[Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought [Archive] - Page 4

Fox

02-08-2024, 11:21 AM

Cutting to 18 lands while adding 4cmc combo pieces is probably a bad idea.

There's room to do 2 things or even 3 things. The question is if you can do them well or end up diluting the strategy.

A few pages back we looked at combining Scam & Dreadnought. You CAN do it but both plans get too diluted - win % goes up splitting them into 2 different decks.

The 35ish cards above look like a decent start. But if you cut some to make room for things like Vesuvan Drifter + Emrakul + Hide in Plain Sight + flicker effect + Eater of Days.... You could force it all together, but are you just watering down all the strategies and losing interaction? The mana curve would be a mess too.

Those 5-7 slots could go to "good cards" instead:
2 Legolas's Quick Reflexes
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Sylvan Library
2 Once Upon A Time

Reflexes + Dreadnought is kind of hilarious. Precombat Legolas - too late to respond! -> - 12 target creature -> -12 target player

The splits right now are 35% odds of Bowmaster, 34% chance of Tomb. Let's say 50% of Tomb decks have Chalice, you've got huge problems every other match. What you're doing is much less important than what *is* going to happen to you.

OUaT and Lorien would be better positioned. Mana isn't good enough to support Otawara so Brazen x2 also a forced move (however more is needed vs Chalice). Notably these forced moves do not deal with a Bowmancer.

FTW

02-08-2024, 11:49 AM

The splits right now are 35% odds of Bowmaster, 34% chance of Tomb. Let's say 50% of Tomb decks have Chalice, you've got huge problems every other match. What you're doing is much less important than what *is* going to happen to you.

OUaT and Lorien would be better positioned. Mana isn't good enough to support Otawara so Brazen x2 also a forced move (however more is needed vs Chalice). Notably these forced moves do not deal with a Bowmancer.

Didn't post a manabase. In UG I was picturing something like this

//20 Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Tropical Island
4 Island
2 Forest
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Otawara, Soaring City
+ 2 Wasteland / other utility land

2 Boseiju + at least 1 Borrower MD are outs to Chalice and Bridge, then FoV postboard.

There seems to be room for 1 Otawara vs 2nd Trop.

OuaT & Lorien are probably a better use of those slots. But if the deck has MD Worldly Tutor then there could be singleton targets. Need something to justify the Tutor (otherwise cut them, make more space).

2 Legolas seems very strong, something unique green can offer Dreadnought. Split Second + Hexproof + removal (ambush attacker or ping while attacking) solves all sorts of problems at once.

Another interesting lategame option is to have 1 Academy Ruins in the deck with Cryptic Coat. Can move Dreadnought from graveyard zone to top of library and cloak it (no draw step lost). Coat can repeat as often as needed. Ruins brings back Coat too. Grinds out all non-exile removal without needing much space.

This works a little better in UG Dreadstill, where you could use Elvish Reclaimer to tutor Academy Ruins (loop Dreadnought + Coat) and Karn to tutor Crucible (Ruins + Crucible + Wasteland inevitability) and have 1-of Wasteland 1-of Saga to loop with Crucible, maybe 1 Expedition Map too. But white exile removal is still a problem.

Legolas also gets better with Reclaimer: double activate in one turn, can tap to Bolt something at any time.

If cloaking/Manifesting cards and running creature tutors, Den Protector might be worth a look. Traverse the Ulvenwald would be easy to turn on with Dreadnought & Dress Down in the deck.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-08-2024, 12:15 PM

What would you run instead?

Start with coat and work from there

Fox

02-08-2024, 02:12 PM

Didn't post a manabase. In UG I was picturing something like this

//20 Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Tropical Island
4 Island
2 Forest
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Otawara, Soaring City
+ 2 Wasteland / other utility land

2 Boseiju + at least 1 Borrower MD are outs to Chalice and Bridge, then FoV postboard.

There seems to be room for 1 Otawara vs 2nd Trop.

OuaT & Lorien are probably a better use of those slots. But if the deck has MD Worldly Tutor then there could be singleton targets. Need something to justify the Tutor (otherwise cut them, make more space).

2 Legolas seems very strong, something unique green can offer Dreadnought. Split Second + Hexproof + removal (ambush attacker or ping while attacking) solves all sorts of problems at once.

Another interesting lategame option is to have 1 Academy Ruins in the deck with Cryptic Cloak. Can move Dreadnought from graveyard zone to top of library and cloak it (no draw step lost). Cloak can repeat as often as needed. Ruins brings back Cloak too. Grinds out all non-exile removal without needing much space.

This works a little better in UG Dreadstill, where you could use Elvish Reclaimer to tutor Academy Ruins (loop Dreadnought + cloak) and Karn to tutor Crucible (Ruins + Crucible + Wasteland inevitability) and have 1-of Wasteland 1-of Saga to loop with Crucible, maybe 1 Expedition Map too. But white exile removal is still a problem.

Legolas also gets better with Reclaimer: double activate in one turn, can tap to Bolt something at any time.

If cloaking/Manifesting cards and running creature tutors, Den Protector might be worth a look.
You posted 18 or 20 lands total which means 8x U Fetch and 6x U sources. This is implicit in either scenario, 18 or 20.

In either case you're running at a 13.9% fail rate to obtain U in an opening hand (this %age does not mean you have a second land, a Ponder, or are willing to keep with a 1-land Brainstorm hand; this is the fail rate of the most optimal conditions). This is a rate worth attacking with off-color finds right color (Lorien) and/or OUaT, particularly when pairing such a mana base with high mana costs.

One of the issues discussed many times is that borrowing classic Delver mana base (18 lands) is that you need to match their cmc splits (you're overcosted vs what this manabase can provide).

The 20 land approach you've submitted is more correct given how heavily you're trying to hang around 3cmc. However you're still asking too much out of cantrip cartel vs every Chalice or Bowmaster [50% odds] with little counterplay (the consequence of playing UG). While the mana reliability is there (basics), you're still locked under "I can't draw cards" vs [insert effect]....which would be fine if you were like UG EurekaTell and could just win on the spot.

On the Dreadnought specialization stuff, you're going to get Surgical'd. It is important to avoid being left with enablers that enable nothing). The Surgical threat is another reason why larger mana builds of Nought use Karn.

LQR is fine, but Veil would be better vs combo. In either case however, you had to first do the big guy thing. The hard part here is that you did nothing to exhaust opposing resources before this point. Den Protector is a sweet card, but slow/expensive. The skulk-like text is relevant vs initiative (as long as you counter the 2/3 flying hippogriff thing), but the floor of this card maxes you out at 1x copy.

Concerning UG Dreadstill, we wouldn't run Standstill due to the removal issues of UG (particularly with Ice-Fang pseudo-removal matching up poorly vs Bowmancer). Reclaimer would be in there, but as previously discussed, it's a little too much to do all this stuff to make a Lotus Field so that we can have 2x Verdict without really adding a 3rd color. While the deck is quite fun, it is not good sadly. It's pretty telling when bending over backwards for Verdict has to be considered.
^Throwing Uro around Stiflenought-style, even with suspect mana was better than this, but now you have to deviate much more from Dreadnought things to unlock yourself from Bowmaster passive (and these builds never had a good plan for Tomb). Minimizing the Bowman passive damage before the Uro phase (Lorien/OUaT) is an improvement. The treecycler guy is fine at 1-2x.

While the games are unlikely to go up to 6 mana (7 vs Daze) very often, Veil would be better at avoiding the passive during Lorien hardcasts. Veil also better at lower cmcs with Brainstorm in deck vs passive....still, Veil has issues vs Tomb and you're still trying to reverse an advantage bar/playing from behind.

We can go around and around with different UG ideas, but they all end up in the same place where you can't navigate Bowman passive and Tomb. Add color 3 + higher cmc plans and the mana crumbles under the pressure. Add cantrip cartel and the sequence in inescapable.

Better matchup profiles are needed vs Tomb, Bowman, Beans, removal-based fair, Loam/mana denial. These builds can't rely on farming Delver and Thassa to top16s finishes anymore. This all starts with getting off cantrip cartel and flipping bad matchups.

FTW

02-08-2024, 04:03 PM

I posted "20ish lands", then advised against going to 18. 4Dogs wanted to cut to 18. Clark wanted to cut lands/Lorien earlier too.

You say UG can't handle Chalice. 2 Boseiju + 1 Borrower = 3 MD 2-mana answers. Could add 2nd Borrower. SB can support Force of Vigor. Uro, Endurance & Coat can all win through Chalice @ 1 & Chalice @ 2 & 3ball. If opening hand really needs cantrips, could Force it. Between 4 FoW + 2 Boseiju + 1-2 Borrower, you're twice as likely to have an answer as they are to open T1 Chalice. Chalice should be OK.

Boseiju + Borrower + FoV answer Beans too.

Mana denial should be fine with 6 basics.

Bowmasters is a much bigger problem.

Deck could diversify draw effects: OuaT, Lorien, Brainstorm, Ponder, Worldly Tutor/Traverse the Ulvenwald (fix colors from G, Dreadnought + Dress Down deck gets easy Delirium). Could consider replacing some Brainstorm with Preordain for better T1 fixing and less Bowmasters risk.

Dress Down & Borrower stop Bowmaster passive better than Veil (army still grows under Veil). Could have Veils SB. It's dead in many matches. LQR kills Bowmaster.

Could consider playing more Subtlety (+Stifle combo) to answer dangerous accelerated creatures: Initiative, Turbo Muxus, scammed Grief. It also slows down Bowman and diversifies wincons.

LQR protects against white & red removal, Veil doesn't. LQR even protects Uro from Karakas. Split Second is big because you can cast proactively, not only reactively, and you always win (Veil is reactive and loses to 2nd answer in response). LQR works with small guys too (Endurance, Borrower).

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-08-2024, 04:19 PM

How many answers can they afford when Ward is taxing each one?

FTW

02-08-2024, 04:26 PM

How many answers can they afford when Ward is taxing each one?

If your cloak enabler costs 3-4 mana and their removal costs 1-2 mana then they can afford to pay the tax.

Edit: It also loses Ward when you flip. Much less reliable protection than Cloudform

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-08-2024, 04:42 PM

If your cloak enabler costs 3-4 mana and their removal costs 1-2 mana then they can afford to pay the tax.

Edit: It also loses Ward when you flip. Much less reliable protection than Cloudform

And then that's their turn. You untap, bounce the cloak and make another. Or you have the second one.
but what I was addressing was you saying that veil only stopped one answer: If you spend 3 on a coat, 4 with veil. Even 5 with Hidden they need to spend: 1 For removal, 2 for ward, another 1 for removal, and another 2 for ward. That's six, which is more than 5. We're also assuming U/B answers Solitude is 2 cards and +2 Mana, 7 if they want to actually cast it. This is prohibitive.

The coat is already making waves, and having a deck that can actually put something good under it is just bonus.

E: Even if you are not sold on Plain Sight (which, fine, cut it.) then you should be sold on Coat. Clark was talking about Bant lists earlier. Add Stoneforge. Add Coat.

FTW

02-09-2024, 02:05 AM

Hide in Plain Sight, they can just remove over 2 turns: 3 per turn. 2/2 is slow. They have time & mana left to do other things. If you flip, it loses Ward.

Making 2 2/2s for 3G is not impressive, even with Ward 2. Compare it to planeswalkers that make tokens, or to Collected Company (which sees no Legacy play).

Re: Veil. You're not wasting Veil/LQR to protect a vanilla 2/2 manifested land anyway. It's to protect Dreadnought, and that won't have Ward.

Remember if your plan is to never flip then it's just a 2/2. Opponent plays a bigger creature vs Stiflenought deck with little removal, and they don't need to kill the 2/2.

Coat is better. But reusing Coat costs 5 per turn vs 3-4 to kill, so even if they do spend removal they're ahead on tempo.

But they don't have to pay the Ward: Abrupt Decay, Sheoldred's Edict, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Powder Keg, Brotherhood's End, and other effects kill them without paying Ward.

Answering Coat instead also dodges Ward: FoW, FoN, Daze, PEnding, Leyline Binding, Collector Ouphe, Abrade, Doorkeeper Thrull, FoV, etc.

Coat is good, but it's better in control. In a deck like this you can't remove opponent's bigger creatures. You also can't afford to play a slow game making Coat over and over. Dreadnought works better with Cloudform, which still protects after the flip. Coat seems better in a controlling deck with stable mana and removal for bigger threats.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-09-2024, 06:12 AM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-09-2024, 09:49 AM

Hide in Plain Sight, they can just remove over 2 turns: 3 per turn. 2/2 is slow. They have time & mana left to do other things. If you flip, it loses Ward.
If my opponent is taking two turns to answer what I did in one and spending more mana than I did to do so I am comming out ahead.

Making 2 2/2s for 3G is not impressive, even with Ward 2. Compare it to planeswalkers that make tokens, or to Collected Company (which sees no Legacy play).

What makes it impressive is that these tokens are 2/2s that all have the potential to win win the game on the spot. The op is forced to at the very least represent removal because until they don't you are representing a phyrexian dreadnought. And if you used Worldly tutor, your are representing at least 14 power. You might have found 24 power.

Remember if your plan is to never flip then it's just a 2/2. Opponent plays a bigger creature vs Stiflenought deck with little removal, and they don't need to kill the 2/2.
This is where I think you're biggest misunderstanding of the card is. They have to answer the face-downs as face downs. It is much worse for the op if they answer them face up. And, as face downs they represent anywhere from 2 to 12 worth of power, so if you attack with them they can't just leave them be because you're threatening to end the game each time. They also can't block for the same reasons. The window for the op is when you tapped out to make them.

Coat is better. But reusing Coat costs 5 per turn vs 3-4 to kill, so even if they do spend removal they're ahead on tempo.

But they don't have to pay the Ward: Abrupt Decay, Sheoldred's Edict, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Powder Keg, Brotherhood's End, and other effects kill them without paying Ward.

Assuming you've stopped talking about Plain Sight here, all of these answers still leave behind the coat, putting you up on cards. And Brotherhood's End doesn't kill a dreadnought since it's a sorcery. They choose artifacts, you leave it a creature. They choose damage, you turn it up into a dreadnought.

Answering Coat instead also dodges Ward: FoW, FoN, Daze, PEnding, Leyline Binding, Collector Ouphe, Abrade, Doorkeeper Thrull, FoV, etc.
Answering coat leaves me with the creature, again a two for one. And again you list answers that don't work: Doorkeeper thrull? Ok yes. I will play my dreadnought faceup.

Coat is good, but it's better in control. In a deck like this you can't remove opponent's bigger creatures. You also can't afford to play a slow game making Coat over and over. Dreadnought works better with Cloudform, which still protects after the flip. Coat seems better in a controlling deck with stable mana and removal for bigger threats.
I don't need to remove my op's bigger creatures. I have the biggest one.

FTW

02-09-2024, 11:18 AM

If my opponent is taking two turns to answer what I did in one and spending more mana than I did to do...

What makes it impressive is that these tokens are 2/2s that all have the potential to win win the game on the spot. The op is forced to at the very least represent removal because until they don't you are representing a phyrexian dreadnought. And if you used Worldly tutor, your are representing at least 14 power. You might have found 24 power.

Not 2 full turns. If you spent 4 mana (+1 on tutor too?), they answer for 3, they can do other things. If your deck made no threats turn 1-2 and theirs did, they're already ahead.

The 12/12 is a real threat. But they don't need 2 turns or big mana to manage that. They only need 1 mana up for Plow / Push / Solitude (or 2 for Decay / Abrade / Wear Tear / Borrower / Leyline / Touch the Spirit Realm). If you flip, they kill for 1 mana without paying Ward. If you don't flip, they can take 2-4 and kill more slowly. The problem is Dreadnought doesn't keep Ward when it needs the protection most.

