns ago to card type enchantment (see also Beanstalk). Unless this card triggered a draw/discard for no mana once per your turn, it isn't worth testing.

ESG

10-30-2023, 07:23 PM

In UB you died many turns ago to card type enchantment (see also Beanstalk). Unless this card triggered a draw/discard for no mana once per your turn, it isn't worth testing.

Fox, what's your current list? I'm assuming it's UW or UWr with Dress Down, Vision Charm, and Scroll of Fate.

Fox

10-30-2023, 07:27 PM

Fox, what's your current list? I'm assuming it's UW or UWr with Dress Down, Vision Charm, and Scroll of Fate.
UR Dreadstill, 4x DRC, 2x Lavamancer, 3 Nought. Only other change is 2x Lorien. 2x PoP SB, Beanstalk manabases are R.I.P.py af.

FTW

10-31-2023, 01:31 AM

UR Dreadstill, 4x DRC, 2x Lavamancer, 3 Nought. Only other change is 2x Lorien. 2x PoP SB, Beanstalk manabases are R.I.P.py af.

Still on LavaMan, even in a Bowmasters meta?

What about Izzet Staticaster? Doesn't -2 opponent though or manage GY size, but also doesn't die to surprise Bowmaster and can surprise kill them out of nowhere.

Are you playing the red modal land (deal 1)?

Fox

10-31-2023, 06:54 AM

Still on LavaMan, even in a Bowmasters meta?

What about Izzet Staticaster? Doesn't -2 opponent though or manage GY size, but also doesn't die to surprise Bowmaster and can surprise kill them out of nowhere.

Are you playing the red modal land (deal 1)?
Unless Lavamancer is summoning sick and not in 2/2 face-down form, it's not like Bowmancer is going to survive. Not that concerned about them getting a 1/1..and again Bowmancer isn't exactly effective against 6 slots of Stifle/Drmidrange.

The other consideration is that Bowmancer decks by definition cannot play land-go, and certainly can't play land-go with a 2 mana penalty by always holding up Bowmaster. If they have Bowmaster in hand, they have to play it b/c they are midrange.

Staticaster x1 is still in the SB. There is still 1x Spikefield in the main.

ESG

11-25-2023, 03:37 AM

I noticed fairly decent numbers for Dressnought in the analysis of Eternal Weekend Europe (https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/eternal-weekend-europe-2023-legacy-mainevent-j-k-entertainment-gmbh-tournament-145035/winrates), so I looked up the lists for the players, who finished 7-3 and 6-3-1.

The 7-3 list is UG and appears to be playing an aggressive, protect-the-queen strategy:
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/simic-tempo-decklist-by-canoptopus-1805507

The 6-3-1 list is UGW and is more fluid, with more of a midrange plan.
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/bant-combo-decklist-by-jorgechica-1805537

Both lists run Uro, but they're pretty different. Scroll of Fate, Urza's Saga, and Retrofitter Foundry in the second list are there to grind. I imagine the first list jams out Uro ASAP as a Dreadnought alternative. I don't think I've seen Subtlety in any lists before.

FTW

11-25-2023, 09:06 AM

Subtlety tech has been used by some and discussed here before, but is rare.

It's a 1-mana body with Stifle or Slip, like Grief scam. It's an interesting reaction to the Scam meta. If opponent tries turn 1 Grief, instead of getting your hand annihilated you can T0 counter with Subtlety (2-for-2 & Grief does not go to grave, unlike with Force). If you have U open (OTP) then you can counter Grief & Stifle in a 1-mana 3/3 flyer. Strong plays. Otherwise you can play Subtlety more slowly.

Subtlety also gives the deck more early threats to combo out. Uro is slow. Stifle+Subtlety is a faster play, so you can justify a tempo shell with Daze. Whereas if you're on 4 Uro then you're midrange.

I think the 3/3 is normally too slow to be worth comboing out in a speed plan (2-mana 12/12!), but its a good response to Grief scam and Initiative.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-17-2024, 08:00 AM

Time to give a good long look at manifest/mask enablers again...
https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/pyrotechnicperformer.jpg

FTW

01-17-2024, 12:39 PM

Wow that looks strong with Scroll of Fate + Phyrexian Dreadnought.

It gives a wincon outside the combat step or allows a 1-turn clock instead of a 2-turn clock:
EOT Manifest Dreadnought with Scroll
Untap, attack, turn face up for 1, deal 24 (12 ping + 12 combat)

Opponent can't interact with sorcery speed responses.

Fox

01-17-2024, 02:09 PM

Opponent can't interact with sorcery speed responses.

If both are on the battlefield these all fail:
-sorcery
-sorcery with Teferi +1
-instant
-split second

No matter what response is chosen they're taking either 12 or 15. The only viable response is Stifle effect.

FTW

01-17-2024, 03:24 PM

If both are on the battlefield these all fail:
-sorcery
-sorcery with Teferi +1
-instant
-split second

No matter what response is chosen they're taking either 12 or 15. The only viable response is Stifle effect.

They can't respond to the 12-15 damage, yes.

I meant sorcery speed can't even stop the 24 damage. You get a surprise 1 turn kill.

Scroll of Fate gets 1 hasty 12/12 attack before opponent has a turn. But you often need additional damage sources to count from 12 to 20 (Bolt, DRC, Lavamancer). Now you can just do 24 in one turn with EOT Dreadnought.

Tishana's Tidebinder may be the most dangerous response.

Fox

01-17-2024, 03:45 PM

Tidebinder doesn't really work here. If they counter the take 12 trigger, it obligatory strips abilities from the 3/2 that generated the trigger, leaving them in extreme trouble due to a 12/12 trample and 3 less mana (casting Tidebinder).

If a second 3/2 with disguise is present, the flip-trigger game is back on.

If they put Tidebinder on stack, it takes very little mana to cast a Dress Down while also blasting for 12-15.

Tidebinder is beyond useless at countering special actions, in the same way that Humility and Cursed Totem and Pithing Needle all in play together at the same time do not prevent turning cards face-up. Special actions are not abilities.

FTW

01-17-2024, 04:02 PM

It stops the 12-15 ping better than Stifle. It's not a crippling response, just better than most options.

You Disguise Pyrotechnic, it triggers, Tidebinder counters the 3 damage. Then the ability stays stripped, so any Dreadnoughts now or later don't deal 12. You can only get around it if you have a facedown Dreadnought not yet turned face up, then you can 12 them in response.

Tidebinder could also ambush Pyrotechnic in combat, to prevent removal unlocking it later. For that reason, you probably turn face up outside the combat step so you don't walk into both a countered trigger and ambushed attacker.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-17-2024, 04:26 PM

Half true: I can turn the Dreadnought up in response, or at the same time.
Also I like this card because simply having 2 is 9 damage. They stack.

FTW

01-17-2024, 06:22 PM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-17-2024, 06:41 PM

Mono R dread stompy

FTW

01-17-2024, 06:56 PM

Mono R dread stompy

Don't know about mono R, but 4 Ancient Tomb 4 Urza's Saga seems good.

Easier to power out Scroll of Fate or facedown 2/2s. You also get Broadside Bombardiers (not amazing with Dreadnought but still a good card).

At the top end you get Karn into Torpor Orb or usual Karn shenanigans.

Fox

01-17-2024, 07:01 PM

If you turn them up at the same time, both triggers stack, Tidebinder counters the 12 trigger (the 3 resolves), then Pyrotechnic loses future triggers.

The better line is to turn up only Pyrotechnic. If they Tidebinder, you 12 them in response, and they only stopped 3 instead of 12. If they don't Tidebinder yet, they take 3, and you can wait to turn up Dreadnought any time (when they don't have 3 mana open, unless they want to play the rest of the game -3 lands).

Anyway, this card is very strong and has few ways to stop it. Easy addition to URx Dreadnought.

Again not concerned about someone playing a 3 mana loses to Stifle, Dress Down, REB + dies to Bolt/Lavamancer. You can't counter a strategy by playing into countless cards guaranteed to be in the deck which perfectly obliterate the "counter".

In your assessment you're going too all-in on the idea of comboing 1-shotting. This 1R 3/2 is just Price of Progress magus vs any opponent regardless of land status/strategy.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-17-2024, 07:17 PM

Broke: scam elementals
Woke: torpor orb elementals

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-17-2024, 07:21 PM

Maybe not, orb doesn't play well with the new guy.
I'm thinking (hopping) there's a new illusionary mask/scroll of fate card in the set/commander set

FTW

01-17-2024, 08:57 PM

What's wrong with Orb? Orb plays well with it. Much better than Dress Down.

Orb plays badly with Elementals though.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-17-2024, 10:35 PM

What's wrong with Orb? Orb plays well with it. Much better than Dress Down.

Orb plays badly with Elementals though.

Orb plays fine with elementals, and protects assist fury and solitude, and if you're already in red keys you pay your own fury as 3/3 double strike for zero.
The reason not to pay orb here is because the new guy triggers on flios, and you don't flip on orb.
Mask and scroll, but have no symmetrical defense
Orb does no flipping, but stops sfm, Bowmasters, and any number of creatures being played for value

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-17-2024, 10:37 PM

https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/vannifarevolvedenigma.jpg
Here's a 4 cost scroll of fate user, choosing to pump the face-down team, or cloak a Dreadnought

Fox

01-17-2024, 11:10 PM

https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/vannifarevolvedenigma.jpg
Here's a 4 cost scroll of fate user, choosing to pump the face-down team, or cloak a Dreadnought

Counterpoint: you played a dude and it instantly ate removal. It's never putting a Dreadnought in face-down. Also red blast, also costs 4 mana with 2 color pips.

Scroll of Fate, since the moment it was spoiled. It has been best in slot for the entirety of it's existence for reproducible Nought enablers. Also it stays in play after a wrath.

FTW

01-18-2024, 01:46 AM

Yeah you're easily at Scroll #4 before the 1st Vannifar.

Orb doesn't stop flipping or the trigger. You could still manifest with Scroll & flip.

Orb plays badly with Elementals: you lose the ETB trigger. Scam gives both the body & trigger. Scam is better.

0-mana & 2 cards for a 3/2 menace, 3/2 lifelink, or 3/3 flyer seems bad. Opponent has forever to 2-for-1 them with 1-mana removal. Just play DRC.

Fury is better at 3/3 double strike. But Fury+Orb is worse than Fury+Stifle, Fury+Slip, or Fury+Reanimate. Why lose the free Pyrokinesis? Stifle & scam elementals beat Orb.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-18-2024, 08:46 AM

Because you're in mono red and don't have access to any of those except maybe sundial if the infinite
You know, the whole premise we're talking about?

Fox

01-18-2024, 10:44 AM

Yeah uh you are not finding success without blue in a Dreadnought deck. It doesn't matter how hard you can go on the 12/12 plan, you actually have to interact in this format.

But don't take my word for it, look at all the successes of Ancient Tomb Nought and Hunted Horror Nought and ShadowNought over the last 20 years. Big yikes!

Torpor Orb is a particularly poor choice as it does nothing in multiples. That's only the start though - they have this deck called Reanimator and not-Reanimator decks with Grief, among other discard effects....they also play Reanimate. Better hope you have a really good plan for beating 12/12s...

FTW

01-18-2024, 04:30 PM

I watched Tony Scapone's latest Challenge Top 8 vid (with combo of course). In one round he faced a Torpor Orb Dreadnought deck. Tony cast Phyrexian Metamorph to make his own 12/12. Tony's deck had more artifact copy effects, so the Dreadnought deck was forced to suicide its 12/12 into the other to prevent Tony out-12/12ing them. Then it had no real game plan... any future 12/12s would get copied. Orb really backfired.

Orb doesn't play well with elememtals. If that's the only option in monored, the answer is don't be monored. Stifle & Dress Down are so much better.

TombNought might be viable now due to the Manifest strategy getting better. Easier to Disguise, power out Scroll of Fate, or make Saga constructs. There's also Lorien Revealed to fix colors from colorless. These synergies weren't available most of the last 20 years. There are more synergistic uses for Ancient Tomb now.

FTW

01-18-2024, 06:10 PM

Ok, just brewing here... Say you did want to go MonoR.

Key considerations:
-No multiple Torpor Orbs
-Need multiple ways to get value out of Dreadnoughts
-Need ways to count to 20 when Dreadnought removed or combat step ended
-Card filtering to reduce variance of drawing too many Dreadnoughts when you don't want them

Instead of jamming 8x colorless Dreadnought enabler and ending up with a linear Tier 3 deck that can't do anything else, let's do something different.

So what if you have Dreadnought but no enabler? Instead of forcing out 12/12s, what if you can take advantage of the fact that Dreadnought is a 1-mana spell to convert it into:
-another card (activate Goblin Engineer in response to trigger)
-Lightning Bolt (postcombat play & sac to Broadside Bombardiers)
-4xBolt (Pandemonium lol)

Creatures like Vexing Devil and Slumbering Dragon also sound funny to Manifest with Scroll and then unmorph with Pyrotechnic out, but the failcase is very bad if disrupted.

Mono Red Draft

//Creatures: 21
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Pyrotechnic Performer
4 Broadside Bombardiers
1 Phyrexian Dragon Engine
4 Fury

//Spells: 4
4 Lightning Bolt

//Artifacts: 7
1 Currency Converter
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Torpor Orb
4 Scroll of Fate

//Enchantments: 5
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker
1 Pandemonium

//Lands: 20
4 Urza's Saga
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Shatterskull Smashing
7 Mountain
1 Great Furnace

Overall there are a lot of ways to make Dreadnought not a dead card:
Torpor Orb
Manifest with Scroll
Engineer fodder
Loot with Fable/Converter
Sacrifice to Broadside
12-shot with Pandemonium
Copy with Kiki-Jiki & sac one to the other

Goblin Engineer tutors Torpor Orb (only need to run 1 copy) or Scroll of Fate. It can then turn some artifact (even Fable's treasure token) into that. It can also get Dragon Engine to draw cards.

There are a few slots left. A natural morph creature with cheap unmorph cost seems good, working with Scroll & the Pyrotechnic.
Time to bring back Gathan Raiders? Raiders does 7 with Bombardiers and 5 with Pyrotechnic (for 0 mana)
Horde Ambusher is also a free unmorph and combat trick
Ire Shaman unmorphs as 3/2 Menace for R (Bolt with Pyrotechnic) and draws a card

The other option would be to play more artifact creatures to synergize with Saga & Engineer. Or maybe Aether Vial (which can combo out Dreadnought, pitch to Engineer, or build up to play Fury).

Is there anything remotely viable in this design space?

Fox

01-18-2024, 11:23 PM

@FTW - There's a lot of problems with that deck and the failure to interact. Combo is going to sculpt hand, cast all their spells, and win before you can get there with damage. Removal-based decks are going to remove your guys, and they will preferentially counterspell Scroll of Fate and Kiki-Saga. These removal-based players will likely not understand why that counter-strategy works, but the reason is that you don't play Fetchlands, and the land flooding will kill you if they preferentially target the only cards that help you not flood out on lands. The other type of deck you're going to run into issues against is MurkGoyf, because you didn't get an 8/8 when you payed 2 mana and you're detonating your own life total with Tomb and ETB untapped Shatterskull - they can basically ignore you and win while you're consistently in the setting-up phase.

Torpor Orb and Pandemonium is an anti-combo.

Acknowledging that your deck can't interact and instead focus on going even faster can be a viable strategy (TES, Oops, etc)...but Ancient Tomb isn't doing anything for you on turn 1. That's a problem. You've got mana acceleration, and absolutely no followup with that 2 mana. God help you if you slam that turn 1 Ancient Tomb, make no play, and then get tagged by Wasteland. You're skipping turn 1 anyways, so why isn't Tomb a basic Mountain?
^ofc the reason you don't remove Ancient Tomb is that the plays on 2 mana may exist, but they don't move the advantage bar; at best it's -1 turn to do some setup.

So your opening hands are coming from a deck with 16 lands you can play on turn 1, and 4x Ancient Tombs which will cause you to lose on the spot if they're the first land played vs hostile Wasteland. Of those 16 lands, 100% of them will not produce a meaningful turn 1 play pattern. Furthermore, of those 16 lands, you have a >50% chance to be a Wasteland target....so that even if they Waste the not-Tomb, and land 2 is a Tomb, then you still don't have a meaningful play (see above paragraph).

Okay so we can't make plays with a Tomb, and most of the time (>50%) a hostile Wasteland will delay your first meaningful 3cmc play...except that this requires your opening hand to have land you can lead with #1 -> if Waste'd land you can lead with #2 -> and Ancient Tomb. Let's check out the hypergeometric calculator on this one (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't in a situation of colored cards in hand with access to only colorless mana): 42.9% to see 3 or more lands in an opening hand. That's so bad.

...and if they don't have Wasteland, you have to get to 3 mana the hard way - don't worry, I'll ignore Saga dying and having to use Saga's mana to play your 3 mana cards rather than making constructs. Now you have a deck with a 42.9% chance of having those 3 lands. The odds of Tomb in an opening hand (to lower land requirement vs not-Wasteland decks to 2 lands in opening hand) only ever going to be 39.9%.

There's no point to playing a deck like this. Player skill is meaningless when your own deck is burying you with variance.

FTW

01-19-2024, 08:58 AM

Good points.

You can make Tomb faster and better by running SSG and/or Mox, enabling more turn 1 plays instead of just setup: Scroll, Fable, morph. But it's still weak to Wasteland blowouts.

Could also run basics over Shatterskull, but then there's the land flood issue.

Orb is a nonbo with Fury and Dragon Engine too, but as a 1-of it should be easy to loot away or Weld away when it's bad. Though opponents may strategically counter the pieces that enable that.

Overall you're right, it's just a lot of ways to cheese damage but no way to interact beyond burn. Could run Magus of the Moon main and some SB artifact singletons (Saga & Engineer tutor) but it's very minimal interaction.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-19-2024, 09:22 AM

Orb is a nonbo with Fury

It's not. Stop saying this

Fox

01-19-2024, 10:25 AM

It's not. Stop saying this

It kind of is. The case for aggro-pitch Fury + avoid the sacrifice is pretty narrow. You need to be up against a deck with pretty much no removal, and you also have to feel at enough of a disadvantage to discard half your hand to race.

For a good time, watch people with Dreadnought decks & Fury in sideboard consistently fail to bring it in vs Doomsday. Let's map this one out together:
-Turn 1 you're appropriately playing Dreadnought with blue cards, so you can aggro out a Fury. pass the turn*
-Opponent heavily favored to lose 1 life (Fetchlands outnumber their hard black sources) -> 19 life
-Turn 2 -> you're at 13
-Opponent casts Doomsday -> 6 life. Better win on turn 2 opponent, you're DOB. Hmm...Aggro Fury kinda seems strictly correct in this m/u, also it can trade with a SB Sheoldred "juke".

*if opponent can go off on turn 1: 19 life -> 9, and it is highly unlikely that they can also make Thassa that turn. So Fury takes them down to 3 -> uh oh, we play Bolt and/or good luck with cycling those Street Wraiths mate.
---
The list of decks you're not winning against with the aggro-Fury include:
- Elves/dude combos: you have to wait for them to go off a little first, wipe their board, and then make Fury stick. (so not Torpor Orb)
- Ancient Tomb dude decks: like the Elves-types you need let them play some dudes, get blown out by trigger, and then die to effective 6/3 (again, don't want that Torpor Orb)
- Non-removal-based, non-Tomb dude decks (random stuff like Goblins): they're going to successfully chump things without keyword trample, and beat your 3 card hand. Also, you need to let them play some dudes, get blown out by trigger, then turn Fury sideways.
- Removal-based decks: you aren't winning by nuking your opening hand down to 3 (-1 land, -1 Fury, -1 pitch, -1 card to make Fury stick)
- Half-removal/half-dude combo (so like Breakfast)
- Maze of Ith
- Depths with Removal (GW)
- Delver (Bolt)
- Grief with Reanimate: thanks for playing Torpor, I'm taking your 12/12.
- Oops: doesn't matter if Fury can clock them, they lost to anything that looks like Stifle/Torpor/Dress Down. A stiff breeze would be winmore.

Some places it might work against:
-SnT
-non-removal Depths (Turbo)

Some places you do want to aggro-Fury:
-Doomsday
-Ichorid, subset manaless and LED Dredge (for dual land type, see Elves-type above)

So let's just tally this up and think about all the tier 1 decks as one block of legacy, and recognize it's a really bad play against all of them unless they're called Doomsday, and questionable if they're called SnT.

Edit: if we're trying to apply this idea that aggro-Fury is good in a list like @FTW made, remember that you're mulling almost 2 of every 3 hands, as built, due to insufficient lands in opener.

FTW

01-19-2024, 11:38 AM

It's not. Stop saying this

Ok, 2 cards for a 0-mana 3/3 double strike is decent. Hope opponent doesnt have Bolt. Sometimes it races.

But what if you WANT Fury for the removal instead of the body? With Orb you don't get a choice. Only 3/3.

Dress Down+Fury: choose either 4 damage or 3/3 body
Stifle/Slip + Fury: both 4 damage AND 3/3 body
Reanimate + Fury: 8 damage & 3/3 body
Orb + Fury: only 3/3 body

Orb's the worst Fury enabler. And makes casting for 3RR bad.

Orb's better with Hunted Horror at least (except for racing Doomsday). Maybe you could try some RB deck with Dreadnought, Scroll, Pyrotechnic, Horror, Kroxa.. Scroll cheats them out and they all unmorph well with Pyrotechnic.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-19-2024, 12:04 PM

Yes zero mana 3/3 double strike with hexproof from solitude and fury are "good" and if you don't think they are, reassess your approach to card evaluation

Fox

01-19-2024, 12:56 PM

Yes zero mana 3/3 double strike with hexproof from solitude and fury are "good" and if you don't think they are, reassess your approach to card evaluation

Are you confusing cards with something that has pro-white?

Decks with Solitude are not the beatdown, the Fury player has to play into Solitude as response.

Edit: nvm you're saying Torpor in play. The issue there is lifelink. Both players are taking 3 per turn.

FTW

01-19-2024, 02:45 PM

0 mana but 2-cards (3 including Orb).

