[MH3] Modern Horizions 3: Rotation Days Are Here Again

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The leaks are true! The Cards are new! And nothing old is playable!
WELCOME! To MH3!
https://imgur.com/a/8EHWiyk

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Tron, Post?
Tronpost
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMbINxGXUAA6H1F?format=jpg&name=900x900

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GMbKiHPXoAAX7Ad?format=jpg&name=medium
8 Force-folk

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Dreadnought Enjoyers have Entered the Chat:
https://i.imgur.com/4bC74lY.png

[Zoid]

Weird that the parody set is now 100% legal.

Does Dress Down block the Evoke sac trigger?
I wouldn't think so.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Weird that the parody set is now 100% legal.

Does Dress Down block the Evoke sac trigger?
I wouldn't think so.

It does. Evoke is two abilities: first an alternate cost, and the second a triggered ability that says "When I enter, if I was evoked".

I've been running dress down in my dreadnought / elementals builds to sometimes just beat down with a 6/3.
The beauty of Null Drifter is that the trigger to draw 2 is on cast, so it won't be stopped by dress down.

[Zoid]

It does. Evoke is two abilities: first an alternate cost, and the second a triggered ability that says "When I enter, if I was evoked".

I've been running dress down in my dreadnought / elementals builds to sometimes just beat down with a 6/3.
The beauty of Null Drifter is that the trigger to draw 2 is on cast, so it won't be stopped by dress down.

The more you know.

You also draw the cards even if the drifter gets countered or you can find your countercounter in the 2 cards.

[Zoid]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/urzascave.jpghttps://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/planarnexus.jpg

Shenanigans are afoot.

[FTW]

So you can Stifle the Evoke sacrifice (2UU play) or EOT Dress Down and Evoke (2U play) and neither stops the card draw. Thrull works too.

That's huge compared to Uro, which does lose a draw to Dress Down/Thrull, and forces you into UUGG mana (although Uro is better on its own).

[FTW]

Flare of Denial looks like an easy 4-of in any blue creature deck with a lot of built-in card draw. Merfolk, Ninjas. Maybe 2 copies in 8cast.

Cave is slower than Crop Rot or Expedition Map but is uncounterable, taps for mana, and puts the land in play. Probably too slow for Depths, but good in Lands & Post. Nexus seems very strong in Post or Tron. Finally a Locus/Urza land that color fixes.

[morgan_coke]

Orim's Chant is in Modern now, irrelevant for Legacy, but there might be some new decks popping up with it.

[Cire]

https://media.wizards.com/2024/mh3/en_f95b1e9b39.png

Any Recurring Nightmare Combo with <3cmc

https://media.wizards.com/2024/mh3/en_873cd1038b.png

Unblockable attacker seems like a good finisher?

https://media.wizards.com/2024/mh3/en_0c9563dcc1.png

Is Goyf still good?

[Cire]

Mutated Cultist 2B
Creature - Eldrazi Horror
Devoid
When you cast this spell, remove all counters from up to one target permanent or opponent. The next spell you cast this turn costs {1} less to cast for each counter removed this way.
Deathtouch
1/3

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1ch2rzr/eldrazi_commander_deck_mh3_spoilers_and_reprints/

Removes the counters from Depths upon casting, so can't be countered.

[FTW]

Nethergoyf was spoiled a while ago and looks strong. Between this and the recent Stalactite Stalker, black finally has playable 1 drops.

Kappa is a reprint.

New Nightmare is another blatant dodge of the Reserved List, making a version for Modern that they can argue is functionally different enough from the original. They may continue to do that to basically kill Legacy and make a Modern format with pseudo Legacy staples but no Reserved List. Then they get an infinite Modern Masters/Horizons money printing machine.

[Purple Blood]

New Nightmare is another blatant dodge of the Reserved List, making a version for Modern that they can argue is functionally different enough from the original. They may continue to do that to basically kill Legacy and make a Modern format with pseudo Legacy staples but no Reserved List. Then they get an infinite Modern Masters/Horizons money printing machine.

That seems to be the intent or at least a "fixed" Legacy. That said, I don't see how it can ever truly be Legacy if there is no Brainstorm, Daze, Wasteland, Sol Lands, Depths, or Moxen/other fast mana (probably leaving out a bunch of other stuff too). Hard to find a Legacy deck that doesn't run multiple of these cards and I can't really see them putting most of this stuff in Modern even though I suppose they just put in a "fixed" Sol Land so maybe it wouldn't be completely out of the realm of possibility for them to keep encroaching on the actual Legacy pillars later on.

Other notables:

Seems like Eldrazi (other tribal too?) and the Rock archetypes will be getting pushed hard. Does Null Elemental Blast hit enough to make it worthwhile?

This set looks really interesting for Timeless, which is half decent for being an Arena format with a relatively limited (for the time being) card pool. Right now its basically "play all the banned Legacy and Modern cards" + Brainstorm.

[Zoid]

Flare of Denial looks like an easy 4-of in any blue creature deck with a lot of built-in card draw. Merfolk, Ninjas. Maybe 2 copies in 8cast.

I don't think so.
Unless you're going to lose by not countering, you'd rather pitch something from your hand than sac a dude.
Sacing a dude to counter removal on another dude still weakens you significantly and slows you down.

[Barook]

So you can Stifle the Evoke sacrifice (2UU play) or EOT Dress Down and Evoke (2U play) and neither stops the card draw. Thrull works too.

That's huge compared to Uro, which does lose a draw to Dress Down/Thrull, and forces you into UUGG mana (although Uro is better on its own).
Torpor Orb also works to stop the evoke trigger. And you don't just get 2 new cards, but also a 4/4 flyer with annihilator 1 for 3 mana. That's quite the pay-off.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/pheliaexuberantshepherd.jpg

This might be good. Repeatable flicker at a reasonable cost, doesn't die to Bowmaster, works great with Recruiter and you can even use Recruiter to fetch a one-of Containment Priest to start decimating the opponent's creatures.

That's a good boy.

[FTW]

Torpor Orb also works to stop the evoke trigger. And you don't just get 2 new cards, but also a 4/4 flyer with annihilator 1 for 3 mana.

Torpor Orb is not a great card. Doorkeeper Thrull does this better.

Not stopping the card draw is big because Dress Down & Thrull do stop the ETB card draw for Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (the competing 3 mana threat). Uro already has a better body, better fair mode, and a good attack trigger. But still getting to draw the turn you play it (even if countered) is a big deal.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nulldrifter has a stompy cost, a single color, and enabled by other stompy costs. It's biggest weakness isn't if torpor orb is better than thrull, it's that it's asking you to build a hybrid post/orb deck that I've been told a billion times isn't viable. I mean, after Orb your other enabler is Grim monolith and hope you have a second sol land.

[FTW]

With the stompy plan Illusionary Mask & Scroll of Fate & Cryptic Coat don't help Nulldrifter, so you're short on enablers. Running 4x Torpor Orb is not ideal (bad in multiples). Can't play Chalice @ 1 if you want Dreadnought. So you're reliant on Monolith ramp to 7 for something that's not Coveted Jewel.

You could play 4x Karn, put 1 Torpor in the SB, play 3 main. There's your 7 enablers. You could also play The One Ring. But again, you're competing with what Karn Forge and Coveted Jewel already do better.

At least the Dress Down + Thrull shell has proven viable (2% of meta on MTG Top 8). 2U can replace 1UG, dropping green for better mana.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

BG Eightgoyf, eh? Could be interesting.

[Barook]

BG Eightgoyf, eh? Could be interesting.
MH3 has an entire Goyf tribal theme. Waiting for the Pyrogoyf (:3::r:, whenever it or another Lhurgoyf ETBs, that creature deals damage equal to its power to any target) to be confirmed real, but it seems reasonable.

[Wrath of Pie]

MH3 has an entire Goyf tribal theme. Waiting for the Pyrogoyf (:3::r:, whenever it or another Lhurgoyf ETBs, that creature deals damage equal to its power to any target) to be confirmed real, but it seems reasonable.
Well, have to get all the sad Modern Jund players into Commander somehow

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think one of the commander decks is Jund Goyf Tribal.
MH3 appears to have a tribal theme but the tribes are all esoteric. Goyfs, eldrazi. Who knows what the others will be.

[Wrath of Pie]

I think one of the commander decks is Jund Goyf Tribal.
MH3 appears to have a tribal theme but the tribes are all esoteric. Goyfs, eldrazi. Who knows what the others will be.

Wizards apparently thought the term tribal was too offensive, now it's called typal (or kindred, if you want the card type)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Wizards apparently thought the term tribal was too offensive, now it's called typal (or kindred, if you want the card type)

It's not and they didn't.
If you're going to do this, meme correctly.

[PirateKing]

https://i.imgur.com/PeSG8iJ.jpg

Not sure what you're pushing back on for "memeing", but they did change Tribal to Kindred.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/card-updates-coming-with-khans-of-tarkir-on-mtg-arena

Unless you meant something else, I guess?

[Pittplayer]

https://i.imgur.com/PeSG8iJ.jpg

Not sure what you're pushing back on for "memeing", but they did change Tribal to Kindred.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/card-updates-coming-with-khans-of-tarkir-on-mtg-arena

Unless you meant something else, I guess?

I guess Kindred is better then their proposed second choice: Gang Gang.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Not sure what you're pushing back on for "memeing", but they did change Tribal to Kindred.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/card-updates-coming-with-khans-of-tarkir-on-mtg-arena

Unless you meant something else, I guess?
They changed it not because it was offensive (it isn't) but because it has a negative history.
They also did not make it "typal". No one should ever let the word "typal" escape their lips. Typal was the in-house placeholder for whatever they start calling decks that share a thing.
Kindred is the replacement for the type tribal.

[Barook]

I thought they abandoned Tribal/Kindred because was kind of a dogshit mechanic? :eyebrow:

[Zoid]

I thought they abandoned Tribal/Kindred because was kind of a dogshit mechanic? :eyebrow:

It is also really stupid in terms of what should be type-formerly-known-as-tribal and what shouldn't.
A lot of spells should be errata'd to get a type but they couldn't bother.

[Fox]

It is also really stupid in terms of what should be type-formerly-known-as-tribal and what shouldn't.
A lot of spells should be errata'd to get a type but they couldn't bother.
They are overtly trying to inject an additional card type without deckbuilding costs to pump Goyf. Blatant power creep without reason.

[Cire]

I thought they abandoned Tribal/Kindred because was kind of a dogshit mechanic? :eyebrow:

Outside Goyf, was Tribal ever useful? Goblins to search for Weirding or Tarfire?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I thought they abandoned Tribal/Kindred because was kind of a dogshit mechanic? :eyebrow:
Yeah but they brought it back for mh2 and it's part of the same block of changes they have for khans on arena

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Outside Goyf, was Tribal ever useful? Goblins to search for Weirding or Tarfire?

Sprite and bitterblossom

[dte]

Outside Goyf, was Tribal ever useful? Goblins to search for Weirding or Tarfire?

Prowess of the fair & Birchlore ranger / heritage druid

[FTW]

Outside Goyf, was Tribal ever useful? Goblins to search for Weirding or Tarfire?

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Nameless Inversion was in Standard and also Legacy viable maybe 15 years ago. Inversion is a "knight" spell so you can cast it unlimited times from graveyard.

All is Dust costs less with Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple. Saw Modern play.

Rebels could fetch Bound in Silence. Saw Standard play.

Lignify is indestructible with Timber Protector, grows Dauntless Dourbark, and can be freecast from Leaf-Crowned Elder. Saw Block play.

[morgan_coke]

Outside Goyf, was Tribal ever useful? Goblins to search for Weirding or Tarfire?

If they want it to matter they'd need to errata all the cards it makes sense for, but they don't appear to want to bother, so it remains incredibly niche and stupid. Meanwhile the cowards refuse to print a new Lightning Rift or put Astral Slide/Drift on Arena.

Slide let nonblue decks win Worlds twice in a row and the blue supremecists at WotC have never forgiven it.

[rufus]

Outside Goyf, was Tribal ever useful? Goblins to search for Weirding or Tarfire?

Post-tribal cards tend to have "[creature type] creature card" like Deathbellow War Cry instead of the "[creature type] card" that older cards like Goblin Matron have. So it feels like they're trying to make tribal irrelevant as much as they can. (Or maybe it's that "creature" is shorter than "permanent".)

[PirateKing]

Maybe it's just future proofing since Deathbellow War Cry puts them onto the battlefield, so "Kindred Sorcery - Minotaur" would put front and center all those weird Comprehensive Rules scenarios where the wrong type of card is used in otherwise benign situations.

But that's giving WotC a lot of credit /shrug

[FTW]

Maybe it's just future proofing since Deathbellow War Cry puts them onto the battlefield, so "Kindred Sorcery - Minotaur" would put front and center all those weird Comprehensive Rules scenarios where the wrong type of card is used in otherwise benign situations.

But that's giving WotC a lot of credit /shrug

I think there was a brief period (maybe just during spoilers) when Rebels could fetch Crib Swap, so they changed the standard wording to "Rebel permanent card" and "on the battlefield" instead of "put a Rebel in play".

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The rules already know how to handle when you try and put a not-permanent onto the battlefield. They just stay in whatever zone they were in before.
Ephemerate a cloaked creature to know more.

[Zoid]

Someone put a googledoc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s6rQ_7ng_jk5bsWsaApJFZsiUyGL39rkbXU-e4A8q8g/edit#heading=h.cyloeqv1jewn) of all the leaks together.

Personal highlights:


Necrodominance BBB
Legendary Enchantment (M)
Skip your draw step.
At the beginning of your end step, you may pay any amount of life. If you do, draw that many cards.
Your maximum hand size is five.
If a card or token would be put into your graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

Harbinger of the Seas 1UU
Creature - Merfolk Wizard (R)
Nonbasic lands are Islands.
2/2

Archway of Innovation
Land (R)
Archway of Innovation enters the battlefield tapped unless you control an Island.
T: Add U.
U, T: The next spell you cast this turn has improvise.

