First legacy deck - Izzet Delver budget, need reviews

[VlaeKD]

Hello!
Let me introduce myself, i'm a TGC player from quite a time now, but having a new group of friends playing Magic i thought it would be the right time to try that game that scared me a bit for his difficulty at first sight.

They are playing legacy type with no restrictions at all, and even they don't have solid and competitives decks, i wanted to try to make one based on an already acknowledged archetype.

Here's my list!

Budget Izzet Delver

//Creatures//
1 Brazen Borrower
4x Murktide Regent
4x Dragon's Rage Channeler
4x Delver of Secrets
//Spells//
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Expressive Iteration
1 Misdirection
1 Dress Down
//Lands//
2 Izzet Boilerworks
8 Island
3 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls

Gitaxian Probe // I know that card isn't playable at all. But as i said my group of friends aren't banning cards so at that moment i might play it.

PS: Got like 200€ budget for the deck

[Weapon X]

What do you mean legacy with no restrictions? Like can you play dig through time and ancestral recall?

[VlaeKD]

Yeah, we technically can play whatever we want. But ancestral is way too expensive for me

[Fox]

If you want to play paper legacy with zero dual lands, there's only really a few ways to play a optimal/near-optimal deck.

Pathway 1 is ragequit legacy b/c you built Shadow and never stood a chance vs the Plow/Ending format.

Pathway 2 is build DnT and have around $1200 sinkholed into a deck you can't build out of. So....you better love playing it, and just it.

Pathway 3 is buy 4 Tarn, 4 Vista, and play 6 blue source ( so that's 4 Island, 2 Otawara or 3 island, 2 Otawara, 1 Steam Vents, or 4 Island, 1 Otawara, 1 Steam Vents), 1 Mountain, 3x Wasteland. Now you have the staples (FoW, Bstorm, Daze, Bolt, Red Blasts, etc) and can engage in useful play patterns that apply to Delver-style decks. Just know that if you build this as Ponder/vanilla Delver you will just be crappy Delver...and it won't stop being crappy until you have 4x Volc. A better idea is to immediately reach an end-stage optimal legacy deck by playing Dreadstill; this endpoint is achieved at 1x Volc, then you're ready to farm Delver.

[Weapon X]

I may lean into foil and gush as well as chain lightning then as “budget options”. No idea what the euro price point is of that, but I think it can inform the directions you may want to go. Ideally you’re going to be heavy blue with access to red so the “basic fetches” are probably going to be better then fake duals for you. That said I’m pretty certain you’d have to bite the bullet on force of wills which will crush your budget

[VlaeKD]

Hi, thanks for all your answers.

First of all, i want to specify that none of my friends got cards such as Volc, FoW, Wasteland or cards like that.
I know i might be crushed by playing blurry decks in format like Legacy if i decided to play people with optimized decks.

To be honest, they are more playing commanders decks that they transform into 60cards decks, and adding some features in it (Sensei divining top for exemple)

We are in a case where they don't have what it needs to play pure Legacy format, but they are playing everything as long as it's a Magic card.

I decided to check Legacy decks as it's the closest format to total freedom, but i don't know if an unoptimized legacy deck is 'better' than an optimized pioneer or standard deck tbf

Don't hesitate to tell me what you would do.

[FTW]

In a no-ban budget Legacy format, the low-hanging fruit starts with
4 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mind Twist
and other big mana black haymakers.

With access to that much mana, you're just going to get higher-power cards. You can add to it with whatever fun creatures and planeswalkers you want, playing the game with faster mana than normal. Meanwhile opponent's deck won't have Force of Will or Wasteland or Karakas to ruin your fun. I am 100% playing ramp or combo in a no FoW format.

If you prefer to start with something that looks like a traditional Legacy deck, turn 1 combo is the most powerful thing you can play in budget Legacy circles. Belcher can be built cheaply other than LED. You can play Stomping Ground instead of Taiga with negligible difference to win%. Instead of the usual LED (Lion's Eye Diamond), you could play Pyretic Ritual, Jeska's Will or with Sol Ring if they're allowed. It's a bit slower without LED but the deck still wins fast.

Budget Belcher
//Initial Mana: 21
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Stomping Ground

//Other Mana: 20
4 Sol Ring
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

//Free Spells: 8
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose

//Business Spells: 11
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens

//Sideboard: 15
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Irencrag Feat
1 Reverent Silence
1 Cave-In
1 Chain Lightning
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hull Breach
1 By Force
1 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm


This has a high turn 1-2 win % in a meta with no Force of Will or City of Traitors (maybe no Force of Vigor either).

Chrome Mox is the only expensive card. If that's still out of budget, you could try 4 Chancellor of the Tangle OR 2 Jeska's Will + 2 Street Wraith.



Edit2: If you think combo would be unfun for your friends and prefer the fair Izzet Delver archetype, I would make some changes to your OP list. Delve cards and Brainstorm are harder to play without fetchlands. Daze is not playable without enough ways to get "Islands" on turn 1 (blue fetchland + Steam Vents + basic Island). Treasure Cruise is very strong without a banlist, although it conflicts with Murktide Regent.

Budget UR Delver - Treasure Cruise Era

//Creatures: 14
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
2 Murktide Regent

//Spells: 30
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Daze
2 Misdirection

//Lands: 16
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Arid Mesa
3 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Fiery Islet

//Rough Sideboard:
4 Mental Misstep
3 Foil
2 Price of Progress


The idea behind this is that you won't be able to disrupt as much without Force and Wasteland, but opponents won't either, so you want to play more aggressive and race. That tilts towards 16 lands and playing more 1 drops and Chain Lightning, with Probe + Treasure Cruise to refill hands. Meanwhile opponents won't have turn 1 Chalice of the Void to punish such a low curve. Swiftspear is quite strong in this set up where you want to cast cheap spells quickly. You might even get away with greed like 2 Fireblast as a finisher, instead of Misdirection.

