4CBS13: a 4-cards blind backbuild bannathon season [Archive] - Page 3

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-04-2022, 02:05 PM

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
2-0
0

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
2-0
0

jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
0-0-2 I can kill soldier, but if I do, then I can't win.
2

Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
2-0 I count it taking you exactly 9 turns to cast a lion sash, which is exactly the speed needed to beat my combo. Meaning whomever is on the play wins.

RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27
2-0

Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
2-0

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
that's me
5

BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
0-2 My tomb will let you Vesuva a way to cast seer, but if I don't play it I'm going to get Wolfcaller's Howl'd. Well. Unless I pact.
11

FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
0-2 I just talked about this!
17

GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
2-0, i think?

Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
2-0

E: 14-6-2

GoblinSmashmaster

10-04-2022, 02:20 PM

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round GY haters

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
Goblin smash :( 0-6

jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
Lion smash! 6-0

RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27
Ajani smash! 6-0

Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
Death smash! 6-0

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
Titan smash! 6-0

BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
Goblin smash :( 0-6

FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
Goblin smash :( 0-6

GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
That's me on another Goblin combo!!

Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
Goblin smash :( 0-6

Total: 24 points

Dooey

10-04-2022, 02:39 PM

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore Sash eats your yard. 0 points.
Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt I deal 1 before you get marit lage. 0 points.
jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw I kill soldier. 0 points.
Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash Me. 0 points
RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent I stop your combo in several ways. 0 points.
Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience I can keep you off exactly 1. 0 points.
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm. See discussion below. Biorhythm wins. 6 points
BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl. You can't do any damage. 0 points.
FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher. You can't do any damage. 0 points.
GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin. I am too fast. 0 points.
Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn. Copper tablet makes me lose to mastery. 6 points.

12 total points, I think.

Asthereal

10-04-2022, 03:12 PM

I missed the round. Apologies. I was busy all day and forgot. :tongue:

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-04-2022, 03:13 PM

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore Sash eats your yard. 0 points.
Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt I deal 1 before you get marit lage. 0 points.
jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw I kill soldier. 0 points.
Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash Me. 0 points
RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent I stop your combo in several ways. 0 points.
Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience I can keep you off exactly 1. 0 points.
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm. Trusting your math on your combo. 1 point!
BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl. You can't do any damage. 0 points.
FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher. You can't do any damage. 0 points.
GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin. I think you can deal damage to me fast enough to make me lose my permanents by saving up enough mana to put goblin into your deck while I'm tapped out of white. Not 100% sure on this one, but I think 6 points.
Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn. Copper tablet makes me lose to mastery. 6 points.

13 total points, I think.
Add 3 points, even if you cast lion sash you still have to sacrifice 19 permanants to Mastery+Biorhythm, which triggers mastery

Dooey

10-04-2022, 05:45 PM

Add 3 points, even if you cast lion sash you still have to sacrifice 19 permanants to Mastery+Biorhythm, which triggers mastery

Actually going through it now, I think I'm slower than you even on the play. My line is:

T1: Play tapped hangar.
T2-7: Make 6 storage counters. Play sanctum at some point.
T8: Play lich's mastery.
T9: Make 1 more storage counter.
T10: Play Lion Sash.
T11: Attack for the first time.

But having the creature doesn't actually save me because I still lose to mastery. Also: You can actually "fog" an attack with pact->block->biorhythm in response to pact trigger, so I can't attack you anyway once you have enough counters on brain.

So I think I get 6 points here actually?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-04-2022, 05:52 PM

Actually going through it now, I think I'm slower than you even on the play. My line is:

T1: Play tapped hangar.
T2-7: Make 6 storage counters. Play sanctum at some point.
T8: Play lich's mastery.
T9: Make 1 more storage counter.
T10: Play Lion Sash.
T11: Attack for the first time.

But having the creature doesn't actually save me because I still lose to mastery. Also: You can actually "fog" an attack with pact->block->biorhythm in response to pact trigger, so I can't attack you anyway once you have enough counters on brain.

So I think I get 6 points here actually?
My post says you should add three points, if you copied my work, then you should have 3 points already...

jfb1337

10-04-2022, 06:41 PM

jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
Came up with this concept last round but couldn't find a way to make it beat any of the target decks. But this time there was a target deck that it could beat.

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy, Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
LL 6-0 You kill the flailer and win

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
DD 2-2 You kill the flailer, but you can't win without enabling charmaw

Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
LL 6-0 You kill the flailer and win

RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27
LL 6-0 You kill the flailer and win

Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
DD 2-2 You can kill the flailer using the lotus, but then you can't win

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
DD 2-2 You can kill the flailer but then you can't win

BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
DD 2-2 You can kill the flailer but then you can't win

FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
DD 2-2 You can kill the flailer but then you can't win

GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
LL 6-0 You kill the flailer and win

Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
WW 0-6 You can only kill the flailer by playing vineyard, which allows me to play the charmaw

Total: 8L 10D 2W = 34 points

Edit: Fix Reeplcheep matchup

BirdsOfParadise

10-05-2022, 02:30 AM

Hey FTW, nice deck! ;-)

So, I went over FTW’s scores, and I can’t find any instance in which TKS performs differently than Reality Smasher, so I believe FTW and I score identically.

As always, I’m amazed at the creativity of everyone in this round. How some of you even find these cards is beyond me. (An Ajani that poisons people? Seriously? And what is with that red flier that cares about enemy {C}-producing lands? How did you even...?)

And GoblinSmashmaster, how in the world are you able to come up with a viable Goblin tribal deck every round?

If dte is banning Flailers, I can share my tech: Oppressive Rays. I was almost gonna use that plus Flailing Soldier, City of Traitors, and Boros Garrison — or, alternatively, Hollow Trees, Hypergenesis, Flailing Soldier, Oppressive Rays — last round. I think after the final round, it will be fun to share our ideas that never saw play. I bet there are some really crazy things that got thought up but not used.

Symbi

10-05-2022, 03:42 AM

1. dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35

You cast mortivore, then wait until I am at 1 life to swing. If I hold NDE, you can just kill me anyway. LL 6-0, 6 total.

2. Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23

You are one turn faster. LL 6-0, 12 total

3. jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15

I can kill the soldier, but then I can't win. DD 2-2, 14 total

4. Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30

I die to lion sash. LL 6-0, 20 total

5. RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27

I get NDE off as poison isn't life loss. WW 0-6, 20 total

6. Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24

That's me!

7. FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9

You kill me with biorhythm before I can win. LL 6-0, 26 total

8. BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl

Mishra's workshop can't cast TKS. WW 0-6, 26 total

9. FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher

Mishra's workshop can't cast Reality smasher. WW 0-6, 26 total

10. GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183

If you cast assassin when I am at 1 life, you get to keep it and I win. If you cast assassin when I am above 1 life, you don't get to keep it. WW 0-6, 26 total

11. Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep

If I am at 1 life at the beginning of my upkeep, NDE and tablet will trigger, but because of how triggered abilities are ordered, the tablet will resolve first and I will die. If I am above 1 life, NDE simply won't trigger and I don't win. Therefore, I can't win with copper tablet in play. LL 6-0, 32 total

dte

10-05-2022, 03:56 AM

@Rooster and @Symbi: I don't think that RoosterCocoa 's GT is correct, so you may want to revisit your MU.

Dooey

10-05-2022, 05:03 AM

dte

10-05-2022, 05:10 AM

jfb1337

10-05-2022, 06:00 AM

I'd treat Goblin Game as though it were worded the same as Wheel of misfortune; and then resolve it by having the players make choices in APNAP order in which the second player gets to see the first player's choice.

A python script confirms that if a player on 21 life vs a player on 20 life has to make the first choice, then they cannot guarantee staying ahead on life. So it probably doesn't win.

BirdsOfParadise

10-05-2022, 06:04 AM

Deck X contains random-effect card R. When R is played, it operates in whichever way causes Deck X to lose. But Deck X is trying to win. Deck X will only actually choose to cast R if doing so helps it win.

Previously FTW had Wild Evocation in a match against me. It turned out that FTW’s deck’s optimal line was to cast Wild Evo, but once it was in play, it operated in a way that tried to make FTW lose. (I think maybe the results was that we drew).

GoblinSmashmaster has Goblin Assassin. Smashie’s deck will, playing optimally, cast Goblin Assassin because doing so helps Smashie win games (it causes a 2/2 to be in play or leads to 1 damage with Boggart Shenanigans). But the Goblin Assassin decides what to do in a way that causes Smashie to lose games. In particular, vs Symbi, Goblin Assassin always chooses to sacrifice itself, resulting in 1 damage to Symbi, except when Symbi is at 1 life. When Symbi is at 1 life, Goblin Assassin chooses to remain in play as a 2/2 with summoning sickness, which enables Symbi to win with NDE.

Casting Mana Clash makes any deck lose on the spot, but no deck will choose to cast Mana Clash for this reason. You can run it, but your deck only casts it if the opponent’s deck is, say, forcing it to be cast with Word of Command, in which case Mana Clash functions like a Pact.

As for Goblin Game... that’s weird. It’s not random. Both sides get to write down whatever number they want. But both sides must play optimally. What happens if each side’s optimal choice is contingent on the choice the opponent is making? Simultaneous decision making is kind of like hidden information. In this format no information is hidden, but how do you get around the simultaneity of the decisions?

BirdsOfParadise

10-05-2022, 06:38 AM

@Rooster and @Symbi: I don't think that RoosterCocoa 's GT is correct, so you may want to revisit your MU.
This is what happens if you don’t read what “Compleated” actually says, just as I didn’t.

I believe RoosterCocoa does as follows:
T1: Play Woodlot.
T2: Play Coliseum. Cast Reito Lantern
T3: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck
T4: Play Woodlot.
T5: Cast Ajani, +1 Ajani (now 5).
T6: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck. +1 Ajani (now 6)
T7: Play Woodlot. -6 Ajani. One emblem.
T8: Put Ajani back in deck.
T9: Sac Woodlot. Put Woodlot back in deck.
T10: Play Woodlot.
T11: Cast Ajani. Two poison counters. +1 Ajani (now 5).
T12: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck. +1 Ajani (now 6).
T13: Play Woodlot. -6 Ajani. Two emblems.
T14: Put Ajani back in deck.
T15: Sac Woodlot. Put Woodlot back in deck.
T16: Play Woodlot.
T17: Cast Ajani. Four new poison counters makes six counters. +1 Ajani (now 5).
T18: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck. +1 Ajani (now 6).
T19: Play Woodlot. -6 Ajani. Three emblems.
T20: Put Ajani back in deck.
T21: Sac Woodlot. Put Woodlot back in deck.
T22: Play Woodlot.
T23: Cast Ajani. Six new poison counters makes twelve counters. That’s lethal.