Bloodbraid Challenger 3RG
Creature - Elf Berserker (R)
Cascade
Haste
Escape–3RG, Exile three other cards from your graveyard.
4/3

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's weird they addressed the leaks but not all of the leaks

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It’s funny how with the benefit of hindsight, making Portal cards legal was the worst thing to ever happen to Legacy

[Wrath of Pie]

It’s funny how with the benefit of hindsight, making Portal cards legal was the worst thing to ever happen to Legacy
Worse than adding modern-day fetchlands in Onslaught?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Worse than adding modern-day fetchlands in Onslaught?

I mean yeah, I'd say it's worse than any individual card or even group of cards could hope to be.

Individual cards can be banned, or nerfed eg Companions even while Wizards shouts and insists that's not what they're doing.

But at this point you can't really conceivably unwind the direct-to-Eternal sets as a block, or their concept. Wizards' business model is too invested in them.

Honestly I was thinking about this getting into and watching premodern stuff lately, besides just the raw nostalgia I feel seeing Eternal Dragon and Ravenous Baloth be playable cards again, and the fun of Survival decks existing, I think a fundamental appeal of the format is just the fact that every single card in it has had to, at some point, been capable of existing in Standard. And then obviously there's some asterisks there that get resolved via the banned list, but insert sets just overwhelm what a banned list is capable of handling.

I'm actually really curious what a format that's *only* composed of formerly Standard legal sets would look like and am quite sure it would be miles better than Legacy.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Barrowgoyf 2B
Creature - Lhurgoyf (R)
Deathtouch, lifelink
Barrowgoyf’’s power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1.
Whenever Barrowgoyf deals combat damage to a player, you may mill that many cards. If you do, you may put a creature card from among them into your hand.
*/*+1

So, this races a Murktide, which is neat. Also fuels Necrodominance which is not nearly enough of a fix to Necropotence to not be stupid as fuck. Although at this point trying to figure out what cards are actually broken compared to the shit they just insert into the format feels like a crap shoot.

[FTW]

Arguably the problem started with Modern, WOTC's attempt to subvert the Reserved List by creating an Eternal format that started after the list ended, trying to slowly phase out Legacy.

In principle it was a good idea. Legacy staples were inaccessibly expensive to support a format intended to be the #2 format after Standard. Modern was budget Legacy/Extended. But then Modern went through a series of too many bans trying to create a stable format, and many players still preferred Legacy.

So then Wizards started making Modern-legal reprints of popular Legacy cards, to catch more of the Legacy player base. And then making new versions of Reserved List cards to catch even more.

But they couldn't completely alienate their eternal player base either. Us diehards still wanted to play Eternal. Eternal players were also a money-loser for them. We didn't need new Standard-legal sets (power level too low to matter in Legacy), we bought cards off the secondary market, supported dealers that made money off the Reserved List, keeping rarely-changing decks & depriving WOTC of profit.

If Modern was getting Legacy's old cards, Legacy needed new cards to make it a distinct format, and also new cards to make Legacy players buy product. Oh, I know, let's give them all the extra casual formats - Commander, Portal, Archenemy, etc. Then Legacy still has a distinct cardbase, and they can force Eternal players to spend money on new sets.

Maybe that's Portal's fault. But they would have found some way to sell direct-to-Eternal new cards, just to get Eternal players buying new product. They weren't just going to let us sit on our staple Xerox piles forever.

[Zoid]

Arguably the problem started with Modern, WOTC's attempt to subvert the Reserved List by creating an Eternal format that started after the list ended, trying to slowly phase out Legacy.

In principle it was a good idea. Legacy staples were inaccessibly expensive to support a format intended to be the #2 format after Standard. Modern was budget Legacy/Extended. But then Modern went through a series of too many bans trying to create a stable format, and many players still preferred Legacy.

So then Wizards started making Modern-legal reprints of popular Legacy cards, to catch more of the Legacy player base. And then making new versions of Reserved List cards to catch even more.

But they couldn't completely alienate their eternal player base either. Us diehards still wanted to play Eternal. Eternal players were also a money-loser for them. We didn't need new Standard-legal sets (power level too low to matter in Legacy), we bought cards off the secondary market, supported dealers that made money off the Reserved List, keeping rarely-changing decks & depriving WOTC of profit.

If Modern was getting Legacy's old cards, Legacy needed new cards to make it a distinct format, and also new cards to make Legacy players buy product. Oh, I know, let's give them all the extra casual formats - Commander, Portal, Archenemy, etc. Then Legacy still has a distinct cardbase, and they can force Eternal players to spend money on new sets.

Maybe that's Portal's fault. But they would have found some way to sell direct-to-Eternal new cards, just to get Eternal players buying new product. They weren't just going to let us sit on our staple Xerox piles forever.

That assumes that they ever in any shape whatsoever cared about eternal.
Modern was created to keep players burnt out by the constant standard rotation hooked with the promise of a more stable and larger format.

Now they reprint stuff into modern which they know is balanced or which they have balanced around previously so tools are available.
Then there are a lot of semi-functional reprints for commander as every product is a commander first product despite their labels indicating otherwise.

Legacy is a completely irrelevant demographic that only serves the purpose to produce templates to port to modern and to identify what is busted so they can ban or avoid prints.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Barrowgoyf 2B
Creature - Lhurgoyf (R)
Deathtouch, lifelink
Barrowgoyf’’s power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1.
Whenever Barrowgoyf deals combat damage to a player, you may mill that many cards. If you do, you may put a creature card from among them into your hand.
*/*+1

So, this races a Murktide, which is neat. Also fuels Necrodominance which is not nearly enough of a fix to Necropotence to not be stupid as fuck. Although at this point trying to figure out what cards are actually broken compared to the shit they just insert into the format feels like a crap shoot.


Yeah, this is a very good, workable Goyf.

[FTW]

That assumes that they ever in any shape whatsoever cared about eternal.
Modern was created to keep players burnt out by the constant standard rotation hooked with the promise of a more stable and larger format.

That's what Extended was. Extended was popular. The problem is once Ravnica rotated out of Extended, the format died.

Legacy was also popular for the same reasons: non-rotating format, larger card base, stable decks.

It became obvious people treated Extended as budget Legacy (fetch + shock instead of fetch + dual), catching players who liked a more stable & higher-powered format but couldn't afford Revised duals. They kept Extended alive delaying the Onslaught rotation until Zendikar fetches, but it died when Ravnica shocks rotated out.

Realizing Extended was dead but Legacy would always be too expensive due to the Reserved List, they created Modern as the fetch + shock format. Modern started off as an Extended reboot.

In order to make Modern a real format, they had to draw a line between blocks somewhere. It had to be after the Reserved List ended (Masques), but early enough to include shocks+fetches (Ravnica). I remember the exact cutoff being debated at first. They settled on Mirrodin block and the "Modern" card art for thematic reasons and MTGO card availability.

But that wasn't an ideal way to create a fixed Legacy. A lot of older cards were popular and of fair enough power level. So they eventually made Modern reprints.

If they wanted to keep on theme, they wouldn't bring old Legacy cards into Modern even if the power level is balanced. That wasn't what the format was "supposed" to be. It isn't necessary to have a more stable format than Standard. The only reason to bring in Legacy cards / functional reprints is to phase out the function Legacy once had: keeping the fun interactions & non-rotating format, but without a Reserved List.

Legacy was once the #2 format after Standard. It was hugely popular, so they had to care about it. But they didn't like it. They couldn't monetize it (stable format, few Standard-powered cards could make the cut). Yet it was prohibitively expensive due to the Reserved List policy. They couldn't outright kill Legacy. So instead they've tried to gradually invalidate the format over time or find ways to force monetization (make casual set Legacy legal & throw in 1 format-breaking must-have).

[Zoid]

That's what Extended was. Extended was popular. The problem is once Ravnica rotated out of Extended, the format died.

Legacy was also popular for the same reasons: non-rotating format, larger card base, stable decks.

It became obvious people treated Extended as budget Legacy (fetch + shock instead of fetch + dual), catching players who liked a more stable & higher-powered format but couldn't afford Revised duals. They kept Extended alive printing Zendikar fetches when Onslaught fetches rotated out, but it died when Ravnica shocks rotated out. They even made an exception to delay Ravnica rotation... but eventually it had to rotate.

Realizing Extended was dead but Legacy would always be too expensive due to the Reserved List, they created Modern as the fetch + shock format. Modern started off as an Extended reboot.

In order to make Modern a real format, they had to draw a line between blocks somewhere. It had to be after the Reserved List ended (Masques), but early enough to include shocks+fetches (Ravnica). I remember the exact cutoff being debated at first. They settled on Mirrodin block and the "Modern" card art for thematic reasons and MTGO card availability.

But that wasn't an ideal way to create a fixed Legacy. A lot of older cards were popular and of fair enough power level. So they eventually made Modern reprints.

If they wanted to keep on theme, they wouldn't bring old Legacy cards into Modern even if the power level is balanced. That wasn't what the format was "supposed" to be. It isn't necessary to have a more stable format than Standard. The only reason to bring in Legacy cards / functional reprints is to phase out the function Legacy once had: keeping the fun interactions & non-rotating format, but without a Reserved List.

Legacy was once the #2 format after Standard. It was hugely popular, so they had to care about it. But they didn't like it. They couldn't monetize it (stable format, few Standard-powered cards could make the cut). Yet it was prohibitively expensive due to the Reserved List policy. They couldn't outright kill Legacy. So instead they've tried to gradually invalidate the format over time or find ways to force monetization (make casual set Legacy legal & throw in 1 format-breaking must-have).

I only started playing competitively in the late 2000s but I remember nobody giving a shit about Extended outside of GPs and PTQs.
There was also basically no overlap between Legacy and Extended player base.
Extended was also killed off way before Modern was created.

Also, Legacy wasn't actually that expensive.
It only got expensive once they reintroduced Legacy GPs which started the huge hike in prices.

Even if Legacy was once very popular, that doesn't mean that they need to do anything about it.
There is no need to invalidate it.
When Modern was created, Legacy was already a dying demographic.

At this point, every other format is just an excuse to print more commander stuff which is what the power level is based on.
To push sales and keep the other formats afloat they print obviously OP stuff to ban it later.
Can't wait to see the Monke/Gaak of this set.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think modern was an extended replacement but also they wanted to not repeat the issues with extended which, as I remember it, was combo decks. Which is why so many combo decks were banned so early. Basically everything that was an extended deck.

[FTW]

Yeah Extended had too many broken combos so they pre-banned them for Modern.

Extended was popular since the 90s. It always had dumb combos. It was the format that let you combine blocks to jam together the best tutors + cantrips + fast mana + duals, enough to enable even flimsy combo kills like Pebbles and Trix.

Legacy took off by the mid 00s, just as the 2005 rotation shook up Extended, rotating out many older blocks but gaining Ravnica. So Legacy became the best place to play fun old sets, while Extended shifted into a role as the fetch + shock format. Aside from the forced Extended events (GPs, PTQs), the Extended player base were people who wanted a more permanent & powered format than Standard but couldn't afford Legacy.

By the late 00s the main barrier to Legacy was duals. Other price barriers: FoW, Wasteland, Karakas, Tabernacle, LED, Mox Diamond. Players who couldn't afford those staples ended up in Extended instead of Legacy. If you had duals you played Legacy. If you only had shocks, you played Extended.

To keep Extended alive they made a few adjustments to prolong keeping fetch+shock in the format. With shocks gone, Extended really died, because the main player base were people who had shocks instead of duals.

Modern was brought in to replace Extended around 2011. It was after Ravnica rotated out in 2010 and Extended died. When they decided how to define the new format, they wanted to avoid what killed Extended (fetch + shock rotating out) and what made Legacy a financial nightmare (Reserved List). That's why the Extended replacement had to start after Masques & before Ravnica, instead of just starting it where Extended finished and banning combos. Backing up to Mirrodin/8th was no fluke. It was fixed Extended & reserved list-free Eternal.

When Modern was first created, Legacy was the 2nd most popular format, with Standard #1. Legacy was thriving with the SCG series. Stealing players from Legacy was absolutely a goal of Modern. The Reserved List created a supply problem vs the demand of many Legacy GPs, so they wanted to replace those Legacy events with Modern events (no Reserved List cost barrier & fully monetizable by them via Modern Masters). They continued in that direction until Modern became the premier format.

Opinions over WOTC business policy were debated even then. Based on how that all played out, I've always held the position that Modern was brought in to replace & gradually invalidate Legacy. Why? So they could both dodge the Reserved List & have the most popular eternal format monetized, fixing what they didn't like about Legacy in its prime.

Using Modern Horizons to make functional Legacy reprints and duck the Reserved List is another slap in the face in the same agenda. They could print those for Commander without making them Modern legal. They're just blatantly adding more Legacy cards to Modern.

[morgan_coke]

The real death knell for eternal formats was Hasbro's execs being such a useless bunch of cunt fucks that they're losing huge $$ on everything but MTG, and so are cracking the game by printing "must buy powercreep" everywhere.

EDIT: i mean for me the real problem was when they started giving Blue the best creatures. Blue shouldn't have a better aggro 1 drop than any other color... but here we are.

[FTW]

Speaking of, have they spoiled the blue Goyf yet?

Probably something like

Fair.Creature 1U
Creature - Lhurgoyf
Flying
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, surveil 1.
Discard a card: Ward 2.
*/*+1

[Zoid]

Speaking of, have they spoiled the blue Goyf yet?

Probably something like

Fair.Creature 1U
Creature - Lhurgoyf
Flying
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, surveil 1.
Discard a card: Ward 2.
*/*+1

Not sure that there will be one since most of the goyfs will be in the commander deck which is BRG.

Just to be petty, ward doesn't work that way :)

[rufus]

Someone put a googledoc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s6rQ_7ng_jk5bsWsaApJFZsiUyGL39rkbXU-e4A8q8g/edit#heading=h.cyloeqv1jewn) of all the leaks together.

