[Deck] Green Initiative Stompy

[Clark Kant]

Undermountain Adventurer is very underrated (largely because its not on MTGO). In addition to giving us Initiative, its a solid body and has a very relevent abilty. I actually think the card is strong enough to build a deck around...

Green Initiative Stompy

//Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Once Upon A Time
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Sylvan Library
1 Trinisphere

//Threats
4 Undermountain Adventurer
1 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Outland Liberator
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Malanthrope
1 Endurance
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Questing Beast
1 Elder Gargaroth
1 Avenging Hunter
1 Old One Eye

//Mana
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
3 Turntimber Symbiosis
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Lotus Petal

//Sideboard
3 Choke
3 Force of Vigor
2 Endurance
2 Veil of Summer
1 Trinisphere
1 Toxicrene
1 Run Afoul
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap

I am curious if there are any excellent anticombo or powerful but narrow green creatures that warrant a maindeck or sideboard slot as potential Zenith targets. Fiend Artisan is probably too slow and Collector Ouphe could easily be moved to the board due to its nonbo with Chrome Mox but its strength against a wide variety of opposing decks made me want to maindeck it. Green has some interesting fight based removal options as well that should probably be slotted in somewhere. A light white splash for more initiative creatures or a light red splash to play Caves of Chaos Adventurer and some Minsc and Boo and Pyroblasts in the board is an option, but splashing also makes the deck less consistent.

Edit: I have since switched over to the red splash alluded to above in the OP for the two very powerful threats, Minsc & Boo and Caves of Choas Adventurer as well as to be able to abuse SSG and win games off of Blood Moon.

Red Green Initiative Stompy

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
2 Trinisphere
2 Once Upon A Time

//Threats
4 Fable of the Mirror Breaker
4 Minsc & Boo
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Caves of Choas Adventurer
4 Fury

//Mana
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal (Chrome Mox or more lands could also work)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Shatterskull Smashing
1 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Taiga

//Sideboard
3 Choke
3 Force of Vigor
3 Endurance
2 Dead/Gone
1 Blood Moon

I am still testing Once Upon a Time (as just a 2 of for now) to get a better sense of how often Once Upon a Time fails to find something relevant in this list. It’s possible Once Upon a Time proves to be quite effective as it substantially increases the probability of being able to open with a Sol Land + ESG/SSG + Threat on turn one, Once Upon A Time is able to grab any of those three pieces that you need to make this play.

I think overall Fable of the Mirror Breaker is a much stronger card than Bonecrusher Giant as it fills several different roles. However if Once Upon a Time proves very effective and becomes a staple 4 of, replacing some Fables for a creature like Giant makes sense.

Below is the green list but incorporating Natural Order as this manabase is perfectly suitable for NO if we stay mono green.

Mono Green NO Initiative Stompy

//Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide

//Creatures
4 Undermountain Adventurer
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Cankerbloom
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Llanowar Visionary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Endurance
1 Malanthrope
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Questing Beast
1 Elder Gargaroth
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier
1 Progenitus
1 Old One Eye

//Mana
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
3 Turntimber Symbiosis
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

//Sideboard
3 Choke
3 Force of Vigor
2 Endurance
2 Veil of Summer
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Run Afoul
1 Trinisphere
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxicrene

In this Natural Order build, I cut the Once Upon a Times to accommodate 4 Zeniths and 4 more green creatures that have a powerful etb effect and thus dont mind being sacced to Natural Order. I wanted 3 NO targets since you really want a good target for the NO to still be in your library once it resolves. Atraxa and Progenitus are auto includes but the third alternative is difficult to narrow down. 42/60 cards are creatures or lands so Torsten also draws you 4 cards, a budget Atraxa of sorts. However Archon of Valor’s Reach and Ruric Thar are excellent versus combo decks and Titan of Industry has tons of utility in virtually any scenario.

Toxicrene is a GSZ target that shuts down Lands and Marit Lage strategies. Absolutely deserves atleast a sideboard slot but might be good enough to warrant a maindeck slot since it also has reach and deathtouch.

Malanthrope is a GSZ target that does the same thing Endurance does, but it also pitches to FoW and in the midgame, it often doubles as a very large beater that can go toe to toe with Murktide and clocks 2-3x as fast as Endurance. It can't be flashed in like Endurance so there is no reason to play multiple copies, but GSZing an Endurance also only occurs at sorcery speed, so Malanthrope is the perfect e 1 of GSZ target when you want a giant beat stick.

Old One Eye is the perfect alternate NO target for the occasions when both NO targets (1x Atraxa and 1x Progenitus) are out of the library. Its 11 power trampler with recursion so it clocks just as fast as any NO target, but its almost just as easy to hardcast as Elder Gargaroth. There is no reason for a 3rd NO target if we add an Old One Eye to the list. It has now replaced Elder Gargaroth as the deck's hardcastable curve topper, though Atraxa is also hardcastable off of either Hieratch or Toxicrene.

[Zoid]

The hunter seems really meh.

Wouldn't you rather go for Sarevok's Tome and go for fatties?
This list looks like NO would also slot in there somewhere.

Is Cankerbloom better than Liberator?

[Clark Kant]

The hunter seems really meh.

Wouldn't you rather go for Sarevok's Tome and go for fatties?
This list looks like NO would also slot in there somewhere.

Is Cankerbloom better than Liberator?
Solid suggestions.

Hunter costs one more mana than it should have but still, the 5/4 trampler is better than tome especially when accounting for Once Upon a Time. 4 toughness means its out of bolt range and bigger than all the 3/3s and 3/4s in Delver and White Initiative decks.

I cant imagine the proliferate in cankerbloom mattering. The 3 power IS a nice bonus but Liberator can deal with multiple artifacts and enchantments if it flips and Chalice and Trini can help it flip. It also flips if your Urzas Saga opponent is using their mana and land drops to make constructs, it can usually take out atleast two constructs in that situation or can force your opponent to play a spell thereby preventing the creation of one of the constructs and can take out the other.

[Clark Kant]

This list looks like NO would also slot in there somewhere.

Natural Order has potential due to Atraxa Grand Unifier. But the deck would need a good density of cheap creatures it doesnt mind saccing, so far Dryad Arbor is the only such creature. Also a countered NO is a 2 for 1 loss for you so you need cards that help make sure NO doesnt get countered. So the deck would look very different than this. This list is just about playing powerful threats one after another until one sticks and wins you the game.

I prefer Natural Order in a deck with discard and FoW to help it resolve such as Blue Nic Fit ala the list I posted in the Nic Fit thread…

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Suns Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Ponder
1 Noble Hierach
2 Veteran Explorer
3 Ice Fang Coatl
1 Grist
1 Malanthrope
1 Endurance
1 Uro, Titan
1 Undermountain Adventurer
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Questing Beast
1 Old One Eye
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier
1 Progenitus
21 Lands

SB: 1 Toxicrene

Unlike every other Nic Fit list, this actually has game against combo due to its 6 discard effects and 4 FoW. Atraxa even pitches to FoW. Vet Explorer is awesome at ramping you so hardcasting Atraxa using Noble Hieratch for the white mana or using Zenith to cast it is perfectly doable.

I added cheap creatures that have a powerful etb effects and thus dont mind being sacced to Natural Order. (So Knight of Autumn, Eternal Witness and Reclaimation Sage are preferred to Outland Liberator).