2-for-1d by common cheap answers like
Lightning Bolt
Daze
Swords to Plowshares
Leyline Binding
Hydroblast
Blue Elemental Blast
Sheoldred's Edict
Molten Collapse
Brazen Borrower
Aether Spellbomb
Chain Lightning
Unholy Heat
Murderous Cut

3/3 double strike is dangerous unstopped... but dies in combat to 3/4 or bigger: flash 0-mana Endurance, Uro (Torpor Orb enabled), Murktide, Questing Druid, Saga constructs, Tarmogoyf, Hooting Mandrills, etc.

With Fury on stack, opponent could also disrupt with disenchant effect on Torpor. If opponent has no creatures to burn, that disenchant is a 3-for-1.

This kind of play seems good goldfishing but is easily punished. Why not play Brute Force? 1-mana 6/6 double strike!! But it costs too many cards, blown out by answers.

In comparison, Hunted Horror+Orb is better for pure beatdown (doesn't die to most of those removal or blockers, doesn't get 2-for-1d, faster clock). Still hexproof from Solitudes.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-19-2024, 04:03 PM

So which is it:
Is it a nonbo, or is it a plan you don't like?
Please make up your mind.

Fox

01-19-2024, 04:20 PM

So which is it:
Is it a nonbo, or is it a plan you don't like?
Please make up your mind.

It's a play that AggroLoam's your hand down to 3 cards on turn 1. When it fails to win the game, you are not going to catch up. Just circling the drain, playing a game that's already lost.

FTW

01-19-2024, 04:45 PM

So which is it:
Is it a nonbo, or is it a plan you don't like?
Please make up your mind.

It's a nonbo. Orb forces you to lose several good modes of Fury even when you want them.

If spending multiple cards on turn 1 3/3 double strike is a plan you like, the good combos are: Stifle, Reanimate, Slip Out The Back, Ephemerate. Those make the 3/3 without impairing Fury's other modes (the nonbo part).

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-19-2024, 04:56 PM

It's a nonbo.

Stop.
Please.

FTW

01-19-2024, 05:00 PM

Fox

01-19-2024, 05:40 PM

You asked me to pick between two choices. I'm not allowed to answer picking one?

Reanimate/Stifle + Fury is a combo.

Torpor makes Fury lose good abilties.

If you don't want to take my word, look at results. Scam Elementals has many Top8s. Where are the Torpor Orb Elementals?

You're arguing with someone who thinks 3-for-1'ing yourself magically becomes viable because 3-for-1 is better than 2-for-1'ing Noughts into 1 mana kill spells.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-19-2024, 10:17 PM

You asked me to pick between two choices. I'm not allowed to answer picking one?

You were supposed to make the right choice and instead chose the dumb one. Because you made the bad choice I'm telling you to stop.
Cards that create a zero mana 3/3 double strike is a combo, end of fucking story.
I expect dipshit answers from Fox, but I expected better from you.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-19-2024, 10:19 PM

See? Here he goes again

You're arguing with someone who thinks 3-for-1'ing yourself magically becomes viable because 3-for-1 is better than 2-for-1'ing Noughts into 1 mana kill spells.

I didn't say any of this, dipshit

FTW

01-19-2024, 11:11 PM

You're arguing with someone who thinks 3-for-1'ing yourself magically becomes viable because 3-for-1 is better than 2-for-1'ing Noughts into 1 mana kill spells.

Guess I'm arguing merits of modal abilities and card advantage with someone who just wants fast beatdown.

Who cares about lost abilities if it's a 3/3 double strike?

... in a format where the bar for beatdown combo is:
12/12 trample
20/20 flying indestructible
6/5 super menace
7/7 flying lifelink draw 7
15/15 flying protection annihilate 6

That's what you get in Legacy for spending more than 1 card.

For 1 card, the bar for vanilla beatdown is set by Murktide Regent/Tarmogoyf. It's been like that since Goyf came out.

Legacy's full of smaller creatures... but its their abilities that make them relevant. Fury's much worse forced to lose its damage ability.

And you don't even NEED to lose the damage ability. Scam combos give both the 3/3 double strike and the damage.

Nonbos are when you make your own card worse, when you don't need to.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-19-2024, 11:13 PM

Nonbos are when you make your own card worse, when you don't need to.

Making six power for zero mana is better than making it for five mana, hope this helps

FTW

01-19-2024, 11:29 PM

Making six power for zero mana is better than making it for five mana, hope this helps

Where are the Torpor Orb Elementals top 8s?
Now how many top 8s has Fury made without Orb?

Burn 4 is better than burn 0, hope this helps.

Including Torpor, it's 2 mana and 3 cards total.
Is Bushi Tenderfoot+Mutagenic Growth+Prey Upon a "combo"? (That's much better too)

1 mana & 3 cards makes 6-power AND burn 4:
Fury + red card+ Stifle
Torpor does a worse imitation and stops your burn.

Fox

01-20-2024, 12:25 AM

I didn't say any of this

The funny thing is that you did say this, you're just not running the scenarios and counting the cards. Let's explore your idea, and give you a <50% odds opening hand you don't obligatorily have to mull:
-play Tomb, down to 6 cards
-play Torpor, down to 5
-burn hand down to 3 to make a Fury

Incoming hostile plays that result in you losing:
-FoW Fury, Wasteland to stone age
-Wasteland to stone age, take a hit for 6, deal with Fury next turn with 1 mana kill spell
-FoW Fury (5 card hand heavily favored over hand of 3)
-land into 1 mana kill spell

Now I get it, you're excited about this Torpor Orb that gets worse in multiples and lets discard decks with Reanimate beat you with your own cards. You're excited b/c Torpor is in play and somehow the last 3 cards in your hand will be more threats than the opponent can handle + extra mana for when they have Wasteland. You're excited b/c somehow their deck will always be crippled by the Torpor passive, and they won't do something like tap 3 for Uro.
^Unfortunately that's not how legacy or variance works...and you still have to stop people from completing a combo in less than 4 attacks. Even if you had blue in the deck, you'd be too low on hand size to win on the stack.

Like if every deck you faced had Thassa, you'd be fine...but the vast majority of decks would be very hard to beat with these aggro-Fury tactics. The thing about Fury is that outside of this scenario would pretty much require the opponent to lose at least 2 cards to the Fury trigger to recoup card parity - and this is what @FTW is also pointing out: you can't recoup that parity if you Torpor'd yourself out of the comeback game.

You need to sit down and watch people play AggroLoam and look and what's left in their hand at the end of their first turn, after they self-Mind Twist with Mox hands. Those 3 cards left in their hand are going to be conspicuously similar to what your deck idea would have left over to follow up with. It's not much, and you won't have the mana safety of a Mox in play.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-20-2024, 12:38 AM

The funny thing is that you did say this,

I didn't, dipshit

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-20-2024, 12:41 AM

Where are the Torpor Orb Elementals top 8s?
Now how many top 8s has Fury made without Orb?

Burn 4 is better than burn 0, hope this helps.

Including Torpor, it's 2 mana and 3 cards total.
Is Bushi Tenderfoot+Mutagenic Growth+Prey Upon a "combo"? (That's much better too)

1 mana & 3 cards makes 6-power AND burn 4:
Fury + red card+ Stifle
Torpor does a worse imitation and stops your burn.

DYK the presence of other, better combos doesn't make a different combination of cards a combo?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-20-2024, 12:48 AM

Broke: scam elementals
Woke: torpor orb elementals

Maybe not, orb doesn't play well with the new guy.
I'm thinking (hopping) there's a new illusionary mask/scroll of fate card in the set/commander set
Here's what I actually said, that I didn't want to play orb.

FTW

01-20-2024, 12:51 AM

DYK the presence of other, better combos doesn't make a different combination of cards a combo?

Ok, I get it, this is over the term "nonbo" vs a worse combo.

You agree it's worse than Scam. You agree it's a strategic blowout. You just think it's not a "nonbo" because it makes the 3/3.

The nonbo happens midgame. You already played Orb + Dreadnought/Fury. Opponent killed it. Later you draw Fury. You want to kill opponent's creatures because that's more relevant than racing from behind. But you can't. Orb stops you. That's the nonbo.

Or you topdeck Fury when you have 3RR but no red card... and Orb only makes Fury worse. Nonbo.

Or you have Fury and Reflection of Kiki-Jiki, but can't copy for damage. Nonbo.

Orb stops Fury from doing useful things. The other combos don't.

Your own card backfiring on another -> nonbo

Scam Fury never has that problem. It's not just a better combo. It also lacks the nonbo part.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-20-2024, 08:27 AM

Ok, I get it, this is over the term "nonbo" vs a worse combo.

It's really that simple.
Evoke+orb=combo

FTW

01-20-2024, 09:19 AM

It's really that simple.
Evoke+orb=combo

See above.

With Orb already in play from earlier turn:
Orb + Fury when you need Pyrokinesis more than a 6/3 = nonbo

Orb + Fury + no red card but 3RR = nonbo (Orb made Fury worse)

Orb backfires on Fury. Burn 0 is worse than Burn 4.
Scam & Stifle don't backfire, no nonbo.

Fox

01-21-2024, 02:00 AM

It's really that simple.
Evoke+orb=combo

Love the enthusiasm, but you can't look at red stompy shells and see Fury being a functional maindeck card and make it equally viable in Dreadnought w/ Torpor.

-can't represent repeatable mini-wraths with Kikki-Saga
-can't put Fury without text under a Mox
-can't get to 3 mana as easily as red stompy
-can't constrict opponent's plays with Tomb mana (Chalice-types)
-you don't really have much going on with 1 or 2 points of mana
-red stompy exclusively exclusively1-card combos alongside Fury, with the exception of Chrome Mox which requires a second card (but this counts for mana)

At some point you need to be able to recognize that "I am not doing the same things with the same tools. Ergo how their cards work and compete cannot be borrowed at 100% efficacy."
---
So your plan is to obliterate your opening hand to 3, just like AggroLoam...except your Mox Diamond'y mana boost [Tomb] gets killed by Wasteland...but unlike AggroLoam, you haven't come to terms with the reality that you need to rebuild your hand size (which will be hard b/c you're not able to play the game effectively until 3 mana...which means you need most of the cards left in your hand to be lands, rather than action).

^although @FTW isn't spelling this above scenario out for you, they keep correctly pointing out that you need access to the deal 4 trigger (because it's the only way you'll ever dig yourself out of the 3 card hand hole you dug yourself into). It's almost like there's a reason Tomb + Nought has never worked, ever.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-21-2024, 09:14 AM

See above..

Repeating the same broke-brained take of "yeah, but what if they have the answer to my combo" doesn't make it not a combo. It's utterly unhinged you're arguing with me on this. My God.

Fox

01-21-2024, 09:48 AM

Repeating the same broke-brained take of "yeah, but what if they have the answer to my combo" doesn't make it not a combo. It's utterly unhinged you're arguing with me on this. My God.

You make a 3/3 double strike and have 3 cards left in hand. How exactly is that going to compete in legacy? This is Chandra's Incinerator is legacy playable levels of nonsense.

dte

01-21-2024, 09:54 AM

Fox

01-21-2024, 09:59 AM

If I read correctly the few previous posts, the three of you (4dogs, Fox, and FTW), fully agree that torpor orb + fury is not a winning strategy nor a sound base for deckbuilding, at least if you want to win matches in legacy.

You also seem to agree that the two cards interact, and that this combination (which 4dogs very literally calls "combo", which FTW calls both combo and nombo, and which Fox calls a bunch of expletives) is far less useful to win legacy games than alternatives, or even fury alone.

Do we need 20 more posts on the topic, and are there any reasons to continue on the topic of orb + fury?
Control+F "dipshit" won't bring up my posts. Edit this, now.

For example: Fourdogs insists this is a combo, provides no recognition of the simple fact that you have to recoup CA, provides no recognition that Tomb has no place in this archetype, and when educated by others on shortcomings in his logic they oscillates between personal attacks [with expletives] and "it's a combo"

dte

01-21-2024, 10:48 AM

Control+F "dipshit" won't bring up my posts. Edit this, now.

"Edit this, now" is a bit aggro.
But sure, 4dogs called you names.

For example: Fourdogs insists this is a combo, provides no recognition of the simple fact that you have to recoup CA, provides no recognition that Tomb has no place in this archetype, and when educated by others on shortcomings in his logic they oscillates between personal attacks [with expletives] and "it's a combo"

Maybe re-read 4dogs' posts: (s)he seems to fully agree that orb+fury is not good and should not be played. It seems that for you "combo" means that it is good and/or worth playing, while it doesn't imply it for 4dogs.

I agree that it was not particularly well nor politely communicated by neither of you.

The thing is, you generally have interesting posts in this topic, and I am sure we are several that use to enjoy reading it. The last pages seem to circle round.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-21-2024, 11:03 AM

Don't make me tap the sign:
Do not engage with Fox!

FTW

01-21-2024, 12:04 PM

Ok, acknowledging dte's point and getting back on topic, I do want to address this separate point:

provides no recognition that Tomb has no place in this archetype

Tomb's historically never had a place in Dreadnought. Is that worth reconsidering due to new cards?

1) Lorien Revealed
Before Tomb would risk color-screw or inability to develop mana. Lorien lets colorless fix for U or UR

2) Currency Converter
As above, Converter lets Tomb fix & loot. Tomb helps Converter loot more efficiently

3) Urza's Saga
Tomb is clearly good with Saga, which is also good with Dreadnought & Converter. If T1 Tomb gets Wasted, less likely Saga gets Wasted before it turns into a 12/12, so that's not necessarily bad.

4) Pyrotechnic Performer + Scroll of Fate
Performer + Scroll are clearly amazing with Dreadnought. Tomb makes Scroll and Morph easier to cast. There could be another playable disguise creature in the new set too.

5) Karn, the Great Creator
Karn is a already a good top end for Dreadnought decks: killing Chalice, providing card advantage, Null Rodding artifact decks, playing mana denial, or tutoring higher-variance Dreadnought enablers (1-of Torpor Orb). Tomb makes Karn better.

6) Fable of the Mirror Breaker
Another good payoff for Tomb that helps red fix colors or smooth variance

7) Prismatic Vista
While not directly related to Tomb, it means you can play Tomb + 8xfetch + Loriens and have reliable access to basics, so you don't get color-screwed by Wasteland (T1 Tomb T2 fetch into Volcanic lets opponent Waste Volcanic and leave you on 0 colors). They may Waste Tomb but won't take you off colored spells.

For most of the history of Dreadnought where Tomb was not viable, these cards didn't exist. The Tomb decks were linear monocolor 4x Torpor Orb 4x Illusionary Mask builds, suffering from variance issues and lack of ability to pivot plans. I think we can all agree history has proven those builds not competitive (although I did get some wins with Mask-Nought during the brief Mental Misstep era - Tomb decks were extra strong then). But now Tomb doesn't have to look like that.

The monored build I proposed above is clearly not viable. But what about a UR deck with 2-3 Tombs? Or even 4 Tomb? Or maybe an RB deck? The 2nd color gives more interaction with opponent. The Dreadnought-related payoffs for Tomb are higher now, and the manafixing is better too.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-21-2024, 12:33 PM

When I got into legacy back in 2011 or whenever I was using tomb/city to great success. It was blue stompy with orb/mask/stifle plus monolith for the t1 Dreadnought, backed up with force and misdirection. And a few larger colorless creatures like wurmcoil that didn't need your Dreadnought plan to succeed.
Eater of Days was in a supporting role.
I think I stopped because Thought knot seer was printed and the eldrazi seemed better and I slowly transitioned their way.

Fox

01-21-2024, 12:35 PM

"Edit this, now" is a bit aggro.
But sure, 4dogs called you names.

Maybe re-read 4dogs' posts: (s)he seems to fully agree that orb+fury is not good and should not be played. It seems that for you "combo" means that it is good and/or worth playing, while it doesn't imply it for 4dogs.

I agree that it was not particularly well nor politely communicated by neither of you.

The thing is, you generally have interesting posts in this topic, and I am sure we are several that use to enjoy reading it. The last pages seem to circle round.
Expletive: an oath or swear word.
Your post: "and which Fox calls a bunch of expletives"

Expletive is not a valid contraction of Explain + Explicit. There is one person using expletives here and it is FourDogs, and nobody else.

Now I did shut down FourDogs pretty hard because "it's a combo" does not equal "it's competitive" and the goal of threads on this website is competitive discussion. I spelled out why the deck will lose to its mana, lose to its mulligans, fail to interact/move the advantage bar in early turns, and have inadequate followup. FourDogs responds with nothing of substance and resort to his default personal attacks, a pattern we've seen many times before in this thread.

Stuffy Doll and Blasphemous act is a combo too? So what? Saying it's a combo over and over doesn't change that it isn't competitive. FourDogs needs to stop floating this idea that Fury and Tomb is the future of Nought. It's patently ridiculous. Not sure how we can make that sound nice. The fact of the matter is that at any point FourDogs could have explained how the game was going to evolve that would result in a viable gameplan.

Unfortunately we're dealing with someone who thinks a Tomb deck ahead on board with Fury racing a 3/2 lifelink. I mean come on. :laugh:

FTW

01-21-2024, 02:00 PM

It was blue stompy with orb/mask/stifle plus monolith for the t1 Dreadnought, backed up with force and misdirection. And a few larger colorless creatures

Was that in the Mental Misstep era?

MaskNought and Blue Stompy both hit their peak in that meta. Turns out it was strong to be on Tomb/City, Chalice @ 1, FoW when everyone else was on 4x Misstep 4x Brainstorm playing with 5-card hands. HiveMind won an SCG lol.

MUD also got a surge after the Metalworker & Monolith unbans. Wurmcoil's a good backup plan and hard for the format to answer outside StP. But that MUD surge didn't last long.

Unfortunately some builds that did well a decade ago got power-crept out of the format. Not viable now.

If you were to make colorless Nought now, Monolith does help accelerate into better turn 1 plays. Instead of Standstill or Uro, you get card draw from The One Ring, so co

Monolith / Key / Tomb / Saga / Ring is a proven shell that's known to work. The question is if putting Dreadnought in that shell is better than just playing combo (Mystic Forge, Coveted Jewel, Paradox Engine) or playing regular artifact beatdown.

Fox

01-21-2024, 02:50 PM

Was that in the Mental Misstep era?

MaskNought and Blue Stompy both hit their peak in that meta. Turns out it was strong to be on Tomb/City, Chalice @ 1, FoW when everyone else was on 4x Misstep 4x Brainstorm playing with 5-card hands. HiveMind won an SCG lol.

MUD also got a surge after the Metalworker & Monolith unbans. Wurmcoil's a good backup plan and hard for the format to answer outside StP. But that MUD surge didn't last long.

Unfortunately some builds that did well a decade ago got power-crept out of the format. Not viable now.

If you were to make colorless Nought now, Monolith does help accelerate into better turn 1 plays. Instead of Standstill or Uro, you get card draw from The One Ring.

Monolith / Key / Tomb / Saga / Ring is a proven shell that's known to work. The question is if putting Dreadnought in that shell is better than just playing combo (Mystic Forge, Coveted Jewel, Paradox Engine) or playing regular beatdown (Patchwork Automaton, Karn 2, Urza).

What date range are you referencing here? Mask was banned from 2004-2010 (which is really odd since it actually cast cards, while Aether Vial never has, and Vial is a much more egregious card. Darksteel released 2004). That sounds like we're in the UR Dreadstill tier 1 status era (until the printing of Snapcaster in 2011, which tipped balance in favor of UWx Landstill, until 2012 when Legacy took a very bad turn with quad-laser CB/SDT enabled by printing of Terminus). As an aside, Monolith was also banned from 2004-2010.

Random finishes are not markers of viability. UG StifleNought more recently getting into some small top8s off the back of rolling 3-4 rounds of autowins because the field was ~30% Delver, in 6-7 round events isn't a good marker of viability either. If you could post a 33% winrate vs not-Delver, you were top16.

The reproducibly strong performance supposedly put up by TombNought is hard to believe in a format where a tier 1 deck can trade off 12/12s, and had access to red artifact hate. We'd also be talking about a pretty different time where Plow was alone and not re-castable from GY. It's also a time largely before the widespread printing of effects that could give -2/-2 status (which does not trigger a flip). There's a lot of reasons to not use this as an example of success for TombNought. If Tomb's endpoint is dies to removal and not really a followup, it's not viable (hence why you see ForgeKarn, 8cast, etc).

Edit: you have to go off the source to find the original starting point of Dreadstill as tier1. I want to say it was like 2005-ish, if I remember correctly. The timeline suggests what you describe is flavor of the month syndrome, recently unbanned edition.

FTW

01-21-2024, 03:14 PM

What date range are you referencing here?

The Mental Misstep era. Around 2011.

It was after Misstep was printed, before it was banned. I wouldn't call it flavor of the month, but more like the recent Lurrus meta: the entire format warped until the ban.

It was also shortly after the Monolith & Mask unbans, so Tomb decks were a popular reaction to Misstep. Snapcaster and Terminus had not been printed yet so Tropical Island was still worth much more than Tundra (i.e. it was still better for blue to play Goyf than to play to beat Goyf; that also made Dreadnought better, since RUG is worse at beating Dreadnought than UWx).

Legacy was the 2nd biggest format back then. An SCG win was a 1000+ person major sanctioned tournament, one of the biggest in the world, not a random finish. Hive Mind winning such a large event was not a fluke; blue stompy was very strong in the Misstep era, so strong that a janky combo like Hive Mind could win games in a long event.

MaskNought had a good winrate then too for the same reason. StP was invalidated by 4xMisstep in 90% of decks and Chalice @ 1 in yours. Mask could cast Dreadnought at 2 cmc right through Misstep & Chalice, without opponent knowing for sure what you were putting on the stack.

Edit: UR Dreadstill was good that year but not a DTB, though UWx Landstill had waned by then. The dominant fair blue decks pre & post Misstep were Canadian Thresh, Stoneblade, UGx CounterTop Goyf, and NO Pro. Misstep made fair blue awkward and parasitically hate on each other; Tomb decks sidestepped the Misstep arms race and left them all with dead cards.