Ajani actually comes into play with two fewer loyalty counters, which slows down the clock. I have Symbi winning on turn 24, so if RoosterCocoa wins several turns slower than turn 23, it sounds like LL for Rooster. What do others compute?

Compared to my incorrect computation, Ajani spends two additional turns in its first life, two additional turns in its second life, and one less turn in its third life (since it can go 2 +1 -3 = 0). But in its third life, taking one turn less doesn’t speed things up bc you’re on Hickory Woodlot time (see T17–20 in my incorrect math, which really should be T21–24, I think). So I’m leaning towards thinking RoosterCocoa was right to begin with.

Reeplcheep

10-05-2022, 08:22 AM

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
Since the target decks take so long to do the first point of damage I though it would be good to do a kill yourself deck.

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
You do 1 damage well before I can make marit lage. LL 6-0

jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
Very impressive, you managed to make flailers work. Disagreement, I can kill soldier with only one colourless producing land but to actually win I need 2. DD 2-2

Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
You do 1 damage well before I can make marit lage. LL 6-0

RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27
I’m faster and you don’t interact. WW 0-6

Actually your GT is 19? LL 6-0

Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
Assuming this is legal (is losing life unfavourable if it wins you the game?), I’m slightly faster. WW 0-6

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
I can’t make a creature in time. LL 6-0

BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
I have 2 non-colourless producing lands, but I can’t win without all of them. DD 2-2

FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
I have 2 non-colourless producing lands, but I can’t win without all of them. DD 2-2

GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
You do 1 damage well before I can make marit lage. LL 6-0

Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
You lose to sanctuary if you do anything, and vineyard stops me from hurting myself so I can still win. WW 0-6

4W 6D 10L for 36/60.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-05-2022, 08:31 AM

I feel like it goes against the spirit of "Randomness always hurts you" if, because we're playing buildback I have to always choose the outcome that wins me the game, and therefore costs me the points.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-05-2022, 08:35 AM

The basic rules of 4CB apply, except that we exchange decks at the beginning of each match.
So "you" play optimally to win, but random effects work against you.

While on goblins, random effects and 4CB rules, a certain player no one would recognise tried to submit a deck killing by recursive Goblin Game, with a 1 life head start. I said I thought the deck would not be legal, but was not sure as I have no clue as to how to resolve the card. Anyone wants to chime in?

I would think Goblin Game would be done like any other "each player chooses" card, heads up with perfect psychic information. Or everyone always has to choose zero because getting objects to hide is not allowed in 4cb, just like you can't wish.
I would ban it though because I do not want to figure out all 400 possibilities each resolution of the spell and decide which ones are favorable.

BirdsOfParadise

10-05-2022, 09:44 AM

> is losing life unfavorable if it wins you the game?
It’s Mana Vault, not Mana Crypt, so losing life is inevitable if Symbi wants to cast NDE.

Reeplcheep

10-05-2022, 10:45 AM

> is losing life unfavorable if it wins you the game?
It’s Mana Vault, not Mana Crypt, so losing life is inevitable if Symbi wants to cast NDE.

Yes that’s my mistake.

dte

10-05-2022, 11:44 AM

BirdsOfParadise

10-05-2022, 12:12 PM

Looks like dte is shaving time off of my version of RoosterCocoa’s clock by sacrificing Woodlot during the upkeep and drawing it in the draw step of the same turn. I was taking a whole turn to sac Woodlot and then another whole turn to replay it. I don’t see a problem with using the upkeep step. Will be interesting to see what RoosterCocoa and Symbi say when they get a chance to consider it.

FTW

10-05-2022, 01:44 PM

Goblin Assassin

May be a bit late given that we are basically at the end, but I never did understand the rule on random effects... what actually happens when goblin assassin ETBs? I had been working under an assumption somewhat along the lines of: opponent of the submitter of the deck with random effects chooses the outcome of the random effect, and is assumed to choose the the one that results in the submitter of the deck with random effects getting the fewest points. But if this card works the way goblin smashmaster wants it to, I must not be understanding.

The controller of the random effect gets the worst outcome for optimal play trying to win the game. At least that's how we've played it here.

Backbuild confuses things because we get points for losing. But each deck pilot must still play optimally to win. You could either view it as switching decks trying to win with opponent's deck, or being forced to win with your own deck (even though round points reward the opposite). Random effects get the outcome that opposes the controller's attempt to win.

Goblin Assassin has 2 options:
a) survive as a 2/2
b) die and ping for 1 damage

In most cases the 2/2 wins faster, so it will die and ping for 1 damage.

In some board states the 2/2 deals less damage than pinging (opponent has a blocker or NDE at 1 life). In those cases it survives as a 2/2 instead of dying.

Mana Clash always loses the flip and kills you. However you cannot use it to 6-0 every Backbuild game on turn 1, because controllers must use optimal play trying to win the game. In most cases optimal play means you never cast Mana Clash. It is like Summoner's Pact in hand. However Goblin Assassin gets cast because both outcomes advance GoblinSmashmaster's game plan. It will just be the slower outcome each time.

Goblin Game is different because the choices are not random. Edit: Math in a separate post.

FTW

10-05-2022, 01:51 PM

FTW

10-05-2022, 02:55 PM

Goblin Game math and logic attempted.

Player A at 21 vs Player B at 20
A chooses X > 0
B chooses Y after with perfect information.

Resolving Goblin Game...
If Y < X then B -> FLOOR[(20-Y)/2] life // A -> 21-X life
If Y=X then B -> FLOOR[(20-X)/2] life // A -> FLOOR[(21-X)/2] life
If Y > X then B -> 20 - Y life // A -> FLOOR[(21-X)/2] life

Choosing Y=1 is strictly better than anything else less than X (B would lose more without A losing more)
Choosing Y=X+1 is strictly better than anything bigger (B would lose more without A losing more)
Choosing Y=X is never better than Y=X+1 (equal when X would bring you to 2 life, otherwise losing half is worse than losing 1 life)

Player B's only reasonable choices for Y are 1 or X+1. That simplifies decisions.

If X > 12, player B can choose Y=1, get life halved, and ends up ahead: B -> 9 life // A -> 21 - X life
If X < 17, player B can choose Y=X+1, force player A to get life halved, and ends up ahead: B -> 19 - X life // A -> FLOOR[(21-X)/2] life

Starting at 21 vs 20 life, Player B will always end up ahead after 1 Goblin Game. It only gets worse after more Goblin Games. Player A cannot win.

Generalizing... What if player A starts with L extra life?
If X > 11+L, player B can choose Y=1 and end up ahead: B -> 9 life // A -> 20+L-X life
If X < 18-L, player B can choose Y=X+1 and end up ahead: B -> 19-X life // A -> FLOOR[(20+L-X)/2] life

If 18-L < X < 11+L then player B cannot use either line to get ahead. Player A needs L > 4 extra life.

Starting at 25 life, Player A can choose X=15:
If player B chooses Y=1 -> B @ 9 life, A @ 10 life.
If player B chooses Y=16 -> B @ 4 life, A @ 5.
FINALLY Player A can resolve Goblin Game and finish ahead in life no matter what Player B chooses. But A is just ahead by 1 life, not enough to win a 2nd Goblin Game. To win the 2nd and 3rd Goblin Game to kill, Player A needs a bigger life advantage.

Edit: To guarantee winning consecutive Goblin Games, Player A needs a life advantage bigger than 1 after resolving Goblin Games.
Player A could choose X so that Player B cannot match it, guaranteeing player B will get their life halved.
If Player A starts with at least 33 life this is possible.
1st Goblin Game -> Choose X=19 -> B must choose Y=1 -> A @ 14 life, B @ 9 life
2nd Goblin Game -> Choose X=8 -> B must choose Y=1 -> A @ 6 life, B @ 4 life
3rd Goblin Game -> Choose X=3 -> B must choose Y=1 -> A @ 3 life, B @ 1 life
4th Goblin Game -> Choose X=1 -> B can match or choose higher -> either way B loses and A survives at 1 life

With +13 life you can guarantee a win using 4 Goblin Games.

If Player A starts with 27 life, you can't constrain decisions as much but can still win
1st Goblin Game -> Choose X=15
If B chooses Y=16: A @ 6 life, B @ 4 life (we know this wins from above, choosing X=3 then X=1)
If B chooses Y=1: A @ 12 life, B @ 9 life
-> For 2nd Goblin Game choose X=6
-> -> If B chooses Y=1: A @ 6 life, B @ 4 life (we know this wins from above)
-> -> If B chooses Y=7: A @ 3 life, B @ 2 life -> For 3rd Goblin Game choose X=1 -> No matter what B chooses, A survives at 1 and B loses

Edit2: 27 life is enough for Player A to kill with 4 Goblin Games no matter what opponent chooses.
I could not find a winning line with 26 life.

tl;dr- We could ban Goblin Game, but I do not see the point. Perfect information gives opponent a large advantage. You have to gain 7 life just to beat a goldfish. Gaining that much life does not seem competitive in Backbuild.

jfb1337

10-05-2022, 07:46 PM

I don't think "having a lot of decision points" is really a good reason to ban a card

BirdsOfParadise

10-05-2022, 08:08 PM

If there is a reason to ban goblin game, it is not because there are too many decision points, but rather because the card’s Oracle text explicitly says that decisions need to be made simultaneously by both players. This is distinct from APNAP order and could in principle be impossible to resolve!

RoosterCocoa

10-06-2022, 01:35 AM

RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27 23
I didn't notice that I could -3 Ajani to kill him the last time, or that I could use Lantern on upkeep for Woodlot. Luckily for me, whenever I use Lantern on Woodlot after I use it on Ajani, doing it on upkeep doesn't matter because Ajani is already in my library, so if I use Lantern on Woodlot it just goes below Ajani and doesn't get drawn until the next turn.

