[SCD] Thran Turbine

[Reeplcheep]

There is a legacy legal sol ring that sees no play. No not Carpet of Flowers or even Magus of the Vineyard.

Thran Turbine
{1}
Artifact
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may add {C}{C}. You can’t spend this mana to cast spells.
When Urza asked the viashino what it did, they answered: “It hums.”

Previously in legacy there were basically no mana costing abilities that were playable. But several mechanics and powerhouse cards were printed recently that can use the mana:


Cycling (Shark Typhoon)

Foretell ( Behold the multiverse and starnheim unleashed )

Cheap Creatures (Elvish Reclaimer and Rishadan Dockhand )

Cheap artifacts and lands (Retrofitter Foundry and Urza’s saga)

From the selection of cards available it looks like it could fit in a blue steel stompy shell or a standstill one with minimal sacrifices to card quality. Any thoughts on whether it is powerful enough for legacy?

[H]

I think the notion that Turbine is "unplayable" is pretty historically entrenched that it would take definite results to show that it might not be. On the short list of things you mention, the "most" synergry I see would be between Reclaimer, Sage and Foundry. Perhaps add Loam or Ramunap Excavator and see how far one can just push Saga?

[Reeplcheep]

That’s definitely option A for the best combo, since saga gets either pieces.

Option B is hall of heliod plus sharktyphoon. Island turbine lets you make a 1/1 shark draw a card immediately and still have a mana left over. And then your engine is uncounterable bigger and bigger sharks. The instant speed of this one is the attraction, letting you “cash in” immediately. It also makes the best use of multiples.

[H]

A good point, since I don't own any Saga's yet myself, I actually forgot that it was an Enchantment for a moment. But wouldn't Saga also be good there as well, since, one, it finds Turbine and two, it draws the attention of opposing Wastelands, so you Hall is more likely to live.

One neat thing about Green is that you can also add Green Sun's Zenith which, while it can't be used with Turbine, does get you Reclaimer or Excavator.

These are two interesting ways to try the concept I think. Not sure which is likely better though.

[Reeplcheep]

Here is a possible steel stompy list

4 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Winter Orb

4 Steel Overseer
4 Thran Turbine
3 Hangerback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Retrofitter Foundry
4 Arcbound Ravager

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Urza’s Saga
2 Inventors Fair


Yah the heliod would probably be in a saga land still shell.

[kombatkiwi]

The Shark Typhoon idea is not worth it, a control deck is not going to want to spend a whole card just to make shark +2+2 on the condition that you make it in your own upkeep

Using it to help activate retrofitter / urzas saga / ballista etc is a better idea I think but I'm still not convinced it's actually an improvement

[Reeplcheep]

That’s possible. But then why do you think carpet of flowers is so good in control? Heliod plus typhoon is the ultimate lategame engine for blue decks; having it online on t3 rather than t5 could make or break a game.

[rufus]

Other possible synergies are Field of Ruin or something like Grim Monolith that can launder the mana.

One of the issues with using Thran Turbine is that you have to commit during your own upkeep. I wonder how much better it would be if it gave mana during the opponent's end step instead.

[H]

The Shark Typhoon idea is not worth it, a control deck is not going to want to spend a whole card just to make shark +2+2 on the condition that you make it in your own upkeep

Using it to help activate retrofitter / urzas saga / ballista etc is a better idea I think but I'm still not convinced it's actually an improvement

Well, I think there really isn't a question if any of this is secretly Tier One. I think the real question is, maybe something here could be Tier Two? Saga is a silly card, it wouldn't shock me if it made some Tier 4 strategy into a vaguely competitive one though.

Perhaps, in a Green version, since we are thinking Reclaimer and Excavator, perhaps we throw in a couple Depths and Stages too?

[phonics]

Other possible synergies are Field of Ruin or something like Grim Monolith that can launder the mana.

One of the issues with using Thran Turbine is that you have to commit during your own upkeep. I wonder how much better it would be if it gave mana during the opponent's end step instead.

