30th Anniversary Edition - What Reserve List? [Archive]

PirateKing

10-04-2022, 11:09 AM

Not even the basic lands get to be tournament legal, what a joke.

I recently went to a card proxy store to make tokens for my wife's EDH deck since Blessed Sanctuary never had token made. They print everything with non-magic backs and make a big deal to cancel your order if you even attempt to upload a print file with OG magic backs. But from the front the cards are more than good enough for play. Sleeve them up in a nobody cares format like Commander and you'd never know otherwise. And at $1/card compared to the ~$17/card of this sham, nobody who knows better is going to get this stuff.

I'm seriously lost on who this is for. They make a big deal talking about how they're making extra dual lands and Sol Rings because those are the cards that are in demand, so they have some sense to allude to EDH players using these in place of the real thing, but what EDH player who's too poor to buy RL cards is going to have a extra $999 on hand? And then you get a bunch of neato Vintage cards that you can't even play in Commander? This should have been a limited print run sure, but $4/pack and let people pretend draft and then they could realize how bad Beta was as a set to play.

BirdsOfParadise

10-04-2022, 11:43 AM

Beta’s fun to play. My friend and I made a Cube out of one of every Beta card (minus dexterity and ante) on Cockatrice. It was a blast.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-04-2022, 12:42 PM

For damage-limit prices I'll just buy a real Trop

10-04-2022, 01:32 PM

I mean, I don't really need any of these cards. But I am sort of glad this exists. Still, stupid Hasbro pricing is stupid, no doubt about it. I don't know if I believe it, but I do sort of hope this is the start on a slippery slope. Just hopefully prices come down, availability goes up.

Zoid

10-04-2022, 02:07 PM

Note, I buried the lead, check that price. Yeah, a "box" is four packs and costs $1,000.

God help you when your $250 rare is Thoughtlace.

It's really nice of them to not put that in their article so that people can be even more hyped until their jaws drop at the price tag.

Not even the basic lands get to be tournament legal, what a joke.

...

I'm seriously lost on who this is for. They make a big deal talking about how they're making extra dual lands and Sol Rings because those are the cards that are in demand, so they have some sense to allude to EDH players using these in place of the real thing, but what EDH player who's too poor to buy RL cards is going to have a extra $999 on hand? And then you get a bunch of neato Vintage cards that you can't even play in Commander? This should have been a limited print run sure, but $4/pack and let people pretend draft and then they could realize how bad Beta was as a set to play.

It seem like this is another attempt of how much they can milk the commander player base to see how far they can push it.
What really gets me is the Sol Rings.
Are there really not enough to go around by now?
There were millions in Revised and they have been printing them in every commander product ever since they introduced it.

At this point, with barely any official support for Legacy and Vintage, why aren't those proxy tournaments by now?
It's not like people really care and are just happy to play the formats in RL.
Commander is a kitchen table format anyway so people can prox whatever they want.
It would make more sense to either ban reserved list cards or make like a commander+ with RL while normal is without.

The only real reason for this to exist is to have Illusionary Masks with a proper rules text.

I don't know if this deserves it's own thread but even more shit for sale soon (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/kicking-magics-30th-anniversary-celebration-2022-10-04).
We are already in perpetual spoiler season, is there a need to have another remastered set so soon?
Why did they do away with the masters sets if they are now just remastering things?

At this point, I can't see their business model being sustainable for much longer.
They are so aggressive with the amount of product they are throwing out, it's just tiring.

10-04-2022, 02:31 PM

It's really nice of them to not put that in their article so that people can be even more hyped until their jaws drop at the price tag.

It is in the article though:

Featuring the original art that inspired a generation of Magic fans, 30th Anniversary Edition is built with modern sensibilities and nostalgic roots. 30th Anniversary Edition will be on sale for the holidays, available November 28 for $999 on 30thEdition.wizards.com. And even with Magic growing tremendously throughout the past 30 years, we have gone back to our roots with a limited-edition print run.

Granted, it isn't as if it called out clearly at the top though.