Personal highlights:

Necrodominace is clearly headed for the ban list if it's real, but what kind of decks would Bloodbraid Challenger and Archway of Innovation be good in?

[Purple Blood]

Hot take: Necrodominance is going to show Necropotence is a safe unban. The exile from graveyard clause makes them unplayable in the most obvious decks they would slot into. The not getting cards until next turn is also a big drawback especially for combo decks.

Archway is "fixed" Academy so start from there I suppose.

[FTW]

Archway seems good in Affinity: Improvise + Affinity double up. Thought Monitor and Sojourner's Companion need fewer artifacts in play. Sicarian Infiltrator can get copied more.

Necrodominance is much worse than Necropotence because you can only keep 5 cards, while Necropotence let you keep 7. It's still probably good in Doomsday.

[rufus]

Archway seems good in Affinity: Improvise + Affinity double up. Thought Monitor and Sojourner's Companion need fewer artifacts in play. Sicarian Infiltrator can get copied more.

Necrodominance is much worse than Necropotence because you can only keep 5 cards, while Necropotence let you keep 7. It's still probably good in Doomsday.

I guess we'll find out in time which of the spoilers are real, and which of the cards get themselves listed.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Speaking of, have they spoiled the blue Goyf yet?

Probably something like

Fair.Creature 1U
Creature - Lhurgoyf
Flying
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, surveil 1.
Discard a card: Ward 2.
*/*+1

Ugh. Let's hope not.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Necrodominance isn't enough of a debuff to Necropotence given that Dark Ritual is still legal, they printed Grief, and most of all the changes to the Mulligan rules. Like, I'd rather have Necrodominance with the new mulligan rules than Necropotence with the old ones, and Necropotence was still obviously too good with the old ones.

Like you can just mull until you have Ritual-Dominance and a Grief or Unmask in hand and the game is basically over.

[FTW]

Like you can just mull until you have Ritual-Dominance and a Grief or Unmask in hand and the game is basically over.

A deck with both Dark Ritual and free interaction wants it most.

Problem is Reanimator/Scaminator can't play it due to the graveyard exile clause, and those are the top Dark Ritual + Grief decks. You'd have to be a Grief deck without Reanimate (monoblack?).

Doomsday can protect with FoW/Daze and maybe Grief/Unmask, seems good there.

[BenBleiweiss]

Best hatebear ever printed?

https://i.redd.it/9saftgpkrwzc1.png

[Pittplayer]

Warren Soultrader and Gravecrawler is a near infinite combo.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Warren Soultrader and Gravecrawler is a near infinite combo.

Where infinite is your life total

[Purple Blood]

A deck with both Dark Ritual and free interaction wants it most.

Problem is Reanimator/Scaminator can't play it due to the graveyard exile clause, and those are the top Dark Ritual + Grief decks. You'd have to be a Grief deck without Reanimate (monoblack?).

Doomsday can protect with FoW/Daze and maybe Grief/Unmask, seems good there.

Yup.

Honestly seems overly clunky in Doomsday also. I would assume if that deck plays the card its not gonna be part of any immediate win lines but more so if they didn't find a Doomsday and want to use it to draw into the combo.

Also in considering whether new necro will be problematic, out of the two 60 card formats where OG necro is legal/restricted its not really a big part of the meta.

[Barook]

Best hatebear ever printed?

https://i.redd.it/9saftgpkrwzc1.png
This seems great. It's been forever since we got a good white 2 mana all purpose hatebear. Aside from being fetchable with Recruiter, it does combo with Phelia as early as T3. Or it can ramp you with Flagstones.

[FTW]

Honestly seems overly clunky in Doomsday also. I would assume if that deck plays the card its not gonna be part of any immediate win lines but more so if they didn't find a Doomsday and want to use it to draw into the combo

Yeah, it could be a secondary line. That's copies 5-8 of draw engine to Dark Ritual into, making Ritual much more consistent. Beats using stuff like Ledger Shredder or Baleful Strix or whatever else they ran to bridge those middle turns.

It means they can afford to get greedy with card disadvantage (Ritual, Personal Tutor, FoW, Grief) because they have ways to refill hand.

It's not great in any main Doomsday lines, but they could sneak it into a pile for "skip your draw phase" so they don't auto-lose to Dress Down/Stifle on Thassa. Still have to beat a 1/x!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A deck with both Dark Ritual and free interaction wants it most.

Problem is Reanimator/Scaminator can't play it due to the graveyard exile clause, and those are the top Dark Ritual + Grief decks. You'd have to be a Grief deck without Reanimate (monoblack?).

Doomsday can protect with FoW/Daze and maybe Grief/Unmask, seems good there.

You can do much better things drawing seven cards a turn than whatever scaminator is doing

[Purple Blood]

You can do much better things drawing seven cards a turn than whatever scaminator is doing

Have a list in mind?

[FTW]

You can do much better things drawing seven cards a turn than whatever scaminator is doing

5 cards a turn, with no value from excess cards (exiled). And you can't set aside cards immediately, so opponent can remove before you draw any cards.

You have to be a functional Grief + Dark Ritual deck when you don't have Necrodominance (majority of games) without having a scam plan. Those are the harsher limits. How do you make the 4x Dark Ritual 4x Grief in your deck into non-card disadvantage all the times you don't draw Necro or it gets killed before the draw. A lot of decks don't meet that requirement.

Monoblack might. Doomsday might. Black Saga storm might try to jam it without Grief.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

5 cards a turn, with no value from excess cards (exiled). And you can't set aside cards immediately, so opponent can remove before you draw any cards.

You have to be a functional Grief + Dark Ritual deck when you don't have Necrodominance (majority of games) without having a scam plan. Those are the harsher limits. How do you make the 4x Dark Ritual 4x Grief in your deck into non-card disadvantage all the times you don't draw Necro or it gets killed before the draw. A lot of decks don't meet that requirement.

Monoblack might. Doomsday might. Black Saga storm might try to jam it without Grief.

The point is that with modern mulligan rules, you will in fact have turn 1 Necrodominance the vast majority of games, very often with backup Grief/Unmask.

[PirateKing]

https://i.imgur.com/QFlyJIj.png

This feels impactful. Burn will want copies. Not sure if this is a card Delver wants for the mirror?
This does bury further the notion that Sensei's Divining Tops will ever get unbanned.

[Barook]

https://i.redd.it/xu6vz9r4d40d1.jpeg

This should be super good with 0 mana artifacts like Petal, Baubles and LED.

[PirateKing]

This should be super good with 0 mana artifacts like Petal, Baubles and LED.

Loam plus Petals/LED goes off if you have something to go off into.
Dust off the old Underworld Breach lists, this will be a deck.

[Cire]

https://i.imgur.com/QFlyJIj.png

This feels impactful. Burn will want copies. Not sure if this is a card Delver wants for the mirror?
This does bury further the notion that Sensei's Divining Tops will ever get unbanned.

Play alongside Enlightened and worldly tutor alongside a toolbox of cards to tutor/cast?

[PirateKing]

Play alongside Enlightened and worldly tutor alongside a toolbox of cards to tutor/cast?

E Tutor for a second copy and start ripping through your deck lol
You cast Ponder? I'll take 2 one drops, thanks

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There's already Sanctuary / Witch's cottage to really get this going.

Is there a good 2 mana draw spell? Something you can ppunish by Cottage your Bowmaster into?

[PirateKing]

lol haven't Accumulated Knowledge players suffered enough?

[FTW]

Lol with this you can win counter wars with Brainstorm putting FoW to TOP OF LIBRARY instead of hand.

In other words, Brainstorm puts 3 new cards in hand, 1 back, and Force their Force for free (cast from top of library and you don't have to draw through it)
Vs
Brainstorm replaces itself (2 cards back), and you discard 2 cards from hand to FoW

[Cire]

There's already Sanctuary / Witch's cottage to really get this going.

Is there a good 2 mana draw spell? Something you can ppunish by Cottage your Bowmaster into?

Not sure cottage is the play since to abuse any of the balances you need the instant speed library manipulation, unless you're just predicting what opponent will cast. Additionally, cottage seems rough with the RR cost.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Not sure cottage is the play since to abuse any of the balances you need the instant speed library manipulation, unless you're just predicting what opponent will cast. Additionally, cottage seems rough with the RR cost.

The "Instant speed library manipulation" requirement is simply a fetchland. That's why I brought them up.

[FTW]

Witches Cottage isn't good enough in most decks, but Mystic Sanctuary is.

It's good enough to splash some 2-mana counters so you can Sanctuary a 2cmc answer on top to counter things like: Bowmasters, Beanstalk, Prismatic Ending X=2, Counterbalance, Powerbalance, Animate Dead/Exhume, Chalice @ 1, Stoneforge, etc.

Jeskai can also run Hall of Heliod's Generosity. UR can run Academy Ruins. Grixis can run Volrath's Stronghold.

[PirateKing]

You think it's good enough to get cute with?

I just figured play a normal curve and generate value, especially in multiples, maybe with fetches to shuffle misses between triggers.

Getting a Bowmaster in response to their Bowmaster isn't a useful interaction, not sure what kind of shell you're considering though.

[FTW]

You think it's good enough to get cute with?

Only in the right deck. I'm considering it in Jeskai control, which could play it for regular value midgame and then runaway with control lategame with tricks like fetch-> Mystic Sanctuary or a 1-of Hall of Heliod. Grixis Control could try the same thing with Volrath's Stronghold (if there were enough playable value creatures). Those decks can also just play Counterbalance though, and the RR is harder to support, so it's a wash.

The faster decks considering it (Burn, Delver) probably can't afford to get cute, just jam it for value and hope to get 1-3 free spells from it. Delver could still run the 1-of Mystic Sanctuary. Those decks also sometimes have Counterbalance in the 75.

That's going to be the biggest problem. The decks that can best use it have to evaluate whether they'd rather play a UU Counterbalance that's easier to cast with Islands and pitches to Force.

Maybe some aggressive RG deck can use it creatively with Worldly Tutor.

[PirateKing]

As far as maintaining card neutral or even card positive, Mystic Sanctuary is fine, you fetch in response the the trigger and get a guaranteed spell, though what though?
I guess floating a Lórien Revealed in response to a Force of Will is the dream scenario, but would you crack your fetch just to get a free Ponder? Once you're card negative to cast a free spell it's not free anymore, so unless the hoops jumped through are worth that extra effort, I don't think we're valuating the card the same way.
Like sure, Show and Tell is card negative, but Emrakul. Reanimate is card negative, but Atraxa. You're on a RG deck with Worldly Tutor, what CMC spell do you see casting it in response, and what card are you getting? Some 2-3 drop? Off a 2 mana enchantment seems very low value.
The benefit over Counterbalance is this is proactive instead of defensive and works in multiples. Decks that have a pile of spells they want to cast in just about any situation would benefit the most. Not just because Burn is red, the goal of the deck fits extremely well into what Powerbalance is offering.
Optioning underwhelming lands just to cheese stuff to the top of the library involves your opponent playing along with what you're trying to do, and limits your options to CMCs they're already playing in the first place. If your deck is 1-2 CMC, then just casting the spells is the same value for no effort. If it's some kind of Bean breaker and your deck has Blightsteel to get them off Scion of Draco, well, now your deck has Blightsteel in it, what are we even doing?

I'm not up to what Jeskai Control is now, I could definitely see the temptation to get a free Lórien Revealed off their Force, or maybe a cheeky Swords when they Ponder. If you're on SFM, then sneaking a Batterskull off a Force of Will or Kaldra off Murktide is live in conjunction with Brainstorm, but these are plays with existing, established options that require less setup and less failcases.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

This red enchantment seems really bad but I am interested in excuses to ban Sanctuary

[FTW]

As far as maintaining card neutral or even card positive, Mystic Sanctuary is fine, you fetch in response the the trigger and get a guaranteed spell, though what though?

Top candidates are:
1) Opponent Forces your spell, you put Force on top to counter back. Your spell resolves & opponent 2-for-1d (spent 2 cards on Force, you spent 1 on Powerbalance & still have it)
2) Opponent Forces/Solitudes your threat, you put Lorien on top. Your threat is answered but you're way ahead on cards.
3) Opponent plays 1cmc, free Brainstorm (also setting up future cmcs for better odds)

Any URx deck can run those lines without jumping through hoops. Instant manipulation: 1 Mystic Sanctuary in the 60, 4 Brainstorm, 1-2 Surveil duals.

You're not forced to crack for Ponder. Mystic Sanctuary never had to get Ponder unless you were topdecking and had literally nothing better to do.


I'm not up to what Jeskai Control is now, I could definitely see the temptation to get a free Lórien Revealed off their Force, or maybe a cheeky Swords when they Ponder. If you're on SFM, then sneaking a Batterskull off a Force of Will or Kaldra off Murktide is live in conjunction with Brainstorm, but these are plays with existing, established options that require less setup and less failcases.

So I was picturing the Jeskai decks that were already optioning 1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity for stuff like Shark Typhoon. You wouldn't force a conditional land and extra enchantments just to support Powerbalance. But if a deck is already doing those shenanigans, Powerbalance slides in at low cost. Unfortunately you'd need to be 4c to put Beans on top with Heliod, and Beans outclasses most other draw engines (so it's hard to justify being non-Beans).

Some builds already support Counterbalance (Predict). That's another easy shell to try it in without forcing.

[dte]

There seem to be better option in URx, but what about burn, either SB or MD?
You do not need more setup than fetches (already played), a one-mana leaning curve, and perhaps a one-of surveil dual.

[rufus]

https://i.redd.it/xu6vz9r4d40d1.jpeg

...nonland permanent cards in your graveyard have retrace ...

This should be super good with 0 mana artifacts like Petal, Baubles and LED.