The SB will depend a lot on what your opponents play. Cards like Surgical Extraction, Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Red Elemental Blast, Meltdown, Pyrokinesis, Smash to Smithereens, Echoing Truth, Searing Blaze, Spell Pierce may also be good depending on what opponents are playing.

If even the fetchlands are out of budget, then I would not play Izzet Delver at all. Multiple cards get much worse (Brainstorm, Daze, Treasure Cruise, Murktide Regent... even Ponder and Delver of Secrets).

[VlaeKD]

I took note and i'll check that.
You were right tho, i don't think combo decks will be fun as it's my first deck and as cards are still quite expensive i'll stay with him for a while, and i know they'll surely tell me to put aside a combo deck for our multiplayers game.

Thanks 10x for your time and your kindness.

If i can add something, is that if you know a deck, even not legacy, who can add some banned cards and is quite solid and fun, i'll be happy to look at that archetype.

I'm not only into Izzet Delver, it was juste the one i found attractive, but i think i underestimated importance of dual lands and i would have been disappointed.

[Weapon X]

Honestly yeah I’d probably rock a yawgmoths bargain deck as well. Sol ring makes for a better grim monolith etc.

[VlaeKD]

Honestly yeah I’d probably rock a yawgmoths bargain deck as well. Sol ring makes for a better grim monolith etc.

I got you, and from what i checked i'm pretty 100% sure the deck will just destroy them as they don't have counter cards as FTW said before..

It's so hard to find a solid deck, but as we're talking about people who don't check internet or any list to build their deck, i assume they'll be frustrated by that kind of ramping deck they couldn't stop.

I think i'll try to find a good one, maybe from other format, being fun and solid and add some broken cards to make him less dependent of mulligan.

Thanks again for your help :)

[FTW]

So what kind of deck style are you looking to play then?

You don't want fast broken combos, right? Do you want to play a fast aggro deck? A disruptive deck? A slow control deck? You have many options.

If land-typed dual lands (Volcanic Island, Steam Vents) and fetchlands (Scalding Tarn, Prismatic Vista) are out of your budget, then I think you should stick to a 1 color deck. You'll save a lot of money sticking to 1 color. You will gain a lot of power by adding 4 Sol Ring to a 1-color deck, letting you accelerate to the big plays sooner. Sol Ring is so cheap that it's a great choice for your format.

[Purple Blood]

This sounds like a casual play group looking to have fun.

I would strongly recommend against creating a "banned" deck that plays full sets of cards that are not fully legal in any 60 card format. 99% chance that just ends up with you playing a bunch of boring games that you can't lose and pissing people off and/or not having fun. Then again, if a lot of people are already doing this (i.e. 4 Sol Rings) go right ahead.

There's also no rush. You have a 200 limit on costs but no one said you need to spend it all at once. If Delver is enticing to you, I would recommend you buy the 90% of the deck that averages out to about a dollar per card and then play with it and see how you like it. Depending on what you already have on hand, you could end up spending only like 10 bucks and have a playable deck.

Will you lose some games because you cast your DRC with a mountain and don't have Daze backup? Sure. Can you still have a ton of fun? Definitely.

There's a lot of Legacy decks that are surprisingly cheap if you don't mind being underpowered (i.e. 90-95% of the cost is tied into 5-10% of the cards). I would take a look here and browse through the lists:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

[FTW]

There's also no rush. You have a 200 limit on costs but no one said you need to spend it all at once. If Delver is enticing to you, I would recommend you buy the 90% of the deck that averages out to about a dollar per card and then play with it and see how you like it. Depending on what you already have on hand, you could end up spending only like 10 bucks and have a playable deck.

Will you lose some games because you cast your DRC with a mountain and don't have Daze backup? Sure. Can you still have a ton of fun? Definitely.

It's not just that. Many card choices in the deck don't make sense in the budget version.

Brainstorm is bad without fetchlands. Ponder gets worse too. Preordain could be better.

Daze is bad without the usual 14 "island" (8 blue fetch + 6 blue dual/Island OR mono-Island), since Daze is best early and gets worse as the game goes longer (especially without Wasteland). He'll have a hard time making a budget manabase with both stable mana and T1 Island. Either he'll have problems getting red mana, or he'll have a shortage of Islands, or he'll have too many tapped lands (tempo loss negates effect of Daze).

Delve cards like Murktide Regent/Treasure Cruise are harder to support without fetches

Dragon's Rage Channeler has a harder time reaching Delirium without lands putting themselves in the yard (fetches + Wasteland). It's still good, but you have to work that much harder to get enough card types in. Especially with Murktide eating your graveyard.

Without Force of Will+Force of Negation to answer problems, you probably want Spell Pierce and to tap out less often (tapping out for sorcery Expressive Iteration is riskier). You may need a different disruptive strategy altogether. For example, a simple 2/4 reach spider will be a big headache and the deck won't have Wasteland/Daze/Force to punish midrange plays.

Pyroblast only makes sense in the Tier 1 Legacy meta dominated by Force+Brainstorm decks. It's not maindeckable in casual, probably not even worth SB spots.

