4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

[Wrath of Pie]

We're at 6 entries, missing FTW and GoblinSmashmaster from the recent regulars. They're both usually active in these hours, so I'm going to go climbing and grocery shopping, then post the lists around 6pm EST (~5 hours from now), or a bit earlier if I get both.
That combination sounds like a future extreme sport.

[silkster]

I'm glad I waited. Here we go!

Season 14: Round 14 Lists

1. silkster: Agonizing Remorse, Prohibit, Skrelv's Hive, Pendelhaven
2. Asthereal: Durkwood Baloth, Prohibit, Solitude, Skyknight Vanguard
3. dte: Sheltered Valley, Time Vault, Steel Overseer, Voltaic Servant
4. Wrath of Pie: Blast Zone, Selesnya Sanctuary, Generous Gift, Elixir of Immortality
5. Dooey: Squee, the Immortal, Dwarven Hold, Lapse of Certainty, Sudden Edict
6. jfb1337: Windfall, Acorn Harvest, Savannah, Swords to Plowshares
7. GoblinSmashmaster:Volcanic Island, Basalt Monolith, Power Artifact, Red Sun's Zenith
8. FTW: Mana Crypt, Barbed Shocker, Dromar's Charm, Arcbound Ravager


Salted entry: Agonizing Remorse, Prohibit, Skrelv's Hive, Pendelhaven, go my mites!

[silkster]

I'd like to be the first to acknowledge and appreciate that Red Sun's Zenith has art that is full of goblins. Though I think those goblins might be getting smashed rather than doing the smashing.

[silkster]

1. silkster: Agonizing Remorse, Prohibit, Skrelv's Hive, Pendelhaven
Here's me, licking my wounds and playing cheap interaction again. Skrelv's Hive feels like a significant upgrade from Dreadhorde Invasion, and not requiring black mana is nice too.

2. Asthereal: Durkwood Baloth, Prohibit, Solitude, Skyknight Vanguard
Prohibits trade, so it's an easy win on the play. On the draw, you make blockers as fast as I make attackers, but Pendelhaven does work. But does it do work faster enough to get out ahead before the Baloth comes down. I really want it to because I want Pendelhaven to be relevant, but I'm not sure it does. (Further analysis shows that you can kill on the turn that Baloth resolves while stopping me from enabling corrupted.)
WL

3. dte: Sheltered Valley, Time Vault, Steel Overseer, Voltaic Servant
I was just thinking that Steel Overseer felt overdue. I almost played it with Workshops and Lodestone Golem last round, though the Lupine was certainly the better choice.
Counter the Servant and then race the Overseer?
On the draw, I attack on turn 6 with 4 mites into an untapped 5/5. You kill one. So it's 6/6 vs 4 mites (one summoning sick), 3p - 15 life.
On each subsequent turn, I attack with 4 mites and gain 5 life, killing from poison in 3 more turns. I don't think Time Vault helps, since I'm never just 2 attacks from dying.
WW

4. Wrath of Pie: Blast Zone, Selesnya Sanctuary, Generous Gift, Elixir of Immortality
My interaction lines up very well with your spells. Blast Zone is on time to catch the Hive when you're on the play, but then you can't cast other spells. Gifting your land on turn one loses to the infestation of mites.
WD

5. Dooey: Squee, the Immortal, Dwarven Hold, Lapse of Certainty, Sudden Edict
Discard or kicked counter clears the way for Hive, which lines up very well against your blocker and removal.
WW

6. jfb1337: Windfall, Acorn Harvest, Savannah, Swords to Plowshares
Kicked Prohibit plus mites is winning. If you could make 4 1/1s, the race might be on, but you have to spend too much mana for that and then I can counter the second one safely.
WW

7. GoblinSmashmaster:Volcanic Island, Basalt Monolith, Power Artifact, Red Sun's Zenith
Counter on Power Artifact is good. Interestingly, a second land would make a draw, but it really doesn't fit into the deck.
WW

8. FTW: Mana Crypt, Barbed Shocker, Dromar's Charm, Arcbound Ravager
Come back, my Nullhide Ferox! I really thought several people would play Barbed Shocker or Windfall or the like last round.
I keep looking in vain for another land that makes 2 mana on turn 1. I keep forgetting about Mana Crypt because I'm usually playing slightly slower win conditions. At first I wondered why the Ravager wasn't a Steel Overseer to better race the Mana Crypt damage, but I eventually figured it out.
Discard is WL.

This went better than expected, and I'm not quire sure why. When Dread Fugue + Prohibit didn't win enough to be banned, I thought the time but discard + conditional counter might be done. I hoped the exile part might be very relevant, but I it was the improved threat that really mattered.

[Dooey]

5. Dooey: Squee, the Immortal, Dwarven Hold, Lapse of Certainty, Sudden Edict

1. silkster: Agonizing Remorse, Prohibit, Skrelv's Hive, Pendelhaven

Remorse into hive, LL

2. Asthereal: Durkwood Baloth, Prohibit, Solitude, Skyknight Vanguard

Edict your first threat, lapse your second, you don't have the mana to kick prohibit. WW

3. dte: Sheltered Valley, Time Vault, Steel Overseer, Voltaic Servant

You slow roll your threats to conserve mana and cast whatever I lapse twice. Whichever one sticks kills me. LL

4. Wrath of Pie: Blast Zone, Selesnya Sanctuary, Generous Gift, Elixir of Immortality

If I lapse your elixir you just recast it, LL

6. jfb1337: Windfall, Acorn Harvest, Savannah, Swords to Plowshares

OTP I get my land into play, lapse whatever you cast, and squee ignores swords. OTD if you lead land windfall I have to lapse it, at which point you have to wait until next turn to harvest, and can only harvest once. I edict one squirrel, and squee outraces the other (even after I have to wait 8 turns for the mana). WW

7. GoblinSmashmaster:Volcanic Island, Basalt Monolith, Power Artifact, Red Sun's Zenith

Lapse on power artifact and can't recast. Zenith can kill squee a few times but he keeps coming back. WW

8. FTW: Mana Crypt, Barbed Shocker, Dromar's Charm, Arcbound Ravager

You lead crypt->shocker. I edict it. You then wait until you untap so you can cast ravager off crypt mana and hold up charm. You take 3 damage, but can get in enough damage before I can get squee out that I can't win the race. Squee still blocks forever though. DD


6W2D.


Squee coming back from exile was more relevant than I expected. Lapse would have won me more games than prohibit though.

[dte]

1. silkster: Agonizing Remorse, Prohibit, Skrelv's Hive, Pendelhaven

I don't think Time Vault helps, since I'm never just 2 attacks from dying.
Depends what you mean by "helps", using vault I can get you down to four. So it does help a bit, but is unsufficient.
Otherwise I thought in bannathons we were not adding the new sets anymore?
0-6

2. Asthereal: Durkwood Baloth, Prohibit, Solitude, Skyknight Vanguard
0-6.

3. dte: Sheltered Valley, Time Vault, Steel Overseer, Voltaic Servant
Me, playing a deck that tries to explot a loophole in the loop rules and get draws with time vault thanks to valley.

4. Wrath of Pie: Blast Zone, Selesnya Sanctuary, Generous Gift, Elixir of Immortality
0-6

5. Dooey: Squee, the Immortal, Dwarven Hold, Lapse of Certainty, Sudden Edict
6-0
6

6. jfb1337: Windfall, Acorn Harvest, Savannah, Swords to Plowshares
3-3
9

7. GoblinSmashmaster:Volcanic Island, Basalt Monolith, Power Artifact, Red Sun's Zenith
3-3
12

8. FTW: Mana Crypt, Barbed Shocker, Dromar's Charm, Arcbound Ravager
3-3
15

Damn, did not manage to get a single draw by stealing 99% of the turns with a servant staring at an army on the opposite side of the valley :(
I should have played prohibit rather than overseer, would hae gotten 29 with a few draws. I wanted to stick to a monobrawn theme from last round.

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores for round 14:
2. Asthereal: Durkwood Baloth, Prohibit, Solitude, Skyknight Vanguard <-me
I wanted to play something fun-ish. Let's see how Vanguard does.

1. silkster: Agonizing Remorse, Prohibit, Skrelv's Hive, Pendelhaven WL
OTP I drop my hand, Prohibits cancel eachother out, Vanguard is actually better than Hive. OTD you get to use Remorse and I lose.
3. dte: Sheltered Valley, Time Vault, Steel Overseer, Voltaic Servant WW
Prohibit Servant or Time Vault, Soliture Overseer, Baloth stomps.
4. Wrath of Pie: Blast Zone, Selesnya Sanctuary, Generous Gift, Elixir of Immortality WW
I Prohibit Elixir, after which you can kill one of my threats, but I gain an Elephant, and Blast Zone can only kill one of my threats, so the other kills you.
5. Dooey: Squee, the Immortal, Dwarven Hold, Lapse of Certainty, Sudden Edict LL
Split second is neat. I reckoned I'd be able to use Prohibit to save one of my guys, but I can't.
6. jfb1337: Windfall, Acorn Harvest, Savannah, Swords to Plowshares WL
OTP I drop Vanguard and sus Baloth. You Windfall, I counter for 4 mana. Then you StP Vanguard and I Solitude one of your tokens, after which Baloth wins.
OTD you play Savannah and cast Windfall for mana from Sav and UB from the opening mana. I have to counter for 4 mana, keeping G. From here you just make 2 tokens and StP my Baloth.
7. GoblinSmashmaster:Volcanic Island, Basalt Monolith, Power Artifact, Red Sun's Zenith WW
Prohibit, kicked, stops Zenith. Your deck doesn't do wnything else, so Baloth wins it.
8. FTW: Mana Crypt, Barbed Shocker, Dromar's Charm, Arcbound Ravager WW
I Solitude your Shocker, I Prohibit-kicked your Charm and Baloth defeats a 2/2 Ravager.

Total: 30 points?

[silkster]

Otherwise I thought in bannathons we were not adding the new sets anymore?


I asked about Brothers' War on November 16. The responses were in favour of including it, so I went with that. I also appreciate the simplicity of not including it as an exception to "Vintage legal - Unfinity".

I noted in the opening of round 13 that Phyrexia: All Will Be One was not yet legal, and then again in round 14 that it is now legal.

[BirdsOfParadise]

Happy birthday, Wrath of Pie!

GoblinSmashmaster, nice job fitting Goblins into the artwork that last round. I see what you did there ;)

[Wrath of Pie]

4. Wrath of Pie: Blast Zone, Selesnya Sanctuary, Generous Gift, Elixir of Immortality

1. silkster: Agonizing Remorse, Prohibit, Skrelv's Hive, Pendelhaven DL
2. Asthereal: Durkwood Baloth, Prohibit, Solitude, Skyknight Vanguard LL
3. dte: Sheltered Valley, Time Vault, Steel Overseer, Voltaic Servant WW - Blast Zone is really good here.
5. Dooey: Squee, the Immortal, Dwarven Hold, Lapse of Certainty, Sudden Edict WW
6. jfb1337: Windfall, Acorn Harvest, Savannah, Swords to Plowshares WL
7. GoblinSmashmaster:Volcanic Island, Basalt Monolith, Power Artifact, Red Sun's Zenith WW
8. FTW: Mana Crypt, Barbed Shocker, Dromar's Charm, Arcbound Ravager DL

7w2d = 23 points

Guess the white Elephant party is over.

[FTW]

4. Wrath of Pie: Blast Zone, Selesnya Sanctuary, Generous Gift, Elixir of Immortality

8. FTW: Mana Crypt, Barbed Shocker, Dromar's Charm, Arcbound Ravager DL

Edit: Agree

[FTW]

8. FTW: Mana Crypt, Barbed Shocker, Dromar's Charm, Arcbound Ravager


1. silkster: OTP Shocker takes your hand, counter Prohibit.
OTD Remorse takes Charm (if you take anything else, you can't resolve Hive through Charm). You then play Hive. I play Shocker with starting mana (no mana to kick Prohibit) and attack, discarding Prohibit. Then I play Crypt + Ravager and sacrifice Crypt. Then...

1 token [S=17] / attack with 2 2/2s [S=13]
2 token [S=12, F=1 poison] / attack with Shocker [S=10]
3 token, attack with 2, Ravager blocks 1, Pendelhaven pump to 2/3, Ravager puts counters on Shocker [S=9, F=2 poison] / attack with 4/4 [S=5]
4 token, attack with 3 [S=4, F=5 poison] lifelink now enabled / attack with 4/4 [S=0]
Win for me?

I think I just barely win the race by stalling you getting me to 3 poison to delay lifelink. Does that look right?

If so, then your optimal line is to draw by letting me counter Hive. Remorse takes Shocker, Charm counters Hive, then Prohibit counters Ravager to draw.
WD 4-1?

2. Asthereal: OTP Shocker, you Solitude [F=22], I Charm but you kick Prohibit, then you Suspend Baloth. I play T2 Ravager & sacrifice Crypt [F=19]. Baloth resolves on your turn 6. After my turn 6, Ravager has dealt 8 damage [A=12]. Then Baloth resolves and drops me to F=14. Despite how slow Baloth is to resolve, it still races my 2/2. LL 0-6

3. dte: OTP shocker takes your hand.
OTD you play your hand. Charm counters Servant so I can actually get a turn. Then I play Shocker and T2 Ravager, but Overseer + life gain stabilizes fast enough.
WL 3-3

4. Wrath of Pie: OTP Shocker takes your hand, Charm counters Gift.
OTD see above. You must play Blast Zone & Elixir (otherwise same as OTP). Charm must counter Elixir. Then I play Crypt + Shocker but do not attack (you can make 3/3 blocker). You may or may not play Sanctuary, either way you have 1 land in hand. Then I play Ravager and attack with Shocker. You can't win by blocking (I make Shocker 4/4 trample) and Shocker would discard land + Gift, so you must Gift before that. If you Gift any of my permanents instead, I have 2 creatures of different cmc and Blast Zone cannot stop both (especially the 3/3 token). Either way, I win.
WW 6-0

5. Dooey: The worst I can do is draw by letting you Edict Shocker, countering Lapse, and make 2/2 Ravager stare at 2/1 Squee. You can't afford to attack because Ravager deals damage before Squee comes down.
DD 2-2?

6. jfb1337: OTP Shocker takes your hand, Charm counters StP. You can flashback to make 2 tokens, but 2 2/2s beat that.

OTD is complicated due to your mana constraints.
1) If you lead with Windfall (WGR left), I counter with Charm. I play Shocker. If you StP (GR left), you don't have enough mana to cast Acorn Harvest from hand so you can't make threats and lose to Ravager. If you don't StP, Shocker discards StP & Acorn, you can make 2 tokens, but Ravager + Shocker beats that. Win
2) If you do nothing and hold mana open, same as OTP. Win.
3) If you lead with Acorn Harvest [WG left] and then flashback, I let them resolve. 4 tokens. I play Crypt & Shocker & pass, then turn 2 Ravager, holding up Charm to counter StP. Then I leave 2/2 shocker to block your tokens while 2/2 Ravager attacks. 4 tokens can't win through a 2/2 blocker. If you gangblock Ravager, you lose 2 tokens and then modular moves counters over, so 4/4 shocker wins. Win.
4) If you lead with a single Acorn Harvest [WU left] (threatening Windfall), I let it resolve. 2 tokens. I play Crypt + Shocker and don't attack. If you Windfall [0 mana left], I counter with Charm. Then I play Ravager, make Shocker 4/4 and trample past your tokens to discard StP and win. You won't have the mana to respond with StP or flashback more tokens. Win.
If you don't Windfall and instead StP my Shocker (either with starting W or with Savannah on turn 2), you don't have the mana to threaten T2 Windfall, so I can safely counter StP with Charm, then play T2 Ravager (now Windfall is irrelevant). You can flashback 2 more tokens. As above, I can beat 4 tokens by attacking with 2/2 Ravager and leaving 2/2 shocker to block. You can't win through a 2/2 blocker. If you trade with Ravager, it makes Shocker 4/4 to win. Win.

I think I can win under all lines?
WW 6-0

7. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP Shocker discards your hand. OTD Charm stops your combo. You could try to RSZ for 0 to hide it in your library, then slowly RSZ my creatures, but I can just counter RSZ to stop that. WW 6-0

Edit: Ravager can't put modular counters on Shocker, which loses me 5 pts OTD.

[Wrath of Pie]

You may want to read the reminder text for modular more closely.

[FTW]

You may want to read the reminder text for modular more closely.

Oh wow.

Well Arcbound Ravager makes little sense in the deck then. The point was to both eat Mana Crypt and grow Shocker. Otherwise it should have been a better creature or Donate.

Vs Silkster: I can no longer race Hive. WL 3-3
Vs Asthereal: Still LL 0-6
Vs dte: Still WL 3-3
Vs Wrath: I can't trample through a 3/3 blocker anymore. WD 4-1
Vs Dooey: Still DD 2-2
Vs jfb: OTD I can only draw vs 4 1/1s. So you cast Acornx2 + StP, each can trade with a 2/2, I can only counter 1. WD 4-1
Vs Goblins: still WW 6-0

22 points (6 wins, 4 draws, 4 loss)

It only affected the disagreements with Wrath & silk and the match vs jfb.

[silkster]

The cards joining the banlist are:
Agonizing Remorse
Arcbound Ravager
Barbed Shocker
Blast Zone
Dromar's Charm
Durkwood Baloth
Elixir of Immortality
Generous Gift
Mana Crypt
Pendelhaven
Prohibit
Selesnya Sanctuary
Skrelv's Hive
Skyknight Vanguard
Solitude.

I'll open the round tomorrow (a little late, yes), and it will end on Thursday, which should be fine as I would generally expect that we would take a week off as we regroup for dte's season 15. (Have you decided on a format?)

[Asthereal]

LOL I gambled on Vanguard and immediately got it banned. :tongue:

Anyway, I got round 13 to add up in the Table tab of the spreadsheet, but the code for the round 14 row doesn't work, despite being the exact same as the rest. Weird stuff.
We may have to do that one manually.

[dte]

The as we regroup for dte's season 15. (Have you decided on a format?)

I have, but I will wait until yours is over before talking about it, otherwise it is only confusing.
Especially as it will come with plenty of details.
And I would like to say to that if anyone wants to organize one as well, don't hesitate!

[silkster]

LOL I gambled on Vanguard and immediately got it banned. :tongue:

Anyway, I got round 13 to add up in the Table tab of the spreadsheet, but the code for the round 14 row doesn't work, despite being the exact same as the rest. Weird stuff.
We may have to do that one manually.

Skyknight Vanguard was an awesome find. I'm not surprised it got banned right away.

Thanks for updating the scores. I tried changing the settings to recalculate values every minute, but still no luck. I'm not sure what's up.


I have, but I will wait until yours is over before talking about it, otherwise it is only confusing.
Especially as it will come with plenty of details.
And I would like to say to that if anyone wants to organize one as well, don't hesitate!

I like this, and waiting to give all the details makes sense. It builds suspense and it keeps the current focus on the final round at hand. Speaking of which...

[silkster]

THE FINAL ROUND (15) OF SEASON 14: WUBRG is now open.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 15, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is d3ad4ab097f10f5ee83281e3a1f24ebea5b5a87e54b760f1497238345dc23103

[B]DEADLINE: Thursday, February 23th at 1:00pm Eastern Standard Time (GMT-5).
PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows:

silkster: Beloved Princess, Locked in the Cemetery, Wayward Guide-Beast, Hero of Leina Tower.

So with name, colon, and card tags around each card, and not above each other, and with your Username and 4CB S14R15 in the topic.

Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33800-4-Card-Blind-The-Silkster-Seasons&p=1102334&viewfull=1#post1102334) and in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit?usp=sharing). Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy listbuilding! :smile:



name and 4CB S14R15
YOURNAME: A, B, C, D.

[silkster]

Missing jfb1337 and FTW, but I think it makes sense to post anyway, which I will do in about 30 minutes after I get a few other things sorted out.

[FTW]

Missing jfb1337 and FTW, but I think it makes sense to post anyway, which I will do in about 30 minutes after I get a few other things sorted out.

Almost forgot it was today. Sending something in a few minutes.
Edit: Sent

[silkster]

Season 14: Round 15 Lists

1. silkster: Luminarch Aspirant, Thought Erasure, Psychic Strike, Disrupting Shoal
2. Dooey: March of Otherworldly Light, Darksteel Citadel, Ensoul Artifact, Withering Boon
3. Asthereal: Grapeshot, Helm of Awakening, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top
4. dte: Trickbind, Dread Fugue, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought
5. Wrath of Pie: Despise, Ajani Vengeant, Bottomless Vault, Garruk Relentless
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Priest of Gix, Nether Void, Delay, Wasteland
7. jfb1337: Obscura Interceptor, Blazing Rootwalla, Fury, Dwarven Hold
8. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Hypnotic Sprite, Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating

Salted entry: Luminarch Aspirant, Thought Erasure, Psychic Strike, Disrupting Shoal, mana sources are overrated

[silkster]

1. Luminarch Aspirant, Thought Erasure, Psychic Strike, Disrupting Shoal
When Force of Will was played, it caught me off guard. Then Force of Negation surprised me. Then Foil surprised me. But not this time!

2. Dooey: March of Otherworldly Light, Darksteel Citadel, Ensoul Artifact, Withering Boon
I can't stop all 3 of your spells, so I stop the threat.
DD

3. Asthereal: Grapeshot, Helm of Awakening, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top
I actually thought about this for a moment and I was satisfied with WD, but I found a new line. I let you Helm, and play out the first Top. I Psychic Strike the second one. Then I can play Aspirant and you can't get enough Grapeshots. And if you don't go for the combo on turn 1, I Thought Erasure the Grapeshot to clear the way.
WW

4. dte: Trickbind, Dread Fugue, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought
That is so many Dreadnaughts. You manage to dodge Disrupting Shoal, so this becomes "Discard mirror is WL".
WL

5. Wrath of Pie: Despise, Ajani Vengeant, Bottomless Vault, Garruk Relentless
Oh, Despise isn't Distress. You aren't playing 2cmc or 3cmc either! On the play, I can win on turn 6, but you'll have enough mana for both planeswalkers on turn 5. But then you have to spend every turn either keeping the Aspirant tapped or chump blocking.
DL

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Priest of Gix, Nether Void, Delay, Wasteland
Disrupting Shoal lines up against Delay, so I can counter 2 things and win.
WW

7. jfb1337: Obscura Interceptor, Blazing Rootwalla, Fury, Dwarven Hold
Interceptor meets the Strike, then you have to evoke Fury against the Aspirant.
DD

8. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Hypnotic Sprite, Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating
Dack making me discard is scary, so I need to counter Dack, which I do using Disrupting Shoal, and you don't have turn 1 mana for Mesmeric Glare. Then Aspirant wins. If you wait (or I'm on the play), Thought Erasure gets Mesmeric Glare (possibly leaving you with the Sprite on an adventure), but Shoal will still catch Dack.
WW

From about round 3, I wanted to play Chromium the Mutable. But there kept being infinite combos with some protection, and it was costing me too much to use all of my mana and 3 cards (dragon + 2x spirit guides). And I couldn't get anything out of the last card. When I finally thought it might be time, I discovered that both spirit guides were banned. I thought about playing it with Crystal Vein, but that means Chromium doesn't get ahead of discard. I almost played a modal deck of (Dark Ritual + Chromium) + (3 mana counter + 2 mana threat), but that made Chromium weak to counters, but it didn't even force out your counter, so you would get to counter one spell from the other half of my deck too. When I discovered that Blood Baron of Vizkopa single-handedly beats Dread Fugue, Prohibit, Swords to Plowshares, and Durkwood Baloth, I couldn't resist. I had really high hopes for that round, but people did not play the 3-or-4 cheap spells decks that I was expecting. I also thought about playing Dark Ritual + Gutteral Response + Dark Ritual + Chromium to really force it through on turn 0, but it felt a bit too narrow for a deck that still lost to all combo decks.

The other win condition that I was hoping to play from round 3 was Gideon of the Trials in combination with Glorious End. The issues were: 1) you have to commit a card to making W on turn 1, which also meant that the fourth card wouldn't be very good; and 2) Glorious End is a very hard counter, but it doesn't help you resolve Gideon against a counter. I was close to submitting Glorious Gideon with Savannah and Tamiyo's Safekeeping in about round 9, but the fact that Safekeeping couldn't protect Gideon until the next turn meant that it still couldn't protect against planeswalker removal like Assassin's Trophy.

The other deck that got away was Swamp + Thoughtseize/Therapy + Reanimate/Animate Dead + Colossal Skyturtle. It's elegant, but it loses to combo and mass discard on the draw.

[FTW]

8. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Hypnotic Sprite, Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating

I think I picked the wrong land. Can't make 1 mana until turn 3.

1. silkster: You play Erasure, I counter it, you can counter back with Shoal X=3. That would remove my creature & then you also discard Dack and resolve Aspirant. If I try to play Dack without a counter up, you can Shoal X=3 Dack, then Thought Erasure my creature and play Aspirant. LL 0-6

2. Dooey: March and Boon can't target Dack. So I just play T1 Dack, make you discard any unplayed cards, steal the 5/5 if you make it, and then cast my creature once your hand is empty. WW 6-0

3. Asthereal: I can counter Helm. Otherwise I just store up mana until I can play Dack with 2U up, discard your hand, then make my creature. WW 6-0

4. dte: OTP Dack+. If you discard 2 (Fugue+Trickbind/Gardens), you can make 1 Dreadnought but then I steal it. If you Trickbind the ability, you keep your cards but can only make 1 Dreadnought. I can steal it. But you can Dread Fugue my creature to draw.
OTD you Dread Fugue. If you Cleave to threaten Dack, you have 3 mana left. If I counter, you play Dreadnought + Trickbind that turn, and I can't cast Dack till my turn 3 (too slow). So I have to let Fugue resolve. If you discard Dack, I can counter Dreadnought, so you never play it and I can't play Sprite, and we draw.
Edit: Instead you can Dread Fugue for B and discard Sprite (cmc=2). Then use you can use RW on Dreadnought + Gardens to make a 12/12 and still hold up UG for Trickbind to counter Dack's steal.
DL 1-4

5. Wrath of Pie: OTP I play Dack & Coating, make you discard 2. You could resolve 1 PW, but neither can kill Dack in 1 turn and then I steal it and win. So it's better for you to discard both walkers and Despise my creature to draw.
OTD you Despise me. If it resolves, you take Dack and then I can't counter the Walkers, so I must counter it. Then you play land & Ajani. Ajani locks me out of charging my land so I can't play anything else. DL 1-4

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Not fair! No goblins. If I play Dack, you Delay and then Nether Void + Waste my land. If I do nothing, I can threaten to counter Priest but you Delay me, then Waste my land and win. LL 0-6

7. jfb1337: I can't counter Obscura or Fury, due to CMC. If you play Obscura, I can stealing all your stuff with Dack, but as long as its in hand I can't play Dack. Eventually you cast Fury and I can't counter or race with Sprite. LL 0-6

14 points (4 wins, 2 draws)

I really wanted to play Dack + Coating one of these rounds but could never find the right mana + support/wincon. Because it's the last round I wanted to play it anyway, but would have done better with one of my "good but boring" ideas.

I had a variation that was Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating, Tolarian Academy (lolbo with Coating), Ensoul Artifact. It had the advantage of being able to play everything in one turn and having a faster clock, but I was nervous to play no counters. I chose the 3cmc one for Windfall, the Helm/Grapeshot deck, the Monolith/Power Artifact deck, enemy counterspells/discard (to protect Dack), and potential goblin combos. It misses Soul Spike though.

Other decks I had on the table...
T0 Discard: Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Tourach, Dread Cantor
T1 Discard: Windfall, Swords to Plowshares, Corpulent Corpse, Flip the Switch
Combo: Collective Brutality, Serra's Emissary, Unburial Rites, Bottomless Vault (or Dark Rit/Peat Bog or Eiganjo+Resurrection - different advantages for each)
Discard3: Godless Shrine, Mind Swords, Roc Egg, Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage
Fair jank: Dryad Arbor, Bloodhall Ooze, Valki, God of Lies, Make Disappear

[dte]

1. silkster: Luminarch Aspirant, Thought Erasure, Psychic Strike, Disrupting Shoal
3-3 discard mirror
3

2. Dooey: March of Otherworldly Light, Darksteel Citadel, Ensoul Artifact, Withering Boon
6-0, discard counter and 2 dreadnough vs 1 removal and a smaller creature. Trample matters here.
9

3. Asthereal: Grapeshot, Helm of Awakening, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top
6-0. Where trickbind shines.
15

4. dte: Trickbind, Dread Fugue, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought
Me, thinking that this is a nice level of disruption and threat. From round 1 I thought I always wanted to play for the last round 2 x Chancellor of the dross, soul spike, Hidetsugu's second rite, a nice T0 reminder of the last season, but the scores are too close on the season to risk not playing what I thought was the best deck.

5. Wrath of Pie: Despise, Ajani Vengeant, Bottomless Vault, Garruk Relentless
3-3, discard mirror
18

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Priest of Gix, Nether Void, Delay, Wasteland
3-3.
21

7. jfb1337: Obscura Interceptor, Blazing Rootwalla, Fury, Dwarven Hold
6-0
27

8. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Hypnotic Sprite, Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating
4-1. I agree on draw when I am OTD. when I am OTP, I discard your sprite for B (it only costs UU, so no need to cleave), play and copy dreadnought for RW, and I do have UG to trickbind dack steal.
31.

Turns out being more brave and playing chancellor / soul spike / Hidetsugu would be 30, so almost identical result.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Final Round"

1. silkster: Luminarch Aspirant, Thought Erasure, Psychic Strike, Disrupting Shoal
2 counters :( 0-6

2. Dooey: March of Otherworldly Light, Darksteel Citadel, Ensoul Artifact, Withering Boon
Darksteel smash :( 0-6

3. Asthereal: Grapeshot, Helm of Awakening, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top
Into the void 6-0

4. dte: Trickbind, Dread Fugue, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought
Into the void, then discard 3-3

5. Wrath of Pie: Despise, Ajani Vengeant, Bottomless Vault, Garruk Relentless
Into the void 4-1

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Priest of Gix, Nether Void, Delay, Wasteland
That's me, mixing it up from Goblins

7. jfb1337: Obscura Interceptor, Blazing Rootwalla, Fury, Dwarven Hold
Into the void 2-2

8. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Hypnotic Sprite, Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating
Into the void 6-0

Total: 21 points?

[Dooey]

2. Dooey: March of Otherworldly Light, Darksteel Citadel, Ensoul Artifact, Withering Boon

1. silkster: Luminarch Aspirant, Thought Erasure, Psychic Strike, Disrupting Shoal

You stop my threat, I stop yours. DD

3. Asthereal: Grapeshot, Helm of Awakening, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top

March any of your permanents. WW

4. dte: Trickbind, Dread Fugue, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought

Can keep you on 1 nought, but it has trample. LL

5. Wrath of Pie: Despise, Ajani Vengeant, Bottomless Vault, Garruk Relentless

I make scissors but can't attack. You hold your planeswalkers until you can play both. If I attack, you play ajani and lock down my scissors then win with garruk. If I don't, you play garruk, and make a blocker. If I don't march it and kill garruk, you make another one and I'm really screwed, so I do that. Then you play ajani and lock down my scissors until you have arbitrary loyalty on ajani. Then you start -2ing ajani, and your 6 point swing per turn beats my 5. LL

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Priest of Gix, Nether Void, Delay, Wasteland

You don't have a line to stop my threat, and my threat is good. WW.

7. jfb1337: Obscura Interceptor, Blazing Rootwalla, Fury, Dwarven Hold

Make scissors. You intercept, I counter, I outrace. WW

8. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Hypnotic Sprite, Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating

My interaction is bad against yours and yours is good against mine. LL

6W2D

Was expecting indestructible to be a lot more relevant than it was. Still did win some games though.

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores for the final round:

1. silkster: Luminarch Aspirant, Thought Erasure, Psychic Strike, Disrupting Shoal LL
Shoal my Helm, Erasure my Grapeshot, any wincon will do.
2. Dooey: March of Otherworldly Light, Darksteel Citadel, Ensoul Artifact, Withering Boon LL
March my Helm, any wincon will do.
3. Asthereal: Grapeshot, Helm of Awakening, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top <-me
I had to play a turn 1 kill, seeing it still legal by the final round. Probably a bad call though.
4. dte: Trickbind, Dread Fugue, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought LL
Trickbind the Grapeshot storm trigger, any wincon will do.
5. Wrath of Pie: Despise, Ajani Vengeant, Bottomless Vault, Garruk Relentless WW
No interaction, so I get to go off.
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Priest of Gix, Nether Void, Delay, Wasteland LL
Delay my Helm, then Nether Void stops me entirely, and any wincon will do.
7. jfb1337: Obscura Interceptor, Blazing Rootwalla, Fury, Dwarven Hold WW
I have two mana to spare in my combo, so I can recast my Helm and still go off. Bouncing a Top does nothing, and of course bouncing Grapeshot is just silly. So I get to go off.
8. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Hypnotic Sprite, Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating LL
Sprite counters my Helm. I fI wait to go off, you make many manas with the Cove, and drop Dack in order to eat my hand. After that, the Sprite will murder me.

Total: 12 points

[dte]

3. Asthereal: Grapeshot, Helm of Awakening, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top <-me
I had to play a turn 1 kill, seeing it still legal by the final round. Probably a bad call though.
...
Total: 12 points

I was wondering why you had much less than the 30 I calculated for the T0 kill I wanted to play and whether it was T1 vs T0. Answer is, because I got most MUs wrong :/

[jfb1337]

7. jfb1337: Obscura Interceptor, Blazing Rootwalla, Fury, Dwarven Hold

1. silkster: Luminarch Aspirant, Thought Erasure, Psychic Strike, Disrupting Shoal
DD - Several variations of the order of cards played, but ultimately strike trades with interceptor and pitchcast fury trades with aspirant

2. Dooey: March of Otherworldly Light, Darksteel Citadel, Ensoul Artifact, Withering Boon
LL - I can't beat or stop scissors through boon

3. Asthereal: Grapeshot, Helm of Awakening, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top
LL - This combo works through interceptor

4. dte: Trickbind, Dread Fugue, The Mycosynth Gardens, Phyrexian Dreadnought
LL - I can't stop a dreadnaut

5. Wrath of Pie: Despise, Ajani Vengeant, Bottomless Vault, Garruk Relentless
??
this is pretty complicated, still figuring out all the lines

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Priest of Gix, Nether Void, Delay, Wasteland
DD - You preist + void, I pitch fury on priest, which you can't delay.

8. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Hypnotic Sprite, Dack Fayden, Liquimetal Coating
WW - I'll trust your workings

Total: 2W4D = 10 + whatever I get from WoP

[silkster]

4CB - CEILING SEASON

Every round there will be a "ceiling deck", and all submissions must lose 0-6 to this deck. After round 1, the ceiling deck will be the lowest scoring deck* of the previous round, which I will declare a few days after the decklists are posted. This will be locked in, so if scores are corrected, it won't change the ceiling deck. If results aren't yet full, I'll just make my best guess.
*Exceptions will be made at my discretion if this makes no or vanishingly few legal decks.


Legality: paper vintage, thus excluding Alchemy and other online-only cards.
Additional Bans: Unfinity, Shahrazad, dungeons and other cards from outside the game.

We will play 9 rounds, getting round points each round, and in the end we'll take the sum of the top 7. This was approximately how we graded math quizzes in university and it saved so many headaches of people missing for this reason or that reason. I kinda think an entry or two might be found to be illegal after the fact, so this seems like a good safety net.

I'm sometimes really bad at making arbitrary choices, so we'll have a bit of a warm-up pre-round. For the pre-round, submit any deck. For this round only, the deck with the median score will be chosen as the ceiling deck for round 1. So just submit whatever you feel like. This is also a good opportunity for me to test out using google forms. Entries for warm-up round are open.

Ceiling Season Entry Form (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeLKuFpmx8lGLrMnvnXbfxo28NCgw1ST_5hQOMsiyPYRFFOmA/viewform?usp=sf_link)

Decks will be posted on Tuesdays at 11:00 am EDT (New York time). The plan is to choose the next ceiling deck around Thursday (at which point you can submit), I'll try to lock in my deck on Friday or Saturday, and I'll do my best to verify legality of submitted decks on Sunday or Monday. You can change your deck by submitting a new one any time before the lists posted.

[dte]

Sounds very fun, entry submitted!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Suggestion: the Ceiling of the previous round must score a win.
Use case: I submit Wastes Wastes Ancient tomb Wastes

[dte]

Suggestion: the Ceiling of the previous round must score a win.
Use case: I submit Wastes Wastes Ancient tomb Wastes

Suggestion2: the Ceiling of the previous round must be able to score a win.

[Wrath of Pie]

I look forward to Asthereal submitting Thalakos Lowlands.

I would also change the dungeon ban to simply cards from outside the game, that way everything is covered, even potential new mechanics.

[FTW]

Suggestion2: the Ceiling of the previous round must be able to score a win.

Be able to score a win against what? The deck I submitted is capable of winning... against very specific decks.

[dte]

Be able to score a win against what? The deck I submitted is capable of winning... against very specific decks.

I think Silkster can evaluate and decide that, and chose the hand that will bring constraints yet leave some possible diversity.

Taking a deck that had a win immediately shows a legal contender (the deck it won against).

[silkster]

Be able to score a win against what? The deck I submitted is capable of winning... against very specific decks.

I think dte is saying that the real issue that comes up is that if the ceiling deck is 4 basic lands, then there will literally be no possible legal submissions that week. So a deck like Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Wolfcaller's Howl, Reality Smasher technically passes because it beats something. I don't think this is likely because people should be submitting decks that are actually trying to win, but in order to safeguard against this I have assigned myself the power to veto decks if I want. :cool:

I haven't looked at the submissions yet, nor have I submitted my own, but I think I'm glad for how I ran this pre-round. I was having a really hard time choosing a deck, and I considered taking votes or suggestions, but it's a bit awkward because you can't compromise halfway between decks. By choosing the median, we're basically voting on the power level.

It's probably not important, but I'll specify that if there is an even number of entries, I'll go with the lower median. And if scores tie, I'll go with the earliest submitted deck. By declaring this now, I relieve myself from potentially having to make a judgment. :smile:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How are we on new cards? Like the mh3 spoilers which will be happening the whole time this is happening

[silkster]

How are we on new cards? Like the mh3 spoilers which will be happening the whole time this is happening

Oh, that's a good point. I haven't followed new sets in a few years now, so I forgot about this. I think introducing cards mid-season is fine (in a banathon it's a bit strange to add cards that would have been banned much earlier had they been legal). So I'm going to say that legality for the upcoming week is checked when the lists of the previous round are posted. So legality for round 1 is checked on Tuesday, May 7.

[Reeplcheep]

I’m confused. The term ceiling and lowest scoring conflict. Are we trying to build the strongest deck that loses to something? Or the weakest deck? If you are just building the weakest deck why is the ceiling relevant?
We should probably have a ceiling deck for the first round.