Zoid

10-04-2022, 03:55 PM

It is in the article though:

Granted, it isn't as if it called out clearly at the top though.

It's so small I completely missed it.
Normally they go through all their premium and super premium deluxe options with visible price tags.

Considering the current prices for IE and CE, these seem appropriate as to not upset anyone who has stock in them.

Magic is just for investors to scam players at this point.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-04-2022, 03:58 PM

I was under the impression that during A25 they changed the art on a lot of cards because of the pricing structures of the art they used for ABU. Is that no longer the case? Because while some got new art, that's classic art on the Trop, the Sol Ring.

the Thin White Duke

10-04-2022, 04:59 PM

I'm sure that a deal of the profits from this product will go to a fund to cover the legal costs to fight the inevitable lawsuits that will come because Wizards is "breaking" the RL. (I'm not picking a side whether or not this is actually violating the RL. I'm not beating that horse today) At this point I would support lawsuits because this move is just dumb and shameless.
Anyone watch Rudy from Alpha Investments? He just did a video saying that the upcoming serialized cards are the lowest Wizards can go to make $ at this point. Guess again...

TsumiBand

10-04-2022, 05:23 PM

Who the fuck is this for? Collectors don't want to see this even printed, players aren't interested in expensive proxies that can't be used in sanctioned play; I don't know who wants this.

For damage-limit prices I'll just buy a real Trop

I don't know if "damage-limit prices" is your original quote or not but it's an excellent phrase and I'm gonna try and wedge it into conversations

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-04-2022, 05:45 PM

I don't know if "damage-limit prices" is your original quote or not but it's an excellent phrase and I'm gonna try and wedge it into conversations

Just make sure they're charging your MP and not your HP

Barook

10-04-2022, 07:35 PM

I'm sure that a deal of the profits from this product will go to a fund to cover the legal costs to fight the inevitable lawsuits that will come because Wizards is "breaking" the RL.
This kind of reprint is literally covered by their current RL policies. Anybody trying to sue would have no case.

All policies apply only to tournament-legal Magic cards in printed form. Wizards of the Coast has and may continue to print special versions of cards not meant for regular gameplay, such as oversized cards.

But considering their stance has changed since a few years ago (in which they said they wouldn't even do special prints), it makes you wonder what falls next? Maybe their stupid "spirit of the Reserve List"?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-04-2022, 08:00 PM

This kind of reprint is literally covered by their current RL policies. Anybody trying to sue would have no case.

Even if they nuke the reserved list for real.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-05-2022, 10:18 AM

So yeah anyone who whines about proxies from this point on can go eat a dick

TsumiBand

10-05-2022, 11:41 PM

So yeah anyone who whines about proxies from this point on can go eat a dick

I'll just go back to deck matrices.

Rob Hack

10-09-2022, 05:40 PM

Magic: the Whaling. You will own proxies and you will be happy. My hair turned purple from all this inclusiveness.

I got only one explanation for this product to exist in a context of three years of continuous lockdowns and fuckups followed by a very real possibility of an incoming war: they realized that in twelve months they won't be selling anything as everybody will be good only for a pauper's cage, so they started an unhinged effort to milk the dying cow dry during the most unstable period since Cuban Missile Crisis.

Nobody's buying this Abibas crap, no matter what will Malone post about that. What's the name of that proxy service again?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-09-2022, 07:23 PM

TsumiBand

10-09-2022, 08:44 PM

I mean this with all honestly and sincerity: log off.
You're like three ticks past terminal levels of "online"

All of their fucking posts are like this. It's practically a case study.

Jander78

10-10-2022, 12:15 PM

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troopatroop

10-22-2022, 03:14 AM

Wrath of Pie

10-22-2022, 02:28 PM

TsumiBand

10-23-2022, 02:58 PM

I like the look of the new frame trop over the retro one. Our Revised duals might not go up as much as they would've otherwise. I think the kids of today are going to eventually decide that they are tournament legal.

I mean, is there a certain kind of player that would piss and moan about these cards being on the table outside of a sanctioned event? Because that's an asshole.