It looks like you can just cut the expensive cards and play the same shell, but the deck runs into problems because of the mechanics enabled by those expensive cards. The mechanics and strategy change. When the mechanics and strategy underperform, the deck won't be as fun either.

It would be better to start with a Pauper deck and then power it up. At least then you know the core mechanics of the deck work.

Edit: Here's a Pauper Tier 1 UR deck https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/pauper-izzet-faeries#paper

//Lands: 20
11 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Volatile Fjord
3 Ash Barrens

//Creatures: 18
4 Faerie Seer
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Augur of Bolas
1 Moon-Circuit Hacker
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Crimson Fleet Commodore

//Spells: 22
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
3 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
4 Counterspell
1 Exclude
1 Fire // Ice


Notice how they have a plan better built around the available budget mechanics. Preordain instead of Ponder, and fewer copies of Brainstorm to reduce risk of Brainstorm locks. There's Skred to answer bigger midrange creatures. Counterspell, Spellstutter and Spell Pierce to replace Force and Daze.
You could start with that and then make some upgrades. Crimson Fleet Commodore, Exclude, and Fire//Ice are the easiest cuts.

Edit: 2 Brazen Borrower seems good. It answers cards UR struggles to answer, it's a flash flyer for Ninjas, it's a Faerie for Spellstutter, and it does well being returned to hand.

[Purple Blood]

That's definitely true. I was going to recommend he make a build with Preordains and Counter Spell / Spell Pierce / Spell Snare in place of Brainstorm and FOW. I'd also suggest looking at cards like Sprite Dragon, Dreadhorde Arcanist, Ethereal Forager, and Stormwing Entity. Daze is more debatable because you can still go T1 Island -> Delver -> Go. Again, he's playing in a casual playgroup not in a Legacy tournament.

There's no debate that you lose a ton of synergies without the expensive cards but its not like the deck straight doesn't function. It just ends up being slower. Albeit, in a tempo strategy that is a bigger problem since you will end up losing to fair-midrange who will go over the top of you. Ultimately, UR tempo is viable in almost every format.

Looking at Pauper Faeries for inspiration is a great idea. I'd also recommend checking out Spirits from Pioneer and Explorer for another tempo strategy:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/explorer-mono-blue-spirits#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/pioneer-mono-blue-spirits#paper

[FTW]

It just ends up being slower. Albeit, in a tempo strategy that is a bigger problem since you will end up losing to fair-midrange who will go over the top of you.

This is the #1 problem.

UR's only plan is to be the most efficient and race. That's because UR lacks lategame tools. UW and UB scale better into the lategame, but UR's Lightning Bolt and Daze look worse and worse beyond the early turns as opponent develops mana and goes over the top. In a casual meta (60 card commander), you expect a lot of fair midrange. Even more if Sol Ring is legal. If UR loses tempo to bad mana and its creatures take longer to enable, opponent will just go over the top with random fair stuff.

That's a fundamental weakness of UR. It needs to race. When you compromise the efficiency, it loses its best strategic advantage. Even moreso when you also remove its tools to slow down big decks (no FoW, no Wasteland, weakened Daze). If it takes 1 turn longer to turn on Murktide and DRC without fetchlands, that extra turn could be the difference for midrange to stabilize.

I joke about Giant Spider, but even that is a problem when you lose Wasteland + Force + Daze, are slow enough to let them play it, and only have Bolt as removal. You need an alternate strategy to adapt to opponent going over the top.

Pauper UR does that with Counterspell and Skred. Pauper UR accepts that it can't be as efficient as Full Price Legacy UR, so it adapts with answers that scale better as the game goes on. I think that's what OP will have to do. OP won't be able to rely on Full Price UR's power to exploit tempo. But when you're on Counterspell and Spell Pierce, you can't tap out as greedily as FoW decks can, you need to leave untapped blue mana. That means sorcery speed tap-out card draw like Expressive Iteration gets awkward and you prefer instant speed card draw or draw tacked on creatures. All of that leads to building in a different direction than Full Price Legacy UR.

Or OP could play different colors. UW tools scale better as opponent plays bigger threats: Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, Banishing Light, Day of Judgment. So UW doesn't need to worry about racing.




Daze is more debatable because you can still go T1 Island -> Delver -> Go. Again, he's playing in a casual playgroup not in a Legacy tournament.

In monoblue that's fine. The Spirit decks are monoblue, easier to do with budget mana. They could run Daze.

In UR, you need all three:
a) enough Islands for T1 Island (14 usually, 12 min)
b) enough R sources to play the red cards. More if you want T1 red creature or T2 UR creature
c) not too many tapped lands, otherwise you lose the tempo gained by opponent playing around Daze

A and B are in direct conflict. Dual lands help bridge the gap, but if you play budget duals then they either don't count as "Island" (fails A) or they enter tapped (fails C).

Add to that Daze is bad lategame, especially without Wasteland mana denial. In OP's casual playgroup everyone will learn to play around Daze. Unless OP is also fast, opponent can play around Daze without penalty and leave OP with dead cards in hand. The loss of tempo hurts Daze. Even in casual, it's not fun when a deck can't do its thing or loses to internal inconsistency.

What would your budget manabase with Daze look like? Would that mana also be able to cast T1 DRC?

[snugar_i]

... for our multiplayers game.


So, you will be playing both 1v1 and multiplayer, or multiplayer only? Because Delver (and other tempo decks) kind of sucks in multiplayer.
In general, the "real" Legacy decks are not meant to be fun to play against. They are supposed to be mean to the opponent, ideally not letting him play his cards at all :-)
You might be better off starting with a Modern deck and then removing some expensive cards and maybe adding in a few older cards that you like - Modern decks tend to be a little more "fair".