I also wanted 2-3 NO targets since they pitch to FoW/Endurance and you really want a good target for the NO to still be in your library once it resolves. Atraxa and Progenitus are auto includes and decided on Old One Eye for the third NO target since its a two turn recurring clock that is easy to hardcast.

Alternative potential NO targets include…
Old One Eye
Titan of Industry
Archon of Valor’s Reach
Ruric Thar
Tyrranax Rex
Torsten, Founder of Benalia
38/60 cards are creatures or lands so Torsten also draws you 4 cards, a budget Atraxa of sorts. However Archon of Valor’s Reach and Ruric Thar are excellent versus combo decks and Titan of Industry has tons of utility in virtually any scenario.

[Zupponn]

Hi, I've been playing a mono green stompy list for about a year and a half now and would recommend trying Garruk Wildspeaker. He is very good with the sol lands. One of the best plays the deck has is Garruk into Trinisphere.

Hexdrinker is also easy to level up with the sol lands and can get around your own Chalice with either Allosaurus Shepherd or using Green Sun's.

[FTW]

You could go up to 3 or 4 Allosaurus Shepherd, since it has no anti-synergy with Chalice (Chalice does not counter it). It gives more early creatures and also helps ensure your 4 mana initiative guy isn't countered by FoW or Daze.

Avenging Hunter seems too slow at 5 mana, getting raced by white decks (remember they have a lot of removal so being bigger than 3/3 isn't enough to catch up).
Note you already have 4x Initiative at 4 mana (Adventurer) and 4x Initiative at 5 mana (GSZ into Adventurer) so adding more 5 mana Initiative isn't what the deck is missing. It would be nice to have more Initiative at 4 mana or 3 mana. How else could you get it at 4 mana?
- Natural Order into Initiative creature
- Sarevok's Tome (also helps cast Turntimber Symbiosis into big creature)
- splash white for White Plume Adventurer or red for Caves of Chaos
Any of those plans should help get Initiative faster (which is what Initiative decks really need)

Endurance is very strong against many decks (even as a surprise 3/4 blocker vs Initiative). You could play more copies main.

[Clark Kant]

I love Natural Order and I am open to trying it (eventhough I feel its far stronger in the list I posted above that plays FoW, Thoughtseize and Cabal T to make sure it resolves and Brainstorm to shuffle back in NO targets).

Here is how I am considering incorporating it into this deck…

//Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide

//Creatures
4 Undermountain Adventurer
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Outland Liberator
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Llanowar Visionary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Malanthrope
1 Endurance
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Questing Beast
1 Elder Gargaroth
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier
1 Progenitus
1 Old One Eye

//Mana
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
3 Turntimber Symbiosis
3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth

//Sideboard
3 Choke
3 Force of Vigor
2 Endurance
2 Veil of Summer
1 Run Afoul
1 Trinisphere
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Toxicrene

I cut the Once Upon a Times to add 4 more creatures that have a powerful etb effect and thus dont mind being sacced to Natural Order. I wanted 3 NO targets since you really want a good target for the NO to still be in your library once it resolves. Atraxa and Progenitus are auto includes but the third alternative is difficult to narrow down. 42/60 cards are creatures or lands so Torsten also draws you 4 cards, a budget Atraxa of sorts. However Archon of Valor’s Reach and Ruric Thar are excellent versus combo decks and Titan of Industry has tons of utility in virtually any scenario.

[FTW]

If you're worried about resolving Natural Order, FoW and Thoughtseize protect it, but so does Allosaurus Shepherd in monogreen. Allosaurus makes NO uncounterable and also gives a creature to sacrifice.

I think you can get away with 3 NO, and then only 2 NO targets (Progenitus/Archon, Atraxa). If for some reason both NO targets are out of library, you can always NO into Elder Gargaroth or Undermountain Adventurer. That should be better than running too many expensive cards you can't cast.

[Clark Kant]

I hadn't paid any attention to the Warhammer set and just saw on reddit that there are a couple of cards from that set that are must includes in GSZ decks, but arent out on MTGO yet so no one pays attention to them (the same way that Minsc&Boo and the Initiative creatures flew under the radar for months).

Toxicrene
Malanthrope
Old One Eye

Toxicrene is a GSZ target that shuts down Lands and Marit Lage strategies. Absolutely deserves atleast a sideboard slot but might be good enough to warrant a maindeck slot since it also has reach and deathtouch.

Malanthrope is a GSZ target that does the same thing Endurance does, but it also pitches to FoW and in the midgame, it often doubles as a very large beater that can go toe to toe with Murktide and clocks 2-3x as fast as Endurance. It can't be flashed in like Endurance so there is no reason to play multiple copies, but GSZing an Endurance also only occurs at sorcery speed, so Malanthrope is the perfect e 1 of GSZ target when you want a giant beat stick.

Old One Eye is the perfect alternate NO target for the occasions when both NO targets (1x Atraxa and 1x Progenitus) are out of the library. Its 11 power trampler with recursion so it clocks just as fast as any NO target, but its almost just as easy to hardcast as Elder Gargaroth. There is no reason for a 3rd NO target if we add an Old One Eye to the list. It could easily replace Elder Gargaroth slot as the deck's hardcastable curve topper.

I will be updating my above lists to incorporate these three cards.

[Clark Kant]

Proxied the cards up and Old One Eye is insane. 11 power trample damage is a lot.

Also the fact that you can hardcast Atraxa using Toxicrene and Undermountain Adventurer is very relevant.

Both are autoincludes imo.

Should I still play a Progenitus since its an out vs Karakas. Toxicrene shuts off Karakas too.

So either I should cut the 4th Natural Order and the Progentius and add Toxicrene and another blue card (Misdirection or Misstep or Ponder),

Or if I keep Progenitus in, then I should still play 4 NOs since I would now be playing 3 excellent targets for NO.

Lastly, its a damn shame that Arcane Proxy cant be pitched to Force. Because the card could be great in the deck, but I need to prioritize keeping the blue count up for FoW

[Clark Kant]

I have now switched over to the red splash like I alluded to in the OP for Minsc&Boo and Caves of Choas Adventurer. It turns out, the splash is completely justifiable, the red cards are quite powerful.


//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blood Moon
2 Trinisphere
2 Once Upon A Time

//Threats
4 Fable of the Mirror Breaker
4 Minsc & Boo
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Caves of Choas Adventurer
4 Fury

//Mana
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal (Chrome Mox or more lands could also work)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Shatterskull Smashing
1 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Taiga

//Sideboard
3 Choke
3 Force of Vigor
3 Endurance
2 Dead/Gone
1 Blood Moon

[FTW]

The RG plan looks much stronger!

Based on what works well in other Initiative decks, I think you need more creatures/removal to keep the Initiative. Bonecrusher Giant seems strong for that.

31 mana sources also seems like too many. You could cut a few Spirit Guides and play a few Once Upon A Time, which helps find both mana and threats. Cutting Blood Moon should help your mana too (Blood Sun is an option).

[Clark Kant]

Fair points.

I went ahead and cut a mana source and a Trinisphere to try out 2 Once Upon a Time (updated list above) to get a better sense of how often Once Upon a Time fizzles in this list. It’s possible Once Upon a Time proves to be quite effective as it substantially increases the probability of being able to open with a Sol Land + ESG/SSG + Threat on turn one, Once Upon A Time is able to grab any of those three pieces that you need to make this play.