Like I may not like this product and in fact feel it is incredibly indicative of where Hasbro's/WotC's real focus is with regard to who they are actually aiming to please. But also, if I'm at the LGS for a pickup game of EDH and someone throws down a 30th Ed Scrubland, I'm not gonna holler for a judge or anything. They look way better than my Onslaught Sea's Claim where I wrote "ANCESTRAL" at the top and everyone at the table eyerolls and goes "ok sure Tsumi that's an Ancestral"

Purple Blood

10-24-2022, 03:29 PM

TsumiBand

10-24-2022, 03:56 PM

Let's take it a step further and say no player in any level of play should be upset by the use of these cards considering their long (maybe not so long) term alternative is just not playing paper at all.

I would also be cool with that. Taigas are Taigas as far as I'm concerned. I don't have as much skin in the game as a shop owner or tournament runner though. If someone balks because they run an LGS and need to maintain their good standing with Hasbro/WotC/the DCI/MI6/who-tf-ever to stay afloat, I can't really blame them for disallowing these cards in sanctioned play.

Zoid

10-24-2022, 06:20 PM

I would also be cool with that. Taigas are Taigas as far as I'm concerned. I don't have as much skin in the game as a shop owner or tournament runner though. If someone balks because they run an LGS and need to maintain their good standing with Hasbro/WotC/the DCI/MI6/who-tf-ever to stay afloat, I can't really blame them for disallowing these cards in sanctioned play.

The thing is the stores don't even get anything for running vintage or legacy events.
Unless you care about Planeswalker points or whatever crap they have now, you could just run it as casual event.
Nobody cares, especially not WotC.
Probably the only ones who care are CFB/SCG who are actually making money off these cards.

phonics

10-25-2022, 06:06 PM

Let's take it a step further and say no player in any level of play should be upset by the use of these cards considering their long (maybe not so long) term alternative is just not playing paper at all.

Why not just skip that step entirely and just let people play proxies that don't cost 1000$ roulette spins to get? The idea of whether or not people should care if these are used to play with seems irrelevant because anyone who has the money to pony up for a product like this isn't the type of person who has problems buying cards to play with in the first place outside of maybe like 10 cards that are already proxied most of the time anyways. It feels like a roundabout way of leaving it up to us to decide whether or not its cool, or what degree of proxying ("official proxies" vs something from china vs writing on a card) is ok which is cowardly, while basically admitting that they are complicit in maintaining the pricing of the secondary market to push their own premium products.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-26-2022, 03:33 AM

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-26-2022, 07:33 AM

Literally what are you talking about

Prices going up reduces the size of the player pool.
The player pool shrinks on it's own through natural attrition.

Therefore as time advances there's going to be fewer and fewer Legacy players until there are not enough to play anymore.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-26-2022, 09:07 AM

Prices going up reduces the size of the player pool.
The player pool shrinks on it's own through natural attrition.

Therefore as time advances there's going to be fewer and fewer Legacy players until there are not enough to play anymore.

A better alternative is just using non-$1k proxies tho

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-26-2022, 10:01 AM

A better alternative is just using non-$1k proxies tho

..and? Maybe the next wave of wotc proxies isn't 1k, maybe Arabian Nights CE is only 500. One drop of honey gets the whole set!

Purple Blood

10-26-2022, 11:23 PM

Why not just skip that step entirely and just let people play proxies that don't cost 1000$ roulette spins to get? The idea of whether or not people should care if these are used to play with seems irrelevant because anyone who has the money to pony up for a product like this isn't the type of person who has problems buying cards to play with in the first place outside of maybe like 10 cards that are already proxied most of the time anyways. It feels like a roundabout way of leaving it up to us to decide whether or not its cool, or what degree of proxying ("official proxies" vs something from china vs writing on a card) is ok which is cowardly, while basically admitting that they are complicit in maintaining the pricing of the secondary market to push their own premium products.

I agree except I would note that the proxy should actually be a close approximation of the card. Its not a very fun experience playing against a bunch of proxies when they're something like a Plains with a different name written with Sharpie and no rules text or anything else.

