4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons [Archive]

silkster

10-18-2022, 02:37 PM

Banlist after Round 14, going into Round 15:
Abeyance
Academy Ruins
Acererak the Archlich
Agonizing Remorse
Aluren
An Offer You Can't Refuse
Ancient Tomb
Angel's Grace
Anointed Peacekeeper
Arcane Denial
Arcbound Ravager
Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
Assassin's Trophy
Autonomous Assembler
Autumn's Veil
Azorious Chancery
Balance
Barbed Shocker
Barren Glory
Bayou
Bazaar of Baghdad
Bitterblossom
Black Lotus
Blackmail
Blast Zone
Blooming Marsh
Boseiju, Who Endures
Brain Maggot
Brainstorm
Burning Inquiry
Cabal Therapy
Castigate
Cathar Commando
Cavern of Souls
Cenn's Tactician
Chain of Smog
Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor of the Forge
Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Channel
Chatterstorm
Chronomaton
City of Brass
City of Traitors
Conjurer's Bauble
Consign // Oblivion
Countersquall
Crashing Footfalls
Crystal Vein
Currency Converter
Dark Deal
Dark Depths
Decisive Denial
Den of the Bugbear
Den of the Bugbear
Devoted Druid
Dovin's Veto
Dromar's Charm
Dryad Arbor
Duress
Durkwood Baloth
Eater of Days
Eldrazi Temple
Electrodominance
Elite Spellbinder
Elixir of Immortality
Elvish Spirit Guide
Empty the Warrens
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Engineered Explosives
Enthusiastic Mechanaut
Ephemerate
Ertai Resurrected
Failure // Comply
Flash
Foil
Forbidden Orchard
Force of Despair
Force of Negation
Force of Will
Fountain of Cho
From Under the Floorboards
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Generous Gift
Ghost Quarter
Goblin Cannon
Greasefang Okiba Boss
Grief
Grim Monolith
Grist, the Hunger Tide
Hangarback Walker
Hive Mind
Imp’s Mischief
Induced Amnesia
Inquisition of Kozilek
Intervention Pact
Ionize
Izzet Boilerworks
Izzet Charm
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Karakas
Karn Liberated
Keldon Halberdier
Keldon Megaliths
Khalni Garden
Kitesail Freebooter
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Laboratory Maniac
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Lifeforce
Leyline of Sanctity
Leyline of Singularity
Lingering Souls
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lodestone Golem
Lotus Petal
Lupine Prototype
Malakir Rebirth
Mana Crypt
Mana Leak
Mana Short
Mana Vault
Mardu Charm
Mayor of Avabruck
Maze of Ith
Meddling Mage
Memory Lapse
Mental Misstep
Mercadian Bazaar
Mesmeric Fiend
Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
Mirrorshell Crab
Miscast
Misdirection
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Jet
Negate
Nether Spirit
Nils, Discipline Enforcer
Nimble Obstructionist
Noxious Revival
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Old-Growth Dryads
Orim's Chant
Otawara, Soaring City
Overmaster
Pact of Negation
Parhelion II
Path to Exile
Pendelhaven
Power Sink
Prismari Command
Progenitus
Prohibit
Pyroblast
Pyrokinesis
Quagnoth
Reanimate
Red Elemental Blast
Remand
Restore Balance
Retrofitter Foundry
Rushwood Grove
Savage Summoning
Scrubland
Selesnya Sanctuary
Show and Tell
Shrieking Affliction
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Silence
Simian Spirit Guide
Skrelv's Hive
Skyknight Vanguard
Snapback
Sneak Attack
Snow-Covered Island
Solitude
Spell Pierce
Spell Queller
Spellstutter Sprite
Strip Mine
Subtlety
Sudden Substitution
Summoner's Pact
Swan Song
Swarm Shambler
Swift Reconfiguration
Talisman of Unity
Tamiyo's Safekeeping
Teferi, Time Raveler
Thassa's Oracle
The Rack
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Thespian's Stage
Thought-Knot Seer
Thoughtseize
Through the Breach
Tibalt's Trickery
Tidehollow Sculler
Tundra
Turn the Earth
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Unmask
Unsubstantiate
Veil of Summer
Vendetta
Vex
Violent Outburst
Void Rend
Walking Ballista
Wheel and Deal
Wheel of Fate
Wheel of Fortune
White Plume Adventurer
Wistful Thinking
Witherbloom Apprentice
Young Wolf
Zirda, the Dawnwaker

silkster

10-18-2022, 02:37 PM

Preserved:

4 CARD BLIND - SEASON 14 - :w::u::b::r::g: Vintage* Bannathon

The vote results were positive but without a clear winner, so I'm choosing the option that is less likely to have illegal submissions (after having personally failed 2/8 rounds last season).

You start the game with :w::u::b::r::g:, and unspent mana from this isn't lost as steps and phases end. Other unspent mana is lost normally. It can be emptied through effects like that of Mana Short. Other unspent mana is lost normally.

*The list of legal cards is the cards that are legal in Vintage, except for cards in Unfinity. (From what I can tell, those require bringing sticker sheets, and I honestly don't know even exactly how they work in paper, so we're just not including them.) Each round, all cards from all decks scoring more than 3.0 round points will be banned, or a minimum of 3 decks if the scoring is too flatly distributed. A banned list will be carefully maintained in the second post of this thread and in the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit?usp=sharing

Scoring (same as in previous seasons):
All players score season points for all rounds they play. Season points for each round equal total points scored for the round, divided by the number of opponents in that round.
The tournament organizer will make calculations (or have Google Spreadsheet figure that stuff out) and keep track of standings below. Note: season points are always rounded to one decimal.
You will find the Google Spreadsheet for season 14 here:

Participation is entirely voluntary, and all you can win is bragging rights. We do this for fun.
If you missed a round, or want to enter mid-season, no problem. You can (re-)enter in any round. All you missed was a few potential season points.
And fun. You missed out on fun. Which is a lot worse than lagging behind on the score sheet.

HOW 4 CARD BLIND WORKS

All participants create a legal 4 card deck, and send it to the tournament organizer via PM before the deadline, but after the organizer has officially started the round.
After the deadline has expired, the tournament organizer posts all decks on the forum, and participants get to figure out who wins against who, and post results.
Every participant posts results for every opponent, so that everybody gets to cross-check their results and agree on the outcome. When in doubt, the community will help.
All participants play one game on the play and one on the draw against every other participant in that round. A win gets you 3 points, a draw is worth 1 point.
This means if you win on the play and score a draw when on the draw, you will score 3 + 1 = 4 points against that particular opponent.
The tournament organizer will add all scores and create a scoring table for the round, which will show who did the best in that particular round.
We will try to play a round every week. Every round the participants send in a new deck, hoping to out-smart the others.

Note: The tournament organizer (me) also plays along. Before each round starts, ho sends his own deck to himself via PM.
Afterwards, he posts on the forum that the round can start, and only then, other participants may send in their decks for the round.
We do this because otherwise, participants can accuse the organizer of creating a deck designed to beat what others have sent in.

Sending in your deck
As mentioned, you send your deck for the round via PM to the tournament organizer, which (for now) is me: Asthereal.
Please send your deck as follows (enter relevant season number, round number, username):

Subject: 4CB S14R01 deck
(4CB so I know what it's about / S14R01 means Season 14 Round 1, please adjust accordingly)
Message: Plains, Mother of Runes, Student of Warfare, Swords to Plowshares
(I prefer to receive the cards in card tags, and in this way of presenting: {cards}cardname1{/cards}, {cards}cardname2{/cards}, {cards}cardname3{/cards}, {cards}cardname4{/cards}, but with [] instead of {}.
If you send the deck this way, I can copy and paste super fast. That saves me a LOT of time!

Please only send it after I have announced the round has started, and before the deadline (obviously).
I also participate, so I have to send my own deck to myself before any other decks come in.

When a player submits a deck containing a banned card
When a player sends an illegal deck, and it's not noticed by either the player or the tournament organizer before posting decks for the round, that the player gets to swap the illegal card(s) with (a) basic land(s) of their choice.
This way, if someone accidentally sends in a deck containing a banned card, at least they get to still play using the remaining cards.
If you do notice before decks are posted for the round, just send a new PM with a new deck containing only legal cards.
If the TO catches it in time, he/she will send a PM to the player, but the TO is not responsible for the legality of entries.

The games go as follows
- You start with all four cards from your deck in your opening hand, and play from there.
- You don't lose the game for having to draw a card when you can't (obviously), rest stays the same as in regular MtG, so if a card ends up in your library, you will draw it next draw step.
- Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent.
- Every player always plays optimally. If anyone finds a better line, that line is played.

Example
John sends in this deck: Taiga, Kird Ape, Lightning Bolt, Raze
Sarah sends in this deck: Sandstone Needle, City of Traitors, Boldwyr Heavyweights, Aftershock
This looks like John's in trouble, because the Heavyweights will crush him big time, but actually, John wins this 4 to 1 because Sarah's lands are too slow.
OTP: T1 John plays Taiga, Kird Ape, T1 Sarah plays Sandstone Needle. T2 John plays Raze and kills the Needle, after which he rides the Ape to victory.
OTD: T1 Sarah plays Needle, T1 John cannot allow her to add a City and cast the Heavyweights, so he just goes Taiga, Raze the Needle and it's a draw because no one can cast anything anymore.

If anyone finds better lines, they can be openly discussed on the forum, and in the end the score for the optimal play on both sides is the final score.
So if you're not a very experienced player, that's no problem. Others will help you find the optimal play. 4CB is all about deck building and adapting to trends in the "meta".

Bannings
We will use special banning lists for 4CB, because certain cards that seem boring end up completely breaking this format (best example is Burning Inquiry).
In the post below you will find the bannings for the formats we play.

Loops
4CB by its nature violates several ideas behind regular Magic. One of them is the idea that games should never get 'stuck'. In regular Magic you will eventually draw your library and lose, for instance.
In 4CB we lose that failsafe, and since we play with only four cards, we get stuck all the time, for instance if both players have a Greenbelt Rampager in play, and attacking becomes pointless.
Another way you can get stuck is if one player has an action they can perform every turn in order to prevent the opponent for doing anything, like tapping a land every turn with Rishadan Port.
Technically, this would fall under the ruling of a "loop". These can occur across turns, and the regular Magic rules say you can't eternally perform a loop containing a voluntary action. Instead you have to choose a number.
This doesn't fit with the main rule of 4CB that says every player always plays optimally. Because when you need to tap a land eternally to stop something from getting cast, there is no optimal number except infinite.
Getting stuck is part of 4CB, so we don't worry about it too much, but we can't ignore the loop rule completely, because otherwise a player would be able to activate Nomads en-Kor infinitely just to force a draw.
So we will be using the following rule:

If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely during a single turn, then an optimal number is determined for the loop to repeat, and after the loop has been repeated that number of times, it will stop.
If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely across multiple turns controlled by both players, that loop may continue indefinitely, even if that would lead to a draw.

Examples:
- Aimlessly activating Nomads en-Kor in order to force a draw is a loop containing a voluntary action that occurs during a single turn. This loop will not happen indefinitely.
Instead, an optimal amount is determined for the loop to occur, after which it will stop. And the optimal number, in this case, will be zero times, as there is no benefit to the game state in activating Nomads en-Kor on itself.
- If you have a land, enchanted with Squirrel Nest and an Earthcraft, you can create infinite tokens. This is also a loop containing a voluntary action that occurs during a single turn.
Here, again we would determine an optimal amount to perform the loop. Since the loop creates a token, which benefits the game state, in this case we decide the optimal number of tokens to create, and create that amount of tokens, but no more. Say the opponent has one blocker and one removal spell, and he is at 20 life. We would create 22 tokens: 1 will die to removal, 1 will get blocked, and 20 will do damage to the opponent and kill him.
- If one player has a Stormscape Apprentice in play, with mana to activate it, and the other player has a Rotting Regisaur in play, eternally tapping the Regisaur in order to not die to it would be a loop across multiple turns.
This loop is allowed in 4CB and will lead to a draw (unless there are other cards that can influence this loop, or otherwise change the outcome of the game).
- If one player is able to take infinite turns through taking actions, that does not move the game forward and so that player must make a choose a finite number of turns to take before ending the loop.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BirdsOfParadise

10-18-2022, 07:26 PM

Wrath of Pie

10-19-2022, 11:41 AM

Me: OK brain, this time, we need to build decks that can win.

Brain: Door to Nothingness

Me: No, like, they have to be good at winning. Winning without losing.

Brain: Something with Lim-Dul's Hex.

Me: Brain, please.

Brain: What? It could be good if you build it right. And if they run black mana. If they DON'T run black mana. We can lose. Win.

Me: What about using cards that are good? Laboratory Maniac?

Brain: I can get it into play as late as Turn 14. Early. As early as turn 14. Turn 10? You want turn 10? As late as turn 10, but you take 10 damage from your lands.

Me: Brain. No damage from our lands. Play cards that are good.

Brain: Yes. As early as turn 10, and we'll give everyone extra mana. No extra mana. But we'll use Hypergenesis to help opponents play their bombs. Helping is good. Helping is bad. Disruption is good. Force of Will is disruption. Sand Silos, five storage counters, Force of Will. Bam.

Me: Look, stop doing everything the backwards way. Just run Force of Will with other blue cards.

Brain: How's this: Force of Will. Misdirection.

Me: And?

Brain: Helix Pinnacle. And Veldt. No, Forest. Using good cards. Helix Pinnacle is good. It was banned last season.

Me: Forget Helix Pinnacle. Just give me a powerful effect that WUBRG mana will help me use.

Brain: Door to Nothingness

This is an excellent internal monologue.

You start each game with :w::u::b::r::g: in your mana pool, and this mana does not empty as steps and phases end. It can be emptied through effects like that of Mana Short, and other mana that is generated will empty normally.

You want the modern wording, which is like this:

You start the game with :w::u::b::r::g:, and unspent mana from this isn't lost as steps and phases end. Other unspent mana is lost normally.

*The list of legal cards is the cards that are legal in Vintage, except for cards in Unfinity. (From what I can tell, those require bringing sticker sheets, and I honestly don't know even exactly how they work in paper, so we're just not including them.) Each round, all cards from all decks scoring more than 3.0 round points will be banned, or a minimum of 3 decks if the scoring is too flatly distributed. A banned list will be carefully maintained in the second post of this thread and in the spreadsheet here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit?usp=sharing

I request an addition of bans for DD in every matchup, we could call it the Asthereal Memorial Award.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-19-2022, 12:57 PM

When can I start submitting?

Dooey

10-21-2022, 02:32 AM

Looking forward to a different kind of degenerate than 3cb/4cb where you have to bring your mana :)

FTW

10-21-2022, 10:15 AM

I'm excited to play. Thanks for organizing it silkster!

Is there a starting banlist, or do we just start with Vintage B&R and then have a Bannathon as we go? I can't even start thinking about this without seeing what degeneracy is banned and what degeneracy is allowed.

silkster

10-21-2022, 02:43 PM

I love the internal monologue. Also, I was really excited to play Lim-dûl's Hex too. Sadly, that was about when 4x Wastes entered the picture, though I do think that was for the best.

Our starting ban list is the vintage been list, so mostly dexterity and ante cards and conspiracies. All degeneracy that works is allowed. Lotus, Ball Lighting, Blood Lust, Berserk is allowed.

If the suggestion is that any deck that goes DD in every single matchup also gets banned, then I'm game. I love banning cards!

I still need to make my deck, but I have work now. I'm planning for later tonight, maybe in 7 or 8 hours.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-21-2022, 04:18 PM

i'm planning for later tonight, maybe in 7 or 8 hours.

lets gooooooooooooooo

silkster

10-22-2022, 12:30 AM

ROUND 1 OF SEASON 14: WUBRG has started.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 1, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is 29a651a7bc25f27674437fe83b0540fdcdbd345f1b0dc9ca830af574d786d65d.

DEADLINE: Tuesday October 25th at 1:00pm Eastern Daylight Time (GMT-4).

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Black Lotus, Ball Lightning, Bloodlust, Berserk.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S14R01 in the topic.

Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33800-4-Card-Blind-The-Silkster-Seasons&p=1102334&viewfull=1#post1102334) and in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit?usp=sharing), but it's currently empty. Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deckbuilding! :smile:

Wrath of Pie

10-22-2022, 12:37 PM

If the suggestion is that any deck that goes DD in every single matchup also gets banned, then I'm game. I love banning cards!

It's an inside joke because Asthereal wanted to give bonus points for that result and I argued repeatedly it was a bad idea. (It's still a bad idea, so this is the compromise.)

I still need to make my deck, but I have work now. I'm planning for later tonight, maybe in 7 or 8 hours.

This brings up an interesting philosophical question: do we actually submit decks? (Comp rules says that the deck becomes a library, which we don't do, so I find that deck is a misleading term and prefer the more descriptive term hand.)

silkster

10-22-2022, 05:09 PM

Welp, it took less than 18 hours into the first round for the thing I was fearing to happen: I realized that one of my card choices was really dumb, and the whole deck probably could have been much better. Oh well. I haven't even looked at the submitted lists yet, which brings me to my next point which is that I've already received six lists! Woohoo! I had been thinking that I should review them quickly for legality, but then I remembered that that likely isn't an issue unless someone is trying play Chaos Orb or Blacker Lotus.

This brings up an interesting philosophical question: do we actually submit decks? (Comp rules says that the deck becomes a library, which we don't do, so I find that deck is a misleading term and prefer the more descriptive term hand.)

I thought that we submitted decks and that you draw an opening hand from that, although one might wrongly infer from this that mulligans are possible. Not too long ago, someone was suggesting a variant where your cards all start in your deck and you draw them one at a time. It makes Thoughtseize look embarrassing, but probably breaks Vision Charm.

I also might have thought of them of decks because of all the MindMaster (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/limited-options-introducing-mindmaster-2006-08-14) I've played.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-22-2022, 06:17 PM

Yes but how did my deck do?

Wrath of Pie

10-22-2022, 08:32 PM

I thought that we submitted decks and that you draw an opening hand from that, although one might wrongly infer from this that mulligans are possible. Not too long ago, someone was suggesting a variant where your cards all start in your deck and you draw them one at a time. It makes Thoughtseize look embarrassing, but probably breaks Vision Charm.

I also might have thought of them of decks because of all the MindMaster (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/limited-options-introducing-mindmaster-2006-08-14) I've played.
That would easily trigger miracles, which would make them relevant in this format without having to use Brainstorm.

The cards simply start in hand. Easiest way to avoid random corner cases like this. The bigger question is whether or not deck construction applies in this case, given that what we do is more hand construction (so Cryptic Spires doesn't function, for example.)

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-22-2022, 09:19 PM

I'm pretty sure drawing your opening hand doesn't trigger a miracle or players would be pitching spirit guides to put lava axes on the stack before the game starts

silkster

10-22-2022, 10:29 PM

I'm pretty sure drawing your opening hand doesn't trigger a miracle or players would be pitching spirit guides to put lava axes on the stack before the game starts
It doesn't, but Wrath was talking about the hypothetical situation where you could mulligan to start the game. It would also enable Shelldock Isle and protect against discard, and possibly do a few other things.

Yes but how did my deck do?
I've looked at the submitted decks and I can confirm that they each have four cards and that none of those cards are Chaos Orb or Blacker Lotus.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-23-2022, 12:12 AM

Inone of those cards are Chaos Orb or Blacker Lotus.

Oh no I submitted the wrong deck

Wrath of Pie

10-23-2022, 01:22 AM

It doesn't, but Wrath was talking about the hypothetical situation where you could mulligan to start the game. It would also enable Shelldock Isle and protect against discard, and possibly do a few other things.

Only by mere technicalities does pre-game miracle not work: Miracle requires the card be drawn during a turn.

Not needing LED for Shelldock is a huge upgrade though and would easily be relevant.

silkster

10-24-2022, 11:13 AM

Still almost 26 hours to go, and I already have 11 entries, including my own! I will still wait for the deadline, of course. Hopefully a few others join in.

I should be able to post right at the deadline even with a shopping trip after my morning outing, so you can expect to see lists posted right around the official deadline.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-25-2022, 10:58 AM

It's that wonderful time, two hours before the deadline. Where I think I'm the most special poster in the world, and that surely my idea will win the game. Such hope. I can't wait to see how all the 4cb vets slap us down. Like how last season I thought 50 turns was a lot and then like 7 people showed up with flailers that just can't win games.

silkster

10-25-2022, 12:50 PM

Right now would usually be the time that I'm desperately deciding between 3 strategies, and one or two specific card choices within those strategies. But since I'm hosting, all you responsible people have already submitted. I didn't get any new entrants in the past 24 hours, but there were a few updates.

Some of the vets still intimidate me, despite the fact that I'm probably a vet at this point. I want to say that my first entry was season 7 round 2, but I'd played a bit of 3CB on reddit many years ago. Then again, didn't a newbie win last season? And dte got something like two firsts and a second in his first three (full) seasons.

silkster

10-25-2022, 01:01 PM

Season 14: Round 1 Lists

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery
3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle
4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap
5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle
6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace
8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude
9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast
10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce
12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation

Link to the spreadsheet for round 1: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit#gid=1710229930

My hashed entry was: Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation, unicycle

silkster

10-25-2022, 01:12 PM

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
Ironically, the only reason I thought of Through the Breach was because I thought of Flash first, and I knew perfectly well how it worked, but then I read it again and the "doesn't reduce colored mana" clause threw me off and I forgot that it still enters play. I was a bit rushed opening this round, but to be fair, I'm not sure I would have found much better anyway.

2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery
LL, Silence instead of a counter here is brutal.
DD, Breach is a winning response to Silence, so we stare.

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle
LL to Angel's Grace.

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap
DD, whoever flinches first loses.

5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle
WW, counters clash, but then I'm faster.

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
WW, two counters beats one.

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace
LL, nice control deck.

8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude
WW

9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast
WW, two counters meet, but then I'm faster.

10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
WW by going fast.

11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce
LL, you play Maniac and just wait.

12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation
WW, two counters beats one.

12W, 4D, 6L for 40 points.

I was really worried when the first three entries all crushed mine (there was a resubmission). I found Angel's Grace pretty early on as a counter to Thassa's Oracle, but then I had flashbacks to that time that I played Call to the Netherworld to go 4-1 against the obvious best deck of the round (Burning Inquiry) and then only one person played it. I tried to vow not to make the mistake of metagaming against what I thought was the clear best deck, though I think it took less than a season for me to repeat my mistake. I haven't actually checked how well Angel's Grace does here, but I felt instant regret when I saw people playing it.

I did expect that some people would play cards that can counter uncounterable stuff (though I missed Unsubstantiate), and I considered trying to win with stuff that doesn't need to be cast, but I thought that would be diving even deeper into the Netherworld mistake.

I was going to say that I hope my results stand cause I want these cards out, but I'm sure Oracle and Lab Man are on their way out, and both Through the Breach and Pact of Negation seem fine after that.

dte

10-25-2022, 01:23 PM

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
2-2. Looks like 2-2. I first wondered if you've knowlingly chose to keep oracle legal. That makes it clear ;)
2

2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery
Me, thinking that if Oracle is legal, it should be played.

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle
2-2 again. If I start with silence or flash, you win. If you start with flash, I answer with silence, which will let me counter flash.
4

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap
2-2 again. If you start with sculler, I answer with silence and win.
6

Up to now it is more draws thn I ever got on backbuild!

5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle
6-0. That I win.
Starting is worse for you, so you let me do something, which is Silence
answer Tibald
answer flash and win.
or answer mana short -> answer flash, tibalt your tibalt.
12

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
6-0. I silence, if you pact I let it resolve. If you answer with labman, I answer oracle.
18

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace
6-0.
Silence.
Response wheel--> counter it. Either you play grace, and I win next turn, or you do not, and I win.
Response grace. I wait, and have flash + tibalt vs wheel.
24

8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude
6-0. No Oracle?
30

9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast
0-6. I do not see how I can win here, well-designed!
30

10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
6-0. Wistful being sorcery gives me more answers.
36

11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce
6-0. Silence --> sculler --> flash.
42

12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation
6-0. Silence --> manamorphose --> Tibalt --> pact --> Flash
48

silkster

10-25-2022, 01:30 PM

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
2-2. Looks like 2-2. I first wondered if you've knowlingly chose to keep oracle legal. That makes it clear ;)

You lead on Silence. If I let it go, you Flash and win. If I counter it, you do nothing more and let me lose on my upkeep.
And here I was wondering if you chose Silence specifically to beat Pact of Negation. :tongue:

I vaguely considered a starting banlist, but
1. It's a nice change of pace to play obscenely powerful decks for a moment.
2. Using a starting banlist requires deciding on a starting banlist, and I wanted neither to choose it without input nor to spend the time collecting input.
3. Making a banlist is like having spoilers, cause it brings everyone's attention to one place before anything has even started. Going in fresh is nice once in a while. Round 2 will have plenty of context.

I look forward to lots of stuff getting banned.

Oh, I never declared anything either way, but I was thinking 12 rounds. I think the card pool will be interesting for quite some time, and I actually think the diversity of decks will only increase. The only issue is the growing banlist. We can reassess half way through.

dte

10-25-2022, 01:33 PM

You lead on Silence. If I let it go, you Flash and win. If I counter it, you do nothing more and let me lose on my upkeep.
And here I was wondering if you chose Silence specifically to beat Pact of Negation. :tongue:

I chose silence vs angel's grace and savage summoning.

But instead of countering it, why not answering by through the breach?
If I flash, you counter, If I counter, you counter.

Basically we have three instants each, so whoever moves first loses and it is DD.

Or I missed something, which I hope as I would win then :)

silkster

10-25-2022, 01:35 PM

I chose silence vs angel's grace and savage summoning.

But instead of countering it, why not answering by through the breach?
If I flash, you counter, If I counter, you counter.

Basically we have three instants each, so whoever moves first loses and it is DD.