I think overall Fable of the Mirror Breaker is a much stronger card than Bonecrusher Giant as it fills several different roles. However if Once Upon a Time proves very effective and becomes a staple 4 of, replacing some Fables for a creature like Giant makes sense.

[FTW]

OUAT should be strong exactly because it fixes everything you need on turn 1: Sol Land, Spirit Guide, Initiative creature. It should just increase consistency of big turn 1 plays! Then later in the game it helps dig past the mana to find more threats. It's so good that RW Initiative decks splash green just for OUAT ("Naya Initiative" is Tier 1).

Overall Fable is a very strong card. However it's not a tool that would help keep the Initiative or steal it back (2/2 too small). It's a much slower and grindier card, while the Initiative plan is a lot about tempo and steamrolling the game. Initiative already provides the card advantage and digging that Fable normally would, as long as you have the tools to keep the Initiative. Definitely test both if you can. I just have a feeling Bonecrusher will prove useful.

For reference Mono W Initiative runs 4 Solitude + 2 Walking Ballista + 2 Palace Jailer + 4 Swords to Plowshares + 4 Touch the Spirit Realm in the 75. That's a whole lot of removal, although sometimes 6 of them are in the SB. The game plan is to stick a fast Initiative creature and then stop opponent from ever attacking back, until you get through several rooms and just run away with the game. That plan really abuses T1 Initiative. Its best when many of the cards aren't dead when opponent has no creatures (Solitude, Ballista, Jailer, Touch). In red Fury is great. I suspect Bonecrusher would also shine because it fills that role - fast removal & threat that isn't dead vs creatureless decks. Needs testing.

[Clark Kant]

Youre right. I was enamored by the idea of constantly making copies of your initiative creature with the mirror breaker to advances two spots in the dungeon every turn, but maybe that is win more.

Bonecrusher is nice but it cant answer Murktide/Dark Depths like Solitude can. Wish there was a red or green creature that bounces creatures or kills flyers.

Maybe Ill cut the 4 Fable for 2 more OuaT, 1-2 Bonecrusher and play Magus of the Moon instead of Blood Moon (or a 2/2 split of 2Magus and 2Blood Moon). Magus can be grabbed with OuaT decreasing the odds of OuaT failing to find a threat when your hand is already full of Mana), and Magus can prevent the UU for Murktide, hurts lands and is a lightning rod for your opponents creature removal letting your bigger threats survive.

[Wrath of Pie]

Bonecrusher is nice but it cant answer Murktide/Dark Depths like Solitude can. Wish there was a red or green creature that bounces creatures or kills flyers.
Poor Stingscourger is forgotten about.

[FTW]

There are expensive and unplayable options like Stingerfling Spider, Elvish Skysweeper, and Hammerheim Deadeye. Stingscourger may be the most efficient option.

Vivien Reid is also a card with many useful modes, but it doesn't kill Marit Lage and is way too slow vs Murktide+Daze.

[Tobitzki]

The card you're missing for removal is Mawloc (much better than BCG!)

GR Initiative already exists & has been featured heavily on 90smtg over the past month or so--start here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw8aEqp3b8k&list=PLakHnJvOjoOfRcot2e1PugGP2SqtKQqf2&index=36

This is not to say, don't brew, just build on the experience already out there.

I've been playing around with GR since late last year & just ditched Birds of Paradise and Tinder Wall for GSZ & the full sets of Spirit Guides, which seems correct. Also been progressively cutting almost all the prison pieces: the deck just wants to slam big fat bangers & overwhelm the board rather than hide behind a Blood Moon or Chalice and chip in with Goblins. This is also why I'm still unsure about Fable. The card is obviously fantastic (but as has been pointed out in this thread) it's more grind than aggro.

[FTW]

Thanks for posting the video!

So 8 Spirit Guides, 4 GSZ, cut Moon. Cut Chalice too? Chalice in the SB?

Mawloc looks good. It still doesn't answer the creatures Clark mentioned, so maybe Stingscourger still has a role in the 75?

[Zupponn]

maybe Stingscourger still has a role in the 75?

If you're not tutoring for Stingscourger or have another reason to want it for being a creature, it's probably better to just run Dead/Gone.

[FTW]

The reason for it to be a creature is Initiative Stompy wants creatures, to either chump opponent's attacker or attack and take the Initiative. Stingscourger is not just Unsummon but also blocks. That means if you have the Initiative but a tapped creature (attacked) and opponent has 2 creatures, Stingscourger stops both from taking the Initiative (bounce one, block the other). Or you can choose to pay the Echo if you flood out and then you still have a blocker. That seems considerably better than Dead//Gone, which only holds off 1 creature and costs more mana to do so.

That doesn't even include the creature synergies with OUAT, Fable, the final dungeon room, etc.

Edit: Based on the feedback from 90sMTG, I am looking at this


//Mana: 30
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Shatterskull Smashing

//Spells: 8
4 Once Upon A Time
4 Green Sun's Zenith

//Threats: 22
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
4 Mawloc
4 Fury

//Sideboard: 15
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Endurance
2 Force of Vigor
1 Meltdown
1 Anarchy
2 Stingscourger
2 Trinisphere


Without the prison pieces, it feels low on early plays. It probably needs more beatdown at 3 mana. Fable could work. Bonecrusher also fits that spot.
Maybe regular old Tarmogoyf?

[Captain Hammer]

Stingscourger would be better if it had flash. But by todays standards, it really should cost 2R and not have echo.

I would cut either OuaT or the GSZ package to play 4 Chalice and 2-3 Trini.

Otherwise you are straight up conceding game 1 to every combo deck. Plus, game 1, ur delver has no answer to chalice/trini

So overall, I like the rg list in the op more than that list from the rg discord. In fact, I think that if the op list replaced blood moon with magus of the moon and replaced the fable with either goyf or mawloc, the list is perfect.

I imagine this is most optimal verison…

Red Green Initiative Stompy

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Trinisphere

//Threats
4 Once Upon A Time
4 Minsc & Boo
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Caves of Choas Adventurer
4 Fury
3 Mawloc

//Mana
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Shatterskull Smashing
1 Boseiju, Who Endures

//Sideboard
3 Endurance
2 Choke
2 Cursed Mirror
2 Force of Vigor
1 Meltdown
1 Anarchy
1 Mawloc
1 Vandalblast
1 Run Afoul
1 Dead/Gone

Maybe moon isnt needed. Mawloc is better against delvers and against other initiative decks.

Chalice and Trinisphere turn 1 either draw out a FoW 2 for 1ing your opponent and clear the path for your initiative creature, or outright win the game too often not to play.

[FTW]

Yeah, you're probably right. When drafting the other list, the SB had to immediately start with 4 Chalice to not auto-lose to combo. Chalice is probably better main. It's only bad in Initiative/stompy mirrors. 3Sphere seems good too, since this deck has more ways to make turn 1 3sphere than most stompy shells.

OUAT is amazing here. I agree GSZ should be the cut. I added it on recommendation from Tobitzki, but it's underwhelming. It takes 5 mana to get Initiative and doesn't have many great targets for less mana, unless you radically change the threat package. Too slow.