Fox

01-22-2024, 12:25 AM

Yeah gotta be careful reading into that timeline. I wouldn't read too much into legacy during Breach, Flash, or Misstep; these make TC Delver look pretty reasonable. Concerning the cmc on Mask'd dudes, it's always 0 on the stack. The amount of mana you pump in doesn't change that (you can tell by looking at the top right of the face-down card and seeing no mana cost). That raises another question of whether or not people knew the rules b/c a Chalice on 0 is a 4-for-1 vs Mask. As someone who played thousands of games with Mask, it is exceedingly rare for any player in magic to know how Mask works. You also have to question how many times both players failed to enforce the rules of paying 3 mana for Trinisphere after activating Mask. Do you know of any youtube videos of these matches, I think it would be interesting to see how many GRVs were made and how commonplace Chalice gamers throwing the game was.

Youtube has poor cataloguing this far back but this is pretty telling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad1Aau4W-sY. It's at least Mask, but I haven't seen any Tomb stuff. Pretty incredible slow play, and around 9:40 one of the talking heads don't even know if Mask casts spells vs putting them into play, and continues to incorrectly guess how the Mask works for multiple minutes. It took about 15 minutes to find. Anyways you get even more confusion around the 29min mark combat, and also the Mask player is overpaying for Nought into a Daze deck. Loosey goosey stuff all around. I'll have to see if there are more examples of Mask.

FTW

01-22-2024, 01:22 AM

Yeah gotta be careful reading into that timeline.

Who was reading into that timeline?

If you're implying I extrapolated from the Mental Misstep era to a deck's viability outside the Mental Misstep era, gotta be more careful reading more carefully.

Concerning the cmc on Mask'd dudes, it's always 0 on the stack. The amount of mana you pump in doesn't change that (you can tell by looking at the top right of the face-down card and seeing no mana cost). That raises another question of whether or not people knew the rules b/c a Chalice on 0 is a 4-for-1 vs Mask.

This was over a decade ago so maybe I'm remembering the gameplay wrong. I just remember Mask let you play 1cmc Dreadnought around Mental Misstep and Chalice @ 1, because it didn't count as 1cmc on the stack. Playing around Chalice @ 1 was critical because you were the one playing Chalice. Paying 2 may have been to confuse Dreadnought with other creatures, not to beat Chalice. It was a long time ago.

The quirk of the meta at the time was that 90% of decks were on 4x Mental Misstep. The few decks who weren't were on Chalice @ 1 and nothing at 1cmc (to punish the Misstep/1cmc decks).

Most decks had 0 copies of Chalice. If facing a Chalice deck, it was very rare for them to Chalice @ 0 in game 1 (because you could be Moon Stompy, blue stompy, MUD, etc). Then once they saw you weren't a Misstep/1cmc deck they would board out Chalice. MaskNought wasn't Tier 1 or prevalent enough for players to specifically metagame around, but it did have a good win rate due to favorable matchups in the warped meta. Perhaps misunderstanding of Mask also led to opponents not thinking to keep in Chalice @ 0 for game 2.

Do you know of any youtube videos of these matches

It was very rare to stream matches back then. That took off later.

FTW

01-22-2024, 01:56 AM

Youtube has poor cataloguing this far back but this is pretty telling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad1Aau4W-sY. It's at least Mask, but I haven't seen any Tomb stuff. Pretty incredible slow play, and around 9:40 one of the talking heads don't even know if Mask casts spells vs putting them into play, and continues to incorrectly guess how the Mask works for multiple minutes. It took about 15 minutes to find. Anyways you get even more confusion around the 29min mark combat, and also the Mask player is overpaying for Nought into a Daze deck. Loosey goosey stuff all around. I'll have to see if there are more examples of Mask.

Interesting. Watching the match now. That must be a Hunted Horror + Dreadnought Mask deck, hence the black heavy mana instead of Tomb.

Slow play was very common then in paper Magic. Players would sit and shuffle their hand cards around, whether they were actually thinking or just pretending to think or just drawing out the drama. Sometimes it was to bluff thinking about interaction, sometimes it was to pause long enough to make sure your face wasn't giving a tell. Sometimes it was just to make sure they weren't acting impulsively. Whatever the reason, it was quite common, even for players who weren't new to the format. It does seem slow by today's standards though.

Edit: I figured out why he payed 2 for Nought.
The facedown creature could be anything: Nought, Goyf, Hunted Horror, something smaller (Bob seems reasonable to play in that list). He wanted opponent to hope it was Goyf or Bob. If it was, the correct line was to attack with both Goyfs and Factory to push damage through. If it was a Nought, attacking was a bad idea. He needed the Goyfs to attack into Nought to turn the game around. If he paid 1, it was obviously Nought. By paying 2, maybe opponent would attack into it. It paid off. They did attack into Nought, suiciding a Goyf and then eventually losing that game. However that line does walk into Daze. The Standstill player may not have even realized Mask still casts the spell.

Fox

01-22-2024, 03:30 AM

Interesting. Watching the match now. That must be a Hunted Horror + Dreadnought Mask deck, hence the black heavy mana instead of Tomb.

Slow play was very common then in paper Magic. Players would sit and shuffle their hand cards around, whether they were actually thinking or just pretending to think or just drawing out the drama. Sometimes it was to bluff thinking about interaction, sometimes it was to pause long enough to make sure your face wasn't giving a tell. Sometimes it was just to make sure they weren't acting impulsively. Whatever the reason, it was quite common, even for players who weren't new to the format. It does seem slow by today's standards though.

Both players were savagely misplaying at almost all points, but it was round 2 and one of the players looked like they were 10 years old. Watching videos on the hunt for Mask didn't generate any more hits. SCG articles recapping 2011/2012 don't mention anything about Mask (Hive Mind is readily located). MtgTop8 has nothing on this Tomb + Nought until 2020. Tons of hits on Dreadnought dating back to 2007 (I would guess this is when their website began existing). There is a single deck with Torpor Orb + Mask in BG that pops up with timestamp 2011. We should have records that TombNought was finding success in that time window?

FTW

01-22-2024, 04:00 AM

This is what I said about MaskNought above, that started this discussion.

For most of the history of Dreadnought where Tomb was not viable, these cards didn't exist. ... I think we can all agree history has proven those builds not competitive (although I did get some wins with Mask-Nought during the brief Mental Misstep era - Tomb decks were extra strong then).

Was that in the Mental Misstep era?

MaskNought and Blue Stompy both hit their peak in that meta. Turns out it was strong to be on Tomb/City, Chalice @ 1, FoW when everyone else was on 4x Misstep 4x Brainstorm playing with 5-card hands. HiveMind won an SCG lol.

blue stompy was very strong in the Misstep era, so strong that a janky combo like Hive Mind could win games in a long event.

MaskNought had a good winrate then too for the same reason.

If you read carefully, you'll notice I never claimed any of the following:
a) Results in Misstep era could be extrapolated to other eras
b) MaskNought was Tier 1 in the Misstep era
c) MaskNought was commonly played in the Misstep era
d) MaskNought was playable for a long period of time or now
e) TombNought found great success in that meta window

What I did say was:
- I got some wins with it then
- MaskNought was at its peak in that meta
- "Tomb decks" were extra strong then (not "TombNought decks")
- It was strong to be on Tomb/City, Chalice @ 1, FoW (not that list of cards + Dreadnought)
- MaskNought had a good winrate for the same reason

The example I gave for winning Tomb decks was blue stompy/Hive Mind.

I just asked 4Dogs about his build, speculating if his deck did well because of the meta strengths of the blue stompy shell at the time.

MaskNought wasn't my main deck at the time. I do remember getting a good win rate with it, seeing other players on it too, and noting the overall shell was positioned well in that meta by playing around the common decks (probably getting free win % from opponents misplaying against Mask). It did not see widespread play though, and did not get the kind of results that Hive Mind did.

The point was to say that Tomb+Mask+Nought was not viable in the past, except perhaps during that warped meta. However, the past also didn't include a lot of cards available now.

The reason to consider Tomb now is not the Misstep era, but the list of newer cards above that you've ignored. I was trying to start discussion about those cards and their impact on the viability of Tomb now. They solve some of the problems TombNought decks had in the past.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-22-2024, 08:24 AM

There was a 3 card monte thread with the general concept of colorless Dreadnought then if that didn't work Karn lattice?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-22-2024, 08:27 AM

https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33850-3-5-Colorless-Card-Monte&highlight=Card+monte
Here

FTW

01-22-2024, 10:26 AM

Watching videos on the hunt for Mask didn't generate any more hits. SCG articles recapping 2011/2012 don't mention anything about Mask (Hive Mind is readily located). MtgTop8 has nothing on this Tomb + Nought until 2020. Tons of hits on Dreadnought dating back to 2007 (I would guess this is when their website began existing). There is a single deck with Torpor Orb + Mask in BG that pops up with timestamp 2011. We should have records that TombNought was finding success in that time window?

Notably UR Dreadstill is almost invisible on mtgtop8 in 2011 and hard to locate in YouTube videos, yet you're claiming it was Tier 1 then.

Under 2011 Dreadnought, there are few results in general and most are not actually Dreadstill (labelled wrong):
https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=85&meta=61&f=LE
1 Uwr Dreadstill
1 Urb Dreadstill
3 RUG Stiflenought
1 UB Stiflenought
1 UBW Stiflenought
1 BUG Stiflenought
1 UW Stiflenought
1 URB Stiflenought
1 Hive Mind (0 Dreadnoughts, mislabelled)

Only 2 Dreadstill decks in 2011. Both events under 60 players. No presence at the SCG series.

Not much more data supporting Dreadstill than MaskNought!

Part of the problem is there was much less streaming and data collection of smaller events back then, so coverage of Legacy Magic in the early era is spotty. The best coverage came from the large SCG events.

Edit: On the other hand there are still a ton of results for UWx Landstill: https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=34&meta=61&f=LE
Landstill was still tier then. I played it a lot up until 2012ish when Terminus radically changed UW control.

Fox

01-22-2024, 11:24 AM

The point is that results exist for one and not the other. There's around 10 entries of not-Aeon Bridge for 2011 with search criteria Dreadnought, so it was still around.

The original date range I was working with was 2010 as Mask/Monolith are unbanned, where you can see Dreadstill finishes including: #2 of 498 (15 May 2010) -> #16 of 200 (17 Oct 2010) -> #3 of 218 (7 Nov 2010). The deck is still putting up results at the close of 2010, and no impactful legitimate printings coming to mind until Snapcaster in Sep 2011. So yes, you still have to be careful about tier decks fighting TombNought on the 12/12 axis.

We do have the illegitimate impactful release of Misstep in Feb 2011 and the ensuing clown legacy format, ending Aug 2011. While we can see Hive Mind during this period, TombNought is either invisible or nonexistent.

One thing that is clear about this period is that the entire Dreadstill community didn't figure out how to put Mask in their deck vs Misstep, and presumably most went on to other decks never to return (the closest migration is Standstill/Landstill). It's been a few years since I read the entire Dreadstill and UWx Landstill threads, but I do remember discussion of Torpor Orb but not much to any discussion of Mask. I think you have to wait until I pick up the deck (around Khans) to find anyone realizing how important it is to change cmcs.

So in this 2011 clown legacy period, we've got a failure to see Mask visibly incorporated pretty much anywhere, despite favorable mechanics vs Misstep. While we see people still using Nought, we note that Aeon Bridge is less common that UR Dreadnought builds, and B/BG MaskTorpors is less common than Aeon Bridge, and then we see just straight-up no record of TombNought. This is with YouTube and MtgTop8 and SCG searches; so again where can this information be located?

From the rare video of Illusionary Mask in 2011, it is apparent that wide swaths of legacy players (including Mask pilots themselves and commentators) have no idea what is going on...but the sample size is 1 so far, and that was a round 2 VoD. The Mask pilot who looks all of 10 years old gets a pass on this due to age.

I'll take another look later today, but at this time it looks like nobody seemed to understand what the cmc of a morph was on the stack, or that there was a spell on the stack in mid-2011 (pretty sure that was an scgBaltimore event).

Edit: yep end of June, Baltimore almost 1 month from the ban on Misstep. https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/too-much-information-baltimore-legacy-open/ another look at the data. Let me know if there's a set of specific scg event where we can find evidence of lasting success by TombNought.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-22-2024, 11:46 AM

Was that in the Mental Misstep era?

I didn't pla in that era and was still cashing scgs in 2013. I loved just spamming Dreadnoughts and eaters with force/daze/misdirection backup

Fox

01-22-2024, 12:44 PM

The monored build I proposed above is clearly not viable. But what about a UR deck with 2-3 Tombs? Or even 4 Tomb? Or maybe an RB deck? The 2nd color gives more interaction with opponent. The Dreadnought-related payoffs for Tomb are higher now, and the manafixing is better too.

When we talk about the pure Volcanic family of decks with novel endpoints and achieving that endpoints better than any other approach and able to compete, you're down to 2 things:
-SnT (Tomb)
-Dreadstill
-while we might be tempted to list UR Delver, it will always suffer from a better Delver deck on different colors (i.e. not a valid endpoint deck)

So the question is always whether or not deviating will increase winrate. One of the biggest issues in pure Volc is that it's the single worst color set in the game at lifegain and trustworthy removal. The Tomb constantly dome'ing the life total requires resets (annihilator 6, draw 7, lifelink/value etb) +/- winning on the spot. You do not have time to derp around with poor color access while blasting your lifetotal with TombNought. There is utility in watching how many turns SnT can stay in a game, and figuring out what you could realistically accomplish with Nought with similar mana builds featuring Tomb in that time (your ability to interact and extend the game won't be much better).

While you may be able to power out a Scroll or Karn quicker, you don't have a game plan before that to fall back on, and it's not like you win b/c these resolved. During this time your mana total is exposed to Wasteland, and it's easier to run into color screw.

You play a few games with it and then start adding the bad cards like Shadowspear as you chase down Saga for win% and eventually ask why you haven't cut the Noughts and become 8cast for bigger better constructs. This lesson is learned rapidly when you keep failing to navigate a deck with 4x Saga 4x Dress Down fighting eachother. It's an expensive journey for those who don't already have the cards.

As compared to non-Tomb Volcanic, you can't use DRC and you won't have their consistent plan of adding on damage. The terrible access to lifegain and interaction of UR is offset by the proactive pressure exerted. After an aggressive early game, the opponent is being attacked by by mechanics they cannot build against (if they want to be able to compete with the meta). We get to mid & late game and start shuffling things around with Scroll's guessing game, Mycosynth tricks, Converters, and Otawaras.

^While Dreadstill trades up on variance for this increased power, opponents generally find themselves in a really bad situation where I'm deliberately targeting stationary targets (netdecks and their SBs) while they are playing boring old 1-for-1 magic using the only lines their linear cards allow.

It would only benefit my opponent if I cut all my lines of play to power out linear cards the opponent is pre-built to answer. Tomb is one of the highest variance cards in the format, and although it's easier to mana fix with colorless landcycling and Vista, the Tomb will always prevent adequate incorporation of coherent 1-2cmc plans. Can't be getting Wasted off 3 mana and losing Sagas to suicide while protecting a compromised life total while slow-playing 1 mana lands for the next two turns.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-22-2024, 02:24 PM

The fourth white torpor orb creature has arrived
https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/doorkeeperthrull.html
This one has flash and stops artifact etbs too.
Which I think covers Kappa Cannon but I can't think of anything that that triggers on artifacts

PirateKing

01-22-2024, 03:24 PM

Stops protection from One Ring and Living Weapon off Kaldra/Batterskull
Those were the big hits I found

Fox

01-22-2024, 07:31 PM

Stops protection from One Ring and Living Weapon off Kaldra/Batterskull
Those were the big hits I found

Always start with the mana. Chrome Mox.

FTW

01-22-2024, 07:45 PM

When we talk about the pure Volcanic family of decks with novel endpoints and achieving that endpoints better than any other approach and able to compete, you're down to 2 things:
-SnT (Tomb)
-Dreadstill

So the question is always whether or not deviating will increase winrate. One of the biggest issues in pure Volc is that it's the single worst color set in the game at lifegain and trustworthy removal. The Tomb constantly dome'ing the life total requires resets (annihilator 6, draw 7, lifelink/value etb) +/- winning on the spot. You do not have time to derp around with poor color access while blasting your lifetotal with TombNought. There is utility in watching how many turns SnT can stay in a game, and figuring out what you could realistically accomplish with Nought with similar mana builds featuring Tomb in that time (your ability to interact and extend the game won't be much better).

While you may be able to power out a Scroll or Karn quicker, you don't have a game plan before that to fall back on, and it's not like you win b/c these resolved.

Ok, very strong point.

Show and Tell is a much more winning card than Scroll/Karn/Morph/Mask/Torpor. The risk/reward tradeoff for the Tomb lifeloss is much worse than for SneakShow.

In RB there aren't the same tier decks to compete against, there's better removal to bail you out (2B board resets, Molten Collapse), Exsanguinator Cavalry could be playable lifegain for Tomb decks, and there's Troll to fix mana. Could the strategy be viable in RB?

RW of course has the best removal and lifegain, Forth Eorlingas, Timeless Dragon, and Fable (all good uses for Tomb that recoup card advantage or smooth variance). Now this improved Hushbringer creature too. It would be competing against Initiative though. Turn 1 Dungeoneer might be better than Turn 1 Dreadnought.

FTW

01-22-2024, 07:47 PM

Stops protection from One Ring and Living Weapon off Kaldra/Batterskull
Those were the big hits I found

Flash is big because it adds
1W - If an opponent would win the game from empty library, instead that player loses the game.

Hushbringer and Torpor Orb don't have that because they won't go to empty library with one in play, but flash can catch them off guard.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-22-2024, 08:26 PM

I guess with flash it can do the full stifle, combined with gladriels dismissal and do you have a dread and taxes deck?

FTW

01-22-2024, 11:06 PM

Let me know if there's a set of specific scg event where we can find evidence of lasting success by TombNought.
The point is that results exist for one and not the other.

But I never claimed Tier 1 status; you claimed UR Dreadstill was Tier 1. Much stronger claim. Should be more results.

2010 had results, but 2011 Dreadstill had just 2 small event top 8s pre-Misstep and 0 after. On par with fringe brews like Quest for the Holy Relic. That's not Tier 1 anymore.

So yes, you still have to be careful about tier decks fighting TombNought on the 12/12 axis.

There weren't opposing 12/12s to fight. Lack of results wasn't an accident. Stifle+Dreadnought waned because Mental Misstep on Stifle is a 0-mana 2-for-1. Most decks had 4 copies and can play it tapped out. Must be a nightmare to play around. Misstep also prevents curving a proactive 1cmc into T2 Standstill. Misstep also kept combo numbers low, removing your easiest prey.

The tier fatty was Progenitus.

One thing that is clear about this period is that the entire Dreadstill community didn't figure out how to put Mask in their deck vs Misstep, and presumably most went on to other decks never to return (the closest migration is Standstill/Landstill). It's been a few years since I read the entire Dreadstill and UWx Landstill threads, but I do remember discussion of Torpor Orb but not much to any discussion of Mask. I think you have to wait until I pick up the deck (around Khans) to find anyone realizing how important it is to change cmcs.

UWx Landstill was already Tier 1 long before that or Snapcaster. Landstill lost players to Dreadstill around 2009-2010. Maybe some came back in 2011 before Miracles.

I was not in the Dreadstill community or a Dreadstill player, but played MaskNought in the Misstep era. I saw others on the deck too, whether with Tomb or in BG. Clearly people discovered Mask changing cmcs was good in that meta. There are no videos of smaller events and most didn't report results to MtgTop8.

Maybe it was SCG Baltimore coverage that clued players into the tech. If there was a feature video, SCG probably had an article on it. Maybe a brew by Patrick Chapin. That may be where I got the idea from, or from a local player who got it from there. Others would have been inspired by that content too. There might be an archive of past SCG articles...

This is with YouTube and MtgTop8 and SCG searches; so again where can this information be located?
From the rare video...

I'll take another look later today, but at this time it looks like nobody seemed to understand what the cmc of a morph was on the stack, or that there was a spell on the stack in mid-2011

Edit: Discussion on TheSource as far back as 2010, including correct understanding of CMC rules: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17953-Illusionary-Mask-Phyrexian-Dreadnought

UB MaskNought by Patrick Chapin in 2010: https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/innovations-sixty/
Chapin "the Innovator" was the most influential brewer in that era, so if he tried it then many others followed

Kerrigan (the kid in the video) wrote a StarCityGames article on BG MaskNought after his SCG Baltimore feature match, including CMC-dodging Misstep: https://articles.starcitygames.com/articles/g-b-torpor-orb-in-legacy/

BG MaskNought Top 8 SCG Seattle Jul 26th 2011: https://www.channelfireball.com/magic-the-gathering/deck/Illusionary-Orb/279801

MTGSalvation has 2011 threads on Mono B, BW, and UB Phyrexian Dreadnought + Illusionary Mask
ManaDrain and StarcityGames have many articles on Vintage MaskNought back in 2003, which was competitive enough to cause the original ban.

Articles and forums were a more mass-consumed content than YouTube videos back then. Players were aware of the tech from popular platforms. You're looking in the wrong place.

Fox

01-23-2024, 07:26 AM

Dreadstill was winning >200 player events in 2010, to include the end of the year. A month before the unban in June 2010 you have Dreadstill at #2 of 498 players. So in the time period we're discussing from 2010 to Feb 2011 (New Phyrexia release), you're not making a TombNought deck b/c you can only achieve a 39.9% chance of a Nought enabler in your opening hand (4x Mask) with a colorless deck and you had visible success by others with the card Dreadnought tells you to stop what you're doing and copy them. Along comes Feb 2012 and a Tomb deck can go from 39.9% odds of enabler to 65.4% (and importantly 23.2% chance of second copy of enabler in opening hand).

The problem however is that you're not out of the woods and safe from running into other Dreadnought decks (they were posting results in November, before the annual event slow-down over the holidays). You play Torpor Orb and donate the Stifle-effect to hostile 12/12 decks and you will lose, badly. So supposedly we're making this TombNought deck to compete, at a time when we would still be pretty concerned about seeing hostile 12/12s at top tables. You can experience just how polarizing this problem, even today, if you've got an LGS with a resident Dreadnought player and someone tries to play mono-white TorporNought - they're done ever trying that after 1 week; it's one of the absolute worst losses possible in legacy b/c it's so incredibly hopeless when you've basically got two decks playing against you. That type of savage beating gets even worse if you were restricted to colorless.