Way back when when Urza's block came out, I played an artifact deck with turbines and storage matrix (before it was errata'd) to untap grim monolith and phyrexian colossus or feed flowstone sculpture. It is too restrictive compared to carpet and there isn't much to abuse it, whereas everything has become so efficient that value is already inherent in most legacy playable cards like when they etb or die or you do any regular game action. It would probably need something like constantly churning sagas in a stax shell or something.

[Vacrix]

These seem like strong synergies
Mystic Remora
Elephant Grass

Mid synergies
Isochron Scepter

Weak synergies
Scroll Rack
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith

[FTW]

Thran Turbine has potential. I've brewed with it in casual formats, and it might have legs for Legacy play.

It's very useful for activated abilities.
Elvish Reclaimer -> Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths

Urza's Saga -> Retrofitter Foundry

You can also store unspent mana with cards like Upwelling, Kruphix, God of Horizons.

Edit: Hmm what about a Landstill deck


//Lands: 23
4 Urza's Saga
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Tundra
4 Island
3 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Hall of Storm Giants
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

//Artifacts: 6
3 Thran Turbine
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Expedition Map

//Spells: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict

//Enchantments: 8
2 Myth Realized
4 Standstill
2 Shark Typhoon

//Planeswalkers: 3
3 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Creatures: 2
2 Timeless Dragon


Many uses for that mana:
Activate Urza's Saga to make Construct on upkeep, before stage III
Cycle Timeless Dragon to get plains & shuffle before draw step
Cycle Shark Typhoon
Activate Retrofitter Foundry
Activate Expedition Map to find more Sagas or other utility land
Activate Hall of Heliod's Generosity on upkeep to reuse Urza's Sagas and Standstills & draw that turn
Animate Hall of Storm Giants when opponent is tapped down (Ward 3 means you'll know on upkeep whether it is safe to do so)
Put counters on Myth Realized

Curving a T1 Turbine or Myth into T2 Standstill should allow you to just play lands and pull ahead in the game.

[Noctalor]

The card could be useful if it was able to proc Saga decently, but you get the mana in upkeep, meaning that you can't use the mana for the first token of saga, given that you get to chapter2 in your main 1.

This, for me, sadly kills the card

[Reeplcheep]

Thoughts on jewelled amulet to evade the timing restrictions and use extra mana? It also enables mox opal well and is a decent answer to daze.

Retrofitter foundry or cycling can be used immediately which is nice.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Thoughts on jewelled amulet to evade the timing restrictions and use extra mana? It also enables mox opal well and is a decent answer to daze.

Retrofitter foundry or cycling can be used immediately which is nice.

You can only remove one mana at a time with Amulet and requires you to tap in and tap out.

[FTW]

The card could be useful if it was able to proc Saga decently, but you get the mana in upkeep, meaning that you can't use the mana for the first token of saga, given that you get to chapter2 in your main 1.

This, for me, sadly kills the card

It can't proc Saga's 1st construct. But it can make Construct #2, then fuel Retrofitter Foundry every turn (which Saga finds). That's a lot of value.

T1 Saga. Use mana to cast Turbine
T2 Miss the construct (play land & 2 drop? cycle dragon on upkeep for land fixing?)
T3 Use Turbine mana to make X/X Construct. Put Retrofitter Foundry into play.
T4 Use Turbine mana to make 1/1 Servo.
T5 Use Turbine mana to make 1/1 Servo.
T6 Use Turbine mana to make 1/1 Servo

Note the only 2 cards played here are Saga + Turbine. No other lands or cards are assumed. This engine makes an X/X and then tokens every turn without consuming any mana. The entire rest of your hand and mana are free to do anything else. As long as you have enough other abilities that can also use the 2 mana on upkeep then this seems playable.

Note that this doesn't involve casting any spells after T1, so that T2 could be casting Standstill. Opponent is forced to act into Standstill or you assemble an army machine. Without Thran Turbine you can't profitably play T1 Saga T2 Standstill (would miss both constructs and then waste all your lands making 1/1s).

