[MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

[rufus]

Maybe Sunken Palace comboes with Magosi, the Waterveil in Lands? - nope, it doesn't, the take a turn ability doesn't require mana. ...

If it's used once, that ability effectively costs 4 mana (2 activation cost, 1 for tapping the land, and 1 for having it enter play tapped) and seven cards from the graveyard. That may be too much to pay for an extra turn in legacy considering that Temporal Trespass is not playable.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Copying a flashback Echo of the Aeons seems possible and a winning line somehow. Or spiral tiding.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Copying a flashback Echo of the Aeons seems possible and a winning line somehow. Or spiral tiding.

This both resets your graveyard and accomplished virtually nothing as you will immediately have to shuffle back the hand you just drew. This is maybe the worst possible use of the card.

[FTW]

This both resets your graveyard and accomplished virtually nothing as you will immediately have to shuffle back the hand you just drew. This is maybe the worst possible use of the card.

You can use it to cast 2 Murktide Regent. Murktide won't see the "exile 7" part though, so instead of both copies getting buffed, neither does.

2nd worst?

With Lorien Revealed you can draw 6 with 7 lands + Delve 7. Might as well unban Treasure Cruise!

Edit: In line with this forum's meme, you could cast 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought copies, sacrificing one to the other.

[PirateKing]

Oh god if this turns into a bad-off the competition is going to be fierce :laugh:

[Zoid]

You can use it to cast 2 Murktide Regent. Murktide won't see the "exile 7" part though, so instead of both copies getting buffed, neither does.

2nd worst?

With Lorien Revealed you can draw 6 with 7 lands + Delve 7. Might as well unban Treasure Cruise!

Edit: In line with this forum's meme, you could cast 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought copies, sacrificing one to the other.

Shouldn't the first Dreadnought die before the 2nd resolves?
Well if you run Pandemonium....

[FTW]

You'd have to Stifle it, so you can sacrifice it to the 2nd copy.

[H]

You can use it to cast 2 Murktide Regent. Murktide won't see the "exile 7" part though, so instead of both copies getting buffed, neither does.
It's true neither would "see" the 7 exiled to the Sunken Palace, but I am pretty sure the copy would get whatever the cast Murktide got for Delving.

Because of 707.10:

706.10. To copy a spell, activated ability, or triggered ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell isn’t cast and a copy of an activated ability isn’t activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, “Casting Spells.”) Choices that are normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.

Not that I'd really advocate playing Sunken Palace in the first place.

[Zoid]

You'd have to Stifle it, so you can sacrifice it to the 2nd copy.

Truly, the biggest brain play of our time.

[Purple Blood]

Blue Stompy and Blue Artifacts have a lot of potential from this set. The bigger problem will be balancing deck composition. You can only afford so many slots for effects like
Up the Beanstalk
Kozilek's Unsealing
Simulacrum Synthesizer
Ugin's Binding

The rest of your deck must be low cost artifacts and 7s. There are more value engines than slots to put them. I wonder which will make the cut.

It definitely got a ton of support.

Ugin's Binding seems to be the worst one to me. Followed by Beans since it requires a second color in a deck already likely to be working with bad mana.

The deck will probably run some combination of:

Creatures: Patchwork Automaton, Thought Monitor, Emry, Kappa, the Affinity beaters
Disruption: FoW, Rebuke, and Chalice
Accelerants: Petal, Opal, and Baubles
Engines: Synthesizer and Unsealing (6-8 copies total?)
Lands: Archway, Sol lands, Urza's Saga (with toolbox), Seat of Synod, Islands, Otawara

The most interesting choices comes at the creature selection because there are way too many to include all of them. Does the deck want Froggy or more 7 costs? You can play up to 16 7 cost affinity creatures which is a lot. Maybe the cuts come from Patchwork and Kappa instead of Froggy? I don't think Nulldrifter is good enough as it too often will end up simply being a divination.

At how many number of 7 cost affinity creatures is Ugin's Lab better than City? I could definitely see a 1/1 split here.

It's also very difficult to support Kozilek's Unsealing and FoW at the same time. One pushes you towards all of the colorless 7 costs; the other requires more blue. I don't know if both can work together.

Could also try to fit in Painter combo and be less aggro but that might be too much going on for one deck.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Painter shuts down all your big colorless creature synergy

[Purple Blood]

What did you have in mind? The only one I see is Ugin's Binding which I really don't think is a playable card.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You can use it to cast 2 Murktide Regent. Murktide won't see the "exile 7" part though, so instead of both copies getting buffed, neither does.