Or I missed something, which I hope as I would win then :)

Nope, you're totally right. And I've known about this matchup for like 3 days, so I can't even pretend I was rushed after posting it.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-25-2022, 01:39 PM

[QUOTE=silkster;1102446]Season 14: Round 1 Lists

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
0-2 I don't think I can beat two pacts.

2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery
0-2 You force action with silence. I respond with labman, you respond with either flash or trickery, I respond with pact, you respond with the other.

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle
0-2 I can't beat two protection spells

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap
0-0-2 If you start I can let Sculler and Summoning Resolve. When they do, I can cast Labman, pact your counter, and cycle street wraith. If you chose to hold, then on my draw step I can cast labman, you can then flash in sculler to take pact. Once pact is taken you cast unsubstantiate and strand labman in my hand. So both of us wait for the other to take an action.
2 pts

5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle
2-0 Kill you on your upkeep with pact for Tickery
6 points, 8

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
Should have looked up the flash/thoracle combo.

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace
0-2 if I do nothing, I lose to Chancellor. So On my drawstep I cast Labman. You respond with angel's grace and Wheel and deal. If I let Wheel resolve i have no counter for Pyrokinesis. If I counter it, you pyrokinesis, and kill lab man. I could cycle Street Wraith but you're still under grace protection.

8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude
2-0 I cast labman in draw step. You now have to kill it before the step ends, this forces action from you. I respond with pact for the first answer, and you have to spend your second, I respond by Cycling Street Wraith
6 points, 14
9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast
0-2 You force action with Sculler. I respond with Labman. You cast Unsubstantiate. I respond with pact and you REB. Sculler takes the Wraith and beats me down.
10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2-0 Cast Labman in the first upkeep the first time I get priority. Channel Street Wraith
6 points, 20
11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce
2-0 On your upkeep I cycle street wraith, retain priority and cast labman. Labman resolves first then the cycle resolves. You die before your draw step where you would have won
6 points, 26
12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation
0-0-2 Whomever casts a spell loses. Since the action will be: Respond to your combo with mine, pact your pact.
2 points, 28 total

jfb1337

10-25-2022, 01:43 PM

5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
LL - You're faster and win the counter war

2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery
LL - When you have priority, you flash, I mana short, you silence, I trickery flash an you trickery back. And if I go for mana short first, you silence, we trade trickeries, then you flash.

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle
WW - If you flash, I mana short, you veil, I trickery flash. If you veil, I mana short, you flash, I trickery flash. So you do nothing. If I mana short first, you veil then flash, so I don't. I play oracle, you angel's grace, then I beat you down with a 1/3.

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap
DD - If you sculler, I mana short, you unsub, I trickery sculler. If you savage, I mana short, you unsub, I trickery unsub. So you do nothing. If I mana short first, you play savage into sculler. If I play lotus, you savage, I mana short, you unsub, I trickery unsub, you MBT. So we stare.

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
LL - I trickery labman, you pact. Mana short does nothing.

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace
WW - If you wheel I trickery it. I can mana short to lock you out of grace, then win with oracle next turn.

8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude
WW - That doesn't interact with oracle.

9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast
WL - I mana short, you unsub, I trickery, you REB mana short. Then who plays their sorcery speed threat first wins.

10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
WW - I mana short you then win.

11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce
LL - I can't stop sculler taking oracle.

12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation
LL - I trickery morphose or oracle, you pact. Mana short does nothing.

Total: 9W 2D = 29.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-25-2022, 01:57 PM

I vaguely considered a starting banlist, but
1. It's a nice change of pace to play obscenely powerful decks for a moment.

No actually it's not fun to start 30 points down because everyone else knew the best two card combo before we sat down.

Wrath of Pie

10-25-2022, 01:58 PM

12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation LL
2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery LL
3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle LL
4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap LL
5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle WW
6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation DD - We stare in anticipation.
7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace LL
8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude WW
9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast LL
10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale WW
11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce LL

6w2d = 20 points

Abrupt Decay would have been hilariously good in this round.

dte

10-25-2022, 01:59 PM

Abrupt Decay would have been hilariously good in this round.

I don't think so.

Wrath of Pie

10-25-2022, 02:01 PM

No actually it's not fun to start 30 points down because everyone else knew the best two card combo before we sat down.
Lab Maniac has a relevant advantage over Oracle: you can cast it with the starting mana.

silkster

10-25-2022, 02:04 PM

No actually it's not fun to start 30 points down because everyone else knew the best two card combo before we sat down.
Yeah, that's definitely a bad feeling. I'm sorry that happened this round.

Lab Maniac has a relevant advantage over Oracle: you can cast it with the starting mana.
Lab Man also beats Angel's Grace.

Reeplcheep

10-25-2022, 02:23 PM

11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce
Fast thassa’s oracle seemed to be the obvious choice, but anti-meta decks usually don’t pan out for me. This is a thoracle deck that trades a bit of speed for dodging a lot of the targeted hate. Not needing a setup card is nice.

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
If you through the breach, I sculler Thassa’s Oracle. I cast an uncounterable lab maniac on my t2/t1 upkeep (play draw respectively)
WW 6-0

2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery
This is where my lack of speed hurts. LL 0-6

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle
I don’t care about grace but I can’t beat veil into flash. LL 0-6

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap
MBT is dead, and so is summoning. Whoever moves first loses, so DD 2-2

5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle
mana short and tibalt’s trickery do nothing. I cast sculler in response to lotus. WW 6-0

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
A faster but more fragile version of my deck. I can sculler your wraith in response to lab manic, so whoever goes second wins. LW 3-3.
I have no window to steal street wraith. LL 0-6

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace
Angels grace is dead. With tricky play I can win. If I cast lab maniac, hold priority, sculler there is no window where both of my dudes are on the battlefield and you can pyro them both. WW 6-0.

8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude
I take your only castable removal t1 and then win. WW 6-0

9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast
LL 0-6

10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
I cast lab maniac and pay for the upkeep. WW 6-0

12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation
What I was thinking of originally. I sculler your thoracle in response to manamorphose. WW 6-0

12 2D 6L for 38/66

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-25-2022, 02:49 PM

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
A faster but more fragile version of my deck. I can sculler your wraith in response to lab manic, so whoever goes second wins. LW 3-3.

What if I put both wraith-cycle and labman on the stack at the same time?

Dooey

10-25-2022, 03:25 PM

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation

Angel's grace beats your oracle. You pact my spells then die to pact triggers. WW, 6 points, 6 total.

2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery

Agree with your assessment, we stare. DD, 2 points, 8 total.

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle

It me. 8 total.

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap

Veil doesn't stop unsubstantiate. LL, 0 points, 8 total.

5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle

Agree with your assessment. LL, 0 points, 8 total.

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation

Flash + Veil beats pact. WW, 6 points, 14 total.

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace

Angle's Grace beats oracle and 1/1 beats me down. LL, 0 points, 14 total.

8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude

Flash oracle. WW, 6 points, 20 total.

9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast

You interaction beats my defense. LL, 0 points, 20 total.

10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

I lead on flash and you can't stop it. WW, 6 points, 26 total.

11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce

Veil comes in clutch and stops sculler from taking my oracle. WW, 6 points, 32 total.

12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation

Angel's grace beats oracle, veil beats pact (or you die to pact trigger). WW, 6 points, 38 total.

A lot more variety than I was expecting with Thassa's oracle legal. I'm impressed!

silkster

10-25-2022, 05:17 PM

What if I put both wraith-cycle and labman on the stack at the same time?

That's a really slick play. I love it.

FTW

10-25-2022, 05:25 PM

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap

I overthought this round. I submitted Silence, Savage Summoning, Laboratory Maniac, Street Wraith last week. With a few hours left, I changed to the Sculler deck.

Instant Lab Man/Thassa was the obvious Tier 1. The natural way to fight it was cheap counters, so the logical step was to make the combo T0 uncounterable (Savage Summon/Leyline + cycle to draw) instead of trying to win a counter war. Silence was for the same reasons as dte. I preferred Lab Man over Thassa because you can make the whole thing uncounterable and it beats stuff like Angel's Grace and Trickbind.

As the week went on, I saw that dedicated hate decks like my current deck WW against Savage-Maniac. Savage Summoning+disruptive creature was popular in past WBURG rounds, so I expected a few. I also liked how both Unsubstantiate and Mindbreak Trap interact with uncounterable spells, thinking more players would be on the uncounterable plan. If we do everything on turn 0, Mindbreak must be relevant right? So I switched. Turns out Mindbreak is dead in almost every matchup and would be better as any other card (e.g. Trickbind, creature). I expected more Savage Summoning and less Leyline or Flash, which really affects the spell count in mirrors! Instead of trying to find the perfect hate deck, I should have just played the DTB.

1. silkster (TO): If you play Through the Breach, I can Savage-Sculler in response to exile Thassa. But if I try to play Sculler first, you can Breach in response and counter Unsubstantiate. DD 2-2
2. dte: If you try to Flash, I can Savage-Sculler in response. I can unsub Silence. If you counter with Tibalt, I can Mindbreak that. If play Silence before Flash, I Unsub Silence, you counter with Tibalt, I Savage-Sculler in response, and I can Mindbreak Flash. So instead you do nothing. But I can't act first either. DD 2-2
3. Dooey: I came ready to beat stuff like this. Veil and Angel's Grace don't interact with my deck. I can Unsub Flash and win with Sculler. WW 6-0
5. jfb1337: If you Mana Short me, I respond with Savage-Sculler exiling Thassa. If you don't Mana Short and play Lotus, I respond with Savage. You Mana Short me to prevent Sculler, I Unsub it, you counter with Tibalt, and then I have Mindbreak Trap to win the stack. So you can't act first. If I lead with Savage-Sculler, the same thing happens except Mindbreak Trap isn't live so I would lose. We stare. DD 2-2
6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: If you put Maniac on the stack, I play Savage-Sculler exiling Pact, then I can Unsub your Maniac. But if I lead with with Savage or Sculler, you will respond with Lab Man and can Pact my Unsub.
I came ready to beat this with Savage Summoning but not Leyline! Leyline is ironically better. Your spells are counterable in other MUs, but Mindbreak is dead. DD 2-2
7. GoblinSmashmaster: You start with a 1/1 so I have to act first. If I play Savage, you Wheel me and I Unsub it to save Sculler, but then you have Pyrokinesis to kill my 3/3 in response to the discard. I can't win, so I just Unsub your token instead to draw. DD 2-2
8. BirdsOfParadise: You metagamed against Unsubstantiate!! When I play Sculler, if I unsub your removal, it goes back to hand!! Then you can make more white mana. I can only exile one removal spell. You will keep the other, kill my Sculler, then win with Solitude. LL 0-6
9. Symbi: If I play T0 Savage-Sculler, you can Unsubstantiate, I Unsubstantiate back, then you REB it to win. I do nothing. If you put Tidehollow on the stack, I respond with Savage-Sculler (would be 3/3). You must disrupt with Unsub, I Unsub back, you REB mine, and then I can Mindbreak the stack to win. So we stare. DD 2-2
10. Asthereal: Edit: Wistful Thinking is a sorcery! I play Savage, you play Silence, I Unsub it, then Sculler resolves exiling The Rack. But Tabernacle will eventually kill my creature, returning Rack. LL 0-6
11. Reeplcheep: If you put Tidehollow on the stack first, I respond with Savage. You must respond with Lab Man (before I can exile it), I Unsub Lab Man, then make 3/3 Sculler. My 3/3 races your 2/2.
If you put Lab Man on the stack first, I just Unsub it. Then if you ever put Tidehollow on the stack, I Savage-Sculler making a 3/3 to win. You can't act first so we stare. DD 2-2
12. Wrath of Pie: I lead with Savage-Sculler. If you respond with Manamorphose -> Thassa, I Unsub Thassa, then if you Pact I can Mindbreak your spells. WW 6-0

Total: 26 points (4 wins, 14 draws, 4 loss)

Edit: Should have stuck with Savage-Maniac. Would be 36+ points.

Symbi

10-25-2022, 05:33 PM

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation

Misstep is blank here. LL 0-6, 0 total

2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery

Blast your flash, Misstep silence, Unsub trickery. WW 6-0, 6 total

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle

Blast flash and misstep veil. WW 6-0, 12 total

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap

If I don't play Tidehollow, if you cast your own tidehollow I unsub it and blast your unsub. If I play tidehollow, I turn on mindbreak trap. DD 2-2, 14 total

5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle

When I'm OTP you mana short and I blast, then unsub trickery when you cast it, then Tidehollow and take oracle. OTD I can't beat oracle + trickery + mana short. WL 3-3, 17 total

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation

Unsub labman and blast pact. WW 6-0, 23 total

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace

Blast wheel, unsub Pyro, and my 2/2 beats your 1/1. WW 6-0, 29 total

8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude

When I'm OTP, I cast tidehollow. You must cast solitude in response to the trigger or I take it, blast sliver queen, and misstep path. Then I let tidehollow die and take sliver queen (Note if I unsub solitude you just cast it again and it's also a draw). When I'm OTD, if you cast sliver queen I blast it and unsub solitude so you don't cast it and it's still a draw. DD 2-2, 31 total

9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast

Thats me!

10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Unsub silence, blast wistful, misstep rack, but I can't beat tabernacle. DD 2-2, 33 total

11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce

Unsub tidehollow and blast labman (when it's on the battlefield). WW 6-0, 39 total

12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation

Unsub thoracle and blast pact. WW 6-0, 45 total

FTW

10-25-2022, 05:53 PM

I was really worried when the first three entries all crushed mine (there was a resubmission).

I found Angel's Grace pretty early on as a counter to Thassa's Oracle, but then I had flashbacks to that time that I played Call to the Netherworld to go 4-1 against the obvious best deck of the round (Burning Inquiry) and then only one person played it. I tried to vow not to make the mistake of metagaming against what I thought was the clear best deck, though I think it took less than a season for me to repeat my mistake.

Good lesson learned!

GoblinSmashmaster

10-25-2022, 06:21 PM

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Thassa"

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
Goblin smash! 6-0

2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery
Tricky Tibalt silences me :( 0-6

3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle
Goblin smash! 6-0

4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap
Goblin stare 2-2

5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle
Tricky Tibalt shorts me :( 0-6

6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
Goblin smash! 6-0

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace
That's me still playing Goblins!!

8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude
Goblin smash! 6-0

9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast
Too many counters :( 0-6

10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Goblin smash! 6-0

11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce
What a maniac :( 0-6

12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation
Goblin smash! 6-0

38 Goblin points :eyebrow:

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-25-2022, 07:40 PM

That's a really slick play. I love it.

I went with labman because with a draw spell I could force action using my draw step and then cycle. The leyline was for instant speed.
The idea was, I got to have one protection spell, two cards for the combo, and a third to answer timing, plus leyline because I needed to do this all at instant speed

BirdsOfParadise

10-26-2022, 01:07 AM

BoP’s score for round “I didn’t read Thassa’s Oracle”:

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation
I didn’t read Thassa’s Oracle.
2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery
I didn’t read Thassa’s Oracle.
3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle
I didn’t read Thassa’s Oracle.
4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap
It does appear that I can pick up a win because Mindbreak Trap doesn’t work against me and Fountain of Cho counters bounce. Six points.
5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle
I didn’t read Thassa’s Oracle.
6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation
I only have one removal ready T0 or T1. You jam Lab Man, I use Solitude, you counter it, you go Street Wraith, you win.
7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace
Wheel and Deal is an instant. You can empty my hand with the Chancellor trigger on the stack. Goblin smash.
8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude
Back when I was a kid I heard about this card called Sliver Queen. I took all my savings and bought an absolutely huge number of booster packs — five, to be specific — hoping to get a Sliver Queen. I got a bunch of Spikes and some Hornet Cannons, but no Sliver Queen.
9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast
You go Sculler. With its ETB on the stack, I evoke Solitude because I don’t want to die (and I’d die if Sculler took Solitude). You cast Unsubstantiate on Solitude the spell. I evoke Solitude again, using my other white card. We draw. 2-2, that’s eight so far for me.
10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
OTP you use Wistful to empty my hand. When I am OTP, I cast Sliver Queen (only thing I can cast). Tabernacle gets rid of it and storage land can’t save it.
11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce
Fountain of Cho is too slow to cast Path to Exile. Tidehollow Sculler trades with Solitude and then Lab Man wins.
12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation
I didn’t read Thassa’s Oracle.

Oof, not much luck for Team Storage Land this time!

Total: 8 pt

Asthereal

10-26-2022, 07:15 AM

Asthereal's results for round overthinking overanalysing separates the body from the mind:

1. silkster (TO): Through the Breach, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation, Pact of Negation LL
2. dte: flash, Thassa's Oracle, silence, Tibalt's Trickery LL
3. Dooey: Angel's Grace, Veil of Summer, Flash, Thassa's Oracle LL
4. FTW: Savage Summoning, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Mindbreak Trap WW
Yay for Nacle getting a game.
5. jfb1337: Mana Short, Tibalt's Trickery, Black Lotus, Thassa's Oracle LL
6. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: leyline of anticipation, laboratory maniac, street wraith, pact of negation LL
7. GoblinSmashmaster: Chancellor of the Forge, Pyrokinesis, Wheel and Deal, Angel's Grace LL
8. BirdsOfParadise: Fountain of Cho, Path to Exile, Sliver Queen, Solitude WW
Either Whistful or Nacle gets your Queen, and you can't stop the Rack.
9. Symbi: Mental Misstep, Tidehollow Sculler, Unsubstantiate, Red Elemental Blast DD
Stare contest after we stop each other's wincon. Unsubstantiate on Silence ruins my day here. I can't replay it, lacking white mana, so you get to have Misstep for Rack and we trade all our resources.
10. Asthereal: Wistful Thinking, Silence, The Rack, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale <-me
11. Reeplcheep: Tidehillow Sculler, Laboratory Maniac, Leyline of Anticipation, Leyline of Lifeforce LL
12. Wrath of Pie: Leyline of Anticipation, Manamorphose, Thassa's Oracle, Pact of Negation LL

Total: 14 points

Yeah, simple plan of insta-launching Thassa's Orcale in whatever fashion is just better. I had like 10 decks in my gauntlet, and ended up meta'ing completely wrong.
Also, it helps if you read your cards. I had Leyline in my deck for so long I ended up forgetting that Whistful is a sorcery. Ouch.

Reeplcheep

10-26-2022, 08:15 AM

What if I put both wraith-cycle and labman on the stack at the same time?

Yes this works. I should have realized this since it’s similar to what I do against goblinsmashmaster.
Although he disagrees?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-26-2022, 08:38 AM

Yes this works. I should have realized this since it’s similar to what I do against goblinsmashmaster.
Although he disagrees?

They probably got confused by all the flash decks and assumed stopping the combo and having any body left over was enough.

silkster

10-26-2022, 12:23 PM

Reeplcheep

10-26-2022, 12:32 PM

I am forced to act, but similarly to the streetwraith deck I can put both on the stack. This means the sculler etb will trigger while the lab man is on the stack. So wheel does nothing and it is impossible to confluence both.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-26-2022, 12:36 PM

From what I can see, there are only two disagreements in the spreadsheet. One was resolved in discussion, and in the other I think Chancellor of the Forge wins against the double leyline deck. Leylines is forced to act to stop the goblin, and once one creature is committed to the board, Wheel and Deal forces the other out and then Pyrokinesis takes them both out.

I'll update the ban list later today when I'm at a computer and I'll open the round in a day or two.

If leylines casts Labman, holds priority and then also casts sculler then wheel and Deal is dead.
When sculler resolves it's trigger goes on the stack. Smasher can respond with Pyrokensis, or it can lose the pyrokensis to the tirgger. Both outcomes will leave: Kenesis unplayable. Labman on the stack.
Labman Resolves. Goblins has no answer until the draw step.

FTW

10-26-2022, 02:00 PM

If leylines casts Labman, holds priority and then also casts sculler then wheel and Deal is dead.
When sculler resolves it's trigger goes on the stack. Smasher can respond with Pyrokensis, or it can lose the pyrokensis to the tirgger. Both outcomes will leave: Kenesis unplayable. Labman on the stack.
Labman Resolves. Goblins has no answer until the draw step.

I agree. Reeplcheep wins both.

GoblinSmashmaster probably thought what silkster did. It is not obvious that you can hide Lab Man from both Pyrokinesis and Wheel and Deal by leaving it on the stack. That is not normally something you do with creatures.
Then Angel's Grace can prevent one Lab Man win, but it will win again next turn. And the 2/2 still beats a 1/1.

silkster

10-26-2022, 02:16 PM

Yup. That's what I missed. What a fun play! (Though maybe not for Reeplcheep's victim.) Thanks for checking my thoughts.

The first round is done. Oracle and Lab Man both made the ban list, as did many other turn 0 strategies, including two Leylines and one Chancellor. I'm excited for next week, but I don't know what I'm playing yet. I'll open the round in a day or two.

The new additions to the ban list (and currently the entire list) is:

Angel's Grace
Chancellor of the Forge
Flash
Laboratory Maniac
Leyline of Anticipation
Leyline of Lifeforce
Mental Misstep
Pact of Negation
Pyrokinesis
Red Elemental Blast
Silence
Thassa's Oracle
Through the Breach
Tibalt's Trickery
Tidehollow Sculler
Unsubstantiate
Veil of Summer
Wheel and Deal

Wrath of Pie

10-28-2022, 05:45 PM

I appreciate that I played three of the now-banned cards and still did poorly. Naturally, that means that someone will destroy the next round with Manamorphose.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-28-2022, 06:51 PM

I appreciate that I played three of the now-banned cards and still did poorly. Naturally, that means that someone will destroy the next round with Manamorphose.

If you have another way to cast Barren Glory, I'm all ears...

silkster

10-30-2022, 02:14 AM

ROUND 2 OF SEASON 14: WUBRG is now open.

After a bit of Halloween delay, I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 2, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is bb873832312d8834ad37070cedf26c77379531b53656939a648fc054713b7781.

DEADLINE: Tuesday November 1st at 1:00pm Eastern Daylight Time (GMT-4).

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows:

silkster: Black Lotus, Ball Lightning, Bloodlust, Berserk.

So with name, colon, and card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S14R02 in the topic.

Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33800-4-Card-Blind-The-Silkster-Seasons&p=1102334&viewfull=1#post1102334) and in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit?usp=sharing). Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy deckbuilding! :smile:

Asthereal

10-31-2022, 06:22 AM

I sent something bad, realized what was wrong with it about a minute after clicking "send", and sent something new immediately after. Apologies for the chaos. :tongue:

Wrath of Pie

10-31-2022, 09:20 AM

I sent something bad, realized what was wrong with it about a minute after clicking "send", and sent something new immediately after. Apologies for the chaos. :tongue:

That's faster than I realize things.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

10-31-2022, 12:12 PM

That's faster than I realize things.

Better than my start of just be wrong.

Asthereal

10-31-2022, 03:47 PM

Better than my start of just be wrong.
My mistake being the same mistake as last week makes me worse than you, I reckon. :laugh:

silkster

11-01-2022, 12:56 PM

Season 14: Round 2 Lists

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast

Hashed entry (with card tags): Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, no Wistful pls

Link to Round 2 in the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit#gid=1279858374

silkster

11-01-2022, 01:16 PM

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
Me, thinking that Wielder of Mysteries was not going to be a player this round. Oops.
2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter LL
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta WW
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor WW
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens WW
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare DL
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity WW
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller WW
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant DD
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City LL (two lands?!)
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries LL
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast LL

10W, 3D, 9L = 33, exactly 50-50

I felt locked in to Tabernacle + Boseiju fairly quickly, but shockingly Boseiju did almost nothing this round.

I did expect Spell Queller and Lavinia to show up. I was hoping that Mana Short would show up instead of discard spells. Painter's Servant was a fun surprise.

I previously made a comment about how easy this round was to score, but then I looked over it and found mistakes in two matches. :smile:

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-01-2022, 01:33 PM

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures Can't beat Tabernacle
0-2
2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
2-0 Veto for Jace, Edict for Smiter, Beat you down with a 3/3
6pts
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
0-2 Vendetta my 3/3
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
2-0 3/3 Vs your 1/1. You can't short me because leyline.
12 pts
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
0-2 Too many goblins
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
2-0 Edict your sire before it triggers, Veto your Void Snare (I thought it was spell snare when I wrote this up originally) You can't chant me because leyline.
18 pts
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
#TwoUncounterableSpells
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
0-0-2 If you cast the Fiend, I get to edict it, and you're left holding an answer to my Dryad forver. If you cast the Queller, then you can't solitude and will lose to my 3/3. Meanwhile I'm left holding the 3/3 all game becuase if you answer it I can't win. We stare
I forgot Chancellor is white too
18 pts
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
2-0 Edict your Servant, turning off Pyroblast, Veto your snapback/Force. Or my 3/3 races your 1/3 while you pick a spot.
24 points
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
0-2 Otawara my blocker
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
2-0 Veto your jace, beat you with my 3/3
30 points
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
2-0 Veto your Jace, Edict your Queller if you try and stop me. My 3/3 beats your 2/3 if you don't.
0-2. Queller, trigger on the stack, kill your queller. The Queller triggers will then resolve out of their normal order, leaving Veto exiled.

30 points.

FTW

11-01-2022, 02:03 PM

12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast

I took silkster's advice and played the best proactive threat instead of trying to find the perfect hate deck.