[FTW]

I was confused too. I thought this was like Backbuild and submitted a deck that can't win much.

So we are trying to win games against each other but lose to the "ceiling deck"? So for Round 1 we are just trying to win period?

[Wrath of Pie]

I’m confused. The term ceiling and lowest scoring conflict. Are we trying to build the strongest deck that loses to something? Or the weakest deck? If you are just building the weakest deck why is the ceiling relevant?
We should probably have a ceiling deck for the first round.

Still trying to win, just has to lose to the sample hand.

I'm guessing the reason that there is a warm-up round is that we really don't need to argue incessantly over whatever the starting hand should be, which is always the worst part.

[silkster]

Wrath of Pie has it right. You are trying to win. The legal decks are the decks that lose to the ceiling deck of the round. So you're looking for the "best/strongest" deck each round.

We will have a ceiling deck in the first round. We're just having a "submit anything" warm-up round to determine what the round 1 ceiling deck will be. You can view this round as a vote and the winner is the one in the middle.

Personally, I'm aiming to submit a deck that ends up being the median. It's an interesting challenge to think about. But you can submit anything you want. Lotus + Thassa's Oracle + Leyline of Anticipation + Street Wraith will make a whole lot of decks legal the following round. Island + Island + Island + Merchant of Secrets would make far fewer decks legal. We probably won't end up with a deck like those because they would score far too many or far too few points in this warm-up round. It's also a chance to submit joke decks like four dogs in a horse suit. Or a silly collection of lesser known goblins. You're welcome to resubmit if you misunderstood the warm-up (or if you want to for any other reason). I haven't looked at any of the submissions yet.

[Asthereal]

Okay so the plan is this:
We create the best deck possible (trying to win) which still loses 0-6 against the ceiling deck?
And then we have a new ceiling deck each round, which is reveiled at the opening of submissions for that round?

If true, I'm still not sure what that line "After round 1, the ceiling deck will be the lowest scoring deck* of the previous round" means.

[dte]

Okay so the plan is this:
We create the best deck possible (trying to win) which still loses 0-6 against the ceiling deck?
And then we have a new ceiling deck each round, which is reveiled at the opening of submissions for that round?

If true, I'm still not sure what that line "After round 1, the ceiling deck will be the lowest scoring deck* of the previous round" means.

The deck/hand that got the smallest amount of points, and was then likely the weakest deck/hand in the metagame, becomes the ceiling deck/hand. You hope yours is never chosen.

I would think it a good idea to not allow the use of the cards in the current ceiling deck. Mimick/clone deck is no fun.

[Asthereal]

The deck/hand that got the smallest amount of points, and was then likely the weakest deck/hand in the metagame, becomes the ceiling deck/hand. You hope yours is never chosen.

I would think it a good idea to not allow the use of the cards in the current ceiling deck. Mimick/clone deck is no fun.
Ooh right, that makes sense. Not sure why my brain didn't go there.

And for your second point: that's a good idea, temporarily banning the cards of the ceiling deck each round could add to the fun.

[Wrath of Pie]

I would think it a good idea to not allow the use of the cards in the current ceiling deck. Mimick/clone deck is no fun.
Mimicking is still going to happen, even though it's never really a winning strategy (akin to going as slow as possible in Backbuild).

You do have a fair point in not allowing the cards in the ceiling hand, though.

[silkster]

I would think it a good idea to not allow the use of the cards in the current ceiling deck. Mimick/clone deck is no fun.

I've been thinking about this this week, but there are just so many identical or near-identical cards that I don't expect the banning of cards in the current ceiling deck to reduce mimicking. That said, we might as well ban them.

[silkster]

Ceiling Season - Pre-Round

dte: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Utopia mycon, Leyline of the Guildpact, Coalition Victory, comment: It is May first, so "United, saproling & Fungus shall prevail!".
Reeplcheep: Bazaar of Baghdad Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, comment: Hoping for wheel decks
GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Annex Solitude, Hearthfire Hobgoblin, Fountain of Cho, comment: Goblin Smash!
Wrath of Pie: Fountain of Cho Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, comment: Too bad I can't actually submit all the Elspeths
FTW: Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Subtlety, comment: Not Backbuild!
Fourdogs Ina Horsesuit: Channel fireball, gruul turf, forest, comment: CFB
Silkster: Mountain Mountain, Shock, Chandra's Magmutt, comment:

We'll do scores for this round, to determine what will be the ceiling deck next round. We will also put temporary bans each round on the cards in the ceiling deck (not including basic lands).

Link to the pre-round scores page: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oh70b6NceKZjkOm10DTwD0Z6nNvNcZv_8Td8SI8epe0/edit#gid=1491769699

[silkster]

dte: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Utopia mycon, Leyline of the Guildpact, Coalition Victory, comment: It is May first, so "United, saproling & Fungus shall prevail!".
WW - Shock too good.

Reeplcheep: Bazaar of Baghdad Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, comment: Hoping for wheel decks
LL - So much power here!

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Annex Solitude, Hearthfire Hobgoblin, Fountain of Cho, comment: Goblin Smash!
LL - I can get my 2/2 into play, but it's nowhere near fast enough.

Wrath of Pie: Fountain of Cho Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, comment: Too bad I can't actually submit all the Elspeths
LL - This is almost complicated, but I think I lose most convincingly to turn-7 Tirel who makes enough blockers to trade and then gains life.

FTW: Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Subtlety, comment: Not Backbuild!
LL - I very briefly considered submitting a deck like this.

Fourdogs Ina Horsesuit: Channel fireball, grull turf, forest, comment: CFB
DD - I burn you, you burn my creature.

Silkster: Mountain Mountain, Shock, Chandra's Magmutt, comment:
I thought this would be more middle-of-the-road. I'm curious which of these will win the most medium.

[FTW]

FTW: Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Subtlety, comment: Not Backbuild!

dte: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Utopia mycon, Leyline of the Guildpact, Coalition Victory, comment: It is May first, so "United, saproling & Fungus shall prevail!".
Force Mycon, Thassa WW 6-0

Reeplcheep: Bazaar of Baghdad Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, comment: Hoping for wheel decks
Counter 1 creature, Thassa WW 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Annex Solitude, Hearthfire Hobgoblin, Fountain of Cho, comment: Goblin Smash!
Evoke Subtlety, countered by Chancellor, Thassa WW 6-0

Wrath of Pie: Fountain of Cho Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, comment: Too bad I can't actually submit all the Elspeths
Thassa WW 6-0

Fourdogs Ina Horsesuit: Channel fireball, grull turf, forest, comment: CFB
Thassa WW 6-0

Silkster: Mountain Mountain, Shock, Chandra's Magmutt, comment:
Thassa WW 6-0

36 points (12 W)

I went full-tilt from "can't win" Show and Tell Phage the Untouchable to Tier S. Did not understand this round.
First submission would have scored 0 points (12 L).

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Pre-Round"

dte: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Utopia mycon, Leyline of the Guildpact, Coalition Victory, comment: It is May first, so "United, saproling & Fungus shall prevail!".
Hobgoblin smash! 6-0

Reeplcheep: Bazaar of Baghdad Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, comment: Hoping for wheel decks
Hobgoblin smash! 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Annex Solitude, Hearthfire Hobgoblin, Fountain of Cho, comment: Goblin Smash!
Hobgoblins too strong :(

Wrath of Pie: Fountain of Cho Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, comment: Too bad I can't actually submit all the Elspeths
Elspeth smash 0-6

FTW: Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Subtlety, comment: Not Backbuild!
Thassa 0-6

Fourdogs Ina Horsesuit: Channel fireball, gruul turf, forest, comment: CFB
Hobgoblin smash! 6-0

Silkster: Mountain Mountain, Shock, Chandra's Magmutt, comment:
Hobgoblin smash! 6-0

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

dte: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Utopia mycon, Leyline of the Guildpact, Coalition Victory, comment: It is May first, so "United, saproling & Fungus shall prevail!"
WW FIREBALL!
Reeplcheep: Bazaar of Baghdad Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, comment: Hoping for wheel decks
LL a 1/1? Unbeatable!
GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Annex Solitude, Hearthfire Hobgoblin, Fountain of Cho, comment: Goblin Smash!
LL a chancellor? Unbeatable!
Wrath of Pie: Fountain of Cho Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, comment: Too bad I can't actually submit all the Elspeths
WW FIREBALL!
FTW: Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Subtlety, comment: Not Backbuild!
LL We doing this for real?
Fourdogs Ina Horsesuit: Channel fireball, gruul turf, forest, comment: CFB
Me
Silkster: Mountain Mountain, Shock, Chandra's Magmutt, comment:
DD A shock? Unbeatable!

[dte]

dte: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Utopia mycon, Leyline of the Guildpact, Coalition Victory, comment: It is May first, so "United, saproling & Fungus shall prevail!".
Me, with one of the most control land legacy offers & a wincon that bypass the attack phase. That is crucial, combat maths can be tricky.

Reeplcheep: Bazaar of Baghdad Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, comment: Hoping for wheel decks
6-0, allies victory.
6

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Annex Solitude, Hearthfire Hobgoblin, Fountain of Cho, comment: Goblin Smash!
0-6, too much control!

Wrath of Pie: Fountain of Cho Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, comment: Too bad I can't actually submit all the Elspeth
0-6. Too bad you chose elspeth that can get rid of lleylines!
6

FTW: Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Subtlety, comment: Not Backbuild!
0-6. I fail to see the subtlety here.
6

Fourdogs Ina Horsesuit: Channel fireball, gruul turf, forest, comment: CFB
2-2. That is some big fire for a little fungus.
8

Silkster: Mountain Mountain, Shock, Chandra's Magmutt
0-6. Shock is too good a removal.

Total 8.

[silkster]

Fourdogs Ina Horsesuit: Channel fireball, gruul turf, forest, comment: CFB
2-2. That is some big fire for a little fungus.
8

Silkster: Mountain Mountain, Shock, Chandra's Magmutt
0-6. Shock is too good a removal.

Doesn't Fourdogs just kill you on turn 3 before you can do damage on turn 5?
I almost played Spark Spray instead of the Shock. :)

[FTW]

FTW: Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Subtlety, comment: Not Backbuild!
0-6. I fail to see the subtlety here.
6.

I missed some of the rules everyone else seemed to understand:
- This week is PRE-Round (aka Round 0, not Round 1)
- Pre-Round does NOT count towards season score

My submission makes more sense under that context

[silkster]

I missed some of the rules everyone else seemed to understand:
- This week is PRE-Round (aka Round 0, not Round 1)
- Pre-Round does NOT count towards season score

My submission makes more sense under that context

I think dte was mostly just making a pun on "subtlety", though I missed it on first pass.

I realize that I forgot to declare how to make tie-breakers for the lowest scoring deck of the round, so I'll make it now. A deck that is submitted earlier scores higher for the purposes of determining a ceiling deck. The deck submitted later scores lower.

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Fountain of Cho Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Elspeth Tirel, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, comment: Too bad I can't actually submit all the Elspeths

dte: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Utopia mycon, Leyline of the Guildpact, Coalition Victory, comment: It is May first, so "United, saproling & Fungus shall prevail!". - WW
Reeplcheep: Bazaar of Baghdad Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine, comment: Hoping for wheel decks - LL
GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Annex Solitude, Hearthfire Hobgoblin, Fountain of Cho, comment: Goblin Smash! - WW
FTW: Black Lotus Thassa's Oracle, Force of Will, Subtlety, comment: Not Backbuild! - LL - Comment needed more subtle puns, although at least you did live up to your username.
Fourdogs Ina Horsesuit: Channel fireball, gruul turf, forest, comment: CFB - LL
Silkster: Mountain Mountain, Shock, Chandra's Magmutt, comment: - WW

6w = 18 points

All the Elspeths manages to be just average, nothing more and nothing less. (I think Reeplcheep also managed to be average.)

[dte]

Doesn't Fourdogs just kill you on turn 3 before you can do damage on turn 5?

How can 4dogs kill - me or anyone?

[FTW]

How can 4dogs kill - me or anyone?

Good point. 4 4/4 dogs + a 3/3 horse can only deal 19 damage.

GG: Channel
R: Fireball, pay 19 life, X=19

Channel can only make 19 mana, so the combo needs a 4th mana to be lethal.

[Asthereal]

Good point. 4 4/4 dogs + a 3/3 horse can only deal 19 damage.

GG: Channel
R: Fireball, pay 19 life, X=19

Channel can only make 19 mana, so the combo needs a 4th mana to be lethal.

Oh no. We have a problem. :laugh:

So 4Dogs will score the lowest from all decks.
Which means his deck becomes the ceiling deck for round 1.
Which means we'll need to create a deck that loses 0-6 to his deck.
Which we cannot do, because his deck cannot win.

Oops.

So we should probably change the rule to: "The ceiling deck for next round is the lowest scoring deck from this round that is capable of beating Island, Island, Island, Island."

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I swear it was not intentional that I did the thing I warned would happen if there was no floor. I am just that bad at this.

[dte]

Oh no. We have a problem. :laugh:

So 4Dogs will score the lowest from all decks.
Which means his deck becomes the ceiling deck for round 1.
Which means we'll need to create a deck that loses 0-6 to his deck.
Which we cannot do, because his deck cannot win.

Oops.

So we should probably change the rule to: "The ceiling deck for next round is the lowest scoring deck from this round that is capable of beating Island, Island, Island, Island."


I swear it was not intentional that I did the thing I warned would happen if there was no floor. I am just that bad at this.

Everything is fine, we take the median deck after R0. Maybe some bazaar deck, or an elspeth one, or another one.

And I think Silkster has autocrat's rights when it comes to chosing the next ceiling deck, so no issue even if it happens again.

[FTW]

With adjusted results, Reeplcheep's deck wins most average!

For future rounds silk could use discretion for the ceiling deck, perhaps choosing the 2nd-lowest scoring deck if the lowest scoring deck has a problem. Like Backbuild some of us will make mistakes or illegal decks some rounds. No big deal.


So we should probably change the rule to: "The ceiling deck for next round is the lowest scoring deck from this round that is capable of beating Island, Island, Island, Island."

Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Kukemssa Serpent, Wolfcaller's Howl

Island is too strong in all formats, even in 4CB.

[dte]

Rushwood Grove, Vesuva, Kukemssa Serpent, Wolfcaller's Howl

That is a perfine ceiling deck, no?

[Wrath of Pie]

With adjusted results, Reeplcheep's deck wins most average!
Oh good, the Elspeths can return.

[silkster]

Yeah, you've got everything figured out. I missed that Fourdogs is short by one mana. Also, this round uses the median deck, so no worries. And if someone accidentally submits a deck that like this that can't win, my autocrat powers will choose the second lowest scoring deck. Exactly what qualifies as being weak enough for me to exclude is hard to specify (this would have been excluded), but I don't expect to run into this problem because, from now on, you are trying to win.

Ceiling Season - Round 1

Congrats to Reeplcheep for submitting the most medium deck! Had I thought of it last week, I would have assigned a bonus round point to the winner of the most medium deck.

This week's ceiling deck is Bazaar of Baghdad, Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Vengevine

All entries must lose 6-0 to this deck. Format is vintage (no restrictions), minus Unfinity, Shahrazad, and extra cards.
Additionally, Bazaar of Baghdad, Blazing Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, and Vengevine are banned this week only.

You may now submit your entries using the form in my signature. I have not yet made my deck, which I plan to do over the weekend. On Sunday or Monday, after locking in my deck, I will look over the entries and do my best to confirm their legality. Lists for round 1 will be posted around 11:00am EDT on Tuesday, May 14.

I think that covers everything, but y'all are really good at finding mistakes and edge cases.

[Wrath of Pie]

Basking Rootwalla is not the same card as Blazing Rootwalla

[silkster]

Basking Rootwalla is not the same card as Blazing Rootwalla

I was right that I would get something wrong! Fixed now. Thanks.

[FTW]

Basking Rootwalla is not the same card as Blazing Rootwalla

I wonder if that was intentional, including a functional equivalent so both are banned.

Edit: I was wrong that I was right about silkster being right instead of wrong

[silkster]

Because hashing in SHA256 is fun: 79abb5e2828ab8023664eb7e662036f507d8067f7e79be3cf0d8c65c3184fe46
(Ignore if this means nothing to you.)

I'm going to check decks for legality now. One of the decks I was excited for was actually illegal. It's so easy to fly too close to the sun!

[Asthereal]

Because hashing in SHA256 is fun: 79abb5e2828ab8023664eb7e662036f507d8067f7e79be3cf0d8c65c3184fe46
(Ignore if this means nothing to you.)

I'm going to check decks for legality now. One of the decks I was excited for was actually illegal. It's so easy to fly too close to the sun!
Am I correct in assuming you'll PM the person with the illegal deck?

[silkster]

Am I correct in assuming you'll PM the person with the illegal deck?

Yes, I will. I didn't catch one last night, but I think I caught one just now. PM has been sent.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Stickers and Attractions were just solved for us

[FTW]

WOTC must have realized that if EVEN 4CB doesn't want it, those mechanics are just a nuisance.

[silkster]

Ceiling Season - Round 1

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Annex, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap, comment: Goblin smash!
Asthereal: Black Lotus, Wistful Thinking, Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho, comment:
dte: black lotus, chancellor of the annex, strip mine, bitterblossom, comment:
Silkster: Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch, comment: Solitude too strong
Reeplcheep: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, Anje's Ravager, Burning Inquiry, comment:
Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Durkwood Baloth, comment:
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, comment: More subtle this time?

Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch; Solitude too strong

Edit to add link to round 1 scores: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iltb_CG_ICKhRG2HphQvMXwjhFjo15xfSfpyvZo6DKU/edit#gid=1812765301

[silkster]

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Annex, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap, comment: Goblin smash!
DD

Asthereal: Black Lotus, Wistful Thinking, Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho, comment:
WW

dte: black lotus, chancellor of the annex, strip mine, bitterblossom, comment:
LL - Bitterblossom is smart. I was maybe too worried about needing to cast a win condition.

Silkster: Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch, comment: Solitude too strong
I originally had Solitude instead of Blazing Torch, but thankfully caught that that was too strong. Hopefully this deck is legal, cause it's flying really close to the sun. I was so happy with my discovery of Blazing Torch, and then no one played the deck I was so worried about. :tongue:


Reeplcheep: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, Anje's Ravager, Burning Inquiry, comment:
WW

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Durkwood Baloth, comment:
WW

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, comment: More subtle this time?
WW - I love the timing of this deck that makes it legal.

8W, 2D, 2L = 26

Not a ton of deck diversity, but enough. My first few decks were more discard or anti-discard focused (featuring Wheel/Inquiry or Nullhide Ferox), but free counters are just so good. The fact that Bazaar + Vengevine shrugs off counters made for interesting legalities. Whichever of these decks ends up on the bottom, it's going to be quite powerful!

[dte]

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Annex, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap, comment: Goblin smash!
6-0 Annex + land > annex without land
6

Asthereal: Black Lotus, Wistful Thinking, Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho,
6-0 Annex + strip mine > annex + storeland
12

dte: black lotus, chancellor of the annex, strip mine, bitterblossom, comment:
me. I was almost instantly sure of the first three cards. Bitterblossom is a bit random, but it seemed like a strong wincon that was losing easily to VV.