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
Lantern beats you. WW

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
Whoever is on the play wins. WL

jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
You can't ever beat me. WW

Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
Lich's Mastery means I can't win. LL

Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
Unfortunately for me, with my new goldfish you lose by one turn. WW

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
You are too fast for me. LL

BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
If I play Woodlot, you can't do anything but I can't win. DD

FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
If I play Woodlot, you can't do anything but I can't win. DD

GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
I am too fast, even with the self damage. WW

Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
You have to play Vineyard on your first turn, so I can choose between not paying life for Ajani or not recycling Woodlot. If I don't pay life for Ajani, I lose if you deal 16 damage before I can win, which is my upkeep after your turn 17. You can also delay me by 3 turns with Shriekhorn, using it to mill the card I place on top of my library (I think you can only get one turn per use, but I might be wrong since you can make me use depletion counters from Woodlot). I play Ajani on my turn 3, so I can ult him on turn 5, which gives me enough time to use Lantern to get Woodlot back and play it on turn 4. This means on turn 5 I place Ajani in my library, and I replay him on turn 6. This cycle takes 3 turns, so after turn 12 I have ulted Ajani 3 times and just replayed him. Since you can delay me 3 times with Shriekhorn, this makes it actually turn 15, which means I win. WW

11W 4D 5L = 19

It turns out I'm too used to backbuild lists that only do what I built them to do, I didn't even bother looking to see if the deck could win faster than I designed it to. I did come up with a great list, but it was way too bad to win vs one of the target decks.

dte

10-06-2022, 03:19 AM

dte

10-06-2022, 08:12 AM

Provisional scores for round 7:
3,8 Symbi
3,6 Reeplcheep
3,6 Silkster
3,4 jfb1337
3,4 BirdsOfParadise
3,4 FTW
2,8 dte(TO)
2,4 GoblinSmashmaster
1,6 RoosterCocoa
1,4 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
1,2 Dooey

Which leads to the following standings for S13:
1 26,5 BirdsOfParadise
2 25,9 Symbi
3 23,7 Silkster
4 20,3 RoosterCocoa
5 19,5 Wrath of Pie
6 18,2 FTW
7 16,8 Reeplcheep
8 16,5 jfb1337
9 15,6 dte (TO)
10 15 GoblinSmashmaster
11 12 Dooey
12 10,7 FourDogsinaHorseSuit
13 8,6 alphastryk
14 6,6 Asthereal
15 2,9 Raketenudo

So a very tight race for the top spot, to be decided on the last round between BirdsOfParadise and Symbi, with Silkster maybe able to do something!
Positions 4, 7 and 9 are also in play.

There will be the following additional bannings:
Flailing Soldier
Chancellor of the Tangle
Near-Death Experience
Wolfcaller's Howl
Flailing Ogre
Obsidian Charmaw
Impatience

As well as all cards in the target decks, which are:
Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash
Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent
Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm

I will brew something, last round to be opened soon!

Reeplcheep

10-06-2022, 08:34 AM

I’m seeing 22, 23 and 19 for rooster’s GT. I’m fine to go down to WL if someone can lay it out again. Just to confirm, this is why I’m 23:

I beat 4x wastes by making marit lage on t22 at 1 life (3 turns to play my mana producing lands, 19 to remove counters) and then attacking on t23.

dte

10-06-2022, 10:36 AM

I sent myself a deck, so R8 officially open!

Note that there is two cards that were not played last round but are banned (bolded), the ogre to accompany the soldier, and impatience as well-scoring decks from R6 would be legal otherwise:
Flailing Soldier
Chancellor of the Tangle
Near-Death Experience
Wolfcaller's Howl
Flailing Ogre
Obsidian Charmaw
Impatience

The target decks are:
Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash
Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent
Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm

All cards in them are banned as well for R8.

Deadline Tuesday 18th at 19h.

BirdsOfParadise

10-06-2022, 12:12 PM

Flailing Manticore: Legal, or overlooked in the ban announcement?

dte

10-06-2022, 12:23 PM

Flailing Manticore: Legal, or overlooked in the ban announcement?

Legal. I didn't find a way to make it good.

silkster

10-06-2022, 04:09 PM

dte(TO), Dreadship Reef, horizon canopy , Broodstar, mortivore, GT c. 35
If I make the Vineyard, then you can safely charge the Reef for 12 turns, then make Broody then Morty. If I don't make the Vineyard, I can never do anything, so I lose to your normal game plan.
LL

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt GT: 23
Same as above. If I make the Vineyard, then the Sanctuary powers out a quick and easy Marit Lage. If I don't, I can never do anything and you can win nice and slow.
LL

jfb1337, Lotus Bloom, Conjurer's Bauble, Flailing Soldier, Obsidian Charmaw GT: 15
If I make Vineyard, then you can Charmaw me. So I never make Vineyard, and I die to the Soldier. This deck is super cool.
LL

Dooey, Subterranean Hangar, Lich's Mastery, Serra's Sanctum, Lion Sash GT30
Ooh, I've been thinking about a Lich+Serra's Sanctum deck for a while, but I was trying to do things like have a creature with an upkeep of W, so I never got around to a "simple" build like this. I questioned the Lion Sash at first, but that must be to make the deck actually legal by beating Jötun Grunt.
I can safely make Vineyard on turn 1, so if you ever to get aggressive with the Lion from 20 hp, I can kill you. But if I try to the Tablet, you can play Lich's Mastery to buy yourself a few extra life (and get a few attacks in, though you don't need them).
DD edit: disagreement

RoosterCocoa, Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent, GT: 27
This is an amazingly interactive and complicated matchup. I'm guessing that my 3 activations of Shriekhorn... well, they only buy me 3 turns cause you can activate Lantern every turn with :1: from Coliseum and the Vineyard mana. I'm going to move on for now.
??
I'm glad to see that RoosterCocoa did the math (which actually wasn't that bad; still, thanks!).
LL

Symbi, Lotus Bloom, Mishra's Workshop, Mana Vault, Near-Death Experience, GT:24
I think APNAP means that my tablet kills you with your win trigger on the stack.
WW

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Ancient Tomb, Brain in a Jar, Pact of the Titan, Biorhythm, GT9
This is the deck that I've continually been most impressed with over the season. It requires 9 activations of Ancient Tomb, which is just so perfect. Unfortunately. that mean that I was targeting it. Vineyard gives you an easy win, so I can't do that. So then I have no game plan.
LL

BirdsOfParadise, Hollow Trees, Thought-Knot Seer, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl
Ah, Vesuva is a great way to make use of the dummy's Wastes.
WW

FTW, Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher
Great minds. Sad for team no-lands.
WW

GoblinSmashmaster, Mercadian Bazaar, Reito Lantern, Boggart Shenanigans, Goblin Assassin, GT183
You can deal me damage quite easily, especially with bonus mana.
LL

Silkster, Chancellor of the Tangle, Eladamri's Vineyard, Copper Tablet, Shriekhorn, GT: 21+upkeep
I almost played Chancellor of the Tangle + Saproling Cluster in round 2, which would have done better than the Cluster deck of that round, but not quite as well as the top deck. I got distracted thinking about the next season and ended up scrambling for a deck at the last minute. Copper Tablet seemed good enough, but I was disappointed that I could use it defensively against decks like Brain in a Jar even if I needed the Vineyard to make the Tablet. This was the perfect opportunity to reuse the Chancellor. Unfortunately, I got got by Wolfcaller's Howl again.

12L, 2D, 6W, 2? for 38 points.

I still think randomness is most easily considered by switching decks. After switching decks, everyone is trying to win, and randomness works how you expect it: your opponent chooses the outcome of your random events.

Seeing the scores, I really could have used those 3.5 points from Avoid Fate -> Intervene. It was definitely my bad, though, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As always, I’m amazed at the creativity of everyone in this round. How some of you even find these cards is beyond me. (An Ajani that poisons people? Seriously? And what is with that red flier that cares about enemy {C}-producing lands? How did you even...?)

And GoblinSmashmaster, how in the world are you able to come up with a viable Goblin tribal deck every round?

If dte is banning Flailers, I can share my tech: Oppressive Rays. I was almost gonna use that plus Flailing Soldier, City of Traitors, and Boros Garrison — or, alternatively, Hollow Trees, Hypergenesis, Flailing Soldier, Oppressive Rays — last round. I think after the final round, it will be fun to share our ideas that never saw play. I bet there are some really crazy things that got thought up but not used.

Me too! The Ajani is brand new, so maybe someone played it on Arena. It doesn't surprise me that people know about the Charmaw because it was hyped in Modern for a while. But to remember it and realize that it can be used here is the crazy part. An embarrassing number of my searches start with -t:creature or pow=0, cause things that can attack are just too powerful. Wolfcaller's Howl was also a crazy find, and then the ways that made use of opponent playing a land were creative too.

I considered Flailing Soldier with Suppression Field, but then you get too many free wins against certain storage lands. And I thought about Cursed Totem, but then you just have Gray Ogre, and he's way too strong. I knew about Oppressive Rays (I had a really good round with it in the pauper season when removal was scarce), but didn't realize it was useful here. I also like that the way this deck beats 4 Wastes is by getting the creature down on turn 3 because you can't actually land the Rays against 4 activations.

I'm also loving the Goblin themes, especially because they're real decks that are competitively bad.

FTW

10-06-2022, 05:48 PM

I believe RoosterCocoa does as follows:
T1: Play Woodlot.
T2: Play Coliseum. Cast Reito Lantern
T3: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck, draw and play it again.
T4: Cast Ajani, +1 Ajani (now 3).
T5: Sac Woodlot, put it back in deck, draw and play it. +1 Ajani (now 4)
T8: -6 Ajani. One emblem, Put Ajani back in deck.
T9: Sac Woodlot. Put Woodlot back in deck. Play Woodlot.
T10: Cast Ajani. Two poison counters. +1 Ajani (now 3). --> it takes 6 turns.
T14: -6 Ajani. Two emblems, Put Ajani back in deck.
T16: Cast Ajani. 6 poison counters. +1 Ajani (now 3).
T17: sac woodlot and play it, -3 ajani.
T18: draw ajani.
T19: win.
If I am correct, that changes MUs vs Reeplcheep and symbi.

There's still disagreement.

It affects both this round's results and deck legality for next round (since it is a target deck).