This is where I think you're biggest misunderstanding of the card is. They have to answer the face-downs as face downs. It is much worse for the op if they answer them face up.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding a rule here but don't you need to flip up in the Declare Blockers step (when you have priority, before combat damage, before opponent gets priority)? It doesn't use the stack but does need priority. Opponent gets priority after you and can spend 1 mana removal to stop taking 12/losing their blocker. Ward is gone.

Assuming you've stopped talking about Plain Sight here, all of these answers still leave behind the coat, putting you up on cards. And Brotherhood's End doesn't kill a dreadnought since it's a sorcery.

Talking about the cloaked 2/2s in general. Also listed answers for Coat after. Brothershood End answers HiPS after you tap out to play it. With Coat it could kill Coat or the 2/2 (if it's not Dreadnought or while tapped out).

With Coat opponent has many choices: kill 2/2 with effects that dodge Ward, answer Coat on the stack (no 2/2 created), counter Coat trigger (no 2/2 created), answer Coat on battlefield while tapped out (it uses up a lot of mana), play bigger threat.

I don't need to remove my op's bigger creatures. I have the biggest one.

Top card won't always be Dreadnought. They just need to race a 3/2, and only need removal if you flip to Dreadnought (loses Ward). Otherwise Coat cloaking random cards is something they can race.

That's why Coat seems better as a control finisher.

If you're doing a 2-card combo to make Dreadnought the top card and cloak it into play, Cloudform protects it better.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-09-2024, 11:38 AM

Not 2 full turns. If you spent 4 mana (+1 on tutor too?), they answer for 3, they can do other things. If your deck made no threats turn 1-2 and theirs did, they're already ahead.
How did they answer for 3? They could answer ONE 2/2 for 3, and hope they picked the right one.

The 12/12 is a real threat. But they don't need 2 turns or big mana to manage that. They only need 1 mana up for Plow / Push / Solitude (or 2 for Decay / Abrade / Wear Tear / Borrower / Leyline / Touch the Spirit Realm). If you flip, they kill for 1 mana without paying Ward. If you don't flip, they can take 2-4 and kill more slowly. The problem is Dreadnought doesn't keep Ward when it needs the protection most.
Isn't this true for any method of putting a dreadnought in play?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding a rule here but don't you need to flip up in the Declare Blockers step (when you have priority, before combat damage, before opponent gets priority)? It doesn't use the stack but does need priority. Opponent gets priority after you and can spend 1 mana removal to stop taking 12/losing their blocker. Ward is gone.
So lets say three cards. Bolt, Swords, and Arupt Decay (which no one plays anymore, come on). Bolt can't kill a dreadnought. So your op has to cast it when its face down. So they have to pay 1 for bolt. Then, they have to pay 2 for ward. So only once the op comits the 3 mana you can turn the 2/2 face up and blank the bolt.
Swords, can kill either, but you don't want to swords a dreadnought. 12 life is a lot of time you're giving up. So you do it face down and go through the same tree.
Abrupt decay is the same no matter which dreadnought enabler we're using, but we can play around it and just leave the dreadnought face down. Op can't commit the decay until you turn face up, so it's 4 power you get to keep swinging with until you're ready to go for it.

Talking about the cloaked 2/2s in general. Also listed answers for Coat after. Brothershood End answers HiPS after you tap out to play it. With Coat it could kill Coat or the 2/2 (if it's not Dreadnought or while tapped out).

With Coat opponent has many choices: kill 2/2 with effects that dodge Ward, answer Coat on the stack (no 2/2 created), counter Coat trigger (no 2/2 created), answer Coat on battlefield while tapped out (it uses up a lot of mana), play bigger threat. So End is either blank or card negative vs coat?
again, counter magic applies to every dreadnought enabler so why are you acting like it has some unique power vs coat?

Top card won't always be Dreadnought. They just need to race a 3/2, and only need removal if you flip to Dreadnought (loses Ward). Otherwise Coat cloaking random cards is something they can race.

Between brainstorm and tutor, there's a good chance it will be. Plus dreadnought isn't your only creature, it's just the best one. You have other things to cloak.

FTW

02-09-2024, 12:06 PM

How did they answer for 3? They could answer ONE 2/2 for 3, and hope they picked the right one.

I meant 3 per turn (over 2 turns). As in they don't waste 2 FULL turns like you claimed. On both turns they have other mana left & permanents played from turns 1-2, while the UG deck played no early threats.

They can answer & make progress, facing only 4 damage from a 4-mana play if you don't flip.

And that's if they don't use the other methods that just ignore Ward.

Isn't this true for any method of putting a dreadnought in play?

They cost less than 4 mana.

So End is either blank or card negative vs coat?

If you Worldly Tutored you spent 2 cards, so they're neutral or ahead. If they play a bigger creature, they don't need to play any answers unless you flip to 12/12 (then just 1-for-1 the 12/12).

If you didn't set up the top card, it's usually not a 12/12 and they can race without answering it.

again, counter magic applies to every dreadnought enabler so why are you acting like it has some unique power vs coat?

I'm not. But most cost 1-2 mana.

You've been saying these 3-4 mana cloak enablers are worth it because Ward 2 buys tempo or protects against multiple answers. My point is there are a ton of ways to answer without paying the Ward 2, so Ward is unreliable protection. You may not get the tempo or cards back, trading down. Better off using a 1-2 mana enabler if it still dies to Fatal Push.

At least with Cloudform the protection is better. Hexproof. Keeps it face up.

Between brainstorm and tutor, there's a good chance it will be. Plus dreadnought isn't your only creature, it's just the best one. You have other things to cloak.

The other ones cost 3-4 mana to flip up and are smaller, so opponent has more tempo to pay the Ward cost, find answers, or play better threats. Dreadnought is the real threat.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-09-2024, 12:36 PM

I meant 3 per turn (over 2 turns). As in they don't waste 2 FULL turns like you claimed. On both turns they have other mana left & permanents played from turns 1-2, while the UG deck played no early threats.

They can answer & make progress, facing only 4 damage from a 4-mana play if you don't flip.

And that's if they don't use the other methods that just ignore Ward.

I'm still going to do it.

They cost less than 4 mana.
Daze costs zero and so does force. I assume this means no one plays any spells that cost 1, right?

If you Worldly Tutored you spent 2 cards, so they're neutral or ahead. If they play a bigger creature, they don't need to play any answers unless you flip to 12/12 (then just 1-for-1 the 12/12).

If you didn't set up the top card, it's usually not a 12/12 and they can race without answering it.

If they have a bigger creature then they need removal for my 12/12 and I'll cloak the next card.
If they don't have a creature that can race they lose when I make another cloak next turn or the turn after, or over the next fifty turns.

I'm not. But most cost 1-2 mana.

You are, it's all you've been talking about.

You've been saying these 3-4 mana cloak enablers are worth it because Ward 2 buys tempo or protects against multiple answers. My point is there are a ton of ways to answer without paying the Ward 2, so Ward is unreliable protection. You may not get the tempo or cards back, trading down. Better off using a 1-2 mana enabler if it still dies to Fatal Push.
If your point is that ward isn't hexproof then I don't care. It's better than other

At least with Cloudform the protection is better. Hexproof. Keeps it face up.
So when we're talking about coat, you always get to assume a miss. Now that we're talking about some other card we're assuming it's always a hit? Missing with Coat is better since it's repeatable. And if the CLoudform gets got (which can't happen to coat because of it's batterskull text) you lose the protection. Cloaks stay warded.

The other ones cost 3-4 mana to flip up and are smaller, so opponent has more tempo to pay the Ward cost, find answers, or play better threats. Dreadnought is the real threat.
They're all threats. That's why they're in the deck.

We're going in circles here. If you don't want to do it don't do it.

FTW

02-09-2024, 01:43 PM

Daze costs zero and so does force. I assume this means no one plays any spells that cost 1, right?

No one plays Cancel when other cards do the same for less mana, so mana cost matters. Why not play a 7-mana enabler?

HiPS costs 4 (+ 1 to tutor) to make a Dreadnought that dies to the same things as the 1-2 mana enablers.

Mana cost matters because Ward only has text if you have tempo; if you wasted tempo paying extra mana for effects, opponent had time to develop mana to negate Ward. If your enabler cost 2 extra & 2 turns slower, opponent has 2 extra to pay.

Still do it if you want. We're not telling you what to play. We're giving reasons why it's bad. You're still free to play it.

If they have a bigger creature then they need removal for my 12/12 and I'll cloak the next card.
If they don't have a creature that can race they lose when I make another cloak next turn or the turn after, or over the next fifty turns.

Coat is much better than HiPS.

But since this is Legacy and not Standard, it's much easier to race a 3/2 that costs 5 mana to redeploy.

Opponent only has to answer the creature if you flip into Dreadnought (hold up 0-2 mana). Otherwise they can just answer Coat or ignore both & race.

You are, it's all you've been talking about.
If your point is that ward isn't hexproof then I don't care. It's better than other

No, I've been talking about the many many ways opponent can interact without paying the Ward 2. If they don't need to pay extra, you're trading down using 3-4 mana enablers instead of 1-2 mana ones.

So when we're talking about coat, you always get to assume a miss. Now that we're talking about some other card we're assuming it's always a hit? Missing with Coat is better since it's repeatable.

For blind reveals, both will miss. That's why Cloudform doesn't see play either. Cloak is repeatable but consumes a ton of mana & tempo before finding a random Dreadnought.

But you've been talking about setting up the top card with Tutor or Brainstorm. If so, Cloudform works too.

If the CLoudform gets got (which can't happen to coat because of it's batterskull text) you lose the protection. Cloaks stay warded.

Dreadnought gets got while wearing the Coat (only 1 removal needed). Cloudform must be removed first, it demands 2 separate answers.

They're all threats. That's why they're in the deck.

Threats that cost 6-8 mana to be better than 2/2s (Coat/HiPS + flip 3-4 mana creature).

Dreadnought is much more threatening (bigger & cheaper), but opponent can still answer favorably.

Re: Removal on cloaked Dreadnought
StP, Fatal Push & Murderous Cut kill it face up at 1 mana.

Solitude & Snuff Out kill it face up for 0 mana.

Force of Vigor kills both Cloak + flipped Dreadnought for 0 mana.

Decay, Assassin's Trophy, Abrade, Drown in the Loch, Wear // Tear, Brazen Borrower, Leyline Binding, Touch the Spirit Realm all answer face-up Dreadnought for 2 mana.

Bolt is the one that must kill it face down and pay 2. But Bolt is dead vs Stifle+Nought, so even paying 3 to kill is pure upside.

The other instant answers ignore the Ward tax. If you don't flip, opponent just needs to hold up their 0-2 mana answer while proceeding with their own game plan. Their plan is faster than a 2/2 or 3/2, so they don't have to interact unless you flip.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-09-2024, 01:52 PM

No one plays Cancel in formats where other cards do the same for less mana, so mana cost matters. Why not play a 7-mana enabler?
So we can just stop here then, since Death's shadow costs 1 mana and is 1 card nothing else matters. Good talk.

I've addressed and answered the rest of your post since it's just a rehash. I like ward, I like repeatability and being up on cards. Don't care about the rest.

FTW

02-09-2024, 03:20 PM

So we can just stop here then, since Death's shadow costs 1 mana and is 1 card nothing else matters. Good talk.

Both that and the FoW/Daze arguments are ridiculous exaggerations. The point is you need adequate compensation for spending more mana than a cheaper effect.

Cancel is invalidated by Counterspell; Cryptic Command is not. It has powerful modes for the higher cost (still not enough to be Legacy playable though).

Cloaking Dreadnought is not adequate compensation. Opponent can easily ignore the Ward 2 tax. A 4-mana Dreadnought enabler needs to do more than HiPS. The 2/2s are slow on their own.

I've addressed and answered the rest of your post since it's just a rehash. I like ward, I like repeatability and being up on cards. Don't care about the rest.

My comment was repetitive. In summary your options are:
A) Leave face down. Has Ward 2, but slow 2/2 clock opponent can race, ignore or block.

B) Turn face up. Loses Ward and dies to all the same instant removal, except your enabler cost 3-4 instead of 1-2 so opponent is ahead on turns & mana.

Coat's repeatability is useful, but slow. To play slow grindy lines you need to be an interactive control deck stopping the faster & better things opponent does, or they win first.

But if you like it, feel free to play it and post your results.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-09-2024, 03:42 PM

When do they post league dumps? Tuesday's and Thursdays?
While you were writing the same post for the upteenth time I just went ahead with it and you can see the list on Tuesday.
Coatnought is good.

FTW

02-09-2024, 03:56 PM

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournaments/legacy#paper

This week's results are up. 1 Cryptic Cloak in Cephalid Breakfast, but don't see any Cloak-Nought yet.

If you do get good results, looking forward to hearing more.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-09-2024, 04:12 PM

FTW

02-09-2024, 05:47 PM

https://twitter.com/pissduggery/status/1755852003845230950?t=dEiASLz1LLdOUbiaE74nXg&s=19
Speaking of coat/dreadnought heres someone who went undefeated at their weekly with UWu dreadnought
E: now that I'm awake I can transcribe the list

//11 Creatures
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stoneforge mystic
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

//4 Stoneforge Targets
3 Cryptic Coat
1 Kaldra Compleat

//27 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Lorien Reveled
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Dress Down

//18 Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Stand
1 Wasteland
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Plains
2 Island

Missed that post earlier. Did you edit to add the list?

OK this looks a lot more viable than the UG Hide in Plain Sight + Worldly Tutor + Eater of Days stuff earlier.

White removal for bigger threats. Stoneforge for action on 2 mana. Multiple good threats if Dreadnought fails (Uro, Stoneforge Kaldra). None of the 4 mana stuff. I can see why that would do well.

Did you 5-0 with Bant or with the Hide in Plain Sight + Vesuvan Drifter + Worldly Tutor plan?

Edit: Some recent Bant lists on mtgtop8 have Strict Proctor main to hate on the meta. That's a huge trump card in the mirror -> stopping Stoneforge, Kaldra, and Coat (although it does turn on both player's Dreadnoughts). Those lists could easily swap Proctor for Thrull.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-09-2024, 06:51 PM

Missed that post earlier. Did you edit to add the list?

Yeah, that's what the E: means ;)

(The edit was just after I made the post underneath it(

FTW

02-11-2024, 11:34 AM

They have all the Legacy League 5-0 dumps up to Saturday, Saturday Challenge results, and Friday Prelim results. See same link above.

Friday had 2 Stiflenought 5-0s:
1 UW with 4x Doorkeeper Thrull (no other creatures other than Nought, no Coat)

1 Bant with Strict Proctor (no SFM or Coat)

Friday Prelim & Saturday Challenge both had 0 Dreadnoughts.

In all the online results so far, Coat only appears as a 1-of SFM target in Cephalid Breakfast.

Thrull might have potential, but playing only Dreadnought with it seems bad.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-11-2024, 01:28 PM

:(
They didn't post my list ?

Fox

02-11-2024, 03:36 PM

:(
They didn't post my list ?

There needs to be a critical mass of unique card names to guarantee getting listed. Otherwise it's a lottery.

FTW

02-11-2024, 05:55 PM

There needs to be a critical mass of unique card names to guarantee getting listed. Otherwise it's a lottery.

Oddly the same day (02-10) they posted 3 Turbo Goblins, including 2 identical lists from the same pilot.

The 2 Stiflenought lists posted (02-10) both look different from what 4Dogs was talking about. No SFM, no Cryptic Coat, no Worldly Tutor. No other day has any Dreadnoughts, so it must have been that day.

4Dogs can you post your list?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-12-2024, 09:50 AM

4Dogs can you post your list?

