4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season

[FTW]

Question: How does <lava tubes,word of command,golgari rot farm,reito lantern> beat <Lava Tubes,Cabal Pit,Word of Command,Word of Command>? Can't the dummy deck just tap Lava Tubes for red in response?

That's a very good point and how I ended up on Mindslaver loop instead of Word of Command loop (with a different enabler). Word needs very specific conditions to activate opponent's mana abilities: opponent has castable card in hand (did not think of Reito Lantern), you can pay the full cost of the spell, and opponent can't dodge it by tapping out in response. I thought I needed control of the full turn to guarantee it, but it cost matches vs other painland decks.

I ran Demonic Pact to lose the Mindslaver mirror (never came up) without losing to Word (tap out in response).

[Reeplcheep]

I would still like clarification on whether you are allowed to use any non-basics from the decks to beat. Otherwise the boring and very strong strategy is to just pick the DTB that beats the other DTB.

[FTW]

I would still like clarification on whether you are allowed to use any non-basics from the decks to beat. Otherwise the boring and very strong strategy is to just pick the DTB that beats the other DTB.

For future rounds, I agree the target decks should be banned to prevent mirroring or copying.

[jfb1337]

Damn, that sounds right.
Jfb1337's deck and mine are illegal then :/
oops :/

[dte]

I would still like clarification on whether you are allowed to use any non-basics from the decks to beat. Otherwise the boring and very strong strategy is to just pick the DTB that beats the other DTB.

I disagree it is a strong strategy. The imp.deck scores are bad this round.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I disagree it is a strong strategy. The imp.deck scores are bad this round.
That’s fair, but we do need a ruling on whether cards contained in round N’s target decks are legal for use in round N. I’m guessing you intend them to be legal, since you ran Lava Tubes and Word of Command, but any confusion should be resolved. Most players used City of Brass, Dreadship Reef, Word of Command, etc. in the last round, and anybody adhering to a nonexistent restriction is at a disadvantage.

I think the confusion arose because Helix Pinnacle was banned in round 1 but no longer, or something like that.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Wait, Pinnacle is legal again?

[alphastryk]

I definitely thought the banlist was cumulative, so Pinnacle would still be banned - that's how other season bannathons worked in the past.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I just assumed it was legal again since it’s not included on the banned list.

[dte]

The basic rule is anything not on the list is legal.

Thad being said, for helix it is my mistake, it should be on the list.

Anyway, I will come back with the two lists tomorrow, and launch the vote.

[Wrath of Pie]

I'm going to be honest, if we have to beat quad-Wastes it's better to start the season over from scratch because that alone is going to ban so many strategies.

[silkster]

Is it better to make illegal decks score 0 and everyone gets 6 against them, or just not count them as entries? Do two illegal decks go 0-0, 2-2, or, 3-3 against one another?


I'm going to be honest, if we have to beat quad-Wastes it's better to start the season over from scratch because that alone is going to ban so many strategies.

The change in ban strategy and the change in target decks has certainly made this season quite chaotic. We probably think that the same rules from the start but also requiring all decks to beat 4x Wastes would have led to a more interesting and less draw-heavy season, and it might have, but I'm not entirely convinced. I'm happy to embrace the chaos.




As dte said, it was drawland again, but I've actually enjoyed the rounds where we figure out how to make a deck that cannot win, then try to figure out how we can still lose to another deck that cannot win. In all my time playing MtG I've never until now explored the deck-building space around Word of Command and painlands. The counter to the Hint of Insanity deck might have been something like Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Beacon of Destruction, Beacon of Destruction. To me this meta doesn't actually seem lacking. I wonder if, instead of requiring a goldish by adding 4x wastes as a target deck, it would work to make it harder to not goldfish by requiring players to defeat multiple decks from the previous round. If we'd had to beat the Teferi's Imp deck and the 2x Word of Command deck this round, there would have been fewer decks that couldn't goldfish, but that door would still be open for someone with a really ingenious idea.

I like this. You must beat both of the bottom decks.

[alphastryk]

+1 to beating both decks, I think that narrows things down significantly

[Wrath of Pie]

There's a reason that the traditional Backbuild hand-to-beat is typically all blank cards with no characteristics. (Even that doesn't really spare the traditional arguing over what has to be beat, which is why Backbuild is awful.) Having to beat Wastes is an entirely different Backbuild format, because that alone excludes like 90% of the traditional strategies. I'm not convinced that 10% of Backbuild is that good of a stand alone format.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Clearly there are many ways to play Backbuild, each presenting its own kinds of puzzles. I’ve been having fun so far and I’m sure it will continue being fun no matter what rules set dte chooses going forward.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The rules chage every week so really we're playing 10 different Backbuild formats.

[FTW]

When I checked the banlist this week, I was surprised that Helix Pinnacle unbanned itself. I also didn't get why the whole target deck was temporarily banned week 1 (to prevent imitating it) but not this week (allowing imitation). I noticed and played Dreadship Reef (and considered Word of Command), but others may have thought they couldn't play those cards at all. I would prefer more consistency with the rules and bans.

I think we should have a good discussion about it once, then keep the same rules for the remaining format. We could just make the season short so it doesn't get stale.

Edit: If we are making changes, I prefer beating both target decks to beating 4x Wastes.

[Wrath of Pie]

The rules chage every week so really we're playing 10 different Backbuild formats.
Whose Backbuild is it Anyway?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Whose Backbuild is it Anyway?

But unironically.

[dte]

Here are the scores, and the banlists.
Please vote on your favourite system!

So, scores for the round:
2,2 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
2,3 Dooey
2,0 Reeplcheep
0,3 alphastryk
3,2 Wrath of Pie
2,0 RoosterCocoa
2,0 GoblinSmashmaster
3,2 BirdsOfParadise
3,2 Silkster
2,2 Symbi
1,8 FTW
1,4 Asthereal

And general season ranking:
1. Silkster 10,4
2. BirdsOfParadise 10,3
3. Wrath of Pie 10,2
4. RoosterCocoa 9,2
5. Dooey 7,8
6. Symbi 7,7
7. FTW 6,6
8. dte (TO) 6,6
9. Reeplcheep 6,2
10. jfb1337 5,2
11. alphastryk 5
12. GoblinSmashmaster 4,3
13. FourDogsinaHorseSuit 4,2
14. Raketenudo 2,9
15. Asthereal 2,7

The race on top is still neck and neck!

next target decks:
Academy Ruins Dreadship Reef Mindslaver Demonic Pact
City of Brass Dreadship Reef Aura Flux Teferi's Imp

With my system, there would be no bans (I do not see any banworthy card in the top decks). So same banlist as R3, except helix is back on:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Manticore
rhystic cave
Saproling Cluster
Helix pinnacle

And with the other system:
Boseiju, who shelters all
Ancient Tomb
City of Brass
Cognivore
Dreadship Reef
Hint of Insanity
Guiltfeeder
Ivory Mask
Flailing Soldier
Rainbow Vale
Roiling Vortex
One with Nothing
Archangel's Light
Forbidden Orchard
Timberland Ruins
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Ogre
Phage the Untouchable
Lotus Petal
Blinkmoth Infusion
rhystic cave
Mana Crypt
Mox Emerald
Saproling Cluster
Street Wraith
Arcane Signet
drifter il-dal
final fortune
summoner's pact

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

So do i need to beat both targets and wastes.dek?
Both targets?
One target and wastes.dek?

[dte]

So do i need to beat both targets and wastes.dek?
Both targets?
One target and wastes.dek?

One of the targets plus wastes.
Having to beat two non-wastes targets was the most hated option.

And I would imagine their would be much more problems like the one Jfb and me ran into, not the best feeling ;)

But please vote on the banlists!

[FTW]

One of the targets plus wastes.
Having to beat two non-wastes targets was the most hated option.

Ah too bad. I preferred beating 2 non-Wastes targets. 4x Wastes is too stronk. I guess everyone was sick of decks that can't win.

I prefer the short banlist but with temporary ban on the week's target decks (so you can't just imitate one, e.g. Mindslaver lock the Mindslaver deck that was already designed to lose the mirror).

[BirdsOfParadise]

I prefer dte's ban list.

Slight preference for not temp-banning the cards in the target decks, as I think that mimicry of the target decks is an interesting aspect of the meta... but either way is OK with me!

[Wrath of Pie]

And with the other system:
Boseiju, who shelters all
Ancient Tomb
City of Brass
Cognivore
Dreadship Reef
Hint of Insanity
Guiltfeeder
Ivory Mask
Flailing Soldier
Rainbow Vale
Roiling Vortex
One with Nothing
Archangel's Light
Forbidden Orchard
Timberland Ruins
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Ogre
Phage the Untouchable
Lotus Petal
Blinkmoth Infusion
rhystic cave
Mana Crypt
Mox Emerald
Saproling Cluster
Street Wraith
Arcane Signet
drifter il-dal
final fortune
summoner's pact

Honestly, we should go with this plus Flailing Manticore (it can still be built to beat quad-Wastes, and lies in wait for future rounds). Otherwise, we'll still be drawing almost everything the rest of the way. (Also, I want to troll a future round with Jinxed Choker.)

[BirdsOfParadise]

Folks should vote on bans so we can start the round, I wanna know what’s legal.

[Reeplcheep]

The other system and temp banning the cards in the DTB.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I want to use a card on the long banned list so let's use the short one more round

[Symbi]

I would like to temp ban the cards in the DTB and abstain from voting on the bans.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Short list and no banned Goblins!

[dte]

Few votes in finally, so let's start R4 with the short banlist!

next target decks:
Academy Ruins Dreadship Reef Mindslaver Demonic Pact
City of Brass Dreadship Reef Aura Flux Teferi's Imp

You need to WW against one of these two as well as against 4x Wastes

All cards in the decks above are banned for R4 and R4 only.

Additionally, the banlist:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Manticore
rhystic cave
Saproling Cluster
Helix pinnacle

I sent myself a deck, hopefully legal this time, so the round is open!
Deadline Sept 6th, 19h CEST. Have fun deckbuilding!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I sent you my deck but used the wrong title. We're still good right?

[dte]

I sent you my deck but used the wrong title. We're still good right?

Sure :)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Short list and no banned Goblins!


Sure :)

Kick-ass
Hopefully it scores more points than the last deck I made which I thought had to win on it's own.

[dte]

Few votes in finally, so let's start R4 with the short banlist!

next target decks:
Academy Ruins Dreadship Reef Mindslaver Demonic Pact
City of Brass Dreadship Reef Aura Flux Teferi's Imp

You need to WW against one of these two as well as against 4x Wastes

All cards in the decks above are banned for R4 and R4 only.

Additionally, the banlist:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Heartless Summoning
Flailing Manticore
rhystic cave
Saproling Cluster
Helix pinnacle

I sent myself a deck, hopefully legal this time, so the round is open!
Deadline Sept 6th, 19h CEST. Have fun deckbuilding!

Only one day remaining, and very few decks in.
Time to submit (you can always change if you have a better idea before the deadline).

[Asthereal]

Hey guys, I'm back. Thanks for putting up with me being on holiday and away for a bit. :cool:
Normal posting will resume as of today. And I submitted something terrible.

[dte]

Few hours to go, and still missing alphastry, Symbi, FTW, Dooey, and Goblinsmashmaster.

[alphastryk]

Just submitted

[dte]

2 hours to go, and still missing FTW, Dooey, and Goblinsmashmaster.

[FTW]

About to submit... still confirming my deck is legal.

[dte]

About to submit... still confirming my deck is legal.

Well, maybe better submit it and risk it being illegal than missing submission?
I will post decks now.

[dte]

And decks for R4 are in!

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm
Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged
Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura
BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path
jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir 
FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift

[dte]

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt
Me. Just after starting the round, I realized my very clever deck was again illegal. So I submitted another one ASAP before anyone had time to send me anything. Marit lage might not be great at making points, but at least I have no doubts regarding being legal 

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm
6-0, you are faster.
6

Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged
2-2. You get not so far from killing me, but you have to drop spirit before T22.
8

Asthereal: Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
6-0. You kill faster. And I fold to wakwak.
14

Wrath of Pie - Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite
2-2. I guess you cannot win vs city of brass :/
16

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura
0-6. You actually would be able to kill marit! But I can invoke her EoT.
16

BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
6-0, oops no spells 
22

silkster: Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path
6-0, oops all lands  My illegal deck was also a hold/wild evocation deck. It would have perform so well in this metagame. But well, it was not legal.
28

jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder
0-6. I kill you.
28

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
6-0, Wak-Wak kinds of whack me.
34

Symbi]Deck: Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
0-6. Marit Lage kills you.
34

GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir
0-6. Marit smashes!
34

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift
6-0. You can stomp me with survivors.
40

[Reeplcheep]

This might be a round where it would be helpful to post the goldfish turn

[dte]

This might be a round where it would be helpful to post the goldfish turn

Indeed:

Edit: illegal entry dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brassveldt GT23
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm GT9
Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged GT451
Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan GT20
Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite GT around 11
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura GT186
BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle GT6
silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path GT20
jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder GT212
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance GT153
Symbi Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern GT221
GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir GT242 
FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift GT20

[jfb1337]

Isn't City of Brass illegal for this round?

[dte]

Isn't City of Brass illegal for this round?

It is. I see that is me that made the mistake, and for the lack of the same exact card being legal as well :/
Well, illegal again :/

[Reeplcheep]

Since no wincons aren’t allowed anymore, I chose the slowest 3CB deck from previous rounds.
Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged GT451
DTB: R4 D1 and 4x wastes
Imperial Mask, Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged
Neither deck can win. I cast imperial mask on t6 before the mindslaver can be activated. I then save up a bunch of mana and then attack with a 1/4 20 times.

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT 23
I sacrifice my threat to deny your mana. DD 2-2
Edit: illegal per above?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm 9
You go off on turn 9 with 2 life, and I don’t have nearly enough mana to equip and attack twice. I can delay the inevitable for a few turns though. LL 6-0

Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
You have a much faster clock. LL 6-0

Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite
I assume a chump stops you from winning? DD 2-2
I can cast mask in time to prevent rite. WW 0-6

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura
I can’t beat pemmin’s aura with 4 extra mana. LL 6-0

BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
Both target decks have spells they can hardcast to kill your elemental if they choose to not put it in. How does this beat the target decks?
I can always save the mask to kill elemental. If the deck is legal WW 0-6
Deck is legal but I can’t cast mask and pay for upkeep. DD 2-2

silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path
Very cool deck. I only have 1 land though putting my creature in too early is very bad for me. WW 0-6

jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder
I am way slower LL 6-0

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
I have no disruption and a slow combo turn. LL 6-0

Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
I have a much slower goldfish. LL 6-0
Edit: I cast mask in time to not lose. DD 2-2

GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir 
I get smashed by goblins. LL 6-0
I mask to prevent the combo. Casting my creature lets you put your dude out to block. DD 2-2

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift
Very cool. My guy dies early but I only have one land so you can’t kill me. DD 2-2

Edit: 4 W 8 D 10 L 2DQ for 38/60?

[FTW]

It is. I see that is me that made the mistake, and for the lack of the same exact card being legal as well :/
Well, illegal again :/

I missed that rule too. Glad I switched decks.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm
As long as I remember to add a counter EOT to play around the opposing pact's Deal 4, I will win at 2 on t9.

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt
WW-No Creatures, no pressure by t8. I win E: BUT! City is illegal so no points for anyone!
2-0

Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged
WW-When I go to 4, you're forced to cast Spirit or lose to my combo. You won't have enough mana to equip and then I'll wait out the cumulative upkeep and kill you.
4-0

Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
L-L-Barbed Wire deals 2 damage before t9 and I die.
4-2

Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite
DD: One hit from Golem and I can't win. But because of tomb. Neither can you.
4-2-2

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura
WW- No creatures, no pressure
6-2-2

BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
LL-On t3 You cast Eureka and put in your 8/8. I can kill it at any time but that means dying to pact.
6-4-2

silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path
WW- You can't cast Evokation because you lose on the spot. RIvalry does nothing. You lose.
8-4-2

jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder
WW-Gain all the life you want. You're at 0 now.
10-4-2

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
LL-As soon as you make a goat, you win.
10-6-2
Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
WW I kill you before you hit 4 mana
12-6-2

GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir 
WW Goblin Commando doesn't stay in play.
14-6-2

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift
LL You cast Survivors. Now I'm locked out. You cast Evocation and I'll cast pact eventually.

12-8-2
26 Points, Not the worst

[FTW]

FTW: Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift GT NA

If you choose not to play lands, I can't win. I can force out lands with Wild Evocation, but then I must play Gravitational Shift and cannot win unless you have 3 or more lands.

1. dte: You just barely keep a 3rd land to lose to a 1/4. Edit: Illegal.
2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: I play my creature first to avoid losing to Biorhythm, then Wild Evocation makes you die to Pact or Biorhythm. WW 0-6
3. Reeplcheep: You're much slower so we stare. I almost played Blackblade last time, choosing Empyrial for corner cases (doesn't double up with Green Scarab, lost to enchantment hate). DD 2-2
4. Asthereal: I could race Barbed Wire, so you do nothing. DD 2-2
5. Wrath of Pie: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
6. RoosterCocoa: You could store enough mana to kill my 1/4 before it kills you. I'm forced to Wild Evocation, causing your artifact to die. DD 2-2
7. BirdsOfParadise: OTD T3 Elemental kills me before I can cast T6 creature. OTP I could kill it at 4 life and win, so you do nothing and I can't win. DD 2-2
8. silkster: Much better version of what I was trying to do. You have the 2nd land to lose to your own card. WW 0-6
9. jfb1337: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
10. Alphastryk: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
11. Symbi: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2
12. GoblinSmashmaster: Neither of us can win. DD 2-2

18 points (18 draws, 4 wins)

I wanted to submit another deck, but could not confirm it beats one of the target decks, so I replaced it last minute with this deck that can't win but also can't lose. The other deck had both City of Brass and Dreadship Reef... did not even realize it was illegal for that reason too!