T1 tapped Woodlot (2 counters)
T2 Coliseum. Reito Lantern. (1 counter)
T3 upkeep sac Woodlot -> redraw Woodlot -> tapped Woodlot (2 counters)
T4 Ajani. +1 [Ajani=3, life=17, 1 counter]
T5 upkeep sac Woodlot -> replay tapped Woodlot. +1 [Ajani=4, life=17, 2 counters]
T6 +1 [Ajani=5]
T7 +1 [Ajani=6]
T8 -6. Emblem #1. Put Ajani in library. [life=17, 1 counter]
T9 upkeep sac Woodlot
Library = {Ajani, Woodlot}
Draw Ajani.
T10 Draw Woodlot. Tapped Woodlot [2 counters]
T11 Cast Ajani. +1 [Ajani=3, life=14, poison=2, 1 counter]
T12 upkeep sac Woodlot -> replay tapped Woodlot. +1 [Ajani=4, 2 counters]
T13 +1 [Ajani=5]
T14 +1 [Ajani=6]
T15 -6. Emblem #2. Put Ajani in library. [life=14, poison=2, 1 counter]
T16 Upkeep sac Woodlot. Draw Ajani.
T17 Draw Woodlot. Tapped Woodlot. [2 counters]
T18 Cast Ajani. +1 [Ajani=3, life=11, poison=6, 1 counter]
T19 Upkeep sac Woodlot -> Play tapped Woodlot. -3 Ajani. [Ajani dead, 2 counters]
T20 Upkeep put Ajani in library. Draw Ajani [1 counter]
T21 Cast Ajani. Woodlot dies. [life=8, poison=10, 0 counters]

I get GT21

2 more than dte but 2 less than Rooster!

I agree with dte's sequence except for the 1 issue, bolded. dte has Rooster redrawing Woodlot before Ajani when both are in library. But the library order must be Ajani first, since Reito Lantern must be activated on 2 separate turns. That comes up on T9-10 and T16-17, delaying 2 turns. It does not need to happen for the 4th Ajani cast, since Rooster does not need to save Woodlot after dealing lethal.

Can anyone else confirm?

BirdsOfParadise

10-06-2022, 07:30 PM

Note to self: If aiming to beat RoosterCocoa’s target deck, don’t rely on the goldfish turn. Null Rod and Chimney Imp, go!

FTW

10-06-2022, 07:53 PM

I may or may not have a deck with GT 21 that really cares whether this is 21, 22 or 23.

GoblinSmashmaster

10-06-2022, 08:53 PM

Goblin Game math

...

27 life is enough for Player A to kill with 4 Goblin Games no matter what opponent chooses.

:eyebrow: I'm no GoblinMathmaster

RoosterCocoa

10-07-2022, 12:38 AM

T1 tapped Woodlot (2 counters)
T2 Coliseum. Reito Lantern. (1 counter)
T3 upkeep sac Woodlot -> redraw Woodlot -> tapped Woodlot (2 counters)
T4 Ajani. +1 [Ajani=3, life=17, 1 counter]
T5 upkeep sac Woodlot -> replay tapped Woodlot. +1 [Ajani=4, life=17, 2 counters]
T6 +1 [Ajani=5]
T7 +1 [Ajani=6]
T8 -6. Emblem #1. Put Ajani in library. [life=17, 1 counter]
T9 upkeep sac Woodlot
Library = {Ajani, Woodlot}
Draw Ajani.
T10 Draw Woodlot. Tapped Woodlot [2 counters]
T11 Cast Ajani. +1 [Ajani=3, life=14, poison=2, 1 counter]
T12 upkeep sac Woodlot -> replay tapped Woodlot. +1 [Ajani=4, 2 counters]
T13 +1 [Ajani=5]
T14 +1 [Ajani=6]
T15 -6. Emblem #2. Put Ajani in library. [life=14, poison=2, 1 counter]
T16 Upkeep sac Woodlot. Draw Ajani.
T17 Draw Woodlot. Tapped Woodlot. [2 counters]
T18 Cast Ajani. +1 [Ajani=3, life=11, poison=6, 1 counter]
T19 Upkeep sac Woodlot -> Play tapped Woodlot. -3 Ajani. [Ajani dead, 2 counters]
T20 Upkeep put Ajani in library. Draw Ajani [1 counter]
T21 Cast Ajani. Woodlot dies. [life=8, poison=10, 0 counters]

This looks right, I assume I made a mistake in my calculations somewhere.

Me too! The Ajani is brand new, so maybe someone played it on Arena. It doesn't surprise me that people know about the Charmaw because it was hyped in Modern for a while. But to remember it and realize that it can be used here is the crazy part. An embarrassing number of my searches start with -t:creature or pow=0, cause things that can attack are just too powerful. Wolfcaller's Howl was also a crazy find, and then the ways that made use of opponent playing a land were creative too.

I actually found Ajani when playing a game against infect with a deck that incidentally lost a lot of life, so I realized there might be something there and went through all the cards with infect or that can create poison counters. Wolfcaller's Howl was the end of a long search where I attempted to find something like Iron Maiden the round that all of the target decks had Forbidden Orchard as their only land.

dte

10-10-2022, 07:25 AM

Deadline is tomorrow, and only two decks received.

jfb1337

10-10-2022, 09:00 AM

The OP says that the deadline is the 18th

dte

10-10-2022, 09:04 AM

The OP says that the deadline is the 18th

Deadline Tuesday 18th at 19h.

next deadline is Tuesday October 18th at 19h CEST.

Damn, it seemed I screwed up - no clue why I put 18th rather than 11th. It probably explained why I received so few decks.
But then let's keep the 18th, one additional week for all to think about the last winning deck of the season.

Reeplcheep

10-11-2022, 08:28 AM

It also was Canadian thanksgiving so I had no time.

Reeplcheep

10-11-2022, 08:37 AM

Brain in a jar lets the goldfish cast biorhythm at instant speed, correct?

dte

10-11-2022, 08:51 AM

Brain in a jar lets the goldfish cast biorhythm at instant speed, correct?

Correct.

silkster

10-11-2022, 10:45 AM

It also was Canadian thanksgiving so I had no time.

A fellow Canadian! I had no idea!

I'd been thinking that it's customary to take a week break in between seasons, but maybe the extra break now means that won't be necessary. Of course, I still have to decide what that season will be. I haven't done a proper tally of the votes, and they seemed to be quite scattered, but at least most of them seemed to be in favour of most options.

Phasmoid

10-11-2022, 10:17 PM

I got curious about the Goblin Game problem (per FTW's post), so I wrote my own Python code for it.
The outcome is,

FTW is correct that 27 life is enough for Player A to kill with 4 Goblin Games no matter what opponent chooses.
and
There is indeed no such line with 26 life, or for that matter with fewer Goblin Games.
and
With 27 life, hiding exactly 15 objects is the only way for the Goblin Game player to win at all, let alone with just 4 of those Games.

.

The code is below.

gamesneededtobeat = [[55 for y in range(50)] for x in range(50)]

for x in range(1,50):
gamesneededtobeat[x][0] = 0

def result_of_choices_(xstartswith,ystartswith,xchooses,ychooses):
if xchooses <= ychooses:
xendswith = (xstartswith-xchooses)-((1+xstartswith-xchooses)//2)
else:
xendswith = xstartswith-xchooses
if ychooses <= xchooses:
yendswith = (ystartswith-ychooses)-((1+ystartswith-ychooses)//2)
else:
yendswith = ystartswith-ychooses
return gamesneededtobeat[max(0,xendswith)][max(0,yendswith)]

for sumoflifetotals in range(2,50):
for xstartswith in range(2,sumoflifetotals):
ystartswith = sumoflifetotals-xstartswith
gamesneededtobeat[xstartswith][ystartswith] = 1+min(max(result_of_choices_(xstartswith,ystartswith,xchooses,ychooses) for ychooses in range(1,2+xchooses)) for xchooses in range(1,max(2,xstartswith)))

print(gamesneededtobeat[26][20])
print(gamesneededtobeat[27][20])
print(sorted(set(max(result_of_choices_(27,20,xchooses,ychooses) for ychooses in range(1,2+xchooses)) for xchooses in range(1,27))))
print([xchooses for xchooses in range(1,27) if max(result_of_choices_(27,20,xchooses,ychooses) for ychooses in range(1,2+xchooses)) == 3])

dte

10-17-2022, 05:42 AM

Deadline is tomorrow, and only two decks received.

This time it is really tomorrow!

silkster

10-18-2022, 01:02 PM

Are other people late too? My braining is churning as fast as it can!

dte

10-18-2022, 01:03 PM

And here are the decks for the final round!

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22

silkster

10-18-2022, 01:09 PM

no, it is only you among the "sure" ones. I will post at 19h10, send something before then!

I actually just posted before seeing your post, then edited so you could not see it. I will start editing the spreadsheet, so do not open it.

Thanks! I sent something in just now. A few minutes ago I had what felt like a brilliant idea, but it couldn't quite beat the target decks. So instead I just used half the idea.

dte

10-18-2022, 01:20 PM

The excel spreadsheet is updated!

My scores for the final round:

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
Me, being not very original.

GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
6-0, you deal me 1 fast enough.
6

Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
6-0, any of your spells kill me. But if only I had thought of Urbog instead of pact! It is a great solution vs land that hurt.
12

Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
2-2, we stare
14

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
0-6, I beat that.
14

RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
6-0, lich does not care about life loss, only damage.
20

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
6-0, you can always kill me.
26

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
6-0, you kill me.
32

BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
0-6. If I understand correctly APNAP rules and that forsaken wastes has been errated, You lose just before winning :/
32

jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
6-0, you kill me.
38

FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
2-2, I think we stare
40

Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
0-6, Again I think APNAP and errata should have me.
40

dte

10-18-2022, 01:21 PM

Thanks! I sent something in just now. A few minutes ago I had what felt like a brilliant idea, but it couldn't quite beat the target decks. So instead I just used half the idea.

So what was the other half?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-18-2022, 01:35 PM

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
I don't play it out vs summoner's pact. Blame modern.
0-2, 6pts.

GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
CANNON SMASH! (Literally. It attacks!)
0-2, 12 points

Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
Urborg pals! We shake hands, like the Urborg buds we are, and ID. It's round 8 after all, and it's a long drive home.
0-0-2, 14 pts.

Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
I'm just happy to be beating dark Depths
2-0

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
The lands deck I can't lose to!
2-0

RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
Chose march, you went Opalescence.
2-0

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
According to the program I wrote you win t2 when you cast Mana Clash. It's proprietary so you can't see it. But it's professional, so you have to trust it.
0-2. 20pts

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
What a deck! What a smart and beautiful deck!

BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
If you go first you can cast the Reactor before I can march dem machines (which kills your mox).
1-1 23pts

jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
2-0

FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
2-0

Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22[/QUOTE]
Losing to Darksteel reactor the old fashioned way. Where it punches me in the face.
0-2 29 points.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-18-2022, 01:37 PM

The excel spreadsheet is updated!
FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
6-0, you kill me.

I snap concede to summoner's pact. You, having perfect information know how many times I've done this, know I will in all formats including 4cb. So it's 2-0 you, zero points.

FTW

10-18-2022, 01:42 PM

FTW: Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25+upkeep

I wanted to play Simic Guildgate, Eladamri's Vineyard, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex to play around pain mana but realized it could not beat any of the target decks.