2nd worst?

With Lorien Revealed you can draw 6 with 7 lands + Delve 7. Might as well unban Treasure Cruise!

Edit: In line with this forum's meme, you could cast 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought copies, sacrificing one to the other.

I don’t think the dreadnought thing works

[FTW]

I don’t think the dreadnought thing works

It works, as in it makes a copy, just like Echo of Eons gets copied.

[FTW]

What did you have in mind? The only one I see is Ugin's Binding which I really don't think is a playable card.

There isn't really room for Painter anyway.


//Lands: 18
4 Urza'a Saga
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Silverbluff Bridge
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Island

//Creatures: 18
4 Patchwork Automaton
2 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Frogmyr Enforcer
4 Sojourner's Companion
4 Thought Monitor

//Artifacts: 24
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Lavaspur Boots
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Simulacrum Synthesizer
2 Kozilek's Unsealing

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Metallic Rebuke
1 Haywire Mite
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus

[dte]

Archway of innovation seems really bad here: with only 2 islands, it comes into play tapped, and there is no spell it helps casting compared to basic island (spending UU to reduce colorless costs when you don't really have spells that need more than 2 colorless.

Have you thought of frogmite over automaton?
Much weaker on its own, but you already have 6 spells you want to cast before the big stuff, and frogmite bridges well with big affinity dudes/synthesizer/unsealing. Also, you probably often wants to cast chalice @2 in quite a few MU, particularly with synthesizers.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It works, as in it makes a copy, just like Echo of Eons gets copied.

It doesn't work because when the first one resolves it triggers while the second one is on the stack.

Now, if you had a dressdown or torpor orb out...

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

This both resets your graveyard and accomplished virtually nothing as you will immediately have to shuffle back the hand you just drew. This is maybe the worst possible use of the card.

Sure, if I drew no instants (like hightide) and no way to take advantage of infinite wheeling. I wonder if there is a card that fits into the intersection of the two subsets of cards. One that both has play with people drawing a ton of cards and has flash. Maybe it costs 2 mana and does work at any other time.

[FTW]

It doesn't work because when the first one resolves it triggers while the second one is on the stack.

It works, as in it makes a copy (the thing the land is supposed to do).

It's not GOOD, because the copy will die without an enabler (2nd Stifle, Dress Down). It takes some extra dancing and support to do more than nothing.
See Echo of Eons analogy.

PirateKing understood the "bad-off", apparently no one else did.

[FTW]

Archway of innovation seems really bad here: with only 2 islands, it comes into play tapped, and there is no spell it helps casting compared to basic island (spending UU to reduce colorless costs when you don't really have spells that need more than 2 colorless.

The idea is it would reduce colorless costs for 7-cost affinity creatures when you only have 3-4 artifacts. Improvise stacks with Affinity to lower the cost.

The alternative is to run more "middle cost" artifacts to bridge up to 7 (Frogmite). But Frogmite is weak. Archway is an experiment to see if you can jam extra Myr Enforcers to have more 7s. Current Affinity decks don't run as many 7s.

Edit: Frogmyr Enforcer solves this, doing both roles.


Have you thought of frogmite over automaton?

I debated that. Automaton's a better standalone threat. Frogmite feels like filler unless you have the exact right payoffs (need to bridge up to 7, or have Synthesizer).

The other reason is that without Kappa I still wanted a Ward grow finisher. When you Thought Monitor to draw 5, it helps when you can dump those 0s to make a big finisher and win quickly. I think the curve can't afford for that slot to be Kappa: Kappa competes with the 7s, while Patchwork competes with Frogmite. Cutting both Kappa and Patchwork seems bad.

[dte]

The idea is it would reduce colorless costs for 7-cost affinity creatures when you only have 3-4 artifacts. Improvise stacks with Affinity to lower the cost.


I understand the idea, I am saying it doesn't work ;)
To help cast monitor better than random land, you would need to have your 2 islands, this land, and exactly 3 artifacts, none of which are seat or mox. 2 or 4 artifacts, and it doesn't work. Of those you could realistically tap, you have 18.
Any artifact land comes untap and works better. If you want more U source, the artifact duals that come into play tap are better, and resist wasteland.