Purple Blood

10-26-2022, 11:24 PM

A better alternative is just using non-$1k proxies tho

What aspect of my post had anything to do with the use of other types of proxies? Also, see my response to phonics.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

10-29-2022, 10:40 AM

What aspect of my post had anything to do with the use of other types of proxies? Also, see my response to phonics.

So Wizards printing this shit isn’t necessary to the continuation of the format

Purple Blood

10-29-2022, 10:41 AM

So Wizards printing this shit isn’t necessary to the continuation of the format

No but with the continuation of the reserve list proxies are necessary to continued paper play.

TsumiBand

10-29-2022, 12:38 PM

No but with the continuation of the reserve list proxies are necessary to continued paper play.

See, this point right here makes me wonder why more collectors didn't express concern about the weakening of the Pro Tour. The rotating format concept is historically built on the idea that collectors insist on collectibility of game pieces so they can't have eternal endless print runs; so you entice players with a Pro Tour that uses rotating formats and then tell them "...you DO want to play the cards that PROFESSIONALS are playing, right? That's where the money is! That's where the prizes are!" You start chipping away at the pillars of Reserve List and Pro Tour and the foundation starts sagging. When players don't have anything to aspire to in Standard, they start wondering why they bother keeping up with it at all, then they look at older formats with lands that cost a month's rent and realize that playing the game the way they're being encouraged to makes no fucking sense unless they're burdened with a sizeable disposable income.

Now maybe gamers are so accustomed to games rotating pieces out of competitive play that this is just accepted as The Way Things Work? So maybe it's just cold fusion at this point and the gacha life has infiltrated all gaming outside of Chess and Poker, and we're never going back. I dunno. But otherwise, the game is just a complex set of rules that can be applied to any physical or electronic assets you see fit. If Magic deflates its own hype far enough there is nothing stopping it from becoming the next Netrunner.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-15-2022, 01:45 AM

lol. lmao, even

https://articles.starcitygames.com/magic-the-gathering/hasbro-shares-plunge-after-bank-of-america-report-downgrades-companys-rating/

Shares of Hasbro dropped almost nine percent today following a report from Bank of America that claims the company is hurting the long-term value of Magic: The Gathering by overproducing cards.

jmlima

11-15-2022, 04:11 AM

lol. lmao, even

https://articles.starcitygames.com/magic-the-gathering/hasbro-shares-plunge-after-bank-of-america-report-downgrades-companys-rating/

Shocking I tell you , shocking. Who saw that coming.

Purple Blood

11-15-2022, 10:53 AM

Contrarian take: the interests of stock investors might not actually be aligned with the interests of players and may even be diametrically opposed.

TsumiBand

11-15-2022, 12:49 PM

Contrarian take: the interests of stock investors might not actually be aligned with the interests of players and may even be diametrically opposed.

Right?

Nothing about the last few years of product decisions makes sense. There's too much to keep up with, it's always spoiler season, and cards are being printed that literally nobody asked for. They've managed to reproduce the "always online" feeling in real life, that dull yet blistering deluge of raw, unsophisticated c o n t e n t f o r e v e r.

If they'd just done *one* of the things it might have been okay. Ramp up Standard but don't do Secret Lairs. Do your weird crossovers but don't dick with the Standard release cycle. Print your 30th Edition but don't do *any of the other stupid fucking shit you did over the last 5 years*. Doing all of this is just overexposure.

And for fuck's sake have a reasonable price point. How do you flood a market with cards *and* sell $250 booster packs that aren't even legal? I know people joke that Magic is cardboard crack and all, but it turns out they've been cutting it with flour and we're not actually addicted to any of this shit.

My concern is they're gonna take the wrong lessons from all of this. 30th Ed will be a giant scapegoat here, they broke their One Rule in the midst of a series of poor decisions and it'll strengthen their resolve in the RP, as if that was the only thing leading to investor and player divestment. Secret Lairs and other crossovers will just go wider, I look forward to Secret Lair: TOWIE. Standard release cycles will continue to suck and 0head printings resulting in bans will not be reigned in because chase rares == $$ and shifting the goalpost by strategic application of the Banhammer is just good business.