I don't like Moon here since it can sabotage your fetch/Taiga when you need green mana. The manabase is a bit unreliable to get stable access to both colors (e.g. Mawloc), and powering out turn 1 Moon could just make that worse. Blood Moon is also risky vs Dark Depths decks with Boseiju/FoV (i.e. all of them), since they can use your own card to help them make EOT 20/20 and kill you. Magus of the Moon risks the same thing vs creature removal. Basically, Moon is not a stable plan to stop Depths anymore. Nowadays they can EOT remove it and it helps them combo off without wasting a Stage/land. So without Stingscourger and with only 1 Dead//Gone, what is your plan vs Marit Lage? Or Show & Tell fatties? Reanimator threats? Big Murktide? Run Afoul is a decent plan against all of them. Maybe more copies of that.

Instead of Moon effects, another option is to play Blood Sun. An older version of RG stompy used to do that. Blood Sun hates on fetches, Saga, and Stage-Depths without hurting your own colored mana or enabling Marit Lages. All you have to do is change the manabase away from fetches. Instead of
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain

Switch it up to
3 Taiga
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Then you even have the option for Punishing Fire in the SB.

I don't know if Choke is where you want to be against blue. All the prison pieces are already relevant against blue so they're not coming out. That means cutting threats, in a deck that already has 30 mana sources + 6-8 prison. Then you cut threats for more prison & make OUAT worse. The risk of losing to internal variance (flooding on non-threats) is high. Instead of Choke, your anti-blue slot could be a proactive uncounterable threat like Shifting Ceratops or Thrun, the Last Troll. Both dodge Force, Daze, blasts, Bolt, Decay, Ending. Ceratops blocks Murktide. Thrun dodges StP. Different advantages. Chandra, Awakened Inferno or Carnage Tyrant are also options vs slow blue, but 6 mana is a lot (unplayable vs blue tempo), while the 4-mana guys are probably relevant more often.


Stingscourger would be better if it had flash. But by todays standards, it really should cost 2R and not have echo.

There are several Man-o'-War variants that have been around for years. Unfortunately none in RG.

The main counterargument here is that if you're playing Stingscourger in an aggressive tempo-oriented deck (Initiative plan falls into this), then you often get value without paying the Echo just by having a blocker up for 1 turn. Unfortunately it's bad against EOT Marit Lage or Sneak Attack-Emrakul, and much better in an Aether Vial deck.

[Tobitzki]

couple of points:

- GSZ is for T1 ramp (Dryad Arbor), for finding Mawloc as well as, post-board, Ouphe & such (Painter strong rn). Late-game Initiative creatures #9 - X. (stuff like Hexdrinker is just a cute cherry on top). So the flexibility is great, but I also wouldn't play the full playset (on 2 currently). And I agree: OuaT is more important here

- I like the old Blood Sun stuff, but I'm afraid P Fire & TKS have been powercrept out of the format. One cool thing to do with the colorless mana from Grove or Karplusan Forest is Eldrazi Obliterator.

- if you're so concerned with Marit Lage, just throw in a couple of Dead//Gone

- Shifting Ceratops probably not great as long as Delver plays Snuff Out

- Chalice is a controversial topic rn: white initiative players seem to be split on it. I personally would rather maindeck Bolts/Swords than Chalice in the current format, but obviously Chalice is a strong card that wins games on its own. As for folding to combo: I've had good success with 2-3 The Stone Brain in addition to Trinisphere and red blasts. For Reanimator and Breakfast I like 3 Faerie Macabre. You'll have to pick yr poison, though, and probably can't build a SB with tools for every combo deck.

Here's my current build for reference. Jegantha is a budget consideration (not buying Fury & Endurance right now)--that aspect of the deck is not optimal, but I also haven't really missed Chalice & the pitch elementals, and every once in a while the Elk does come in handy.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5264006#paper

[Clark Kant]

Red Green Initiative Stompy

//Disruption
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Trinisphere

//Threats
4 Once Upon A Time
4 Minsc & Boo
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Caves of Choas Adventurer
4 Fury
3 Mawloc

//Mana
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Shatterskull Smashing
1 Boseiju, Who Endures

//Sideboard
3 Endurance
2 Choke
2 Cursed Mirror
2 Force of Vigor
1 Meltdown
1 Anarchy
1 Mawloc
1 Vandalblast
1 Run Afoul
1 Dead/Gone


Endurance and the 4th Mawloc are both better creatures than Magus of the Moon. And I think Lotus Petal is better than Chrome Mox since our whole thing is getting an explosive turn 1 every game. Otherwise the list looks perfect.

Endurance is great against most combo decks. Mawloc is mostly useless against combo but is quite a bit better against creature decks and it also pitches to Fury. Both are great against the current top decks (Delver and Initiative). Endurance is better against Delver and Mawloc is better vs Initiative but both cards are far better than Magus against those matchups.

Momo321 just 5-0ed with the below list…

Artifact (11)
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal

Creature (23)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Progenitus
3 Endurance
4 Ignoble Hierarch
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
1 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier
1 Tyrranax Rex

Land (18)
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
Planeswalker (4)
4 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
Sorcery (4)
4 Natural Order

Sideboard (15)
2 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Torpor Orb
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Abrade
3 Allosaurus Shepherd

34 mana sources (counting ignoble, lotus petal and the spirit guides) seems like a lot!

MTGO doesn’t yet have Undermountain Adventurer or Mawloc and without Mawloc, the red count falls a bit too low for Fury. And with 12 fewer beaters OuaT becomes too unreliable as a way of reliably getting a win condition out on turn one. Momo’s list instead plays a Natural Order package with 3 tutor targets, Endurance and Ignoble Hierarch in those slots, and it plays Lotus Petal instead of Chrome Mox.

What are people’s thoughts on Ignoble+NO? I think its worth playing only until MTGO gets Undermountain and Mawloc. On paper, NO lists should definitely play Old One Eye as the the backup third NO target instead of Tyrranax Rex since Old One Eye is almost as good and far easier to hardcast.

Im also curious to hear people’s thoughts on Chrome Mox vs Lotus Petal. Is Petal better since our whole thing is getting an explosive turn 1 every game. Or is Chrome Mox better as a permanent source since we already play 8 one shot mana sources in the spirit guides.

[MD.Ghost]

I would think about something like this:

// Deck: Jund Stompy (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 City of Traitors
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
2 Taiga

// Creatures
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Endurance
4 Mawloc
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Other
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Lotus Petal
3 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
4 Once Upon a Time

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Choke/Blood Moon/Blood Sun/Magus...
SB: 3 Collector Ouphe
SB: 3 Fury
SB: 3 Punishing Fire
SB: 3 Thought-Knot Seer

You get a bunch of fast Starts, get Initiative rolling and have some options vs Creatures and Combo as well.

Sideboard is Made with OUAT in mind vs most Matchups - find what you need. TKS shouldnt be so bad and could easily replace Mawloc vs Combo etc. PF + Furry + Mawloc should keep most creature Decks in check too.

[Clark Kant]

White Green Initiative Stompy (and RW Initiative Stompy) is now officially a thing thanks to White Plume’s ban. Curious what the final list will end up looking like…

4 Once Upon A Time
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Archon of Emeria
4 Touch the Spirit Realm
4 Solitude
3 Thalia
3 Elite Spellbinder
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal
4 City
4 Tomb
10 GW Lands

is what I am picturing.

Basically White Initiative Stompy but replace White Plume with Undermountain and playing 4 OuaT, 4 ESG and very few other green cards pre board.