1. silkster: You can't stop Jace. WW 6-0
2. Wrath of Pie: OTP I play Jace, you Pyroblast, I Spell Quell and win. OTD you play Jace, I Pyroblast and you can't counter back. Then I play Jace and Quell your Pyroblast. WW 6-0
3. Asthereal: Nice deck! I have to Spell Quell T0 Lavinia, but you can Pyroblast on the stack (before I can do my Pyroblast trick) and then I can't play Lotus or Jace. LL 0-6
4. Symbi: I thought I had this beat with Chancellor banned (limited mana to play both counters and threats), but Dryad Arbor is a good free threat allowing you to play 2 "counters" to force through Mana Short. You Chant first, I must Spell Quell, you Pyroblast it on the stack, Chant resolves, then you Mana Short me and I can't play Jace. LL 0-6
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Edit: If I let you go Lotus -> Regrowth -> Lotus -> Twister (6 mana) -> Lotus -> Regrowth -> Twister (4 mana) -> etc... -> Empty 39 copies, you can make 78 1/1 goblins!! Jace beats summoning sickness. WW 6-0
6. jfb1337: OTP I Spell Quell your Chant, play Jace and win. OTD you Chant first, I Quell it. You Void Snare my Queller. I Pyroblast that. Then you play Sire, discard my hand, and race my 2/3 flyer. WL 3-3
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: I play Jace, you Veto, but I can Spell Quell it (exile instead of counter). I Pyroblast my own Queller in response the ETB trigger so you can't use Sudden Edict to get your Veto back. WW 6-0
8. Reeplcheep: OTP I pay the extra 1 and play Jace, you Spell Quell, and I Pyroblast back.
OTD you Mesmeric Fiend me. I must Spell Quell it (paying 1), you Quell back, I Pyroblast your Queller. My Queller resolves exiling Fiend, but then you Solitude my Queller, returning Fiend and exiling my Jace. Your 1/1 wins. WL 3-3
9. Dooey: I play Jace. You must react. Whatever you Pyroblast I Spell Quell, and whatever you Force or Snapback I can Pyroblast. WW 6-0
10. RoosterCocoa: OTP I play Jace first and +1. If you bounce with Otawara, 2/3 Spell Queller races 2/2 Lavinia.
OTD if you play T1 uncounterable Lavinia, I can exile with Spell Queller. If you bounce Queller with Otawara, Lavinia goes back on the stack but loses Cavern protection, so I counter with Pyroblast and win with Jace. If you save Otawara for Jace, Queller wins. WW 6-0
11. dte: Ah the mirror. I was torn between Veto (uncounterable) and Queller (counters uncounterable and attacks, but also dies). OTP I play Jace first, you Veto, I Spell Quell, you Pyroblast Queller, then I Pyroblast your Jace to draw.
OTD you play Jace and I Pyroblast. If you Veto, I Spell Quell, you Pyroblast that, then your Jace resolves and wins. DL 1-4

43 points (14 wins, 1 draw, 7 loss)

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-01-2022, 02:04 PM

7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: I play Jace, you try to Veto, but I can Spell Quell it (exile instead of counter). WW 6-0

And then I edict your Queller and Veto your Jace again.

FTW

11-01-2022, 02:07 PM

And then I edict your Queller and Veto your Jace again.

Right, I missed that Sudden Edict is relevant in the counter war. LL 0-6

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-01-2022, 02:09 PM

Right, I missed that Sudden Edict is relevant in the counter war. LL 0-6

Actually, you win:
Cast Lotus/Jace
I Have to veto.
You cast Queller, because it's your turn you'll have pirority first when it resolves: Pyroblast it right now.
Pyroblast kills queller
Queller's second trigger will now happen first. The cast trigger.
THEN the exile trigger will happen.
Jace/Lotus Resolves.

FTW

11-01-2022, 02:15 PM

Actually, you win:
Cast Lotus/Jace
I Have to veto.
You cast Queller, because it's your turn you'll have pirority first when it resolves: Pyroblast it right now.
Pyroblast kills queller
Queller's second trigger will now happen first. The cast trigger.
THEN the exile trigger will happen.
Jace/Lotus Resolves.

Cool stack trick! Looks like I can Pyroblast + Queller to permanently exile a card, since I don't need Pyro for anything else.

dte

11-01-2022, 02:46 PM

I did not realize the deadline was one hour earlier for me, but l guess it is these few weeks on which North America is still in Summer and Europe thinks it is Winter already.

Me, thinking that Wielder of Mysteries was not going to be a player this round. Oops.

I thought the exact opposite, that everyone would play it, and how to beat it and the decks that beat it. But then I decided to take the same advise as FTW:

I took silkster's advice and played the best proactive threat instead of trying to find the perfect hate deck.

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
6-0
6

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
6-0. Pyroblast your jace, veto your pyroblast, do not care about the elephant.
12

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
6-0. Pyroblast Lavi, veto pyroblast.
18

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
0-6. Cannot beat that.
18

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
6-0
24

6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
3-3
27

7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
0-6
27

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
3-3.
30

9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
6-0
36

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
2-2. If I had thought of Otawara, I think I would have played it, it is the perfect answer to Jace. FTW, you might want to rethink this MU.
38

11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
me, playing jace. I had a smile when I search for the card on scryfall: I entered "jace" on name, and "win" for text.

12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
4-1.
42

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
....
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity WW Edit: DD, can't target you
....
8W, 5D, 9L = 29 points (No longer putting Tabernacle and Boseiju on the banlist after not being Leyline. :frown: Should have played Shivan Gorge + Fungal Reaches?)

I dont get it, Bosejiu the leyline and win?

4 dogs seem to agree with this line

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures Can't beat Tabernacle
0-2

FTW

11-01-2022, 02:59 PM

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
2-2. If I had thought of Otawara, I think I would have played it, it is the perfect answer to Jace. FTW, you might want to rethink this MU.
38

I think you lose here. Otawara bounces Jace. Cavern makes Lavinia uncounterable (cannot Pyroblast or Veto). You cannot Pyroblast on the battlefield either (Lavinia ability), so the 2/2 kills you. LL?

In my case, if Otawara is used on Jace then 2/3 Spell Queller wins (whether it counters Lavinia or I just play it first). If Otawara targets Spell Queller on Lavinia, I lose Queller and Lavinia goes back on the stack, but then I can counter with Pyroblast and win with Jace. Spell Queller's body pays off once!

Reeplcheep

11-01-2022, 03:19 PM

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller

I thought the big players were tabernacle and Jace, but I couldn’t figure out answers to both that wasn’t a draw fest. So I went with this, and I’m prepared for a bunch WL.

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
I can’t beat tabernacle. LL 0-6

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
You have no answer to fiend on Jace. WW 6-0

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
Hardcast solitude. DD 2-2 can’t LL 0-6

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
You have to choose between blasting my Queller or shorting me. 2/3 Beats 1/1 and 1/1 beats nothing either way. WW 6-0
I guess chant doesn’t really matter. DD 2-2

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
Exile your lotus if you pay for it, but I draw vs 6 goblins. WD 4-1

6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
Chancellor makes you lose an action spell. WW 6-0

7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
Plow your dryad, smack with one remaining creature. WW 6-0

9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
3 action cards each. DD 2-2

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
Hardcast solitude. DD 2-2 Can’t. LL 0-6

11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Veto doesn’t have targets. WL 3-3.

12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
Veto doesn’t have targets WL 3-3.

9W 5D 7L 32/66.

FTW

11-01-2022, 03:35 PM

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
Veto doesn’t have targets WL 3-3.

11W 7D 4L 40/66.

Spell Queller is not Dovin's Veto and can target creatures. Still WL because you can Solitude Spell Queller.

FTW

11-01-2022, 03:43 PM

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
Hardcast solitude. DD 2-2

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
Hardcast solitude. DD 2-2

Solitude costs 3WW not 4W, so you can't hardcast with WBURG.

Lavinia says "noncreature" so it doesn't prevent your Fiend or Spell Queller.

Edit: but it does stop Evoke Solitude, so you have to deal with a 2/2.
Spell Queller can exile uncounterable Lavinia, but Otawara/Pyroblast can remove Spell Queller to return the 2/2.
Against both decks they can remove your Queller, then your 1/1 loses to a 2/2.
LL 0-6?

Nice hate deck! I was toying with some Solitude + Spell Queller deck but did not find something as good, so I just played Jace.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-01-2022, 03:45 PM

Do you all have a list of best combos you're using?
This is the second time it looks like you all knew something I didn't.

Wrath of Pie

11-01-2022, 03:55 PM

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures WW - I think you got too cute trying to be uncounterable and should have just jammed Assassin's Trophy.
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta DD - Luckily, Sunken Ruins is a land so I can Pyroblast Lavinia the permament.
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor - LL
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens - WW
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare - DD - Loxodon Smiter did do something!
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity - LL
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller - LL
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant - WW - Painter's Servant making everything blue does mean my Pyroblast is relevant.
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City - WD - Ooh, another Lavinia to destroy! Too bad that I can't cast Jace and Smiter afterwards on the draw.
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries - LL
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast - LL

7w5d = 26 points

It might have been better to just jam Lotus. On the other hand, I keep playing cards that will be banned but not averaging above 3, so I must be doing something right.

dte

11-01-2022, 05:14 PM

I think you lose here. Otawara bounces Jace. Cavern makes Lavinia uncounterable (cannot Pyroblast or Veto). You cannot Pyroblast on the battlefield either (Lavinia ability), so the 2/2 kills you. LL?

True, I lose both.

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
.. .
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City - WW - Ooh, another Lavinia to destroy!

In your case I think you WD: if you Pyroblast Lavi, you cannot cast both loxodon and Jace. Otawara takes care of the other.

FTW

11-01-2022, 05:17 PM

In your case I think you WD: if you Pyroblast Lavi, you cannot cast both loxodon and Jace. Otawara takes care of the other.

Edit: dte is right. I missed that the deck has anti-synergy.

dte

11-01-2022, 05:33 PM

Sunken Ruins taps for 1 to cast Loxodon on turn 2. Jace and Loxodon can't be cast on the same turn, that's all.

It does not contradict what I wrote:
Loxodon cost WG + ruins. Jace costs 1UB + ruins. Pyroblast costs R. You cannot cast both loxodon and Jace if you have to Pyroblast. So WD.

Dooey

11-01-2022, 06:11 PM

9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures

You can't use megaliths until you use boseiju. You can't use boseiju before I play servant, or I servant + blast your megaliths. So we stare. DD, 2 points, 2 total.

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter

~~I name non-blue with servant, pyroblast jace, snapback smiter, beat down with 1/3. WW, 6 points, 8 total.~~

blast still counters snapback. LL, 0 points, 2 total

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta

Can't stop 3/3 lavinia, can't interact once it's down, can't block it once it's down. LL, 0 points, 2 total.

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor

You chant, I force, you blast, you short, you beat down with arbor. LL, 0 points, 2 total.

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens

I think I can hold you to 6 goblins by blasting twister and forcing regrowth. That leaves us staring. DD, 2 points, 4 total.

6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare

I can't stop sire. LL, 0 points, 4 total.

7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity

I can never win because I can't defend painter. I also can't stop dryad. LL, 0 points, 4 total.

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller

Agree with you, DD, 2 points, 6 total.

9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant

It me.

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City

Can't counter or bounce lavinia, but I can cast painter twice and then block it forever. DD, 2 points, 8 total.

11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries

Can't beat 2 counters. LL, 0 points, 8 total.

12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast

I think it's a bit more complicated than you indicate since I can hard cast snapback, but in the end we each have 2 interactive spells and you have a faster wincon. LL, 0 points, 8 total.

GoblinSmashmaster

11-01-2022, 06:42 PM

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Thassa, the Planeswalker"

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
Tabernacle :( 0-6

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
Jace :( 0-6

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
Lavinia savages me :( 0-6

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
Goblin smash! 6-0

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
That's me still on Goblin combo!

6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
Sire :( 0-6

7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
Goblin smash! 6-0

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
Goblin stare 1-4

9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
Goblin stare 2-2

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
Goblin smash, then Lavinia 3-3

11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Jace :( 0-6

12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
Jace :( 0-6

Total: 18 points

Symbi

11-01-2022, 06:49 PM

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures

I can't interact with this. LL 0-6, 0 total

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter

Orim's chant, then short. WW 6-0, 6 total

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta

If you cast savage summoning I have Orim's chant and if you cast Lavinia without savage I have pyroblast. I can, on my turn, cast Orim's chant. You must then respond with savage + Lavinia or you will get shorted. Then I let the stack resolve and play dryad arbor (which you can't kill as you're silenced). I then blast Lavinia as dryad arbor is a land so I can get around the restriction, then short. WW 6-0, 12 total

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor

That's me!

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens

Short, blast timetwister, and chant in response to regrowth and you never have the mana to cast empty. WW 6-0, 18 total

6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare

Mana short (and void snare does nothing). WW 6-0, 24 total

7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity

I can't beat leyline. LL 0-6, 24 total

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller

Short, pay for chancellor, blast queller, get stopped by solitude. DD 2-2, 26 total

9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant

Chant forces force. I then blast force and short while protected by silence. WW 6-0, 32 total

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City

Dryad arbor lets me blast Lavinia while it is on the battlefield. If you bounce Lavinia with Otawara, you must use your starting blue for that, then you must have used your starting white to cast Lavinia and you won't have the mana to recast Lavinia. WW 6-0, 38 total

11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries

I cast Orim's chant. If you veto, I have pyroblast for Jace. If you don't veto, I short you. WW 6-0, 44 total

12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast

Chant forces queller, then I blast it and short protected by chant. WW 6-0, 50 total

Symbi

11-01-2022, 07:02 PM

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
You have to choose between blasting my Queller or shorting me. 2/3 Beats 1/1 and 1/1 beats nothing either way. WW 6-0

Objection! I have the mana to do both, even with the chancellor tax.

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
Goblin smash! 6-0

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
That's me still on Goblin combo!

Objection! You never have the mana to cast empty because of short and chant in response to regrowth.

FTW

11-01-2022, 07:02 PM

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
Goblin smash! 6-0

Disagreement. I think Symbi is right.

After Mana Short you can still go Lotus -> Regrowth -> Lotus -> Empty for 8 goblins, dodging Pyroblast. But Orim's Chant in response to Regrowth stops you. You have to pass the turn, lose 1 mana, then next turn all you can do is Lotus -> Twister into Pyroblast. LL 0-6

silkster

11-01-2022, 07:58 PM

I did not realize the deadline was one hour earlier for me, but l guess it is these few weeks on which North America is still in Summer and Europe thinks it is Winter already.
It's just this one week. Our daylight time change is this coming Saturday.

I thought the exact opposite, that everyone would play it, and how to beat it and the decks that beat it. But then I decided to take the same advise as FTW:

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
6-0. Pyroblast your jace, veto your pyroblast, do not care about the elephant.
It was at this moment that I realized that Jace doesn't have to wait a turn to win.

I dont get it, Bosejiu the leyline and win?

4 dogs seem to agree with this line
Oh, duh. I was so disappointed that Boseiju wasn't looking the things I thought it would that I forgot it was useful here. And I was so set on playing Boseiju that I didn't think of Otawara.

FTW

11-01-2022, 08:09 PM

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
6-0. Pyroblast Lavi, veto pyroblast.
18

I was trying to figure out how you win while I lose. I think you lose too.

You cannot Pyroblast Lavi on the stack (uncounterable) or on the battlefield (Lavi ability). After T0 Lavi, you can never play Lotus or Jace. LL 0-6?
I can only interact because of Spell Queller, but my Queller dies to Pyroblast or Vendetta.

silkster

11-01-2022, 09:23 PM

Do you all have a list of best combos you're using?
This is the second time it looks like you all knew something I didn't.

I'm not sure what combos you're referring to. Do you just mean Jace, Wielder of Mysteries himself? A good place to start is ban lists from other seasons, which you can find in post 2 of Asthereal's thread.

RoosterCocoa

11-01-2022, 11:33 PM

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
Two lands beats Tabernacle. WW

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
OTP I get Lavinia into play. However, pytting your Sunken Ruins into play allows you to cast Pyroblast, so you kill it, leaving you with the 4 nonred mana floating. I then bounce whichever threat you play. With your Sunken Ruins, you can get to 6 mana over 2 turns, which means you can't cast anything past your first threat since everything but double Loxodon costs too much, and you can't get double green or white. OTD you play one threat, I bounce it, and then you play your other which I can't beat. DL

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
I bounce your Lavinia and play mine. WW

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
Dryad Arbor lets you kill Lavinia with Pyroblast, and I can't do anything useful with Otawara. LL

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
OTP you can't do anything with Lavinia in play, OTD I can't beat your goblins. WL

6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare
I can bounce Sire of Insanity if you play it and you can't play it twice, Orim's Chant does nothing because of my Leyline, and you can't cast Void Snare to bounce Lavinia. WW

7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
I bounce your Dryad and then you can't beat Lavinia. WW

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
My leyline means that Mesmeric Fiend can't take anything from me, and you can't evoke Solitude with Lavinia in play. I play Lavinia, paying for Chancellor. If you Spell Queller Lavinia, then I bounce Spell Queller with Otawara, getting Lavinia back, and then you don't have the colors to recast it. Lavinia then races your Mesmeric Fiend. WW

9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
You can't use your noncreature spells, but Lavinia can't get past Painter's Servant. DD

11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
If you play Jace, I bounce it with Otawara, and you can't cast anything once Lavinia is in play. WW

12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
OTP you play Jace, I bounce it, and then you play Spell Queller which outraces Lavinia. OTD I start by playing Lavinia, and you Spell Queller it. I can bounce it, but then the recast Lavinia is not uncounterable anymore, so you can Pyroblast it and win with Jace. LL

14W 3D 5L = 45

A very good result considering I forgot that Jace and Spell Queller existed when coming up with the list. I chose Otawara since I really wanted an uncounterable way to beat both creature and artifact wincons, and got lucky that it hits planeswalkers too.

FTW

11-02-2022, 01:32 AM

Do you all have a list of best combos you're using?
This is the second time it looks like you all knew something I didn't.

Just experience from past seasons. Many of us have played together a while. Others probably played elsewhere (Reddit?).

Every season Thassa/Lab Man either start banned or define round 1. Black Lotus and Chancellor of the Annex also dominate early. The starting WBURG mana adds a twist to alter viability of threats and answers, shaking up the format. Jace gets easier to cast so 4-mana Thassa is still good. Some WBURG hate strategies came up in a past Deviant season (Lavinia, Mana Short, Tabernacle), so they were known tech.

Past seasons and banlists are publicly available... if you have the patience to go through the old thread.

Wrath of Pie

11-02-2022, 01:50 AM

I played CB well before Reddit was even really a thing, back when the classic Lotus/Balance/Rack was even dumber than it is now. Didn't help that people thought Dodecapod did things against it (it didn't).

Asthereal

11-02-2022, 06:45 AM

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
6-0. Pyroblast Lavi, veto pyroblast.

11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
You can't counter Lavi, as I Savage Summon her, and after she resolves, you can't cast Pyroblast anymore, so that won't work.

Asthereal

11-02-2022, 07:09 AM

Asthereal's results for round 2:

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures LL
I gave up this matchup.
2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter DD
Uh.. Ruins allows you to cast Pyro on Lavi, then I get to Pyro your Jace or Vendetta your Smiter. Either way we draw.
3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta <- me
Many different ideas again, this time I was in time to realize that my original deck was again sorcery speed, and would be bad, so I chose this instead. Vulnerable, but very fast.
4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor LL
EDIT: Actually I was wrong here. If you start with Mana Short, I can Pyroblast it, which you can't do anything about and doesn't help you. You have to keep Chant up and use it well. If you allow me Summoning in Lavi and then play Arbor to allow yourself to Pyroblast-destroy my Lavi, you open yourself up to Vendetta on Arbor, but if you take any other route, you die. So you need Chant to protect Arbor from Vendetta AND Mana Short from Pyroblast, or you lose/draw, depending.
OTD I have to wait, as you casting Chant in response to Summoning is bad. On your main phase, you Chant, I respond by Summoning in Lavi. Chant resolves, I can't cast stuff anymore this turn. You now play Arbor, which allows you to cast Pyroblast (you have a land now), which you do in order to destroy my Lavi. This opens up your final play: Mana Short, in order to get rid of my black mana. You have to do all this in your turn, as I have no answer now (Chant), so OTD I lose anyway.
OTP if you Mana Short on my upkeep, I Pyroblast it. If you Chant, I respond by Summoning in Lavi. You can't play Arbor yet, as it is my turn, so neither helps you just yet. You wait. I go to my main phase. You still wait. Main phase I can't cast Summoning, as you'll respond by casting Chant, and after that resolves you can safely go for Mana Short. But I can try to cast Lavi as is. You respond by first casting Chant, and then countering Lavi with Pyroblast. Then you use Mana Short to drop my final mana and prevent Vendetta again. Arbor would still win. So I have to wait. But if I pass, we get the line OTD. So yeah, I still lose both, but not because of what I posted earlier.
5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens WW
First upkeep I make Lavi and you can't cast the business.
6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare WL
You can use Chant to respond to Summoning, but OTP I can just cast Lavi normally and win. OTD though, you get to have Sire and just win.
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity WW
First upkeep I uncounterably make Lavi and you can't cast things.
8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller WW
I can pay extra B for Chancellor and Pyroblast-counter Queller, but Lavi only stops noncreature stuff, and so you get to Solitude Lavi and then cast a 1/1 to kill me.
EDIT: Actually, you spend no mana to cast Solitude, so that gets countered, and my 3/3 beats the 1/1 Fiend. That's lucky.
9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant WW
First upkeep I uncounterably make Lavi and you can't cast things.
10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City LL
You can bounce Lavi, and make your own which I can't counter and afterwards can't destroy as I have no lands.
11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries WW
First upkeep I uncounterably make Lavi and you can't cast your relevant things.
12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast WW
First upkeep I make Lavi, which you can try to Queller, but I can Pyroblast-counter, so you don't get to use the shenanigans. After Lavi enters the battlefield, you can't cast things anymore.

Total: 41 points

Reeplcheep

11-02-2022, 09:36 AM

Several matchups of mine were wrong since I forgot I don’t have the colours to hardcast solitude. I’ll go back and fix.

Do you all have a list of best combos you're using?
This is the second time it looks like you all knew something I didn't.

This is the link to the previously banned cards:
Banlist

Wrath of Pie

11-02-2022, 10:19 AM

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter DD
Uh.. Ruins allows you to cast Pyro on Lavi, then I get to Pyro your Jace or Vendetta your Smiter. Either way we draw.
Curse my lack of mana again!

(Loxodon Smiter let me down, no one played discard other than jfb1337 to make it look good.)

Asthereal

11-02-2022, 10:32 AM

Curse my lack of mana again!

(Loxodon Smiter let me down, no one played discard other than jfb1337 to make it look good.)
Yeah, sad days: you're a mana short. Ruins plus WG casts Smiter, R casts Pyro, and now you have UB left, but you need one more (plus the use of Ruins) to cast Jace.
As to the discard: I had discard sent in, but realized it was sorcery speed again, and I didn't feel like that would do me any good just yet. You'd have murdered that deck. :laugh:

Thing about the one mana is: if you solve it with Basking Rootwalla, you run into the issue that you now perhaps draw against discard decks, who'd have Walla as wincon and you now trade instead of just beat.
I guess you needed a cheaper second wincon than Jace. Dryad Arbor plus Lab Man would have been extremely funny here, but the Lab dude got the axe last round. Also, it's too slow against Jace.. :rolleyes:

silkster

11-02-2022, 12:44 PM

Asthereal's results for round 2:

6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare WL
You can use Chant to respond to Summoning, but OTP I can just cast Lavi normally and win. OTD though, you get to have Sire and just win.
7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity WW
First upkeep I uncounterably make Lavi and you can't cast things.
Lavinia stops neither Lotus into Sire nor Old-Growth Dryads. Ah, but Vendetta catches the Dryads and Lavinia protects the Vendetta from the Veto.

Symbi

11-02-2022, 12:46 PM

Lavinia stops neither Lotus into Sire nor Old-Growth Dryads.

Objection! Lavinia will counter Lotus as no mana will be spent to cast it. You are correct about Dryads, however. Edit: Lavinia being unable to stop dryads doesn't matter.

Asthereal

11-02-2022, 01:36 PM

Objection! Lavinia will counter Lotus as no mana will be spent to cast it. You are correct about Dryads, however. Edit: Lavinia being unable to stop dryads doesn't matter.
Yeah, Lavinia is incredible in this format. I forgot who came up with her during the Deviant Legacy seasons, but that was an amazing find.

silkster

11-02-2022, 02:06 PM

Yeah, Lavinia is incredible in this format. I forgot who came up with her during the Deviant Legacy seasons, but that was an amazing find.

Oh, the second cause stopping Lotus, not even because it was cheated out. Cute.

I remember finding Lavinia and then deciding against it (probably mistakenly). It was dte who found Lavinia and had the wisdom to play it.

I put in scores for jfb1337, and I highlighted the cards that will be banned. Tabernacle and Boseiju survive by a margin of ε.

It looks like the newly banned cards will be:

Black Lotus
Cavern of Souls
Dovin's Veto
Dryad Arbor
Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
Leyline of Sanctity
Mana Short
Orim's Chant
Otawara, Soaring City
Pyroblast
Savage Summoning
Spell Queller
Vendetta

For now, I've updated just the spreadsheet. You should be able to start planning your decks now. I'll lock in the bans likely in about 32 hours.

Looks like Symbi and dte are already starting to separate from the pack. I'm just barely holding onto third. For two weeks now, as I see the decks rolling in, I've looked at Symbi's entry and I just see WW and wonder what Symbi was thinking being so vulnerable to exactly what I'm doing. Well, it seems I've managed to target the best deck each week. Maybe one of these days I'll actually play it instead.

jfb1337

11-03-2022, 10:47 AM

Sorry I'm late with my scores; been a bit busy.

6. jfb1337: Black Lotus, Sire of Insanity, Orim's Chant, Void Snare

1. silkster: Gruul Turf, Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures
WD - I can sire, but OTD it dies to tabby.

2. Wrath of Pie: Sunken Ruins, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Pyroblast, Loxodon Smiter
DD - Smiter trades with sire

3. Asthereal: Savage Summoning, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Pyroblast, Vendetta
WL - OTP I play lotus, then chant; you lavinia in response (else any earlier and a chant in response to summoning); but 6/4 beats 2/2. OTD I can't stop lavinia.

