[Deck] Suicide Black

[Galroth]

I've been tinkering with a sui/aggro black build for quite sometime now. It was originally inspired by a pox variant I saw that could transition via sideboard into sui-black. Mono-black can do this because no matter the build it retains a base of cards which are uniformly too good not to run (read: duress, hymn to tourach, dark ritual, sinkhole, etc.)

Black also has possibly the best selection of hate cards this format offers. Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague... sometimes black is splashed just for these kind of options.

The idea was to create a transitional deck based from a 45 card skeleton leaving 30 cards of sideboard hate - some generic, some specific.

In my testing this has been phenomenal, which is part of the reason I'm posting it. Quite literally it is my best deck (I don't play Tier 1). Alright, enough of me blabbing... to the deck, then discussion.

45 Card Skeleton:

Lands (18)
18x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Utility (12)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
Creatures (8)
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
Other (3)
3x Unearth

30 Card Sideboard:

Combo/Control
4x Duress
4x Phyrexian Negator
Aggro/Weenie/Fish
4x Engineered Plague
4x Plague Spitter
Threshold/Madness/Graveyard
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Dystopia
Generic
3x Small Pox
3x Serum Powder

Because of the structure of the deck, the cards have poorer synergy than normal. The tradeoff to this poor synergy is the ability to deck twice as much hate as is typical. Again, in my testing this tradeoff is fully worth it. An extreme example: say your playing against Goblins and you have both a Plague Spitter and Negator in hand. You're never going to drop your Negator because of his poor interaction with Plague Spitter. But having the Plague Spitter out against Goblins is completely worth the wasted card in hand. When/if Plague Spitter dies, then you can drop Negator... that type of thing.

First question: why the Unearths? Well, you're running alot of disruption and hate and not alot of creatures. Your creature base will be more typical of Deadguy than more creature intensive builds. Additionally, your creatures can absolutely wreck face in certain matchups. The countered first turn Hypnotic or Negator back on the second turn is a play that wins games. Unearth can target everyone of your creatures, is never truly dead because it can be cycled, brings back cards that the opponent hates dealing with, and virtually ups your creature count. That's why - it works.

Alright, so the initial build would include the aforementioned skeleton and:

4x Duress
4x Negator
4x Plague Spitter
3x Small Pox

I know, I know, Negator and Spitter have really poor synergy. I'm open for recommendations if there are any. This gives you the highest creature count you can get and you don't have to play the two in conjunction. I rarely do. Drop a Spitter, clear the board, then drop dual Negators or what not. The deck in its initial form plays like suicide black. Not perfectly tuned and a little more controlling than usual, but basically suicide black. This initial build has positive matchs-ups against control, most combo, and many aggro-control variants outside of Threshold. It goes near even with most Tier 2, and is good enough to beat most Rogue decks. Against Goblins and Threshold... expect game 1 to be 30%-40% in your favor. Goblins is the worse of the two.

Boarding Plan (this if the fun part!)

Goblins:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Plague Spitter
3x Serum Powder
4x (whatever the hell you want)
If you can't win with the set up God hates you. The matchup swings to roughly 70%-75% in your favor games 2 and 3.

Fish / Other Weenie:
The same boarding plan used for Goblins can be used for Fish and other aggro weenie. When facing Angel Stompy which is also one of your worst initial matchups, I bring in 4x Dystopia. Fish is an easy win, even game 1. Zoo variants are typically a bit harder. Burn has always been of the worst matchups of Sui-black, it remains true. White weenie / Angel Stompy slides slightly to your favor with about a 60% percentage game 2 and 3.

Solidarity:
The initial build has a positive matchup of roughly 60%-70%. If you really don't like the interaction between Plague Spitter and Negator then you can side in Serum Powder I suppose.

Empty the Warrens Combo:
You guessed it... same boarding plan as Gobbos. If this is there only kill conodition then they deserve to die. I'd probably make sure to keep Duress in as well.

Graveyard Combo:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Serum Powder
4x Negator
4x Duress
Mulligan for that Leyline. It's not that hard to find. Duress to stall (obvious inclusion) and Negator for a clock. Combo and control fear sui black, rightly so. Not many decks pack the disruption and clock sui-back can.

Percentages for both EtW combo and Graveyard Combo really depend on the deck using it. All have been positive. The most problematic in my experience has been Belcher. In the few games I've played I'm still pulling roughly a 60% win percentage against it.

Solitaire:
My testing has been very little against Solitaire. I haven't lost a game, but admittedly I only played 3 games over this time. Bring in Dystopia, Duress, Plague Spitter is good against Argothian... Small Pox for extra disruption is fun.

Threshold:
Boarding against Threshold has been a real diffculty. I've got so many tools and which ones do I want to use. Leyline + Serum Powder is hot. On the other hand, the land destrcution of SmallPox + Sinkhole + Wasteland is awesome also. Dystopia is too good not to run. Duress is also good. I'm of the opinion I'll want atleast 12 creatures, 8 isn't enough when StP removes then from the game and Unearth can't bring them back. I want Negator in. How do I get the space for all of that? Well... I'm 4 slots short. Honestly (I know I'm gonna get lambasted for this) I cut Dark Ritual for those slots. The tempo swing created by Dark Ritual is most likely going to be mitigated by either free counters or a cantrip into swords to plowshares. I believe the right approach is to not play the beat down 'til you've established control. It should be possible with the amount of hate I bring in. Still Threshold is such a resilient deck. Don't expect to go much better than 60%-65% post board.

Affinity:
Heh... this is probably the worst matchup. I don't have hate boarded for Affinity and they have a tempo I just can't match. Luckily it seems as if Affinity is basically dead. If it ever sees a reviva the board can be modified appropriately. I mention it because this and Burn are the only two decks I don't have a board plan for that ends up with a positive win percentage.

-
Anyways. Toss me your thoughts, play with it. Recommend better boarding options, etc. The next major tourney I go to I hope to be packing this. It will be interesting to see how it does.

[technogeek5000]

Umm you do realize that the minimum amount for a deck is 60 cards and the only amount of cards a sideboard can have is 15, no more... no less.

And why unearth?

[blackguard90]

I've been tinkering with a sui/aggro black build for quite sometime now. It was originally inspired by a pox variant I saw that could transition via sideboard into sui-black. Mono-black can do this because no matter the build it retains a base of cards which are uniformly too good not to run (read: duress, hymn to tourach, dark ritual, sinkhole, etc.)

Black also has possibly the best selection of hate cards this format offers. Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague... sometimes black is splashed just for these kind of options.

The idea was to create a transitional deck based from a 45 card skeleton leaving 30 cards of sideboard hate - some generic, some specific.

In my testing this has been phenomenal, which is part of the reason I'm posting it. Quite literally it is my best deck (I don't play Tier 1). Alright, enough of me blabbing... to the deck, then discussion.

45 Card Skeleton:

Lands (18)
18x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Utility (12)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
Creatures (8)
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
Other (3)
3x Unearth

30 Card Sideboard:

Combo/Control
4x Duress
4x Phyrexian Negator
Aggro/Weenie/Fish
4x Engineered Plague
4x Plague Spitter
Threshold/Madness/Graveyard
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Dystopia
Generic
3x Small Pox
3x Serum Powder

Because of the structure of the deck, the cards have poorer synergy than normal. The tradeoff to this poor synergy is the ability to deck twice as much hate as is typical. Again, in my testing this tradeoff is fully worth it. An extreme example: say your playing against Goblins and you have both a Plague Spitter and Negator in hand. You're never going to drop your Negator because of his poor interaction with Plague Spitter. But having the Plague Spitter out against Goblins is completely worth the wasted card in hand. When/if Plague Spitter dies, then you can drop Negator... that type of thing.

First question: why the Unearths? Well, you're running alot of disruption and hate and not alot of creatures. Your creature base will be more typical of Deadguy than more creature intensive builds. Additionally, your creatures can absolutely wreck face in certain matchups. The countered first turn Hypnotic or Negator back on the second turn is a play that wins games. Unearth can target everyone of your creatures, is never truly dead because it can be cycled, brings back cards that the opponent hates dealing with, and virtually ups your creature count. That's why - it works.

Alright, so the initial build would include the aforementioned skeleton and:

4x Duress
4x Negator
4x Plague Spitter
3x Small Pox

I know, I know, Negator and Spitter have really poor synergy. I'm open for recommendations if there are any. This gives you the highest creature count you can get and you don't have to play the two in conjunction. I rarely do. Drop a Spitter, clear the board, then drop dual Negators or what not. The deck in its initial form plays like suicide black. Not perfectly tuned and a little more controlling than usual, but basically suicide black. This initial build has positive matchs-ups against control, most combo, and many aggro-control variants outside of Threshold. It goes near even with most Tier 2, and is good enough to beat most Rogue decks. Against Goblins and Threshold... expect game 1 to be 30%-40% in your favor. Goblins is the worse of the two.

Boarding Plan (this if the fun part!)

Goblins:
4x Engineered Plague
4x Plague Spitter
3x Serum Powder
4x (whatever the hell you want)
If you can't win with the set up God hates you. The matchup swings to roughly 70%-75% in your favor games 2 and 3.

Fish / Other Weenie:
The same boarding plan used for Goblins can be used for Fish and other aggro weenie. When facing Angel Stompy which is also one of your worst initial matchups, I bring in 4x Dystopia. Fish is an easy win, even game 1. Zoo variants are typically a bit harder. Burn has always been of the worst matchups of Sui-black, it remains true. White weenie / Angel Stompy slides slightly to your favor with about a 60% percentage game 2 and 3.

Solidarity:
The initial build has a positive matchup of roughly 60%-70%. If you really don't like the interaction between Plague Spitter and Negator then you can side in Serum Powder I suppose.

Empty the Warrens Combo:
You guessed it... same boarding plan as Gobbos. If this is there only kill conodition then they deserve to die. I'd probably make sure to keep Duress in as well.

Graveyard Combo:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Serum Powder
4x Negator
4x Duress
Mulligan for that Leyline. It's not that hard to find. Duress to stall (obvious inclusion) and Negator for a clock. Combo and control fear sui black, rightly so. Not many decks pack the disruption and clock sui-back can.

Percentages for both EtW combo and Graveyard Combo really depend on the deck using it. All have been positive. The most problematic in my experience has been Belcher. In the few games I've played I'm still pulling roughly a 60% win percentage against it.

Solitaire:
My testing has been very little against Solitaire. I haven't lost a game, but admittedly I only played 3 games over this time. Bring in Dystopia, Duress, Plague Spitter is good against Argothian... Small Pox for extra disruption is fun.

Threshold:
Boarding against Threshold has been a real diffculty. I've got so many tools and which ones do I want to use. Leyline + Serum Powder is hot. On the other hand, the land destrcution of SmallPox + Sinkhole + Wasteland is awesome also. Dystopia is too good not to run. Duress is also good. I'm of the opinion I'll want atleast 12 creatures, 8 isn't enough when StP removes then from the game and Unearth can't bring them back. I want Negator in. How do I get the space for all of that? Well... I'm 4 slots short. Honestly (I know I'm gonna get lambasted for this) I cut Dark Ritual for those slots. The tempo swing created by Dark Ritual is most likely going to be mitigated by either free counters or a cantrip into swords to plowshares. I believe the right approach is to not play the beat down 'til you've established control. It should be possible with the amount of hate I bring in. Still Threshold is such a resilient deck. Don't expect to go much better than 60%-65% post board.

Affinity:
Heh... this is probably the worst matchup. I don't have hate boarded for Affinity and they have a tempo I just can't match. Luckily it seems as if Affinity is basically dead. If it ever sees a reviva the board can be modified appropriately. I mention it because this and Burn are the only two decks I don't have a board plan for that ends up with a positive win percentage.

-
Anyways. Toss me your thoughts, play with it. Recommend better boarding options, etc. The next major tourney I go to I hope to be packing this. It will be interesting to see how it does.

1) 1 too many land, you don't need 22x lands in a deck that tops at 3.
2) Unearth is so damn conditional that its not worth it. Sometimes, they are dead and useless, and other times a unearthed hyppy or gator won't be able to block well anyways. Removal over unearth, preferably edict or vendetta or demise (awsome with fetch lands).
3) plaguespitter sucks, gator and shade both suffer, and it isn't "that" good against goblins, and definately not good against threshold. Play rotting giant if you play 7-8 fetches, anurid if you like 3/3s for 2, or dark confidant for gas.
4) Smallpox: sucks, tested it.

[Galroth]

Umm you do realize that the minimum amount for a deck is 60 cards and the only amount of cards a sideboard can have is 15, no more... no less.


... Well that was a comment I wasn't expecting. 75 cards total... when constructing the idea, TREATING these 75 as 45 of a skeleton and 30 of a sideboard... included was an 'initial build' list (i.e. for game 1) I'll let you deduce the remainder and figure out why this works...

Dinner time - I'll edit soon.

EDIT:


1) 1 too many land, you don't need 22x lands in a deck that tops at 3.

I know the standard for double black on turn two is 17 black sources rather than 18. Quite honestly I'm not comfortable with that. Take a look a Pikula's list for the GP. 23 lands. Admittedly he is running dual colors and fetchlands. But he also has Confidants to draw into more land which don't cost 1B. My curve does top at 3, but it's really heavy on the top and I need a third land drop by my third turn near always. You could be right in that I could cut a swamp. I'll consider it.


2) Unearth is so damn conditional that its not worth it. Sometimes, they are dead and useless, and other times a unearthed hyppy or gator won't be able to block well anyways. Removal over unearth, preferably edict or vendetta or demise (awsome with fetch lands).


Unearth as a few people have pointed out to my is never truly dead due to cycling. But that certainly doesn't mean Unearth merits a spot. I've considered Dark Confidant in place of Unearth. Unearth wasn't included so I could get an extra block in. Unearth was put in to keep in play the problem creature they hate seeing. Against combo that's usually Hyppie; against control, Negator; against aggro, Spitter; etc. Dark Confidant might serve near the same purpose by drawing into more hate rather than recurring it. Confidant was the 1 card I was a little unhappy I wasn't able to fit in the sideboard as he's great against both combo and control also. I even considered replacing Negator with Confidant. Both would be best for many matchups. Replaycing Unearth with Confidant and probably dropping 1 land to up Confidant to a count of 4 is what I'll be testing next. With Confidant I can probably afford the land drop as mentioned earlier, and this does up my creature count which I'm pleased with. The real problem with Unearth was that StP was a little to common to make it really good.

I'm not sure removal in place of Unearth would be the right way to go. Most of the time this deck just doesn't need the removal. Spot removal is virtually worthless against Combo so I wouldn't want to include it in the 'skeleton'. Against Control, the removal is probably not needed. Against Aggro, I'd rather have a sweeper or gas than spot removal.


3) plaguespitter sucks, gator and shade both suffer, and it isn't "that" good against goblins, and definately not good against threshold. Play rotting giant if you play 7-8 fetches, anurid if you like 3/3s for 2, or dark confidant for gas.

Spitter is awesome. But he's conditional. Gator and shade do both suffer. But only in the initial build did I include Gator and Spitter together. I'm open to suggestions so that I never see the two paired. Shade... well either he's out early game and he's enough so that you don't bring spitter out, or don't bring him out early game and Shade can come out late game when his poor synergy with Spitter doesn't matter because he'll be a 5/4 or greater every turn.

You're right that Spitter is not good against Threshold. Maybe I didn't make it clear, but he's one of the cards that isn't 'in' against Threshold. And against Goblins, Fish, and most other Weenie, Spitter IS 'that' good; especially when paired with Engineered Plague and Unearth to recur him. I could write a couple of paragraphs writing about what Spitter can do in a format where 2/3rds of the the creatures are 2/2 or less. But it would probably be pointless as I'm sure you can think of where Spitter is good without my belittling your intelligence by spelling out all those situations.

Again, the idea was to have a deck that could transition into a deck which would hate on whatever MU you face, while attempting to maintain a decent first game. Spitter is some of the best (and underused) hate out there against Aggro which is sui-blacks worst MU. In contrast Giants provide no hate of any sort and while good for their cost are really mediocre. Even for more traditional sui-black they're one of the most debateable slots.


4) Smallpox: sucks, tested it.

Small pox is so flexible I can't see how you think it sucks. Yeah, there are times when you don't want to see Smallpox. There are also times you don't want to see Negator, yet Negator is awesome. In my experience the few times this occurs aren't worth cutting it. I bring Small pox in against most control and combo MU's. Small pox is great against fragile mana bases offering me 11 land destruction effects; almost as many as Deadguy. It takes down their large beater if yours just can't deal with it (pretty rare case, but it occurs). And it provides an extra discard effect. The majority of the time this isn't a hindrance to you because alot of the cards are conditional and possibly aren't needed at the moment (you can always Unearth the Negator after you've taken control of the board and need a clock).

I have no doubt that you tested it, but this deck plays a bit differently than most sui-black. It is great against almost everything except aggro.

-
Lastly, I realied I didn't offer the Red Death or Deadguy MU.
It's roughly 45%/55% their favor. I don't have much hate which effects them and their deck is a little more streamlined. Honestly, most of the time it's a coin-flip. Who has Dark Ritual hyppie, or ritual Negator. Who is on the play and sinkholes the other first, that type of thing. But when it's a close to even game, Red Death especially can pull ahead. The higher threat density tends to make the difference. I suspect that including Dark Confidant would help these MU's slightly.

So, what do you think of replacing Unearth with Confidant. I'd prefer a full set of Confidants if this is the case. Should I cut a swamp, or possibly a Shade considering my two drop is typically disruption and Shade tends not to matter 'til turn 4-5+

[technogeek5000]

I cut shades a while back and it has proven entirely beneficial. A majority of the time it would be sub optimal compared to confidant, zombies, or hippie because i could cast those and play disruption. The times where shade was good it would not have been any better then a negator (which is whati replaced them for) because negator smashes face and doesnt eat my mana so i can attack and play more creatures/ disruption.

Also, after testing snuff out some more i have concluded that it is not any better then ghastly demise...

Ghastly demise pros:
- kills smaller creatures more effectively
- doesnt suck to topdeck it to confidant

Ghastly demise cons:
- occasionally dead due to laack of abilty to put things in the yard

Snuff out pros:
- allows for tempo boost

Snuff out cons:
- bad at killing smaller creatures
- topdecking this to confidant is a bitch

[xsockmonkeyx]

Snuff out cons:
- bad at killing black creatures
- topdecking this to confidant is a bitch

Fixed.

[Tacosnape]

Ghastly Demise doesn't kill black creatures either.

Snuff Out is better than Ghastly Demise. I don't buy the argument that Ghastly Demise is better against small creatures for one second. I completely disagree with it. In Suicide Black, I want all my mana available for making my opponent discard cards, dropping threats, or pumping my threats up, as fast as humanly possible.

I would rather pay 4 life than :b: to pick off a Goblin Lackey. This will allow you to be dropping Carnophage or Sarcomancy (Or anything in your deck if you went first) rather than basically passing your entire turn just to take the Lackey down.

[technogeek5000]

Wow i just saw a pretty interesting card suggested by someone on the wizards board: Perish

Perish 2B

sorcery
Destroy all green creatures

This card owns the fuck out of threshold. The only miniature problem i see with this is that to maximize it you might have to wait until opponent plays a good amount of creatures. This coupled with discard to clear their hand of counters would make threshold alot easier to win.

[Hummingbird TG]

Perish won't be that rediculous. normally Thresh can pull out a win with just 1 Tarmogoyf or mongoose, making Perish a 1 for 1 trade.

[nitewolf9]

Just play dystopia. That card IS rediculous against thresh and not narrow at all.

[Anarky87]

Just play dystopia. That card IS rediculous against thresh and not narrow at all.

QFT. Dystopia reads:

1BB
Enchantment

Thresh never gets another creature while you smash face with your cheap beaters.

That card is the nut high against them. I'd definitely check it out.

[nitewolf9]

The best part about dystopia is watching your thresh opponent read it when they don't know what it does. Then you see them start to resemble the guy in the picture.

[Barook]

Dystopia can also get rid of white creatures and enchantments, which can be quite handy from time to time.


Skirge is garbage unless you maindeck Therapy.
There are a few more cards that play along well with Skirge:

Sarcomancy and AEther Vial

I could imagine that Vial could be fun because it can double as creature removal when you suddenly drop Rotting Giants into their 2/2 critters.

[Tacosnape]

Aether Vial does not in any way shape or form belong in Suicide Black. When Suicide Black loses it usually loses from running out of gas/threats, or on occasion because it can't answer something that hit the board. Aether Vial is only going to make the first problem worse while doing nothing to solve the second problem.

Matter of fact, Aether Vial's a pretty shitty card outside of Vial Goblins. I've never seen another deck using it that wouldn't be better if it wasn't using it.

[KillemallCFH]

Okay, I'm trying to get my friend into Legacy, and he has a casual deck somewhat resembling Sui Black, so I'm going to try to get him into Legacy by making him a Sui Black list and bringing him with my brother and me to the next tournament we go to. This is a quick list I came up with (keep in mind I'm also trying to make this as budget as possible, so don't suggest adding another color):
// Mana
17 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual
// Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
4 Black Knight
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
2 Phyrexian Negator
// Disruption
3 Encroach
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Phyrexian Negator
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 3 Planar Void
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Dystopia

Some notable choices:
Black Knight - I like him a lot as StP-proof as well as awsome against Gobs.
Snuff Out - I saw it mentioned on here and from testing so far, I love it. The only bad side that I can see is that it is dead vs. the mirror, but I don't think that should be too much of a concern.
Encroach - I saw it mentioned in another thread, and I felt I needed some more turn 1 plays, so I tried this. I haven't got to test it out too much, but it seems okay. I'm sure there is something better though. Before these, I had Stromgald Crusader. I considered Rotting Giant in this spot, but without fetchlands, he is much too hard to maintain. (Plus, I want 1-drops.)

Any budget suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[technogeek5000]

Glad to see people picking up the deck. The list is decent except for a few things.

- Im taking a shot and saying that your playing encroach over sinkhole for budget reasons. If not then definately swap out them for sinkholes.
-hypnotic specter is a crucial card for the deck. The amount of cards this guy takes out over the course of a game is astounding, if this guy swings against combo then its pretty much game over because you will keep their hand extremely low while playing other pieces of control.
- I would probably bump of the confidant and negator 1 each. Dark confidant is the only form of draw this deck has and it is beneficial to run a playset. I wouldnt advocate running 4 negators but 2 of him is inconsistent.
- What do you side in cabal therapy against. if its combo then null rod would seem a better option. If you do put null rod in its place i would only run three because it is dead in multiples and the Eplauge count should be upped by 1.
- Black knight is not need for the goblins matchup. you run 8 1 cc answers to lackey and they all trade with every single one of there creatures. Plus they buy enough time to cast E plauge and if that hits then their creature base is dead.

Where do you play, a mirror match would be pretty amusing to watch/ play.

Edit: Your location says MA... are you going to the 4x Sea Drake thing in Hadley.
__________________________________________________________________
Also it seems that pyroclasm is this decks achilles heel. If goblins boards this card then it can be just as devastating as a E plauge is for them. Goblins has enchantment hate... but does sui black have any answers to Pyroclasm?