[MD.Ghost]

White Green Initiative Stompy (and RW Initiative Stompy) is now officially a thing thanks to White Plume’s ban. Curious what the final list will end up looking like…

4 Once Upon A Time
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Seasoned Dungeoneer
4 Archon of Emeria
4 Touch the Spirit Realm
4 Solitude
3 Thalia
3 Elite Spellbinder
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal
4 City
4 Tomb
10 GW Lands

is what I am picturing.

Basically White Initiative Stompy but replace White Plume with Undermountain and playing 4 OuaT, 4 ESG and very few other green cards pre board.

Dont get why you only want 3 Thalia - even DnT played the full set (and that in the days before Solitude or even Chrome Mox pitch option). Solitude itself gets weaker with OUAT and green/red Options like Spirit Guides or Initiative Cards, so a full set isnt as juicy here. I would also never play a White Version without Displacer here (but i get thats a personal choice, that gets better if you count less on chrome mox or solitude card effects)

I think RG now is valid too, cause the biggest push for white was the Orc thanks to cc3 and the ability to slam it on the field as early as possible and with less mana sources compared to all the cc4 initiative cards.

The RG shell comes with 8 spirit guides and much more aggressiv cards. You only suffer vs combo (white really shines here) cause you don't have hate cards printed as creatures besides Endurance (which isnt bad at main, cause its not only solid vs Delver, it also is active vs Graveyard Decks cause Reanimator gets some upwind now with Atraxa).

[Clark Kant]

I would think about something like this:

// Deck: Jund Stompy (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 City of Traitors
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
2 Taiga

// Creatures
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Endurance
4 Mawloc
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Other
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Lotus Petal
3 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Choke/Blood Moon/Blood Sun/Magus...
SB: 3 Collector Ouphe
SB: 3 Fury
SB: 3 Punishing Fire
SB: 3 Thought-Knot Seer

You get a bunch of fast Starts, get Initiative rolling and have some options vs Creatures and Combo as well.

Sideboard is Made with OUAT in mind vs most Matchups - find what you need. TKS shouldnt be so bad and could easily replace Mawloc vs Combo etc. PF + Furry + Mawloc should keep most creature Decks in check too.

Thats very juicy. I love it. Its been ages since I played Grove + Punishing Fire so I have no idea if its any good (a lot more creatures seem to be /3s rather than x/2s) but theres still many x/2s and Fire can even take out x/4s so thats a non issue.

Love the synergy between TKS and Grove. I had honestly forgotten that the Eldrazi exist.

Now that Undermountain (and hopefully Mawloc, Toxicrene and Old One Eye) are making it to MTGO, do Ignoble and NO still have a role in the deck, or…

Would Momo321s list be better served by more big creatures and ouat ala…

Artifact (10)
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal

Creature (25)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Endurance
3 Mawloc
2 Fury

Spell (4)
4 Once Upon a time

Planeswalker (4)
4 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes

Land (17)
3 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 City of Traitors

Are two basic lands enough, if not, the third should be an extra forest right?
Does Fury belong in the list?
Does Ignoble?
Does Endurance?
Does City of Traitors?
Does Boseiju, Who Endures?
Does Chrome Mox?

[FTW]

I would think about something like this:

// Deck: Jund Stompy (60)

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 City of Traitors
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
2 Taiga

// Creatures
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Endurance
4 Mawloc
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// Other
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Lotus Petal
3 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Choke/Blood Moon/Blood Sun/Magus...
SB: 3 Collector Ouphe
SB: 3 Fury
SB: 3 Punishing Fire
SB: 3 Thought-Knot Seer

You get a bunch of fast Starts, get Initiative rolling and have some options vs Creatures and Combo as well.

Sideboard is Made with OUAT in mind vs most Matchups - find what you need. TKS shouldnt be so bad and could easily replace Mawloc vs Combo etc. PF + Furry + Mawloc should keep most creature Decks in check too.

Where's the OUAT?

Yeah, I like the old Blood Sun builds with Grove, Punishing Fire and TKS. Blood Sun has to be maindeck for that build to make sense. It punishes most decks and doesn't hurt this deck, and it cantrips, so there's little reason not to play 3-4 main. Maybe play 3ball in the board instead?

Is TKS too slow to be maindeckable now? It does have a lot of new competition at 4 mana. It makes sense as tech vs spell-heavy decks where Mawloc is bad.

I don't think you need both Punishing Fire and Fury. Fury should be enough. Save the PFire slots for another matchup.

[MD.Ghost]

Where's the OUAT?

Yeah, I like the old Blood Sun builds with Grove, Punishing Fire and TKS. Blood Sun has to be maindeck for that build to make sense. It punishes most decks and doesn't hurt this deck, and it cantrips, so there's little reason not to play 3-4 main. Maybe play 3ball in the board instead?

Is TKS too slow to be maindeckable now? It does have a lot of new competition at 4 mana. It makes sense as tech vs spell-heavy decks where Mawloc is bad.

I don't think you need both Punishing Fire and Fury. Fury should be enough. Save the PFire slots for another matchup.

SORRY - 4x OUAT is in the deck, missed to write down one of the best cards ;) Full playset cause it nearly find everything and i builded the sideboard with OUAT in mind too - at least in most cases.

Blood Sun - yeah, never really used it. Feel it can work here. I think it depends on the Meta, i mean it cant be found with OUAT so if you want it maindeck the only Slots are Trinisphere and Mincs Walker here. So it depends on the local meta. But yes it may has a wider impact vs random matchups than trinisphere.

TKS could be in the Mincs Slot but overall you go down on GR in this case. So i think it deserves as a good additional Hate at Sideboard, unless you have a Meta that need to be tuned vs Combo G1.

PFire will depend on the meta too, now without White Plume taking over the meta, we may see a little comeback from other fair creature decks, besides Elves (which is never a fair creature deck ;) ) having access to Fury and PFire should break all these Matchups easily. I mean vs DnT, Elves you cut a Playset of Endurance here, moving up with Trinisphere vs Creature Decks, means already 7 slots that could be changed without much trouble.

With the build above you have 9 Slots vs Elves (Fury, PF, TKS) and could use 9 too vs DnT (Fury, PF and Oophe).

Without Zenith or other real manipulation it comes down to OUAT to find the right sideboard spells, means for me 3 shouldnt be the least number to get out some randomness. Finding a one off solution in a non blue shell is more a joke in most decks too.

[FTW]

Ah OK good. OUAT is great!


Blood Sun - yeah, never really used it. Feel it can work here. I think it depends on the Meta, i mean it cant be found with OUAT so if you want it maindeck the only Slots are Trinisphere and Mincs Walker here. So it depends on the local meta. But yes it may has a wider impact vs random matchups than trinisphere.

My point was that the 4x Grove manabase is for RG builds with maindeck Blood Sun. It also helps Punishing Fire and TKS. If none of those cards are main and Blood Sun is a "maybe", then why play that mana instead of Taiga + fetches? That is a Blood Sun stompy manabase.

If you play maindeck Blood Sun, the logical place for it is over 3sphere. The noncreature slots don't have much room. Replacing a creature seems bad. Playing Blood Sun instead of 3ball also makes boarding into Fury better.

You could play Zenith as a 2-of and then have SB singletons like Collector Ouphe (equivalent to 3 copies). That frees up some SB space to run a wider package. Otherwise yeah, you need multiples for consistency. What about playing multiple Force of Vigor instead of multiple Collector Ouphe? Ouphe is stronger in specific scenarios, but Force works against a wider range of things.