1. dte(TO): lol pseudo-mirror. Whoever resolves first wins, since opponent takes upkeep first. You have T5 Show and Tell. I can only do T6 Hypergenesis. You win both. LL 6-0
2. GoblinSmashmaster: If I ever play Hypergenesis, you get Cannon + mana to deal damage so Vortex would kill me. LL 6-0
3. Dooey: You can wait till Vortex gets me to 10 life and then kill me. LL 6-0
4. Asthereal: This is where Vineyard would help. You can't win. I can't beat your lifegain. But can you even beat a target deck? DD 2-2?
5. Reeplcheep: Same as Asthereal, except you can beat Biorhythm and can't gain life. WW 0-6
6. RoosterCocoa: Ha, one of my decks had Oath of Mages but I didn't see the combo with Lich. Clever! WW 0-6
7. Symbi: If I cast Hypergenesis I lose, but you can't play yours first either. DD 2-2
8. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: You can deal me damage. LL 6-0
9. BirdsOfParadise: Edit: Vortex trigger goes on top of Reactor trigger, so I can win in response. WW 0-6
10. jfb1337: You can deal 1 damage before turn 25. LL 6-0
12. Silkster: Edit: Illegal deck

34 points (10 loss, 4 draw, 6 wins)

Other decks I had for this round:
Mana Confluence, Molten Slagheap, Urza's Rage, Hidetsugu's Second Rite GT17 at 4 life
Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Molten Slagheap, Rusting Golem, Hidetsugu's Second Rite GT9 at 4 life (more fragile but could be too fast)
Karplusan Forest, Teferi's Isle, Oath of Mages, Shock GT22 at 1 life (this seemed too good at winning. Lich is better)
Teferi's Isle, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dark Depths, Mana Vault GT22 at 1 life (too slow to race faster Ajani clock)
Calciform Pools, Veldt, Reduce to Dreams, Draco GT94 (beats Lich's Mastery)

silkster

10-18-2022, 01:42 PM

ILLEGAL DECK: Read for Fun Only

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
Show and Tell lets me win, but tapping Mana Vault lets you win. DD
I was so preoccupied with getting a free Darksteel Reactor that I didn't realize that your Wastes trigger will resolve first on my 20th post school presentation upkeep.
LL

GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty sure you can do 1 damage before turn 20.
LL

Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
Ooh, Urborg is a nice touch against people playing intentionally bad lands. You can get to Rites mana before I go below 10, and if I do nothing you can eventually cast both in one turn. Lucky for me, neither my mana sources does damage to me right away.
LL

Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
I almost submitted something very close to this, but I wanted to something something newish. I think taking damage while not dealing damage is a very good way to go. I also couldn't quite make it work because I thought the Ajani deck could win on turn 21. Lion Sash can get 1 damage in early, and Biorhythm kills you.
WW for now

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
Ah, Kher Keep to beat the Biorhythm deck. You only end up doing 10 or 11 damage to yourself, but you get the benefit of being able to play Depths.
WW

RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
Oooh, that's a cool use of Lich. I've long known that Oath of Mages is a terrible card that does damage and I tried briefly to make it work, but couldn't see it actually winning. And I was just reading how weird the original Lich was while reviewing Lich's Mastery, but I didn't put them together.
Same result as against dte.
DD
Edit: No longer the same as against dte, but still a draw since Oath of Mages triggers on your upkeep.

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
At first I was like "a 1/3? That's way too powerful!" Then I was like, oh, Mana Vault. So you must need Mana Clash to race your own Vault. And I remembered that Mana Clash did damage in a stupid way, but I had to read it before I realized that it's the Flamebreather trigger that matters. I appreciate that the self destruction on Mana Clash is even more immediate than on Summoner's Pact.
[strike]In any case, I do too much damage to myself. LL [\strike]
Shield Sphere plays too much defense to lose, though not so much defense as to allow me to win.
DD

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
I play a big artifact. :(
WW
I'm curious what Torpor Orb is for. My instinct would have been to go for Cursed Totem so that you can salvage a draw against the Manticore. I'm also now curious about the Urborg that you don't have to play. Did you mean to use a Time Spiral charge land that requires mana to charge? Even still, March is cool tech.

BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
Wow, Flame Blitz is really dumb! My mana is too fast. I shouldn't have been worried about being able to make mana every turn.
WW

jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
You can get the first point of damage in too quickly.
LL

FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
[strike]Same as against dte and RoosterCocoa. DD[\strike]
Still same as dte.
LL

Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
Squeaking in at the last second. I really wanted to play Rith's Lair, Eladamri's Vineyard, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, but it wasn't beating the target decks.

I wanted to play Dark Depths as a thing to lose life towards without doing damage along the way, but I couldn't find a good way to lose 19 life, be slow, and still beat any of the targets. I thought about running back the same Flailing Manticore deck as before. Last week there were 5 storage lands to beat. It felt like there were a lot of storage lands this week, but there were really only 3, but it felt like more because I winced with regret each time I saw one.

I'm not surprised to see a bunch of Mana Vaults and Dark Depths. I am surprised to see no Flailing Manticores and no Eladamri's Vineyards. It is true that Chancellor of the Tangle gave it a lot of its power.

10L, 4D, 8W = 34

Symbi

10-18-2022, 01:43 PM

My scores for the final round:

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
Me, being not very original.

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
6-0, you can always kill me.
26

Objection! While you lose if you cast show and tell first, casting flamebreather first is not a winning line for me. After flamebreather is in play, I will lose 1 life per turn to mana vault while you will lose 1 life per turn due to me attacking. However, you can then freely cast show and tell to put forsaken wastes into play. Then I will lose life first, meaning that during my turns, I will always have a lower life total than you. As you have to be at 1 life for me to safely cast mana clash, I don't. Then both of us take 2 per turn, but I take 2 damage first. Therefore this is a draw.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-18-2022, 01:46 PM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
I play a big artifact. :(
WW
I'm curious what Torpor Orb is for. My instinct would have been to go for Cursed Totem so that you can salvage a draw against the Manticore. I'm also now curious about the Urborg that you don't have to play. Did you mean to use a Time Spiral charge land that requires mana to charge? Even still, March is cool tech.

Urborg stops pain and suicide lands.
Orb stops people with suicide creatures, or negative ETB effects.

silkster

10-18-2022, 01:53 PM

Urborg stops pain and suicide lands.
Orb stops people with suicide creatures, or negative ETB effects.

The Urborg makes sense, but you don't haven't forced your deck to play it, so you just never would in games where it matters. The Torpor Orb makes sense if you can think of any creatures with negative ETB effects, but I am not that clever!

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-18-2022, 01:54 PM

The Urborg makes sense, but you don't haven't forced your deck to play it, so you just never would in games where it matters. The Torpor Orb makes sense if you can think of any such creatures, but I am not that clever!

SOMEONE kept playing a champion dude.

silkster

10-18-2022, 01:56 PM

SOMEONE kept playing a champion dude.

Oh, the Boggart and the Goblin Assassin! I see you.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-18-2022, 01:58 PM

Oh and I think phage saw play too?

Symbi

10-18-2022, 02:00 PM

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
At first I was like "a 1/3? That's way too powerful!" Then I was like, oh, Mana Vault. So you must need Mana Clash to race your own Vault. And I remembered that Mana Clash did damage in a stupid way, but I had to read it before I realized that it's the Flamebreather trigger that matters. I appreciate that the self destruction on Mana Clash is even more immediate than on Summoner's Pact.
In any case, I do too much damage to myself.
LL

Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
Squeaking in at the last second. I really wanted to play Rith's Lair, Eladamri's Vineyard, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, but it wasn't beating the target decks.

8L, 6D, 8W = 30

Objection! I can't beat shield sphere. So this is a draw.

silkster

10-18-2022, 02:07 PM

Objection! I can't beat shield sphere. So this is a draw.

Sustained!

RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
6-0, lich does not care about life loss, only damage.
Did you choose Wastes of Roiling Vortex because you saw this coming? I'm prepared to be very impressed.

FTW

10-18-2022, 02:11 PM

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
Me, being not very original.

FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
2-2, I think we stare
40

I think you win both. You can resolve Show and Tell (T5) before I resolve Hypergenesis (T6). If you resolve first, my upkeep triggers first before yours, so I am always behind in the damage race. I can't even play my Vortex off your Show and Tell (if I've suspended first), because Vortex will deal me 5 damage.

Did you choose Wastes of Roiling Vortex because you saw this coming? I'm prepared to be very impressed.

Likewise. I never thought that far ahead. Clever tech!!

BirdsOfParadise

10-18-2022, 02:12 PM

Silkster, are you targeting the Biorhythm deck? How do you win if you deploy Reactor and then they go Biorhythm on their own turn? You go to 1 life, then it becomes your turn, and doesn’t Mana Vault kill you?

FTW, can you not safely go Hypergenesis against me and then win twenty turns later on my upkeep because of APNAP?

Does anyone know when GoblinSmashmaster is first able to deal 1 damage? (Not win, just ping once?)

silkster

10-18-2022, 02:13 PM

silkster, are you targeting the biorhythm deck? How do you win if you deploy reactor and then they go biorhythm on their own turn? You go to 1 life, then it becomes your turn, and doesn’t mana vault kill you?

UH OH! That's not good. I needed to pick Ornithopter/Walker to block Lion's Sash forever, I guess. Cruelly, I don't think that would change any matchups. I flew too close to the sun!

On the "bright side" I was already out of the running for first, so this loss isn't the deal breaker. On the other hand, fixing both dumb mistakes probably would have won it for me. On the third hand, 3/4 of an inch in the other direction and I would have missed completely.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-18-2022, 02:16 PM

The Urborg makes sense, but you don't haven't forced your deck to play it, so you just never would in games where it matters. The Torpor Orb makes sense if you can think of any creatures with negative ETB effects, but I am not that clever!

Yeah, I picked the wrong storage land and it's why I beat the dark depth decks.

FTW

10-18-2022, 02:19 PM

Squeaking in at the last second. I really wanted to play Rith's Lair, Eladamri's Vineyard, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, but it wasn't beating the target decks.

I wanted to play Dark Depths as a thing to lose life towards without doing damage along the way, but I couldn't find a good way to lose 19 life, be slow, and still beat any of the targets.

I'm not surprised to see a bunch of Mana Vaults and Dark Depths. I am surprised to see no Flailing Manticores and no Eladamri's Vineyards. It is true that Chancellor of the Tangle gave it a lot of its power.

