[Deck] Suicide Black [Archive] - Page 4

LordEvilTeaCup

10-30-2007, 11:03 PM

Sorry for the double post. Well, for the last couple days I have been testing chrome mox like a madman. All I have to say is that I believe again! Chrome Mox is just what this deck needs. I do not think there are any other decks besides Faerie Stompy that can utilize this card like Sui Black. It gives this deck a faster clock without destroying consistency. Mid to late game if you happen to find yourself with a mox, you can just toss some of your now dead cards to it. That with Dark Ritual and Snuff Out, and you got yourself a nice tempo boost. I am not sure how it would pane out with a Stark build, but the mox gives the more traditional version a shot in the arm. Once again, not sure if Galroth was the first who came up with the idea but props anyway.

Ozymandias

10-31-2007, 12:16 AM

The nice thing about Chrome Mox is that it allows the deck to cheat on its mana curve in twice the number of ways, allowing the one-drop zombies to be ditched without hesitation. The bad thing is that in a deck without a source of CA beyond Hymn, Specter and/or BoB, losing a card to the Mox is bad times. Anyway, Land, Mox, Shade is a lot stronger than Land, Rit Shade, so here's a sample decklist.

17 Swamps
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 ???
4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
3 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm not quite sure what mystery dude is, but I'm pretty sure it needs to be Bob, and absolutely needs to be a 2-drop. I shaved 3 lands and a "floating" slot for the 4 Mox, but I'm not sure that you ever want to draw 2, unlike Ritual.

The idea of Mox reminds me of this article

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3477.html

With Mox and Thoughtziese, there are enough 1-drops for the zombies to be somewhat obsoleted.

Tacosnape

10-31-2007, 12:54 AM

17 Swamps, 4 Chrome Moxes, and 4 Dark Rituals is too much mana in this deck. I can't see ever playing more than 16/4/4 with a high curve, and on some builds I'd go as low as 14/4/4.

Also, for whatever it's worth, I've come to the conclusion that Stromgald Crusader is better than Order of the Ebon Hand in almost all circumstances (Ebon Hand is better with a Jitte on him), and that Stromgald Crusader is absolutely ridiculous against a ton of decks, very hard to get rid of, and belongs in most builds. His immunity to STP/Shriekmaw/Snuff Out coupled with the fact that the deck can needle Deed post-board makes there very few ways to easily handle him (Fanatic and Smother are the few that come immediately to mind.) The fact that he flies makes you able to randomly topdeck him and finish an opponent off after they've somewhat stabilized, which is exactly what the deck needs.

The potential for obsoleting the 1-drop zombies is an interesting one, to be sure. I've never had any doubt that Sarcomancy and Chrome Mox don't belong in the same deck for a minute, though Carnophage might still pull his weight. If you maindeck Leyline, Mox helps solve the double Leyline problem (Or the single, if you know what you're playing against or need the mana worse.) And both Leyline and Mox have terrific synergy with Phyrexian Negator.

I'm contemplating trying a Chrome Mox version that runs anywhere from 14-16 Pro-White guys, also. Black Knight/Hand of Cruelty/Ebon Hand/Crusader has amusing potential, provided nobody drops a Chalice for 2 at any point.

EDIT: Or a Plague on Knights. Apparently Ebon Hand has, much to my chagrin, now become a Cleric Knight. Good job, Wizards. Let's see how far trying to roll a Cleric as a D&D race gets me.

LordEvilTeaCup

10-31-2007, 01:04 AM

17 Swamps, 4 Chrome Moxes, and 4 Dark Rituals is too much mana in this deck. I can't see ever playing more than 16/4/4 with a high curve, and on some builds I'd go as low as 14/4/4.

Also, for whatever it's worth, I've come to the conclusion that Stromgald Crusader is better than Order of the Ebon Hand in almost all circumstances (Ebon Hand is better with a Jitte on him), and that Stromgald Crusader is absolutely ridiculous against a ton of decks, very hard to get rid of, and belongs in most builds. His immunity to STP/Shriekmaw/Snuff Out coupled with the fact that the deck can needle Deed post-board makes there very few ways to easily handle him (Fanatic and Smother are the few that come immediately to mind.) The fact that he flies makes you able to randomly topdeck him and finish an opponent off after they've somewhat stabilized, which is exactly what the deck needs.

The potential for obsoleting the 1-drop zombies is an interesting one, to be sure. I've never had any doubt that Sarcomancy and Chrome Mox don't belong in the same deck for a minute, though Carnophage might still pull his weight. If you maindeck Leyline, Mox helps solve the double Leyline problem (Or the single, if you know what you're playing against or need the mana worse.) And both Leyline and Mox have terrific synergy with Phyrexian Negator.

I'm contemplating trying a Chrome Mox version that runs anywhere from 14-16 Pro-White guys, also. Black Knight/Hand of Cruelty/Ebon Hand/Crusader has amusing potential, provided nobody drops a Chalice for 2 at any point.

Yeah, I play 15 swamps, 3 wastelands, and 3 Mox. That is all you need. Well, Galroth convinced me to put Mox in my deck and now Taco has convinced me to put Stormgald crusader in my build. *is so happy he found The Source* Really though, I think we have taken this deck a long ways. Its a good day to play Sui gentleman!

Ozymandias

10-31-2007, 11:39 AM

I guess taking a swamp out is doable, but I do not like the idea of adding in a another Jitte. Instead, I think one MD pithing needle is a good choice, because of its ability to never really be dead.

Holo_rip

10-31-2007, 12:05 PM

i know that sui black has to win as fast as possible, it has to play threat and beat the opponent to hell and all...
but, with card like dark ritual, chrome mox and such, don't you think that a way to draw card like bob or night's whisper should be include (or even sensei's divining top for card quality) ?
i mean, when you've disrupt your opponent and land (or not) your threat, we rely on topdeck, and i really hate that (keep in mind that my meta is full of threshold, so it's hard to land threat and keep them alive long enought to quickly end the game).

Any thought ?

Holo.

Edit : i wanna know your thought about this card, it always seems good to me, but well, it can be just me..
Sudden Spoiling
1BB
Instant
Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.) Creatures target player controls become 0/2 and lose all abilities until end of turn.

Mesercus

10-31-2007, 01:00 PM

Sudden spoiling:
It's not bad but 1BB is high.
I prefer the classics vendetta/smother/snuff out.
About the card drawing engine i've tried both wishpers and bob and i don't like these cards here.
Bob could be ok but it's too fragile and no evasive..you need the true power here like negator, hypnotic specters, shade and some others 2 mana cc creatures (giants, anurid or anti-stp knights).
Anyway if i have to choose i prefer bob to other options.

Tacosnape

10-31-2007, 01:42 PM

Card draw in a deck where the majority of your deck is a bad topdeck isn't necessarily a good idea.

Night's Whisper blows, and Dark Confidant can't swing through -anything- in a deck that can't afford not to swing. And if your opponent lets Dark Confidant live, chances are your better attacker would have lived too, which means you wouldn't have needed the Confidant.

Suicide Black is best focused on having better, more explosive, more consistent starts, because these are the games it most wins.

Also, Smother >> Snuff Out >> Vendetta >> Sudden Spoiling. There's no use for a 3CC removal spell that can't kill a Tarmogoyf, unless you're running a ton of first strikers and want to do sneaky combat shit. For what it's worth, I'd pick Ashes to Ashes over Vendetta -or- Sudden Spoiling. A2A for the same cost can clear a pair of Tarmogoyfs out of the way and wins you games you have no business winning.

Versus

10-31-2007, 02:16 PM

Tacosnape

10-31-2007, 03:22 PM

I don't know if you've went over this or not. I'm not even saying it's worth running in this deck, but since 3cc removal spells was brought up Eyeblights Ending (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=139449) will kill anything in Legacy including Goyf. I'm pretty sure there aren't any Elves in this format to stand in your way.

Rend Flesh kills everything in the format also. You don't see anybody running that, do you?

3 mana is too much for a removal spell in this deck or any Sui Black variant unless it does something astronomical. Bolt and Chain are the removal spells of choice in Red Death because they cost a mere one mana and can reach to a player. Deadguy variants run Vindicate, which removes absolutely anything, and sometimes STP. Sui Black runs Jitte, because, well, it defines astronomical.

Sudden Spoiling, Rend Flesh, and Eyeblight's Ending all fail to be astronomical, and killing a Tarmogoyf with one of them is a tempo loss for you in the one Legacy deck in the universe that can least afford a tempo loss.

Illissius

10-31-2007, 03:40 PM

killing a Tarmogoyf with one of them is a tempo loss for you in the one Legacy deck in the universe that can least afford a tempo loss.

Why isn't Snuff Out better than Smother, by this logic?

Ozymandias

10-31-2007, 04:06 PM

LordEvilTeaCup

10-31-2007, 05:46 PM

Well...it is, in Suiblack. I mean, being able to cast a druess on the same turn you snuff the Tarmogoyf is def. worth the 4th life. Sui will gladly ignore it's own life total to remove the most frustrating blocker since Light Beer.

Also, in the build with Mox, COnfidant helps you fuel that explosive and unfair starts, because Ritual-> duress+Bob is even better than Ritual->Duress+Shade, etc.

I agree 100%. Snuff Out > Smother all the way. It sucks to top deck it with Bob, but that doesn't happen enough to me to bother me. Plus if it does, I shrug and hurt myself for 8 dmg. I guess it goes back to the point of what creature would beat him out for the slot. I myself can't think of any. Everyone is free to disagree, but I am sticking with Bob. I have heard both sides of the argument, and the main points for or against Bob have already been posted. I guess you just have to decide for yourself.

Edit: On another note... Stormgald crusader> Rotting Giant. *huggles Stormgald*

Tacosnape

10-31-2007, 07:54 PM

Why isn't Snuff Out better than Smother, by this logic?

It might be. It's very close. In any case, Snuff and Smother are worlds better than any other single-target removal options.

There's always a little more to look out than just the tempo, though. Snuff Out doesn't kill some things in the format. Such as anything that's black, any artifact creature, or anything at all if Gaddock Teeg is on the board. And the 4 life -can- be steep when you tack on all the other life penalties Sui Black likes to run.

Smother, however, has very very little that it can't kill and costs you no life. However, having to spend the mana can indeed be a pain sometimes. And Smother also gets Spell Snared where Snuff Out doesn't.

In short, I think I'd pick Smother in a Confidant build, and not just because of the life differential, but because Confidant builds don't always try to kill as fast as humanly possible and can afford the tempo loss. I'd pick Snuff Out in a regular build. ...That is, if I even ran either one.

Illissius

10-31-2007, 08:29 PM

Snuff does actually kill artifact creatures (but the point is clear).

LordEvilTeaCup

10-31-2007, 11:05 PM

It might be. It's very close. In any case, Snuff and Smother are worlds better than any other single-target removal options.

There's always a little more to look out than just the tempo, though. Snuff Out doesn't kill some things in the format. Such as anything that's black, any artifact creature, or anything at all if Gaddock Teeg is on the board. And the 4 life -can- be steep when you tack on all the other life penalties Sui Black likes to run.

Smother, however, has very very little that it can't kill and costs you no life. However, having to spend the mana can indeed be a pain sometimes. And Smother also gets Spell Snared where Snuff Out doesn't.

In short, I think I'd pick Smother in a Confidant build, and not just because of the life differential, but because Confidant builds don't always try to kill as fast as humanly possible and can afford the tempo loss. I'd pick Snuff Out in a regular build. ...That is, if I even ran either one.

Huh, I don't think so. Confidant Builds still wants to swing hard, and still use the pump and jump nonsense. Maybe its not a Bob out, but a Shade turn 2. Mr. Shade still wants to smack a bitch regardless if there is Bob in a deck. Hell, if you snuff out Mr. Goyf or what have you, Confidant is still beating 2 in the face. First turn Confidant happens quite a bit with mox, and Thresh is not going to have anything more than a gofy out by turn 2. You Snuff the bitch and then swing for 2. Yeah there is the little mongoose dude but whatever, Bob can lay a little beats from time to time. So if anything, the life loss is the issue, because Bob the builder still likes tempo either way. Even with the life loss with Bob, I say tempo for the peoples.

Its Halloween so fuck that civil shit for the night:cool: Give me some candor!

Ozymandias

11-01-2007, 02:01 PM

As appetizing as Stromgald Crusader looks, I don't know what I could remove for it. I need to keep the discard suite, and I really think that Hyppie, Gator, Shade and Bob are all better

Tacosnape

11-01-2007, 02:48 PM

Snuff does actually kill artifact creatures (but the point is clear).

...Rtfc, Taco. Rtfc.

As appetizing as Stromgald Crusader looks, I don't know what I could remove for it. I need to keep the discard suite, and I really think that Hyppie, Gator, Shade and Bob are all better

Hyppie's probably the best choice here, because after a certain point his discard ability becomes less important than the fact that he flies. Stromgald Crusader covers this.

Negator could be justified given that Hyppie + Crusader = lots of evasion, and Confidant's generally fairly average, so he could go too. Shade stays.

Alternately, I've never felt 16 threats to be sufficient in Suicide Black. Red Death can get away with it due to burn reach, and Deadguy can get away with even less due to playing a fair long game, but Suicide Black is lost without threats. So you might want to consider cutting a non-threat for him.

...Is your build running Wasteland? I can't recall. Stromgald Crusader is less of a great idea in a Wasteland build due to the black mana intensity.

Ozymandias

11-01-2007, 02:57 PM

My current build is:
4 Negator
4 Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Umezawa's jitte
4 Snuff Out
4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
16 Swamp

So that leaves one card. Assuming I shave two of the discard spells (Probably Thoughtsieze before Duress, because I'm spilling more than enough life already.), that means I can go up to 3 crusaders and thus 19 creatures. At the same time, I wonder if that's enough discard.

If Crusader proves good, what creature would I cut to go up to 4? I mean, I never want to draw multiples, do I?

Also, I propose the nickname Superzombie for Crusader. Because you will believe a Zombie can fly.

Tacosnape

11-01-2007, 03:21 PM

I think the very first thing I'd do with your list is add the first Crusader, then cut a Swamp for the second one.

I'd cut a Snuff Out for Crusader #3, and a second swamp for Crusader #4.

Ozymandias

11-01-2007, 05:44 PM

That leaves me with 22 mana sources, only 18 of which stick around. I dunno if that's enough for the 3-mana spells I want to resolve.

Tacosnape

11-01-2007, 05:49 PM

That leaves me with 22 mana sources, only 18 of which stick around. I dunno if that's enough for the 3-mana spells I want to resolve.

It might be, based on how hard your manabase is to disrupt and the fact that you can always imprint your 3-drops on your Chrome Moxes to solve your mana curve. Plus, you run Dark Confidant, who's a god at getting you Land #3.

Still, if you're worried, cut 1 Swamp and go to 2 Crusaders and try the deck out awhile and see if your manabase is a problem at 23/19 rather than 22/18.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-01-2007, 07:29 PM

Crusader works fine even with decks with wasteland. It just takes a measly one mana to make him jump. Swinging 2 evasive at the very worst isn't too bad and if you have Bob than that will happen a lot less.

Well are we all in agreement over Snuff Out versus Smother now or are there some points left be made? To me, any deck with 6 or more pump/jump creatures will want to have Snuff Out. I am asking for further debate, because I really lack strict confidence in which is better in builds with Bob. This deck needs to be optimized regardless of which direction you chose and I think which removal you go for is important.