4. Symbi: Orim's Chant, Mana Short, Pyroblast, Dryad Arbor
LL - You mana short me

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Timetwister, Regrowth, Empty the Warrens
WW - Chant stops your combo and I win

7. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Dovin's Veto, Sudden Edict, Old-Growth Dryad, Leyline of Sanctity
LL - Can't chant due to leyline; you edict the sire and veto the void snare

8. Reeplcheep: Chancellor of the Annex, Mesmeric Fiend, Solitude, Spell Queller
LL - I don't have the mana to do everything. You'll always end up with queller in play and sire solituded

9. Dooey: Force of Will, Snapback, Pyroblast, Painter's Servant
WW - OTP I chant then sire. OTD you play painter, then I void snare it, chant, and sire; you don't have enough interaction to stop it all.

10. RoosterCocoa: Cavern of Souls, Leyline of Sanctity, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Otawara, Soaring City
LL - Otawara bounces sire and you can play lavinia.

11. dte: Black Lotus, Dovin's Veto, Pyroblast, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries
WL - OTP I chant then sire. OTD I can't stop jace.

12. FTW: Black Lotus, Jace, Wielder of Mysteries, Spell Queller, Pyroblast
WL - OTP I chant then sire. OTD I can't stop jace.

Total: 8W3D = 27
Looks to be in agreement with everyone else.

silkster

11-03-2022, 10:58 PM

Looks to be in agreement with everyone else.
Great! I've updated the banlist in the spreadsheet and in the second post. I'm not opening the round yet, but your can start your brewing.

silkster

11-06-2022, 02:27 PM

ROUND 3 OF SEASON 14: WUBRG is now open.

After a bit of Halloween delay, I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 3, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is 6950475ee6a8f0f58e8231dc59988fe509d8936ec3dd2a63cc03b492977c9f97.

DEADLINE: Tuesday November 8st at 1:00pm Eastern Daylight Standard Time (GMT-5). Note that North America just changed their clocks for daylight.

PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows:

silkster: Black Lotus, Ball Lightning, Bloodlust, Berserk. (Note: Black Lotus is now banned. Don't send this deck anymore.)

So with name, colon, and card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S14R03 in the topic.

Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33800-4-Card-Blind-The-Silkster-Seasons&p=1102334&viewfull=1#post1102334) and in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit?usp=sharing). Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy listbuilding! :smile:

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-07-2022, 05:23 PM

name and 4CB S14R03
YOURNAME: CARD, CARD, CARD, CARD.

silkster

11-08-2022, 01:05 PM

Hi folks. My morning things went a bit long, but I see that I have 15 messages, which is hopefully everyone, so I should be posting lists in a few minutes.

name and 4CB S14R03
YOURNAME: CARD, CARD, CARD, CARD.

Indeed, including your name saves me from typing out each name. I'm not sure what php code means exactly, though.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-08-2022, 01:09 PM

Hi folks. My morning things went a bit long, but I see that I have 15 messages, which is hopefully everyone, so I should be posting lists in a few minutes.

Indeed, including your name saves me from typing out each name. I'm not sure what php code means exactly, though.

it means you can add it to your post and we can copy it without quotinng

silkster

11-08-2022, 01:13 PM

Season 14: Round 3 Lists

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply
2. jfb1337: Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane Denial
3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sneak Attack
6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, Void Rend
9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance

Hashed entry: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply, too many choices AHHH!

Link to Round 3 in the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit#gid=1143392308

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-08-2022, 01:33 PM

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply
0-2

2. jfb1337: Elvish spirit guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane denial
0-0-2

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
0-0-2

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
0-1-1

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the aeons torn, sneak attack
0-2

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
0-2

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
0-0-2

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightend Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, void rend
That's a deck. Bonus Forest Time

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
0-1-1

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
0-0-2

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
0-2

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
0-0-2

12

silkster

11-08-2022, 01:39 PM

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply

2. jfb1337: Elvish spirit guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane denial
WL. Neither can stop the other's turn 1.

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
WW. I play Stage + Fiend and remand the Trophy so that I can always catch it.

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
WW. On the play, I grab the Diamond and remand the Wheel, then beat the zombies. On the draw, I bounce Wheel if you go for it and I bounce the Floorboards if you try for X>3. Then I have 4 turns before you can do stuff again during which I can get 2 attacks.

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the aeons torn, sneak attack
WL. Can't stop Inquiry twice, but on the play I can Fiend the Inquiry and bounce the Sneak.

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
WW. I don't even bother trying to cast spells. I had to read Mardu Charm. I had no idea whether I was going to win this one when I saw just the list.

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
DL. On the play, I lead on Fiend while paying for Chancellor. If you don't counter, I take your Solitude and win. If you do counter, I can then bounce your Smiter for a draw. On the draw, you play Smiter and smash because I can't use all my cards and pay Chancellor tax.

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightend Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, void rend
WW. Void Rend is no matter to me.

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
WW. Bouncing the Burning Inquiry strands cards in your hand.

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
LL. Stupid Boseiju's showing up at the end. I was 1 point away from banning it last round.

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
LL. I was so close to playing an anti-Boseiju card, though I'm still not sure if it would have been better overall. I'm not sure if you already knew, but I'm a big fan of this deck.
(Edit: looks like playing an anti-Boseiju card wins me 12 points here and only costs me 7 points against jfb1337, dte, and Asthereal.)

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
For a while I thought you couldn't win because my mental model of Restore Balance is "players discard their hands", but you can hold Ertai until afterward. Which is funny because if there's any deck that I would say is "my deck" it would be Gemstone Mine + Restore Balance.
But if I just hold the counter for Ertai, then you can't make a threat. DD?

12W, 3D, 7L = 39

I found choosing a deck this week very difficult. I could think of 4 win conditions that I thought would see play, ruled out 2 pretty quickly, then waffled between the last two and also what other cards the last two would play. I eventually settled on Depths figuring that Trophy really should be better than Boseiju most of the time. The only deck I predicted was Barren Glory, though I didn't expect the other half to be Nether Spirit. In fact, I forgot about Nether Spirit altogether. The other decks I was expecting didn't show up at all, and instead it was this total chaos, which is great!

Also, thanks for the php code. I'll include that or something close when I open the next round.

Reeplcheep

11-08-2022, 01:57 PM

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
With the 2 leylines banned I thought it was time for discard to come out of hiding. Also this is also the only time I’ll ever get to T0 Thoughtseize.

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply
I did not expect marit lage with how much solitude had already been played. LL 0-6

2. jfb1337: Elvish spirit guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane denial
No targets for sprite. WL 3-3

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
OTP I get both your spells. OTD you can trophy sprite to force through elixir. So in response to elixir I charm your trophy, then counter it and win the race with hardcast grief. WW 6-0

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Discard your wheel, counter your LED. WW 6-0

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the aeons torn, sneak attack
OTP I take everything. OTD I counter burning and charm if you cast sneak attack. If you don’t sneak a 1/1 goblin won’t win the race as I can hardcast the 3/2. I can’t charm emrakul. Grief your inquiry and then trade faerie for goblin. WD 4-1

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
Lapse trades with grief, charm trades with smiter. DD 2-2

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightend Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, void rend
Leyline is banned I believe. WW 6-0?

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
Charm in response to show and tell, sprite inquiry. My evasion is clutch. WW 6-0.

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
i can’t beat tabernacle + LD. LL 0-6

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Same. LL 0-6

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
Spellstutter balance. If you counter it with ertai, ertai dies to balance. If you don’t, mardu charm kills him. I don’t think I can win however. DD 2-2

10 W 5 D 7 L for 35/66.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-08-2022, 02:03 PM

6. Reeplcheep8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: [cards]Isao, Enlightend Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, void rend
Leyline is banned I believe. WW 6-0?

cool

This means I beat you on the draw and lose on the play, because the rules say I get to replace the leyline with a land.

dte

11-08-2022, 02:05 PM

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply
1-4, OTP you have to fail BI, then play fiend, and you lack 1 mana for stage.
1
First MU already wrong!
3-3.

2. jfb1337: Elvish spirit guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane denial
0-6
1

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
6-0: play or draw do not matter as your lands come into play tapped. It costs you 3 of the 5 initial manas to shuffle, while I pay inquiry with my land.
7

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
6-0. The mirror! my kill is faster.
13

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the aeons torn, sneak attack
Me, thinking karakas, tabernacle-bosejiu and wheel deck where what would see play.

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
1-4. OTD grief, OTP If you charm my attack, I attack with den. If you dont, I play it and win.
14

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
6-0. you get an elephant, but I get a bigger beast.
20

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightend Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, void rend
6-0. BI does not target.
26

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
6-0. BI mirror, or sneak vs show. If you show, I get emrakul and anihilate the glory. So I can play BI.
32

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
6-0. I metagamed against that.
38

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Between 2-2 and 6-0. I have absolutely no clue how we shuffle our libraries and what is the obtained order. We have to shuffle them in a way that is most detrimental to each of us. Somehow it would make sense to me that as the active player when we resolve BI I order mine first, but that is also what arranges me the most :D
I will leave that to the forum.
2-2 is the most likely though.
2-2. If you ever play grove, I anyhilate it, and you bosejiu my sneak attack.
However I am very curious about the rules regarding "simultaneous" shuffling. Here it is not simultaneous, the two triggers go on the stack, APNAP means your library is ordered first, then mine.

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
6-0, I you do not Ertai BI, I win. If you do, I win.
48 I think.

Reeplcheep

11-08-2022, 02:06 PM

TBF I waited to play this deck specifically until both Leyline of sanctity and Leyline of Anticipation were banned. It does suck to get dq’d for this stuff but that’s inevitable in a bannathon.

Edit:

This means I beat you on the draw and lose on the play, because the rules say I get to replace the leyline with a land.
I can at least charm you T0 for the draw. Working it out: If you go first, I let you make your 2/1. I grief exiling charm, stacking the evoke trigger on the bottom. If you let me take rend or cast it doesn’t matter, either way I get it back with rebirth. Then evasive 3/2 and 1/1 beats 2/1.

How do you cast Sprite and Charm and Grief?
Fixed above

silkster

11-08-2022, 02:09 PM

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
With the 2 leylines banned I thought it was time for discard to come out of hiding. Also this is also the only time I’ll ever get to T0 Thoughtseize.

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
OTP I get both your spells. OTD you can trophy sprite to force through elixir. So in response to elixir I charm your trophy, then counter it and win the race with hardcast grief. WW 6-0
How do you cast Sprite and Charm and Grief?

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Discard your wheel, counter your LED. WW 6-0
I though that GoblinSmashmaster could hold on to the LED and then you can't play the Sprite, but in that case you'll have time to evoke Grief. Nice.

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightend Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, void rend
Leyline is banned I believe. WW 6-0?
Noooo, I missed this! On the plus side, was Leyline protecting against anything this round?

TBF I waited to play this deck specifically until both Leyline of sanctity and Leyline of Anticipation were banned. It does suck to get dq’d for this stuff but that’s inevitable in a bannathon.
No DQ though. Just can't play the Leyline. I think our default rule replaces it with a basic land of your choice (which is awkward because it might actually help against Tabernacle, which I was aware of but just kinda hoped it wouldn't matter...).

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-08-2022, 02:10 PM

Noooo, I missed this! On the plus side, was Leyline protecting against anything this round?

The discard deck.
But getting to replace the land (and I'm checking now) means I get to beat the tabernacle decks.

dte

11-08-2022, 02:12 PM

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply
0-2

2. jfb1337: Elvish spirit guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane denial
0-0-2

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
0-0-2

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
0-1-1

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the aeons torn, sneak attack
0-2

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
2-0

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
0-0-2

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightend Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, void rend
That's a deck.

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
0-0-2

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
0-2

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
0-2

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
0-0-2

17
0

I believe you win or draw some MUs, e.g Dooey, Asthereal or FTW, even without leyline.
So it is sad, but not 0.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-08-2022, 02:17 PM

I believe you win or draw some MUs, e.g Dooey, Asthereal or FTW, even without leyline.
So it is sad, but not 0.

My score actually goes up 1 point.

Dooey

11-08-2022, 02:31 PM

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply

On the play I lead inquiry. If you let it resolve, you lose to spirit. If you failure, I show and tell and win with glory.
On the draw, you lead on a land. If I show and tell, you put in the other land, make marit lage, and kill me before I untap with glory. If I inquiry, you failure and I'm in the same position. WL, 3 points, 3 total.

2. jfb1337: Elvish spirit guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane denial

Denial counters inquiry, karn exiles barren glory. LL, 0 points, 3 total.

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy

Inquiry beats you on the play and draw. WW, 6 points, 9 total.

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Bad week to bring show and tell. LL, 0 points, 9 total.

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the aeons torn, sneak attack

Bad week to bring show and tell. LL, 0 points, 9 total.

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm

Sprite beats inquiry charm beats show and tell. LL, 0 points, 9 total.

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter

On the play I lead inquiry and pay the tax. If you let it resolve, you get a smiter, but I can chump block it forever. If you lapse it, I show and tell and win with glory. On the draw you can cast smiter first but otherwise same. DD, 2 points, 11 total.

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightend Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, void rend

On the play I win with inquiry. On the draw you can get your threat out and beat barren glory with void rend, but I can still recur nether spirit and block forever. WD, 4 points, 15 total.

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit

It me. 15 total.

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit

Boseiju beats barren glory so I'm off that plan. On the play, I inquiry and our spirits bounce off each other forever. (or you hold tabernacle, and neither of us can pay). On the draw, you get to play a land of your choice before I strip the rest with inquiry, but none of them change the result. DD, 2 points, 17 total.

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Bad week to bring show and tell. LL, 0 points, 17 total.

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance

Ertai can counter inquiry or show and tell but not both, I win with whichever isn't countered. WW, 6 points, 23 total.

Dooey

11-08-2022, 02:39 PM

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
WW. Bouncing the Burning Inquiry strands cards in your hand.

When I'm on the play if you bounce inquiry, the coast is clear for me to win with barren glory.

Reeplcheep

11-08-2022, 02:40 PM

If your inquiry is countered, isn’t Spirit stuck in your hand preventing barren glory?

dte

11-08-2022, 02:46 PM

When I'm on the play if you bounce inquiry, the coast is clear for me to win with barren glory.

Also having a permanent prevents you to win. So for instance vs FTW, you cannot win if you reanimate spirit, as Ertai would race it. in several other MUs, I think you do not win or you lose because you do not meet the conditions.
Vs Asthereal, lapse put the card on top of your library, so you draw it again.

jfb1337

11-08-2022, 05:13 PM

2. jfb1337: Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane Denial

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply
WL - OTP karn beats you; OTD fiend beats me.

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
WW - I karn and counter trophy, which you can't replay after shuffling due to having lost a mana source. I restart the game, but have to bounce rot farm back to you; however I then play ESG and counter the trophy.

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
DL - OTP I karn, you exile emrakul (if you exile LED or floorboards you can't do anything; if you exile wheel then I counter LED and you can't do anything). You play wheel to force the counter, then floorboards x=3. Karn then must remove one token going to 7 loyalty, then we're in a loop of you attacking karn and me +ing karn; if you attack me instead then karn gains enough loyalty to win.
OTD you wheel, I counter it, you floorboards for X=3; which karn can't beat.

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sneak Attack
WL - OTP karn +s. Exile sneak attack, emrakul, or den and you can't win; exile inquiry and I counter sneak attack. OTD you sneak attack which I have to counter, then you inquiry, reshuffle, and win.

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
WL - OTP I karn, countering charm if used. OTD you charm to discard, I counter, then you grief ESG and sprite.

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
DD - Karn isn't stoppable, but I can't win after restarting, even with multiple restarts.

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, Void Rend
DD - If I play karn it only exiles the basic that you replace leyline with and gets rended. If you play Isao I karn it.

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
WW - I counter inquiry and play karn.

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
WW - I karn; geir reach only makes me discard the counter. You can keep nether spirit (and boseju) in your grave so Karn can't get them, but then when I restart with geir reach in play I can play karn again and do get nether spirit to restart with again and win.

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
WW - Karn restarts with ulamog.

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
DD - If you balance with Ertai on the stack I counter it, so you balance with Ertai in hand allowing me to keep the counter to counter Ertai.

Total: 11W7D = 40 points.

Edit: Fix FTW matchup.
Edit 2: Fix Asthereal and GoblinSmashMaster matchups.

Dooey

11-08-2022, 05:19 PM

Ah yikes somehow I missed the no cards in hand part of the barren glory condition. Yeah I basically lose all those matchups.

Symbi

11-08-2022, 06:25 PM

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply

I play my Grove and start ticking it up. You have Mesmeric Fiend, but if you cast it you will at some point be forced to tap Thespian's Stage to pay for Tabernacle. Then I can freely remove stage. If you use your combo, I remove depths in response to the sac trigger. Failure to Comply can only stall. WW 6-0, 6 total.

2. jfb1337: Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane Denial

I can't interact with planeswalkers. LL 0-6, 6 total.

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy

You just use trophy on grove and recur village. LL 0-6, 6 total.

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

OTP I play tabernacle. OTD I get Tabernacle in time after shuffling. Edit: Actually this matchup is more complicated than I thought as I didn't account for Emrakul shuffling LED. OTP I still get tabernacle, then you make zombies. You must use LED to do this, so you won't have LED next upkeep. First assume you don't cast wheel. Then depending on how you stack the triggers, floorboards will either shuffle or it won't. If you shuffle floorboards, you will get LED back in four turns. This means that you will need an upkeep cost of four starting mana per zombie. If you make more than one zombie, the additional zombies will never attack unless you lose all your zombies before you get back LED. As without LED, you must pay 1 starting mana for each 2 damage, this is not a winning line. Then you deal ten damage by using starting mana for tabernacle + 2 damage from LED, but the zombie dies before the second LED. If you don't reshuffle floorboards, you get LED back in 3 turns, requiring 3 starting mana per zombie. This means you only have one zombie at that point, and it will die before the second LED, meaning at most 12 damage again. Casting wheel can prevent it from reshuffling, but this costs 3 starting mana. OTD you can floorboards in response to wheel, meaning wheel won't reshuffle and you can have LED to pay for tabernacle once. WL 3-3, 9 total.

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sneak Attack

If you play sneak attack, I take an Emrakul hit but I remove sneak attack after the shuffle. However, you can wait until I play Rushwood Grove then I can't win as I will lose it to annhilator. DD 2-2, 11 total.

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm

Your disruption does nothing and boseiju snipes your only land. WW 6-0, 17 total.

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter

Tabernacle stops you from winning but solitude removes Ulamog. DD 2-2, 19 total.

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, Void Rend

Ulamog just beats this. WW 6-0, 25 total.

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit

If you show and tell barren glory I Boseiju in response to burning inquiry. Then I shuffle and get Tabernacle for spirit and Ulamog. WW 6-0, 31 total.

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit

I Boseiju Geier reach and Tabernacle stops Nether spirit. You Boseiju Grove as anything else loses to Ulamog. DD 2-2, 33 total.

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

That's me, expecting more countermagic than was actually used.

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance

Tabernacle stops Ertai, but if I play grove you suspend Restore balance and I can't get to ulamog. DD 2-2, 35 total.

FTW

11-08-2022, 06:30 PM

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance

Many disagreements. I think people misunderstood my deck.

MAIN PLAN: "Turn 0" Ertai on the stack. Hold priority. Electrodominance X=0. Cast Restore Balance. If Balance resolves, both players lose all cards in hand, creatures and lands (Ertai is hidden on the stack). Then Ertai resolves after.

If that fails, I can try to draw by using Ertai as a counterspell to force Balance through. Or I can suspend Balance and play a creature after (Ertai or SSG). In desperation mode, I can stare with threat of Electrodominance X=4 to both kill a creature and cast Ertai (killing or countering something else).

1. silkster: I can't let you counter Balance, so I hold back Ertai. You can't counter Balance without losing to Ertai, so you let Balance resolve and we each keep 1 card in hand. You keep Failure, then you can counter Ertai. DD 2-2

2. jfb1337: I Electro-Balance, holding back Ertai. You have to let it resolve or Arcane Denial gets countered by Ertai. Balance resolves with 1 card each. You keep the counter for Ertai. DD 2-2

3. Wrath of Pie: Ertai is still on the stack when you must discard Trophy. WW 6-0

4. GoblinSmashmaster: I T0 Electro-Balance keeping back Ertai. If you discard Emrakul, Ertai counters the reshuffle trigger and I win. There is no 1 card you can keep that would beat Ertai and you don't have BB to pay Madness yet. WW 6-0

5. dte: Same as GoblinSmashmaster. I T0 Balance and Ertai counters the reshuffle, but Den can hold off Ertai. If I do nothing, you must also do nothing (otherwise you waste mana, get Emrakul shuffle countered and lose to Ertai). DD 2-2

6. Reeplcheep: I T0 Electro, holding back Ertai. You Spellstutter Balance, I counter with Ertai, then you Mardu Charm to kill Ertai and we draw. DD 2-2

7. Asthereal: The Chancellor tax slows me down enough that I can't present 2 answers to Smiter fast enough before Smiter kills me. LL 0-6

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: T0 Ertai-Electro-Balance. Leyline would not matter since Electrodominance can target me. Ertai is still on the stack when you must discard Void Rend. WW 6-0

9. Dooey: You can't win without Burning Inquiry. If you Burning Inquiry, I counter with Ertai and Ertai kills you. Instead you do nothing to draw. I could Electro-Balance keeping Ertai in hand. Nether Spirit returns on upkeep. Ertai could counter the trigger or destroy it, but it doesn't matter because it keeps coming back, so we still draw. DD 2-2

10. RoosterCocoa: I must Balance to stop your lands, but then Nether Spirit stares at my 3/2. DD 2-2

11. Symbi: I Electro-Balance and counter the Ulamog reshuffle, but you can sandbag Tabernacle to kill Ertai. DD 2-2

32 points (6 wins, 14 draw, 2 loss)

I should have played my other deck. This felt like a Rock-Paper-Scissors round. This can't do better than draw vs Counterspell or Nether Spirit, but is strong against the other stuff that was good against Counterspell. Turns out there was a lot of Counterspell or anti-discard, and my other deck would have gotten more wins (but would have been annihilated by discard).

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-08-2022, 07:00 PM

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, Void Rend

Ulamog just beats this. WW 6-0, 28 total.

Ulamog is too slow on the draw.
You need to to play Grove tapped (1) put 10 counters on it (11) then untap and cast ulamog (12)
I need to cast Isao (1) and attack you 10 times (11).

jfb1337

11-08-2022, 07:22 PM

Ulamog is too slow on the draw.
You need to to play Grove tapped (1) put 10 counters on it (11) then untap and cast ulamog (12)
I need to cast Isao (1) and attack you 10 times (11).

Not if some of the starting mana is used

silkster

11-08-2022, 11:35 PM

Ulamog is too slow on the draw.
You need to to play Grove tapped (1) put 10 counters on it (11) then untap and cast ulamog (12)
I need to cast Isao (1) and attack you 10 times (11).

I deduce from your results and the fact that you say 10 counters here that you plan to block Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, but Symbi is playing Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre which has annihilator.

FTW

11-09-2022, 02:33 AM

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
WW. On the play, I grab the Diamond and remand the Wheel, then beat the zombies. On the draw, I bounce Wheel if you go for it and I bounce the Floorboards if you try for X>3. Then I have 4 turns before you can do stuff again during which I can get 2 attacks.

On the draw:
LED (remand LED is useless).
Wheel using RUW. Hold priority, cracking LED for RRR (Emrakul reshuffle). If you remand Wheel, GoblinSmashmaster can recast it with LED mana! Either way wheel resolves. Discard your hand and draw the library [Emrakul, Floorboard, LED].
Replay LED for BBB -> Floorboards X=3 (Emrakul reshuffle)

Net result: T1 3 zombies and discard your hand.

Seems like WL, like the other turn 1 decks. You can't actually stop the explosive turn 1.

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
For a while I thought you couldn't win because my mental model of Restore Balance is "players discard their hands", but you can hold Ertai until afterward. Which is funny because if there's any deck that I would say is "my deck" it would be Gemstone Mine + Restore Balance.
But if I just hold the counter for Ertai, then you can't make a threat. DD?

Because I Balance at instant speed, I can hide Ertai on the stack so Balance sees 0 cards, 0 creatures and 0 lands - then I resolve a 3/2 that ETB kills anything that made it through. That is my plan A. However if I do that then you remand my Balance, keep your cards, and Marit Lage beats my 3/2.

To prevent that I must Balance keeping Ertai in hand. Then you can't counter Balance (Ertai would counter it), but you get to keep 1 card in hand. You keep Failure // Comply and then can counter my Ertai, so we draw. DD 2-2.

The other decks I was expecting didn't show up at all, and instead it was this total chaos, which is great!

Other decks I expected didn't show up either. This was an interesting round. I wonder what you were expecting...

dte

11-09-2022, 03:12 AM

@FTW:

5. dte: Same as GoblinSmashmaster. I T0 Balance and Ertai counters the reshuffle. Or you Burning Inquiry, I discard 3 (keep Ertai), then Ertai counters your reshuffle. WW 6-0

The one card I keep (you have to keep Ertai for Emrakul trigger) is den, which trade with Ertai.
2-2?

Also vs Asthereal between counter and chancellor I am not sure you win.