[Cidolfus]

I'm seeing practically nonexistent maindecking of Cabal Therapy. If I'm running 20 cheap creatures wouldn't Cabal Therapy be a good maindeck inclusion alongside Hymn and Duress to match the growing paranoia for a combo heavy metagame?

I know this must have been debated and decided long ago with good reason, but why has Cabal Therapy been ostracized to sulk in the sideboard? It just seems so... good.

[Tacosnape]

I'm seeing practically nonexistent maindecking of Cabal Therapy. If I'm running 20 cheap creatures wouldn't Cabal Therapy be a good maindeck inclusion alongside Hymn and Duress to match the growing paranoia for a combo heavy metagame?

I know this must have been debated and decided long ago with good reason, but why has Cabal Therapy been ostracized to sulk in the sideboard? It just seems so... good.

The biggest problem with Cabal Therapy is that it and Sarcomancy don't get along in the slightest.

Also, every card that says "Name a card." on it where to maximize it's use you have to name something in your opponent's deck is by nature much stronger in games 2 and 3 where you have a solid idea of what your opponent is playing. This includes Cabal Therapy, Meddling Mage, and Pithing Needle, and this is a large reason why they're three of the most popular sideboard cards in decks that can run them.

Still, I'd maindeck it if I wasn't still running Unmask (I still love this card even post-Flash.) But I think Therapy versus other cards maindeck completely depends on your skill level with the "Name a card" squad.

Therapy is one of those cards where how well you use it is what separates an average legacy player from a genuine pro. To maximize its efficiency, you have to constantly pay attention to the game and be fully aware of what your opponent's deck is, how he's playing it, and ask yourself "Why hasn't he played the cards in his hand?" From this, a very good player can deduce with a high accuracy rate what's in a player's hand and thereby hit with a blind Cabal Therapy very often.

I speak from personal experience as savage Cabal Therapies, Meddling Mages, and Pithing Needles have won me more matches in tournaments than I can count. I'm by no means on the skill level of a pro and I still make a lot of stupid amateurish mistakes (I can't tell you how many times after years and years of Survival playing I still forget to get Squee back if I'm tired,) but I spent a lot of time practicing focusing on every play an opponent makes and being able to deduce what to name with great consistency. This skill changes Cabal Therapy from being very good to being outright insanity.

[Cidolfus]

Thanks for the explanation, Tacosnape. I play casual legacy, and have little experience with sideboards--I only build sideboards when I'm going to play in a tournament (of which are never legacy, even if it's my favorite format). Since I don't have a sideboard you've convinced me to run Therapy maindeck, if only to improve my own ability to use the card well.

[Tacosnape]

Thanks for the explanation, Tacosnape. I play casual legacy, and have little experience with sideboards--I only build sideboards when I'm going to play in a tournament (of which are never legacy, even if it's my favorite format). Since I don't have a sideboard you've convinced me to run Therapy maindeck, if only to improve my own ability to use the card well.

I'm still waffling on maindecking it myself, personally. My only hesitation to do so stems from the fact that even with 19-20 creatures, against some decks I run out of threats. It's not like the insanity of Therapy in Survival where you've got Birds and a bajillion undersized creatures that have already served their purpose once they're in play. Still, though, it is Cabal Therapy.

[Cidolfus]

I plan on simply taking Bill Stark's build and replacing the Unmasks with Cabal Therapies. Bill Stark's build just seems really solid.

So even if the deck doesn't have carddraw and loses card advantage with therapy, it still has 12 pumpable outlets when there's no threats left to play.

[Holo_rip]

i've been tweaking a list for a suicide black deck.
i have to admit that it is not really a "suicide" deck, but well, i haven't found other thread to post this list in :

16 swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Duress
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn To Tourach
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa Jitte
2 Cursed Scroll

2 Phyrexian Negator
3 Order of the Ebon Hand
3 Knight of Stromgald
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant

SB :
4 Engineered Plague
3 Planar Void
3 Dystopia
4 Extirpate
2 Phyrexian Negator

What you guys though about such a list ?
too many pump guys ?
not enought creature removal or disruption ?

So far, my only test was against a friend of mine playing UGr Threshold (he was trying some new tricks and stuff), with no MD pyroclasm, goyf, predict, MD sensei divination top and counterbalance and the basic stuff off UGr thresh (lightning bolt, fledging dragon, FoW...) and it have been good. On thing like 10 matchup, i've won six (12-8 for me). but well, i think that we can't consider this playtest as a real proof.

Holo.

[technogeek5000]

Zombies are incredibly important in sui black. Not just because they are cheap, efficient beaters but because they vastly improve the goblins matchup (nearly unwinnable short of insane dark ritual shenanigans). Your list has no answers to turn 1 lackey (again short of dark ritual) and in tournament play this will cost games and matches.

SoFi is to expensive for sui black. In decks like faerie stompy its fine but in sui black 5 mana to give a creature +2/+2 is not better then playing threats and disruption.

I personally dont like pump guys... especially when you have to pay 2 mana to give 1 power. there good late game but are mediocre early/middle game.

Just my two cents.

[Holo_rip]

at the moment i plan to drop two pump knight and both SOFI to fill the deck with sarcomancy. It is too synergetic with Negator to be avoid. Maybe i'll drop another thing to fill in two other negator, but first i need to test a bit.
About pump knight, they save me soo many time, i can't cut them. i've been killing much creature with two of them on the table, double block with first strike is great. Moreover, with shade and cursed, it make our late game dark ritual gold.

Holo.

[Barook]

I plan on simply taking Bill Stark's build and replacing the Unmasks with Cabal Therapies. Bill Stark's build just seems really solid.

I plan that, too, with the exception of keeping Unmask for a while. My changes to the deck so far were:

-4 Wasteland (the deck is too black-intensive)
-1 Umezawa's Jitte (sure, it wins games, but dead cards are never sexy)
+5 Swamp

I added the additional Swamp because i found myself way too often short of mana during goldfishing. What I love about the deck is its ability to turn unused resources (mana) into something useful (damage). Due to that, the additional mana shouldn't hurt.

[Cidolfus]

I agree with replacing the Wastelands with Swamps. However, I still want to run 4 Jittes. They're just too freakin' good. Not to mention that so many decks run them that the additional Jittes could be used as opposing Jitte removal.

[technogeek5000]

I agree with replacing the Wastelands with Swamps. However, I still want to run 4 Jittes. They're just too freakin' good. Not to mention that so many decks run them that the additional Jittes could be used as opposing Jitte removal.

Don't forget that the opponent could use their jitte to remove one of your forks that is already in play.

I was looking over my sideboard and i was thinking about making a slight change for the upcoming sea drake tournament.

-1 dystopia
+1 planar void

Graveyard reliant decks are becoming more popular now and the deck already has a great matchup against the most popular UGW version of threshold. Also I was wondering if people feel it is worth it to sideboard in planar voids against threshold. If so, what cards are weaker against threshold that could be sideboarded out for the plauges. Hymns are normally the first thing I sideboard out against thresh because they greatly strengthen tarmogoyf and mongoose.

[technogeek5000]

Sorry for the double post but i wanted to bring up 2 topics that dont fit into my last post.

First off is the land count. Pretty much 20 is the accepted number for lands in sui black. I often find myself mulliganing more often then with other decks and if you dont get 2 black sources then you are in trouble. If we count wastelands as 1/2 a mana source then we run 18-19 lands. Is that realy enough for this deck, especially if you run pump knights and shades. Some will argue that dark ritual increases the mana count but dark ritual is a one time card. If you rit for a hippie or negator turn 1 and are stuck on 1 land for several turns, you tempo boost would be severely hampered. This is why I ask if 17-18 swamps is enough. I know if I was to increase my land count I would get rid of 1 of my 8 zombies because they are the least important card in my deck (not to say that they arent good, sheer quantity of these have won games by them selves).

Does the new dreadnaught errata pose any problems for this deck? Sui black's removal suite is not hampered by the size of its target so I would think that as long as we have atleast 1 piece of removal we should be set against decks that utilize dreadnaught, because most decks that will use dreadnaught use it as their primary win condition and run few if any other creatures. If we do not happen to have a piece of removal then I believe that this deck is in real trouble because our only way of drawing into removal is confidant and the card advantage it provides is relatively slow compared with the speed of phyrexian dreadnaught.

[Galroth]

When reading through the adept question and answer forum, I noticed many state that chrome mox was under-rated and could probably see play in a great many decks it hasn't. I've been testing it out in my sui-black build and I'm quite satisfied.

Chrome mox fits well into mono-colored builds, and suicide black in particular is usualy willing to sacrifice a bit of card-advantage for a boost in tempo. Between 4x Dark Ritual and 3x Chrome Mox I've been really satisfied with that boost in tempo. There are alot of turn 1 plays with Chrome Mox that are splendid. Turn 1 Sinkhole or Hymn to Tourach are powerful. I also appreciate a Turn 1 Dark Confidant (yes I run confidant).

Anyways, I highly recommend it as I can almost rely on a tempo boost with its inclusion. Chrome Mox has easily been pulling its weight.

[Sims]

If the removal seems subpar, the addition or substitution of Smother into the suite might alleviate some of the problems. 2 mana to eradicate almost any Goblin (save obviously Ringleader and SGC), Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf, Werebear, Quirion Dryad, almost any Zoo or Fish threat... I'm not sure how well this deck is going compete in a non-flash metagame as I haven't even played the deck since Flash was banned, but Smother or Snuff out seem easily capable of removing most of the problematic threats in the format, in this deck or in any control decks removal suited.

[technogeek5000]

When reading through the adept question and answer forum, I noticed many state that chrome mox was under-rated and could probably see play in a great many decks it hasn't. I've been testing it out in my sui-black build and I'm quite satisfied.

Chrome mox fits well into mono-colored builds, and suicide black in particular is usualy willing to sacrifice a bit of card-advantage for a boost in tempo. Between 4x Dark Ritual and 3x Chrome Mox I've been really satisfied with that boost in tempo. There are alot of turn 1 plays with Chrome Mox that splendid. Turn 1 Sinkhole or Hymn to Tourach are powerful. I also appreciate a Turn 1 Dark Confidant (yes I run confidant).

I ran these on my MWS file for a little while and was underwhelmed. I believe that dark ritual is about as much card disadvantage that this deck can safely use. If you run confidant, which you do, then I can see that it might balance out.


If the removal seems subpar, the addition or substitution of Smother into the suite might alleviate some of the problems. 2 mana to eradicate almost any Goblin (save obviously Ringleader and SGC), Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf, Werebear, Quirion Dryad, almost any Zoo or Fish threat... I'm not sure how well this deck is going compete in a non-flash metagame as I haven't even played the deck since Flash was banned, but Smother or Snuff out seem easily capable of removing most of the problematic threats in the format, in this deck or in any control decks removal suited.

Who sais the removal suite is subpar... you have a few great options for creature removal that best suits your deck. Snuff out is probably the best here because of the tempo swing it provides but I only run three because its bad with confidants. Diabolic edict is another great card because it can hit protection creatures, and untargetable creatures which is great against threshold. Smother is a decent option but the real reason I think people dont run it is because it is 2cc. Sui black runs so many important 2 cast spells that smother will slow you down. Id much rather pay 4 life while playing cards like sinkhole and hymn to tourach then just play play smother. It might not be a bad idea to remove edicts for it though.

Also whats this, Sui black has been topping 4 and 8 alot recently, even if its normally in smaller tournaments (it does well at the lucky frog and in Mass). Sui black has great matchups against goblins, threshold, and most forms of combo. It also goes 50-50 or better against most aggro control decks, and with my new list i have yet to lose to burn (im about 5-0). The only decks ive ever had trouble with are landstill and stax decks but those matchups are still winnable. I think the reason that Sui black hasnt top 4 or better at some of the 50+ people tournaments is that it is relatively unplayed and some of the pilots are inexperienced.

Edit: I tested a 21 land mana base by taking out a carnophage for a swamp. 8 out of nine games I got 8+ lands and one game I hit 13. I think it was just bad luck or I didnt shuffle good, but carnophage would have won me one or two of the games in these cases. The card im looking at now is Ummewaza's jitte. My main argument for not running it was that it costs to much mana to get active, but looking back I see that my list focuses to much on the early and mid game trying to cripple the opponent and in turn gives up its late game. Jitte is pretty devastating against aggro so i will begin testing it out.

[Tacosnape]

Is it time to bring Withered Wretch back?

No, seriously. I got thinking about this when A. analyzing what I liked about Bill Stark's list (Having insane numbers of things to do with extra mana), and B. deciding the best way to deal with Tarmogoyf without maindecking removal spells other than Jitte.

Wretch does this. Wretch lets you invest mana to keep certain types of permanents out of graveyards to at least keep Tarmogoyf manageable.

Wretch is also nice against control, as with multiple mana on the board (Or a Ritual) you can eat Loams, Chainer's Edicts, or anything graveyard based before they have a chance to kill your Wretch off. Oh, and it has weird synergy with Sarcomancy if you run it.

[C.P.]

Is it time to bring Withered Wretch back?


What do you cut, though, assuming you are stick to 20 creatures? Wretch is a fine metagame choice(I played him a lot before) but has a drawback of doing nothing but dying in the combat. Do you take one of the knights? I'd probably take out jumping ones if you do, since I do not want to have 16 zombies in my deck. 12 is bad enough, when your opponent wins the game by dropping double plague naming zombie and shade.

[Galroth]

At the moment there seem to be two primary variants of suicide black that are running around; each sharing a small degree of success. The latest variant is Bill Stark's list which incorporates the 2/2 1cc zombies, pumpable critters, maindeck jitte and a fairly standard disruption package. The other sui-black variant was the list Anwar had been running 'til he eventually splashed red and created Red Death. Anwar's list runs a larger set of creatures including negator and specter, and (at one point) creature removal.

For reference: original decklists, theory, and card choice
Bill Stark's - http://londes.com/?id=1349
Anwar's - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451
(Anwar has mentioned many of his choices were from this suicide black primer - http://www.themanadrain.com/primers/legendblack.htm

A question to everyone: Which list is better?
What are the pros and cons of each list?
Is one more suited for the modern meta than the other?
Have signficant developments been made to either list that players should be aware of?

--
@ Tacosnape - In short no. Withered Wretch may warrant a spot in the sideboard, but I run Leyline of the Void in my sb already. If anything, I think it could alter what creature removal people choose to use if they are running creature removal. Instead of Diabolic Edict I expect to see a little more Smother, Terror, or even Spinning Darkness. Withered Wretch is just too slow in tempo to warrant including him over other creatures maindeck when his ability is not pertinent in enough of your match-ups.

[Tacosnape]

What do you cut, though, assuming you are stick to 20 creatures? Wretch is a fine metagame choice(I played him a lot before) but has a drawback of doing nothing but dying in the combat. Do you take one of the knights? I'd probably take out jumping ones if you do, since I do not want to have 16 zombies in my deck. 12 is bad enough, when your opponent wins the game by dropping double plague naming zombie and shade.

At the moment, my cut is Sarcomancy. The reason for this is fairly complicated.

One, I switched to Cabal Therapy instead of Unmask. Cabal Therapy doesn't go incredibly well with Sarcomancy's drawback. So I switched out Sarcomancy for Withered Wretch. This meant I didn't go down in threat size, but this left me with the situation of having a slightly higher mana curve. So, since I no longer had the "Pitch a black card to Unmask" thing going on, I snuck in a pair of Chrome Moxes to help alleviate the curve problem. Also, since I always felt 20 Swamps was far too much in this deck, I cut down to 16 Swamps and 2 Moxes instead of 20 Swamps, so I stuck the other two slots as creatures, and I'm messing around to figure out what I like best in the slot. This gives me 22 creatures to use with Therapy.

So in summary, I cut 4 Sarcomancy, 4 Unmask, and 4 Swamp for 4 Wretch, 4 Therapy, 2 Chrome Mox, and 2 undetermined creatures.

Running Leyline nowadays is bad, by the way. Anything you board it in against you'd be better off with either Planar Void or Withered Wretch.

And as for creature removal in Sui Black? Snuff Out >> Terror >> Smother >> Diabolic Edict >> Spinning Darkness.

[Galroth]

The 2 moxes seem a good improvement to me. I just recently added 3 to my own list. I'm unfamiliar with what your current list looks like so I can't make much of a judgment call on repalcing Sarcomancy with Withered Wretch (not that you need my approval... you know you want it though ;) Your changes sound well justified, it could still be so dependent on what else you're running.

Do you have Umezawa's Jitte maindecked? A first turn Zombie, followed be second turn Jitte, equip was one of those game winning combinations that made the inclusion of Sarcomancy and Carnophage worth it. The cut of Sarcomancy would really reduce possibilities like this... if you're running Jitte.

You cut 2 mana sources: -4 swamp, + 2 mox... are you running wasteland; or just 18 sources in total (plus ritual bring it to 22)? At the same time you increased your mana-curve with the inclusion of wretch and therapy. That gives me misgivings. I think 18 sources is more than enough if you're running a list on the lower end of the mana curve for sui-black builds. Mine personally is on the higher end and I'm running 18 sources plus 4 wasteland and 4 ritual which might even be on the heavy side, but it ensures my first 3 land drops and I usually have acceleration to boot. I'd just double check your mana-base after a bit of testing. The changes seem contradictory at first.

The 2 undetermined creatures almost definitely need to be good beaters (unless you want to try for Confidant... which is a different bag altogether). You cut some of your early game tempo for wretch, which means you'll need to make it up. Shade and Negator if you're not already running them. If you are running Jitte, I'd probably leave a couple of Sarcomancy's in. It's really hard to make guesses at this without a list :P

Finally, Leyline can be bad nowadays, but isn't definitively. I find it does quite well against Mana-less Ichorid and a few other quick combo decks. Wretch isn't going to help 'til he both hits play and you have mana to devote to removing a graveyard. Planar Void also has to hit play before it becomes effective. By this time a few graveyard based combo decks will already have killed you.

I wouldn't personally add withered wretch because I believe most of the match-ups where his ability would become useful are already in my favor. In particular, those decks trying to abuse Tarmogoyf (though I'm certain there are exceptions).

[Tacosnape]

My current maindeck list:

16 Swamp
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

4 Carnophage
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Withered Wretch
2 (Creature I'm not sure of yet.)

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte

[Sanguine Voyeur]

2 (Creature I'm not sure of yet.)Dark Confidant?

[technogeek5000]

I was thinking the same thing. I would probably cut something to bump him to 4 as well. Also whats with no wasteland. I know you seemed to have dropped the mana denial route but god why did you take these out. They are so back breaking so much of the time. Often it will hamper the opponent just by sitting there forcing them to fetch basics, and it is free landkill so you can cast a creature or another piece of control along side it.

I personally dont like the Bill stark sui builds. Negator and hippie are so incredible i cant see why people dont run them even in stark sui. Honestly, has stark sui actually ever topped 8 outside of a flash metagame.

[Tacosnape]

Honestly, has stark sui actually ever topped 8 outside of a flash metagame.

It still made Top 8 at a Grand Prix. Has any regular on The Source done this with anything?

[technogeek5000]

Thats completely irrelevant. 15% of the field was a combo deck that the deck completely wrecked. Also it had great matchups against the rest of the field that was tailored to beat flash. The current metagame has reverted back to its original state and now why is stark sui being glorified by so many people. The deck was designed to mess with combo and the decks that beat it which was the entire field. The metagame has reverted back to the large presence and domintation of goblins and stark sui was not made to deal with a real metagame.

[Tacosnape]

The metagame has reverted back to the large presence and domintation of goblins

There is absolutely no evidence of this. There is in fact no evidence that Goblins will ever be a dominant force in Legacy again. It might, but I doubt it highly. Goblins doesn't beat combo, no longer beats most control, and most aggro or aggro-control decks pack significant hate for it still. Also, if in fact there were such evidence, then it would constitute an even greater argument against running Phyrexian Negator.


and stark sui was not made to deal with a real metagame.

What you mean is that "It was not designed with the specific intent of dealing with a Flashless metagame." Which would be correct. This by no means, however, indicates that it cannot do so with some alterations.

[C.P.]

I have to agree with Technogeek5000 here. I had exact same list an year ago, and it was underwhelming. The deck is really well designed to do what it does, being kicking Flash and Fish's ass. But not too much in dealing with goblins and slower midrange control.

The difference between 20 creature build and 16 creature build, is basically threat quality vs. threat quantity. Anwar's build features slower, but durable threats. most of them are reasonable game winners by themselves. However, stark's build concentrates on threat quantity. Considering how GP had bazillion pinpoint answers but nut much of sweepers, made 20 creature Sui batter. But now, goblins are back and everyone runs cheap sweepers. I can still see it working, but running negator might be a decent consideration.

Here is my old build (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4796&highlight=classic+suicide+black), with negator. It is bit outdated, but should hurt to look at it.

[technogeek5000]

What you mean is that "It was not designed with the specific intent of dealing with a Flashless metagame." Which would be correct. This by no means, however, indicates that it cannot do so with some alterations.

That still does not answer the fact that stark sui has not topped 8 outside of a flash metagame. Most people in this thread have simply stated that they will be netdecking starks list (including yourself i believe) so alterations have not been made. Outside of a flash metagame stark sui has not made top 8 while classic sui has.


There is absolutely no evidence of this. There is in fact no evidence that Goblins will ever be a dominant force in Legacy again. It might, but I doubt it highly. Goblins doesn't beat combo, no longer beats most control, and most aggro or aggro-control decks pack significant hate for it still. Also, if in fact there were such evidence, then it would constitute an even greater argument against running Phyrexian Negator.

Ok i admit that domination was the wrong word to use but goblins is still one of the most played decks so my point still remains valid.

[Tacosnape]

That still does not answer the fact that stark sui has not topped 8 outside of a flash metagame. Most people in this thread have simply stated that they will be netdecking starks list (including yourself i believe) so alterations have not been made. Outside of a flash metagame stark sui has not made top 8 while classic sui has.

Stark Sui also didn't really exist until the Flash metagame. There haven't been all that many major tournaments since.

[Galroth]

While my inclination leans more towards Anwar's build that Starks, I think that if you're going to run Starks build, then you can't half-ass it. His relies on the quick tempo and consistent beats of early black creatures, with the late game coming through in the ability to pump some of those creatures. Given your list Tacosnape, I think the remaining 2 creature slots should really be 2 sarcomancy. Actually I would rather see 3 sarcomancy 3 withered wretch.

Cutting wasteland is the right choice as if your list isn't running sinkhole. It's in conjunction that these cards are effective (especially with the inclusion of smallpox). You can't go halfway in sui-black.

EDIT: As an after-thought, if you are really opposed to running Sarcomancy, then consider a shadow creature. Starks list does have trouble with Tarmogoyf 'til it's able to expend the mana necesarry to pump a creature to size large enough to deal with Tarmogoyf, or to just bypass Tarmogoyf with flying or some other evasion while attempting to fend of Tarmogoyf on the ground.