Silkster: Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch, comment: Solitude too strong
6-0 BB > single gob
18

Reeplcheep: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, Anje's Ravager, Burning Inquiry, comment:
6-0, annex
24

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Durkwood Baloth, comment:
6-0, annex + strip mine
30

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, comment: More subtle this time?
6-0, annex + strip mine > Fow + storeland
36

Full sweep!
Or maybe I miscalculated something :/

[silkster]

Full sweep!
Or maybe I miscalculated something :/

When checking for illegal entries, I noticed right away that your deck was winning, but I didn't see just how winning it was and kicked myself for not thinking of BB. In my list of brainstormed decks, only one version of Lab Man beat BB (which is why I had Torch for 2 damage), and one deck is too close for me to figure out. (Who wins between T1 BB and T1 3/4?)

[dte]

Who wins between T1 BB and T1 3/4?

It is WL 3-3.

[FTW]

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, comment: More subtle this time?

Given the ceiling deck I focused too much on discard, but should have watched out for Chancellor + LD.


GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Annex, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap
I can charge 1 more to pay for Chancellor, T6 Lab Man with Force backup. WW 6-0

Asthereal: Black Lotus, Wistful Thinking, Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho
I can't both pay for Chancellor and Force turn 1 discard. LL 0-6

dte: black lotus, chancellor of the annex, strip mine, bitterblossom
I can duck Chancellor by evoking Subtlety, but Strip Mine gets me. LL 0-6

Silkster: Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch
Can't beat Chancellor + Strip mine. LL 0-6

Reeplcheep: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, threat, Burning Inquiry
Force Lotus WW 6-0

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Durkwood Baloth
Lab Man races Baloth, so all I have to do is charge my land. If you Sea's Claim, I Force it. If you don't and try to Force Lab Man, I Force your Force. WW 6-0


Total: 18 points (6 wins, 6 losses)

[Reeplcheep]

I thought my entry was changed from nether spirit to Anje’s ravager?

[FTW]

I thought my entry was changed from nether spirit to Anje’s ravager?

I quoted silkster's post, but noticed others after that are not consistent. Some have Nether Spirit, some have Ravager. I'll switch to Ravager.

[silkster]

I thought my entry was changed from nether spirit to Anje’s ravager?

Sorry for the mistake! It's definitely Anje's Ravager.

Here's what happened. I posted the correct lists. Then I tried to click reply to the posted lists so that I could do my results, but I accidentally clicked edit instead. So the post of the lists became my post of my results. And then I tried to scramble quickly to fix it, but I was doing quick copy pastes all over the place and I got the wrong one. Fixed now.

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Durkwood Baloth, comment:

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Annex, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap, comment: Goblin smash! - WW
Asthereal: Black Lotus, Wistful Thinking, Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho, comment: - WL
dte: black lotus, chancellor of the annex, strip mine, bitterblossom, comment: - LL
Silkster: Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch, comment: Solitude too strong - LL
Reeplcheep: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, Anje's Ravager, Burning Inquiry, comment: - WW - This was a really bad metagame for Leyline of Anticipation. At least I know what we're likely losing to next round!
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, comment: More subtle this time? - LL

5w = 15 points

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Round 1: Chancellors!"

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Annex, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap
That's me on Goblins!

Asthereal: Black Lotus, Wistful Thinking, Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho, comment:
Chancellor :( 0-6

dte: black lotus, chancellor of the annex, strip mine, bitterblossom, comment:
Chancellor :( 0-6

Silkster: Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch, comment: Solitude too strong
Goblins! 2-2

Reeplcheep: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, Anje's Ravager, Burning Inquiry, comment:
Goblin smash! 6-0

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Durkwood Baloth, comment:
You use the force :( 0-6

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, comment: More subtle this time?
You use the force :( 0-6

8 goblin points

[silkster]

Some scores from this round might change, but I'm going to lock in the next ceiling deck: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, Anje's Ravager, Burning Inquiry.

Feel free to send in entries (form in signature). At some point over the weekend I'll lock in my deck and then check the entries for deck legality.

Don't forget (as I just did) that those 4 cards are banned this round.

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores for round 1:

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Annex, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap WW
Asthereal: Black Lotus, Wistful Thinking, Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho <-me
dte: black lotus, chancellor of the annex, strip mine, bitterblossom LL (Bitterblossom, nice find!)
Silkster: Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch LL
Reeplcheep: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, Anje's Ravager, Burning Inquiry WW
Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Durkwood Baloth WL
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety WW

Total: 21 points. Not bad.

EDIT: never mind my last remark.

[Reeplcheep]

Reeplcheep: Leyline of Anticipation , Black Lotus, Anje's Ravager, Burning Inquiry, comment:
If my ceiling deck was made to beat wheel decks, t0 wheel has to be good right?

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Annex, Force of Will, Mindbreak Trap, comment: Goblin smash!
Asthereal: Black Lotus, Wistful Thinking, Chancellor of the Annex, Fountain of Cho, comment:
dte: black lotus, chancellor of the annex, strip mine, bitterblossom, comment:
Silkster: Strip Mine, Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Torch, comment: Solitude too strong
Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Durkwood Baloth, comment:
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, comment: More subtle this time?

Apparently I’m very good at being the ceiling deck. 0 W 0D 12 L

[Asthereal]

Apparently I’m very good at being the ceiling deck. 0 W 0D 12 L
Just say you got confused and went for backbuild. In which case: well done! :wink:

[silkster]

Locked in my list. I'll check for illegal decks in the morning though.

b17fa6634a18c69bcc56c90ae92c3119a803615df2728dc93dc078b9ab29087b

[silkster]

Five entries so far and they all look legal too me.

[Asthereal]

Five entries so far and they all look legal too me.

Sent something in real quick. It's probably crap but that's okay. Busy weekend.

[silkster]

Ceiling Season - Round 2 Lists

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo, comment: Goblin Smash!
dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire , comment:
Reeplcheep: Cavern of Souls, Thassa’s Oracle, Leyline of Sanctity, Razortide Bridge, comment: Interaction is overrated
Silkster: Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze, comment: who needs negation anyway?
Wrath of Pie: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck, comment:
FTW: Subtlety, Force of Negation, Strip Mine, Chronomaton, comment: Subtle variations
Asthereal: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs, comment: bit late, had a chess tourney

Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze; go robot man!

Scoresheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oh70b6NceKZjkOm10DTwD0Z6nNvNcZv_8Td8SI8epe0/edit#gid=1279858374

[silkster]

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo, comment: Goblin Smash!
WL - Oh damn, I did need that Force of Negation.

dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire , comment:
WL - I considered this deck (thought with Petal because I forgot about Moxen), which is notable because none of the other decks were on my radar.

Reeplcheep: Cavern of Souls, Thassa’s Oracle, Leyline of Sanctity, Razortide Bridge, comment: Interaction is overrated
LL - Whelp, those are the cards that exactly invalidate everything I'm trying to do.

Silkster: Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze, comment: who needs negation anyway?
I didn't love it, but I couldn't think of anything better.

Wrath of Pie: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck, comment:
WL

FTW: Subtlety, Force of Negation, Strip Mine, Chronomaton, comment: Subtle variations
DD - There are many decisions from both sides, and I thought it was DL for a while, but I think it's just a draw.

Asthereal: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs, comment: bit late, had a chess tourney
WL - Hey, this is the deck that beats the darn Cavern of Souls + Leyline of Sanctity!

4W, 2D, 6L = 14/36.

My initial thought was UU tapland, Oracle, Force of Negation, Subtlety, and it was beating everything else that I could think of. I thought this was the deck to beat, so that's where I went. A fairly tight meta, but somehow I didn't think of most of it. I am pleasantly surprised, though, that mimicking the ceiling deck hasn't really been an option. I guess Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, and Burning Inquiry are irreplaceable.

[dte]

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo, comment: Goblin Smash!
How would that be legal? OTP you do have your token, whatever the other deck is doing you can pump it to 20/1 haste, and you should be able to draw?
Goblins too strong :/
I'll write 6-0 for now.
3-3

dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire , comment:
Me. Not very imaginative, but hard to beat OTD. I first really wanted to play FoN, but could not make a deck with it that did not fold to strip mine.

Reeplcheep: Cavern of Souls, Thassa’s Oracle, Leyline of Sanctity, Razortide Bridge, comment: Interaction is overrated
6-0.
Speed is underrated.
9

Silkster: Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze, comment: who needs negation anyway?
3-3
12

Wrath of Pie: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck, comment:
4-1
16

FTW: Subtlety, Force of Negation, Strip Mine, Chronomaton, comment: Subtle variations
4-1
20

Asthereal: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs, comment: bit late, had a chess tourney
3-3
23




dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire , comment:
WL - I considered this deck (thought with Petal because I forgot about Moxen), which is notable because none of the other decks were on my radar.


I am not sure I would have played petal, because that lose to subtlety whereas mox does not.
Turns ous subtlety was not played, or only in a deck that did feature FoN.


My initial thought was UU tapland, Oracle, Force of Negation, Subtlety, and it was beating everything else that I could think of. I thought this was the deck to beat, so that's where I went. A fairly tight meta, but somehow I didn't think of most of it. I am pleasantly surprised, though, that mimicking the ceiling deck hasn't really been an option. I guess Leyline of Anticipation, Black Lotus, and Burning Inquiry are irreplaceable.

I thought taplands were not playable with strip mine roaming around. If I knew there would be only one, I would have gone storage land :)

And I think it likely that we will alternate lotus rounds and non lotus rounds ;)

[Reeplcheep]

Reeplcheep: Cavern of Souls, Thassa’s Oracle, Leyline of Sanctity, Razortide Bridge, comment: Interaction is overrated
This seemed like a strip mine/Thoughtseize week

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo, comment: Goblin Smash!
LL but I’m pretty sure this draws the ceiling deck OTP at least.

dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire , LL too fast

Silkster: Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze, comment: who needs negation anyway?
Discard in 2024? WW

Wrath of Pie: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck, comment:
Discard in 2024? WW

FTW: Subtlety, Force of Negation, Strip Mine, Chronomaton, comment: Subtle variations
I thought people might play this deck but discounted the chrono as a threat. LL

Asthereal: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs, comment: bit late, had a chess tourney
DD

4W 2D 6L = 14/36

[FTW]

FTW: Subtlety, Force of Negation, Strip Mine, Chronomaton, comment: Subtle variations

My other contender was Mox+Thassa. It felt like this round would be a lot of T1 deck 3-3s, so I tried this instead.

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo, comment: Goblin Smash!
Since you have to Shoal on your turn, Force of Negation works, so you can't 1-shot me. Then I play Chrono and grow Chrono. You can try to draw by saving Shoal vs Chrono. If save Force for Shoal X=12, then you can at most make an 8/1. I can grow Chrono to 9/9 before an unblocked 8/1 would kill me (e.g. take 10 hits from 1/1 goblin first, then Chrono can safely block). Then Chrono grows to 22/22 and wins.
WW 6-0

dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire , comment:
OTP If I play Chrono, I can't pay for Daze and lose to Thassa. So I never play Chrono so I can pay for Daze. Draw.
OTD I can't pay for Daze.
DL 1-4

Reeplcheep: Cavern of Souls, Thassa’s Oracle, Leyline of Sanctity, Razortide Bridge, comment: Interaction is overrated
I play T1 Chrono, Subtlety your Thassa (Subtlety counters Cavern + Thassa), then Strip Mine your Caverns so you can't play it again.
WW 6-0

Silkster: Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze, comment: who needs negation anyway?
OTP I play Chrono. If you Therapy, I Strip Mine and win, so you play Chrono. I Subtlety it and you Daze, so Chrono resolves. Then I wait with Strip Mine open. You play Sea. If I Strip Mine you now, you grow in response and win, so I just EOT grow and we both grow forever and draw. Or I can force the draw by not countering your Chrono (Sea stays in play), then just Strip Mining you when we have 2 1/1s.
OTD If you start with Chrono, I counter, you Daze and Chrono resolves. I play Chrono. Chronos draw again. If you T1 Therapy, I allow it, you take Chrono, then I Strip Mine you off Chrono.
DD 2-2

Wrath of Pie: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck, comment:
OTP T1 Chrono. I counter your first play and Strip Mine you off the 2nd. Win.
OTD you T1 Thoughtseize, I Force. Chrono can't race Mayor, so I have to Strip Mine you.
WD 4-1

Asthereal: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs, comment: bit late, had a chess tourney
OTP T1 Chrono. You play something, I Force it and Strip Mine you.
OTD is more complicated.
If you start with 3sphere, I have to Force it. I play Chrono. If you play Bridge, I Strip Mine you off Tongs and the 1/1 Chrono attacks through. If you play Tongs, I Strip Mine you off Bridge and 1/1 Chrono barely races your upkeep trigger (would not race if I had Force of Will!!)
If you start with Tongs to race, I Force it & play Chrono. Then you can resolve Bridge or 3sphere, but I Strip Mine you off the other and the 1/1 attacks through.
If you start with Bridge, I allow it and play Chrono. Then you play 3sphere or Tongs, I Force it, Strip Mine you, and my 1/1 attacks through Bridge.
WW 6-0

7 wins, 4 draws, 1 loss (25 points)

[FTW]

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo, comment: Goblin Smash!
How would that be legal? OTP you do have your token, whatever the other deck is doing you can pump it to 20/1 haste, and you should be able to draw?
Goblins too strong :/
I'll write 6-0 for now.
6


I think the deck is legal. Shoal can't be cast until there is a Goblin in play.

Chancellor triggers on the first upkeep. In response, ceiling deck can play Lotus + Burning Inquiry + Ravager. There is no legal target to Shoal yet. After the stack resolves, there is only a 1/1 haste Goblin vs 3/3 blocker.

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck, comment:

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo, comment: Goblin Smash! - WL
dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire , comment: - DL
Reeplcheep: Cavern of Souls, Thassa’s Oracle, Leyline of Sanctity, Razortide Bridge, comment: Interaction is overrated - LL
Silkster: Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze, comment: who needs negation anyway? - WL
FTW: Subtlety, Force of Negation, Strip Mine, Chronomaton, comment: Subtle variations - DL
Asthereal: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs, comment: bit late, had a chess tourney - DL

2w3d = 9 points

Sadly, I still outperformed actual politics.

[dte]

I think the deck is legal. Shoal can't be cast until there is a Goblin in play.

Chancellor triggers on the first upkeep. In response, ceiling deck can play Lotus + Burning Inquiry + Ravager. There is no legal target to Shoal yet. After the stack resolves, there is only a 1/1 haste Goblin vs 3/3 blocker.

Indeed, you're right!
I'll edit :)

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Round 2: Turn 1 decks"

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo, comment: Goblin Smash!
That's me on Goblins! :)

dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire , comment:
Goblin smash! then Thassa 3-3

Reeplcheep: Cavern of Souls, Thassa’s Oracle, Leyline of Sanctity, Razortide Bridge, comment: Interaction is overrated
Goblin smash! 6-0

Silkster: Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze, comment: who needs negation anyway?
Goblin smash! then discard 3-3

Wrath of Pie: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck, comment:
Goblin smash! then discard 3-3

FTW: Subtlety, Force of Negation, Strip Mine, Chronomaton, comment: Subtle variations
you use the force :( 0-6

Asthereal: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs, comment: bit late, had a chess tourney
Goblin smash! then sphere 3-3

18 goblin points!

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's results for round oh crap I forgot about this:

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Blazing Shoal, Blazing Shoal, Volcanic Salvo WL that's a big gobbo. :smile:
dte: Thassa's Oracle, Island , Daze, Mox sapphire WL
Reeplcheep: Cavern of Souls, Thassa’s Oracle, Leyline of Sanctity, Razortide Bridge DD damn that Leyline! :tongue:
Silkster: Underground Sea, Cabal Therapy, Chronomaton, Daze WL
Wrath of Pie: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck WD
FTW: Subtlety, Force of Negation, Strip Mine, Chronomaton LL
Asthereal: Mishra's Workshop, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs <-me, considering a rook sac

Total: 15 points?

[Reeplcheep]

Do we want to change the rules so that cards in all ceiling decks are banned? To prevent black lotus being played every odd round.

[dte]

Do we want to change the rules so that cards in all ceiling decks are banned? To prevent black lotus being played every odd round.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[FTW]

I think the format will naturally get powered down each round.

Lotus can't do too many shenanigans while losing to Thoughtseize + Mayor. All T0 and T1 decks are already banned.

[silkster]

Do we want to change the rules so that cards in all ceiling decks are banned? To prevent black lotus being played every odd round.

I'm not convinced that we'll have dominant lotuses every other round, and I also don't think it would necessarily be bad if we did. If we started repeating bigger parts of decks, then that would be a problem. I'd also rather not keep a banned list, preferring to either: 1) ban just Lotus, or 2) change from Vintage to Legacy. If we start getting repetition from they key role players like Chancellor of the Annex, Force of (blue), Thassa's Oracle, and Laboratory maniac, then maybe it would be better to just ban those specifically. Either way, I don't think the change will be necessary this week...

The next ceiling deck is: Bayou, Thoughtseize, Elvish Spirit Guide, Mayor of Avabruck.

For this week, these 4 cards are banned. I'll settle for whatever I've got Sunday/Monday and do my best to check for legalities, but don't depend on me because I completely missed how close the Goblin deck was this week.

Edit: FTW's post appeared while I was writing mine. I'll chalk this one up to "great minds think alike!"

[Wrath of Pie]

Strip Mine is way more annoying than Lotus.

[FTW]

Strip Mine is way more annoying than Lotus.

Strip Mine + Channex is "banned" though.

A lot of Tier 1 strategies from the last 2 rounds are autobanned by having to LL to the ceiling deck. And banning Strip Mine would have 0 impact on the format anyway.

Then next round we have to LL to whatever Goblin deck LL to Thoughtseize Mayor (or possibly something weaker than that), so the power level should keep declining.

So I like silkster's ruling for now. We'll see how the next round or 2 goes.

[dte]

Then next round we have to LL to whatever Goblin deck LL to Thoughtseize Mayor (or possibly something weaker than that), so the power level should keep declining.


I would bet that the power level will not really decline.
But I am quite curious to see whether I am wrong or right, and it should be fun in either case.

I would even bet that if someone were to submit something purposefully very weak (memnite, go!), power level would climb back in 5-6 rounds.

[silkster]

I do think a discussion is worth having, but I don't like having it during a round because it reveals what you think is going to happen that round. When I post the lists on Tuesday, I plan to list a few ban options to discuss while people do their results.

[silkster]

a27241e9533cc19e6ca8a6a74f951c955e96a748a082d7e6e8c9435b073ad7fa

Deck locked in. I'll check for illegal entries now quickly and send PMs if I see any.

[Asthereal]

Just realized my entry might be illegal. Give me a minute, I'll send in something new.
EDIT: Done.

Edit2: LOL...
False alarm, just use my first entry. I'm too tired for this crap. :rolleyes:

[silkster]

Just realized my entry might be illegal. Give me a minute, I'll send in something new.
EDIT: Done.

Edit2: LOL...
False alarm, just use my first entry. I'm too tired for this crap. :rolleyes:

I was wondering about that. One other player also submitted an updated version of a deck with a reference to the previous one not being legal, but I think it was legal. Okay, going back to the first entry.

[silkster]

Ceiling Season - Round 3

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Leyline of the Meek, comment: Meek goblins
dte: Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, Subtlety, Thassa's Oracle, comment:
Silkster: Plains, Strip Mine, March of Otherworldly Light, Chancellor of the Forge, comment: no Lotuses please
Asthereal: Savannah, Selesnya Sanctuary, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, comment: Too early for supercat?
Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Memnite, Force of Virtue, Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh, comment: Cheerios
FTW: Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Bitterblossom, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Subtlety is out the window
Wrath of Pie: Black Lotus, Strip Mine, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Desert, comment: Pithing Needle was too good
Asthereal: Inkmoth Nexus, Mountain, Blazing Shoal, Greater Gargadon, comment: attempt nr 2, should be legal this time

Plains, Strip Mine, March of Otherworldly Light, Chancellor of the Forge; no Lotuses please

Over the last 5 days, I've gone from thinking "no bans necessary" to "oh darn, we're going to have to ban things" to "nevermind, no bans necessary" to "hmm, maybe a ban would be good". I think at this point I would default to not banning anything, but I'm open to suggestions.