I guess Life from the Loam combined with eggs could be a way to recycle lands and fill the graveyard and then Thassa's Oracle wins, but it's graveyard-dependent and a little tricky to bootstrap.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Top candidates are:
1) Opponent Forces your spell, you put Force on top to counter back. Your spell resolves & opponent 2-for-1d (spent 2 cards on Force, you spent 1 on Powerbalance & still have it)
2) Opponent Forces/Solitudes your threat, you put Lorien on top. Your threat is answered but you're way ahead on cards.
3) Opponent plays 1cmc, free Brainstorm (also setting up future cmcs for better odds)

Any URx deck can run those lines without jumping through hoops. Instant manipulation: 1 Mystic Sanctuary in the 60, 4 Brainstorm, 1-2 Surveil duals.

You're not forced to crack for Ponder. Mystic Sanctuary never had to get Ponder unless you were topdecking and had literally nothing better to do.



So I was picturing the Jeskai decks that were already optioning 1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity for stuff like Shark Typhoon. You wouldn't force a conditional land and extra enchantments just to support Powerbalance. But if a deck is already doing those shenanigans, Powerbalance slides in at low cost. Unfortunately you'd need to be 4c to put Beans on top with Heliod, and Beans outclasses most other draw engines (so it's hard to justify being non-Beans).

Some builds already support Counterbalance (Predict). That's another easy shell to try it in without forcing.

Counterbalance actually stops what your opponent is doing and is easier to set up and still sees basically no play. Why would I want to commit to double red to just do some random things? If my opponent casts some game breaking two drop against Counterbalance and I hit another Counterbalance, that can win me the game. What do I care if I just flip another stupid power balance and get to durdle some more while they go off?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Like Counterbalance is obviously the card that pairs better with any top manipulation and is legal

The missing card in the Counter-Top strategy is Top, not Counterbalance

Feels weird to have to say this tbh

[FTW]

Like Counterbalance is obviously the card that pairs better with any top manipulation and is legal

The missing card in the Counter-Top strategy is Top, not Counterbalance

Feels weird to have to say this tbh

That goes without say. I already said above that it competes with Counterbalance in the same shells and Counterbalance is usually better (and sees play).

[Cire]

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fi6uuf376d60d1.jpeg

2WW
Instant - Rare
You may sacrifice a nontoken white creature rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Until end of turn, your life total can't change, and permanents you control gain hexproof and indestructible.

. . . . can you just ad nauseum as much as you like with this?

[Zoid]

2WW
Instant - Rare
You may sacrifice a nontoken white creature rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Until end of turn, your life total can't change, and permanents you control gain hexproof and indestructible.

. . . . can you just ad nauseum as much as you like with this?
https://i.redd.it/i6uuf376d60d1.jpeg
reddit images suck but so does this ancient forum source code.

Saccing a whit creature to combo seems not like something one wants to do.
This looks more like an "oh shit"-button so that people can keep overextending into wrath effects.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fi6uuf376d60d1.jpeg

2WW
Instant - Rare
You may sacrifice a nontoken white creature rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Until end of turn, your life total can't change, and permanents you control gain hexproof and indestructible.

. . . . can you just ad nauseum as much as you like with this?

You can

[rufus]

There seem to be better option in URx, but what about burn, either SB or MD?
You do not need more setup than fetches (already played), a one-mana leaning curve, and perhaps a one-of surveil dual.

I imagine that burn would sleeve up Eidolon of the Great Revel and Pyrostatic Pillar first.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/kozileksunsealing.jpg

This card is broken. Surely we agree that Myr Enforcer should not be a zero0mana Ancestral Recal?

[FTW]

Draw 3 is for casual players. Thought Monitorx4 Nulldrifterx4

Murktide Regent just gained Beans 5-8

[PirateKing]

turn 2 Beans, turn 3 this, turn 4 Murktide Regent, aw shoot, too many cards in hand, move to discard
such is life

[BenBleiweiss]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/kozileksunsealing.jpg

This card is broken. Surely we agree that Myr Enforcer should not be a zero0mana Ancestral Recal?

This is the first card I've seen from this set that I think is going to get banned somewhere. I put together a theoretical Modern shell for it, and I think there's even more stupid things you can do in Legacy thanks to real artifact lands + better win conditions and FOW.

4 Kozilek's Unsealing
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Nulldrifter
4 Sojourner's Companion
4 Thought Monitor
4 Pact of Negation
19x Artifact Lands
2x Boseiju
3x Win condition (Grapeshot? Empty the Warrens?)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

one of the leaks is Myr enforcer number 3 (that can be played for R as a frogmite)
so 12 enforcers.
Plus modern is getting sol lands (and in legacy, we just already have sol lands)
Plus the frogmites of the world with lotus petal and mox opal say you can even maybe cast two of these badboys and draw 6.
Draw your deck. Win with Thoracle.

E:
4 Kozilek's Unsealing
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Sojourner's Companion
4 Forgmite Myr Enforcer
4 Barricade Breaker
4 Frogmite
2 Mycosynth Golem
4 Thought Monitor
1 Thoracle

4 Springleaf Drum
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Not even counting the cuter freebies like Pride of Hull Clade or Improvise

[FTW]

In Legacy you don't even need to go full combo. 8cast/Blue Stompy is going to be nasty.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Urza's Saga
2 City of Traitors
2 Tolarian Academy V2

4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Kozilek's Unsealing
4 Simulacrum Synthesizer

4 Frogmite
4 Thought Monitor
4 Sojourner's Companion
4 Nulldrifter

[PirateKing]

What is the Tolarian Academy V2? Something else spoiled I missed?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What is the Tolarian Academy V2? Something else spoiled I missed?

A leaked land has "U, T: Your next [artifact?] spell (all spells this turn?) gains improvise"

[BenBleiweiss]

A leaked land has "U, T: Your next [artifact?] spell (all spells this turn?) gains improvise"

Archway of Innovation

https://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Archway-of-Innovation.jpg

[Purple Blood]

Unsealing...

8 Bean control?

Thought Monitor draw 5? Is anyone playing UG 8-Cast with Beans already?

Seems like this is the first card that will truly cause a lot of disruption to the meta.

Do nothing at first enchantment?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you held a spell you'll get first priority to trigger it after it resolves so I wouldn't call it "do nothing"

[Purple Blood]

Yeah...I guess that's assuming you play it off curve and hold up mana to get some value which isn't a hard ask to be sure.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Hold up mana?
Myr enforcer is ~free~

[Barook]

In Legacy you don't even need to go full combo. 8cast/Blue Stompy is going to be nasty.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Urza's Saga
2 City of Traitors
2 Tolarian Academy V2

4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Kozilek's Unsealing
4 Simulacrum Synthesizer

4 Frogmite
4 Thought Monitor
4 Sojourner's Companion
4 Nulldrifter
How are you going to support FoW if you only have itself, Thought Monitor and Simulacrum Synthesizer to pitch? Unsealing has devoid, thus you can't pitch it.

The starting question is probably going to be if Monitor/Nulldrifter/Unsealing by themselves are enough to keep going or if you should play Beans as well.

[Purple Blood]

Hold up mana?
Myr enforcer is ~free~

Fair :laugh:

I was thinking more for a Thought Monitor.

I wonder if this plus Beans can create a situation where the majority of the rest of the deck is all pitch and delve spells. Is there some clever way to utilize all the dorks that get created with the 5 CMC trigger on Unsealing?

[Purple Blood]

In Legacy you don't even need to go full combo. 8cast/Blue Stompy is going to be nasty.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Urza's Saga
2 City of Traitors
2 Tolarian Academy V2

4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Kozilek's Unsealing
4 Simulacrum Synthesizer

4 Frogmite
4 Thought Monitor
4 Sojourner's Companion
4 Nulldrifter

Full combo some combination of these:

Up the Beanstalk
Kozilek's Unsealing
Glimpse of Nature

Frogmyr Enforcer
Thought Monitor
Sojourner's Companion
Ornithopter
Memnite

Thassa's Oracle

Lotus Petal
Mox Opal
Mishra's Bauble

[Barook]

Are there any good ways to give mass haste aside from Concordant Crossroads? A plan B if you can't get to Thoracle would be nice and swinging with a bunch of fatties asap sounds good enough.

[Zoid]

Imskir Iron-Eater 6BR
Legendary Creature - Demon (R)
Affinity for artifacts
When Imskir Iron-Eater enters the battlefield, you draw X cards and you lose X life, where X is half the number of artifacts you control, rounded down.
3R, Sacrifice an artifact: Imskir deals damage to any target equal to the sacrificed artifact’s mana value.
5/5
Is there still some room for this guy?

Also MDFC with lands on the back return.
Some even have 2 colors + etb tapped on the back.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Is there still some room for this guy?

Also MDFC with lands on the back return.
Some even have 2 colors + etb tapped on the back.

Why spend 2 mana for a fuck ton of cards and die when you can spend 0 mana and draw a ton of cards and live

[Purple Blood]

Are there any good ways to give mass haste aside from Concordant Crossroads? A plan B if you can't get to Thoracle would be nice and swinging with a bunch of fatties asap sounds good enough.

Thoracle seems superior to any haste giving options. There is Akroma's Memorial but that is only reasonably cast off new Academy. The bigger problem and what likely makes this just a meme deck is that it miserably gets creamed by Bowmasters. Doesn't seem tenable to essentially automatically lose to such a prevalent card. Is there anyway for this deck to answer Bowmasters?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Thoracle seems superior to any haste giving options. There is Akroma's Memorial but that is only reasonably cast off new Academy. The bigger problem and what likely makes this just a meme deck is that it miserably gets creamed by Bowmasters. Doesn't seem tenable to essentially automatically lose to such a prevalent card. Is there anyway for this deck to answer Bowmasters?
Plenty of ways, the first being Bowmasters cost 2 and you go of before that
The second, and what will probably be the kill instead of thoracle, is aether grid. Just shoot it in your top 27 cards.
Or, spell bomb if you go saga. Or dress down since none of your abilities matter.

[Purple Blood]

Plenty of ways, the first being Bowmasters cost 2 and you go of before that
The second, and what will probably be the kill instead of thoracle, is aether grid. Just shoot it in your top 27 cards.
Or, spell bomb if you go saga. Or dress down since none of your abilities matter.

IDK about Aether grid it seems worse than Thoracle or even Concordant Crossroads / Brainfreeze.

Relying on winning turn 1 is dubious.

Spell Bomb and Dress Down are good options but do you wanna play Dress Down in a Saga deck?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

IDK about Aether grid it seems worse than Thoracle or even Concordant Crossroads / Brainfreeze.

Relying on winning turn 1 is dubious.

Spell Bomb and Dress Down are good options but do you wanna play Dress Down in a Saga deck?
Every hand that has an sealing should be able to cast it t1 and win. If it doesn't you built the deck wrong.

Aethergrid kills players and kills creatures that would stop you, and let's you turn all your dead draws into damage. GG even on a whiff.

[Purple Blood]

Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't see how you can cast Unsealing and a Frogmyte at the same time.

Best hand:

tomb/city
petal
unsealing
opal
any other 0 mana artifact
frogmyte
enforcer


Still doesn't work.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The new enforcer is also a frogmite.

[Purple Blood]

And?

tomb/city
petal
unsealing
opal
any other 0 mana artifact
frogmyte
enforcer

Play tomb, opal, petal, bauble. Tap tomb and opal. Play unsealing.

Hand is now 4 mana affinity and 7 mana affinity with three artifacts in play and all lands tapped.

Pass turn.

I suppose if you were on the draw it technically does work with adding any other zero mana artifact but we are literally talking the perfect hand and only on the draw.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

And 8 frogmite 4 grim monolith 4 mox 4 petals should do it

[FTW]

Yeah I don't see this working as an explosive T1 combo reliably enough. You'd need the perfect hand, or to probably be on LED + Echo.

But the fair mode in blue artifacts or Beans seems pretty insane. You only need 1 Thought Monitor or Nulldrifter to go way up on cards. I thought you could use those extra cards to counter stuff (FoW, FoN) but both Unsealing and Nulldrifter are "colorless" blue cards, -8 blue count.

Same with Murktide (different shell). Beans has already shown that just making cantripping Murktide is very annoying to beat. Murktide + draw 3, you're too far ahead in resources.

For full combo mode, does Metamorph copying Nulldrifter/Thought Monitor count as 7cmc? Probably not. Is there a way to bounce Myr Enforcer to keep replaying it?

[Purple Blood]

Yeah I don't see this working as an explosive T1 combo reliably enough. You'd need the perfect hand, or to probably be on LED + Echo.

But the fair mode in blue artifacts or Beans seems pretty insane. You only need 1 Thought Monitor or Nulldrifter to go way up on cards. I thought you could use those extra cards to counter stuff (FoW, FoN) but both Unsealing and Nulldrifter are "colorless" blue cards, -8 blue count.

Same with Murktide (different shell). Beans has already shown that just making cantripping Murktide is very annoying to beat. Murktide + draw 3, you're too far ahead in resources.

Hence why I thought the most likely way for this card to go broken was pitch/delve cards in a control shell.

FoW, Solitude, Fury, Grief, Murktide, Nulldrifter, etc. (not that you can play 5c pitch reliably but just as a list of potentials)

With so much card draw you can afford to pitch constantly and control the game through sheer card advantage and no longer being bound by mana.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

For full combo mode, does Metamorph copying Nulldrifter/Thought Monitor count as 7cmc? Probably not. Is there a way to bounce Myr Enforcer to keep replaying it?
No. It's a trigger on cast not etb

[Purple Blood]

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=12580&type=card

[Barook]

https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=12580&type=card
Interesting idea, but how are you going to generate 7UUUU from lands to draw your deck? We don't have Academy for that.

Equilibrium does interesting things with Unsealing since Frogmites can give you two activations with Unsealing which leads to either infinte mana if you alternate between Frogmites or drawing your entire deck if you alter between 4 cmc and 7 cmc creatures. Bonus points for being able to bounce Bowmasters. However, since it triggers on cast, you need two creatures to get started and the mana cost is kinda iffy, aside from being another card for the combo.