We can just skip to the end: You don't like Coat or Hidden.
I do like them, and played 3 coats 2 Hidden

FTW

02-12-2024, 09:57 AM

We can just skip to the end: You don't like Coat or Hidden.
I do like them, and played 3 coats 2 Hidden

What's your list? I'm surprised they didn't post it if it was that different.

I don't like Hide. I like Coat but think its suboptimal in Dreadnought without a good interactive plan. I'm also open to being proven wrong by good results.

Clark Kant

02-15-2024, 03:04 AM

The recent slew of 5-0s Dressnought had playing a playset of Doorkeeper Thrull is not a coincidence! I finally got some Doorkeeper Thrull and the card is really really good! Better than I expected and better than Slip. Between the Torpor Orb effect, the anti Batterskull tech, and the surprise flash 1/2 blocking, its always useful, even when not being used to enable the combo. I also found a couple of Daze to be very effective. As a 2 of, Daze becomes quite rare and is much more likely to surprise your opponent and counter a key spell for free. We have a fast clock, the early turns are key and Daze reigns supreme there. I revised my lists as a result…

Bant Dressnought 2024

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Daze
1 Slip Out the Back
1 Lorien Revealed

2 Prismatic Ending
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Doorkeeper Thrull

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

//Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
2 Doorkeeper Thrull
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pick Your Poison
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Vigor

Sultai Dressnought 2024

3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Slip Out the Back
2 Daze
1 Witherbloom Command
1 Lorien Revealed
1 Shelodred’s Edict

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Orcish Bowmasters
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

//Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer
2 Force of Vigor
1 Pick Your Poison
1 Fatal Push
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Force of Negation

I am sure most would prefer 1/1 split between FoN and Daze, especially since Daze is even more likely to surprise your opponent as a 1 of but I would absolutely 100% endorse always playing atleast one Daze at a minimum. The card becomes much stronger when its rare and unexpected.

FTW

02-15-2024, 05:54 PM

The Bant version looks good. Thrull has been performing well online.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-17-2024, 09:14 PM

https://twitter.com/DBatterskull/status/1758735666555535565?t=JLHm4ebrkLNeYhSScQHZ8w&s=19

FTW

02-17-2024, 09:25 PM

That looks even better cutting green and just running Murktide as a finisher instead of Uro. More stable mana. Daze + Wasteland mana denial plan makes more sense with many threats on 2 mana.

Clark Kant

02-19-2024, 09:18 PM

Boshnrolls recent Cryptic Coat Stoneforge Dressnought list performed very well…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlba6aTjXn4&pp=ygUJYm9zaG5yb2xs

4 Brainstorm
3 Cryptic Coat
3 Daze
3 Dress Down
4 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
1 Island
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Lórien Revealed
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Plains
4 Ponder
1 Savannah
3 Stifle
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD:
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Damping Sphere
1 Deafening Silence
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Negation
1 Hullbreacher
2 Hydroblast
1 Powder Keg
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Veil of Summer

I still really like Doorkeeper Thrull and sticking with that instead of Stoneforge as a hate piece rather than yet another finisher, but its a solid list.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-22-2024, 02:28 PM

https://mythicspoiler.com/pip/cards/silvershroudcostume.jpg

FTW

02-22-2024, 10:00 PM

Seems worse than Legolas's Quick Reflexes for a creature that already has trample.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-23-2024, 08:28 AM

Seems worse than Legolas's Quick Reflexes for a creature that already has trample.

It's colorless, moves, lasts longer than a turn, and weren't you the one who kept asking "What if they had bigger creatures?"

FTW

02-23-2024, 11:55 AM

It's colorless, moves, lasts longer than a turn, and weren't you the one who kept asking "What if they had bigger creatures?"

The shroud only lasts one turn, doesn't move, costs 2 mana, and doesn't have Split Second (can be responded to).

"What if they had bigger creatures" than vanilla 2/2s (what the Cloak is most of the time), not bigger than 12/12. If it's not a 12/12 you don't need to protect it.

The winning Coat decks all have white for StP to kill bigger creatures btw - the problem I pointed out for UG.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-23-2024, 04:01 PM

who gives a shit about any of that:
https://i.imgur.com/C96gWC2.png
Just draw 12

FTW

02-23-2024, 05:56 PM

Can exile Dreadnought in response to sacrifice trigger (from cast or Saga), seems good.

Still seems good to protect with Legolas vs Costume. Or Fow/Daze.

Fox

02-23-2024, 06:26 PM

Does that lose legendary supertype when it copies?

FTW

02-23-2024, 06:34 PM

Does that lose legendary supertype when it copies?

Unless they're changing the rules it would seem to. Older cards like Lazav, the Multifarious say the copy retains the Legendary supertype.

So you could have one Curie out and one Curie-Nought, then use Curie to copy the other in response to removal. Or both Curie-nought and regular Noughts out.

Fox

02-24-2024, 08:32 AM

Haystack 1W artifact. Pay :2: tap: target creature you control phases out.

From the assassin's Creed stuff. Can Karn wish it. Would be better if it targeted artifacts and could target enemy Chalice.

FTW

02-25-2024, 01:36 PM

Curie still seems better because
- it's a proactive turn 2 play that forces opponent to leave a blocker or hold removal
- it works standalone as an Ophidian, doesn't need combo pieces to be relevant
- pitches to FoW/FoN
- attacks turn 3 as 12/12 (off Saga Chapter 3 or cast), while Haystack only allows turn 4 attack

NormalGuy

02-28-2024, 08:03 PM

It's good to see the source still has some activity. I 3-0'd and 3-1'd my last 2 FNMs with this list, which is basically boshnroll's list without the green because I didn't own enough mistys and uros.

The sideboard is not well thought out, just generic blue and white hate cards. The temeshi has never even hit the battlefield, so it's probably bad. That is an easy swap out for Curie next week. And the idea with masterwork of ingenuity is that is can be a backup kaldra if your germ gets plowed or can reduce a coat's cycling cost 3 mana. It's been fine so far, I'm gonna keep it for now.

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tameshi, Reality Architect

1 Lórien Revealed
4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Cryptic Coat
1 Kaldra Compleat
1 Masterwork of Ingenuity
3 Dress Down

4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Meticulous Archive
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

//SIDEBOARD:
1 Aether Spellbomb
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Brazen Borrower
2 Deafening Silence
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 March of Otherworldly Light
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction

Mono-B - LWW
Bug Beans - WW
Doomsday WLW

Mono-B - WLW
Beans - LL
Miracles - LWW
Lands - LWW

FTW

02-28-2024, 09:02 PM

NormalGuy

02-28-2024, 09:40 PM

Looks good. Nice results. I'm a big fan of the UW version.

Could those Tameshis just be Murktides? 3 Murktide seems good if you're not on Uro. Or Curie.

The 1-of Masterwork makes sense if you're on Urza's Saga, but without Saga it seems high variance. How often did you have it where it had nothing to copy? Is it finally time to bring back Copy Artifact? (copies equipment or Dreadnought or enemy The One Ring and pitches to Force).

How was Meticulous Archive for you?

SB needs more March. You don't have many ways to kill Beans or Chalice @ 1. Probably why you had that 1 loss to Beans.

Murktide is probably a good idea, but I don't own any at the moment.

I haven't had masterwork stranded yet, and I did end up fetching it off stoneforge once when I already had kaldra and coat in hand. It ended up eating a FoN when I cast it with a coat on the board. So that was a favorable trade. Copy Artifact might not a bad idea, except it will push up the cost to bounce and re-cast. This deck might also be capable of running some sagas, just need to work around the dress down/construct issue.

Meticulous archive was good, I never had any issues with it yet other then forgetting to fetch end of turn for a free surveil. I don't think I would want more then 2, and 1 is probably enough. Being able to bounce it with daze and replay it for more surveils is nice synergy too.

Other things that I have been considering are ways to bounce your cloaked creatures in case one of them is a spell you want like a force of will. Karakas + making them a ring bearer somehow, or maybe just teferi is the right thing to be doing.

Sevinne's Reclamation is also something I want to try out to recur value from the graveyard, although I don't really want to lower my blue card count if I can help it.

FTW

03-07-2024, 02:30 AM

maybe the gut instinct shouldn't be "now is the time to go white with Thrull!"

4th place MTGO Legacy Challenge Bant Stiflenought:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=52576&d=590274&f=LE

4x Doorkeeper Thrull

Also
0x Hide in Plain Sight
0x Eater of Days
0x Worldly Tutor
0x Slip Out the Back
0x Silver Shroud Costume
0x Cryptic Coat (although I do like the Stoneforge Coat builds, but they don't work with Thrull)
Plays removal

Recent results show Thrull doing work, while the cards I spent 2000 words saying are bad did not make the cut.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-07-2024, 07:40 AM

When did fallout make it to mtgo?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-09-2024, 09:31 PM

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=52872&f=LE
Split the finals, I'm told
It's a coat nought, so like half the cards you're taking a victory lap on either aren't on mtgo or are putting up results.

FTW

03-09-2024, 09:55 PM

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=52872&f=LE
Split the finals, I'm told
It's a coat nought, so like half the cards you're taking a victory lap on either aren't on mtgo or are putting up results.

The 1 putting up results (Coat) I made a note saying was good, just that it doesn't work with Thrull. Both Thrull & Coat builds have 4xStP, because removal matters like I said.

Guess Costume isn't on MTGO yet. The other 4 are and not making results. Slip stopped seeing play since the newer enablers. Wait and see how Costume does when it's out...

Another MTGO Challenge Top 8 with 4x Thrull:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53098&d=594314&f=LE

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-09-2024, 10:44 PM

It's never coming to mtgo. No PIP cards are

FTW

03-09-2024, 10:53 PM

It's never coming to mtgo. No PIP cards are

Is it having any success in paper Stoneforge builds?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-10-2024, 08:21 AM

Is it having any success in paper Stoneforge builds?

In the past seven hours?
I don't know, the card came out yesterday

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

03-25-2024, 07:04 PM

I played a really bad list this weekend (15 lands because o miscounted)
But curie was really good!

Clark Kant

04-11-2024, 02:44 AM

Doorkeeper Thrull is indeed awesome. Boshnroll also had a great finish with it as a 4 of…

https://youtu.be/s2YWLa7p4I0?si=8YMRAHQKFkDkVNWP

One thing, I would absolutely want to play a 3rd Uro if Im playing 3+ Thrull. The question is what to cut for the 3rd Uro. From Bosh’s list, cutting the 4th Doorkeeper for the 3rd Uro makes lots of sense since neither is a card that you ever want in multiples, especially not Thrull. Atleast Uro takes over a game by itself which makes it more likely your opponent will answer the first one thereby making your duplicate copy useful. But Thrull does nothing by itself, especially if another one is already in play. It doesnt even pitch to force.

The recent slew of 5-0s Dressnought had playing a playset of Doorkeeper Thrull is not a coincidence! I finally got some Doorkeeper Thrull and the card is really really good! Better than I expected and better than Slip. Between the Torpor Orb effect, the anti Batterskull tech, and the surprise flash 1/2 blocking, its always useful, even when not being used to enable the combo. I revised my lists as a result…

Bant Dressnought 2024

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze

2 Prismatic Ending
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Brazen Borrower

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Island

//Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer
2 Collector Ouphe
2 Containment Priest
1 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Vigor

To make room for more Uro, I guess cutting the flex slot 1 of Brazen Borrower also makes the sense especially in this Bowmasters meta. But cutting a Daze works too.

The sideboard, Im not sold on the one Boshnroll opted for. Seemed too packed with generic good stuff vs a control meta rather than powerful silver bullets targeting key matchups which is how I prefer to build sideboards for a maindeck with as little room for flex slots as this one.

johncarvalho

04-13-2024, 04:10 PM

Captain Hammer

04-13-2024, 10:28 PM

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54259&d=603011&f=LE

This list came up, and I find Malcolm super weird in a Orcish Bowmasters world. The bunch of one-ofs seems odd as well. Im dipping my toes in a Dreadnought build now and wanna start with UG or UW. What is the consensus so far?

Yeah that is a weird list. Malcolm doesnt make sense imo.

As for your question. I am a big fan of playing 3-4 Uro alongside 4 Dreadnought. Uro supplements 4 Stifle, 4 Dress Down and 1 Slip Out the Back or Doorkeeper Thrull super well.

So between UG and UW, I would go UG. But I actually think Bant (the list I posted above) is the strongest.

As for UG, I would play…

Simic Dressnought

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Tropical Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Endurance
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Subtlety

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Lorien Revealed
1 Slip Out the Back
1 Life from the Loam
1 Force of Negation

Sideboard:
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pick Your Poison
2 Collector Ouphe
2 Veil of Summer
2 Endurance
3 Hydroblast

FTW

04-14-2024, 01:09 AM

Doorkeeper Thrull is indeed awesome. Boshnroll also had a great finish with it as a 4 of…

https://youtu.be/s2YWLa7p4I0?si=8YMRAHQKFkDkVNWP

One thing, I would absolutely want to play a 3rd Uro if Im playing 3+ Thrull. The question is what to cut for the 3rd Uro. From Bosh’s list, cutting the 4th Doorkeeper for the 3rd Uro makes lots of sense since neither is a card that you ever want in multiples, especially not Thrull. Atleast Uro takes over a game by itself which makes it more likely your opponent will answer the first one thereby making your duplicate copy useful. But Thrull does nothing by itself, especially if another one is already in play. It doesnt even pitch to force.

Thrull does a lot of useful stuff in non-Goldfish games, because it disrupts the opponent at instant speed. Because it's a removal target, an extra copy is not a bad thing.

4 Thrull has been the mainstream tech for a while now, even before the Bosh N Roll vid

Finishes on mtgtop8 from the last month:
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54166&d=602224&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54166&d=602229&f=LE
UW https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54260&d=603014&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54260&d=603017&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54030&d=601279&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54021&d=601229&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53919&d=600576&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53715&d=599338&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53674&d=599050&f=LE
UW https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53682&d=599117&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53560&d=598104&f=LE
UWr https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53635&d=598774&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53465&d=597401&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53420&d=597004&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53464&d=597396&f=LE
Bant https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53242&d=595614&f=LE

All those have 4 Thrull.

Decks without 4 Thrull
UW https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53420&d=597008&f=LE (2 Thrull)
Mono U https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53345&d=596363&f=LE
BUG https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=53375&d=596580&f=LE

I think it's safe to take a victory lap for Thrull now.

Cryptic Coat made it as a 1-of in a few lists, but most don't play it.
Slip out the Back is only seeing play in the rarer builds without white.
Silver Shroud Costume still isn't showing up in paper.
Hide in Plain Sight+Worldly Tutor is not making results.

FTW

04-14-2024, 01:14 AM

johncarvalho

04-14-2024, 01:26 PM

Yeah that is a weird list. Malcolm doesnt make sense imo.

As for your question. I am a big fan of playing 3-4 Uro alongside 4 Dreadnought. Uro supplements 4 Stifle, 4 Dress Down and 1 Slip Out the Back or Doorkeeper Thrull super well.

So between UG and UW, I would go UG. But I actually think Bant (the list I posted above) is the strongest.

As for UG, I would play…

Simic Dressnought

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Prismatic Vista
3 Tropical Island
3 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Forest

4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Endurance
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Subtlety

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Lorien Revealed
1 Slip Out the Back
1 Life from the Loam
1 Force of Negation

Sideboard:
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pick Your Poison
2 Collector Ouphe
2 Veil of Summer
2 Endurance
3 Hydroblast

I was thinking about something like this initally for UG:
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/nhQSB24_p0m-X5l2Efcn-g

Im building with what I have available for starters.

Captain Hammer

04-14-2024, 09:42 PM

I was thinking about something like this initally for UG:
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/nhQSB24_p0m-X5l2Efcn-g

Im building with what I have available for starters.

