Mono W Initiative Stompy

[Barook]

Apparently this deck is all rage right now, putting up results left and right with a win percentage against the format to back it up. It's odd not to have a discussion thread for that.

Sample decklist (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5235960#online)

Most people have adopted SFM by now, but there are still great differences between the lists.

Your thoughts on the deck/current lists?

[PirateKing]

I saw this deck that was also running Palace Jailer.
Watching them lock the game up and get value off Monarch and Initiative was pretty impressive.
This was before Unfinity was fully spoiled, but the player was saying they were interested in putting Attractions into the list to go all the way into "out of game" effects

[FTW]

This version has impressive win rates against Tier 1 decks: https://mtgmeta.io/decks/29417

8x tax effect (4 Esper Sentinel, 4 Thalia) seems strong against a format of Brainstorms. It also has 8x Stp (4 Swords, 4 Solitude) vs creatures, when Stp currently answers the best fair creatures (Murktide, Uro) and combo creature (Marit Lage), so Swords effects are well-positioned.

White creature-based stompy was always good at taxing but typically lacked card advantage. The main way to get card advantage was the Soldier mechanic, so Soldier Stompy was the dominant archetype. Solitude and the modal land improved threat density. Now initiative puts card advantage onto midrange white creatures. The initiative mechanic is a bit too 1-sided if you can back it up with prison/protection.

ThrabenU trophies with a SFM version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnthWhkI__A
ThrabenU on earlier version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e9eiYAPnLk
ThrabenU 4-1 on Winota Boros version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unyn7d1d9Gg

The Boros version seems more meme. Mono white looks promising.

Radiant Solar looks weak. Archon of Emeria, Elite Spellbinder, or Anointed Peacekeeper offer good variety for 3-mana hate creatures.

[Barook]

I expect the win percentage to go down a bit once the format has adapted to it. E.g. people are starting to run Torpor Orb now.

The Initiative is so strong because it gives you immediate CA in form of a basic land, which ensures you your next land drop as well while negating all card disadvantage from using fast mana like Moxen or Lotus, and putting massive pressue on the opponent with the two +2/+2 counters and the 5 life loss the next turn. A T1 White Plum Adventurer turns into a pseudo-vigiliance 5/5 beater on T2. Combine that with Trap and your opponent is already down 15 life at T3, with White Plum threatening lethal on T4 -all with no further mana investment, so you can start playing other stuff as early as T2. White Stompy decks never had access to threats this fast before. And it isn't like Dungeoneer isn't shabby, either, with its explore mechanic and pro creature attack trigger.

Archon of Emeria is really strong, but I'm not too sold on the other 3-drop options yet. They're all cute, but don't feel as impactful as the rest of deck. There's probably streamline potential there.

[FTW]

Good points.

The core slots seem to be

//Mana: 28+
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
1-2 Karakas
x Plains

//Creatures: 16
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude


Most players are on Chalice instead of 1 drops
//Prison: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

That leaves about 10-12 other slots. Although some builds trim on Thalia, Solitude or Petal to create space.

Many are on the Stoneforge package:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Kaldra Compleat
0-1 Lion Sash
0-1 Umezawa's Jitte
0-1 Batterskull

Some are on the Saga package:
4 Urza's Saga
1 Shadowspear

The packages are cute but also limit density of disruptive creatures. The remaining slots seem up for grabs, with a range of disruptive options:
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Archon of Emeria
Elite Spellbinder
Anointed Peacekeeper
Cloudsteel Kirin
Palace Jailer
Touch the Spirit Realm
Wasteland
Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
Timeless Dragon
The Wandering Emperor

Multiples of Eiganjo are common now. But I think basic Plains will prove more valuable long-term. All threats are white so you can't afford to get hated off white.

The SFM package is popular for boosting threat density. Is that better than the disruption?

Archon of Emeria seems very strong at slowing opponent down enough for the engine to take over.

Timeless Dragon is a great card in general but not seeing much play yet.

Flickerwisp is unplayed but has good interactions, retaking the Initiative via ETB trigger or flying combat. It is weak to Torpor Orb though. Touch the Spirit Realm is good flicker tech that also answers Torpor or flying attackers.