Probably not the best option in a cursory evaluation, but worth brief consideration.

Dauthi Mindripper is an interestiong option. Probably a win more card, but certainly a killing blow. 2x might not be horrible as he does have evasion, and sacking him at the right time practially ensures you the game. Probably 1 mana too much to be good though.

[technogeek5000]

Stark Sui also didn't really exist until the Flash metagame. There haven't been all that many major tournaments since.

True... lets see. Kaddi's and 2 events in ontario are this weekend and the Northern legacy draft is a week after that. That should seem like enough opportunity for the deck to perform. If anyone is going to pilot Sui black at any of these tournaments it would be beneficial to see what version of Sui is best so please say so.

@Galroth: I would rather see 4 sarcomancy and 2 withered wretch because withered wretch is a vanilla 2/2 in several MU's. If you are going to run Shadow creatures I think that Dauthi slayer is better then midripper because it ability is mostly irrelevant by the time you cast it aside from dark ritual.

After some testing i have found that I like jitte. So here is the changes I have made from my list.
-1 Diabolic edict
-1 zombie
+2 jitte

[Galroth]

@ Technogeek - A quick clarification. I could not agree with you more regarding 4 sacromancy and 2 withered wretch. As I said before, I wouldn't even run withered wretch, however as Tacosnape has chosen to try wretch out, I was attempting to offer advice with regard to that choice. He listed that he wanted to run 4, and I thought advising 3 instead of 4 would be better than a full play-set. But again... I think Sarcomancy in pretty fundamental in a build like Stark's.

As for Dauthi Slayer over Mindripper... even though I brought the idea up, I'm pretty sure neither is worth it. Still something to consider nonetheless. I believe Mindripper would be the better choice as a 2-of. This is because Slayer is only a beater with shadow for 2 mana. In my opinon, if one chooses to run a beater for 2 mana there are better options out there. I tossed out Mindripper because he offers options beyond this (though probably not worth the high cc again).

If you list is similar to Starks, i.e. you're running the 1cc 2/2 zombies, I think Jitte is a must. Glad to see you're going that route. In addition, I think some of the beauty of Stark's list is that he will have mana open late game due to the low cc of his threats. His choice of pump creatures which come out early but can grow is a very effective way to give sui-black a late game to compliment it's strong early game. All props to Stark for a kick ass list.

[Sigar]

Okay, so I'm going to the monthly Legacy tournament tomorrow, and I'm bringing this pile of cards:

4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Rotting Giant
4 Carnophage
4 Nantuko shade

4 Sarcomancy

4 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn

4 Wasteland
8 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Withered Wretch
3 Massacre

Explanations:

Rotting Giant over Dark Confidant: Dark Confidant doesn't provide tempo, but card advantage, and I wanna be hella fast with this pile in my hands. I also run 4 Snuff Out which brings terrible synergy with Bob.

8 fetches: Food for the Giant, and also thins out the deck, so I don't topdeck swamps.

Massacre: I wanted to bring Dystopia, but I don't have any. My biggest fear is Angel Stompy with the moms and all that, so Massacre seems natural.

Snuff Out: Great tempo card. Solid answer to turn 1 lackey, Loam's Terravore and other random threads.

I think everything else is self-explanatory. If you have any feedback, I would love to hear it.

[technogeek5000]

umm the list is good but if i was going to bring the deck i would make a few changes.

First off if your playing rotting giant then phyrexian negator might be a good option for you. It helps fill up your graveyard and is great with sarcomancy.

Why no duress, Cabal therapy without duress is going to miss alot... Duress is so backbreaking against combo and control i dont see why anyone wouldnt run it.

The last thing I would do is as fast as humanly possible rip out those massacres from your list before your deck bursts into flames. Yes its a free spell, but it completely wipes your board clean aside from giant and the occasional twice pumped shade (not the best way to spend two mana). I would realy invest the cash into dystopias is because (probably the best reason over massacre) is that it doesnt touch your board. Dystopia is better against thresh because their creatures are two big for massacre.

Good luck

[Sigar]

Cabal Therapy over Duress, because no one here plays combo. In the last two tournaments I have seen 2 belcher and 1 reset high tide total.

Yes, Massacre is horrible, but it is not possible for me to get Dystopia for tomorrow. Any other suggestions for that spot?

[technogeek5000]

well how large is the field... also if your meta is full of control i would still run duress.

Umm i suggested perish a while back. Its a nice card and if you cant get a hold of dystopias (maybe the store has them:wink: ) then perish is probably your best alternative.

[Sigar]

I dont have Perish either. I think I'm gonna add 3/4 Dark Confidant to the SB.

[technogeek5000]

What wouldn't you side him in against besides goblins? Dark confidant is the nuts which is why I always advocate running a maindeck layset of him, I would find room for him in your maindeck.

[Tacosnape]

Cabal Therapy over Duress, because no one here plays combo. In the last two tournaments I have seen 2 belcher and 1 reset high tide total.

Yes, Massacre is horrible, but it is not possible for me to get Dystopia for tomorrow. Any other suggestions for that spot?

Out of curiosity, why in God's name are you running Suicide Black in a field of no combo?

[technogeek5000]

Out of curiosity, why in God's name are you running Suicide Black in a field of no combo?

Sui black is good against aggro and goblins as well as combo. The only time it would be unwise to play sui black is if your meta is full of control and prison decks.

[Galroth]

My experience has been different. Pure aggro has always been my hardest match-ups. Suicide black's disruption elements are more that sufficient to fight through the control mu's with sui's quick tempo.

[technogeek5000]

Sui runs lots of creature removal, jitte, and dark ritual to speed the deck. All of this contributes to a great aggro control game. I dont think anyone plays pure aggro anymore because it dies to combo and has a bad prison MU. Our control suite is mostly designed to deal with creature decks and that leaves alot of dead cards against control.

[Tacosnape]

Sui runs lots of creature removal

...Like what, exactly?

[Phantom]

...Like what, exactly?

I LOL'd.

I thought the whole point of running Jitte here (much like in U/G madness) was that black had such shitty removal. I mean, isn't that why Red Death splashes Red? For a better removal suite? And I'm failing to see how the Goblins matchup is anything but "shaky", especially for the Stark builds (which I actually kind of like) which run roughly four hundred thousand Fanatic targets.

/hyperbole.

[Tacosnape]

I thought the whole point of running Jitte here (much like in U/G madness) was that black had such shitty removal. I mean, isn't that why Red Death splashes Red? For a better removal suite? And I'm failing to see how the Goblins matchup is anything but "shaky", especially for the Stark builds (which I actually kind of like) which run roughly four hundred thousand Fanatic targets.

Well, the real whole point of Jitte is that Jitte is absolutely insanely nuts already and that half of your targets are pro-STP, capable of getting first strike, capable of getting flying, or cost 1. But yes, it's the best removal Suicide Black has. Additional removal spells are circumstantial, but versatile: These include Engineered Plague, Cursed Scroll, and Dystopia.

Goblins actually runs me pretty much about even. Granted, Mogg Fanatic's a complete crackwhore, and I'll lose the first game more often than not even with the Jittes main. However, postboard, Goblins gets to contend with the ridiculous combination of Jitte, Engineered Plague, and Cursed Scroll. Meaning as long as they aren't running Patron of the Asshat, I'm slightly favored in games 2 and 3. Against an excellent Goblins player, I'd estimate I get this match about 40-45% of the time. Against an average Goblins player, closer to 60%.

In any case, however, Suicide Black does not want to see Goblins all day.

[technogeek5000]

...Like what, exactly?

I talk from the classic sui perspective. Classic sui runs 4-8 creature removal and my deck has recnetly added jittes. Thats more removal then most aggro control decks run. I know stark builds rely on jitte as their removal but classic sui runs edict, snuff out, smother maybe (im still testing these) and sometimes jitte.

[Tacosnape]

Suicide Black can't afford to run 8-12 creature removal spells. If you do, you get into the zone of either A. not being able to run enough discard spells to be strong against combo, or B. not running enough threats to have a distant prayer against control.

[technogeek5000]

Sigh...

I never said sui black runs 8-12. My old list used 7 and i had good combo/control matchups with hymn, duress, sinkhole, and wasteland plus hate in the sideboard. Here is the list i run and it runs a total of 8 creature removal and has good combo and aggro mathcups and roughly 50/50 control.

Land:
17 swamp
3 wasteland

Control:
4 Hymn to tourach
3 duress
3 Diabolic edict
3 snuff out
3 Sinkhole
2 Jitte (bugdet constraints)

Creatures:
4 Carnophage
4 Confidant
4 Hippie
3 Negator
3 Sarcomancy

Accel:
4 dark ritual

Sideboard:
4 E plauge
4 Dystopia
3 Null rod
3 Planar void
1 duress

[Galroth]

If I may offer my opinion on your deck (though I'm unsure if you want it :)...

I'm not going into any of the really controversial topics such as: dark confidant, yes or no... 1cc 2/2s, really worth it? You're not going to make changes based off a couple of sentences of rhetoric over those kinda decisions.

First, up that Jitte count to 4 boy! Go sell your body on the street, whatever it takes. Your deck needs them. You'll probably be safe cutting the edicts afterwards.

Next, why just 3x Duress? It's good for your curve and is often better discard than hymn. Strongly recommend 4x. What made you cut 1? Just trying to fit other stuff in? Improves your combo and control matchups while hurting your aggro matchup a bit. The inclusion of 2x more Jitte would more than suffice to make up the drop in your aggro MU's.

Probably my most controversial suggestion: 3x wasteland and 3x sinkhole... if you're going to chase a land destruction strategy I don't think you can go half way. They're probably the weakest cards in the deck admittedly (depending on your meta), but I would either cut them altogether and replace them, or run a full set. A single ld effect is a blip in tempo. 2 or 3 will often win a game. More LD would improve your control mu, it probably wouldn't hurt alot of your aggro matchups either as you usually should have atleast 1 or 2 1cc 2/2 beaters up; that'll generally leave you playing the beatdown.

Finally... chrome fuckin' mox. Dark ritual is hot acceleration, a couple of moxes are more than worth it. Probably not a full set as multiples are worthless, and I wouldn't want my swamp count lower than 15x. My current build runs 3x and 15 swamp. My mana curve is higher than yours. The acceleration is too beautiful not to run. Test it out a bit. Almost always you'll have a card worth pitching. Know that ld isn't going to be effective this game... toss it to mox. Know that your negator is going to be a losing proposition... make him useful by throwing him to mox.

I think you'll find that this will help the control mu's overall with little to no expense against your aggro mu's. They're small tweaks, see what you like.

[technogeek5000]

If I may offer my opinion on your deck (though I'm unsure if you want it :)...

I'm not going into any of the really controversial topics such as: dark confidant, yes or no... 1cc 2/2s, really worth it? You're not going to make changes based off a couple of sentences of rhetoric over those kinda decisions.

First, up that Jitte count to 4 boy! Go sell your body on the street, whatever it takes. Your deck needs them. You'll probably be safe cutting the edicts afterwards.

Next, why just 3x Duress? It's good for your curve and is often better discard than hymn. Strongly recommend 4x. What made you cut 1? Just trying to fit other stuff in? Improves your combo and control matchups while hurting your aggro matchup a bit. The inclusion of 2x more Jitte would more than suffice to make up the drop in your aggro MU's.

Probably my most controversial suggestion: 3x wasteland and 3x sinkhole... if you're going to chase a land destruction strategy I don't think you can go half way. They're probably the weakest cards in the deck admittedly (depending on your meta), but I would either cut them altogether and replace them, or run a full set. A single ld effect is a blip in tempo. 2 or 3 will often win a game. More LD would improve your control mu, it probably wouldn't hurt alot of your aggro matchups either as you usually should have atleast 1 or 2 1cc 2/2 beaters up; that'll generally leave you playing the beatdown.

Finally... chrome fuckin' mox. Dark ritual is hot acceleration, a couple of moxes are more than worth it. Probably not a full set as multiples are worthless, and I wouldn't want my swamp count lower than 15x. My current build runs 3x and 15 swamp. My mana curve is higher than yours. The acceleration is too beautiful not to run. Test it out a bit. Almost always you'll have a card worth pitching. Know that ld isn't going to be effective this game... toss it to mox. Know that your negator is going to be a losing proposition... make him useful by throwing him to mox.

I think you'll find that this will help the control mu's overall with little to no expense against your aggro mu's. They're small tweaks, see what you like.

Im probably going to up my jitte count to 3... multiples are never sexy and im not sure if theres room for the fourth.

I guess i realy dont have a meta, because i live in the bottom part of CT (though im tryin to work with a local store owner to set up tournaments there). The tournaments that i usually do go to are ones in MA. The meta there is a majority of aggro control (lots o goblins, major reason why i dont play a full playset of duress) with a healthy amount of combo and control. I run the fourth duress in the sideboard and side it in when nessesary. I run enough disruption so that 3 duress is always enough game 1.

The mana denial is realy essential... I have considered adding extra but it important factors on deck constraints force me to run 3 a piece. First off is wasteland... the reason i dont run 4 of him is because of the land count. I have basically worked out for my list that 17 is the correct number of swamps because i do not run shade (my build focuses on the early and mid game and to many times this guy was a vanilla 2/1 for me). I have expiremented running 4x wasteland with the 17 swamps but that caused problems with mana flood so i decided to keep my land count at 20. Sinkhole is just plain room in my deck. I like to keep my removal count high so i decided not to take from there. Also sinkhole is often subpar to other pieces of control that this could replace. I never realy have problems with running only 6 and confidant helsp me draw into more.

Ah chrome mox. I have tested this card countless times and I believe I intend to do so more. Probably my biggest problem with these is the card disadvantage they create. Also a new factor is that they do not work well with snuff out. Now that said they make this deck incredibly fast which helps out alot of matchups. I do intend to test these out once more but again bugdet constraints (only 14 :rolleyes: ) will probably make these a passing fancy.

Thank you for the suggestions for my list but I have realy gotten it to a point where I am comfortable with all the card choices and quantities. I will be playing the list the next chance i have (4x beserk maybe) and if I dont get mana flooded again (has nothing to do with my land count... a average of 9 lands a game is just unrealistic and probably the result of bad shuffling) I will share my results with the deck.

[Versus]

Admin: I got impatient! You can delete my "KSC" account. My Yahoo email was screwed up getting the activation link to me. I have nothing to do all day and wanted to post, so I just reregistered.

Hi guys.

Since deciding to make a comeback to MTG I've met with some pretty disastrous discoveries. Prosbloom is less than zero, Counterpost gets Wasted, and Squirrels just aren't going to cut it. Until Eldariel pointed me over here I was lacking any vision on where to start. All the combos of the past are gone and sifting through 7 years worth of cards (Invasion-Future Sight) was gonna be a big pain in the ass!

Then I saw this thread and maybe there is hope afterall

This is basically the deck that I slightly revised when Invasion was released and the Tempest block rotated out of Standard. I quit playing soon after. It's certainly nothing groundbreaking, but it's worked great for me.

---------------

4 Sarcomany
4 Carnopahge
4 Hippys
4 Dauthi Horror <--- I went with horrors over Slayers as Soltari Priest/Monk were HUGE back then.
3 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Negators

4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymms
4 Duress

3 Unholy Strength <----Something tells me that EVERY SINGLE PERSON here is going to sugest I change this to Jitte, am I right?? LOL

4 Dark Rituals
18 Swamp


SB:

2 Engineered Plague
2 Dystopia
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Wastelands
4 Sinkhole

---------------------------
I'll admit, the sideboard is pretty irresponsible as far as picking 15 cards aimed at specific threats. Basically I made it to change the deck dynamic around a bit. If my opp has MAJOR crad drawing advantage over me or creatures that block flyers (Longbow Archers were big then), or using lots of Ports, Academys, Reflecting Pools, ect, I'd take out the hippys and 4 others and bring in all 8 Land destruction cards. Keep in mind back then there was no meta (for me anyway) I didn't even have the internet. So I just built my decks, played them against whatever decks my friends used, and if they were soild I went to the tournament and just played.

I'm shocked that so many of you today are using basically the same build that was solid 7 years ago. Everything has changed, but not this. I looked at the CREATURE cards a lot of you are using that I'm not familiar with (ie cards released after Invasion) and I don't see much that slaps me in the face as being better than what was already out pre-2000. Nantuku Shade is good, but pump Knights are also good and I already own those. I don't see Confidant really helping the short game and that's really all we SHOULD need worry about to win, right?

Chrome Mox looks extremely solid, but I dunno. I don't have any budgetary contraints, but the only cards I would consider losing to include it would be the Ebon Hand.

I do like the Jitte as I said and WILL sub it in for the Unholy Strength
Also since today is the first I've heard of Leyline I will deffinatly consider it for my SB

One thing I do want to mention and was shocked no one else did is Auger of Skulls!!! Why has no one included this? Turn one Ritual him out,sack,regenerate,sack and you're opp just lost 4 cards! I'm probably missing something here.


Anyway just wanted to say whats up and I'm open to all suggestions except splashing another color! ;)

[Hummingbird TG]

Go up to 4 Engineered Plagues in the board; they can go in the Wasteland slots. If you play Wasteland, its generally always main as its never really a dead card(it also produces mana).

[Versus]

Go up to 4 Engineered Plagues in the board; they can go in the Wasteland slots. If you play Wasteland, its generally always main as its never really a dead card(it also produces mana).

Yeah, SB deffinately need reworking, Its a mess, really.

I think I have too many creatures up there too. It works for me, but I'm seeing MOST of you guys don't even run a full 20. I have 23...

I'm thinking about taking the Dauthi out for Rotting Giants (they work so well with the Negators) and bagging the OotEH altogether for an even 20. Then upping my Jitte to 4.

I'm torn, "shadow" are SO great in this deck especially with Jitte. I'll just have to wait and see I guess

[Hummingbird TG]

As for running Dark Confidant, maybe as a two-of to help late game.

[JohnnyCage]

One thing I do want to mention and was shocked no one else did is Auger of Skulls!!! Why has no one included this? Turn one Ritual him out,sack,regenerate,sack and you're opp just lost 4 cards! I'm probably missing something here.



You are missing something, Btw, welcome back to the world of magic, it is an amazing place isn't it? You cannot regenerate a creature you sac, so at best it could only be two cards.

[Versus]

HGT: I REALLY like this Dark Confidant, but I just think it slows things down early game. I dunno, I'm gonna play it as a proxy and then give it a final assessment.

Cage: LOL yeah, my rules knowledge is completely rusty. Thanks!


Okay, I have one question to everyone as it seems you are all in agreement of using Jitte in this deck...

Doesn't it slow down the tempo A LOT??! Turn one Ritual>Negator=BIG, Turn 1 Ritual>Carnopage>Carnophage>Sarcomany=BIG, Turn 1 Ritual>Duress>Hymn=BIG, but Turn 1 Ritual Duress>Jitte...Turn 2 Swamp>Dauthi Slayer...turn 3 Swamp>Carnopage>Equip Jitte to Dauthi and attack for 2, not so big.

By turn 3 SuiBlack should have your opp down to more than 18.

I'm NOT negating the power of Jitte, I'm just curious how you're using it here

[technogeek5000]

Umm yah dark confidant and jitte are realy impressive cards. Also maindeck wastelands and sinkholes and bump the plauges up to 4.

Jitte and confidant give this deck a reasonably strong mid and end game. Jitte clears the board of most creatures you will face, gains life when you need it, and puts up a clock against your opponent.

Dark confidant is a great card all around so i would seriously get the money together to buy a playset of him. If you go into late game drawing 2 cards every turn will always give you the tools you need to swing the tide of the game. Also he is a beater.

I dont like order of the ebon hand, and in classic sui builds without nantuko shade hes even worse. If your gonna take my advice and maindeck sinkholes and wastelands, look at these to take out for room.

If you want here is my sideboard. Maybe you can draw ideas from it

4 e plauges
3/4 planar void
3/4 dystopias (I change these two around depending on where i play)
3 null rod
1 duress

Good luck with one of my favorite decks, and welcome back to magic.

[Versus]

So Jitte is only good (as far as SuiBlack) is concerned in mid-late game then? I agree that this is where Confidant is strongest as well, but I dunno how I feel about mid-late game Suicide, that's kind of an oxymoron, no?

I TOTALLY see where you're coming from and I'm not against trying it, but to be honest it seems like the Confidant route changes the whole deck. I'm guessing you're against Negators in this as well?

I do however agree that Sinkhole/Wasteland should be played in unison. That's how I've done it in the past.

And thanks for the welcome!

[Galroth]

With regard to Chrome Mox you're probably safe cutting land for it's inclusion. With your build I'd suggest -2 swamp +2 mox. The general rule of thumb is that if you want 2 swamp by turn 2 then 15 swamp is the minimum. I like playing it safe and going to 16 swamp to give a slightly greater probability of 2 swamp by turn 2. With Dark ritual and mox the dual bb is really not an issue though.

Good luck.

[JohnnyCage]

Okay, I have one question to everyone as it seems you are all in agreement of using Jitte in this deck...

Doesn't it slow down the tempo A LOT??! Turn one Ritual>Negator=BIG, Turn 1 Ritual>Carnopage>Carnophage>Sarcomany=BIG, Turn 1 Ritual>Duress>Hymn=BIG, but Turn 1 Ritual Duress>Jitte...Turn 2 Swamp>Dauthi Slayer...turn 3 Swamp>Carnopage>Equip Jitte to Dauthi and attack for 2, not so big.

By turn 3 SuiBlack should have your opp down to more than 18.

I'm NOT negating the power of Jitte, I'm just curious how you're using it here

Jitte will also have two counters on it that turn, so it will be 4 life or two 1/1s dead, and turn four you could have a 6/6 slayer ready to do so again, jitte is removal.

[Versus]

Galroth: I'm considering the Moxes, thanks


Jitte will also have two counters on it that turn, so it will be 4 life or two 1/1s dead, and turn four you could have a 6/6 slayer ready to do so again, jitte is removal.

Very true. Basically Jitte is Unholy Strength, Contagion, and life gain all rolled into one. Now I know why I see it in almost every build.

[Galroth]

Concerning Jitte: It is impressively powerful in conjunction with the 1cc 2/2s. One of your most broken plays is turn 1 beater, turn 2 dark ritual jitte equip said beater and... well, beat. I've also seen it in a great many lists recently, but I don't think jitte has a place in all suicide black builds. I wrote a couple of pages back about how there are really two variants of sui-black running around right now; stark's build and a more traditional build (look at the first post to get an idea of what i'm talking about).

In builds with a creature base akin to Red Death I think Jitte is more appropriate for the sideboard. You don't run as many targets to equip a Jitte to, and your curve is higher so your turn 2 plays and turn 3 players are your creatures; in contrast a lower curve would expect a turn 1 or 2 drop and Jitte becomes your turn 2 or 3 play. Also the more traditional builds pack a tad more disruption in place of the fewer (and larger) creatures they run, so Jitte's removal is generally not as necessary. If you're playing something like Stark's build, I think it's a must though. It makes your 1cc 2/2s extremely powerful and useful throughout the midgame.

