UB Anti-Blue

[FTW]

ThrabenU video on Orcish Bowmasters.dec: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaLb_cp7rz0


//Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Prismatic Vista
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp

//Spells: 21
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Reanimate
2 Fatal Push
2 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Snuff Out

//Creatures: 20
4 Baleful Strix
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Faerie Mastermind
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Opposition Agent
3 Grief
2 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Force of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Null Rod
2 Energy Flux
2 Plague Engineer
1 Opposition Agent


League 4-1

Faerie Mastermind looks really bad here, especially vs Bowmasters. Going 4x Mastermind 4x Strix makes it extra weak to Bowmasters, since these are X/1s that need to stay in play to have value. Snapcaster Mage is probably the correct flash X/1 to play, since you cash in the full value whether it dies or not. Otherwise more Opposition Agent or planeswalkers seems good.

The manabase looks a bit suboptimal. There's probably room for 1 Otawara and 1-2 other utility lands. 1 Volrath's Stronghold seems good with many of the creatures.

[PirateKing]

He kept coming against other Bowmaster decks and seemed really poorly positioned. I don't think the 4-1 record is fair if all players were paying ideally. I do agree that outside a banning, Bowmasters is the future, but I am doubtful this deck is the right direction.

[FTW]

Yeah this many X/1s seems bad in the mirror. Especially when they need to stay in play to have value (Faerie, deathtouch blocker). At least Snapcaster gets full value whether it dies immediately or not.

Ledger Shredder is a better value 2 that doesn't die to Bowmasters.

Aside from that weakness, a lot of pieces of the deck seemed useful. It just needed to not be blown out so badly by enemy Bowmasters/Jitte.

UB might be viable more like this...


//Creatures: 16
4 Orcish Bowmasters
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Ledger Shredder
2 Opposition Agent
3 Grief
2 Sheoldred, the Apocalypse

//Spells: 25
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Reanimate
2 Fatal Push
2 Sheoldred's Edict
2 Drown in the Loch
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Force of Negation

//Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Volrath's Stronghold

//Sideboard: 15
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cling to Dust
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hydroblast
1 Force of Negation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Energy Flux
1 Null Rod
1 Powder Keg
2 Plague Engineer
2 Dress Down


The reasoning here:
-Snuff Out was a liability in many cases
-Drown in the Loch is relevant more often and kills black creatures
-Ledger Shredder is another 2-mana blue value train that doesn't turn you into X/1.dec (cutting Faerie, Strix, Clique, Borrower)
-More hand & stack interaction to handle different strategies, instead of committing so many permanents to the board or going mono-fair creature kill
-More discard supports the Reanimate plan
-Still many things to threaten at instant speed with 2-3 mana open (Bowmasters, Snapcaster, Opposition Agent, Drown, removal, FoN)

Phil often resorted to Force on Bowmasters to prevent the value, or had to lose multiple bodies. I think Thoughtseize is the proper way for UB to handle it, instead of 2-for-1 ing self to prevent the ETB or getting 2-for-1d by the value. Counterspell (Drown) or Dress Down are other answers. It's better to prevent than play catchup.

Otherwise maybe Esper is the way to go (StP, Prismatic, better planeswalkers, artifact & enchantment kill).

Edit: In Esper, Teferi, Time Raveler seems strong at protecting from enemy Bowmasters. Teferi's static prevents opponent from ambushing your draws or creatures with Bowmasters, so you can safely do things. Teferi's - ability removes Bowmasters from the battlefield, then Bowmaster doesn't see the card draw, and opponent can't replay Bowmaster until main phase. On opponent's turn they can replay Bowmaster and kill Teferi though (@ 1 loyalty), so you would need some other answer ready (Thoughtseize, counter, Dress Down, etc). It just buys some tempo and advantage to do things.

Liliana, the Last Hope might be a better mirror breaker. It kills enemy Bowmasters, returns yours, and snipes other things.

[Zoid]

Anyone care to explain what the point of Reanimate in these lists is?
Is the life loss on getting an opponents creature or Sheoldred worth playing it over Unearth?