Asthereal

11-09-2022, 06:31 AM

Asthereal's results for round 3:

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply WD
OTP I get to dump my stuff. OTD you can Fiend and I have to Lapse it, allowing you to bounce my Smiter for the draw.
2. jfb1337: Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane Denial DD
EDIT: Karn with mana to spare and counter backup I can't stop, but what I can do, is Solitude my own Smiter, at least on the play. OTD I need to cast Lapse, cast Smiter and use Solitude and Chancellor to exile, so OTD you drop Karn asap, and tick him up, and I lose a card I need for my trick. That I lose, but OTP I cast Smiter and say go. You drop Karn, we trade counters and then I Soliture my own guy, which leaves you with no cards exiled by Karn, so you can't win anymore in the restarted game.
EDIT2: See analysis by Fourdogs on the next page. OTP I can still foprce the draw by exiling Smiter to Karn and then evoking Solitude into nothing and letting it die, so I get it back in the restart and can use it to murder my own Smiter. Big brain play for the second draw.
3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy DD
Uh.. a normal deck? Okay I didn't count on that. I hope you do well, this is super techy. Anyway, I don't see anything else than to Solitude your Village for the draws.
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn LL
I've been looking at options, but I haven't found a line yet where I can get a result. Let's leave this at LL.
5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sneak Attack LL
This is a neat deck. You can open with Inquiry, and if I Lapse it, you still have mana to do your thing. Also, your land allows you to cast Inquiry again later on. Can't win this.
6. Reeplcheep: Malakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm DD
You Grief plus paying the Chancellor tax, which I Lapse, and then you are free to Charm my Smiter, but lack mana to cast your Sprite so we draw.
7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter <-me
I got super confused this round and ended up sending in a whatever entry, that at least beat the other deck I had in mind. Anyway, this is underpowered and vulnerable, but might still be decent.
8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, (basic land of choice), Void Rend DD
EDIT: Memory Lapse is great, but not against uncounterable stuff. You have mana to pay for the Chancellor tax, so I Solitude your guy and you Rend mine for draws?
9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit DD
My Smiter beats your Spirit to death every turn forever and ever until all ever eternity.
10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit LL
Hmm, this is interesting. Nacle will eventually kill Smiter, but can you make me discard out of Solitude range before you have to discard Spirit and see it return to the battlefield? Actually no: Spirit says "may". You play your lands and make me discard until I can't Solitude anymore, and only then return Spirit. Smiter doesn't kill you before then even if I use my WURBG mana to pay for Nacle tax, as I'll be on one card well before you die, and you can start returning Spirit and start chumping until I run out of Nacle mana.
11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre DD
More Nacle, but this time you can't stop me from Solituding your threat. Two draws as we both lose our threat.
12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance WW
Your deck costs 6 mana and I impose Chancellor tax, so your standard plan won't work as you can't afford to cast both Dominance and Ertai. So you have to just suspend Restore Balance and hope it's fast enough. It's not - see below. EDIT: FTW agreed on my analysis, and checked a few extra lines which I also end up winning.

Total: 22 points, should be final score. Should. No guarantees though.

Against FTW
F: Sus Balance (6)
A: Cast Smiter
F: (5)
A: Attack, 16
F: (4)
A: Attack, 12
F: (3)
A: Attack, 8
F: (2)
A: Attack, 4
F: (1)
A: Attack, you die.

Reeplcheep

11-09-2022, 08:08 AM

2. jfb1337: Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane Denial

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
WL - OTP I karn, countering charm if used. OTD you charm to discard, I counter, then you grief ESG and sprite.

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
WW - You can't stop karn

I think you are missing some draws, since you can’t have ESG and Karn in play at the same time. Assuming you restarting the game brings back cards exiled not by karn:

Vs asthereal: OTD asthereal casts smiter. Lapse channel, solitude smiter gives you 0 cards to restart the game with. OTP you get a smiter but he can still cast solitude with 0 targets. Esg + counterspell + smiter in play can’t beat solitude plus lapse plus chancellor trigger.
DD

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-09-2022, 08:11 AM

Not if some of the starting mana is used

I deduce from your results and the fact that you say 10 counters here that you plan to block Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, but Symbi is playing Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre which has annihilator.

I forgot about starting mana, because I am so focused on people using it immediately.

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, (basic land of choice), Void Rend WW
Memory Lapse is great. So is Solitude.
Memory Lapse has no text vs me.

Asthereal

11-09-2022, 08:22 AM

Memory Lapse has no text vs me.
Right. That's indeed correct. But then how do I beat you?
You have me winning against you in your post, but if I can't Lapse anything, I only get to Solitude your guy and you get to Charm mine and we stare?

I think you are missing some draws, since you can’t have ESG and Karn in play at the same time. Assuming you restarting the game brings back cards exiled not by karn:

Vs asthereal: OTD asthereal casts smiter. Lapse channel, solitude smiter gives you 0 cards to restart the game with. OTP you get a smiter but he can still cast solitude with 0 targets. Esg + counterspell + smiter in play can’t beat solitude plus lapse plus chancellor trigger.
DD
That's neat. I missed that line.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-09-2022, 08:47 AM

Right. That's indeed correct. But then how do I beat you?
You have me winning against you in your post, but if I can't Lapse anything, I only get to Solitude your guy and you get to Charm mine and we stare?
I have it as a double draw. 0-0-2, Wins-losses-ties.

Reeplcheep

11-09-2022, 08:47 AM

Right. That's indeed correct. But then how do I beat you?
You have me winning against you in your post, but if I can't Lapse anything, I only get to Solitude your guy and you get to Charm mine and we stare?

That's neat. I missed that line.

It changes a bunch of the other matchups analysis but yours was the only one where it changes the result (I believe).

Asthereal

11-09-2022, 09:08 AM

I have it as a double draw. 0-0-2, Wins-losses-ties.
Aaah I misread that as W-D-L. I've seen too many football results lately. Already edited my post for draws, so we're good. :smile:

It changes a bunch of the other matchups analysis but yours was the only one where it changes the result (I believe).
OTP I indeed draw now. OTD I still lose, as I need all my cards for the trick, and I lose one to the Karn tick-up.
I need Lapse to counter Karn and force him to counter back. I need Chancellor to exile to Solitude. I need Solitude to Solitude and I need Smiter to be in play when I do, so I need him too.
Anyway, DL it is. Edited my post.

So all that remains for me is to check with FTW whether my analysis is correct, and to find out what Gobbo's deck does exactly, so I can determine what effect Lapse can have, and whether Smiter is enough for draws.

jfb1337

11-09-2022, 10:58 AM

From the gatherer rulings on Karn:

The player who controlled the ability that restarted the game is the starting player in the new game. The new game starts like a game normally does: Each player shuffles their deck (except the cards left in exile by Karn's ability). Each player's life total becomes 20 (or the starting life total for whatever format you're playing). Players draw a hand of seven cards. Players may take mulligans. Players may take actions based on cards in their opening hands, such as those of Leylines.

Thus, vs Asthereal, OTD they can prevent me from having anything in exile when I restart the game, however I restart OTP and thus am able to exile something to have in play for a second restart, which I win with.

GoblinSmashmaster

11-09-2022, 11:19 AM

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Eldrazi"

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply
Zombie smash, then Fiend 3-3

2. jfb1337: Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane Denial
Zombie smash, then Karn 3-3

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
Zombie smash! 6-0

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
That's me on Zombie combo instead

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sneak Attack
Zombie smash, then Eldrazi smash 3-3

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
Discard :( 0-6

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
Zombie smash! 6-0

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, Void Rend
Zombie smash! 6-0

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
Zombie smash! 6-0

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
Zombie smash, then Tabernacle 3-3

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Zombie smash, then Tabernacle 3-3

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
Ertai :( 0-6

Total: 39 zombie points :eyebrow:

FTW

11-09-2022, 11:37 AM

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
6-0. The mirror! my kill is faster.
dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the aeons torn, sneak attack

You both agree but I am not sure.

GoblinSmash Turn 1 going first:
LED. Wheel using initial RWB, crack LED for BBB in response. Emrakul trigger. Library = {Emrakul, Floorboards, LED}.
Wheel resolves. You discard your hand and draw from empty library. GoblinSmash draws library. Then your Emrakul trigger goes on the stack. dte library = {Emrakul, Sneak Attack, Inquiry, Den}.
LED again. Crack for BBB. Mana pool = BBBBBB + initial UG.
Madness Floorboards X=6. Gain 6 life. Create 6 zombies.

You can't put any bodies on the board for 4 turns, since you need Den to activate Sneak Attack (or Den). 6 zombies kill you before then.

WL 3-3?

Symbi

11-09-2022, 11:37 AM

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
That's me on Zombie combo instead

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Eldrazi smash :( 0-6

Total: 33 points

Objection! OTP you can cast wheel then crack LED for floorboards in response. This means wheel will not reshuffle. I will redraw tabernacle in 4 turns. During your next three turns, you attack for a total of 18 damage, drawing and playing LED on the third. Then on my turn I draw and play tabernacle, but you pay for it with LED and swing for lethal. So this is 3-3.

dte

11-09-2022, 11:43 AM

You both agree but I am not sure.

GoblinSmash Turn 1 going first:
LED. Wheel using initial RWB, crack LED for BBB in response. Emrakul trigger. Library = {Emrakul, Floorboards, LED}.
Wheel resolves. You discard your hand and draw from empty library. GoblinSmash draws library. Then your Emrakul trigger goes on the stack. dte library = {Emrakul, Sneak Attack, Inquiry, Den}.
LED again. Crack for BBB. Mana pool = BBBBBB + initial UG.
Madness Floorboards X=6. Gain 6 life. Create 6 zombies.

You can't put any bodies on the board for 4 turns, since you need Den to activate Sneak Attack (or Den). 6 zombies kill you before then.

WL 3-3?

That is very neat, agree!
Also FTW, what do you think of us going 2-2, as if you keep 1 card to Ertai's Emrakul shuffle, Den trade with Ertai?

Objection! OTP you can cast wheel then crack LED for floorboards in response. This means wheel will not reshuffle. I will redraw tabernacle in 4 turns. During your next three turns, you attack for a total of 18 damage, drawing and playing LED on the third. Then on my turn I draw and play tabernacle, but you pay for it with LED and swing for lethal. So this is 3-3.

Actually also from the above line, Gob can just play 6 gobs T1 while discarding your tabernacle, which simplifies and go 3-3 as well.

FTW

11-09-2022, 11:46 AM

Vs dte I agree DD 2-2. Den attacking once and making a 1/1 is useless. But I forgot Den alone could block once with starting mana, enough to force a stare-off.

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter <-me
12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance WW? <-disagreement, I think
Uh, your deck costs 6 mana and I impose Chancellor tax, so your standard plan won't work as you can't afford to cast both Dominance and Ertai. Right? So you have to just suspend Restore Balance and hope it's fast enough. It's not - see below.

Total: 21 points, plus what I get from the match against Gobbo, which my tired brain can't seem to wrap itself around just yet. Also barring mistakes, of course. :tongue:

Against FTW
F: Sus Balance (6)
A: Cast Smiter
F: (5)
A: Attack, 16
F: (4)
A: Attack, 12
F: (3)
A: Attack, 8
F: (2)
A: Attack, 4
F: (1)
A: Attack, you die.

I can't do my main line due to Chancellor tax. But I have multiple ways to threaten to kill Smiter: Electro-Balance, suspend Balance, or Ertai ETB trigger. I just need one to draw. I can use SSG to pay for Chancellor or chump, paying the 1. There's more than just suspend Balance and hope. Need to think about this more.

Edit: I can't block due to Solitude. If I play SSG to block or gain 2 from Solitude (+1 turn to let Balance resolve), you Memory Lapse it instead. I'll redraw SSG but lack the mana to play it or Ertai, so Smiter kills me before Balance. Instead I could Electro-Balance after Smiter, you Memory Lapse after I pay the Chancellor tax, I can't Ertai back, I redraw and suspend Balance but it's too slow. Or I can suspend Balance, attempt Ertai to destroy Smiter, use SSG to pay Chancellor tax, but then Ertai gets Memory Lapsed and Smiter kills me before Balance resolves. You have too much interaction. LL 0-6

In that case my other deck was better, scoring at least 38 and with more wins and fewer draws. Oh well.

Wrath of Pie

11-09-2022, 01:30 PM

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply - LL
2. jfb1337: Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane Denial - LL
4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - LL
5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sneak Attack - LL - You just loop Inquiry until my hand is empty, then winning is simple enough. If I ever play a permanent, Emrakul annihilates whatever is there.
6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm - WL - On my play, upkeep Mardu Charm to discard Elixir is a losing line, so I cast Elixir. If you cast Mardu Charm to protect Spellstutter, then you don't have enough black mana to cast Grief and I win with Treetop Village beatdown, and if you let Elixir resolve, then I eventually get Elixir loops which you can't outrace.
7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter - DD
8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, Void Rend - WW - Isao is nowhere near impressive enough to stop Elixir loops (although he does indeed become Enlightened, because he dies last to Trophy even if you get to regenerate him a few times), and Void Rend doesn't really stop me.
9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit - WW - You can't expose Barren Glory to Trophy because I get Elixir via Show and Tell, and Elixir lets me recover from Inquiry easily enough.
10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit - WW
11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre - WW
12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance - LL

9w2d = 29 points

I couldn't think of anything clever, and my usual emergency plan of Elspeth is rather bad, so I went with Trophy loops instead.

Reeplcheep

11-09-2022, 01:57 PM

From the gatherer rulings on Karn:

Thus, vs Asthereal, OTD they can prevent me from having anything in exile when I restart the game, however I restart OTP and thus am able to exile something to have in play for a second restart, which I win with.

Smiter plus your hand doesn’t beat asthereal, since esg plus counterspell is 5 mana vs chancellor tax and counterspell.

jfb1337

11-09-2022, 02:10 PM

Smiter plus your hand doesn’t beat asthereal, since esg plus counterspell is 5 mana vs chancellor tax and counterspell.

Ah, good point; so it should be DD.

Also, vs GoblinSmashmaster I should have DL.

silkster

11-09-2022, 04:19 PM

I filled in the sheet as best I could and fixed a few results (mostly just Barren Glory). There's a disagreement between Reeplcheep and Wrath of Pie that could actually change the bannings. The highlighted results are ones that either disagree or that I already changed.

I plan to lock in the bannings either tonight or tomorrow night, and then open round 4 not too long after.

dte

11-09-2022, 04:57 PM

There's a disagreement between Reeplcheep and Wrath of Pie that could actually change the bannings. The highlighted results are ones that either disagree or that I already changed..

WoP line seems right for 3-3 vs Reeplcheep.

silkster

11-09-2022, 08:06 PM

I agree with Wrath of Pie going 3-3 against Reeplcheep, which means that Grief and Mardu Charm live to see the next round.

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit - WL - You can't expose Barren Glory to Trophy on my play because I get to cast Elixir, and Elixir lets me recover from Inquiry easily enough.

Wrath as 3-3 and Dooey has 6-0, but I actually think this is 6-0 for Wrath. If Dooey leads on Inquiry, Elixir and Village will take over. If Dooey leads on Barren Glory, I think the idea was that Wrath would have to keep the Trophy so as not to lose on the spot, but then Inquiry would catch the Elixir. But playing Barren Glory requires casting Show and Tell, and Wrath can put the Elixir into play, then Trophy the Glory and begin recurring everything.

Wrath of Pie

11-09-2022, 10:29 PM

I agree with Wrath of Pie going 3-3 against Reeplcheep, which means that Grief and Mardu Charm live to see the next round.

Wrath as 3-3 and Dooey has 6-0, but I actually think this is 6-0 for Wrath. If Dooey leads on Inquiry, Elixir and Village will take over. If Dooey leads on Barren Glory, I think the idea was that Wrath would have to keep the Trophy so as not to lose on the spot, but then Inquiry would catch the Elixir. But playing Barren Glory requires casting Show and Tell, and Wrath can put the Elixir into play, then Trophy the Glory and begin recurring everything.
Trophy loops are always better than I give credit for, especially when I get Elixir for free.

RoosterCocoa

11-10-2022, 12:21 AM

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit

1. silkster: Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Mesmeric Fiend, Failure // Comply
OTD if you play Stage on your first turn, I destroy it with Boseiju and play Tabernacle to kill your Mesmeric Fiend and win. If you don't play it first, I play Tabernacle, so you have to play it or otherwise you will run out of mana and lose your Mesmeric Fiend. Once you do, I wait for you to tap Stage, either to make Marit Lage or to pay for Tabernacle, then destroy it in response and win. If you never play Mesmeric Fiend, I get my 2/2 and win. WW

2. jfb1337: Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel, Karn Liberated, Arcane Denial
Since you always go first in subgames I can't get a draw. LL

3. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
Can't beat this. LL

4. GoblinSmashmaster: Wheel of Fortune, Lion's Eye Diamond, From Under the Floorboards, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
OTP I have Tabernacle, OTD you overrun me with tokens. WL

5. dte: Den of the Bugbear, Burning inquiry, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Sneak Attack
I can't beat this. LL

6. ReeplcheepMalakir Rebirth, Grief, Spellstutter Sprite, Mardu Charm
Because of Tabernacle you can at most keep a 1/1, which I beat with my 2/2. WW

7. Asthereal: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Memory Lapse, Loxodon Smiter
You can't pay for Tabernacle so you can't win. Nether Spirit is a may, so I keep it in my graveyard until I've made you discard enough that you can't use Solitude. WW

8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, Void Rend
Void Rend only hits nonland permanents, so it is useless, and I have nothing that targets players so Leyline doesn't do anything either. I play Sanitarium and Tabernacle, and use Sanitarium once to get Nether Spirit. You need to play Isao to not lose, and once you do I stop attacking. You need to eventually play City of Traitors to not lose Isao to Tabernacle, so once you do I destroy City with Boseiju and Isao dies to Tabernacle, letting me win with Nether Spirit. WW

9. Dooey: Show and Tell, Barren Glory, Burning Inquiry, Nether Spirit
If you don't Burning Inquiry, I can destroy your Barren Glory. This means we are both left with just a Nether Spirit. DD

11. Symbi: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Rushwood Grove, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
I destroy your Grove, you destroy my Sanitarium, and then neither of us can do anything. DD

12. FTW: Ertai Resurrected, Simian Spirit Guide, Electrodominance, Restore Balance
After Restore Balance, you have a 3/2 and I have a 2/2, so I can't race you but win if you attack. DD

9W 6D 7L = 33

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-10-2022, 07:39 AM

10. RoosterCocoa: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boseiju, Who Endures, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Nether Spirit
8. FourDogsInaHorseSuit: Isao, Enlightened Bushi, City of Traitors, Leyline of Sanctity, Void Rend
Void Rend only hits nonland permanents, so it is useless, and I have nothing that targets players so Leyline doesn't do anything either. I play Sanitarium and Tabernacle, and use Sanitarium once to get Nether Spirit. You need to play Isao to not lose, and once you do I stop attacking. You need to eventually play City of Traitors to not lose Isao to Tabernacle, so once you do I destroy City with Boseiju and Isao dies to Tabernacle, letting me win with Nether Spirit. WW

Leyline, Being Illegal, is actually a forest.
So I have a basic forest you can't Boseiju. Which means I can pay for Tabernacle.

Asthereal

11-10-2022, 08:57 AM

Smiter plus your hand doesn’t beat asthereal, since esg plus counterspell is 5 mana vs chancellor tax and counterspell.
I don't follow.

He needs GG1 for Channel and U1 for Arcane Denial, or U2 for Denial and GG for Channel. Then he pays 7 life to make 7 mana and cast Karn.
So even though I have the Chancellor tax, he still has a mana to spare.

Karn lands, and starts eating my cards in hand. Whether or not I cast Smiter, it'll end up exiled, and when we restart, Smiter will be in play on his side and just kill me in 5 turns.
If I allow him to cast Karn and let him eat my Lapse, he'll have Denial for my Solitude anyway. OTD I don't see how I force the draw.

Reeplcheep

11-10-2022, 10:35 AM

I don't follow.

He needs GG1 for Channel and U1 for Arcane Denial, or U2 for Denial and GG for Channel. Then he pays 7 life to make 7 mana and cast Karn.
So even though I have the Chancellor tax, he still has a mana to spare.

Karn lands, and starts eating my cards in hand. Whether or not I cast Smiter, it'll end up exiled, and when we restart, Smiter will be in play on his side and just kill me in 5 turns.
If I allow him to cast Karn and let him eat my Lapse, he'll have Denial for my Solitude anyway. OTD I don't see how I force the draw.

You can always solitude exiling chancellor plus counterspell in every subgame, so the most he can steal is smiter. If he tries to win you solitude smiter and counter what ever spell he pushes through. ESG is 3 mana so he can’t counter back. If he tries to counter the solitude you counter back and then he is missing a mana to cast ESG.

FTW

11-10-2022, 12:41 PM

Leyline, Being Illegal, is actually a forest.
So I have a basic forest you can't Boseiju. Which means I can pay for Tabernacle.

Did Forest actually gain you more points than Leyline? I don't see many matchups where Leyline would have text.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-10-2022, 12:47 PM

Did Forest actually gain you more points than Leyline? I don't see many matchups where Leyline would have text.

I believe so. There were a lot of lines I thought would draw that actually just kill me so I don't know if the forest did earn me the 1 more point I thought it did.

silkster

11-10-2022, 02:42 PM

You can always solitude exiling chancellor plus counterspell in every subgame, so the most he can steal is smiter. If he tries to win you solitude smiter and counter what ever spell he pushes through. ESG is 3 mana so he can’t counter back. If he tries to counter the solitude you counter back and then he is missing a mana to cast ESG.
The Asthereal v. Karn matchup has been a wild ride. First I thought Karn just won, then the draw line was pointed out, but we (I?) Thought it was only on the play. Then the rule about the playing restarting the game being the starting player was found. But now I see that the chancellor tax means that Karn can only play one of Denial and Guide, so the work always gets denied and the Smiter always lands in solitude. This is just the sound silliness I love in 4cb.

Asthereal

11-11-2022, 06:09 PM

I believe so. There were a lot of lines I thought would draw that actually just kill me so I don't know if the forest did earn me the 1 more point I thought it did.
Doesn't him making me exile one card out of hand just suck up my options in the subgame? I still don't see it.
If I allow him to exile my Smiter, I can't do anything, so he'll exile the rest too and I lose to my own Solitude dude.

Or I'm an idiot. I don't know, I haven't played proper magic in years, but I still don't see it.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-11-2022, 07:00 PM

Doesn't him making me exile one card out of hand just suck up my options in the subgame? I still don't see it.
If I allow him to exile my Smiter, I can't do anything, so he'll exile the rest too and I lose to my own Solitude dude.

Or I'm an idiot. I don't know, I haven't played proper magic in years, but I still don't see it.
I don't think you have to quote me but:
When they go off, they have two mutually exclusive options channel or esg. If they go esg it costs 4 and you counter it, then you'll have smiter. They lose.
So they go for Karn.
If you counter Karn or channel, they'll counter back and karn resolves. Then they plus Karn, your choices are chancellor, solitude, or smiter.
Choose smiter.
On your turn you do nothing. It's fine.
On their turn they plus again. Here you evoke solitude. Your hand is empty. The only way now for either player to do anything is for them to restart the game. You can't stop this.
Now the game is restarted. They only have smiter in play, and you immediately solitude it. They have two options: let it go, or counter it.
If they counter it it will cost them three mana, which will lock them out of spirit guide, you counter back. All of your creatures are safe from Karn, but no one can win the game. Here Karn restarts the game and we go back to where we started.
If they let it go and you exile the smiter they again have their two mutually exclusive options: cast spirit guide, go for Karn.
If they go for guide, it costs four mana and you counter it. They can't counter back and now all threats are locked out.

silkster

11-12-2022, 03:51 AM

The banlist has been updated on the spreadsheet and in the second post. I'll open the round soon.

Asthereal

11-12-2022, 10:34 AM

I don't think you have to quote me but:
When they go off, they have two mutually exclusive options channel or esg. If they go esg it costs 4 and you counter it, then you'll have smiter. They lose.
So they go for Karn.
If you counter Karn or channel, they'll counter back and karn resolves. Then they plus Karn, your choices are chancellor, solitude, or smiter.
Choose smiter.
On your turn you do nothing. It's fine.
On their turn they plus again. Here you evoke solitude. Your hand is empty. The only way now for either player to do anything is for them to restart the game. You can't stop this.
Now the game is restarted. They only have smiter in play, and you immediately solitude it. They have two options: let it go, or counter it.
If they counter it it will cost them three mana, which will lock them out of spirit guide, you counter back. All of your creatures are safe from Karn, but no one can win the game. Here Karn restarts the game and we go back to where we started.
If they let it go and you exile the smiter they again have their two mutually exclusive options: cast spirit guide, go for Karn.
If they go for guide, it costs four mana and you counter it. They can't counter back and now all threats are locked out.

Okay, that line I did not see. These game restarts are weird. DD it is.

silkster

11-14-2022, 02:14 AM

Sorry for the delay. Hopefully people were able to brainstorm over the past few days and won't have issue submitting in just a ~36 hour window.

ROUND 4 OF SEASON 14: WUBRG is now open.

After a bit of Halloween delay, I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 3, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is 7e96d12c0a0eadb6cbc9b029241eaf284aca66d3eb2a2131e8dbbf765b472d81

[B]DEADLINE: Tuesday November 15st at 1:00pm Eastern Standard Time (GMT-5).
PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows:

silkster: Black Lotus, Ball Lightning, Bloodlust, Berserk. (Note: Black Lotus is now banned. Don't send this deck anymore.)

So with name, colon, and card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S14R04 in the topic.

Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33800-4-Card-Blind-The-Silkster-Seasons&p=1102334&viewfull=1#post1102334) and in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit?usp=sharing). Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy listbuilding! :smile:

If I understood correctly, I was to put this here for people to copy paste.

name and 4CB S14R04
YOURNAME: A, B, C, D.

Wrath of Pie

11-14-2022, 09:51 AM

Sorry for the delay. Hopefully people were able to brainstorm over the past few days and won't have issue submitting in just a ~36 hour window.
That is a long time to resolve Brainstorm.

(Also, I can't believe this thread isn't called the silkster Saga.)

silkster

11-14-2022, 10:24 AM

That is a long time to resolve Brainstorm.

(Also, I can't believe this thread isn't called the silkster Saga.)
Hah! My first thought is an upkeep brainstorm before using sylvan library, but then it would be the library trigger that could take forever.

On a side note, if anyone's deck uses an obscure rule or a complicated line, feel free to include it with your submission and I will post it right after the decklists (probably in a separate post so that replying to the decklists post doesn't come with a bunch of other text).