[TsumiBand]

Emeria's Call is a card choice I'm not sure I fully understand, it looks like Chrome Mox food that can also be a land? Is casting it just for the memes then?

[Barook]

Emeria's Call is a card choice I'm not sure I fully understand, it looks like Chrome Mox food that can also be a land? Is casting it just for the memes then?
It's the former, pitch fodder for Chrome Mox that doubles as land, if necessary. You would very rarely cast the actual spell.

Same reason why Red Stompy runs Shatterskull Smashing. It's about slot efficiency.

[Fox]

Emeria's Call is a card choice I'm not sure I fully understand, it looks like Chrome Mox food that can also be a land? Is casting it just for the memes then?

Spell lands decrease mulligans, thus directly increasing CA. This is why every deck that can plays them; getting better while cantrip cartel does not get better.

Now the white spell lands are pretty worthless on the spell side as compared to a burn spell, but you have up to 12 ways to pitch them (Mox, Solitude, March).

[FTW]

Currently very few builds are on March of Otherworldly Light. Sometimes 2 copies in the SB. I expect this to increase as the meta adjusts. March is such a powerful and flexible card, especially with the MDFC to pitch for white.

Threats to watch out for...

Torpor Orb/Dress Down stopping abilities. They're also good against Doomsday, Yorion D&T, 4c Yorion, Goblins, and Esper Vial so they should see play. March pitching 1 card cleanly answers them without loss of tempo.

Humility could enter UWr sideboards if they're on the walker plan. March answers this too.

EOT Brazen Borrower, ambushing to steal the Initiative and/or bouncing an accelerated creature. March handles flash creatures. Even Marit Lage.

T1 DRC with fast Delirium, threatening to steal the Initiative. March cleanly answers it.

Urza's Saga -> Meekstone (lol, not completely impossible vs 3/xs). March kills Saga before it does anything.

[thefreakaccident]

//Mana: 28+
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
1-2 Karakas
x Plains

So, FTW and friends, how many plains are supposed to be here? I would probably lean towards 2x karakas depending on the number of plains. Since we search for plains fairly regularly, we want a certain minimum of them of them though.

[FTW]

It depends. The deck is new. There isn't a stock build yet. That's the rough core common to most builds with strong online results.

Many lists are on
2 Karakas
2 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
5 Plains

29 mana sources total, leaving 11 slots after the core. Then the Stoneforge package often takes another 6-7 slots, leaving only 4-5 flex slots for disruptive creatures.

But some lists run more basic Plains and fewer nonbasics.
Some run colorless utility lands (Wasteland, Urza's Saga) and only 4 Plains.

It's not clear what is optimal yet.

[Barook]

Currently very few builds are on March of Otherworldly Light. Sometimes 2 copies in the SB. I expect this to increase as the meta adjusts. March is such a powerful and flexible card, especially with the MDFC to pitch for white.

Threats to watch out for...

Torpor Orb/Dress Down stopping abilities. They're also good against Doomsday, Yorion D&T, 4c Yorion, Goblins, and Esper Vial so they should see play. March pitching 1 card cleanly answers them without loss of tempo.

Humility could enter UWr sideboards if they're on the walker plan. March answers this too.

EOT Brazen Borrower, ambushing to steal the Initiative and/or bouncing an accelerated creature. March handles flash creatures. Even Marit Lage.

T1 DRC with fast Delirium, threatening to steal the Initiative. March cleanly answers it.

Urza's Saga -> Meekstone (lol, not completely impossible vs 3/xs). March kills Saga before it does anything.
March seems good and nuking Sagas for :w: should be pretty decent. The deck has alot of mana due to the Initiative, although I wouldn't go all-out on the pitching since the deck is already quite pitch-hungry.

One of the neat things about Touch the Spirit Realm that I've just realized is that you can pitch-play Solitude, then pay 1W to flicker it in response to keep it around and get another StP ETB. That's pretty nifty.

[FTW]

Plan A should be to pay for March. But it's nice that you can choose to pitch cards. The Initiative is about tempo. Opponents will try to disrupt it with tempo tricks, stopping the trigger or stealing the initiative. March lets you choose to trade cards for tempo, protecting the Initiative when you need to.