[Fox]

Anyone care to explain what the point of Reanimate in these lists is?
Is the life loss on getting an opponents creature or Sheoldred worth playing it over Unearth?

Grief

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Anyone care to explain what the point of Reanimate in these lists is?
Is the life loss on getting an opponents creature or Sheoldred worth playing it over Unearth?

Lets you scam grief

[PirateKing]

Is Dark Ritual too much card disadvantage for this deck?

Long term I expect players to be cautions to Brainstorm into 1B open mana, so there won't be a whole lot of gotcha plays unless through a resource necessity.
Having explosive turn 1 Bowmaster (+Thoughtseize/Reanimate if main phase) or Opposition Agent seems good.
Helps power Sheoldred out as well.

But it's a bad top deck and helps get you 2for1'd is ways that just a strait fair grind might do better at

[Barook]

Better question is why a UB deck with Sheoldred and Bowmasters doesn't run Draw 7s like Day's Undoing and/or Echo of Eoens (with proper support for the latter, aka LED). The damage potential seems insane. Even a sequence of T2 Bowmaster, T3 Draw 7 for seven pings of damage and a 8/8+ creature is pure value. With a Sheoldred in the mix, it's pretty much a instakill unless your opponent has gained alot of life. Even with just two Bowmasters, it's pretty silly.

Yes, it can hurt if your opponent plays a Bowmaster in response to your Draw 7, but you should build your deck in a way to deal with Bowmasters anyway going forward.

[Zoid]

Thanks for the clarification on Reanimate.
However, with just running 2-3 Grief and around 2 Reanimate it seems unlikely to occur.
Both cards have value on their own but I'm not sure if that's worth it.
Also investing 3 cards into 2 discards + a meh creature seems risky as essentially both players start the game in topdeck mode.


Is Dark Ritual too much card disadvantage for this deck?

Long term I expect players to be cautions to Brainstorm into 1B open mana, so there won't be a whole lot of gotcha plays unless through a resource necessity.
Having explosive turn 1 Bowmaster (+Thoughtseize/Reanimate if main phase) or Opposition Agent seems good.
Helps power Sheoldred out as well.

But it's a bad top deck and helps get you 2for1'd is ways that just a strait fair grind might do better at

The opponent playing around it is probably very important unless it gets hammered soon.
If you can protect the ritual/creature it seems like a good plan.
T1 hymn + discard is also pretty strong, as is Ritual into Opposition Agent on their opening Fetch.
Given that most counters now are Forces, you at least trade even if you get Force'd.
Thinking along this line, maybe going for a more tempo line with more discard, Wasteland and Daze might also be viable.
That way your opponent is forced to cantrip because you attack their resources.

On another note, Vial comes to mind as possible option for all the 2 mana dudes, but seems a bit wasted given that everything flashes.
Cunning Nightbonder and going for even more flashers might also be an option.
I white there's Errant and Giada but that seems too bad.


Better question is why a UB deck with Sheoldred and Bowmasters doesn't run Draw 7s like Day's Undoing and/or Echo of Eoens (with proper support for the latter, aka LED). The damage potential seems insane. Even a sequence of T2 Bowmaster, T3 Draw 7 for seven pings of damage and a 8/8+ creature is pure value. With a Sheoldred in the mix, it's pretty much a instakill unless your opponent has gained alot of life. Even with just two Bowmasters, it's pretty silly.

Yes, it can hurt if your opponent plays a Bowmaster in response to your Draw 7, but you should build your deck in a way to deal with Bowmasters anyway going forward.

That is the other possible game plan which is risky.
If you can't protect either creatures then the draw7s do nothing and are even at odds with your discard.
Given that the orcs are nonbos with other cards played with draw7s like Narset, that deck would have to look very different.