It's not just the threat of Dreadstill continuing the trend of 2010 and top8'ing multiple hundred person events, it's also still being talked about pretty heavily on this forum (it's still being played). As you state, articles and forums at that time were mass-consumed. We're talking pages ~110 to ~130 of discussion between the Mask unban and Feb 2011, and we're up to ~page 155 by the end of clown legacy where Misstep is banned. There's basically no discussion of Tomb + Nought on the source. Threads: TorporNought (NPH) 4/2011 is 2 pages, TorporNought & All In Torpor Orb 7/2011 combine for 2 pages. There's like no discussion of this Tomb + Nought stuff.

Thank you for digging up the Seattle event in 2011. UR Dreadnought top8s that one, but more importantly in the top16 we see not-TombNought - it's BG again. This is the point I've been making: it's never been TombNought.

The legacy algorithm reigns supreme:
-When we say I want to make Dreadnought the first task is to choose which of the 4 types (or blends) of legacy deck we want to be: Fetchlands or Loam/Mox or Cavern/Vial or Sol land/Chalice. This is the exhaustive list of what you can do in legacy at any point (unless you want to meme with Burn, monoB Reanimator, manaless Dredge, or Oops).
-When you say "I choose the Tomb pathway" we ask if you're blending with Fetchlands (the SnT model we just discussed). When the answer to that question is no, then you're saying "I want to be Stompy."
-Having further classified that you are Tomb subset Stompy, we identify the legacy checklist of Stompy:
#1 Getting to 3 mana is important: we all play Chrome Mox, and most follow that with Guides +/- Lotus Petal
#2 Getting to 3 mana is important: we will play 4+2 Sol Lands (though you can drop to just Tomb if the cmcs downshift like in 8cast/affinity)
#3 Doing something that constricts/pressures opponent on 2 mana is important

^The algorithm is stable over time. You can't do Dreadnought stuff and also complete the Stompy checklist in 2011 or 2024. Staying heavy on 3 mana plans while not playing City of Traitors, so that you can add a suicidal playset of Saga isn't doing you any favors. Whether we talk about 2011 or 2024, we see nothing going on to keep you in the game on 1-2 mana in a deck increasingly self-condemned to this mana point...and we know from SnT that you have maybe 6 turns until dead in this format.

The last thing I'll say on this 2011 stuff is that Fetchland + Nought is what was going on. It was not TombNought. It was never TombNought. It will never be TombNought until they can complete the checklist.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-23-2024, 08:06 AM

Yarus, Roar of the Gods
2RG
Legendary Creature - Centaur Druid
Other creatures you control have haste.

Whenever one or more face-down creatures you control deal combat damage to a player, draw a card.

Whenever a face-down creature you control dies, return it to the battlefield face-down under its owner's control if it's a permanent card. Then turn it face-up.
https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/yarusroarofthegods.html
So: an insurance policy with face-downs, let's your scrolls draw some cards(maybe) while also giving bodies.
And everything gets haste (except itself)
Costs a much as a Minsc and boo

FTW

01-23-2024, 09:48 AM

Dreadstill was winning >200 player events in 2010, to include the end of the year. A month before the unban in June 2010 you have Dreadstill at #2 of 498 players. So in the time period we're discussing from 2010 to Feb 2011 (New Phyrexia release), you're not making a TombNought deck b/c

No, not the time period we're discussing. I've consistently said the 2011 Misstep era (after NPH). Not late 2010 after the unban. Part of that was because Stifle+Dreadnought was bad vs Misstep, also mentioned above.

You keep arguing with strawmen. Instead of wasting text on that, please quote me where I'm even making these claims you're arguing against (that TombNought was good in 2010, that Mask was good in Legacy before Misstep, that TombNought was Tier 1 ever, that Misstep era indicates lasting success beyond that). You make it look like I'm back-peddling. But I never made these claims. It's getting exhausting and ridiculous.

Either quote my claims before you counter or stop saying I'm claiming these things.

Thank you for digging up the Seattle event in 2011. UR Dreadnought top8s that one

That UR list ran only 1 Dreadnought and 0 Standstill: https://www.channelfireball.com/magic-the-gathering/deck/UR-Stiflenought/84588

As you state, articles and forums at that time were mass-consumed. We're talking pages ~110 to ~130 of discussion between the Mask unban and Feb 2011, and we're up to ~page 155 by the end of clown legacy where Misstep is banned. There's basically no discussion of Tomb + Nought on the source. Threads: TorporNought (NPH) 4/2011 is 2 pages, TorporNought & All In Torpor Orb 7/2011 combine for 2 pages. There's like no discussion of this Tomb + Nought stuff.

Yes, looks like only BG MaskNought made it to top tables at SCG 5Ks. Other versions got discussed on other forums & sites, played at smaller events, and saw play online. 4Dogs claimed to cash at SCGs with his build.

You're arguing with so many strawmen. Go back and check what I actually said before about TombNought. It's not what you've been arguing against.

On the other hand, you did make outrageous claims like that no one discovered how Mask worked or considered it for CMC-changing before Khans. Or that UR Dreadstill was Tier 1 when MaskNought saw play. I proved those untrue.

The Tomb/City + Nought strategy was a natural extension of seeing that Mask+Nought was effective in that meta and that blue stompy skipping 1cmc was effective in that meta (Hive Mind). Both had results you can find. Both features were quirks of the meta, which is why I've mentioned only the Misstep era. Colorless acceleration into Mask+Nought was tech in the old Vintage MaskNought, so that idea had already seen competitive play. You could play both Tomb and City in monocolor and you could play proactive 2cmc disruption. The Misstep format was slower: Misstep drove out fast combo and aggro, so maybe there was less penalty for taking that Tomb lifeloss. The DTBs were Uxx midrange, not Delver or aggro.

I did not claim the Tomb version saw widespread competitive play or made sense outside the Misstep era (quote me otherwise). My strongest claim was that it had a good winrate in that meta, playing around what the meta was doing.

^The algorithm is stable over time. You can't do Dreadnought stuff and also complete the Stompy checklist in 2011 or 2024. It will never be TombNought until they can complete the checklist.

For 2024 the checklist could be met by playing spirit guides/Mox, 2 City, and proactive 2 mana plays. RW Initiative is Tier 1 and has no 2cmc disruption. Red Stompy sometimes doesn't run Chalice main. We are seeing an uptick of Tier 1 Stompy with few basics and lacking 2 mana disruption.

Fox

01-23-2024, 09:05 PM

No, not the time period we're discussing. I've consistently said the 2011 Misstep era (after NPH). Not late 2010 after the unban. Part of that was because Stifle+Dreadnought was bad vs Misstep, also mentioned above.

You keep arguing with strawmen. Instead of wasting text on that, please quote me where I'm even making these claims you're arguing against (that TombNought was good in 2010, that Mask was good in Legacy before Misstep, that TombNought was Tier 1 ever, that Misstep era indicates lasting success beyond that). You make it look like I'm back-peddling. But I never made these claims. It's getting exhausting and ridiculous.

Either quote my claims before you counter or stop saying I'm claiming these things.
It's pretty annoying looking up the release date of new phyrexia, I think it was May 2011 upon further review? They keep spamming February in these searches b/c of the All is One set... Anyways Dreadnought is still seeing play off the back of its end of year large event 2010 finishes. It's still showing up on top8 moving into Misstep clown format. So I do see what you're saying about size of events, but you're still in a legacy format that hasn't had a format-warping printing (like Snapcaster) - obviously Misstep was warping. It's just Goyf/CB running rampant the whole time, and people are still playing Nought. That's the point I'm making; at this time you will encounter Dreadnought routinely. It may not be as common as Merfolk or NO Bant, but it would not have been unexpected.

You had to plan accordingly - this is particularly important if your big idea is to enable hostile Noughts with your newly-released Torpor Orb. I think the closest analogy is playing SnT when you have a very high expectation of running into hostile Aluren. Brazenly turning on enemy decks is a really dangerous and careless design space, particularly for a Tomb deck that cannot effectively answer such problems when they inevitably arise.

That UR list ran only 1 Dreadnought and 0 Standstill: https://www.channelfireball.com/magic-the-gathering/deck/UR-Stiflenought/84588

The biggest determinant of whether or not something is Dreadnought is the presence of Dreadnought. Lavamancer, Trinket Mage, SDT, EE, selecting away from Ponder, and the ability to goldfish Stifle (i.e. Dreadnought) are pretty common tropes that occur together Nought decks at the time. There are a lot of issues with the construction, where we don't see Wasteland & Daze supporting Stifle...but that is explained by renaming the CA engine from Standstill to JTMS. It's more Dreadnought than blue soup midrange (like Blade). It's vastly more Dreadnought than RUG Thresh/pre-Delver. You wouldn't call it Blue Moon, but it would be kind of close if we took out Nought/Stifle. It's a Dreadnought list that has UR's trashy removal, which it offsets with aggressively counting to 20 (Lavamancer, Fire//Ice, Bolts) - which is the same concept we use to offset the trashy removal in 2024.

Although it did top8, it's basically starting with a Blade deck -> abandoning white -> adding Nought stuff b/c it's cool I guess? Although it worked in this event, it was not good hybrid deckbuilding, but it was more StifleNought than anything else. That's a pretty fair deckname they labeled it with, even with one Dreadnought.

Yes, looks like only BG MaskNought made it to top tables at SCG 5Ks. Other versions got discussed on other forums & sites, played at smaller events, and saw play online. 4Dogs claimed to cash at SCGs with his build.
Right, but it wasn't TombNought. The logical progression from Dreadnought decks doing well before Misstep is not jumping straight to Tomb. You stay with what works (Fetchlands), and add Mask.
^The list you put forward for red/Tomb Pyrotechnic Performer + Dreadnought has the same problems as a 2011 TombNought. We've discussed the mana issues and moving the advantage bar at 1 & 2 mana points...but on top of that, you're talking about doing this at a time when there has never been a higher chance of running into and turning on a hostile 12/12 strategy.

On the other hand, you did make outrageous claims like that no one discovered how Mask worked or considered it for CMC-changing before Khans. Or that UR Dreadstill was Tier 1 when MaskNought saw play. I proved those untrue.
You've misread. The point I make is that it's a big step to claim TombNought has ever been something we could point to as anything other than a flash in the pan or noncompetitive meme. Now despite the exceedingly poor understanding of Mask at that time, the point to take away is that you take Dreadnought with Fetchlands and add Mask to beat Misstep long before you would ever drop everything you knew that worked (see top8 finishes) to dabble with TombNought, because Mask solved the Misstep's cmc puzzle all by itself.
^As a Dreadstill player, there is no excuse for the paucity of discussion and experimentation with Mask in reaction to Misstep (as recorded in the deck history of the Dreadstill thread). I can understand quitting to Landstill/Standstill after Snapcaster, and I can understand the Standstill quitters after miracles was allowed to ruin the format for years...but man, what a waste of the last best time to play Dreadstill. So when you talk about how TombNought was the best way to navigate the Misstep format, I'm not surprised that info we can locate does not support that assessment.

In the thread about Mask you linked there's a lot of misunderstanding. However in that thread, like the second announcer in the VoD, they eventually get it right. The point I am making however is that I have doubts that players at competitive events could spontaneously arrive at such correct rulings. It clear that there was widespread confusion about whether or not a card was cast when Mask was used. The high risk of illegitimacy is what I'm concerned about. It's already clown legacy with Misstep, and now we've got to ask if complex mechanics were navigated correctly. This is a time in legacy you don't want to extrapolate from - that's the point I'm making.
^As a Dreadstill player: If there are two legacy players who should know what's going on with Mask, it's pilots of decks with Standstill and/or Dreadnought. Instead we saw a VoD where the Dreadnought player overpays for Nought (playing it into Daze, and not needed to ignore Misstep) and the Standstill player just doesn't Daze and straight-up kills themself. When misunderstanding Mask extends all the way to the the players who should know better, I have little faith that things like 3Ball vs Mask were navigated correctly or generating appropriate judge calls by players who had no reason to understand Mask.
^I also don't associate Ancient Tomb with fostering understanding the rules of magic particularly well. However, I do associate Tomb with lock pieces [Chalice, Sphere effects, and especially 3ball] that generate very complex Mask rulings. If there were a TombNought deck, I would have so many more questions about correct navigation of the rules.

The Tomb/City + Nought strategy was a natural extension of seeing that Mask+Nought was effective in that meta and that blue stompy skipping 1cmc was effective in that meta (Hive Mind). Both had results you can find. Both features were quirks of the meta, which is why I've mentioned only the Misstep era. Colorless acceleration into Mask+Nought was tech in the old Vintage MaskNought, so that idea had already seen competitive play. You could play both Tomb and City in monocolor and you could play proactive 2cmc disruption. The Misstep format was slower: Misstep drove out fast combo and aggro, so maybe there was less penalty for taking that Tomb lifeloss. The DTBs were Uxx midrange, not Delver or aggro.
I did not claim the Tomb version saw widespread competitive play or made sense outside the Misstep era (quote me otherwise). My strongest claim was that it had a good winrate in that meta, playing around what the meta was doing.
I agree with the Hive Mind. Those VoDs popped up a few times, they made it into articles, and I can find them in mtgtop8. What I don't see is the TombNought. What I can locate is B/BG Nought, but not TombNought. So where is the data?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-24-2024, 04:56 PM

Fox

01-25-2024, 08:33 AM

https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/hideinplainsight.html
Four cost sorcery coco for cloaks.
Cloakco, if you will.
If it was instant I'd say slam dunk, but at sorcery... Going shields down for a turn at a chance of hitting uro/Dreadnought...
Veiled Ascension is markedly better:
3W Enchant: On upkeep you may manifest top card of deck with ward 2. On ETB all face-downs gain flying via counter. All future face-downs enter with flying via counter.

Still has the mana issues of Mastery of the Unseen, but retains repeatability in a color whose removal is reliable and which can extend the game to such a point. Lifegain, EoT manifest timing, and scaling with higher mana state is lost as compared to Mastery. The issue with cards like these, to include a sorcery with dig 5 manifest twice with ward 2, is that Currency Converter exists. Converter has text with Saga, increases Wasteland mana outlets, decreases mulligans, hates out discard. These other cards require 4 mana and don't get you to 4 mana. At 4 mana, you should be playing Karn or other PW. At 3 mana: Scroll of Fate.

In terms of what you need when cards like this are considered (beyond staying in the game to cast them) includes ability to remove Containment Priest, at baseline.

In terms of redefining zone of value to top of deck as #1 priority in deckbuilding, that need went away after the format was liberated from the total hand destruction of Hymn and Counterbalance. Other decks ofc exist in times of total hand destruction, and the need for speed dictates that you can't just flood out on 4-drops. Mastery worked at that time due to 2 cmc, card type enchantment, and E-Tutor trick removing risk of death by do-nothing flood. While magic has changed since that terrible time in legacy, you still want a top-of-library value engine to be white (removal, Solitude) and enchantment/artifact (playable as 1-of due to E Tutor). Green sorcery without repeatable manifesting dead on arrival.

Until the mana cost becomes more competitive, you're basically playing Vance's Blasting Cannons/Outpost Siege at a time when you could get the same value while constricting other decks' play patterns (i.e. Karn passive) or threatening PW ultimate.

Clark Kant

01-26-2024, 04:47 AM

https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/vannifarevolvedenigma.jpg
Here's a 4 cost scroll of fate user, choosing to pump the face-down team, or cloak a Dreadnought

Very cool card. Worth trying as a 1 of in the simic lists that play 3-4 Uro alongside Dressnought.

Time to give a good long look at manifest/mask enablers again...
https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/pyrotechnicperformer.jpg

Excellent find. It takes the deck in a very different direction but as FTW pointed out, Ancient Tomb Nought lists have finally hit a critical mass of spells to make Tomb worth playing.

The fourth white torpor orb creature has arrived
https://mythicspoiler.com/mkm/cards/doorkeeperthrull.html
This one has flash and stops artifact etbs too.
Which I think covers Kappa Cannon but I can't think of anything that that triggers on artifacts

This is by far the card Im most excited about. Stopping Kappa, Chrome Mox, The One Ring’s Time Walk, Kaldra in addition to stopping everything that Dress Down stops including Doomsday is massive and really makes brewing a UW or Bant Dressnought list incorporating it the next logical step to take.

Bant Dressnought 2024

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3-4 Stifle
1-2 Lorien Revealed
1 Daze/Misdirection (Spice Slot)

3-4 Prismatic Ending
3-4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3-4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2-4 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Brazen Borrower

3-4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1-2 Tundra
0-1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

I believe the above list would be extremely effective and easily rack up 5-0s and top 8s at the hands of a skilled player like BoshNRoll. The sideboard is what Im not sure about as I can’t think of matchups that the above list would be weak to and should focus on.

Fox

01-26-2024, 08:02 AM

Play Scroll of Fate. It costs 3 colorless. It lets you play against Blood Moon and Chalice. It lets you dump any card into play face-down at instant speed.
Vannifar requires 4 mana with 2 color pips. It makes a face-down at sorcery speed *if* you can make if from main phase 1 to combat.
^I must be missing something - what are you guys seeing here? It costs more...and it's worse...and these cantrip cartel approaches to Dreadnought have massive Chalice/Moon liability. How are you planning on casting this?
---
Concerning Pyrotechnic Performer and taking a different direction, UR is already pre-built to use this. I will have to remove 2-3 cards, and add 2-3 of these 3/2s. My list will be 72-73 of 75 cards identical. Tomb count: 0.
---
Concerning Torpor Orb dude, they're really bad in multiples and they make it very easy for opposing strategies to either endlessly Karakas Uro or cleanly 1-for-1. Against Doomsday, you have at minimum like 85% winrate simply because you play Dreadnought (Stifle, Dress Down) - Doomsday is not a credible threat, it's Dreadnought food.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-26-2024, 10:16 AM

Very cool card. Worth trying as a 1 of in the simic lists that play 3-4 Uro alongside Dressnought.

Excellent find. It takes the deck in a very different direction but as FTW pointed out, Ancient Tomb Nought lists have finally hit a critical mass of spells to make Tomb worth playing.

This is by far the card Im most excited about. Stopping Kappa, Chrome Mox, The One Ring’s Time Walk, Kaldra in addition to stopping everything that Dress Down stops including Doomsday is massive and really makes brewing a UW or Bant Dressnought list incorporating it the next logical step to take.

Bant Dressnought 2024

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3-4 Stifle
1-2 Lorien Revealed
1 Daze/Misdirection (Spice Slot)

3-4 Prismatic Ending
3-4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3-4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2-4 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Brazen Borrower

3-4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1-2 Tundra
0-1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

I believe the above list would be extremely effective and easily rack up 5-0s and top 8s at the hands of a skilled player like BoshNRoll. The sideboard is what Im not sure about as I can’t think of matchups that the above list would be weak to and should focus on.
My issue is every time I go to build something in legacy I feel compelled to start with Bowmasters, especially if I'm playing cantrips so I can Bowmasters the opposing Bowmasters.
Which means I start in black. Now I look at the new cards I want to try: there's performer, who I think is the best addition, Hide in Plain Sight which I think despite being sorcery is actually amazing, which means now I'm starting in BRG.
But then there the stompy red list I want to do.
Or, now with cryptic coat I want to go ur, and I'm stuck with decision paralysis because I just didn't have the time to build all these and test them

Clark Kant

01-26-2024, 04:48 PM

Fox

01-27-2024, 03:19 PM

Bowmasters is so prevalent in the format that its pretty easy to play around. Its also a boon that when we leave up any fetchland along with another mana source, your opponents automatically assume youre holding a Bowmasters and delay playing their cantrips. They often instead opt to play something that walks right into the Dress Down/Thrull that you actually were holding.

Doorkeeper Thrull is way better than Torpor Orb. Being able to flash it in response to your opponents play is what makes it so amazing. Flash is why Dress Down is such a potent card and regularly ends up as a 2 of in controllish decks that dont play Dreadnought

Yes Thrull is not great in multiples but thats just because it sticks around unlike Dress Down so it permanently shuts down Initiative cards, Monarch cards, cantrip creatures, evoke elementals, just about everything in D&T, living weapons and dozens of other format staples. It even makes Bowmasters much weaker. Doorkeeper Thrull is going to be a multiformat staple due to how many cards it shuts off in response to your opponents play. Opponents cant just wait around for a way to remove it before executing their game plan like they can with Orb.

Aside from Thrull, the only blockers you play are a 6/6 and a 12/12 that only show up in the endgame, so your opponent frequently sees an empty board and attacks with Bowmasters. Thrulls flying lifelinking body that can flash in to catch an attacking Bowmasters by surprise and also doesnt die to a single Bowmasters ping is a very nice bonus. I would absolutely play 2 at a minimum in Bant Uro Dressnought lists.
The reason why not-Dreadnought decks play Dress Down is that they all used to sideboard Torpor Orb b/c they have a hopeless matchup vs Thassa. Full stop. Yes, Dress Down does other things but they play it b/c it cycles - that means they can maindeck pseudo-Torpor Orb without having Torpor Orb x2 in their SB, so that they have an axis of interaction with Thassa.

When you bring up these specialized scenarios with flash Torpor Magus, it's important to remember that these are not generally-applicable scenarios. This card has a high risk of having no text and also collapsing any chance you have at recouping CA (Uro will get 1-for-1'd or endlessly hit by Karakas). Add to that the fact that Torpor Orb effects do not get better in multiples, thus resulting in increased dead draws (aka variance).

What you are not quite seeing is that you need CA to enable self 2-for-1 strategies. When that CA is put onto green with Uro, you now have a UG deck which cannot adequately interact. Invariably people pair this problematic color pair with Ponder/Brainstorm...but then they get called on that construction by Bowmaster...so they further compromise their manabase with a 3rd color such that they can focus on dealing with Bowmaster. In doing this we enter the death spiral where Chalice and Moon are absolutely devastating to manabases held together by cantrip cartel. The real kicker here though is that stopping the Bowmaster ETB does not strip the passive - so you still haven't solved the problem and unlocked the cantrips...and now you're even more invested in not having a way to change Dreadnought's cmc to not being countered by Chalice on 1.

In the larger competitive scene, what happens is that you end up with very few good matchups. So unless those matchups are wildly overrepresented (like 30% Delver challenge meta), you don't have an intrinsic source of relevance in this format.