Also, is Hyppie obsolete now? The only place I see him is in builds that run 4 mox and ritual. With the addition of thoughtseize, I see lists that leave out hyppie and just run 4 duress and 4 thoughtseize to cover. Still with some chromage, turn 2 Hyppie is probably one of your strongest plays.

I like how your build is developing so far Ozzy. I too, am going with 4 Chrome Moxes. Even if it can create problems, I think ensuring early draws of mox outweigh every other issue.

Nihil Credo

11-01-2007, 08:08 PM

Ozzy's list does run Hippie. Unless judges in his area are sloppy enough to let him play eight Shades.

Tacosnape

11-01-2007, 08:39 PM

Well are we all in agreement over Snuff Out versus Smother now or are there some points left be made?

Yeah. The point of running neither one, which is what I pick.

Nobody has yet to offer any sort of valid reason on why a removal spell beyond Umezawa's Jitte and Plague/Dystopia in the sideboard is necessary, especially with Thoughtseize now adding a dimension of creature management that was previously lacking.

Ataxrxes

11-01-2007, 08:46 PM

Yeah. The point of running neither one, which is what I pick.

Nobody has yet to offer any sort of valid reason on why a removal spell beyond Umezawa's Jitte and Plague/Dystopia in the sideboard is necessary, especially with Thoughtseize now adding a dimension of creature management that was previously lacking.

Say you are in a situation like mine where you cannot afford the Thoughtseize and Jittes, yet you still want to play a version of this deck that is as competetive as you can make it with what resources are available to you. I think seize remains Hymn and the Jitte slots become either Snuff Out or Smother.

Tacosnape

11-01-2007, 09:07 PM

Say you are in a situation like mine where you cannot afford the Thoughtseize and Jittes, yet you still want to play a version of this deck that is as competetive as you can make it with what resources are available to you. I think seize remains Hymn and the Jitte slots become either Snuff Out or Smother.

Well alright, if we're talking hypothetical budgets, then yes, you have to run some form of a removal spell. And if you don't have Thoughtseizes, your choice immediately becomes Snuff Out because now you've got the life to spend.

I personally wouldn't -play- Suicide Black without Jitte, but if you are, Snuff Out's a solid pick.

Ataxrxes

11-01-2007, 09:33 PM

Well alright, if we're talking hypothetical budgets, then yes, you have to run some form of a removal spell. And if you don't have Thoughtseizes, your choice immediately becomes Snuff Out because now you've got the life to spend.

I personally wouldn't -play- Suicide Black without Jitte, but if you are, Snuff Out's a solid pick.

Yeah, Jittes are definitely the next card I pick up for this thing. I like the Mox plan too, but I just hate imprinting cards to them haha. I suppose it wouldn't be so bad if my first turn play was Bob though.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-01-2007, 10:51 PM

Yeah. The point of running neither one, which is what I pick.

Nobody has yet to offer any sort of valid reason on why a removal spell beyond Umezawa's Jitte and Plague/Dystopia in the sideboard is necessary, especially with Thoughtseize now adding a dimension of creature management that was previously lacking.

The main reason I would offer is, we don't play gofy. Yeah match two might go better with some help from Dystopia, but game one I want Gofy answers. He is superior to all of your threats and all you have to combat him creature wise is N. Shade. Basically, Gofy can stall you a turn or two too many while your opponent stabilizes and plays into his superior mid to late game. Plus it clears blockers for your threats and Gator likes not having to swing into too many creatures. Snuff Out and Shade is so much pain in your opponents face its not funny.

Hummingbird TG

11-02-2007, 01:22 AM

There's a card that kills Goyf utterly, I hear. It's called Tombstalker; and if you don't mind Bob hitting you for 8 with Snuff Out, I'd play the better card here.

Ozymandias

11-02-2007, 09:40 AM

Hmmm...and when does this Tombstalker come down?

Let's say, in a very optimistic approximation, that you can get one card in your graveyard down per turn.

Let's also say that you can get one mana per turn until turn 3, and 1 mana every other turn after that- also optimistic.

That means Tombstalker can come out on what, Turn 5? That's if you draw nothing but spells and land. In a deck that wants to combine vry early disruption with very early beats, Tombstalker is a poor choice. There's simply not enough fuel.

Example hand that I just revved up: Swamp, Swamp, Thoughtseizex2, Hymn, Shade, Negator. What card did you want to remove again? How is tombstalker going to come down at all from this hand?

Hummingbird TG

11-02-2007, 10:15 AM

Of course you don't play 4 Tombstalkers. Merely 1-2. But when they DO come down vs thresh, they're devastating. And they're for midgame, not early game, duh. Against Thresh the fight is largely in the midgame, anyway, not early...

Ozymandias

11-02-2007, 11:10 AM

This is Suiblack. There IS no midgame!

If your opponent isn't either hamstrung or heavily damaged by turn 4, you're doing it wrong.

technogeek5000

11-02-2007, 03:11 PM

Ok im gonna break my vow of silence since i will not be playing sui at TMLO (maybe someone else playing my deck but it certainly wont be me behind the cards) as buying 3 fetches is more expensive then a few singles i need to fill up another deck.

This is Suiblack. There IS no midgame!

If your opponent isn't either hamstrung or heavily damaged by turn 4, you're doing it wrong.

Sui does have a midgame, its just not what you should be focusing on. Confidant and jitte are both midgame cards but are not the focus of the deck. The early game is where this deck should be aiming at because it runs accelartion like d rit and the newly popular mox. This is why i believe zombies belong in the deck because they are a decent 1 drop and they smooth out your curve (please dont argue with me here, we can agree to disagree).

Of course you don't play 4 Tombstalkers. Merely 1-2. But when they DO come down vs thresh, they're devastating. And they're for midgame, not early game, duh. Against Thresh the fight is largely in the midgame, anyway, not early...

Dark confidant is an important card and paying 8 life sucks. Against thresh it is meh because they get most of there pump from their own yard. They come down slow and it gets answered by all of their counter magic outside of balance

REMOVAL:

Thoughtsieze gives the deck a new way to handle creatures so less removal is needed. I have decided to drop thoughtsieze in my white build because the life loss was getting to me, and stp is removal enough with jitte. I would only play this deck with 2-3 sources of life loss and if you run sieze, bob, phage, and fetches like i do thenits to much. SOme other things:

- Play jittes... if you cant then play snuffs but be careful with them and bob

- sieze and jittes are enough removal. sieze is just worse late game then spot removal. This is what you trade for versatality.

LEYLINE/VOID:

Leyline lets you play more cards but you have to mull if you want to find it. void works better with confidant.

So if you run bob then play void and if ou dont play leyline.

Ozymandias

11-02-2007, 05:00 PM

technogeek5000

11-02-2007, 05:42 PM

Umm like i said, i dont run thoughtsieze (also i dont believe chrome fits the deck and even if it does I wont be running it until I can muster up the 60-80 dollars) so zombie fits my deck perfectly. I agree that zombies may not fit your deck but as for mine they are good 1 drops.

Tacosnape

11-02-2007, 06:05 PM

I'm a fraid we can't agree to disagree on the issue of Zombies.

Zombies, now that Mox and Thoughtzeize are making their way into the deck, are out moded. There is literally no reason to run them anymore.

On turn 1, any of Ritual, Mox, Duress or Thoughtseize is better
On turn 2, any of the earlier plays plus Shade, Confidant, and Hymn are better
On turn 3, Gator and Hyppie and any two of the earlier plays are better.

If Isamaru no longer makes the cut, why would worse versions? Put another way, this is Legacy, not 98 standard. Every single card in the deck needs to be able to win the game or cripple the opponent's strategy. The Zombies have trouble doing either.

Ah, now, see, here's some interesting discussion.

First of all, I'm right on with Techno on pretty much everything he said. I may think he's on crack regarding Sinkhole, or Leyline, or whatever it was, but he's pretty dead on here. Jitte and Thoughtseize are enough removal, and people don't run enough threats. I'm also not necessarily right on board with Chrome Mox. Mox's acceleration is solid, but the Zombies more or less do the same thing.

I dispute that Duress/Thoughtseize is automatically a better turn one play than Carnophage/Sarcomancy. It -can- be, depending on what deck you're playing against, but it isn't always.

Dark Ritual's better than -anything- on turn one. However, Dark Ritual does not necessarily preclude anything. Dark Ritual can, for example, allow a ridiculous first turn of Carnophage/Sarcomancy/Duress, or Shade/Duress followed by turn two Carnophage/Sarcomancy, or the occasional turn one Ritual/Triple Zombie (I lost to this in a tournament with 4C Landstill when this play was immediately followed by a Hymn taking away both lands I hadn't dropped, leaving me to die with 2 Pernicious Deeds in hand.) The Zombies are better -because- of Dark Ritual.

As for your last paragraph, Isamaru doesn't make the cut in what, exactly? Suicide Black doesn't run plains, and last I checked Death and Taxes loves the puppy. As for every card winning the game or crippling the opponent's strategy, despite that I completely disagree with your argument, it's in fact an argument -for- the zombies and -against- Chrome Mox. Carnophages and Sarcomancies kill your opponents. Chrome Moxes don't.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-02-2007, 07:07 PM

Carnophages and Sarcomancies kill your opponents. Chrome Moxes don't.

The better creature that you lay down due to the mox's acceleration does though. I agree that the zombies are by far the safer play and will not cause some random crap happening to you. However, this deck can't fool around and for the most part Chrome Mox will add power do your deck.

C.P.

11-03-2007, 10:56 AM

The better creature that you lay down due to the mox's acceleration does though. I agree that the zombies are by far the safer play and will not cause some random crap happening to you. However, this deck can't fool around and for the most part Chrome Mox will add power do your deck.

Lowering your threat count for faster threat is never a good idea, especially in Suicide Black. Your creatures are very fragile as it is, anyway.

EDIT: Of course, better threat is different, but unless you're talking bout Goyf or Negator good, it does not make much difference.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-03-2007, 11:28 AM

Lowering your threat count for faster threat is never a good idea, especially in Suicide Black. Your creatures are very fragile as it is, anyway.

EDIT: Of course, better threat is different, but unless you're talking bout Goyf or Negator good, it does not make much difference.

This does have a lot of truth in it, but the mox makes the Hyppie so much better and laying down a Confidant first turn is strong. That is 12 out of 18 creatures that love to be dropped early due to the Mox. I will admit Confidant is a weaker example of this, but second turn Hyppie is indeed a strong play. Also, it has surpising synergy with this deck due to all the dead cards. This is one of the few decks that could see a Mox mid game and not despair over having to pitch some important spell. Half the time you won't be pitching a creature anyway. The way I am looking at it is. How viable is Sui Black as it stands? If you answer me not quite there, then I would suggest we need to take the risk that is chrome mox.

Meh, I have been thinking of the removal issue and am having a hard time believing there should be any MB removal besides Jitte. Its one of the biggest reasons Black has an edge over Blue. You guys could be right on this issue, but it just feels hard to believe. I would love to debate further if anyone is actually interested.

C.P.

11-03-2007, 11:50 AM

This does have a lot of truth in it, but the mox makes the Hyppie so much better and laying down a Confidant first turn is strong. That is 12 out of 18 creatures that love to be dropped early due to the Mox. I will admit Confidant is a weaker example of this, but second turn Hyppie is indeed a strong play. Also, it has surpising synergy with this deck due to all the dead cards. This is one of the few decks that could see a Mox mid game and not despair over having to pitch some important spell. Half the time you won't be pitching a creature anyway. The way I am looking at it is. How viable is Sui Black as it stands? If you answer me not quite there, then I would suggest we need to take the risk that is chrome mox.

Meh, I have been thinking of the removal issue and am having a hard time believing there should be any MB removal besides Jitte. Its one of the biggest reasons Black has an edge over Blue. You guys could be right on this issue, but it just feels hard to believe. I would love to debate further if anyone is actually interested.

I played Chrome mox a while ago, and that boost is not quite worth it. It's whether:

1. Overkill.
2. Your early threat dies and mox just sits there like a swamp.
3. You run out of gas after a sweeping or two, and lose.

If you think you have too much dead card, then it's a deckbuilding problem you got there. especially if those cards are dead in the early game. I couldn't care less about Chrome Mox after turn 5 or something, and before that, it eats up that important early game gas. I'd much rather run unmask if you have trouble with dead cards.

I also have to point out random EE/Keg at 0 to get zombie tokens becomes LD if Mox is on the table.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-03-2007, 12:35 PM

I played Chrome mox a while ago, and that boost is not quite worth it. It's whether:

1. Overkill.
2. Your early threat dies and mox just sits there like a swamp.
3. You run out of gas after a sweeping or two, and lose.

If you think you have too much dead card, then it's a deckbuilding problem you got there. especially if those cards are dead in the early game. I couldn't care less about Chrome Mox after turn 5 or something, and before that, it eats up that important early game gas. I'd much rather run unmask if you have trouble with dead cards.

I also have to point out random EE/Keg at 0 to get zombie tokens becomes LD if Mox is on the table.

Dead cards in your hand is a Sui Black problem period. That is the nature of discard. I was merely commenting that most of other decks would be much more disturbed by a mid game mox then we would. That is generally one of the biggest complaints about it. Here, one of the major flaws of the cards merely turns into the equivalent of drawing into land. Anyway, I am not quite sure how a turn 2 Hyppie is over kill. It is what the deck wants. Plus what decks are you playing against? I am not being sarcastic, I am just curious of your meta. I don't claim to come from the greatest meta myself, but to me it seems laying strong early threats against many of the Tier 1 decks seem to be just what the doctor ordered. I will take the risk.

Yeah your point about having your early threat die is a very valid point and one that I always agreed on. However, does having that one extra card in your hand save the day? Yeah it could at times, but I don't think you are fairly weighing the benefits of Chrome Mox. The Mox gives you tempo at a price, but I feel I got more than just that. In my build at least, it allowed me to rid myself of the 1cc zombies. It allowed me to lay down my Bob and Stromgald Crusader(not too shabby of a first turn play) turn one, or my Hyppie/Gator turn 2. Plus you still never answered my question. Is Sui Black viable as is? I say no, and everyone else is trying to fix the Sui problem through different means. Some are MB GY hate and others are trying to make it faster. I think something should be done. The Chrome Mox is one answer, and one that might require more deck tweaks to really make it work.

Also, to help your last point out it also turns your opponents krosan grips into LD. Yeah it is something to think about, but I don't see it as a major concern.

C.P.

11-03-2007, 12:53 PM

Also, to help your last point out it also turns your opponents krosan grips into LD. Yeah it is something to think about, but I don't see it as a major concern.

I'm half drunk, so just on this point.

Grip turning into LD is fine. otherwise it will aim at Jitte or Scroll or something.
I just don't like how EE is prevalent due to ETW, and it kinda splashes to the Mox. but well, since you do not run Sarcomancy anymore, I guess it's alright.

EDIT: You do realize no matter how much tempo you get from mox, a bolt or StP will set it back in a snap, right? Is turn 2 Hyppy really worth it? your hard matchups gets worse if you take that path, or at least in my experience. If you prefer better threats, I think you have to look for something similar to Deadguy or something.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-03-2007, 12:59 PM

I'm half drunk, so just on this point.

Grip turning into LD is fine. otherwise it will aim at Jitte or Scroll or something.
I just don't like how EE is prevalent due to ETW, and it kinda splashes to the Mox. but well, since you do not run Sarcomancy anymore, I guess it's alright.