[VlaeKD]

WoW, first of all thanks again, i didn't expect such number of answers.
Seems like you need a bit of context to be able to help me better so here we are :

- I'm a competitive player but they are my friends and i don't want to break them (and i checked mono black ramp with dark ritual etc.. and i'm sure that if i play a turn 2 big threat they'll just cry and ask me to change)

-As a Hearthstone 'competitive' player (had the chance to do 2x IEM Katowice qualifier) i can say i was more into control/combo deck (good draw, spells and few monsters) but winning with a card saying that i win (Second sun) wasn't funny for them so i did not go into Lotus combo.
Control, spells were why i was going into Izzet Delver in a first place

- As they aren't banning cards i think i would like to add broken cards to minimize rng (like dig, or the card that allow you to check first deck card of your opponent then draw for a blue mana or 2 life)

- We're playing lot of things (1v1, Battleroyal, or 2v2)

As i'm not only waiting for your answers i did some researches and i found white cards quite interesting too (Balance, the card that allows you to exile a creature for 1 white mana etc...)

Although, i already bought Otawara (because of orignal idea of Lotus Combo, but maybe will i sell it?) , Brainstorm, Daze and Ponder because i liked blue control but i'm struggling finding 'winning path' by just going blue.

EDIT : Read everything. I'll take a loot at Pauper UR! I agree with you that a lot of decks are turning around mid-range aggro and a too slow deck will be a problem.
The thing is that even with quite lot of researches, i don't know much about cards synergies and i don't have enough knowledge to : take a legacy deck that i convert into a cheaper version, or take a modern/pioneer deck that i upgrade with banned cards.

Let me know if you got a deck idea, even not fully powered who could fill theses requirements, all your messages were useful as never :)

Edit 2 : Spirits deck looking good too, maybe will it be possible to upgrade it with some banned cards? (Sol ring/Brainstorm?) Or would it be just a synergy break adding them?

Edit 3 : Maybe an Azorius spirit deck with some juicy blue cards and white cards from unbanned?

[Purple Blood]

Sol Ring isn't that amazing in Spirits since most of the cards have heavy color requirements but T2 Collected Company is juicy if you play UG or Bant. If you want a Sol Ring deck look at these for inspiration:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-blood-moon-aggro#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-8-cast#paper
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/soldiers-decklist-by-muramoto-youtarou-1384466
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/green-post-decklist-by-angers-1401015

You can make pretty nice budget versions of any of these.

[Weapon X]

Could always build enchantress. It will be budget friendly and give you options on how crazy you want to go

[VlaeKD]

I'll not be able to change correctly a 1000$+ into a 200$ good copy with my actual knowledge :(


If you were me, what archetype would you play ? Even if there is not banned cards in it? I don't wanna stay with an idea who just canot work without expensive cards and being delusional.

Just keeping a correct, fun and versatile deck with 200% budget and no ban :)

[Weapon X]

I think it was mentioned before but what is your goal? If you’re going to stick with legacy and eventually try to be competitive then Ux is probably the best place to start since it will have you getting staples. If it’s for the funzies I may just do the classic necropotence deck. Aggro black was always fun to play. And if you really want to play budget fun I always enjoyed “balancing tings”

[z0anthr0pe]

If you’re not stuck on delver and want a more mainstream deck, have a look at Eldrazi aggro or cloudpost style decks. They product speedy mana which power out gnarly aggressive critters. Here’s a few links:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-eldrazi-aggro#paper

The cloudpost idea uses a similar list but has glimmervoid and cloudpost as the mana accelerators. I guess you could even use urza lands. Anyway, good luck with it and have fun.

[FTW]

If you were me, what archetype would you play ? Even if there is not banned cards in it? I don't wanna stay with an idea who just canot work without expensive cards and being delusional.

Just keeping a correct, fun and versatile deck with 200% budget and no ban :)

In your shoes, I'd start with UW control.

You've said:

no broken combos (unfun for friends)
don't want to accelerate a big threat on turn 2 or end the game too quickly (unfun for friends)
you enjoy lots of spells and few monsters
for casual play group of friends (not people playing $1000 Competitive Legacy decks)
could be 1v1 or multiplayer


Then I think Blue-White control is flexible enough to adapt and compete in both environments. It also allows more long interactive games, which should be more fun for a casual group.

There are a lot of ways to build it. Instead of Spirits, I would build around spells.

UltraBudget UW Control - Rough Shell

//Mana: 24
8 Island
4 Plains
2 Prairie Stream
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Ash Barrens
4 Sol Ring

//Spells: 24
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterspell
4 Accumulated Knowledge
2 Council's Judgment
4 Day of Judgment
2 Dig Through Time

//Threats: 5
3 Timeless Dragon
2 Shark Typhoon

=53 cards

That should give you stable mana, card draw, and a good mix of answers. Without spending much $$. Most are staples. Some scale well to multiplayer too.

There's still room for 7 more cards. For those it depends on what you want to do with the deck. Personally I would use those slots on more counters, more card draw, and planeswalkers. Here's a list of some cards to consider. Some take advantage of Sol Ring mana, while others work without it. Some are budget, some cost more.
Rune Snag
Exclude
Force of Negation
Cryptic Command
Preordain
Search for Azcanta
Snapcaster Mage
Augur of Bolas
Malevolent Hermit
Court of Grace
Fact or Fiction
Sphinx's Revelation
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Teferi, Time Raveler
The Wandering Emperor
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Back to Basics
Humility
Aura of Silence
March of Otherworldly Light

Some mix of those cards could fill in the rest.