[PirateKing]

Better question is why a UB deck with Sheoldred and Bowmasters doesn't run Draw 7s like Day's Undoing and/or Echo of Eoens (with proper support for the latter, aka LED). The damage potential seems insane. Even a sequence of T2 Bowmaster, T3 Draw 7 for seven pings of damage and a 8/8+ creature is pure value. With a Sheoldred in the mix, it's pretty much a instakill unless your opponent has gained alot of life. Even with just two Bowmasters, it's pretty silly.

Yes, it can hurt if your opponent plays a Bowmaster in response to your Draw 7, but you should build your deck in a way to deal with Bowmasters anyway going forward.

I was brewing something similar, focusing on stuff like Defense Grid so they can't use all the cards I draw them into as I kill them. Needs a lot of work, but same idea

[FTW]

Better question is why a UB deck with Sheoldred and Bowmasters doesn't run Draw 7s like Day's Undoing and/or Echo of Eoens (with proper support for the latter, aka LED). The damage potential seems insane. Even a sequence of T2 Bowmaster, T3 Draw 7 for seven pings of damage and a 8/8+ creature is pure value. With a Sheoldred in the mix, it's pretty much a instakill unless your opponent has gained alot of life. Even with just two Bowmasters, it's pretty silly.

Yes, it can hurt if your opponent plays a Bowmaster in response to your Draw 7, but you should build your deck in a way to deal with Bowmasters anyway going forward.

Good question. I was thinking about this. I think it makes more sense in an Esper Control shell, maybe 80-card Yorion, running some copies of Narset and 1-2 Days. Days then has primary combo with Narset but can still blow out games with Bowmasters or Sheoldred.

Bowmasters plays well with Staff of the Storyteller and Yorion, so you can kind of picture an Esper Control shell there.

In this UB build, without Narset, Days seems riskier. They still draw 7. With damage triggers on the stack, they can double Bolt you in response or combo kill or other nasty things.
Wait... do your damage triggers even resolve if Days ends the turn???

[FTW]

Thanks for the clarification on Reanimate.
However, with just running 2-3 Grief and around 2 Reanimate it seems unlikely to occur.
Both cards have value on their own but I'm not sure if that's worth it.
Also investing 3 cards into 2 discards + a meh creature seems risky as essentially both players start the game in topdeck mode.

Check out the video. He never pulls off the turn 1 Grief trick even with 3 Grief 3 Reanimate, but as you said, you don't always want to turn 1 that line. It's only good in some (unfair) matchups.

Even without that line, both cards have value.

Grief can be hardcast as a 2BB TKS. Or you can use it as Unmask early for tempo (depends on matchup), then maybe Reanimate it later. Menace is a useful keyword when you have 4x flash archer. Many combat tricks possible. It's a decent finisher in a grindy lategame, while not being dead early. It played well on its own in the vid.

Reanimate on its own can return other creatures (many 2-for-1s) or steal opponent's best threat. The steal line gets better with discard. The value line gets better with Snapcaster (reanimate spells too!).

Maybe there are better things to do with those slots, but there is decent value there. Some good lines are shown in the vid.

Re: Ritual.
This UB shell cannot handle the card disadvantage well. Force and Grief together are rough enough (relevant in at least 1 of Phil's games). There's no real long-term card advantage engine to recoup, just value 2-for-1s.

In general Ritual does look strong with Bowmasters + Opposition Agent. More surprise factor. Also good with Grief and Hymn. Maybe that fits better into a BW shell with Staff of the Storyteller and another card engine?

[Barook]

Wait... do your damage triggers even resolve if Days ends the turn???
That's actually a good question.


In general Ritual does look strong with Bowmasters + Opposition Agent. More surprise factor. Also good with Grief and Hymn. Maybe that fits better into a BW shell with Staff of the Storyteller and another card engine?
Mono B Stompy with both Bowmasters and Sheoldred sounds like another exciting option. Question is how you're going to force draws for maximum value. Teferi's Puzzle Box maybe?

[Zoid]

That's actually a good question.


Mono B Stompy with both Bowmasters and Sheoldred sounds like another exciting option. Question is how you're going to force draws for maximum value. Teferi's Puzzle Box maybe?