I like the list. It looks fun. Really like that youre experimenting with some brand new untested tech. Let me know how it ends up doing.

4 mana seems like a lot for Vannifar but Legolas is very cheap and effective at protecting Nought and Uro, either of which can win a game on their own, so I hope it ends up being good.

FTW

04-14-2024, 10:43 PM

Interesting deck!

If you prefer UG to UW, a few things:
1) 3 Run Afoul or Pick Your Poison in the SB help with scary flyers (Marit Lage, Archon of Cruelty, Emrakul, Murktide). Otherwise UG struggles at killing things. Pick Your Poison also kills enchantments and artifacts, but doesn't answer Marit Lage at instant speed like Run Afoul. Marit Lage, Emrakul and Archon all race Dreadnought. You need answers.

2) Endurance main is strong the the current meta, with UB Scaminator as the #1 deck and many decks on Murktide. Wouldn't hurt to have more Endurance main.

3) SB needs removal for Chalice @ 1.
Ouphe and Null Rod don't kill it. Pick Your Poison misses. So that's a reason to have your disenchant slot be something else (Force of Vigor, Seeds of Innocence, etc.) and play Run Afoul separately, instead of having Pick your Poison play both roles (misses Chalice & Marit Lage, both big problems)

4) 4 Daze (picking up lands) doesn't play well with the Uros and 4 cmcs like Vannifar. May want to cut to 0-2 Daze. This has been tested before in other decks and vids. The problem is UG must race (no removal) but has most threats at turn 3, so losing land drops to Daze+Wasteland really sets you back. Daze works better in the decks with more early plays.

johncarvalho

04-15-2024, 05:59 AM

Thanks for the feedback, this was a 1st draft.

Good points, I will take all that in consideration and keep tuning the list :)

Pick your poison and FoV are something im looking into, as well as maybe some number of dismember.

FTW

04-15-2024, 10:02 AM

They're small tuning things that wouldn't show up goldfishing but would affect how the deck plays against Tier 1 decks. Overall the deck idea looks good. Good luck!

johncarvalho

04-19-2024, 06:12 AM

Do we have a Discord channel for Dreadnought builds?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-19-2024, 08:06 AM

Do we have a Discord channel for Dreadnought builds?

The Dreadvelopment Zone?

Captain Hammer

04-25-2024, 12:59 AM

Has anyone tried Curie, Emergent Intelligence.

As an old school Ophidian player, I would love to get Curie working, either in Dressnought, alongside equipment, or in Affinity.

Perhaps it could work in a Monoblue Dressnought list alongside Tishana's Tidebinder, Ancient Tomb, Urza’s Saga, Lavaspur Boots and Misdirection…

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tishana's Tidebinder
3 Curie, Emergent Intelligence
2 Delver of Secrets
1 Hullbreacher
1 Murktide Regent
1 Brazen Borrower

1 Lórien Revealed
4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Misdirection

2 Lavaspur Boots
4 Dress Down

12 Island
1 Otawara, Soaring City
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Urza’s Saga

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-25-2024, 03:25 AM

I found Curie impressive, even when not doing the thing.
But ultimately nothing really works with it, the best creatures aren't artifacts (shadow) and the best artifacts are to expensive (etched monstrosity) outside of dreadnought
E: master of etherium might be another in the sweet spot

FTW

04-25-2024, 03:57 AM

Phyrexian Soulgorger, Lupine Prototype and Vantress Gargoyle would "work". But there's no reason to try to make Curie "work". 7x Dreadnought should be enough.

I think Tishana has already proven too slow for Legacy.

Monoblue could work as
//Creatures:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Curie, Emergent Intelligence
3 Murktide Regent
2 Brazen Borrower

More Murktides to have a secondary threat. Borrower to answer prison pieces in mono U.

But there's no reason to force yourself into mono U. White adds removal, which makes it much easier for Curie to connect in a control-type Ophidian role.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-25-2024, 10:26 AM

Those cards don't work because Curie doesn't just copy the P/T it also copies the abilities you're trying to avoid.

FTW

04-25-2024, 10:48 AM

Vantress Gargoyle would work, because you can activate Curie after declaring attackers (can attack) but before blockers (gains flying). Then you draw 5, so it can block and mill until it can attack again.

But 7 Dreadnought is enough. Curie doesn't need another creature to combo with.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-25-2024, 01:17 PM

Curie is a stifle more than a Dreadnought, so I would want a second card to combo with it

FTW

04-26-2024, 02:54 PM

Fox

04-26-2024, 04:49 PM

Curie is more a Standstill/EI/Sylvan. Proactive 2cmc draw. It doesn't need to combo. It's Ophidian. It draws cards, stalls attackers, or draws out removal.

The Dreadnought combo is just a bonus - if left alone it can be haste 12/12 draw 12. Dreadnought + Saga is enough ways to set up that combo.

Ophidian mode is easier to use in a controlling UW build with removal.

Not quite. Curie is a card that must shrink your hand to get on-board, and then it likely does not draw any extra cards b/c of Karkas or Maze or kill spell or simple block.

After that you need to shrink hand by a further 2 cards to make a Nought to activate Curie on. You don't have a hand left to be controlling with. What you're describing here is being more midrange with Curie...but the point of midrange is to spam every card drawn, which only works with mono-1-card combos.

You can cut out a lot of steps and vulnerabilities by using a JVP or FailWhale or FailDancer. It is also notable that the entire effect of copy to counter removal is printed on Mycosynth, which can chose a different mode of Fiery Islet imitation with any GY hate trinket copying.

There are better and safer ways to do the Curie thing. Getting a copy-to-counter-removal effect online will convert more undecided games into a win than a draw 12 after successfully copying and hitting with a 12/12. The draw 12 is winmore, and while Ophidian'ing would get you to the wonmore point quicker, you have to have a ton of things go right. Delver decks have run this simulation already with FailWhale and FailDancer.

FTW

04-26-2024, 05:05 PM

After that you need to shrink hand by a further 2 cards to make a Nought to activate Curie on.

1 card, right?

Curie activation is instant speed. No Stifle needed.

If opponent ever taps out or you resolve Teferi, you go:
1 - Dreadnought
1U: Curie becomes hasteNought, attack for 12, draw 12 -> game win

Mycosynth does the copy to counter removal better but can't make hasteNought or make 1 attack winning.

You can add pressure passively by playing Saga, making Constructs, threatening 12/12 haste.

Therefore opponent must either:
a) kill Curie first (drew out removal spell from future Nought)
b) never tap out

Pressure mana further with Stifle + Wasteland and opponent is giving up major tempo by not casting spells and not attacking (leaving creature to block Ophidian). So they probably trade with Curie immediately, otherwise it costs them too much tempo to manage.

The potential to convert wins comes from trading with removal spells on Ophidian mode, fogging attackers (putting them on defense), and only needing 1 haste attack to decide a game instead of the usual 2 non-haste (sorcery interaction).

It may not be the most reliable draw engine but it seems to add value.

Fox

04-26-2024, 06:12 PM

So if you go Dreadnought -> Curie copy, then you're dead to 1x removal spell (which they probably have in hand if they can block a 1/3 endlessly).

Concerning 1-shot Dreadnought, it is quite lethal in UR. 2-shot Dreadnought is a phenomenon specific to decks without modal removal and without proactive 1-drops on par with DRC.

While a 2-shot build can get around that problem by drawing 12 off a single hit...it assumes the opponent is either: fairly incompetent or unlucky, or unable to take a hit for 12 from Nought - such that they are unable to stop you from attacking with a 1/3 alongside a non-summoning sick 12/12. The trick of attacking 1/3 with 12/12 into countering their removal + I still have a 12/12 with draw 12 is heavily reliant on them not having 3 blocking power with a single kill spell in hand.

^These situations force you to act first, which is where it's going to go wrong....and as you set it all up, you lose a lot of hand size [i.e. control]. This is a jank problem, and you can't really count on getting them b/c they're on Leyline Binding rather than Ending.

There's a lot of creatures out there which, if you just untap with them, will access value that works with Dreadnought - and they don't require this much prep work/setup.
---
Unlike Standstill, Curie doesn't attack on a different axis. You had a dies to removal problem, and with Curie you still die to removal and you overload on slots that help Curie work as Ophidian...but those kill spells impede a Dreadnought plan. When Standstill provides quantity, we're drawing a higher %age of Dreadnought tech pieces.

dte

04-27-2024, 01:06 PM

The trick of attacking 1/3 with 12/12 into countering their removal + I still have a 12/12 with draw 12 is heavily reliant on them not having 3 blocking power with a single kill spell in hand.

No it isn't?
If they have "a single kill spell" and you counter their removal, you win the game.

If they have 3+ blocking power AND a removal AND mana open AND you don't have a counter AND you don't have tefeiri AND you have any other sorts of protection, maybe you shouldn't play dreadnought unless you're facing lethal?

I am not saying Curie should be played (I don't know), just trying to match the communication style.

Fox

04-28-2024, 10:35 AM

No it isn't?
If they have "a single kill spell" and you counter their removal, you win the game.

If they have 3+ blocking power AND a removal AND mana open AND you don't have a counter AND you don't have tefeiri AND you have any other sorts of protection, maybe you shouldn't play dreadnought unless you're facing lethal?

I am not saying Curie should be played (I don't know), just trying to match the communication style.

That's quite the feat with 3 cards already discarded to present a 12/12 and a 1/3, and playing a land per turn. Where'd that hand size come from, that still has all the cards you need?

Remember always that these Stiflenought decks make their guy at sorcery speed, and pass the turn due to summoning sickness. The Stiflenought decks pair this with not being able to tempo a life total, so opponent gets another turn if they elect to pay 12 life. What's important here is that the opponent's hand size trends up while yours trends down, so it's quite the feat to have a residual hand that's better than theirs. Given how many untaps you're gifting the opponent, you're not going to "get them" b/c they don't have mana up.

Curie does not solve this problem, but rather makes the hand size disparity problem worse. The opponent will probably have at least an X/2 dude and just be able to sit there waiting for you to blink first. We can list off UW cards that counter their kill spell, have a PW passive, or kill their blocker...but the issue is that your deck isn't particularly effective at having or drawing these cards through the Dreadnought package stuff. You're tripping over Dreadnought pieces while trying to unlock Ophidian draws and tripping over 1-for-1s when trying to Dreadnought. In both cases the opponent just has to play and protect kill spells, regardless of which path you choose. If you get to the point of the game that you can unite Curie and Dreadnought plans, the draw 12 is likely not needed to win.

There's no shortage of printed creatures that generate value if you untap with them, but across the history of legacy the only ones that worked were Dreadhorde and Ragavan. The runners up*, again, are JVP (no combat needed), FailWhale (declare attack), and FailDancer (unblockable). Note how these are not 1/3s without any combat keywords/text to help put a damage on a player so that they can draw a card.
*Dark Confidant is specifically excluded due to non-blue + unplayability issues vs Wrenn and then Bowmancer, but again, doesn't need a combat step.

What you really need to be asking is how Curie wins an undecided game. These undecided games should be representative; i.e. without requiring the opponent to savagely misplay, and without relying on the opponent to draw under average. If Curie as Ophidian is just crushing it by itself, other not-Dreadnought decks made of mono-1-card-combos would exist. So it's either the ability to copy-to-counter-removal or the draw 12 supercombo (which we've already identified as winmore in games that are already won). So it's the copying-to-counter-removal; let me tell you about Mycosynth. You're discarding lands to the table anyways, so if you can put the copy effect on a card you were playing anyways, it turns out that you're addressing the hand size disparity issue.

dte

04-28-2024, 12:02 PM

That's quite the feat with 3 cards already discarded to present a 12/12 and a 1/3, and playing a land per turn. Where'd that hand size come from, that still has all the cards you need?

Maybe that's where the disparity of views come from: you only need one card out, curie. You only play 12/12 if needed. Ophidian can win alone against noncreature decks. Creatures decks have to either kill curie, or at least realistically seeming able to do so. Tapping out make them vulnerable to 12/12 haste trample draw 12. Curie is a sort of stifle on steroids.

Still not saying that it should be played in Uw dreadnought, just to have the arguments fair. It is probably great vs some decks, and an immediate side out against others.

PS: real names of cards rather than nicknames would be great, there are a number of sentences I have no clue what you're talking about.

Fox

04-28-2024, 12:49 PM

Maybe that's where the disparity of views come from: you only need one card out, curie. You only play 12/12 if needed. Ophidian can win alone against noncreature decks. Creatures decks have to either kill curie, or at least realistically seeming able to do so. Tapping out make them vulnerable to 12/12 haste trample draw 12. Curie is a sort of stifle on steroids.

Still not saying that it should be played in Uw dreadnought, just to have the arguments fair. It is probably great vs some decks, and an immediate side out against others.

PS: real names of cards rather than nicknames would be great, there are a number of sentences I have no clue what you're talking about.

Faildancer is Mercurial Spelldancer, Failwhale is Heavenly Whale. The most important thing about these cards is the abundant amount of data out there highlighting their spectacular failure - and then recognizing how much more likely they (and JVP) are to generate value, such that the opponent is the one forced to blink first. Ophidian, particularly without credible 1-drop threats to divert removal, is not going to replace itself nor generate overt CA in the average game of legacy - if that's your plan, you need a different plan.

The issue with Stiflenought decks is that they can't get past kill spells. Going all-in on Curie (which kills your Dreadnought to exile) doesn't solve this problem...and unlike the other untap for value 2-drops, Curie does not threaten CA vs any player with a blocker/Maze/Karakas etc. To "get got" by Curie for 12, your opponent needs to be either inept or unlucky or both (and the inept requirement is harder to find the longer a Swiss goes).

Concerning combo decks, tapping out at sorcery speed for a 2 drop [not-hatebear] vs combo is one of the most reproducible ways to lose this format has ever seen. Remember that Ragavan made a 3rd mana and they got there with DHA b/c they could profitably play Daze and thus might survive a YOLO-tapout. Playing a deck bereft of 1 drops and making summoning sick fatties that give opponents untap + draw + land drop, does not lead to Daze hitting key spells.

dte

04-29-2024, 01:50 AM

Faildancer is Mercurial Spelldancer, Failwhale is Heavenly Whale.

Thanks for the cards names!
I think spelldancer is clearly worse: dies to bowmaster, requires you to play 3 spells to do anything. Heavenly whale, wouldn't it be playable if Murktide Regent wasn't just better?

Also, none of them threatens one-shot kill? I think the most apt comparison is blighted agent:as frail as it gets, but a threat you cannot ignore.

Note as well that blockers work only against the ophidian side of the card, not against one shot kill.

I might be very wrong, I don't play the deck.

snugar_i

04-29-2024, 07:34 AM

Failwhale is Heavenly Whale
For anyone still confused that no such card exists, the real real name is Ethereal Forager

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-29-2024, 08:02 AM

If you think Stifle + Dreadnought is a playable line to win a game of Legacy, then I have no clue how you don't think Curie + Dreadnought is also a playable line to win a game of legacy. The difference is 3 mana, but you can leverage the Curie (stifle) before you go off.
If you exile Dreadnought to curie and Curie is removed how is that any different than if you stifled dreadnought and it's removed? Vs Counter magic?

The reason not to play Curie/Nought is because a) 3 extra mana makes you 'telegraph' it, and B) Stifle does more work than Curie without dreadnought AND you don't have room for both.
And with A) you need to weigh Curie's value as just an ophidian, how much value do you get from running it out ahead of time to help break up 5 mana into 3, and I was surprised by how well a 2 mana ophidian was performing when I played it [sample size n=3 games].
And with B, you can run both cards. Which is why I'm so desperate for a second Curie target, so much as even an artifact 2/2 would do wonders.

FTW

04-29-2024, 10:08 AM

Glad to see others discussing this too!