You could also upgrade
Day of Judgment -> Supreme Verdict (slightly less good with Sol Ring, but better against blue counters)
Prairie Stream -> Hallowed Fountain (probably not worth the money for you)
Accumulated Knowledge -> some other draw engine (Accumulated Knowledge is not amazing, but it's low-budget and instant speed and can pull you ahead in cards)

Does that look like a play style you would enjoy? Or would you prefer something more based around creatures like the Spirit or Faerie decks?

[snugar_i]

UW Control is exactly what I was going to suggest as well.
In addition to all the cards @FTW already listed, you could also run some number of

Skycloud Expanse
Celestial Colonnade

Wing Shards
Farm // Market

Mission Briefing
Scour All Possibilities

Iymrith, Desert Doom
Dragonlord Ojutai
Baneslayer Angel
Luminarch Aspirant
Dovin Baan


Basically you want some cards that kill the opponent's creatures one-for-one (Swords to Plowshares), some that kill all creatures (including you own! - Day of Judgment), some that let you find cards that you need at the moment (Preordain), some that make you draw more than one card to have more resources than the opponent (Frantic Inventory, Sphinx's Revelation), and some things to kill your opponent with, usually creatures (Baneslayer Angel) or planeswalkers (Gideon, Ally of Zendikar). Some of the cards meet more than one of these criteria (e.g. Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Dragonlord Ojutai both draws cards and is a kill condition).

It is also fairly important that your lands do not enter the battlefield tapped - there's nothing worse that needing the fourth mana for Day of Judgment and drawing Azorius Chancery.

EDIT: Two more - Wall of Omens is nice to hold off smaller creatures and buy you time, and you don't have to feel bad for sweeping it away with Day of Judgment. Plumeveil can often kill something out of nowhere and then also slows down your opponent/makes them deploy too many creatures into your sweeper.

[FTW]

Agree on Celestial Colonnade. I didn't realize how much cheaper those have become. When UW was big in Modern, they were over $20 a piece. Now they are budget-friendly. 2-3 copies seems fine. It's a dual land that doubles as a win condition that survives Day of Judgment.

In addition to what snugar_i said about strategy, if you are playing Counterspell then you prioritize effects that can be played at instant speed. That way you can always leave up blue mana during opponent's turn (in case you need to counter or to bluff you have it) but still do stuff if you don't counter anything. "Instant speed" effects can be Instant cards, but also anything with Flash, Cycling, or activated abilities. You can always wait to do those until the end of opponent's turn, to give you the most information and strategic advantage. With cards like Shark Typhoon and Sphinx's Revelation, you can leave all your mana untapped in case you need to cast counters, but at end of opponent's turn you can also dump all your mana into X for a big effect.
Edit: Teferi, Hero of Dominaria is cool because you can tap out for a planeswalker, but then use the +1 to untap 2 lands for Counterspell! And it draws you extra cards quickly.

[VlaeKD]

Didn't go deep into your lists yet but as you resumed totally my mindset, i'll follow both of you and try that one as my first deck.

I saw you put some classic Island.
As i mentionned i got 2x Otawata city-land home, is that a choice to consider for long game or will it be just a synergy loss with Asg Barrens?

BIG EDIT: So taking your 53cards and adding : 3x Ojutai Dragonlord, 2x Celestial colonade (or replacing islands by it?) , 2x Phoenix Revelation and 2/3x Wall of Omens if vs aggro decks?

Or would you do something different ?

Excited to look at that deeply :)

[VlaeKD]

I allow myself to post under my own post to share with you the list i made.
Cards on 'bench' are cards that i already get.

Feel free to share your reviews, hope i followed well your instructions!

[deck="UW Control"]



//Main
4 Ash Barrens
4 Brainstorm
2 Council's Judgment
4 Counterspell
4 Day of Judgment
2 Dig Through Time
3 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Glacial Fortress
8 Island
4 Plains
2 Ponder
2 Prairie Stream
2 Preordain
2 Shark Typhoon
4 Sol Ring
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Timeless Dragon

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 4 Daze
SB: 2 Gitaxian Probe
SB: 2 Otawara, Soaring City
SB: 2 Ponder
SB: 2 Skycloud Expanse
SB: 2 Wall of Omens

[FTW]

Didn't go deep into your lists yet but as you resumed totally my mindset, i'll follow both of you and try that one as my first deck.

I saw you put some classic Island.
As i mentionned i got 2x Otawata city-land home, is that a choice to consider for long game or will it be just a synergy loss with Asg Barrens?

BIG EDIT: So taking your 53cards and adding : 3x Ojutai Dragonlord, 2x Celestial colonade (or replacing islands by it?) , 2x Phoenix Revelation and 2/3x Wall of Omens if vs aggro decks?

Or would you do something different ?

Excited to look at that deeply :)

Classic Island is a very strong card. It enters the battlefield untapped, costs 0 life, and doesn't lose to things like Blood Moon or Back to Basics. You could even play your own Back to Basics if opponents have many nonbasics in their decks.

You could replace 2 Glacial Fortress with 2 Celestial Colonnade. You don't want too many lands that enter tapped., but Colonnade is a good alternate win condition. Celestial Colonnade is funny - it can attack through Back to Basics!! (vigilance)

You could replace 1 Island with 1 Otawara. I don't know about the 2nd copy. They are Legendary and it costs many mana to use.

Cards like Daze and Gitaxian Probe are not good in control. They are better in fast tempo decks like UR Delver.