FTW

01-27-2024, 03:54 PM

Doorkeeper Thrull is way better than Torpor Orb. Being able to flash it in response to your opponents play is what makes it so amazing. Flash is why Dress Down is such a potent card and regularly ends up as a 2 of in controllish decks that dont play Dreadnought

Doorkeeper Thrull's also way better than Squire. But Dreadnought already wasn't playing either Torpor Orb or Squire (or Hushbringer). Blue's enablers are better. 4x Stifle 4x Dress Down already counter enemy ETB triggered abilities and pitch to Force.

Reasons to consider Doorkeeper might be if you go UW and want more copies of Dress Down but less copies of Stifle, e.g.:
-More hate for enemy creatures
-Ambush small attackers like Bowmasters
-Midrange deck without Wasteland/Daze/Stifle mana denial plan
-Avoid 2-for-1s with Stifle+Dreadnought
-White count for Solitude

White is a good color to be in because of the premium removal, planeswalkers, and board reset. You lack a secondary threat (probably can't afford to splash UUGG Uro) but could play a more controlling game with Dreadnought finisher and Scroll of Fate.

FTW

01-27-2024, 03:56 PM

It's pretty annoying looking up the release date of new phyrexia, I think it was May 2011 upon further review? They keep spamming February in these searches b/c of the All is One set... Anyways Dreadnought is still seeing play off the back of its end of year large event 2010 finishes. It's still showing up on top8 moving into Misstep clown format. So I do see what you're saying about size of events, but you're still in a legacy format that hasn't had a format-warping printing (like Snapcaster) - obviously Misstep was warping. It's just Goyf/CB running rampant the whole time, and people are still playing Nought. That's the point I'm making; at this time you will encounter Dreadnought routinely. It may not be as common as Merfolk or NO Bant, but it would not have been unexpected.

You had to plan accordingly - this is particularly important if your big idea is to enable hostile Noughts with your newly-released Torpor Orb.

New Phyrexia release: May 13, 2011
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/New_Phyrexia

Mental Misstep ban: Sep 20, 2011
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/feature/explanation-september-2011-br-changes-2011-09-20-0

Misstep era was May-Sept 2011.

Dreadstill was Tier 1 in 2010, but saw a huge dip in play by 2011. mtgtop8 2011 Dreadnought: https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?f=LE&meta=61&a=85

Most 2011 Dreadnought results are before NPH. Stiflenought/Dreadstill already saw a decline in early 2011 leading up to NPH. I don't know why - I wasn't in the Dreadstill community - but it was already on the decline and not a DTB.

Mid Apr 2011 - mid Oct 2011 (bigger than the Misstep era): only 3 results.
1 links to Hive Mind (error). The others run 1 Dreadnought, like the SCG Seattle deck. They rely on Trinket Mage to find 1-of Dreadnought, so Torpor Orb is not enabling their 12/12s.

My memory from that era could be wrong, but the data shows it too. Stifle+Dreadnought disappeared during the Misstep era. There weren't opposing Dreadnoughts across the table.

Although it did top8, it's basically starting with a Blade deck -> abandoning white -> adding Nought stuff b/c it's cool I guess? Although it worked in this event, it was not good hybrid deckbuilding, but it was more StifleNought than anything else. That's a pretty fair deckname they labeled it with, even with one Dreadnought.

My point was that your Torpor Orb deck is not getting out-12/12ed by a deck with 1 Dreadnought. They produce max 1 Dreadnought and probably can't find it with Trinket Mage turned off.

Right, but it wasn't TombNought. The logical progression from Dreadnought decks doing well before Misstep is not jumping straight to Tomb. You stay with what works (Fetchlands), and add Mask.
^The list you put forward for red/Tomb Pyrotechnic Performer + Dreadnought has the same problems as a 2011 TombNought. We've discussed the mana issues and moving the advantage bar at 1 & 2 mana points...but on top of that, you're talking about doing this at a time when there has never been a higher chance of running into and turning on a hostile 12/12 strategy.

Yeah, the red list I proposed earlier was not good. It was a draft thought experiment and has obvious flaws you raised (note it was less than 60 cards, so there is room for advantage at 2 cmc or Mox/SSG acceleration).

Bg MaskNought was the first logical progression and saw the most competitive play. Turning on hostile 12/12s was rare, see above.

Tomb is a later progression from there & Hive Mind, seeing that skipping 1cmc helped.

I cannot find an old list to get an exact build, so I'm speaking from rough heuristics. The key difference in that meta was you could afford to play Chalice @ 1 and Dreadnought in the same deck, so you could run 6-8 Sol Lands + Mox and push the advantage bar on 2 cmc (unlike the red build). Normally you can't run Dreadnought and Chalice together. In my own words "nonbo". But the Misstep meta was hostile to 1 cmcs. Stifle+Dreadnought was not a favorable plan. If Dreadnought is the only 1 cmc in the deck and Mask cheats you around the CMC, then you could actually play Chalice and Dreadnought together. You could use Tomb/City to skip ahead on CMCs in a meta where you already want to avoid 1 cmc: dodging enemy Misstep, your own Chalice, and enemy CounterTop. It was never a better time to avoid 1 cmc.

It was not the most common version of MaskNought (i.e. you expect more Bg results). It was more of a Stompy-Mask hybrid, but it was a thing that was played and worked in that meta. That's all I claimed. It worked because you wanted to do things like skip 1 cmc, cut Stifle, and play 2cmc colorless enablers. Tomb helps that plan.

You've misread. The point I make is that it's a big step to claim TombNought has ever been something we could point to as anything other than a flash in the pan or noncompetitive meme.

Only pointed to it as a flash in the pan. The original comment was an aside. Misstep era was introduced as the exception, not the rule.

It wasn't a reason to play TombNought now. No extrapolation. If you think otherwise, quote where I said so.

Now despite the exceedingly poor understanding of Mask at that time, the point to take away is that you take Dreadnought with Fetchlands and add Mask to beat Misstep long before you would ever drop everything you knew that worked (see top8 finishes) to dabble with TombNought, because Mask solved the Misstep's cmc puzzle all by itself.
^As a Dreadstill player, there is no excuse for the paucity of discussion and experimentation with Mask in reaction to Misstep (as recorded in the deck history of the Dreadstill thread). I can understand quitting to Landstill/Standstill after Snapcaster, and I can understand the Standstill quitters after miracles was allowed to ruin the format for years...but man, what a waste of the last best time to play Dreadstill.

Why didn't the Dreadstill community experiment with it? Mask also has a good interaction with Fathom Seer (playable draw engine in those days).

So when you talk about how TombNought was the best way to navigate the Misstep format, I'm not surprised that info we can locate does not support that assessment.

Never said that. Quote me where you think I did.

All I said was that A) Mask and B ) blue stompy were (separately) competitive ways to navigate the Misstep format. Results support both.

I said TombNought was a progression from those 2 ideas. The strongest claim I made was that it had a good win rate in that warped meta, not that it was the best solution or most popular.

In the thread about Mask you linked there's a lot of misunderstanding. However in that thread, like the second announcer in the VoD, they eventually get it right. The point I am making however is that I have doubts that players at competitive events could spontaneously arrive at such correct rulings. It clear that there was widespread confusion about whether or not a card was cast when Mask was used. The high risk of illegitimacy is what I'm concerned about. It's already clown legacy with Misstep, and now we've got to ask if complex mechanics were navigated correctly. This is a time in legacy you don't want to extrapolate from - that's the point I'm making.
^As a Dreadstill player: If there are two legacy players who should know what's going on with Mask, it's pilots of decks with Standstill and/or Dreadnought. Instead we saw a VoD where the Dreadnought player overpays for Nought (playing it into Daze, and not needed to ignore Misstep) and the Standstill player just doesn't Daze and straight-up kills themself. When misunderstanding Mask extends all the way to the the players who should know better, I have little faith that things like 3Ball vs Mask were navigated correctly or generating appropriate judge calls by players who had no reason to understand Mask.
^I also don't associate Ancient Tomb with fostering understanding the rules of magic particularly well. However, I do associate Tomb with lock pieces [Chalice, Sphere effects, and especially 3ball] that generate very complex Mask rulings. If there were a TombNought deck, I would have so many more questions about correct navigation of the rules.

Kerrigan's SCG feature match coverage was June 2011. In those days an SCG feature match & article got seen by a large audience (content was rare then, not saturated like today), so a large part of the Legacy community was aware of the tech and rules for several months of the Misstep era from July 2011 to the Sept 20th ban.

Before that, players may have been unaware how Mask worked. But that video and article would have brought awareness. Kerrigan explains the correct CMC rules in the article: https://articles.starcitygames.com/a...orb-in-legacy/

TheSource thread has the correct rules too: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...an-Dreadnought.
That thread was 2010, just after the unban, before Mask saw any play, so at that point players were still figuring the card out. Future players had the answer a quick search away. Gatherer has it too.

A Level 2 Judge should know too. You just had to call a judge.

Overall the potential for rules violations was high, potentially inflating the win rate at smaller paper events. That was a feature of all paper Magic back then though. Sometimes you won because opponent drew too many cards off Brainstorm and you caught it, not because your deck was better. That could happen even without a complex card like Illusionary Mask. You know how many players would try to cast Force of Will for 0 through Trinisphere? Rules errors might have inflated Mask win %, yes. But honestly just being attentive to opponent's errors and not making your own added 5-10% to win rate regardless of what deck you were on. That's why the same players made the top tables over and over.

Fox

01-28-2024, 09:20 AM

Doorkeeper Thrull's also way better than Squire. But Dreadnought already wasn't playing either Torpor Orb or Squire (or Hushbringer). Blue's enablers are better. 4x Stifle 4x Dress Down already counter enemy ETB triggered abilities and pitch to Force.

Reasons to consider Doorkeeper might be if you go UW and want more copies of Dress Down but less copies of Stifle, e.g.:
-More hate for enemy creatures
-Ambush small attackers like Bowmasters
-Midrange deck without Wasteland/Daze/Stifle mana denial plan
-Avoid 2-for-1s with Stifle+Dreadnought
-White count for Solitude

White is a good color to be in because of the premium removal, planeswalkers, and board reset. You lack a secondary threat (probably can't afford to splash UUGG Uro) but could play a more controlling game with Dreadnought finisher and Scroll of Fate.
On Uro, the threat of a 6/6 isn't what matters so much as CA and ability to re-cast with minimal limitations. Doesn't matter what colors you choose, you have to recoup CA.

The bigger issue with white is that it didn't get DRC and is not an effective colorset for Saga/Mycosynth. White isn't the best for CA, and you have to run March of Otherworldly Light over Ending that tops out at 2c (the upside is that this one-shots Saga). It's generally worse against PWs than Pyroblast.

The upside of white is cycling for mana (Timeless Dragon), however Lorien is a better card as you can keep 1-landers. The problem however is that a 1x Currency Converter isn't something you can see enough of with without Saga to helping to find it.

As compared to red, the total mana requirement of white is a lot higher, another place where Saga isn't going to help you. The color pip requirements are heavier than UR, so Hall of Storm Giants is still a better fit in a manland slot...but even this was displaced by Otawara.

Circling back to CA, it's still Standstill and later on Lorien operates as additional copies of Standstill. While game actions are abundant, game action threats have dropped (manland to Otawara, trim Dragon fraction into Lorien). All these factors create a problematic scenario for gameplan progression - enemy PWs can sneak through the cracks.

There are massive benefits to UW however. Karn/Teferi is an incredible combo, but keyword haste on Minsc does pose problems (however Minsc use is down). Verdict is the perfect card for a Dreadnought deck. Teferi + Scroll of Fate is pretty much unbeatable (don't have to chew through removal). Karn keeps re-finding Dreadnoughts, guns down basics (while Stifle/Wasteland hits the nonbasics + Crucible wish), and kills Chalice. There are so many slots that kill or ignore Chalice that our favorite hostile opener is Chalice on 1 (which we let resolve).

While Dreadnought is very well supported by this type of hard control, it is decidedly not trying to win with damage. The 12/12s are only really there to combat combo and things like Post. This deck does well when we generate pseudo-CA by not turning on hostile kill spells (so Dress Down is at most a 2x b/c making sorcery speed threats is poor play vs removal-based decks).
---
Concerning the new Torpor Orb guy, it's just going to die to removal and lock you into playing Noughts in a main phase...and we already have Torpor Orb in the SB, which means it's in hand with a Karn. I'd still rather have a card that gets me to 3 mana and denies monarch by stripping Horse Aer Lingus [Forth] 2/2s of their keyword haste (i.e. another copy of Dress Down).

I think there are too many mana issues and moving parts to engage in Saga find Map find Lotus Field -> now I can switch March back to Ending stuff. That said, Karn wish Hex Parasite + Saga find Parasite is a novel way to attack hostile PWs. Just a little too cute until wotc bans Tomb, Echo, Grief, and Beans (this is unlikely).

FTW

01-28-2024, 12:08 PM

On Uro, the threat of a 6/6 isn't what matters so much as CA and ability to re-cast with minimal limitations. Doesn't matter what colors you choose, you have to recoup CA.

You don't have to recoup CA if Thrull is replacing copies of Stifle instead of Dress Down. If you stay on 4 Dress Down and pivot away from Stifle, you avoid the structural 2-for-1s and don't need the CA as badly.

Between cutting Stifle and no DRC, you lose a lot of speed, so you can't really be a racing deck like UR. But UW was never good at racing anyway. White does play better control.

Why is white not an effective colorset for Saga? It doesn't do 1-card Delirium for DRC, but it does do Map into Karakas/Hall of Heliod/Lotus Field? Also 1-of Currency Converter.

The color pips don't seem like a problem if your mana looks like:

//Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Otawara, Soaring City
2 Urza's Saga
1-2 other lands

//Cyclers:
2 Lorien Revealed
2 Timeless Dragon
1 Currency Converter
1 Expedition Map

That should be stable access to colors.

Meanwhile you don't need redundant Thrulls and your lategame plan seems strong

//Enablers: 8
4 Dress Down
2 Doorkeeper Thrull
2 Scroll of Fate

//PWs: 4
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Karn, the Great Creator

If the main PW of concern is Minsc, Hydroblast answers that. Hydroblast also counters Forth Eorlingas even better than Dress Down. You lose removal for enemy Teferi & Narset though.

You lose Prismatic Ending, but in the age of The One Ring and Kaldra Compleat 3-color Ending falls short anyway, at least March can answer them.

Is the Thrull really that bad? It does die to removal but also Stifles opponent's triggers (+1 card) and can ambush a Bowmaster to get it off the board. Combined with well-timed gravehate you can eat a DRC too.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-28-2024, 03:21 PM

https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/status/1751668668776210752?t=7SvgWjy6oh2v0RPhE-V5Fw&s=19
I just don't think I can pass this up
So I'm going to play br with the sol lands

FTW

01-28-2024, 05:22 PM

https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/status/1751668668776210752?t=7SvgWjy6oh2v0RPhE-V5Fw&s=19
I just don't think I can pass this up
So I'm going to play br with the sol lands

Yeah it is a great turn 2 kill. Why Monolith? Mox or SSG does the same but can also fix red.

The kill itself is high variance so you should have a good fair plan too.

What are you playing in black? Discard? Kroxa? Molten Collapse seems strong.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-28-2024, 06:01 PM

Monolith gives you up to seven mana turn 2, a mox gives 5
Black for Bowmasters

Fox

01-28-2024, 07:24 PM

You don't have to recoup CA if Thrull is replacing copies of Stifle instead of Dress Down. If you stay on 4 Dress Down and pivot away from Stifle, you avoid the structural 2-for-1s and don't need the CA as badly.

Why is white not an effective colorset for Saga? It doesn't do 1-card Delirium for DRC, but it does do Map into Karakas/Hall of Heliod/Lotus Field? Also 1-of Currency Converter.

The color pips don't seem like a problem if your mana looks like:

//Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Otawara, Soaring City
2 Urza's Saga
1-2 other lands

//Cyclers:
2 Lorien Revealed
2 Timeless Dragon
1 Currency Converter
1 Expedition Map

That should be stable access to colors.

Meanwhile you don't need redundant Thrulls and your lategame plan seems strong

//Enablers: 8
4 Dress Down
2 Doorkeeper Thrull
2 Scroll of Fate

//PWs: 4
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Karn, the Great Creator

If the main PW of concern is Minsc, Hydroblast answers that. Hydroblast also counters Forth Eorlingas even better than Dress Down. You lose removal for enemy Teferi & Narset though.

You lose Prismatic Ending, but in the age of The One Ring and Kaldra Compleat 3-color Ending falls short anyway, at least March can answer them.

Is the Thrull really that bad? It does die to removal but also Stifles opponent's triggers (+1 card) and can ambush a Bowmaster to get it off the board. Combined with well-timed gravehate you can eat a DRC too.
In UW you don't really play creatures or win by damage, so making Noughts at sorcery speed is not useful (there's basically a 100% chance their hand is multiple kill spells). This is what limits Dress Down to 2x. Stifle is there to pick fights we don't care about, rather than making Noughts. The goal is Scroll on EoT protected by Teferi passive - this is how we beat removal. Once Karn is in the mix you use Dreadnought looping and 2/2 lands [Scroll] to discard usually about 8x kill spells; otherwise you wipe all their lands and only then make Dreadnoughts vs a hand of mono-kill spells they can't cast.
---
Saga contaminating an opening hand is pretty rough for UW due to higher cmcs and color pips. We're not going to overload removal like UR can. If I'm choosing between a Saga and a Wasteland, I'm going to choose Wasteland in UW. When it comes to land totals, white has to play a little lower than UR (no Spikefield) and lower than UBx's CTP (that's Landstill colors, not playable with Nought). White spell lands are trash, and I can't go above 2x Otawara. In the 21-22 range you can't afford to be drawing Saga (Wasteland is really important, and you have Sevinne's target Wasteland and Karn wish Crucible) - damage from constructs & Nought isn't the currency of UW, absolute mana denial is. There is a maximal amount of colorless lands UW can get away with. Wasteland wins out here.
---
There's this very strange tendency for people to notice that Bowmaster is a huge problem for mana bases held together by yolo-cantripping [Xerox], but then think it's our problem too. You really shouldn't be using a sketchy manabase that demands mulling away your CA. You know this because 2-for-1'ing yourself does not lead to a large enough hand for sculpting with 1-for-1s to matter (particularly when such deck construction creates glaringly massive weakness to Ancient Tomb). If you want to kill Bowmasters, you use Shark Typhoon and a real mana base. A whole 2 damage per turn is not really meaningful, so as long as you have the ability to progress your mana without creating a massive orc army problem for yourself, you just take your time. Ideally you would have Spikefield Hazard and the ability to delete Bowmasters with land slots, but you're not UR so you have to get more creative and construct the deck to not be affected by the passive and have wraths.

As printed Doorkeeper Thrull lacks hexproof, so I don't trust it to complete a trade with Bowmaster in the slightest. When it inevitably fails, it's not like I can fire off a Brainstorm with their kill spell on the stack - it doesn't stop the passive. If you're building into loses to Bowmaster, Thrull won't get you out of that situation.
---
Concerning Torpor Orb effects things that we need to see in addition are:
-Hexproof/Shroud
-protection from white plus regenerate/indestructible
-creatures and PWs cannot use activated abilities
-casting spells cannot generate triggers (Chalice, Counterbalance, Beans, Storm, Ulamog trigger, DRC trigger, cascade, etc)

The flying, flash, lifelink, hits artifacts, stops death triggers stuff just isn't good enough.

FTW

01-29-2024, 07:21 AM

Monolith gives you up to seven mana turn 2, a mox gives 5
Black for Bowmasters

What do you need 7 mana for? All you need is at 1-5 mana.

Unless you're a Voltaic Key deck (Karn Forge, Paradox combo), Monolith is 1-time ramp like SSG. You don't need 1-time Monolith unless ramping into a big play like Peer into the Abyss. Dreadnought shouldn't need that.

T1 Tomb/City + SSG/Mox -> Scroll
End of turn Manifest Dreadnought
T2 land, Pyrotechnic Performer, flip 12/12 & attack -> 24 damage

No need to store up 7 mana. But red Mox helps for Pyrotechnic Performer and other colored cards.

Fox

01-29-2024, 07:36 AM

What do you need 7 mana for? All you need is at 1-5 mana.

Unless you're a Voltaic Key deck (Karn Forge, Paradox combo), Monolith is 1-time ramp like SSG. You don't need 1-time Monolith unless ramping into a big play like Peer into the Abyss. Dreadnought shouldn't need that.

T1 Tomb/City + SSG/Mox -> Scroll
End of turn Manifest Dreadnought
T2 land, Pyrotechnic Performer, flip 12/12 & attack -> 24 damage

No need to store up 7 mana. But red Mox helps for Pyrotechnic Performer and other colored cards.

The odds of that in an opening hand is pretty low. That's a lot of 39.9% chances you have to roll together...and if you don't roll that, a simple Wasteland would be pretty devastating.

FTW

01-29-2024, 07:38 AM

In UW you don't really play creatures or win by damage, so making Noughts at sorcery speed is not useful (there's basically a 100% chance their hand is multiple kill spells).

Can't Currency Converter tokens, Scroll manifesting lands, and Saga constructs tilt that balance though to drain their removal? Saga into Converter helps that plan.

I suppose Landstill does that plan even better (+ Shark Typhoon, - the 2-for-1 12/12), but can't Dreadnought try to overload their removal too?

Why not have Dress Down at 4x? It's not just for sorcery speed Noughts. It's often 1.5 cards by Stifling opponent's card advantage creature & cantripping.

For instant Noughts, the cards I posted do build towards Scroll + Teferi endgame.

Does Saga hurt opening hand mana even as a 2-of, even with 4 colorless land cyclers (fix from colorless) and turning into Map/Converter? Wasteland is also colorless and puts you back a land. Don't see how that leads to more stable mana.

There's this very strange tendency for people to notice that Bowmaster is a huge problem for mana bases held together by yolo-cantripping [Xerox], but then think it's our problem too. You really shouldn't be using a sketchy manabase that demands mulling away your CA. You know this because 2-for-1'ing yourself does not lead to a large enough hand for sculpting with 1-for-1s to matter (particularly when such deck construction creates glaringly massive weakness to Ancient Tomb). If you want to kill Bowmasters, you use Shark Typhoon and a real mana base.

What's sketchy about that manabase? It should hit UW colors easily.