Example 1:
You cast White Plume. Fair blue player flashes Dress Down. You can exile with March for W (exiling 1 card), then still get the Initiative. That means you only need W open to protect against potential Dress Down, instead of needing 2W extra (i.e. opponent gains 5 Time Walks) or missing the Initiative (get Elked). Pitch is risky vs blue but can also prevent blowout.

Example 2:
On the draw. Plains go. Nonblue opponent plays Torpor. You can EOT March exiling Torpor for W (exiling 1 card), then untap and play White Plume on curve. No tempo loss.

Of course it works as a fair card too.

Touch the Spirit Realm is very flexible. Flicker uncounterably protects Dungeoneer from removal and steals the Initiative back. You could also do the Solitude trick, get a 2nd equip with Stoneforge, exile & regain the Monarch with Palace Jailer... Or it can just be fair Oblivion Ring.

[FTW]

Challenge results showed top players came ready to beat Stompy: https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/legacy-challenge-2022-12-0412499782

W Stompy players shifted off Stoneforge package to play more disruptive creatures and the very techy Touch the Spirit Realm, but their SBs were not geared towards hate brought against them. Many wasted slots on Empty-Shrine Kannushi for the mirror.

1st place deck had 4x Dress Down in the SB. Touch is good against Torpor but weaker against flash Dress Down. You have to flicker to re-enter after Dress Down dies, then you're still down tempo and a card. None of the SBs had March of Otherworldly Light. Would that have helped the tempo at least? Even worse for cards though.

The top Delver deck ran 2 Unchained Berserker. Not even Blood Knight, but a 2-drop that can attack through X/3s, steal the initiative back, and race 3/xs. None of the Stompy players came ready to fight protection creatures.

Another deck played Anarchy. The hate is here.

[Barook]

European Legacy Masters Winner (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1ss6mem)


Winner Samuel Zahorcak

maindeck
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Anointed Peacekeeper
4 Elite Spellbinder
4 White Plume Adventurer
3 Touch the Spirit Realm
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
2 Palace Jailer
4 Solitude
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Karakas
1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
3 Plains
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Emeria's Call // Emeria, Shattered Skyclave

sideboard
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Containment Priest
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Empty-Shrine Kannushi
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Loran of the Third Path

On a different note, I'm interested to see how Archon of Absolution would perform in SBs. It should have some more utility compared to Kannushi.

[MD.Ghost]

Great white Stompy get attention - i mean i already posted at september my take on White Eldrazi. It should perform nearly equal - the current Mono W Initiative is more all in in terms of Mana and throwing a T1 cc2-3 card onto the field. I think i would still find some place for some copies of Eldrazi Displacer, cause you have the mana and the ability to flicker White Plume Adventurer, Palace Jailer, Solitude, Elite Spellbinder/Peacekeeper etc isnt bad - Displacer alone also handle creature from opponent.

Overall great that stompy shell get some cool results - on the other hand, players will have you on the radar now and are more prepared, which will make it a bit harder :tongue:

[FTW]

Archon is interesting. It seems better against other decks, but worse against the mirror on the draw, due the high mana cost. Kannushi is a cheap T1 response on the draw.

Archon would be hilarious vs Mentor (tax on token attacks, blocks the biggest attacker, protection from white removal). That's quite niche though.

Displacer could be good tech. It's much slower and grindier than Touch the Spirit Realm, which is more of a tempo play. They have advantages in different scenarios.

[MD.Ghost]

It depends. The deck is new. There isn't a stock build yet. That's the rough core common to most builds with strong online results.

Many lists are on
2 Karakas
2 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
5 Plains

29 mana sources total, leaving 11 slots after the core. Then the Stoneforge package often takes another 6-7 slots, leaving only 4-5 flex slots for disruptive creatures.

But some lists run more basic Plains and fewer nonbasics.
Some run colorless utility lands (Wasteland, Urza's Saga) and only 4 Plains.

It's not clear what is optimal yet.