I wanted to play Teferi's Isle, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dark Depths, Mana Vault (GT22 at 1 life) but it couldn't race the Ajani deck after we corrected the math. That's why I asked about it when the round started.

I wanted to play Vineyard too (with Hypergenesis), but it couldn't beat the target decks. It helped both the Biorhythm deck and the Ajani deck too much, so you would need to build to beat Lich. But neither Hypergenesis nor Manticore can beat the Lich deck. I guess no one else found a way to use it either. Maybe Desecration Elemental.

FTW

10-18-2022, 02:26 PM

Silkster, are you targeting the Biorhythm deck? How do you win if you deploy Reactor and then they go Biorhythm on their own turn? You go to 1 life, then it becomes your turn, and doesn’t Mana Vault kill you?

Good point. Normally silkster can stack the Reactor trigger on top, but Reactor won't have enough counters then.
Shield Sphere does block Lion Sash 6 times. I think that's not enough.

FTW, can you not safely go Hypergenesis against me and then win twenty turns later on my upkeep because of APNAP?

Oh good point. They both take 20 upkeeps but mine will trigger first. WW 0-6

Does anyone know when GoblinSmashmaster is first able to deal 1 damage? (Not win, just ping once?)

He could cast Cannon with City + flipped Treasure Map + 1 treasure, only consuming 1 treasure once Hallowed Ground is in play and Map has flipped twice (Turn 9). After that he can always threaten to fire Cannon once with City (0 treasures). More once more treasures are created.

BirdsOfParadise

10-18-2022, 02:33 PM

Silkster, I was literally in the middle of PMing “our” deck to dte with Kobolds of Kher Keep, and typing out my explanation of how I beat the target, when I saw that Biorhythm line. I feel you!

Thank you, FTW, for walking me through this instance of Treasure Map + Hallowed Ground math, a combo which has haunted my dreams ever since dte used it in R1.

BirdsOfParadise

10-18-2022, 03:10 PM

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
It appears that APNAP favors me.
LL (0 + 6 = 6)

GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
If I deploy my win condition, you ping me first and I lose to my Mana Vault. So I don't deploy my win condition. So you build up treasure tokens and eventually win.
LL (6 + 6 = 12)

Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
If I tap Mana Vault, you can wait until I'm in HSR range and then kill me.
If I don't tap Mana Vault, you can save up enough storage to cast Sorin's Vengeance and HSR in one turn.
LL (12 + 6 = 18)

Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
I'm GT25 dealing no damage.
LL (18 + 6 = 24)

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
I'm GT25 dealing no damage.
LL (24 + 6 = 30)

RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
If I play out Mana Vault -> Darksteel Reactor, you put Oath of Mages in play and the damage will kill me (together with Mana Vault).
If I don't play out Mana Vault, you could try Hypergenesis, but it looks like then I win on my upkeep the turn before you'd win on your upkeep. So I think we stare.
DD (30 + 2 = 32)

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
I believe you can just play your cards and win. If I use my Mana Vault, I'll lose to your damage.
LL (32 + 6 = 38)

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
I believe that when you're on the play, you can get March of the Machines in play the turn before I can get Darksteel Reactor in play. March of the Machines
kills Mox Tantalite, and then Torpor Orb 2/2 >>> Mana Vault 1/1 that can't untap.
When I'm on the play, though, I can get Darksteel Reactor out, and either I win with charge counters or you play March of the Machines and I win with a 4/4.
WL (38 + 3 = 41)

BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT 25
That's me, sorry for not including my GT. It's 25, not 24.

jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
Alas, Flame Blitz crushes The Royal Scions.
WW (41 + 0 = 41)

FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
It appears that APNAP favors me.
LL (41 + 6 = 47)

Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
No Silkster :(

Total: 47 pt

My other decks for this round:
Sand Silos, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dreams of the Dead, Swamp Mosquito = Beats Biorhythm, deals no damage, GT > 110.
Sand Silos, Academy Ruins, Keldon Battlewagon, Mystic Might = Beats Biorhythm, slowest clock I can think of (>700, I think),
but unfortunately deals the first point of damage pretty easily. Fails versus Roiling Vortex, etc.

My best idea I never got to use:
Sand Silos, Enter the Infinite, Haunting Imitation, Desecration Elemental
I think this might have been good in the round when Impatience / Power Artifact was a target deck.

The Flailing creature that got away:
Warmonger
It was always on my mind, and I hoped to surprise (?) people with it, but the stars never aligned. People started to gravitate away from storage lands and
towards low-mana decks that couldn't sustain any damage. One way I wanted to get it into play was Mox Tantalite, Sol Talisman, Mercadian Lift.

@FTW: I dig that Draco!

silkster

10-18-2022, 03:23 PM

Silkster, I was literally in the middle of PMing “our” deck to dte with Kobolds of Kher Keep, and typing out my explanation of how I beat the target, when I saw that Biorhythm line. I feel you!

Ah right. Of course, you were the one playing the same strategy, so you were at the ready to recognize that it wasn't legal. Congratulations on your season victory! I can take solace that I found approximately the same deck as the winner this week.

In other news, I've decided to run the WUBRG season first, in part for the selfish reason that I will be less likely to submit an entirely invalid deck. New thread here: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33800-4-Card-Blind-The-Silkster-Seasons

The first round isn't open yet. I'm undecided on whether to wait a week in between the end of this season and the start of the next one.

silkster

10-18-2022, 03:58 PM

Sand Silos, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dreams of the Dead, Swamp Mosquito = Beats Biorhythm, deals no damage, GT > 110.

The Flailing creature that got away:
Warmonger
It was always on my mind, and I hoped to surprise (?) people with it, but the stars never aligned. People started to gravitate away from storage lands and
towards funky decks that couldn't sustain any damage. One way I wanted to get it into play was Mox Tantalite, Sol Talisman, Mercadian Lift.

That Swamp Mosquito deck is gorgeous. If I'd thought of something so clever, I wouldn't have been able to stop myself from submitting it.

I was watching out for Warmonger every round, but its ability to do a bunch of damage before dying made it get draws too easily. I was long ago trying to power it out with 2x Eladamri's Vineyard. I also wanted to try Ifh-Biff Efreet (with Vineyard, of course), though I was never confident that an opponent could produce :G:.
The other deck pre-Wastes that I was excited for was Gemstone Mine, Eladamri's Vineyard, Quicksilver Wall, Animate Wall.

In my first brewing for the season, I landed on Lava Tube, Dreadship Reef, Faerie Tauntings, Corpse Dance, which had a GT of 202, so it only went WL against Helix Pinnacle. I revised it to City of Brass, Bottomless Vault, Faerie Tauntings, Whispers of the Muse (GT:120) and for a few weeks I thought I was always going to play this deck the following week, but I kept finding better.

I didn't expect the decks to get so much weaker in the first few weeks as people submitted decks whose win condition relied on the opponent's cards, though perhaps I should have. My coolest idea for week 1 was Bottomless Vault, Soldevi Digger, Inquisition, Sleeper Agent. The problem was that it was able to salvage far too many draws by being able to kill opponents at 2 life. It was because of this deck that my uncastables were always white but I didn't expect Mindslaver and Word of Command, or I'd have played Intervention Pact.

Other decks I've long considered:
Hollow Trees, Soldevi Digger, Kamahl's Summons, Leyline of Lightning,
Merdcadian Bazaar, Harmless Offering, Magnivore, other card, (almost played it this week with Desperate Ritual to be fast enough against Biorhythm)
From before the Wastes-beating requirement:
Lotus Bloom, Hall of the Bandit Lord, Gemstone Mine, Energy Vortex,
River Delta, Dreadship Reef, Want of Ith, Nameless Race,
Dwarven Hold, Harmless Offering, Culling Dais, Ancient Runes
which could have been updated to use Chromatic Orrery instead.

Reeplcheep

10-18-2022, 04:30 PM

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23 TD: Brain in a Jar

A slight change to my previous deck that trades going off at 1 life for 0 lifegain. I didn’t think my deck WW’d vs any deck, and I thought impatience style decks would be played.

I beat 4x wastes by making marit lage on t22 at 10 life (3 turns to play my mana producing lands, 19 to remove counters) and then attacking. I beat charbeltcher in a similar fashion, after taking two turns and 1 life to make a kobold. I can’t combo if the goldfish goes off, but the goldfish will die to pact a turn late.

DTE, summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
You do 10 damage to me before I can combo. LL 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
WW 0-6

Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
Pain lands means you can’t win, but neither can I after you dome me for 10. DD 2-2
You can’t Drain me without letting my depths tap for mana. WW 0-6

Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
I wasn’t sure this beat the target decks? Pseudo mirror, lages stare. DD 2-2

RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
You deal 10 damage to me before I can combo. LL 6-0

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
You are faster and I can’t combo once you deal the first 10. LL 6-0

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
You are faster and making kobolds only delays the inevitable. LL 6-0

BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 25
I’m slightly faster. WW 0-6

jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
WW 0-6. This is the disadvantage of my new version.

FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
I can’t gain life, and you deal 10 before I can combo. LL 6-0

Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
Unlike BoP, you are faster than me. LL 6-0. Illegal anyways?

If FTW isn’t legal, 8W 10 L 4 DQ = 42/66

BirdsOfParadise

10-18-2022, 04:46 PM

[snip silkster’s secret tech]
That is a fun read, Silkster. It’s amazing how many clever ideas other players are having that one never learns about. Still, you and I had a bit of overlap: We were both wondering if we dared use Efreet + Vineyard :D

It hurt me not to use the Swamp Mosquito deck. I like decks with old cards and decks with animals. Your kind words are a balm (for me and for the poor overlooked bug ^^)

jfb1337

10-18-2022, 04:59 PM

Dang, that's a lot of low GTs, which probably mean a lot of decks that are fragile to early damage

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win

GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
LL 6-0 You're faster

Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
WW 6-0 I ping *myself* and you can't win

Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
LL 6-0 You can handle taking up to 9 damage

RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27
WW 0-6 You die to my ping if you play lich, so you can't win and I kill you

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
LL 6-0 Torpor orb attacks down my scions

BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
LL 6-0 Nice flame blitz

jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
That's me!

FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win

Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
WW 0-6 I ping you and you can't win

Total: 8L = 24

Other ideas I had at various points:
Sand silos, Desecration elemental, Haunting immitation, Brainstorm - BirdsOfParadise has the better version with enter the infinite

Vedlt, Draco, a charge land, and another card; GT98 - There was always a slower clock available

Sulfur vent, Sulfer vent, Jace, the Living Guildpact, Aetherflux Resivior; GT~190 - I liked the idea of having to repeatedly ult a planeswalker to make progress (and tried it out this round); but Jace's -3, as well as the other abilities of other pws I considered, felt too disruptive.