Concerning Wasteland and Sinkhole: I disagree with Technogeek that it's needed in all forms of suicide black. I think that if you're going to run land destruction you need a full compliment, which will cut into the number of threats you can boast. So in a more traditional build with fewer threats, it works quite a bit better, plus the threats are large and land destruction is designed to gain tempo so the two work better in conjunction than land destruction would work with 2/2s.

Compare this to Stark's build. I know he was in the Flash meta, and land destruction wasn't as good at that point - regardless, I think he has it right if you choose that direction. He increased his discard effects to 12 and forewent the land destruction completely. First he doesn't have room to include enough land destruction to rely on it as a strategy. Second, it's not as effective with the creature base he's running. Negator and Specter are benefited much more from a slow in the opponents tempo than Carnophage, Sarcomancy, or pump knights.

[Versus]

well said. I don't think you can waver on these builds. You can only go in one direction after you have decided on a specific direction. We're all building the same house, but what furniture goes into it has to match the interior. Does that make sense?

I'm more interested in the quick and deadly aggro version than the total disruption build. I love the 1 drop creatures and fast tempo in this deck and wouldn't really want to play it any other way.

That being said, what do you think about this revision? Or am I still combining the two build types by including eight 3cc's??

4 Sarcomany
4 Carnopahge
4 Hippys
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Negators
2 Rotting Giant

4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymms
4 Duress

4 Jitte

2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Rituals
16 Swamp

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needles
3
2 Dystopia






I think the Sarcomancy>Negator>Rotting Giant Synergy is awesome here. Each helping the other overcome their negative points.

I just changed this list like 100 times. I'm starting to overthink it. Now I wanna take the Hippys out as it's my first choice to go when I opening hand a Mox.

[Tacosnape]

I went an entirely different direction with Suicide Black and have found I do a lot better than before with it. I basically tapped into the fact that Black's best 1 drops (Carno, Sarco) were Zombies, as were Anurid and Rotting Giant, and decided to just go Zombie with the deck.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
2 Unholy Grotto

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
3 Rotting Giant
2 Wretched Anurid
3 Withered Wretch
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Undead Warchief

SB:
4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pithing Needle

The end result of this change thus far (My testing is limited so far, so I can't say for sure) was a far better match against both aggro and control with a slight sacrifice against certain combo. However, the deck is fully equipped with the tools to deal with almost any of the top tier decks. Jitte, Plague, and large bodies make the deck strong against Goblins. Dystopia and Needle are nightmares for Survival. Unholy Grotto backed up with threats and discard is a pain for most control decks (Landstill still isn't favorable I don't think, but it's a lot more manageable than with Stark Black.)

The Grottos might become Mouth of Ronoms (And the Swamps snow-covered, obviously) to give me a late-game creature blaster that the deck severely misses.

[Versus]

Interesting! I had to look up the Undead Warchief. Not really getting much benefit from the :1: less, but the +2/+1 is great. See, I like when players vary up there builds, too much netdecking these days for my tastes. Very nice.

I'm not sure I understand your wanting to include snow-covered lands though??

Golrath: I'm playtesting that new build above for the last half hour or so and THREE times now my opening hand I had the choice to Ritual out either a Negator OR a Sarcomancy/Jitte. I didn't know what to do! Usually a turn one Negator is king, but now you got me questioning myself.

On the otherhand, Chrome Mox FTW. Turn one: Ritual>sack a Dauthi for the Mox>Negator>Sarcomancy---Turn 2: Attack for 7...MEAN!

[Tacosnape]

Interesting! I had to look up the Undead Warchief. Not really getting much benefit from the :1: less, but the +2/+1 is great. See, I like when players vary up there builds, too much netdecking these days for my tastes. Very nice.

I'm not sure I understand your wanting to include snow-covered lands though??

The Snow-Covered Swamps would have to be in there if and only if I played Mouth of Ronom, due to Mouth of Ronom needing Snow Mana to use.

The :1: less is far more relevant than you might guess thanks to the turn two play of Dark Ritual / Undead Warchief. I've gone turn two Ritual-Warchief, then followed it by dropping out insane Anurid/Giant combos on turn three (For one mana apiece!) In a way, it turns the temporary mana acceleration from Dark Ritual into permanent mana acceleration. It also lets you drop turn three Lord of the Undeads if you get stuck at two mana, or drop out Lord/Giant or Lord/Anurid combos.

[Versus]

AHA, Wretched Anurid is a Zombie as well. I hate not knowing what all these cards post Invasion do! 7 years is too long to catch up on in a week!

[kabal]

I went an entirely different direction with Suicide Black and have found I do a lot better than before with it. I basically tapped into the fact that Black's best 1 drops (Carno, Sarco) were Zombies, as were Anurid and Rotting Giant, and decided to just go Zombie with the deck.


what about Gempalm Polluter (http://magiccards.info/le/en/70.html) since you have an army of Zombies?

[Tacosnape]

what about Gempalm Polluter (http://magiccards.info/le/en/70.html) since you have an army of Zombies?

Why? If I have the army of zombies intact I should be winning anyway. And if I don't have the army of zombies, Polluter isn't going to help.

[Goblin Snowman]

I went an entirely different direction with Suicide Black and have found I do a lot better than before with it. I basically tapped into the fact that Black's best 1 drops (Carno, Sarco) were Zombies, as were Anurid and Rotting Giant, and decided to just go Zombie with the deck.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
2 Unholy Grotto

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
3 Rotting Giant
2 Wretched Anurid
3 Withered Wretch
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Undead Warchief

SB:
4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pithing Needle

The end result of this change thus far (My testing is limited so far, so I can't say for sure) was a far better match against both aggro and control with a slight sacrifice against certain combo. However, the deck is fully equipped with the tools to deal with almost any of the top tier decks. Jitte, Plague, and large bodies make the deck strong against Goblins. Dystopia and Needle are nightmares for Survival. Unholy Grotto backed up with threats and discard is a pain for most control decks (Landstill still isn't favorable I don't think, but it's a lot more manageable than with Stark Black.)

The Grottos might become Mouth of Ronoms (And the Swamps snow-covered, obviously) to give me a late-game creature blaster that the deck severely misses.

You're running a Suicide Black Zombie deck without Graveborn Muse? For shame. The list looks fairly solid, but four Lord of the Undead in addition to two Unholy Grotto is a bit overkill, and I would recommend running Factory or even Wasteland over the Grottos.

[Tacosnape]

You're running a Suicide Black Zombie deck without Graveborn Muse?

See all posts about Dark Confidant in Suicide Black. I want to hit people in the face, not win the long game. And if I wanted the long game I'd run Grave Defiler. Secondly, Fetchlands/Carnophage/Anurid is plenty of life loss. Thirdly, Muse costs 4, and the only 4CC guy I can swing is Warchief.

This isn't a gimmicky zombie deck. It's Suicide Black with four of the most efficient threats in Legacy. My 1-drops are 2/2, and several of my 2-drops are 3/3. And I run eight guys who pump them.


The list looks fairly solid, but four Lord of the Undead in addition to two Unholy Grotto is a bit overkill, and I would recommend running Factory or even Wasteland over the Grottos.

I don't like Wasteland here because I need my mana up until the point I hit 5. Factory's an option worth trying I suppose. Dust Bowl also comes to mind. The crucial reasoning behind Unholy Grotto is that I don't really need anything more than double black, and just double black for Hymns, Zombie Pumpers, and dropping multiple :1::b: guys after a Warchief. I also am not running Shade or any black mana pumpers. Therefore there's no good reason that I couldn't have between 2-4 lands that do other cool shit. Grotto seemed like the obvious choice for two reasons: One, it was good against control. Two, recurring Warchiefs tended to let me win aggro stalemates, which especially happen a lot against other decks packing 4 Jittes. But other options might be workable.

As for Lord of the Undead, he's mostly there for the pump. The ability is icing. And in matches where I -need- Grotto's ability, Lord of the Undead isn't going to be alive to use his anyway.

[Versus]

You may want to consider working in the Chrome Moxes. Turn 2 Warchief is sweet, but Turn 1 Warcheif is wicked. Just adding 2 to my deck has made it much faster in playtesting tonight alone.

[Tacosnape]

You may want to consider working in the Chrome Moxes. Turn 2 Warchief is sweet, but Turn 1 Warcheif is wicked. Just adding 2 to my deck has made it much faster in playtesting tonight alone.

I have considered. I always go back and forth on Chrome Mox in this deck and all other Sui Blacks. I hate the card disadvantage but like the speed. Mox is awesome when I go second but often makes me overcommit when I go first.

I think Chrome Mox is a metagame call. If you expect more combo and aggro, I say run the Chrome Moxes. If you expect control and aggro control, I say don't.

[Versus]

Agreed. Losing the card for speed is tempting but can bite you in ass too.
Sometimes I had an opening hand Edict or multiple zombies to discard, but when it came down to discarding a disruption spell I really was hard pressed to see it go.

There's deffinately no need to up the Mox count to 4 though, right?

[cheddercaveman]

See all posts about Dark Confidant in Suicide Black. I want to hit people in the face, not win the long game. And if I wanted the long game I'd run Grave Defiler. Secondly, Fetchlands/Carnophage/Anurid is plenty of life loss. Thirdly, Muse costs 4, and the only 4CC guy I can swing is Warchief.

This isn't a gimmicky zombie deck. It's Suicide Black with four of the most efficient threats in Legacy. My 1-drops are 2/2, and several of my 2-drops are 3/3. And I run eight guys who pump them.



I don't like Wasteland here because I need my mana up until the point I hit 5. Factory's an option worth trying I suppose. Dust Bowl also comes to mind. The crucial reasoning behind Unholy Grotto is that I don't really need anything more than double black, and just double black for Hymns, Zombie Pumpers, and dropping multiple :1::b: guys after a Warchief. I also am not running Shade or any black mana pumpers. Therefore there's no good reason that I couldn't have between 2-4 lands that do other cool shit. Grotto seemed like the obvious choice for two reasons: One, it was good against control. Two, recurring Warchiefs tended to let me win aggro stalemates, which especially happen a lot against other decks packing 4 Jittes. But other options might be workable.

As for Lord of the Undead, he's mostly there for the pump. The ability is icing. And in matches where I -need- Grotto's ability, Lord of the Undead isn't going to be alive to use his anyway.

Yes, I'm sure you don't want to be playing a long game, but its going to happen some of the time. There is a reason that every low casting cost black deck plays dark confidant, its amazing. Drawing a card every turn with only some miniscule life loss is amazing for an aggro deck. Helps insure no mana screw, gets you removal/disruption faster, drawing cards in magic is amazing. The kicker here is, that your guy who's doing that, also swings for 2. Its a creatures, so if your looking like your going to die you can kill it (unlike something like phrexian arena which black has trouble getting rid of). He's also about the biggest bullseye that black can play right now, so he's going to take some sort of removal that your other guys wont be taking.

In your deck with the number of zombies something like graveborn muse could potentially be better, but don't just immediately dismiss bob because your not looking for the "late game". Its an amazing card if your looking to play any fast, black-based deck.

[Versus]

I think the pro-Confidant/anti-Confidant points have been well made. It's a solid card, but as was said threre are two kinds of mono-black right now the Aggro varient and the control varient.

True Suicide Black is meant to be played fast, lethal, and a little bit recklesss. Confidant is great for the long game, but if Sui is played right, there won't be one.

That's just my opinion, but it seems like taco as well as some other guys share the same.

[Tacosnape]

In your deck with the number of zombies something like graveborn muse could potentially be better, but don't just immediately dismiss bob because your not looking for the "late game". Its an amazing card if your looking to play any fast, black-based deck.

I'm not dismissing Dark Confidant. I'm merely saying that if he's not generally accepted as a playable piece of normal Suicide Black, Graveborn Muse, for the exact same reasons, isn't going to be generally accepted as a playable piece of Thriller (Which is what I'm calling this deck. I'm also going to start taking a boom box to tournaments and playing the Vincent Price part whenever I swing for the win.)

Granted, Graveborn Muse is naturally larger than Confidant, but he's also twice the cost, making him fairly prohibitive. I'm also losing life to Fetchlands, Anurids, and Carnophages already.

[Versus]

What if we just tanked the traditional SB and used this instead: Using my build a few posts ago...

4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
4 Confidant
3 Engineered Plague

You could sub out the Negators/Dauthi/Moxes/Giants and include the 8 LD and 4 Confidants and completely change the dynamic of the deck depending on your match-ups? Then you would have both varients on hand in one deck.

[Tacosnape]

What if we just tanked the traditional SB and used this instead: Using my build a few posts ago...

4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
4 Confidant
3 Engineered Plague

You could sub out the Negators/Dauthi/Moxes/Giants and include the 8 LD and 4 Confidants and completely change the dynamic of the deck depending on your match-ups? Then you would have both varients on hand in one deck.

This seems like a bad idea. To me, the sideboard has always been the biggest strength of Suicide Black. Packing things like Dystopia wins me more random matches than I can possibly count. Plus, it seems fairly risky (even for Sui Black) to have absolutely no way to handle artifacts, enchantments, or graveyards anywhere in your 75 cards.

Also, Dauthi Slayer? Wtf? When did 2/2's for 2 become efficient beaters?

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Also, Dauthi Slayer? Wtf? When did 2/2's for 2 become efficient beaters?


They didn't. This isn't old school magic anymore. As much fun as 2/2 Shadowers are, they just don't cut it anymore.

[Versus]

It looks oldschool, cause it is! I'm a bit dated as you can tell. It's basically the frame of my old Hatred deck that I subbed in Hippys and Hymns right after Tempest Block rotated out of Type II. I dusted it off about a week ago and after finding out the Archetype isn't dead like the rest of the decks I played it rekindled my interest.

All the newer creatures you guys are running are brand new to me. I've been subbing on one creature at a time in place of ones less desirable by todays standards. Keep in mind that MY mind is still locked in the 90's where having Dauthi Horrors/Order of the Ebon Hands were key in defeating white. I don't really know this new metagame at all. Fish, Thresh, Pickles??? Weenie, Permission, and good old Burn is what I know! I have a lot to relearn.

I've played this type of deck for years, Flesh Reavers, Barrow Ghouls, Erg Raiders have all come and gone and now I have a whole seven years worth of new creatures to try. I'll catch up to all of you eventually.

I have been play testing the deck all night subbing out 4 creatures at a time for Wretched Anurids, Shades, and rotting Giants. Against the fish bowl it was doing great, but when my wife used my old Sligh deck against me I got my ass beat. I did everything right (against burn), I held back the Negators for an early disruption strategy, but I couldn't stop enough of her threats and I was drawing shit for mana. I SB'd in Engineered Plague, but theres more than Goblins in there so it didn't pan out.

Its all irrelevant I guess, when the deck I'm testing is agasint a deck that isn't being played in todays game, but I don't really have any other resources right now.

[Sigar]

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
2 Unholy Grotto

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
3 Rotting Giant
2 Wretched Anurid
3 Withered Wretch
4 Lord of the Undead
4 Undead Warchief


Have you thought about Festering Goblin and/or Aether Vial?

I run my own Vial Zombies at the moment and it's quite good. I just don't know if the lack of a black piledriver and lackey is crucial.

What about Snuff Out? - do you really find Jitte enough in terms of creature removal?

[Versus]

I'm officially discouraged with this deck. This could be PURELY meta related, but at my house against a (Tempest Block) Sligh deck that my wife plays (WHOS ONLY JUST LEARNED LAST WEEK) consistantly beats my ass.

Ritual out a Hippy...Incinerated
Ritual out early disruption (Duress/Hymn) I get a shock or incinerate at best
Ritual out a Negator...NO THANKS!

Equip a Sarcomancy with Jitte....Shock
Equip another....Kindle

Meanwhile Ball Lightning, Jackal Pups, Sarcomancy Enchantments, and my own Anurids effects just eat me down. And this is AFTER SB'ing in 4 Engineered Plagues for the Negators!

At LEAST I'm getting beaten by my another deck I built, but I just can't see how this Archetype is staying competitive today?

[Galroth]

Don't be too discouraged. Red sligh and burn have always been one of suicide black's worst match-ups. Trust me when I say you're going to have better game against almost every other deck. Even better news: sligh and burn lose to just about everything else in Legacy (huge generalization - the point is they're not played for a reason). So this is an uncommon match-up to face outside of kitchen table play and 8 person tournaments in the boondocks.

[Versus]

Thanks Galroth. I'm gonna give it shot as soon as I find a place to play. I've tweaked it as well as I can. I've dropped all the dated cards and picked up singles of Jitte and the more desirable creatures. I may drop the eight Zombies altogether, but we'll see.

[technogeek5000]

I havent been on in a while and would just like to adress a few things.

@Tacosnape: I dont realy think your decklist has a better control matchup. Also why open yourself to plauge. The plauge wont kill any of your creatures but with a little removal and some guys to block with black aggro(not just sui, but any aggro deck thats splashes black) would seem to be a bad matchup.

@Versus: As i have said, i realy think you should move the land disruption to the maindeck so you have room for answers to the top decks.

Also just because sui black wants a good early game
doesnt mean you shouldnt run confidant or jitte. When you go into the mid and late game which this deck often does then going into topdeck mode wont win you games.

[Versus]

As of yet I haven't tested the deck with the LD approach tecno, but I'm not against the idea of it. I currently have 23 creatures in my deck so fitting in 4 Sinkholes wouldn't be a problem.

I can't agree with you more about the Jitte though. I just played a matchup against the very same burn deck I mentioned above and won using a slower game strategy. I held back the early Negators and Anurids and used disruption until my opps. hand was all used up. Edicts took care of early threats until finally I took the offensive and rode a single Jitte equipped Carnophage to victory.

[technogeek5000]

As of yet I haven't tested the deck with the LD approach tecno, but I'm not against the idea of it. I currently have 23 creatures in my deck so fitting in 4 Sinkholes wouldn't be a problem.

I can't agree with you more about the Jitte though. I just played a matchup against the very same burn deck I mentioned above and won using a slower game strategy. I held back the early Negators and Anurids and used disruption until my opps. hand was all used up. Edicts took care of early threats until finally I took the offensive and rode a single Jitte equipped Carnophage to victory.

Wow 23 creatures, i only run 17/18 creatures.

I actually have found burn to be a mildly easy matchup. I am as of now 4-1 against burn on MWS and none of my game wins were due to my opponents playing a bad deck or skill level. I find that sinkholes are always back breaking and that discard is extremely relevant. Negators are almost always my finishers so i never side them out.

[Versus]

Yeah, much of my trouble against burn were my own mistakes. Ritualing out a Negator first turn only to be Bolted was pretty stupid of me. Now if it's burn I'll wait and use them later on when I can spare the permanents.

23 creatures is a lot, but other than further disruption in the form of Unmask or more removal in the form of Vendetta there really isn't much I can do for replacements. IF I decided to go the LD route I would cut my swamps by 2 and my creatures by 6 for the 4 of each Sinks/Waste. Also any sideboarding I do can basically cut all creatures and leave the rest of the deck intact

Right now I'm happy with the build, but as I said playing at home against ancient decks is not a good means to gauge it's effectiveness.

[Galroth]

I thought I'd post my current build for review and critique. It differs in that I've chosen not to run a list similar to Stark's build, i.e. no flurry of 2/2 zombies. In addition, I'm not sure if you could actually call this a suicide black build. It's aggressive, it's black, but it plays almost more aggro-control than suicide. But then again, maybe I'm just use to the days of Hatred where suicide black was all out do-or-die.

--
CORE CARDS (45)
15x Swamp
3x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Wasteland
4x Sinkhole
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant
3x Nantuko Shade
CARDS OFTEN BOARDED OUT (15)
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Plague Spitter
4x Duress
3x Smallpox
SIDEBOARD (15)
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Engineered Plague
4x Dystopia
4x Planar Void

--
A brief explanation concerning some of my choices:

DARK CONFIDANT: Again this build doesn't have the suicidal aggressive tempo a little more typical of this arch-type. I'm running 19 threats, some with savage disynergy. I need the card advantage and the ability to play through the mid late game with a build like this. Confidant is more warranted than usual and his inclusion as such is pretty clear.

PHYREXIAN NEGATOR & PLAGUE SPITTER: That savage disynergy (sp?) I just spoke about... yeah, it's pretty much embodied right here. I decided to sacrifice some of the synergy for the inclusion of cards which while they may not work together, when dropped against specific decks, are bombs that win you the game. These 2 creatures can be that. The times where they actually interfere with each other is seldom. If you have a Negator in play... don't drop Spitter... or pitch it to chrome mox, whatever. Again this is a reason the deck doesn't feel suicidal. I usually just ride 1 or 2 threats to victory instead of going all out aggro.

As Tacosnape previously mentioned, some of the reason to play suicide black in Legacy is because of the beautiful sideboard options available to it. There are hardly any matchups that don't improve game 2 and 3. Typically one of these 2 (negator or spitter) will come out game 2 and 3 while the other stays. For example: Against Gobbos, Spitter stays and Negator goes out bringing in Engineered Plague. Again, the idea was to sacrifice some maindeck synergy for cards that are bombs in themselves.

SMALLPOX: Why is it mainboarded over Jitte?! Well, I find that in game 1 small pox is generally the more useful card. If you end up with a discard heavy hand or a land destruction heavy hand, small pox can push that over the edge to back breaking for the opponent. Jitte is amazing, don't get me wrong, but I find it's only really needed against aggro. Smallpox is better against control and combo. Plus since I'm running a light threat density Jitte is a little less effective than usual, especially without the 2/2 zombies as a turn 1 play.

PLANAR VOID: Is this better than Tormod's Crypt? I don't know. Feedback welcome. I worry about the rise of decks like manaless Ichorid. I even use to run Leyline of the Void with Serum Powder so I could mulligan to it. But that felt like too many slots devoted to match-ups that really aren't that common. So I made some room, got rid of Serum Powder and switched Leyline to Planar Void.

--
Boarding is pretty simple and alot of fun. The maindeck is set up to deal with combo and control excellently game 1. Aggro-control and aggro are a bit more problematic but still winnable. (Should I really risk generalizing the deck-types when there is so much variation in Legacy... ah well.) Engineered Plague, Jitte, and Spitter rip apart almost all aggro. Dystopia was chosen not only for Thresh, but also for white weenie which is one of the worst match-ups game 1.

All in all I've been very satisfied with this list. It's solid though it plays quite a bit differently than Stark's sui-black variants. I thought I'd toss it out there for what I think a build not going in that direction might look like.

[zulander]

There is savage synergy between Plague Spitter, Negator AND Confidant. Seems really bad here.

[Versus]

Yeah, I don't like telling people what (not) to play especially when they already pointed out the problem themselves, but I'm not liking those Spitters here one bit. However if you SBing one out and keeping the other than the lack of synergy isn't really a factor.

I think the Moxes are a good choice for you running Confidant. I met with some early success with them myself, but came to the conclusion the extra speed wasn't worth the card.

[Versus]

I didn't wanna bump this up, but I'm gonna be trying this out on Saturday and just wanna run the SB past you guys.