Good points. Curie is a less reliable draw engine than Standstill or EI, even JVP or "FailWhale". But that doesn't make it unplayable. That makes Scroll Thief unplayable. Thief + combo piece might not be.

So if you go Dreadnought -> Curie copy, then you're dead to 1x removal spell (which they probably have in hand if they can block a 1/3 endlessly).

Stifle+Dreadnought has the same 2-for-1 risk. Curie's no riskier. But the potential payoff is higher. You get a 1-shot HasteNought (draw 12 = win usually) instead of a summon sick 2-shot. It reduces their window of interaction.

While a 2-shot build can get around that problem by drawing 12 off a single hit...it assumes the opponent is either: fairly incompetent or unlucky, or unable to take a hit for 12 from Nought - such that they are unable to stop you from attacking with a 1/3 alongside a non-summoning sick 12/12.

All you need is:
-Curie on board from previous turn
-2U mana
-either: opponent tapped out, opponent out of removal, protection in hand, or Teferi in play
-No Bowmaster in play

They can have blockers, as long as a 12/12 tramples through them. You can pressure their mana with Stifle+Wasteland or try to resolve protection like Teferi/LQR. If you ever catch them open, you deploy a 1-mana card from hand and win the game with HasteNought. Or you can play Urza's Sagas, make constructs, and passively threaten a Hastenought. If they aren't open, Saga gets a cantrip instead of Nought. You aren't forced to play into their open removal.

That's quite the feat with 3 cards already discarded to present a 12/12 and a 1/3, and playing a land per turn. Where'd that hand size come from, that still has all the cards you need?

You've conflated 2 different scenarios.

If going for the surprise HasteNought that can be blown out by removal, it's only 2 cards (Curie + Nought), maybe free from Saga, so there's a higher chance of having other interaction.

If making the fair 12/12 and 1/3, it's 3 cards but also less blown out by removal. You only need to attack with the 12/12, saving the 1/3 for "copy to counter removal". You can also make the 12/12 with Dress Down instead (if not playing the HasteNought line), only spending 2 cards.

Curie does not solve this problem, but rather makes the hand size disparity problem worse. The opponent will probably have at least an X/2 dude and just be able to sit there waiting for you to blink first.

If you didn't have Curie, that creature would be attacking instead of frozen un-sideways. So even when Curie can't draw cards, it passively has "gain 3 life per turn". It fogged an attacker by keeping it on defense. We've seen from Uro that such lifegain helps stabilize against aggressive decks, so that on-board Curie is not useless. Now add removal into the mix. Does opponent leave 2 blockers? Otherwise you can "2-for-1" them with remove blocker+attack with Curie. If they leave 2 blockers, you gain even more life.

Curie also passively threatens to turn into a haste 12/12 draw 12 at any time, so opponent has to save removal and mana at all times.

So opponent loses attackers & loses mana -> overall tempo lost.

That untapped passive Curie is slowing them down, even when it isn't doing the ideal thing. Maybe that's still not good enough to be better than other Dreadnought options, but it's not nothing. It's worth testing.

Fox

04-29-2024, 10:13 AM

Thanks for the cards names!
I think spelldancer is clearly worse: dies to bowmaster, requires you to play 3 spells to do anything. Heavenly whale, wouldn't it be playable if Murktide Regent wasn't just better?

Also, none of them threatens one-shot kill? I think the most apt comparison is blighted agent:as frail as it gets, but a threat you cannot ignore.

Note as well that blockers work only against the ophidian side of the card, not against one shot kill.

I might be very wrong, I don't play the deck.
The main issues with Failwhale is that Delver has to play mirrormatches, and so it always dies to Bolt. Then when Failwhale user avoids a Bolt deck, they run into Endurance and there is no card they can rebuy with trigger to kill the Endurance. It's more that MurkGoyf doesn't care about those two unavoidable problems Failwhale can't handle, rather than beating a 3/3 in combat.

Faildancer has obvious problems with Bowmaster, but it has ophidian-like text + can't be blocked. While it's positioned quite poorly, you can at least trust it accomplish the hit a player requirement by itself, without other cards. The biggest issue is that Delver goes hellbent and then they draw this 2/1...and they're still 2 draws away from any value. Curie has the opposite problem where it can't be trusted to deal combat damage to a player, particularly when you've got about 15 slots invested in Dreadnought stuff. You're not protecting or clearing the way for Ophidian because Dress Down or Stifle or Thrull or Dreadnought are clogging the hand. This idea that Curie is a must-kill card is based on a deeply flawed notion that it can be trusted to draw cards by itself; oh look a blocker, check -> forced move Curie, blink first.

While we're at it we also have to say the name of the best green card in the game: Force of Vigor. I would also be remiss to not point out that if you deal 12 and have a draw 12 on the stack, you better hope they're dead before drawing 12 into a 40% Bowmaster format (13 to dome, swing for 14...hope you're not tapped out after paying 3 for the Curie ambush). While we're on Bowmaster, you've got some Curie issues if you ever Ponder into a Bowmaster passive as this creates an eternal fog (2/2) for Curie. It is difficult to find a magic card that plays into more of the most commonly used tools of legacy than Curie.

z0anthr0pe

04-29-2024, 08:50 PM

Just got some Doorkeeper Thrulls, they should be nice in this build. Would they be good to replace perhaps, stifles?

FTW

04-29-2024, 11:27 PM

Just got some Doorkeeper Thrulls, they should be nice in this build. Would they be good to replace perhaps, stifles?

Here are some good recent Thrull lists:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54751&d=606932&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=54909&d=608230&f=LE

They all keep Stifle.

FTW

04-30-2024, 11:45 AM

Curie does not threaten CA vs any player with a blocker/Maze/Karakas etc.

By the same mode of argument, opponent is helpless against Curie in any deck with Wasteland/StP/Saga->Pithing Needle/etc.

Yes they have potential answers for Ophidian, but we already run answers for those cards. So we are reduced to the % of times they draw that answer & we don't draw the counter. Even if they have the answer, they're using 1 card to stop 1 Ophidian (1-for-1), so it's not a crippling loss. Nought isn't committed yet. If they have too many answers, Curie can be boarded out.

Concerning combo decks, tapping out at sorcery speed for a 2 drop [not-hatebear] vs combo is one of the most reproducible ways to lose this format has ever seen. Remember that Ragavan made a 3rd mana and they got there with DHA b/c they could profitably play Daze and thus might survive a YOLO-tapout. Playing a deck bereft of 1 drops and making summoning sick fatties that give opponents untap + draw + land drop, does not lead to Daze hitting key spells.

So the trick with Ophidian back in the day was you never had to jam it turn 3. You could wait till 5 lands, holding up Counterspell + FoW.

In the control vs combo match, you aren't forced to act first. Hold up answers. Eventually your CA engine gets deployed and you will outdraw them.

That line may work in Legacy too, without Daze or turn 2 tapouts. Just hold up Stifle/Dress Down/FoW/Fluster/etc until you play your CA on 3-4 lands.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-30-2024, 02:01 PM

The discussion of Curie is now offically over it's time to talk about, Nulldrifter and the two new Urza Lands.

FTW

04-30-2024, 04:32 PM

Nulldrifter doesn't pitch to Force. Both modes seem unplayable without a combo. Funny that you can Stifle/Dress Down it into play and keep the draw 2 though. It's slow (turn 3-4), but 4/4 flying annihilator is good and the draw 2 on cast is big.

Thrull builds could finally cut green for stable mana, with Nulldrifter filling the role of secondary target & card draw.

//Creatures: 13
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Nulldrifter
2 Murktide Regent

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Ponder
2 March of Otherworldly Light
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
3 Island
1 Plains

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-30-2024, 06:54 PM

Why the fuck are you even talking about null drifter? That's weeks old, who cares?
It's Null Vessle Time!

Null Vessel
Artifact
1
Sacrifice Null Vessle: until end of turn creatures entering the battlefield didn't cause abilities to trigger
It's in mh3, not the commander decks

FTW

04-30-2024, 08:09 PM

Can play both together. It makes T3 Nulldrifter or T2 Dreadnought.

Doesn't cantrip or turn sideways so you don't want too many copies. But good proactive T1 play to troll Grief/Initiative/Goblins/Atraxa faster than Thrull can.

Tutorable off Saga, so Saga now fixes both sides of the combo! T1 Saga can become T3 12/12 fairly consistently.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

04-30-2024, 09:50 PM

Too many leaks:
I've been told it's not real.
I am owned

Clark Kant

05-03-2024, 02:26 AM

Nulldrifter is pretty insane. Draw 2 plus a game winning threat is well worth 3 mana. It replaces Uro and without Uro, the deck can now play 2-3 Murktide as a supplemental beefy threat.

Nulldrifter doesn't pitch to Force. Both modes seem unplayable without a combo. Funny that you can Stifle/Dress Down it into play and keep the draw 2 though. It's slow (turn 3-4), but 4/4 flying annihilator is good and the draw 2 on cast is big.

Thrull builds could finally cut green for stable mana, with Nulldrifter filling the role of secondary target & card draw.

//Creatures: 13
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Nulldrifter
2 Murktide Regent

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Ponder
2 March of Otherworldly Light
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
3 Island
1 Plains

March of Otherworldly Light seems not great, definitely not worth cutting 2 Ponder for. I would rather play all 4 Ponder (or a 3 Ponder, 1 Lorien Revealed split) and cut one Daze and one Thrull or a Nulldrifter for the 2 flex slots.

3 Islands feels excessive and I would instead just lightly splash a third color (red for the sideboard options it opens up) to be able to play 2 Prismatic Ending instead of 2 March.

But otherwise, this list looks perfect. 👍

FTW

05-03-2024, 02:45 AM

Yeah I didn't love going to 2 Ponder 2 March.

With 0 March 0 Prismatic Ending, the deck has no maindeck removal for noncreatures. So in game 1 you can't interact with Beans, scoop to Ensnaring Bridge, struggle with Chalice @ 1, etc. That's a lot of game 1 losses. The Bant Thrull builds have 2 Prismatic Ending to deal with that stuff.

Could still play 4 Ponder, play 2 Prismatic, splash the red triome, and cut down to 2-3 Daze.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-03-2024, 09:09 AM

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter
4 Scion of Draco

4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Grim Monolith
4 Leyline of the Guildpact
4 Torpor Orb

4 Ugin's Nexus
4 Ancient Tomb

Maybe Board

Arcane Proxy
Phyrexian Fleshgorger
Not of this World
Meteor Golem
Affinity bodies?

FTW

05-03-2024, 10:19 AM

Why Leyline and Draco?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-03-2024, 10:41 AM

Why Leyline and Draco?
Because hexproof dreadnought, and you get to daze off a sol land
E: oh and play leyline binding. You're always saying I need more removal!

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-11-2024, 06:52 PM

https://twitter.com/Beest42/status/1789376771176960380?t=en874-J-D7yj06JaCwOEVg&s=19

Captain Hammer

05-22-2024, 01:39 AM

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter
4 Dress Down
X Ancient Tomb

The whole Scion of Drago and Leyline plan adds too much inconsistency but the idea of adding a couple of Ancient Tomb now that Nulldrifter looks to replace Uro as the go to secondary threat feels like its worth exploring. Tomb lets you cast Dress Down/Doorkeeper Thrull and Dreadnought on the same turn in addition to casting Nulldrifter or Hullbreacher.

Clark Kant

05-26-2024, 12:13 AM

My early post MH3 brew…

Bant Dressnought 2024

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
1 Daze
1 Slip Out the Back
1 Consign to Memory

2 Prismatic Ending
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Nulldrifter
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Doorkeeper Thrull
2 Murktide Regent

3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Shifting Woodland
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest

//Sideboard:
3 Hydroblast
2 Doorkeeper Thrull
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Veil of Summer
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pick Your Poison
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Force of Negation
1 Force of Vigor

Nulldrifter seems the most promising but both Consign to Memory and Shifting Woodland look like they could be worth playing as 1 ofs.

Its also possible that Vexing Bauble is good enough that we should shift over to playing a copy alongside 3 Urza’s Saga instead of the 3 Wasteland.

Its also likely that I should cut some of the 1 ofs to play the 4th Stifle, 4th StP and/or 3rd Doorkeeper Thrull, but its early and I want to test out some spicy cards.

Anything I missed from MH3? I didnt check all the leaks yet.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-26-2024, 08:53 AM

My initial reaction to consign is aversion.
I guess it matters how big colorless spells get after mh3

FTW

05-26-2024, 01:14 PM

Consign might be good and is worth testing as a 1-of.

It's a Stifle that doesn't counter fetches or Wasteland but does counter:
- Chalice
- The One Ring
- Mystic Forge
- Bowmasters trigger
- Grief/Solitude ability
- SFM trigger
- Uro trigger..

Seems a lot better than Slip Out the Back.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-27-2024, 09:55 AM

It actually lets you play chalice, which is something I've wanted to do again

Captain Hammer

05-27-2024, 11:04 PM

I like that both Consign and Nulldrifter can be played at instant speed and Consign can hit multiple triggers.

Yes it would cost 5 mana but I would love to one day respond to my opponents One Ring by first evoking Nulldrifter and then consigning/countering both the One Ring and Nulldrifters sacrifice trigger.

The manabase worries me, instead of playing 3 basics, I would rather play an extra tundra and a Boseiju who Endures.

If playing 3 Urzas Saga instead of Wasteland, the maindeck also needs to make room for 1 Lavaspur Boots, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Vexing Bauble and 1 Mycosynth Gardens.

Of the threats, Murtide seems like the weakest link as it neither draws cards nor wins in a single swing.

snugar_i

05-28-2024, 12:10 AM

Captain Hammer

05-28-2024, 12:38 AM

Nulldrifter does not have flash, am I missing something?

Youre right. My mistake. I thought it did for some weird reason.

Im still excited about Nulldrifter, especially in a Mono Blue Dressnought list alongside Harbinger of the Seas. Most blue decks lightly splash a color for their removal. Shutting off the removal colors is exactly what our deck wants, Harbinger is a bomb in that respect.

Monoblue Dressnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dress Down
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Consign to Memory
1 Force of Negation/Slip Out the Back
1 Lorien Revealed

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter
2 Harbinger of the Seas
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Murktide Regent
1 Tishana's Tidebinder or Curie, Emergent Intelligence or Narset or Hullbreacher or Jace or some other utility card

4 Wasteland
5 Snow-Covered Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Mycosynth Gardens or Another Blue Utility Land

//Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Harbinger of the Seas
2 Force of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Consign to Memory
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Jace/Court of Cunning

FTW

05-28-2024, 02:15 AM

Murktide & Uro don't work together. It's one or the other, not both.

Murktide is good if you cut green (Nulldrifter draws cards so green is less necessary).

Possible threat suites:
//Bant Build
4 Dreadnought
4 Uro
2 Nulldrifter

//UW or Mono U
4 Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter
3 Murktide

Mono U is interesting with maindeck Harbinger. Removal-less usually has lower win rate (see MtgTop 8 results: Dreadnought can't race Marit Lage or Archon), but Harbinger shuts down Depths & Borrower also answers fatties.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-28-2024, 08:37 AM

I'm going to wait until tomorrow and they leak the eldrazi deck.
because my currnet plan is:

Chalice,
Torpor Orb,
NullDrifter
Dreadnought,
Grim Monolith (as lotus petal)
Silver Shroud Costume

Curie?
Force?
Redemptor Dreadnought? (cavern of souls?)
Vanguard Supressor?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-28-2024, 04:20 PM

Land that enables dreadnought
Talon Gates of Madara:
When ~ enters the battlefield, up to 1 target creature phases out.
T: Add C
1C: Add one of any color
4: Put ~ from your hand onto the battlefield.