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Now im suggesting Expedition Map... It really ups consistency. Hex Parasite also plays nice with saga and turbine.

But is this the "playing bad cards to enable other bad cards" trap?

I feel like Saga is the only good card in this thread :/

[Reeplcheep]

here is a screen shot where I beat a very aggressive delver start only having cast 1 spell (chrome mox) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-K_QgaVEAoj0Ka?format=jpg&name=large)

A bunch of sol lands powered my foundries in this case, but turbine would have done that more efficiently. Foundry and saga are absolutely good enough to win games of legacy by themselves, especially when turbine lets you use your mana on other things.

The question is what is the best supporting cast? The options are standstill/shark typhoon for CA and immediate cycling, or Reclaimer/map for more consistent sagas or ballista/mox opal for speed.

[Borg]

I remember I tried Thran Turbine when it was released with Spikes, especially Spike Feeder but that didn't really go anywhere back then.

By now we also have cards cards like Hardened Scales and Winding Constrictor and they're perfect for a Spike deck.

Included Thran Turbine in my spike deck for the sake of it and will see how it goes.

https://deckstats.net/decks/51702/1524615-spikes

[Fox]

There is a lot of variance you need to draw past if you're running do-nothings like Turbine. Even though cycling is consistency-positive, this is pretty reliant on A [Turbine] then B [cycling]. Imagine the problem: you don't have piece A, so you cycle your last piece B in hand -> you draw piece A off the cycle -> dead.

You need to do a ton of work to avoid the above sequence. I wouldn't even touch Turbine unless I was willing to absorb the variance of 4x Geier Reach Sanitarium, and yes, that's legendary. At least you can go turn 1 Geier, cast Turbine -> Turn 2 begin fixing hand with Geier off Turbine mana. I still don't think this is good enough for competitive play, but it's probably as close as you can get to mitigating such variance.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think this deck desperately wants a companion.

[FTW]

Unfortunately companion is sorcery speed, so Turbine's upkeep mana cannot pay for it.


I wouldn't even touch Turbine unless I was willing to absorb the variance of 4x Geier Reach Sanitarium, and yes, that's legendary. At least you can go turn 1 Geier, cast Turbine -> Turn 2 begin fixing hand with Geier off Turbine mana. I still don't think this is good enough for competitive play, but it's probably as close as you can get to mitigating such variance.

Why bother with Geier Reach when there are more competitive-viable cards that allow similar opening sequences:

Urza's Saga -> Retrofitter Foundry
You would miss out on the 1st Construct (unless you have some other way to generate mana), but otherwise Saga casts Turbine, then Turbine pays for 1 Construct and pays for Retrofitter activations every turn, freeing up the rest of your mana and hand to play normal Magic. The advantage here is that Saga + Retrofitter is already Legacy viable, you don't have to jump through extra hoops to justify those cards.

Other abilities you could activate with colorless mana on upkeep:
Sai, Master Thopterist
Urza, Lord High Artificer
Walking Ballista

Too bad there is no reason to ever play the above cards together with an artifact.

Perhaps the bigger issue is this deck is already tight enough and doesn't have room for Sol Rings when it could use that space on "2U: Mind Twist + draw 7" or "2: Counter every Brainstorm and Dark Ritual"

[Laser Brains]

Funny, a buddy of mine and I were recently trying to exploit Thran Turbine. We even both bought play sets. I was literally going through set spoilers looking for cards that could utilize the Turbine. I can't find the whole list.

I was trying to incorporate the card into my Tools n' Titans deck. I thought it would be awesome with Urza's Saga and Retrofitter Foundry. The nice synergy Turbine has with Saga is that Saga can tutor it. Also, Turbine can activate it for free once. Also, it's only a one drop so it can activate Mox Opal early and it taps to Tangle Wire. Obviously it's nice with Retrofitter.