Ha ha ha awesome, it has been a while since I had a good drink. Anyway, I am not sure what impact EE will have here but EE at 2 would be more devastating. I could be wrong, but I think under most circumstances they won't use it to kill the mox.

Tacosnape

11-03-2007, 01:39 PM

EDIT: You do realize no matter how much tempo you get from mox, a bolt or StP will set it back in a snap, right? Is turn 2 Hyppy really worth it? your hard matchups gets worse if you take that path, or at least in my experience. If you prefer better threats, I think you have to look for something similar to Deadguy or something.

This is why I run Stromgald Crusader, Order of the Ebon Hand, and Hand of Cruelty/Black Knight/Knight of Stromgald/etc. Flipping off Swords to Plowshares is always a worthwhile endeavor.

For what it's worth, I'm currently testing a pair of Chrome Mox, as double in your opening hand is almost an auto-mulligan and I don't think 4 is correct at all. But personally I'm not overly sold on it unless you're running Negator. The synergy between Negator and Mox is enough to where I think you run neither or both. (I still pick neither.)

LordEvilTeaCup

11-03-2007, 07:02 PM

This is why I run Stromgald Crusader, Order of the Ebon Hand, and Hand of Cruelty/Black Knight/Knight of Stromgald/etc. Flipping off Swords to Plowshares is always a worthwhile endeavor.

For what it's worth, I'm currently testing a pair of Chrome Mox, as double in your opening hand is almost an auto-mulligan and I don't think 4 is correct at all. But personally I'm not overly sold on it unless you're running Negator. The synergy between Negator and Mox is enough to where I think you run neither or both. (I still pick neither.)

Running 4 is not too bad. Those double mox hands don't happen nearly enough to make it a major concern. I would like to ensure an early draw of it. Also, MB GY hate would be a much less risky affair due to the ability to use it to accelerate your normal game plan.

I am thinking of a creature base like this for a mox build...

4 Gator
4 Bob
4 Shade
4 Hyppie
3 Stromgald Crusader

Bob makes up for the card disadvantage and Hyppie= Best turn two play. The creature count is 19, because your threats are now more vulnerable. I think I am going to jump the ditch the LD train... Unfortunately you really can't run wastelands with 7 pump/jump critters. I thought 6 was doable, but even then it wasn't optimal. Meh, I will miss you LD.

Ozymandias

11-03-2007, 07:32 PM

The idea I'm trying to get at by saying that T1 Thoughtsieze is better than T1 Zombie is part of accepting the fact that in a aggro meta, Suicide is basically never the right choice, unless you can somehow slip to the draw bracket. Suicide's aggro matchup is universally terrible, because your MD is packed with dead discard, etc. Jitte helps, but not enough. And a zombie is just a 2/2 for one. As good as that is, it's just a speedbump.

Now, Duress is bad versus aggro, because they're aren't running enough non-creatures to make it matter. But, it's awesome vs. control, as it removes an answer, and still more awesome vs. combo, where you can hammer on their weak point. It's even good vs aggro-control, as long as you can quickly ramp to a threat afterwards. Zombie, however, is just a 2/2 again- a 2/2 which buys your opponent time, at the cost of life, to throw up some kind of defense, or win outright.

So my conjecture is that in the control/combo metagame, which is the only meta you should be playing Suicide in, Duress is a better T1 play than Zombie.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-03-2007, 11:09 PM

Here is my newest list. Yeah its pretty rough right now. I am trying to branch out and experiment a little.

Creatures
4x Bob
4x Hyppie
4x Shade
4x Gator
3x Stromgald crusader

Disruption
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Duress

Removal
3x Jitte
2x Smother

Extra Draw
Night's Whisper x2

Mana and accelerants
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
17x Swamp

SB

4x Dystopia
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Serum Powder

It needs a lot of work, but I think it is going to be interesting. I feel Night's Whispers is underrated and goes nice with the mox. As for the mox count, I can only feign confidence at this point. It is tough, and will probably take more testing. Running 19 creatures plus a little extra draw should keep the threat count sufficent. I am still a bit Gofy paranoid and stuck two Smother in the deck. I want to get a 4th Serum Powder in the SB somehow. As for MBing GY hate, I am right back on the fence.

Moving things around to make Mox better in the deck should be worth it. A faster clock is always nice and puts increased pressure on the opponent. Anyway, as always I appreciate any criticism.

Filipinho

11-04-2007, 12:37 AM

This is the list I run:

18x Swamp

4x Dark Ritual

4x Umezawa's Jitte

2x Smother

4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Order of the Ebon Hand
2x Knight of Stromgald
4x Stromgald Crusader
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter

Duress and Thoughtseize are just to good not to run a set of each.
Jitte is another that is impossible not to run a set. Even being legendary, it's just too good. I still felt the need for more removal, that's why I run 2x Smother. Since I run Bob, Snuff Out was out of question.
I like the pump knights a lot more than Hand of Cruelty. Evasion + pump or initiative + pump is way better than bushido.
I think bob should be in, it helps you refill while being aggressive.
Hyppie helps agains a chalice set for 2 and has evasion. It's also a source of something like card advantage.
I don't like md Negator because I fear UGr Thresh, Burn, Red Death too much to run it.

Tacosnape

11-04-2007, 11:47 AM

@Teacup: Filip's right. A set of Duress and a set of Thoughtseize.

@Filip: No 1-drops, No 2-drops of toughness higher than 1, and no Chrome Moxes is going to get you slaughtered by Vial Goblins. Those Jittes aren't going to bail you out for a second because you're rarely if ever going to get a Jitte equipped and getting counters.

Plus it's just going to wreak havoc with your curve. You almost have to run Chrome Mox -or- Carnophage or Sarcomancy.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-04-2007, 11:56 AM

@Teacup: Filip's right. A set of Duress and a set of Thoughtseize.

Even with my 4 Hyppies? I think I could up it to 3, but at a certain point I will probably have too much discard. Then again I am running moxes..... Meh, I am starting to wonder about Hyppie.

Ozymandias

11-04-2007, 12:53 PM

LordEvilTeaCup

11-04-2007, 01:07 PM

In a certain sense, Hyppie is the best creature in the deck, in that an active Hyppie is the creature most likely to win you the game. Shade can lay the beats, but it costs you mana to do so, and it gives the opponent time to recover if you pump the shade. Bob is a solid CA machine, but he might just draw you land, and he's sometimes too fragile to beat down with. But Hyppie can attack, evasively, while simultaneously putting a damaging effect on the opponent, and do so with no further mana investment.

Turn 1 Ritual-Hypnotic Specter has been a solid play since Alpha, because it demands an immediate answer or a loss. That means a deck like Thresh or Landstill has to immediately have an answer to Specter, or lose. Because they will be losing a card every turn, and you will be backing it up with more discard to remove answers. Shade can even fly across with the Jitte vs. aggro strategies, which is often your only sane path to victory.

I would say this is all very reasonable. Plus a certain amount of redundancy is nice for consistency purposes. Although the Jump Knight somewhat takes Hyppie's place evasion wise but yeah. Thanks for the confidence boost. Things start to look shakey when you change things around in your deck.

Anyway, anyone else liking Night's Whispers? I don't think it is bad as a 2 of to go along with Bob. Meh, my old Ug days could be clouding my judgment.

Filipinho

11-04-2007, 04:56 PM

@tacosnape: I agree goblins isn't a good match up. But I don't think replacing 2x pump knights with 2x Hand of Cruelty is going to make much difference. It's too random to say it improves. Also it makes other matches worse.
Now that goblin is decreasing with the ascension of Thresh, I don't know. I'd rather keep the pump knights.

The 4x Engineered Plague SB are just enough to make g2 a lot better.

Don't forget you can discard lackey with Thoughtseize. Also the initiative from the knights is really interesting. Specially with Jitte.

I'd like to place Chrome Moxes, but what would you drop for them?

LordEvilTeaCup

11-04-2007, 09:23 PM

I'd like to place Chrome Moxes, but what would you drop for them?

You drop swamps for moxes. Concerning the goblins, Mogg Fanatic is a concern for me as well. Not to big of a deal, but I would have to be careful what creature I dropped off the mox/rit. I don't care how good a first turn Bob is, if they just sac a mogg... Still, serum powder with engineered plague should put a crink in their plans...

Also, looking back at some posts I would like to comment on card draw in Sui Black. Although there are plenty of bad topdecks in this deck, refilling your hand with threats is strong. Creature Removal is very common so anything that gets more creatures into your hands is by no means weak imo. This is why I feel Night's whispers is not as bad as some people think, especially if you are playing mox. I have been goldfishing with my build lately and I feel the two Whispers make my deck feel more consistent. I am not dead set on them, but I feel this card did not get a fair shake. Two cards for two life is powerful, and of course you would run it only after Bob found his place in the deck. About Bob too, he will be getting hits in most games especially if he is casted turn 1. Yeah he is never going to hit for more than 2 without a jitte, but no way does he slow your deck down all the time. More often or not he will get to swing. Most removal in the format that would target him, would have gotten rid of everything else in the deck besides the Jump night. Thus his fragility is not too much of a burden except against Goblins.

Edit: Meh, never mind... I take back what I said about Night's Whispers. Usually when I had it in my hand, I would rather lay down a threat. Instead of Night's Whispers, using 20 critters should be enough.

Edit 2: Heh, I apologize for the ever increasing post. Anyway I was looking at the meta game that was at the MLO and I feel Sui Black could have performed quite well. I was wondering what other peoples' thoughts were concerning this.

Galroth

11-10-2007, 01:49 AM

@ Filip

EvilTea is right on the Chrome Mox replacement. You cut land. However, be weary. My general rule is 3x mox is 2x land. They aren't always an easy drop. My current configuration is 15x Swamp 3x Chrome Mox 4x Dark Ritual... very similar to what I think yours should be. However I also run 4x Wasteland (which really is there for the ld purposes (I also run a higher curve)). I think you would be safe going to 16x Swamp and 2x Chrome Mox though.

Also, I would rework your creature base a little. It has alot of standard creatures in it, however it's just not dynamic enough. There are alot of great configurations recently discussed. Teacup's and Taco's are both fairly well tuned options in two very different directions. You might also look at Technogeek's; the white splash for Jotun Grunt is hot, though I'm still not convinced the just 4x Carnophage is the way to go. (Techno, any more development on your list lately?) The creature base is easily the most difficult portion of tuning suicide black. It determines the direction the rest of your deck is taking. Good luck.

@ Teacup - I like the new deck list. Honestly, it reminds me of mine. It's lacking the Land destruction element, option for more creature control instead (sinkholes and wastelands versus Jittes and smothers). Other than that it's pretty much 3x Stromgald Crusader versus 3x Jailer. This is still the choice I constantly mull over the most. Crusader is undoubtedly a nice solid creature. I'm just hoping for something that can win a game in itself. Jailer and Plague spitter can do that. But they're not always solid options. Shriekmaw as a 2x had me interested for a bit. Not sold though, especially if you're running Jittes and Smothers. Sometimes I think about Grinning Demon just for the sheer muscle. Even Skittering Skirge as a 2x might not be bad, it's suicide black just get the damned thing killed (or pitch it to mox). Just one more good creature... that's all I think suicide black really needs to be pushed to tier 1. Give me one more creature on level with Shade, Confidant, Negator or Hyppie.

I'm not sold on Night's Whisper either. You gain 1 card for the cost of 2 mana and 2 life. Suicide black wants tempo. This might not be such a bad draw later on. But I don't think it's ever helping you to the win. Most of the time I'd rather it was a piece of disruption in my opening hand, or another creature to beat with. Skeletal Scrying on the other hand does have a bit more late game power than Night's Whisper. It couldn't be run as more than a 2x. Honestly, I'm not sure suicide black can handle any more strain to its life total than what is currently in the deck.

@ Taco

Ever test Swords of Fire and Ice out? 3x Jitte and 2x Swords is pretty hot. I'd push for Lake of the Dead in there to help ensure early equips, but we know where that discussion goes.

Illissius

11-10-2007, 10:14 AM

EvilTea is right on the Chrome Mox replacement. You cut land. However, be weary. My general rule is 3x mox is 2x land. They aren't always an easy drop.

Chrome Mox cuts down on the amount of gas you have when you use it; the more lands you use alongside it, the fewer options you'll have available to pitch, and the less gas you'll have left over after you do. Is using more land and potentially not having to play the Mox (making it a dead draw), while incurring the above drawbacks, better than occasionally having to pitch things to Mox when you really don't want to? (My instinct would be that it's not, hence the question.)

SoFI on a pump knight is all kinds of awesome (which doesn't necessarily equal "a good idea in Suicide Black"). Protection from red, white, blue, "target nonblack creature", and with sufficient mana, Tarmogoyf. That's every color besides Smother.

Filipinho

11-10-2007, 01:37 PM

I've added the Chrome Mox es.
My list now is:

16x Swamp
4x Chrome Mox

4x Dark Ritual

4x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach

2x Order of the Ebon Hand
2x Knight of Stromgald
4x Stromgald Cruzader
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter

The deck became a lot more aggressive.

@Galroth: What would you consider a solid creature base?

LordEvilTeaCup

11-10-2007, 07:00 PM

@ Filip
I'm not sold on Night's Whisper either. You gain 1 card for the cost of 2 mana and 2 life. Suicide black wants tempo. This might not be such a bad draw later on. But I don't think it's ever helping you to the win. Most of the time I'd rather it was a piece of disruption in my opening hand, or another creature to beat with. Skeletal Scrying on the other hand does have a bit more late game power than Night's Whisper. It couldn't be run as more than a 2x. Honestly, I'm not sure suicide black can handle any more strain to its life total than what is currently in the deck.

Yeah, I dropped Night's Whisper for +1 Duress and +1 Stromgald Crusader. I keep trying to fool myself into thinking the whisper is good. There were a few games it was pretty nice, but usually it just clogged up my mana when I could have just been laying down threats. With 20 creatures (perhaps too high), you really don't have to worry about a lack of threats. Concerning the Crusader, I strongly believe he is the strongest choice after you put all the usual suspects in your deck. Actually, let me refine that. I feel he is the strongest choice if you do NOT utilize wastelands and sinkholes. He seriously increases the deck's hunger for black mana. Protection from Stp is pretty huge, and his flying ability shines with the Jitte. He is a better turn 1 or 2 play than the Shade in most cases. A mox build needs critters who like to be dropped early to take advantage of the tempo. The one B mana to give him evasiveness is not too terrible of a burden (provided no wastelands.) Also although a bit rare, turn 2 evasive swingage with the Jitte is amazing. Stromgald is generally amazing with the jitte period.

If your deck uses the LD package, then perhaps there are better options than the Crusader. I haven't really tested mox builds with LD and the various creature options extensively, so I don't feel qualified to speculate there.

@Filipinho: I realize the question wasn't directed at me, but if you don't mind I would like to suggest the Gator. He is made for aggresive fast decks such as the mox build, and I don't feel this deck can get the job done without him.

Sigar

11-11-2007, 11:33 AM

2x Order of the Ebon Hand
2x Knight of Stromgald
4x Stromgald Cruzader
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter

The deck became a lot more aggressive.

Erhm. That is not aggressive in any way. Dark Confidant + the pump knights are totally controllish. If you want to be aggressive run eight of the 2/2 zombies for one black mana.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-11-2007, 07:15 PM

Erhm. That is not aggressive in any way. Dark Confidant + the pump knights are totally controllish. If you want to be aggressive run eight of the 2/2 zombies for one black mana.