[jfb1337]

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23
Illegal; would have been LL 6-0.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm GT9
LL 6-0

Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged GT451
WW 0-6 - you're slower and don't disrupt me

Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan GT20
LL 6-0 - I'm not able to gain life before turn 24

Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite GT around 11
LL 6-0 - I'm not able to gain life before turn 24

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura GT186
LL 6-0 - you're faster

BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle GT6
WW 0-6 assuming this is legal, which I don't see how

silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path GT20
WW 0-6 - clever deck. You can't win vs my deck with only 1 land in it.

jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder GT212
That's me!

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance GT153
LL 6-0 - you're faster

Symbi Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern GT221
DD 2-2 - Appears to be a draw, as you point out and I analyse further in a later post.

GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir GT242 
WW 0-6 - you're slower

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift GT20
DD 2-2 - if I play my land, you beat me with survivors. So I don't play it, and if you play evocation to force out my land then you can't beat me due to shift and I win. So you do nothing too.

Total: 8L 4D 6W = 28

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Can win"

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt
20/20 smash! 6-0

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm
Titan smash! 6-0

Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged
Mask 2-2

Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite
Golem smash! 6-0

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura
Goblins naked 6-0

BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
Goblin stare 2-2

silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path
Rivals 2-2

jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder
Archangel smash! 6-0

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
Goat smash! 6-0

Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
Goblin smash :( 0-6

GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir 
That's me, on Goblin combo!!

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift
Goblin stare 2-2

Total: 36 points

[Symbi]

1. dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brassveldt GT23

Illegal deck

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm GT9

I can't get enough mana to even drain life for two before I die. LL 6-0, 6 total.

3. Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged GT451




Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
I have a much slower goldfish. LL 6-0



Objection! I can't win through your imperial mask as drain life targets. However, I can still kill the spirit and prevent your win. DD 2-2, 8 total

4. Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan GT20

I can't even drain life for 1 before T20. LL 6-0, 14 total

5. Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite GT around 11

Still can't drain life for 1 before you kill me. LL 6-0, 20 total

6. RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura GT186

I'm slower. LL 6-0, 26 total

7. BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle GT6

This deck is legal as the mindslaver deck is one turn too slow to cast mindslaver and demonic pact has that pesky "lose the game" clause. However, my deck is not too slow. WW 0-6, 26 total

8. silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path GT20

You can't win but I can. WW 0-6, 26 total

9. jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder GT212

Should have played solvedi digger. Edit: You can mill me with codex shredder to prevent me from redrawing brass's bounty. I can counteract this by using two activations of lantern, however this means I will need a 14-turn cycle instead of an 11-turn cycle to cast brass's bounty. This is slow enough to allow you to cast archangel's light, activate codex shredder, and cast archangels light again every second cycle, when I am tapped out from casting brass's bounty. This allows you to keep pace with my wincon, even if I try storing enough mana to cast brass's bounty the turn after to dodge codex shredder. DD 2-2, 28 total

10. Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance GT153

I'm slower. LL 6-0, 34 total

11. Symbi Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern GT221

That's me!

12. GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir GT242

You're slower but your lifegain outpaces my wincon. Edit: However my lifegain also outpaces your wincon. DD 2-2, 36 total

13. FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift GT20

Staring contest! DD 2-2, 38 total

[silkster]

Direct link to round 4 google sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nDiaVIAqBE43moQknP8nB8Lq7JDTunJ60bG8m4YrHA4/edit#gid=951981841
By the way, with two illegal entries in round 3, the quotient in the sheet should be 11 instead of 13. I fixed it now.

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt
4 lands is smart. But City of Brass is banned. :/

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm
0-6, pact Oh, you cast the pact yourself on upkeep and the Biorhythm kills me. 6-0. Super lucky for me.

Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged
6-0, I think. I can force out the Spirit before you're ready to pay for it, but then I would die to my own Rivalry.

Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
6-0, I think. I have no attack if you hold the Island. If I try to play out Evocation, you decide on the randomness so you get Leviathan first and I can never do damage.

Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite
2-2, If you try to get charge counters, I can just play Rivalry alone and win. I'm realizing now that I should have used a two-land charge system. I thought someone's win condition might have been Rishadan Port, so I outsmarted myself by playing around that.

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura
6-0. I actually have Naked Singularity + Mechanized Production in my gauntlet. Great minds! Same as against Sustaining Spirit: I can force your combo out before you can pay for it, but then die to my own Rivalry.

BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
6-0. You play Eureka and Elemental, and I have to cast something. But anything I cast will force my whole hand out, and you have 0.5 lands to my 2. I had a Desecration Elemental + Rishadan Port deck in my gauntlet this week, but the fact that the Elemental could beat the Mindslaver deck was throwing me off, cause the deck was designed to beat the Wastes and the City of Brass.

silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path
Me, trying my best not to have a win condition and hoping that no one plays Pacts of any kind.

jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder
6-0. Playing any of my spells kills me, so I don't.

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
0-6. I wondered if we'd see more Islands of Wak-Wak. I thought it was silly at first, but then I almost played it myself this week. Then I almost played a flying threat, like a real creature like Rustwing Falcon, but I didn't think that many people would play it.

Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
6-0. I can do nothing, so I lose slowly.

GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir 
2-2. Disagreement here. If you play out both lands, I can kill you with Rivalry alone, not playing Invocation. So you can't win. I still can't win either.
For a moment I thought Goblin Commando was Skirk Commando, and I wondered what you could have been thinking, but as I was searching for it I realized that it must be "uncastable" on an empty board just like Flametongue Kavu. A very clever use of a Goblin. I appreciate staying true to your name while staying on-format.

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift
6-0. Ooh, I like this version. I had to read Elturel Survivors, and then I had to read another card with myriad to make sure it did what I thought it did. Then I thought I knew what Gravitational Shift did but it didn't make sense, but then I figured out the careful -2/-0 and +2/+0 balance. Then I wondered how you beat either of the target decks, then realized it was the exact same way that I did! I don't have enough lands for the Survivors to do damage, so normally I'd do nothing, but you can Wild Evocation out my Rivalry and kill me with it.

2W, 4D, 16L for 52 points. 8 more points if I play a two-land charge system, but I was too worried about Pacts to realize it. Luckily, most people went with one-land win conditions, which makes sense, cause you have to include your other terrible terrible cards.

[silkster]

Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged GT451

Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
You have a much faster clock. LL 6-0

BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
Both target decks have spells they can hardcast to kill your elemental if they choose to not put it in. How does this beat the target decks?
I can always save the mask to kill elemental. If the deck is legal WW 0-6


Asthereal has a fast clock, but you can beat it by waiting until you're at 1 life and casting the Spirit to save yourself. Then Asthereal dies. Since Barbed Wire loses, Asthereal waits and loses in 451 turns instead.

Desecration Elemental is amazingly fast. It lands on turn 3 and kills on turn 6, while Mindslaver lands on turn 7.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I haven't yet had time for my full scoring, but quickly:

How is my deck legal? (quoted from my submission to dte)
My deck defeats the target deck Academy Ruins, Dreadship Reef, Mindslaver, Demonic Pact. The target deck can cast Mindslaver no sooner than T7. My deck will play T1 Teferi's Isle, T2 Havenwood Battleground, T3 Eureka -> Desecration Elemental, T4 swing (12 life remaining), T5 swing (4 life remaining), T6 swing lethal. This is fast enough on the play or on the draw. The target deck gets no benefit from putting anything into play with Eureka. If the target deck kills Desecration Elemental by casting Demonic Pact, then the target deck eventually dies to its own Pact. My deck defeats 4x Wastes in the obvious way.

@FourDogs:
>>> LL-On t3 You cast Eureka and put in your 8/8. I can kill it at any time but that means dying to pact.
I think DD. I can't win if you hold back Brain in Jar and use it to kill 8/8.

@FTW:
>>> 7. BirdsOfParadise: OTD T3 Elemental kills me before I can cast T6 creature. OTP I could kill it at 4 life and win, so you do nothing and I can't win. DL 4-1
I think I LL. If I go Eureka, you drop Wild Evo. On your turn, you cast a spell using Wild Evo, 8/8 Ele dies. You kill me at your leisure with your creature. If I hold Ele back, you eventually cast Wild Evo, same result.
Edit: No, I think Silkster is right. If Wild Evo’s randomness works in the direction of causing you to lose (or preventing you from winning), then we DD because my best play is to do nothing and you can’t win against that.

@GoblinSmash
>>>BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
Elemental smash! 6-0
I think I LL. I goldfish T6, you can always cast Reservoir T5, so if I play 8/8 Ele I will just lose OTP & OTD. But if I hold it back, you accumulate infinite mana and then you deploy Reservoir and start using combo, always with the option to use Gobbo within 2 turns since you have infinite mana stored; so there's no timing window where 8/8 kills you.

[silkster]

@FourDogs:
>>> LL-On t3 You cast Eureka and put in your 8/8. I can kill it at any time but that means dying to pact.
I think DD. I can't win if you hold back Brain in Jar and use it to kill 8/8.
Makes sense to me.



@FTW:
>>> 7. BirdsOfParadise: OTD T3 Elemental kills me before I can cast T6 creature. OTP I could kill it at 4 life and win, so you do nothing and I can't win. DL 4-1
I think I LL. If I go Eureka, you drop Wild Evo. On your turn, you cast a spell using Wild Evo, 8/8 Ele dies. You kill me at your leisure with your creature. If I hold Ele back, you eventually cast Wild Evo, same result.
FTW can't kill you if you do nothing though. DD?



@GoblinSmash
>>>BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
Elemental smash! 6-0
I think I LL. I goldfish T6, you can always cast Reservoir T5, so if I play 8/8 Ele I will just lose OTP & OTD. But if I hold it back, you accumulate infinite mana and then you deploy Reservoir and start using combo, always with the option to use Gobbo within 2 turns since you have infinite mana stored; so there's no timing window where 8/8 kills you.
This makes sense to me too.

[Wrath of Pie]

This might be a round where it would be helpful to post the goldfish turn

Also which hand was chosen to beat (because beating Mindslaver loops is a lot harder than it looks).

[jfb1337]

9. jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder GT212

Should have played solvedi digger. Edit: You can mill me with codex shredder to prevent me from redrawing brass's bounty. I can counteract this by using two activations of lantern, however this means I will need a 14-turn cycle instead of an 11-turn cycle to cast brass's bounty. This is slow enough to allow you to cast archangel's light, activate codex shredder, and cast archangels light again every second cycle, when I am tapped out from casting brass's bounty. This allows you to keep pace with my wincon, even if I try storing enough mana to cast brass's bounty the turn after to dodge codex shredder. DD 2-2, 28 total


11. Symbi Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern GT221

That's me!



Ah that's interesting that we have similar cycles and disrupt each other.

So first of all I definitely can't win, since you *can* always hold up 3 mana to prevent me from gaining life. The question is can you win; which you could if you could make treasures sufficiently fast.

When I have light in hand and shredder in yard:
- I'd rather not play light as you tuck shredder and I'm down 8 mana to your 3
- You'd rather not tuck shredder early as I could then use it to disrupt your recursion
- If you play bounty, your best bet is to spend 13 mana; to play bounty + tuck shredder (so it costs me a lot more mana to gain life) and bounty. I then replay shredder. I can mill bounty but you re-tuck on your upkeep for an additional 3 mana.

When I have shredder on board and light in hand:
- In order for me to make progress / try to outpace you, I'd need to play light, crack shredder, and play light again. This costs me 21 mana. I only need to do this once per 2 treasures you make though. And I can only do it effectively when you're tapped out.
- In order for you to make progress, you need to play bounty, then tuck it. It seems like the best way to do so is across 2 turns - play it, then tuck it on your upkeep (which you need to commit 6 mana to for 2 tucks; even if I don't mill it; as if you only commit 3 mana then I *do* mill it) - this costs 13 mana total (but 15 effective turns).

So yeah it looks like I can keep pace with you gaining 2 life for every 2 treasure you make. I'm not fully sure all the potential lines have been explored but it does seem like it is indeed a draw.

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite GT around 11

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm GT9 - DD
Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged GT451 - LL - Imperial Mask has this nasty thing called relevant text. Guessing you needed it to beat Slaver lock.
Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan GT20 - WW
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura GT186 - LL - Pemmin's Aura should keep you from ever going to 10 life.
BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle - GT6 - DD
silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path GT20 - DD - Wild Evocation to beat Wastes via Rivalry is clever. Wild Evocation to force out Demonic Pact is even more clever.
jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder GT212 - WW
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance GT153 - LL - Turns out a rusty golem and someone's second rite is stopped by a mere goat.
Symbi Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern GT221 - WW
GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir GT242 - LL - Also stopped by a suicidal goblin.
FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift GT20 - DD - Guess dte has to ban Wild Evocation, he won't be happy about people gaming the 4x Wastes hand.

8l8d = 32 points

I probably should not have played to lose to self-damaging lands in a round which had one of them banned. (This is part of why I wanted the longer list, although then I guess someone wouldn't have found an actual application for Archangel's Light.)

[BirdsOfParadise]

Makes sense to me.
FTW can't kill you if you do nothing though. DD?

If Wild Evo’s randomness works against FTW’s game-winning prospects (and for FTW’s point-scoring prospects), then I believe you’re correct. Edited.

That said, do I control the Wild Evo triggers on my own upkeep or no? If yes, does that randomness work against my prospects of winning? If so, I LL. I think the answer is no but I’m looking for clarification.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If Wild Evo’s randomness works against FTW’s game-winning prospects (and for FTW’s point-scoring prospects), then I believe you’re correct. Edited.

That said, do I control the Wild Evo triggers on my own upkeep or no? If yes, does that randomness work against my prospects of winning? If so, I LL. I think the answer is no but I’m looking for clarification.

I asked this when I played it round 2:
The owner gets the short end. And you're not the owner

[silkster]

If Wild Evo’s randomness works against FTW’s game-winning prospects (and for FTW’s point-scoring prospects), then I believe you’re correct. Edited.

That said, do I control the Wild Evo triggers on my own upkeep or no? If yes, does that randomness work against my prospects of winning? If so, I LL. I think the answer is no but I’m looking for clarification.

My understanding is that since I control the thing that is most proximally causing the randomness (here, the enchantment), my opponent chooses how it resolves for both of us. In Ostracize v Emrakul, it is the Emrakul that causes the shuttle. Also that after casting Mnemonic Nexus my opponent would choose the orders of both libraries.

[FTW]

I asked this when I played it round 2:
The owner gets the short end. And you're not the owner

It is definitely not the owner. Otherwise Mana Crypt + Donate does not work (under our rules it has in past seasons).

I think it is against the controller of the spell or ability though.
Hymn to Tourach at opponent -> opponent chooses and discards 2 cards
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn to your graveyard -> your library arranges in the worst possible order for you
Mana Crypt -> deals controller 3 damage each upkeep

We haven't had many instances of a card causing both players to have random effects. But I think
Mana Clash -> caster takes infinite damage
Timetwister -> your library arranges in worst order, opponent's library arranges in best order (if optimal order depends on the other, then it's the joint configuration worst for Timetwister's caster)

In this case it means if BoP does nothing, I can't force Desecration Elemental or Eureka out because Wild Evocation would play the 2 lands first (then I run out of spells and lose to Elemental). However if BoP casts Eureka -> Elemental, I can drop Wild Evocation and cast a spell fast enough to kill Elemental both OTP and OTD (I missed that), but my creature is too small to win. DD 2-2

[Wrath of Pie]

It is definitely not the owner. Otherwise Mana Crypt + Donate does not work (under our rules it has in past seasons).

It should probably work against the owner for the sake of simplicity, but we should wait until the current season is over.

[FTW]

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift
6-0. Ooh, I like this version. I had to read Elturel Survivors, and then I had to read another card with myriad to make sure it did what I thought it did. Then I thought I knew what Gravitational Shift did but it didn't make sense, but then I figured out the careful -2/-0 and +2/+0 balance. Then I wondered how you beat either of the target decks, then realized it was the exact same way that I did! I don't have enough lands for the Survivors to do damage, so normally I'd do nothing, but you can Wild Evocation out my Rivalry and kill me with it.

Unfortunately Wild Evocation and Elturel Survivors are both red! If they are different colors, I would have to play Wild Evocation first, Gravitational Shift is forced out, and then I have no clock unless opponent has 3+ lands. That was my goal. It would LL to everything except your deck and the Pact deck. The +2/+0 helps lose to Teferi's Imp and other expected flyers.

But I can cast Elturel Survivors without Evocation. If opponent plays any land, I have a 1/4 threat. Too fast! Just about every deck is forced to sandbag land and do nothing. It's a whole pile of draws. So I kept this idea on the backburner. But my main idea didn't quite beat the target deck (and had illegal cards anyway), so I panic-submitted this at the deadline.

Your Rivalry tech was a much cleaner way to attack the same concept. Nice deck!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Random effects are always detrimental to the controller of the effect.