Sadly I was unable, at the time, to find cards that could abuse it enough to make it worth it. Here is some of that partial list of cards I was looking at. Trying to post some that haven't been posted yet. I had another decklist saved somewhere with a huge list of cards. If I find it I'll post it.

Mirage Mirror
Mazemind Tome
Druidic Satchel
Golden Guardian
Masticore
Lesser Masticore
Molten-Tail Masticore
Buried Ruin
Inventor's Fair
Dwarven Miner
Dwarven Blastminer
Seismic Mage

[Laser Brains]

By the way, I was doing some pretty fun stuff with Turbine and Mazemind Tome while I was playing Tools n' Titans online. It makes a pretty cool draw engine. Once I got to 3 or so counters I'd sac it to Goblin Welder then weld it back in to draw more cards. Sometimes I needed the 4 life. It was surprisingly effective and fun.

[Barook]

By the way, I was doing some pretty fun stuff with Turbine and Mazemind Tome while I was playing Tools n' Titans online. It makes a pretty cool draw engine. Once I got to 3 or so counters I'd sac it to Goblin Welder then weld it back in to draw more cards. Sometimes I needed the 4 life. It was surprisingly effective and fun.
If you're up for some Welder/Daretti shenanigangs, then Angel of the Ruins/Ruin Grinder might be up your ally. Cycle in upkeep with Turbine mana, then recycle it with Welder/Daretti to bring in the big guys. If you want to expand on the cycle theme, throw in some Timeless Dragon as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4vqBY5DSqA

I'm thinking of a Stompy shell with Mox Diamond (which is fantastic with that many land cyclers) and a much more heavier artifact reanimation theme than the deck shown above in the video.

[Laser Brains]

If you're up for some Welder/Daretti shenanigangs, then Angel of the Ruins/Ruin Grinder might be up your ally. Cycle in upkeep with Turbine mana, then recycle it with Welder/Daretti to bring in the big guys. If you want to expand on the cycle theme, throw in some Timeless Dragon as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4vqBY5DSqA

I'm thinking of a Stompy shell with Mox Diamond (which is fantastic with that many land cyclers) and a much more heavier artifact reanimation theme than the deck shown above in the video.

Ruin Grinder is nuts! Thank you! Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as far as a artifact disruption theme. I’ve been working on a deck like this for some time. Done a lot of testing. Here’s the link (http://https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33581-Tools-N-Titans). I’d love to see what you think. Might have to test Ruin Grinder.

[Captain Hammer]

Thesipians Stage also has synergy with the card. Could play them alongside Expedition Map and a Dark Depths in the lands/Urza’s Saga builds.

[Reeplcheep]

One interesting card I hadn’t considered with Thran Turbine is Mirage Mirror. By copying a sol land it basically stores the mana from turbine, and it can do the same trick as thespian stage with depths or saga

[Reeplcheep]

After further reflection, the third and fourth best ways to use turbine are field of ruin and cycling lands. They can be used immediately on your first upkeep, less conditional than thespian stage, and have a low opportunity cost.

How about loam pox? Similar to lands but can more easily afford the density of basics to make field work. Discard can handle fast combo/prismatic ending without conflicting with all the 1 drops. Loam pox wants cycling lands anyways to support loam without having to run exploration.


4 Thoughtseize
2 Raven’s Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Life from the Loam
3 Witherbloom Command
1 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
4 Thran Turbine
3 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Shadowspear

4 Urza’s Saga
4 Field of Ruin
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Verdant
2 Prismatic Vista
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Polluted Mire

[JackaBo]

Elvish reclaimer too

[Reeplcheep]

The new channel lands and turtle could make it worth revisiting the landstill idea.


boseiju, who endures
Otawara, Soaring City
Eijango, Seat of the Empire
Colossal Skyturtle


Colossal skyturtle being able to regrow anything on t1 for G and pitch to force seems the most important pickup.

[Reeplcheep]

They printed a better blue Thran turbine. I think we could revisit this idea since we now have critical mass and it can be used for sorcery speed abilities. It also counts fetch lands and cycling cards for its second ability.