[Clark Kant]

Currently trying a 2/2 split between Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal to determine which I like more, but maybe the 2/2 split will end up proving the best. You never want multiple chrome mox in a game so it doesnt make sense to play 4 Chrome Mox. And playing 12 one shot mana sources might be too much, and only 18 permanent sources in a deck this mana hungry maybe too little, so a 10 one shot, 20 permanent sources configuration seems logical to try.

Trying out 3 OuaT instead of 4 as that seems to be the number that most decks settled on. You never want to see two in your opening hand, and this also lets you play one more creature so there's less chance of the OuaT fizzling.

I note the Punishing Fire list above is only playing 2 City of Traitors. I get the logic, you dont want to see multiple Citys in the same game, it hurts that playing the land you get when you take the initiative blows up the City, etc. But at the same time, this is a deck that absolutely wants to make 4 mana on turn one, and I dont think thats feasible without 7-8 sol lands.

[MD.Ghost]

Ah OK good. OUAT is great!

My point was that the 4x Grove manabase is for RG builds with maindeck Blood Sun. It also helps Punishing Fire and TKS. If none of those cards are main and Blood Sun is a "maybe", then why play that mana instead of Taiga + fetches? That is a Blood Sun stompy manabase.

If you play maindeck Blood Sun, the logical place for it is over 3sphere. The noncreature slots don't have much room. Replacing a creature seems bad. Playing Blood Sun instead of 3ball also makes boarding into Fury better.

You could play Zenith as a 2-of and then have SB singletons like Collector Ouphe (equivalent to 3 copies). That frees up some SB space to run a wider package. Otherwise yeah, you need multiples for consistency. What about playing multiple Force of Vigor instead of multiple Collector Ouphe? Ouphe is stronger in specific scenarios, but Force works against a wider range of things.

Yeah for sure [card]Blood Sun[/cards] needs a test and could be good or even better than Trinisphere main. Now without White Plume, some Wasteland may have a comeback too - cause they couldnt really fight a potential turn 1 Creature that enters with a basic land.

Have you ever thought about Raggadragga, Goreguts Boss here? Shouldnt it affect all 8 Spirit Guides (transform them into 4/4 beaters if needed) and Undermountain Adventurer (total of 12 cards). The later one could easily help get to that 7 Mana Mawloc cast on top of it.

Another potential card could be Halana and Alena, Partners to push your own creatures. Compared to Minsc Walker both could be found with OUAT too.



Currently trying a 2/2 split between Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal to determine which I like more, but maybe the 2/2 split will end up proving the best. You never want multiple chrome mox in a game so it doesnt make sense to play 4 Chrome Mox. And playing 12 one shot mana sources might be too much, and only 18 permanent sources in a deck this mana hungry maybe too little, so a 10 one shot, 20 permanent sources configuration seems logical to try.

Trying out 3 OuaT instead of 4 as that seems to be the number that most decks settled on. You never want to see two in your opening hand, and this also lets you play one more creature so there's less chance of the OuaT fizzling.

I note the Punishing Fire list above is only playing 2 City of Traitors. I get the logic, you dont want to see multiple Citys in the same game, it hurts that playing the land you get when you take the initiative blows up the City, etc. But at the same time, this is a deck that absolutely wants to make 4 mana on turn one, and I dont think thats feasible without 7-8 sol lands.

QUAT depends - i dont see why more copies of that card is bad, you could easily end up in situations that grap you Creature/Land/Mana for your next turn too. The playset also means, you have it more often in your starting hand, which is exactly this decks want to get the right combination of Mana and/or Creature at start.

I never liked more than 2 Cities in Stompy Shells (even Eldrazi ones) but thats maybe only my opionion. I feel the tradeoff with 2 instead of 4 is better in the long run.

[FTW]

Have you ever thought about Raggadragga, Goreguts Boss here? Shouldnt it affect all 8 Spirit Guides (transform them into 4/4 beaters if needed) and Undermountain Adventurer (total of 12 cards). The later one could easily help get to that 7 Mana Mawloc cast on top of it.

Another potential card could be Halana and Alena, Partners to push your own creatures. Compared to Minsc Walker both could be found with OUAT too.

Those are interesting. Great with the right pieces, worse on an empty board.

Imho Stompy needs strong standalone threats, because of the shell's low threat density and lack of card selection (high % mana sources + prison cards = lower random chance of topdecking threats). Minsc is a much better standalone threat, even if not a "creature" for OUAT. If you're topdecking, or if you mulligan and only have 1 threat in hand, or if opponent removed your other creature, Minsc is much better. It's the more powerful card overall.

Unfortunately the deck's already crowded at 4 mana. Can't cut the Initiative creatures. Minsc is probably the best 2RG card in the format. Mawloc can be played at 2RG. More 2RG isn't what's missing. The curve could use something that comes down earlier or doesn't need both colors. 2R, 2G, 3, 2... costs like that. Prison cards at 2-3 mana will help curve into the 4 mana threats. Or disruptive creatures at lower mana. Bonecrusher Giant? Fury? Walking Ballista? Phyrexian Revoker?

[Captain Hammer]

Youre right that it needs more 2R or 2G creatures.

Good options include Bonecrusher, Rabblemaster, possibly Tireless Tracker could work but its a bit slower than the gameplan here.

Trouble is there is no room for these cards. The two weakest cards in the the current list are Mawloc and Endurance.

Bonecrusher serves a similar role to Mawloc so you could swap some Mawloc for Bonecrusher and move a Mawloc to the board. This does hurt the green count for Endurance a tad.

Fury is awesome. I actually like playing some Fury maindeck and pushing an Endurance to the board.

[MD.Ghost]

Trouble is there is no room for these cards. The two weakest cards in the the current list are Mawloc and Endurance.

Mawloc is King in this shell, its not only removal, its quite easy to untap with Undermountain Adventurer into a possible 7/7 Mawloc + card draw.

-------------

Inspired by Natural Order you could easily try another "Green Stompy" Idea like

// Deck: NO Stompy (60)

// Lands 17
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 City of Traitors
2 Wooded Foothils
2 Taiga
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Mountain

// Creatures 23
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Allosaurus Shepherd
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Mawloc
1 Endurance
1 Ignoble Hierarch
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier

// Other 20
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Choke
4 Natural Order
2 Turntimber Symbiosis
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Combine some ugly Stompy Stuff together and have a lot of options at Sideboard too. Its overall Mono-Green with a super light red Splash for Mawloc and Ruric. With Chancellor (which is a backup NO Target if Atraxa or Ruric fail) you also have the option to gain 1 Mana at start and imprint it in Mox for another one. Allosaurus Shepherd is super nasty here if you combine it not only with Green based Creatures, cause the Maindeck comes with NO and Choke too. Turntimber Symbiosis could be a kind of backup NO plan, since you have 6 big creatures here.

I think Progenitus isnt really needed G1 - you could switch to it later or play Tyrranax Rex in this spot as a Mono G option (Hardcast).

[Captain Hammer]

Inspired by Natural Order you could easily try another "Green Stompy" Idea like

// Deck: NO Stompy (60)
4 Allosaurus Shepherd
4 Choke

Wow, you really hate blue 😂 Youll end up with a lot of dead cards vs nonblue matchups.

4 Shepards maindeck is excessive. Move 2-3 to the board, cards like Ouphe, Reclamation Sage and Eternal Witness make sense to include in any decks playing GSZ.