Veldt does not enter tapped, but can be tapped in response to a mindslaver activation;)

[BirdsOfParadise]

Thanks, all.
On the same page now, BoP vs FTW = DD.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Me: BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt
Illegal deck. Shucks.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm
You hold back Brain to kill 8/8 if I play 8/8, so I don't.
DD (2 pt)

Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged
You can do your plan while always keeping a spell handy (first the equipment, later the mask).
LL (2 + 6 = 8 pt)

Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
You hold back Wire to kill 8/8 in case I play 8/8, so I don't.
DD (8 + 2 = 10 pt)

Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite
You hold back Golem to kill 8/8 in case I play 8/8, so I don't.
DD (10 + 2 = 12 pt)

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura
If I play 8/8, you kill it with Pemmin's Aura, then win at your leisure. If I don't play 8/8, you can also win. Jaw-droppingly slow goldfish you've got there!
LL (12 + 6 = 18 pt)

silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path
You have several lines that all result in me winning.
WW (still 18 pt)

jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder
If I'm not mistaken, you can proceed with your plan while always keeping a spell handy to kill 8/8. (Store one million counters while holding back Codex at first, if necessary.)
LL (18 + 6 = 24 pt)

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
Looks like you can't cast your spell very quickly, so 8/8 kills you.
WW (still 24 pt)

Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
You can hold Reito Lantern as 8/8 removal until you have one million storage counters, then you can do your plan while always being able to remove 8/8.
LL (24 + 6 = 30 pt)

GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir 
You can go Reservoir in time to kill 8/8 if I rush out the 8/8. If I don't rush it out, you can do your plan without leaving open a timing window for 8/8 by first stockpiling one million storage counters.
LL (30 + 6 = 36 pt)

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift
As detailed above, DD.
DD (36 + 2 = 38 pt)

Total = 38 pt --- and hopefully an achievement for fastest goldfish submitted so far? ;-)

[Wrath of Pie]

Total = 38 pt --- and hopefully an achievement for fastest goldfish submitted so far? ;-)

I think T6 is going to be really hard to beat, that should easily top the whole season.

[RoosterCocoa]

RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt
Illegal deck, LL

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm
I can't make a creature or stop you, LL

Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged
You are slower than me, WW

Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan
Barbed Wire is too fast for me, LL

Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite
Pemmin's Aura is too much for your Golem, WW

BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle
Pemmin's Aura kills your Elemental, WW

silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path
If you play Wild Evocation, you lose to Rivalry. If you don't, I win. WW

jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder
You are slower than me, WW

Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
You are faster than me, even though I can kill a goat. LL

Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern
You are slower than me, WW

GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir 
You are slower than me, WW

FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift
Pemmin's Aura kills your Survivors, but Wild Evocation means I can't pay my cumulative upkeep. DD

14W 2D 8L = 26

I came up with several great decks, but they all unfortunately were too bad to beat the sample decks this week, so I chose a not great list. I knew Pemmin's Aura was too good going into this, but Teferi's Imp having phasing meant that several better options didn't work, and I though people would play fliers to counter Island of Wak-Wak, so I skipped over it.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Rooster, I compute your GT as 270. Just FYI. One of us must be making a mistake. This doesn’t affect my match with you, but it still would affect you if my math is right.

RoosterCocoa must pay:

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 7 turns (triangular number of 7 x 3 = 28 x 3 = 84)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 6 turns (tri number of 6 x 3 = 21 x 3 = 63)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 5 turns (45)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 4 turns (30)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 3 turns (18)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 2 turns (9)

Cumulative upkeep 3 once (3)

Cost of Naked Singularity (5)

Cost of Mechanized Production (4)

Total (261)

Sand Silos untaps ready to make 261 mana on turn 263. Then it takes 7 upkeeps to win. Victory on upkeep of turn 270.
Never mind, I forgot about correctly stacking triggers on seventh turn of cumulative upkeeps. 186 it is.

[Symbi]

Rooster, I compute your GT as 270. Just FYI. One of us must be making a mistake. This doesn’t affect my match with you, but it still would affect you if my math is right.

RoosterCocoa must pay:

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 7 turns (triangular number of 7 x 3 = 28 x 3 = 84)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 6 turns (tri number of 6 x 3 = 21 x 3 = 63)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 5 turns (45)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 4 turns (30)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 3 turns (18)

Cumulative upkeep 3 over 2 turns (9)

Cumulative upkeep 3 once (3)

Cost of Naked Singularity (5)

Cost of Mechanized Production (4)

Total (261)

Sand Silos untaps ready to make 261 mana on turn 263. Then it takes 7 upkeeps to win. Victory on upkeep of turn 270.

Rooster can stack the triggers to avoid having to pay cumulative upkeep on the last turn. This means the 84 mana from paying cumulative upkeep over seven turns can be removed from the calculation, and 270 - 84 = 186.

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores for round 4:

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt (illegal)
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Ancient Tomb Brain in a Jar Pact of the Titan Biorhythm WW (0)
Reeplcheep Imperial Mask , Fountain of Cho, Sustaining Spirit, Blackblade Reforged WW (0)
That is a spectacularly slow clock. Well done.
(Asthereal Island of Wak-Wak, Mishra's workshop, Barbed Wire, Leviathan <-me)
Wrath of Pie Mana Confluence, Mage-Ring Network, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite LL (6)
You only have to make the golem if I make the wire. But if I don't make anything I just die to your stuff. Even timing wire doesn't change anything.
RoosterCocoa Sand Silos, Mechanized Production, Naked Singularity, Pemmin's Aura WW (0)
Even slower. Okay then.
BirdsOfParadise Desecration Elemental, Eureka, Havenwood Battleground, Teferi's Isle DD (2)
I have to keep back my spell so I can kill your guy, but you can also wait before making the guy. So we stare.
silkster Dwarven Hold, Wild Evocation, Rivalry, Sorrow's Path LL (0)
This deck can't even win against me.
jfb1337 Icatian Store Test of Endurance Archangel's Light Codex Shredder LL (0)
Also very slow. Your only way to get a card in the grave for Light is to first cast Light for nothing, then use Shredder and only THEN cast Light for life points. That does not happen before Wire kills you.
Alphastryk Island of Wak-Wak, Molten Slagheap, Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance WW (6)
All you need to do to beat me is gain 1 life before Wire kills you by turn 21. You have plenty of time to do that and from there activate your wincon, which I can't stop.
Symbi]Deck Drain Life, Brass's Bounty, Mercadian Bazzar, Reito Lantern WW (0)
This is actually quite close. I think OTD I kill you the turn before you get to gain one life point and murder me.
GoblinSmashmaster Volrath's Stronghold, Molten Slagheap, Goblin Commando, Aetherflux Reservoir LL (6)
You only need 9 mana to gain the 1 life point you need to not die to Wire, so you can easily make that. I can't stop your wincon.
FTW Mercadian Bazaar, Wild Evocation, Elturel Survivors, Gravitational Shift DD (2)
I cannot do nothing if you make the Evocation. But if you do, you are forced to drop your Shift and your guy does no damage anymore. Interesting tech, this. You have Evocation but can't use it as it'd kill you. So despite Evocation we still end up staring and doing nothing. Took me a while to figure this one out on my own. :)

Total: 22 points.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Rooster can stack the triggers to avoid having to pay cumulative upkeep on the last turn. This means the 84 mana from paying cumulative upkeep over seven turns can be removed from the calculation, and 270 - 84 = 186.
I see, that makes sense.

[dte]

And round is over!

I am happy to see that the draws are now a minority, despite FTW's best efforts.

4,7 Silkster
3,5 BirdsOfParadise
3,5 jfb1337
3,5 Symbi
3,3 Reeplcheep
3,1 GoblinSmashmaster
2,9 Wrath of Pie
2,4 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
2,0 Asthereal
1,8 RoosterCocoa
1,8 FTW
1,3 alphastryk

Overall on the season:
1. Silkster 15,7
2. BirdsOfParadise 14,4
3. Wrath of Pie 13,7
4. Symbi 11,6
5. RoosterCocoa 11,4
6. Reeplcheep 9,9
7. FTW 8,8
8. jfb1337 8,7
9. Dooey 8,2
10. GoblinSmashmaster 7,8
11. FourDogsinaHorseSuit 7
12. dte (TO) 6,6
13. alphastryk 6,4
14. Asthereal 4,9
15. Raketenudo 2,9

Silkster in the lead now, with BoP and WoP close!

Added cards on the banlist:
Sustaining Spirit --> repeatedly used, 0 power plus cumulative upkeep
Wild Evocation --> very fun, but too powerful
Test of Endurance
Aetherflux Reservoir
celestial convergence
The last three are strategically similar.

No other banned cards, temporarily or not.

Target decks:
Mercadian BazaarWild Evocation Elturel Survivors Gravitational Shift
Island of Wak-Wak Molten Slagheap Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
Sand Silos Mechanized Production Naked Singularity Pemmin's Aura

And the round is open, I just sent myself a deck.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Don't forget to update the OP

[FTW]

I understand the Wild Evocation ban, but why the others?

They are slow but not oppressive. They did not score exceptionally well, and there are other ways to make slow decks.

[jfb1337]

I'm not sure Celestial Convergence is banned; it wasn't played and it's not really very similar at all to Test of Endurence or Aetherflux Reservoir (rather than wanting you to slowly build up to a high life total, it just wants you to have 1 more life than the opponent).

[Wrath of Pie]

I came up with several great decks, but they all unfortunately were too bad to beat the sample decks this week, so I chose a not great list. I knew Pemmin's Aura was too good going into this, but Teferi's Imp having phasing meant that several better options didn't work, and I though people would play fliers to counter Island of Wak-Wak, so I skipped over it.

I would have been really tempted to play Gut Shot.

@dte: I don't see an upside to keeping Rivalry legal.

[dte]

@dte: I don't see an upside to keeping Rivalry legal.

Me neither, I'll add it to the banlist.

Rivalry is banned!


I'm not sure Celestial Convergence is banned; it wasn't played and it's not really very similar at all to Test of Endurence or Aetherflux Reservoir (rather than wanting you to slowly build up to a high life total, it just wants you to have 1 more life than the opponent).

Well, 2 out of 3 cards I know that make you win by gaining life passed the threshold of 3 points.
It does make sense to ban the third?


I understand the Wild Evocation ban, but why the others?

They are slow but not oppressive. They did not score exceptionally well, and there are other ways to make slow decks.

Wild evocation was definitely the worst offender.
The others are more debatable, banned here to shake things up a bit.

Gaining life strategy was played by 25% of the field, and two different options passed the 3 threshold.

Spirit has scored well and has been a go-to option to be slow. Let's see variations.

[jfb1337]

Well, 2 out of 3 cards I know that make you win by gaining life passed the threshold of 3 points.
It does make sense to ban the third?


But the purpose of the other cards is that you can make gaining 30 life be slower than dealing 20 damage. Whereas convergence is just an entirely different strategy altogether, of playing it and either gaining one life or dealing one damage. It's a lot closer to Bond of Agony that was seen before than it is to those 50-life wincons.

[silkster]

Added cards on the banlist:
Sustaining Spirit --> repeatedly used, 0 power plus cumulative upkeep
Wild Evocation --> very fun, but too powerful
Test of Endurance
Aetherflux Reservoir
celestial convergence
The last three are strategically similar.

No other banned cards, temporarily or not.

Target decks:
Mercadian BazaarWild Evocation Elturel Survivors Gravitational Shift
Island of Wak-Wak Molten Slagheap Springjack Pasture Test of Endurance
Sand Silos Mechanized Production Naked Singularity Pemmin's Aura

And the round is open, I just sent myself a deck.

Just to be clear, I think the following is correct:

1) Your deck must still be 4x Wastes.
2) You must beat at least one of the decks listed above, and all of the cards in those decks themselves are legal (except for Test of Endurance and Wild Evocation).

[dte]

Just to be clear, I think the following is correct:

1) Your deck must still beat 4x Wastes.
2) You must beat at least one of the decks listed above, and all of the cards in those decks themselves are legal (except for Test of Endurance and Wild Evocation).

Correct.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Correct.

So someone can roll backk the Sand Silos, Mechanized Production deck?

[silkster]

So someone can roll back the Sand Silos, Mechanized Production deck?

No, cause that doesn't WW against any of the target decks though. It's DD against Survivors and LL against Springjack Pasture + Test of Endurance.

You can however run back the Springjack Pasture + Test of Endurance deck, cause that goes WW against Mechanized Production.

[jfb1337]

No, cause that doesn't WW against any of the target decks though. It's DD against Survivors and LL against Springjack Pasture + Test of Endurance.

You can however run back the Springjack Pasture + Test of Endurance deck, cause that goes WW against Mechanized Production.
You can't because test of endurance is banned.

[FTW]

I see. So the minimal bans are strategic enough that you can't run any of the target decks. Good choice.

[Wrath of Pie]

I see. So the minimal bans are strategic enough that you can't run any of the target decks. Good choice.
Mechanized Production can probably be reconfigured to beat the Test of Endurance hand.

[dte]

Mechanized Production can probably be reconfigured to beat the Test of Endurance hand.

True, it is very easy to reconfigurate it in a much better deck that beat itself or the other, without the aura.

Naked singularity banned!

[silkster]

True, it is very easy to reconfigure it in a much better deck that beat itself or the other, without the aura.

Naked singularity banned!

These late arriving bans are interesting. I suppose you know whether you've received submissions based on them already, and also that others can resubmit anyway.

On that note, shouldn't Desecration Elemental, having scored 3.5 round points, also get banned?

[dte]

On that note, shouldn't Desecration Elemental, having scored 3.5 round points, also get banned?

It could have been banned. I just can't imagine it being ever good, as it can work only against decks that can kill you while still be always ready to cast a spell. Maybe I am wrong ;)

So I just had a look, and at least vs Reep BoP shouldn't LL, imperial mask doesn't have flash. So, not scoring 3,5.

[BirdsOfParadise]

I see what you mean. Reepicheep cannot win against me because once Sustaining Spirit is equipped with Blackblade Reforged and is attacking me, I can drop Desecration Elemental into play and threaten to race. Reepicheep could tap Fountain of Cho during the upkeep step to keep Sustaining Spirit alive, but that would make it impossible to cast Imperial Mask during the main phase. So instead Reepicheep must sacrifice Sustaining Spirit during the upkeep and cast Imperial Mask during the main phase to avoid dying to Desecration Elemental, but then Reepicheep has no way to win.

Of course, I cannot win either.

DD makes sense to me.

[silkster]

It could have been banned. I just can't imagine it being ever good, as it can work only against decks that can kill you while still be always ready to cast a spell. Maybe I am wrong ;)

So I just had a look, and at least vs Reep BoP shouldn't LL, imperial mask doesn't have flash. So, not scoring 3,5.


Losing 4 points there still gets more than 3.0 points, but then Pemmin's Aura has the same lack of flash issue that Imperial Mask has. So that should be a draw too. Which means 30 match points, for 2.8 round points. We did it!

[BirdsOfParadise]

No, wait. Singularity deck saves a billion mana. Deck starts doing combo. I drop 8/8 and threaten race — but I’m using Eureka, so singularity deck drops Pemmin’s Aura directly onto 8/8 and kills it with Aura’s activations. Does that not work?

[FTW]

True, it is very easy to reconfigurate it in a much better deck that beat itself or the other, without the aura.

Naked singularity banned!

Are we locking in the bannings now?

The first deck I submitted was Naked Singularity (before this ban) so I want to make sure I don't submit other banned ideas or that another card doesn't get banned if submission is too good.


Losing 4 points there still gets more than 3.0 points, but then Pemmin's Aura has the same lack of flash issue that Imperial Mask has. So that should be a draw too. Which means 30 match points, for 2.8 round points. We did it!

Aura's +8/-8 is instant speed though.

[dte]

Are we locking in the bannings now?

The first deck I submitted was Naked Singularity (before this ban) so I want to make sure I don't submit other banned ideas or that another card doesn't get banned if submission is too good.

Bans are locked.
And I wouldn't have banned naked singularity if you didn't send me another submission first, not using singularity.

Anyone sending me a legal deck will not have it made illegal by a later ban.
À good reason to submit early!

[BirdsOfParadise]

When is the deadline for R5?

[dte]

When is the deadline for R5?

Tuesday at 19h.
I should have written from the beginning: deadline is each Tuesday at 19h.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Tuesday at 19h.
I should have written from the beginning: deadline is each Tuesday at 19h.

put it, the decks to beat, and links in the OP

[dte]

put it, the decks to beat, and links in the OP

I did :)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I did :)


Direct links to posts with the decks for each round in the 13th season:
- Decks and discussion for round 8
- Decks and discussion for round 7
- Decks and discussion for round 6
- Decks and discussion for round 5
- Decks and discussion for round 4
- Decks and discussion for round 3
- Decks and discussion for round 2: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1101391
- Decks and discussion for round 1 : https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...=1#post1101209
You look a few rounds behind to me.

[Wrath of Pie]

Are we locking in the bannings now?

The first deck I submitted was Naked Singularity (before this ban) so I want to make sure I don't submit other banned ideas or that another card doesn't get banned if submission is too good.

Did it have the mighty Broodstar so people would stop trying to submit Island of Wak-Wak?

[RoosterCocoa]

I feel fairly confident in saying that my deck this week contains the most powerful card we will see in a deck this entire season.

[Wrath of Pie]

I feel fairly confident in saying that my deck this week contains the most powerful card we will see in a deck this entire season.
But can you cast said powerful card?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I feel fairly confident in saying that my deck this week contains the most powerful card we will see in a deck this entire season.

Someone already has lotus and we've seen workshop a few times.