That defeats the purpose of running the mox. Negator is better suited for early tempo boosts and brings the aggression all by himself.

PointDexter

11-16-2007, 04:35 PM

Tacosnape

11-16-2007, 04:56 PM

I definitely agree with the decision to run UrborgTOY if you run Wasteland. However, since you're running Smallpox in your maindeck list, why not up this count to 2? In the rare instance you draw both one can be pitched or sacrificed to Smallpox.

Also, 4 Crypts and 4 Extirpates seems excessive and redundant. If there's enough graveyard stuff to worry about, Leyline might be the better choice here.

Michael Keller

11-17-2007, 11:38 AM

Hello,
my deck is not so suicide - but Black enough - so if I am in wrong thread Im so sorry - but I would be really happy for any comment on it:

// Lands
17 [UNH] Swamp
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [4E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
2 [CS] Stromgald Crusader

// Spells
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [US] Duress
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [B] Sinkhole
4 [TSP] Smallpox
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

- almost no Goblins in the field
- what about Perish in SB - against Loam / Terrageddon / ******** / Ench / Trinity ...???

Thx 4 your ideas :smile:

1. Run Smother over Edict - or a combination of both (4/2, Smother). It is strictly superior in hitting Goyf.

2. Your "4" ofs in the board are overkill. If there are almost no Goblins in the field, why run Engineered Plague (or better yet, why four?!?) Goblins ahs disapppeared. Albeit still one of the greatest decks ever, it just hasn't made a big showing recently.

3. Cut it to three Crypts.

4. Smallpox is a more control-based asset. You would be inherently destroying your own creatures - or "time-walking" your opponent as you've played no threats. Pox...belongs in Pox.

5. I see why you included Urborg - and that's up to you - but I would actually cut it and one Swamp. Run the 16/4 (Swamp to Waste ratio) count. You run Ritual as well.

6. While Dark Confidant "bobbing" into land is always a great thing, it isn't necessarily that great when you are purposely trying to find ways to kill your opponent - and mana flooding yourself isn't good.

Here's what my list would look like:

//1cc
[4x] Dark Ritual
[4x] Duress

//2cc
[4x] Nantuko Shade
[4x] Dark Confidant
[4x] Sinkhole
[4x] Smother
[4x] Stromgald Crusader
[4x] Hymn to Tourach
[2x] Umezawa's Jitte
[2x] Diabolic Edict

//3cc
[4x] Hypnotic Specter

//Mana Source
[16x] Swamp
[4x] Wasteland

//Sideboard
[4x] Phyrexian Negator
[3x] Perish
[3x] Extirpate
[3x] Tormod's Crypt
[2x] Engineered Plague

- Hymn is major card advantage for you and card disadvantage for them.
- Smother hits Goyf straight on, and Edict is a good compliment.
- Perish is a one-sided Wrath.
- Negator is just a house.
- More pro-white in Crusader.
- Jitte speeds up the kill and helps with Bob.

Thoughts. I mean, I ran this at the U.M.T.G Weekend in Syracuse both days and placed 2nd in Swiss standings and 9th respectively Day One and Two. Hopefully it will work for you.

galeng

11-18-2007, 12:16 PM

Kadaj

11-18-2007, 12:28 PM

I can see why your matchup against goblins sucks. Cards in your main deck are very bad against goblins and aggro decks in general: Pithing Needle, Diabolic Edict, Vendetta, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Negator, and Wretch for example. You need dark confidant's for sure (a threat for every deck) and duress (its good against 95% of the metagame so suck it up). Don't be so worried about goblins. It's becoming an inviable deck due to being an auto lose vs 75% of the metagame (combo, thresh, and goyf decks).

The is arguably the most false thing I've ever heard. First off, Negator is far from bad against Aggro. Ask Anwar about that if you remain skeptical, but seriously, a huge 5/5 for 3 is far from bad against aggro, despite the potential drawback. Second, Goblins does not autolose to anything. Literally, Goblins doesn't have a single matchup where it can't win. It does, admittedly, have several matchups that are unfavorable (TES springs to mind), but claiming that it autoloses to Threshold and decks that just happen to have Goyf in them is completely falacious.

It is true that the Threshold matchup got worse with the printing of goyf, but the matchup remains similarly poised. A good goblins player can still, very easily, beat Threshold, despite Goyf. The same principles can be applied to the "Goyf Aggro" matchup as well.

At any rate, not worrying about the Goblins matchup is one way to approach this, and it very well might just be better to SB 4 Plagues and hope for the best, because even with a MD aimed at Goblins you're not going to be winning that match with any immense consistency.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-18-2007, 03:07 PM

The is arguably the most false thing I've ever heard. First off, Negator is far from bad against Aggro. Ask Anwar about that if you remain skeptical, but seriously, a huge 5/5 for 3 is far from bad against aggro, despite the potential drawback. Second, Goblins does not autolose to anything. Literally, Goblins doesn't have a single matchup where it can't win. It does, admittedly, have several matchups that are unfavorable (TES springs to mind), but claiming that it autoloses to Threshold and decks that just happen to have Goyf in them is completely falacious.

QFT. Yeah people got to stop dissing Mr. Gator. He is cool, hip, and happening. A little creature removal goes a long way with him too. Speaking of which, I would like to revisit the debate on how much removal should be MB'ed. The addition of Thoughtseize has lessened the need for it, but I don't believe its time to just rely on seize and jitte for all your answers. Besides, removing creatures clears up blockers and allows you to punch through for more. We have some evasive dudes, but all your other creatures would like to be chump free. Gator can pile through stuff, but you don't want to have to do that too many times. The shade will outright kill your opponent unblocked, and even Bob will get in on some more action.

Also, lets face it. There are plenty of other decks that can race us and drop just as nasty creatures as we ever could. Another thing I would like to note, is a few baddies that are played and are game breaking but whom are untouched by smother. I am mainly speaking of Tomb Stalker and Rakdos Pit dragon. Yeah the jitte can take care of business and so could seize, but a few answers to them would be nice. Meh, perhaps its unreasonable to think of answers for stalker when he requires unique answers that are are suboptimal otherwise. Still, I think we should take another look at Snuff Out, vendetta, and ghastly demise once again. Snuff Out is probably still king, but I am starting to like vendetta due to it not killing you when top deck with Bob and is yet another answer to lackey. I am citing the answer to lackey as more of an aside, but it still should be mentioned.

Holo_rip

11-18-2007, 03:56 PM

As a long time player of sui black (and now is controlish version Deadguy Al), i would say that a removal suit that looks like this :
- 3 thoughtseize
- 4 smother
- 3 jitte
- 3 edict

is enought.
now, a question that i haven't answer, how to manage CB ? sometime it is online turn 2, and we can't get throught. I personnally have splash another color (white) to have EE as removal / CB hoser, plus STP for sure. But what's your opinion (yeah i know, i'm REALLY paranoid about CB but well, my meta is full of this thing..)?

Holo.

Baumeister

11-18-2007, 05:58 PM

Okay, I've been working on this deck a little more and I'd like to post my newest list for the more controllish version of this deck.

Lands (22)
18x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Creatures (16)
4x Stromgald Crusader
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter

Other Spells (22)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Smother
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
2x ????

A few changes:

Lands - I upped the lands to hit land drops, utilize Wasteland, and pump my pump critters

Stromgald Crusader - I used to use Wretched Anurid but I recently switched to Stromgald Crusader. I'm not extremely pleased with it, but it fits that slot better than the Anurid. It flies and it uses up my extra mana, so it's not bad.

Nantuko Shade, Phyrexian Negator, and Hypnotic Specter - The usual creatures for Suicide Black. Hypnotic Specter has been knocked a little bit lately, but I'll run him just for those crazy first turn Ritual, Specter, go turns until Wizards prints something better.

Thoughtseize - This list doesn't run a lot of painful critters (Dark Confidant and Anurid) so Thoughtseize fits here well replacing both Duress and Vendetta.

Smother - My main removal of choice. Kills nearly every relevant creature in the format right now, especially Tarmogoyf.

Sinkhole - Yes, I still run it because control and ***** are big right now. Destroys fragile mana bases and allows for big tempo boosts. This deck runs four Wastelands and combined with four Sinkholes, they can create a positive board position in the first few turns.

Hymn to Tourach - 2 for 1. Enough said.

The two open slots can be anything depending the metagame. Jitte, Chrome Mox, Smallpox (meh...), etc. You could add two 4cc creatures there such as Phyrexian Scuta to help with ***** and control. Basically whatever makes you happy.

@TeaCup - I like using Smother because it hits other black creatures (Deadguy still runs them). I know it doesn't hit Tombstalker, but you're most likely going to pull that with Thoughtseize. Snuff Out is good, but I don't like that it doesn't hit black creatures which can be frusterating. It might work well as a two-of.

Tacosnape

11-19-2007, 03:52 AM

This deck runs four Wastelands and combined with four Sinkholes, they can create a positive board position in the first few turns.

I still suggest running 1-2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in any Sui Black build with 4 Wastelands. Urborg/Waste/5 nonland cards is a keepable hand. Swamp/Waste/5 nonland cards isn't.

I can see why your matchup against goblins sucks. Cards in your main deck are very bad against goblins and aggro decks in general: Pithing Needle, Diabolic Edict, Vendetta, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Negator, and Wretch for example. You need dark confidant's for sure (a threat for every deck) and duress (its good against 95% of the metagame so suck it up). Don't be so worried about goblins. It's becoming an inviable deck due to being an auto lose vs 75% of the metagame (combo, thresh, and goyf decks).

You're off your rocker. This is an example of people getting complete misconceptions about the format by reading something and blowing it way out of proportions. Goblins isn't the top deck in the format anymore, agreed. And half the people in Legacy aren't playing it. However, it's still a top tier deck. It can, as was said already, defeat any deck in Legacy, and it's getting better at doing so all the time now that the hate for Goblins is dropping.

Second, Goblins is pretty strong against combo right now. It's got a good Ichorid match and a fair Cephalid Breakfast match which would be much better if not for Abeyance. TES might be one of its worst matchups, but on occasion a Lackey with Wasteland backup will get the job done.

Third, Goblins does not capitulate to Threshold. Red Threshold is favored against Goblins, yes, but this isn't an auto-loss. U/G Threshold can struggle against Goblins, and UGW is still a pretty even battle.

Fourth, and more on topic, your perceptions as to what cards are good in Sui Black vs. Goblins isn't entirely dead on either. Pithing Needle is ungodly strong in this matchup due to its ability to shut off Fanatic, Incinerator, SGC, and Vial. Also, Edict and Vendetta are solid against Goblins.

galeng

11-19-2007, 08:41 AM

Ok firstly i play goblins, and that's why I posted this.

You're off your rocker. This is an example of people getting complete misconceptions about the format by reading something and blowing it way out of proportions. Goblins isn't the top deck in the format anymore, agreed. And half the people in Legacy aren't playing it. However, it's still a top tier deck. It can, as was said already, defeat any deck in Legacy, and it's getting better at doing so all the time now that the hate for Goblins is dropping.
Not sure why you say im wrong then say exactly what ive proved in my post but ok.

Second, Goblins is pretty strong against combo right now. It's got a good Ichorid match and a fair Cephalid Breakfast match which would be much better if not for Abeyance. TES might be one of its worst matchups, but on occasion a Lackey with Wasteland backup will get the job done.

Wow. I have two words for you. Show me. But seriously goblins have no chance against any combo that knows what they're doing.

Third, Goblins does not capitulate to Threshold. Red Threshold is favored against Goblins, yes, but this isn't an auto-loss. U/G Threshold can struggle against Goblins, and UGW is still a pretty even battle.

Thresh shouldn't struggle with goblins when they have pyroclasm, lightning bolt, chain lightning, 5/6's for :1: :g: and counter backup. I'm generally talking about the good builds here.

Fourth, and more on topic, your perceptions as to what cards are good in Sui Black vs. Goblins isn't entirely dead on either. Pithing Needle is ungodly strong in this matchup due to its ability to shut off Fanatic, Incinerator, SGC, and Vial. Also, Edict and Vendetta are solid against Goblins.

Well by my experience of playing goblins against these I have to say right off the bat that Pithing Needle is the most over rated card ever. Shutting off one card in the entire deck is plain horrible, and not even shutting it down but preventing it from using an activated ability. It's usually the misconception that goblins need vial to run or incinerator to get damage through that makes people think its a good sideboard. You didn't even argue your point to why edict is good against goblins. That one I'm really puzzled about.

Eldariel

11-19-2007, 09:26 AM

Not sure why you say im wrong then say exactly what ive proved in my post but ok.

Because every point you made is more or less false.

Wow. I have two words for you. Show me. But seriously goblins have no chance against any combo that knows what they're doing.

Cephalid Breakfast has serious issues with the uncounterable Fanatics and Incinerators along with artifact removal that Goblins pack, Vialed Stingscourgers, etc. Without Abeyance, going off is a pain for them. Ichorid doesn't like having its Bridges removed; a race where Goblins are favoured.

Thresh shouldn't struggle with goblins when they have pyroclasm, lightning bolt, chain lightning, 5/6's for :1: :g: and counter backup. I'm generally talking about the good builds here.

I'm not sure what Threshold plays Chain Lightning, but none I know and Pyroclasm MD is horrible since Goblins aren't seeing much play and it sucks against all the other decks in the format. Sure, Red Thresh is favoured, especially after board, but even just one Vial can just win the game for Goblins, and just drawing enough lands allows Gobs to flood the board with small men in one turn.

Well by my experience of playing goblins against these I have to say right off the bat that Pithing Needle is the most over rated card ever. Shutting off one card in the entire deck is plain horrible, and not even shutting it down but preventing it from using an activated ability. It's usually the misconception that goblins need vial to run or incinerator to get damage through that makes people think its a good sideboard. You didn't even argue your point to why edict is good against goblins. That one I'm really puzzled about.

Shutting off Vial makes LD much, MUCH more effective against Goblins. That shouldn't really be rocket science. As for Edict, at least it still kills the turn 1 Lackey and such. It isn't the best, but it isn't horrible either. And shutting off Incins, Fanatics, Ports and SCGs can all win the game at certain sitiuations. Needle is definitely a premiere card against Gobs.

technogeek5000

11-19-2007, 12:32 PM

electrolyze

11-19-2007, 12:37 PM

the list looks really different but if you see the rest of the t8 you can understand why that build has won. 4 loam decks and 2 other grave depending decks or something like that:p all with goyf.

Slayer001

11-19-2007, 01:06 PM

Hi, I'm new to legacy and I want to run a Black sui build at a tournament

the build I want to use, comments are welcome :)

3x Urborg
3x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained mire
10x Swamp

4x Dark ritual
4x Bob
4x negator
4x shade
3x jitte
3x carnophage
4x duress
4x hymn
3x diabolic edict
4x smother
3x hippie

SB:

4x leyline of the void/planar void
4x engineered plague
4x dystopia
3x pithing needle

what about withered wretch, black knight, sinkhole, stromgald crusader

Eldariel

11-19-2007, 01:23 PM

Justso you all know, a BG sui list took first place in a 52 person tourney at belgium.