[Purple Blood]

There could be a deck somewhere with these cards:

Yorion

Leyline of the Guildpact

Brainstorm
Ponder

Force of Will
Flare of Denial
Endurance
Subtlety

Up the Beanstalk
Kozilek's Unsealing

Veteran Explorer
Flare of Cultivation
Uro

Solitude
Leyline Binding
Bowmaster

Murktide
Nulldrifter

Forth Eorlingas!


Imagine what happens with the Flare cycle if you have Leyline of the Guildpact in play. Veteran Explorer is probably way too cute but it can lead to some busted play patterns.

[Purple Blood]

Interesting idea, but how are you going to generate 7UUUU from lands to draw your deck? We don't have Academy for that.

Equilibrium does interesting things with Unsealing since Frogmites can give you two activations with Unsealing which leads to either infinte mana if you alternate between Frogmites or drawing your entire deck if you alter between 4 cmc and 7 cmc creatures. Bonus points for being able to bounce Bowmasters. However, since it triggers on cast, you need two creatures to get started and the mana cost is kinda iffy, aside from being another card for the combo.

The Palinchron deck would need hightide and wouldn't be an artifact deck.

Don't think you need Equilibrium in the artifact version since once you can actually get going it is likely very easy to start drawing you whole deck without having to resort to bouncing.

[rufus]

These lists have me wondering how win-more Kozilek's Unsealing will turn out to be. Spending 3 mana and a card is pretty significant for something that doesn't do anything by itself. And, most of the "cost reduced" creatures with cmc greater than 6 require a big commitment to work. Is something like Thirst For Knowledge going to be better in an artifact deck most of the time?

[FTW]

Palinchron is too clunky. It needs either:
A) 7 lands. But even control rarely reaches 7 lands.
B) High Tide + 6 Island to loop
C) 2 High Tide + 4 Island to loop
D) Archway of Innovation + many artifacts

B & C are worse than what High Tide can already do with Time Spiral. D doesn't work with High Tide.

Forcing the combo leads to win-more (or lose-more) tech that's fragile to disruption/mulligans.

But it seems strong in a fair shell. Is Beans worse than Accumulated Knowledge? The repeatability is where it really takes off. For the same reason you can't really compare to Thirst for Knowledge.

Yorion 8Beans


//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

//Enchantments: 12
4 Up the Beanstalk
4 Kozilek's Unsealing
4 Leyline Binding

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Negation
2 Lorien Revealed
2 Terminus

//Creatures: 17
4 Solitude
4 Nulldrifter
4 Murktide Regent
2 Triumph of Saint Katherine
3 Sailors' Bane

//Lands: 27
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 URB triome
1 WRB triome
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Karakas


11 draw 3s
8 more that make Spawn
30 cards that trigger Beans

Although you tap out for 2U (Unsealing, Nulldrifter), there are 8 Force + 4 Solitude + 10 1-mana removal so you can still interact.

Or just U Stompy

//Mana: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Urza's Saga
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Archway of Innovation
2 Otawara, Soaring City

//Artifacts: 18
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lavaspur Boots
1 Manifold Key

//Engines: 8
4 Simulacrum Synthesizer
4 Kozilek's Unsealing

//Creatures: 16
4 Sicarian Infiltrator
4 Thought Monitor
4 Nulldrifter
4 Sojourner's Companion


There should be enough payoffs that the deck is fine without Unsealing but draws insane # of cards with it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

These lists have me wondering how win-more Kozilek's Unsealing will turn out to be. Spending 3 mana and a card is pretty significant for something that doesn't do anything by itself. And, most of the "cost reduced" creatures with cmc greater than 6 require a big commitment to work. Is something like Thirst For Knowledge going to be better in an artifact deck most of the time?

Yeah it's really only worth it if you're triggering multiple times fairly reliably, based on the draw three. Otherwise you could just be running like, Painful Truths.

[Purple Blood]

Yorion 8Beans


//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

//Enchantments: 12
4 Up the Beanstalk
4 Kozilek's Unsealing
4 Leyline Binding

//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Negation
2 Lorien Revealed
2 Terminus

//Creatures: 17
4 Solitude
4 Nulldrifter
4 Murktide Regent
2 Triumph of Saint Katherine
3 Sailors' Bane

//Lands: 27
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 URB triome
1 WRB triome
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Karakas




This is what I had in mind except also with Dorks, Bowmasters, Guildpact, and Flares in place of stuff like Bane and Triumph. Consider Guildpact from hand can pitch all colors and in play any creature can be sacked to any of the Flare card. I think that has a lot of potential to tie everything together. That may be a different (modern) deck though since the Flares don't place nice with the Beans plan.

[FTW]

This is what I had in mind except also with Dorks, Bowmasters, Guildpact, and Flares in place of stuff like Bane and Triumph. Consider Guildpact from hand can pitch all colors and in play any creature can be sacked to any of the Flare card. I think that has a lot of potential to tie everything together. That may be a different (modern) deck though since the Flares don't place nice with the Beans plan.

So the problem with going for Bowmaster, Dorks, and Flares is you need a critical % of 7+ cmc creatures in the deck. Otherwise Unsealing is bad and you're better off cutting it to be regular Beans. Luckily there are enough playable 7cmcs.

If on Leyline of the Guildpact, play Scion of Draco.

The Leyline mechanic also clashes with 80 cards, so maybe drop Yorion too?

[Purple Blood]

What do you think is the minimum amount? Best options are Angler, Murktide, Nulldrifter, and Bane. Consider that a control deck getting even one 3 draw trigger is likely enough to put them over the top.

Also consider it is still really powerful to get the 4-6 trigger especially when you are playing a lot of high CMC cards.

[morgan_coke]

What do you think is the minimum amount? Best options are Angler, Murktide, Nulldrifter, and Bane. Consider that a control deck getting even one 3 draw trigger is likely enough to put them over the top.

Also consider it is still really powerful to get the 4-6 trigger especially when you are playing a lot of high CMC cards.

the problem is its a 3 mana do nothing investment to start with. Show and Tell wins the game on the spot and also costs 3 mana.

[Purple Blood]

The do nothing part was one of my initial concerns. That said, I don't find this comparable to SnT at all nor does the impact of resolving SnT somehow set the bar of what is a viable 3 drop in the meta as a whole.

[Whoshim]

I think Up the Beanstalk and Simulacrum Synthesizer show that "do nothing" enchantments with repeatable effects are powerful. Now, both of those cards do have an effect when they come into play. Kozilek's Unsealing actually does nothing when played, and it is more narrow than those cards, so I don't think it joins Tier 1 decks, but I think something can be built around it and be a Tier 2 list.

[PirateKing]

https://i.imgur.com/v5om0xe.jpg

This seems impactful

[Whoshim]

Looking at the most recent MtGTop8 MTGO League (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=55647&f=LE), here are the cards that would get stopped by this:

Reanimator: 4 Grief, 4 Unmask, 4 Lotus Petal
Rhinos: 4 Fow, 4 FoN, 3 Crashing Footfalls, 2 Endurance (+1 Endurance in the sideboard)
Beanstalk: 4 FoW, 3 Daze (Sideboard: 1 FoN, 1 Force of Vigor, 1 Surgical Extraction)
Lands: 4 Mox Diamond (Sideboard: 3 Force of Vigor)
Control: 2 Endurance, 2 Solitude, 4 FoW (Sideboard: 2 Force of Vigor, 2 Surgical Extraction)
Control: 4 FoW (Sideboard: 3 Surgical Extraction)
Ranimator: 4 Grief, 4 Daze, 4 FoW
Ranimator: 4 Grief, 4 Daze, 4 FoW (Sideboard: 1 FoN, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Surgical Extraction)

72/480 = 15% of maindeck cards
91/600 = 15.17% of total cards

This card looks to mainly affect Grief and FoW. There were no decks in this top 8 with baubles, which this would also hit. This cards is almost a combination of a Chalice on 0 + spells can't be countered, at least for the early game.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Looking at the most recent MtGTop8 MTGO League (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=55647&f=LE), here are the cards that would get stopped by this:

Reanimator: 4 Grief, 4 Unmask, 4 Lotus Petal
Rhinos: 4 Fow, 4 FoN, 3 Crashing Footfalls, 2 Endurance (+1 Endurance in the sideboard)
Beanstalk: 4 FoW, 3 Daze (Sideboard: 1 FoN, 1 Force of Vigor, 1 Surgical Extraction)
Lands: 4 Mox Diamond (Sideboard: 3 Force of Vigor)
Control: 2 Endurance, 2 Solitude, 4 FoW (Sideboard: 2 Force of Vigor, 2 Surgical Extraction)
Control: 4 FoW (Sideboard: 3 Surgical Extraction)
Ranimator: 4 Grief, 4 Daze, 4 FoW
Ranimator: 4 Grief, 4 Daze, 4 FoW (Sideboard: 1 FoN, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Surgical Extraction)

72/480 = 15% of maindeck cards
91/600 = 15.17% of total cards

This card looks to mainly affect Grief and FoW. There were no decks in this top 8 with baubles, which this would also hit. This cards is almost a combination of a Chalice on 0 + spells can't be countered, at least for the early game.


It also hobbles Omniscience.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You play that against grief scam they're just going to reanimate grief and you'll still lose

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You play that against grief scam they're just going to reanimate grief and you'll still lose

Yeah man those 1-for-3s are too OP

[morgan_coke]

https://i.imgur.com/v5om0xe.jpg

This seems impactful

huge win for fair non blue decks, i love it, also its not "opponent only" so the non fair decks wont just adopt it themselves

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

huge win for fair non blue decks, i love it, also its not "opponent only" so the non fair decks wont just adopt it themselves

Historically I feel like cards that neuter Force aren’t for the “fair decks”

[Cire]

Almost lock with Knowledge Pool?:laugh:

[Whoshim]

huge win for fair non blue decks, i love it, also its not "opponent only" so the non fair decks wont just adopt it themselves

I think a lot of decks will run it. The fact that the owner can turn it off for 1 mana and also get a draw out of it breaks the symmetry of the effect some.

[adrieng]

I see it very good in dark depth decks ; shuting down tempo decks and combo decks all the leds petal mox, beseech the mirror creative technique which were auto lose for dark depth ( i speak about gwdepth maybe in lands where you can play your mox diamond before the card and also maybe in bgdepth) might be playable in death and taxes but it still shuts down solitude.

The card can't be played in combo deck because it shuts down all the fast mana. I don't think the card will see ton of plays but it will definitely see plays because of the fact that you have to build a little around cause really lot of decks are impacted by the card, a little like playing chalice deck, you need to adapt your deck not to be shut down by your own card.

I see the card restricted in vintage like chalice of the void was restricted play your mox then this card, but it is an other format.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah man those 1-for-3s are too OP
Do you think a normal grief scam is a 2 for 3?

Because this line, like regular grief scam, is a 3 for 3.
In which I spend 3 cards: A black one, A grief, and a Reanimate, and get 3 cards of value: Your useless bauble, a card from your hand, and a 3/2 menace.

[adrieng]

Because this line, like regular grief scam, is a 3 for 3.
In which I spend 3 cards: A black one, A grief, and a Reanimate, and get 3 cards of value: Your useless bauble, a card from your hand, and a 3/2 menace.

bauble can still draw a card so it is not that useless

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

bauble can still draw a card so it is not that useless

It is until they do it

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Do you think a normal grief scam is a 2 for 3?

Because this line, like regular grief scam, is a 3 for 3.
In which I spend 3 cards: A black one, A grief, and a Reanimate, and get 3 cards of value: Your useless bauble, a card from your hand, and a 3/2 menace.

Useless in that it draws a card instead of you making me discard a card?

This is a really bad argument, do you seriously think that the initial instance of Grief doing something and not nothing is entirely incidental to this line of play being good?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I see it very good in dark depth decks ; shuting down tempo decks and combo decks all the leds petal mox, beseech the mirror creative technique which were auto lose for dark depth ( i speak about gwdepth maybe in lands where you can play your mox diamond before the card and also maybe in bgdepth) might be playable in death and taxes but it still shuts down solitude.

The card can't be played in combo deck because it shuts down all the fast mana. I don't think the card will see ton of plays but it will definitely see plays because of the fact that you have to build a little around cause really lot of decks are impacted by the card, a little like playing chalice deck, you need to adapt your deck not to be shut down by your own card.

I see the card restricted in vintage like chalice of the void was restricted play your mox then this card, but it is an other format.

Elves, Ruby Storm, and High Tide don’t care about it much but can use it protectively

[FTW]

You guys are missing other uses:
1) decks can cycle it at any time to dodge the symmetry
2) Urza's Saga target
3) does what Baubles do: digs, triggers Prowess, triggers descend, adds card type to graveyard, adds to Affinity, increases GY size, feeds Welder

Any artifact deck like 8cast, Painter, Coveted Jewel, and Black Saga Storm can play it as a 1-of Saga target. If they need to cast a 0, cycle. Until then it boosts artifact count and disrupts a lot!

Decks with Force could even play it if they're using Force defensively to protect a proactive line (Show and Tell, Dredge, Doomsday). It shuts off most enemy interaction you'd use Force on (Force, Daze, Grief, Surgical, Force of Vigor, Solitude). Helps protect when you don't have Force in hand. If you have both Bauble & Force and still need to Force something... pay 1.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Useless in that it draws a card instead of you making me discard a card?

This is a really bad argument, do you seriously think that the initial instance of Grief doing something and not nothing is entirely incidental to this line of play being good?

If you want to waste your t1 spending mana for the privilege to later spend mana to cycle your do-nothing artifact I will consider that Good For Me.
And I will smack you for 3 a few times while you do.

[morgan_coke]

Historically I feel like cards that neuter Force aren’t for the “fair decks”

Fair blue decks don't need it because they have force, fair non blue decks need it because they don't

[FTW]

There are also unfair blue decks that may want it (if only using Force defensively) and unfair non-blue decks that want to shut off Force, Grief, Daze, FoV, other combos...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you want to waste your t1 spending mana for the privilege to later spend mana to cycle your do-nothing artifact I will consider that Good For Me.
And I will smack you for 3 a few times while you do.