It's not that Doorkeeper is ambushing some dangerous lethal creature, but that you're getting a 2-for-1 by ambushing an x/1 or Stifling their ETB trigger and then drawing a removal spell. Even if you don't enable a Nought, you traded positively unless they have removal open when you put Thrull on the stack.

Shark Typhoon is a better ambusher though, true.

FTW

01-29-2024, 07:41 AM

The odds of that in an opening hand is pretty low. That's a lot of 39.9% chances you have to roll together...and if you don't roll that, a simple Wasteland would be pretty devastating.

The deck needs a fair backup plan. It can't be the only plan. Point was that Monolith ramping to 7 isn't needed.

Scam has similar percentages is still Tier 1. As long as the deck has a reasonable fair plan, it's OK to only have the big play some fraction of the time.

To avoid losing to Wasteland, need more low mana plays (i.e. ignore the deck I posted before, start from broader picture).

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-29-2024, 09:38 AM

What do you need 7 mana for? All you need is at 1-5 mana.

Unless you're a Voltaic Key deck (Karn Forge, Paradox combo), Monolith is 1-time ramp like SSG. You don't need 1-time Monolith unless ramping into a big play like Peer into the Abyss. Dreadnought shouldn't need that.

T1 Tomb/City + SSG/Mox -> Scroll
End of turn Manifest Dreadnought
T2 land, Pyrotechnic Performer, flip 12/12 & attack -> 24 damage

No need to store up 7 mana. But red Mox helps for Pyrotechnic Performer and other colored cards.

the 7 mana is for when you don't have these elements.

FTW

01-29-2024, 10:10 AM

the 7 mana is for when you don't have these elements.

What do you need 7 mana for?

4 is enough for The One Ring or Karn, the Great Creator.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-29-2024, 10:38 AM

What do you need 7 mana for?

4 is enough for The One Ring or Karn, the Great Creator.

What if I want to also cast the thing I want after t1r or karn? Not of this world
Realistically, it's 6 mana (to ritual's 4) since you need a second sol ring and 6 mana is a much more obvious break point which casts: Mask+Eater of Days, Wurmcoil Engine, Karn + Orb, mask+2 myr superions, chromatic orrey, etnerity vessle, Kaldra, Big Karn, Vanguard Supressor + 1 squad, Scarian Infultrator + Squad 2, Endbringer, Battleball, Spine of Ish Sah, Staff of Nin, Phyrexian Devourer

FTW

01-29-2024, 10:56 AM

Going 4x Scroll 4x Mask would be interesting because you could reliably make facedown creatures for Pyrotechnic Performer.

But Mask's flip is not a game action you can control at any time, Mask makes the 2/2 at sorcery speed, and it casts the card - so it's better if the new set has some good Manifest/Disguise enabler.

Mask is also redundant in multiples (Scroll turns extras into 2/2s) so it may help to have card filtering like Fable or Daretti to convert extra Masks into useful cards, or to tutor for it (Karn, Goblin Engineer).

Edit: Other cheap creatures in RB you could consider cheating out
Vexing Devil
Death's Shadow
Hunted Horror
Myr Superion
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

Fox

01-29-2024, 12:25 PM

But Mask's flip is not a game action you can control at any time
Controlling the flip is the easy part. If you have keyword morph or megamorph or disguise/cloak (whatever they call the new one), it works like you want it to.

For all other creatures without that text printed on the face-down side, you merely have to tap them. This is trivial with Survivors' Encampment, but the biggest issue there is the lack of Desert-Fetchlands or competitively costed keyword desertcycling. Springleaf Drum is not a playable card.

It is important to remember that you can announce a split second spell -> pay by tapping a flipping a face-down and protect their trigger with split second. You can also flip a morph/megamorph/disguise-cloak/manifest of you have extra mana, with split second spell holding down the stack.

FTW

01-29-2024, 01:18 PM

What happens when you play Valki, God of Lies facedown for 2 mana in paper Magic? Does the piece of cardboard grow a 4th dimension?

Fox

01-29-2024, 02:14 PM

What happens when you play Valki, God of Lies facedown for 2 mana in paper Magic? Does the piece of cardboard grow a 4th dimension?
You have a 2/2 morph or manifest. Hidden under that is an unplayable 2/1. Casting it as morph or manifesting will delete the entire text box. You cannot choose to morph/manifest the back face of a card with 2 sides.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-29-2024, 02:15 PM

What happens when you play Valki, God of Lies facedown for 2 mana in paper Magic? Does the piece of cardboard grow a 4th dimension?

Face-down, like tapped, is a status. Anything can be turned face down. Even things with non-magic backs. This isn't transforming, and when turned face up it will be valki. Never the back side because the back side isn't knowable to mask or scroll.

This is a rule change, btw. It used to be DFCs couldn't be face down.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-29-2024, 02:18 PM

If you want to see fourth plus dimensions there's alchemy cards with 6 different backs, man specialization was weird

FTW

01-29-2024, 03:00 PM

You have a 2/2 morph or manifest. Hidden under that is an unplayable 2/1. Casting it as morph or manifesting will delete the entire text box. You cannot choose to morph/manifest the back face of a card with 2 sides.

In paper Magic, not online. What do you physically do with the card to place it "face down" but not show as Tibalt? It defies the physics of a "card game".

They might as well introduce a keyword ability with "Roll target nonland permanent. If the result is a 3: ability". It could be implemented in the Comp Rules and on MTGO in a functional way, but makes as much sense in paper.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-29-2024, 04:01 PM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

01-29-2024, 04:02 PM

How was it in your deck? Your hand?

Fox

01-29-2024, 05:18 PM

In paper Magic, not online. What do you physically do with the card to place it "face down" but not show as Tibalt? It defies the physics of a "card game".

They might as well introduce a keyword ability with "Roll target nonland permanent. If the result is a 3: ability". It could be implemented in the Comp Rules and on MTGO in a functional way, but makes as much sense in paper.

I mean the bigger problem is that the back side of a DFC is technically supposed to be visible in your hand or top of deck. Indicator cards are used because they have an official card back iirc. Otherwise, without sleeves, presence of DFCs would be public knowledge...and then you'd have issue with predicting when one was nearing top of deck etc..

Clark Kant

01-31-2024, 08:24 PM

Has anyone tried Slip Out the Back in a list with 4 Uro + 4 Dreadnought?

I feel like this would be a the perfect place for the card given the power level of Uro/Dreadnought and the versatility of Slip Out in not only enabling the combo but also countering StP/Meltdown/Snuff Out/Push/Edict/PE/Brazen Bounce for just a single mana.

Also relevant for modern times, you can even use Slip Out to make your opponents Bowmasters disappear until their next turn during which you could spend cast all the cantrips you’re holding.

Bant Dressnought 2024

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3-4 Stifle
1-3 Slip Out the Back
1-2 Lorien Revealed
1 Daze/Misdirection (Spice Slot)

3-4 Prismatic Ending
3-4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1-3 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Brazen Borrower

3-4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1-2 Tundra
0-1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

With Slip Out, you could alternatively drop white altogether and play the below deck instead…

BUG Dressnought 2024

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3-4 Daze
1-3 Slip Out the Back
1-2 Witherbloom Command
1-2 Lorien Revealed
1 Shelodred’s Edict
1 Sylvan Library/Fatal Push/Snuff Out/Misdirection (Spice Spell)

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Leovold, Emissary/Death’s Shadow/Opposition Agent (Spice Beats)

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Swaml
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

//Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer
2 Force of Vigor
1 Fatal Push
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Force of Negation
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Its honestly beautifully built to counter or dodge a large portion of the current meta.

FTW

01-31-2024, 09:07 PM

Slip has been played at 1-2 copies in some Uro lists that made 5-0 on MTGO.

But if you're playing Slip you really don't need Thrull. 10 enablers is more than enough. Slip is much better with Uro and Endurance than Thrull is (does not counter ETB draw).

For your first list, it needs stable mana. It seems more viable as

//Lands: 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Slip Out the Back
2 Lorien Revealed

//Enchantments: 5
4 Dress Down
1 Sylvan Library

//Creatures: 9
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Brazen Borrower

Fox will point out strategic disadvantages vs Dreadstill, but as far as 3 color DressNought goes at least you've achieved important things:
- card advantage (Uro, Library, Lorien)
- reliable answers (StP, Ending)
- alternate wincon (Borrower, Uro)
- Dreadnought enablers that aren't bad on their own (Slip is most likely to be dead, but only 2 copies)
- somewhat stable mana as far as 3 color Uro decks go (still weak to mana hate)

Library might be suicidal vs Bowmasters. 1-of Greater Good could be interesting if you had Tarmogoyf as a fair threat.

In both lists Daze seems bad because you can't afford to undo land drops with manabases like that. The BUG one could use more unconditional interaction instead, e.g. Thoughtseize or Assassin's Trophy, since it doesn't have as many answers as the Bant one.

Clark Kant

01-31-2024, 09:17 PM

Oops, I was sure I typed 4 Thoughtseize into that BUG List but I think I accidentally left it out.

4 Thoughtseize is an autoinclude in BUG Nought and is my favorite reason to splash black, more so than Bowmasters.

Thoughtseize is the best way to check when the coast is clear to deploy your game winning threat.

Youre right that Sylvan Library is a bad idea in the Bowmasters meta. I havent played Library recently but yeah it should get axed from the lists.

I do think Uro Dressnought (particularly the two builds above) are very well positioned in the Bowmasters meta as they dodge a lot of removal. More importantly, the threats dodge Bowmasters and consistently outmuscle Orc armies while the lifegain from Uro sometimes let you ignore Bowmasters completely.

With Uro out, you can cantrip into Bowmasters without fear since you are still swinging with a 6/6, drawing a card and netting 2 life every turn.

They are also less reliant on cantrips than most lists so you could side out cantrips for sideboard hate against an aggressive Bowmasters list. Sideboard Endurance is not a reason to avoid playing Thrull. You can just sideout Thrull anytime youre siding Endurance in.

Greater Good+Goyf is a really neat suggestion. Is Goyf still a legacy power level card? Is Greater Good worth playing even without Goyf in the Bowmasters meta?

Also, just wanted to double check. Can you use Misdirection to Misdirect the ping damage from a Bowmasters back to itself. Being able to do that (and the prevalence of Leyline’s Binding) is what would make me want to play Misdirection. Or does Bowmasters no longer count as a spell thus preventing you from being able to Misdirect the damage?

FTW

01-31-2024, 09:39 PM

Misdirection does not work on Bowmasters or Leyline Binding. Those are triggered abilities. Force of Negation is the only Legacy-playable version.

The reason for 0 Thrull is not SB Endurance but because 10 enablers is enough (no room for both Thrull and Slip) and Thrull is worse with Uro. If you really want Thrull, probably have to go 0 Slip, but that's worse with the Uro plan.

Greater Good + Goyf are a bit below Legacy power level, though the Greater Good version has done OK in the past. It's better outside the Bowmaster meta.

Murktide and Questing Druid are better than Goyf, but you can't really run either. No red for Druid. Murktide + Uro don't work in the same deck.

Clark Kant

01-31-2024, 10:03 PM

Thank you. Misdirection isnt worth playing then. You can ignore that card in the above lists. Slip Out the Back is clearly superior since it does counter Leyline’s Binding and neuters Bowmasters for long enough to cast all your cantrips.

The more enablers you play, the more consistenly strong your threats become. By playing 11-13 enablers, you dramatically lower the odds of Dreadnought being a dead draw.

Given this, why do you say the deck should not play more than 10 “enablers” as you characterize them? Its not a lack of room. Both of my builds above have the room to play more than 10 and if needed, they can easily cut the Lorien Revealed to make even more room for our disruptive or cantripping enablers.

There is no such thing as too many “enablers” when all of the “enablers” themselves have very powerful, useful and unique roles that are actually more powerful than their utility in deploying our threats. Stifle, Dress Down, Slip Out and Thrull all meet that standard.

Stifle should primarily be used as a mana destruction spell, or a hard counter to powerful triggers and a game winning play against a variety of combo decks. Yes it enables the combo but thats not its primary function. Its fine to use it on Uro but I would never waste a Stifle on Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear.

Slip Out will more often be used to protect your threat and essentially counter removal spells than to enable the combo. Its the best way to protect your win condition. Akin to Stifle, its fine to use it on Uro since thats card neutral but I would never use it to “enable” a Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear. I would however 100% use it to protect any of my threats from removal which is something none of the other enablers can do.

Dress Down is conveniently the exact inverse of Stifle and Slip Out in that its fine to use it to deploy a single Dreadnought since doing so is a card neutral play and a single Dreadnought is capable of ending the game in 1-2 swings but I would never use up a Dress Down to deploy a single Uro by itself unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear. Dress Down always cantrips so it shouldnt even be considered an enabler. Its actual best use is to counter an opponents trigger while cantripping you and it will more often either be used to temporarily disable Bowmasters so you can deploy multiple cantrips, or it will be used to deploy multiple threats at once.

Thrull is unique from all the other enablers in a number of ways. Its a permanent hard counter to all creature triggers which largely shuts down a bunch of popular decks outright. Its also a permanent enabler to all current and future threats you deploy so it has potential far beyond when you first deploy it. Its also the best answer to any Stoneforge Mystic Living Weapon decks with incidental splash damage vs Mox as well. Its also a flash flying creature that kills attacking Bowmasters and other X/1 threats and can be flashed in response to stop an opponents most critical trigger which will outright win you some games.

Thrull however is useless in multiples so it only makes sense as a 1-2 of maindeck, but I think its absolutely worth playing in Bant lists alongside Slip Out the Back and it makes sense to play as many as 3 copies in the sideboard given its strength against certain popular decks.

All four cards have powerful and unique effects that are game winning in different situations. So they are all worth playing together. In most metas, it would be well worthwhile to maindeck…

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
1-3 Slip Out the Back
1-2 Doorkeeper Thrull

//Sideboard
2-3 Doorkeeper Thrull

even if it means playing as many as 13 “enablers” preboard and as many as 15 “enablers” postboard.

There is plenty of room, there is nothing wrong with playing…

20 Lands
13 Enablers
4 Uro
4 Dreadnought
8 Cantrips
11 Disruption/Removal

Particularly when the enablers themselves also serve as disruption and both Uro and Dress Down function as cantrips as well.

FTW

01-31-2024, 11:39 PM

Why do you say the deck should not play more than 10 “enablers” as you characterize them. My builds above have the room to play more than 10 and if needed, they can easily cut the Lorien Revealed to make more room.

It's been possible to play 16+ enablers for many years, yet builds with more than 12-13 enablers have not seen competitive results. The successful decks have 7-10.

We can speculate reasons, but most importantly the results speak for themselves. Winning decks haven't needed more. Decks with more haven't done better. Maybe Fox has a better answer for why.

So instead of more enablers, you could use those slots on other roles instead (card draw, removal, alternate threat, stable mana) - roles that are important to play a balanced game against enemy decks. The Bant build I posted above is quite tight for space. There are about 1-3 flex slots (Sylvan Library & Slip are the weakest cards). The 6th removal or 8th cantrip is needed more than the 11th enabler. If there was more space, it should go to 3rd Prismatic Ending or 1st Force of Negation or an alternate threat.

Cutting Lorien seems bad because you need the mana fixing (3 color deck with UUGG) and card draw more than another enabler.

"Too many" enablers looks like drawing enablers far more often than drawing Dreadnought. They aren't quite "dead cards" - you can do something else with them - but the cards are below Legacy power level at that function. And worse than the non-enabler cards you had to cut.

You don't see competitive decks running Slip Out the Back or Vision Charm or The Mycosynth Gardens or Torpor Orb or Hushbringer maindeck without Dreadnoughts, which tells you their other uses are below Legacy power (definitely worse than Goyf). Dress Down cycles and has strong uses. Still non-Dreadnought decks don't play 4 copies of Dress Down. They play 2-3 max. So yes, the cards do other things, but they're below the power level unless making 12/12s. And they compete for space with higher power cards.

If you do somehow have space that isn't better as something else (answer, draw, threat), then you have to ask if Thrull is the best enabler to take that spot. Thrull doesn't work well with Uro. So would you prefer a powerful card like Scroll of Fate or Karn, the Great Creator instead?

Thrull has potential, but that Bant list with 4 Dreadnought 4 Uro may not be the best fit for it. Uro has an important role there as the secondary threat & midgame stabilizer, so you don't want to shut off your own Uro triggers just to make a 6/6 (smaller than Murktide).

Stifle should primarily be used as a mana destruction spell, or a hard counter to powerful triggers and a game winning play against a variety of combo decks. Yes it enables the combo but thats not its primary function. Its fine to use it on Uro but I would never waste a Stifle on Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear.

I agree. But it's also hard to use Stifle as a reactive spell in a tap-out style Bant deck with plays like Ponder, Uro, Sylvan Library, PEnding. You won't have mana open at the right times to Stifle them.

That leads to 2 choices really
1) Play like Fox's Dreadstill (cut Ponder & Uro, play more instant speed plays like Shark Typhoon)

2) Cut down to 2 Stifle because you can't use the 4 Stifle optimally

Cutting Stifles does free up space, perhaps for Thrull.

Slip Out will more often be used to protect your threat and essentially counter removal spells than to enable the combo.

But with only 9 creatures in the deck, you often won't have a threat to protect. Then a hand full of enablers (especially Slip) looks bad. That mode is only useful if you've used another enabler to make a threat.

Slip could also be used to Scam Subtlety. That tech is worth looking into. Unfortunately you don't have the white count to scam Solitude.

So you could cut some Slips or Stifles to make room for Thrulls (Thrull does disrupt a lot of decks); it's just that Thrull is worse than Slip or Stifle with Uro.

Clark Kant

01-31-2024, 11:56 PM

I quite like the Bant list above. But as you yourself mentioned, Sylvan Library should probably get the boot and 1 Lorien Revealed likely suffices so there is 2 extra slots right there. Its also blatantly obvious why decks didnt play more than 10 enablers before. Its because the earlier enablers like Vision Charm and Illusionary Mask/Torpor Orb/Scroll for many years. Those cards just arent anywhere near as disruptive or impactful as the two most recent enablers, Slip Out the Back and Thrull, due to these enablers instant speed, cheap cost and the powerful effect they have on the board.

I am not saying 13 Enablers is optimal. 13 might make sense for Bant lists in metas with lots of Doomsday or DnT.

However the optimal BUG list only plays at most 11 enablers…

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
3 Slip Out the Back

4 Dreadnought
4 Uro
3 Bowmasters

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Thoughtseize
4 FoW
1 Witherbloom Command
1-2 Flex Slot

19-20 Lands

FTW

02-01-2024, 12:02 AM

Slip's been out for a while. The winning decks only run 1-2 Slip even when they could run 4. Some also cut back on Stifles.

Scroll of Fate & Karn (into Torpor Orb) are both very strong cards. So it has been possible to play 12-15 "good" enablers for some time, yet winning decks didn't.

That BUG list is very low on removal and has unstable mana on 19 lands with 0 Lorien and some Wastelands. An optimal BUG list needs more: Assassin's Trophy and/or Sheoldred's Edict. Going below 20 lands also means manascrew vs Delver.

Clark Kant

02-01-2024, 12:15 AM

The BUG list I posted can play 20 lands and 1 Lorien Revealed in the flex slot. Why is more removal essential when our threats outpace most creatures and we have 4 thoughtseize and 4 fow supplementing our threats? I am open to moving Bowmasters or Witherbloom to the board to make room for the appropriate removal if you can tell me what matchups/threats you are most worried about that you feel we need additional removal to answer.

I understand where youre coming from. Scroll and Karn are decent but I actually do not feel Scroll is a legacy power level card. Creating a 2/2 a turn at the cost of a card is just too slow for Legacy and 3 mana is a lot to pay for such a meager payoff.

And I feel that Karn at 4cc is just too expensive. I have lost as many games to mana flood as I have to mana screw so I do not think it is a good idea to play either 4cc spells like Karn and Greater Good and risk mana screw. And I also do not think its a good idea to play a high land count and risk mana flood.

Likewise, I like lots of enablers because I rarely want to lose a game with a Dreadnought stuck in my hand that I had no means to cast. In this Grief meta, opponents pick off Dreadnought enablers too easily and thus the more enablers we play, the more likely we can cantrip into one.

I am firmly in the keep all the spells at 3cc or less and keep the land count a lean 19-20 supplemented by cantrips camp. But as I said before, I do think the Bant list you posted above is pretty close to optimal as long as you make room for some Thrull in the sideboard atleast.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-01-2024, 09:11 AM

If you're already playing stifle, slip, Thoughtseize and Bowmasters, why not grief?

FTW

02-01-2024, 10:16 AM

Yeah that's the other thing... once you're on both Stifle & Slip, scam seems like a better secondary strategy. Thrull works badly with Uro & Scam, but Slip is good with both. You could scam Grief for discard, or you could scam Subtletly (counters Grief & Initiative & planeswalkers).

Otherwise 3-4 Slip seems excessive. It's not really a Legacy level card. Non-Dreadnought decks don't run it. Dreadnought decks have only run 1-2 even though they could have 4.

19-20 lands with 3-4 Wasteland and UUGG costs and 0 Lorien will get ripped apart by mana denial decks (Delver, DnT, Moon Stompy). You don't want mana flood either, but that's why Lorien is good. With Lorien you don't get flooded but you don't get mana screwed either.

Why removal? When your main plan is turn 3 Dreadnought/Uro (after Dress Down or Thrull, avoiding blind Stifle+Nought like you said), many decks can race. Delver's Murktide after slowing you down with Wasteland & Daze. Turn 1 Initiative creature is dangerous. UB scam can reanimate an early Troll after discarding your Force. Goblins can make turn 1 Muxus.

What do you do against a resolved Chalice @ 1? It shuts off a lot of the deck. The Bant deck has Prismatic Ending & Borrower, but the BUG deck has just 1 Witherbloom Command.

What about opponent playing Karn into Ensnaring Bridge? If you don't have Force, 0 answers for Bridge maindeck.

20/20 Marit Lage ambushing or racing Dreadnought? The Bant deck has 7 answers, BUG has 0 (Sheoldred Edict helps).

With Force and Thoughtseize you're very prepared for combo, but fair decks can also play dangerous permanents before you can race. Most decks run answers.