This will hopefully save some confusion. This is inspired by FTW's plan to hide Ertai on the stack last round, which I totally missed but accidentally ended up with the right result anyway.

dte

11-14-2022, 10:44 AM

for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is 7e96d12c0a0eadb6cbc9b029241eaf284aca66d3eb2a2131e8dbbf765b472d81

Given that you make the effort to make something every week, and that you said it is fun, I should ask what this it rather than keep ignoring it?

I tried the url, even putting the long string of characters in what was referred as input, which gave a different long string of characters as an output, but I didn't become any wiser for it.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-14-2022, 10:49 AM

Given that you make the effort to make something every week, and that you said it is fun, I should ask what this it rather than keep ignoring it?

I tried the url, even putting the long string of characters in what was referred as input, which gave a different long string of characters as an output, but I didn't become any wiser for it.

It's a hash: he puts in his list, and a secret (round one, it was "unicycle". This secret is known as a salt. Get it? You're adding salt to your order of hash?) and then the hashing algorithm spits out this random-looking string.
The idea is that while it's easy to create the hash it's impossible to work backwards from the hash to get the original input. Which means every round we can confirm the list they submitted by taking the list and the secret they post at reveal time and it will create the same hash they posted when the round opens.
So you can't do it yet for this round, but if you take their lists from earlier rounds you should be able to see that they didn't cheat and change their list.

silkster

11-14-2022, 11:00 AM

I once took a grad class on cryptography despite having almost no background in computer science, though I had a stronger background in abstract algebra than any of the comp sci students). I learned about RSA and one-way functions and I've never been able to engage with any of it directly, so I'm greatly amused by the opportunity. I expect most people will ignore it, but one or two might be amused. After all, this thread is all about amusement!

dte

11-14-2022, 11:47 AM

OK, thank you both for the explanation!
Will definitely not check it out :)

silkster

11-15-2022, 12:08 AM

We're up to 9 entries now (including my own). Two were illegal, one was corrected just 20-some minutes later, and PM sent to the other. (Technically I sent two PMs to each cause I'm bad at the messaging interface and also because I misread something else.)

Reeplcheep

11-15-2022, 08:24 AM

Sent

silkster

11-15-2022, 08:35 AM

Sent

Nice. Just missing one regular and hopefully one update of an illegal entry, but still over 4 hours to go.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-15-2022, 09:21 AM

Asthereal

11-15-2022, 10:03 AM

It's a hash: he puts in his list, and a secret (round one, it was "unicycle". This secret is known as a salt. Get it? You're adding salt to your order of hash?) and then the hashing algorithm spits out this random-looking string.
The idea is that while it's easy to create the hash it's impossible to work backwards from the hash to get the original input. Which means every round we can confirm the list they submitted by taking the list and the secret they post at reveal time and it will create the same hash they posted when the round opens.
So you can't do it yet for this round, but if you take their lists from earlier rounds you should be able to see that they didn't cheat and change their list.
I feel like this explains it really well, but I had to read it like three times before I somewhat understood what you said. :tongue:

But I'll try it. See if I pass this computational thinking exam.

EDIT: I passed! I got the same string from the hash and I now know what it DOES.
Still don't really know what a hash IS though. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-15-2022, 11:30 AM

Still don't really know what a hash IS though. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

A hash is basically a consistent abbreviation.
A hashing algorithm is how you do that.
A good hashing algorithm makes things smaller, can't be undone, and is collision avoidant. A collision is when two different inputs create the same output. It is, of course, inevitable that some collisions will occur, The only way to have that not happen is to do nothing to the inputs, or transform the inputs in such a way that we can work backwards.

Like a simple hashing algorithm would be to take only the first letter of each cardname.
Which means the list of Forest Island Lightning Bolt Guilded Goose would produce a hash of FILG. It will do this every single time, so anyone can take those four cards and come up with FILG infer the card names, but you can't decide what the original four were. It's also a bad algorithm because you could easily create a collision with any four cards that began with F, I, L and G.

Now to get further into the weeds, because we know how FILG are determined we could actually, using brute force, test every possible configuration. there's only what, a few trillion possible results? (Thousands times thousands, times thousands times thousands?) A machine would eventually figure it out.
But the hashes you actually use are so complicated that figuring them out would require more time than exists before the heat death of the universe.

dte

11-15-2022, 11:46 AM

Now I am very happy I (or we with Asthereal) asked!

Nice and clear explanation about things we hear about since quite some time :/

jfb1337

11-15-2022, 12:23 PM

And to add to that, the salt is an extra random string to make it less predictable - without it then I could try to predict what cards silkster might be playing, or even brute-force many different combinations, put them into the hashing function, and see if the results match their string. Then if they do I'd know what they're playing and maybe try submitting a deck that beats it. But because there's also the salt, an extra random phrase that isn't a card name, I can't actually do that.

silkster

11-15-2022, 12:35 PM

In theory, there are only so many decks that I might play and you might be able to guess it, so that's what the extra random words at the end are for. Actually, even without that it would still be very difficult and impressive to guess it. Each week I think of about 5-10 decks that feel at least somewhat playable to me, and I don't think I've seen an exact four yet. (And you'd have to get the right order too.) For round 3, I could think of five win conditions that people might play, and I figured that they would account for about half the field. All together, one person played one of them, and not a single other card in that deck had been on my radar. I know to expect a few surprises each week, but this season it had been almost all surprises.

I received a legal update and one new submission, but I had misremembered how many decks I should have been expecting (I remembered 11 matches, but that means 12 total entries), so we're still off one at the moment. I know that was me last season, so I certainly understand. 🤪

It's a few minutes past time and still one regular short. I'll probably on the fence about what to do for a little while and then post the lists I have.

FTW

11-15-2022, 01:07 PM

Who's short and do they know? Maybe they/I messaged dte or Asthereal instead!

silkster

11-15-2022, 01:23 PM

Who's short and do they know? Maybe they/I messaged dte or Asthereal instead!

Ooh, good point. Or maybe they replied to the message from Round 3 thinking that it would go to me but instead went back to themself. I made the same mistake the first time I tried to update a deck. It's Dooey, and I've sent a message. Maybe wait an hour or so?

silkster

11-15-2022, 03:35 PM

Asthereal sometimes waited a whole day, but not always, I think. I'm going to go for it and post in 20 minutes.

silkster

11-15-2022, 04:00 PM

Season 14: Round 4 Lists

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate
2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox
5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista
6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls
7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls
8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback
9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier
11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command

Hashed entry: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate, still too many choices

Link to Round 4 in the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit#gid=141673843

Note: Balance resolves in the order the steps are on the card, so if an opponent has Nullhide Ferox, they discard it, put it into play, then it gets sacrificed.

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-15-2022, 04:24 PM

6. Symbi: Balance
7. GoblinSmashmaster:Balance
10. RoosterCocoa: Balance,
Note: Balance resolves in the order the steps are on the card, so if an opponent has Nullhide Ferox, they discard it, put it into play, then it gets sacrificed.
I quit

Reeplcheep

11-15-2022, 04:32 PM

Solitude and chancellor seemed like the best package left, so of course I overcompensated. I still think instant speed discard is great.

11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate
Unless I’m missing something, you need to channel crab on city of brass trigger to have a threat. You can’t do that, reanimate, and also cast induced amnesia through chancellor, so we draw. DD 2-2

2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
You show and tell and pay 1, I make you discard 2. WW 6-0

3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
Karakas unfortunately is not white. You eventually need to use karakas to activate mishras and then I have 2 removal spells. DD 2-2

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox
0 mana removal + 2 tax + Tourach. WW 6-0

5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista
2 removal spells vs creature combo. DD 2-2
Edit: I forgot refuse gives me enough enough mana fixing to kick Tourach. WW 6-0

6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls
LL 0-6

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls
LL 0-6

8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback
Chancellor really hurts you here. You force my creature for the draw. DD 2-2

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
I shatter your sol ring after you loot. WW 6-0

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier
Edit: you can’t empty your hand for balance through chancellor without exposing balance to discard. If you balance with 1 card left I can just shock the Halbedier. DD 2-2

8 W 6 D 4 L for 30/54

Playing the cute threat instead of footfalls hurts me, but otherwise my ideas panned out.

jfb1337

11-15-2022, 05:00 PM

5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate
Cool deck. At first I thought it doesn't work if the opponent gives you no targets for crab, but then I realised that city does give you something to target.
LL - OTP I play druid, you counter it, then on your turn you amnesia, I offer, you reanimate. I can't pay for the ward in order to swift reconfigure the crab. OTD you just resolve amnesia.

2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
WW - OTP I combo off through mischeif. OTD you can't show and tell, as I put in druid, then configure it and counter mischeif, then I have inf green to pay for pact and balista you. So you pass and I combo off on my turn again.

3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
WD - OTP I combo off through lapse. OTD you karakas, I druid, you lapse it, I offer lapse. Now if you ever tap karakas I reconfig in response. You're still able to animate factory a limited number of times with your starting mana + treasures, which is sufficient to block my balista that I can play for 1. I could also reconfig your factory, but then you're free to karakas my other things, which is still a draw.

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox
WW - You don't stop my combo.

6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls
WW - OTP I combo off, OTD I counter balance and combo off.

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls
WL - OTP I combo off, OTD you balance.

8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback
DL - OTP I druid, you force pitch mage, I offer. I can't reconfig or you'll snapback, and vice versa, so I pass. You then dark deal to make me either discard or use reconfig, so it's a draw. Alternatively if you didn't force druid I'd then reconfig, you have to use both interaction pieces losing mage, and it's still a draw. OTD you mage naming swift reconfiguration, then you dark deal, I offer, you force.

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
WW - OTP I combo off, OTD you geier reach, I discard offer, you don't have 5 to rites this turn so I still combo off.

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier
LL - You can stop my combo and I can't stop balance, and you can offer your own balance under veil on order to ensure my hand is emptied so I can't reconfig halberdier when it comes down.

11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command
LL - OTP you upkeep prismari command me, I offer it, then druid. If you solitude, I reconfig, and vice versa. You can then tourach kicked because of the treasures, which I can't reconfig due to pro white, and beats a balista. OTD same thing.

Total: 10W2D = 32.

silkster

11-15-2022, 05:34 PM

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate
Here's me, cleverly playing City of Brass to give myself a trigger to counter with the Crab in the case where Induced Amnesia hits and my opponent does nothing.

2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
WW. Crab gets around Imp's Mischief, so I can stop S&T, and Induced Amnesia gets around the mischief too when I go on the offensive, at which point I'm clear to channel my crab against my own city.
I've had a soft spot for deflection spells since I first saw Deflection under the case at the comic book store for $15. I fairly quickly learned that keeping :3::u: up for just the right time was a big ask. But they got better as the years went on, and I was surprised that Imp's Mischief didn't do much in constructed. I have on in my modern-maybe-playables (a pile un-updated for 3 years now), but I thought it was only a matter of time before I play it here. I'm surprised someone beat me to the punch. I almost played Hive Mind combo at the end of the creatureless season, but it was too vulnerable to both LD and discard and I couldn't find the perfect fourth card to protect against both. But I completely forgot about it this season.

3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
WD. On the play, you have to do all you can to stop the amnesia, so you lapse, I crab, you pay :3:. You get to keep your lands, but you can't pay the ward :3:. On the draw, you can lead on Karakas, which means you're better off letting amnesia hit you and saving 3 mana to bounce the crab once.

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox
DD. I can counter the Ferox but I can't make a through through Leyline of the Void.

5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista
WW. Crab countering Druid means you can't combo. I lead on amnesia, you refuse, I crab, you either lose your hand or you pay for it and can no longer cast relevant spells.
I've seen this combo on a stream once, but I completely forgot about it. Had I remembered its existence and noticed that it can be paired with a counterspell, I think I would have played this list.

6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls
W?. Amnesia wins on the play, because hiding Turn the Earth in your graveyard leaves you unable to cast it again. On the draw is awkward. You can't play a Balance that would catch all my cards, but maybe balancing most of them is good enough since you can probably balance away my crab later or make enough rhinos to go wide. But I'm not sure you have the mana for it. I might be on the plan of countering the Talisman. I'll look again later.
I definitely wasn't expecting Talisman of Unity. I thought I knew what it did, but I had to reread it before I realized how important it is here. This is also the second time I've been surprised by Turn the Earth. I should remember that one.

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls
WL. On my play, I take your hand. On your play, you make 2 threats and then effectively play 2 Balances, so I single counter doesn't poke a hole in any of that.
I'm guessing that people forgot about the original Balance until FTW played the suspend version last week. At least, that was the case for me. I almost played Balance this week, but I think it was worse version than all the ones that showed up.

8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback
LL. You can force the amnesia, Meddling Mage naming Reanimate, and pay for the crab. Somehow, Force of Will was not on my list of ideas, despite the fact that I considered Force of Negation. I'm not sure if I'd have done differently, though, if it had been.
Of the five win conditions I could think of for Round 3, two were Depths and Barren Glory, one was Meddling Mage, and the other two are still no-shows. After the success of Lavinia, I was expecting more Pikulas, but he's a little less forceful with Cavern of Souls or Savage Summoning.

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
WD. On the play I catch your whole hand. On the draw, I can always catch Iona with the amnesia, but you can save your discard for my end step then make me discard again on my turn to stop me from reanimating anything.

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier
WW. On the play, you have to counter the amnesia and pay for the crab, leaving only enough mana for the Halberdier and not the Balance. On the draw, you have some interesting choices. You can force the Balance through if you want, but I'd only have to discard one card. If you start emptying your hand, then I'll be able to counter the Balance, use amnesia to clear the way for my Reanimate. I don't think you have any winning or drawing lines, but I'm not a hundred percent sure yet.

11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command
DD. If I lead on city + amnesia, you can Prismari Command to make me discard two cards to hold me to a draw. If I lead on amnesia without city, it costs me 4 mana and I will never be able to discard my crab. If you lead on Tourach, I counter it with the crab, and you either pay for it and lose to the crab or you lose your only win condition. If you lead on Prismari Command making me discard, I keep the Reanimate plus amnesia and get to win. So we do nothing.
This is the second time that I've been completely surprised by a Prismari Command.

10W, 6D, 3L, 1?

The 11 decks this round contain 41 distinct cards, which is super cool, and 20/37 cards submitted to me were not on radar as things to consider. The pool of playables for this season seems much wider, and once the cap is knocked off the iceberg, it broadens considerably. It's great for diversity, but it does mean the banlist is likely to be expanding significantly. Which is fine for me, as I want to dig down to the weird cards and interactions.

I still think instant speed discard is great.
For this round, I had a few fun ideas and excitedly made a gauntlet to test them against each other and a few of the surviving decks from last round, and I was disappointed to see that Grief + Mardu Charm came out on top. I'm surprised no one went for either of them this week. But of course, being a deck that scored 2.9 last round probably meant having a target on its head.

FTW

11-15-2022, 06:55 PM

8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback

Running out of total hand discards. Dark Deal now or never.

1. silkster: OTP Meddling Mage on Reanimate and pay 3 for Crab.
OTD Not being able to go off in 1 turn costs you. Force Amnesia, pay 3 for Crab, then Meddling Mage Reanimate. WW 6-0

2. dte: OTP Mage naming Squire, Dark Deal your hand away.
OTD if you cast Show and Tell then I put in Meddling Mage naming Summoner's Pact and you can't win. WW 6-0

3. Asthereal: OTP Meddling Mage naming Chub Toad, Force your Memory Lapse, and Dark Deal away your lands.
OTD you can play Karakas to draw vs Meddling Mage before I Dark Deal your other land. WD 4-1

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: OTP Meddling Mage naming Nullhide Ferox. OTD Force your creature, then Meddling Mage. WW 6-0

5. jfb1337: OTP Meddling Mage naming Swift Reconfiguration. Dark Deal your hand, Refuse your Offer with FoW.
OTD I let Devoted Druid resolve. If you don't also play Swift Reconfiguration, we pass the turn and I put Meddling Mage on the stack. If you Swift your Druid in response, you can't use the mana yet so I Dark Deal away your Ballista and win (Snapback pitch Force first if Ballista already in play). Otherwise Mage names Swift, Dark Deal away your Ballista and win. Therefore to avoid losing you must also play out Swift on your turn 1 (2 mana left). Then you can't both play Offer and threaten Ballista X=1. When you Swift targeting Druid, I pay RU to Snapback Druid in response. If you don't counter that, you can try Ballista X=1 but get Forced. If you cast Offer, I Force pitching Meddling Mage to draw. Or let Offer resolve, gain 2 treasures, then have 3UU to hardcast Force on Ballista (which you must play or lose to Meddling Mage). WD 4-1

6. Symbi: OTP Meddling Mage naming Turn the Earth, Dark Deal your hand away, and you can't get your cards back.
OTD You suspend Footfalls, I Force Talisman cutting off green mana for Turn the Earth. Then if you Balance, I keep 1 card in hand - Meddling Mage naming Crashing Footfalls. If you hold back Balance, I still Meddling Mage naming Crashing Footfalls and Dark Deal your Balance.
Edit: If you play Talisman first, then don't suspend Footfalls after I Force Talisman, you have G to cast Turn the Earth to get back Talisman. But recasting Talisman uses up your initial mana, so all you can do is Footfalls (loses to Meddling Mage). If you instead Balance that turn, you still have 1 card in hand (Footfalls) so I keep Meddling Mage and win, and you won't have enough mana to Balance again. If you don't Balance or Turn the Earth yet and pass, my line OTP wins. WW 6-0

7. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP Meddling Mage naming Goblin Snowman, Dark Deal your hand away.
OTD you suspend Footfalls, play The Rack, then Overmaster into Balance. I can't counter Balance so I Force The Rack and still lose to rhinos. WL 3-3

9. Wrath of Pie: OTP I Meddling Mage naming Unburial Rites, Dark Deal your hand away.
OTD you can't go off on turn 1. I can discard Dark Deal to your land, then Meddling Mage naming Unburial Rites. WW 6-0

10. RoosterCocoa: OTP I Meddling Mage. If you Autumn's Veil in response, I name Offer and then Dark Deal your hand away. If you don't, I name Autumn's Veil, then can Force your Offer so Dark Deal resolves.
Edit: OTD you suspend Keldon and cast Veil. If I Force Veil, you counter with Offer and Balance my hand away. If I let Veil resolve, you put Balance on the stack and target it with Offer. Balance will resolve and my hand is lost. WL 3-3

11. Reeplcheep: Chancellor Tax gets me again. You make me upkeep discard 2. I can't keep enough cards to win, so I keep Force+blue card to counter Tourach. DD 2-2

46 points (14 wins, 4 draws, 2 loss)

I almost submitted this last week. It would have scored more than my other deck. My last week's gauntlet included this, Tabernacle Lands, regular Balance, and also Overmaster + Channel + Emrakul (now banned so OK to spoil). Those sorcery speed decks did poorly vs Turn 0 Balance, so I submitted that instead, running into a ton of hate. Now with Tabernacle banned, Meddling Mage looked even better.

Of the five win conditions I could think of for Round 3, two were Depths and Barren Glory, one was Meddling Mage, and the other two are still no-shows. After the success of Lavinia, I was expecting more Pikulas, but he's a little less forceful with Cavern of Souls or Savage Summoning.

After Cavern and Savage were both banned with Lavinia, I held back Mage until Tabernacle and more turn 0 strategies were banned. Pikula still would have scored well last round though. He just needed a counter to compete OTD.

GoblinSmashmaster

11-15-2022, 11:27 PM

GoblinSmashmaster Results for Round "Balance"

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate
Rhino smash, then discard 3-3

2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
Rhino smash, then combo 3-3

3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
Rhino smash! 6-0

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox
Rhino smash! 6-0

5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista
Rhino smash, the combo 3-3

6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls
Rhino smash, then discard 3-3

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls
That's me on nonGoblins again

8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback
Rhino smash, then discard 3-3

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
Iona :( 0-6

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier
Rhino smash, then discard 3-3

11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command
Rhino smash! 6-0

Total: 36 points?

RoosterCocoa

11-16-2022, 12:01 AM

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier
Since it isn't obvious, if my opponent does nothing the way I empty my hand is by casting Veil, then suspending Halberdier, then casting Balance and in response casting Offer targeting Balance. However, Veil means that Balance doesn't get countered, and then when it resolves it sees no cards in my hand.

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate
Unfortunately Veil does not stop your Crab from countering my spells. OTP I can Balance and make you discard down to 1 by countering my own Veil, but you just keep Reanimate and win, so I don't think I can do anything. OTD I just lose my hand and die. LL

2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
OTP I cast Veil, suspend Halberdier, then cast Offer targeting Balance while Balance is on the stack since Veil means Offer can't counter my spells, and your Imp's Mischief does nothing. OTD I wait until you cast Summoner's Pact and I get my copy, then cast Offer targetting my copy of Summoner's Pact. You get a copy of Offer, and can either target my Offer, my Pact, or your Pact. If you target my Pact, you can't win and I eventually win with Halberdier. If you target your Pact, if you do nothing I will win since I can pay for Pact with the treasures I get so you cast Mischief. My copy of Mischief resolves before yours, so I target your Mischief and change the target to your Offer, which puts you in the same situation as before with your Offer copy but this time with nothing in hand, so you get the same results. If you target my Offer with your Offer, if you do nothing I will let it resolve and pay for Pact with the treasures I get, so you have to play Mischief and end in the same place as the previous situation, where all your valid targets for Offer lead to me winning. WW

3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
I make you discard your hand and blow up any land you play. WW

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox
I make you discard your hand, if it contains Ferox it goes to the battlefield then dies to the next step in Balance's resolution. WW

5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista
With Offer and Veil I can either counter any one of your spells or force one of mine through. OTP I Balance and win with Halberdier, OTD I counter your Walking Ballista, suspend Halberdier, and Balance, eventually winning. WW

6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls
OTP I Balance keeping Offer in hand. If you keep Balance, you can make me discard Offer but can only cast Footfalls once, meaning I can hold you off with my Halberdier and get a draw. If you keep Talisman, I can just counter Turn the Earth and you lose. If you keep Turn the Earth, I counter it and then you don't have green mana left, so you lose. If you keep Footfalls, the same happens, so the best you can do is a draw. OTD the only way I can get a creature is by countering Balance, but this lets you get too many 4/4s for me to draw against, and there is no way for me to counter each of your Footfalls so I lose. DL

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls
OTP you can't stop my Balance, OTD I can't stop yours. WL

8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback
OTP you can't stop Balance. OTD I can't beat Meddling Mage into Dark Deal. WL

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
I think I lose here. LL

11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command
If you use Prismari Command to make me discard on first upkeep, I discard Offer and Veil, then win by suspending Halberdier and casting Balance, with enough mana to pay for Chancellor. WW

12W 1D 7L = 37

It felt like mass discard was still strong, so since Restore Balance last week reminded me that Balance was a card I just slammed it with no further thought.

Asthereal

11-16-2022, 06:24 AM

Asthereal's results for round let's keep misreading the meta:

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate DL
OTP Karakas saves me, but OTD you go nuts before I get to play a land.
2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind LL
Hive Mind. Nice. I can't even use my WUBRG to pay for the Pact as I need GG. Very nasty. Your protection spell can stop my Lapse, so I just lose.
3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse <-me
I didn't expect too many combo/discard decks yet. I was wrong.
4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox WW
Huh, that's even more mis-meta-tuned than my deck. Sorry about that, man. I can Lapse your guy, or Karakas it. Factory takes the day.
5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista DL
I had to read these cards quite a few times, but I see it now. OTP I have Karakas to stifle your combo. OTD it just happens and you have Offer to stop Lapse.
6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls LL
Wow you really want to play that Balance. I can stop it once, but not three times.
7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls LL
Actually, you don't even need to Rhino smash with me OTP. You can make Rack for B. If I Lapse, you wait a turn, redraw Rack and cast it for G, then you go for Balance and I die to Rack.
8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback DL
OTP I get Karakas to sacve a point. OTD you do a scary thing.
9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria WW
I keep Leyline in hand. Your first discard try I dump Leyline, the second I dump Lapse. So I have enough time to play both Karakas and Factory. Karakas bounces Iona when she lands. Factory eventually wins it.
10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier LL
EDIT2: You can Veil, after which you can counter your own Balance which is then uncounterable, emptying your hand. I missed that.
11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command DD
Karakas rescues me here, but I can't get anything going myself.

Total: 17 points

Note: Balance resolves in the order the steps are on the card, so if an opponent has Nullhide Ferox, they discard it, put it into play, then it gets sacrificed.
The problem here is the word "instead". That makes it a replacement effect rather than a triggered effect. A trigger would have gone on the stack, but a replacement effect happens instantly, at the moment of and instead of the effect it replaces.

So yeah, Balance is a nasty bugger here. They banned it for a reason. :wink:

dte

11-16-2022, 06:42 AM

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate
0-6
0

2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
Me, thinking that after the ban of ESG and Bosejiu, there should not be many popular green sources. I also thought that T1 win with protection vs discard or counter would be good, was quite wrong. Definitely didn't anticipate druid, talisman or forest being played. At least scoring is easy ;)

3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
6-0
6

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox
2-2
8

5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista
0-6
8

6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls
0-6
8

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls
3-3
11

8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback
0-6
11

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
0-6
11

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier
0-6
11

11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command
0-6
11

Didn't go very well..

silkster

11-16-2022, 08:10 AM

@dte: I think you get at least one point against Symbi by playing the Hive Mind and doing nothing else because you will always get an equal number of rhinos.

Reeplcheep

11-16-2022, 08:55 AM

@dte: I think you get at least one point against Symbi by playing the Hive Mind and doing nothing else because you will always get an equal number of rhinos.

I believe DTE should also beat Rooster OTP by changing the target of offer to imp’s mischief. Veil doesn’t do anything to prevent this and this stops it from countering S&T or making green mana as appropriate.

dte

11-16-2022, 09:35 AM

I believe DTE should also beat Rooster OTP by changing the target of offer to imp’s mischief. Veil doesn’t do anything to prevent this and this stops it from countering S&T or making green mana as appropriate.