Black
Black Knight 2
Chainer's Edict 1
Dark Confidant 4
Dark Ritual 4
Diabolic Edict 2
Hymn to Tourach 4
Hypnotic Specter 4
Nantuko Shade 3
Sinkhole 3
Word of Command 2

Green
Naturalize 2
Tarmogoyf 4

Multicolor
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 2

Artifact
Umezawa's Jitte 2

Land
Bayou 4
Forest 2
Polluted Delta 3
Swamp 6
Wasteland 4
Wooded Foothills 2
Totaal: 60

Sideboard

Cabal Therapy 2
Diabolic Edict 1
Engineered Plague 2
Extirpate 2
Leyline of the Void 4
Withered Wretch 2
Pithing Needle

Enjoy

Word of Command?! That just made my day. But yes, green splash for Tarmogoyf looks extremely solid and Edicts make for solid removal. Black Knight was chosen for the Jittes, I suppose. It runs quite a high creature count. The lack of Duress/Seize seems like a very clear mistake though. Also, I wonder if 2 MD Forests didn't screw his mana up... Finally, Naturalize is the same slot as Needle, it's quite good in the meta.

technogeek5000

11-23-2007, 12:23 AM

I want to bring up the white splash again. Tarmogoyf is still dominant and the white spalsh gives you 2 great answers to it(grunt and stp) grunt also randomly fucks over decks like ichorid and landstill and stp is less narrow then any piece of removal mono black has to offer.

Im thinking of giving up the LD route and i am currently considering running mishra's factory in place of my wastelands. They make mana and in the mid/end game they are good beaters that dont die to mass removal like deed and WOG/Damnation.

Osse

11-23-2007, 01:01 AM

Im thinking of giving up the LD route and i am currently considering running mishra's factory in place of my wastelands. They make mana and in the mid/end game they are good beaters that dont die to mass removal like deed and WOG/Damnation.

Unless the guy is in some situation where he has to blow up deed on his turn (Aka, when he's losing) this doesn't matter. Also, who plays WOG/Damnation and doesn't lose to Wasteland more than Factory?

Tacosnape

11-23-2007, 02:04 AM

I want to bring up the white splash again. Tarmogoyf is still dominant and the white spalsh gives you 2 great answers to it(grunt and stp) grunt also randomly fucks over decks like ichorid and landstill and stp is less narrow then any piece of removal mono black has to offer.

In addition to Jotun Grunt being a flat out lousy card, neither of these are a good reason to splash white. STP's drawback of your opponent gaining life is too crucial in a deck that gets worse the longer the game progresses, and Grunt just blows compared to other creatures you could splash for, like Tarmogoyf itself.

The only reason to consider white, as far as I'm concerned, is Vindicate. And at that point you might as well be playing a different deck.

technogeek5000

11-23-2007, 10:28 AM

Ok jotun grunt isnt a lousy card... it shuts down threshold by itself, kills ichorid, and like you said about leyline, does atleast something to almost every deck out there. Plus it beats for 4.

Lets say i dont want to drop 140+ dollars on a playset of goyfs in addition to 2 more bayous, then would you consider the white splash worth playing. I did top 8 with it in the first tournament i ever brought it to.

Tacosnape

11-23-2007, 03:39 PM

Ok jotun grunt isnt a lousy card... it shuts down threshold by itself, kills ichorid, and like you said about leyline, does atleast something to almost every deck out there. Plus it beats for 4.

Jotun Grunt -is- a lousy card. It might be solid against Threshold/Tarmogoyf, but Threshold will recover once Grunt goes away, and that's where the not sucking ends. Grunt blows against Ichorid for the same reasons Wretch blows against Ichorid - Too little, too late. Grunt also makes you unable to effectively run other graveyard hate without shutting him down as a threat.

On top of that, you're talking about a deck that only loses when its threats get removed. Jotun Grunt removes itself. It will almost never beat for 20 on its own, meaning that your opponent can effectively deal with a Grunt/Shade combination with a single STP/Fanatic/Whatever. It's a terrible threat because it kills itself, which this deck cannot afford.

technogeek5000

11-23-2007, 05:43 PM

Umm, against thresh you only need a few turns to win and when you have jotun grunt out its not like thats the only thing your going to be playing. Your also backing that up with other creatures, discard and utility so your succesfully stabilizing while jotun grunt is beating for 4 a turn. Yes grunt evenatually dies, but he gives you enough damage and disruption for 2 mana that its definately worth the investment. Have you tested grunt/the white splash. It works and has the tools to fight off the DTBs and DTWs.

7 Swamp
4 Hippie
4 Dark ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Carnophage
4 Hymn
4 Duress (no thoughtsieze for me, to much life loss)
4 STP
4 Polluted delta
4 Srcubland
3 Bloodstained
3 Mishra's factory
3 Negator
3 Jotun
3 Jitte
2 Black Knight (its a fun card, first strike is absolutely ridiculous in this format)

4 E Plauge
4 Dystopia
4 Planar void
3 Therapy

here is the current list i have been testing. I dropped the LD route as suggested and its been working. Now i have a more reliable creature base, mana base, and 1 more duress. I was also thinking about adding in a singleton Urborg... It would give me a more stable manabase: mishra's producing black and not needing to crack fetches.

Slayer001

11-24-2007, 08:20 AM

I still think the mono B build is the best build, smother kills also almost everything in the format except for exalted angels, and diabolic edict is nice in my build too, I Don't think splashing white for jotün grunt and STP is enough I keep it with Withered Wretch, who also wrecks graveyard ability decks like ichorid and threshhold.

Holo_rip

11-24-2007, 09:44 AM

The thing is, the white splash give you access to answer to enchantement and artifact in the form of vindicate. It also give you access to a wider card pool for you sideboard. Ok, i've always been looking for answer for counterbalance (yeah i know i always said that), and that's why i have splash white in my build (removal suite of : 4 thoughtseize, 2 jitte, 4 vindicate, 3 STP and 3 edict).
For instance, here is my build :
6 swamp
4 scrubland
3 bloodstained mire
3 polluted delta
3 chrome mox
4 dark ritual

4 dark confidant
4 stromgald crusader
3 hypnotic specter
3 nantuko shade
3 phyrexian negator

4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
4 vindicate
3 sword to plowshare
3 diabolic edict
2 umezawa's jitte

Sideboard :
4 planar void
4 engineered plague
4 duress
3 engineered explosive

Holo.

DeepfriedDynamite

11-24-2007, 11:15 AM

I believe that if you run the white splash, then you should not run vindicate because your pushing the splash to far and making your rituals weaker. I myself have been running the green splash so i may be talking out my ass.

For the white builds and mono black builds: Since the aggro matchup has always been harder then combo and control would putting bad moons in your sideboard give you a much better aggro game post-board.

Baumeister

11-24-2007, 11:17 AM

In my opinion, if you're going to splash white, you might as well play Deadguy Ale. That's where the deck will want to go anyway after testing. Vindicate is not really an aggressive card and is more suited to a more controllish build like Deadguy.

Slayer001

11-24-2007, 11:43 AM

I don't believe either that vindicate must be in this deck, we go to another deck called pikula that way, the bad moons i'll try to test out

dunno about the green splash, I only have one tarmogoyf, but i can proxie them to playtest, but I like my mono black version, but i'll defenetely try the green splash out :smile:

Holo_rip

11-24-2007, 12:14 PM

Bad moon is a nono. it is useless when you have no critters, and even with critters it is not that good. So i don't see how it should help you in your control matchup. About the white splash, i used it because it is the more versatile. In my meta we have like 80 % of thresh and others random junk (with thing like 5% of ichorid, 5 % of combo deck). Nearly half the threshold player play with coutertop main or in their sideboard. I recon that the white splash is purely a metagame choice, but i don't want to scoop to someone who land a counterbalance. Vindicate give you creature removal, land removal, enchantement removal, artifact removal, and what you want removal, and that what make it so great.
Talking about "Deadguy" style, i really don't think my deck is a deadguy one, and won't be ever a deadguy one. I want to be the agressor, with utility card like vindicate to trade with random crap. If i were a aggro/contro player, then i'd never use that many creature (17).

Holo.

technogeek5000

11-24-2007, 05:43 PM

Umm i believe he said bad moons in the board for specifically aggro matchups because they are this deck weaker MU's. yes they do nothing against control... so dont side them in against it. I might test it out against the premier aggro decks (goblins, goyf sligh, zoo, survival) and see how it goes... but on paper it seems like a good idea.

Oh yes if your meta is 80% thresh (im gonna except this as a exaggeration... im guessing its more like 35-40... if 1 deck in a metagame is played more then 40% it is no longer viable in that metagame because every single player in that metagame would be packing game-swinging hate to that deck) then the white splash is the way to go and you definately want to fit in 3-4 jotun grunts because they own thresh riduclously hard on their own.

Galroth

11-24-2007, 07:09 PM

Techno - I think dropping the wastelands was the right choice. I still wonder about carnophage, it just seems so weak in comparison to the rest of the deck. The black knights are also a little funny. I can't help but think there's better out there. My first inclination would be to up Negator to 4x. What about shade? I know fetches will decrease the amount of swamps you've got in play, but I think he's still a better option than not. Drop his count so you tend to only see him in late game where it doesn't matter if you have 5 or 7 swamps, he's still huge.

I still think you could get away with running a white 1 drop instead of carnophage. Mother of Rune's protection would be godyl on Negator and Hyppie; even Grunt and Shade it would be sweet with. Best of luck on the list. Keep us updated.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-26-2007, 01:44 AM

I still think you could get away with running a white 1 drop instead of carnophage. Mother of Rune's protection would be godyl on Negator and Hyppie; even Grunt and Shade it would be sweet with. Best of luck on the list. Keep us updated.

Yeah, we talked about this earlier and I feel Mom was dropped way too quick. The arguments against her are pretty sound, but with Shade and Gator she is a great boon. I am leaning towards against, but would like to see some testing.

Filipinho

11-26-2007, 10:50 AM

In the current meta what is best: Bushido or First Strike?
Black Knight or Hand of Cruelty?

Lemuria

11-26-2007, 11:20 AM

In the current meta what is best: Bushido or First Strike?
Black Knight or Hand of Cruelty?

I think that is a preference matter. For me, First Strike + Jitte = pwned!!

Barook

11-26-2007, 11:26 AM

It's also a meta matter - Hand can trade with Mongoose, Knight can't.

But I agree that First Strike is better in general, especially when combined with Equipment.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-27-2007, 01:15 AM

I think that is a preference matter. For me, First Strike + Jitte = pwned!!

I prefer the jump knights to the first strikers myself. Its a tough decision for sure, but I think flying wins here due to it being more evasive. Of course first strike is better for blocking but that is about it. I guess it depends on what you want. Flying will score you more hits 9 times out of 10 though.

Lemuria

11-27-2007, 07:53 AM

One thing that I don't understand is why Smallpox are not being played?

Really, it has everything this deck wants: discard + land destruction + creature removal. It can greatly improve your LD strategy, also, can remove annoying things like mongoose.

I've been trying out this decklist, and I'm having good results with it:

4 Wasteland
12 Swamp
2 Urborg

4 Carnophage
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Sarcomancy

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smallpox
4 Smother
3 Umezawa's Jitte

this deck has:
Great LD plan via wasteland+sinkhole+smallpox
Grat Discard Plan via thoughtseize, hymn, prowler and smallpox
nice removal via smother(wich is the best black removal IMO), Jitte and smallpox.

Smallpox is a really versatile card, and it can be a monster if used properly. I don't mind to lose a creature if I need to kill that goyf or mongoose.
I just think I could run Negator here, but I just don't know what to cut.

Just my 2 cents, fell free to express your hate against Smallpox, if you have any :tongue:

Slayer001

11-27-2007, 08:57 AM

If you play smallpox you better play the deck pox, it takes away the agressive way of the deck, if you have to sac creatures and lands what is not very good with shade and sarcomancy

Soto

11-27-2007, 11:34 AM

4 Wasteland, 4 Sinkhole, 3 Smallpox. Thats 13 LD effects. It's too much i think, you're better off with just the sinkholes. You can take out smother for edicts to kill mongeese.

Tacosnape

11-27-2007, 11:38 AM

Or, you know, you could just board in Dystopia, considering that Mongoose/Tarmogoyf disembowelment is one of the main reasons we run it.

Slayer001

11-27-2007, 04:08 PM

yea I run also Dystopia's in my SB, they are nice but the upkeep can become expensive if they keep dropping those creatures every turn, I also tried with deathmark, he gets the job done also

Tacosnape

11-28-2007, 11:17 PM

yea I run also Dystopia's in my SB, they are nice but the upkeep can become expensive if they keep dropping those creatures every turn, I also tried with deathmark, he gets the job done also

Deathmark's always been one of those cards I love in theory and then can never use. I think this is because that two of the most annoying green creatures in Legacy (Mongoose and Enchantress) have shroud. Also, White creatures are few and far between, and two of the main decks that run them have ways around Deathmark (White Stax has Chalice for 1, Death and Taxes has Karakas.)

Slayer001

11-29-2007, 02:17 PM

yea I know Dystopia is alot better but I don't have them so I made a replacement for a tournament, but as soon as i have them i'll use them :smile:, but you can kill a goyf with it, it had had use, I killed one with it against a goyf sligh deck

Filipinho

12-01-2007, 02:36 AM

After a lot of testing, most games against with NQGw, I've come with this list:

18x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smother
4x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Hand of Cruelty
4x Black Knight
4x Stromgald Crusader
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant

About the mana base:
Chrome Mox proved to be a bad choice. I couldn't feel comfortable with less than 16x Swamps. So I ran 16-4 split, making 20x "land" count, that proved first to be excessibe. The card advantage proved to be really bad, not worthy of the time you bought. I only liked seeing a chrome mox in my hand when I had a Hymn or a Confidant. A first turn Hymn is a very strong play, but that's way too situational to make the inclusion worth (first turn bob is nice too). With 8x 1cc discard, that should be your first turn play.

About the discard outlet:
Without many 1cc slots, the right number is 4-4-4. They are all great, buy you time vs. control and decides games vs. combo.

About Smother:
Running Bob I don't feel comfortable running Snuff Out, which I like best, but Smother kills enough things in the current environment to make it's inclusion worthy. I was getting smashed by goyf without it. Even against NQGw, that runs Nimble Mongoose and Mystical Enforcer (Shroud and ProBlack) it's useful. They usually needle Jitte and Shade leaving you with no other choice against goyf but smother.

About the creatures:
As I've posted before, I abandoned the 1cc 2/2. It just isn't enough anymore. It doesn't put pressure after a t2 goyf. Also because of the life loss, knowing you already have Thoughtseize and Darkconfidant. Sometimes it was too expensive.
Black Knight and Hand of cruelty came in because I lacked */2 in the deck. Against goblins and Goyf Slight, among others, that can really be a problem. The 4-2 split is because of Black Knight's synergy with Jitte.
Hypnotic Specter proved to be a win more card, that's why I dropped him. With all the early discard (Duress, Thoughtseize and Hymn) when he came in there wasn't much left. I'd rather have a ritual, duress (thoughtseize), man than a ritual, Hyppie.
Stromgald Crusader is the best of the pump knights. I tried adding more first strike knights but that proved to be a mistake. Flying is much better, specially with the lack of Hyppie.
Bob and Shade don't need to be commented.

About Jitte:
It's Jitte of Umezawa.