My current list would be something like this:

// Deck: White Stompy 2022 Winter Edition (60)

// Lands 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
2 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
2 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Wasteland

// Creatures 26
4 Archon of Emeria
2 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Esper Sentinel
2 Palace Jailer
2 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer

// Artifacts 10
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Cathar Commando
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Loran of the Third Path
SB: 1 March of Otherworldly Light
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Selfless Squire
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares

Its overall more land heavy and less turbo/all in than the current 8 Mox Version, i played stompy a lot over the years and the good old Sylvan Plug times showed, that balance matters, cause while it is cool to jam 8 double mana lands (tomb/city) and max Mox, it also tends to Mulligan more and quickly got out of tempo if the start gets disrupted (and the time for unprepared meta is over with current results).

With Archon of Emeria i still like the additional Wasteland Option to attack enemy manabase, which could be good for mirror too - but with Esper Sentinel i got also see Urza's Saga with some Utility working.

Esper Sentinel - why not, a 1 drop that disrupt or draw some cards and could be caverned as a human into chalice isnt so bad overall and works well with stacking taxing like thalia, archon, wasteland etc.

I am a great fan of Eldrazi Displacer in a white stompy shell, cause flicker each turn is super strong. It's not a white card, which is bad for Solitude but less critical without Chrome Mox - on the other hand its a little bonus if meta/mirror techs goes for protection white :tongue: and yes @FTW Touch the Spirit Realm is the better Tempo Card - but as i said, tempo may not be the answer once meta adapts and opponent knew the deck cards and how to play against the shell.

Sideboard is a quick draft and while i really like Loran of the Thord Path, i feel that Cathar Commando could be the better tech vs Orb & Co, while also function as a flash blocker/attacker at mirror (to gain Initiative) or vs Walkers etc.

March of Otherworldly Light is still a good flexible solution too.

Selfless Squire is more of a pet card but nobody will see it coming and it can quickly swing some games if timed well.

[Scott]

Related in a big way to this deck, it's crazy to me that Brainstorm/FoW/Ponder now have competition for being the most-played nonland card in Lotus Petal (albeit a mana card), in the last two weeks. Not saying it'll stay that way, but I don't remember that ever happening, or Brainstorm being at 42%.

https://i.imgur.com/4j0rQnA.png

[the Thin White Duke]

I wonder when the geniuses at Wizards start talking about putting the W Initiative cards on a watch list. What if Brainstorm and FoW dipped 8-12%?? Does that constitute the format was being warped?

[PirateKing]

Getting back from Eternal Weekend, safe to say this deck is not a brew.
Once the lists get posted this should move to Established Decks.

[Scott]

Related in a big way to this deck, it's crazy to me that Brainstorm/FoW/Ponder now have competition for being the most-played nonland card in Lotus Petal (albeit a mana card), in the last two weeks. Not saying it'll stay that way, but I don't remember that ever happening, or Brainstorm being at 42%.

https://i.imgur.com/4j0rQnA.png

Got there, kinda

https://i.ibb.co/DfbYPYz/Screenshot-20221216-135843.jpg

[FTW]

Should this be in N&D or DTB?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#paper

It's the #2 deck after Delver, 12.8% of the meta.

McWinSauce 3rd place from Jan 1st MTGO Legacy Challenge

//Mana: 29
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
1 Karakas
2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
2 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Cavern of Souls

//Core: 16
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude

//Prison: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

//Other creatures: 8
4 Elite Spellbinder
2 Palace Jailer
2 Walking Ballista

//Tricks: 3
3 Touch the Spirit Realm

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Archon of Absolution
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Loran of the Third Path
1 Containment Priest
1 Touch the Spirit Realm


cenora_jf 1st place from Dec 31st MTGO Legacy Challenge

//Mana: 29
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
2 Karakas
1 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
2 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls

//Core: 16
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude

//Prison: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

//Other creatures: 8
4 Elite Spellbinder
2 Palace Jailer
2 Walking Ballista

//Tricks: 3
3 Touch the Spirit Realm

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Empty-Shrine Kannushi
2 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Walking Ballista
1 Null Rod



_Batutinha_ 4th place from Dec 31st MTGO Legacy Challenge

//Mana: 29
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
1 Karakas
2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
2 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls

//Core: 16
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude

//Prison: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

//Other creatures: 8
4 Elite Spellbinder
2 Palace Jailer
2 Walking Ballista

//Tricks: 3
3 Touch the Spirit Realm

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Empty-Shrine Kannushi
2 Containment Priest
2 Ephemerate
1 Walking Ballista



gnorilgrande 1st place Dec 29th MTGO Legacy Super Qualifier

//Mana: 29
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
1 Karakas
2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
2 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls

//Core: 16
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude

//Prison: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

//Other creatures: 8
4 Elite Spellbinder
2 Palace Jailer
2 Walking Ballista

//Tricks: 3
3 Touch the Spirit Realm

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Archon of Absolution
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Loran of the Third Path
1 Containment Priest
1 Touch the Spirit Realm



Robert Hayes 9-1 2022 NA Legacy Championship Dec 10th

//Mana: 30
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
2 Karakas
1 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
3 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls

//Core: 16
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude

//Other creatures: 7
3 Elite Spellbinder
2 Anointed Peacekeeper
1 Palace Jailer
1 Walking Ballista

//Tricks: 7
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Touch the Spirit Realm

//Sideboard: 15
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rest in Peace
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Loran of the Third Path
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Walking Ballista



Some notes:
-The Stoneforge package is out. I called that early. It takes too much space from the few non-core slots. More hatecreatures and interaction is better.
-Most are on Chalice main and StP SB. Some have StP main (often Chalice SB). Depends on meta.
-Flying Elite Spellbinder seems to be the preferred 3cmc hate-elephant, though Anointed Peacekeeper and Archon of Emeria also see play
-Archon of Absolution is seeing more play as the SB pro-white mirror-breaker
-Walking Ballista gets around SB pro-white creatures

[PirateKing]

Well DtB hasn't been updated since summer.
We're well beyond rogue deck, people should expect to face and have sideboard strategies against this deck.

Question for the pilots: what additions does this deck give that helps it avoid the traditional auto-losses to itself other stompy decks suffer from?
Emeria's Call as Chrome Mox pitch or land drop by itself is a positive change to the archetype in that regard, but every color has that option now.
Secret Entrance helps buffer the losses of going all-in on getting Initiative turn 1, so you're not stuck on Ancient Tomb for the rest of the game.
Is there anything else that aids the deck where the other flavors of stompy have faltered?

[FTW]

Stompy's auto-losses come from internal variance due to bad topdecks: redundant lock pieces, redundant mana, card-disadvantage acceleration. Much of that is inherent to the shell. But that variance gets worse when you needed combinations of the right cards to create threats.

Examples: 2/2 + equipment (the older days), Smokestack + engine (Stax), tribal synergy (Soldier Stompy), Leyline + Helm (Black Stompy). With configurations like that, the variance is worse. Even if you establish your turn 1 prison, you have to get lucky drawing the right combinations of cards to end the game, giving opponent time to draw out of the prison. That's how those decks traditionally faltered. Other builds used fatties as 1-card threats (Faerie Stompy, Demon Stompy) but those fatties had drawbacks (Sea Drake, Rotting Regisaur, Tomb of Urami). If opponent resolves 1 removal, your plan falls apart.

Red Stompy became dominant when it gained multiple 1-card token engines at 2R (Rabblemaster + Warboss), letting it close the game quickly with 1 Gray Ogre and not lose to 1 removal. That was a huge boost for Stompy, something it could never do before, catapulting Red into the frontrunner Stompy archetype for a long time. Then Red kept getting more explosive standalone tools: Chandra, Bonecrusher Giant (2-for-1), Fable of the Mirror-Breaker, Laelia, the Blade Reforged, Caves of Chaos Adventurer. Stompy does better when it can take over the game with 1 topdecked card.

Reeplcheep's Curses used Curse of Misfortunes as a 1-card wincon. That innovation made Black stompy playable again, only needing to resolve 1 card to quickly lock up the game. However it costs 5-mana and is only a 4-of, so there's still variance around drawing it and getting to 5 mana, as well as the "dead slots" for tutor targets. The other win condition (Leyline + Helm) is a 2-card combo. So while the deck was strong, it had more variance and didn't break into Tier 1.