It’s literally blanking your strategy how is that do nothing


If you have to make shit up maybe your argument sucks

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Fair blue decks don't need it because they have force, fair non blue decks need it because they don't

This doesn’t stop most unfair decks

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It’s literally blanking your strategy how is that do nothing

what are you talking abouttttttttttttttttttttttt I still scammed you and and still get to beat you down with reanimate you still are dead ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


If you have to make shit up maybe your argument sucks

And yet you keep posting!

[Purple Blood]

what are you talking abouttttttttttttttttttttttt I still scammed you and and still get to beat you down with reanimate you still are dead ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Right. Because the opponent will play a 1 mana artifact and then do nothing the remainder of the game. Plausible scenario.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Right. Because the opponent will play a 1 mana artifact and then do nothing the remainder of the game. Plausible scenario.

Are we playing 4cb? Because I, too, also will get to to do things the rest of the game....

[dte]

Are we playing 4cb?

We do, and are missing you there!

[morgan_coke]

If you want to waste your t1 spending mana for the privilege to later spend mana to cycle your do-nothing artifact I will consider that Good For Me.
And I will smack you for 3 a few times while you do.

Are you legitimately arguing that spending 3 cards and 4 life to get a thoughtseize and a 3/2 is a good deal? Because its really, really not.

[Purple Blood]

Just imagine a very common scenario:

You play bauble on T1 and opponent is holding FoW. Either they immediately 2-1 themselves or FoW is a dead card until they can answer the bauble, which if they cannot do before you untap, results in a 2-1 anyway.

Then you get into the Reanimator conversation where you are blanking 8-12 cards depending on their deck.

Then you get into all the other zero mana stuff that this hoses.

Yes, stating the obvious, this is a great card and highly needed I might add given all the free crap they keep printing.

[Purple Blood]

Are you legitimately arguing that spending 3 cards and 4 life to get a thoughtseize and a 3/2 is a good deal? Because its really, really not.

But...but...the 3/2 will just kill you.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Are you legitimately arguing that spending 3 cards and 4 life to get a thoughtseize and a 3/2 is a good deal? Because its really, really not.

No.
I'm arguing that spending 3 cards and 4 life for a thoughtseize, a 3/2, AND my opponent takes their first turn off so they can play a piece of trash in the hope that they can later spend mana to cash it in is a good deal.
And it really, really is.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

We do, and are missing you there!

I don't have the bandwith for this season, sadly

[FTW]

I don't have the bandwith for this season, sadly

Even if you submit Akroan Horse+Wild Dogs as a joke and get 0 pts one round, it will be the ceiling deck and power down the whole format, making it much sillier the other rounds.

Then you can win with more fun stuff those other rounds, without it being all Lotus+Thassa vs Chancellor+Strip Mine vs T0 discard.

[morgan_coke]

Bunch of new cards:

R/W Titan - same as Uro and Kroxa, but casts Lightning Helix on enter and attack.

Whole bunch of hybrid mana spells with a dual land on the back.

Wrath of the Skies - WWX pernicious deed effect, uses energy

Harbinger of the Seas - 2/2, 1WW, Merfolk, Blood Moon effect but Islands instead of Mountains

Deep Analysis, Wirewood Symbiote, and the at least part of the Threshold Land Cycle are now all modern legal

[FTW]

Almost like they're trying to invalidate Legacy by adding more fun Legacy cards to Modern...

Does the RW Titan do Bolt (3 to any target) or Lava Spike (3 to opponent)?

[morgan_coke]

Almost like they're trying to invalidate Legacy by adding more fun Legacy cards to Modern...

Does the RW Titan do Bolt (3 to any target) or Lava Spike (3 to opponent)?

its any target, also costs 1rw to cast from hand, so no Lurrus resurrections with it

[FTW]

That might be Legacy playable. Jeskai control gains playable lifegain and doesn't need green for a Titan.

So many Legacy ports in MH3:
Wheel of Fortune
Recurring Nightmare
Gilded Drake
Whitenicious Deed
Medallion cycle
fixed Brainstorm
fixed Grim Tutor
Priest of Titania
Wirewood Symbiote
Meltdown
Victimize
Ophiomancer
Worn Powerstone
Deep Analysis
Cephalid Coliseum
Barbarian Ring
Apex Devastator
a Ruby Storm draw 3
some Commanders never Modern legal before
an Elemental Blast

[Zoid]

That might be Legacy playable. Jeskai control gains playable lifegain and doesn't need green for a Titan.

So many Legacy ports in MH3:
Wheel of Fortune
Recurring Nightmare
Gilded Drake
Whitenicious Deed
Medallion cycle
fixed Brainstorm
fixed Grim Tutor
Priest of Titania
Wirewood Symbiote
Meltdown
Victimize
Ophiomancer
Worn Powerstone
Deep Analysis
Cephalid Coliseum
Barbarian Ring
Apex Devastator
a Ruby Storm draw 3
some Commanders never Modern legal before
an Elemental Blast

Just to be petty: Grim Tutor is already modern legal as it was in M21 :)

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/strixserenade.jpg

The complement to Swan Song seems decent.

[Purple Blood]

Almost like they're trying to invalidate Legacy by adding more fun Legacy cards to Modern...

I said from the moment MH1 was announced that the end goal is to turn Modern into quasi-Legacy. All of the cards they keep printing that circumvent the RL through meaningless differences all but confirms that.

They are now also gonna do the same with Vintage and Timeless.

Either way it will never be exact. Modern is almost assuredly never going to get Brainstorm/Daze/FoW/Wasteland. Timeless is almost assuredly never going to get the Power 9.

[FTW]

Those will be the only lasting format distinctions.

Vintage is the place for P9, Shops, and other stuff too busted for any other format.

Legacy is the format for Xerox tempo (so they will never ban Brainstorm, Daze, or fetchlands - they'll ban everything else first).

It's already been like that for years, but these reprints are making the distinction even clearer, putting other "fun" interactions into Modern.

[morgan_coke]

I said from the moment MH1 was announced that the end goal is to turn Modern into quasi-Legacy. All of the cards they keep printing that circumvent the RL through meaningless differences all but confirms that.

They are now also gonna do the same with Vintage and Timeless.

Either way it will never be exact. Modern is almost assuredly never going to get Brainstorm/Daze/FoW/Wasteland. Timeless is almost assuredly never going to get the Power 9.

Timeless is straight trash right now. The Show and Tell deck is 1.xbillion times better than anything else in the format because there's no free counters or stax right now to deal with it, and it has things like Demonic Tutor to help it out with combo-ing.

[Purple Blood]

Timeless is straight trash right now. The Show and Tell deck is 1.xbillion times better than anything else in the format because there's no free counters or stax right now to deal with it, and it has things like Demonic Tutor to help it out with combo-ing.

I don't particularly agree. When is the last time you played?

As someone who has been on Omnitell in high ranked Mythic for the last few months, I'll agree Omnitell warped the format. There were about 2-3 weeks when Show and Tell was first made available and everyone was unprepared. During that brief period, you could just farm the entire format but the meta adapted months ago. There are plenty of answers and everyone is packing at a minimum Roiling Vortex / Rule of Law effects in the sideboard. Omnitell play rate has plummeted which I kind of miss because the mirror usually becomes a super complicated game of chicken.

I personally adapted to all the hate by going off the Approach win and instead playing a lot more disruption, Pick Your Poison, and Hullbreaker Horror but I've yet to encounter another Omnitell list playing this. If anything, but for Mana Drain the deck would already been below Tier 1. Which is another thing I like about this format: there is literally zero even halfway decent data out there so netdecking is really not a thing.

The various Grixis-type (BR; BU; BUR) decks give it a lot of trouble and are now taking over a larger portion of the meta. Ritual ->Thoughtseize -> Cycle/Reanimate Troll is not a beatable hand for Omnitell especially when its followed up by DS with Spell Pierce protection. Even assuming they don't have the nuts, they have a good clock and tons of disruption both in the form of counter spells and discard. Post side-board Roiling Vortex is annoying AF since it shuts off Atraxa lifelink and Omniscience.

I also find Rakdos burn to be an unfavorable matchup because they are combining a super fast clock with Vortex. Zoo is about 50/50 but people stopped playing that this month for some reason. Sorin/Ripper is a toss up mostly based on whether they can turn one a Ripper. Titan got completely pushed out of the format. Necro is surprisingly straight trash. I would much rather face a turn 1 Necro than a turn 1 Sorin.

Once MH3 comes out the whole meta will completely change and Omnitell is likely to become a Tier 2 strategy due to Vexing Bauble and Grief/Scam.

I expect Raxdos Scam to be Tier 0 or 1 at a minimum: Deathrite Shaman, Ragavan, Reanimate, Troll, Grief, Bowmaster, Dark Ritual, Thoughseize, and Scam card just seems overwhelmingly good and the deck will be buildable in a variety of ways (i.e. Sorin package; Necro package; Lurrus package; Reanimate Package).

Overall, I find Timeless to easily be the best format on Arena and its not even close albeit that's not saying much. Super interactive games that require a lot of decision making, punish you for small mistakes, a meta that is self-correcting given the breath of answers available, and the lack of online information leading to players actually having to play games and adjust based on their own judgment all makes for a fun experience.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Are we playing 4cb? Because I, too, also will get to to do things the rest of the game....

You just emptied your hand in this scenario while your opponent is down exactly one card

I mean I don’t even know how sold on the bauble I am but your arguments are just real bad here

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You just emptied your hand in this scenario while your opponent is down exactly one card

I mean I don’t even know how sold on the bauble I am but your arguments are just real bad here

Are you doing a bit?
I spent 4 cards, and have 4 left in hand. (Seven opener minus: land, Reanimate, Grief, Black card. gain: draw step)
You spent 2 cards, lost one, and have 4 left in hand. (Seven opener minus: land, bauble, card removed by grief)

Or do you just not think the scam archetype is playable as a whole?

[morgan_coke]

Are you doing a bit?
I spent 4 cards, and have 4 left in hand. (Seven opener minus: land, Reanimate, Grief, Black card. gain: draw step)
You spent 2 cards, lost one, and have 4 left in hand. (Seven opener minus: land, bauble, card removed by grief)

Or do you just not think the scam archetype is playable as a whole?

At this point you're like 2 steps away from saying One with Nothing is good because it puts stuff in your graveyard. I mean, you're arguing 4 cards for a Thoughtseize is good here, and.. it's really not.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

At this point you're like 2 steps away from saying One with Nothing is good because it puts stuff in your graveyard. I mean, you're arguing 4 cards for a Thoughtseize is good here, and.. it's really not.
This is the second time you've made this post, and like the first time you have misread what happens:

spending 3 cards and 4 life for a thoughtseize, a 3/2, AND my opponent takes their first turn off so they can play a piece of trash in the hope that they can later spend mana to cash it in is a good deal.

[dte]

You just emptied your hand in this scenario while your opponent is down exactly one card

I mean I don’t even know how sold on the bauble I am but your arguments are just real bad here

Scaming vs bauble: the situation 4 dogs described is that OTP you have full scam, OTD you do the equivalent of unmask + delver if the opponent had the bauble, and spent his T1 to cast it. You then know and can opt not to do it.
So in about 20% of the cases (OTP + bauble in hand), you would reduce scam from full power to delver + unmask, which is not great but not immediate game loss either. You end up with the same amount of cards but a better board presence.

I guess you would still side out scam OTD vs known 4x baubles, but bauble is hardly the end of scam.

[morgan_coke]

Scaming vs bauble: the situation 4 dogs described is that OTP you have full scam, OTD you do the equivalent of unmask + delver if the opponent had the bauble, and spent his T1 to cast it. You then know and can opt not to do it.
So in about 20% of the cases (OTP + bauble in hand), you would reduce scam from full power to delver + unmask, which is not great but not immediate game loss either. You end up with the same amount of cards but a better board presence.

I guess you would still side out scam OTD vs known 4x baubles, but bauble is hardly the end of scam.

nobody's arguing bauble is the end of scam, we're just dumbfounded that 4dogs continues to argue casting into it is a good idea, when its clearly not in every way conceivable.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

nobody's arguing bauble is the end of scam, we're just dumbfounded that 4dogs continues to argue casting into it is a good idea, when its clearly not in every way conceivable.

I guess I'm the only one who can count to four. It must be an inherent ability of being four dogs.

[rufus]

Does this ability copy itself? If it does, there's a silly combo with Spawn-Gang Commander.


Whenever you cast an Eldrazi spell, spell, you may pay {C}{C}. If you do, copy all spells you control, then copy all other activated and triggered abilities you control. You may choose new targets for the copies. (Mana abilities can’t be copied.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Are you doing a bit?
I spent 4 cards, and have 4 left in hand. (Seven opener minus: land, Reanimate, Grief, Black card. gain: draw step)
You spent 2 cards, lost one, and have 4 left in hand. (Seven opener minus: land, bauble, card removed by grief)

Or do you just not think the scam archetype is playable as a whole?

Have you heard of a card called Thoughtseize?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Like just to state the real obvious point, the issue with Bauble will be whether it does enough, not whether playing lots of spells into it to get countered is actually a good strategy

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Known 3/2 with menace, thoughtseize.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Does this ability copy itself? If it does, there's a silly combo with Spawn-Gang Commander.

It says all other.
But if you somehow trigger it twice, yes.

[Purple Blood]

Like just to state the real obvious point, the issue with Bauble will be whether it does enough, not whether playing lots of spells into it to get countered is actually a good strategy

I had to re-read the last two pages and gee...let's be real...no one is going to pitch cast Grief into a Bauble just so they can reanimate unless they think they will be losing the next turn if they don't.

But hey, if my opponent wants to do that, I am all for it! That puts me on 6 cards (really 7 since I can cash in Bauble) with them at 4 (with likely at least one of those cards also being a dead pitch card).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Do you think Bauble counters reanimate?

