"For each Card Drawn This Way" and Draw Replacement

[rufus]

Suppose that a player has Alhammarret's Archive in play, and has Read the Runes with X=5 resolve targeting them on the opponent's end step. Does that play have to discard any cards or sacrifice any permanents, and, if so, how many?



Read the Runes X:u:

Instant

Draw X cards. For each card drawn this way, discard a card unless you sacrifice a permanent.




Alhammarret's Archive :5:

Legendary Artifact

If you would gain life, you gain twice that much life instead.

If you would draw a card except the first one you draw in each of your draw steps, draw two cards instead.

[H]

Suppose that a player has Alhammarret's Archive in play, and has Read the Runes with X=5 resolve targeting them on the opponent's end step. Does that play have to discard any cards or sacrifice any permanents, and, if so, how many?

Because Archive is a replacement effect, you would draw 10 and then have to 10 decisions to make, either discard 10, sacrifice 10 permanents, or some combination thereof.

This is different than is you Read the Runes with X=5, then Dredged five cards, because in that case you would have actually "drawn 0 cards in this way" as far as Read the Runes is concerned.

[rufus]

...

This is different than is you Read the Runes with X=5, then Dredged five cards, because in that case you would have actually "drawn 0 cards in this way" as far as Read the Runes is concerned.

Thank you for the answer. So it doesn't matter that the cards were drawn by the archive's ability rather than by read the runes.

Does it also work that way if both players have a Notion Thief in play?

[Zoid]

Thank you for the answer. So it doesn't matter that the cards were drawn by the archive's ability rather than by read the runes.

Does it also work that way if both players have a Notion Thief in play?

Your opponents thief replaces your draws which are in turn replaced by your thief so both cancel each other out.

[rufus]

Your opponents thief replaces your draws which are in turn replaced by your thief so both cancel each other out.

I understand that the card draw gets replaced twice, so that they cancel each other out in terms of who draws the cards. I was wondering whether the "for each card drawn this way..." stuff from Read the Runes still applies.

[Zoid]

I understand that the card draw gets replaced twice, so that they cancel each other out in terms of who draws the cards. I was wondering whether the "for each card drawn this way..." stuff from Read the Runes still applies.

Well, what is the difference to the replacement with the Archive then?
It just cares about how many cards are being draw after all replacement have been applied.

[PirateKing]

Replacement effects just overwrite the previous effect. The way the cards work, Read the Runes wouldn't even be aware something was replaced, it'll just chug along.

So:
Read the Runes will say "Draw X cards" in hand.
Read the Runes will say "Draw 5 cards" on cast because you set the value of X as 5.
Read the Runes will say "Draw 10 cards" on resolution because 5 was replaced by Alhammarret's Archive

The rest of Read the Runes has no knowledge of any replacement or change, it just follows the text of the card and looks for how many cards were drawn. There's no difference in what the cause or the source otherwise of the number.

[H]

PK has it right, the replacement effect does exactly what the name implies, it completely replaces the original effect with the new condition. So, indeed, Archive completely replaces Read the Runes effect of Draw X with Draw 2X and then the rest of Read the Runes goes on with that larger number.

It would be different if somehow Archive was a triggered ability, but that really wouldn't work. As it is, Archive is never a source of life or of card draw, it just replaces instances of either with more.

[rufus]

Well, what is the difference to the replacement with the Archive then?
It just cares about how many cards are being draw after all replacement have been applied.

When I read the rules, it seemed like there should have be no discard when the archive replaces the card draw (I added the bold):



614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn
trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can’t be carried out, in
which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.


The scenario with two notion thieves was meant to be one where where the draw from Read the Runes is first replaced with something that isn't the player drawing a card (so that the "for each card drawn this way ... does not apply) and then re-replaced with the player drawing cards. It's strange to me that a second replacement would create card draw that's connected to Read the Runes from something that is ostensibly not. (Maybe I should have chosen a different scenario like replacing card draw with game loss with Forbidden Crypt and then replacing game loss with card draw with Lich's Mirror.)

[H]

I mean, that is true, "Draw X" never happens, the "modified event" which is "Draw 2X" does happen though. And Read the Runes is worded in a way that the number of discards/sacrifices are not "set" upon the spell being cast, or even on the spell resolving, it's "set" on actually drawing the cards.

[PirateKing]

Okay, so Read the Runes x=5 with Forbidden Crypt and Lich's Mirror

"Return 5 cards from your graveyard to your hand. If you can't, shuffle your hand, your graveyard, and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20. For each card drawn this way, discard a card unless you sacrifice a permanent."

Pretty sure that's how the spell will resolve.
Depending on the number of cards in your graveyard, Read the Runes will be exiled because of Forbidden Crypt or you'll shuffle everything back and have to discard 7 cards and Read the Runes goes to the graveyard.