Initiative creatures are 1-card wincons. Even if opponent has removal, Initiative gives you immediately +1 card and threatens to snowball if they can't take it back. Instead of needing to turn Preeminent Captain sideways with Enlistment Officer/Captain of the Watch in hand, white stompy can take over the game just by resolving Adventurer or Dungeoneer. That's a big boost in both resilience and variance reduction! I think that's the main reason why this deck is dominating where past Stompy builds have failed.

The other variance reduction tools are:
1) MDFC lands. ETB untapped colored land that topdecks as a card when flooded.
2) Evoke removal Elementals. Both white and red have them. They can be either turn 1 removal (getting a dead card out of hand) or a slower 2-for-1 creature. Even better with any copy/flicker effects.
3) Channel lands. White's is removal.
4) Manlands. Red plays Den of the Bugbear. White could play Cave of the Frost Dragon, but it's slower to activate and doesn't leave behind a token.

While those tools are in all colors, only the red & white evoke elementals are removal, and the white Channel land is removal.

What else does White have?
White is the only color with a playable 3-mana Initiative creature.
3/3s are bigger than red's 2/2s.
Thalia adds another cheap turn 1 prison piece that disrupts enemy removal on Initiative creatures.

Red stompy should still be good though. Red has Caves of Chaos Adventurer, SB Anarchy, and Blood Moon. These White and Naya manabases are getting greedy and should lose to Turn 1 Moon.

[H]

Should this be in N&D or DTB?

Technically the criteria is a primer, not results. But yeah, it likely ought be moved.


Well DtB hasn't been updated since summer.

Yeah, that is my fault, I used to have a lot more time, but with the old method not really returning good results and a new method not immediately clear to me, not to mention the fact that some of the decks don't even have threads here, I just haven't been able to get it done.

[Barook]

There has been a good summary about the deck recently in this article:

https://minmaxblog.com/a-new-legacy-deck-innit/

[PirateKing]

Yeah, that is my fault, I used to have a lot more time, but with the old method not really returning good results and a new method not immediately clear to me, not to mention the fact that some of the decks don't even have threads here, I just haven't been able to get it done.

I want to be super clear I was never blaming you. Always appreciative of the time you've donated to the site.

FTW: are we just seeing the critical mass of consistency to help the deck survive itself over 6+ rounds? Or is the spectre still there and once the number of people playing the deck drops down it just becomes another D&T/Stompy type of thing?

[FTW]

FTW: are we just seeing the critical mass of consistency to help the deck survive itself over 6+ rounds? Or is the spectre still there and once the number of people playing the deck drops down it just becomes another D&T/Stompy type of thing?

Basically yes. New printings added critical mass of tools for consistency.

MDFC & Channel lands: Reduces variance of flooding on mana, without compromising access to colored sources to cast key cards
Evoke Elementals: Dual role of explosive early interaction or lategame 2-for-1 threat & can pitch an extra land thanks to MDFC
Initiative creatures: Efficient 1-card wincon. Immediate +1 card (thinning Plains from deck). Reduces variance of being unable to end games with durdly bears. Either attack with a 5/5 or scry into another threat.

Naya Initiative is now going 1 step further with Once Upon A Time to improve threat consistency even more.

The Initiative mechanic puts these decks far ahead of past Soldier Stompy/Hatebear Stompy variants. It finally gives fair nonblue a powerful engine for card advantage and consistency, attacking the variance problem instead of just power creeping the beat sticks.

[H]

I want to be super clear I was never blaming you. Always appreciative of the time you've donated to the site.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that you were. Just noting why things haven't really been updated. Let me see if I can work something up though, hopefully soon.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/m6MGorT.jpeg
4.0 in 100% of decks