[RoosterCocoa]

Someone already has lotus and we've seen workshop a few times.

I somehow forgot about the lotus. I guess I'll have to settle for using a very powerful card to enable a strategy that I'm still surprised can win against one of the target decks.

[dte]

25h to the deadline, and missing these 5: Silkster, BirdsOfParadise, Symbi, FourDogsinaHorseSuit, alphastryk

[alphastryk]

Submitted a deck (that is likely to score poorly)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The pick is in.

[dte]

So just Silkster and BirdsOfParadise left!

[dte]

So just Silkster and BirdsOfParadise left!

Silkster only missing, but it would be sad to miss the current season leader!

[silkster]

Silkster only missing, but it would be sad to miss the current season leader!
I've got an hour, right? Or did I do my time zones wrong? I'm almost ready.

[dte]

I've got an hour, right? Or did I do my time zones wrong? I'm almost ready.

One hour you have, great to read you won't miss out :)

[dte]

And all decks are in!

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23
GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6
Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12
Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13
jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160
alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23
silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27

[silkster]

Well, now it actually is 19h00 CEST.

I think I was in by 19h00m59. Maybe. :tongue: Or maybe not, in which case, thanks for waiting :smile:

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23
2-2. You can play Veldt and hold the War Zone in your hand to get you the final point of damage. And there's definitely no way you can tap City of Brass 10 times.

GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
6-0. By my count, you need 12+4+4+3 mana in order to do one damage once, so you can do that on turn 25. Since I don't kill until turn 27, you can stop me and kill me if I try to do so.

FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6
2-2. I only have one castable spell, so I can't win if you hold onto the Elemental. I almost played Desecration Elemental this week, and I almost played Eladamri's Vineyard too. But not like this, and not together. This is really neat.

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
6-0. Wow, this is cool. It took me quite a few fun moments to figure out what was going on. And I had a few back and forth moments thinking that you can or can't beat me. So you wait until you have 16 or so counters, then Mindslaver me. You play the Fungal Reaches if I haven't already and then you tap me out so that I can't Avoid Fate the Frenzied Fugue. On your turn, you safely play Frenzied Fugue, and then you'll be able to make a 1/1 and kill me.

Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
6-0. A very cool use of randomness! So you get to do stuff on turn 12 when you can make 11 mana for Scroll + Apex. The fact that you have to wait another 11 4 turns to do anything doesn't hurt you cause 2 damage already ruins me.

Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12
2-2. I only have one castable, so I DD against Desecration Elemental. You know, the more I look at how narrowly I avoided beating the Elemental, the more I think I should have played the Elemental.

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
2-2. Oh damn! I've looked at Impatience a few times but never put this together. Luckily for me, if I play my threat, then your Impatience will hit me first. So we just stare.

RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13
2-2. Ah, a build-your-own Desecration Elemental! Only one castable from me, which means that I can't attack you, so we stare.

jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160
6-0. Blood Artist means that you attack harder than I do, so I can never cast a spell. So I slowly die to... recasting the Sutured Ghoul to get Blood Artist triggers. This took me a while to find.

alphastryk: Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
6-0. You make Bootlegger's Stash on turn 12. In the next 8 turns, you make 16 treasures, use 6 to cast Citadel, then you have 10 to sacrifice. I initially forgot about Veldt making treasures instead of mana and in the version of reality it's so close that it might be WL.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
2-2. Pact of the Titan means that you can jump ahead on the last turn if I try to kill you. The pain from Ancient Tomb means that if you try to kill me then you will lose the race.

Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
2-2. The fact that you can never do damage on consecutive turns (not even close!) means that you can't sneak a kill without me attacking while you're at 1. But if I ever play my threat, you casually kill it and then kill me with the token. So we stare.


BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23
2-2. Same as dte.

silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27[/QUOTE]
Me, hoping that last minute inspiration would strike and then falling back on a simple single threat. It was a toss-up between this and a deck that looked pretty close to Symbi's in theory but was actually much much worse.

5WW, 8DD = 10W, 16D = 46 points.

I had a few ideas this week, but none of them seemed great. Moreover, I really had no idea what other people were going to do. Those 4x land decks are smart.

[dte]

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23
Me. Last week it was scoring fine, and was beating one of the target decks. After two weeks not being able to submit a legal deck, I went for safety. Also, I wanted to play no spells as impatience was quite playable ;)

GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
0-6. Lage smashes gobs!
0

FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6
6-0. elementaled – cheesed?
6

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
6-0. You steal one of my lands and win.
12

Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
6-0. You could have played an unplayable over apocalypse?
18

Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12
6-0. Cheesed again
24

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
6-0. Oops no spells number 4. Actually the only deck I expected, except the manabase.
30

RoosterCocoa Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13
6-0. Still no spells.
36

jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160
0-6. I am way faster.
36

alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
6-0. Taking 10 before making Lage was good here ;) My GT is 23, T12 you cast stash, then for 8 turns you make 16 treasures and prevent I ever make Lage on T20.
42

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
6-0. No creature on my side.
48

Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
0-6. The much better version of my deck. I expect this would do very well. I do not see what you do not 6-0, except 4dogs/horses?
48

BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23
2-2. Great mind think alike!
50

silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27
6-0. Your life of the party steals my war zone, but even if it was a plain forest, you would kill me before I can have a marit lage.
56
Edit: Damn, Silkster is right, and contested war zone is actually way worse than a basic :/
52

Well, it seems that the deck scores well – except the numerous mistakes I probably did. But I thought the great idea I had was contested war zone, and it was not relevant a single time, wastes in the same slot would have given the same score :/

[silkster]

Well, it seems that the deck scores well – except the numerous mistakes I probably did. But I thought the great idea I had was contested war zone, and it was not relevant a single time, wastes in the same slot would have given the same score :/

Contested War Zone actually costs you 4 points against me, cause you can play out the Veldt and hold the War Zone until the last turn to jump ahead in the race. So I can't cast my threat and we stare.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt
2-0 Too fast, whoop whoop whoop
2-0
GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
2-0 Mob sacrficies itself so I'll just kill you when it's not in play.
4-0
FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6
0-0-2 If I ever play the brain I lose, so you hold the Elemental until then we're deadlocked waiting for the other to act. Like last time
4-0-2
Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
0-2 If I take an action you're going to use it against me with Fugue, including putting a 1/1 into play, but the Mindslver offers a clock to kill me.
4-2-2
Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
2-0 I think the randomness rules mean I win (and therefore lose?) because you'll miss with the scroll.
6-2-2
Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12
1-0-1 On the Play I can race you, but on the draw I can't and have to hold back the Jar to kill demon.
7-2-3
Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
0-0-2 If I tap to cast brain I'll die to Impatience. If I do nothing and you cast Impatience, then on the turn where I would die I instead cast pact and you die on your end step. So we agree to do nothing.
7-2-5
RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13
0-0-2 I have to hold back the brain so you can't hit me once, but you have to hold back the standstill so I can.
7-2-7
jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160
0-2 A blood artist? Scary.
7-4-7
alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
2-0 You slow
9-4-7
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
Rolling it back is for cowards.

Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
0-2 You can deal 2 damage one turn faster on the play thann I can cast Biorthym.
9-4-9
BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23
2-0 I already beat this this round.
11-4-9
silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27[/QUOTE]
0-2 It takes you 7 turns to make a guy which means I can't win, so I have to do nothing and die to being a loser in the corner who didn't want to even go to this stupid party, god.
11-6-9
27 points.

[silkster]

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
Rolling it back is for cowards.

silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27
0-2 It takes you 7 turns to make a guy which means I can't win, so I have to do nothing and die to being a loser in the corner who didn't want to even go to this stupid party, god.


Multiple opponents missing the same play makes me think that maybe I'm the one missing something, but if I try to win, can you just wait until your 19th attack, cast Pact of the Titan, then attack for 2 and kill me? So I lose if I try to make this party happen.

[Reeplcheep]

ReeplcheepVeldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12

Desecration elemental seemed very interesting from last round. Additionally, the test of endurance deck is even slower at casting its first spell so you can make the deck worse. I win if you can’t cast a spell before T12, which neither wastes nor test of endurance can do.

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23
No spells WW 0-6

GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
It doesn’t cost you anything to play charbeltcher ahead of time. LL 6-0

FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6
I can’t cast a spell before t9 and you don’t put my elemental in to block. LL 6-0
Edit: I didn’t realize vineyard mana can be used for abilities. You let me suspend t1 if I want too, but then you just outwait it. Since elemental kills in 3 turns and hypergenesis has suspend 3 you kill me just in time if I stare t1. LL 6-0

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
Casting wail ahead of time doesn’t hurt you LL 6-0.
Edit: casting mindslaver ahead of time doesn’t hurt you. You can use fugue to prevent me from suspending hypergenesis while also making colourless for you to cast wail. LL 6-0

Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
Casting curses scroll before t12 doesn’t hurt you. LL 6-0
But I would win the race if you cast apex. DD 2-2

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
The second threat wins, so we stare. DD 2-2

RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13
The second threat wins, so we stare. DD 2-2

jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160
Casting blood artist before t12 doesn’t hurt you. LL 6-0

alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
Casting your cards doesn’t hurt but the earliest you can do it is t12. Is this our first WL? 3-3

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
The earliest I can make a creature is t9. LD 4-1
Edit: biorhythm kills my creature and only checks on resolution. LL 6-0

Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
No spells. WW 0-6

BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23
No spells. WW 0-6

silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27
The only castable spell is also your wincon. DD 2-2

7 W 8 D 11 L for 41/88. I expected a few no spell decks but not that many.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Multiple opponents missing the same play makes me think that maybe I'm the one missing something, but if I try to win, can you just wait until your 19th attack, cast Pact of the Titan, then attack for 2 and kill me? So I lose if I try to make this party happen.

There's 13 scenarios I have to go over and yours was the 13th. Sorry!

[Symbi]

1. dte (TO): dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT:23

You need to take 10 damage, but I can only deal the remaining 10 by T40. LL 6-0, 6 total

2. GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT:177

You deal 1 damage to me before I can kill you, then I can't win. LL 6-0, 12 total

3. FTW: Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT:6

Oops no spells. LL 6-0, 18 total

4. Dooey: Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar

You cast fugue on my Rath's edge on a turn where Teferi's isle is phased in (or in my hand) and use the mana to make a token. On my next turn, I can't activate Rath's edge as I don't have the mana from Teferi's isle. Then on your next turn you sac Rath's edge to its own ability, preventing me from using it to remove your token. LL 6-0, 24 total

5. Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power

You damage me before I can win. LL 6-0, 30 total

6. Reeplcheep: Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT:12

Oops no spells again. LL 6-0, 36 total

7. Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT:13

I still have no spells. Edit: If you cast impatience, I can always sneak the last damage through before the trigger on my end step; however if you wait until we are at 2 you can kill me with impatience then. Therefore we stare. DD 2-2, 38 total

8. RoosterCocoa: Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT:13

I continue not having any spells (Also standstill will have 2 toughness so I can't remove it). LL 6-0, 44 total

9. jfb1337: Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT:160

I can remove your threats but my life total will be too low to win. Edit: dte is correct here. LL 6-0, 50 total

10. alphastryk: Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash

You can make 16 treasures and hit me for 10 before I can win. LL 6-0, 56 total

11. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT:9

I can deal 2 before T9. As for casting pact, it doesn't work. The token doesn't have haste, and if it is cast during a previous turn to avoid summoning sickness, FourDogs will just die to pact. In silkster's case, however, pact does work. WW 0-6, 56 total

12. Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80

That's me!

13. BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT:23

Same as dte. LL 6-0, 62 total

14. silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT:27

If I start pinging, you can wait until we are both at 1 life. Then it will be my turn, but Teferi's isle will be out of play (Assume I ping during your end step). During your turn, you cast Life of the party and swing. Then I have to block, and next turn I can't activate Rath's edge as I will need to get drownyard temple back so you just kill me. However, if you play your creature too early, I can just remove it then beat down with my token. So we just stare. Edit: Illegal deck. N/A 0-0, 62 total

[dte]

9. jfb1337: Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT:160

I can remove your threats but my life total will be too low to win. DD 2-2, 50 total

12. Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80

That's me!


You actually cannot remove the threats, as blood artist can be played once you are at 1 life and isle is phased out.
If you do not lose life, staring, you take 20 in one turn when isle is phased out.

[FTW]

FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6

Too many players played around Desecration Elemental. I really should have gone with my other idea. I almost switched last night, then didn't.

1. dte (TO): You don't have spells. WW 0-6
2. GoblinSmashmaster: You can store infinite mana and still cast spells after you start winning. LL 6-0
3. Dooey: If I do nothing, you would have to Mindslaver me to force out Citadel -> Vineyard, and use your remaining 2 cards to make a 1/1, so instead you save them to kill Elemental. DD 2-2
4. Asthereal: Nice tech against Elemental. To kill it, you have to play Apocalypse and kill your own Scroll. DD 2-2
5. Reeplcheep: Nice mirror tech. You can't cast a spell for 3 turns after I play my Elemental, so you can't stop me from winning. WW 0-6
6. Wrath of Pie: Impatience kills me, since I deal myself 6 damage to cast spells, and you can Power Artifact Helm to kill the Elemental. LL 6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: We both cast spells, so neither of us can win. DD 2-2
8. jfb1337: My ramp lets you stop Elemental in time. You store infinite mana, cast Liliana, +1 1000 times, Blood Artist, then you cast Sutured Ghoul every turn. LL 6-0
9. alphastryk: My ramp lets you stop Elemental in time. You store infinite mana, cast Bootlegger's Stash, make 1000 treasures. When you cast Citadel you win in 2 turns, racing Elemental. LL 6-0
10. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Same as before. DD 2-2
11. Symbi: You don't have spells. WW 0-6
12. BirdsOfParadise: You don't have spells. WW 0-6
13. silkster: You can't cast Avoid Fate, so you can't win, but you can stop me. DD 2-2

34 points (8 loss, 10 draw, 8 win)

My other idea scored over 60 points, too bad.

[Symbi]

ReeplcheepVeldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
Casting wail ahead of time doesn’t hurt you LL 6-0



Objection! If you just don't play your Steppe, Dooey must use all three spells to make a threat. Then your elemental just outraces so this should be DD 2-2.
Edit: Ignore this. You can just burn storage counters preventing the elemental from being cast

[silkster]

There's 13 scenarios I have to go over and yours was the 13th. Sorry!

Certainly no need to be sorry. I see now that I sounded annoyed, but I'm really unsure of myself. I mean, a few weeks ago I misread an entire sentence into my own card and it changed my score from like 56 down to 24. And I've never even seen a physical copy of a card with Goad, so I was worried that maybe I was misreading that or something. This format by its very nature pushes everything right to the edge, and it's so easy to tip over that edge and everything breaks. My original version of this deck had a green depletion land, but I realized that I could slow myself down by a few turns against a deck that somehow has an instant-type or aura-type kill spell if I sub it out for one that makes other colours instead, but then I worried for a moment (this was at 18h59 CET) that I actually couldn't beat the Pemmin's Aura. Magic is hard.

[silkster]

ReeplcheepVeldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12

Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
Casting curses scroll before t12 doesn’t hurt you. LL 6-0

alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
Casting your cards doesn’t hurt but the earliest you can do it is t12. Is this our first WL? 3-3


Asthereal has to cast both Scroll an Apex to start doing damage, so if you hold the Hypergenesis until then, Asthereal can't win. DD

As I was doing the math for an incorrect line, I almost thought I was WL against Bolas' Citadel, and it was an exciting thought. I don't think this is WL though because alphastryk can play Bootlegger's Stash off the the Hypergensis and use it to get the Citadel out faster. Bad news is that we still have no WL. Good news for you is that you're LL, 6-0 here instead.


FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6

3. Dooey: You can steal my Tarnished Citadel to cast Warping Wail and win, while holding back Mindslaver to kill Desecration Elemental. LL 6-0


If you don't play the Tarnished Citadel, Dooey has to spend the Mindslaver to force it out in order to steal it and make the 1/1. But then doing that would lose to the Elemental. So neither of you does anything.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Oops all lands"

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23
Lage smash! 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
That's me on Goblin combo!

FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
Goblin stare 2-2

Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
Scroll smash! 6-0

Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
Impatient 6-0

RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13
Goblin smash :( 0-6

jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160
Ghoul smash! 6-0

alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
Bolas smash! 6-0

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
Titan smash! 6-0

Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
Edge smash! 6-0

BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23
Lage smash! 6-0

silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Total: 50 points

[dte]

7 W 6 D 13 L for 45/88. I expected a few no spell decks but not that many.

I think you overestimate elemental: against Dooey or Asthereal shouldn't it be DD?

[silkster]

GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
That's me on Goblin combo!

I didn't realize that you managed to do this while reading the lists. Well done!


Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
Impatient 6-0

Just being able to cast one non-artifact stops Impatience from killing you, so if Wrath plays Impatience, casting the Mob once wins you the game. So Wrath can't play Impatience. And after storing 152 counters, you'll be playing a spell every turn to win. WW

[Symbi]

GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
That's me on Goblin combo!

Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
Edge smash! 6-0

Total: 50 points

Objection! I must lose 1 life each time I activate Rath's edge. This means you only need to hit me once to stop me from winning, which you can do on T26 without disrupting yourself. This is much faster than my win on T80.

[silkster]

Objection! I must lose 1 life each time I activate Rath's edge. This means you only need to hit me once to stop me from winning, which you can do on T26 without disrupting yourself. This is much faster than my win on T80.