[silkster]

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Leyline of the Meek, comment: Meek goblins
LL
dte: Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, Subtlety, Thassa's Oracle, comment:
LL
Silkster: Plains, Strip Mine, March of Otherworldly Light, Chancellor of the Forge, comment: no Lotuses please
Asthereal: Savannah, Selesnya Sanctuary, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, comment: Too early for supercat?
WW
Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Memnite, Force of Virtue, Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh, comment: Cheerios
LL
FTW: Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Bitterblossom, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Subtlety is out the window
LL
Wrath of Pie: Black Lotus, Strip Mine, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Desert, comment: Pithing Needle was too good
LL

6 points. After noticing that 3/4 of Reeplcheep's previous deck was incredibly hard to stop (would have gone 30/36), I once again outthought myself and tried to beat it instead of just playing it, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with (near*) surgical precision. I've done this so many times and every time I swear that I've learned my lesson and I never do. smh

*would have been the perfect 0 before Asthereal's last minute switch. With season score dropping the bottom two, it should be the same anyway.

[dte]

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Leyline of the Meek, comment: Meek goblins
6-0
6

dte: Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, Subtlety, Thassa's Oracle, comment:
Me, not that subtle

Silkster: Plains, Strip Mine, March of Otherworldly Light, Chancellor of the Forge, comment: no Lotuses please
6-0
12

Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Memnite, Force of Virtue, Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh, comment: Cheerios
6-0
18

FTW: Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Bitterblossom, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Subtlety is out the window
6-0. Why is subtlety out?
24

Wrath of Pie: Black Lotus, Strip Mine, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Desert, comment: Pithing Needle was too good
6-0
30

Asthereal: Inkmoth Nexus, Mountain, Blazing Shoal, Greater Gargadon, comment: attempt nr 2, should be legal this time
3-3, whether it is infection or supercats.
33

Good score, but never got to use subtlety:/
3cb would have worked the same, 2 cb would have been ok.

[FTW]

FTW: Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Bitterblossom, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Subtlety is out the window

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Leyline of the Meek, comment: Meek goblins
Freebooter gets rid of Pyrokinesis, then Bitterblossom out-tokens you. WW 6-0

dte: Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, Subtlety, Thassa's Oracle, comment:
Good choice to beat Strip Mine & Chancellor. Very bold to have only Subtlety (pitching threat) as interaction. I guess T1 decks & discard were banned so T2 Thassa without interaction is fast enough.
You have the right answers. Strip Mine kills 1 land, you have a 2nd, Freebooter misses, Thassa wins. LL 0-6

Silkster: Plains, Strip Mine, March of Otherworldly Light, Chancellor of the Forge, comment: no Lotuses please
Freebooter takes March, the Bitterblossom out-tokens you. WW 6-0

Asthereal: Savannah, Selesnya Sanctuary, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, comment: Too early for supercat?
When you try to go off T2, Strip Mine kills Sanctuary in response to trigger. Bitterblossom wins. WW 6-0
Edit: If it's the other deck, Strip Mine kills Inkmoth, Freebooter exiles Shoal, and Bitterblossom races Gargadon.

Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Memnite, Force of Virtue, Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh, comment: Cheerios
Strip Mine pays for Chancellor tax on Lotus, then Bitterblossom + 1/2 flyer beats a 2/2 & 1/2. WW 6-0

Wrath of Pie: Black Lotus, Strip Mine, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Desert, comment: Pithing Needle was too good
Mirror. OTP Freebooter takes Elspeth and I win without even playing BB.
OTD you play T1 Elspeth. I play Bitterblossom off Lotus and save Mine to answer Desert (if I expose Mine to yours, Desert kills all my tokens). I think Elspeth still races Bitterblossom.
WL 3-3

27 points (9 wins, 3 loss)

[Asthereal]

Just to be clear: my entry is the Supercat. I know it's bad but I love the combo too much. :wink:

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Then next round we have to LL to whatever Goblin deck LL to Thoughtseize Mayor (or possibly something weaker than that)

Hey! :(

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Round 3: Turn 2"

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Leyline of the Meek, comment: Meek goblins
That's me still on Goblins! :)

dte: Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, Subtlety, Thassa's Oracle, comment:
Thassa :( 0-6

Silkster: Plains, Strip Mine, March of Otherworldly Light, Chancellor of the Forge, comment: no Lotuses please
Goblins smash! 6-0

Asthereal: Savannah, Selesnya Sanctuary, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, comment: Too early for supercat?
Goblins smash! 6-0

Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Memnite, Force of Virtue, Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh, comment: Cheerios
Goblins smash! 6-0

FTW: Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Bitterblossom, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Subtlety is out the window
Bitterblossom :( 0-6

Wrath of Pie: Black Lotus, Strip Mine, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Desert, comment: Pithing Needle was too good
Goblins smash! 6-0

24 goblin points!!!

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Black Lotus, Strip Mine, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Desert, comment: Pithing Needle was too good

GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Leyline of the Meek, comment: Meek goblins - LL
dte: Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, Subtlety, Thassa's Oracle, comment: - LL - Should have just played two Strip Mines.
Silkster: Plains, Strip Mine, March of Otherworldly Light, Chancellor of the Forge, comment: no Lotuses please - WW
Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Memnite, Force of Virtue, Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh, comment: Cheerios - WW
FTW: Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Bitterblossom, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Subtlety is out the window - WL
Asthereal: Savannah, Selesnya Sanctuary, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, comment: Too early for supercat? - WW - Supercats hate Strip Mine.

7w = 21 points

I got to play Elspeth in a real round, so that was good.

[Reeplcheep]

Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Memnite, Force of Virtue, Rograkh, Son of Rohgahh, comment: Cheerios
I thought ignoring chancellor/strip mine could excuse a terrible deck.

Wrath of Pie: Black Lotus, Strip Mine, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Desert, comment: Pithing Needle was too good LL
GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Leyline of the Meek, comment: Meek goblins - I sacrificed power for evasion LL
dte: Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, Subtlety, Thassa's Oracle, comment: Hey, a good deck, that’s unfair! - LL
Silkster: Plains, Strip Mine, March of Otherworldly Light, Chancellor of the Forge, comment: no Lotuses please - 1/2 Beats 1/1 WW
FTW: Strip Mine, Black Lotus, Bitterblossom, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Subtlety is out the window - LL
Asthereal: Savannah, Selesnya Sanctuary, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond, comment: Too early for supercat? - chancellor takes fast bond and win the race. WW

4W 0D 8L =12 points

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's scores confirmed. I indeed race dte OTP and the rest just screws up my Supercat plan.
I guess it indeed was too early still for the Supercat. No raegrets tho. :tongue:

Does that mean the Supercat becomes the next ceiling deck? Plz? :laugh:

[FTW]

Does that mean the Supercat becomes the next ceiling deck? Plz? :laugh:

Banned list =
Strip Mine
Chancellor of the Annex
Force of Will
Thoughtseize
Trinisphere
...

This should be interesting.

[dte]

Banned list =
Strip Mine
Chancellor of the Annex
Force of Will
Thoughtseize
Trinisphere
...

This should be interesting.

I see only strip mine and FoW (assuming a pitch) as banned.
The others would be playable.

[Wrath of Pie]

Banned list =
Strip Mine
Chancellor of the Annex
Force of Will
Thoughtseize
Trinisphere
...

This should be interesting.

Trinisphere is technically still playable with storage lands.

[FTW]

True, I suppose the others are technically playable... but not playable as normally intended. There has to be a self-induced handicap. Either way, it means a powering down of the format and no need for forced bans.

[silkster]

My apologies to Asthereal (and also everyone else) for my mixup. I just wanted to make my posts and not dwell on how close I was to an actual winning deck. I was so sure this time that people would just jam Thassa's Oracle, and ironically I still lost to the deck that I was targeting.

There has been no discussion of a banlist independent from the ceiling deck. I had thought that it would be my goblin+March deck, and I came to this thread ready to defend myself from playful accusations that I intentionally submitted a terrible deck just to make the ceiling lower. In any case, things are moving, decks are changing, so there's probably no need for a ban-list at the moment. I think we might as well see where this goes, and if people decide that they're sick of Lotus, Strip Mine, Oracle (and its maniacal replacement), then we can do this season over again either in Legacy or with a short perma-banlist.

The ceiling deck for the next round is: Savannah, Selesnya Sanctuary, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond.
(Which means that these 4 cards are banned next round.)

There haven't been as many illegal decks as I expected. I was using the back-build season as a comparison where decks were legal based on winning against something, but those decks were so bad and used so many overly complicated cards. I'll confirm my deck some time on Sunday or Monday and then check legality of submitted decks. Feel free to submit and resubmit whenever.

[silkster]

If you don't get a pm in the next five minutes or so, then your deck looks legal to me.

887148ec7b48cc050a4a69809d75b49f36da2258314d818f336fc0eedbcfb0d2

[silkster]

It looks like all the submissions are in. One deck that I thought was illegal got fixed in a way that I'm happy about. It's a close calculation, so hopefully I didn't mess it up.

I have a unique Tuesday commitment, but I should only be 10 or 20 minutes delayed.

[silkster]

Ceiling Season - Round 4: Savannah, Selesneya Sanctuary, Steppe Lynx, Fastbond

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower
dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn. Please do not play TOracle.
Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:
Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions
GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong

[dte]

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower
0-6, TO

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn. Please do not play TOracle.
Me, chosing the wrong deck this week ;)

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
0-6, karakas.

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:
6-0
6

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions
0-6, I did not plan for the mirror
6

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2
6-0
12

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong
0-6, TO. I hesitated with this deck with Teferi's Isle instead of cove. Should have picked it :)

12. Recursive T1 emrakul as next ceiling deck?

[Reeplcheep]

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower
Just copying Dre’s homework and then tweaking it to beat the mirror.

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn. Please do not play TOracle.
Played thoracle WW

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
T3 thoracle WW

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:
Snared LL

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions
Hushed. LL

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2
Thoracle WW

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong[
I thought I would be able to ww this one but I didn’t forsee commandeer. DD

6W 2D 4L for 20/36. Better than my previous performances at least.

[silkster]

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower
WW - Like dte, I was specifically worried about Thassa's Oracle and played around it.

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn. Please do not play TOracle.
WW - In my best seasons, our decks overlapped quite a few times, so I take this as a good sign. I was worried about 3 specific cards: Oracle, Chancellor of the Annex, and Force of Negation. I couldn't see how to play around two of them with a single card, but Oracle seemed most important. Here the 1/2 slowly wins the day while we're both too shy to stand up in front of the class.

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
LL - I was kicking myself for a while for not playing It That Betrays instead in order to play around Karakas. It wasn't until the next morning that I realized that Oko can just elk the eldrazi either way. Then I realized that S&T doesn't let you play Oko, but it does let you play Detention Sphere. If I'm going to lose to two different cards, it's a good thing they're in the same deck! Like this prisoner's hat problem (https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/wcmtc/wp-content/uploads/sites/1040/2022/10/MathTeacherCircleHatProblemsWithSolutions.pdf).

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:
WW - I had spell Snare in one of my lists too.

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions
Last week I hyperfocused on beating what I thought would be the bogeyman of the round, and then just lost to the variety. Which is a good thing for the format!

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2
WW - Tentacle smash. I figured Plateau to Sacred Foundry was a good switch to gain legality and probably not going to change anything else. If you had been absent today, I was considering just making the switch for you. It's not the best precedent, but it's such a clean change in this specific case.

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong
DD - For a moment I was excited that Show and Tell does not care at all about being Commandeered. Then I realized that you just took the Lotus and could then use it to cast Oracle. Then I realized that you need to spend the Oracle and Lotus does not help you cast Saprazzan Cove.
LL - Wrong again! I can beat the Oracle, but Subtlety eventually comes down and attacks me.

24 points.

Black Lotus is definitely a bigger player than I thought it would be before the season started, but I'm enjoying the way that it's constrained. Oracle is also a bigger player than I'd expected. The diversity is still looking pretty good and we haven't gone in any loops. We could ban some cards, but I'd rather play this out and then make a new season with a short banlist. I also think that a specific banlist is probably better than just going down to Legacy because we get such gems as Supercat!

For a moment this week I got lost in the weeds thinking that slow lands into Oracle and slow lands in general could be very popular, and I came up with Dryad Arbor, Lotus, Lotus, Gaea's Liege to disrupt lands but not Fastbond. But at that point I might as well have played Gray Ogre and Stone rain off of Lotuses.

[Reeplcheep]

If DTE ends up as the ceiling deck, I would like clarification if the random shuffle ends up worse for the emrakul owner or the discard owner.

[dte]

If DTE ends up as the ceiling deck, I would like clarification if the random shuffle ends up worse for the emrakul owner or the discard owner.

Emrakul owner is the shuffle effect owner, worse for her/him.

@Silk: I think you LL vs FTW: you can't S&T, FTW can chose between casting TO with subtlety up, or just casting subtlety.

[Reeplcheep]

Emrakul owner is the shuffle effect owner, worse for her/him.

@Silk: I think you LL vs FTW: you can't S&T, FTW can chose between casting TO with subtlety up, or just casting subtlety.

Ok.

Can’t he just put in hushbringer like against me?

[silkster]

Ok.

Can’t he just put in hushbringer like against me?

I can, but then I'll lose later to the Subtlety, I think.

This is actually a question about "full information" that I tried asking many many seasons ago and I don't think I really got an answer. I think that the choices for S&T are made simultaneously, so how does one choose if there's no correct choice? If Emrakul loses to Oracle, Oracle loses to Hushbringer, Hushbringer loses to Subtlety, Subtlety loses to Emrakul, then there's no right choice. But Oracle still beats Hushbringer by casting Subtlety 6 turns later. Also, I think the answer to this question is that the NAP gets to know what the AP chooses for the purposes of 4CB.

[FTW]

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong

FoN was too strong, so I took Commandeer as a panic-button against noncreatures missed by Subtlety.
Teferi's Isle is too fast (Subtlety stalls Supercat one turn, making T3 Thoracle race on the play). It had to be turn 4 or turn 3 without disruption.

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle
Worst case I can Commandeer your Mox to draw.
If you tap out for T4 Oracle, I Subtlety it (stall one turn), then cast my Oracle while you're tapped out. So you can't ever cast Oracle. I charge to 100 counters.
Eventually I could EOT cast Subtlety, then hold up Commandeer mana while attacking with a 3/3 flyer. That wouldn't do me any good. Commandeer can't stop your Thassa or stop Angel's Grace on my Thassa, and I'd give up the Subtlety advantage. So I can't play anything either. DD 2-2

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad
If you play Show and Tell, Thoracle wins. If you don't, I win on turn 4. WW 6-0

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns
You play T3 Oko, I let it resolve, T4 Thassa wins. WW 6-0

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance
You've got Spell Snare for Thassa AND Sunlance for Lab Man! Nice deck.
If I don't cast Thassa into Spell Snare, you EOT grow Chrono. You can't Sunlance Subtlety (tapping out leaves you open to Thassa), but by the time I play Subtlety, Chrono is big enough to race.
LL 0-6

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Worst case I can Commandeer Lotus to draw, but I don't.
If you use Lotus for Show and Tell, I let it resolve. If you put in Emrakul, Thassa's trigger wins. If you put in Hushbringer, Thassa's trigger is countered, then I play a 3/3 flyer and race you.
If you use Lotus for Hushbringer instead, I counter with Subtlety and T4 Thassa wins.
If you don't use Lotus, T4 Thassa wins.
WW 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless
Subtlety stalls Lackey one turn. Then T4 Thassa wins before Lackey + Morophon can race. WW 6-0

26 points (8 wins, 2 draws, 2 loss)

[FTW]

I can, but then I'll lose later to the Subtlety, I think.

This is actually a question about "full information" that I tried asking many many seasons ago and I don't think I really got an answer. I think that the choices for S&T are made simultaneously, so how does one choose if there's no correct choice? If Emrakul loses to Oracle, Oracle loses to Hushbringer, Hushbringer loses to Subtlety, Subtlety loses to Emrakul, then there's no right choice. But Oracle still beats Hushbringer by casting Subtlety 6 turns later. Also, I think the answer to this question is that the NAP gets to know what the AP chooses for the purposes of 4CB.

For Show and Tell, NAP is normally supposed to select without knowing what AP selected. But the issue of information is moot. I choose Oracle either way.

If you reveal Emrakul -> Oracle trigger wins
If you reveal Hushbringer -> Oracle trigger is countered, then I cast Subtlety later and race.

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower - WW - I would like to thank Spell Snare for doing its job.
dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn. Please do not play TOracle. - LL - I was not prepared for Show and Tell.
Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment: - LL
Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions - LL
GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2 - DD
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong - WW - You made me work for the victory over Oracle, but I did it.

4w2d = 14 points

I beat Thassa's Oracle and lost to everything else expect Goblin Lackey for some reason. (I think we're going to be losing to Goblins, so that's nice at least.)

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Round 4: Turn 4?"

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower
Thassa :( 0-6

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn.
Emrakul :( 0-6

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
Oko :( 0-6

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:
Sunlance 2-2

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions
Emrakul :( 0-6

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2
That's me still on Goblins :(

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong[/QUOTE]
Thassa :( 0-6

2 goblin points

[Wrath of Pie]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Round 4: Turn 4?"

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower
Thassa :( 0-6

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn.
Emrakul :( 0-6

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
Oko :( 0-6

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:
Sunlance 2-2

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions
Emrakul :( 0-6

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2
That's me still on Goblins :(

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong
Thassa :( 0-6

2 goblin points

You should be happy, now everyone has to be smashed by Goblins.

[silkster]

You should be happy, now everyone has to be smashed by Goblins.

Though it does mean that two goblins are banned this round.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Though it does mean that two goblins are banned this round.

How do coin flips work?

[dte]

How do coin flips work?

Owner gets the worst possible outcome.

[FTW]

Owner gets the worst possible outcome.

Hmm this raises some interesting questions:
- Owner or Controller?
- Lose the flip, or worst outcome?

This came up before with Mana Clash

If the deck is designed so you want the flips to lose, does that mean the flips win instead? Or does the owner/controller lose the flip either way?

If a spell or permanent you control creates a copy for the opponent, do you still own the copy? So opponent's flips would be whichever you don't want them to get?

[dte]

Hmm this raises some interesting questions:
- Owner or Controller?
- Lose the flip, or worst outcome?

This came up before with Mana Clash

If the deck is designed so you want the flips to lose, does that mean the flips win instead? Or does the owner/controller lose the flip either way?

If a spell or permanent you control creates a copy for the opponent, do you still own the copy? So opponent's flips would be whichever you don't want them to get?

As I understand it, if there is randomness brought by a card you run, and as a result some paths, however unlikely, leads you to lose (the game, not flip), then you lose. If you can't lose but can draw, then you draw.

[Asthereal]

Hmm this raises some interesting questions:
- Owner or Controller?
- Lose the flip, or worst outcome?

This came up before with Mana Clash

If the deck is designed so you want the flips to lose, does that mean the flips win instead? Or does the owner/controller lose the flip either way?

If a spell or permanent you control creates a copy for the opponent, do you still own the copy? So opponent's flips would be whichever you don't want them to get?
I think it's the controller. The player who would count as "you" in the text.