I'm gonna keep the main deck as is. I only have 1 sinkhole and 3 Wastelands in my collection and I really can't afford to buy them or anything else. If you think running Cabal Therapy main deck is a bad idea or I have too many Jitte then I'll head that advise. I just can't stray too far beyond what's already listed.



4 x Nantuko Shade
4 x Pyrexian Negator
4 x Carnophage
4 x Sarcomancy
2 x Wretched Anurid
2 x Rotting Giant

4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Duress
4 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Cabal Therapy

4 x Umezawa's Jitte

4 x Dark Ritual
17 x Swamps

SB:

3 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Null Rod

My SB experience is pretty sucky, but I'll take a stab at what I THINK should be done agaisnt the current Decks to Beat and maybe you can advise me from there?

Thresh: I would guess that disruption would only help their game so I would: -4 Hymn, -2 Duress and +3 Tormod's Crypt, +3 Dystopia?

Belcher: They don't run creatures in the traditional sense so: -4 Edicts, -2 Jitte, -1 creature and +2 Null Rod, +2 Plague (for ETW), +3 Pithing Needle

Goblins: -2 Anurid, -2 Carnophage and +4 Plague???

Survival: Get Dystopia in there somehow??? I dunno?

Like I said, sucky. Any guidance would be great.

[Brehn]

Thresh: I would guess that disruption would only help their game so I would: -4 Hymn, -2 Duress and +3 Tormod's Crypt, +3 Dystopia?


Vs UGr Thresh I feel that Negator really has to go. I don't feel comfortable with siding out the disruption either. In my experience the 1cc Zombies do nothing but chump block and consume your life in this matchup, so I would go:

UGw:
-4 Sarcomancy
-2 Carnophage
UGr:
-2 Sarcomancy
-4 Phyrexian Negator

+3 Tormod's Crypt
+3 Dystopia

If they play Counterbalance/Top it might be a good idea to side in Pithing Needles.




Belcher: They don't run creatures in the traditional sense so: -4 Edicts, -2 Jitte, -1 creature and +2 Null Rod, +2 Plague (for ETW), +3 Pithing Needle


Why only 2 Plagues? I think that Jitte may be able to get rid of some goblins, so I'd leave it in.

-2 Wretched Anurid (those suck)
-4 Diabolic Edict
-1 Rotting Giant
-2 Phyrexian Negator (?)
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Pithing Needle
+2 Null Rod



Goblins: -2 Anurid, -2 Carnophage and +4 Plague???


I don't get it why you would want to side out an answer to Lackey O_o. What in hell do you need Duress for? I'm not sure though whether or not to side out Negator. Gempalm Incinerator and Siege-Gang Commander suck obv, but Negator sure puts some pressure on them.
I think I'd go
-4 Duress
-2 Wretched Anurid
+4 Engineered Plague
+2 Pithing Needle (see above)



Survival: Get Dystopia in there somehow??? I dunno?


I don't know the builds you are facing, but Pithing Needle definitely needs to come. Maybe even Tormod's Crypt, not sure about that one.

I'm not sure what matchups can be improved with Null Rod. If you don't expect Affinity, maybe replace it with Withered Wretch.

[Versus]

Excellent, thanks.


Why only 2 Plagues? I think that Jitte may be able to get rid of some goblins, so I'd leave it in.


Exactly why I asked. I can't think right when it comes to SB's. Probably cause most of my decks never had any.


don't get it why you would want to side out an answer to Lackey O_o. What in hell do you need Duress for?

What IS my answer to LAckey in that example? Simply that creatures greater than 1/1 ARE an answer? The Duress was merely to grap the Vial first turn if neccesary.


...Withered Wretch.

I was gonna ask about that. I know the Wretch is good against Thresh, but was wondering as soon as someone sacks their creature to SotF, can I use the WW's abilty to imediately remove it?

I considered maindecking Wretches over Anurids, but kept them for the extra power/toughness. The Anurid is better agaisnt Fanatics I suppose, but can be Bolted just as easily so maybe I should consider that change?

[Brehn]

What IS my answer to LAckey in that example? Simply that creatures greater than 1/1 ARE an answer? The Duress was merely to grap the Vial first turn if neccesary.

Anything that prevents a Lackey from swinging unblocked turn 2 is an answer. So leave those Carnophages (hell, they even trade with Piledriver!) in. Why are you so afraid of Vial?


I was gonna ask about that. I know the Wretch is good against Thresh,

Anurid trades with Mongeese and its drawback becomes negligible vs Thresh, so it's not that bad either.


but was wondering as soon as someone sacks their creature to SotF, can I use the WW's abilty to imediately remove it?

Yes. They discard it and you get to remove their Genesis/Anger/Squee/whatever even before they search their library.


I considered maindecking Wretches over Anurids, but kept them for the extra power/toughness. The Anurid is better agaisnt Fanatics I suppose, but can be Bolted just as easily so maybe I should consider that change?
I think so. If I look at the "Decks to Beat" Forum I see:
Thresh --- Wretch is great.
Goblins --- Anurid sucks.
Belcher --- Anurid sucks.
Loam --- Wretch is great.
Landstill --- about even. Anurid has nearly no drawback, Wretch can remove dead manlands.
RGSA --- Wretch is great.
Also, Ichorid and Breakfast see more and more play.

[Versus]

Alright, that all makes sense to me. I'm more than willing to replace the 2 Anurids with 2 Wretches. Maybe I should do that and run 2 WW's maindeck and nix the Rods for 2 more in the SB?

Other than being another answer to the Charbelcher the Null Rod isn't really helpful anywhere else?

[Brehn]

Null Rod is only good in the following matchups:
Belcher/TES/Iggy (should you be scared with the full pack of Duress, Hymn, Therapy and Plague?)
Affinity (does anybody play that?)
Golden Grahams (^ )
and that's it. So it should be replaced.

Edit: it also sucks in conjunction with Jitte.

[Versus]

Edit: it also sucks in conjunction with Jitte.

Ugh! Never even crossed my mind. You wouldn't be able to attach it, but are removing the counters considered a "cost"? Reguardless, you're right it's not needed here. Thank you for all the input. I'll still need some real time experience, but I feel much more capable now.

[technogeek5000]

It is considered as a cost. I run 3 null rods in my sideboard and i have always liked them. Combo isnt exactly a by, and it is good against a variety of decks. Vial affinity has had some form of a comeback and took second at the 4 sea drake thing in hadley.

I dont know if i like cabal therapy. If you dont hit anything in there hand then its a attack on your tempo. Im not saying its a bad card, but this deck wants to have as much creatures on the board as possible.

I might be playing my pile saturday to, but its still hazy if i will be going.

[Versus]

It is considered as a cost.

No kiddin'?! How so? Is it technically speaking because the "removing part" is the payment or the converting the counter to do what you want it to do?


I run 3 null rods in my sideboard and i have always liked them. Combo isnt exactly a by, and it is good against a variety of decks. Vial affinity has had some form of a comeback and took second at the 4 sea drake thing in hadley.

So it's gonna be a meta choice then for me? Lets say you were going to play in a new state with all new people and had no idea what the meta was like in that region, that's how I need to make my SB for the first few times. It's like a clean slate for me. That being said, would you go with the Rod?


dont know if i like cabal therapy. If you dont hit anything in there hand then its a attack on your tempo. Im not saying its a bad card, but this deck wants to have as much creatures on the board as possible.

I always saw CT as a compliment to Duress. Upon doing so if you see your threat, especially in multiples you follow it up with CT and you can't miss, you already know.


I might be playing my pile saturday to, but its still hazy if i will be going.

Good luck to you if you make it out.

[Sigar]

No kiddin'?! How so? Is it technically speaking because the "removing part" is the payment or the converting the counter to do what you want it to do?

Yes, removing a counter is the activation cost.

[technogeek5000]

So it's gonna be a meta choice then for me? Lets say you were going to play in a new state with all new people and had no idea what the meta was like in that region, that's how I need to make my SB for the first few times. It's like a clean slate for me. That being said, would you go with the Rod?

I would probably still play the nul rods because there good for all combo and combo is represented in mostmetagames, but i would probably play something less narrow then tormod's crypt. I would suggest planar void but you run rotting giant.

[Versus]

I would probably still play the nul rods because there good for all combo and combo is represented in mostmetagames, but i would probably play something less narrow then tormod's crypt. I would suggest planar void but you run rotting giant.

I'm only running 2 Giants, they can be SB'd out for the Voids easily enough and the price is right, I have loads of Urza Block cards lying around. The Jitte and Needles killed my wallet this past week so I'm more than happy to go that route. You still suggest using 3 in place of the Cyrpt?

Also, what would be your suggestion on replacing the 3 Cabal Therapy slots since you mentioned it before?

Edit: Forget I asked that! LOL I know all the cards suited for Sui even the ones I missed post Invasion I should be able to decide for myself. Also, Sarcomancy-Negator-Giant are great synergy imo and I'm not gonna change that because a card is cheaper.

I'm waffling like crazy here. It's one thing to tweak a deck to make it better, but to change it around every day when you haven't played anyone except your wife at the kitchen table is just getting rediculous.

[technogeek5000]

Void is so much harder to play around then crypt. Void also has the added bonus that most g-yard hate doesnt of being able to completely shut down goyf. Even if they dont have an answer to crypt, normally decks like ichorid can easily recover from it. Void is good because it completely shuts off the deck it gets sided in for unless they answer it, buying you many turns or simply winning the game on its own.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

This looks like a really fun deck archetype. I have been playing UG Madness for a while and I wanted to try something new. Suicide Black looks cheaper too without all the sac and dual lands..... Great topic so far. Would appreciate some suggestions for my mainboard. I will work on sideboard later.


Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Rotting giant
1 Wretched Annurid
4 Hippies
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomonacy

Removal
4 Umezawa's jitte
4 Diabolic Edict

Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
3 Wasteland
17 Swamps

Not sure about the Hippies, but they do add some Disruption and also swing with the Jitte flying. Makes it a bit easier to get counters on my fork without having to trade most of the time.

[Galroth]

Suggestions for your mainboard:

1) You're running 3x Wasteland and 0 Sinkholes. Cut the land destruction entirely or run it in full capacity. I think your list would probably better without it personally.

2) I think you'll want more disruption than just 4x Duress and 4x Hymn to Tourach. I suggest upping your discard effects and just focus on hand disruption by adding in 4x Cabal Therapy (This should make your disprution elements more effective in general by focusing them rather than having a fair amount of everything). I think you could cut some of the removal in order to fit these in better. The Stark suicide black builds rarely need the amounts of spot removal I see alloted to them. The build has a slew of creatures and you should be playing the beatdown against virtually every deck.

3) Rotting Giant and Wretched Anurid... I assume you grabbed this creature base from Red Death. These creatures are generally the last 4x slot filled because all the other options are considerably better. They are still lightning bolt and stp fodder, and at best 3/3's which while good are nowhere near fantastic. Negator is risky but generally considered an acceptable risk. Plus if you have a ritual in hand, a first turn hippie or negator swings the game highly in your favor. I would even turn to pump or the 'jump' knight over Giant and Anurid. Heck even Withered Wretch may be a better choice.

4) You might also consider Chrome Mox for additional acceleration. 2x or 3x in place of a few swamps/wastelands wouldn't be bad.

[technogeek5000]

tea cup: I would play negators over giant. its a much bigger creature and you dont have many ways to fill yor graveyard. I would also play sinkholes to complement your wastelands... personally think that the mana denial route is the way to go, and i believe that you dont need to ru more then 6 as galroth believes. I have shared my views on shade and confidant time and time again, but since you only run 17 swamps i would suggest running bob over nantuko.

good luck with the deck.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Thanks for the help. Well, it seems pretty unanimous that Negator has the edge over the Giant and Annurid. Can you give me a few examples how games play out with the Negator. It feels very risky to me, although I can see why it can bring the hurt to the opponent. I suppose the white splash is the more popular threshold splash though. Even so, trading with anything can hurt. I suppose the sinkholes and the wasteland can even the playing fields a bit and keep them off of mana. The Negator is a threat thats needs answering.

About those dang sinkholes, what would be a solid budget alternative to it in the mean time. I thought edict would be nice as it is never really a dead card. Is there anything better to throw in for now? Meh, I see why sinkholes and Wastelands are nice. I am going to have to go ebay hunting lol. This could be a while....

I think Bob and the Shade are more style choices. I read some of your posts techno and they made sense. Still, I am inclined towards the more beat face as soon as possible side of it. It is a shame that they are both somewhat pricey creatures and I dont want to buy one and find out I need the other lol. Its time to proxy test!

Oops... I just remembered Galroth's suggestion of Cabal Therapy. Hmmm, yeah I may go for that instead of Edict. I do have 20 creatures and that should be plenty to compliment it. Still, I usually dont feel comfortable with it unless I got off a duress first. I just hate whiffing with it.....

Edit Note: Just won 4 Cabal Therapies for $10 on ebay!!!!! Heh, these puppies are now going into my deck.

[technogeek5000]

Thanks for the help. Well, it seems pretty unanimous that Negator has the edge over the Giant and Annurid. Can you give me a few examples how games play out with the Negator. It feels very risky to me, although I can see why it can bring the hurt to the opponent. I suppose the white splash is the more popular threshold splash though. Even so, trading with anything can hurt. I suppose the sinkholes and the wasteland can even the playing fields a bit and keep them off of mana. The Negator is a threat thats needs answering.

About those dang sinkholes, what would be a solid budget alternative to it in the mean time. I thought edict would be nice as it is never really a dead card. Is there anything better to throw in for now? Meh, I see why sinkholes and Wastelands are nice. I am going to have to go ebay hunting lol. This could be a while....

I think Bob and the Shade are more style choices. I read some of your posts techno and they made sense. Still, I am inclined towards the more beat face as soon as possible side of it. It is a shame that they are both somewhat pricey creatures and I dont want to buy one and find out I need the other lol. Its time to proxy test!

Oops... I just remembered Galroth's suggestion of Cabal Therapy. Hmmm, yeah I may go for that instead of Edict. I do have 20 creatures and that should be plenty to compliment it. Still, I usually dont feel comfortable with it unless I got off a duress first. I just hate whiffing with it.....

Edit Note: Just won 4 Cabal Therapies for $10 on ebay!!!!! Heh, these puppies are now going into my deck.


Umm heres what happens when a negator goes unanwsered. Turn 1 play negator... Turn 4 or less win. For creature removal play smother over edict... dont replace them with therapy. A alternative to sinkhole that i have seen here is encroach. 1 mana to yank a land out of there hand. Gratz on getting th therapies for o cheap but i dont know if i would play them.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I am not sure why Cabal Therapy should not be played. I have 20 creatures which is more enough flashback fodder. It can seriously rip into hands, and fits with the general hand disruption theme of the deck. It just seems really powerful here. I am definitely open to why it is not good here, but it seems a stronger than smother.

Heh, just noticed you posted already on the subject above. Meh, I can always sell my therapies for profit if they dont work out in play testing lol.

[Versus]

Techno: I understand the benefits of Void, and the Giants aren't very dear to me. I have found them to be effective without any drawback. Only running 2 I've always had a card in the GY to utilize him, but as I said it's not a neccesity that he stays. However, running Void is going to cause some disynergy with Cabal Therapy. I know you're not a fan of using them, but I think a Duress followed by Therapy can be brutal. You're guaranteed at least 1 card and maybe 2. I have the 4 of them coming in the mail, so I havent had experience with them yet. I don't know how often the reusing of one is going to be.

Diabolic Edict has helped win games for me. I can't not see it's inclusion here. Smother is a solid choice though. Tarmy, most goblins, Bears all fit the bill. Edict could grab all those including a Mongoose. I guess it's just preference here. Back in the day White Weenie with Paladins. Knights, and Soltari were huge so maybe my opinion of it is dated, but I still stand by it's inclusion.

LordEvilTeaCup: You're deck is very similar to mine, so I'll chime in here as well. What everyone has said is right. Their veiws differ concerning running LD, but I think they both agree (as do I) that if you run one (Wastes) you run the other(Sink).

I've cut the Anurids from my deck completely and replaced them with 2 Wretches main/2 SB. I'm thinking their drawback may cause me some grief. Also my Rotting Giants as most likely getting the boot and I'm putting Pump Knights back in. The first strike (w/Jitte) and protection from STP is a big plus imo. Still (as I've said a 100 times now) I'm gonna play it out and see first what has to go. I wasn't able to this weekend, but there's a tourny on the 25th I WILL be attending.

And I just won 4 Cabal Therapy on ebay for $6.50! :tongue:

[LordEvilTeaCup]

And I just won 4 Cabal Therapy on ebay for $6.50!

HA HA HA, good stuff Versus. Hmmm, yeah I just looked at your list and I guess we just think on similar lines :cool:. What I like about your list in comparison to mine was the 17 swamps. I always like to fit more answers if possible and perhaps its time to take out the wastelands. Have you been getting enough mana though? I might try 18 swamps and throw in 2 Smothers or something. *Smacks self in the Head* I forgot smother killed Tarmy..... Please, show the world at the tourney why Cabal Therapy belongs in the deck! I will admit I am infatuated with the look of the card. I hope I don't have to get rid of the little guys :cry:.

This is really my first time using hand destruction as sort of a preemptive answer to what my opponent my have. I am much more used to Force of Wills and the like. That being said, is 4 Duress 4 Hymn 4 Hippie AND 4 Cabal Therapy why too much discard to be relevant? If so, I see it as Hippie versus Cabal here. The Hippies could become a face beating creature. The Therapy well could become Smother or Sinkhole (Which is expensive money wise...) Like I said, I never played discard so I wouldnt even know how much is too much.

[Versus]

No, I don't think Duress/Hymn/Hyppy/Cabal is too much disruption. I see it this way, you already have 20 creatures, the suitable amount mana. Besides removal and disruption, there isn't anything else you could bring to the table being mono black besides card drawing. Then we're talking Dark Confidants and that's a whole 'nother discussion. The camps are split on that.

As far as options beside what you're running:


Removal: You have the Edicts and Jitte. Smother is a great card too as we've said so is Snuff Out.

Accelerants: You have the 4 Ritual. The only thing you could change here is the addition of 2 Chrome Moxes for even more speed. I've found personally that 16 Swamp and 2 Moxes are good, but I wasn't a fan of losing the card to imprint on the Mox so I stuck with 17 straight Swamps. To answer your question I consistantly draw 2 lands in my opening hand.

LD: This approach takes on a more control oriented stance and theres nothing wrong with that, but it's not "Suicide" Black imo. This is a totally viable deck design, but you need the Sinks/Waste and I would no doubt run Confidant here.

Creatures: This in my opinion is the biggest debate on what players of this archetype prefer. Hyppies/No Hyppies? 1 drop Zombies? Some abide by them others think they are dated and should go. Negators? Risky, but lethal. Wretches? What's your meta like? Lots of Thresh and Survival? YES! I think Nantuko Shade is the ONLY slot that is consistant in 90% of the deck lists you see. Most important is make sure they have synergy.

My advice is just take the deck out and see what it does. You can always tune it for your environment afterwards.


Please, show the world at the tourney why Cabal Therapy belongs in the deck!

LOL If by "world" you mean 8-10 people in a sweaty comic shop, I'll do my best! :wink:

[technogeek5000]

Why do you favor the route without LD Versus. You have sink and waste and for the early game Hymn sometimes acts as a destruction effect yanking 1 or 2 lands out of their hand helping to ruin their mana base. So if you include the fact that hymn often grabs lands then you run more then 6 (the amount I run, will be 7 or 8 for other people) LD pieces. Oh and does it matter if it realy isnt true sui black... because were all trying to improve our decks as much as possible. if you stray off flavor or theme to make your deck stronger isnt it worth it.

[Versus]

It's absolutely worth it. I'm not denying the LD aspect, I think MBC is more than solid. That's how I see Confidant/Sink/Waste in mono black as more of a control game not so much agro.

You're right it doesn't matter what the deck is called as long as it performs well. I didn't mean to come off sounding like I was against going in that direction or that it was lesser in any way, I just prefer the aggressive balls out approach.

My tune may change. I've been building decks for my wife to play against me that antagonize my deck checking it for weakness . I made her a Boros like deck with lots of fast 1 and 2 drops and 12 burn spells. I've found in order to win I need to take the control approach. NO FIRST TURN NEGATORS no matter how tempting! If I get them in my opening hand I hold back and give up Zombie targets to take the burn, disrupt to empty her hand of threats, and then I drop the Negator when I have enough permanents to spare if it gets burned. Most times I don't even have to as a Jitte equipped pump knight delivers the final blows.

I'm starting to enjoy the slower game. I may just become a convert yet!

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I dont see myself playing Negators without the LD. I mean burn is out there and it will screw you over if you play Negators. There is too much in my area, but as mentioned Red Sligh is not highly played outside small tournies. Unfortunately for me, there is some Sligh in my meta. I am not sure what the probability is of my Negators getting bolted or chain lightened in larger tournies, but until I go to the Grand Prix or something I think I am going to hold off on him. Meh, wow I went off an a tangent. I guess I am annoyed that I cant play Negator in my area with a peace of mind. I was thinking that sinkholes would help out this deck's match up against burn though. Also, obviously it would help board wise by inhibiting the opponents abilities to send larger creatures for the Negator to run over. Hey, if anyone wants to trade or give or sell me some sinkholes for something reasonable just let me know :wink:

You know, Rotting Giant and Therapy have some weird interaction.... like Yin and Yang. Until I get over my Negator fears, I think I am going to run 2 Annurids and 2 Giants. They seem to me a bit underrated.

[Versus]

Negators aren't for the faint of heart that's for sure. Still I find even against burn they are playable, you just need some patience. 4 Bolts, 4 Incinerate, 4 Lighting Helix, and 16 cheap 1-3 drop creatures were in the deck I was playing against last night with the Negators main decked. You just have to hold them back till your opps hand is empty or you have enough land to sacrifice in case a Bolt flies his way.

Yup you can feed the Giant a single use Therapy or sack him to use Therapy again. That's sorta a disynergy/synergy all in one.

[blackguard90]

I dont see myself playing Negators without the LD. I mean burn is out there and it will screw you over if you play Negators. There is too much in my area, but as mentioned Red Sligh is not highly played outside small tournies. Unfortunately for me, there is some Sligh in my meta. I am not sure what the probability is of my Negators getting bolted or chain lightened in larger tournies, but until I go to the Grand Prix or something I think I am going to hold off on him. Meh, wow I went off an a tangent. I guess I am annoyed that I cant play Negator in my area with a peace of mind. I was thinking that sinkholes would help out this deck's match up against burn though. Also, obviously it would help board wise by inhibiting the opponents abilities to send larger creatures for the Negator to run over. Hey, if anyone wants to trade or give or sell me some sinkholes for something reasonable just let me know :wink:

You know, Rotting Giant and Therapy have some weird interaction.... like Yin and Yang. Until I get over my Negator fears, I think I am going to run 2 Annurids and 2 Giants. They seem to me a bit underrated.

Lol... That's kind of a bad excuse. Negators work fine in the "Flash Era No LD red death build" with confidant, burn, and jittes.