I just realized that you're channelling your inner Ace Attorney, and it makes these corrections hilarious. Perhaps I should do that.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Certainly no need to be sorry. I see now that I sounded annoyed, but I'm really unsure of myself. I mean, a few weeks ago I misread an entire sentence into my own card and it changed my score from like 56 down to 24. And I've never even seen a physical copy of a card with Goad, so I was worried that maybe I was misreading that or something. This format by its very nature pushes everything right to the edge, and it's so easy to tip over that edge and everything breaks. My original version of this deck had a green depletion land, but I realized that I could slow myself down by a few turns against a deck that somehow has an instant-type or aura-type kill spell if I sub it out for one that makes other colours instead, but then I worried for a moment (this was at 18h59 CET) that I actually couldn't beat the Pemmin's Aura. Magic is hard.

Oh my bad, I read some tone into your post that wasn't there.

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23 - WW
GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177 - LL
FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6 - WW
Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar - WW - Frenzied Fugue is clever in exploiting dte's choice of having to beat quad-Wastes.
Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power - DD
Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12 - DD
RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13 - DD
jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160 - LL
alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash - WW
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9 - DD
Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80 - DD
BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23 - WW
silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27 - DD - How exactly does this beat Pemmin's Aura enchanting the token?

4l12d = 24 points

I blundered badly by focusing on building around Impatience, it's not good when you have to play a second castable so Desecration Elemental is the better version of it.

[FTW]

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13

silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27 - DD - How exactly does this beat Pemmin's Aura enchanting the token?

Very good point. Avoid Fate can't counter Pemmin's Aura enchanting opponent's 0/1 token. It can use U: untap and 1: -1/+1 to block silk's attacker and tilt the race. It would only take 1-2 blocks to tilt the race in opponent's favor, then silk can't profitably attack without losing to counter attacks.

Is silk's deck illegal then?

[BirdsOfParadise]

I score the same as dte, whose idea last round was better than anything I could devise for this round.

Edit: I am on mobile with no computer access for several days. Can someone edit the spreadsheet in R4 so that I score 2 pt against Reep? Right now I’m incorrectly scoring 6. The flip side of the matchup is already entered correctly.

[dte]

Edit: I am on mobile with no computer access for several days. Can someone edit the spreadsheet in R4 so that I score 2 pt against Reep? Right now I’m incorrectly scoring 6. The flip side of the matchup is already entered correctly.

Done.

[silkster]

Very good point. Avoid Fate can't counter Pemmin's Aura enchanting opponent's 0/1 token. It can use U: untap and 1: -1/+1 to block silk's attacker and tilt the race. It would only take 1-2 blocks to tilt the race in opponent's favor, then silk can't profitably attack without losing to counter attacks.

Is silk's deck illegal then?

Yup, looks illegal to me. And here I was just talking about those times that I've royally screwed up various rounds. Add this to the list of "imagine extra sentences" and "submit banned card". Even more sadly, there's a simple swap that would have fixed it and changed no matches whatsoever. :(

[RoosterCocoa]

RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23
You have all lands. WW

GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
You can hold Charbelcher while you build up a lot of storage counters, then once you have enough to play all of your cards, activate Charbelcher enough to kill me, and a bit extra, you play all of your permanents and from the next turn onward start killing me with Charbelcher. If I ever try to play Standstill, you can take a turn off of using Charbelcher to instead cast Boggart Mob, and then go back to killing me next turn. LL

FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6
Neither of us plays our threats. DD

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
Unfortunately for me, Opalescence doesn't affect auras, so you can't win and I can't keep Standstill in play as long as you don't cast anything beforehand. DD

Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
You can hold Cursed Scroll to kill my Standstill until you have a lot of storage counters. You then cast Apex of Power and Cursed Scroll, and activate Cursed Scroll each turn, which outraces my 2/2. LL

Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12
Neither of us puts a threat into play. DD

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
If I play Opalescence, you win with your 4/4 Impatience, so I don't. If you play Impatience, I can play Black Lotus and sacrifice it so you can't cast Power Artifact, so I win. Therefore we do nothing. DD

jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160
You save up a bunch of mana and kill me in one turn. If I ever play Standstill, you can just play Blood Artist and then slowly kill me. LL

alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
You can first case a spell on turn 13. This means I race you OTP, but OTD if I play Standstill you win, so I hold it. You can then play Bootleggers' Stash, and build up treasures. I still lose if I play Standstill now, since you can easily cast Bolas' Citadel before I kill you. You eventually build up enough treasures to cast Bolas' Citadel and activate it, then activate it again the next turn, so I lose. WL

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
If you try to build up counters on Brain in a Jar I win since you damage yourself, so you just hold Brain in a Jar and I can't win. DD

Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
All lands. WW

BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23
All lands. WW

silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27
Illegal entry.

7W 10D 7L = 31

Looks like I should have waited for the all lands decks to get banned before playing Standstill.

[Symbi]

Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
2-0 I think the randomness rules mean I win (and therefore lose?) because you'll miss with the scroll.
6-2-2


The problem is that Asthereal made the minor mistake of playing a card with relevant text. If you play your ancient tomb, apocalypse can just force a draw.

[dte]

The problem is that Asthereal made the minor mistake of playing a card with relevant text. If you play your ancient tomb, apocalypse can just force a draw.

Yes, a minor mistake that makes it totally impossible to 6-0 anyone :/


Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar - WW - Frenzied Fugue is clever in exploiting dte's choice of having to beat quad-Wastes.


Frenzied fugue is indeed clever, but still castable. Shouldn't it be DD?

[Asthereal]

Yes, a minor mistake that makes it totally impossible to 6-0 anyone :/
Eh, you guys take this too seriously. :wink:

I wanted to play a cool card. That was a bad idea. Cool cards do cool things, which doesn't work in this format.

[dte]

Eh, you guys take this too seriously. :wink:


We take it extremely seriously, but still have a hard time managing to send legal decks, you are actually now in the minority that never sent an illegal deck ;)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Losing is incredibly serious business.

[silkster]

Having messed up this round by simply not playing intervene, I'd like to request that Life of the Party be banned anyway. We're already playing a little fast and loose with banned list, and it was a very good bad threat that would have scored 3.5 if I'd had the sense to notice that Pemmin's Aura is a buff as well as a kill spell. It would make me feel better and I also really don't want to metagame against it.

[FTW]

Frenzied fugue is indeed clever, but still castable. Shouldn't it be DD?

Frenzied Fugue can also steal opponent's land and empty all storage counters every turn, preventing opponent from casting any spells. So I think it will lead to a lot of DD.

It can also force Rath's Edge to sacrifice to itself or create Marit Lage from opponent's Dark Depths (after storing enough mana).

[FTW]

ReeplcheepVeldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12

Desecration elemental seemed very interesting from last round. Additionally, the test of endurance deck is even slower at casting its first spell so you can make the deck worse. I win if you can’t cast a spell before T12, which neither wastes nor test of endurance can do.


I noticed the same but approached it the opposite way. Even with Eladamri's Vineyard and Helm of Awakening, they can't cast Test of Endurance until T7! Most other decks would be sped up by that mana. But in this round, slowing down paid off more than ramping opponents.




Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
Casting wail ahead of time doesn’t hurt you LL 6-0


Doeey doesn't have colorless mana to cast Warping Wail. If you do nothing, Dooey must use Mindslaver + Frenzied Fugue to get access to your Saltcrusted Steppe just to cast Warping Wail. But then Dooey has no spells left and loses to Desecration Elemental. So you both do nothing. Same as my matchup. DD 2-2

Edit: I'm wrong. After taking your Steppe, you can't store mana to cast Hypergenesis so the 1/1 token will win. If you try to cast Hypergenesis first, Elemental still loses to any spell.

[jfb1337]

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt GT23
LL 6-0 You're faster

GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
WW 0-6 I'm faster

FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental GT6
WW 0-6 I can hold back my spells until I have enough mana to win in one turn

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
DD 2-2 If I ever have 6 counters on my land and you have 14, if I haven't played lilliana then you can mindslaver, make me play her + blood artist, have me -3 her, then on my turn take her with fugue and -1 her to death. If I play lilliana earlier, then you can take fugue her and ensure she's always under 3 loyalty on my turn, so I can't win. So we stare.

Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
LL 6-0 You can always hold up scroll to kill my blood artist at instant speed so I can't go off; and you can scroll me end of turn.

Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental GT12
WW 0-6 I can hold back my spells until I have enough mana to win in one turn

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13
WW 0-6 I can hold back my spells until I have enough mana to win in one turn

RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill GT13
WW 0-6 I can hold back my spells until I have enough mana to win in one turn

jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist GT160
That's me!

alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash
LL 6-0 You're faster

FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb GT9
WW 0-6 My blood artist prevents me from losing to biorythm

Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge GT:80
WW 0-6 Like dte said I can win on a turn where isle is phased out, and if you try damage me then win when you're at 1 life

BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes GT23
LL 6-0 You're faster

silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate, GT: 27
Illegal deck

Total: 6L 2D 16W = 20

[Reeplcheep]

I think you overestimate elemental: against Dooey or Asthereal shouldn't it be DD?

I got both of these wrong. Dooey is LL per FTW, I can’t ever suspend hypergenesis as dooey can empty my storage counters faster than I can charge them.

Asthereal is indeed DD because elemental outraces scroll even with a 4 turn head start.

[FTW]

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
DD 2-2 If I ever have 6 counters on my land and you have 14, if I haven't played lilliana then you can mindslaver, make me play her + blood artist, have me -3 her, then on my turn take her with fugue and -1 her to death. If I play lilliana earlier, then you can take fugue her and ensure she's always under 3 loyalty on my turn, so I can't win. So we stare.


This is even simpler. Frenzied Fugue on your Bottomless Vault means you can never store mana or get Ghoul out of your hand. DD 2-2

[dte]

So, we end up with these standings

round 5:
5,2 Symbi
4,2 dte (TO)
4,2 BirdsOfParadise
3,3 Reeplcheep
3,2 GoblinSmashmaster
2,7 FTW
2,6 RoosterCocoa
2,3 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
2,2 jfb1337
2,2 alphastryk
2,0 Wrath of Pie
1,0 Dooey
1,0 Asthereal

Overall season 13:
18,2 BirdsOfParadise
16,8 Symbi
15,7 Wrath of Pie
15,7 Silkster
14 RoosterCocoa
13,2 Reeplcheep
11,5 FTW
11 GoblinSmashmaster
10,9 jfb1337
10,8 dte (TO)
9,3 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
9,2 Dooey
8,6 alphastryk
5,9 Asthereal
2,9 Raketenudo

Bans:
city of brass: the possibility to respond to the trigger to deal the last damage slowly while dying on the stack is very strong. Miles better than what mana confluence can do.
Life of the party. Requested by Silkster, and seems indeed pretty strong.
Unbans: a lot of our banned cards do not looks scary anymore if we do have to beat 4xwastes.

Banned cards:
city of brass
Life of the Party

Unbanned cards:
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Flailing Manticore
rhystic cave
Saproling Cluster

Present banlist:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Heartless Summoning
Helix pinnacle
Sustaining Spirit
Wild Evocation
Test of Endurance
Aetherflux Reservoir
celestial convergence
rivalry
Naked singularity

Decks to beat for season 6:
Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar
Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power
Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13

I sent myself a valid deck, so round 6 is open, with a deadline Tuesday, Sept 20 at 19h00min00sec CEST, and the OP is updated ;)

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores for OMG Apocalypse is so OP:

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt DD-2
DISAGREEMENT: You have me beating you, but I don't think I can, as my clock is SLOW. My deck kills by turn 52 against the goldfish, and assuming you go down to 10 voluntarily, that reduces my clock to 32 turns, and you kill me by turn 25 at the latest, right? So I have to Apocalypse for the draws.
GoblinSmashmaster: Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher WW-0
This is much slower than my clock. You do one damage per, what, 8 turns? And you have to cast the Cauldron first. Nice.
FTW Tarnished Citadel, Eladamri's Vineyard, Helm of Awakening, Desecration Elemental DD-2
Ooh that's strong. Have to Apocalypse the house for draws.
Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar DD-2
Fugue steals my land and taps it for all its stored mana. And then it steals it every turn to tap it for its mana again. This happens before I get to Apocalypse mana, and from there I never get to Scroll activation mana, let alone the 10 mana I need to cast Apex in order to make Scroll work in the first place. But now you don't have colorless mana and can't Wail for the win, so we end in a stalemate of sorts.
Asthereal: Dwarven Hold, Cursed Scroll, Apocalypse, Apex of Power <-me
Reeplcheep]Veldt, Salt-Crusted Steppe, Hypergenesis, Desecration Elemental DD-2
Have to Apocalypse again. Or keep back Scroll to make you sac the guy, but in that case you don't play your guy.
Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact DD-2
Apocalypse for the rescue!
RoosterCocoa] Svyelunite Temple, Black Lotus, Opalescence, Standstill WW-0
I can kill Standstill and you can't stop the super slow scroll death.
jfb1337 Bottomless Vault Liliana, Untouched by Death Sutured Ghoul Blood Artist WW-0
Scroll kills you and the Artist and the world and I never really need Apocalypse.
alphastryk Molten Slagheap, Veldt, Bolas's Citadel, Bootleggers' Stash DD-2
That's dangerous. Let's blow up the house with Apocalypse.
FourDogsinaHorseSuit Brain in a Jar BiorythmPact of the TitanAncient Tomb DD-2
Also very dangerous. Let's Apocalypse some more.
Symbi: City of Brass, Teferi's Isle, Drownyard Temple, Rath's Edge WW-0
Does the 20th City of Brass trigger resolve after Rath's Edge's 20th activation resolves? I guess it does, as no one here is complaining about the deck. :tongue: If the deck works, I win easily, so I'll write that down. Magic rules are weird sometimes.
BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes DD-2
Same disagreement as against dte. I think this deck is faster than mine, so I have to Apocalypse.
silkster: Land Cap, Fungal Reaches, Life of the Party, Avoid Fate WW-0
Before you can kill me, I get touse Scroll to murder your wincon. From there I win easily.

Total: 14 points.

[dte]

dte (TO) dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, veldt DD-2
DISAGREEMENT: You have me beating you, but I don't think I can, as my clock is SLOW. My deck kills by turn 52 against the goldfish, and assuming you go down to 10 voluntarily, that reduces my clock to 32 turns, and you kill me by turn 25 at the latest, right? So I have to Apocalypse for the draws.
..
BirdsOfParadise dark depths, contested war zone, city of brass, Lava Tubes DD-2
Same disagreement as against dte. I think this deck is faster than mine, so I have to Apocalypse.


You are right on these, indeed you apocalypse for the draw.



Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar LL-6
DISAGREEMENT: I think I actually lose here. Fugue can steal my land and tap it for all its stored mana. And then it steals it every turn to tap it for its mana again. You can do this before I get to Apocalypse mana, and from there I never get to Scroll activation mana, let alone the 10 mana I need to cast Apex in order to make Scroll work in the first place. So you then have free reign to cast Wail for a 1/1 guy and kill me.


Her Dooey cannot win, as there is no way to get a colorless mana to cast wail. So you can play apocalypse to not die from your own cursed scroll.

[Asthereal]

You are right on these, indeed you apocalypse for the draw.
Cool.


Her Dooey cannot win, as there is no way to get a colorless mana to cast wail. So you can play apocalypse to not die from your own cursed scroll.
But then Dooey cannot beat the goldfish? Well, he can beat the Wastes deck, as he can steal a Wastes, which is a flaw in our rules, but it's the rules so sod it. :tongue:
Quick look at the DtBs gives several options to steal a land that makes colorless mana, so I guess the deck indeed works.

But... I can never cast Apocalypse, as I don't get to 5 mana before he steals my land and drains it.
Then again he also can't do anything with Mindslaver, as I don't have mana, so I can't kill myself. Actually, one Mindslaver activation doesn't kill me anyway.
In fact, Mindslaver is only useful to make me cast/play a thing and then steal it, but he can't, as he needs to steal my land and drain it.
So I guess this ends in two draws regardless?

I'll change my result post and so on.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

But then Dooey cannot beat the goldfish? Well, he can beat the Wastes deck, as he can steal a Wastes, which is a flaw in our rules, but it's the rules so sod it. :tongue:
Quick look at the DtBs gives several options to steal a land that makes colorless mana, so I guess the deck indeed works.


What if 4 wastes chooses to not play any wastes?

[dte]

What if 4 wastes chooses to not play any wastes?

That's what the minslaver is for ;)

[Asthereal]

That's what the minslaver is for ;)
Fairly elaborate, but it works. :cool:

[FTW]

Wrath of Pie - Saprazzan Skerry, Timberland Ruins, Impatience, Power Artifact GT: 13

Dooey Warping Wail, Mindslaver, Frenzied Fugue, Mercadian Bazaar - WW - Frenzied Fugue is clever in exploiting dte's choice of having to beat quad-Wastes.


How do you WW here?
If you cast Impatience, Dooey casts Frenzied Fugue on Impatience and you would lose. So you do nothing. 1 Mindslaver vs tapped lands can't force you to cast any spells.

[Wrath of Pie]

Unbanned cards:
Flailing Soldier
Flailing Ogre
Flailing Manticore

Oh good, storage lands are de facto banned. Seriously, don't unban these.

[Wrath of Pie]

How do you WW here?
If you cast Impatience, Dooey casts Frenzied Fugue on Impatience and you would lose. So you do nothing. 1 Mindslaver vs tapped lands can't force you to cast any spells.

Yeah, it's DD as it turns out.