https://i.imgur.com/wXhrf8Z.jpeg
4.0 in 100% of decks



https://i.imgur.com/ciM8jb9.jpeg
4.0 in 100% of decks




https://i.imgur.com/zJ2MJ0U.jpeg
3.5 in 90% of decks


https://i.imgur.com/8cM8gxt.jpeg
2.0 in 89% of decks


https://i.imgur.com/fjVR41j.jpeg
3.8 in 82% of decks




https://i.imgur.com/94jY925.jpeg
2.5 in 58% of decks


https://i.imgur.com/2nCwKUg.jpeg
3.0 in 42% of decks


https://i.imgur.com/TaDraIe.jpeg
1.7 in 34% of decks







https://i.imgur.com/maTw2x0.jpeg
3.9 in 98% of decks

https://i.imgur.com/iOsRzpe.jpeg
4.0 in 98% of decks


https://i.imgur.com/kHuGC55.jpeg
3.9 in 98% of decks




https://i.imgur.com/hfsa4wT.jpeg
4.0 in 69% of decks


https://i.imgur.com/T0BdavM.jpeg
3.0 in 93% of decks








https://i.imgur.com/ntf7VcT.jpeg
4.0 in 100% of decks


https://i.imgur.com/2RQXDIs.jpeg
3.7 in 100% of decks


https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/City-of-Traitors-EX-265.jpg
3.9 in 100% of decks




https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/Eiganjo-Seat-of-the-Empire-NEO-265.jpg
1.7 in 100% of decks


https://i.imgur.com/0ChQJ3g.jpeg
1.3 in 100% of decks


https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/h/Plains-250-THB-265.jpg
2.7 in 89% of decks

[H]

Thoughts on the above as a start to the primer? Obvious I would then need to add sample lists and try to source some matchup information.

[FTW]

Fair deck is fair: https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/legacy-challenge-2023-01-0812508244

Sunday Legacy Challenge Top 4 was Initiative vs Initiative vs Initiative vs Initiative.
8 other Initiative in the top 32!

Saturday Challenge had 9 Initiative in the Top 32 and 3 in the Top 8, with top finish at 3rd.

McWinSauce earned the name by metagaming for that: cut maindeck resistors (Chalice, Thalia) for StP, OUAT and 5 flicker effects to out-Initiative the mirror in Game 1.

1st Place Jan 8th Legacy Challenge

//Mana: 30
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
2 Karakas
2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
2 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Cavern of Souls

//Core: 12
0 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude

//Other creatures: 6
4 Archon of Emeria
2 Palace Jailer

//Spells: 12
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Touch the Spirit Realm
3 Once Upon A Time
1 Ephemerate

//Sideboard: 15
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Empty-Shrine Kannushi
2 Loran of the Third Path
2 Containment Priest
2 Walking Ballista
1 Aven Mindcensor



2nd Place was on a more standard list with better random matchups but worse mirror match

//Mana: 29
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
1 Karakas
2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
2 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Cavern of Souls

//Core: 16
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude

//Prison: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

//Other creatures: 8
4 Elite Spellbinder
2 Palace Jailer
2 Walking Ballista

//Tricks: 3
3 Touch the Spirit Realm

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Archon of Absolution
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Loran of the Third Path
1 Containment Priest
1 Touch the Spirit Realm




Going into this weekend, it'll be interesting to see if players metagame too hard for the mirror and become vulnerable to combo.


Thoughts on the above as a start to the primer? Obvious I would then need to add sample lists and try to source some matchup information.

It's a good start. There's already a good primer on another site, linked above I think. Maybe that could be included in the primer.

[FTW]

Going into this weekend, it'll be interesting to see if players metagame too hard for the mirror and become vulnerable to combo.

Initiative had a less impressive showing in the Jan 15th Showcase Challenge: https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/legacy-showcase-challenge-2023-01-1512509927

As predicted, most builds were overboarded for the mirror and weaker to combo, while Bryant Cook's TES stormed in to Top 8.

Promidnightz 3rd place Jan 15th Challenge

//Mana: 29
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Emeria's Call
1 Karakas
2 Eiganko, Seat of the Empire
2 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Cavern of Souls

//Core: 16
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 White Plume Adventurer
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Solitude

//Prison: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

//Other creatures: 8
4 Elite Spellbinder
2 Palace Jailer
2 Walking Ballista

//Tricks: 3
3 Touch the Spirit Realm

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Archon of Absolution
2 Containment Priest
1 Loran of the Third Path
1 Null Rod
1 Touch the Spirit Realm


The more traditional list with Chalice still made Top 4.