But this is a tad fluid in 4CB, as sometimes gaining the thing from the coin flip is actually to your disadvantage. Say you do a coin flip, and if it's heads you get a 2/2 bear. Normally you'd get tails and get nothing, but if your opponent has an Oath of Druids and a fatty in his library, and he needs you to have that bear in order to activate Oath, you actually do get the bear. In this case casting or activating the effect would be suboptimal play, so you don't actually play the effect that would get you a bear if you got heads in the coin toss, but the principle stands.

[silkster]

How do coin flips work?

The way I like to think about it is this: any time an effect player 1 controls causes a random result, player 2 gets to choose the outcome of those results.

If I cast Mana Clash or activate Goblin Bangchuckers, you choose every single result. If I Burning Inquiry, you choose which 3 cards you discard (which was relevant once). When I shuffle my library, you choose the order.

What gets a little complicated is if the controller and owner are different players. We had some debate here about a Donated Mana Crypt. I think I'd like to say (for simplicity) that all random results are chosen by the player who did not bring the card into the game. So in this case, donating a crypt does not kill the other player, even over infinite turns, despite it being a probability 0 event.

[FTW]

What gets a little complicated is if the controller and owner are different players. We had some debate here about a Donated Mana Crypt. I think I'd like to say (for simplicity) that all random results are chosen by the player who did not bring the card into the game. So in this case, donating a crypt does not kill the other player, even over infinite turns, despite it being a probability 0 event.

Is this the ruling we're going with for this season? Your season, your choice.

In other seasons, many players used Donate+Mana Crypt as a winning deck. I also attempted Sudden Substitution+Mana Clash before. If things like Donate+Crypt don't work this season, it'd be helpful to make that a clear rule before anyone submits. Especially since there are a lot of red coin-flip cards, some with "Goblin" in the name.

[silkster]

Yes, I'm going with that: The player who did not bring the card chooses all outcomes from random events generated by that card.

Ceiling deck for round 5: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless

Note: I can't actually tell when MH3 becomes constructed legal, but scryfall is including them in searches for vintage legal cards, so I'm going to declare that MH3 is now legal in our game. This goes against previously stated rules, but I think it makes sense and won't be an unpopular decision.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Yes, I'm going with that: The player who did not bring the card chooses all outcomes from random events generated by that card.

:(

RIP Sandstone Needle, Krark, the Thumbless, Intervention Pact, Grapeshot

[Asthereal]

Note: I can't actually tell when MH3 becomes constructed legal, but scryfall is including them in searches for vintage legal cards, so I'm going to declare that MH3 is now legal in our game. This goes against previously stated rules, but I think it makes sense and won't be an unpopular decision.

Yeah they're kinda murky about that sometimes.
I'm playing a MH3 prerelease tomorrow, so allowing it from this round onwards makes sense.

[silkster]

0ff1d85f9bde7b0db3a32df73338d16312b3b29fa30910eb223c0fef2a22b183

Checking entry legalities momentarily. No news will be good news.

[silkster]

Ceiling Season - Round 5 - Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Warren Instigator, Goblin Settler, Lightning Crafter, comment: Goblin Blast!
dte: Black lotus , Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Elixir of Immortality, comment: 25!
FTW: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: Broken record with subtle changes
Reeplcheep: Black Lotus, Lab Maniac, Simian Spirit Guide, Pyroblast, comment: Dies to doom blade
Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Vexing Bauble, comment:
Silkster: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Black Lotus, Chaoslace, comment: fine line between stupid and genius
Asthereal: Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter, comment:

[silkster]

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Warren Instigator, Goblin Settler, Lightning Crafter, comment: Goblin Blast!
WW

dte: Black lotus , Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Elixir of Immortality, comment: 25!
WL

FTW: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: Broken record with subtle changes
LL - This is the one round that got away from me. Chaoslace does nothing here.

Reeplcheep: Black Lotus, Lab Maniac, Simian Spirit Guide, Pyroblast, comment: Dies to doom blade
WL - I was on this exact list for most of the week. I even got as far as typing it all in to the entry form.

Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Vexing Bauble, comment:
WL

Silkster: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Black Lotus, Chaoslace, comment: fine line between stupid and genius
It would seem that I fell on the side of stupid.

Asthereal: Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter, comment:
WW

7W, 5L.

I was worried about 3 cards: Force of Negation, Pyroblast, and Strafe. By moving Pyroblast -> Chaoslace, I was protected against Strafe, but no longer against Force of Negation. Adding the second Lotus protected against that, and I thought I was all good. I even figured I was protected against Subtlety too because I figured that any list running FoN+Subtlety is going to have a clock slower than turn 2. I'm still surprised that Strafe didn't show up.

[dte]

Exactly the same as Silkster for me, except I LL against reeplcheep.

6W6L, 18.

I thought my deck was more original:/

[FTW]

FTW: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: Broken record with subtle changes

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Warren Instigator, Goblin Settler, Lightning Crafter
T1 Lab Man, Subtlety your creature. WW 6-0

dte: Black lotus , Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Elixir of Immortality
T1 Lab Man, Subtlety yours to stall. WW 6-0

Reeplcheep: Black Lotus, Lab Maniac, Simian Spirit Guide, Pyroblast
OTP T1 Lab Man, you Pyroblast, and I Subtlety yours to draw.
OTD you play Lab Man, I Subtlety, and you Pyroblast to protect and win first.
DL 1-4

Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Vexing Bauble
OTP Lab Man and win.
OTD T1 Bauble stops 3 of my cards and Commandeering it doesn't help.
WL 3-3

Silkster: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Black Lotus, Chaoslace
T1 Lab Man, Subtlety yours to stall. WW 6-0

Asthereal: Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter
T1 Lab Man WW 6-0

28 points (9 wins, 1 draw, 2 loss)

Strafe was on my shortlist but I thought it was too narrow. I saw this round going 2 ways: "loses to Sunlance" or "raced by Lackey + disrupton that doesn't stop Lackey". Strafe is great vs "loses to Sunlance" and terrible otherwise, so I avoided it. I also had a narrow meta deck that scores a perfect sweep here, but it's terrible against so many things, and I didn't expect this much Lotus + Lab Man.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

Ceiling Deck results for Round "Goblins!"

Goblin smash!
Goblin smash!
Goblin smash!
Goblin smash!
Goblin smash!
Goblin smash!
Goblin smash!

Sweep! Goblins win :) :)

GoblinSmashmaster: 9 goblin points :(

[Asthereal]

I made the ceiling deck again. 0-6 in all, by the looks of things.
Maybe I shouldn't enter at all if I can only spend 5 minutes on my deck. :tongue:

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Vexing Bauble, comment:

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Warren Instigator, Goblin Settler, Lightning Crafter, comment: Goblin Blast! - WL
dte: Black lotus , Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Elixir of Immortality, comment: 25! - WL - 25! is great, but 25 not so much.
FTW: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: Broken record with subtle changes - WL
Reeplcheep: Black Lotus, Lab Maniac, Simian Spirit Guide, Pyroblast, comment: Dies to doom blade - WL
Silkster: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Black Lotus, Chaoslace, comment: fine line between stupid and genius - WL
Asthereal: Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter, comment: - WW - Well, you made Vexing Bauble a blank.

7w = 21 points

Vexing Bauble was good.

[FTW]

I made the ceiling deck again. 0-6 in all, by the looks of things.
Maybe I shouldn't enter at all if I can only spend 5 minutes on my deck. :tongue:

Keep playing! At worst it sets the ceiling deck to a lower power level that shakes up the whole format and makes the next round more interesting. You're still having a fun impact on the game even if you can only spare 5 mins.

[Asthereal]

Keep playing! At worst it sets the ceiling deck to a lower power level that shakes up the whole format and makes the next round more interesting. You're still having a fun impact on the game even if you can only spare 5 mins.

That's true. The power level gets quite a swing next round.

[Wrath of Pie]

That's true. The power level gets quite a swing next round.
Storage lands might actually be playable for once.

[Reeplcheep]

Reeplcheep: Black Lotus, Lab Maniac, Simian Spirit Guide, Pyroblast, comment: Dies to doom blade
FON + subtlety seemed like the obvious best interaction, so I played this. Luckily, no one played strafe instead.

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Warren Instigator, Goblin Settler, Lightning Crafter, comment: Goblin Blast!
You ping on T3 so I’m too fast. WW 6-0

dte: Black lotus , Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Elixir of Immortality, comment: 25!
Too slow to rebuild. WW 6-0

FTW: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: Broken record with subtle changes
My interaction is slightly better. WD 4-1

Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Vexing Bauble, comment:
Bauble stops lotus, mage names blast. WL 3-3

Silkster: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Black Lotus, Chaoslace, comment: fine line between stupid and genius
Red maniac too strong. WL 3-3

Asthereal: Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter, comment:
Luckily I’m too fast for hope ender. WW 6-0

9W 1D 2L for 28/36.

[silkster]

Sorry for the delay in the formal announcement, though it did sound like everyone was already on the same page.

Next ceiling deck: Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter.

[silkster]

f6ce3041fbec6dc3a00581b9b4339a29122fdbd3972fab5467672c02e9240473

Coming in late. Checking now.

[Asthereal]

Coming in late. Checking now.
For me it's early. :wink:

Replied to your PM. I think I'm good but maybe I missed something.

[silkster]

Round 6 - Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter

GoblinSmashmaster: Mercardian Bazaar, Chancellor of the Forge, Fury, Squee, the Immortal, comment: Furious goblins!
dte: Laboratory maniac, Chancellor of the annex , Mana crypt , archway commons, comment: Cryptic labman
Asthereal: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith, Liliana of the Veil, comment:
Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Force of Negation, comment:
Silkster: Radiant Fountain, Hex Parasite, Force of Will, Snapback, comment: just barely legal
Ftw: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Coin flip

[silkster]

GoblinSmashmaster: Mercardian Bazaar, Chancellor of the Forge, Fury, Squee, the Immortal, comment: Furious goblins!
LL - Between Bazaar, the token, and Fury, I can stop two out of three.

dte: Laboratory maniac, Chancellor of the annex , Mana crypt , archway commons, comment: Cryptic labman
DD - Wow, this is cool. I tried to come up with a thing that loses to Wasteland like this, but the best I found was Pact of Negation + Angel's Grace. I'm also kicking myself here because I should have played City of Traitors which would have let me win this.

Asthereal: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith, Liliana of the Veil, comment:
LL - I missed the line where the ceiling deck discards Coatl, plays and upticks Dovin, eats one attack from Factory, and then wastes the Factory. Tendo, Ice Bridge over Fountain would have snatched a draw here.

Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Force of Negation, comment:
WW - Finally a deck that I was prepared for!

Silkster: Radiant Fountain, Hex Parasite, Force of Will, Snapback, comment: just barely legal
I believe that I lose against the ceiling deck while it's at 1 life, with the Dovin gaining 1 and the Force of Will costing 1 both being relevant.

Ftw: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Coin flip
DD - You can't catch the Parasite. Forcing Lotus or Persecute is the same: you land Freebooter either way. I can't block you, but you can't race.

[dte]

GoblinSmashmaster: Mercardian Bazaar, Chancellor of the Forge, Fury, Squee, the Immortal, comment: Furious goblins!
6-0, I am a bit faster
6

dte: Laboratory maniac, Chancellor of the annex , Mana crypt , archway commons, comment: Cryptic labman
Me, apparently determined to never turn creatures sideways this season

Asthereal: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith, Liliana of the Veil, comment:
6-0, channex counter lili otd
12

Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Force of Negation, comment:
6-0, I am a turn faster
18

Silkster: Radiant Fountain, Hex Parasite, Force of Will, Snapback, comment: just barely legal
2-2, we stare
20

Ftw: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Coin flip
3-3, devious.
23

[FTW]

Ftw: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Coin flip

Tempted to submit Thassa+FoN again but wanted to play something different for once. Let's see how it pans out.

GoblinSmashmaster: Mercardian Bazaar, Chancellor of the Forge, Fury, Squee, the Immortal
T1 Persecute Red. Your 1/1 goblin can't attack into my 1/2, so I'd race you on the play, except you can recast Squee from graveyard.
LL 0-6

dte: Laboratory maniac, Chancellor of the annex , Mana crypt , archway commons
Nice deck! I considered a similar T2 Lab Man but did not expect Chancellor, which stops Persecute.
OTP Freebooter exiles Mana Crypt. OTD you play Crypt first and Channex stops me from discarding Lab Man.
WL 3-3

Asthereal: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith, Liliana of the Veil
Freebooter exiles Liliana, but Maze forever stops my 1/2 while Factory races.
LL 0-6

Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Force of Negation, comment:
You either Force Lotus or Persecute. Either way, you're down to 2 cards. But Freebooter misses Thassa and you win.
LL 0-6

Silkster: Radiant Fountain, Hex Parasite, Force of Will, Snapback, comment: just barely legal
One way or another Force+Snapback trade with my 1st Lotus + Persecute, but Hex Parasite resolves. It would race me thanks to Radiant Fountain, so I stay back to block.
DD 2-2

5 points (1 win, 2 draw, 7 loss)
Edit: Thassa + FoN was the smarter play

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Force of Negation, comment:

GoblinSmashmaster: Mercardian Bazaar, Chancellor of the Forge, Fury, Squee, the Immortal, comment: Furious goblins! - WW
dte: Laboratory maniac, Chancellor of the annex , Mana crypt , archway commons, comment: Cryptic labman - LL
Asthereal: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith, Liliana of the Veil, comment: - WW
Silkster: Radiant Fountain, Hex Parasite, Force of Will, Snapback, comment: just barely legal - LL
Ftw: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Coin flip - WW

6w = 18 points

I can only hope to match dte's brilliance one day.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Round 6: Turn 4?"

GoblinSmashmaster: Mercardian Bazaar, Chancellor of the Forge, Fury, Squee, the Immortal, comment: Furious goblins!
That's me still on Goblins!

dte: Laboratory maniac, Chancellor of the annex , Mana crypt , archway commons, comment: Cryptic labman
Thassa :( 0-6

Asthereal: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith, Liliana of the Veil, comment:
Goblin stare 2-2

Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Force of Negation, comment:
Thassa :( 0-6

Silkster: Radiant Fountain, Hex Parasite, Force of Will, Snapback, comment: just barely legal
Goblin smash! 6-0

Ftw: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter, comment: Coin flip[/QUOTE]
Goblin smash! 6-0

14 goblin points!

[Asthereal]

EDIT: Never mind, I missed something very relevant.

My results:

GoblinSmashmaster: Mercardian Bazaar, Chancellor of the Forge, Fury, Squee, the Immortal DD
dte: Laboratory maniac, Chancellor of the annex , Mana crypt , archway commons LL (this one is very clever)
Asthereal: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Mishra's Factory, Maze of Ith, Liliana of the Veil <-me
Wrath of Pie: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Force of Negation LL (I had this deck in mind, but somehow forgot that the CD can just EOT cast Coatl without countering anything and then Wasteland the Cove ftw)
Silkster: Radiant Fountain, Hex Parasite, Force of Will, Snapback WW
Ftw: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter WW

Total: 14 points

[silkster]

Next Ceiling Deck: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter

A reminder (in part to myself): Black Lotus, Persecute, and Kitesail Freebooter are banned this round.

As general commentary, I think not having a banlist is working out fine for this season. If people are up for it, I'd do another 9-round season of the same thing with a banlist of maybe 10-20 cards.

[silkster]

a67192611123955fd35acab957d22bef9ba5ae3fa3cbd281ba072c9308742da5

Checking now. I'm guessing it'll be straightforward this week.

[Asthereal]

[B]As general commentary, I think not having a banlist is working out fine for this season. If people are up for it, I'd do another 9-round season of the same thing with a banlist of maybe 10-20 cards.

It's a fun season so far for sure. And despite the power level dropping, we still see some powerful cards this deep in. Perhaps we can go on for longer than 9 rounds.

PS. Just sent in something real quick. Probably terrible but I was away for several days.

[silkster]

Round 7: Black Lotus, Black Lotus, Persecute, Kitesail Freebooter

GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Pyrokinesis, Goblin Settler, comment: Goblin smash!
FTW: Razortide Bridge, Cavern of Souls, Thassa's Oracle, Meddling Mage, comment: Not subtle this time
dte: Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, comment:
Silkster: Mistvault Bridge, Cavern of Souls, Thassa's Oracle, Strip Mine, comment: feeling low on innovation
Wrath of Pie: Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Cavern of Souls, Razortide Bridge, comment: Chronomaton is too good
Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Mental Misstep, Wasteland, Dryad Arbor, comment: Hasty entry after a festival :)
Reeplcheep: Duress, Swamp, Burglar Rat, Strip Mine, comment: Last minute

PS: weigh in if you would like to ban Oracle, Lab Man, and Jace WoM for the last two rounds.

[silkster]

It's a fun season so far for sure. And despite the power level dropping, we still see some powerful cards this deep in. Perhaps we can go on for longer than 9 rounds.

I'm glad you're enjoying it, even if you don't have much time to go deep! I do think we're now swirling around the Oracle-LabMan circle, though there has definitely been some incredible innovation around it.

My plan would be to finish this after 9 rounds, then either switch it up with an FTW season, or jump into Ceiling Season Redux: Now With a Banlist (or possibly banathon, though I think I prefer a static banlist).

Or we might want to ban Oracle, LabMan, Jace, WoM for the last two rounds.

GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Pyrokinesis, Goblin Settler, comment: Goblin smash!
WW

FTW: Razortide Bridge, Cavern of Souls, Thassa's Oracle, Meddling Mage, comment: Not subtle this time
WL

dte: Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, comment:
WL

Silkster: Mistvault Bridge, Cavern of Souls, Thassa's Oracle, Strip Mine, comment: feeling low on innovation
Turn 2 Oracle seemed to be the way to go.

Wrath of Pie: Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Cavern of Souls, Razortide Bridge, comment: Chronomaton is too good
WL

Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Mental Misstep, Wasteland, Dryad Arbor, comment: Hasty entry after a festival :)
WW - My first deck was CotA + Strip Mine. It seemed so ridiculously good. Then I realized that it lost to good old indestructible land + cavern.

Reeplcheep: Duress, Swamp, Burglar Rat, Strip Mine, comment: Last minute
WW

Even in hindsight I don't think I could have done much better. There are 1-mana spells that answer the indestructible lands, but then your land is vulnerable to Strip Mine. There are answers to Oracle's trigger, but they don't do well against the 1/3 that's left behind.

[Asthereal]

I'm glad you're enjoying it, even if you don't have much time to go deep! I do think we're now swirling around the Oracle-NotOracle circle, though there has definitely been some incredible innovation around it.

My plan would be to finish this after 9 rounds, then either switch it up with an FTW season, or jump into Ceiling Season Redux: Now With a Banlist (or possibly banathon, though I think I prefer a static banlist).

Whelp, yup we need to get rid of that bloody Thassa's Oracle for sure. This is getting stupid.
I didn't have time to figure out how to play it and sent something that would surely be legal, and that means I lose to all Oracles.

[Wrath of Pie]

Turns out the format is really about figuring out how to legally play Thassa's Oracle or Laboratory Maniac, with the occasional Strip Mine appearance.

[FTW]

FTW: Razortide Bridge, Cavern of Souls, Thassa's Oracle, Meddling Mage, comment: Not subtle this time

It was hard to find a deck that beats 2-mana creature ETB trigger that doesn't also beat Kitesail Freebooter. Chancellor+Strip Mine was the biggest contender, but this beats that. Didn't want to play it but couldn't come up with anything that beat it, or even a relevant 4th card to win on the draw. Should have played Chancellor to WW vs dte's version.