The problem is that Asthereal made the minor mistake of playing a card with relevant text. If you play your ancient tomb, apocalypse can just force a draw.
I don't think playing Cursed Scroll is a minor mistake (it has relevant text even though you meant Apocalypse), it's fundamentally a major one because it has way too much flexibility in a format that punishes it. One of the most important characteristics of Backbuild is deciding how you want to lose, and cards like Cursed Scroll are not good at helping the losing mentality.

That's the issue with trying to go slow (Cursed Scroll is definitely not slow), it's not actively trying to be fragile so eventually that approach leads to undesirable wins.

[Reeplcheep]

Oh good, storage lands are de facto banned. Seriously, don't unban these.

I am probably missing something, but I am not seeing a way to beat quad wastes with the flailing creatures that doesn’t also beat storage lands. At least it isn’t completely obvious.

[jfb1337]

I have a potential idea to do so, but I can't find a way to make it beat any of the target decks

Getting it to 5 toughness could work but then it's likely to kill before storage lands actually charge enough to kill it.

[Reeplcheep]

Yes most of my initial ideas made it too fast. At least vs veldt + storage lands.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The pick is in

[Asthereal]

Next round isn't open yet, right?

[Reeplcheep]

I sent myself a valid deck, so round 6 is open, with a deadline Tuesday, Sept 20 at 19h00min00sec CEST, and the OP is updated ;)

[dte]

And 26h before deadline, there are only 6 entries in!

[Asthereal]

And 26h before deadline, there are only 6 entries in!
Perhaps others missed it as well. :smile:

[dte]

Perhaps others missed it as well. :smile:

I guess it's because our two posts were at more or less the same time. But deadline in 8h!

[Asthereal]

I guess it's because our two posts were at more or less the same time. But deadline in 8h!
I sent a deck just now. :smile:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I just want to know how many of you are using flailers anyways? Trying to trick us into thinking they're not good enough.

[Asthereal]

I just want to know how many of you are using flailers anyways? Trying to trick us into thinking they're not good enough.
Nah, I got somethin' waaay more powerful. Banned in legacy powerful, in fact. Probably way too good, but sod it.

Also, thanks dte for catching the error in my deck. The wrong land meant my deck would have been illegal. Fixed it now.
There goes my clean sheet streak of sending legal decks... :laugh:

[Reeplcheep]

Nah, I got somethin' waaay more powerful. Banned in legacy powerful, in fact. Probably way too good, but sod it.

Flashing in a beanstalk giant ?

[dte]

Three hours before deadline, and missing Silkster, alphastryk, and goblinsmash!!

[dte]

And here are the R6 decks!

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta
Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm
Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think I fucked up

[Reeplcheep]

What happened to my submission?

[silkster]

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
LL to charge land.

FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
LL to charge land.

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
WW against the limited mana deck.*

Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
WW against the limited mana deck.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
LL to charge land.

RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta
WW to limited mana deck. I considered playing a gain land and Mana Confluence or something similar to mimic City of Brass.

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
LL. Lava Tubes + Fungal reaches is able to make 5 mana on turn 10, and it takes me until turn 11 to win, so I can't win, and eventually lose to mana superiority.
It occurs to me that this deck has to potential to make for some of the most complicated matches I've ever seen, though I haven't though about any of your specific matches this round.

BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm
WW against limited mana.

Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
LL I assume, though I haven't actually figured out how you win yet.**

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
LL to charge land.

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
LL to charge land. Two counterspells to counter Cursed Scroll and Apocalypse to allow you to be as slow as you like is hilarious.

GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
LL to charge land.

Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage[/QUOTE]
That's me, having had no time, so submitting the thing that the comments told me to submit. The Lotus Bloom + Hypergenesis engine is something I almost played a round or two ago with Desecration Elemental and it would have been pretty good. So when I started thinking about a Flailing deck, I got to this one immediately. I looked for a while to see if there was a better choice than Maniacal Rage, but I needed at least +2 toughness and at least +2 power to live through 4x Wastes and to continue to deal damage through 4x Wastes, and they just don't print many pumping auras with drawbacks. Call of the Full Moon was about the only one I could find, and the extra power didn't matter against depletion land + storage land, but I was worried about decks that used painlands to add storage counters and didn't have time to do the math and I figured it would be very rare for someone to cast two spells in a turn anyway. Hopefully my deck is legal this time. I'm still a little worried after last week.


6W + 16L for 48 points. Much better than I was expecting.

*Which deck does this beat? It loses to Frenzied Fugue + Warping Wail. It loses to Cursed Scroll. Against the Impatience + Power Artifact deck, if you play out Impatience, then the opposing deck waits until the life totals are 2-2 before casting their own Impatience, and you can't live through your turn.

*Cast Ajani (T6), +2, +2, -9. Cast Codex Shredder, rebuy Ajani (T13). Cast Ajani +2 (T18), +2. Cast Grunt and Ajani -9 (T21). Then you can get one Grunt attack for 28 (T22).

[dte]

What happened to my submission?

À copy paste error, I added it now.

[Symbi]

1. dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480

If I cast my impatience, you wait until we are both at 6, then cast your creature, putting you down to 3. If I don't cast remove enchantments on my turn, I go to 4, then on your next turn you cast change of heart on my creature and swing. I am dead on board regardless of whether or not I block, even if I remove enchantments next turn. I can only deal 1 damage on the crackback, and casting change of heart avoids the impatience trigger, so I lose in this scenario. If I do cast remove enchantments, you swing on your next turn and I die in three turns maximum. I can deal at most 4 damage in those three turns, but I have to chump block to survive and you can stop 1 attack with change of heart, so I actually deal only 2 damage. If I don't cast impatience, you just execute your gameplan as usual. LL 6-0, 6 total.

2. FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600

If I cast impatience, you cast scholar and I am forced to remove enchantments. Then I die to your gameplan. If I don't cast impatience, I just die to your gameplan anyway. LL 6-0, 12 total.

3. Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13

That's me!

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans

You cast doubling cube to survive impatience and kill me with fall of the titans. LL 6-0, 18 total.

5. RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta

If I let impatience stick, you can ping me once, then kill me when I am at 1 life. So I just cast impatience and remove it next turn. This leaves you with a life total too low to win. DD 2-2, 20 total.

6. Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13

I epically flail to stop your manticore. LL 6-0, 26 total.

7. BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm

If I cast impatience first, you can just remove it. If you cast impatience first, I cast remove enchantments and you are forced to remove your own impatience. DD 2-2, 28 total.

8. Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor

Your loop involves continually casting spells. LL 6-0, 34 total.

9. jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel

Another loop of continual spellcasting. LL 6-0, 40 total.

10. Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin

Rod of Ruin too OP. LL 6-0, 46 total.

11. GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177

If I cast impatience, you cast charbelcher. If I hold impatience, you store enough mana to cast boggart mob every turn before casting charbelcher. LL 6-0, 52 total.

12. Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage

I continue to epically flail. LL 6-0, 58 total.

Edit: I copy-pasted this before Reeplcheep's deck was put up, but I think silkster is right and the deck is illegal anyway

[Reeplcheep]

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
The idea behind this list was A: I still don’t think copycat decks should be legal, but if you can’t beat them join them. And B: I couldn’t figure out a flailing deck, but thought if I have less than 4 mana sources I should be fine against those who did.

I beat the Wastes deck by casting impatience and waiting. I beat the OG impatience deck by casting aura barbs if both players have impatience out, netting myself a turn.
I will win against decks that have no non-enchantment castables before t13.

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
Buyback is very strong against impatience but requires a target. Varchild into change of heart the following turn should work once we both are at 4. LL 0-6

FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
Casting helm ahead of time is easy and doesn’t hurt you. LL 0-6

Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
The pseudo mirror. If I definitely can’t win since then you have more castables than me. I believe you can’t win either because aura barbs without an enchantment is too strong. DD 2-2

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
If I force your hand, you can cast doubling cube in time. This stops your wincon but I will kill myself.. LL 6-0.

RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta
I can’t beat tranquil cove, pass. If you try to win I can’t stop you from leaving me on an even life total and you on a odd one so I would die to my own impatience. LL 6-0

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
Only 3 mana sources. LL 6-0

BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm
Essentially the same as symbi. DD 2-2


Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
Very slow, impressive. You can cast codex shredder early and often, not to mention gain 1 life on turn 9 ish. LL 6-0

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
You have several cards you can cast before t13. LL 6-0

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
Envelop on Aura Barbs is kinda funny. I can’t race rod if it’s down and I can’t kill you before you cast it. LL 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
Casting charbeltcher or mob ahead of time isn’t an issue for you. LL 6-0

Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage
Only 3 mana sources. LL 6-0

0 W 4 D 20 L for 64/72

My best performance yet, only drawing the pseudo-mirror. I may have miscalculated some matchups though.

[Symbi]

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13

I beat the Wastes deck by casting impatience and waiting. I beat the OG impatience deck by casting aura barbs if both players have impatience out, netting myself a turn.



Yes, but how do you beat silkster's line?

[BirdsOfParadise]

Me: BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm

(*) dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
A tricky one to start out with. Let's assume I move first and play Impatience. Then you wait until the turn when you are at 6 life and I am at 6 life.
dte [At 6 life]: Play Varchild's War-Riders, going down to 3 life from Tarnished Citadel.
BoP [At 6 life]: Pass, go to 4 life from Impatience. (Scenario B: Play Aura Extraction this turn. Still at 6 life.)
dte: Create 1/1 token for BoP. Attack with Varchild's War-Riders. BoP at 1 life (in Scenario B, BoP at 3 life). Postcombat, cast Change of Heart on a creature to avoid losing life to Impatience. dte still at 3 life. (In Scenario B, don't cast anything; dte still at 3 life.)
BoP: Cast Aura Extraction or else die at EoT (in Scenario B, hang out at 3 life). Attack with a 1/1, so dte is at 2 life.
dte: Create two 1/1 tokens for BoP. Attack with Varchild's War-Riders. BoP is at 1, so BoP is dead. (Scenario B: BoP is at 3 and stays alive by blocking with one token. BoP is at 1.)
(Everything is Scenario B now. In Scenario B, Impatience is gone and dte hasn't used Change of Heart)
BoP: BoP has two tokens (three generated so far, one had to block). dte is at 2 life. Thus, dte must use Change of Heart, then BoP swings with one token. Now dte is at 1.
dte: Create three 1/1 tokens for BoP. Attack with Varchild's War-Riders for lethal.

Combat math note: One token blocking VWR is equivalent to infinity tokens blocking VWR because it has trample and rampage 1. Unblocked it deals 3 damage, blocked it deals 2.

This is what happens if BoP takes the lead by casting Impatience. If BoP takes the lead at a later time, this scenario plays out the same way except dte has more mana. If BoP never takes the lead, dte has infinite mana and can use VWR as a win condition when ready, and Impatience won't matter because dte has ininite mana to reuse Change of Heart.

dte, what do you think? I haven't actually done the math on whether you can buyback Change of Heart in this timeline but it doesn't matter, if my logic is correct. Please see if my logic is correct...
Edit: Nice, Symbi agrees ;)

LL (0 + 6 pt = 6 pt)

(*) FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
If I move first, you cast a spell and win. If I don't move, you amass infinite mana and can establish a clock. Aura Extraction won't stop your win.
LL (6 + 6 pt = 12 pt)

(*) Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
If I lead with Impatience, then you wait until we're both at 4 life.
Reep [at 4 life]: Aura Barbs --- both of us at 2
BoP [at 2 life]: Aura Extraction own Impatience or else die
Reep [at 2 life]: Cast Impatience
BoP [at 2 life]: die
So I can't win. You also can't win since I have Aura Extraction.
DD (12 + 2 pt) = 14 pt

(*) Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
DD (14 + 2 pt) = 16 pt

(*) FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
I can't move or you'll cast Cube and win. If I never move you win.
LL (16 + 6 pt) = 22 pt

(*) RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta
Like Symbi, I can draw but never win, and the draw is to play Impatience, let it zap you, then remove it on my turn.
DD (22 + 2 pt = 24 pt)

(*) Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
If I play Impatience, you play Flailing Manticore, winning the game (I won't have enough mana to both erase manticore and cast Aura Extraction).
If I don't play Impatience, you beat me the same way you beat 4x Wastes.
LL (24 + 6 = 30 pt)

(*) Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
That is a heck of a combo. So you... Cast Jotun Grunt, let it die, cast Codex Shredder, sacrifice it to return Jotun Grunt to your hand, cast Ajani, tick Ajani up twice, tick it down three times with -3 so it dies, THEN cast Jotun Grunt and get in one attack? Then it dies and you return to the beginning of the loop?
If I cast Impatience, you win by casting Codex Shredder. If I don't cast Impatience, you save infinite mana, gain a point of life if that's needed, and win.
LL (30 + 6 = 36 pt)

(*) jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
If I cast Impatience, you kill me by casting Reito Lantern. You save infinite mana and win.
LL (36 + 6 = 42 pt)

(*) Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
If I cast Impatience, you go Rod of Ruin and I lose. If I don't cast Impatience, you go Rod of Ruin and I lose.
LL (42 + 6 = 48 pt)

(*) GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
If I go Impatience, you go Charbelcher and I lose.
If I don't go Impatience, you can do infinite mana, establish Cauldron, win game whether or not I try Impatience.
LL (48 + 6 = 54 pt)

(*) Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage[/QUOTE]
If I go Impatience, you go Lotus Bloom. If I don't go Impatience, you go 5/5 manticore and there's no timing window when I can kill it with 3 mana.
LL (54 + 6 = 60 pt)

Total: 60 pt

(Same as Symbi, but Symbi didn't include Reep's deck b/c of copy+paste time delay and legality question.)

[Symbi]

Me: BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm

(*) Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
If I don't play Impatience, you save infinite mana. You tap Fungal Reaches to cast Manticore. I let your mana pool empty, then EoT, try to remove it by tapping 3 mana. You use Lava Tubes to generate mana from Fungal Reaches to save Manticore. I untap and kill manticore. I have only one land on board and it's a draw.
DD (24 + 2 = 26 pt)



Wait, can't 4 wastes force a draw with the same line?

[Wrath of Pie]

Wait, can't 4 wastes force a draw with the same line?
I somehow missed this, it probably does and that means my entry isn't legal.

EDIT: Saved by cleanup step technicalities.

[BirdsOfParadise]

No, I made a mistake.

Turns out that Wrath of Pie gives Manticore infinite P/T on the turn it comes into play. Then tapping 4x Wastes (or my 3 mana) at end of Wrath's turn does nothing.
Then tapping 4x Wastes (or my 3 mana) again while one of Wrath's lands is tapped during opponent's turn just forces Wrath to tap the other land and make infinite mana again.
Then Wrath untaps, still with infinite storage counters.

[jfb1337]

Why is not everyone's GT listed?

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
WW I'm faster

FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
WW I'm faster

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
WW I beat impatience

Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
WW I beat impatience

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
LL Fall of the titans is *way* too fast

RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta
LL You're faster

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
WW I can charge up mana faster than you to kill the flailer

BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm
WW I beat impatience

Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
Uhh... another Reito Lantern vs Codex Shredder matchup.
You can't win because whenever you have the Grunt in play with two cards in the graveyard, I can use lantern to tuck Ajani.
Since doing that completely stops you, you can't play Grunt at all when I have 3 counters on my land - tapped or not. And I can always charge up enough mana to make progress even through Shredder's mill while still holding that up.
Thus, WW.

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
That's me; submitting an unoriginal deck at the last minute since all of my other ideas couldn't beat the target decks

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
LL You're faster

GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
LL You're faster

Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage
WW I kill the flailer

Total: 8L = 24

BTW, I think cards from the target decks should be temp-banned for that round.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

IllegalDeckmaster Results for Round "Impatient"

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
Goblin smash :( 0-6

FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
Goblin smash :( 0-6

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
Titan smash! 6-0

RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
Goblin smash :( 0-6

BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
Grunt smash! 6-0

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
Rod smash! 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
That's me, forced to switch last minute :(

Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Total: 18 pts

[RoosterCocoa]

RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta GT43

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
The closer I get to winning the easier it is for you to win, but you start with 4 less life than me since you need to cast War-Riders to not lose. I think you always win if you cast War-Riders when you have 6 life and I have 7, as you can easily have 10 counters on Icatian Store by then, which allows you to cast War-Riders and cast Change of Heart with buyback 3 times, allowing you to get 3 attacks with War-Riders without me being able to attack you with tokens. I would need 5 turns to reduce you from 3 to 0 with Shivan Gorge, so you can kill me in this scenario. Since I can never take your life total low enough to hit this point, you have as much time as you want to build counters on Icatian Store, so eventually you can just kill me from 21. LL

FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
You can easily attack once to prevent me from winning, since it only costs 8 mana in total. Two attacks just costs you 3 more, so that is also very doable. This means if you immediately play Civilized Scholar and Helm of the Gods, and equip Helm, if I ever bring you to 2 life, I will have 3, and so you can get in 2 attacks before I can even draw the game. This means with the setup of Civilized Scholar with Helm equipped, you can store mana for as long as you want and then win, since if I try to win it just makes it easier for you. LL

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
This is the target deck I beat. WW

Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
You can't win, but you can deal 2 damage to me and the cast Remove Enchantments, which means I can't either. DD

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
If I try to win, it just makes it easier for you. LL

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
You store up counters until you can keep me from killing the Manticore and then kill me in one attack, then execute your plan. If I try to win, it just means you need fewer counters to kill in one hit. LL

BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm
You can't win, but can draw by dealing 2 damage to me with Impatience then casting Aura Extraction to remove it from the battlefield. DD

Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
Assuming the GT that silkster calculated is correct, you are faster than me. Furthermore, even though me reducing your life total reduces the number of counters you can put on the Grunt, it also reduces the amount of damage you need to deal so you always kill me in one hit. LL

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
I easily win before you can activate Citadel. WW

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
Rod of Ruin quickly reduces my life total to less than yours, so I can only wait for you to win. LL

GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
You deal 2 damage quickly enough that I can't even get a draw, so you win eventually. LL

Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage
I can't kill the Manticore with Maniacal Rage on it, so you easily kill me. LL

4W 4D 16L = 52

A very good score, which feels a bit strange since I had no ideas and ended up just going with a worse version of the best deck from last week.