When running extra enablers, you have to ask if those enablers help you win more than flexible removal or Lorien or card draw would. BUG might want some Sauron's Ransom, a better solution to discard than playing redundant effects (if they see Dreadnought & 3 enablers, they're just taking Dreadnought).

In BUG, if you still want extra enablers, look at that UB flying looter that can turn into Dreadnoughts. At least that's an enabler that can also smooth out unbalanced hands or dig into answers.

Clark Kant

02-01-2024, 11:24 AM

You’re right. Grief makes a lot of sense in the BUG list with Stifle and Slip.

Adding Grief seems correct, the only issue is figuring out what to cut and how to up the black count to 14. I guess it would fit into the flex slots and a Thoughtseize or two could be substituted with Grief. In addition, playing a Leovold, Emissary of Trest is a great way to boost both our disruption and our black and blue count, but that still doesnt quite get us to a black count of 14.

So I am wondering if perhaps it makes sense to replace a Ponder with a Sauron’s Ransom or Shelodred’s Edict or Snuff Out in order to increase the black count for Greif. If we go the Snuff Out route, replacing the 4th Uro with a 1 of Death’s Shadow also makes sense as a way to beef up both the black count and our clock.

FTW

02-01-2024, 11:54 AM

Troll (instead of Lorien), Sauron's Ransom and removal could boost black count if you're on the Grief plan.

I tried throwing something together. You end up cutting copies of Dress Down and Uro and to make room.

That's the problem with too many enablers. Fights for space. Dress Down ends up looking worse with Grief & Bowmasters & Uro too.

Can't cut Ponder in a 3-color Uro deck with only 16 colored lands, the manabase needs it.

Edit:

//Creatures: 14
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Grief
2 Troll

//Spells: 25
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
2 Slip Out the Back
2 Thoughtseize
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Sauron's Ransom

//Enchantments: 2
2 Dress Down

//Lands: 19
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Clark Kant

02-01-2024, 12:03 PM

Yeah replacing Lorien with Troll is probably the best way to get to 14 black cards for Grief. Once you add Grief and Troll, a Reanimate or two starts to look very appealing. But I wouldnt cut Dress Down. Its the best “enabler” of them all.

Curious what the list you came up with looks like. Do you mind sharing it?

FTW

02-01-2024, 12:07 PM

Just posted it above in an edit.

I added Sauron's Ransom for card draw and Trophy (removes Dark Depths, Murktide, Chalice @ 1, Ensnaring Bridge, Back to Basics, planeswalkers, Archon of Cruelty, Serra's Emissary on creatures... most permanents that would give this deck problems). Troll instead of Lorien

Black count is 15. But to make room I had to cut back on Uros, Dress Downs and Wasteland.

Edit: So the problem with Dress Down here is although it's the best Dreadnought card, it has anti-synergy with the other creatures (and even cycling it can backfire).
Uro - turns off card draw & life gain & land drop
Bowmasters - turns off your own Bowmasters for a turn to let opponent Brainstorm
Grief - turns off Grief ETB discard

Slip doesn't turn off Grief & Uro abilities, so it's better there, but it's worse by itself and worse with Dreadnought.

Slip + Grief is also worse than Reanimate/Ephemerate + Grief (get extra discard). So maybe it's not worth mixing Scam and Dreadnought. You end up watering down both.

Clark Kant

02-01-2024, 08:51 PM

Slip + Grief is also worse than Reanimate/Ephemerate + Grief (get extra discard). So maybe it's not worth mixing Scam and Dreadnought. You end up watering down both.

Yeah. I got caught up in the excitement of integrating scam into Dressnought that I overlooked how much worse the interaction is compared to scam. Losing a discard is huge and just makes it no where near as powerful. That plus all the cuts needed to up the black count to enable Grief and it just doesnt seem worth it.

I prefer the nonGrief lists below to a Grief build. They are just better and more consistent…

Bant Dressnought 2024

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Lorien Revealed
1 Daze

3 Prismatic Ending
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Doorkeeper Thrull/Brazen Borrower

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

BUG Dressnought 2024

3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Slip Out the Back
1 Daze
1 Witherbloom Command
1 Lorien Revealed
1 Shelodred’s Edict

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

//Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer
2 Force of Vigor
1 Pick Your Poison
1 Fatal Push
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Force of Negation

FTW

02-01-2024, 11:28 PM

Yeah the non-Grief build looks better. Otherwise both strategies are too diluted to be good.

For the Bant deck, OK, there's space to try 1 Thrull main in a flex slot and see how well it disrupts the opponent. That Daze or 1 Slip is probably better as a 2nd Lorien or a Force of Negation though. But such a small change will have a negligible impact on results over a few Leagues, so there's no harm in keeping the spice slot if you enjoy it and it throws off local players into misplaying lines.

Fox

02-02-2024, 12:08 AM

What's sketchy about that manabase? It should hit UW colors easily.
3c syndrome held together by duals where all the survival is on a 3rd color that does nothing other than cast kills spells, does not lend itself to total mana progression. The lack of proactive 1 mana plays is glaring here, and 2 mana stuff isn't much better if you don't have Nought + Dress Down. Tapping out of Stifle is suspect, and playing into Bowmasters to turn on shaky mana is all a bad clustering of gameplans. Then all the CA is on 3 mana, with recursion needing UUGG...

But with only 9 creatures in the deck, you often won't have a threat to protect.
More specifically there is literally no way to win without ramming into the removal-based magic wall. Remember that having kill spells does not speed up this plan, nor does it leave space for a different wincon.

Concerning enabler : Dreadnought ratio, you should be around 1.5 to 2 per copy of Dreadnought (otherwise hand will do nothing). Mycosynth does not count as an enabler, and should not be used this way except as a salvage line.
^these clusters of findings run together: a mana system [cantrip cartel, too few lands, too many colors/colorpips] that doesn't really work in a self 2-for-1 deck, lack of wincon diversity, and overloading enablers. The next place thought processes like this go is very reminiscent of modern deck design: do the thing harder, have more big dudes and more enablers. Then adding removal that doesn't advance the gameplan, or unlock an alternate wincon, just hard locks the deck into its construction flaws. Once you're to this point you need to see an overwhelming amount of a good matchup to post results (while picking up a lot of bad to unwinnable matchups, that you're somehow avoiding).
---
The black color set hasn't been a good secondary color since DRS got banned. It's offers nothing to the strategy (because Qarsi High Priest and Sultai Emissary just aren't good enough, and Dreadnought does not share tech with Shadow). This is where someone comes in and talks about how great Thoughtseize is, completely forgetting that winning more against combo decks you already crush leads to loss of Stifle subgame leading to increased total bad matchups. It's a trap color. If you want to do stuff with black and Grief you play Shadow or Reanimator or Scam (until Grief gets banned).
---
White as the secondary color has enough synergies to play non-wincon removal (i.e. not Bolt) through the Karn/Teferi/Scroll cluster, but you need to stay almost entirely off dual lands and their inevitable losses to Wasteland. Your mana must progress.
Trying to be aggressive with white doesn't work with Plow giving life and not having 1 drops; same issue with 3c UG-centric builds. You'd also be picking up losses to combo decks that ignore white spot removal.
---
You have Dress Down and a reason to play 4x in Stiflenought decks like these. Dress Down can deny hostile Bowmaster trigger and also the passive (which is important b/c your mana is really bad unless you can offensively spam cantrips). Stop worrying about cards and matchups you have the answer to. Get the CA off green. Stick to UR or UW.
---
In terms of new cards UR got DRC then Saga then Mycosynth and now Pyrotechnic Performer (which may or may not work). UW hasn't gotten any new unique tools in a long time. Both can use Lorien effectively. If you want to get creative:
https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/Lost-in-the-Maze-MKM-265.jpg
Kind of a no-brainer with manlands, but this is a play Standstill card...and ofc UR got more than UW with Restless Spire. Just straight-up unkillable manlands.

FTW

02-02-2024, 10:34 AM

>> Quote Originally Posted by FTW
>> What's sketchy about that manabase? It should hit UW colors easily.

3c syndrome held together by duals where all the survival is on a 3rd color that does nothing other than cast kills spells, does not lend itself to total mana progression. The lack of proactive 1 mana plays is glaring here, and 2 mana stuff isn't much better if you don't have Nought + Dress Down. Tapping out of Stifle is suspect, and playing into Bowmasters to turn on shaky mana is all a bad clustering of gameplans. Then all the CA is on 3 mana, with recursion needing UUGG...

That quote asked about a 2-color UW manabase I proposed earlier, which you had replied to and critiqued. This reply has 0 words on why that mana is sketchy.

I appreciate you're quoting now, but you've taken to intentionally quoting out-of-context to construct false arguments to shoot down. Uthden Troll tribal is not viable on a competitive Legacy forum.

Of course 3c mana is weaker. But if Clark wants to play Dreadnought + Uro, a 3rd color is necessary. The discussion reduces to how to make that less bad among possible 3c UGx Dreadnought + Uro builds (need enough blue duals & blue fetches, Xerox, Lorien, and at least some basics). 3c may not be Tier 1, and it may perhaps be a lower Tier than 2c Dreadnought, but 3c has made enough MTGO results and Top 8s to show it is viable. Then it is worth discussing the most viable way to build 3c UGx. There are clearly players who want to play 3c, and it's capable of winning enough games.

More specifically there is literally no way to win without ramming into the removal-based magic wall. Remember that having kill spells does not speed up this plan, nor does it leave space for a different wincon.

So do you think Clark was on the right track then by ignoring kill spells? Redundant Slip Out the Back protects from removal.

There's no plan B, but perhaps Slip and Daze help Plan A (out-tempo removal) better than kill spells would.

The black color set hasn't been a good secondary color since DRS got banned. It's offers nothing to the strategy (because Qarsi High Priest and Sultai Emissary just aren't good enough, and Dreadnought does not share tech with Shadow). This is where someone comes in and talks about how great Thoughtseize is, completely forgetting that winning more against combo decks you already crush leads to loss of Stifle subgame leading to increased total bad matchups. It's a trap color. If you want to do stuff with black and Grief you play Shadow or Reanimator or Scam (until Grief gets banned).

Agree that Scam and Dreadnought are better separate. Posted a hypothetical list to show why they don't work well together. You have to water down both to make room. Better to play them separately.

In black, what about Stalactite Stalker? B for 2/2 menace. Keeps growing. Proactive 1-drop. Curves under Standstill. Grows through non-spell actions (fetch, Waste, Saga, cycle, channel land, Standstill pop). Can function as non-spell removal.

Other offerings from black: Bowmasters, Sauron's Ransom, Drown in the Loch, Sheoldred's Edict, Nihil Spellbomb. Most of these let you operate at instant speed, holding up Stifle, not tapping out sorcery speed.

White as the secondary color has enough synergies to play non-wincon removal (i.e. not Bolt) through the Karn/Teferi/Scroll cluster, but you need to stay almost entirely off dual lands and their inevitable losses to Wasteland. Your mana must progress.
Trying to be aggressive with white doesn't work with Plow giving life and not having 1 drops; same issue with 3c UG-centric builds. You'd also be picking up losses to combo decks that ignore white spot removal.

Doesn't answer why the controlling UW direction (e.g. what I posted earlier) is not viable. Making tokens is to overload removal in the late game, not play aggro. I found that works well in Standstill. If they spend cards on 2/2 zombies, 2/2 manifest fetchlands, constructs, or Sharks then you're ahead. UW Dreadnought should be able to leverage the same.

and ofc UR got more than UW with Restless Spire. Just straight-up unkillable manlands.

Unkillable.. except combat. 2/1 non-evasive is on par with Ghitu Encampment, which was never Legacy playable. Dies to 1/3s lol.
Creeping Tar Pit on the other hand...

Fox

02-03-2024, 08:35 AM

That quote asked about a 2-color UW manabase I proposed earlier, which you had replied to and critiqued. This reply has 0 words on why that mana is sketchy.
There's a lot of lists being put up, by multiple people. I'm talking about the 3c mana bases. Some examples:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

What I was not talking about was your 2c list from a few pages ago:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Otawara, Soaring City
2 Urza's Saga
1-2 other lands

This mana is better. With Lorien, we should probably be dropping Tundra to 1x and Dragon to 1x. 20-21 lands with 2 being Saga is pretty risky in UW when it shows up in the opening hand (UR is better at low mana plans). You don't want to be fighting hostile Saga with your Saga (they've got you beat on speed and construct size), you want that to be Wasteland. In that incomplete list, you don't have early CA to bridge to Lorien's Standstill mode. This need to get up to 3UU for CA, means you're going to have to use Dress Down to draw into/closer to your next lands - so it's not just that Saga kills itself, but you also have to choose between blowing up your constructs and unlocking your CA. Saga also makes it more difficult to play around FoV, and unlike UR you don't get to use delirium as compensation. Without access to credible creature threats like UR has, presenting Dreadnought off a Saga trigger has one of the highest fail rates in legacy (you didn't flush out removal).

I appreciate you're quoting now, but you've taken to intentionally quoting out-of-context to construct false arguments to shoot down. Uthden Troll tribal is not viable on a competitive Legacy forum.
I am talking about multiple posts, not just yours. The context of this entire thread, and the Stiflenought group across all platforms, is that the idea that a 1-for-1 cantrip construction in a deck that 2-for-1s itself should be borrowed from strategies that use mono-1-for-1s. On top of this, Stiflenought decks have this gameplan that operates almost exclusively at 3-4 mana while playing into Wasteland with too many duals. Then we go into the "if only I could do the thing harder" mindset, in a deck that is almost 1/2 lands + cantrip cartel.

Then we get into the really weird stuff like this: "Scroll and Karn are decent but I actually do not feel Scroll is a legacy power level card. Creating a 2/2 a turn at the cost of a card is just too slow for Legacy and 3 mana is a lot to pay for such a meager payoff. And I feel that Karn at 4cc is just too expensive. I have lost as many games to mana flood as I have to mana screw so I do not think it is a good idea to play either 4cc spells like Karn and Greater Good and risk mana screw. And I also do not think its a good idea to play a high land count and risk mana flood." This is a fascinating viewpoint from a deck that has no plan below 3 mana, unless they have a Dress Down and 2x Noughts in hand. What are you losing to - mana flood or mana screw? But also, while we're talking about legacy power level things, I think having mana that only works with 1cmc spells and no plan against Chalice/Moon might be a problem. Like what's the grand plan here - hope to dodge Tomb and also dodge removal-based matchups rather than fix these matchups? Uro is a good card and all, but it doesn't fix these fundamental issues.

Outside of combo decks, legacy is almost entirely composed of Tomb nonsense, Delver, and a ton of removal-based decks. Delver and combo together are a much smaller fraction of legacy than Tomb and removal-based. When we talk about the removal-based fraction, it will be pretty common for them to run Bowmaster...and now we have to explain to them how Doorkeeper Thrull does not work against the Bowmaster passive - like you still can't cast cantrips, especially Brainstorm. Then you have to deal with Bowmaster + Dreadnought to navigate this bad mana misadventure vs hostile Bowmaster, even though black offers nothing worthwhile to Dreadnought...the bad ideas just don't stop. I think my favorite is how we're gonna make summoning sick dudes at sorcery speed, pass the turn, and protect them with Daze.
^These are the types of broad concepts I'm talking about, which are more complex than Uthden Troll tribal not working. Having a deck that attacks on no other axis than playing into removal needs a lot more removal targets (that are worth removing - people aren't going to die to a Torpor Magus unless they're using exactly Thassa)

Of course 3c mana is weaker. But if Clark wants to play Dreadnought + Uro, a 3rd color is necessary. The discussion reduces to how to make that less bad among possible 3c UGx Dreadnought + Uro builds (need enough blue duals & blue fetches, Xerox, Lorien, and at least some basics). 3c may not be Tier 1, and it may perhaps be a lower Tier than 2c Dreadnought, but 3c has made enough MTGO results and Top 8s to show it is viable. Then it is worth discussing the most viable way to build 3c UGx. There are clearly players who want to play 3c, and it's capable of winning enough games.
Uro is an example of solving the CA requirement of Dreadnought incorrectly. This specific solution creates a lot more problems (speed, mana security, vulnerability to the most common SB trope in legacy - GY hate) and you're heavy in UG - a color set which cannot solve those problems. Then it starts getting harder, because your mana needs help against Moon/Chalice, then you have to be able to deal with Leo/Narset-type passives, then you have to be able to deal with Bowmaster passives. Legacy keeps getting harder and harder to get away with draw card effects in the mid- and late-game without the protection of kill spells...but every time you add those kill spells to preserve Uro's CA, you get further from adequately supporting a Dreadnought plan. You end up painting a bigger and bigger target on Dreadnought as other creatures fall away, while simultaneously only being able to win with the combat step.

So do you think Clark was on the right track then by ignoring kill spells? Redundant Slip Out the Back protects from removal.
If you ignore kill spells and stick with a 3-4cmc CA plan [Uro], then you don't really have a CA plan (discussed in above paragraph). Overload on enablers and you need something to enable. To consider Slip Out the Back a playable magic card, we would need to restore phasing rules vs tokens; at least then you could pick fights with it (exile Lage and dunking equipment for the rest of a game via indirect phasing rules being the primary uses). The issue isn't too few enablers, and if we're using phasing we should be trolling Doomsday with mill 4 and detonating Urza's Sagas with Vision Charm.
^Notice how I'm never talking about cheating Dreadnought into play or doing things like protecting it with a trick, because it's the least important function. You have to create credible problems for opponents [Thrull fails here too], while naturally furthering the Nought plan.

The issue is that Stiflenought is trying to solve two equations at the same time (and while doing that they're not increasing their % of good matchups; we're still on the hope to get paired vs Delver or combo plan). It doesn't help if you cripple the Dreadnought plan when you unlock the CA plan with mass removal, or vice versa. What needs to happen here is focus on modal CA (e.g. Lorien, which also means having a real manabase) and speeding up CA down to 1-2cmc (which naturally lends itself to drawing deeper into a deck, which advances the mana for the modal CA). This is where Standstill and the mana system and cards it drags along, like Shark Typhoon are ideal. Standstill's mana system is also capable of using lands as spells, because that mana is secure and the mana progression is relentless (we open hands with 2 lands, and usually around 1 in 4 cards in the deck costing 1-2 mana find/draw towards the next land...and basic lands can't really be interacted with). If you're not willing to solve these problems with the Standstill system, you probably need to start looking at Beanstalk and Solitude (it creates a draw effect while offering to solve the "I can't draw" problem, which leaves more space for the Dreadnought kit than Uro). The problem there is that Beanstalk is the wrong color, slot heavy, and it really important to cast early (this creates problems when you don't have Vista or the 1x basic Forest in the opening hand; adding a single Trop for Lorien and Strand will generate losses by itself, but it would be mandatory). Even with Beanstalk, you need to fix the mana situation and stop using cantrip cartel if you want space to play Dreadnought. FoW/Lorien/Solitude/Timeless Dragon/overpaying of Ending/Teferi bounce Beans - this is where your slots are going for a Beanstalk build. You now need a non-cantrip cartel mana base that functions (that means the Standstill system of mana). You also are adding green without the ability to play the best green card in the format (SB FoV).

Doesn't answer why the controlling UW direction (e.g. what I posted earlier) is not viable. Making tokens is to overload removal in the late game, not play aggro. I found that works well in Standstill. If they spend cards on 2/2 zombies, 2/2 manifest fetchlands, constructs, or Sharks then you're ahead. UW Dreadnought should be able to leverage the same.
UW is still missing lifegain, CA, speed. UW does work, but UR is getting way more tools at a vastly superior rate, they're more aggressively costed, and much higher on synergy. You haven't played DRC until you've played it with Dreadnought, it's just the most perfect card ever made to put with Dreadnought. Like they deal with the Dreadnought and it basically turns into an enchant creature giving DRC flying and +2/+2, and the whole time DRC is working seamlessly on the mana progression/card selection angle. On top of that you add that UR's costs are much friendlier to running some Sagas and Mycosynth, and now we're getting a 12-dome magus with the Performer guy. Like why am I running UW right now? Don't get me wrong, I love nuking every land with Karn and dumping Dreadnoughts into play off Scroll with Teferi passive vs hands entirely composed of kill spells...but that's what UBw Landstill is for, and if I'm playing Nought I'm casting Pyroblast and PoP right now.

Unkillable.. except combat. 2/1 non-evasive is on par with Ghitu Encampment, which was never Legacy playable. Dies to 1/3s lol.
Creeping Tar Pit on the other hand...
When you have a Standstill in play, it doesn't really matter what the threat is. The difference is, this land taps for U [the primary color] and R. The animation cost is very low by manland equivalents, and it's in the two colors getting all the new printings right now. While the ETB tapped is suboptimal, you still gain points vs Choke/Carpet. Now a manland with 1 toughness is a red flag with Bowmasters, but there's fun to be had with a flash UU enchantment (we can ignore the X mode) that lets a manland tap to get hexproof from Bowmaster or Wasteland - tapping a manland at will isn't exactly difficult. A 2/1 hexproof + first strike is pretty scary for most removal-based legacy decks; the perfect mana (albeit ETB) is scary for the rest as it decreases mulligans.

Obviously you're not playing this card unless you are a damage-based Standstill deck like Dreadstill or something else like Infect. UU flash all manlands are TNN is pretty reasonable. Like sure it doesn't draw a card or have landcycling, but it does have a nice tap target Marit Lage or give target creature [Dreadnought] hexproof on the X mode. This is a card that checks most of the synergy boxes: increase blue count, ability to avoid discard from EoT Standstill cracks, invalidate removal/make opponents commit first, good enough to play in multiples. Is it good enough to drop Mycosynth and play alongside a few Saga and a heavier Standstill plan, maybe. It's definitely good enough to test. I think it's a harder thing for people that don't play Standstill to recognize, but getting colored mana from the Mishra's Factory slots is pretty huge, not just for the mana fixing - you also can play these at 2 slots rather than the mandatory 3x for Factory. Most have a hard time understanding we don't have to animate manlands unless we want to; we're happy to use the higher land count and mana. In UBw Landstill I'm always playing 2x CTP, that's one of the main benefits of the UB core, getting colors off a colorless slot. Returning to the discussion about UW, the best manland they have is still just Hall of Storm Giants, which means that their manland slots are going to Otawara, which means that you're offloading the manland function to Timeless Dragon.