The Enigma Jewel {U}
Legendary Artifact
The Enigma Jewel enters the battlefield tapped.
{T}: Add {C}{C}. Spend this mana only to activate abilities.
Craft with four or more nonlands with activated abilities {8}{U} ({8}{U}, Exile this artifact, Exile the four or more from among other permanents you control and/or cards in your graveyard: Return this card transformed under its owner's control. Craft only as a sorcery.)
----
Locus of Enlightenment
Color Indicator: Blue
Legendary Artifact
Locus of Enlightenment has each activated ability of the exiled cards used to craft it. You may activate each of those abilities only once each turn.
Whenever you activate an ability that isn't a mana ability, copy it. You may choose new targets for the copy.

They are also several more cards with good activated abilities since.


Lorien Revealed
Skybinder Staff
Moonsnare Prototype
Mirrorshell Crab
The Balrog of Moria
Touch the Spirit Realm
Behold the multiverse
Curse of the Cabal

[Reeplcheep]

The mana can’t be used for triggered abilities, but I don’t think we mentioned any of those except for rystic study or the decree cycle.

[Reeplcheep]

Do 8 sol rings make absolute jank legacy playable? We have a pretty consistent plan of vomit out 1 mana permanents into sphere/standstill into ability value. You don’t go as big as 8cast but sphere is probably better than chalice and you avoid draw hate somewhat.


27 artifacts
4 The Enigma Jewel
4 Thran Turbine
3 Immovable Rod
3 Moonsnare Prototype
4 Mox Opal
3 Retrofitter
1 Ornithopter
1 Tormod Crypt
3 Sphere of Resistance

16 other
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Metallic Rebuke
4 Timeless Dragon
2 Lorien Revealed

18 lands
4 Urza’s Saga
4 Seat of the synod
4 Tundra
1 Field of Ruin
1 Otawara
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Flooded Strand

[FTW]

The Sol Rings certainly make it easier to spam Retrofitter and Currency Converter activations more aggressively and come down under Standstill.

Sphere doesn't make sense here. It plays badly with Standstill (which slows down the game long enough for opponent to play around Sphere) and gets clunky with a bunch of cheap artifacts. Sol Rings can't pay for Sphere tax.

I think you can also balance it by trying to play a reasonable control deck instead of just spamming so much jank.

The problem with Thran Turbine is how to avoid making it a dead card, especially in multiples, especially in a control deck that plans to draw many cards. Especially when Standstill doesn't need Sol Ring to win with Saga & Retrofitter & Timeless Dragon. The Enigma Jewel at least has some built-in protection against redundancy: it can flip, it can pitch to FoW, it can activate outside the upkeep. Turbine can't do those things. You can't even sacrifice extra Turbines to Enigma (not an activated ability). Tapping it for Metalcraft is weak. So perhaps you want to be on just 1 Turbine + 3-4 Enigma Jewel.


//Activated Abilities for exactly 2: 10
3 Urza's Saga
2 Currency Converter
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Expedition Map
3 Timeless Dragon

//Other Activated Abilities with 2: 6
2 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Immovable Rod
3 Shark Typhoon

//Sol Rings: 4
1 Thran Turbine
3 The Enigma Jewel

//Reasonable control: 23
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Lorien Revealed

//Other Lands: 17
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Plateau


Abilities to spend 2 on: 21
Permanents with activated abilities for Enigma: 16 nonlands
Cycling cards: 10
T1 Artifacts under Standstill: 9 + 3 Saga

Blue cards for FoW: 22
Plains for Timeless: 5

Thran Turbine and Retrofitter Foundry are tutorable with Saga so you should be able to get them when you need them. 1 copy means you don't flood on them when you don't need them.

Sol Ring is basically taking the Brainstorm slot in an otherwise stock UWx Landstill list. Brainstorm is a bigger liability against Bowmasters, and you already have other draw engines, cycling, and card selection, so maybe it would work. Could go to 3rd Currency Converter too! Sol Ring is your turn 1 mana-advancing play instead of Ponder/Braimstorm. It should make it easier to get greedy with Saga. Could maybe go to 4 Saga too.