[FTW]

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600

I submitted this because I got banned out of Naked Singularity+Broodstar last week (much better deck). This is a cheap imitation, and a risky choice after Flailing unban, but I wanted to play it before someone realized Reality Twist escaped the slow cumulative upkeep ban. I don't understand why this is legal but Sustaining Spirit needed a ban.

1. dte(TO): I'm slower and really can't win through Change of Heart + mana. LL 6-0
3. Reeplcheep: That was my target deck. WW 0-6
4. Symbi: That was my target deck. WW 0-6
5. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Way faster than me. LL 6-0
6. RoosterCocoa: Unlike the mighty Broodstar, I can deal 1 damage fast enough to disrupt you. WW 0-6
7. Wrath of Pie: Clever build. You store mana slower, so around turn 1000 I can kill Manticore while winning. WW 0-6
8. BirdsOfParadise: That was my target deck. WW 0-6
9. Dooey: You can sequence to go above 20 life, so I am even slower than 600 turns! LL 6-0
10. jfb1337: You don't self-damage so I'm slower. LL 6-0
11. Asthereal: Can't win through Mental Misstep!! LL 6-0
12. GoblinSmashmaster: Goblins smash! LL 6-0
13. Silkster: Hypergenesis is "may" so I can hold back Reality Twist and win. WW 0-6

36 points (12 loss, 0 draw, 12 win)

Mirroring the target deck was very strong this week, with most people picking Impatience as their deck to beat. Luckily GT600 lost to almost everything other than Flailing and Impatience.

[Wrath of Pie]

I submitted this because I got banned out of Naked Singularity+Broodstar last week (much better deck). This is a cheap imitation, and a risky choice after Flailing unban, but I wanted to play it before someone realized Reality Twist escaped the slow cumulative upkeep ban. I don't understand why this is legal but Sustaining Spirit needed a ban.

I really miss Asthereal as the organizer.

(Also, the flailers should never have been unbanned.)

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13

Exploiting slow storage lands to demonstrate that dte screwed up unbanning flailers. (silkster was yet again the best flailer, but I would be disappointed if that didn't happen.)

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480 - LL
FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600 - LL
Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13 - WW
Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13 - WW
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans - LL - Doubling Cube is hilarious.
RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta - WW
BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm - WW
Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor - LL
jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel - LL
Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin - LL
GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177 - LL
Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage - WW - Maniacal Rage is definitely on-flavor.

14l = 42 points

Impatience will be gone at least.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
WW

FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
WW

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
WW

Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
WW

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
Look at this idiot who had to be told that Supression Field would not only turn off flailers but also turn off storage lands so he switched to a deck he didn't understand could win in like half the time he planned for. Only needs 15 mana, but somehow when I built it I thought I needed like 45. SO shame on me for second guessing: Like half of you used the Original storage lands anyways which don't care about Suppression Field, and wouldn't have been able to beat any of the impatience decks.

RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta
WW

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
DD on T13 when you cast Phage I only have 12 counters. That's 11+1 Red Dragon Mana. 2 for Cube (9+1) 3 to activate (6+1) which isn't enough to kill you. (13+1. Surge-cast Fall for 12. You live)

BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm
Another Impatience deck another deck I targeted

Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
WW My math says you need 16 turns. That's 1 to untap, 13 to store, You need to kill Ajani twice, don't you?

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
WW

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
WW

GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
WW

Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage[/QUOTE]
WW This is actually closer than I thought. If you had one more turn you'd have killed me before I could pay to kill the Manticore.

2 points. Take THAT illegal deck submitters!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans - LL - Doubling Cube is hilarious.


Double hilarious: I think it can't beat you "powering" out Phage.

[FTW]

IllegalDeckmaster Results for Round "Impatient"
Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
No GT??

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
No GT??

+6 pts vs Dooey
+0 pts vs jfb1337

By my math Dooey has GT21

T10 Cast Jotun Grunt & Codex Shredder [5 storage left]
T11 Grunt dies. Sacrifice Shredder to return Grunt [0 storage]
...
T17 6 storage counters
T18 Cast Ajani +2 [1 storage, 7 loyalty]
T19 +2 [2 storage, 9 loyalty]
T20 Cast Jotun Grunt. -9: +20 counters
T21 Pay upkeep returning Shredder & Ajani. Attack with 24/24.

Silk's line does not work because Ajani cannot -9 without a creature to target. Due to all the targeting requirements the order must be Grunt -> Shredder returning Grunt -> Ajani -> Grunt & -9 Ajani -> Grunt returns Shredder & Ajani. This way is faster anyway. Lethal on T21 as long as Dooey is at 16 life or higher.


jfb1337 has GT225
Needs 21 Treasures: 3 to cast Bolas + 18 for 2 Bolas activations (also sacrificing Bolas & Reito).
11 turns each for the first 20 Treasures (store 10 mana, then cast Brass Bounty & put on bottom)
7+2+3=12 more red mana to store to cast Reito, Bolas, and the last Treasure. 1 turn casting them all & 1st Bolas activation. 1 turn for 2nd Bolas activation. 1 turn playing tapped land.
20*11 + 12 + 3 = 225

[Symbi]

Double hilarious: I think it can't beat you "powering" out Phage.

Although if you look at the manabase more closely, Phage the Untouchable actually turns out to be Phage the Uncastable.

[dte]

Exploiting slow storage lands to demonstrate that dte screwed up

I really miss Asthereal as the organizer.

He was definitely doing a better job, but I would think that was uncalled for.



dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
Me, taking the wrong deck :/ I should have kept the one that was losing to impatience.

FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600
0-6, you are better than me at playing slow.

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
0-6, I designed to beat impatience.

Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
0-6, idem

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans
6-0, losing to this.
6

RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta
0-6, I beat that.
6

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13
0-6.
6

BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm
0-6

Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
2-2. I cannot beat Ajani, neither can you beat change of heart
8

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel
6-0. You can use riders tokens to kill raiders.
14

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin
6-0. Mental misstep >> weathercock.
20

GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177
6-0. Every damage you deal me make me lose 4 turns to get an additional change of heart.
26

Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage
0-6. I can kill that manticore.


Impatience will be gone at least.

Why? It still as bad a card as it was. It scored well this round only because it is bad enough that it ended up the target deck, alongside two decks that were near unbeatable. So everyone played to beat it and copycating it turned out to be a good choice.
That was definitely partly a mistake of mine, I should have proposed other decks as target decks. Still, some interesting choices.


I submitted this because I got banned out of Naked Singularity+Broodstar last week (much better deck). This is a cheap imitation, and a risky choice after Flailing unban, but I wanted to play it before someone realized Reality Twist escaped the slow cumulative upkeep ban. I don't understand why this is legal but Sustaining Spirit needed a ban.

The reasoning is that similarity / broodstar and spirit / pump are 2-cards, while twist requires three and is thus harder to play alongside a trump card. Maybe it is a flawed logic, but here it is.


Why is not everyone's GT listed?
Mostly because I receive submissions without it, or that it isn't on the same line as the deck.

Ideally, there should be a line in your PM to me with:
username, card1withtags, card2withtags, card3withtags, card4withtags, GTxxx

Like this I just copy paste this line.

[Dooey]

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480

I am faster than you. LL, 0 points.

FTW, Saprazzan Cove, Reality Twist, Helm of the Gods, Civilized Scholar, GT 600

I am faster than you. LL, 0 points.

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13

I cast spells. LL, 0 points.

Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13

I cast spells. LL, 0 points.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Crucible of the Spirit Dragon Mage-Ring Network Doubling Cube Fall of the Titans

Seems like you are faster than me. WW, 6 points.

RoosterCocoa, Barbarian Ring, Shivan Gorge, Tranquil Cove, River Delta

I am faster than you. LL, 0 points.

Wrath of Pie, Lava Tubes, Fungal Reaches, Flailing Manticore, Phage the Untouchable, GT: 13

I eventually make enough mana to kill manticore. LL, 0 points

BirdsOfParadise, Aura Extraction, Bog Wreckage, Impatience, Remote Farm

I cast spells. LL, 0 points.

Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor

It me. 0 pointd.

jfb1337, Dwarven Hold, Reito Lantern, Brass's Bounty, Bolas's Citadel

Reito Lantern means I can't keep grunt alive and never attack. WW, 6 points

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin

Mental misstep counters codex shredder. WW, 6 points.

GoblinSmashmaster, Bottomless Vault, The Cauldron of Eternity, Boggart Mob, Goblin Charbelcher GT177

I am faster than you. LL, 0 points.

Silkster, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Flailing Manticore, Maniacal Rage

I eventually make enough mana to kill manticore. LL, 0 points

Seems like 18 total.

[dte]

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480

I am faster than you. LL, 0 points.

...

Asthereal, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep, Envelop, Rod of Ruin

Mental misstep counters codex shredder. WW, 6 points.


Against me, I do not think you can beat change of heart, so 2-2?
On the other hand, I do think that you beat Asthereal 0-6, as you do not need codex to resolve, you can just attack with a big jotun (and anyway jotun recycle your codex).

[Dooey]

Dooey, Jötun Grunt, Codex Shredder, Icatian Store, Ajani, Wise Counselor
2-2. I cannot beat Ajani, neither can you beat change of heart
8



Wow, I forget change of heart can fog my attacks too. I guess I have 20 points.

[Dooey]

you do not need codex to resolve

Right. I actually missed a line in my own deck. Oops. Yeah this is right.

[Symbi]

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
WW against the limited mana deck.*

*Which deck does this beat? It loses to Frenzied Fugue + Warping Wail. It loses to Cursed Scroll. Against the Impatience + Power Artifact deck, if you play out Impatience, then the opposing deck waits until the life totals are 2-2 before casting their own Impatience, and you can't live through your turn.



This question still has not been answered.

[Reeplcheep]

This question still has not been answered.

It does appear my goldfish was not as well trained as silkster’s and my deck is illegal.

[silkster]

It does appear my goldfish was not as well trained as silkster’s and my deck is illegal. I really love this phrasing. And if only I'd had a better trained goldfish last round!

This round has certainly had its share of chaos, sometimes banning the targets decks or not, sometimes being whole decks and sometimes just strategies, and the inclusion of 4x Wastes. I appreciate the ambition to have a backbuild season and the difficulties that arise. I've enjoyed these rounds with the exception of my own unfortunate mistake.

The plan is for this season to be 8 rounds and for me to host the next season. So we're almost done here, though I can't guarantee how smoothly I'll be able to handle things.

I'm also still looking for what the season should be. My leading candidates are WUBRG and a Storm Season callback (you must lose to a given deck, probably arbitrarily decided at first, and then possibly taking the lowest performing deck(s) as target decks in future rounds).

[Asthereal]

Mostly because I receive submissions without it, or that it isn't on the same line as the deck.

Ideally, there should be a line in your PM to me with:
username, card1withtags, card2withtags, card3withtags, card4withtags, GTxxx
I completely missed the GT thing. Perhaps you decided upon that when I was on holiday.
So I never added it to my decks.
Can someone explain it, or link a post where it's explained what it is exactly?



dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
Me, taking the wrong deck :/ I should have kept the one that was losing to impatience.
This deck is sick, by the way. You have to tick up the storage land for like a hundred Change of Hearts with buyback before you can cast the War-Riders. Very crafty, regardless of how unhappy you are with it. :smile:

[dte]

I'm also still looking for what the season should be. My leading candidates are WUBRG and a Storm Season callback (you must lose to a given deck, probably arbitrarily decided at first, and then possibly taking the lowest performing deck(s) as target decks in future rounds).

WURBG looks quite different to everything we played, so sounds pretty cool.
I had thoughts of an alternating backbuild/callback season (have to beat the target deck and lose one round, then be beaten by the target and win the next).


This round has certainly had its share of chaos, sometimes banning the targets decks or not, sometimes being whole decks and sometimes just strategies, and the inclusion of 4x Wastes. I appreciate the ambition to have a backbuild season and the difficulties that arise. I've enjoyed these rounds with the exception of my own unfortunate mistake

Great you like it! I hope the last two rounds will be less messy. I should have kept automatic temporary ban of all cards in target decks, maybe I got too annoyed of my own city of brass mistake.
But the season was definitely harder to organize than I thought it would be!
Congrats to Asthereal to make it looks smooth and easy ;)
Speak of the devil..


I completely missed the GT thing. Perhaps you decided upon that when I was on holiday.
So I never added it to my decks.
Can someone explain it, or link a post where it's explained what it is exactly?

It is GT for "goldfish turn", the turn at which you win vs 4 x wastes.
It is in the OP, and was here from the beginning, but was not used much when no one was building decks that could actually beat a goldfish :/
Now that we have to,


This deck is sick, by the way. You have to tick up the storage land for like a hundred Change of Hearts with buyback before you can cast the War-Riders. Very crafty, regardless of how unhappy you are with it. :smile:

Thanks! I thought it cool too, and that was the trouble: then I wanted to play it, rather than the better deck :/

[BirdsOfParadise]

I was also impressed at the Varchild’s War-Riders deck! I couldn’t figure out a way to make that card work. Change of Heart is clever.

[dte]

So, with the results in we can start R7!

For R6:
5,3 Symbi
5,3 BirdsOfParadise
4,7 RoosterCocoa
4,4 silkster
3,8 Wrath of Pie
3,3 FTW
2,4 dte (TO)
2,2 jfb1337
1,6 GoblinSmashmaster
1,6 Dooey
0,5 Asthereal
0,0 Reeplcheep
0,0 FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Overall season:
23,1 BirdsOfParadise
22,1 Symbi
20,1 Silkster
19,5 Wrath of Pie
18,7 RoosterCocoa
14,8 FTW
13,2 Reeplcheep
13,1 jfb1337
12,8 dte (TO)
12,6 GoblinSmashmaster
10,8 Dooey
9,3 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
8,6 alphastryk
6,6 Asthereal
2,9 Raketenudo

Bans: no permanent change. This round was a bit of a mess because only one of the target decks was actually beatable, and that it was possible to copycat it. Sorry, that's on me!
But temporary ban on the 16 cards of the target decks (so they will be legal on R8).

Decks to beat for R7:
Bottomless Vault , The Cauldron of Eternity , Boggart Mob , Goblin Charbelcher
Joten Grunt , Codex Shredder , Icatian Store , Ajani, Wise Counciler
Sapazzan Cove , Mental Misstep , Envelop , Rod of Ruin
Doubling CUbe , Crucible of the Spirit Dragon , Mage-Ring Network , Fall of the titans


I submitted a deck, so R7 is open! OP has been updated.

On the other hand, the deadline is not next Tuesday, but Tuesday October 4th at 19h CEST.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Wait are the flailers legal again?

[BirdsOfParadise]

For R6:
5,3 Symbi
5,3 BirdsOfParadise
4,7 RoosterCocoa
4,4 silkster
3,8 Wrath of Pie
3,3 FTW
2,4 dte (TO)
2,2 jfb1337
1,6 GoblinSmashmaster
1,6 Dooey
0,5 Asthereal
0,0 Reeplcheep
0,0 FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Overall season:
23,1 BirdsOfParadise
22,1 Symbi
20,1 Silkster
19,5 Wrath of Pie
18,7 RoosterCocoa
14,8 FTW
13,2 Reeplcheep
13,1 jfb1337
12,8 dte (TO)
12,6 GoblinSmashmaster
10,8 Dooey
9,3 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
8,6 alphastryk
6,6 Asthereal
2,9 Raketenudo

Question: At the end of R5 (see post #403 on p. 21), I had 18.2 and Symbi had 16.8, so I was leading by 1.4. In R6, Symbi and I gained equal points, but the lead has narrowed to 1.0. How can that be?

Sometimes an error gets corrected in a spreadsheet and then numbers stored in other locations (for example in post #403) don’t get updated because that would be a lot of trouble. That is, maybe I was only ever up by 1.4 because of an error. Could that have happened?

Edit: Okay, sounds good, dte. I see now that Asthereal pointed out an error in the BoP/dte scores for R5 after you posted the standings for R5. Four points divided by twelve players would account for the discrepancy, with some rounding error. Case closed.

[dte]

Question: At the end of R5 (see post #403 on p. 21), I had 18.2 and Symbi had 16.8, so I was leading by 1.4. In R6, Symbi and I gained equal points, but the lead has narrowed to 1.0. How can that be?

I realize that sometimes an error gets corrected in a spreadsheet and then numbers that were posted in the past don’t get updated because that would be a lot of work... maybe that’s what happened?

Maybe, I report the numbers from the spreadsheet at the moment I post, I don't correct the standings post afterwards.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Wait are the flailers legal again?
That would follow from what dte posted, but it sure seems hard to run them against four target decks that all use storage lands.

[silkster]

Question: At the end of R5 (see post #403 on p. 21), I had 18.2 and Symbi had 16.8, so I was leading by 1.4. In R6, Symbi and I gained equal points, but the lead has narrowed to 1.0. How can that be?
There was a round when there were some disqualifications, but the denominators didn't get updated, so all the points were artificially low. I went back and changed them, but that happened after the round report was published. Depending on how long ago you were looking from, maybe it was that.