10th, 11th and 15th place were on the Chalice-less build with Swords & OUAT main, none cracking into Top 8. I don't know if this is just the matchup lottery or variance, but Chalice main still looks better in a broader meta that isn't only Initiative mirrors. The build with 0 Thalia and SB Chalice is much weaker to combo in game 1.

Check out this diverse meta: 10 Delver, 7 Initiative, 7 combo, 3 4c Minsc

Most fair strategies are obsolete. 4c Minsc barely makes it in. Explosive decks got to stomp Initiative builds that built too hard for the mirror, but that may change if Thalia & Chalice become popular again.

Edit: The first place Delver list had 4 maindeck Snuff Out and 3 SB Unchained Berserker, ready to beat Initiative.

[Clark Kant]

How do you think WOTC will respond to Initiative?

1. Do Nothing. Combo and Delver are still putting up wins.

2. Ban White Plume and Expressive Iteration as they are the most powerful new cards in the formats two best decks.

3. Errata the Initiative mechanic in some fashion.

4. Ban Initiative and all Initiative cards from Legacy

[Fox]

How do you think WOTC will respond to Initiative?

1. Do Nothing. Combo and Delver are still putting up wins.

2. Ban White Plume and Expressive Iteration as they are the most powerful new cards in the formats two best decks.

3. Errata the Initiative mechanic in some fashion.

4. Ban Initiative and all Initiative cards from Legacy

The cards only say gain initiative and enter the dungeon. There are no additional characteristics, and the dungeon isn't a magic card. So with zero bans and zero errata to an actual magic card, wotc can just change the dungeon.

So when you look at the current dungeon, the issue is more that they can get to the throne room before the opponent gets to play magic - and that's largely a function of mana cheating. The card we ultimately need to look at is Ancient Tomb, which is propping up the fast mana and free effects (Solitude).

Kind of like Delver where the core problem is Daze, the issue here is Ancient Tomb. So if we're not going to fix the problem, the best solution is to re-route the dungeon so that you have to touch every room before going to the throne room.

[FTW]

So when you look at the current dungeon, the issue is more that they can get to the throne room before the opponent gets to play magic

The bigger issue is that WPA on the play means you enter the 2nd room before opponent even has a chance to enter the 1st room (with creature + evasion or removal).

The 2nd room gives a big advantage to keep the initiative (5/5 vigilance or scry into another threat), and you also get to make a turn 2 play (with +1 free Plains) before they attack, so it's an uphill battle for a fair deck to ever take the initiative. The deck then runs up to 16 removal in the 75 (Solitude, Touch the Spirit Realm, StP, Walking Ballista, Palace Jailer) so good luck attacking back. Even if they kill WPA, you keep entering rooms until opponent can successfully attack you. A deck playing fair magic with 1 1cc turn 1 play just can't perform enough game actions in time to keep up with that.

The only fair deck that keeps up is Delver, because it also cheats on tempo. It can play a turn 1 creature + hold up Force of Will/Daze/Snuff Out, so it can perform enough actions fast enough to be relevant.

But if you're on T1 Forest GSZ into Arbor go? Or T1 Vial go? Haha. Good luck.

Edit: It looks like more decks are coming to the tempo battle to fight Initiative
Hammer Time won last Saturday's Challenge (with 4 SB Mana Tithe!!).
Death's Shadow also made top 8 with 4 Grief + 4 Snuff Out on top of Force and Daze, to play the tempo game
4c Minsc won the Sunday Challenge with 3 Dress Down 2 Terminus.

Initiative probably needs to maindeck Chalice to fight these 1cc decks trying to race.

[Purple Blood]

This version played by ThrabenU seems to be a lot more powerful than the GR version. Many of his hands basically demand a Force and/or Plow otherwise its a turn 2 kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh6tAp19Kuo

[the Thin White Duke]

This version played by ThrabenU seems to be a lot more powerful than the GR version. Many of his hands basically demand a Force and/or Plow otherwise its a turn 2 kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh6tAp19Kuo

This looks like blast to play. I was thinking of shifting to a mono red build, but Winota is such cheese. I'll give this a try.