[Purple Blood]

If you are 2-0ing yourself so you can then 2-1 me, I am happy with that. First, you are down cards on that exchange. Second, you used a Reanimate on a lesser target rather than something that actually threatens to end the game. A 3/2 dies to everything body is not concerning. Besides that, you wasted 3 cards to Thoughtseize me.

[dte]

I had to re-read the last two pages and gee...let's be real...no one is going to pitch cast Grief into a Bauble just so they can reanimate unless they think they will be losing the next turn if they don't.


Let's be real, no one would ever FoW a spell unless they are losing next turn, that would be 1 for 2.

If you can grief reanimate T1 OTD vs bauble, I am sure there are situations (hand & MU) where you should, and some where you shouldn't.

The outcome is to have cast the equivalent unmask + pseudo delver (3/2 evasion for 1 mana) vs a T1 don't do much. Not great, but not really behind either.

If that is the only reasonable thing to do with your cards, you will cast grief + reanimate. I assume the only ones to bring this bauble are combo to counter FoW/FoN/surgical. Then it might be smart to have T1 threat + disrupt.

[FTW]

nobody's arguing bauble is the end of scam, we're just dumbfounded that 4dogs continues to argue casting into it is a good idea, when its clearly not in every way conceivable.

You won't ever agree on this one. It came up in the Dreadnought thread too.

4dogs also thinks Dress Down + Endurance/Fury is a combo spending 3 cards for draw 1+ 2-mana 3/x without the trigger. It's card disadvantage. But 4dogs thinks it's worth it to cheat out the pitch Elementals without the ETB trigger, just for the fast body. It will attack for 3 and win.

4dogs values the body over the ETB ability. It's still a Turn 1 3/2 Menace even with Bauble, just with 1 less Thoughtseize trigger.

Losing the Thoughtseize trigger makes it card disadvantage and more likely for opponent to have or find 1-mana removal. But you still get the fast 3/2. It's a disagreement over which is the better half of the elementals: the ability or the body.

[PirateKing]

https://i.imgur.com/0zmOW9C.jpeg

Let's talk about this instead.

Copy a dead Dark Depth is obvious.
Copying a dead Omniscience could be a line if your hand has Emrakul or something.

As long as you're not looking to tap whatever Shifting Woodland becomes, you only need 1 other green mana source.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

If you are 2-0ing yourself so you can then 2-1 me, I am happy with that. First, you are down cards on that exchange. Second, you used a Reanimate on a lesser target rather than something that actually threatens to end the game. A 3/2 dies to everything body is not concerning. Besides that, you wasted 3 cards to Thoughtseize me.

Just because you keep repeating the same garbage won't make it right.
Not 2-0.
Not down cards.
Not a lesser target.
Not just a thought seize.
You want to talk about disadvantage, you're arguments are oh-for-four against reality.

Have you just never played against UB scam? it's ok if you haven't. It was more of a modern thing until recently.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://i.imgur.com/0zmOW9C.jpeg

Let's talk about this instead.

Copy a dead Dark Depth is obvious.
Copying a dead Omniscience could be a line if your hand has Emrakul or something.

As long as you're not looking to tap whatever Shifting Woodland becomes, you only need 1 other green mana source.

Speaking of dreadnought...

[FTW]

The Bant lists could support 1 copy to copy Uro/Dreadnought & attack. But it needs 5 lands in play and risks ETB tapped, so more than 1 copy seems bad.

[Purple Blood]

Just because you keep repeating the same garbage won't make it right.
Not 2-0.
Not down cards.
Not a lesser target.
Not just a thought seize.
You want to talk about disadvantage, you're arguments are oh-for-four against reality.

Have you just never played against UB scam? it's ok if you haven't. It was more of a modern thing until recently.

The initial play i.e. getting your pitched Grief countered, is a 0-2. You then follow that up with a Reanimate on a Grief, which is a 2-1. You end up down cards because you spent 4 cards to get a Thoughtseize and a 3/2 i.e. basic math.

I'm not saying its a useless play or that Bauble invalidates the Scam deck. I'm saying Bauble can and will be boarded in against Scam and it moves the interaction from completely back breaking to something about even. It also invalidates alternative casting cost of other cards they may play such as Daze, Unmask, Force of Will, Snuff Out, Surgical. In short, a strong card.

Ultimately, I still don't think it will be very common for people to pitch into Bauble just to Reanimate. Dumping half your hand to take 1 card and get an easily removable body does not seem like a winning line most of the time. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and you can ride that 3/2 all the way home. As FTW said, agree to disagree.

[Purple Blood]

https://i.redd.it/ivd9rz9qa02d1.png

https://i.redd.it/9fu8r017y62d1.png

Do these start making an Energy package worth exploring?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The Bant lists could support 1 copy to copy Uro/Dreadnought & attack. But it needs 5 lands in play and risks ETB tapped, so more than 1 copy seems bad.

4. It doesn't need to tap

[morgan_coke]

Amped Raptor looks like a good way to cast the 0c Suspend cards without using cascade.

[Purple Blood]

Harder to do with Raptor because you can't do the deck building mana cost cheat cascade can do. But if you have a T1 energy producer like the new Burn spell you can cheat in a 3/4 mana spell on T2. Dunno if that makes it worth playing semi-subpar cards for that interaction.

[PirateKing]

I mean, yeah copying a dead Dreadnought is fine if you have 4 lands plus this.
I was thinking more some number of more direct "I win the game" type of permanents that don't involve the target permanent attacking directly.
Tap this for green, tap a Tropical Island and Ancient Tomb, Shifting Woodlands becomes a tapped copy of Omniscience, play Emrakul from hand.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sorinofhousemarkovf.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sorinravenousneonatef.jpg

In the right deck that can gain enough life, this card can nuke instantly with its PW side. Question is what would be the best shell for it.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/emperorofbones.jpg

Maindeckable GY hate isn't too shabby and has somewhat of a Sneak Attack angle with Agatha's Soul Cauldron. Aside from that, it can get really silly with cards that use the +1/+1 counters as a resource. E.g. if you exile Walking Ballista with Cauldron, you can shoot any counters on Emperor, reload two counters for 1B, shoot them again, reload for 1B, etc.

Given how all these cards are cheap and good on their own, I would keep my eye on that.

Edit #2: Apparently the fancy combo with Phyrexian Devourer and Soul Cauldron doesn't work due to rule 607, linked abilties. So no army summoned from the library.

[Fox]

I mean, yeah copying a dead Dreadnought is fine if you have 4 lands plus this.
I was thinking more some number of more direct "I win the game" type of permanents that don't involve the target permanent attacking directly.
Tap this for green, tap a Tropical Island and Ancient Tomb, Shifting Woodlands becomes a tapped copy of Omniscience, play Emrakul from hand.

Just copy Saga. It's a better 1x than Stage for this purpose, with less timing restrictions; no need for Saga + copy land to be in play simultaneously.

[FTW]

It does open up new lines for UG OmniTell. If they don't have Show and Tell, they can still put Omniscience *uncounterably* into play with:
SurveilDual -> mill Omni
2GG: make tapped Omni copy

That only needs Sol Land + UG dual + Woodland in play to go off, without casting spells. (Well cantrips to set up the top, but nobody is Forcing Ponder)

Seems good?

[FTW]

4. It doesn't need to tap

Until of end of turn, so if you want that Dreadnought to attack then you need 5 lands.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean, yeah copying a dead Dreadnought is fine if you have 4 lands plus this.
I was thinking more some number of more direct "I win the game" type of permanents that don't involve the target permanent attacking directly.
Tap this for green, tap a Tropical Island and Ancient Tomb, Shifting Woodlands becomes a tapped copy of Omniscience, play Emrakul from hand.

This is a lot of setup and like most of the other ideas I’ve seen for the card, I’m wondering what incentive people have to jump through those hoops when there’s a much easier way to slot it into an existing deck where it can cheaply and recurringly just make 20/20 flying indestructibles

[FTW]

For Dreadnought it's a lot of hoops.

For UG OmniTell it's a land they can easily play as a 1-of or 2-of that makes uncounterable Omniscience without needing to find or resolve Show and Tell. That seems big for a land slot.

To make a Dark Depths copy with 0 counters it's a decent but slow backup plan. Lands can easily run it but may struggle to get Delirium. GW Depths might? You could Crop Rot/Reclaimer/Knight your Depths into this in response to Wasteland

[PirateKing]

For Delirium, I'm assuming Life from the Loam is involved, and you'd end up with Uza's Saga (Enchantment Land), Life from the Loam (Sorcery) and either an Instant like Crop Rotation, any Artifact, maybe even Dryad Arbor as a creature. I'm not advocating it as a hard plan A, but I would not sleep on it, people will get got by this card

Though thinking about it if you want a hard plan A, if your opening hand is Shifting Woodlands, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Depths, either Elvish Spirit Guide or Louts Petal, and among the other 3 cards you had 2 other types, like Creature Instant Sorcery or Enchantment, you'd be able to make Marit Lage on turn 1. This is currently possible with Dark Ritual and Vampire Hexmage, but is transparent and would not survive a Force check. This would require at minimum casting one spell (Lion's Eye Diamond) and if they don't counter that, you can play Shifting Woodlands as land for turn, pitch ESG, sac LED and the 20/20 is in play.

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sorinofhousemarkovf.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sorinravenousneonatef.jpg

In the right deck that can gain enough life, this card can nuke instantly with its PW side. Question is what would be the best shell for it.

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/emperorofbones.jpg

Maindeckable GY hate isn't too shabby and has somewhat of a Sneak Attack angle with Agatha's Soul Cauldron. Aside from that, it can get really silly with cards that use the +1/+1 counters as a resource. E.g. if you exile Walking Ballista with Cauldron, you can shoot any counters on Emperor, reload two counters for 1B, shoot them again, reload for 1B, etc.

Given how all these cards are cheap and good on their own, I would keep my eye on that.

Edit #2: Apparently the fancy combo with Phyrexian Devourer and Soul Cauldron doesn't work due to rule 607, linked abilities. So no army summoned from the library.

Sorin is an incredible finisher for Life.dec, and he can be put in play with Vial on the turn they go off. I mean, gaining the infinite life was never that decks problem, killing the opponent easily and quickly was. Sorin very neatly solves that, far better than any other options we've seen, and as a 2 mana, 1 power creature he fits in with everything else the deck is doing already.

[rufus]

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sorinofhousemarkovf.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sorinravenousneonatef.jpg

In the right deck that can gain enough life, this card can nuke instantly with its PW side. Question is what would be the best shell for it.


There's dopey stuff like Ad Nauseam -> Children of Korlis plus Sorin of House Markov, but that's clearly win-more at best. It's hard to come up with a scenario where a deck wouldn't just win the game instead of gaining massive life. I think the closest thing to a legacy deck with a life gain game plan is Soul Sisters in modern.

[rufus]

This is a lot of setup and like most of the other ideas I’ve seen for the card, I’m wondering what incentive people have to jump through those hoops ...

I wonder whether shifting woodlands could make sense as a 1 or 2 of in a mono-green deck like Elves! where the down side ought to be pretty minimal and there's decent potential for up side.

[morgan_coke]

There's dopey stuff like Ad Nauseam -> Children of Korlis plus Sorin of House Markov, but that's clearly win-more at best. It's hard to come up with a scenario where a deck wouldn't just win the game instead of gaining massive life. I think the closest thing to a legacy deck with a life gain game plan is Soul Sisters in modern.

I'm talking about the old school clerics versions style. Putting Sorin in that deck is basically free from a deck building perspective and it provides an instant win button.

For examples see:

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/lifedec-3/

and

https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/life-dec-decklist-by-alexandre-koenig-2334

and

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1394231#paper

The win conditions are garbage like Felidar Sovereign, Doran, the Siege Tower and Test of Endurance. It's why that style of deck fell out of favor, even with the tutor packages from Living Wish and Eladamri's Call. Put Sorin in there and it's a whole new ballgame.

The framework of those decks was pretty solid with disruption from dudes similar to Death and Taxes plan, and tons of tutors and redundancy for the combo, it just never had a good way to win the game after it combo'd off.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

For Dreadnought it's a lot of hoops.

For UG OmniTell it's a land they can easily play as a 1-of or 2-of that makes uncounterable Omniscience without needing to find or resolve Show and Tell. That seems big for a land slot.

To make a Dark Depths copy with 0 counters it's a decent but slow backup plan. Lands can easily run it but may struggle to get Delirium. GW Depths might? You could Crop Rot/Reclaimer/Knight your Depths into this in response to Wasteland

It is vastly easier for lands to set this up than Show and Tell, both in terms of getting the target in the yard and in terms of getting Delirium, with the land being on color in the mean time and easier to etb untapped, easier to get it back in the face of Wasteland, and not needing another setup piece for payoff since you just instantly get the 20/20. And if they answer it it’s easier to get back.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I wonder whether shifting woodlands could make sense as a 1 or 2 of in a mono-green deck like Elves! where the down side ought to be pretty minimal and there's decent potential for up side.

Delirium is hard to get in elves, as are worthwhile graveyard targets, especially since this doesn’t interact with Craterhoof

[Reeplcheep]

This could fit in my esper enchantress well.

2B
Enchantment
When ~ ETBs or you draw 3 cards, amass 3

Turns off sarcomancy life loss, turns on lifelink from dreadhorde invasion.

[morgan_coke]

Birthing Ritual
Enchantment
1G

At the beginning of your end step you may look at the top 7 cards of your library, then sacrifice a creature, and put a creature from among those cards with CMC = X+1 or less into play where X is the CMC of the sacrificed creature.


Kind of like Survival, Birthing Pod, and Food Chain got drunk one night and had a baby. Definitely playable in a lot of decks. Multiples will stack, too.