Dragonlord Ojutai is fun, but 3 copies is a lot for an expensive legendary creature. 1-2 copies should be fine. It's easier to play multiples of Timeless Dragon and Shark Typhoon because they can cycle as a back-up plan (when you don't have enough mana or don't want a creature).

I recommend making room for 1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. He does not look like a big monster, but he takes over the game very quickly.

[VlaeKD]

Classic Island is a very strong card. It enters the battlefield untapped, costs 0 life, and doesn't lose to things like Blood Moon or Back to Basics. You could even play your own Back to Basics if opponents have many nonbasics in their decks.

You could replace 2 Glacial Fortress with 2 Celestial Colonnade. You don't want too many lands that enter tapped., but Colonnade is a good alternate win condition. Celestial Colonnade is funny - it can attack through Back to Basics!! (vigilance)

You could replace 1 Island with 1 Otawara. I don't know about the 2nd copy. They are Legendary and it costs many mana to use.

Cards like Daze and Gitaxian Probe are not good in control. They are better in fast tempo decks like UR Delver.

Dragonlord Ojutai is fun, but 3 copies is a lot for an expensive legendary creature. 1-2 copies should be fine. It's easier to play multiples of Timeless Dragon and Shark Typhoon because they can cycle as a back-up plan (when you don't have enough mana or don't want a creature).

I recommend making room for 1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. He does not look like a big monster, but he takes over the game very quickly.



So replace Glacial Forteress with Celestial Colonnade, got it.
Adding some basic lands to keep high % of lands so?

Removing Probes with what in your opinion?
Removing a Ojutai for what too?
I'll take a look at the Planewalker but never saw one during one of our game..

I don't know if i got enough land, enough draw or enough control spell kek

[Purple Blood]

I would remove Prairie Stream for Colonnade instead of Fortress. Also remove Ash Barrens for Hengegate Pathway and drop Brainstorm for more Ponders and Preordains since you don't have enough shuffling to make Brainstorm good.

I would cut Sphinx's Revelation for Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Fact or Fiction, or Memory Deluge. My personal preference is for Fact or Fiction since its just a really fun card to play with.

Instead of Dragonlord Ojutai if you want a big creature look at Dream Trawler. Either way only play 1-2.

If your opponents play a lot of draw spells I would look at Narset, Parter of Veils.

If your opponents play a lot of instants and counters I would look at Teferi, Time Raveler.

You could also try to make some room for Spell Snare and Spell Pierce.

Three Timeless Dragon is kind of a lot. I would go down to 1-2.

This would be my list (can't comment on sideboard because I don't know what you're playing against):

2 Fact or Fiction
2 Dig Through Time
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
4 Day of Judgment
2 Prismatic Ending

4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

1 Dream Trawler
2 Shark Typhoon
1 Timeless Dragon
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Teferi, Time Raveler

4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hengegate Pathway
2 Celestial Collonade
1 Hall of Storm Giants
5 Island
4 Plains
4 Sol Ring

[FTW]

I would remove Prairie Stream for Colonnade instead of Fortress.

Prairie Stream is to have an Island-Plains searchable by Timeless Dragon so Dragon can fix blue mana. At least 1 copy seems good. The other budget Island-Plains enter tapped. Untapped Prairie Stream seemed better.


Three Timeless Dragon is kind of a lot. I would go down to 1-2.

3 Dragon makes more sense with Prairie Stream. Then Dragon can fix for either color and there are 6 targets. 3 is too many for 4 Plains.

There's also a strong synergy with Sol Ring.
T1 land -> Sol Ring -> cycle Dragon for 2nd land
T2 land Eternalize 4/4 Dragon!!

Lategame it's a good mana sink for Sol Ring, casting both the 5/5 and 4/4 without tapping out many lands. It's a way to sneak in Sol Ring payoffs without playing cards that are bad without Sol Ring.
Sol Ring is what pushed me to the 3rd copy. Then the Island-Plains adds value so Dragon doesn't just flood on white mana.



Also remove Ash Barrens for Hengegate Pathway and drop Brainstorm for more Ponders and Preordains since you don't have enough shuffling to make Brainstorm good.

Ash Barrens has modes beyond fixing colors though: Delve fuel, shuffle for Brainstorm, helps Prairie Stream/Glacial Fortress enter untapped, and avoids nonbasic hate. Ash Barrens + Timeless Dragon = 7 non-spell shuffles for Brainstorm. I thought that might be enough to risk Brainstorm, but it was the slot I was least sure of without testing. Preordain is safer. If you cut Ash Barrens, definitely replace Brainstorm with Preordains then Ponder.

Basically the cards you singled out - Timeless Dragon, Prairie Stream, Ash Barrens, Brainstorm - have synergy and work together. The way I had it set up should work. If you cut some, the others get worse too.

You could end up with a completely different manabase and cantrip shell that still works too. The big advantage of the one I posted is that you can run Back to Basics while ignoring enemy nonbasic hate (and vigilant Colonnade can attack through your own B2B lol). That may or may not matter in their meta. If nonbasic hate is not played in their meta and Brainstorm is cut, then any other combination of duals is fine too.


I would cut Sphinx's Revelation for Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time, Fact or Fiction, or Memory Deluge. My personal preference is for Fact or Fiction since its just a really fun card to play with.

Dig is good, maybe just 2 copies without fetchlands. After that I prefer Fact or Fiction too.



You could also try to make some room for Spell Snare and Spell Pierce.

Spell Pierce is weak in control. An Offer You Can't Refuse might be better. Or maybe Dovin's Veto? The 2-mana counters are easier to support if you play instant speed card draw instead of sorcery speed Ponders.