With only 2 GSZ, 1 Dryad Arbor seems enough. It feels awful when you draw it and have to use it as your land drop.

Choke is a sideboard card and even there, I would play 3 at most.

I actually think Natural Order only makes sense in either Elves or in decks that splash Blue for Brainstorm and FoW. Brainstorm lets you shuffle Atraxa and Prog from your hand back into your deck.

Old One Eye>>>Ruric Thar and is a must play in any NO shell.

Its very hardcastable, excellent vs removal and is a fine back up option when Atraxa is stuck in your hand or yard. Ruric Thar is only amazing vs combo where as Old One Eye is universally good.

[MD.Ghost]

@Captain Hammer

I played Sylvan Plug at the good old Times, so hating blue ist Always in the Check list. I mean - whats the current best Deck? Delver and Meta follow up with various other blue Decks. The best non blue Alternativ got the Axe (White Stompy) and will go down. Unless regional Variance, blue ist always a contender for tournaments thanks to Cantrips and Counters.

Using Choke + Shephard means you win here. In a NO shell that is exposed to Counter Spells i think Shephard is auto include (you already go all in) and at least the dude could be eat from NO itself If really needed.

With NO and GR Shell Ruric is one of the best cards vs Combo G1 - yeah Old One Eye is better vs fair Decks, but fair Decks arent an issue in legacy - a Stompy Shell already plays unfair and fail only itself or vs other unfair tactics or blue Counter Magic.

But you are right - i favour the GR Jund Initiative Shell over the NO Plan

[Captain Hammer]

Two RG Initiative Stompy lists top 8ed the first challenge since Undermountain Adventurer’s printing. Both look near identical to the list in the OP and play 4 Fable, so I think Fable does make the cut….

This is the 2nd place list….

Artifact (9)
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Lotus Petal
Creature (24)
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Fury
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Undermountain Adventurer
Enchantment (4)
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker
Instant (2)
2 Once Upon a Time
Land (20)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Taiga
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 City of Traitors
3 Arid Mesa
1 Mountain
1 Forest
Planeswalker (1)
1 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Collector Ouphe
2 Force of Vigor
2 Endurance
2 Allosaurus Shepherd

This is the 9th place list…

Artifact (14)
3 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lotus Petal
Creature (20)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Fury
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Undermountain Adventurer
Enchantment (4)
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker
Instant (3)
3 Once Upon a Time
Land (15)
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
1 Forest
Planeswalker (4)
4 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Trinisphere
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Run Afoul
4 Endurance
1 Force of Vigor

[FTW]

Interesting. I guess Fable fills that role of "need something to curve out at 3 mana".

[MD.Ghost]

Interesting. I guess Fable fills that role of "need something to curve out at 3 mana".

Its a good card sure - the only downside, its less aggressive cause the 2/2 dude will not do much at all. Overall all 3 effects are very usefull for this deck concept, generate mana + color fix, cyclind dead hand cards and copy Inititative creatures is powerfull. But non of the lists use Mawloc so i think they are from MODO? So Fable could be a good filler, but overall i dont thinks its a better card. Cause having a 2-X Creature that shot down something from your Opponent and quickly become a good beater itself is much more aggressive. In a streamlined list, slots are also rare.

I see only the option to cut Trinisphere (Blood Sun, Fable etc.) but wouldnt personally do that G1 vs unknown meta (Classic Combo tends to win G1). Or cutting down Mincs-Walker like the first List do (which give up combo matchups G1 and are not much better G2...).

In my list you can cut Endurance as a 3drop, but for me that card clearly is a 4off G1 cause its cc3, solid stats alone and could handle a bunch of common matchups too. With all that Spirit-Guides you clearly cant have all elements at your decklist. So it may clearly depend on the meta you face.

[Russki]

Been toying around with the idea of this kind of deck for a little bit.

Wanted to keep some of the prison elements while being explosive as well. With that being the choice I went with 3 OUAT. Read through this topic and feel like I agree that I would prefer four petal over chrome mox, but an attempted permanent mana source can be more useful in a long game so went with a 2/2 split



//Threats: 17
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
1 Collector Ouphe
2 Endurance
1 Fury
3 Mawloc
2 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes
4 Undermountain Adventurer

//UTILITY: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Once Upon a Time
1 Shatterskull Smashing // Shatterskull, the Hammer Pass

//PRISON: 6
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void


//ACCELERATION: 12
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Chrome Mox

//LANDS: 17
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Mountain
1 Mossfire Valley
1 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Dryad Arbor

//SIDEBOARD: 15
1 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Endurance
2 Force of Vigor
2 Fury
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxicrene
2 Veil of Summer
1 Whiptongue Hydra


EDIT: Decklist as I make adjustments https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rNLOSsPxuUyzLxO8d8Kjsg

[MD.Ghost]

Currently maindeck 2-3 Thought-Knots over Trinisphere. While its cc4, its disruption that can beat (and dodges Bolt and outclass many creatures alone) - it can be found with OUaT, Undercity-Finish, copied with Fable-Token and should never be a dead card by itself.

[jmlima]

Think this goes here:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-not-gruul-then-die

[Captain Hammer]

Think this goes here:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-not-gruul-then-die

Thats a very cool list.

Along those same lines, StaticGripped just 5-0ed with this awesome Mono G list…

Artifact (8)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere

Creature (20)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Apex Altisaur
1 Allosaurus Shepherd
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Endurance
4 Ignoble Hierarch
4 Undermountain Adventurer
1 Tyrranax Rex
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier

Planeswalker (1)
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide

Sorcery (12)
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Turntimber Symbiosis

Instant (3)
3 Once Upon a Time

Land (16)
3 Forest
4 City of Traitors
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Boseiju, Who Endures

Sideboard (15)
3 Dismember
1 Progenitus
2 Walking Ballista
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Archon of Valor's Reach
2 Force of Vigor
2 Allosaurus Shepherd
3 Endurance

[Clark Kant]

Ecobaronen came 2nd at the challenge with this list…

Artifact (7)
3 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void

Creature (24)
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Fury
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Undermountain Adventurer

Enchantment (4)
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker

Instant (3)
3 Once Upon a Time

Planeswalker (4)
4 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes

Land (18)
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Dismember
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Pyroblast
2 Collector Ouphe
4 Force of Vigor

As far as GSZ+FoW lists that already play 4 Endurance go, any thoughts on a 1 of Malanthorpe?

[Clark Kant]

This is putting up enough 5-0s and challenges that is could be considered an Established Deck now or soon.