[Barook]

This bird fucks:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/naduwingedwisdom.jpg

Aside from being a fat 3/4 flyer for 3 mana which is GSZ-able and pitches to Force, it gets incredible stupid with Breakfast-style cards since it also counts your spells and abilities. Thus you can farm two cards per turn per creature. Shuko can draw you two cards per creature. Kor creatures can also farm cards during your opponent's turn. Bird and one Kor creature already means 4 cards on your turn and another 4 cards on their turn - and that's just with those two. Any additional creature gives another 4 cards per turn cycle.

It's worth mentioning that the land it puts into are untapped. And it's a Wizard, if that's relevant.

[rufus]

This bird fucks:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/naduwingedwisdom.jpg

...Bird and one Kor creature already means 4 cards on your turn and another 4 cards on their turn - and that's just with those two...

I imagine that playing another copy of the bird gives each creature new copy of the ability and gives another 2 cards per creature. I'm not sure that the opponent is going to have any turns for you draw cards on once it starts going off.

[FTW]

I think it'll see more play in fair decks as a Leovold draw effect.

In Breakfast, if you have Shuko, which is better
1UG - Draw 2-4 extra cards per turn
1U - Win the game

Maybe it could work as a plan C if you can't get Illusionist or Kaldra.

[Barook]

I think it'll see more play in fair decks as a Leovold draw effect.
Bird can be found with GSZ, Shuko can be found via Saga. That's a pretty low opportunity cost, given how strong the combo is.

Edit:


1UG - Draw 2-4 extra cards per turn
1U - Win the game
On second thought, the bird could draw you your entire library while putting your entire land mana base into play untapped if your deck is built around it. You could play a bunch of 0 mana creatures (or more realistically, just cheap creatures since you're going to get more untapped lands over time anyway) and keep going. Chances are that you aren't going to stay at only 2-4 cards a turn once you assemble the combo because every other creature put into play means two extra cards (while giving you more "Free Explores" than Alex Bertoncini could ever use).

Edit #2:
Blinking effects like Essence Flux and Ephemerate on the bird should be able to completely reset the bird, thus giving you another set of draws for your entire creature base. Throw in the pitch elementals for the full scam experience and you've got something interesting to work with. Question is whether you want to go Bant for Ephemerate, Solitude and Kor creatures or go Bug for the black scam package including reanimate + Grief and Satoru for more extra draw.

[rufus]

...
Edit #2:
Blinking effects like Essence Flux and Ephemerate on the bird should be able to completely reset the bird, thus giving you another set of draws for your entire creature base. Throw in the pitch elementals for the full scam experience and you've got something interesting to work with. Question is whether you want to go Bant for Ephemerate, Solitude and Kor creatures or go Bug for the black scam package including reanimate + Grief and Satoru for more extra draw.

There are also token engines like Scute Swarm or Field of the Dead. It's not hard to end the game quickly with infinite card draw and infinite untapped lands.

[FTW]

Yeah, there are many ways to build around it and go off.

But are those cards good with Breakfast cards (without Bird)? It's a big deviation from the shell. So you'd have to decide which is the better Plan A and which is a backup.

1U Cephalid Illusionist is a good Plan A. Costs less. Needs fewer slots & less to go right to go off. The problem is not that Bird doesn't work, but that Breakfast already wins with fewer resources.

So then Bird is probably a backup value plan (in a deck that doesn't normally want green mana or GSZ).

You could try a separate UGx combo deck build around Bird + Shuko and these enablers to draw your deck. It's not weak to grave hate at least.

[Cire]

What's the Breakfast Shell now?

3-4 Urza's Saga
2-4 Shuko
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3-4 Nomads en-Kor
3 Narcomoeba
1 Thassa's Oracle
1 Dread Return

The usual blue shell

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
2-3 Ponder

Probably need at least 4 other protection spells - either Counters, discard or Silence.

Probably about 15 Lands?

That's around 45-49

Can you really fit in another shell around Nadu in 15-11 Cards?

I guess the smallest "shell" left would be:

3-4 Nadu
3-4 GSZ
1 Arbor Dryad
2-3 GSZ targets

Is that better than traditional Breakfast with SFM or splashing black for Bowmasters?

[Cire]

Flashing Fleshscraper 2C
Creature - Eldrazi Drone (Uncommon)
Whenever you cast a colorless spell, create a 0/1 colorless Eldrazi Spawn creature token with "Sacrifice this creature: Add C."
Whenever a colorless creature other than Flashing Fleshscraper enters the battlefield under your control, Flash Fleshscraper deals 1 damage to each opponent.
2/2

This looks potentially broken as well . . . even just with Baubles, makes them add 1 mana and ping an opponent. Start casting Ornithopters, they ping opponent for 2 and add 1 mana . . . and I'm sure there's combo's out there as well (edit - Cloudstone Curio and Endless One)

[Barook]

(edit - Cloudstone Curio and Endless One)
Eye of Ugin can also lead lead to cost-free Eldrazi Mimics. Or just two Flashing Fleshscrapers.

Given the amount of cast triggers the new Eldrazi have, Cloudstone Curio might not be the worst idea, especially since we have access to Eye of Ugin. Although I dislike that the Spawn gets created on casting, thus requiring another creature to start Curio bounce loop. Edit: I'm dumb - you can bounce the Fleshscraper and then cast it with the C to bounce the Endless One/Mimic to repeat the loop while dealing two pings per cycle.

Aside from Mimic, Endless One and Flashing Fleshscrapers, new cards I would consider:

http://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sowingmycospawn.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/nulldrifter.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/thiefofexistence.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/wastecapebattlemage.jpg

Other cards that might be good in this shell: Thought-Knot Seer and maybe Bearer of Silence, although the new Battlemage with its bounce kicker might be enough to deal with most creatures.

It's worth noting that Mycospawn not only is able to fetch Eye of Ugin, but it's also "free" if Eye and Fleshscraper are already in play since Spawn + the untapped green Land it fetches can pay for the :1::g: left. You could basically bounce it as long as you can pull green-producing lands out of your deck.

Edit #2: I wonder how heavy the deck should lean into actual green mana instead of Tribal green mana (aside from Yavimaya, which you should run as 1-2 off anyway due to Eye). Ancient Stirrings seems like a perfect card for the build, as it can find lands, Eldrazi or even Cloudstone Curio. It would be a great way to supplement Once Upon a Time (although this one can't find artifacts, but can find ESG). That would be up to 8 digging spells, which sounds great, but juggling that mana base sounds like a nightmare.

[FTW]

Since the deck wants Sol Lands, you might want Chalice, so Ancient Stirrings could be awkward.


//Lands: 23
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
2 Forest

//Colorless Eldrazi Creatures: 30
4 Endless One
4 It That Heralds the End
4 Wastescape Battlemage
4 Glaring Fleshscraper
4 Thief of Existence
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Sowing Mycospawn
3 Nulldrifter

//Artifacts: 7
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Cloudstone Curio

//SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember
3 Disruptor Flute


Could also consider Karn TGC, The One Ring, Once Upon A Time.

Curio + Fleshscraper is an infinite kill with:
- Endless One X=1
- It that Heralds/Battlemage + Eye of Ugin

Mycospawn tutors for Eye

Chalice counters StP & Bolt

[Captain Hammer]

I want there to be enough strong 7cc/8cc Eldrazi printed for Conduit of Ruin to be playable in some format, even if its just Modern E Tron.

Nulldrifter is a solid start.

[MD.Ghost]

While Green Eldrazi and Fleshwarper Looks nice i spin around with Linebreaker which is really bonkers in terms of aggro.

Something like this:

Main (60)
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 It That Heralds the End
4 Eldrazi Linebreaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Blight Herder
4 Devourer of Destiny

4 Sundering Eruption // Volcanic Fissure
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unlicensed Hearse

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin

Sideboard (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 "Kozilek's Command"
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Disruptor Flute

It has the option to go wide and offers a lot of aggro and enough disruption for the current Meta. Disruptor Flute seems also strong with Solland+ Flash, cause it could hit Wasteland ans Combo Cards, never really dead. Devourer of Destiny is very strong too!

[Barook]

While Green Eldrazi and Fleshwarper Looks nice i spin around with Linebreaker which is really bonkers in terms of aggro.

Something like this:

Main (60)
4 Endless One
4 Eldrazi Mimic
4 It That Heralds the End
4 Eldrazi Linebreaker
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Blight Herder
4 Devourer of Destiny

4 Sundering Eruption // Volcanic Fissure
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Unlicensed Hearse

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin

Sideboard (15)
3 Faerie Macabre
3 "Kozilek's Command"
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Disruptor Flute

It has the option to go wide and offers a lot of aggro and enough disruption for the current Meta. Disruptor Flute seems also strong with Solland+ Flash, cause it could hit Wasteland ans Combo Cards, never really dead. Devourer of Destiny is very strong too!
The red one is strong for Aggro builds, no doubt, but it doesn't really solve issues against certain permanent types like problematic lands. At the very least, I would consider Sowing Mycospawn. Not only can it ramp, it can grab utility lands in the 75 like Karakas, Wastes or a single Wasteland if you need to kill a land asap. That it can deal with enemy lands once kicker is available is just the icing on the cake.

[MD.Ghost]

The red one is strong for Aggro builds, no doubt, but it doesn't really solve issues against certain permanent types like problematic lands. At the very least, I would consider Sowing Mycospawn. Not only can it ramp, it can grab utility lands in the 75 like Karakas, Wastes or a single Wasteland if you need to kill a land asap. That it can deal with enemy lands once kicker is available is just the icing on the cake.

No doubt the Green one with on Cast Trigger and untaped Land is strong too, but its a different build and in this case slower (2R vs 3G is a world of difference here) both have clearly pros and cons and at the end i only hope to see eldrazi at least viable again. Seems Wizard printed at least enough options to Tinker around ;)

P.s. the Red Land can also act as a Land destruction sorcery If really needed ;)

[FTW]

No doubt the Green one with on Cast Trigger and untaped Land is strong too, but its a different build and in this case slower (2R vs 3G is a world of difference here) both have clearly pros and cons and at the end i only hope to see eldrazi at least viable again. Seems Wizard printed at least enough options to Tinker around ;)

P.s. the Red Land can also act as a Land destruction sorcery If really needed ;)

Interesting tradeoff between aggro speed vs controlling removal/2-for-1 value.

But no Fleshscraper even in a go-wide aggro build?

The Spawn help Linebreaker and get +1/+1 from It That Heralds.

For aggro would Reality Smasher be better than Blight Herder? Blight Herder has better synergy with Linebreaker but is much slower otherwise.

[MD.Ghost]

Interesting tradeoff between aggro speed vs controlling removal/2-for-1 value.

But no Fleshscraper even in a go-wide aggro build?

The Spawn help Linebreaker and get +1/+1 from It That Heralds.

For aggro would Reality Smasher be better than Blight Herder? Blight Herder has better synergy with Linebreaker but is much slower otherwise.

Needs to be tested - Smasher vs Herder

Smasher itself is solid as a stupid beater but at the end nothing more and powercreep went out of Control over the years the 5/5 isnt that scary anymore at the end of the curve.

My Ideas behind Herder with the new lineup was:
+With Hearse-GY Removal (Current Meta) Main, you get more Solid Exile effects to get Herder online
+Token lineup very well with LINEBREAKER, HEROLD-Pump and enable DEVOURER
+Cast Trigger happens (while Smasher May eats a counter or worst case gets Reanimated)
+You can Cast Herder under Bloodmoon (Meta) and Tokens enable colorless Mana for the Crew
+With Herold addition the Deck may go wide too with tokens, making it more resistent vs removal

So all of that MAY lead to the Change in terms of 5drops in favour of Herder over Smasher. Again Playtesting!

-----
Fleshwarper has awesome potential too - but instead of 1-2 Upgrades the Deck got so many new cards that slots are critical, so what to Cut?

Devourer of Destiny + It That Heralds the End are already 8 cards ;) You could argue Fleshwarper over Herder in terms of Mana, others would say why not both etc ;)

And than you have Vexing Bauble, Disruptor Flute and Kozilek's Command (Exile Lady Marit easily) and many more cards ....

[Zoid]

Monstrous Vortex
3G
Enchantment

Whenever you cast a creature spell with power 5 or greater, discover X, where X is that spell's mana value

Ugin's Binding
2U
Instant
Deviod

Return target nonland permanent you don't control to it's owner's hand.

Whenever you cast a colorless spell with mana value 7 or greater, you may exile Ugin's Binding from your graveyard. When you do, return each nonland permanent you don't control to it's owner's hand.

[Barook]

Ugin's Binding is such a dumb card, especially with Nulldrifter to easily trigger it.

[morgan_coke]

Ugin's Binding is such a dumb card, especially with Nulldrifter to easily trigger it.

I was thinking more "dumb card with Myr Enforcer and Sojourner's Companion"

I mean, why pay any mana at all for an effect like that?

EDIT: when did we change the card text thingy?

[FTW]

Blue Stompy and Blue Artifacts have a lot of potential from this set. The bigger problem will be balancing deck composition. You can only afford so many slots for effects like
Up the Beanstalk
Kozilek's Unsealing
Simulacrum Synthesizer
Ugin's Binding

The rest of your deck must be low cost artifacts and 7s. There are more value engines than slots to put them. I wonder which will make the cut.

[Zoid]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/trenchpost.jpg

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sunkenpalace.jpg

[rufus]

EDIT: when did we change the card text thingy?

IIRC it's 'cards' with an s. I was looking for ways to abuse Monstrous Vortex, and I could only come up with silly stuff like swarms of Ball Lighting or firing off all the Kroxas that are left in the deck at once.

[FTW]

As 4dogs pointed out elsewhere, you can make 4 12/12 dogs if you're willing to play Island without Brainstorm (-10 win%).

[morgan_coke]

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/trenchpost.jpg

https://mythicspoiler.com/mh3/cards/sunkenpalace.jpg

Maybe Sunken Palace comboes with Magosi, the Waterveil in Lands? - nope, it doesn't, the take a turn ability doesn't require mana.

I don't think the Locus really does anything besides maybe adding a ninth copy to Titan-post, but I don't know thats what the deck is really missing.