From the notes on Day's Undoing:


If any abilities trigger while players are shuffling cards into their library or drawing seven cards, those abilities cease to exist when the turn ends. They won’t be put on the stack.

So yeah, that doesn't work.

Chains of Mephistopheles if you can spare the change.
Otherwise I guess inhibitors or Deafening Silence kind of effects?
Curse of Exhaustion?

[PirateKing]

Brian Coval (BoshNRoll) did a league with Esper Bowmasters that again was an example of how mot to play Bowmasters in the mirror.
Every Bowmaster list he faced seemed to go bigger or do things like just win the game instead of cheeky tricks. Grixis with DRC just doing damage versus Esper with Esper Sentinel sitting there looking dumb was hard to watch.
I'm still not sure by what metric we need to be building by, but you need on tempo answers to opposing Bowmasters or you're in for a bad time.

[H]

you need on tempo answers to opposing Bowmasters or you're in for a bad time.

Is it Spell Snare time? (Probably not, but I have a spot spot in my heart for that card, it just feels so good when you get someone with it.)

[FTW]

Edit: Spell Snare is a decent answer. Depends how many non-Bowmaster decks are also weak to Spell Snare. Maybe just SB material.

Other on-tempo answers:
Stifle
Dress Down
Drown in the Loch
Gut Shot
Lava Dart
Orcish Bowmasters
Phantasmal Image
Spikefield Hazard
End the Festivities
Fury



Brian Coval (BoshNRoll) did a league with Esper Bowmasters that again was an example of how mot to play Bowmasters in the mirror.
Every Bowmaster list he faced seemed to go bigger or do things like just win the game instead of cheeky tricks. Grixis with DRC just doing damage versus Esper with Esper Sentinel sitting there looking dumb was hard to watch.
I'm still not sure by what metric we need to be building by, but you need on tempo answers to opposing Bowmasters or you're in for a bad time.

Linked his video for discussion.
Bosh N Roll League: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHt2uucM3ZY

Esper Bowmasters List


//Lands: 19
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland

//Creatures: 12
4 Esper Sentinel
4 Orcish Bowmasters
4 Faerie Mastermind

//Spells: 28
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
2 Hymn to Tourach

//Enchantments: 1
1 Invasion of Gobakhan

//Sideboard: 15
2 Force of Negation
2 Mystical Dispute
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest
2 Serenity
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Deafening Silence
1 Court of Cunning


I really don't like this strategy at all.

Faerie Mastermind is a great way to lose the mirror. Both Phil and Brian jammed 4 copies. This card needs to go. X/1s with passive abilities are extinct. Ask yourself "is this X/1 worth the card & mana if it's not in play". In most cases the answer is no, which means the card is now bad. Snapcaster might be the exception.

Esper Sentinel + Wasteland + Daze plays towards a tempo plan... except this is Esper not Grixis. Esper can't do tempo. There's no beatdown. At the very least there would have to be 4x Murktide 0x Faerie to even attempt a beatdown plan, but you're shooting yourself in the foot with Swords to Plowshares over Lightning Bolt. Esper is bad at beatdown. Of course any DRC pseudo-mirror is going to embarass this and make it look too durdly. Esper tempo doesn't work. Esper has to be control. Control doesn't want Daze+Wasteland+Esper Sentinel. Bowmasters or not, this seems like a critical deck strategy error.

The Esper spells part seems fine though.

Now what if you cut the cheesy tempo stuff for control stuff:
-4 Daze
-4 Esper Sentinel
-4 Faerie Mastermind
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Wasteland

+4 Staff of the Storyteller
+2 Drown in the Loch
+2 Timeless Dragon
+2 Shark Typhoon
+2 Teferi, Time Raveler
+1 Wandering Emperor
+1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Otawara, Soaring City
+1 Karakas
+1 Castle Ardenvale

Maybe something like that. Staff is a Baleful Strix that has long-term investment in drawing more cards vs short-term dependence on that X/1 surviving to block.