Again, Negator is perhaps the BEST beat black stick in ALL formats. Burn is a 40-60 match for my RD deck, so mono black can expect the same or worse. I NEVER hesitate playing a first turn gator against an unknown deck and opponent. In most cases, I would rather drop a gator than a hyppy first turn. If you know your opponent is playing burn/sligh, you hold him until they are out of cards. Even if they draw into a bolt, at that point it won't be enough to wipe your board. And NOTHING short of two burn spells can kill the gator, so I find that he is a beast in mid game against burn. I don't even board out any creatures against burn, because you need your threats. I do board in therapies to get rid of kinesis or fireblast.

LD helps everything in mbs or rd. Not good against certain decks, but still very powerful.

On a side note, I have 4x Unlimited Sinkholes that are in EX to SP conditions. Lmk if you are interested.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hmmm, you do make a good case for the Negators Blackguard. Also, I am very interested in those Sinkholes.

[Galroth]

If I were to tempt a Stark-black build...

DISRUPTION
4x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
CRITTERS
4x Sarcomancy
4x Carnophage
4x Nantmuko Shade
4x Stromgald Crusader
2x Order of the Ebon Hand
4x Hypnotic Specter
EQUIPMENT
4x Umezawa's Jitte
MANA
4x Dark Ritual
17x Swamp
2x Lake of the Dead

I've been considering switching over to this list - as I think the stark sui-builds are solid builds and less tempermental. They play a more sui-aggro approach and less aggro-control. However, the deck has less ability to just blow an opponent out of the water with a couple of must answer cards.

CARD CHOICE & THEORY

Land Destruction - There's been a little recurring debate on whether or not land destruction should be included in particular sui-black builds. I'll offer my take and the reasoning behind it. I think land destruction should not be included in the stark-black builds, but it should be in more traditional builds. Land destruction is disruption primarily aimed at tempo. It has other purposes; for instance keeping an opponent off a particular color, but land destruction is always and foremost a gain in tempo. With this in mind, land destruction is much more effective in the early turns of the game when the opponent is facing a large beater which they can't deal with (a first turn negator or specter being two excellent examples). The more traditional builds of sui-black tend to run less creatures overall, but more creatures of higher cc and size/devastating effect.

If running land destruction I would also advocate running a full complement of land destruction as multiple effects often don't buy you just 2 turns, but more. A single land is easy enough to replace but multiples may take a few turns for the opponent to draw into.

Stark-black runs more creatures, though smaller; primarily because of the 1cc 2/2's. This makes it tough to run a full complement of land destruction effects. It also means the creatures are generally less effective when paired with land destruction effects. However, the most important reason I wouldn't advocate land destruction in stark-black is because your second and third turn (when land destruction is most effective) stark-black usually wants to play other spells available to it. A second or third turn Jitte is almost always better. Dropping a creature, or two more is often a better play. Stark-black plays to overwhelm the opponent with its critters. It plays like and aggro-deck where older builds play 1 or 2 heavy threats with alot of disruption to ride those threats through (aggro-control's game plan).

Obviously not everyone is in agreement with me. And even if you may agree with the points I've brought up, that doesn't mean land destruction is still so effective that it's worth running anyways. Discuss.

Discard - Even though I've cut the land destruction the deck still wants more disruption than 4x Duress and 4x Hymn. Cabal Therapy is a good choice in the Stark-black builds because the build runs enough creatures that you're willing to sacrifice a couple. Discard is a bit more flexible than land destruction, particularly with regard to when it is optimally played. If you're facing off against combo, you play it as quickly as possible without care of when you drop your creatures. Against aggro you save your discard 'til after you've laid down a board presence when its purpose is to remove the late game bombs your opponent may have to react to what is hopefully your superior board position. And just as with all types of black disruption, obliterating one type of an opponents resources (hand, land, etc); it's most effective when completing eliminating a particuplar type of resource.

Critters - Part of the reason I am impressed with Stark's original list is because of the pump creatures. In his primer he explained their inclusion for two reasons. First they're excellent against fish-esque decks. Unfortunately this is no longer as important as in the flash era. However, some of the other justification for running pump critters (not just Shade) is because of the late game it offers the deck. Stark-black has a large excess of mana late game and the pump creatures are an excellent use of said mana. Late game they are just effective as a negator. This is the primary reason I chose to try these creatures over others.

A few other criteria helped to bolster the decision to run pump critters.
As earlier mentioned the Stark-black build is less tempermental than other suicide variants. The pump critters are effective for their cost, without drawback, and continually get better; basically the ideal of a solid creature. Stromgald Crusader is also a zombie helping mitigate Sarcomancy's drawback, and it can fly which is never bad when looking for a target to equip Jitte with, or to deal a final blow.

Admittedly this may be the wrong choice. Phyrexian Negator is a very good with the amount of permanents Stark-black tends to lay down. However, I've very much liked the switch over thus far.

Lake of the Dead - This was part of the reason I decided to run the pump critters. Lake of the Dead offers some amazing turn 3 plays such as laying and equipping Jitte + 2 more mana, or playing out your entire hand of critters and discard for a huge tempo swing. But more importantly, it helps make the pump knights and shade so much more effective late game. I considered briefly running Cabal Coffers, but ultimately chose Lake of the Dead because of the ridiculous turn 3 or 4 players Lake of the Dead allows. And who doesn't love the art.

... So that was alot to write. Feedback would be much appreciated. I also hope it's swayed some to new possibilites. Thoughts?

[Versus]

That looks good to me. It's pretty much what I wanna run except 8 of our creature slots differ. My playing field is unknown, but since I'm prepared for Goblins anyway I might as well assume Thresh is big and run Wretches main deck, at least 2.

edit: okay, Bill Stark. I wasn't sure who you were referencing.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Wow Galroth, when is the next time you are going to a tournie. I want to know details and how the deck runs now! Heh, ummm I can be innovative and creative too if I felt like it:cry: Seriously though, that is a very interesting list. Well since I am the resident Suicide Black newb in this thread right now, the only thing I am worried about is the 3 Cabal Therapy not being a 4 of. In play testing, did you find 3 to be the optimal number?

[Versus]

Galroth I just realized something, you have NO removal other than Jitte? I would take out two creatures and 1 other card for a few Smother/Edict, something.

LTC: This is my FINAL will-not-change-it-until-after-Sunday build-I-swear!

4 x Nantuko Shade
4 x Pyrexian Negator
4 x Carnophage
4 x Sarcomancy
2 x Withered Wretch
2 x Rotting Giant

4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Duress
4 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Cabal Therapy

4 x Umezawa's Jitte

4 x Dark Ritual
17 x Swamps

SB:

2 Pithing Needle <--Thats all I have right now.
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Null Rod
1 Withered Wretch

I'll let you know how it goes also. If it goes badly I would be quick to assume it was player error on my part (it's been a long time) and not the deck per se. We'll see...

[Tacosnape]

For what it's worth, I think Yixlid Jailer has reached the point of being decent now.

Yixlid Jailer will shut off Dread Return, which is strong against both Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast. It'll also shut off Ichorid, all the Dredgers, Crippling Fatigue, and so on. It can shut off opposing Cabal Therapies, it'll shut off Squee and Genesis against Survival, and against control it'll shut off obnoxious things like Life from the Loam and Eternal Dragon and whatnot.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Heh, I am sure you will do fine Versus. You know what though, your list really annoys me! I swear I was thinking the EXACT same list as you down to the smallest detail. And no I wasn't netdecking your build!!!!! Either I have to get out of your mind or vice versa. We are having some mental feedback. Like a secret psychic version of THE SOURCE lol. *Goes back to deck and changes mainboard to look different from Versus's* Ha! And this time I wont let you or ummm me read minds or something!

I like the idea of the jailer being sideboarded. I wouldn't mainboard it myself, because I use Therapies. Also, it is not a threat and dies to about everything. Is Breakfast becoming more popular all of the sudden or is it just my imagination?

[zulander]

I don't see how fetches won't help you out. I'm a little partial to them though.

[blackguard90]

I don't see how fetches won't help you out. I'm a little partial to them though.

He is only playing 2 giants. The fetches also are gay because they help tarmogoyf. I still run them because I play Red Death. Fetch life loss is USUALLY neglible, but just because of damn tarmogoyf, its best not to use it.

[blackguard90]

Galroth I just realized something, you have NO removal other than Jitte? I would take out two creatures and 1 other card for a few Smother/Edict, something.

LTC: This is my FINAL will-not-change-it-until-after-Sunday build-I-swear!

4 x Nantuko Shade
4 x Pyrexian Negator
4 x Carnophage
4 x Sarcomancy
2 x Withered Wretch
2 x Rotting Giant

4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Duress
4 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Cabal Therapy

4 x Umezawa's Jitte

4 x Dark Ritual
17 x Swamps

SB:

2 Pithing Needle <--Thats all I have right now.
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Null Rod
1 Withered Wretch

I'll let you know how it goes also. If it goes badly I would be quick to assume it was player error on my part (it's been a long time) and not the deck per se. We'll see...


4 jittes and 17 lands? cut a jitte for 1 extra land, I surmise that you will not be dropping jitte second turn often. Also, cut withered for another needle and null for dystopia. (4 dystopias is the bomb, and 3 needles stop other shanigans.)

[Versus]

zulander: I was going to play them just for deck thinning reasons, but it was pointed out to me that's not necessary.

blackguard:I've found that 18 land offers little difference from 17. I consistantly get 2 Swamps in my opening hand and never get (nothing significant) mana screwed.

The Needles I agree on, I just can't afford it right now that's the main reason I threw the Rod in there. I can see losing 1 Jitte though. While drawing duplicates has happened, it was nothing too crippling. Still. it could result in problems. Also I kinda figured they were a way to stop opponents forks, but other than Red Death and Angel/Faerie Stompy, they aren't even played. Well see, 4 of have been treating me great so far.

Right now it doesn't even matter. I can't even find a place to play out anyway. Everywhere I've called say "not enough interest to bother..."

[DURESSyou92]

Ive been playing around with Suicide black for a while and this is this list i came up with


Creatures:

x4 Nantuko Shade
x4 Hypnotic Specter
x2 Rotting giant
x2 Tombstalker
x1 Wrethed Anurid

Disruption:

x4 Duress
x4 Hymn to Tourach
x4 Sink Hole
x3 Extirpate


Equipments:
3x Umezawas Jitte

Removal:

3x ghastly demise
3x vendetta

Mana

2x polluted delta
4x bloodstained mire
10x swamps
3x wastelands
4x dark ritual

Sideboard:

4x leyline of the void
2x Negators
3x chalice of the void
4x E plauge
2x dystopia


Most of this is basic for suicide black, somethings are diffirent

TombstalkerA 5/5 flying for 2 seems pretty good. I never have trouble getting cards in the yard becouse of all the fetches, wastelands, cheap sorceries and instents. Some people say that it sometime gets in the way of rotting giant but i have never had this problem. He win games and weakens tarmogoyfs.

extirpate i think this card is great especially with all the other removal /disruption i play.

No Negators? I hate this card it has messed me countless times before so i put it SB. Tombstalker main and extripate main seems better to me]

leyline of the void this card is much better than tomods crypt. Its also free its ,permanent, its uncounterable and u can even hard cast it with dark ritual turn 2.

This deck beats breakfast/ichorid , most control, and has the potential do beat combo.


I NEED HELP WITH MY SIDEBOARD

[technogeek5000]

Umm yah negator messes you up sometimes but most of the time its awesome against everything. Unless you meta has a large presence of UGR thresh (not even burn stops this guy, hes my best tool agianst them because he finishes games by themselves... just wait on him till their hand is empty or you have lots of perms). Tombstalker usually comes down turn 4+ and this deck usually wants to beat the opponent by the 5th turn. Put atleast 3 of them in your deck(use the sb slots to up the dystopia count)

Your removal is subpar to what most of us here run. Play snuff out and smother (or edict, i play smothers). Snuff out is a free target removal spell so it will increase tempo.

Extirpate is bad in this deck. This deck wants to rip up your opponents hand and board and extirpate effects neither. Even if you get a opponents key card out then most likely they will just draw something else and beat you with it. I would suggest confidant in this slot.

Some other cards you might want to try

Carnophage: 2/2 for 1 mana. when you run these along side sarcomancy you easily overwhelm your opponent.

sarcomancy: same as carnophage but good with negator.

Chrome mox: can help you with speed. i dont run them myself but they can make your deck faster.

[DURESSyou92]

Your right about negators and the removal but how is extirpate bad its like a duress for their whole deck. Extirpate slows down alot of decks(specially scince decks these days relly on small combos/win conditions). i rather extirpate one of there win conditions so they have to wait to draw another wich will probalby give me time to beat them.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hmmm, I never really researched it, but what cards in Suicide Black are cycled out or banned in Extended. Is it possible to throw a extended list together that looks pretty much the same. Just wondering.

[KillemallCFH]

Hmmm, I never really researched it, but what cards in Suicide Black are cycled out or banned in Extended. Is it possible to throw a extended list together that looks pretty much the same. Just wondering.Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Negator, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, Dark Ritual, Pump Knights, Dystopia, Planar Void, Diabolic Edict, Snuff out, Vendetta and Wasteland are all not allowed in Extended (Extended is Invasion onwards and 7th onwards), and after Extended rotates, Duress, Rotting Giant, Nantuko Shade, Cabal Therapy, Wretched Anurid, and Engineered Plague will rotate out.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Negator, Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, Dark Ritual, Pump Knights, Dystopia, Planar Void, Diabolic Edict, Snuff out, Vendetta and Wasteland are all not allowed in Extended (Extended is Invasion onwards and 7th onwards), and after Extended rotates, Duress, Rotting Giant, Nantuko Shade, Cabal Therapy, Wretched Anurid, and Engineered Plague will rotate out.

Ouch...

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I would like to see an updated match-up analysis against all the relevant decks in the meta if anyone has it. Also, looking around different forums and boards Suicide Black gets either mild respect or none. How competitive can you make this archetype? I know piloting skill is a huge part, but does anyone think this deck itself is a serious contender? Also, what tier is it generally considered to be.

[zulander]

I think most people don't give it credit is because of Red Death. It plays the strongest cards in sui with reach, which IMO makes it much more viable than just sui.

[technogeek5000]

It depends on how well the deck is built. If you can get the numbers and choices right then the deck can be Tier 1.5 or better (maybe not tier 1 but something like tier 1.25).

I have been putting alot of testing into this deck and i will give a matchup analysis later today or tommorow.

[Galroth]

I'd like to add my own voice to technogeek's experience here. His analysis of what to board in, the reasoning, and the general result is spot on.

Techno, if you have any experience with regard to the Landstill matchup, I'd like to know that also. I have very little in my meta. I imagine the maindeck is best suited to fight landstill, but I really have not clue how hard the MU is (especially given how many variations of landstill are running around).

It would also be sweet to see the win percentages you're getting off most of those games. I know hardly anyone keeps record of that kind of stuff unless they're actively trying to; but even an estimate would be nice.

[technogeek5000]

Im as of right now 9-3 for goblins, 6-5 for thresh, 3-0 for fast combo, 1-2 for solidarity, and 2-15 against ichorid(its freakin hard to win this). Landstill i havent recorded but i think im close to even. ill edit the first post in a little bit for the landstill matchup.

[Tacosnape]

Suicide Black will rotate out.

Fixed.

Techno, what's your current maindeck list? I can't find it.

For what it's worth, I completely agree with Planar Void in this deck's sideboard, in quantities of four. It's incredibly hot. Shuts down several combo decks, keeps Tarmogoyf in check, hurts Survival, hurts Threshold, hurts some Landstill variants. Beautiful card.

Yixlid Jailer isn't bad either with all the freaking Loam-packing decks and Dread Return floating around.

[Galroth]

How necesarry is removal?

This is bound to bring up some controversial discussion.

I honestly don't know how much removal is needed in sui-black builds. If against combo or control, the removal is too often just a dead card. Of course, many of these MU's are overwhelmingly in sui-black's favor, so it's not as if that really matters.

What about against aggro-control and aggro? Sometimes removal is invaluable. Alot of the time I feel like that slots devoted to removal would be better suited as a threat. If you're on the beatdown does it matter if you have removal in hand, generally not. But there are times when a single spot removal spell sways one from the defensive side, to suddenly beating down the opponent. Maybe it's even more important than it once was due to a particularly troublesome green monster.

Quite honestly, as some have noted; I've been cutting the majority of removal in my sui-black builds. In my Stark-black build w/ the 1cc zombies, I run Jitte... it's a must. In my other build, I maindeck Plague Spitter which deals with most weenies, and if that isn't enough usually the boarded in Engineered Plague will be. I've felt the removal was weak and I don't have enough room to devote enough slots to rely on its use in a game.

So back to my question to everyone. I don't want to know what removal you're running (Snuff Out, Smother, Edicts... not interested). Instead, how many slots are you devoting maindeck to spot removal? And how important are these slots? Are they weaker cards in the deck; or are they a must keep portion? Oh... and your reasoning of course?

[Citrus-God]

// Sympathy for the Devil, the answer to Goyf...
// Mana 25
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp


// Creatures 15
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 20
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate/3 Vindicate, 1 Swamp


// Sideboard 15
4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
3 Yilix Jailer
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Swamp/Vindicate


Red Death, with a slightly higher curve. Jotun Grunts are simply amazing against Tarmogoyf, and the deck still plays the same way, somewhat. Swords to Plowshares and Vindicate are both solid cards to answer Goyf, as well has more disruption to strain the opponent's mana base. Only difference in this deck is that Vindicate either kills a land and buys you Tempo, or it's an answer. IMO, much better than Chain Lightning and worth the cost of 3 mana.

[technogeek5000]

@Taco: Here is my current maindeck list. As of right now im looking for a spot to put the third jitte in. I dont want to take a creature out because that would bring my creature count down to a shaky level. i was thinking a creature removal but i havent decided which.

17 swamps
3 wasteland

4 Dark confidant
4 Hippie
4 Carnophage
3 Sarcomancy
3 Gator

4 hymn
3 Duress
3 Snuff out
3 smother
3 sinkhole
2 Jitte

4 dark ritual

So to answer galroths question i have currently 8 spots for creature removal. Ever since goyf was printed i believe that spot removal has become more and more important. In a meta full of thresh and goyf variants sui blacks removal makes it as viable or even more so then red death because our removal isnt dead if we cant get a certain color. I would say in power level they are the same as hymns and land destruction. Hymn takes 2 random cards and on average 1 card that they need and sinkhole/waste takes their lands which makes a attack on their tempo. Creature removal operates the same way taking one imperative card away and disrupting a turn of the opponents developement.

Hope that answers your question.

[Versus]

I have 4 devoted slots for removal (Edict) and Jitte as well. Not to mention the abilty to (hopefully) remove duplicate Goyfs via Cabal Therapy. If Thresh were to end up being so huge as to dominate every tournament I would probably SB in additional removal in form of Smother.

[Tacosnape]

How necesarry is removal?

See, this is where you get into the fundamental flaw in the strategy of Suicide Black, and why Threshold is always going to be a better deck.

Threshold gets to use Force of Will, Daze, Spell Snare, and all its disruption suite to also help control creatures.

Sui Black doesn't. We get Hymn to do that, and maybe Therapy or Unmask if we run it. Duress doesn't cut it. Ostracize might, especially with Cephalid Breakfast and Tarmogoyf decks on the rise, but there's too many decks even Ostracize blows against. But the fact is, we have to get our disruption in immediately, because we can't stop anything an opponent topdecks.

I don't think Removal should, in theory, be necessary beyond a certain extent. I think the right path to go with Suicide Black is with an incredibly fast opening that parlays into something. Stark Black could hit your hand with Unmask while simultaneously setting up a turn two Jitte/Swing. Red Death, before Tarmogoyf, could have so many Negators and other fatties staring down your throat that you couldn't recover in time. Paint it Black, pre-Flash, ran Hatred instead of removal, backed up by Dark Ritual/Chrome Mox and 14 discard spells to make sure you couldn't respond effectively.

I think the correct removal spell, without any splash, is Jitte. Everything else is too narrow as far as I'm concerned. We also get additional removal in the board, in the forms of Engineered Plague and Dystopia.

Our best bet to dealing with Tarmogoyf is to either knock him out of hand, take him on with a giant Nantuko Shade, or sideboard like crazy against him. Or, if you want to run a splash, pack a quad of Spectral Lynx and Swords to Plowshares.

[Versus]

I completely agree with your stance on Jitte, but 4 more removal spells in a pinch seems perfectly justified in my opinion.

My whole deck consists of creatures and disruption. Adding more creatures seems redundant and the only disruption left are the likes of Unmask, Funeral Charm, and Stupor which would be viewed as uneccesary and underpowered. Unless you're adding more disruption or more creatures, what else could you add other than Bob (I don't even class him in with creatures) and LD? Then you're going back to MBC and the dynamic changes completely.

I'd like to have a little security just in case a fatty drops on the other saide of the table or I'm playing another agrro deck. Disruption won't catch them all.

[technogeek5000]

See, this is where you get into the fundamental flaw in the strategy of Suicide Black, and why Threshold is always going to be a better deck.

Threshold gets to use Force of Will, Daze, Spell Snare, and all its disruption suite to also help control creatures.

Sui Black doesn't. We get Hymn to do that, and maybe Therapy or Unmask if we run it. Duress doesn't cut it. Ostracize might, especially with Cephalid Breakfast and Tarmogoyf decks on the rise, but there's too many decks even Ostracize blows against. But the fact is, we have to get our disruption in immediately, because we can't stop anything an opponent topdecks.


Well its all about the meta game realy. If thresh is unpopular in the meta and hate is lacking then thresh would be stronger then sui black. But on the other hand, if thresh has presence in your meta game then i believe that sui black would be a stronger choice. Sui blacks strengths lie in its amazing openings and a powerful sideboard. Sui black has dystopia and planar void against threshold which makes the matchup between them lopsided. Yes thresh has counters but Sui black is filled to the top with must counter cards. If they use there counters to stop your hate then they wont have any left for your threats and disruption.

[blackguard90]

How necesarry is removal?

This is bound to bring up some controversial discussion.

I honestly don't know how much removal is needed in sui-black builds. If against combo or control, the removal is too often just a dead card. Of course, many of these MU's are overwhelmingly in sui-black's favor, so it's not as if that really matters.

What about against aggro-control and aggro? Sometimes removal is invaluable. Alot of the time I feel like that slots devoted to removal would be better suited as a threat. If you're on the beatdown does it matter if you have removal in hand, generally not. But there are times when a single spot removal spell sways one from the defensive side, to suddenly beating down the opponent. Maybe it's even more important than it once was due to a particularly troublesome green monster.

Quite honestly, as some have noted; I've been cutting the majority of removal in my sui-black builds. In my Stark-black build w/ the 1cc zombies, I run Jitte... it's a must. In my other build, I maindeck Plague Spitter which deals with most weenies, and if that isn't enough usually the boarded in Engineered Plague will be. I've felt the removal was weak and I don't have enough room to devote enough slots to rely on its use in a game.