Spell Snare is only good in some metas that revolve around important 2 mana cards (Goyf + CB + Survival meta). In a casual group, it's bad too often. I'd try Mental Misstep before Spell Snare, but even Misstep is probably Sideboard material.

I wouldn't play Prismatic Ending for the same reason. You don't know their curves. If it's midrangey stuff and multiplayer decks, Prismatic for 2 won't answer enough. March of Otherworldly Light seems more flexible.

[FTW]

So replace Glacial Forteress with Celestial Colonnade, got it.
Adding some basic lands to keep high % of lands so?

Removing Probes with what in your opinion?
Removing a Ojutai for what too?
I'll take a look at the Planewalker but never saw one during one of our game..

I don't know if i got enough land, enough draw or enough control spell kek

20 lands should be enough if you also have 4 Sol Ring, Timeless Dragons, and blue draw spells like Brainstorm/Preordain. Those cards help you find the right lands on time.

I prefer a lot of basic lands so that opponents can't attack your mana as easily. There are a lot of cards that attack nonbasic lands. Blood Moon, Ruination, Back to Basics, Wasteland, Field of Ruin, Tectonic Edge, Magus of the Moon. I don't know what your friends like to play. Maybe they don't play cards like that. Playing basics vs nonbasics really depends on what your friends play.

Remove Probes and extra Ojutai for more draw (Preordain) and control spell (Cryptic Command or Dovin's Veto or March of Otherworldly Light).

[snugar_i]

Hengegate Pathway
That one is unfortunately not that cheap anymore (and even more expensive in Europe, not sure where OP lives).

Anyway, the exact composition of the deck does not matter that much. Just throw something together, play some games and see what you like and what you don't. Then we can help you tweak the deck based on that.

And one last note on playstyle: Control decks must be patient. Do not waste your kill spells and counterspells on the first things your opponent throws at you, because they might follow up with scarier stuff which you won't have any answers left for. Use your life total as a resource, losing some life at the beginning of the game is fine (just don't lose too much :-) ) It's usually better to (for example) wait for the opponent to play out 3 creatures, then killing them all with a Day of Judgment than Swords to Plowsharesing the first 2, then having to use Day of Judgment on the third one - in the first example, you still killed all 3 creatures, but you have two Swords left for their next plays.

[FTW]

And one last note on playstyle: Control decks must be patient. Do not waste your kill spells and counterspells on the first things your opponent throws at you, because they might follow up with scarier stuff which you won't have any answers left for. Use your life total as a resource, losing some life at the beginning of the game is fine (just don't lose too much :-) ) It's usually better to (for example) wait for the opponent to play out 3 creatures, then killing them all with a Day of Judgment than Swords to Plowsharesing the first 2, then having to use Day of Judgment on the third one - in the first example, you still killed all 3 creatures, but you have two Swords left for their next plays.

This is a good strategy point.

Cards like Wall of Omens, Plumeveil, Augur of Bolas, Edifice of Authority can force the opponent to commit multiple creatures to the battlefield so you can clean up more with Day of Judgment!

[Purple Blood]

@FTW I missed that Prairie Stream had basic land types so the way you set it up also makes sense. I suggested Spell Pierce because sometimes you need to sneak in double spells but Dovin's Veto may be better. I wouldn't play An Offer You Can't Refuse in a casual setting people tend to be able to use that mana a lot better than in Legacy where everything is super efficient. I like Spell Snare because people tend to play two drops and its the only way to counter those on the draw without pitch-counters. Ultimately, it obviously depends on what OP is playing against.

@snugar_i I didn't make the list to suggest he play the exact list just giving it for comparison's sake. The most fun part of casual magic (at least for me) is the brewing! Sitting at home brewing jank/semi-jank with my friends is peak Magic IMO.

One last suggestion is considering cards like Mazemind Tome because its a good sink for Sol Ring and it can basically take over the game in longer matchups.

[VlaeKD]

Hi guys.
Coming back for some reviews.

First of all, thanks to all of you.

I had fun with the deck, and did a 15w - 3l over the week end.
Even if at the end, they went for some counters to the deck.

I will surely ask you for some ideas again, with the exact same thought (100$) but with others colors/types of decks.

Thanks again for your help and kindness!!

[snugar_i]

Glad it worked out well!
Were your opponents OK with the Sol Rings? It's a ridiculously busted card, but not very splashy, so maybe they didn't hate it as much as they should :-)
What type of deck would you like next time?

Something aggressive? (Dump your hand of small creatures and beat your opponent to death before they can defend)
Combo (it doesn't have to be a 1-turn kill, there are also "combos" like Reanimator, SneakShow and others)?
Midrange? (Lots of 2-for-1's basically - Hymn to Tourach, Flametongue Kavu etc.)
Prison? (Nobody gets to play Magic, but your deck is better prepared for that - cards like Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Smokestack etc.)

[VlaeKD]

Glad it worked out well!
Were your opponents OK with the Sol Rings? It's a ridiculously busted card, but not very splashy, so maybe they didn't hate it as much as they should :-)
What type of deck would you like next time?

Something aggressive? (Dump your hand of small creatures and beat your opponent to death before they can defend)
Combo (it doesn't have to be a 1-turn kill, there are also "combos" like Reanimator, SneakShow and others)?
Midrange? (Lots of 2-for-1's basically - Hymn to Tourach, Flametongue Kavu etc.)
Prison? (Nobody gets to play Magic, but your deck is better prepared for that - cards like Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Smokestack etc.)