I don't like being a doomer because it means I have to admit that I give a shit about a game I scarcely have time or money for anymore but that's sorta the point, right - this game rarely respected my money and it requires too much maintenance to respect my time, so why should I care apart from nostalgia of the Before Times? Remember when the game's biggest problem was Tarmogoyf?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-15-2022, 12:50 PM

Contrarian take: the interests of stock investors might not actually be aligned with the interests of players and may even be diametrically opposed.

Usually this is the case because of short term incentives though. Stock market malfeasance is far more likely to take the form of short term enrichment of stockholders, eg stock buybacks, than concern for the long term health of a brand, which is the thing more likely to be sacrificed.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-15-2022, 12:56 PM

Relevant twitter thread (https://twitter.com/garius/status/1588115310124539904)

So why does this happen? As I explain to these people and places, it's because they breached the Trust Thermocline.

I ask them if they'd been increasing prices. Changed service offerings. Modified the product.

The answer is normally: "yes, but not much. And everyone still paid"

Then I ask if they did that the year before. Did they increase prices last year? Change the offering? Modify the product?

Again: "yes, but not much."

The answer is normally: "yes, but not much. And everyone still paid."

"And the year before?"

"Yes but not much. And everyone still paid."

Well, you get the idea.

And here is where the Trust Thermocline kicks in. Because too many people see service use as always following an arc. They think that as long as usage is ticking up, they can do what they like to cost and product.

And (critically) that they can just react when the curve flattens

But with a lot of CONTENT products (inc social media) that's not actually how it works. Because it doesn't account for sunk-cost lock-in.

Users and readers will stick to what they know, and use, well beyond the point where they START to lose trust in it. And you won't see that.

But they'll only MOVE when they hit the Trust Thermocline. The point where their lack of trust in the product to meet their needs, and the emotional investment they'd made in it, have finally been outweighed by the physical and emotional effort required to abandon it.

At this point, I normally get asked something like:

"So if we undo the last few changes and drop the price, we get them back?"

And then I have to break the news that nope: that's not how it works.

Because you're past the Thermocline now. You can't make them trust you again.

Zoid

11-15-2022, 09:09 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

11-15-2022, 11:00 PM

It's almost like people only have so much money to spend on their hobby, especially in these times of economic uncertainty.

Instead of giving people what they want, they just produce loads of shit thinking enough people will still like it.

The current sales are also partially due to pushing cards so hard that they are viable in every format which something they can't continue forever.

Note by the way that this is exactly the point I've long said about why they wouldn't actually make bank breaking the reserve list for real. The total amount of money people are willing/able to spend on Magic cards is finite.

BirdsOfParadise

11-16-2022, 01:45 AM

I used to keep up with various formats. With the rate of new releases, I find that any format that uses new cards doesn’t do it for me because I can’t keep track of the cards. I consider myself pretty darn obsessed with Magic, and I used to be up to speed on new releases, but I can’t hope to stay up to speed anymore.

I still like the game a lot. I’m working on a custom card Cube, or rather a Polycube, made up of mini sets. Each mini set is 120–180 cards, and I’m hoping to get to 6+ of them, although it’s a long process. The idea is that by shuffling different mini-sets together, you get different Cubes each time you play. Once I have six mini sets the combinatorics will get pretty big (many unique combinations of two or three mini sets). The first mini set, already complete, is about spaceship combat and fuel management. The second, in progress, is about the mythical land of Hyperborea — griffins, cyclopes, Auras, Treasures, it’s not fully figured out yet.

This is my way of engaging with the game without needing to keep up with new releases.

I’m in Pasadena atm if anyone wants to play spaceship magic.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-16-2022, 07:34 AM

I’m in Pasadena atm if anyone wants to play spaceship magic.

The BSG TCG we deserve

BirdsOfParadise

11-16-2022, 10:00 AM

It’s more of a retro futuristic theme, with a large chunk of the art coming from 80s sci-fi book covers by Chris Foss.

jmlima

11-16-2022, 11:43 AM

Contrarian take: the interests of stock investors might not actually be aligned with the interests of players and may even be diametrically opposed.