Wait are the flailers legal again?
It looks like they are legal. dte was unafraid of flailers with the added requirement of beating 4x Wastes, which was debatable. Now every deck-to-beat has a storage land, so I'm guessing that he's considering them truly unplayable unless someone comes up with brilliant new tech, something which he probably figures should be rewarded anyway. It seems reasonable to me.

It seems that the banned list in the google sheet hasn't been updated. Can we get a confirmation that the banned list is this list from post 2 on page 1 plus all cards in all target decks?

Present banlist:
Rainbow Vale
Lotus Petal
Forbidden Orchard
Heartless Summoning
Helix pinnacle
Sustaining Spirit
Wild Evocation
Test of Endurance
Aetherflux Reservoir
celestial convergence
rivalry
Naked singularity

[BirdsOfParadise]

Decks to beat for R7:
Bottomless Vault , The Cauldron of Eternity , Boggart Mob , Goblin Charbelcher
Joten Grunt , Codex Shredder , Icatian Store , Ajani, Wise Counciler
Sapazzan Cove , Mental Misstep , Envelop , Rod of Ruin
Doubling CUbe , Crucible of the Spirit Dragon , Mage-Ring Network , Fireball

Fireball is replacing Fall of the Titans in the target deck deriving from FourDogs’ deck?

Silkster, that list is definitely missing City of Brass and Life of the Party, which were banned after R5.

[FTW]

dte(TO), change of heart, tarnished citadel, icatian store, Varchild's war-riders, GT480
Me, taking the wrong deck :/ I should have kept the one that was losing to impatience.

Reeplcheep, Saprazzan Skerry, Mirrodin’s Core, Impatience, Aura Barbs GT: 13
0-6, I designed to beat impatience.
Symbi, Timberland Ruins, Dwarven Ruins, Impatience, Remove Enchantments, GT:13
0-6, idem

How do you beat Impatience?
You can't cast Change of Heart. No legal target.
Varchild's War-Riders costs 3 life. If you don't pay the upkeep, you lose to Impatience first. If you pay some upkeeps and attack, opponent will get more 1/1s than you can handle with Change of Heart.

[BirdsOfParadise]

If Impatience deck plays Impatience, dte’s deck waits until the turn when it’s at 6 life.
dte deck [6 life]: Cast War-Riders, drop to 3 life
Impatience deck [6 life]: Drop to 4 life
dte deck [3 life]: One token created. Attack. Impatience deck doesn’t block because 3 damage equals 2 damage when you’re at 4 life and all damage is in increments of 2 or 3. Impatience at 1 life from combat damage, dte deck at 1 life from Impatience.
Impatience deck [1 life]: Wants to attack, but dte casts Change of Heart. Pass, die from Impatience.

If Impatience deck doesn’t play Impatience, dte has infinite mana to use.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How do you beat Impatience?
You can't cast Change of Heart. No legal target.
Varchild's War-Riders costs 3 life. If you don't pay the upkeep, you lose to Impatience first. If you pay some upkeeps and attack, opponent will get more 1/1s than you can handle with Change of Heart.

When both players are at 4 DTE casts War Riders and goes to 1.
Impatience untaps and goes to 2.
DTE attacks for 3, and there is no blocking pattern to survive.

[dte]

I updated the second post with the banned cards, snd corrected the fireball/ fall of the titans thingy - no clue how that one happened!

And in my calculations, I was saving life by casting change of heart twice on riders after combat. But from the two posts above, it seemed that there were a few lines :)

[Asthereal]

It is GT for "goldfish turn", the turn at which you win vs 4 x wastes.
It is in the OP, and was here from the beginning, but was not used much when no one was building decks that could actually beat a goldfish :/
Ah right. I missed that indeed. I'll try to add it to my decks.



Thanks! I thought it cool too, and that was the trouble: then I wanted to play it, rather than the better deck :/
Ah yes, the danger of cool things. It's very real in MtG.
In chess too, by the way. It's one of the rules I teach.


I'll check my scores briefly tomorrow. I think they're mostly correct, but perhaps something slipped through.

[dte]

It looks like they are legal. dte was unafraid of flailers with the added requirement of beating 4x Wastes, which was debatable. Now every deck-to-beat has a storage land, so I'm guessing that he's considering them truly unplayable unless someone comes up with brilliant new tech, something which he probably figures should be rewarded anyway. It seems reasonable to me.

Exactly. Also, I do think they could be a healthy predator of storage land.deck. If they almost automatically lose to any deck that can make only 4 manas or less, I do not see that as overpowered, and we do not want to see only storage land decks.
My vision of the metagame would then be that there are at least these generic archetypes among a few unclassable:
Impatience-like (all that deals damage to everyone over the course of 10-30 turns, just 1-2 more damage to opponent)
slow (storage land + cumulative upkeep or very expensive loop)
painful big manabase
flailers.

Impatience beats (0-6) flailers, drawish vs slow, lose to painful.
slow beats painful, drawish vs impatience-like, lose to flailers
painful beats impatience, drawish vs flailers, lose to slow
flailers beats slow, drawish vs painful manabase, lose to impatience.

It is very coarse-grained, but seems equilibrated to me.


It seems that the banned list in the google sheet hasn't been updated. Can we get a confirmation that the banned list is this list from post 2 on page 1 plus all cards in all target decks?

Confirmed. And I also added the line in post 2 saying that any card in a target deck is banned for the current round.



Ah yes, the danger of cool things. It's very real in MtG.
In chess too, by the way. It's one of the rules I teach.

Was also one of my main problems in go for a long time.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

A meta in a community game where you're trying to breed creativity seems pretty dull, TBH.
I can play rock paper scissors anywhere.

[Asthereal]

My scores are correct. Deck might be close in terms of deadline though.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

My scores are corrent. Deck might be close in terms of deadline though.

Good news!


On the other hand, the deadline is not next Tuesday, but Tuesday October 4th at 19h CEST.

[Asthereal]

Good news!
That is good news indeed. Thanks for pointing it out! :smile:

[silkster]

In our week off just before the end of the season, it's probably a good time to vote on next season. Here are the options I have in mind, which are intended to make new cards and new strategies playable. Feel free to vote for one or to rank as many as you like.

Option 1, WUBRG: Each player starts with :w::u::b::r::g: in their mana pool that doesn't empty.
Along with
a: Ban all cards from all decks scoring more than 3 round points.
b: Ban all cards from the top 3 decks (including those tied for third).
c: Selective bans to remove dominant strategies at my discretion to keep the banlist small.

Option 2, "Frontbuild": Each round has a target deck which you must go LL against. I chose the name to mirror backbuild as it's a similar legality requirement.
This has slightly more complicated subchoices.
A: Keep the same target deck for the whole league with ban strategy a, b, or c.
B: Use the lowest scoring legal deck from the previous round and apply ban strategy a, b, cor d: no bans.
C: Have a premade list of decks to LL against and no bans. (Possibly just one from each person who would like to submit one; we have about the right number of people.)

Season Length: You can just suggest a number, but I'm thinking either short≈8 or long≈12.

For WUBRG, I like 1a the best. For Frontbuild, I like each of 2Aa, 2Bd, and 2C. But of course, I'm okay with any of the things I'm suggesting. And whichever option isn't chosen for season 14 will likely be chosen for season 16.

[Dooey]

I've played this game before where the ban list is every card used by anyone in any previous round. Best with a short season since the ban list grows really really fast, but it definitely shakes up the meta.

[Reeplcheep]

My favourite would be 2Bd with the additional rider of banning cards in the current deck to get beaten by. With only 1 target deck copycats would be a large problem.

[dte]

1c, but all are good to me!

[jfb1337]

I like 2Ba, 2Bd (with temp bans on target decks; and possibly more than one target deck), and 1a

[BirdsOfParadise]

Is the WUBRG idea still Backbuild?

[silkster]

Is the WUBRG idea still Backbuild?

No, it's regular. We've played one round of it once before in a deviant legacy season. Here's the link: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?32902-4-Card-Blind&p=1091654&viewfull=1#post1091654

I also didn't say it explicitly, but these are with the largest card pool possible, so vintage.

I once played a season of vintage banathon where every single card that got played was banned, except for Black Lotus for some reason. It quickly turned into Lotus+Lotus+threat. I'd also be happy to ban every card that gets played for about 8 rounds.

I didn't originally mention banning the target deck because I imagined most of them having cards with functional reprints, like Grizzly Bears or Wind Drake. It's also really hard to copy one of these decks while also going LL to it, though maybe that's just my limited experience of it. I'm on board to temp ban the target deck though.

I also thought about having multiple target decks, though I like this idea less. It feels it makes guessing which deck others are targeting into an important part of the brewing process, and that feels like added randomness that's unnecessary.

[Reeplcheep]

I also didn't say it explicitly, but these are with the largest card pool possible, so vintage.

I didn't originally mention banning the target deck because I imagined most of them having cards with functional reprints, like Grizzly Bears or Wind Drake. It's also really hard to copy one of these decks while also going LL to it, though maybe that's just my limited experience of it. I'm on board to temp ban the target deck though.

I also thought about having multiple target decks, though I like this idea less. It feels it makes guessing which deck others are targeting into an important part of the brewing process, and that feels like added randomness that's unnecessary.

Is the new unfinity shit banned? Stickers cards will be a pain to work out and several of the attractions include dexterity elements.

I was thinking after round 1, in the 2B option you are likely to have decks with unique cards (since they were player submitted)

I agree with the last point

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Are the new unfinity shit banned? Stickers cards will be a pain to work out and several of the attractions include dexterity elements.

I was thinking after round 1, in the 2B option you are likely to have decks with unique cards (since they were player submitted)

I agree with the last point

All the manual dexterity unfinity cards are not vintage legal. If attractions are cards like venture into the dungeon was I assume an attraction deck will behave like venture did.

[Reeplcheep]

All the manual dexterity unfinity cards are not vintage legal. If attractions are cards like venture into the dungeon was I assume an attraction deck will behave like venture did.

The problem is the dexterity shit is on the “dungeon rooms” not the actual cards.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The problem is the dexterity shit is on the “dungeon rooms” not the actual cards.

Those attractions though aren't legal either?
But also, randomness always backfires so you'd never visit an attraction anyways.

[jfb1337]

Stickers and attractions are both "extra decks" that would go beyond 4 cards, making them not legal (in contrast to dungeons, which always access the same "cards" every time, these mechanics require deckbuilding decisions).

All cards with an acorn stamp (including all the dexterity ones) aren't vintage legal so wouldn't be legal.
The other cards should be fine.

[silkster]

Is the new unfinity shit banned?

I thought that if want vintage legal. Seeing that it is, me instinct is that it probably makes the most sense to ban it. In theory, it could be gone through card by card, but I don't think that's worth the effort and the confusion it would produce. So "vintage minus Unfinity" will most likely be the format.

Oh, I now see jfb1337's post about Acorn stamp versus not Acorn stamp. That would work too.

Scryfall tells me that Unfinity has 344 of which 139 are vintage legal. (It also says that 126 are not vintage legal, but I haven't figured out what the rest are). Oh, and these legal ones seem to include stickers. So maybe best not to include Unfinity at all. Or maybe you just don't get stickers. After looking through the list of vintage-legal Unfinity cards, they almost all mention stickers, attractions, or dice. It doesn't seem useful to include any of them, so I'm again leaning towards simply banning Unfinity outright.

[Asthereal]

Option 1, WUBRG: Each player starts with :w::u::b::r::g: in their mana pool that doesn't empty.
Along with
a: Ban all cards from all decks scoring more than 3 round points.
b: Ban all cards from the top 3 decks (including those tied for third).
c: Selective bans to remove dominant strategies at my discretion to keep the banlist small.

I like this. We could indeed do a full season of this. With proper bannathon mechanics, it should stay interesting for quite a while.
Banning every deck that scores more than 3 points might be a lot though, so perhaps 3.5?



Option 2, "Frontbuild": Each round has a target deck which you must go LL against. I chose the name to mirror backbuild as it's a similar legality requirement.
This has slightly more complicated subchoices.
A: Keep the same target deck for the whole league with ban strategy a, b, or c.
B: Use the lowest scoring legal deck from the previous round and apply ban strategy a, b, cor d: no bans.
C: Have a premade list of decks to LL against and no bans. (Possibly just one from each person who would like to submit one; we have about the right number of people.)

Also sounds like fun. We could perhaps use a randomizer to determine which legal deck we'll use as next round's deck to lose to. Using the worst deck might get weird.
But option C seems fun too. I have no clear preference. Perhaps we could do both ideas in succession.

[FTW]

Option 1, WUBRG: Each player starts with :w::u::b::r::g: in their mana pool that doesn't empty.
Along with
a: Ban all cards from all decks scoring more than 3 round points.
b: Ban all cards from the top 3 decks (including those tied for third).
c: Selective bans to remove dominant strategies at my discretion to keep the banlist small.

I like 1a or 1b. There are a lot of broken strategies. We'll see more variety if we ban the dominant ones quickly.

I understand people don't like long banlists, but I have doubts about the ability for "discretion" to be applied fairly and consistently in a way that isn't biased towards the type of decks the TO prefers.

Edit: Asthereal used to maintain the list in alphabetical order. That made it easy to check legality no matter how long the list. You just scroll down and check your 4 cards in alphabetical order, rather than having to read through every card name. It took me under 30 seconds, even when we have very long banlists from bannathons. If it's taking a long time to check if cards are legal, or you are not sure even after checking the list, perhaps that could be solved by sharing strategies for checking the list or by adding functionality to the spreadsheet.

[Phasmoid]

Option 1, WUBRG: Each player starts with :w::u::b::r::g: in their mana pool that doesn't empty.
Along with
a: Ban all cards from all decks scoring more than 3 round points.
b: Ban all cards from the top 3 decks (including those tied for third).
c: ​ [not relevant to my reply]



Does that mana just not empty normally, or
is it also immune to things like Mana Short?
What about Kruphix, God of Horizons?


For ban-option a, note that

even with no draws, it's still possible for there to
be no decks scoring more than 3 round points
and
due to draws, it's possible for there to be
no decks scoring more than 2 round points

, ​ ​ ​ so there should be a fallback in case ​ a ​ would ban nothing,
or maybe even if it would just ban too little.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It should be like a Refellos, or Omnath.

[RoosterCocoa]

I like 2 A the best with ban strategy a, since as long as the chosen deck to beat doesn't have too easy of a way to lose to it (it doesn't include something like null rod) I feel it would involve a lot of creativity.

[silkster]

I understand people don't like long banlists, but I have doubts about the ability for "discretion" to be applied fairly and consistently in a way that isn't biased towards the type of decks the TO prefers.

Edit: Asthereal used to maintain the list in alphabetical order. That made it easy to check legality no matter how long the list. You just scroll down and check your 4 cards in alphabetical order, rather than having to read through every card name. It took me under 30 seconds, even when we have very long banlists from bannathons. If it's taking a long time to check if cards are legal, or you are not sure even after checking the list, perhaps that could be solved by sharing strategies for checking the list or by adding functionality to the spreadsheet.

I agree with everything here. I don't mind long banlists that are alphabetically organized (which is really easy on the google tab because you can right click -> sort alphabetically). And I also don't necessarily think that my discretion would be the best, though I think it would be okay. I definitely lean toward 1a myself.


Does that mana just not empty normally, or
is it also immune to things like Mana Short?
What about Kruphix, God of Horizons?
I was trying to save on words, but I shouldn't have. It should say "this mana does not empty from your mana pool as steps and phases end".
My ruling on Kruphix is that the "become colorless" clause is a replacement effect, but since the game rule says that mana doesn't empty, the replacement does not happen. However, if you have a Kruphix in play and your opponent plays Mana Short, then it would become colorless. Also, I don't think anyone will play Kruphix except possibly to spite this very sentence. Mana Short, on the other hand, is definitely a valid strategy and I expect it to be played.




even with no draws, it's still possible for there to
be no decks scoring more than 3 round points
and
due to draws, it's possible for there to be
no decks scoring more than 2 round points

, ​ ​ ​ so there should be a fallback in case ​ a ​ would ban nothing,
or maybe even if it would just ban too little.
Funny enough, if you check back to our banathons from a few seasons ago, I was the one clamouring about this! And yes, I think option a should really read "all decks that are top three, tied for top three, or scoring more than 3.0 round points".

[dte]

24h to the deadline, and plenty of (legal) submissions missing.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

24h to the deadline, and plenty of (legal) submissions missing.

FINE!
I'll submit a legal list...

[dte]

3h to the deadline, and still missing quite a few submissions!

[dte]

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27
Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
 

[dte]

The excel sheet is updated (finally, on the penultimate round of the season, I found a way not too painful to do it)

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
me, playing painful manabase and gy-based as 2 target decks were using gy strategies.

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
0-6. you play a more painful manabase, and a later arriving threat.

jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
0-6. A work of beauty!
This will definitely sign the final ban of the flailers, but I am very happy they were legal this round to lead to this! (well, also because only you thought of it, if it was half the field I would have considered a mistake).

Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
6-0. You can eat the broodstar.
6

RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27
6-0. Lantern beats me.
12

Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
0-6. Nice deck. Having to survive a full turn at 1 life.
12

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
6-0. You are too fast for me.
18

BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
2-2. I do have a non C-producing land.
20

FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
2-2. I do have a non C-producing land.
22

GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
6-0. Lantern beats me.
28

Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
0-6. painful manabase lose to tablet, but you remove the pain from my manabase.
28