Well, it appears that they knew the card, and that they got it in some of their decks, so it was smooth!
They flamed " Day of judgement and Counterspell most of all.


I told them i'll try to do some cool features with creatures and combos.
Thought about a duocolor with blue/white to keep playing some strong cards and avoid paying another deck from scratch.
But i'm open for ideas under 100$ :)

[FTW]

I had fun with the deck, and did a 15w - 3l over the week end.
Even if at the end, they went for some counters to the deck.

Great result! Glad you had fun and that the deck worked well for you.

In casual 15w - 3l is even better than 18w. If you just win every game they'll stop playing with you or ban your cards. If they can win some, it shows the deck is not too unfair. I think it's also more fun to lose to control than fast combo, because at least they get to play a long interactive game of Magic.

What other deck styles are you looking for? Monoblack Reanimator can be built on a budget. With Sol Ring you get the back-up plan of casting the big creature.

If you want to stay in Blue White, you could try a creature deck like Spirits. That would give some variety from the controlling spells like Day of Judgment and Counterspell.

[FTW]

Budget UW Spirits deck. Using some of the same cards.


//Spells: 12
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
//you have these already, right?

//Spirit Creatures: 27
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Ascendant Spirit
4 Rattlechains
4 Supreme Phantom
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Spell Queller
1 Skyclave Apparition

//Lands: 21
4 Ash Barrens
4 Evolving Wilds
7 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Moorland Haunt

//Sideboard: 15
2 Council's Judgment
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Lofty Denial
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Celestial Kirin
2 Dungeon Geists
2 Empyrean Eagle
2 Forbidding Spirit


Most of the creatures are cheap. Mausoleum Wanderer is the most expensive card. It also does a lot - attacking for fast damage, countering removal spells and combos. If it's out of your budget, you could cut it and run something like Empyrean Eagle, Unsettled Mariner, more Skyclave Apparition, or Lofty Denial instead.

I went with a snow basic manabase so you can get the most value out of Ascendant Spirit. The lands work well with Brainstorm and Daze too (if you already bought those).

Sideboard will depend on what kinds of decks your friends play. I guessed and gave a mix of useful tools.

[snugar_i]

Not actually advocating this, but if you wanted to show them something really exotic, Manaless Dredge (https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=33474&d=455153&f=LE) is about $60 (without sideboard) according to TCGPlayer.
It is a deck that plays no lands, starts the game by doing nothing for a turn, then discarding at end of turn for having too many cards in hand, then very quickly dumps the whole deck into the graveyard and its creatures keep coming back from the dead. A video showing it in action is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw9J-n4nw2Y

The downsides are
1) It's not very fun to play against, because your turns take forever and then they are suddenly dead
2) The cards are completely useless in any other deck
3) It plays basically the same every game, so it's not even that fun for the pilot after a while :-)

[VlaeKD]

Budget UW Spirits deck. Using some of the same cards.


//Spells: 12
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
//you have these already, right?

//Spirit Creatures: 27
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Ascendant Spirit
4 Rattlechains
4 Supreme Phantom
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Drogskol Captain
4 Spell Queller
1 Skyclave Apparition

//Lands: 21
4 Ash Barrens
4 Evolving Wilds
7 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Moorland Haunt

//Sideboard: 15
2 Council's Judgment
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Lofty Denial
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Celestial Kirin
2 Dungeon Geists
2 Empyrean Eagle
2 Forbidding Spirit


Most of the creatures are cheap. Mausoleum Wanderer is the most expensive card. It also does a lot - attacking for fast damage, countering removal spells and combos. If it's out of your budget, you could cut it and run something like Empyrean Eagle, Unsettled Mariner, more Skyclave Apparition, or Lofty Denial instead.

I went with a snow basic manabase so you can get the most value out of Ascendant Spirit. The lands work well with Brainstorm and Daze too (if you already bought those).

Sideboard will depend on what kinds of decks your friends play. I guessed and gave a mix of useful tools.


Hi again! Thanks for that list, heard about it indeed.
I got indeed Daze and Brainstorm, but i thought that Daze wasn't that good without dedicated lands?
That list is clearly under my budget so i lf you see some upgrades, feel free!

Also, no spell banishing a creature for 1 white and giving his owner life? Seemed that it was quite strong in white decks.

Waiting for your details :smile:

[FTW]

I got indeed Daze and Brainstorm, but i thought that Daze wasn't that good without dedicated lands?

Daze needs a lot of "Island"-typed lands. Either
a) 14 Island (all-blue deck)
b) 6 Island-typed lands + 8 lands to fetch them (2-color deck)

Your budget Delver deck didn't have enough "Island" lands to make Daze good. Delver normally uses expensive lands like Volcanic Island ("Island") and Scalding Tarn (fetch).

For the Spirits deck I designed the mana to have 7 Island + 8 fetches (4 Evolving Wilds, 4 Ash Barrens). Daze should work. The high number of basic Islands is fine because most of the spirits are blue.

Brainstorm also wants lands that shuffle your library (4 Evolving Wilds + 4 Ash Barrens), so you can put back 2 cards you don't want and shuffle them away.


Also, no spell banishing a creature for 1 white and giving his owner life? Seemed that it was quite strong in white decks.

You mean Swords to Plowshares? It's in the list above Brainstorm. Yes, it's very strong!


That list is clearly under my budget so i lf you see some upgrades, feel free!

If you have more budget, buy some Prismatic Vista to replace Evolving Wilds. Lands entering untapped is better. It's expensive but a good investment. It can fit into any 2 color deck you make later.