If you stay artifact-heavy, Urza Lord Artificer sure looks good. It turns extra artifacts into Mox Sapphire and gives a mana sink for Sol Ring mana!

[FTW]

There is a lot of variance you need to draw past if you're running do-nothings like Turbine. Even though cycling is consistency-positive, this is pretty reliant on A [Turbine] then B [cycling]. Imagine the problem: you don't have piece A, so you cycle your last piece B in hand -> you draw piece A off the cycle -> dead.

You need to do a ton of work to avoid the above sequence. I wouldn't even touch Turbine unless I was willing to absorb the variance of 4x Geier Reach Sanitarium, and yes, that's legendary. At least you can go turn 1 Geier, cast Turbine -> Turn 2 begin fixing hand with Geier off Turbine mana. I still don't think this is good enough for competitive play, but it's probably as close as you can get to mitigating such variance.

Did you post this before Currency Converter was printed?

Because that fills the Geier Reach role perfectly and is a much stronger card. Turbine/Enigma Jewel is an excuse to get greedier with Saga and Currency Converter, and then you get many things to do with 2 and built-in variance smoothing against flooding.

Enigma Jewel also lowers the variance compared to Turbine: more use-cases, pitches to Force, ultimate mode.

You could add maybe Search for Azcanta - card selection that dodges Bowmasters, fills the yard for Jewel, uses the 2 colorless, and filters redundant draws.

Honestly just going turn 1 Sol Ring turn 2 Standstill into a deck full of cycling (Timeless Dragon, Shark Typhoon, Lorien Revealed) and activated abilities (Saga->Currency Converter) seems quite good. Especially when you can pitch dead Sol Rings to Force or Currency Converter.

[FTW]

I tested this. It was pretty decent.


//Lands: 22
4 Flooded Strand
3 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
2 Otawara, Soaring City
3 Urza's Saga
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

//Spells: 16
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Lorien Revealed

//Enchantments: 8
4 Standstill
4 Shark Typhoon

//Artifacts: 8
3 The Enigma Jewel
3 Currency Converter
1 Expedition Map
1 Immovable Rod

//Creatures: 3
3 Timeless Dragon

//Planeswalkers: 3
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Comet, Stellar Pup

//Sideboard: 15
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Alpine Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Serenity
1 Powder Keg
1 Dress Down


Apparently Sol Ring is a good Magic card. Who knew.

Immovable Rod was very good with a Sol Ring effect in play (or late game with 7-8 lands) and bad otherwise, so I wouldn't go over 1 copy.

I tried 1 Thran Turbine but it was pretty bad so I cut it for Sevinne's (i.e. 4th Sol Ring/Converter). Then I turned Retrofitter into a 3rd Currency Converter, because Enigma Jewel is legendary and Converter is better if you can only accelerate +2 mana. Retrofitter looks better when you can play multiple Thran Turbines or combine Turbine with Jewel, allowing multiple activations per turn, but less good just making a 1/1 Servo here and there.

[Reeplcheep]

Sol ring into standstill is probably the right call. I was thinking of sphere as just additional copies of standstill.

Did you find that only 3 sol rings are enough? I was worried about 3 enablers is too few for 18 payoffs. You don’t really have a way to discard lands; is the occasional 2/2 from converter good enough? Or was it more the looting that you benefited from?

[FTW]

Did you find that only 3 sol rings are enough? I was worried about 3 enablers is too few for 18 payoffs. You don’t really have a way to discard lands; is the occasional 2/2 from converter good enough? Or was it more the looting that you benefited from?

Good question. Space was tight so I just ran 3. Maybe the 4th copy is good. Some games I never saw one. Other games I never wanted the 2nd copy unless the first is removed. Didn't test enough games to tell.