[FTW]

I understand the idea, I am saying it doesn't work ;)
To help cast monitor better than random land, you would need to have your 2 islands, this land, and exactly 3 artifacts, none of which are seat or mox. 2 or 4 artifacts, and it doesn't work. Of those you could realistically tap, you have 18.
Any artifact land comes untap and works better. If you want more U source, the artifact duals that come into play tap are better, and resist wasteland.

It only costs U to activate, not UU right? Why 2nd Island?

Casting a 7cmc affinity creature.

With 3 artifacts, cost = 4.
Archway + Island + 3rd mana source + 3 non-mana artifacts = 4 mana
With Island instead, 1 mana short.

With 4 artifacts, cost = 3
Archway + Seat/Mox + 3 non-mana artifacts = 3 mana
Archway + Island + 3 non-mana artifacts (don't need to tap the 4th) = 3 mana
With Island instead, 1 mana short

With 5 artifacts, cost = 2
Then you just tap Archway as Island.

It works on 3-4 artifacts and lets you tap Petal for Improvise instead of sacrificing it. But you're right, it's just +1 mana, so an artifact land or Sol land would be better.

[morgan_coke]

The way I'd build Affinity/Big Blue Colorless now after MH3 is something like this:

3x Ornithopter
3x Gleaming Geardrake
3x Arcbound Ravager
4x Sojourner's Companion
4x Frogmyr Enforcer
4x Thought Monitor

4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Mox Opal
3x Lotus Petal

1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Vexing Bauble
1x Retrofitter Foundry
1x Shadowspear
1x Lavaspur Boots
1x Springleaf Drum
1x Paradise Mantle
3x Simularcum Synthesizer

4x Thoughtcast

4x Urza's Saga
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Silverbluff Ridge
3x Synod's Sanctum
3x The Great Furnace
2x Darksteel Citadel

The idea is just old fashioned speed/card draw affinity, i'd love to get some ugin's dismissals and maybe faithless lootings in there, but space is tight

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Sure, if I drew no instants (like hightide) and no way to take advantage of infinite wheeling. I wonder if there is a card that fits into the intersection of the two subsets of cards. One that both has play with people drawing a ton of cards and has flash. Maybe it costs 2 mana and does work at any other time.

The point of a payoff in deckbuilding is supposed to be that it rewards you for the setup you jumped through a bunch of hoops to do. It's not supposed to be just an opportunity to jump through more hoops.

[PirateKing]

PirateKing understood the "bad-off", apparently no one else did.

Turns out the winner was the friends we made along the way

[dte]

It only costs U to activate, not UU right? Why 2nd Island?

Casting a 7cmc affinity creature.

The trouble is that the best "7cmc affinity creature" has only affynity for 6, and U in the casting cost. So you need a third source of U for it if you want to improvise. And then the cases when you can benefit from improvising become very narrow.

[FTW]

The way I'd build Affinity/Big Blue Colorless now after MH3 is something like this:

1x Vexing Bauble


I think Bauble has to be a SB card because it counters
Ornithopter
Lotus Petal
Mox Opal
Mishra's Bauble
Paradise Mantle
Sometimes it'll counter your 4/4s if you cast them for 0.


The trouble is that the best "7cmc affinity creature" has only affynity for 6, and U in the casting cost. So you need a third source of U for it if you want to improvise. And then the cases when you can benefit from improvising become very narrow.

Edit: And yeah, I edited the above decklist to remove Archway. Considering squeezing in room for a 3rd Kozilek's Unsealing.

[morgan_coke]

I think Bauble has to be a SB card because it counters
Ornithopter
Lotus Petal
Mox Opal
Mishra's Bauble
Paradise Mantle
Sometimes it'll counter your 4/4s if you cast them for 0.

Edit: And yeah, I edited the above decklist to remove Archway. Considering squeezing in room for a 3rd Kozilek's Unsealing.

Look man, that's just like, your opinion and stuff.

[Purple Blood]

There isn't really room for Painter anyway.


That was my original thought as well. But if you can make a different list with Painter it lets you support the Devoid cards and FoW. Your list is solid with the removal of Archway. Is Patchwork better than Kappa?