Unfortunately for me, Veil of Summer is banned, so Rooster does get a basic Forest, and put it on play from Show and Tell.
It should definitely change some of his MUs, but not that one.

Never taking a deck again that can never win against any deck that contains a banned card! (Edit: that part is still true, and a very good reason not to replay this deck).

@dte: I think you get at least one point against Symbi by playing the Hive Mind and doing nothing else because you will always get an equal number of rhinos.

True. 12!

Reeplcheep

11-16-2022, 09:43 AM

Autumns veil is not veil of summer, so I don’t think it should be replaced with a Forest.

dte

11-16-2022, 09:47 AM

Autumns veil is not veil of summer, so I don’t think it should be replaced with a Forest.

You are right, I am so used to veil of Summer now!
I still lose because of offer's treasures if I Offer his offer. Almost any other counterspell I can beat, but not offer.
And mischief gets mischiefed.

Damn hive mind ;)

jfb1337

11-16-2022, 10:09 AM

These rules on loops appear to be conflicting

If a loop containing at least one optional action would be repeated indefinitely across multiple turns, that loop may continue indefinitely, even if that would lead to a draw.

- If one player is able to take infinite turns through taking actions, that does not move the game forward and so that player must make a choose a finite number of turns to take before ending the loop.

FTW

11-16-2022, 10:22 AM

These rules on loops appear to be conflicting

Agree. In fact, the first one was intentionally worded that way to allow infinite turn draws (in a previous season when we voted on that). Maybe silk wanted something different this time?

It would be good to get a resolution on this. A certain card may come up soon...

FTW

11-16-2022, 10:29 AM

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier DD <-disagreement
EDIT: Wait: Balance only takes my hand if yours is empty. But it isn't. You have An Offer, which you can't use on anything. I start with Leyline in play, then do nothing at all. If you go for Balance, I just let it resolve. You have to allow me to keep one card, of you have to Offer your own Balance, which allows me to keep more cards. So Balance resolves with us both having one card in hand. I keep Karakas and play it the next turn. After this I get to eternally bounce your guy.

Rooster can get empty hand. I missed that too.

Suspend Keldon. Cast Autumn's Veil. If you Memory Lapse, it's countered by Offer and Balance resolves with empty hand. If Veil resolves, then Rooster puts Balance on the stack and targets it with An Offer You Can't Refuse. Balance won't get countered and will resolve with 0 cards in hand.
LL 0-6

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-16-2022, 11:02 AM

I wasn't going to post but some of you seemed to make a bunch of misplays against my deck so I have to correct the record:

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate
DD
2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
LL: Not only does Ferrox not stop Hive Mind you could pay the 2 before casting Summoner's Pact to remove the ability which prevented me from doing so.
3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
LL: Ferrox Isn't legendary, so no you can't Karakas it.
5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista
LL
6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls
LL
7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls
LL
8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback
LL
9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
WW
10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier
LL
11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command
LL: You Cast the tourache and can pay the 2 to get Ferrox with Solitude

FTW

11-16-2022, 11:12 AM

Rough luck facing 3 Balance decks this round. But you should get 2 more points!

2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind
LL: Not only does Ferrox not stop Hive Mind you could pay the 2 before casting Summoner's Pact to remove the ability which prevented me from doing so.

If you do nothing, dte can't win. Show and Tell puts your Forest in play, so you can pay the 2GG for Pact (as long as you don't spend mana on Ferrox). DD 2-2

jfb1337

11-16-2022, 11:14 AM

3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse
LL: Ferrox Isn't legendary, so no you can't Karakas it.

Have you read Leyline of singularity?

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-16-2022, 11:15 AM

Have you read Leyline of singularity?

Have you? They're not manditory.

jfb1337

11-16-2022, 11:21 AM

Have you? They're not manditory.

Asthereal also has one though?
They do still need to pay 2 to remove hexproof, but they can afford that

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-16-2022, 11:24 AM

I should have stuck with my guns and kept my mouth shut.

Wrath of Pie

11-16-2022, 11:54 AM

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate - DL
2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind - WW - Iona is spectacular at ruining Show and Tell. Also you are brave, willingly losing to green-producing lands.
3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse - LL
4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox - LL - Leyline of the Void is tech.
5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista - LL
6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls - LL
7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls - WW
8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback - LL
10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier - WW - I accept your offer on Sol Ring, otherwise I slowly discard your hand. Either way I get Iona.
11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command - LL

6w1d = 19 points

I am good at beating Balance and Show and Tell. Don't ask about the rest of the format.

Reeplcheep

11-16-2022, 12:23 PM

You are right, I am so used to veil of Summer now!
I still lose because of offer's treasures if I Offer his offer. Almost any other counterspell I can beat, but not offer.
And mischief gets mischiefed.

Damn hive mind ;)

I still think you can win after show and tell if you stack it right.

Show and tell, put in hive mind.
Cast pact, trigger, copy pact.
Rooster must offer his own pact here, trigger. Before your copy trigger resolves, cast mischief, trigger.

Stack is: pact (D), pact (R), offer (r), trigger to make offer (d), mischief (d), mischief (r)

Since your copy of offer is not made yet, there is no way for Roosters mischief to have two offers target his own spells. You then make R’s offer target your mischief and use your offer to target your pact.

silkster

11-16-2022, 12:26 PM

I actually didn't remember voting on it before. In any case, I see that I wrote contradictory things and I'm glad that it was pointed out before it came up. What I wanted the first one to say is that loops across multiple turns controlled by different people are allowed to continue (say Icy Manipulator against Grizzly Bears), but looping Time Sieve or Mindslaver is not. I will fix it when I'm at home.

In the dte vs Rooster matchup, Rooster doesn't need 4 treasure tokens, only two (well, really only one). I don't think dte can win.

Asthereal

11-16-2022, 03:45 PM

Rooster can get empty hand. I missed that too.

Suspend Keldon. Cast Autumn's Veil. If you Memory Lapse, it's countered by Offer and Balance resolves with empty hand. If Veil resolves, then Rooster puts Balance on the stack and targets it with An Offer You Can't Refuse. Balance won't get countered and will resolve with 0 cards in hand.
LL 0-6
Oh that's very fancy. Also booh. :tongue:

Have you? They're not manditory.
I have my own Leyline, which I put into play so I can use Karakas to bounce your guy.

Asthereal also has one though?
They do still need to pay 2 to remove hexproof, but they can afford that
EDIT: Never mind, I already had that draw. OTD I lose my hand, but OTP I indeed draw because I drop Leyline and Karakas, and have mana to remove ward and bounce the guy.

Symbi

11-16-2022, 03:48 PM

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate

OTP I cast Talisman. If you counter, Footfalls draws. If you don't counter, I suspend footfalls then cast turn the earth + balance. OTD I lose to amnesia. DL 1-4, 1 total.

2. dte: Imp's Mischief, Show and Tell, Summoner's Pact, Hive Mind

You must use show and tell for hive mind, but then I put in talisman and pay for pact. Edit: Hive mind ties with footfalls OTP. WD 4-1, 5 total.

3. Asthereal: Karakas, Mishra's Factory, Leyline of Singularity, Memory Lapse

You lapse talisman, but then I cast it again next turn. This leaves me with 1 mana floating. I then suspend footfalls with talisman, cast turn the earth next turn, then balance the turn after that. WW 6-0, 11 total.

4. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Leyline of the Void, Forest, Nullhide Ferox

You can't cast ferox because of balance. I can't cast balance because of ferox. Edit: I didn't read the thread first. WW 6-0, 17 total.

5. jfb1337: Devoted Druid, Swift Reconfiguration, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Walking Ballista

Offer + druid combo too stronk. LL 0-6, 17 total

6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls

That's me! T1 balance line is Talisman (3 floating) then suspend footfalls with talisman mana, then turn the earth with no targets (2 floating) then balance.

7. GoblinSmashmaster: Overmaster, Balance, The Rack, Crashing Footfalls

OTP I balance you. OTD you balance me and I die to rack or rhinos. WL 3-3, 20 total

8. FTW: Meddling Mage, Dark Deal, Force of Will, Snapback

I don't see a way to beat this. LL 0-6, 20 total.

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria

OTD, if you activate Geier reach I discard turn the earth. On my turn, I cast talisman and tap it to suspend footfalls. If you attempt to reanimate Iona next turn, you won't have the mana for that and Geier reach. Then, I turn the earth on Iona and next turn cast balance, leaving Iona stuck in your hand. If you don't, on my next turn I balance leaving up turn the earth, then your hand will be empty and I can stop flashback rites. If you activate Geier reach twice, you must discard unburial rites and I discard balance and leave up turn the earth. If you cast sol ring with Geier reach mana, I balance and Iona is stuck in your hand. If you play Geier reach but don't activate it, I do the same line as you will only be able to attempt reanimation once. If you play sol ring and sandbag Geier reach, I do the same line and keep turn the earth in hand when I balance. Regardless of what you keep, you only get one attempt to reanimate, which I stop with turn the earth. WW 6-0, 26 total. <-- Disagreement Here

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier

Offer + Halberdier to wall rhinos stops me from winning. So suppose I am OTD. You must make a move to win, so suppose you cast balance leaving just offer in your hand. I then keep turn the earth and cast it for balance. I then cast balance when halberdier resolves. If you counter turn, I use the treasures to flash it back. If you counter balance, I use the treasures to flashback turn for balance then balance again. If you leave nothing, I flashback turn for balance then balance halberdier. If you sandbag balance, I just balance myself when halberdier resolves and if you counter, I turn and balance again. Edit: When I am OTP you counter balance, but I can use the treasures to cast footfalls twice and brute force through the Halberdier. Edit again: I think I win this OTD as well. You must do something on your first turn. If you suspend Halberdier without casting balance, I wait a turn, cast talisman, suspend footfalls, wait another turn, and cast balance. If you counter or keep balance, I turn and cast a second balance after halberdier resolves. If you counter talisman, I suspend footfalls then cast balance after halberdier resovles. If you keep offer, I turn for a second balance after halberdier resolves. Then you must counter, and I flashback turn for footfalls and win with 4 rhinos vs halberdier. So you must balance. If you empty your hand, I flashback turn then talisman, suspend footfalls, and balance after halberdier resolves. If you keep offer, I keep turn. Then I immediately cast turn for the other cards. If you counter, I do the previous line. I then talisman, suspend footfalls, and balance with halberdier in play. You must counter this, but then I flashback turn + balance before footfalls goes off. If you keep halberdier, I keep turn then go turn for talisman and footfalls, talisman, suspend footfalls, flashback turn for footfalls, second footfalls. If you keep offer + halberdier, I keep turn + footfalls. I then cast turn for the other two cards. If you counter, I suspend footfalls, flashback turn for footfalls + talisman, and footfalls again. If you don't counter, I cast talisman. Countering this loses to balance + footfalls when halberdier is not suspended, so you don't. I then balance + footfalls on a turn when halberdier is not suspended. You must counter this. If halberdier is in hand, I turn for footfalls and cast second footfalls. If halberdier is in play, I turn for balance and cast balance. WW 6-0, 32 total.

11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command

If you cast Prismari Command before I get to do anything, I discard talisman + turn and win with my remaning 2 cards. If you don't, I start with talisman paying chancellor tax and suspend footfalls. If you Prismari command after I cast talisman, I discard turn + balance. Then I flashback turn and balance. If you don't, I just turn + balance next turn. Note that you don't have the colours for kicked Tourach. WW 6-0, 38 total.

FTW

11-16-2022, 05:18 PM

6. Symbi: Balance, Talisman of Unity, Turn the Earth, Crashing Footfalls - WW
I am good at beating Balance and Show and Tell. Don't ask about the rest of the format.

Disagreement.

Agree with Symbi. If Symbi plays out slowly and doesn't spend the starting G mana (Talisman -> suspend Footfalls -> pass), you can't win through instant Turn the Earth on Iona in response to Unburial Rites.

Symbi

11-16-2022, 05:53 PM

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria
I think I lose here. LL

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria

10. RoosterCocoa: Balance, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Autumn's Veil, Keldon Halberdier - WW - I accept your offer on Sol Ring, otherwise I slowly discard your hand. Either way I get Iona.

Objection! OTP, Rooster can cast balance leaving offer in hand. If Wrath keeps unburial rites, offer counters it and they will not have enough mana to flashback. If Wrath keeps anything else, offer counters flashback rites and then it is in exile. OTD Sol ring changes this. So this should be 3-3. Edit: Ignore this. Geier reach can discard offer and flashback rites.

silkster

11-16-2022, 10:07 PM

1. silkster: Induced Amnesia, City of Brass, Mirrorshell Crab, Reanimate

OTP I cast Talisman. If you counter, Footfalls draws. If you don't counter, I suspend footfalls then cast turn the earth + balance. OTD I lose to amnesia. DL 1-4, 1 total.

9. Wrath of Pie: Geier Reach Sanitarium, Sol Ring, Unburial Rites, Iona, Shield of Emeria

OTD, if you activate Geier reach I discard turn the earth. On my turn, I cast talisman and tap it to suspend footfalls. If you attempt to reanimate Iona next turn, you won't have the mana for that and Geier reach. Then, I turn the earth on Iona and next turn cast balance, leaving Iona stuck in your hand. If you don't, on my next turn I balance leaving up turn the earth, then your hand will be empty and I can stop flashback rites. If you activate Geier reach twice, you must discard unburial rites and I discard balance and leave up turn the earth. If you cast sol ring with Geier reach mana, I balance and Iona is stuck in your hand. If you play Geier reach but don't activate it, I do the same line as you will only be able to attempt reanimation once. If you play sol ring and sandbag Geier reach, I do the same line and keep turn the earth in hand when I balance. Regardless of what you keep, you only get one attempt to reanimate, which I stop with turn the earth. WW 6-0, 26 total. <-- Disagreement Here

11. Reeplcheep: Tourach, Dread Cantor, Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Prismari Command

If you cast Prismari Command before I get to do anything, I discard talisman + turn and win with my remaning 2 cards. If you don't, I start with talisman paying chancellor tax and suspend footfalls. If you Prismari command after I cast talisman, I discard turn + balance. Then I flashback turn and balance. If you don't, I just turn + balance next turn. Note that you don't have the colours for kicked Tourach. WW 6-0, 36 total.

Okay, DL looks right for my matchup. I was worried that paying to keep the Talisman might be good for you as you could theoretically get 4 Rhinos, but after paying for the Talisman, you can only do one thing and Turn the Earth gets forgotten.

WW looks right against Wrath of Pie. It costs 9 mana to cast Unburial Rites twice, which is theoretically doable, but the land gets Balanced away after the first attempt.

I thought Reeplcheep might have more play against you by using the shatter effect, but if they let you land the Talisman, you get saved by the fact that suspending doesn't use the stack, so you can suspend Footfalls and then cast Balance before Prismari Command can be cast.

With that completed, it looks like the cards joining the banlist will be:
An Offer You Can't Refuse
Autumn's Veil
Balance
City of Brass
Crashing Footfalls
Dark Deal
Devoted Druid
Force of Will
Induced Amnesia
Keldon Halberdier
Meddling Mage
Mirrorshell Crab
Overmaster
Reanimate
Snapback
Swift Reconfiguration
Talisman of Unity
The Rack
Turn the Earth
Walking Ballista

I'll make it official tomorrow in case any review is necessary (lots of decks are within one match result of joining or leaving the banlist), then open the round on the weekend.

Edit: The Brothers' War just came out, but I find it counter to the theme of a bannathon to be adding cards mid-season. Thoughts?

Dooey

11-17-2022, 02:25 AM

Sad I missed this one. I tend to only check this thread a couple times a week.

My vote is to make brothers war legal. More cards = more fun.

jfb1337

11-17-2022, 05:06 AM

I think new sets should be legal as they come out

Asthereal

11-17-2022, 07:51 AM

I am cool with both, but support silk's notion that allowing a new set as it comes out means adding cards to a bannathon, which doesn't comply with the idea of a bannathon.

Another reason to only allow cards that were legal at the start of a season is release dates tend to be all over the place. Often you get an online release a week earlier, or two, or a set is online only. All that stuff makes it harder to figure out when to allow a new set: paper release only? Do those differ per country? (Usually no, but it can happen.) The easiest and clearest way to approach this is simply allow all cards legal in paper magic at the start of the season and that's it.

The clearest way to allow a new set halfway through a season is to only allow it after the TO has explicitly announced a new set to be legal from round x onwards, and otherwise just stick to what was legal at the start of the season, minus the banned list of course. This way the TO controls it, and the players know what to expect: no announcement? No extra cards legal. Announcement? Then whatever the announcement says is legal.

When I was running things, I usually worked with the date for the paper launch for new sets, as stated by the official MtG website, from when the cards would become tournament legal in paper magic. But I'm not sure that was the best thing to do.

Symbi

11-17-2022, 08:53 AM

I think I actually beat Rooster OTD, but the method is somewhat complicated. The details on how are in my original post for this round.

FTW

11-17-2022, 12:53 PM

I think I actually beat Rooster OTD, but the method is somewhat complicated. The details on how are in my original post for this round.

Didn't read through it all in detail. Some of it says: Turn the Earth, then Balance to kill Keldon.
That draws, but don't you need to resolve both Talisman (for G) and Footfalls to win? In some lines it looked like you stopped after Balance, without answering how you get to the win. Or maybe it's answered much lower and just hard to find?

What if Rooster plays Balance with 0 cards in hand? I think you just barely win through flashback Turn the Earth (RG) -> Talisman (BU) -> Balance (W+talisman) -> Footfalls (talisman).

dte

11-17-2022, 12:59 PM

Symbi

11-17-2022, 03:24 PM

Didn't read through it all in detail. Some of it says: Turn the Earth, then Balance to kill Keldon.
That draws, but don't you need to resolve both Talisman (for G) and Footfalls to win? In some lines it looked like you stopped after Balance, without answering how you get to the win. Or maybe it's answered much lower and just hard to find?

What if Rooster plays Balance with 0 cards in hand? I think you just barely win through flashback Turn the Earth (RG) -> Talisman (BU) -> Balance (W+talisman) -> Footfalls (talisman).

It's possible that I missed something, but if I calculated correctly, all of the lines that balance to kill keldon do so with footfalls suspended. I also tried to ensure I had the mana for everything (noting that offer gives two treasures).

Why would Rooster balance?

If Symbi suspend, so does rooster, to have his creature arrives after the rhinos.
Then first strike beats 2 rhino, so the earth goes for 2 more.
Balance evens out, symbi can play two more. 3 rhinos do not beat one helleberder.

2-2?

If Rooster doesn't balance, they either suspend halberdier (which I have already covered) or they do nothing and I do my OTP win. OTP I cast talisman, suspend footfalls, then balance with turn in hand and G floating. If rooster counters balance, I turn for balance (leaving 2 treasures), cast second balance (leaving 1 treasure) then I have enough for flashback turn + second footfalls to beat halberdier with 4 rhinos. If rooster counters talisman, I just cast turn on nothing, suspend footfalls, and balance. If rooster keeps halberdier, I wait, then turn for second footfalls. If rooster keeps offer, turn for second balance removes offer and footfalls resolves. If rooster keeps balance, they must save it until footfalls resolves, but then I have second balance before that.

dte

11-17-2022, 05:57 PM

You're right. You can always cast your second balance before CF resolves, so you win both.

silkster

11-17-2022, 10:39 PM

I haven't had time to read the most recent posts carefully, but it doesn't look like it will change the bans, so let's go ahead and lock in those bans.

Since people seem in favour of Brothers' War, we might as well include it. I'm still not sure what I'm playing (I foolishly thought that Balance wouldn't be popular and had planned on playing a Balance deck this round, oops), so I'll open for submissions later. If you plan to send something in on Monday, you'll certainly be good.

FTW

11-20-2022, 10:35 PM

Since people seem in favour of Brothers' War, we might as well include it. I'm still not sure what I'm playing (I foolishly thought that Balance wouldn't be popular and had planned on playing a Balance deck this round, oops), so I'll open for submissions later. If you plan to send something in on Monday, you'll certainly be good.

Does this mean that Seething Song, Sneak Attack, Phyrexian Dragon Engine, Mishra, Claimed by Gix is legal this week?

At this rate we'll never see any goblins smashing.

silkster

11-20-2022, 10:53 PM

Does this mean that Seething Song, Sneak Attack, Phyrexian Dragon Engine, Mishra, Claimed by Gix is legal this week?

At this rate we'll never see any goblins smashing.

Not quite. Sneak Attack is banned. Also, the opening of the round is coming in about two minutes.

silkster

11-20-2022, 10:59 PM

ROUND 5 OF SEASON 14: WUBRG is now open.

I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 5, and for fun I made a salted hash at https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/sha256.html which is 560a8bac81ffa5c47558e3b49941a779a66b77700e924e973cbcd7cde766c9cf

[B]DEADLINE: Tuesday November 22st at 1:00pm Eastern Standard Time (GMT-5).
PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows:

silkster: Storm Crow, Storm Strike, Sandstorm, Rain of Blades.

So with name, colon, and card tags around each card, and not above each other, and with your Username and 4CB S14R05 in the topic.

Usually you should keep an eye on the banned list, found in the second post (https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33800-4-Card-Blind-The-Silkster-Seasons&p=1102334&viewfull=1#post1102334) and in the spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit?usp=sharing). Remember that the card pool is Vintage minus Unfinity.

After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.

Happy listbuilding! :smile:

name and 4CB S14R05
YOURNAME: A, B, C, D.

Wrath of Pie

11-21-2022, 02:29 PM

Bladestorm needs to be a card.

Asthereal

11-22-2022, 04:35 AM

Bladestorm needs to be a card.
My first thought: someone else is reading the Stormlight Archive as well. :cool:

silkster

11-22-2022, 09:35 AM

We're at 9 entries right now. Hopefully we get to our full 12 by the deadline. If not, I think my default plan is to wait one hour and then post.

Also my morning outing is a bit later than usual, so I might be a bit late anyway, though that would only be like ten or twenty minutes.

Reeplcheep

11-22-2022, 10:47 AM

A bit late since I didn’t realize failure to comply was banned. Sent

silkster

11-22-2022, 01:10 PM

We're now at 11 entries, which is pretty good. I found a phone on the road on my way home, so I was sorting that out, so I'm going to have lunch and then assemble the decklists. I got FTW's entry, and the only one that I'm still hoping for is jfb1337's. I expect to post lists around 2:15pm EST (which is in 65 minutes).

silkster

11-22-2022, 02:26 PM

Season 14: Round 5 Lists

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon
2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song
4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail
5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend
9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex
11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm

Hashed entry: Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon, typhoon shark do doo do do do do do

Direct link to round 5 in the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16xJDBindi3PzZo476RFO7mut9IDcP-yrr9DtMjoc73U/edit#gid=904352205

silkster

11-22-2022, 02:28 PM

The most egregious of errors: I carefully counted the number of doos for my hashed entry and then typoed an extra one. :tongue:

FTW

11-22-2022, 03:04 PM

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm

Should have played my 2nd choice deck. Picked a bad week to play creatures into Leyline+Karakas field. I was worried about it, but did not expect 3 copies!

1. silkster: On T0 I evoke Solitude and attempt to Resto Angel it. If you try to Trophy in response, I Flusterstorm with 4 copies and you can't stop that. Instead you let me get a 3/2 and 3/4. Then you could Trophy the 3/4 on the next turn, paying 1 for Chancellor, and you still have 2 to pay for Fluster. My 3/2 lifelink is too slow to race Shark Typhoon. T6 you can make a 2/2 to draw or T8 you can make a 4/4, so you're fast enough to draw but not win. Alternately I do nothing and you can't stop my removal killing the Shark. DD 2-2

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: I can't beat this and you can pay for Chancellor. LL 0-6
3. Dooey: I play Angel and beatdown. You get to play 2 bears. Solitude exiles Liberator (or Priest if you use up your mana without playing Liberator). Angel races 1 bear. WW 6-0
4. dte: Edit: Retrofitter is better than I thought. I can't race or even draw, since your discard pressures me if I do nothing. LL 0-6
5. Asthereal: Can't beat this. But if you cast Barbed Shocker and pay the tax, you can't Memory Lapse, so I can exile with Solitude to draw. DD 2-2
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Can't beat this, but you can't play Quagnoth through Chancellor. DD 2-2
7. Wrath of Pie: Chancellor Tax + Flusterstorm slow you down, but I still can't win before you Trophy 2 times. Instead I draw with Solitude on Village. DD 2-2
8. Symbi: Both your cards are immune to Chancellor tax. If I lead off Solitude+Angel, you can Void Rend 1 and Surrak races the other. If I just play Angel, you Void Rend it, I Solitude Surrak, then your land wins. So I do nothing.
If you ever make Surrak and attack, I Solitude it and blink with Angel. Void Rend kills Angel but then Solitude draws with the Village. But I think you can win by attacking with Village first? LL 0-6
9. RoosterCocoa: I play Angel. Since it races Kozilek, you must respond with Abeyance paying the Chancellor tax, forcing Flusterstorm, then Memory Lapse Angel. I can't win, but I can Solitude Kozilek to draw. DD 2-2
10. Reeplcheep: If I move first, paying for the Chancellor tax disrupts my ability to counter your Consign, so you could remove my 3/4 & trade with my 3/2 until your Chancellor wins. If you play Spellbinder first, I respond to the ETB trigger with Solitude + Angel, exiling Spellbinder. However you can wait to do that until you have mana to cast Chancellor afterwards and then I lose to Chancellor. LL 0-6

16 points (2 wins, 10 draws)

2nd choice scores 54. Harsh.

Reeplcheep

11-22-2022, 03:36 PM

10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex

Since a lot of the non-banned decks were discard based I tried a tax/midrange strategy.