Forbidden Orchard, Icatian Moneychanger, Calciform pools, Myojin of seeing winds; GT152 - I almost submitted this round 1, but I wanted to save the tech until I could go for a longer clock. Draco was better at ~900ish, but my best version was:

Forbidden orchard, Icatian Moneychanger, Mage ring network, Secret Door. An absolute nightmare to calculate the precise GT of; I would have tried to write a program to do so; but I estimate somewhere in the 10,000s (given 37 ventures into Tomb of Annihalation to win (the other dungeons don't seem worthwhile), costing 185 mana; and the amount of life needed grows quadratically. But given that I create my own 4/4 creatures that can block or trade with theirs, it gets extremely messy to determine the overall possible decision space).
But then forbidden orchard got banned round 1.

BirdsOfParadise

10-18-2022, 05:27 PM

Jfb1337, how does that deck with Icatian Moneychanger, Myojin of Seeing Winds, Forbidden Orchard, and Calciform Pools... win? OH Wow I figured it out in real time while typing. Geez. You save a billion life with moneychanger while blocking one spirit, and only then do you start storing storage counters while giving the opponent more spirits. A bit like dte’s Change of Heart + Varchild’s War Riders deck. With Draco that’s magnificent.

Doing the same thing with Secret Door into Tomb of Annihilation is utter madness.

I may or may not have a deck with GT 21 that really cares whether this is 21, 22 or 23.
When you posted this, I concluded that you must be talking about a deck that didn’t deal any damage, because a deck that did damage would actually win sooner against Rooster’s target deck, removing the need for a perfect assessment of Rooster’s goldfish; therefore, when I saw Darksteel Reactor, I guessed that you had in mind Black Lotus, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor. I expected you to be on a deck very similar to mine this round. In fact, as I was dorking out to my wife about this round, we referred to the deck I ended up using as “FTW’s deck.” I thought I had you figured out, and part of my interest in the Swamp Mosquito deck was that it scores points against “FTW’s deck”!

Symbi

10-18-2022, 06:24 PM

1. dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep

A draw for reasons I mentioned earlier. DD 2-2, 2 total.

2. GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150

If I tap mana vault immediately you cannon me once and I die. If I wait, you build up enough mana and cannon me to death. LL 6-0, 8 total.

3. Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11

You cast Sorin's Vengeance, giving me the choice between dying to mana vault or Hidetsugu's second rite. LL 6-0, 14 total.

4. Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23

I can't beat Seraph Sanctuary. DD 2-2, 16 total.

5. Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23

I'm faster, and your manabase is too painful. WW 0-6, 16 total.

6. RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27

I can always deal 2 damage on the turn after you put lich into play. WW 0-6, 16 total.

7. Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22

That's me!

8. FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16

I get beaten down by Torpor Orb. LL 6-0, 22 total.

9. BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24

If you try to do anything you die to mana vault. WW 0-6, 22 total.

10. jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178

You ping me too early, and attacking your planeswalker doesn't help as I will die to mana vault. LL 6-0, 28 total.

11. FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25

Same as dte, hypergenesis loses for you if I have my creature in hand but wins if I have already played my creature. DD 2-2, 30 total.

12. Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22

Illegal deck. N/A 0-0, 30 total.

RoosterCocoa

10-18-2022, 11:37 PM

RoosterCocoa, Lotus Bloom, Hypergenesis, Oath of Mages, Lich, GT27

dte(TO), summoner's pact, forsaken wastes, show and tell, sand silos, GT25+upkeep
Forsaken wasters can't beat lich. WW

GoblinSmashmaster, City of Traitors, Treasure Map, Hallowed Ground, Goblin Cannon, GT150
You just need 4 mana to kill me when I have Lich in play, since Hypergenesis lets you play Goblin Cannon for free. It takes you four turns to play Treasure Map and tap it 3 times, and each time you do this aside from the first gains you a treasure, and the final time you get all 3 treasures since you don't need to bounce Treasure Map. This means you have more than enough time to kill me. LL

Dooey, Hidetsugu's Second Rite, Molten Slagheap, Sorin’s Vengeance, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, GT11
You are much too fast for me. LL

Asthereal, Dark Depths, Boseiju, who shelters all, Seraph Sanctuary, Veldt, GT23
I damage you too quickly. WW

Reeplcheep, Dark Depths, Barbarian Ring, Kher Keep, Veldt, GT23
I damage you too quickly. WW

Symbi, Mana Vault, Kessig Flamebreather, Forgotten Cave, Mana Clash, GT22
You can attack me with a creature. LL

FourDogsinaHorseSuit, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sand Silos, Torpor Orb, March of the Machines, GT c. 16
You can attack me with a creature. LL

BirdsOfParadise, Darksteel Reactor, Flame Blitz, Mana Vault, Mox Tantalite, GT c. 24
If you tap Mana Vault, I win, but if I play Hypergenesis you win. DD

jfb1337, Calciform Pools, Gemstone Mine, The Royal Scions, Nexus of Fate, GT178
You damage me before I can win. LL

FTW, Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25
Roiling Vortex beats Lich. LL

Silkster, Gemstone Mine, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor, Shield Sphere, GT c. 22
Illegal deck

6W 2D 12L = 38

I decided to submit this after spending weeks trying and failing to find a way to make Lich's Mastery plus Time Bomb work, since I wanted to find a way that forced me to kill my opponent in one shot but couldn't find a good way to stop myself from playing Time Bomb and waiting to play Mastery until Time Bomb had enough counters.

One deck I've had for a while is Norin the Wary, Hypergenesis, Quicksilver Dagger, which seems like the best version of the Standstill deck but we unfortunately never had an all land target deck after I thought of it.

Asthereal

10-19-2022, 06:04 AM

FTW: Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25+upkeep

4. Asthereal: This is where Vineyard would help. You can't win. I can't beat your lifegain. But can you even beat a target deck? DD 2-2?

I stole this deck because it looks strong, yet it's supposed to be faster (4 turns, according to the sheet) than the Ajani deck and doesn't interact with it at all before the final swing.
But if that score is more than 3 turns off, perhaps that would make my deck illegal.
I'm sure I beat the Wastes, but the other two sample decks should score against me.

EDIT: so let's analyse:
Grand Coliseum, Hickory Woodlot, Reito Lantern, Ajani, Sleeper Agent

EDIT2: As dte explains below, I miscalculated because the phyrexian mana makes Ajani enter with just 2 loyalty. Let's redo the analysis.

So this deck makes Woodlot, Lantern, retrieve Woodlot, Ajani, tick up Ajani towards ultimate, retrieve Woodlot again, then start the cycle.
The cycle means: use Woodlot, retrieve Woodlot (or you get stuck), and we have to cast Ajani and then retrieve Ajani.
We have to alternate using Woodlot to cast or retrieve Ajani, and using Woodlot to retrieve itself, or the cycle stops.
So the cycle would theoretically take 4 turns to complete, and it deals 2 poison each round, so 20 turns minus casting Ajani the final time, which is immediately lethal. So 17 turns for the cycle, assuming we can start on blank.
We can't just kill our own Ajani. The -3 only works if we have 3 loyalty on it. So we have to either +1 and then -3, or +1, +1, +1, +1, -6 making an extra emblem. So the cycle could also be three turns slower, but add and extra emblem speeding things up again.
Let's put it all together.

The start is as follows:
1: Play Woodlot (tapped)
2: Cast Lantern (W1), play Coliseum (tapped)
3: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot
4: Cast Ajani, +1 (3)
5: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot, Ajani +1 (4)
6: Ajani +1 (5)
7: Ajani +1 (6)
8: Ajani -6, Ajani dies, make emblem 1, retrieve Ajani (W1)
9: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot. Draw Ajani. End my turn.
10: Draw Woodlot, play Woodlot (tapped).

From here, the cycle starts, and I get to either go for the shorter cycle:
11: Play Ajani, make 2 poison, +1 Ajani (3)
12: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot, -3 Ajani, killing it.
13: Upkeep: retrieve Ajani, draw Ajani.
14: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw Woodlot, play Woodlot.
Repeating:
15: make 2 poison
19: make 2 poison
23: make 2 poison
27: kill the opponent - hence the original idea of GT27.

Or we can go:
11: Play Ajani, make 2 poison, +1 Ajani (3)
12: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot, Ajani +1 (4)
13: Ajani +1 (5)
14: Ajani +1 (6)
15: Ajani -6, create second emblem, retrieve Ajani
16: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw Ajani
17: Draw Woodlot, play it (tapped)

18: Play Ajani, make 4 poison, +1 Ajani (3)
19: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot, Ajani -3, killing Ajani
20: Upkeep: retrieve Ajani, draw Ajani
21: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot (tapped)

22: Play Ajani, make 4 poison, killing the opponent.

New analysis confirms why the original idea was GT27, but shows the Ajani deck is actually GT22, unless I missed something again.
That still invalidates my deck though.

dte

10-19-2022, 08:31 AM

Big congrats on BirdsOfParadise for the season victory!
Consistency and inventiveness deservedly rewarded :)

FTW: Teferi's Isle, Flooded Grove, Hypergenesis, Roiling Vortex, GT25+upkeep

1. dte(TO): lol pseudo-mirror. Whoever resolves first wins, since opponent takes upkeep first. You have T5 Show and Tell. I can only do T6 Hypergenesis. You win both. LL 6-0

I think you win both. You can resolve Show and Tell (T5) before I resolve Hypergenesis (T6). If you resolve first, my upkeep triggers first before yours, so I am always behind in the damage race. I can't even play my Vortex off your Show and Tell (if I've suspended first), because Vortex will deal me 5 damage.

I do no think so. You do not play anything. If I play S&T, you do not reveal anything. Then you time your Isle well to be able to time your hypergenesis well, for me to start losing life by 2, and win at 1 life. So I cannot play S&T and we stare.

Objection! While you lose if you cast show and tell first, casting flamebreather first is not a winning line for me. After flamebreather is in play, I will lose 1 life per turn to mana vault while you will lose 1 life per turn due to me attacking. However, you can then freely cast show and tell to put forsaken wastes into play. Then I will lose life first, meaning that during my turns, I will always have a lower life total than you. As you have to be at 1 life for me to safely cast mana clash, I don't. Then both of us take 2 per turn, but I take 2 damage first. Therefore this is a draw.

Sustained!