So back to my question to everyone. I don't want to know what removal you're running (Snuff Out, Smother, Edicts... not interested). Instead, how many slots are you devoting maindeck to spot removal? And how important are these slots? Are they weaker cards in the deck; or are they a must keep portion? Oh... and your reasoning of course?

removal helps gator a lot. As big as he is, if they keep on blocking, you won't be in a good situation.

As for the threshold comment, unless black get some better cards, other than funeral charm, you are always going to have a few games where you lose to topdeck. Funeral charm is a good card, but its effects are not good enough to be Maindecked. In fact, its not even sideboarded. The card is situational, but good in many situations. It kills 1 toughness people, it pump for 2, and it makes your creature unblockable to people playing swamps.

As for the comment about tier, Red Death is tier 1.5 and sui is 2. Suicide's problem is definately reach, because top decked creatures can ruin your day. Even as solid as red death is, I find that many times it depends on if I draw answers or burn. That is shown more clearly with sui. Piloting sui isn't hard and isn't easy, but I think playing sui has to do with luck a little more than playing thresh, as thresh is amazingly consistent, except some occasional mana screw by opposing LD.

[Versus]

I don't want to clog up the thread with OT decklists, but bear with me. I'm just making an example and I want to be specific.

Maybe someone could explain something to me? Why can't we just make the tiniest splash just to include a single card and expand the SB without becoming Deadguy, Green/Red Death? What harm would come and how could the deck be any worse if white was splashed JUST to play STP?

Here's another for instance, using green...

8 1cc Zombies
4 Shades
4 Negator
4 Goyf

4 Hymn
4 Duress
3 Removal
3 Rancor

3 Jitte

4 Ritual

4 Bayou
8 Fetch
7 Swamp


that's basically my deck with the -2 Giants, -2 Wretch, +4 Goyf and -3 Therapy for +3 Rancor. I replaced 8 cards here, but both single G. I only got rid of the Therapy b/c of the disynergy with Goyf, but either way in or out I don't see how it would break the deck?

Gator and Goyf and discard go well together. Opponent blocks, sac the Sarcomancy. Free permanent and now you have an enchantment in the yard and Goyf gets bigger. Need to lose another, sac the Rancor and you get it right back. This to me doesn't seem any less viable. It would be no slower. You can still Ritual out whatever you could turn 1, then drop a Goyf turn 2 and swing with a Trampling Goyf turn 3. Rancored Goyf welding a Jitte in his (does he have hands?) vines and things should interesting.

Besides all that you expand the SB to include things like Krosan Grip or others.

I'm sure I'm missing something and not nearly as experienced in the game (especially todays game), so forgive for sounding stupid.

[technogeek5000]

I have considered splashing white for just grunt and stp alone many times. I havent realy thought about it for green but it would seem to make sense. Sui blacks creatures are large enough especially if you add goyf so i dont know if i would run rancor. Also what enchantments pose a threat to this deck that would make you include grip. The only ones that i can think of are taken care of by dystopia.

[Versus]

I was just making an example of giving the deck some reach. Krosan Grip was the first thing that came to mind.

I only brought up Rancor because a 7/6 trampling Goyf is just plain scary. There's no chump blocking against similar aggro matchups, it's just game. It has good synergy with Gator as well.

I'm the first person to admit being attached to Sui and it being mono colored, but if the deck is just going to fall flat then we need to adapt. If more reach or the all powerful Goyf can do that, then so be it.

I've also been thinking of Bgr deck. I wanna call it Black Christmas...

[thefreakaccident]

I was just making an example of giving the deck some reach. Krosan Grip was the first thing that came to mind.

I only brought up Rancor because a 7/6 trampling Goyf is just plain scary. There's no chump blocking against similar aggro matchups, it's just game. It has good synergy with Gator as well.

I'm the first person to admit being attached to Sui and it being mono colored, but if the deck is just going to fall flat then we need to adapt. If more reach or the all powerful Goyf can do that, then so be it.

I've also been thinking of Bgr deck. I wanna call it Black Christmas...

black christmas was already thought of by Hanni, it is Brg and everything... he just doesn't run the sui creatures.

[Versus]

Dammit! How about Rotten Peppers? No, that's worse than Soggy Pickles. I'll have to think on it a while.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

As for the comment about tier, Red Death is tier 1.5 and sui is 2. Suicide's problem is definately reach, because top decked creatures can ruin your day. Even as solid as red death is, I find that many times it depends on if I draw answers or burn. That is shown more clearly with sui. Piloting sui isn't hard and isn't easy, but I think playing sui has to do with luck a little more than playing thresh, as thresh is amazingly consistent, except some occasional mana screw by opposing LD.

Well, it is definitely important to be aware of how strong the archetype you are playing is. But I have Faith! Well, that at least maybe Sui can become tier 1.5. Heh, not buying dual lands and sac lands is a breath of fresh air! Still, I think I am glad that I made the switch over from Madness. Sui Black is a whole lot of fun and I think I will keep it for a while.

Thanks for the matchup analysis Techno. Its a shame that the Ichorid is so one-sided. There must be a way!

[Galroth]

At one point I boarded both Leyline of the Void and Serum Powder because of Ichorid and other particularly poor combo matchups. Then I realized how ridiculous I was considering these types of decks rarely account for even a tenth of the field. So now I run just Planar Void, which is almost as effective.

I've seen alot of the splashes to suicide black, and I think you can't go just halfway with them. If you're going to splash for rancor and goyf, why not berserk also? It's just 2-3 more slots, and card outright steals games. It's not as if it carries 'gg' in its casting cost right there. And with those cards you have a basic build of Green Death. If you're going to sully your manabase with anything but basic swamp :P you may as well run all the best stuff the color has to offer.

I personally think that Red Death and Suicide Black are on the same tier if built properly. There's just alot of scrub sui-black builds running around that give sui-black a bad name. Or maybe I'm just better than everyone else (that would be a joke, I actually kinda suck; I'm a better deck-builder and theoritician than player).

Acceleration helps the Ichorid MU out a little. If you're running Chrome Mox in addition to Dark Ritual I don't think it's as poor (that's not to say it's good) - higher chance for your nuts hand to go nuts, also your turn 2 disruption is now turn 1 which helps... sometimes.

[Versus]

That makes perfect sense. Once you make the splash you might as well take full advantage of it. Unfortunately for me (this used to be trueanyway) I'm a better player than deckbuilder. Now I just suck at both :laugh:

On a similar note, what is really the practice for including Fetches? I've noticed on Red Death they use 7/8, but Pikula only uses 4. I can tell you this. I play tested my Sui last night with Rancors and Goyfs. Granted 8 games tells very little, but of the games I lost I lost because Fetches combined with Carnophage put me down within Bolt range a turn earlier than normal.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

On a similar note, what is really the practice for including Fetches? I've noticed on Red Death they use 7/8, but Pikula only uses 4. I can tell you this. I play tested my Sui last night with Rancors and Goyfs. Granted 8 games tells very little, but of the games I lost I lost because Fetches combined with Carnophage put me down within Bolt range a turn earlier than normal.

I think 8 is the average number. Maybe that has changed with the introduction of Tarmy's... Also, I believe Red Death usually does not have Sarcomancy or Carnophage. Heh if you have 8 sac land and a nice dual land package, you could run BRG for Kird apes as a nice cheap drop. Edit note: Oops, looks like I am miles slow with this one. Sorry Versus!

Does anyone have suggestions for some sideboard cards that help the burn matchup? I might dedicate 3 slots for it, because Burn is played in my area.

[Brehn]

Get Jitte online and you win. If you really fear Burn that much, play Chalice of the Void @1. Also helps vs Combo and Loam sometimes.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well, most of my deck pieces have come in and I finally got some play time. Well, I am over my Negator paranoia and just love it. I don't run confidants, so its nice to have things I don't mind top decking. I run all the little zombies, so there are games where I top decked the Negator and that was it. The Hypnotic Specter is a card that I am starting to have doubts with. I really never want to top deck it, and usually third turn you would rather drop something else. To me, its only saving grace is how beautiful a turn one dark ritual into Hyppie can be. There it shines, because its effect actually matters. I might switch out into using a pump knight or Giant/Annurid, but I have a hard time doing so. Its just that, well Hypnotic Specter is such a cool card. Its a bit childish to keep a card in your deck merely due to its cool factor, but I think I am guilty of that...

[technogeek5000]

The situation you described for hippie is exclusive to aggro only. Against control, prison, and combo hippie is one of (if not) the best cards in your whole deck.

Edit: I have been messing around with white death and i am inlove with it. I splash for stp and grunt and the deck just seems so much more powered then red death. White death's removal hits goyf which is extremely crucial in a goyf infested meta. Here is the list i have been using. If i can accumulate the fetches in time then i will play this at the next tourney i attend(already own 5 scrublands).

6 Swamps
7 fetches
4 wasteland
4 Scrubland

4 Hippie
4 Dark confidant
4 Zombies (havent decided which... I might just go 2 and 2)
3 Negator
3 Jotun grunt

4 Hymn to tourach
4 STP
3 Duress
3 Sinkhole
3 Ummewaza's jitte (still need to buy the third, two jittes makes techno a saaaaaaad panda)

And for my precious sideboard:
4 E plauge
4 Planar void
3 Dystopia
3 Null rod (looking to take these out for less narrow combo hate, i just dont want to replace them with therapy or chalice)
1 duress

If your looking for a sui deck that beats ichorid and UGR thresh then this is it. All forms of threshold is just so one sided its amazing. This list is equipped with many more tools to deal with both decks like the grunt which is pretty ridic in this list. Also we have better removal so you can get rid of the ichorids and everything else that bothers you. Jotun grunt is also great against all forms of aggro and all forms of control, plus its good against stax.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

The situation you described for hippie is exclusive to aggro only. Against control, prison, and combo hippie is one of (if not) the best cards in your whole deck.

True, very true. Man, I think its time for me to start making some car drives to get to where the descent meta is at.

This is my current list. The Hyppies, Gators, and Jitte are making the curve a bit high with only 18 swamps. Still it usually works, but I wonder I should fit one more in there. The Cabal Therapies have been working wonders as preemptive removal, and with Edict and Jitte I think my removal bases are adequately covered. Some tips would be greatly appreciated.

Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Gators
4 Hyppies
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomonacy

Removal
4 Umezawa's jitte
3 Diabolic Edict

Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Cabal Therapy

Mana
4 Dark Ritual
18 Swamps

SB

4 Dystopia
4 EP
4 Planar Void
3 Pithing Needle

[technogeek5000]

Edicts are unfortunately terrible. Sui black has so much more options and edict is close to the bottom of the list. Snuff out, and smother are great removal cards and ghastly demises are decent to.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hmmm, yeah I think smother would be much better. Edict is only better against things like Mongoose and really does not matter. I am sure if my opponent had a Mongoose and a Goyf out, he would sac the Mongoose...So for my list -3 Edict, +3 Smother.

Actually, I would love to get another smother in Mainboard. Any suggestions? I am thinking of taking out a Carnophage.

Hmmmm, looking at your list techno does something in my soul. I came to what I thought was the promise land. I came into Suicide Black thinking it is a pretty viable deck that is mono and needs no Dual/Sac lands. But here is Mr. Red Death and now omg that is one sexy looking Bw list that requires the very same Dual/Sac lands I hate! If anyone pities this fool, throw me some Duals!

[technogeek5000]

Hmmmm, looking at your list techno does something in my soul. I came to what I thought was the promise land. I came into Suicide Black thinking it is a pretty viable deck that is mono and needs no Dual/Sac lands. But here is Mr. Red Death and now omg that is one sexy looking Bw list that requires the very same Dual/Sac lands I hate!

Thank you for the kind words. I think you will find out that if you try confidant over shade you wont be disappointed. Also confidant finds you lands if your worried about your curve. And yah the carnophage is the prime slot in your list if you want to bump the smother to 4.


If anyone pities this fool, throw me some Duals!

BTW, I have 5 scrublands but my throwing arm isnt that good:wink:

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Thank you for the kind words. I think you will find out that if you try confidant over shade you wont be disappointed. Also confidant finds you lands if your worried about your curve. And yah the carnophage is the prime slot in your list if you want to bump the smother to 4.


BTW, I have 5 scrublands but my throwing arm isnt that good:wink:


Woah, exchanging Confidant over Shade is unexpected. Shade seems to me to be the best creature sui Black has! Hmmm, I just noticed you were not using him in your Bw deck. I was considering having Confidant over Hyppie, and in your deck you have the Grunt for some extra muscle. I am not sure if monoblack sui can pull it off without the Shades. I am definitely interested to hear your thoughts on this though. I have been wondering about good ole confidant for awhile. The point about getting that sideboard hate against Threshold faster really hit home.

Heh, dont worry you can kick the Duals to me too:cool:

[THEchubbymuffin]

i was just wondering this, but since jitte is the main life source, wouldn't a simple card like "consume spirit" be a good card. maybe like a 2 of. it also creates another possible win condition. yes or no?

[technogeek5000]

Life is not important to this deck. This deck runs zombies, confidants, and for me i run fetches. All these cards sacrifice life to get a better card out of the deal. Consume spirit is horrinly slow and weak. This deck normally doesnt use jitte to gain life but to kill opposing creatures and to speed up the kill.

Edit:@Teacup: I have voiced my opinion on confidant over shade plenty of times. here is just bits and pieces of some of the stuff i have written.


I cut shades a while back and it has proven entirely beneficial. A majority of the time it would be sub optimal compared to confidant, zombies, or hippie because i could cast those and play disruption. The times where shade was good it would not have been any better then a negator (which is whati replaced them for) because negator smashes face and doesnt eat my mana so i can attack and play more creatures/ disruption.


(my build focuses on the early and mid game and to many times this guy was a vanilla 2/1 for me).


If you go into late game drawing 2 cards every turn will always give you the tools you need to swing the tide of the game. Also he is a beater.


Also just because sui black wants a good early game
doesnt mean you shouldnt run confidant or jitte. When you go into the mid and late game which this deck often does then going into topdeck mode wont win you games.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Some good points techno, but Shade is just Shade. He shines in mid to late game, although he does not draw you any cards. Hyppie shines early game and rarely in mid. However, late game Hyppie usually is not as relevant. I mean, control and prision are not enemy number 1 anymore right? Its all about Threshold, Gobs, and the various combo decks. Hyppie is too slow to really mess up a lot of the combo out there anyway barring a turn one ritual into Hyppie. Furthermore, I think Confidant and Shade work beautifully together. Sure, Hyppie cements your card advantage with Bob but all that extra land you are going to be drawing with Bob will make Shade a house. So if the goal is a more balanced mid to late game, Shade has the edge. The deck will still have explosive openings, but now will have this big mofo swinging harder than Tarmy. Thats Sui's answer to Tarmy NO.2. Also, at least in my list I have lots of hand disruption as is. It could be different for you, because you are using Sinkholes (prolly the better choice) and I use Cabal Therapy. So at least for me, I already am hitting the opponents hand pretty hard. Also, both Hyppie and Confidant are lightning rods. Shade is too in a lesser degree, but at least when you are sitting at 5 mana (not unimaginable with an online Bob) Shade is not getting bolted so easy when you put him into play. Both Hyppie and Bob can be simply bolted first turn after you ritual them out, but at least with Bob you can duress first then play him. Same with Shade, although admittedly you probably don't want to ritual out a shade to begin with. These points probably have been made before, but this thread is moving a bit slow anyway :tongue:.

For my Bob version, -4 Hyppie -1 Carnophage, +4 Bob +1 Therapy. I love that I can sac my Bob when he is putting too much hurt on me with the Therapy.

BTW, when are you going to make a primer and topic for your White Death deck?

[technogeek5000]

I think youll find that negator (and grunt if you take my white build) is all the muscle youll need. Like i said, just try Bob in place of shade and you wont be disapointed. If you dont like them then dont run them... but as for me i will continue use Bob.

Oh and its official, white death has performed so fucking insane for me i will be running it at 4x U sea at hadley... maybe this time ill take 1st instead of second.

[Versus]

Techo: You're running Zombies, Fetches, AND Confidant all at once? Obviously from your last comment it's preforming great for you, but that really is suicide.

I play tested a Suicide Green deck last week and found myself sitting at 10 life by the beginning of turn 4 on more than one occasion. Granted we don't plan on sticking around that long, but it happens. You're not finding that to be an issue?

Like I said I wasn't happy with my results, but then again I was playing against a heavy burn deck that bypassed my creatures entirely and threw everything right at my head. My own Carnophages and Confidant finished their job.

[technogeek5000]

Well how many jittes do you run. I run three so if im ever low on life I just remove a counter or two to bring me to a safe range. Also if its completely nessecary (like lethal damage on the stack) you can stp one of your own creatures. Using this trick with gators and ilk (like put damage on the stack with a attacking gator then stp it) plus jittes i have never had a issue of losing life from my own cards.

Edit: I just read what you said at the end of your post tea cup and i Loled. I dont think that my list is different enough from deadguy ale to warrant a new topic. All i did was take the weakest cards out of sui and replace them with the strongest white cards. Thanks for the kind words but I dont see me writing a topic for my white splash.

Edit 2: Yah, 1 burn deck isnt realy a meta. I suggest getting MWS if you want to test against something close to a metagame. If you ignore the jank burn variants, elf decks, and random suckiness you can actually get some results in.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Edit: I dont think that my list is different enough from deadguy ale to warrant a new topic.

Hmmm, I don't know about that. Deadguy ale is not Sui black with a white splash. If Green Death has its own topic, why not White Death?

If I find that Bob is better in my deck than the Shade, I will be slightly annoyed. Those Shades were pretty pricey!

[technogeek5000]

I think i will be changing around my sideboard. Null rod is becoming to narrow with the rise of cephalid breakfast deck. When i first put them in my sideboard TES, belcher, and Iggy pop were the only worthwhile combo decks to play which null rod trumps. Also this was close to the time when AFOWinity was introduced to the format (I have no idea why its not played at all. It has better combo matchup then Vial affinity can ever have and chalice at 1 randomly fucks over lots of decks) so I reasoned that null rod would be the least narrow hate piece in my deck. Now times have changed and storm combo is on the decline while breakfast decks are putting multiple people in the top 8 of all the large tournaments nowadays. This makes null rod alot weaker and and since affinity has close to zero presence in the meta game it makes it even worse. I have turned my head away from therapy for to long i suppose so i will be tryin it out in my SB. Therapy is good against all types of combo not just storm, and it is extremely effective against random control decks. It also helps that i own a playset of cabal therapies.

So if all goes well with the testing I will make the following changes:
-3 null rod
+3 therapy

Which will give me a sideboard of
4 Plauges
4 voids
3 dystopias
3 therapies
1 duress

[LordEvilTeaCup]

It looks pretty good Techno. Isn't Duress good enough to have 4 mainboarded? I think it is really only dead against Goblins. Also, the 4/3 split with Therapy has been working great for me.

[technogeek5000]

Duress isnt good against aggro control in general. You can take out a piece of hate... woopdidoo. Occasionally this card is good takin out important cards but I always find that I cast all my other spells first before this just because there more relevant to the gamestate. Im not discrediting it because its good against the rest of the field, but the fact that against gobbos its actually less relevant then creature removal against Combo (im not even including breakfast in this... just combo like solidarity, TES, iggy pop, and belcher) is a big turnoff.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Duress isnt good against aggro control in general. You can take out a piece of hate... woopdidoo. Occasionally this card is good takin out important cards but I always find that I cast all my other spells first before this just because there more relevant to the gamestate. Im not discrediting it because its good against the rest of the field, but the fact that against gobbos its actually less relevant then creature removal against Combo (im not even including breakfast in this... just combo like solidarity, TES, iggy pop, and belcher) is a big turnoff.

Hmmmm, I wonder if I should take out a duress for a smother then. For me, 4 makes more sense due to me using the Therapies. However, I decided against taking out a carnophage for a smother. I might give 3 duress a try myself.

BTW, does your White Death deck lose any MU prowess against any deck?

[Galroth]

At the risk of alienating forever Technogeek ('cause we never seem to agree on the debateable stuff in sui-black... I'm pretty sure are experiences with the deck differ quite a bit) I don't think cutting a Duress is a good idea. Duress is probably your best tool against combo. If for just this one reason I wouldn't cut it to less than a full playset. It's also good against control, and usually not bad against aggro-control and aggro. Goblins is really the only matchup where I find myself siding it out, and I *hear* Gobbos is on the decline.

I wouldn't cut Duress for the life of me.

[technogeek5000]

Tea cup: About the white death thing... ill go over all the MU's and how the white splash effects them.

Gobs: The only problem that the splash creates is that jotun grunt comes down a turn later which is bad for lackey, but with this trade you get removal that doesnt cost you anylife... preserving your long game. Also the fact that grunt is huge makes up for him coming down a turn later then sarcmancy. Oh and waste targets but that usually doesnt matter here.
Goblins MU: Stays the same

Thresh: This is where the splash realy shines. Jotun grunt completely wrecks there deck. Not only does it prevevnt them from getting threshold and making goyf a walking giant but it hits for 4 while doing it. The white splashes removal doesnt gain or lose anything.
Thresh MU: Improved/greatly improved

Cephalid breakfast: If they plan on going the goyf route to finish you off then grunt will easily take them down. If they dont then you still have instant speed removal for the ghoul.
Cephalid breakfast MU: Slightly improved

Storm combo (belcher, TES, etc...): Grunt usualy only makes the kill faster here so if there in top deck mode it helps. Also if its a deck like iggy pop with a strong reliance on the grave then grunt can randomly screw them over.Also in a pinch if they have you with lethal damage you can stp your own guy to gain life.
Storm combo MU: Very slightly increased

Solidarity: They do the same exact thing as their replacements did
Solidarity MU: Stays the same

Stax: Swords to plowshares normally does the same thing as its replacement here. On the off chance that they run manlands (stp stops them from recurring) or there playing black stax (some people play it... i know that braids is run) then stp functions better then its replacement. Jotun grunt on the other hand, is pretty nasty. This guy stops your opponents lands from recurring so he cant repeatadly waste you or smokestack your board and he puts pressure on the opponent. The only problem that the splash creates is that you run wasteland targets. If you dont have any white cards in your hand then just fetch for swamps and you should be fine.
Stax MU: Slightly improved

Landstill: For the amount of landstill piles that run crucible, the white splash makes this matchup better. Swords rfg effect keeps their manlands out of commision permanently and grunt will get rid of anylands thats in the grave so they cant recur them. If they dont run crucible then all the splash does is put more pressure on the opponent. The trade for this is wasteland targets.
Landstill MU: Stays the same/slightly improved

To answer your question: maybe a little but the tradeoff should be worth it. Dont get me wrong, a wasteland at the developing stages can be deadly, but if you run confidant then it shouldnt be a problem. But waste targets arent as crucial as wrecking goyf which is run in neraly every deck nowadays. If you think my analysis of the white splash is off then just say so. Im open to criticism.

Galroth: Alienate me, im not so sure. I run 3 duress because where i normally play is overflowed with gobbos and aggro control. Duress is relatively weak against aggro control so running a playset of a card thats weak against 50% of the field doesnt seem like a sound plan to me. If it suits your meta then by all means run 4.