Or go 80-card Yorion pile.

Either way Esper has to go big. Cheesing around with Esper Sentinel + Daze accomplishes nothing when your clocks are all 1/x and 2/x and your spells result in opponent +5 life you -2 life (StP, Thoughtseize).

[FTW]

Stern Scolding is another good answer that also answers DRC, Stoneforge, mana dorks, Thalia, Moon Man, Solitude, Grief... so it covers a decent number of things Spell Snare misses.

So far Grixis Tempo seems to be the most successful Bowmasters deck. Just splashing Bowmasters in UR Delver shell.

In UB, there's an interesting Death's Shadow variant running Bowmasters and 4 Grief 4 Reanimate.

[Fox]

Stern Scolding excels at losing to Chalice, SnT, Reanimator, Depths, and Murktide. It joins the list of unplayable blue kill spells alongside Pongify, Bind the Monster, etc. It is also similar to Spell Snare and Spell Pierce, in that you should play Prismatic Ending in that counterspell slot.

[FTW]

Grixis Bowmasters Undefeated from the MTGO Legacy Challenge
Decklist: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5697349#online

Video Replay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXK4ss-YXQM

It looks good.

Making Delver the cut (keeping all DRC and Murktide) seems smart. I've seen other versions on a 4-4-3-3 split, though Delver was the worst creature in the deck.

The Preordain + Council's Deliberation package seems iffy. It's nowhere close to filling EI's role. Predict seems better (especially with Bauble & DRC to peek at your top card and Murktide wanting the graveyard filled).

In theory this sort of deck should be hateable by midrange Bowmaster piles, since it has so many draw effects and X/1s to line up badly against enemy Bowmasters.

[FTW]

The Esper spells part seems fine though.

Now what if you cut the cheesy tempo stuff for control stuff:
-4 Daze
-4 Esper Sentinel
-4 Faerie Mastermind
-2 Spell Pierce
-3 Wasteland

+4 Staff of the Storyteller
+2 Drown in the Loch
+2 Timeless Dragon
+2 Shark Typhoon
+2 Teferi, Time Raveler
+1 Wandering Emperor
+1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Otawara, Soaring City
+1 Karakas
+1 Castle Ardenvale

Ark4n gets 2nd in the Showcase with a similar Esper Staff Bowmasters:
https://www.mtgo.com/en/mtgo/decklist/legacy-showcase-challenge-2023-07-0212562330#deck_Ark4n


//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cling to Dust
1 Fire // Ice
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Supreme Verdict

//Artifacts: 4
4 Staff of the Storyteller

//Creatures: 7
4 Orcish Bowmasters
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Planeswalkers: 3
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 The Wandering Emperor

//Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Plains

//Sideboard: 15
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Meltdown
1 Stony Silence
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Plague Engineer


This looks strong!

The red splash makes the mana weaker, but brings in great SB options. K Command has good synergy with Snapcaster & Bowmasters.

[FTW]

From this weekend's Challenge. UWx Staff Bowmasters still looking like a strong contender:
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=46019&d=540048&f=LE


//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

//Lands: 27
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Mystic Sanctuary

//Spells: 31
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Prismatic Ending
2 Spell Pierce
3 Forth Eorlingas!
4 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict

//Creatures: 6
4 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Snapcaster Mage

//Planeswalkers: 5
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 The Wandering Emperor

//Artifacts: 4
4 Staff of the Storyteller

//Enchantments: 7
4 Fable of the Mirror-Breaker
3 Shark Typhoon

//Sideboard: 14
3 Pyroblast
2 Hydroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Dress Down
2 Meltdown
2 Null Rod


Pretty much Good Stuff.dec. Most of the best cards in UWrb are in the deck.

There are a few card choices I don't like, but overall this looks like a strong direction for UWx Staff control.

Staff is supported by Fable, Shark Typhoon, Wandering Emperor, Forth Eorlingas, and Bowmasters. The deck has a lot of draw-go play patterns that make it well-suited to ambush opponent with Bowmasters.