Land that lets you get nutty under other enablers:
Sunken palace:
Enters tapped.
T: Add U
1U, Exile Seven cards from your graveyard, T: Add U, if it's used to cast a spell or activate an ability, copy that spell or ability

Captain Hammer

05-28-2024, 08:23 PM

Ugin's Binding seems great with Nulldrifter...

Ugin's Binding
2U
Instant
Deviod

Return target nonland permanent you don't control to it's owner's hand.

Whenever you cast a colorless spell with mana value 7 or greater, you may exile Ugin's Binding from your graveyard. When you do, return each nonland permanent you don't control to it's owner's hand.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-28-2024, 08:38 PM

Yeah binding is just nonsense with nulldrifter but what's your other way to trigger it?

4eak

05-28-2024, 09:20 PM

//Seems like a combo-oriented Thresh to me. The problems of standalone power and converting dead control elements into superior win conditions, unsure of the choice between playing control or combo in some cases. Seems like Dreadstill and classic legacy reinterpretations of Thresh are colliding into the lowest-CC curve. I consider the combo so expensive alongside the Waste+Stifle+Daze approach that 20 rather than 18 seems more appropriate.//

; UWg Dreadnought:

"""
// `Lands - 20` //
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

// `FTW - 14` //
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Dress Down

// `Threshly Control - 18`//
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending

// `Threshly CQ - 8` //
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
"""

<br>

From what I can see, however, this is just worse than Delver-based Thresh on average. In striving toward that variation, I kinda like this mono blue concept:

"""
// `Lands - 20` //
4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Prismatic Vista
3 Island
3 Snow-Covered Island

// `Threshly CQ Smoothing - 8` //
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

// `Threshly Control - 18`//
4 Force of Will
4 Force of Negation
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Brazen Borrower

// `FTW - 14` //
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Curie, Emergent Intelligence
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Murktide Regent
"""

Nobody can afford to let Curie click (the non-useless-ification of a combo enabler and classic in-function standalone piece for the rest of the role of this deck), and it just so happens to pair nicely with Dreadnought. Yes, you do open yourself to 2-for-1s, and that's often part of the inherent risk of a Dreadnought deck in the first place. Added bonus is that you can swing right on the spot, where 12 cards probably ends the game. There's something pleasant about the threat density, and I would dare call it fishy. =). I will argue that splashing at least, even if only, for sideboarding seems likely worthy. Harbinger of the Seas seems like a much stronger SB card, and it has that B2B feel of MUC, in a way (which wouldn't be the worst SB option here either); one could even transform out of Dreadnought for a total attack on the opposing mana base. Ugin's Binding + Nulldrifter may simply be better in the end, I have no idea.

Captain Hammer

05-29-2024, 12:27 AM

4eak, both of your lists should make room for 3 Nulldrifter and 4 Dress Down.

20 Lands + 8 cantrips is excessive, 19 is as high as I would go. I would probably cut a Daze too, Daze works better as a 2-3 of than as a 4 of.

In your UWg list, I would recommend
-1 Daze
-1 Island
-1 Prismatic Ending
+3 Nulldrifter

The monoblue list should be maindecking Harbinger, its the only reason to play monoblue. Delver is too slow and Curie makes sense as 1-2 of, not a 4 of. And 4 Force of Negation is beyond excessive and way too much card disadvantage alongside the FoWs, I would play 1 FoN maindeck and another in the board. So those would be my cuts to make room for the Nulldrifters, Harbingers and Dress Downs.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-29-2024, 08:35 AM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-29-2024, 08:36 AM

Monstrous Vortex
3G
Enchantment

Whenever you cast a creature spell with power 5 or greater, discover X, where X is that spell's mana value

So if you have a torpor orb or dress down out....
and you cast a dreadnought...
and you have no other 1's/0's....
you get to put 4 dreadnoughts into play.

Which means no chalice, but man..... 48 power?

Captain Hammer

05-29-2024, 08:38 PM

Help me understand your love of Harbringer (aka, Flood Moon, Aka Magus of the Blue Moon, aka Avatar Merfolk Copium)
It's double U in the cost, so you're not playing it early. Islands are far more useful to opponents than mountains. It keeps you out of other colors where goodies like Uro are.

The splash colors contain all the removal. You cut them off the splash color and they cant StP, Boseiju or Meltdown our threats.

Our threats are much faster clocks than their threats with the exception of Marit Lage which both Harbinger and Brazen Borrower help with.

Im not saying its worth going monoblue for harbinger. UW, Bant and UG are probably better. But if we opt to go monoblue (which is finally viable thanks to Nulldrifter), Harbinger should be maindecked.

Captain Hammer

05-29-2024, 08:45 PM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

05-30-2024, 08:09 AM

No other 1s in the deck means we dont get to play Brainstorm, Ponder or Stifle.
Yes

but man..... 48 power?

babau

05-30-2024, 11:22 AM

4 thrull
4 Dreadnought
4 nulldrifther
2 brazen/misdirection

4 force
4 daze
4 stifle
4 dress down
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 stp

4 wasteland
3 tundra
1 surveil land
3 island
7 fetch

basic but work well

FTW

05-30-2024, 04:58 PM

Yeah I like that plan, it looks consistent.

Probably Brazen over Misdirection because there's no way to remove noncreatures like Chalice (no Prismatic Ending)

babau

05-31-2024, 01:28 PM

yes brazen is better solution. Prismatic Ending is in side, two color not Is the best fot P.E.
you could still change the land with surveil with 1x of otawara to have an additional solution?

johncarvalho

05-31-2024, 02:08 PM

Captain Hammer

05-31-2024, 10:10 PM

love this list as a starting point. how would you start the sb?

Yes this list looks solid, but it doesnt use the graveyard at all so could easily support 2 Murkide as a bonus big threat. And definitely brazen over misdirection.

I would cut a stifle and daze for the murktides, stifle because it doesnt work as well with nulldrifter (it needs 4 mana on the same turn), and daze because daze is way more potent when it surprises your opponent, and the more dazes you play, the less likely daze is to catch them by surprise.

babau

06-01-2024, 01:43 AM

the deck must put down a big guy on the third turn at the latest, and it must do so with active protection, if you don't have a hand that can do it you must mulligan. If the main plan doesn't work the strength of the deck is the draw/search engine which normally allows us to repeat our game. In any case, both Regent and S. Caterina are possible insertions.

babau

06-01-2024, 02:12 AM

johncarvalho

06-01-2024, 04:52 AM

Yes this list looks solid, but it doesnt use the graveyard at all so could easily support 2 Murkide as a bonus big threat. And definitely brazen over misdirection.

I would cut a stifle and daze for the murktides, stifle because it doesnt work as well with nulldrifter (it needs 4 mana on the same turn), and daze because daze is way more potent when it surprises your opponent, and the more dazes you play, the less likely daze is to catch them by surprise.

What about the ethereal forager? seems good in this deck as well, instead of murktide.
Unfortunately i dont have murks (but got katherines and whales) :) those will have to do for now!

babau

06-01-2024, 05:55 AM

I really like it, I think it deserves a test

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

06-01-2024, 07:51 AM

What about the ethereal forager? seems good in this deck as well, instead of murktide.
Unfortunately i dont have murks (but got katherines and whales) :) those will have to do for now!

Sailors Bane over forger imo. I counted 26 support cards.
Or the new whale. What's a 4/4 to a 7/5

babau

06-01-2024, 08:35 AM

if we stay uw the first choice is the regent (it is the easiest to play) the second is St. Catherine because she can easily play in turn 3 the third possibility is to also play green and play uro. all the others can be tested but in general they are worse (because they put little pressure/because they don't gain an advantage/because they go down a round later etc..etc..)

FTW

06-01-2024, 01:34 PM

I find nulldrifther very strong because if the stifle-nulldrifther play is blocked, 2 cards have still been drawn and therefore 1) we didn't miss a turn 2) we had +1 card advantage over our opponent (who spent a card to block our play)

The problem is not if it gets answered, but paying the mana.

Stifle + Nulldrifter = 4 lands
Dress Down + Nulldrfiter = 3 lands
Thrull + Nulldrifter = 3 lands

4 lands is not easy with 18 lands, Wasteland, Daze, etc.
Stifle is also the worst one with Dreadnought. Maybe Stifle should be 3 copies. See this Ark4n Challenge Top 8 list with 3 Stifle: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=55839&d=615613&f=LE

This seems like a good starting point for UW

//Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
3 Island
1 Plains

//Threats: 10
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter
2 Murktide Regent

//Enablers: 10
3 Stifle
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Dress Down

//Core UW Spells: 16
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

Total = 54 cards main

Those are the best threats and spells. Can't go lower than 18 lands or 10 enablers. Leaves room for 6 more.

Competing for those last 6 slots:
4 Daze
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Lorien Revealed
1 Stifle
1 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Murktide Regent
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 blue fetch/dual

4 Daze + 2 Borrower matches past discussion.
Maybe 3 Daze + 1 Borrower + 1 Otawara + 1 Thrull

For the sideboard this looks good
//Side: 15
2 Force of Negation
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Unlicensed Hearse
2 Null Rod
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Ugin's Binding

Unlicensed Hearse is proven strong in Dreadnought. You can Crew with evoke Nulldrifter, even if you don't keep the creature.

Ugin's Binding has potential with Nulldrifter in slower grindy matches.

babau

06-01-2024, 03:42 PM

Dress+ nulldrifther 3 Land?

Why not +1 dress and +1 stifle

FTW

06-01-2024, 04:05 PM

Dress+ nulldrifther 3 Land?

Turn 2 Dress Down/Thrull end of turn
Turn 3 Nulldrifter

3 lands needed.

Stifle+Nulldrifter needs 4 lands & Turn 4 or later.

johncarvalho

06-01-2024, 04:25 PM

The problem is not if it gets answered, but paying the mana.

Stifle + Nulldrifter = 4 lands
Dress Down + Nulldrfiter = 3 lands
Thrull + Nulldrifter = 3 lands

4 lands is not easy with 18 lands, Wasteland, Daze, etc.
Stifle is also the worst one with Dreadnought. Maybe Stifle should be 3 copies. See this Ark4n Challenge Top 8 list with 3 Stifle: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=55839&d=615613&f=LE

This seems like a good starting point for UW

//Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
3 Island
1 Plains

//Threats: 10
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter
2 Murktide Regent

//Enablers: 10
3 Stifle
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Dress Down

//Core UW Spells: 16
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

Total = 54 cards main

Those are the best threats and spells. Can't go lower than 18 lands or 10 enablers. Leaves room for 6 more.

Competing for those last 6 slots:
4 Daze
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Lorien Revealed
1 Stifle
1 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Murktide Regent
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 blue fetch/dual

4 Daze + 2 Borrower matches past discussion.
Maybe 3 Daze + 1 Borrower + 1 Otawara + 1 Thrull

For the sideboard this looks good
//Side: 15
2 Force of Negation
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Unlicensed Hearse
2 Null Rod
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Ugin's Binding

Unlicensed Hearse is proven strong in Dreadnought. You can Crew with evoke Nulldrifter, even if you don't keep the creature.

Ugin's Binding has potential with Nulldrifter in slower grindy matches.

in some matchups you want both null rod and grave hate, doesnt unlicensed hearse make a bad gravehate choice because of that?

babau

06-01-2024, 04:29 PM

Turn 2 Dress Down/Thrull end of turn
Turn 3 Nulldrifter

3 lands needed.

Stifle+Nulldrifter needs 4 lands & Turn 4 or later.

Dress down Need sacrifie It at the end of turn;-)

babau

06-01-2024, 04:42 PM

If you play regent and nulldrifther
slip out the back Is possibile Better that
Dress down.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

06-01-2024, 04:47 PM

Dress down Need sacrifie It at the end of turn;-)

If you cast it on your op's end step it won't sacrifice until the next endstep at the end of your turn

FTW

06-01-2024, 05:02 PM

in some matchups you want both null rod and grave hate, doesnt unlicensed hearse make a bad gravehate choice because of that?

In what matches? If it's a common problem, Containment Priest should work over Hearse. It also answers any cheatyface Eldrazi stuff.

These recent lists all ran Null Rod with Hearse:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=56016&d=617310&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=55839&d=615613&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=55657&d=614220&f=LE

FTW

06-01-2024, 05:04 PM

If you play regent and nulldrifther
slip out the back Is possibile Better that
Dress down.

Slip Out the Back+Nulldrifter is also 4 lands & turn 4.

If you don't know how to do Turn 2 Dress Down Turn 3 Nulldrifter, you're missing good lines to the deck!

babau

06-01-2024, 05:08 PM

If you cast it on your op's end step it won't sacrifice until the next endstep at the end of your turn
Truly? this is new to me I thought it couldn't be done....but thinking about it for a moment (I'm a noob ;-)) then it's a really strong play.
4 dress;-) stable

johncarvalho

06-01-2024, 05:25 PM

In what matches? If it's a common problem, Containment Priest should work over Hearse. It also answers any cheatyface Eldrazi stuff.

These recent lists all ran Null Rod with Hearse:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=56016&d=617310&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=55839&d=615613&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=55657&d=614220&f=LE

stuff like painter or storm to name a couple

FTW

06-01-2024, 06:31 PM

stuff like painter or storm to name a couple

Hmm for both those matches there are enough tools already: 2 Surgical, 2 Force of Negation, 2 Null Rod, Flusterstorm. Also blue blasts & Prismatic Ending vs Painter. Plus maindeck Force, Daze, Stifle. Don't need to bring in 15 cards. We can attack such combo decks on enough angles without needing 4x grave hate.

Same with Cephalid Breakfast. We don't need Hearse. 2 Surgical, 2 Force of Negation, Null Rod, Flusterstorm, 4 Force of Will, 3 Stifle, 4 Dress Down, 3-4 Thrull... They are not getting anywhere with Thassa's Oracle or Stoneforge.

These matchups are easy wins. Don't need overkill hate.

Fair midrange matchups are harder. That's also where Hearse shines, slowly eating away at graveyard resources and threatening to 1-shot them.

johncarvalho

06-01-2024, 06:32 PM

Hmm for both those matches there are enough tools already: 2 Surgical, 2 Force of Negation, 2 Null Rod, Flusterstorm. Also blue blasts & Prismatic Ending vs Painter. Plus maindeck Force, Daze, Stifle. Don't need to bring in 15 cards. We can attack such combo decks on enough angles without needing 4x grave hate.

Same with Cephalid Breakfast. We don't need Hearse. 2 Surgical, 2 Force of Negation, Null Rod, Flusterstorm, 4 Force of Will, 3 Stifle, 4 Dress Down, 3-4 Thrull... They are not getting anywhere with Thassa's Oracle or Stoneforge.

These matchups are easy wins. Don't need overkill hate.

Fair midrange matchups are harder. That's also where Hearse shines, slowly eating away at graveyard resources and threatening to 1-shot them.

great explanation, thank you for that :))

FTW

06-01-2024, 08:09 PM

Top 4 Legacy Challenge June 1st 2024: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=56138&d=618212&f=LE

Bant Pre-MH3 Nought

//Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Meticulous Archive
1 Island

//Creatures: 13
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Murktide Regent

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Life from the Loam

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Sideboard: 15
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Force of Negation
2 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Null Rod
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Unlicensed Hearse
2 Veil of Summer

For UW with Nulldrifter, we get about the same shell but cleaner mana.

//Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Otawara, Soaring City

//Creatures: 13
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Nulldrifter
2 Murktide Regent

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Ugin's Binding

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Sideboard: 15
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Force of Negation
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Unlicensed Hearse
1 Null Rod
1 Wrath of the Skies
1 Flusterstorm
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Back to Basics

Exact numbers on Narset, Null Rod & B2B will depend on the meta. Starting as 1-ofs for now.

Teferi, Time Raveler might be better for removing noncreatures than bounce like Brazen Borrower.