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon
You can’t cycle from exile and I have 2 creature threats. WW 6-0

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
OTP I can bounce Leyline with no other valid targets and then exile sigarda. OTD I can cast chancellor or bounce Leyline but I don’t have time to do both. WL 3-3

3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song
Unless I am missing smothering here you can only resolve 2 spells. I don’t care about the creatures’ effects as revoker can’t name lands. WW 6-0

4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail
You don’t care about my taxes. LL 0-6

5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse
You can’t protect the shocker through annex. I bounce it and then save up infinite white mana to attack with my 2 creatures. WW 6-0

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
Annex will still counter quagnoth. If you put in Leyline I bounce it, if you keep it to pitch I just lead on spellbinder. Either way you have 0 non quagnoth castable spells. WW 6-0

7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
I assume I lose this. LL 0-6

8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend
If you flash in surrak in response to spellbinder i bounce him with consign and you don’t have black for rend. if you rend the spellbinder for 4, you won’t have enough for dragon claw so I can bounce the spellbinder, to later trade with village. I eventually win with chancellor. WW 6-0

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
I’m pretty sure I can either beat down with spellbinder or cast oblivion chancellor + consign on kozilek in time. ?? WW ??

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm
WW 6-0 per above.

15 W 0D 5 L for 45/60, but quite possibly less.

GoblinSmashmaster

11-22-2022, 03:42 PM

GoblinBeastmaster Results for Round "Karakas"

1. silkster: Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon
Quagnoth smash! 6-0

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
That's me! Angel smash :( 0-6

3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song
Quagnoth smash! 6-0

4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail
Quagnoth smash, then Blackmail 3-3

5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse
That's me! Quagnoth smash, then shocker smash 3-3

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
That's me for real!

7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
Quagnoth smash! 6-0

8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend
Quagnoth smash! 6-0

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
Quagnoth smash! 6-0

10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex
Chancellor :( 0-6

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm
Chancellor :( 2-2

Total: 38 beast points!

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-22-2022, 04:38 PM

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon
2-0 Hexproof limits your Trophy target to Leyline or Karakas. You can't stop SIgarda getting cast. To not have me Karakas your shark you need to trophy Karakas or leyline, which adds too much time to make a 5/5.
6

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
Did I finally do it? There has to be a ton wrong with my math.

3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song
2-0 My bigger creature means I'll always get to attack first. Which means I holdup Misdirection for Swan Song and race
6, 12

4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail
1-1 On the play I just attack, misdirect your Power Sink. On the draw, if I drop Leyline to try and karakas your tokens, I can't misdirect Blackmail to keep Karakas in my hand long enough to play it. If I don't drop leyline, then you play city and foundry before blackmailing me. If I let blackmail resolve you take karakas or Sigarda and I lose. if I misdirect it, you powersink for 2 (or more). Even if I pay it I'll be locked out of Sigarda.
3, 15

5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse
1-1 Race you on the play (misdirection for Memory Lapse, Hexproof for Karakas), discard my hand on the draw.
3, 18

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
2-0 Sigarda Races Quagnoth
6, 24

7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
0-0-2 You spend all your mana undoing my attacks which leaves you with none for Treetop Village
2, 26

8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend
2-0 The ability to bounce your bigger, naturally legendary, creature means you can hit me with it once for 6 (I tap out for sigarda, you flash it in), and that six point head start isn't enough for village.
6, 32

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
0-0-2 When I cast Sigarda you cast Abeyance, I can respond with misdirection but then you'll respond with memory Lapse on Sigarda. However, there's no way for you to untap with Kozilek vs my Karakas.
2, 34

10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex
1-1 On the play Play Sigarda and beat you down. On the Draw you Spellbind Sigarda, and then charge up a ton of mana. One hundred charge counters. Now you can cast both Chancellor and Spellbinder (which I bounced long ago). I can bounce one on your turn, then another when you attack. But then you cast them both again and I can only bounce one attacker a turn. basically you need to spend 5 (7 and then 3) on average every turn to deal 4. So it's 101 charge counters. or Just bounce the leyline.
3, 37

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm
2-0 I'll pay the one.
13-3-4
6, 43

Dooey

11-22-2022, 06:19 PM

Season 14: Round 5 Lists

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon
Revoker can name typhoon, but swan song alone doesn't protect from assassin's trophy -> negate, so you kill it and eventually make a big shark.

LL, 0 points

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
You outrace me and/or bounce all my stuff

LL, 0 points

3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song
It me

4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail
OTP I lead revoker. If you power sink for 4, I swan song and play liberator, which can attack through your swan once it flips. If you power sink for 3, I pay for it leaving you without a threat.
OTD Iz crazy. Best line I see for you is you blackmail me, I hide liberator, you take revoker. You can play city, letting you power sink for 5 to counter liberator, but if you ever tap out to play foundry, you can only power sink for 3, which I can pay for, and liberator flips then destroys foundry, so you can force a draw with blackmail, pass. If you race to a servo instead, I land liberator, you make a servo, you can blackmail to stop it from flipping, upgrade to flying, but not upgrade to 4/4 before I can destroy it. I'm not super confident on this one, but I think you just hold me to a draw.

WD, 4 points

5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse
I have to kill leyline and have a threat or blocker left over, and I don't see a line that lets me do that that you can't play around.

LL, 4 points.

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
Can't stop your thread and it's bigger than mine.

LL, 4 points.

7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
Liberator and revoker stare at village and swan.

DD, 6 points.

8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend
Your threat is too big.

LL, 6 points.

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
If you spend none of the starting mana, you get kozilek out on turn 7. But if you spend none of the starting mana, I swing for 5 4 times and win the race. If you spend 2 on lapse, I swan song and still get two threats. You can trade the swan with the 2 toughness one, but delay kozilek until turn 9, and liberator alone kills you in 7 hits. If you abeyance into lapse, you delay kozilek until turn 11, I play another 2 power thread, and a 2 power threat alone kills you in 10 hits.

WW, 12 points.

10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex
Your threat is too big.

LL, 12 points.

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm
Your threat is too big.

LL, 12 points.

A lot of reanimation turned out to be the wrong prediction for this round.

silkster

11-22-2022, 10:22 PM

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon
Shark Typhoon is one of the win conditions I thought would show up a few rounds ago.

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
I need 9 mana to make a 5/5 blocker and protect it from Karakas, which takes me until turn 6, which is too slow.
LL

3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song
I wasn't sure, but the fact that you can only make 2 of your threats means that I can kill the Revoker, Negate the Song, then grow mana until I get a 20/20 and if you ever attack, then my creature eats yours and wins at its leisure.
WW

4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail
I'm pretty sure this is a loss, but I haven't checked all the lines.
LL

5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse
I have to spend my resources fighting off the insect, so I have nothing left to win with.
DD

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
You kill on turn 6 and I get to 9 mana on turn 6 which lets me kill your land/enchantment and then make an instant speed blocker.
WL <-- disagreement

7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
Counter the Elixir, and then we assassinate each other's win conditions.
DD

8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend
I don't apply enough pressure, so you can take 3 turns off before making Surrak. Alternatively, if I kill the Village, I don't have enough time to make a big enough shark.
LL

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
Abeyance makes my Negate useless, but amazingly I can just make a 3/3 on your turn 1 and I win after your 7th turn, which is the turn that you cast Kozilek.
WW

10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex
Spellbinder is awkwardly good against me.
LL

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm
I can't beat Solitude, but I can either Trophy the Angel or make a 4/4 blocker depending on how many threats you commit to the board.
DD

5W, 6D, 9L = 21 points

I wanted to play two counterspells, but that left me with something like Memnite as a win condition. But I was afraid that others would find good double counterspell dekcs, so I ended up playing a threat that doesn't need to be cast. I should have known that it was Karakas's time to shine and played something untargetable. I did wonder if being more proactive was important, but I thought the instant speed growing blocker was good enough. Narrator's voice: "It was not." I got as far as hashing a different deck that would have gotten... about 30 points.

Not too many crazy surprises this week. Actually, there was less diversity than I was expecting. I hope that Karakas and Solitude earn their retirement.

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
Did I finally do it? There has to be a ton wrong with my math.
I haven't looked it over, but it's quite believable. Karakas was a good choice, and you found a good threat to make with the extra white mana. I was amused that you sent in your submission before I opened the round, so I could have planned against you or even copied you, but I didn't want your one submission to overly influence my brainstorming. In the end, that probably would have been better for me! I was also planning to send you a message pointing this out and also reminding you that you could resubmit if you wanted, but I was so slow in setting up the round that I didn't get to it, and I think I'm glad I didn't. I might have accidentally talked you out of your best result, which certainly wouldn't have been the intent, but still would have felt rather unfair. I look forward to seeing what you play next week.

dte

11-22-2022, 10:28 PM

Some disagreements on my side.

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon
6-0. Negate cannot prevent retrofitter to land, I can always discard either cove, typhon or trophy.
6

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
6-0, disagreement:
OTP I blackmail you and win.
OTD, you have to keep leyline in hand for pitch to misdy, so it goes:
T1 Sigarda
T1 retro & token
T2 attack 20-15
T2 pass
T3 attack, make a thopter, bloc, make a 4/4 (2 initial mana remaining)
Note that if you do not attack, I just make 1/1s
T3 attack 16-15 and pass
T4 attack 16-10, make a 1/1
T4 attack for 5, pass 11-10
T5 attack, bloc with a thopter and second 4/4
T5 attack for 8 and make a 1/1 3-10 --> win
12

3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song
1-4 Revoker and liberator, ouch!
13

4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail
Me, playing safer

5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse
3-3
16

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
3-3. Disagreement.
When I am OTP, either you played leyline and I discard karakas, either you didnt and I win.
19

7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy
6-0 I discard farm and counter elixir. You can pay but then you cannot activate it.
25

8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend
6-0. I discard the chamber, and you will only play one of your spells. either alone loses to foundry.
31

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
6-0 I kill faster and do not care about lapse.
37

10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex
6-0. I do not care about the tax
43

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm
6-0, disagreement.
Very complicated MU. One one hand, play and draw does not matter, and as fluster, blackmail and power sink are useless, it is just 2CB. On the other hand, it is terrible combat math.
But I think I win comfortably, attacking for lethal 3 turns before FTW can threaten lethal:
OTD
T0-1 2 creatures
T1 foundry and token
T2 attack 23-14
T2 pass
T3 attack with angel only or lose the lifelinker to a 4/4, block with thopter and make a 4/4 (2 remaining)
T3 pass
T4 attack with angel 23-11, make a 1/1
T4 attack with 4/4, 19-11
T5 attack, thopter block and second 4/4, no more mana
T5 attack with 1 4/4, keep 1 for blocks 15-11
T6 attack 15-8, make a 1/1
T6 attack for 8, 7-8
T7 attack 7-5, make a thopter
T7 attack for 8, solitude block 1 token, 6-5
T8 attack, block with thopter and make a third 4/4, still 6-5
T8 attack for 12 and win. It would require three more attacks for FTW to win, as I can chump once with a thopter token.
49

FTW

11-22-2022, 11:10 PM

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
Did I finally do it? There has to be a ton wrong with my math.

You did it! Congrats. You had enough bad luck earlier. Well-earned.

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm
6-0, disagreement.
Very complicated MU. One one hand, play and draw does not matter, and as fluster, blackmail and power sink are useless, it is just 2CB. On the other hand, it is terrible combat math.
But I think I win comfortably, attacking for lethal 3 turns before FTW can threaten lethal:
OTD
T0-1 2 creatures
T1 foundry and token
T2 attack 23-14
T2 pass
T3 attack with angel only or lose the lifelinker to a 4/4, block with thopter and make a 4/4 (2 remaining)
T3 pass
T4 attack with angel 23-11, make a 1/1
T4 attack with 4/4, 19-11
T5 attack, thopter block and second 4/4, no more mana
T5 attack with 1 4/4, keep 1 for blocks 15-11
T6 attack 15-8, make a 1/1
T6 attack for 8, 7-8
T7 attack 7-5, make a thopter
T7 attack for 8, solitude block 1 token, 6-5
T8 attack, block with thopter and make a third 4/4, still 6-5
T8 attack for 12 and win. It would require three more attacks for FTW to win, as I can chump once with a thopter token.
49

Interesting. This is complicated combat math.
Angel kills in 7 attacks. It seemed like you could not make 4/4s and race in fewer than 8 activations, but I did not realize how useful the starting mana was for enabling multiple activations per turn, speeding up your clock if you don't waste mana attempting Power Sink. That buys you a few turns.

If Solitude gets so few attacks, what if I just play Angel alone and then Solitude your first 4/4 to slow you down? If you try to Blackmail it from my hand or Power Sink Solitude, the Chancellor tax and Flusterstorm makes you waste even more mana, slowing down Retrofitter.

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
3-3. Disagreement.
When I am OTP, either you played leyline and I discard karakas, either you didnt and I win.
19

On your play:
GSM does not reveal Leyline
You cast Blackmail. GSM reveals 3 nonlands. If you discard Quagnoth it goes back to hand, so you discard Force of Negation.
GSM casts Quagnoth. Can't be countered.

Can you make 2 4/4s before Quagnoth kills you? It is bigger than my creatures.

Same for the FourDogs matchup with the 5/5 Angel.

dte

11-23-2022, 12:20 AM

Interesting. This is complicated combat math.
Angel kills in 7 attacks. It seemed like you could not make 4/4s and race in fewer than 8 activations, but I did not realize how useful the starting mana was for enabling multiple activations per turn, speeding up your clock if you don't waste mana attempting Power Sink. That buys you a few turns.

If Solitude gets so few attacks, what if I just play Angel alone and then Solitude your first 4/4 to slow you down? If you try to Blackmail it from my hand or Power Sink Solitude, the Chancellor tax and Flusterstorm makes you waste even more mana, slowing down Retrofitter.

If you play angel alone, I spend 4 manas getting rid of solitude by discard.
T1 angel - token
T2 20-17
T2 pass
T3 20-14 thopter
T3 pass
T4 chump, 4/4
T4 16-14
T5 16-11, 1/1
T5 11-11
T6 11-8, thopter
T6 7-8
T7 chump, second 4/4 --> I win comfortably at 8 life

On your play:
GSM does not reveal Leyline
You cast Blackmail. GSM reveals 3 nonlands. If you discard Quagnoth it goes back to hand, so you discard Force of Negation.
GSM casts Quagnoth. Can't be countered.

Can you make 2 4/4s before Quagnoth kills you? It is bigger than my creatures.

I dont even have to. Quagnoth has no evasion nor trample. Every turn it got blocked by a 1/1 that becomes a thopter, or a thopter that becomes a 4/4, while being beaten to death by anything.
And if leyline is not revealed, I do not cast blackmail. Leyline decision is before start.

Same for the FourDogs matchup with the 5/5 Angel.

This one I detailed:
OTD:
T1 Sigarda
T1 retro & token
T2 attack 20-15
T2 pass
T3 attack, make a thopter, bloc, make a 4/4 (2 initial mana remaining)
Note that if you do not attack, I just make 1/1s
T3 attack 16-15 and pass
T4 attack 16-10, make a 1/1
T4 attack for 5, pass 11-10
T5 attack, bloc with a thopter and second 4/4
T5 attack for 8 and make a 1/1 3-10 --> win

Foundry is really better than it looks!

FTW

11-23-2022, 12:51 AM

Foundry is really better than it looks!

This. I underestimated how useful Foundry is in this format. Being able to block and "level up" at the same time is very strong. Using the WBURG to threaten 2 activations is strong too.

Asthereal

11-23-2022, 07:45 AM

Asthereal's result for round 5:

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon DD
You can kill my threat before it eats your hand, but then can't stop Karakas so we draw.
2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection WL
OTP I eat your hand and win, OTD you drop Sigarda with protection, and Karakas can't touch her so I lose.
3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song WW
OTP I just eat your hand. OTD I have to slowplay: drop Leyline and Karakas and that's it. The only way you can get a result is by killing Leyline with Liberator, but that costs 3 mana. I can then Memory Lapse your next threat and you don't have mana to Song or cast something else, so I'll then be in the clear to drop Shocker and kill you with it.
4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail WL
OTP I eat your hand, OTD you get to do many things, which I assume are too good for me to beat, or hold against, without Karakas, which I lose to Blackmail.
5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse <-me
This time I remembered that there might be overpowered stuff still available, and seeing the Smiter-like dudes fail made me gamble on the Shocker.
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation WL
OTP I eat your hand, OTD you drop Noth which can't be Karakassed.
7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy WL
OTP I eat your hand after Lapseing Trophy and I win. OTD you cast Elixir off WUBRG mana for W and play Village. I drop Shocker and attack. You Trophy, I Lapse, then attack. You lose your stuff, but EOT use the remaining BR to Elixir it all back. from here, if you draw Elixir, you play it. If you draw the land, you play it and lose the Village, if you draw Trophy you lose it, but that's okay. At some point you will have a grave with Village and Trophy, a board with Farm and either Elixir in play or you'll draw it and then play it (not sure about the order, but it doesn't seems to matter for anything else than how long everything takes-i.e. how low on life you go). You cast and next turn use Elixir to get your stuff back. From here, if you draw Elixir, you play it, if you draw Trophy you can cast it on Shocker, if you draw Village you play it. I can't stop this, so Shocker will die and Leyline doesn't make Village legendary so I lose to it.
8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend LL
Karakas gets rid of Surrak, Void Rend gets rid of Shocker, I die to Village.
9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance DD
Karakas gets rid of Kozilek, your defence suite stops my stuff (i.e. Abeyance in response to casting Shocker, then after it resolves but before Shocker does, you Memory Lapse Shocker).
10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex LL
Shocker plus Lapse costs 7 mana, which I don't have. But OTP you need to use Consign to bounce my Shocker or you lose all your stuff, so my Leyline survives and I can Karakas your guys. Only problem: you tick up your land to a million mana, then cast both guys. I can bounce one EOT and one on my turn, but then you recast both in the same turn again, after which I can only bounce one and you get a hit in. Your win will take something like 200 turns, but it'll get there eventually.
11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm DD
Karakas keeps me safe but I can't win through your counter and removal.

Total: 24 points

FourDogsinaHorseSuit

11-23-2022, 08:28 AM

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection
6-0, disagreement:
4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail

I think then it's a draw, because you're limited by leyline to moving up the chain before making the next token which means if I can survive long enough I can eventually bounce every token:
I accept that there's no way to win, so commit to leyline Karakas. (Which, since I'm going first I can do.)
t1, Karakas
t1, Foundry, pass
t2, first decision point: I think here you should pass because next turn you'll be in the same position but with more mana. so even if it's suboptimal we know that you have infinite time to set up which means you should start from the strongest position, so 7 mana instead of 6.
t2 pass
t3 my end step you make a token. If I bounce you can spend 4 (1 starting remaining) to make it a thopter. Letting me bounce it puts us back to your t2: My untapped Karakas+Leyline vs You with 7 Mana, foundry and no attackers
t3 attack me to 19
t4 my end step you can make a 1/1, and I'll bounce the flying 1/1, you can't afford an untap here. OR You can choose to promote the 1/1, which would let me bounce a 4/4 instead. OR you can choose to do nothing: **
t4 you attack me to 18
t5 pass, you can't make a token here because leyline would kill it. You can't promote because of karakas. So you can exit this turn with 1 token, 1 spare mana.
t5 onward: Attack into karakas, make one token by your next combat and be put in the same fork where you promote into my untap and I tag the token or just make a token which I also can hit with karakas

**t4 you attack me for 1, I go to bounce it, you promote it to a 4/4
t5 pass
t5 attack for four, I bounce, and then between now and my next turn you make a 1/1
t6 I bounce it, we're in a 1/1 karakas loop because you're out of mana to do the make->untap->promote trick you did the first time

Reeplcheep

11-23-2022, 09:02 AM

Some additional wrinkles for the above:
Even with city dte can’t blackmail and Power sink x>5.

Costing dte 3 mana by casting sigarda into power sink is better than holding karakas up.

dte

11-23-2022, 09:16 AM

@4dogs, indeed, I did not thought about the legend rules for the tokens.

So it should be WD.

Wrath of Pie

11-23-2022, 11:11 AM

7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon DD
2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection DD
3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song DD
4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail LL
5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse WL
6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation LL
8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend WW
9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance WW
10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex WW
11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm DD - Slow Trophy (minimizing storm count) means that going all-in is really bad, so you just Solitude Treetop Village.

7w8d = 29 points

Trophy lives!

silkster

11-23-2022, 02:09 PM

I put the results I saw into the spreadsheet. We're just missing summaries from Symbi and RoosterCocoa. Some disagreements about Quagnoth (one of them mine). We're almost ready to confirm bans for next week.

Round 4 still has one unresolved match, with Turn the Earth and Iona both claiming victory. I think Turn is always able to tuck Iona to fizzle the Unburial Rites, yes?

Symbi

11-23-2022, 04:23 PM

1. silkster:Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon

If you have shark typhoon in hand on my T4, I cast Surrak with my lands, void rend any tokens, and trophy can only stop 1 threat. If you cycle shark typhoon early, I wait until T4 then do Surrak + void rend. If you blow up a land early, I win with Surrak. WW 6-0, 6 total.

2. FourDogsinaHorseSuit: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Misdirection

Can't beat Karakas + Sigarda, LL 0-6, 6 total.

3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song

Surrak just beats this. WW 6-0, 12 total.

4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail

Blackmail ensures I never get simic growth chamber. Then retrofitter can beat Surrak without void rend backup. LL 0-6, 12 total.

5. Asthereal: Karakas, Leyline of Singularity, Barbed Shocker, Memory Lapse

Void rend Shocker and you can't stop treetop village. WW 6-0, 18 total.

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation

Can't beat karakas + Quagnoth. LL 0-6, 18 total.

7. Wrath of Pie: Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Elixir of Immortality, Assassin's Trophy

Trophy blows up all my stuff. LL 0-6, 18 total.

8. Symbi: Surrak Dragonclaw, Simic Growth Chamber, Treetop Village, Void Rend

That's me, teching against discard which wasn't played.

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance

You're too slow. WW 6-0, 24 total.

10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex

You cast spellbinder on T1 and bind Surrak. Then if I void rend, I can't cast Surrak at all and you consign the spellbinder to save it. Then I lose. If I Surrak in response, it gets consigned and I lose. If I wait to cast Surrak, the same thing happens. LL 0-6, 24 total.

11. FTW: Chancellor of the Annex, Solitude, Restoration Angel, Flusterstorm

If you cast resto + solitude early, I void rend resto then cast Surrak and attack with it while leavened treetop village as a blocker. If you sandbag, I can then attack with treetop village. This forces solitude + resto in response (Life totals 23-20). Next turn (17-23) I cast Surrak leaving BW in my mana pool. If you attack with solitude I block it and rend resto. So you attack with just resto (14-23). I then kill solitude on my next turn, then I have a 4 turn clock while you have a 5 turn clock, and leaving resto as a blocker doesn't help you. Edit: This is actually a draw because if I attack with treetop village, you cast resto and leave solitude. Then if I don't void rend immediately, treetop village dies and you have solitude for Surrak. If I do, you solitude the village and I don't have the mana for Surrak. DD 2-2, 26 total.

silkster

11-25-2022, 12:50 AM

I did my best guess at RoosterCocoa's results. One of them disagrees with the other summary. There's also still two disagreements about Quagnoth (one of them is mine), but it doesn't look like the cards earning bans will change. They are:
Blackmail
Chancellor of the Annex
City of Traitors
Consign // Oblivion
Elite Spellbinder
Force of Negation
Fountain of Cho
Karakas
Leyline of Singularity
Misdirection
Power Sink
Quagnoth
Retrofitter Foundry
Sigarda, Host of Herons

I'll likely open the round tomorrow some time.

Symbi

11-25-2022, 05:14 AM

Fun fact: Solitude is the only card that has been played in all five rounds so far.

Reeplcheep

11-25-2022, 08:14 AM

Working out the disagreements:

GoblinBeastmaster Results for Round "Karakas"

1. silkster: Negate, Assassin's Trophy, Saprazzan Cove, Shark Typhoon
Quagnoth smash! 6-0

4. dte: City of Traitors, Retrofitter Foundry, Power Sink, Blackmail
Quagnoth smash, then Blackmail 3-3

6. GoblinSmashmaster: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, Quagnoth, Force of Negation
That's me for real!

Isn’t 9 mana a 6/6 shark and you only need a 5/5?
S, etb tapped G quagnoth
S add a counter G smashes to 16
S add a counter G smashes to 12
S add a counter G smashes to 8
S add a counter G smashes to 4
S taps for UUUU, pays GB for trophy and WRU UUUU for a 6/6 shark.

Shouldn’t this be WW silk?

Goblin edited their post, seems they agree on 3-3 vs dte.

10. Reeplcheep: Elite Spellbinder , Fountain of Cho, Consign // Oblivion , Chancellor of the Annex

Since a lot of the non-banned decks were discard based I tried a tax/midrange strategy.

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
I’m pretty sure I can either beat down with spellbinder or cast oblivion chancellor + consign on kozilek in time. ?? WW ??

If we both just deploy our cheapest threats, spellbinder kills on t8 and R casts Kozilek through chancellor and spellbinder taxes and with memory lapse up for consign when R has 15 mana, which 15-5+2= t12.
Memory lapse on spellbinder clears the chancellor trigger and postpones spellbinder 4 turns (to keep my U mana), but that gives R no answer to consign on kozilek.
WW 6-0 for me

3. Dooey: Containment Priest, Phyrexian Revoker, Outland Liberator, Swan Song
It me

9. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Memory Lapse, Abeyance
If you spend none of the starting mana, you get kozilek out on turn 7. But if you spend none of the starting mana, I swing for 5 4 times and win the race. If you spend 2 on lapse, I swan song and still get two threats. You can trade the swan with the 2 toughness one, but delay kozilek until turn 9, and liberator alone kills you in 7 hits. If you abeyance into lapse, you delay kozilek until turn 11, I play another 2 power thread, and a 2 power threat alone kills you in 10 hits.

WW, 12 points.

Since containment priest has flash, and can attack before D casts liberator if D is OTD, D always gets in 10 attacks before Rs t11. WW Dooey