When you're trying to win with Dreadnought, you need to be on top of identifying useful cards and adapting to incorporate new printings - especially when their mechanisms directly attack static netdeck patterns. So when you see trends like Beanstalk (aka Counterbalance/Hymn 2.0) going around with 4-5c manabases killing diversity like it does, Shadow and Doomsday and Tomb hemorrhaging life total...and then you're getting fed UR cards constantly that all do damage...at a time when you should cast Price of Progress...maybe the gut instinct shouldn't be "now is the time to go white with Thrull!"

FTW

02-03-2024, 12:57 PM

There's a lot of lists being put up, by multiple people. I'm talking about the 3c mana bases.

I am talking about multiple posts, not just yours.

What I was not talking about was your 2c list from a few pages ago:

You said it directly under quoting me (from a few pages back about the UW mana). If you follow the links in your own quotes, it leads back to that page, you quoting that 2c UW manabase, talking about Saga and sketchy mana. I asked why that 2c mana was sketchy. You now quote that several pages later (out of context) to talk about 3c decks. It's just strange you chose that quote then, instead of any of the 3c mana/discussion. That makes it hard to follow when so many different decklists and strategies are being discussed, but you're singling out isolated lines to reply to (and then talking about a different topic).

Of course the 3c mana is worse. Clark wants to play Bant or BUG though. To play 3c with Uro, you're tied into duals and Xerox, otherwise the mana would be even worse.

This mana is better. With Lorien, we should probably be dropping Tundra to 1x and Dragon to 1x. 20-21 lands with 2 being Saga is pretty risky in UW when it shows up in the opening hand

Would be nice to have the 2nd Dragon though. Isn't Tundra #2 better than Plains #3? Could also go up in lands to 22-23.

You don't want to be fighting hostile Saga with your Saga (they've got you beat on speed and construct size), you want that to be Wasteland. In that incomplete list, you don't have early CA to bridge to Lorien's Standstill mode. This need to get up to 3UU for CA, means you're going to have to use Dress Down to draw into/closer to your next lands - so it's not just that Saga kills itself, but you also have to choose between blowing up your constructs and unlocking your CA. Saga also makes it more difficult to play around FoV

Or you can beat hostile Saga with Dress Down?

Struggling to reach card advantage mana or getting blown out by FoV are good points though. Problems Landstill doesn't have to worry about.

The context of this entire thread, and the Stiflenought group across all platforms, is that the idea that a 1-for-1 cantrip construction in a deck that 2-for-1s itself should be borrowed from strategies that use mono-1-for-1s. On top of this, Stiflenought decks have this gameplan that operates almost exclusively at 3-4 mana while playing into Wasteland with too many duals. Then we go into the "if only I could do the thing harder" mindset, in a deck that is almost 1/2 lands + cantrip cartel.

Yes, Ponder is bad at digging into 2-for-1s like Stifle + Dreadnought. 4x Uro does give a "1-card combo" to dig into (that even helps catch up on cards). Some other Stiflenought lists without Uro are on Murktide. Adding alternate fair threats does mitigate this risk a bit, doesn't it? It's something to dig for with Ponder.

Clark mentions he rarely uses Stifle to make Dreadnoughts. If 4x Dress Down is the main enabler and Stifle/Slip are backups, there's less self 2-for-1ing and maybe less need to compensate for that. Some Stiflenought 5-0s have cut down to 2 Stifle to reflect that plan. Ponder does work in other A+B combos that aren't 2-for-1d by Fatal Push. The more the deck pivots away from Stifle as an enabler, the less that structural 2-for-1 problem should matter.

Then we get into the really weird stuff like this: "Scroll and Karn are decent but I actually do not feel Scroll is a legacy power level card. Creating a 2/2 a turn at the cost of a card is just too slow for Legacy and 3 mana is a lot to pay for such a meager payoff. And I feel that Karn at 4cc is just too expensive. I have lost as many games to mana flood as I have to mana screw so I do not think it is a good idea to play either 4cc spells like Karn and Greater Good and risk mana screw. And I also do not think its a good idea to play a high land count and risk mana flood." This is a fascinating viewpoint from a deck that has no plan below 3 mana, unless they have a Dress Down and 2x Noughts in hand. What are you losing to - mana flood or mana screw?

I did not get his preference for <20 lands and cutting Lorien.

BoshNRoll has a few Dreadnought videos with these low-land manabases and he gets manascrewed often.

With multiple Uro and Lorien, why the fear of flooding? You can convert extra mana into cards. Otawara and Boseiju are other easy ways to cheat up on lands.

But also, while we're talking about legacy power level things, I think having mana that only works with 1cmc spells and no plan against Chalice/Moon might be a problem. Like what's the grand plan here - hope to dodge Tomb and also dodge removal-based matchups rather than fix these matchups? Uro is a good card and all, but it doesn't fix these fundamental issues.

Prismatic Ending (Bant), Assassin's Trophy (BUG), and SB Force of Vigor and Force of Negation should help these problems. But Turn 1 Blood Moon is still a blowout.

it will be pretty common for them to run Bowmaster...and now we have to explain to them how Doorkeeper Thrull does not work against the Bowmaster passive

The best line against Bowmasters passive is:
-You have no early board presence
-Opponent plays T2 EOT Bowmasters & attacks turn 3 into your open mana & empty board
-Flash Doorkeeper Thrull blocks 1/1 Bowmasters

That is a reasonable line. If opponent has removal, they will blow it on Thrull (1-for-1). If they allow the ambush, you can safely untap and play Dreadnought.

Using Thrull to ambush first (or "Stifle" something on the stack) forces opponent to use removal on Thrull, or you go up on cards and tempo. If you play Thrull at sorcery speed or as a 2-for-1 Dreadnought enabler, then you're getting wrecked by removal. That's where Thrull's Flash makes it much better than all previous iterations. You can use it to force action.

Uro is an example of solving the CA requirement of Dreadnought incorrectly.

Only if you view Uro solely as a solution to a CA problem for Dreadnought. Then of course there are other CA tools that allow more stable mana.

Uro + Dreadnought seems to be a fundamental deck concept a lot of players want to play, because they want to Uro+Stifle. Then you're already forced into UGx, but you also have 1-card threats and less structural CA issue (can even board out some Dreadnoughts). Instead of trying to solve the Dreadnought equation, it could pivot towards other threats when the 2-for-1 plan is not good. But Stiflenought does present an actual clock against combo, something Uro can't do, so the Dreadnoughts still serve a purpose in the deck. This seems to work as a concept: there have been enough top8s and MTGO results by now. The deck does need more fair threats then. 4 Uro + 1 other creature is too few.

What needs to happen here is focus on modal CA (e.g. Lorien, which also means having a real manabase) and speeding up CA down to 1-2cmc (which naturally lends itself to drawing deeper into a deck, which advances the mana for the modal CA). This is where Standstill and the mana system and cards it drags along, like Shark Typhoon are ideal.

Standstill is one solution, but Standstill as a draw engine is also suboptimal in the current meta.

What about Beans? There are enough modal 5 cmcs: Force of Will, Lorien Revealed, Solitude (can also cheat out with Stifle), Timeless Dragon, maybe Murktide.

When you have a Standstill in play, it doesn't really matter what the threat is. The difference is, this land taps for U [the primary color] and R. The animation cost is very low by manland equivalents, and it's in the two colors getting all the new printings right now. While the ETB tapped is suboptimal, you still gain points vs Choke/Carpet. Now a manland with 1 toughness is a red flag with Bowmasters, but there's fun to be had with a flash UU enchantment (we can ignore the X mode) that lets a manland tap to get hexproof from Bowmaster or Wasteland - tapping a manland at will isn't exactly difficult. A 2/1 hexproof + first strike is pretty scary for most removal-based legacy decks; the perfect mana (albeit ETB) is scary for the rest as it decreases mulligans.

ETB tapped and small body are big deals though. It's why Ghitu Encampment never saw play. Otherwise this thing clocks as slowly as Mishra's Factory, except it ETB tapped and costs more to activate. So in practice it will be even slower (because you won't activate as often). As you know, Factory's speed was historically a problem because it gives opponent forever to sculpt a lucky hand to bust through Standstill and win the fight. Speed of the threat matters because it increases losses to luck. Landstill was glad to finally cut Factory for better mana & better clocks.

There are already other blue ETB-tapped manland duals that don't see play. Most are bigger. The UG one already has hexproof. The UB and UW ones have evasion. I played 1 Celestial Colonnade in Landstill when it was first printed, but cut it over a decade ago. Too slow and ETB tapped is a big problem. Standstill already wins the lategame; it needs untapped lands early to stabilize. Think about how bad Mystic Sanctuary is.

Creeping Tar Pit is the best, and miles better than this UR land.

For UR Dreadstill you can't play Tar Pit, but even Cloudform seems better than playing a non-cantripping blue UU enchantment to protect a UR 2/1 manland. If you depend on a blue enchantment, why not cast Cloudform for your hexproof threat? It gains evasion and has some small chance of flipping into 12/12.

Returning to the discussion about UW, the best manland they have is still just Hall of Storm Giants, which means that their manland slots are going to Otawara, which means that you're offloading the manland function to Timeless Dragon.

Is that a bug or a feature? Timeless Dragon is a great threat, especially with Currency Converter. It also means your "manland" slot can choose to fix for untapped basic vs tapped nonbasic.

When you're trying to win with Dreadnought, you need to be on top of identifying useful cards and adapting to incorporate new printings - especially when their mechanisms directly attack static netdeck patterns. So when you see trends like Beanstalk (aka Counterbalance/Hymn 2.0) going around with 4-5c manabases killing diversity like it does, Shadow and Doomsday and Tomb hemorrhaging life total...and then you're getting fed UR cards constantly that all do damage...at a time when you should cast Price of Progress...maybe the gut instinct shouldn't be "now is the time to go white with Thrull!"

Good point. This meta is easily hated on by Price of Progress and begging for Blood Moon decks (so you also don't want to lose to Blood Moon).

Although another trend is ETB value: Initiative, Scam elementals, Bowmasters, Thassa combos, Yorion blink, Stoneforge Kaldra, The One Ring... these are all hated on by Thrull. Thrull attacks a lot of the meta, just under a different axis. Not losing to Blood Moon/Price of Progress is big, so UW looks better than Bant. Removal-heavy fair midrange is common, so it's also a good time to pivot off 2-for-1 Nought towards other enablers.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-07-2024, 07:37 AM

Of the lists I've been putting together this one I think is the closest to ready, Combines Vesuvan Drifter and Coat

Vesuvan Drifter
Cryptic Coat
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Eater of Days
Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Subtlety
Endurence
Force of Will
Worldly Tutor
Ponder
Brainstorm
Hide in Plain Sight
Stifle
Scroll of Fate
Dress Down

Essense Flux
1 Emrakul

Fetches
Island
Hedge Maze

I need to work out the specific card splits, but I think having a bunch of compact combos there where you can use worldly tutor or brainstorm to set up a cloaked/drifted Emrakul I think has potential, but would need a third color either for bowmasters to to counter bowmasters.
Maybe it could use Elvish Farsight in place of Brainstorm to try and just not draw enough cards?

FTW

02-07-2024, 09:13 AM

I've tried the Worldly Tutor + Vesuvan Drifter thing and it's a lot better with Emrakul (especially in an Ancient Tomb Show & Tell deck) than with Dreadnought.

Worldly Tutor setting up Cryptic Coat / Cloudform looks like a more promising interaction with Dreadnought. Tutor can also get Uro (then fetch the UG surveil land to put Uro in graveyard) so you can escape Uro sooner. Or you can EOT Tutor + Dress Down, draw the Dreadnought/Uro, then untap and play it.

Eater of Days seems bad. You already have enough action at 3-4 mana and better threats. A low cmc card draw play - like Questing Druid or Sylvan Library (arrange top card) seems better.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-07-2024, 10:09 AM

but have you tried to cloak and flicker?

Fox

02-07-2024, 10:53 AM

but have you tried to cloak and flicker?

What is this supposed to accomplish exactly? Exiling a face-down does not trigger face-upping, nor does it return to play face-down.

SnT is easier than tap Scroll of Fate, put down Ugin 8cmc or Emmy or w/e and channel Touch the Sprirt realm....but this is manifest, not cloak.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-07-2024, 11:02 AM

The point would be turn turn faceup either a utility creature with an ETB you cared about, or Emrakul

Fox

02-07-2024, 11:12 AM

The point would be turn turn faceup either a utility creature with an ETB you cared about, or Emrakul

SnT with/without Aeon Bridge stuff is less variance and less mana intensive. If you wanted to cheat in PWs, Planebound Accomplice has been out for a while, and you can dump in Karn wish Sundial and perm them.

If you wanted to do the face-down 3-piece stuff, Scroll is still the best as it disperses mana cost over 2 turns. Cloak thing like the 3G sorcery are too ambitious.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-07-2024, 11:23 AM

As always you miss the point, which is that these cards do things when they're not comboing, while also having combo applications.

Fox

02-07-2024, 11:40 AM

As always you miss the point, which is that these cards do things when they're not comboing, while also having combo applications.

I mean you're talking about a 4cmc sorcery, which requires mass copies to function properly. It's not really doing anything for extended periods because of its mana cost, where you'd be praying that your hand wasn't clogged with extra copies.

You have to stay alive to cast it (white or black removal and countermagic would be mandatory). Thus we enter the sequence of dead to Wasteland + can't assemble mana vs Chalice/Moon + Bowmaster passive issues.

To compete with ideas like these, the effect either needs to be hidden in the manabase (Mosswort Bridge) or more aggressively costed. Modal utility, such as landcycling, would also be acceptable on a combo piece.

While Aeon Bridge isn't a serious deck, they embrace the cheese and accept the inability to play a normal game. A 4 mana sorcery that makes a pair of 2/2's doesn't turn on access to conventional/normal magic win %, but it does compromise ability to cheese.

To do little-to-nothing on the path to 4 mana is best accomplished by Supreme Verdict.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-07-2024, 12:16 PM

I mean you're talking about a 4cmc sorcery, which requires mass copies to function properly. It's not really doing anything for extended periods because of its mana cost, where you'd be praying that your hand wasn't clogged with extra copies.

You have to stay alive to cast it (white or black removal and countermagic would be mandatory). Thus we enter the sequence of dead to Wasteland + can't assemble mana vs Chalice/Moon + Bowmaster passive issues.

To compete with ideas like these, the effect either needs to be hidden in the manabase (Mosswort Bridge) or more aggressively costed. Modal utility, such as landcycling, would also be acceptable on a combo piece.

While Aeon Bridge isn't a serious deck, they embrace the cheese and accept the inability to play a normal game. A 4 mana sorcery that makes a pair of 2/2's doesn't turn on access to conventional/normal magic win %, but it does compromise ability to cheese.

To do little-to-nothing on the path to 4 mana is best accomplished by Supreme Verdict.

Level with me: Do you actually read posts?

Fox

02-07-2024, 12:24 PM

Level with me: Do you actually read posts?

Yes I do. A 4 mana sorcery that makes 2x 2/2s is not good enough for legacy. It does nothing effective in this format if it isn't comboing. It's unplayable.

Let us contrast this to Verdict. Pitches to FoW/FoN/Solitude (modal). Resets game at 4 mana + always resolves.

FTW

02-07-2024, 12:25 PM

As always you miss the point, which is that these cards do things when they're not comboing, while also having combo applications.

Imho the bigger practical issue is you have too many "cool things" to do at 3-4 mana and not enough at 1-2 cmc.

If you try to turn that list of cards into a Legacy decklist, the mana curve will be a mess. The easiest cuts are at 4cmc: Eater of Days & Hide in Plain Sight. Save those slower fun interactions for Commander.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-07-2024, 01:24 PM

Yes I do.
You don't, if you did, you won't have responded with this:

A 4 mana sorcery that makes 2x 2/2s is not good enough for legacy. It does nothing effective in this format if it isn't comboing. It's unplayable.

Let us contrast this to Verdict. Pitches to FoW/FoN/Solitude (modal). Resets game at 4 mana + always resolves.
Even FTW is finally getting wise to your gimmick of never actually replying to the content presented. This chain is my fault for thinking, maybe just mayb,e you asked a question simple enough that it could be engaged with.

As always, just fuck off. You provide nothing of value. You have no understanding of the cards. Your opinions are exhausting. Your input is unwanted.

Fox

02-07-2024, 01:49 PM

You don't, if you did, you won't have responded with this:

Even FTW is finally getting wise to your gimmick of never actually replying to the content presented. This chain is my fault for thinking, maybe just mayb,e you asked a question simple enough that it could be engaged with.

As always, just fuck off. You provide nothing of value. You have no understanding of the cards. Your opinions are exhausting. Your input is unwanted.

You put forth a list which tries to use the overarching theme of using Dreadnought's rate as a quad strength Dark Ritual, achieved through the SnT-like pathway. There are many problems with this pathway (lack of interaction, high variance, high mana requirements, high mana vulnerability). You've also chosen to propose this when Ice-Fang cannot be used to somewhat fix some of these problems due to the existence of Bowmaster.

It's not that you fail to demonstrate how you're going to stay in the game this long and how your mana is going to be popping off at the same time - you also fail to explain how a 4 mana sorcery is going to restart the game/invalidate the happenings of the first 3 turns. It makes a pair of 2/2s and you have to pass the turn and then if you had a combo piece in the top 6 and untap with it, maybe the combo can work. The backup plan is zero ways to distract removal from your Skill Borrower-type dude (who should just be a SnT).

Across all decks in the format a 4 mana spell must be capable invalidating the preceding turns. A pair of 2/2s does not do this.

Cease and desist. Hide is Plain Sight isn't playable - it's so bad we dont even have to playtest it to know how it performs. Stop floating this detritus in a competitive discourse.

Start again with Fact of Fiction. At least show you're trying. It would an upgrade to having crappy ideas, and responding to valid critique with content-bereft personal attacks with colorful language.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-07-2024, 02:00 PM

As always, just fuck off. You provide nothing of value. You have no understanding of the cards. Your opinions are exhausting. Your input is unwanted.

FTW

02-07-2024, 03:01 PM

The point would be turn turn faceup either a utility creature with an ETB you cared about, or Emrakul

Flickering a facedown Dreadnought, Uro or Eater is bad news. Dreadnought can already go faceup for 1 colorless uncounterably without using the stack or needing a spell to turn it up.

So what does it help with? It would trigger Endurance/Subtlety ETB (but why cloak those in the first place?). Emrakul is already better with Drifter or SnT than with Cloak + Flicker, and that's a different deck anyway.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-07-2024, 03:16 PM

Flickering a facedown Dreadnought, Uro or Eater is bad news. Dreadnought can already go faceup for 1 colorless uncounterably without using the stack or needing a spell to turn it up.

So what does it help with? It would trigger Endurance/Subtlety ETB (but why cloak those in the first place?). Emrakul is already better with Drifter or SnT than with Cloak + Flicker, and that's a different deck anyway.

Flickering Dreadnought or Uro is plan C, You're doing it because they paid the ward on a removal spell and you also have a backup stifle effect.
What you're using it for is When you cast Coat/Hide and you ended up cloaking any other permanent off the top. Or, because this is also a Drafter/Worldly tutor deck, you have set up the Emrakul on the top and you get to flicker it from a 2/2 into a 15/15. And since you're an Endurence Subtlety deck, having up 1 mana and a 2/2 now represents: Subtlety, Endurence, Stifle, or Dreadnought.
The thing about show and tell is that every build I've seen of it, weather omni tell or sneakNShow is that the deck isn't doing anything when it's not assembling A+B. Here the options begin at Dreadnought on 2, Making several 2/2s of Coat and Hide to always be threatening something better.

Fox

02-07-2024, 06:59 PM

The thing about show and tell is that every build I've seen of it, weather omni tell or sneakNShow is that the deck isn't doing anything when it's not assembling A+B. Here the options begin at Dreadnought on 2, Making several 2/2s of Coat and Hide to always be threatening something better.

You do realize your deck idea doesn't do anything until you assemble A then B (or B then A) right? We're not an A + B combo, we have to follow a sequence, unlike SnT/thing in hand or Painter/Grindstone. Show and Tell is much more threatening when they're not "doing anything" because an opposing deck can lose at any point after the cantripping has united A + B in a hidden zone (hand).

Let's contrast this to Hide in Plain Sight: you tapped down 4 mana to cast a sorcery...and then you're out of mana and you pass the turn with 2x 2/2s that cannot be defended except by FoW/FoN. Compare this to SnT (a deck with much more fast mana, which likely has 5 mana when you only have 4): even if they happen to be capped at 4 mana they're leaving behind a Sneak Attack; one of the hardest card types to interact with...and when they untap and activate it, they're going to invalidate all the turns preceding (recall that all 4cmc cards in legacy must do this, particularly if they lack modal costs). In contrast, if by some miracle you untap with one or both 2/2s (the easiest card type to interact with), you don't know what you were hitting in the top 6....and if you're trying to fix that with a Mirage tutor, you would be explicitly telling your opponent what you did with Worldly Tutor...and gave them a perfect understanding of the situation (including the sequence). Even if the opponent can only kill one thing with 50% odds to guess the right 2/2, you still just told them exactly how to stop you.

Legacy is a format of 1 mana kill spells. Ward 2 is pretty meaningless by land drop 4 - it's basically flavor text. It's also important to remember that right now there's a fair amount of Stifle being played by Beanstalk especially, and a lot of flicker effects will try to return to play off an end step trigger. It's also important to remember that your ideas of setting this stuff up are playing heavily into Chalice (BS/Ponder/Tutor). Let us suppose you set up HiPS with Tutor, you went down 2 cards to make 2 objects; so if the opponent answers those with say 2 cards...you didn't pull ahead, despite resolving a 4 mana card...and uh now we're back to the self 2-for-1 deck using 1-for-1 cantrips, which don't add velocity to repeating the multi-card sequential thing.

The competitive assessment is don't do what you're thing about -> build Aeon Bridge -> when going to build Aeon Bridge, just make SnT instead. That's the pathway of increasing winrate. If you really wanted to do this blink and tell via face-down Dreadnought pathway, you should have been doing this once Scroll and Touch the Spirit Realm were printed - everything else in legacy has gotten better since that point in time. HiPS is not going to close that gap, it's going to shut the door on you.