Converter combos with the 4 Shark Typhoon + 3 Timeless Dragon + 1 Lorien + 2 Otawara = 10 cards that can immediately go under it and turn into 2/2 or Treasure. Heliod recycles Shark Typhoon, so that can be a lot of 2/2s.

Aside from that, it's the looting. It does a lot of card selection, and can generate more 2/2s. It can also help color fix for the red splash or make PEnding X=4. In one game it helped me turn extra fetches (after 0 fetchables left) into Treasures to make a Shark bigger than Murktide.

Maybe it could be 2 Converter + 1 Retrofitter. I just find Converter is strong in Standstill. I usually couldn't afford to spare more than 2 mana per turn on activations, and I find Retrofitter only gets really strong if you either have Thopters or you can dump lots of mana to get multiple activations per turn. The 1/1 Servo seems underwhelming vs Bowmasters.

[Reeplcheep]

Moonbind Prototpe has a higher floor than immovable rod, maybe that could be an improvement.

With more converters could we run 2 Thran turbines?

I think we want 4 timeless dragon, since it is the only engine that immediately pays off with no additional investment.

Do we want Doomskar over supreme verdict?

I think I agree that converter works better in this deck.

[FTW]

Verdict being uncounterable is much better than banking mana on Doomskar. Verdict's uncounterable clause has saved me in many many games over different UWx control decks. When you need a board wipe, you need it to resolve.

For 4 Timeless I think you need 6-7 fetchable Plains, so it was just a matter of Plains count. I've never felt comfortable supporting 4 Timeless outside of monowhite. Even with 3 Timeless & 5 Plains, sometimes you run out of Plains and can only hardcast.

You could try out Moonsnare and Thran Turbines. Currency Converter's card selection smooths some variance.

[FTW]

I tested this out going greedier with Sol Rings (4 Jewel + 1 Turbine) and Saga (4 Saga & +1 Retrofitter).


//Lands: 22
4 Flooded Strand
3 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
1 Otawara, Soaring City
4 Urza's Saga
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

//Spells: 15
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Lorien Revealed

//Artifacts: 11
4 The Enigma Jewel
3 Currency Converter
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Expedition Map
1 Thran Turbine
1 Immovable Rod

//Enchantments: 7
4 Standstill
3 Shark Typhoon

//Creatures: 3
3 Timeless Dragon

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Teferi, Time Raveler


I found the deck clunkier. The mana and draws were less stable. I flooded on Saga & Sol Rings too often instead of drawing more reliable cards. I preferred the previous build.

Thran Turbine was dead or awkward in many situations where Jewel would have been better. The timing restriction is a big difference. I had both Jewel & Turbine in play very early one game (turn 2?), and the only times it really mattered were for making big Sharks. But I had to make Shark on upkeep twice (tapping out before draw step) instead of making Shark after opponent's attack step, so that was pretty bad. Otherwise Jewel was enough. The Turbine trigger went ignored many times. To make use of Turbine, I slammed Sagas early instead of developing lands, and then when I got Sagas Wasted I just had an unused Turbine and impaired mana development = very impaired early game development that lost or almost lost games.

Retrofitter was unimpressive in the few games I played. The 1/1 bodies were slow & unreliable chump blockers, and too slow if I needed to block flying (what the 2/2 rogues can't already do better). Maybe it would shine in other scenarios, but it never did much for me.

You could quad hammer on Sol Ring, Converter, Saga etc. That's one direction. It would be more consistent at doing the 1 thing more often, but it seems less good at playing Magic overall. You're really shoehorned into 1 game plan and if that plan is ineffective then you don't have much else to do. Whereas if you don't force the combos as hard, you can still abuse the interactions sometimes but also play a reasonable fair Magic game. It might come down to playstyle. I think the quad hammer is overkill and kills the decision trees and play patterns. The other build was already good enough at using Sol Ring, without being completely dependent on certain sequences of cards.

[Reeplcheep]

Ok thanks for doing some testing. You are probably right to keep it as a minimal package.