At some point you can see that one of the gists of the report is that they (investors) would like high card prices, which goes straight to the difference between investor and player. As a player, I think the article is right, but perhaps with the wrong motivation...

In any case, it's pretty undeniable they have screwed the game. To start with, right of the gates you now have two different games, that have been growing further and further apart, the digital vs cardboard. That's already one hell of a divide. Then, inside online, you now have two competing offers, by two different companies. Add to the this the absolute pulverizing of the game's formats abd you have something that , whilst still at core the magic of old, is now devloping inside a totally different set of environments.

I'm not actually sure that the wants of all components of those different groups can be accommodated by a single game. Heck, I'm digital only for a long time now, what I want from my digital game (arena) is remarkably different from what invested MTGO players want. For ex, I don't give a rats arse about card $ values. They do. I would like everything reprinted, at common if possible. They would go up in arms with that.

Purple Blood

11-16-2022, 05:27 PM

I’m working on a custom card Cube, or rather a Polycube, made up of mini sets. Each mini set is 120–180 cards, and I’m hoping to get to 6+ of them, although it’s a long process. The idea is that by shuffling different mini-sets together, you get different Cubes each time you play. Once I have six mini sets the combinatorics will get pretty big (many unique combinations of two or three mini sets). The first mini set, already complete, is about spaceship combat and fuel management. The second, in progress, is about the mythical land of Hyperborea — griffins, cyclopes, Auras, Treasures, it’s not fully figured out yet.

This is my way of engaging with the game without needing to keep up with new releases.

I’m in Pasadena atm if anyone wants to play spaceship magic.

That's freaking awesome. Are there any overlaps/cross-synergies between the mini cubes? Do you play at a store in Pasadena? I'm in the SFV.

Rob Hack

11-17-2022, 06:46 AM

Yeah, you've been warned once already, so we aren't going to do this again.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-17-2022, 07:09 AM

Sir, this is an Arby's.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-17-2022, 07:43 AM

I saw the wall of text and my eyes glazed over. But now that I have actually read it: Holy shit get fucked, asshole.

TsumiBand

11-17-2022, 08:09 AM

Aww, you read my posts <3

Wrath of Pie

11-17-2022, 03:56 PM

I think that this satire (https://pauperjumpstart.com/2022/11/16/richard-garfield-double-wide-casket-rolling-over/) is thematic to the thread topic.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-17-2022, 04:00 PM

I think that this satire (https://pauperjumpstart.com/2022/11/16/richard-garfield-double-wide-casket-rolling-over/) is thematic to the thread topic.

Hook him up to a pair of magnets and that's clean energy right there.

Zoid

11-17-2022, 06:25 PM

“After I began seeing that the so-called ‘spoiler season’ was nothing more than an endless stream of cardboard, I contemplated dying just so I could get a head start on all the rolling over I’m going to be needing to do.
Then I saw the $1000 fake cards people were buying.
I even tried reminding everyone how bad it was to treat Magic as a collectable before a game.
The fact that Wizards of the Coast ignored me means I’m already way behind on how many times I need to roll over and I’m not even dead yet.
Speaking of death, its no mere coincidence that a mere three days before the double-downgrade WotC was visited by the ghosts of Beanie Babies past, present, and future.”

LOL

I always wonder what would have been if Artifact wasn't dropped like shat underwear.

BirdsOfParadise

11-20-2022, 03:06 AM

That's freaking awesome. Are there any overlaps/cross-synergies between the mini cubes? Do you play at a store in Pasadena? I'm in the SFV.
PM’d!
As for cross-synergies... well, the second set is still pretty incomplete, and it takes two sets to have a cross-synergy... but I’m certainly aiming for a bit of that!

Hearthstone Battlegrounds was actually an inspiration. For those not familiar with it, there are nine tribes (Pirates, Beasts, etc.), but only five tribes appear in any one game. That means there’s a huge number of combinations of game configurations. Different strategies are possible depending on what’s in.