[Versus]

I'm really liking the Sui White build techno. I think mono-black just isnt cutting it.

Speaking of white, I found ONE person at the shop I go to who made a Legacy deck and wouldn't you know it, White Weenie. Even with a 1st turn double Rit/Double Hymn he outraced me! I know that NO ONE plays that deck in the format, but my Sui hopes are slowly getting dashed. The only two decks I've played against are Boros and mono-white and I just can't hold up. They keep pace with me early game and I just run out of steam. I couldn't even get a Jitte online as both decks pack Disenchant.

[Sigar]

Post a list Versus. That way it's easier to help you.

[Versus]

Pretty basic flat out Aggro-Sui

17 Swamp
4 Rit

4 Gators/Shades/Carnophage/Sarcomancy
2 Giants/Wretches

4 Duress
4 Hymn
3 Therapy

4 Smother
4 Jitte

We were just playing casual so I didn't SB. Not that Plagues, Graveyard hate, or Needles were gonna help out that match anyway. I guess the point is WW isn't played, so why sweat it, but if a deck that isn't played can dispatch me so easily, what about decks that are?

Hey, it could be me. It's been a long while since I played. Maybe I'm piloting badly...

[technogeek5000]

Id just like to post some of my findings as I have been searching other threads.

GOBLINS ARE SPLASHING BLACK FOR SNUFF OUT!!! This must mean god is real. This makes the MU so many times easier for this deck. They trade their good enchantment hate for removal that doesnt affect our deck (except grunt if you splash white but still is remarkable) If goblins ever makes a comeback then i believe that this deck will have gone past the established decks phase.

Also thanks for all the feedback on White death. Ill be playing it at hadley next week. I will post my results for the deck.

[from Cairo]

4 Zombies (havent decided which... I might just go 2 and 2)


Not a huge help, but I would go with Carnophage probably if you're indifferent about which of the two you use. Enchantments are among the lesser played card types in the format, and with opposing Tarmogoyfs there seems like no reason to add another card type to the main deck that could potentially make it to the GY. It's probably not going to come up very much, but a random Duress could hit, or it could get Counterbalanced or something, just seems like of the two cards if they are comparable enough in play, Carnophage is less of a liability in the graveyard.

[Versus]

You know what? I'm an asshole. I just need to get out and play decks that are represented in the current meta before I decide a deck isn't viable and think I know what I'm talking about.

Here's the deck I built for my wife. I think I'm beating myself up for no reason here. I mean how could I ever beat this consistantly? Even with Edict in place of Smother I'm a goner. If she gets a Jitte equipped knight online It's over. I play Negators early, it's over. Pro-white, flyers, shadow, and massive amounts of removal/burn/pump.

4 White Knight
2 Soltari Monk
2 Savannah Lions
4 Fanatics
3 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Skyknight Legionnaire

4 Incinerate
4 Bolt
4 Lightning Helix

4 STP
4 Crusade

3 Jitte

4 Mire
3 Heath
7 Plains
4 Plateau

And that's not even a good Boros deck! I just used cards I had onhand It should have Grunts and maybe more burn in the way of Chain Lightnings.

So lemme just turn that long ass post into a question. What COULD Sui do to improve this kind of match up post board? Besides getting the pro-white pump Knights, I don't see what could trump it. Are Boros decks even still played?

[Versus]

Not a huge help, but I would go with Carnophage probably if you're indifferent about which of the two you use. Enchantments are among the lesser played card types in the format, and with opposing Tarmogoyfs there seems like no reason to add another card type to the main deck that could potentially make it to the GY. It's probably not going to come up very much, but a random Duress could hit, or it could get Counterbalanced or something, just seems like of the two cards if they are comparable enough in play, Carnophage is less of a liability in the graveyard.

Or if he sacks it to a Negator. Definitely go Carnophage.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Heh, Black has tools if necessary to deal with white weenie. Black has answers to pretty much anything, but unfortunately our sideboard is not infinite. Massacre should put the hurt on! There are also pro-white dorks you could throw in. I feel your pain though Versus. Its the same in my area. Why can't people be civilized and understand our decks are for the larger meta:wink:

With that said, time for me to take a peak at the Goblin Thread...

[Barook]

What COULD Sui do to improve this kind of match up post board?

I laughed - and Dystopia joined the party.

Seriously, is that question ironic? Besides, there's also Virtue's Ruin (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/po/39.jpg) if WW is such a big problem. :rolleyes:

[technogeek5000]

Yah if you want to beat that boros list versus then run dystopia. All its perms are white except for fanatic so that should help you there.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Not very exciting news, but I was thinking of 4 Snuff Outs MD in my build. I feel silly for not using this earlier. Black is not so popular where I have to fear it being a dead card. I was thinking SBing my Cabal Therapies (where it prolly should always be) and taking out one Hypnotic Specter. Or perhaps since I will have 4 Snuff 3 Smother, I should throw a Jitte in the SB. Any thoughts?

[Zilla]

Or if he sacks it to a Negator. Definitely go Carnophage.
If you're running Negator then Sarcomancy is probably better. It gives you 2 permanents to sac (the token and the enchantment), where Carnophage only gives you one. Plus, Carnophage is basically guaranteed to be doing you damage every turn. Sarcomancy isn't. I wouldn't make the choice not to run a better card just out of fear of Tarmogoyf.



Besides, there's also Virtue's Ruin (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/po/39.jpg) if WW is such a big problem.
Or Massacre, for that matter. Free is good. It'll kill off your zombies, but you'll have the mana to save your Shades and Negator could care less.

[Barook]

Or Massacre, for that matter. Free is good. It'll kill off your zombies, but you'll have the mana to save your Shades and Negator could care less.

Free is good, but what's the point behind a free spell when you have to use mana to save your creatures or let them die when you can have a one-sided Wrath of God for :2::b:? Plus, if they run pump effects (not crap like Crusades, I'm talking about Jitte & friends), Massacre is definitely inferior.

[technogeek5000]

Massacre blows in a deck that has a majority of its creatures in the 1-2 toughness range. Even if the deck could cast it without its board getting effected it still wouldnt be as effective as dystopia because dystopia is good against a large part of the field, not just white aggro.

[Versus]

I laughed - and Dystopia joined the party.

Seriously, is that question ironic? Besides, there's also Virtue's Ruin (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/po/39.jpg) if WW is such a big problem. :rolleyes:

HA! Oh man, I have Dystopia in my SB too! I'm getting old.

There's so much burn in that deck though. Won't the life loss from Dystopia....I'll try it tonight and see what what happens!

[technogeek5000]

Dystopia usually doesnt stay in play long enough for it to harm you. In 2 turns you take 3 perms and lose 3 life. A fair trade i think.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Dystopia usually doesnt stay in play long enough for it to harm you. In 2 turns you take 3 perms and lose 3 life. A fair trade i think.Six life, 1 + 2 + 3 = 6.

Dystopia is one of blacks only answer to enchantments. The card advantage outweighs the life lost.

[KillemallCFH]

Six life, 1 + 2 + 3 = 6.

Dystopia is one of blacks only answer to enchantments. The card advantage outweighs the life lost.He said 2 turns. You play it, they sac perm, put an age couunter, lose 1 life, they sac perm, put an age counter, lose 2 life (3 total), they sac perm, sac at your upkeep. I guess he should've said 3 opponent turns.

[technogeek5000]

Six life, 1 + 2 + 3 = 6.

Dystopia is one of blacks only answer to enchantments. The card advantage outweighs the life lost.



He said 2 turns. You play it, they sac perm, put an age couunter, lose 1 life, they sac perm, put an age counter, lose 2 life (3 total), they sac perm, sac at your upkeep. I guess he should've said 3 opponent turns.

Killemall is correct. Of course if you wanted to take 6 life for 4 perms thats fiine to. Reading is tech :wink:

Oh and my testing with cabal therapy has proven that the card is better in the current metagame then null rod is so i will put them in and we will so how it goes on Saturday.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Killemall is correct. Of course if you wanted to take 6 life for 4 perms thats fine to. Reading is tech :wink:

Oh and my testing with cabal therapy has proven that the card is better in the current metagame then null rod is so i will put them in and we will so how it goes on Saturday.

Heh, its nice to see some more Cabal Therapy love! I can't wait to hear the results.

Well, anyway here is my latest list. It has been running smooth and everything has been working. I am not sure I could make a better build without the sinkholes. Even so, please give me some feedback while keeping in mind I don't have the money for sinkholes right now.

Artifact

3 x Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures

4 x Phyrexian Negator
3 x Nantuko Shade
4 x Sarcomancy
4 x Carnophage
3 x Rotting Giant

Draw

4 x Night's Whisper

Disruption

4 x Duress
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Snuff Out
2 x Smother

Mana

4 x Dark Ritual
17 x Swamp

Sideboard

3 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Dystopia
4 x Engineered Plague
4 x Planar Void

[jebus]

LordEvilTeaCup:
How has running 18 lands worked for you? I'd think that with Jitte, Negator, and Shade, 20 would be more stable.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

LordEvilTeaCup:
How has running 18 lands worked for you? I'd think that with Jitte, Negator, and Shade, 20 would be more stable.

Its been working great actually. I don't think I could afford to take out any threats for lands due to me not playing the valuable sinkhole and wasteland. I am not running Dark Confidant (not sure if you wondering about that) because I don't think he is necessary without the said LD. So, I attempted to make a lower mana curve deck than usual and fit in more threats. I used to run Hypnotic Specter, and yes the 18 lands does NOT support both Negator/Shade/Jitte/Hyppie very well. However, once I took out the Hyppies and added in Snuff Out/Rotting Giant/Annurid, everything ran smooth. There is no mana screwed really unless someone blows up my lands. Dark Ritual shows up enough to power out things if necessary or pump up my Shades. Honestly, its like I don't really care about land either way. I get flooded my Shade gets big, I have one land and a Ritual I can still play pretty reasonably.

[Baumeister]

Could somebody please explain why Carnophage and Sarcomancy are good in this deck? I thought the whole goal of the first few turns were to disrupt the opponent and then lay down a creature that they must, in turn, deal with before proceeding with their intended plan. It seems like the zombies are only good turn 1 and then suck for the rest of the game. I would much rather go turn one Duress, turn two Hymn or Sinkhole, and turn three Negator than play some zombies that are going to be outclassed on turn two. It seems like the deck is attempting to do too much in the first couple of turns of the game. I think the deck performs better with creatures that have more staying power.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Your points are pretty valid, but the wee little zombies have their strong points too. One, its always nice to have some good first turn plays (You are not going to have a Duress in your hand always). Two, Sarcomancy has fantastic synergy Negator (it counts as two permanents). Three, although Goblins are not as popular as they once were, they are still around and the little zombie dorks are a strong answer to first turn Lackey. Four, swinging with a jitted-up zombie turn two is yet another strong play (with a little help from Dark Ritual of course.) Five, they are efficient beaters and not always outclassed by the second turn. I am sure there are other reasons, but they have always been a solid player in my build at least.

[Baumeister]

Hmm. I guess it's just me, but I prefer bigger beaters backed by more disruption. I play the list from the first page of this thread, and I've tested it against traditional Suicide Black Decks. Even when they get down the zombies first turn, bigger guys like Nantuko Shade beat the shit out of them before they can make a difference. Nantuko Shade has won me so many games by himself that I was convinced not to use the zombies, but with Jitte, I could see how they would be good. I don't really want to water down the disruption suite, though. Maybe I'll just go over to the Red Death thread.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hmm. I guess it's just me, but I prefer bigger beaters backed by more disruption. I play the list from the first page of this thread, and I've tested it against traditional Suicide Black Decks. Even when they get down the zombies first turn, bigger guys like Nantuko Shade beat the shit out of them before they can make a difference. Nantuko Shade has won me so many games by himself that I was convinced not to use the zombies, but with Jitte, I could see how they would be good. I don't really want to water down the disruption suite, though. Maybe I'll just go over to the Red Death thread.

Heh, how the build does against the mirror match is not really that important. Suicide is not exactly the newest craze sweeping the nation. I would rather my deck be focused on winning against Threshold or Goblins, although admittedly the zombies are not so hot against Thresh. My Negator hearts them though :tongue:

[technogeek5000]

Tea cup: Nght's whiper is utter garbage. Confidant gives you more cards and it beats at your opponent.

Baumiester: 18 swamps is the right number if you dont run wastelands. Since teap cup runs shade i might consider running 1 more although i wouldnt know know what to take out for it thouugh. Oh and zombies are good because they apply dmage to your opponent. When you run eight you get ridiculous plays like 3 off of rit turn 1 or turn 1 jitte zombiie. Zombies are good because they are a cheap addition to your side of the board.

I actually played the mirror match once against the coming curse at the first hadley tournament. The whole matchup is dependant on who has the least amount of dead cards. Alo jittes are ridiculous.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Tea cup: Nght's whiper is utter garbage. Confidant gives you more cards and it beats at your opponent.

Baumiester: 18 swamps is the right number if you dont run wastelands. Since teap cup runs shade i might consider running 1 more although i wouldnt know know what to take out for it thouugh. Oh and zombies are good because they apply dmage to your opponent. When you run eight you get ridiculous plays like 3 off of rit turn 1 or turn 1 jitte zombiie. Zombies are good because they are a cheap addition to your side of the board.

I actually played the mirror match once against the coming curse at the first hadley tournament. The whole matchup is dependant on who has the least amount of dead cards. Alo jittes are ridiculous.

Night's Whisper is not garbage. It draws cards now, instead of later. Also, my draw is not going to be bolted to death. I also run snuff out, and we all know how it sucks to draw that with Bob. Not a reason for most builds, but they also have synergy with Rotting Giant. Heh, the main reason is for price reasons though. Like I said, I am bargain shopping at this point and Bob is still a tad pricey. However, I think it is pretty reasonable to run the Whispers in their place as a solid budget alternative.

BTW, my build prolly has the worst mirror matchup know to man:wink: Maybe as bad as the Ichorid matchup...

[lloydrage]

why not run bob instead of whisper?

[LordEvilTeaCup]

why not run bob instead of whisper?

Just look at the above post. I am not saying Night Whisper is better than Bob, but it has some advantages in my build (which is handicapped in many ways).

[Baumeister]

LordEvilTeacup: I like Night's Whisper. Just be careful, you're going to be losing a lot of life to various cards you're running. I would up the Smother count to 4 since it nails pretty much good creature in the format. The exception in Goblins, which it still does a good job with. Swap out some snuff outs for them. Since you're running Shade (which should be upped to 4) you could probably run more lands and cut some other stuff. I would normally say Jitte, but your creatures need that to speed up the clock. Sinkholes are amazing, but they are damn expensive. Otherwise, it looks pretty good.

[technogeek5000]

Snuff out is better then smother. I would keep your removal at 4 snuff and 2 smother.

[Baumeister]

Snuff out is better then smother. I would keep your removal at 4 snuff and 2 smother.

Snuff out can't hit black creatures and it costs you 4 life or 4 mana. Now that every deck that can run it is running Tarmogoyf, Legacy has sped up even more. That means creatures that cost less. Snuff Out may have been better before, but I think Smother is the way to go now.

[KillemallCFH]

Snuff out can't hit black creatures and it costs you 4 life or 4 mana. Now that every deck that can run it is running Tarmogoyf, Legacy has sped up even more. That means creatures that cost less. Snuff Out may have been better before, but I think Smother is the way to go now.I don't quite understand your logic here. You are the right - the format is speeding up, due in much part to Tarmogoyf. I don't know about you, but in a format that is becoming faster, I'd much rather be playing creatures/disruption on turn 2 instead of holding back to kill an opposing goyf. If only there was a card that was completely free that allowed me to play creatures without disturbing my tempo at all. Oh wait, there is. And its called Snuff Out.

[Baumeister]

It's not completely free; it costs 4 life for every snuff out you play. With all the life lose you're playing - Dark Confidant, Snuff Out, and Wretched Anurid - you're causing yourself a lot of pain. Plus, if Dark Confidant rips a Snuff Out, that's going to hurt twice as much as Smother. Anyway, I'd much rather hold back turn two for a Tarmogoyf, kill it, and then lay Nantuko Shade and proceed to beat every Tarmogoyf that comes down.

Also Wizards printed Gaddock Teeg. That card shuts down Snuff Out. Smother can kill Teeg, Snuff Out can't.

[technogeek5000]

Anyway, I'd much rather hold back turn two for a Tarmogoyf, kill it, and then lay Nantuko Shade and proceed to beat every Tarmogoyf that comes down.

Wait realy.

Instead of killing the goyf and playing shade on the same turn. I think you should rethink this statement because your logic is definately flawed.

[Baumeister]

Instead of killing the goyf and playing shade on the same turn. I think you should rethink this statement because our logic is definately flawed.

Okay, yeah that could be confusing. Turn two Smother, turn three Shade. That's what I meant, sorry.

[lloydrage]

I also think smother is way better.

for all of the reasons above, I mean smother owns all main creatures in all decks, and you dont lose life, and it doesnt hurt as bad when Bob ripps it off the top

[LordEvilTeaCup]

This is Suicide Black. The deck derived its name from using cards that lost you life, but gave you tempo. If you don't play this deck like you would play chicken on the Grand Canyon, than you just find yourself always losing. Snuff Out is what this deck is all about. Now, using it with Bob may be just enough to throw you off the cliff but I am not even sure about that. Basically, your life matters only when it reaches 0. Until then, spend that shit!

[jebus]

Why not Vendetta or Ghastly Demise?

[technogeek5000]

There both subpar to the other options. Vendetta costs less life then snuff out but snuff out is free. You cant run both because then the deck would have to much self inflicted life loss. Ghastly demise is strictly worse then both because it is dead early game, bad synergy with void, 1 more mana then void/cant hit black creatures like smother. Also it occaionally has trouble with goyf and if you run the white splash for goyfs they interfear with each other.

[Baumeister]

I really think it depends on the build you're running. It the faster, weenie build, free kill is good. You're trying to win the game quickly anyway, so life is more expendable. In the build Anwar posted, Vendetta and Smother are perfectly acceptable because you only need one threat on the board backed by removal and discard. You're also not taking as much damage from your cards. Smother is still good in both builds, in my opinion.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Heh, you know... its pretty awesome that the original monoblack Suicide is getting more attention on these forums than all the other forms and splashes of the Suicide empire. I don't know if this will last very long, but if just feels good. No offense to Techno and his very sexy White Death build, but I hope monoblack Suicide stays the most popular and keeps its viability (heh this way, tea cup saves himself some money:tongue: )

[technogeek5000]

I believe that monoblack will always be the most popular of the builds for bugdet reasons. The reason most people pick this deck up is because it is relatively cheap to build compared to other decks and can still place well at tournaments. My Suicide white deck costs around a 150$ more and if you would build the deck from scratch then you might be better off playing a different deck for the same amount of money if your meta requires it.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I believe that monoblack will always be the most popular of the builds for bugdet reasons. The reason most people pick this deck up is because it is relatively cheap to build compared to other decks and can still place well at tournaments. My Suicide white deck costs around a 150$ more and if you would build the deck from scratch then you might be better off playing a different deck for the same amount of money if your meta requires it.

Ha ha ha, keep the name as Suicide White techno. It works. Hmmm, I think the only advantage that the monoblack build has over the splashes is a more stable manabase. I hope that is enough to keep it competitive in comparison for a while. If not, I am going to have to decide a splash eventually.

[technogeek5000]

Well if your meta is flooded with wastelands then monoblack might be a smarter choice. But if it isnt then then a splash will probably make it better.

[Baumeister]

Okay, it seems like we have a couple, if not three, different decks floating around right now. I think we should post current decklists and gear them towards the *****-heavy metagame. This is a good time for Suicide Black because it has competent game against ***** and was built to beat Control which is on the rise. I play Anwar's list with Smother.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Okay, it seems like we have a couple, if not three, different decks floating around right now. I think we should post current decklists and gear them towards the *****-heavy metagame. This is a good time for Suicide Black because it has competent game against ***** and was built to beat Control which is on the rise. I play Anwar's list with Smother.

Heh, I will pilot the McPoor Special:cool: We should make an all Suicide Black game squad.

Lets do this!

[Baumeister]

Hey, poor is not bad. Soliditary was one of the cheapest decks to come out of Legacy in a long time, and it rocked the entire format.

Okay, so the deck has a few cards that have to be in there:

17 Swamps (at least)
Nantuko Shade
Phyrexian Negator
Duress
Dark Ritual
Hymn to Tourach

I think these spots are infallible. These cards are the best black has to offer us.

Other Cards include:
Carnophage
Sarcomancy
Hypnotic Specter
Wretched Anurid
Rotting Giant
Dark Confidant
Sinkhole
Wasteland
Vendetta
Smother
Snuff Out
Diabolic Edict
Umezawa's Jitte

And Sideboard Options:
Dystopia
Deathmark
Infest
Cabal Therapy
Dash Hopes (maybe for surprise factor)
Chalice
Tormod's Crypt
Planar Void
Unmask

[technogeek5000]

umm i havent been running shade in a while and it has been working for me. Oh and to help your sideboard options

- dash hopes(nope, no suprise factor for this deck... you never want to be holding back for this)
- deathmark(strictly worse then dystopia, there is zero reason to run this over dystopia)
+ E plauge(single handedly beats gobs, now that there splashing black as there main color its even better)

[sammiel]

umm i havent been running shade in a while and it has been working for me. Oh and to help your sideboard options

- dash hopes(nope, no suprise factor for this deck... you never want to be holding back for this)
- deathmark(strictly worse then dystopia, there is zero reason to run this over dystopia)
+ E plauge(single handedly beats gobs, now that there splashing black as there main color its even better)



I don't think strictly means what you think it does.

Also, since when is goblins splashing black? I saw some speculation about trying it and that's it.

[Baumeister]

Yeah, you're right about Dash Hopes. Combo would probably just look at the card, shrug, pay the life, and kill you. I totally forgot about engineered plague. Wow, that's the number one Goblin hoser. As for Nantuko Shade, I would run him now more than ever. He's one of the few creatures in the format that can beat Tarmogoyf, and, for that matter, almost every other creature. He's a threat that must be dealt with immediately, and he can finish the game for you. He also turns all Dark Rituals into Giant Growths, and you want to be able to use every card you see. He's got pretty good synergy with the deck because you're not going to be playing cards every turn and you're going to have mana open. Maybe it's not the case for your deck, but Shade is the MVP in mine.

[technogeek5000]

I don't think strictly means what you think it does.

Also, since when is goblins splashing black? I saw some speculation about trying it and that's it.

Not sure exactly what your trying to say in the first sentence. But your second statement is outdated. Look at any of the new lists and read the posts on lorwyn. the only color there considering is black in addition with red. Black is the other tribal color for goblins so this incourages the use of black.

baumeister: 2 more cards for your list:
leyline
null rod

Well since i run confidant i will be playing a card every turn. In my deck shade is weaker then it probably is in your deck.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Techno, I know you play Suicide White now and you use StP. However, if you were playing mono would you use snuff out even though you run Bob.