[Purple Blood]

The way I'd build Affinity/Big Blue Colorless now after MH3 is something like this:

3x Ornithopter
3x Gleaming Geardrake
3x Arcbound Ravager
4x Sojourner's Companion
4x Frogmyr Enforcer
4x Thought Monitor

4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Mox Opal
3x Lotus Petal

1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Vexing Bauble
1x Retrofitter Foundry
1x Shadowspear
1x Lavaspur Boots
1x Springleaf Drum
1x Paradise Mantle
3x Simularcum Synthesizer

4x Thoughtcast

4x Urza's Saga
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Silverbluff Ridge
3x Synod's Sanctum
3x The Great Furnace
2x Darksteel Citadel

The idea is just old fashioned speed/card draw affinity, i'd love to get some ugin's dismissals and maybe faithless lootings in there, but space is tight

I don't see the point of compromising your mana just to play Geardrake and the other half of Frogmyr. Not worth it.

[FTW]

That was my original thought as well. But if you can make a different list with Painter it lets you support the Devoid cards and FoW. Your list is solid with the removal of Archway. Is Patchwork better than Kappa?

Kappa is a better card, but for curve reasons I think Patchway fits better. It's another turn 1 play off sol land.

[dte]

Kappa is a better card, but for curve reasons I think Patchway fits better. It's another turn 1 play off sol land.

I wonder if you really need a big beater when there are 8 4/4 and 8 cards that pop huge constructs, and quite some draw. Don't you rather want to play more cheap artefacts to get going?

[Purple Blood]

I wonder if you really need a big beater when there are 8 4/4 and 8 cards that pop huge constructs, and quite some draw. Don't you rather want to play more cheap artefacts to get going?

Best options are Thopter and Urza's Bauble. Can go -4 Patchwork +3 Bauble +1 Foundry. Might be better.

[FTW]

The red one is strong for Aggro builds, no doubt, but it doesn't really solve issues against certain permanent types like problematic lands. At the very least, I would consider Sowing Mycospawn. Not only can it ramp, it can grab utility lands in the 75 like Karakas, Wastes or a single Wasteland if you need to kill a land asap. That it can deal with enemy lands once kicker is available is just the icing on the cake.

GreenDrazi came out the gates strong already. Top decks didn't bother with the Cloudstone Cutesy-o infinite combo and just played value creatures. The SB is very hostile to Necro storm!

Saturday Challenge 1st place: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6452232

GreenDrazi

//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
1 Forest
1 Wastes

//Fast Mana: 3
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

//Artifacts: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

//Eldrazi: 29
4 Endless One
4 It That Heralds the End
4 Glaring Fleshraker
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Sowing Mycospawn
4 Devourer of Destiny
3 Kozilek's Command

//Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Disruptor Flute
3 Dismember
2 Mindbreak Trap



7th place 5-2: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/6452234

//Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
1 Forest
1 Wastes

//Acceleration: 6
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Once Upon A Time

//Artifacts: 4
4 Chalice of the Void

//Eldrazi: 24
4 It That Heralds the End
4 Sowing Mycospawn
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 World Breaker
4 Kozilek's Command

//Sideboard: 15
4 Unlicensed Hearse
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Disruptor Flute
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Wastescape Battlemage

[Airwave]

Glaring Fleshraker is very very good :cool:

[Hanni]

Broadside Bombardiers seems pretty nutty in the Affinity lists. I'm pretty sure casting Frogmyr Enforcer for 3R as a 2/2 still gets flinged as a 7 mana value threat for 9 damage?

[Tylert]

No ones playing shifting woodlands in legacy? seems like a strong card with faithless looting. turn 4 min, you turn your land into an omniscience.

[PirateKing]

I tired something like it, problem was the high level of incidental graveyard hate from the field slowed me down that it almost never came together in time

[Tylert]

And Mutated cultist + dark depths?
Damn, I hate commander only cards :p

Can lead to a turn 2 thing like a 20/20 plus something along the lines of Ulamog the ceaseless hunger... and counters only counter the spell, not the cast ability.
Seems a bit low power for legacy, but still.

[FTW]

Jacked Rabbit X=9 lol

Chalice of the Void X=5 for FoW.

Karn, the Great Creator/The One Ring (the most reasonable colorless plays for black stompy)

[PirateKing]

if they unban Mind Twist, you know where I'll be :D

[FTW]

Karn, the Great Creator/The One Ring (the most reasonable colorless plays for black stompy)

Mutated Cultist removes all burden counters from The One Ring + adds mana to cast cards drawn.

If Karn, the Great Creator is at 4+ loyalty counters then Cultist also functions as ramp for Helm of Obedience + activate
(last turn +1, this turn -2 tutor for Helm/Ring. Don't try with Lattice)

Is Cultist + Ring/Karn actually playable?