GoblinSmashmaster: Mountain, Goblin Lackey, Pyrokinesis, Goblin Settler
T2 Thassa WW 6-0

dte: Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Saprazzan Skerry, Saprazzan Skerry, comment:
OTP I play T2 Meddling Mage naming Thassa, then beat down with Grizzly Bears.
OTD you Thassa me. WL 3-3

Silkster: Mistvault Bridge, Cavern of Souls, Thassa's Oracle, Strip Mine
OTP I play T2 Meddling Mage naming Thassa, then beat down with Grizzly Bears.
OTD you Thassa me. WL 3-3

Wrath of Pie: Thassa's Oracle, Thassa's Oracle, Cavern of Souls, Razortide Bridge, comment: Chronomaton is too good
OTP I play T2 Meddling Mage naming Thassa, then beat down with Grizzly Bears.
OTD you Thassa me. WL 3-3

Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Mental Misstep, Wasteland, Dryad Arbor, comment: Hasty entry after a festival :)
T2 Thassa WW 6-0

Reeplcheep: Duress, Swamp, Burglar Rat, Strip Mine, comment: Last minute
Discard Meddling Mage to the rat, T2 Thassa WW 6-0

27 points (9 wins, 3 loss)

@GSM: I'm surprised you didn't play City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Blood Moon, RR goblin. That beats all our Thassas but still loses to the Ceiling deck.

[dte]

Even in hindsight I don't think I could have done much better. There are 1-mana spells that answer the indestructible lands, but then your land is vulnerable to Strip Mine. There are answers to Oracle's trigger, but they don't do well against the 1/3 that's left behind.

In indsight, FoV, rhinos, shambler, indestructible green land would have done the full sweep.

Otherwise I have the exact same scores as Silkster despite very different strategies except the T2 oracle. So nothing else mattered, was a bit 2CB. So totally fine with banning oracle, labman and black lotus, or to chose plains plains squire squire as next ceiling deck. I have not seen the power level drop at all in any round.

[FTW]

In indsight, FoV, rhinos, shambler, indestructible green land would have done the full sweep.

Force of Vigor can't destroy indestructible artifact lands. That deck also beats the ceiling deck on the play.

[dte]

Force of Vigor can't destroy indestructible artifact lands. That deck also beats the ceiling deck on the play.

Damn, I somehow thought it exiled things :/
But it doesn't beat the ceiling deck OTP, or I don't see how?

[FTW]

Damn, I somehow thought it exiled things :/
But it doesn't beat the ceiling deck OTP, or I don't see how?

T1 suspend Rhinos, go.
Races 1/2 flyer.
Edit: Unless you mean green tapped land? Not clear from description

[dte]

T1 suspend Rhinos, go.
Races 1/2 flyer.
Edit: Unless you mean green tapped land? Not clear from description

Yes I did. Are there indestructible lands that produce G and come into play untapped?

[FTW]

PS: weigh in if you would like to ban Oracle, Lab Man, and Jace WoM for the last two rounds.

Sure I'm happy to have those banned too. The format's stagnant.

Re: Strip Mine. Banning doesn't make sense unless you also ban Ghost Quarter (functional equivalent) and Wasteland (close).

[Asthereal]

Sure I'm happy to have those banned too. The format's stagnant.

Re: Strip Mine. Banning doesn't make sense unless you also ban Ghost Quarter (functional equivalent) and Wasteland (close).

Same here

[Wrath of Pie]

Sure I'm happy to have those banned too. The format's stagnant.

Re: Strip Mine. Banning doesn't make sense unless you also ban Ghost Quarter (functional equivalent) and Wasteland (close).

Volatile Fault, Field of Ruin, and Demolition Field might be close enough as well, especially if we're keeping Lotus around.

[dte]

I think black lotus is more obnoxious than strip mine/ghost quarter.

[silkster]

I think black lotus is more obnoxious than strip mine/ghost quarter.

I find Black Lotus quite interesting because you can power out a turn 1 threat, but you still have to lose on the play to something, so playing Lotus heavily restricts the other cards that you can play. The number of Lotuses per round has been: 3, banned, 2, 2, 7, 2, banned. And being banned means that one of them in the previous round scored very little. I think I'll leave it for now, but would maybe do another season like this without it.

I put the scores in and hopefully they're right. We'll go with

Next ceiling deck: Duress, Swamp, Burglar Rat, Strip Mine

with newly banned: Thassa's Oracle, Laboratory Maniac, Jace, Weilder of Mysteries, Strip Mine, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland, and Volatile Fault, in addition to Duress and Burglar Rat for this round. Swamp is not banned.

I think the 2-mana cost of Field of Ruin and Demolition Field is enough that they aren't free additions to most 3-card packages, so I'll leave them in for now.

[Asthereal]

I think black lotus is more obnoxious than strip mine/ghost quarter.
It might have been if the ceiling decks weren't trying to win with 2 mana 1/1s. :wink:

[FTW]

I think black lotus is more obnoxious than strip mine/ghost quarter.

I think Lotus balances out LD and increases creativity.

Otherwise we quickly fall into 1cmc.dec:
- 1 mana LD (Sea's Claim)
- 1-mana discard
- 1 mana removal
- most efficient 1 mana threats

We've done so many seasons of that. Lotus opens up more creative high cmc strategies that didn't exist before (as long as degenerate wins like Thassa are banned).

Lotus is balanced by having to lose to the ceiling deck. You can't turn 1 things that beat the ceiling deck on the play. I played double Lotus turn 1 discard and scored 5 points. Even Lotus+Gray Ogre beats this ceiling deck, too good.

[silkster]

46ead3ae6ed632256f39b2e1c3b6d0f7acfdca6765e5c111a509e19e59cf9858

Checking now.

[silkster]

One PM was sent a little while ago to Wrath of Pie. I'll wait about 3 hours I think, while I do some other things.

While I'm here, I'll mention that next week I'll be travelling on Tuesday, so deadline will be Wednesday the 10.

[silkster]

My apologies to Wrath of Pie who submitted a legal deck that I got wrong. I think I'm 2/5 on deck that I think are illegal. :laugh::frown:

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens, comment: Goblin Smash!
Wrath of Pie: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Black Lotus, Field of Ruin, comment: Still better than Backbuild!
Asthereal: Mishra's Factory, Simic Growth Chamber, Thief of Existence, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin, comment: Subtly losing to LD
dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga, comment:
Silkster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Elemental Eruption, Black Lotus, comment: dragon smash
Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory, Mox Jet, Collective Brutality , Doomblade, comment: T1 duress

[silkster]

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens, comment: Goblin Smash!
WW - This is really close, so I might be wrong. I suspend one Bloom and hold the other for Show and Tell. GS makes 8 1/1s, then I make 2 4/4s. If goblins attack first, we trade 6g, 4d, 5g, 4d, 4g, 4d, 3g, 8d. If I attack first, I win because we're trading the same amount of damage each swing. If Show and Tell is held back, my one suspended Bloom eventually lands.
This is probably the better version of storm but with the weaker payoff.
Edit: I realize now that this only makes 6 goblins, though that doesn't change my result.

Wrath of Pie: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Black Lotus, Field of Ruin, comment: Still better than Backbuild!
WW - Forgot that Field of Ruin couldn't hit Swamp. I've never actually played with the card. I had Black Lotus + Sinkhole as one of my lists, which was legal because Duress could tag the sorcery.

Asthereal: Mishra's Factory, Simic Growth Chamber, Thief of Existence, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
WW - I thought this deck was illegal for a moment too, forgetting that after Duress grabs Oko, all 3 other cards are needed to make a lasting threat, so the Rat picks that apart. I even had a few decks like this among my drafts.

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin, comment: Subtly losing to LD
WW - Oh right, Force of Will is a reason that this version of storm isn't totally worse.

dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga, comment:
LL - Another beauty. I've owned 4 Anvils from when they were in print, and I was not going to think of something like that. You're really squeezing all you can out of Mana Crypt.

Silkster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Elemental Eruption, Black Lotus, comment: dragon smash

Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory, Mox Jet, Collective Brutality , Doomblade, comment: T1 duress
LL - I considered playing turn 1 Collective Brutality. I didn't like that it missed Black Lotus and Bitterblossom, so I moved away from it quickly, though who knows if that's right. I'm glad there isn't a functional equivalent to Duress, cause I think it would have ruined the round.

I was amused this week that a few old classics were legal, like Treetop Village, Golgari Rot-Farm, Assassin's Trophy, Elixir of Immortality. I didn't want to be so vulnerable to land hate, but I was on this deck for a while.

[Reeplcheep]

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens, comment: Goblin Smash!
WL can’t quite stabilize even with the lifegain. Very clever deck.

Wrath of Pie: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Black Lotus, Field of Ruin, comment: Still better than Backbuild!
LL

Asthereal: Mishra's Factory, Simic Growth Chamber, Thief of Existence, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
LL

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin, comment: Subtly losing to LD
Spells trade and I would win race so you hang back to draw. DD

dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga, comment:
Doom blade and factory trade for the two tokens and then you die to crypt. WW

Silkster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Elemental Eruption, Black Lotus, comment: dragon smash
WW

5W 2D 5L for 17/36

[FTW]

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin, comment: Subtly losing to LD
Spells trade and I would win race so you hang back to draw. DD

I can Force Mox, stopping all 3 of your cards. If you don't play Mox, I play T6 3/3 and race.

[dte]

dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga, comment:
Doom blade and factory trade for the two tokens and then you die to crypt. WW

I think it is WL: OTD you discard two cards before I make a token.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Storm"

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens
That's me, storming with Goblins!

Wrath of Pie: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Black Lotus, Field of Ruin
Goblins smash! 6-0

Asthereal: Mishra's Factory, Simic Growth Chamber, Thief of Existence, Oko, Thief of Crowns
Goblins smash! 6-0

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin
You use the Force :( 0-6

dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga
Annexed :( 0-6

Silkster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Elemental Eruption, Black Lotus, comment: dragon smash
Dragons are cheating :( 0-6

Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory, Mox Jet, Collective Brutality , Doomblade, comment: T1 duress
Goblin smash, then discard 3-3

15 goblin points!

[silkster]

I think it is WL: OTD you discard two cards before I make a token.

Doesn't Reeplcheep always discard two cards before you make a token? Even if you T1 Crypt + Saga + Anvil, you pass your second turn and make a token in Reeplcheeps main phase. I think the 4/4 constructs get there even if you're on the draw.

Reeplcheep; dte
T1: Factory, Mox; Saga, Crypt, Anvil
T2: discard CB, attack for 2; Crypt (20,15) Saga to 2, pass
T3: discard DB, Saga makes token; Crypt (20,12) Saga makes second token, attack for 4 (16,12)
T4: pass; Crypt (16,9); attack for 8 (8,9)
T5: Factory attacking loses to the next attack. Factory not attacking loses to the next two attacks.

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Black Lotus, Field of Ruin, comment: Still better than Backbuild!

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens, comment: Goblin Smash! - LL
Asthereal: Mishra's Factory, Simic Growth Chamber, Thief of Existence, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment: - WW - I did submit an Oko strategy first, before I realized that t1 Field of Ruin is way better than trying to do anything with nonbasic lands.
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin, comment: Subtly losing to LD - WW
dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga, comment: - WW - dte still being brilliant, of course. Unfortunately, I can just let Mana Crypt kill you.
Silkster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Elemental Eruption, Black Lotus, comment: dragon smash - LL - I was expecting more Lotus Bloom.
Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory, Mox Jet, Collective Brutality , Doomblade, comment: T1 duress - WW

8w = 24 points

I stand by my comment, because the worst part of Backbuild is arguing incessantly over what you have to beat, and here you get the spirit of Backbuild without the stupid arguing.

[Asthereal]

Asthereal's results for this round:

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens, comment: Goblin Smash! -WW
Disagreement here. Goblins don't smash, as you make only 6 and I get to dump my Thief of Existence from Show and Tell, and it single-handedly holds back your 6 gobbos. From there I have time to deploy my lands, use Factory to do the defensive duties, trade Thief for 3 tokens and then deploy Oko and trade your remaining tokens for food. (I fear you also don't win OTP against Reepl as he gets to block with Factory. He can't race though, so that's probably a draw.)

Wrath of Pie: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Black Lotus, Field of Ruin, comment: Still better than Backbuild! -LL
Bold move to spend two cards on an LD plan with Black Lotus and Field of Ruin. Works well though. I can't beat it.

Asthereal: Mishra's Factory, Simic Growth Chamber, Thief of Existence, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment: <-me

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin, comment: Subtly losing to LD -WW
See below for math. Cove turns out to be too slow.

dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga, comment: -LL
Nice one again. OTD I lose too many cards. OTP math below. I'm one turn too slow.

Silkster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Elemental Eruption, Black Lotus, comment: dragon smash -LL
Can't stop this.

Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory, Mox Jet, Collective Brutality , Doomblade, comment: T1 duress -WW
Brutality can't get Oko, so that boy runs away with the game.

Total: 18 points

---

Against FTW, OTD
F: Cove
A: Factory
F: Cove=1
A: Chamber, bounce Factory
F: Cove=2
A: Factory, cast Oko, you FoW exiling Griffin, F=19
F: Cove=3
A: Cast Thief
F: Cove=4
A: Attack for 5, F=14
F: Cast Griffin
A: Attack for 3, F=11
F: Cove=1, hold back Griffin
A: Attack for 3, F=8
F: Cove=2
A: Attack for 3, F=5
F: Cove=3
A: Attack for 3, F=2
F: Cove=4
A: Attack for 5, you can't block both.

Against dte, OTP
A: Factory
d: Crypt, Saga, Anvil
A: Discard Oko, play Chamber, bounce Factory
d: d=17, discard Chancellor, make 3/3 dude
A: Discard Thief, play Factory
d: d=14, upkeep make another token, both are 4/4 now, attack with one, A=16
A: wait
d: d=11, attack with one, A=12
A: wait
d: d=8, attack with one, A=8
A: wait
d: d=5, attack with one, A=4
A: wait
d: d=2, attack with both, I can only block one and die.

[Reeplcheep]

Lots of miscalculations on my part.

Only 6 goblins makes me DW vs smashmaster.

Vs DTE, if I am going to discard all my cards anyways I drain with brutality on t2 instead of attacking. So t4 is 10/9, t5 is 2/4. So on t6 I barely kill you. OTD I discard cb before I push through annex. WL

Vs ftw I get forced

So
4W 1D 7L for 13/36

[dte]

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens, comment: Goblin Smash!
6-0, annex. Pretty smart way to play T1 EtW against this ceiling deck!
6

Wrath of Pie: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Black Lotus, Field of Ruin, comment: Still better than Backbuild!
0-6, nice LD
6

Asthereal: Mishra's Factory, Simic Growth Chamber, Thief of Existence, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
6-0, but close
12

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin, comment: Subtly losing to LD
6-0, annex tax. Also the only deck present I more or less anticipated (FoW/Cove)
18

dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga, comment:
Me, counting in crypt. Thanks WoP and Silk for the nice words, but anvil was a mistake: the original trinisphere would have avoided 2/3rd of the losses.

Silkster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Elemental Eruption, Black Lotus, comment: dragon smash
6-0, anvil discard
24

Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory, Mox Jet, Collective Brutality , Doomblade, comment: T1 duress
3-3, close encounters.
27

I thought the meta would be mostly marit lage (I had T1 trini, T2 lage) vs fow/cove vs channex/fountain. Turns out there were two storms, only one FoW, no lage, no other channex. My deck still did good!

[FTW]

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Subtlety, Misthollow Griffin, comment: Subtly losing to LD

This was a good round to play questions that lose to Duress/Wasteland than answers that don't beat the ceiling deck. Force+Cove had to be underpowered so much it loses to too much.


GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens, comment: Goblin Smash!
Force on Lotus stops you. WW 6-0

Wrath of Pie: Hall of Storm Giants, Calciform Pools, Black Lotus, Field of Ruin, comment: Still better than Backbuild!
Force on Lotus slows down your LD to turn 3, still too slow for me to make a threat. LL 0-6

Asthereal: Mishra's Factory, Simic Growth Chamber, Thief of Existence, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
Force Oko exiling Griffin. T6 3/3, then T12 3/3. Apparently that's exactly 1 turn too slow to stabilize against your 3/4 and Factory. LL 0-6

dte: Chancellor of the annex , Anvil of bogardan, Mana crypt , Urza's saga, comment:
Chancellor stops Force. I can still cast Force, exiling Griffin, to protect Griffin from Anvil discard. Then play T6 griffin. But that's raced by your 2 4/4s on T3. LL 0-6

Silkster: Lotus Bloom, Lotus Bloom, Elemental Eruption, Black Lotus, comment: dragon smash
I'm best off Forcing an Elemental Eruption copy instead of a Lotus. You'll still get 3 4/4s on T4, which easily races my T6 3/3. LL 0-6

Reeplcheep: Mishra’s Factory, Mox Jet, Collective Brutality , Doomblade, comment: T1 duress
Force Mox stops all 4 of your cards, so my slow 3/3 gets there. WW 6-0

12 points (4 wins, 8 loss)

[silkster]

Can we confirm the score for the goblins? It seems they might only score 7 points, which would make them the next and possibly last ceiling deck.

I looked at the scores briefly last night and thought it would be the Force of Will deck and I had a few ideas that I liked. But losing to Show and Tell would be very interesting too.

[dte]

I believe 7 for gobs to be correct.

[Asthereal]

Can we confirm the score for the goblins? It seems they might only score 7 points, which would make them the next and possibly last ceiling deck.

I looked at the scores briefly last night and thought it would be the Force of Will deck and I had a few ideas that I liked. But losing to Show and Tell would be very interesting too.

I'm pretty sure the gobbos are in trouble. Having only 6 tokens means he can't win through a blocker that kills one per turn, as he'd get 5+4+3+2+1 damage in, and that's it.

In my case I can first drop my 3/4 with S&T, then wait until I can keep Factory behind as a blocker. From there I can attack with my 3/4, which he has to trade for 3 gobbos or he just dies.
Best case scenario he has 3 gobbos left, I then drop Oko and +2. He can hit it down to 3 loyalty. From there I keep Factory up again, and tick up Oko faster than he can kill it.
From here I just tick up until I have enough loyalty to start trading food for tokens and just win.

If he'd had 8 tokens, he'd probably have won all these, but he needed the Omniscience to not accidentally beat the CD and be disqualified. :frown:

[Wrath of Pie]

We get to be smashed by goblins again.

[Reeplcheep]

Are we going to have the same extra bans?

[silkster]

Yes, the same extra bans apply. Oracle, lab man, empty library Jace, strip, waste, gq, and volatile fault. And the ceiling deck itself, as usual.

I think it worked well this past week, giving us lots of diversity. Black lotus, lotus bloom, mana crypt, charge land with 3 spells, 4 mana sources, land plus mox, and ravnica bounce land. It's like the whole spread!

[dte]

Does it means it's started?

[silkster]

We seem to be in agreement about the scores, so I open Round 9:

Ceiling deck: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Empty the Warrens,

All cards in the ceiling deck are banned, as well as:
Thassa's Oracle
Laboratory Maniac
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
Wasteland
Volatile Fault.

I will be quite busy on Tuesday the 9th, so the deadline will be 24 hours later: Wednesday the 10th, at 11AM EDT (New York summer time).

[FTW]

Thanks to Show & Tell vs 6 1/1 goblins instead of 8, the banlist includes: Subtlety
Force of Will
Misthollow Griffin
Thief of Existence
Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor of the Forge
Goblin Lackey + big goblin
Warren Instigator
Goblin Assailant

I don't envy GSM trying to find a viable Goblin deck.