Urborg stops pain and suicide lands.
Orb stops people with suicide creatures, or negative ETB effects.

Those two are very clever. Had I thought about it, I would have play The green urbog rather than a pact, or better still, urbog + green urbog + a land that makes D.

Did you choose Wastes of Roiling Vortex because you saw this coming? I'm prepared to be very impressed.

I choste wastes because I like (and know) mirage cards much better than modern ones. Also a little bit because I tried to play so much with grove of the burnwillows. In insight, as a lich-style was in the target decks, we could have thought of lich.
But Roostercocoa did, I didn't.

UH OH! That's not good. I needed to pick Ornithopter/Walker to block Lion's Sash forever, I guess. Cruelly, I don't think that would change any matchups. I flew too close to the sun!

On the "bright side" I was already out of the running for first, so this loss isn't the deal breaker. On the other hand, fixing both dumb mistakes probably would have won it for me. On the third hand, 3/4 of an inch in the other direction and I would have missed completely.

Sorry to read that, it always feels terrible :/

In other news, I've decided to run the WUBRG season first, in part for the selfish reason that I will be less likely to submit an entirely invalid deck. New thread here: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33800-4-Card-Blind-The-Silkster-Seasons

Very nice, and looking forward to this new season :)
And also kind of relieved mine is finished, even if it was running much smoother at the end.

Sand Silos, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dreams of the Dead, Swamp Mosquito = Beats Biorhythm, deals no damage, GT > 110.
Sand Silos, Academy Ruins, Keldon Battlewagon, Mystic Might = Beats Biorhythm, slowest clock I can think of (>700, I think),

Dreams of the Dead I thought would be an all star this season! I had it with mercenaries before I added the 4*wastes rule. But mostly I played it a lot in one of my first (terrible) decks, where I was playing it alongside the legends elder dragon legend (all of theme for the theme) and concordant crossroads. After I had quite a few variants, but I never dared to play them.
And this mystic might deck is truly sick!

Forbidden Orchard, Icatian Moneychanger, Calciform pools, Myojin of seeing winds; GT152 - I almost submitted this round 1, but I wanted to save the tech until I could go for a longer clock. Draco was better at ~900ish, but my best version was:

Forbidden orchard, Icatian Moneychanger, Mage ring network, Secret Door. An absolute nightmare to calculate the precise GT of; I would have tried to write a program to do so; but I estimate somewhere in the 10,000s (given 37 ventures into Tomb of Annihalation to win (the other dungeons don't seem worthwhile), costing 185 mana; and the amount of life needed grows quadratically. But given that I create my own 4/4 creatures that can block or trade with theirs, it gets extremely messy to determine the overall possible decision space).
But then forbidden orchard got banned round 1.

The Forbidden Orchard/Icatian Moneychanger interaction is a great find. I am kin of sad you could not play it.

9: Play Ajani, make 2 poison, +1 Ajani (5)

So unless I'm missing something, the Ajani deck is actually GT19 instead of the 21 mentioned above or the 27 that was mentioned in the decks post for round 7.

You have to use the phyrexian mana, So Ajani enters with only 2 loyalty counters. That explains the difference in turns.

The cards / concepts I missed the most playing were Dreams of the Dead, Tombstone stairwell (did I mention I like mirage?), 2x doomsday with touch of death or rhystic syphon (before the quadwastes rule), immortal coil / broodstar.

Symbi

10-19-2022, 08:38 AM

UH OH! That's not good. I needed to pick Ornithopter/Walker to block Lion's Sash forever, I guess. Cruelly, I don't think that would change any matchups. I flew too close to the sun!

On the "bright side" I was already out of the running for first, so this loss isn't the deal breaker. On the other hand, fixing both dumb mistakes probably would have won it for me. On the third hand, 3/4 of an inch in the other direction and I would have missed completely.

That would actually have changed your match against me from DD to WW. Edit: Wait nevermind

Asthereal

10-19-2022, 08:57 AM

You have to use the phyrexian mana, So Ajani enters with only 2 loyalty counters. That explains the difference in turns.
Missed that. Redid my analysis and edited the post again. I now come up at GT22, which is still faster than the deck I posted, so my deck is still illegal.

dte

10-19-2022, 09:40 AM

Missed that. Redid my analysis and edited the post again. I now come up at GT22, which is still faster than the deck I posted, so my deck is still illegal.

FTW came up with 21, and I never got why on the difference between 21 and 22.

I am truly sorry if both yours and Reep's decks would turn out to be illegal, while you both submitted your decks early and we started the whole discussion about the GT of the Ajani/poison deck last week because of a marit lage deck with GT23 :/

Reeplcheep

10-19-2022, 11:30 AM

FTW came up with 21, and I never got why on the difference between 21 and 22.

I am truly sorry if both yours and Reep's decks would turn out to be illegal, while you both submitted your decks early and we started the whole discussion about the GT of the Ajani/poison deck last week because of a marit lage deck with GT23 :/

I specifically ran Kher Keep to beat the hypergenesis biorhythm deck and not have to think about this

FTW

10-19-2022, 12:06 PM

21: Upkeep: use Woodlot, sac it, use mana to retrieve Woodlot, draw it, play Woodlot (tapped)
22: Play Ajani, make 4 poison, killing the opponent.

You can skip 21 and go to 22. Woodlot will die forever, but you don't need it after winning the game.
GT21.

That still makes your deck illegal and my other Depths idea illegal. It is a shame. I brought up the topic to avoid this exact scenario happening in the last round. I guess the spreadsheet was never corrected? Or perhaps players did not agree on my GT21?

I was so focused on playing bad cards that I did not realize you can just do this to speed up the clock 2 turns
Teferi's Isle, Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Dark Depths, Lotus Bloom GT20 at 2 life

I was stuck on the 4th card being Mana Vault (GT22 at 1 life), Simian Spirit Guide (GT22 at 2 life), Grim Monolith (GT22 at 2 life), or some other single-use +1 accelerant instead of a Lotus.

Another variation I had was Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sorrow's Path, Dark Depths, Mana Vault (GT13 at 1 life), but that seemed too fast.

dte

10-19-2022, 12:49 PM

I specifically ran Kher Keep to beat the hypergenesis deck and not have to think about this

Great to read that!

. I brought up the topic to avoid this exact scenario happening in the last round. I guess the spreadsheet was never corrected? Or perhaps players did not agree on my GT21?

I agreed on 21 or 22 and the spreadsheet was updated. But somehow I didn't realise when Asthereal posted his deck :/

Another variation I had was Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Sorrow's Path, Dark Depths, Mana Vault (GT13 at 1 life), but that seemed too fast.

Why would you lose life with this one?

FTW

10-19-2022, 12:57 PM

Why would you lose life with this one?

Sorrow's Path has 2 separate abilities. It has a triggered ability that damages you any time it is tapped, like City of Brass. Combining it with Urborg is sneaky tech to make a pseudo-City that gets 2 mana for 2 damage.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-19-2022, 12:57 PM

Great to read that!

I agreed on 21 or 22 and the spreadsheet was updated. But somehow I didn't realise when Asthereal posted his deck :/

Why would you lose life with this one?

Sorrow's Path has a city of brass clause

Asthereal

10-19-2022, 01:01 PM

You can skip 21 and go to 22. Woodlot will die forever, but you don't need it after winning the game.
GT21.

That still makes your deck illegal and my other Depths idea illegal. It is a shame. I brought up the topic to avoid this exact scenario happening in the last round. I guess the spreadsheet was never corrected? Or perhaps players did not agree on my GT21?
There we go. That's the final turn I missed. We indeed don't need to preserve the Woodlot anymore. GT21 it is.
Makes no real difference though, as my deck is GT23 and so I lose to Ajani and are therefor illegal.

Oh and don't sweat it, dte. It's my fault for not actually reading all the posts here and choosing something dumb without checking properly.
I'm not good at this backbuild thing anyway. I'll stick to the bottom spot then. Someone needs to hold the red lantern.

BirdsOfParadise

10-19-2022, 01:17 PM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-19-2022, 01:33 PM

To win a 4CB season while swimming with you savvy sharks is something I can be very proud of! I enjoyed discovering Backbuild with all of you. Thank you, dte, for organizing.

See you in the Silkster thread *cough*cough*and in my 4CB Mafia game*cough*cough*.

Edit: I was trying to make Sorrow’s Path + Urborg work! There were a lot of fun things we never got around to.

Path, donate, sands of time, storage land.
I almost submit the deck a whole bunch but the sands of time had a weird interaction with the first gen storage lands I missed and thought they wouldn't function

dte

10-19-2022, 01:46 PM

Path, donate, sands of time, storage land.
I almost submit the deck a whole bunch but the sands of time had a weird interaction with the first gen storage lands I missed and thought they wouldn't function

I wanted to submit a sands of time deck when one of the target decks used tefeiri's isle. Never thought of using it to kill though.

BirdsOfParadise

10-19-2022, 02:23 PM

That’s awesome, FourDogs.
Speaking of forcing painlands to tap, when we were pre-Wastes and a target deck had Lava Tubes and City of Brass for mana, I almost submitted a deck with Branded Brawlers and Power Surge as the win condition. It wins against the target but loses to, say, 4x Wastes, Masques storage lands, or regular land + Time Spiral storage lands. It draws against old storage lands (Sand Silos etc.), but it wins against things like City of Brass. That was the round where I (and a couple others) ended up just doing Hint of Insanity instead, but I was more excited about Power Surge, which I’d been reminded of after searching online for “worst Magic cards of all time” or something similar.

FTW

10-19-2022, 07:24 PM

When you posted this, I concluded that you must be talking about a deck that didn’t deal any damage, because a deck that did damage would actually win sooner against Rooster’s target deck, removing the need for a perfect assessment of Rooster’s goldfish; therefore, when I saw Darksteel Reactor, I guessed that you had in mind Black Lotus, Mana Vault, Darksteel Reactor. I expected you to be on a deck very similar to mine this round. In fact, as I was dorking out to my wife about this round, we referred to the deck I ended up using as “FTW’s deck.” I thought I had you figured out, and part of my interest in the Swamp Mosquito deck was that it scores points against “FTW’s deck”!

Congrats on the winning deck! Darksteel Reactor was an even better idea. I saw that card many times, but never put together how to make it suicidal enough (Mana Vault).

My Dreams of the Dead deck shell was
Saprazzan Cove, Dreams of the Dead, Flash, white or black 1/1 (usually with an ETB ability that let it beat a target deck)

I never ended up submitting it because it can still deal 1 damage quickly. Swamp Mosquito is brilliant.