LordEvilTeaCup

12-01-2007, 09:46 AM

About the mana base:
Chrome Mox proved to be a bad choice. I couldn't feel comfortable with less than 16x Swamps. So I ran 16-4 split, making 20x "land" count, that proved first to be excessibe. The card advantage proved to be really bad, not worthy of the time you bought. I only liked seeing a chrome mox in my hand when I had a Hymn or a Confidant. A first turn Hymn is a very strong play, but that's way too situational to make the inclusion worth (first turn bob is nice too). With 8x 1cc discard, that should be your first turn play.

Perhaps Chrome Mox is build dependent, but it has been nothing but amazing in my build. I guess it comes down to whether you are using Gator and Hyppie. Turn 2 Gator or Hyppie is a strong play. Also, you get around Daze so much easier with a mox in your hand. I suppose if you don't have many 3cc plays that you like to power out early it could be less than optimal, but otherwise it is just nuts. I have been having doubts about Hyppie for a long time, but with the mox he is just consistently awesome. With 4 Rituals and 3 Mox, he comes out early frequently and impacts the game like no other.

Slayer001

12-01-2007, 06:59 PM

I run only 10 swamps and also no chrome mox, but bloodstained mire's and wastelands and Urborg, that one is great with wasteland. I'm missing carnophage or sarcomancy in your list they are pretty good one drops and de deck needs him for the explosive start. I think that 4 jittes is to much and i won't run both duress and thoughtseize, Diabolic edict or snuff out have also been very good because you only run smothers for creature removal. andi'm missing some graveyard hate also. Wretch is pretty good maindeck and it is a zombie also

so

-1 jitte
-4 black knight
-4 swamp
-2 hand of cruelty
-2 Duress
+4 polluted delta or bloodstained mires for deck thinning
+3 diabolic edict
+4 sarcomancy
+2 Withered Wretch (very good with all those goyfs around)

but thats my thought, you make what you like offcoarse but this kinda build has done pretty good in my meta, especially with all those goyf around lately :)

Galroth

12-01-2007, 10:49 PM

Chrome Mox also finds homes in builds with sinkhole. Turn 1 sinkhole, turn 2 Gator or Hyppie is the kinda moves sui needs to be competitive.

LordEvilTeaCup

12-02-2007, 12:27 PM

Chrome Mox also finds homes in builds with sinkhole. Turn 1 sinkhole, turn 2 Gator or Hyppie is the kinda moves sui needs to be competitive.

Yes I have pondering the awesomeness of turn 1 sinkholes myself. I may just put them back into the deck. I hated all the times where I had what would have been a powerful opening hand if not for Mr. Wasteland. There are just many times where I needed it to be a swamp. Sinkhole, Hymn, and Nantuky to name a few need so much B mana to operate well. This new idea of throwing an Urborg might help.

feuerizer

12-03-2007, 03:07 PM

Nice to see that Sui Black is now in the DtB Forum!

I hope you guys out there have enough time to play and test in order to push the deck to a new level.

Baumeister

12-03-2007, 03:14 PM

So are we saying that Suicide Black needs to explode out of the gate every single game to be competitive now? Does that mean we can stop using Dark Confidant because it's only better mid to late game?

I think that if this deck is going to use Chrome Mox and other accelerators to jump the opponent, we should definately use the more effective creatures such as Nantuko Shade and Hypnotic Specter as opposed to Sarcomancy, Carnophage, and Black Knight (and the like). These creatures have more staying power.

Do you think Tombstalker would work in this deck? He's a powerful creature that can come out for nearly nothing, but I don't know if Suicide can get enough cards in the graveyard to use him well.

technogeek5000

12-03-2007, 04:16 PM

The reason you gave to not play confidant should be switched around to apply to tombstalker. this deck wants to focus on the early, mid game and tombstalker comes down to late for him to matter. Also he is very bad with confidant which is leaps and bounds more important in this deck. Dark confidant is best in the mid game because he comes down early and grabs more cards to play for turns 3-5.

Oh and i finished testing bad moons and im gonna have to say that they suck hard.

Edit: Oh and im realy happy to see this deck moved to DTB. I think that this deck realy does have the tools to do well its just more serious people need to pick up the deck and play it.

Galroth

12-03-2007, 06:19 PM

Another person who loves that sui hit DTB - Maybe it'll get the attention it deserves now :P.

Regarding Mox and Dark Confidant - Bau: your analysis is right in that if you're running Chrome Mox you don't run the small creatures, you want to power out game winning threats they have to deal with. Confidant is one of those creatures however. He goes right along with Specter, Negator and Shade in that category. Actually, one of the best turn 1 plays with Mox is into a confidant. If they don't have an answer to Confidant turn 1, I can almost guarentee your chances of winning are huge. You might also note, that the builds using Sarco, Carno, and pump knights tend to exclude Confidant (check out Taco's list et al.) There's also a reason for this: drawing into those weenies or discard later game is worthless. Instead the mana is better invested in pump creatures. With builds that have Specter, Negator, and the likes (those with fewer but larger creatures, and slightly more disruption elements), Confidant is right at home. You need to draw into those things if your first wave was destroyed.

Regarding Tombstalker: Simply put, he's probably too slow. Tombstalker at earliest will be down turn 3. More commonly he'll be coming down turn 5. Chrome Mox really doesn't help, because even though it nets you one mana, the card you pitch won't be heading to the graveyard. I could see the possibility of Tombstalker as a 2x. Maybe in creature slots 17-18. I'll have to test it a little. I typically run a bit of hate in those slots, like Plague Spitter or Yixlid Jailer, but those are luck-sack plays that aren't as effective in a diverse meta. Tombstalker might be the right choice there. I'll give it a bit more though :).

Peter_Rotten

12-03-2007, 06:35 PM

Just for some clarification: This deck is NOT a DTBeat. It's been classified as a Deck to Watch (DTW). According to this site, there are really only three DTBs which are Goblins, Landstill, and Thresh. All of those three have made multiple appearances in many regions. Sui has made no American T8s.

My gut feeling is that Sui can T8 in less "mature" metas, but will likely be hated out in a field of Goblins, Landstill, Thresh, and Stax decks. But, Hell, maybe I that is just an American point of view.

technogeek5000

12-03-2007, 06:40 PM

Currently im trying to fill the last three slots of my sideboard. what i currently have is:

4 Dystopia
4 Engineered plauge
4 Planar void

I used to run cabal therapy but I came to realize that the card sucks here. In tournament play it was always the weakest card and it was always the card i sided the least. One great strength of sui is that all the cardse in the board are game winning/swinging. The one matchup that my deck needs to improve on is survival/zoo so i was looking at bad moon but the card isnt that good. What does everyone else here think i should put in the last slot of my SB.

Also seing as how this is DTW now we have a different audience so i want to ask what everyone thinks is the best color to splash. Red no longer is good enough because it cant answer goyf. White answers goyf with stp and grunt and green gives you goyf instead of getting rid of it.

Edit: i want to say now that although white gives you the option of vindicate, testing shows that the card does not fit the deck. Its a 3 mana answer that doesnt work well with ritual and if you have gotten rid of the LD approach ,which alot of the new builds have been, it gets alot worse.

Happy Gilmore

12-03-2007, 06:45 PM

Currently im trying to fill the last three slots of my sideboard. what i currently have is:

4 Dystopia
4 Engineered plauge
4 Planar void

I used to run cabal therapy but I came to realize that the card sucks here. In tournament play it was always the weakest card and it was always the card i sided the least. One great strength of sui is that all the cardse in the board are game winning/swinging. The one matchup that my deck needs to improve on is survival/zoo so i was looking at bad moon but the card isnt that good. What does everyone else here think i should put in the last slot of my SB.

Also seing as how this is DTW now we have a different audience so i want to ask what everyone thinks is the best color to splash. Red no longer is good enough because it cant answer goyf. White answers goyf with stp and grunt and green gives you goyf instead of getting rid of it.

Green splash ftw, but then I don't think the deck could be considered the same deck but maybe I'm wrong. Nightwolf9 has been playing around with a suicide variant that plays goyf which is extremely scary every time I've seen it played. I'll see if he is willing to post his list.

Galroth

12-04-2007, 01:44 AM

@ Peter Rotten - Forgive any unclarity. I think everyone here understands it is not a deck to beat, rather when the acronym DTB was used, it was in reference to the DTB forum.

I also wanted to voice opinion that I believe Suicide Black has a better change against the top tier decks in our meta than the many various decks which compose the lower tiers. I hold two reasons for this opinion. First, suicide black has possibly the best hate tools against the top tier decks, and it it sideboards for these decks while foregoing the lower tiers often giving it an edge against top placing decks, more so than it would against many less commonly played decks. Second, suicide black has had greatest issue with fast aggro decks and burn. These decks see little play in metas that are more 'mature'. Suicide black is so much more at home ripping apart control, combo and even aggro-control. In contrast Goblins, Landstill, and Threshold positively feast on less mature combos.

Of course, much of this may change if the top tier decks began to run hate in their boards for suicide black.

Filipinho

12-04-2007, 01:22 PM

I toy here, and there, and just can't keep a list for more than one day.
This list is playing really well. I like it's mana curve a lot.

16x Swamp
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Diabolic Edict
4x Carnophage
4x Dark confidant
4x Withered Wretched
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Hypnotic Specter

Most of my testing was against NQG and Armageddon Staxx. On the play the staxx was pretty easy. Mox's helped a lot here, the 8x 1cc discard shined also. But they have hands that just can't be beaten without a FoW. Having 1, 2 and 3cc creatures is needed.
7-3 record

Against NQGw the Wretched was really good. Most times they answered immediately to it. Needle or StP. Sometimes top decked (oh luck...). But when he had a turn or 2, he did the dirty job pretty well. 2/3 goyfs and 1/1 Mongooses. Edict was great also. Killing anything even the pro:black Mystical Enforcer. I died out of Confidant one game. I was at three and revealed a Hyppie. ouch.
5-5 record

I think it had good results.

technogeek5000

12-05-2007, 03:05 PM

Even though edict can kill enforcer and geese its probably not better then snuff out or smother. With your build i guess you could run either although with a playset of both bob and snuuf along with TS the loife loss could become a issue. Either way snuff out and smother are probably both better options so you should test them out in your build and see which you like best. Diabolic edict just doesnt seem to cut it anymore.

LordEvilTeaCup

12-05-2007, 05:18 PM

Currently im trying to fill the last three slots of my sideboard. what i currently have is:

4 Dystopia
4 Engineered plauge
4 Planar void

This gives me a very convenient opportunity to advertise Serum Powder. Serum Powder plus Leyline of the Void is really strong, and having higher chances of grabbing some Plagues could be a boon too. Dystopia, EP, and Planar/Leyline are most likely the strongest pieces of SB tech black have available for the current meta. After that, there are 3-4 slots that get a bit tougher to fill with quality answers. With Serum Powder, you skip that and just increase your chances of getting those answers. Of course there problems with the card and its effect is mostly for Leyline of the Void, but increased chances of uncounterable GY hate seems reasonable enough.

Galroth

12-05-2007, 08:30 PM

I'm right on board with LordEvil. If you think you have a sold mainboard that can take most of the lower tier decks, then this is exactly the sideboard I'd be running (and was for quite sometime - I tinker with it still, but it's pretty much the same). It addresses exactly what needs to be addressed.

By far your worst matchups are graveyard decks oriented decks like Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, 43 Lands and even Reanimator. Leyline fixes this.

Red based aggro decks tend to be the next greatest problem. They run a clock a little faster, and direct damage is really bad for Negator, Hyppie, even Confidant. While Goblins doesn't pack much direct damage, it's too incredibly powerful to ignore with a consistent and fast clock. Engineered Plague has long been considered the best hate out there against Goblins. And you'll want it for this matchup.

Finally, while I think the Threshold matchup is roughly even, even with the the inclusion of Tarmogoyf, it is still the most commonly played deck, it often packs direct damage, and is without doubt the single most successful deck in the format right now. Dystopia - you can place money that you'll be boarding this card in more than either of the other cards. While it may not be necesarry to beat Threshold, when I know I'll be playing Thresh probably atleast twice in any moderate to large size tourney, I want to know I'll win those games.

--

I did a little testing with 2x Tombstalker and found that I liked it. The chances of drawing into it with Confidant is rather low and I still haven't lost a game because of it (but I was damn close once). Suicide black can sometimes want for hard hitters. Hypnotic and Confidant are amazing with their abilities, but it takes a bit to see end of game. Even with 4x Shade and 4x Negator, sometimes games just don't end quickly enough. With 2x Tombstalker is was nice to see another huge beater who will put the opponent on a serious clock. The reliability of having a huge beater in play I think has me won over. Thanks to Baumeister for the little push of persuasion to try it.

My creature base is currently:

4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker

I play both 3x Mox and 4x Dark Ritual so these guys tend to come out a little early ;). I've found it's a solid base, much more so than any other configuration of creatures I've tested (and believe me, I've been through them all - wait... not the white splash).

Baumeister

12-05-2007, 08:44 PM

My creature base is currently:

4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker

I play both 3x Mox and 4x Dark Ritual so these guys tend to come out a little early ;). I've found it's a solid base, much more so than any other configuration of creatures I've tested (and believe me, I've been through them all - wait... not the white splash).

That is exactly what I am running right now and I'm pretty satisfied. Although I'm a little nervous with Confidant. Whenever I draw into a Tombstalker, I nearly cry.

Galroth: Do you still run Sinkhole? I think with all your acceleration it fits pretty well. Also, do you run Duress or Thoughtseize?

LordEvilTeaCup

12-05-2007, 09:05 PM

Meh, I would love to fit some top action with Mr. Stalker but it won't fly in this deck. I think the chances of top decking the stalker are enough where I would feel a bit paranoid as well. Its tough, because he is arguably one of the best black creatures ever to see print.

Galroth

12-05-2007, 10:05 PM

Current List (for Baumeister and TeaCup primarily)

Creatures (18)
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker
Discard (12)
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
Land Destruction (8)
4x Sinkhole
4x Wasteland
Mana Sources (22)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
15x Swamp

To answer questions posed:

I do run Sinkhole - the tempo that can be generated with it is what suicide black (in this form, not with the 1cc zombies) needs kn order to seize a winning game state.

I also run both Duress and Thoughtseize. If's part of what gives the deck a winning matchup against almost any combo deck, it also helps to smoothe out the curve of the deck. Which without, was not 'smoothe' enough for my tastes; but then again I'm picky about the curves of anything I'm handling.

Notably I don't run creature removal. I was considering it for awhile, but then thoughtseize came out and I think thoughtseize is and autoinclude. It's more versatile, can preempt opponents creatures (almost like removal), and is crazy good against a great man decks out there. I've written very briefly on this matter before: in summary suicide black is an aggressive proactive deck, removal is less proactive then discard like thoughtseize, and only serves to get rid of creatures that are prohibiting you from attacking. Moreover, several forms of removal are particularly good against specific cards, but are not general enough (like discard or land destruction is) to be really effective all around. I choose to run my removal spells in the sideboard instead. Once you know what you're playing, then you can run an answer for it. Until that point, it's better to have threats in a deck that isn't trying to play the control game.

I should also addend that Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice are perfectly good options with a different suiblack setup as removal that should go maindeck. Not here however. This deck runs less creatures which means less to equip, a higher cc for creatures which means equipment comes on later, and is in less need of it to make its creatures effective as it would be with the 1cc zombies.