At last we've reached Backbuild

[silkster]

Excuse me, you can totally play and even cast Force of Will by playing it along with Saprazzan Cove, Field of Ruin, and Phyrexian Devourer! :tongue:

On a less goofy note, we might consider what we want to do after this round. I had proposed this season to be 9 rounds, and the next one I was planning on was to do the same thing with a banlist or in Legacy instead of Vintage, but then this season started folding it in on itself and required some bans. Maybe we continue as is. Also FTW might also have a season in mind.

1) Play another 9 rounds the same way we've done these last few rounds with 7 cards banned.
2) Play a new ceiling season with a larger banlist.
2b) Make a new starting ceiling deck the same way we did this time, taking the median deck from whatever people feel like submitting.
3) FTW season (probably coming back to this afterward.)

[dte]

I am happy with all options, but I would really like to see if the power level tends to climb or drop in a ceiling season. This week is the first time it clearly dropped for me, or at least it is the first week I feel I have submitted a much weaker deck. I am curious about whether it goes back to full power or not.

So if option 3 is chosen, I would like to see a couple more rounds of this season before (not necessarily 9, maybe 2 or 3).

And otherwise, big thanks and congrats on a season running perfectly smoothly!

[FTW]

On a less goofy note, we might consider what we want to do after this round. I had proposed this season to be 9 rounds, and the next one I was planning on was to do the same thing with a banlist or in Legacy instead of Vintage, but then this season started folding it in on itself and required some bans. Maybe we continue as is. Also FTW might also have a season in mind.

1) Play another 9 rounds the same way we've done these last few rounds with 7 cards banned.
2) Play a new ceiling season with a larger banlist.
2b) Make a new starting ceiling deck the same way we did this time, taking the median deck from whatever people feel like submitting.
3) FTW season (probably coming back to this afterward.)

I like options 1) and 2b).

This season's median deck may have been skewed upwards by me submitting a Tier 0 deck. Our starting Median deck didn't lose to Turn 0 discard, Strip Mine + Chancellor, or FoW + Thassa, so the season started off on a strong note. Starting with a lower powered median deck, the whole season may be very different. Imagine if the starting deck was closer to the power level of the current ceiling deck.

[silkster]

We've always played seasons with a predetermined number of rounds, but I realize now that we don't necessarily have to do that. My plan now is to declare a winner after 9 rounds in the way that I was intending, then carry on as usual for some number of rounds (perhaps a mini-season of 4 rounds), and then maybe restart a new season with a more modest starting deck. If people don't care about knowing the season's end, we can just see how it goes.

My submission: 519f586abd85709dcca5d95127056b5284c02e27c35c010c362bafceb8ae55d4

[Asthereal]

Excuse me, you can totally play and even cast Force of Will by playing it along with Saprazzan Cove, Field of Ruin, and Phyrexian Devourer! :tongue:

On a less goofy note, we might consider what we want to do after this round. I had proposed this season to be 9 rounds, and the next one I was planning on was to do the same thing with a banlist or in Legacy instead of Vintage, but then this season started folding it in on itself and required some bans. Maybe we continue as is. Also FTW might also have a season in mind.

1) Play another 9 rounds the same way we've done these last few rounds with 7 cards banned.
2) Play a new ceiling season with a larger banlist.
2b) Make a new starting ceiling deck the same way we did this time, taking the median deck from whatever people feel like submitting.
3) FTW season (probably coming back to this afterward.)

I like option 2.

Also, I think having a fixed number of rounds that's known from the start is better, but we're doing this for fun so having the cleanest variant of the competition possible might be outweighed by having more fun.

[silkster]

Ceiling Season - Round 9

GoblinSmashmaster: City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Blood Moon, Kuldotha Rebirth, comment: Goblin clash!
Reeplcheep: Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, Duskmoss Bridge, Carrion Feeder, comment: Math is for Blockers
dte: Goblin Marshal, Mox sapphire , Flash, Blinkmoth Nexus, comment: Flashgob smash! A viable goblin deck for FTW?
Wrath of Pie: Gideon of the Trials, Great Hall of the Citadel, Mana Crypt, Field of Ruin, comment: No Lotus? No problem!
FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins!
Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit, comment:
Silkster: Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Jet, Punishing Fire, Assassin's Trophy, comment: exactly to zero

[silkster]

Oops. I get a bunch of draws.

GoblinSmashmaster: City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Blood Moon, Kuldotha Rebirth, comment: Goblin clash!
WL - If I get to play my land first, I always hold up mana and float BG if you cast Blood Moon.

Reeplcheep: Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, Duskmoss Bridge, Carrion Feeder, comment: Math is for Blockers
WW - Punishing Fire will always be able to catch the Feeder.

dte: Goblin Marshal, Mox sapphire , Flash, Blinkmoth Nexus, comment: Flashgob smash! A viable goblin deck for FTW?
WW - I take 16 damage along the way, but you're one goblin short. Very nice find of a terrible card. That's what I was hoping for this season.

Wrath of Pie: Gideon of the Trials, Great Hall of the Citadel, Mana Crypt, Field of Ruin, comment: No Lotus? No problem!
DD - Field of Ruin ruins my day, but if you cast Gideon first then I can kill him and Crypt kills you.

FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins!
DD - If Smallpox hits my land, I lose, so I just don't play it. If you Smallpox and don't hit my land, I can kill The Rack and take over. I like how all these cards work together just right, and also appreciate that you couldn't play Dunes of the Dead because it's too good.

Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit, comment:
WW - I've been hoping to play Divine Gambit for a while, but the double :w::w: cost is just so punishing.

Silkster: Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Jet, Punishing Fire, Assassin's Trophy, comment: exactly to zero
I really like that I take exactly 20 damage against Empty the Warrens. It turns out, though, that my late switch was bad. LED, LED, Lingering Souls, Insatiable Gorgers scores 11W and 1D (against Goblin Marshall) against this field.

[dte]

GoblinSmashmaster: City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Blood Moon, Kuldotha Rebirth, comment: Goblin clash!
6-0. I have more goblins! Gobs smash!

Reeplcheep: Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, Duskmoss Bridge, Carrion Feeder, comment: Math is for Blockers
6-0, I am a bit faster. Gobs smash zombies!
12

dte: Goblin Marshal, Mox sapphire , Flash, Blinkmoth Nexus, comment: Flashgob smash! A viable goblin deck for FTW?
Me, doing mimicking and a true goblin smash deck. Also featuring one of my favourite gob, the marshal. Played it a lot as casual when urza was out.

Wrath of Pie: Gideon of the Trials, Great Hall of the Citadel, Mana Crypt, Field of Ruin, comment: No Lotus? No problem!
6-0. Gobs smash gideon!
18

FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins!
0-6. How many is too many? Gobs smash! No, too few goblins :(
18

Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit, comment:
6-0. Divine Gambit looks pretty good here, but gobs smash!
24

Silkster: Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Jet, Punishing Fire, Assassin's Trophy, comment: exactly to zero
2-2. As I understand it, exactly 0 is how much damage you can do to your opponent? Also wouldn't we DD as well against your LED deck?
26

[FTW]

FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins!

This races 5 1/1 goblins but too slow for 6! (Smallpox kills 1, Spirit token kills another, 3 damage Rack vs 4 1/1s).

GoblinSmashmaster: City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Blood Moon, Kuldotha Rebirth
OTP I play T1 Rack. If you play T1 Kuldotha and leave Blood Moon+City in hand, I Smallpox and put you down to 1 goblin + 1 card in hand, losing Rack's 2 damage. So you play T1 Blood Moon to stop Smallpox, then T2 Kuldotha and start attacking turn 3 vs Rack's 3 damage. Rack deals damage sooner and wins the race.
OTD you play T1 Blood Moon. I can't Smallpox but play T1 Rack, and you're again taking Rack damage before you can make 3 1/1s.
WW 6-0


Reeplcheep: Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, Duskmoss Bridge, Carrion Feeder
OTP T2 Smallpox beats tapped land, and I'll have a 1/1 + 1 Rack damage.
OTD you can Cabal Therapy the Smallpox. I'll still have Rack, but Carrion Crawler should race that.
WL 3-3


dte: Goblin Marshal, Mox sapphire , Flash, Blinkmoth Nexus
If you play Flash-Marshall, Smallpox leaves you with too few resources: 3 1/1s vs 1/1 + Rack.
If you do nothing, Smallpox leaves you unable to make Goblins (discard Marshal or Flash). To block my 1/1 Spirit you play Mox + Blinkmoth, but then Rack races.
WW 6-0

Wrath of Pie: Gideon of the Trials, Great Hall of the Citadel, Mana Crypt, Field of Ruin
T1 Gideon gets under Smallpox. Rack+Crypt = 6 damage per turn, so you make an emblem. Rack damage can no longer be redirected to Planeswalkers, so I can only interact with Gideon with my 1/1 (via either Smallpox or your LD). Gideon needs 5 attacks to win. To survive my 1/1, you just need to +1 a few times first (targeting the spirit), then Gideon can survive to attack 5 times.
LL 0-6

Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit
OTP T2 Smallpox beats tapped land. If you lead with Field of Ruin first, I still Smallpox (lose Field of Ruin). If you discard Priest, Gambit can't stop both Rack and the 1/1 spirit. If you discard Gambit, Priest is raced by Rack.
OTD you have T1 tapped farm T2 Field of Ruin, taking me off Smallpox. I play Gods Eye first so I'll get a 1/1 + Rack. This time you can both kill Rack and play Priest to race the 1/1.
WL 3-3

Silkster: Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Jet, Punishing Fire, Assassin's Trophy
I play T1 Gods Eye + Rack. If you Trophy Rack, I Smallpox your land and my 1/1 Spirit wins. If you Trophy my land, Punishing Fire kills the 1/1 but Rack wins. If you do nothing, I can't Smallpox first (you discard Punishing Fire and have Trophy for Rack).
DD 2-2

20 points (6 wins, 2 draws, 4 loss)

[FTW]

FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins!
6-0. How many is too many? Gobs smash! No, too few goblins :(
18

Disagreement. See above. I built to beat 5 1/1 goblins & lose to 6 1/1s.

4 1/1s + manland loses a bit more than 5 1/1s vs Smallpox. Seems like straightforward WW for me.


Silkster: Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Jet, Punishing Fire, Assassin's Trophy, comment: exactly to zero
I really like that I take exactly 20 damage against Empty the Warrens. It turns out, though, that my late switch was bad. LED, LED, Lingering Souls, Insatiable Gorgers scores 11W and 1D (against Goblin Marshall) against this field.

I had Mishra's Workshop + Juggernaut. But I didn't think of the LED tech, so my version was losing to Smallpox. LED + Souls is a clever way to play around Smallpox & LD.

Can your deck win any games?
1R Punishing Fire opponent -> Opponent -2, +1
R return Punishing Fire -> Opponent +1
Net = 0 damage

I think this needs to be Mox Ruby so you can cast Punishing Fire without lifegain, but then you can't play Trophy.

[dte]

Disagreement. See above. I built to beat 5 1/1 goblins & lose to 6 1/1s.

4 1/1s + manland loses a bit more than 5 1/1s vs Smallpox. Seems like straightforward WW for me.

Sorry, I meant 0-6. I agree I am missing. Corrected now.

On the other hand, I think you got your MUs vs Reep and Asthereal wrong.

[Reeplcheep]

Reeplcheep: Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, Duskmoss Bridge, Carrion Feeder, comment: Math is for Blockers
I was too lazy to figure out something that barely stabilize, to my detriment.

GoblinSmashmaster: City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Blood Moon, Kuldotha Rebirth, comment: Goblin clash!
Guessed wrong on enchantment vs destroy LD. LL

dte: Goblin Marshal, Mox sapphire , Flash, Blinkmoth Nexus, comment: Flashgob smash! A viable goblin deck for FTW?
Too fast. LL

Wrath of Pie: Gideon of the Trials, Great Hall of the Citadel, Mana Crypt, Field of Ruin, comment: No Lotus? No problem!
Guessed right on enchantment vs destroy LD. WW

FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins!
Rack kills on my T9 (0+1+7x3) and I kill on t8 if I skip a turn to CT. WL

Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit, comment:
Gravecrawler races if you gambit my land. You could win the race if you gambit my creatures so I CT first and win. WW

Silkster: Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Jet, Punishing Fire, Assassin's Trophy, comment: exactly to zero
LL (edit: DD no wincon?)

5W 2D 5L for 17/36

[silkster]

Oops :tongue::frown:

Really should have played those gorgers.

Note: Since no deck can go 0-6 against me, this deck will be skipped when looking for the next ceiling deck.

Don't forget to put your scores in the sheet (link in signature).

[Wrath of Pie]

Wrath of Pie: Gideon of the Trials, Great Hall of the Citadel, Mana Crypt, Field of Ruin, comment: No Lotus? No problem!

GoblinSmashmaster: City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Blood Moon, Kuldotha Rebirth, comment: Goblin clash! - LL
Reeplcheep: Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, Duskmoss Bridge, Carrion Feeder, comment: Math is for Blockers - LL
dte: Goblin Marshal, Mox sapphire , Flash, Blinkmoth Nexus, comment: Flashgob smash! A viable goblin deck for FTW? - LL
FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins! - WW
Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit, comment: - WW
Silkster: Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Jet, Punishing Fire, Assassin's Trophy, comment: exactly to zero - DD - This is a top-tier (unintentional) dadjoke.

4w2d = 14 points

Seems t1 Field of Ruin was respected more this round.

[GoblinSmashmaster]

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Goblins smash!"

GoblinSmashmaster: City of Traitors, Mox Ruby, Blood Moon, Kuldotha Rebirth, comment: Goblin clash!
That's me, smashing with too few Goblins

Reeplcheep: Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, Duskmoss Bridge, Carrion Feeder, comment: Math is for Blockers
Goblins smash! 6-0

dte: Goblin Marshal, Mox sapphire , Flash, Blinkmoth Nexus, comment: Flashgob smash! A viable goblin deck for FTW?
Goblins smash! 0-6

Wrath of Pie: Gideon of the Trials, Great Hall of the Citadel, Mana Crypt, Field of Ruin, comment: No Lotus? No problem!
Goblins smash! 6-0

FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins!
Goblins mathed :| 0-6

Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit, comment:
Goblins smash! 6-0

Silkster: Grove of the Burnwillows, Mox Jet, Punishing Fire, Assassin's Trophy, comment: exactly to zero
Goblins smash, then Trophy 4-1

22 goblin points!

[silkster]

Reeplcheep: Cabal Therapy, Gravecrawler, Duskmoss Bridge, Carrion Feeder, comment: Math is for Blockers
I was too lazy to figure out something that barely stabilize, to my detriment.

Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit, comment:
Gravecrawler races if you gambit my land. You could win the race if you gambit my creatures so I CT first and win. WW


I think Asthereal wins this on the play. Gambit catches the Bridge before it can cast anything.

[FTW]

I think Asthereal wins this on the play. Gambit catches the Bridge before it can cast anything.

Divine Gambit Show & Tells the opponent. T2 Gambit on Bridge -> Gravecrawler in play, 2/1 Gravecrawler races 2/1 Priest because Gravecrawler was played first.

[silkster]

Divine Gambit Show & Tells the opponent. T2 Gambit on Bridge -> Gravecrawler in play, 2/1 Gravecrawler races 2/1 Priest because Gravecrawler was played first.

Ha, I keep missing what cards do. Who put me in charge anyway? :tongue: :smile:


FTW: Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai , Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, The Rack, Smallpox, comment: 1 too many goblins!

This races 5 1/1 goblins but too slow for 6! (Smallpox kills 1, Spirit token kills another, 3 damage Rack vs 4 1/1s).

Asthereal: Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit
OTP T2 Smallpox beats tapped land. If you lead with Field of Ruin first, I still Smallpox (lose Field of Ruin). If you discard Priest, Gambit can't stop both Rack and the 1/1 spirit. If you discard Gambit, Priest is raced by Rack.
OTD you have T1 tapped farm T2 Field of Ruin, taking me off Smallpox. I play Gods Eye first so I'll get a 1/1 + Rack. This time you can both kill Rack and play Priest to race the 1/1.
WL 3-3


Wait, Remote Farm can't activate Field and cast both spells.

[dte]

Wait, Remote Farm can't activate Field and cast both spells.

Yes, this MU should be DD.
I think the Reeplcheep vs FTW is also not that clear, that 3 a turn beats slightly delayed 3 and growing.

[silkster]

After 9 glorious rounds and 0 illegal entries (though a few false positives from my end), we can now crown our winner:

dte - 33.2 points
FTW - 28.4
Silkster - 24.6, just barely edging out
Wrath of Pie - 23.9 because of the "drop the lowest two scores" rule
Reeplcheep - 17.8, also jumping a spot from dropping the two lowest
GoblinSmashmaster - 17.5
Asthereal - 17.2

We'll carry on with the same banlist (https://scryfall.com/search?q=thassaso+or+laboratorym+or+jacew+or+stripm+or+ghostq+or+volatilefau+or+%28wastel+t%3Aland%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) for a few rounds (probably 4 rounds, dropping the lowest score, but subject to change).

The new ceiling deck is Remote Farm, Field of Ruin, Soltari Priest, Divine Gambit, so these 4 cards are banned too.

[Reeplcheep]

2,3,4 etc kills in 5 attacks. Starting on t4 that is t8 kill.

2,2,2 kills in 10 attacks. Starting on t3 that is a t12 kill

[Reeplcheep]

Congrats DTE. You were consistently a few levels deeper than me at least. Thanks silkster for running this.

I appreciate the dropping lowest as it helps encourage more out there builds and doesn’t punish missing weeks as much.

Can we run show and tell now?

[FTW]

Congrats dte on a strong season!

After Thassa & Strip Mine were banned I ran out of good ideas, but you adapted well with smart ideas and got a lot of value out of Mana Crypt!

Silkster, great job running this season smoothly. I'm in no rush to take over and curious what another 4 rounds of this will look like.

[Wrath of Pie]

Now I really have to think of a new plan.

[silkster]

You're welcome, and thanks to everyone for participating! I'm glad the emergency bans halfway through the season were well received.

I still stand by my statement that Black Lotus isn't the same kind of problem as Oracle and Strip Mine because the strategies that come out of it are so varied, but I do appreciate that this format would be cool with a larger banlist. That's what I plan to do after these 4(ish) rounds. Feel free to make a list of what you think should be on that larger banlist.

[dte]

Thanks Silkster for a very well organized season!

For the next one, I think it would be more interesting to vary the card pool in another way than a banlist, e.g:
One block per round.
Rounds alternating vintage/legacy/modern/pauper
playing with cards that start with an a, then b, etc.
Rounds alternating 4cb and 3cb (even 2cb?)

[silkster]

It took a few minutes for me to warm up to the different formats for each round, but now I really like it. I expect that even one round of standard or pauper would cut power levels enough that they wouldn't really bounce back.

[Tylert]

hey guys!

Been following the thread from the shadows for a long time.
If we're doing some kind of block rounds (or very limited card pool) I'd be willing to join again :)

Don't force yourselves to do something for me of course :)

[silkster]

I wasn't planning to many highly restricted rounds. They usually afford less diversity and creativity, and for most blocks I'd have to start by reading the whole list of cards, which isn't very fun anymore. Broadly speaking, I was planning to do only about 1-3 rounds out of 10 that are as small as a block or a standard. I think the effects of a weaker round like that will persist through the whole season in interesting ways.

For this first round, I have decided. 7c225f976b50ced43c529ad2f7ea3034467d26c502d7ae3397b774b21a160858