Both Phil and Boshnroll played variations of this deck…

Phil’s Turbo NO: https://youtu.be/OJ16_8pOIXg

1 Allosaurus Shepherd (2x2) 132
4 Ancient Tomb (uma) 236
1 Apex Altisaur (c19) 31
1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier (one) 196
1 Bayou (3ed) 283
1 Boseiju, Who Endures (neo) 266
4 Chrome Mox (2xm) 240
4 City of Traitors (exo) 143
1 Collector Ouphe (plist) 927
1 Dryad Arbor (tsr) 277
4 Elvish Spirit Guide (dmr) 157
1 Endurance (mh2) 157
3 Forest (eld) 266
4 Green Sun's Zenith (2x2) 150
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide (mh2) 202
4 Ignoble Hierarch (mh2) 166
1 Misty Rainforest (mm3) 240
4 Natural Order (sta) 54
2 Noble Hierarch (uma) 174
3 Once Upon a Time (eld) 169
4 Trinisphere (2xm) 303
4 Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood (znr) 215
1 Tyrranax Rex (one) 189
4 Undermountain Adventurer (clb) 260
1 Verdant Catacombs (mh2) 260

SIDEBOARD:
1 Allosaurus Shepherd (2x2) 132
1 Archon of Valor's Reach (bbd) 74
3 Dismember (nph) 57
3 Endurance (mh2) 157
3 Force of Vigor (mh1) 164
1 Gaea's Blessing (ema) 168
1 Hall of Gemstone (mir) 221
1 Progenitus (plist) 226
1 Run Afoul (m21) 201




BoshNRolls Bant NO Control: https://youtu.be/Fi_cIBmb_bY

1 Atraxa, Grand Unifier (one) 196
1 Bayou (3ed) 283
1 Birds of Paradise (dmr) 151
4 Brainstorm (2xm) 44
1 Dryad Arbor (tsr) 277
1 Endurance (mh2) 157
2 Flooded Strand (ktk) 233
4 Force of Will (dmr) 50
2 Green Sun's Zenith (2x2) 150
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide (mh2) 202
3 Ice-Fang Coatl (mh1) 203
1 Ignoble Hierarch (mh2) 166
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (uma) 202
4 Misty Rainforest (mm3) 240
2 Natural Order (sta) 54
3 Noble Hierarch (uma) 174
4 Ponder (lrw) 79
2 Prismatic Ending (mh2) 25
1 Savannah (3ed) 285
1 Snow-Covered Forest (mh1) 254
2 Snow-Covered Island (khm) 278
1 Snow-Covered Plains (khm) 276
4 Swords to Plowshares (cmr) 387
2 Teferi, Time Raveler (war) 221
1 Tropical Island (3ed) 288
1 Tundra (3ed) 289
1 Undermountain Adventurer (clb) 260
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (pthb) 229p
2 Wasteland (sld) 178
4 Windswept Heath (ktk) 248

SIDEBOARD:
2 Carpet of Flowers (mb1) 1156
1 Collector Ouphe (plist) 927
2 Endurance (mh2) 157
1 Flusterstorm (mh1) 255
2 Force of Negation (mh1) 52
2 Force of Vigor (mh1) 164
1 Progenitus (plist) 226
2 Surgical Extraction (2x2) 94
2 Veil of Summer (m20) 198



Phils Sylvan Plug: https://youtu.be/1AQE2NovI6w

4 Ancient Tomb (plist) 574
2 Boseiju, Who Endures (neo) 266
4 Chalice of the Void (mma) 203
4 Chrome Mox (ema) 219
4 City of Traitors (exo) 143
1 Dryad Arbor (plist) 285
4 Elvish Spirit Guide (dmr) 157
1 Endurance (mh2) 157
3 Forest (eld) 266
4 Green Sun's Zenith (2x2) 150
4 Jewel Thief (snc) 151
1 Questing Beast (eld) 171
4 Shifting Ceratops (m20) 194
3 Snow-Covered Forest (mh1) 254
2 Sylvan Library (cc1) 5
3 Thrun, Breaker of Silence (one) 186
3 Trinisphere (2xm) 303
4 Turntimber Symbiosis // Turntimber, Serpentine Wood (znr) 215
4 Undermountain Adventurer (clb) 260
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth (mh2) 261

SIDEBOARD:
1 Carnage Tyrant (xln) 179
2 Carpet of Flowers (mb1) 1156
3 Choke (8ed) 237
1 Collector Ouphe (plist) 927
3 Endurance (mh2) 157
2 Primal Might (m21) 197
1 Reclamation Sage (m15) 194
1 Sylvan Library (cc1) 5
1 Trinisphere (2xm) 303

[FTW]

Standard RG Initiative list from Thraben U: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CxC7jQHRHQ


//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Mountain

//Other Mana: 12
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

//Creatures: 22
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker
2 Bonecrusher Giant
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Bloodboil Sorcerer
4 Fury

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes

//Spells: 4
4 Once Upon A Time

//Sideboard: 15
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void


Based on the league I might go -2 Bonecrusher -2 Bloodboil +4 Shatterskull Smashing.
Maybe also -1 City +1 Cavern.

The deck seemed to run into colored mana problems, especially after Prismatic Ending/bounce on Chrome Mox. It also struggled to remove enemy threats when opponent could steal the Initiative. Smashing increases the red mana count and red pitch count, while also adding removal. Bloodboil Sorcerer's ability seemed underwhelming. It's just a 3/3 Initiative trigger.

[Captain Hammer]

Standard RG Initiative list from Thraben U: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CxC7jQHRHQ


//Lands: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Mountain

//Other Mana: 12
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

//Creatures: 22
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker
2 Bonecrusher Giant
4 Undermountain Adventurer
4 Caves of Chaos Adventurer
4 Bloodboil Sorcerer
4 Fury

//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes

//Spells: 4
4 Once Upon A Time

//Sideboard: 15
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void


Based on the league I might go -2 Bonecrusher -2 Bloodboil +4 Shatterskull Smashing.
Maybe also -1 City +1 Cavern.

The deck seemed to run into colored mana problems, especially after Prismatic Ending/bounce on Chrome Mox. It also struggled to remove enemy threats when opponent could steal the Initiative. Smashing increases the red mana count and red pitch count, while also adding removal. Bloodboil Sorcerer's ability seemed underwhelming. It's just a 3/3 Initiative trigger.

Cool list and solid video. I agree Bloodboil is subpar. I would want to play a different threat, 2 magus, a 1 of squee and a 1 of spicy card like abrade/trinisphere/shatterskull or a couple rabblemasters or something along those lines could work.

Since we dont play any black to hardcast Macabre, whats the reasoning to play Macabre instead of Surgical Extraction? Duress? the 2 life!?

[FTW]

Good questions. I don't like that SB. It ran into some problems in those matches.

The main advantage of Faerie is you can find it with OUAT. Otherwise the usual reasons to run it don't apply (black mana, black count, Vial deck). Surgical is counterable (not relevant in many GY matches), costs life for a Tomb deck, and can't remove 2 things. Instead of 4 Surgical, Leyline seems like the logical choice if replacing Faerie. Or Endurance. The deck has 16 green main before boarding anything in.

The 75 has 0 answers for artifacts and enchants, which came up in the League. SB should probably have some Force of Vigor, maybe 1-2 Ouphe.

[Captain Hammer]

Good questions. I don't like that SB. It ran into some problems in those matches.

The main advantage of Faerie is you can find it with OUAT. Otherwise the usual reasons to run it don't apply (black mana, black count, Vial deck). Surgical is counterable (not relevant in many GY matches), costs life for a Tomb deck, and can't remove 2 things. Instead of 4 Surgical, Leyline seems like the logical choice if replacing Faerie. Or Endurance. The deck has 16 green main before boarding anything in.

The 75 has 0 answers for artifacts and enchants, which came up in the League. SB should probably have some Force of Vigor, maybe 1-2 Ouphe.

Good points. Faerie should probably be Endurance since Endurance is worth sideboarding in vs delver as well.

Also I feel like a 4/3 split of Chalice/Trini makes more sense than a 3/4 split.

But then again I dont have as much experience with this list as the pilot so Im probably wrong.