This is probably a controversial decision, especially in face of Tarmogoyf running rampant through the format. But Tombstalker helps reinforce this decision. On a more general note, I see less successful pure aggro decks now that Tarmogoyf sees play in almost every aggro-control deck out there and virtually neuters every other small aggro creature that I would typcially run removal for - i.e. I'm actually seeing less of a need for removal in the present meta than in past times.

Dystopia works quite fine anyways ;).

Happy Gilmore

12-05-2007, 11:35 PM

I dont' see how mono black could be better than playing BG for Goyf. You lose practically nothing by doing so. And in reality you make cards like Tombstalker better.

a sample list might look like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Oona's Prowler (I personally love this guy) just don't play him in a metagame with a lot of ichorid >_<
3 Tombstalker

4 Hymn to Torach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
3 Cabal Therapy
2 ?

4 Dark Ritual
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Swamps

Galroth

12-06-2007, 12:16 AM

While I'm not going to make as definitive a statement as mono-black is better than a green splash, I think I'll list a few of the reasons it's quite possible to think so.

Abuse of Dark Ritual - Negator and Hypnotic are likely the two most effective creatures for this, and neither is in the list you drew up.
Manabase - Fetches can be stifled and cause you to lose precious life in a deck that already runs Thoughtseize and Confidant. Self inflicted life loss really can make a difference.
More importantly Wasteland isn't really as viable an option which paired with Sinkhole offers a unique disruption strategy that can actually be effective in suicide black, mainly because no other deck effectively pairs huge accelerated beats with that kind of tempo disruption.
Chrome Mox isn't as effective, which cuts your acceleration package slightly.Almost worth noting is that you bypass all the hate directed at the single most influential card in the format, which incidentally is the only green card you're splashing for. That's a little absurd to me. Or maybe goyf is just that powerful. I'd think splashing for a color with other good options available would be the superior options (something akin to the white splash).

Is just goyf truely so much better than Negator, Specter, Shade, or Confidant that he requires a splash and the aforementioned drawbacks?

I'm not really certain how Tombstalker is better in BG goyf? Play Green death if this is your preference. Berserk and Rancor are worth the inclusion if you splash green.

cheddercaveman

12-06-2007, 09:18 AM

Does anyone play a version that is closer to the deck lists from PTQ Flash.dec? I don't remember the lists off the top of my head right now, but I know that they ran 8 2/2s for :b: and then plenty of solid 2 drops too. This is along with the usual suite of disruption (ie Hymn to Tourach, Duress, etc). And then it ran jitte for clock speed and versatility. I'd say this might give the deck a much better aggresive clock which is always a plus. Personally with this sort of build I'd go with maybe 4-8 removal is all. Thoughts?

Baumeister

12-06-2007, 11:20 AM

@ CheddarCaveman: That deck got played a lot more when there were more aggresive decks running around. True, it is slightly faster, but the 2/2's for :b: are kind of underwhelming after turn two. Nantuko Shade and Phyrexian Negator, while they come down a turn or two later, have way more staying power and can end the games by themsleves. Plus, the clock on the more controllish deck is not that much slower than the weenie versions thanks to explosive starts from Chrome Mox and Dark Ritual.

@ Galroth: Have you thought about dropping the fourth Thoughtseize for an additional swamp? This deck always seems pretty mana hungry and I think 20 lands plus 3 Chrome Moxes would allow you a little more stability. Besides, I never thought of Chrome Mox as a one-for-one replacement for lands, and I like playing 22 lands in this deck.

Slayer001

12-06-2007, 12:37 PM

Baumeister

12-06-2007, 04:14 PM

Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth is amazing with wastelands, phyrexian negator is not good with all those thresh and goyfs around, you better take the fast 1 black mana cost carnophage, tombstalker is not good in this deck if you run dark confidants, and without the confidants it is to slow.

Wow. You offer no input as to why these statements are true. Would you like to explain a little bit? There is a lot of testing by multiple people that proves Negator is indeed good against many decks which is why he has become a near staple of this deck. Why should I play the one-casting-cost 2/2's? You offer no reasons. Tombstalker is a pretty good late game creature which is why he's a 2-of and Confidant doesn't actually speed up the deck; he just draws you into more cards.

Slayer001

12-06-2007, 04:27 PM

Uhm. i'm not saying Negator is bad, but with all those tarmogoyfs around he isn't as good anymore as he used to be. I played him also when i first had this build, but when tarmo came in thresh, I cut him. tarmo is easily a 5/6 and do you want to sac 5 permanents. its just my opinion and I have tested also alot. you could put him SB against ***** and goyf sligh and the rest of the builds who use goyfs.

Tombstalker is to dangerous with Confidant, and confindant speeds the deck up alot why use him else if he doesn't do anything. I'm not saying that tombstalker is bad, its indeed one of the best black cards around but not in sui black. But that's my opinion.

and the 1 cc creatures are not necesarry but they are a nice addition, like if you have only 2cc spells, chalice at 2 kills you.

and Urborg is very good, your wastelands can now make also black mana and just an Urborg is as good as an swamp, but with wastelands he totally rocks.

But hey don't feel offended, I'm just saying what my opinion is. and who am I anyway :P

technogeek5000

12-06-2007, 06:55 PM

Wow. You offer no input as to why these statements are true. Would you like to explain a little bit? There is a lot of testing by multiple people that proves Negator is indeed good against many decks which is why he has become a near staple of this deck. Why should I play the one-casting-cost 2/2's? You offer no reasons. Tombstalker is a pretty good late game creature which is why he's a 2-of and Confidant doesn't actually speed up the deck; he just draws you into more cards.

Which in turn speeds up the deck. Once he comes down your playing a extra card a turn most likely and that indirectly increases this decks clock. Also I am with slayer 100% on this one, Tombstalker does not in any shape or form belong in Sui black. Its not just the fact that hes terrible with confidant, its that tombstalker isnt the right theme. Sui black is a aggro-control deck that relies on explosive openings, a strong mid-game, and tempo disruption. On the other hand, Tombstalker is a late game card that comes down only after you have devoted the previous 3+ turns to answering threats and disrupting the opponent... all while not playing threats of your own. Sui does not want to do this and when you run him in your build, your deck will face conflicting gameplans and this will with out a doubt become a problem. Also 8 life to confidant, no matter how infrequently, is absolutely unacceptable.

Uhm. i'm not saying Negator is bad, but with all those tarmogoyfs around he isn't as good anymore as he used to be. I played him also when i first had this build, but when tarmo came in thresh, I cut him. tarmo is easily a 5/6 and do you want to sac 5 permanents. its just my opinion and I have tested also alot. you could put him SB against ***** and goyf sligh and the rest of the builds who use goyfs.

Tombstalker is to dangerous with Confidant, and confindant speeds the deck up alot why use him else if he doesn't do anything. I'm not saying that tombstalker is bad, its indeed one of the best black cards around but not in sui black. But that's my opinion.

and the 1 cc creatures are not necesarry but they are a nice addition, like if you have only 2cc spells, chalice at 2 kills you.

and Urborg is very good, your wastelands can now make also black mana and just an Urborg is as good as an swamp, but with wastelands he totally rocks.

But hey don't feel offended, I'm just saying what my opinion is. and who am I anyway :P

The whole field isnt tarmogoyf no matter how much it may seem. This deck answers goyf easily so when you hit late game, negator is the best card in the whole deck. I remember back when I toped 8 at hadley that the thresh opponent I played in the swiss absolutely despised my gators. Often in that matchup you go on and answer each others threats until neither of you have cards left. in the 2 games I won that round, negator won me both of the games because I casted him, then shortly after he dealt lethal.

LordEvilTeaCup

12-06-2007, 07:25 PM

Imo the horrible synergy of Stalker and Bob is the ONLY reason he should not be put in this deck. I don't think he conflicts with the game plan at all. He is big, he flies, and can be played relatively early. I think if we could somehow summon Mr. Stalker and Mrs. Gator into the real world... they would hit it off real well and go out for a cup of coffee. Great Synergy. Of course Bob would be jealous and well you get the picture.

Galroth

12-06-2007, 08:34 PM

I run 18 creatures... that's my magic number for a build that doesn't run the 1cc zombies. The first 4 sets are an easy choice: what's the remaining 5th creature? Lets assume here I choose to stick to mono-black.

My feasible options:

Beaters
Tombstalker
Oona's Prowler
Stromgald Crusader/Order of the Ebon Hand

Hate
Yixlid Jailer
Plague Spitter

Artifact Damage
The Rack
Cursed Scroll

*I'll accept these as possible options because they're good damage sources that essentially fill the role of what my creatures are there primarily to do.

Are there other options? If you're going to respond please explain why you think it is an option in detail. Also, it would probably help to specify what sort of build it should go in. For instance I didn't list the 1cc zombies here because simply put they don't fit me list. Turn 1 I'll be playing either 1) pinpoint 1cc discard; or 2) mana acceleration into a creature or other disruption... possibly both. Turn 2 I have better options that the 1cc zombies, especially considering I'm not running equipment which is the single reason they're any later than Turn 3.

In my opinion, unless you know what meta you're facing Tombstalker is your best option there. If the meta is known, find a hate card to put in. Tombstalker is a 2-of because at most you want to see 1 of him a game, and likely not in your opening hand. The chances of you drawing into him with Dark Confidant is slim. It's a risk that pays off, much like Negator in that manner. You have a 50% chance of drawing him with Dark Confidant which would have to preclude Confidant being on the table (which if he sticks around tends to mean you've won). If you have a Tombstalker in your opening hand that drastically decreases the chances of drawing him. Honestly, how long does Confidant tend to stick on the table? If you get to draw roughly 3 extra cards off of Confidant the game should be closing so rapidly you can taste victory. There is no doubt that when it finally does happen, it hurts like hell. But so does Gator getting hit by Lightning Bolt. Man up you pansies :P and test it out ;) (nothing like a good inflammatory remark to end an otherwise good attempt at rational discussion)

--
EDIT: I forgot to address Bau's question about land count. Honestly, I've been so happy with this configuration. Sometimes I've even considered cutting a land, but that was more of a passing thought than heavy consideration. Chrome Mox doesn't count as a full land, but it's atleast a half. Wasteland probably doesn't count as a full land either because it doesn't provide black mana and usually doesn't stick around for more than 2 turns anyways. But there's also Dark Ritual. While I guess it comes down to testing more than anything else, I find that 26 mana sources is enough. Plus I really like running a full set of Duress and Thoughtseize. I've yet to meet a combo or control deck (accepting 43lands) that has a good game against this version of suicide black.

LordEvilTeaCup

12-06-2007, 09:46 PM

Man up you pansies :P and test it out ;) (nothing like a good inflammatory remark to end an otherwise good attempt at rational discussion)

:laugh: Well if you put it into those terms, I suppose I have no choice but to try it. Still this scenario could happen, "Yay I am winning the game and my Bob is drawing me cards every turn. Oops, top deckdecked Mr. Stalker. Me sad...." Statically speaking, I would guess (strongly) that you are correct in what you are saying. Still, its kinda like betting in the horse races. At first you set out to place your bets on one horse, but at the very last second you changed your mind and picked another. Well, when the race is over you discover that the horse that you picked first was actually the winner. Now pretend further that you bet your life's savings on that race. You are not feeling too good right now are you? Suffice to say, no matter how many games Mr. Stalker wins me... when it backfires it gonna feel like a punch in the balls.

Slayer001

12-07-2007, 08:05 AM

could be that negator can be sick but it can kill you also, lately i din't use him anymore in a tournament because I tested alot but he always killed me with all those goyfs around in my meta. And yes there are freaking alot of goyfs around here. Maybe I should test him again. I'll see about that

I will not run tombstalker, because I alrdy run fetxhlands and carnophage and confi in my build who will loese enough life and revealing a stalker with confi is more then a kick in the balls in my build it could mean death.

Galroth

12-07-2007, 10:03 PM

LordEvilTeaCup

12-07-2007, 10:23 PM

I wanted to share another configuration that I've been toying with for everyones analysis. In brief it differs from my favoured build by cutting land destruction for Oona's Prowler and The Rack.

Creatures (19)
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Oona's Prowler
Discard (12)
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
Other (4)
4x The Rack
Mana (25)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
18x Swamp

Essentially this build ups my threat count and offers the deck a slightly better late game through an alternate kill to creatures (i.e. the rack) at the expense of cutting land destruction which offers a tempo boost early game and decimates the majority of control decks.

I thought about Nezumi Shortfang, because he's practically an auto include in most discard oriented decks. I chose not to add him because I wanted the quick tempo of suicide black to remain. Nezumi takes too long to come on line, plus the space needed to include him is kinda precious and I'm happy with the rest of the card choices.

I know Teacup was playing around with a similar build. It could also be considered a poor mans build. The really expensive cards in suicide black (besides Thoughtseize) are Sinkhole and Wasteland. Sadly Thoughtseize is too good to even consider cutting it.

This deck also tries to abuse Oona's Prowler. Honestly, a 3/1 flier for 2cc is quite good if they don't have cards to discard. 12 discard spells are more than enough with 7 creatures that can act as re-occurring discard. I wouldn't call this version better at all, but I haven't put alot of testing into it yet. I do really enjoy the notably increased threat count. It helps keep constant pressure on the opponent. Sinkhole and Wasteland can just be incredible when you've powered out an early Gator, Confidant, or Hyppie. Other times they just don't feel up to par.

Thoughts?

Yeah, Thoughtseize is a must buy if you want to play this deck. Luckily the price is starting to drop. Wow, I gotta say I like the build. It might be one of those danger of cool things, but I just want to give the list a try. I guess you took out the jitte's, because of the Prowler right? I feel uncomfortable with no jittes, because I found that to be a godsend against gofys and aggro anything. The Gator loses some of his playability, and misses the cute ways jitte could bend combat math in your favor. The Rack feels strong here imo. It makes discard less dead, and is quite aggressive in this build. You have 19 creatures so its not like your board is going to be lacking or anything. Plus Oona Prowler and Rack just love each other. Nice build Galroth! In a sense, you answered the problem of filling up the last creature slot with a powerful creature.

Happy Gilmore

12-09-2007, 11:44 PM

Slayer001

12-10-2007, 10:41 AM

LordEvilTeaCup

12-10-2007, 12:04 PM

I like your build except for one thing, Cabal Therapy over Duress. Cabal therapy can give you the ability to win matchups you have no right to...two discard spells in one and it has the added bonus of helping you remove Bridge From Below and sacing your Confidants if the damage gets to be too much. I would also mention that you have no way of stoping a Tarmogoyf or preventing a deck like Breakfast from going off without creature removal.

Its a bit tight to use cabal therapy. We need our threats badly and to sac them to therapy is usually no small matter. I can see it improving the Ichorid matchup, but I am a bit skeptical that it would be better here than Duress. Its definitely an idea worth testing though.

Gate to Phryexia is interesting tech, but I dont feel it makes the cut. And before you even think of fitting it in, make sure you have Dystopia or something like Perish in the SB first.

technogeek5000

12-10-2007, 12:28 PM

I was thinking about that also, but haven't tested it yet
and extirpate and gate to phyrexia are very good in SB. espacially against stax kextirpating from life from the loam to chalice, to trinisphere to everything you don't like in that deck :smile: what you think about this sideboard

4x Planar void/ leyline of the void (planar void is the one I like better)
4x engineered plague (against goblins ofcoarse)
4x Extirpate
3x gate to phyrexia

gate to phyrexia: to destroy those annoying artifacts you don't like. You can use also powder keg or engineered explosives here but powder keg or gate to phyrexia are the best options in my opinion.)