Wrath of the Skies looks worth testing.
For WW it kills: Artifact lands, Urza's Saga, Constructs, Chalice of the Void, Moxes, Petals, Baubles, Orc armies, Rhinos, random tokens
For 1WW it kills all those plus: Delver, DRC, Vexing Bauble, Vial, Mother of Runes, Elvish Reclaimer, Elves, Stalactite Stalker, Exploration, Needle, random artifact trinkets, 1-mana flip walkers
For 2WW it kills those plus: Beanstalk, Bowmaster, Questing Druid, Thalia, Animate Dead, Stoneforge, Patchwork Automaton, Painter's Servant, Goblin Engineer, many Goblins, many things
Nulldrifter & Murktide are both safe from it!

johncarvalho

06-03-2024, 12:56 PM

FTW

06-03-2024, 06:44 PM

as we are playing like a tempo deck, ist hullbreacher better then narset?
atm im thinking about ratchet bomb/powder keg, instead of wrath.
is prismatic ending worth in the uw shell even with access to only 2 colors?

Good questions.

Narset is for midrange/control matchups like Beans. Narset shuts off their draw engine and is harder to answer, while they have a ton of answers for Hullbreacher. We are not really speed-running those matches, just trying to not get blown out by all their removal. Narset replaces itself so you always trade positively, which helps in that fight. Hullbreacher often just trades 1-for-1 with a 1-mana removal.

Powder Keg was great pre-MH3. Tough to evaluate it vs Wrath post-MH3. Powder Keg does the job well but misses enchantments. I like that Wrath is "X or less" instead of "equal to X". Wrath answers artifact lands, Urza's Saga, constructs, and cheap artifacts all at once. Deserves testing.

Ratchet Bomb hits more permanents but misses Artifact lands and Urza's Saga. Blue artifacts look to be strong post-MH3. But it's hard to predict the new meta.

Prismatic Ending is worse with 2 colors. The deck needs noncreature removal though. March of Otherworldly Light is underwhelming too. Maybe the slot is better as another Wrath of the Skies, Ratchet Bomb, Powder Keg, or Serenity. Needs testing.

johncarvalho

06-04-2024, 07:01 AM

Good questions.

Narset is for midrange/control matchups like Beans. Narset shuts off their draw engine and is harder to answer, while they have a ton of answers for Hullbreacher. We are not really speed-running those matches, just trying to not get blown out by all their removal. Narset replaces itself so you always trade positively, which helps in that fight. Hullbreacher often just trades 1-for-1 with a 1-mana removal.

Powder Keg was great pre-MH3. Tough to evaluate it vs Wrath post-MH3. Powder Keg does the job well but misses enchantments. I like that Wrath is "X or less" instead of "equal to X". Wrath answers artifact lands, Urza's Saga, constructs, and cheap artifacts all at once. Deserves testing.

Ratchet Bomb hits more permanents but misses Artifact lands and Urza's Saga. Blue artifacts look to be strong post-MH3. But it's hard to predict the new meta.

Prismatic Ending is worse with 2 colors. The deck needs noncreature removal though. March of Otherworldly Light is underwhelming too. Maybe the slot is better as another Wrath of the Skies, Ratchet Bomb, Powder Keg, or Serenity. Needs testing.

I feel WW in Wrath makes it a harder choice then keg/bomb, not sure

Captain Hammer

06-04-2024, 07:02 PM

I already posted my thoughts on Monoblue earlier. But Ive talked up Thrull since day one and do think that in the current meta, the white splash is worth it even for just Thrull alone.

As far UW goes…

The problem is not if it gets answered, but paying the mana.

Stifle + Nulldrifter = 4 lands
Dress Down + Nulldrfiter = 3 lands
Thrull + Nulldrifter = 3 lands

4 lands is not easy with 18 lands, Wasteland, Daze, etc.
Stifle is also the worst one with Dreadnought. Maybe Stifle should be 3 copies. See this Ark4n Challenge Top 8 list with 3 Stifle: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=55839&d=615613&f=LE

This seems like a good starting point for UW

//Lands: 18
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
3 Island
1 Plains

//Threats: 10
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter
2 Murktide Regent

//Enablers: 10
3 Stifle
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Dress Down

//Core UW Spells: 16
4 Force Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares

Total = 54 cards main

Those are the best threats and spells. Can't go lower than 18 lands or 10 enablers. Leaves room for 6 more.

Competing for those last 6 slots:
4 Daze
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Lorien Revealed
1 Stifle
1 Doorkeeper Thrull
1 Murktide Regent
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 blue fetch/dual

4 Daze + 2 Borrower matches past discussion.
Maybe 3 Daze + 1 Borrower + 1 Otawara + 1 Thrull

For the sideboard this looks good
//Side: 15
2 Force of Negation
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Unlicensed Hearse
2 Null Rod
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Ugin's Binding

Unlicensed Hearse is proven strong in Dreadnought. You can Crew with evoke Nulldrifter, even if you don't keep the creature.

Ugin's Binding has potential with Nulldrifter in slower grindy matches.

This is a really excellent analysis of the optimal UW build post MH3. I think you are spot on regarding what to play.

I think Bant still has potential though. Uro drawing cards every swing is a big upgrade over Murktide.

For the Bant list I would play the same core as UW above except…

18 Lands

//Threats: 11
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter
3 Uro

//Enablers: 11
3-4 Doorkeeper Thrull
3-4 Stifle
4 Dress Down

//Core Spells: 20
4 Force Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2-3 Daze
1-2 Prismatic Ending

Prismatic Ending is our answer to a resolved Chalice. Daze is my pick for the remaining slots. Daze is really key to the early game and as an unexpected 2 of, its also going to be relevent mid to late game.

I am also excited to try Jeskai. It would be identical to above but playing Phlage, Titan of Fire's Fury in place of Uro. Trading the card draw for a resolved Lightning Bolt doesnt seem like a bad trade. But not being able to pitch Phlage to FoW is a bummer.

And as a big fan of Thoughtseize in this deck as a way to clear the path for Nought, I think Nulldrifter enables a very potent Esper list with Dreadnought, Nulldrifter, Murktide and possibly a few Death’s Shadow as the threatbase.

johncarvalho

06-06-2024, 04:37 AM

I already posted my thoughts on Monoblue earlier. But Ive talked up Thrull since day one and do think that in the current meta, the white splash is worth it even for just Thrull alone.

As far UW goes…

This is a really excellent analysis of the optimal UW build post MH3. I think you are spot on regarding what to play.

I think Bant still has potential though. Uro drawing cards every swing is a big upgrade over Murktide.

For the Bant list I would play the same core as UW above except…

18 Lands

//Threats: 11
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro
3 Nulldrifter

//Enablers: 10-11
3 Stifle
3-4 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Dress Down

//Core Spells: 20
4 Force Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Daze
0-1 Lorien Revealed

Prismatic Ending is our answer to a resolved Chalice. Daze is my pick for the remaining slots. Daze is really key to the early game and as an unexpected 2 of, its also going to be relevent mid to late game.

I am also excited to try Jeskai. It would be identical to above but playing Phlage, Titan of Fire's Fury in place of Uro. Trading the card draw for a resolved Lightning Bolt doesnt seem like a bad trade. But not being able to pitch Phlage to FoW is a bummer.

And as a big fan of Thoughtseize in this deck as a way to clear the path for Nought, I think Nulldrifter enables a very potent Esper list with Dreadnought, Nulldrifter, Murktide and possibly a few Death’s Shadow as the threatbase.
jeskai enables fling :tongue:

babau

06-06-2024, 07:59 AM

why 4 uro and 3 nulldrifter?

1)uro is legendary

2) in round 3 better nulldrifter in to play

3) multiple uro in hand/graveyard is only for pitch

johncarvalho

06-07-2024, 10:24 AM

Im thinking nulldrifter, dreadnought and st katherine are the creatures I would use, as you dont need your graveyard for them to work, and you can pack in stuff like rest in peace in the sb.

babau

06-07-2024, 10:49 AM

Im thinking nulldrifter, dreadnought and st katherine are the creatures I would use, as you dont need your graveyard for them to work, and you can pack in stuff like rest in peace in the sb.

+1
Totally agree

someone tested ledger shredder ?

Clark Kant

06-12-2024, 08:09 AM

Here is some early gameplay of Dressnought featuring Nulldrifter…

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAFGFhdXajI&pp=ygUZRWFybHkgYWNjZXNzIG10ZyBjcnVjaWJsZQ%3D%3D

babau

06-12-2024, 10:22 AM

I'm not sure that with nulldrifther the regent slots are well spent.

Captain Hammer

06-24-2024, 01:42 PM

I'm not sure that with nulldrifther the regent slots are well spent.

I think its worthwhile as a 1-3 of.

Boshnroll posted a fantastic video with UW Dressnought…

https://youtu.be/41AWAgAzOtc?si=ukuGjIrNhv96Gpi5

babau

06-25-2024, 04:28 PM

Seeing BoshnRoll play is a privilege, it always gives the impression of having everything under control.

two considerations on the build the regent has never been decisive, the manabase is solid and we have the stifles to protect us from wasteland why not otawara in 1x?

babau

07-03-2024, 05:45 AM

given that the main seems quite solid to me and only two or three cards vary based on personal preferences, we could start discussing side choices based on the meta.

FTW

07-03-2024, 05:20 PM

given that the main seems quite solid to me and only two or three cards vary based on personal preferences, we could start discussing side choices based on the meta.

The maindeck is far from solved. There are many versions running around.

Esper Frog 1st place: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=56947&d=624929&f=LE

//Creatures: 15
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Psychic Frog
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
3 Nulldrifter
1 Brazen Borrower

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze

//Enchantments: 3
3 Dress Down

//Lands: 19
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Meticulous Archive
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland

UW Thrull 1st place: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=56922&d=624504&f=LE

//Creatures: 13
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Nulldrifter
1 Brazen Borrower

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
1 Lorien Revealed

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Lands: 19
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Wasteland

UW 15land brew 1st place: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=56962&d=625041&f=LE

//Creatures: 11
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
3 Nulldrifter
1 Triumph of Saint Katherine

//Spells: 29
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
4 Daze
2 Wrath of the Skies

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Lands: 16
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Sink into Stupor
4 Wasteland

(16 lands and so few "Island" seems too greedy, but I like the Wrath tech for the board)

babau

07-05-2024, 05:16 AM

The most played list is uw.
the others are sporadic for now.
Like the one from boshnroll

Captain Hammer

07-07-2024, 10:09 PM

Uro is much better than Psychic Frog.

Play this list…

https://youtu.be/41AWAgAzOtc?si=ukuGjIrNhv96Gpi5

But add 3 Uro and the 4th Thrull.

FTW

07-21-2024, 12:31 AM

ThrabenU 4-1 with UW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcj_IPKEGOw
4-0 / 8-0 in first 4 rounds, only losing Round 5 after horrible variance in land draws

This looks so much better since pivoting off Uro.

//Creatures: 13
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Nulldrifter
1 Brazen Borrower

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
2 Island
1 Plains

//Sideboard: 15
2 Harbinger of the Seas
2 Force of Negation
2 Wrath of the Skies
2 Prismatic Ending
1 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Hydroblast
1 Deafening Silence
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Another 1st place list: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=57397&d=628670&f=LE

babau

07-21-2024, 05:42 PM

I play the same list but with
-1 thrull +1 brazen
-1 tundra+1 otawara

FTW

07-22-2024, 04:22 PM

I play the same list but with
-1 thrull +1 brazen
-1 tundra+1 otawara

I like the extra bounce to answer Chalice @ 1 on the draw G1. Also Ensnaring Bridge.

What do you have in your SB? Harbinger and Wrath seem strong in the right matches.

babau

07-23-2024, 12:11 PM

2 hydroblast
1 blue elemental blast
2 force of negation
2 surgical
2rest in peace
2 stony of silence
1 back to basic (like it more the harbinger)
1 containement priest (now is very strong possible +1)
2 prismatic

I'm keeping this but I'm practically not playing due to work.:-)

I'm very curious to try Tamiyo
with 4 brainstorms and 4 nulldrifthers, it seems easy enough to flip it.

tamiyo round 1, thrull opponed eot round 2 e nulldrifther turn 3 ......................:cool::cool::cool:

Another card that seems worth trying is deem inferior,:smile:

babau

07-29-2024, 06:27 AM

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=57887&d=632508&f=LE

curie--tamyio

Captain Hammer

07-30-2024, 08:02 AM

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=57887&d=632508&f=LE

curie--tamyio

Curie is cool tech but the deck has minimal room for flex slots. Its insane this listisnt playing Nulldrifter for instance.

Dressnought is having its moment though. It has the second best win record in the format and very few decks are prepared for it.

FTW

07-30-2024, 10:30 AM

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=57887&d=632508&f=LE

curie--tamyio

That's a large event top 8! 226 players.

Curie + Tamiyo instead of Thrull + Nulldrifter, otherwise the same UW shell.

Also interesting to see what else made top 8:
4x UBx Force of Frog (fair card is fair)
2x colorless Fleshraker decks (Eldrazi, Mystic Forge)
1x Cradle Control (8 Reclaimer + Nantuko)

Post MH3 meta.

FTW

08-28-2024, 02:15 PM

@Fox: TombNought Challenge Top 8
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=58575&d=638363&f=LE

4x counter target Eldrazi/Bauble

8Stifle+Parallax Tide is hilarious tech
Exile 5 lands, upkeep Stifle, go.

Captain Hammer

08-28-2024, 08:02 PM

@Fox: TombNought Challenge Top 8
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=58575&d=638363&f=LE

4x counter target Eldrazi/Bauble

8Stifle+Parallax Tide is hilarious tech
Exile 5 lands, upkeep Stifle, go.

Damn, that is such a cool list. Its awesome that its monoblue.

I see every reason to cut an Island for an Otawara, Soaring City.

I would also want to play 2 maindeck Harbinger of the Seas to maximize the synergy with Parrallax Tide. Not sure what to cut to make room. I also really want to add atleast 1 Tamiyo

-1 Island
+1 Otawara, Soaring City
-1 Wasteland/Ancient Tomb
-1 Dress Down/Daze
-1 Dreadnought
+1/2 Tamiyo
+1/2 Harbinger of the Seas
+0/1 Brazen Borrower

FTW

09-09-2024, 04:46 AM

BUG Dreadnought tech: https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=59246&d=643828&f=LE

Back on Uro and no Thrulls, so there are no threats that can be stolen/Reanimated. Uro's also great against all the Thoughtseize decks.

Black is just for Fatal Push & SB Sudden Edict, Toxic Deluge, Opposition Agent. Those seem worse than white for Swords to Plowshares, Prismatic Ending and SB Wrath of the Skies. Maybe black is to bluff that they're a Frog deck, so opponent misboards. Pyroblast and Fatal Push are a lot worse against Uro than Frog!

Captain Hammer

09-25-2024, 09:51 PM

Black is only worth splashing for Thoughseize as a way to clear the path for your Dreadnought. But I vastly prefer UW and UWg lists with a light green splash for Uro.

Here is the list that Im having success with right now…

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Meticulous Archive
1 Sink into Stupor

1 Brazen Borrower
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Nulldrifter

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Dress Down
4 FoW
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshare
1 Cosign to Memory

Consign is very useful in the current meta where as Doorkeeper Thrull while relevant against several matchups is never a card that I want to see 2 copies of and doesnt even pitch to Force.

FTW

12-13-2024, 11:19 PM

Re Fox:
Stiflenought is not a competitive strategy
MTGO Results are small-event flukes
3c mana is unstable
CurieNought is not viable, discarding 3 cards
BoshNRoll is not a good Dreadnought player
something something Dreadstill
...

The new wave of cards has debunked all that. Blue has strong CA at 1-2 cmc. Standstill is outclassed in this meta (either by better draw engines or threats that get under it). Meta favors playing maindeck Dreadnought enablers (Consign).

Esper Dreadnought Top 8 Eternal Weekend Europe (832 players)
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=62405&d=670726&f=LE

BoshNRoll Tournament Report:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWzUp9Y_xLw

Decklist

//Lands: 20
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
1 Island
1 Otawara, Soaring City
3 Wasteland

//Creatures: 13
3 Tamiyo, Inquisitive Student
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Psychic Frog
2 Curie, Emergent Intelligence
2 Abhorrent Oculus

//Spells: 25
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Stifle
2 Consign to Memory
3 Daze
1 Lórien Revealed

//Enchantments: 2
2 Dress Down

//Sideboard: 15
3 Hydroblast
2 Consign to Memory
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Court of Grace
2 Barrowgoyf

lavafrogg

12-14-2024, 04:45 AM

Holy shit.

An active threat on the source popped up in my search about Dreadnaught it’s 2005 all over again.

That being said, one placement does not make a deck viable. The dreadnought lists are getting better and better and should take a step forward post bans Monday. Curie is super cool as an ophidian that can straight up with the game as a 12/12 that can draw a million and is great in helping the deck have no bad cards.

The issues I have been running into is what to do with NullDrifter and how to win matchups where doorkeeper thrull
Is kind of a dead card. Curie kind of eliminates both issues and I already have them ordered to try in a post frog world.

FTW

12-14-2024, 08:55 AM

Captain Hammer

12-14-2024, 09:59 AM

It's not just 1 placement. That's Top 8 of Eternal Weekend (800+ players).

Stiflenought is 3% of the Legacy meta on MTG Top 8, the 2nd most successful "control" deck (should be tempo):
https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=85&meta=34&f=LE

This all makes sense since the format has degenerated to a bunch of combo decks and aggro, with low control/midrange presence. Stiflenought is good against combo and tempo but bad against control and midrange.

Nulldrifter and Thrull seem suboptimal in this meta though. Thrull is very bad vs Reanimate (they steal your Dreadnoughts).

So if they ban Reanimate or Entomb on Monday, this deck goes up a tier? That would be fun to finally see this deck at Tier One.

Thought literally every single time boshnroll plays this deck on youtube, he goes 5-0 or 4-1 and makes the deck seem tier one. Bosh is just a NoughtHead at heart I guess.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

12-14-2024, 02:46 PM

Re Fox:

I don't think he survived the email verification purge.
You can let him go

FTW

12-14-2024, 06:37 PM

I don't think he survived the email verification purge.
You can let him go

When was this purge?

Anyway it's relevant for any newer Dreadnought player reading thread history. There are a lot of pages advising this strategy doesn't work. Recent results show it does.

@CaptainHammer: Hard to say. If the new meta has less Reanimator, then Thrull and Nulldrifter get better. But if the new meta is less combo-heavy and control bounces back, then Dreadnought overall gets worse.

And we don't even know what they'll ban. Frog is likely. Entomb/Reanimate? Maybe not. Bauble? Maybe. Fleshraker or Nadu? Less likely. The meta may still be full of Reanimator, Nadu and Forge/Eldrazi.

colo

12-26-2024, 05:31 AM

I don't think he survived the email verification purge.
You can let him go

But... but... but that's horrible! :cry:

I'd very much like to help him (and any other legitimate user that we lost due to collateral damage inflicted by any anti-spam measures) get back on The Source, if possible. My mail for that pupose is c0l0@gmx.at - please drop me a line there (or send me a PM in the forums, if you still can :rolleyes:) if you were affected, or know someone who was and who would like to be brought back.

Thanks.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

12-26-2024, 11:16 AM

But... but... but that's horrible! :cry:

Not as horrible as their posting.
Fox is a mess. Fox is a waste.

Fox

12-28-2024, 06:14 AM

Not as horrible as their posting.
Fox is a mess. Fox is a waste.
Haven't played legacy in like 6 months or so and you're still up to this content-bereft nonsense.

Legacy just isn't all that interesting when wotc continues to mismanage 1/5th of the color pie and make the kill spell and artifact kill color (red), fail to accomplish it's entire purpose. The Psychic Frog stuff was particularly stupid vs Lightning Bolt. The indestructible text on Kaldra, particularly after deciding to protect illegitimate game objects (tokens) from phasing, certainly didn't help things. Still got this x/4 Nadu nonsense going on. So legacy still has this 5c game with only 4 functional colors issue, and then we continue to see the same tired failure to address the Black Lotus + Timetwister issue (Echo), and the revisiting of tired nonsense of 2 mana end-the-game enchantments (CB -> Beanstalk) and periods where for some inexplicable reason we're revisiting double discard on turn 0 (Probe/Therapy -> Grief). It's not really a functional format when you're both down a color and have diversity-crippling nonsense.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

12-28-2024, 11:36 AM

Haven't played legacy in like 6 months or so and you're still up to this content-bereft nonsense.

You still have the reading comprehension of a child. Go back to your hole.

Fox

12-29-2024, 04:52 AM

You still have the reading comprehension of a child. Go back to your hole.
"Fox is a mess. Fox is a waste." into "You still have the reading comprehension of a child. Go back to your hole." Pretty sure I'm not missing anything in the reading comprehension department. All I see is a little troll who decided to click submit on some moronic post to smear a player who hasn't touched magic in like 6 months. Maybe next time just don't submit pointless nonsense like this.

Same tired invitation as always: Add content bud.

Ran into a Stiflenought deck playing some UWr Standstill today for fun. Didn't go well for them, but they were trying to play 4c with Hierarchs in some Yorion shell; probably had Beanstalk since they had Leyline Binding. Pretty consistently found themselves running a 4-5 card in hand deficit. The Consign to Memory stuff was cute, but without the ability to attack mana with Stifle I just played lands and didn't play into Daze nor have to pitch-cast FoW. Given the lack of credible threat at 1 mana, I just did the thing I was already doing - playing lands and waiting. I guess Consign picks up some points vs Chalice/Karn/Ring/Eldrazi + cast trigger, and may very rarely stop an LED into Echo, but you are losing a lot of points vs control and midrange (incorrectly classified as control, e.g. Blade, Uro, Bean, Strix/Hymn, UWr soup).

Notably the card does combo with Standstill, where at the 2 mana mark you can cast into your own Standstill to prevent hostile Saga from gaining construct ability while using the replicate trigger stacking to keep Standstill in play. At higher mana counts you can cast threat into Standstill, Consign that trigger and target the replicate at the trigger made by Consign. AP/NAP order shouldn't matter if the Consign is cast by the Standstill controller. Dreadstill is the natural direction testing should first go, if going hard on Consign over Stifle.

So @Fourdogs, maybe focus more on things like mechanics, selecting Dreadnought tech that fundamentally synergizes with a CA suite, and has favorable interactions vs the mirror's CA suite (i.e. naw I'll counter your Mulldrifter and the draw 2 with 1 card, but like it was cool that the Mulldrifter user wanted the evoke/draw2/Consign the evoke sacrifice trigger stuff). So you want to then maybe try your hand at some second level analysis and think about how to address known deficits (like not getting on board on turn 1 despite being "tempo" and using Daze) and addressing problem matchups in a different way (CA).

Don't get me wrong, analysis like that is harder than your mindless personal attack posts; but like I saw the Consign card <1 day ago and the theory bit is already solved - the highest synergy CA engine is just that obvious. Maybe try harder man? Like wasn't this set released June 2024; I feel like you've had time to come up with something. Looking forward to your next troglodyte attack post completely absent of substance. Who knows, maybe you'll surprise us all with something of substance.

FTW

12-29-2024, 07:55 AM

Ran into a Stiflenought deck playing some UWr Standstill today for fun. Didn't go well for them, but they were trying to play 4c with Hierarchs in some Yorion shell; probably had Beanstalk since they had Leyline Binding. Pretty consistently found themselves running a 4-5 card in hand deficit. The Consign to Memory stuff was cute, but without the ability to attack mana with Stifle I just played lands and didn't play into Daze nor have to pitch-cast FoW. Given the lack of credible threat at 1 mana, I just did the thing I was already doing - playing lands and waiting. I guess Consign picks up some points vs Chalice/Karn/Ring/Eldrazi + cast trigger, and may very rarely stop an LED into Echo, but you are losing a lot of points vs control and midrange (incorrectly classified as control, e.g. Blade, Uro, Bean, Strix/Hymn, UWr soup).

You haven't played in a while so you probably didn't notice that the Legacy meta devolved into 40-50% combo and < 15% control/midrange for the last 3 months.

Not just Leagues, but also Challenges and large paper tournaments. At Eternal Weekend Asia & North America, only combo decks posted 53%+ win rate (Mystic Forge, Nadu, Reanimator, Breakfast, Doomsday). Control/midrange was borderline unplayable, sub-50% win rate and negligible top 8 presence.

Maindeck Consign is strong against colorless decks (Mystic Forge, Eldrazi), triggered ability combo decks (Thassa, Storm), and red artifact decks (Moon Stompy and Red Painter were both common). Consign also countered Vexing Bauble in decks trying to keep you off Force/Daze. Consign gained a lot of points in top matchups, and cost points against decks that were not making top brackets anyway. It was an auto 4-of in most blue decks (in SB), Dreadnought got to maindeck some for better game 1s.

In that degenerate combo-aggro meta, you 100% wanted to be on Daze instead of Standstill. Especially with proactive CA at 1-2 mana: Tamiyo, Inquisitive Student, Psychic Frog, 2-mana Ophidian 5&6 (Curie). Dreadnought could finally solve the CA problem below 3 mana (Uro/Nulldrifter) without playing Standstill, and synergizing better with Daze.

Now with Frog & Bauble banned, fair decks are coming back and combo is losing meta share, and Dreadnought can't lean on Frog as card draw. But Tamiyo is still a great way to get on board turn 1! Nethergoyf and Abhorrent Oculus also exist. Tempo Dreadnought can get on board faster than it used to.

4c Yorion Stiflenought Beans looks like a player error... Dreadnought is bad with Yorion, bad with Beans, and worse in 80-card. Look at the Stiflenought builds that have been posting results.

Fox

01-02-2025, 02:04 AM

I think a lot of those paths are pretty suspect. If you go Uro for CA, you run Goyf into basically every SB (GY hate). If you go for Nulldrifter, you're stuck waiting for other blue decks to stop over-slotting Consign. If you choose Tamiyo, you're getting hit by Bowmancer and Karakas; also you'll increasingly run into Bolt...but WotC hasn't really woken up and realized they need red to be able to kill creatures. They still need to ban 5 toughness landcycle Troll and Nadu...otherwise we've basically reached the point where they need to reprint Bolt to say: deal 8 to target creature or 3 damage to any other target + damage exiles Kaldra token. If WotC fixes the "we're missing the 5th color" issue, it will be hard when we add Bolt to the list of things Tamiyo needs to not be paired against. If WotC messes up the ban and continues to careen towards needing to print super-Bolt, Tamiyo would similarly need to be avoided.

I guess you play Tamiyo for the next 3 months, hoping Nadu and Troll keep Bolt out of the format, and obligatorily play Bowmancer to protect Tamiyo from Bowmancer. Then if WotC correctly bans Nadu and Troll (they'll bungle this one since they are looking at Entomb/Reanimate)...and Consign use falls off enough (meaning the ban also has to hit Eldrazi land kill guy), then swap Tamiyo back to Nulldrifter and hope to dodge the 4x Consign Nought mirror. With Tamiyo, it also needs to be pointed out that you basically have to have a mana up and a Brainstorm in hand to have a reasonable shot at a good outcome with Tamiyo in battlefield zone. Chalice is coming back, so Tamiyo has that issue lingering as well in a deck with cantrip cartel and Nought.

The other question with Tamiyo is why you wouldn't just basically cheat and play Echo. Turn 0 mana -> Tamiyo -> LED -> Echo (trigger, enemy kill spells offline) -> uptick city -> threaten to draw half your deck in a few turns and win with whatever? Why are you messing with Nought when you could be playing 2 banned cards: Black Lotus and pick one of the following: Timetwister/Wheel/Memory Jar/Winfall; all while removing your opponent's ability to keep a hand of their choosing? Feels like you're working too hard by playing Tamiyo with Nought; they don't really share any tech, and Tamiyo doesn't exactly pull interaction away from Nought (Karakas, Bowmancer, and Bolt are not well known for their Dreadnought-stopping ability).

FTW

01-02-2025, 09:46 AM

Uro is old tech. I meant the newer tech (Tamiyo, Curie, Frog) allowed CA at 1-2 mana proactive plays, fitting better with the tempo plan, instead of the older 3 mana tech. Most players have been off Uro for a while.

Nulldrifter was bad in the recent meta (Reanimate steals, high rate of Consigns). Oculus is a better 3-mana plan: 5/5 flying, manifests Dreadnought, source of CA.

Tamiyo's seen a lot of play (UB Tempo, etc) and proven its value. Granted Bolt was deleted from the format for a few months. But it's still seeing play now even with more Bolts around post-Frog. Tamiyo doesn't need to flip, combo with Echo, or even have Brainstorm up. You can often play it into removal. Then they have less removal for your bigger plays (Dreadnought, Oculus). UB Tempo used the same principle very effectively to draw removal from Psychic Frog.

One of Tamiyo's advantages is the tension it creates. As a 1-mana curve out into a bigger threat, they don't want to waste removal on it. But if they don't, then the CA spirals out of control. If it's removed, you only lost 1 card and 1 mana. Opponent doesn't know if you have Brainstorm next turn, have a followup threat, have extra Tamiyos in hand, or kept a weak hand relying on the CA. It puts them into making suboptimal decisions. This play does work better when they're on removal that answers both Tamiyo & Dreadnought (Fatal Push, Swords) than when they use separate answers (RUG's Bolt + Meltdown/Consign).

Bowmasters is not that bad. If Bowman is on board, don't Brainstorm or Brainstorm on their turn (APNAP flips Tamiyo first). If they keep 1B open all game to trap you, just attack and make clues, let them mana deny themselves vs a Daze+Stifle+Wasteland deck while you EOT crack clues.

Echo decks don't really need Tamiyo's slow grind to win. LED+Echo has also had a very small meta presence: walked into Reanimator hate, Vexing Bauble, Painter's red blasts, Bowmasters, Psychic Frog. It might start making a comeback. TonyScapone won a recent Challenge with TEG. But his Legendary creature or choice is Birgi, not Tamiyo.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

02-22-2026, 06:12 PM

Been a while! Nearly a year! But I have a list for y'all.
https://moxfield.com/decks/3OvCY9P42kyY07WPt2H6Xw
This is where I'm at right now and I have been loving it. I had saga but I cut them for more wastelands

FTW

03-05-2026, 10:21 AM

Stiflenought is seeing less play in this fairer format while control decks are doing well. This build still made a recent Challenge Top 16:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=81155&d=816847&f=LE

//Lands: 19
4 Flooded Strand
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
1 Meticulous Archive
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Sink into Stupor

//Spells: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stifle
4 Daze

//Creatures: 14
4 Tamiyo, Inquisitive Student
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Doorkeeper Thrull
2 Nulldrifter
1 Abhorrent Oculus

//Enchantments: 4
4 Dress Down

//SB: 15
2 Consign to Memory
2 Force of Negation
2 Wrath of the Skies
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Clarion Conqueror
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Harbinger of the Seas
2 Triumph of Saint Katherine

Tamiyo and Oculus have proven themselves over time.

The deck now has plenty of proactive CA at low mana without needing to rely on comboing with 4 Uro/Nulldrifter (slow) or missing Standstill (design-limiting).

Thrull looks good again, with Reanimator finally banned out of dominance, and more fair decks running ETB effects.