I know its missing dystopia, but I don't know which is better dystopia or extirpate

Gate to phyrexia is to threat costly, anyways stax isnt that bad of a matchup so its not that important to hate it out. It is interesting though, so if your meta has alot of stax then it might not be terrible.

Oh and dystopia is easily better then extirpate. Extirpate does not effect the gamestate so even if you cast it, your opponent will still be playing spells in their hand and utilizing their board. Dystopia is great because it cripples any green or white deck. For 1 card you get rid of as many cards you wish on the opposite side of the table. If the opponent doesnt answer a dystopia then they lose, meanwhile if the opponent doesnt answer a extirpate they can still easily win.

Phantom

12-10-2007, 12:29 PM

Observer

12-10-2007, 12:41 PM

Another relatively cheap to build deck has once again been invalidated by the inclusion of Tarmogoyf...

A few month ago I believed the dual lands to be the biggest barrier to enter legacy. Maybe I should just play burn.

Sorry for the lack of constructive input...

edit: of course the printing of thoughtseize did not help the deck either. But seriously I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw Tarmogoyf in that list. As TeenieBopper mentioned in the "Worlds Metagame Predictions" Thread, it would make perfect sense to be included in goblins too. I have to stop thinking about it, its just sad. So any predictions when the price for Tarmogoyf will go down (if ever)?

Shtriga

12-10-2007, 12:50 PM

I like it. been disliking the hippies lately, and the gators are a gamble to play sometimes. I also never liked the pump knights much, because they are such suckers for black mana (the shades are enough on that matter), although the evasion on the crusader is nice sometimes

@ Observer: I share the same pain. I dont have a full suite of goyfs yet and I doubt I'll get the full 4 sometime soon, because they are so expensive. I wish I had got more of them when they were 10$ (or 3$ but I thought they sucked back then). and I seriously doubt their prices will go down anytime soon, if at all, unless one of these 2 scenarios happen: a better creature is printed (doubtful, as goyf is close to brokenness), or it gets banned. I can see them going down in price in a few months, maybe 5$ if that much, and a bit more when FS gets rotated out of T2. but I bet they will still retain a 30$ price tag after that just because they are so good in every format

Media314r8

12-10-2007, 12:53 PM

2. Your "4" ofs in the board are overkill. If there are almost no Goblins in the field, why run Engineered Plague (or better yet, why four?!?) Goblins ahs disapppeared. Albeit still one of the greatest decks ever, it just hasn't made a big showing recently.

goblins was the second-most played deck at worlds, seems like abig enough showing to me. At any given tournament, you can expect to see at least two deck there: goblins and thresh. Goblins is still in the meta, despite seeing few top 8s recently, and having a poor match up against them can spell a possible game loss if you're planning on attending a big tournament.

Also, @ 75% 'auto-loss' ratio of goblins vs thresh and TES:

I have RB gobins built, with thorn MD, 4therapy 3 thoughtseize and 3 (to complete the set) Mad Aunties SB + 1 King.

The thorn is amazing in goblins, and effectivly makes cantrips cost twice as much, along with upsetting daze and FoW, botha 4-of in thresh. From anyone who has poileted a combo deck VS sphere of resistance, just about the same is true of thorn. (save for your xantid swarms are still just G) I have consistantly beat my friend's GUr thresh deck, and have about a 40% and 60% record vs my other friend's TES deck pre and post boards respectivly. I assure you both of them are compotent players, and Thorn + disruption really does make a difference.

Slayer001

12-10-2007, 03:09 PM

uhm srry to remind you but is not a goblin thread but a suicide black thread

that list of worlds looks good but I only have 1 tarmogoyf. but i'll try it out with proxies someday

and you are right about dystopia its alot better, but it can cost you much life, not ? first 1 life then 2 then 4, with all the other lifeloss around ( bob, carnophage, maybe sarcomancy or fetchlands). Stax is no auto win it can be though with a chalice at 2 and tabernacle at the pendrell vell or magusd of the tabernacle, they can hurt alot. we need something to kill artifacts in SB and best options are as mentioned powder keg, gate to phyrexia and engineered explosives

Shtriga

12-10-2007, 03:25 PM

if youre playing goyfs you can run naturalize/krosan grip in the SB aswell

lolosoon

12-10-2007, 04:32 PM

and you are right about dystopia its alot better, but it can cost you much life, not ? first 1 life then 2 then 4
Not really. It takes effect as soon as your opponent's upkeep, before you ever paid life.

With 2 upkeep paid, you get rid of 3 pesky green critters. ie you get rid of your Threshold opponent's fat army with just 0, 1 then 2 lifepoints loss.

But, splashing green just for 4 Goyfs ?! Man, I know this card is great, but at the expense of manabase stability (even if with 8 fetches, the splashed cards are easily playable) is this a good deal ?!

At least Peter Steinaa's B/g build packed some Rockish cards like Deed+Witnesses when Roel van Heeswijk played a Rockguy build where the green beast shines.

Can't we just keep the heavy discard package and pack some Knights or Hippies (even Wretch) without threatening the deck's raw power ?!

Tarmogoyf don't interact greatly with some of the best SB cards avalaible for this deck : Planar Void and Dystopia...

LordEvilTeaCup

12-10-2007, 09:50 PM

That Sui black with green splash list from Worlds looks pretty nice:

20 lands
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland

16 creatures
4 Carnophage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tarmogoyf

24 spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sarcomancy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Serum Powder

Looks like he's not giving up much to run the best creature in the game, and that discard package is just devastating.

I think the deck list looks fantastic. Perhaps it is a mistake to over think the green splash, and we should merely use it for the Gofys. Still I would have liked to see some old favorites like Negator. I am having a hard time believing he is outdated. Yay for Serum Powders in the SB! This deck went 5-0 right? Anyway, I hate to say it but Gofy is definitely what this deck needs to hit the top. It does not overly affect the deck too much, and I am sure the mana base could be made more resilient to overcome any potential weaknesses.

Happy Gilmore

12-10-2007, 11:06 PM

I think the deck list looks fantastic. Perhaps it is a mistake to over think the green splash, and we should merely use it for the Gofys. Still I would have liked to see some old favorites like Negator. I am having a hard time believing he is outdated. Yay for Serum Powders in the SB! This deck went 5-0 right? Anyway, I hate to say it but Gofy is definitely what this deck needs to hit the top. It does not overly affect the deck too much, and I am sure the mana base could be made more resilient to overcome any potential weaknesses.

I love negator so much, but I hate to say that he is indead obsolete atm. I would give an arm and a leg if it meant an errata that gave him fear or flying.

Anyone nice the 4x Jitte????? This is clearly the trump strategy. And where the heck is Specter! That card is so good in here.

Versus

12-11-2007, 12:05 AM

technogeek5000

12-11-2007, 08:52 AM

Arsenal

12-11-2007, 09:07 AM

My thoughts exactly on Deed; your threats are mostly 3cc and less, which is what you'd typically be cracking Deed for. No good in this deck.

Eternal Witness is 1GG, so the manabase would have to altered to fit that. Also, why? It's cute, but doesn't profoundly alter the deck like...

Goyf. 1G. Splashable and manageable with just 4 Bayou. Is a house whenever he hits the table, and fits into pretty much any deck with creatures as kill condition. I'd say 4 Bayou for 4 Goyf is a good addition, and whoever said Naturalize/Krosan Grip in Sideboard is right, imo. The bane of mono-black has been lack of enchantment, and to a slightly lesser extent, artifact removal. Krosan Grip gives you that ability to deal with pesky enchantments that normally you'd have to rely on pro-active disruption to deal with. I like the green splash, but only for Goyf, nothing else (and Krosan Grip in SB).

LordEvilTeaCup

12-11-2007, 10:22 AM

Not to be a dick or anything, but there's nothing innovative about that list. It's your list, my list, everyone in this threads list. Just because a pro took the exact same skeleton we all use and piloted it to some success shouldn't negate what you guys have already done.

Most of us already run 4 Jitte and 12 discard and splashing green has always been a valid option for Goyf I mean why the hell not right? If anything, I'd like to reiterate what lolosoon brought up. Where the hell are Deeds, Witnesses, Berserk?? If you're gonna corrupt the mana base, you might as well take advantage of it's strengths, no?

To be fair, the pro probably did not steal any of our lists. Its looks more likely that he saw Bill Starks list and adapted it to fit Tarmogofy. I kinda like how he keep the discard package strong without throwing any green pump. Not sure its the right call, but it feels right to me. I second the opinion of throwing some Hyppies in here, but he is no longer the auto include he once was. That discard package as is will lead to lots of dead cards latter on, and probably gets the job done as is. Hyppie needs some mox to power him out faster or you just lay him down a tad slow. In this kinda of build, I would rather find a place for Gator but maybe that is because I am one biased mofo.

Now would mox builds want Tarmogoyf? It is kinda crappy to lay him down turn 1. I suppose that is largely irrelevant as you can drop your first threat than him later. I don't know, logic and reason usually fails when it comes to Goyf. Perhaps he would work just find, because he is a stupid and broken creature.

Slayer001

12-11-2007, 10:25 AM

It weakens some of the sideboard cards that are the best for this build. Dystopia and Planar void. You can't use them because they have bad synergy with tarmogoyf. I agree with adding krosan grip to SB, its great enchantment and artifact removal.

Versus

12-11-2007, 12:36 PM

Edit: My bad, I thought Deeds was "equal to" not equal to AND less.

Teacup: Concerning Moxes and Goyf and using that list, what would you possible imprint but another Goyf? That's not too efficient.

LordEvilTeaCup

12-11-2007, 07:41 PM

Edit: My bad, I thought Deeds was "equal to" not equal to AND less.

Teacup: Concerning Moxes and Goyf and using that list, what would you possible imprint but another Goyf? That's not too efficient.

No you probably would not imprint it with a Gofy you silly:tongue: . Like I said, its not as hot in Gofy builds but its still nice to lay down first hymn or something. This deck is rather redundant with its discard so pitching to the mox for acceleration is usually a reasonable play. Its mostly for builds that want to have their turn three plays become a turn 2. No Gator No hyppie means no mox.

Filipinho

12-11-2007, 08:01 PM

I still think moxes have place in the deck. Even with the green splash.
Sure, tarmogoyf sux t1, but being able to discard+2/2, hymn, or cast confidant t1 is awesome. With 20x1cc and 20x2cc I think it's worth.

I'm considering going 2x Rancor 2x Jitte's. I just keep drawing 2, 3 jittes some games. Maybe even go 4x Rancor.

Slayer001

12-12-2007, 12:43 PM

Rancxor would be a good addition for the BG-build. But the build is more wastelands vunerable. and you'll lose some precious sideboard cards like Dystopia and planar void who have very bad synergy with tarmogoyf.

Dunno about the chrome moxes this deck needs every threat you can get in hand. Losing one of your threats to a chrome mox can be a pain to deal with but maybe not. Can't really say something about it haven't tested it yet :smile:

Drathro

12-12-2007, 01:08 PM

Actually, Rancor could help you keep Dystopia in the side, even if you run Goyfs. You end up paying :g: per turn to avoid sacrificing your green creature.

Arsenal

12-12-2007, 01:10 PM

Wow... the beauty of mono-colored Sui deck is being overtaken with Goyf. So janky. MUC will start splashing green for Goyf pretty soon too.

I guess this is the natural evolution of the deck now. I say just splash green for Goyf. Jitte is enough pump, and doesn't require a creature in order to cast it. Also, what would you cut for Rancor?

Shtriga

12-12-2007, 01:56 PM

Deed is the bane of this deck... Everytime it hits the board it is a reflex for me to think: "Shit". This deck runs threats at 1, 2, and 3 and those are the numbers your going to be cracking deed at. Deed isnt good in this deck because often you will destroy just as many of your cards(or more) then your opponent.

indeed, P. Deedy would call for a slightly different playstyle than sui black. more like Rockguy; disrupt, clean board, then drop a big creature while the opponent is offset on tempo.

Filipinho

12-12-2007, 05:29 PM

You'd cut Jitte. Being legendary, I don't wanna get dead cards drawing 2 or 3s.

Tacosnape

12-12-2007, 05:54 PM

LordEvilTeaCup

12-12-2007, 07:30 PM

Or instead of cutting Jitte, you play Wild Mongrel* also, who pitches dead Jittes and has insane synergy with Tarmogoyf for his ability to pump it / bluff the pump.

Goyf, Mongrel, and Shade all in the same deck is a lot of pumpable beatdown.

*You know. The Guy who used to be the best green beater in Magic.

Interesting idea. I suppose Mongrel is better than the other choices perhaps with the exception of Gator. I remember Mongrel fondly back in the day when Madness ruled... It is worthy of play testing as Sui tends to have lots of dead discard in hand latter on. He was more fun when smother was still considered sub optimal and people were unable to kill him with terror like effects and burn. Good times good times.

Barook

12-13-2007, 11:27 AM

According to the search function, this issue was never really discussed properly: MD Extirpate as a useful addition of a hybrid LD/hand destruction strategy.

I'm thinking about running at least 8 discard spells (Thoughtseize + X, where X can be Duress or Hymn (which would have better synergy with the LD theme)), 4 Sinkhole and 3-4 Wastelands. The benefits of extirpating discarded/used key cards doesn't need to be explained. But what uses can Extirpate have in terms of LD?

Besides removing used fetchlands to thin out lands from your manascrewed opponent's library (which is a really meh play unless you know your opponent holds another copy of the fetchland in his hand), you can also use your LD to destroy a key land (Manlands, duals) and then extirpate it. This way, your opponent is unable to replace it with another copy for the rest of the game which further strengthens your LD plan. Throw in some Needles from the board (which would be an alternative to Extirpate in terms of MD mana denial in a fetchland-heavy meta) to increase the effectiveness of the strategy.

I would like to hear your opinions on this topic, considering many lists pack Extirpate at least in the board, sometimes even with MD LD. Note that the potential card disadvantage of Extirpate is not the main topic in this discussion (that was already covered before :rolleyes:), but rather how devestating the combination of LD with flexible pseudo-LD can be.

Slayer001

12-13-2007, 01:29 PM

Extirpate can be used to kill your opponents dual lands. I like to try him out in SB, dunno if you also can use it maindeck. I have kept my tradiotional SB for a tourney:
4x Dystopia
4x Engineered Plague
4x Planar void,
3x Powder keg/pithing needle/ engineered plagues/ extirpate

what would you think would best fit in the last spot in a meta full of thresh solidarity/hightide, belcher and goblins ?

Arsenal

12-13-2007, 01:35 PM

Why Planar over LotV in the SB, especially since you're running 4x (and I assume you board in all 4)?

Also, to deal with Goyf, what do we use as primary spot removal? Shriekmaw?

Ataxrxes

12-13-2007, 01:45 PM

Why Planar over LotV in the SB, especially since you're running 4x (and I assume you board in all 4)?

Also, to deal with Goyf, what do we use as primary spot removal? Shriekmaw?

It depends on your build, but the most accepted choices seem to be Smother, Edict, and Snuff Out, or some combination of those. I'm testing 4 smother and 2 Edict as removal right now. If you run Thoughtsieze, that could also be considered Goyf removal I suppose.

Slayer001

12-13-2007, 02:08 PM

lolosoon

12-13-2007, 02:12 PM

this issue was never really discussed properly: MD Extirpate as a useful addition of a hybrid LD/hand destruction strategy.
I've played MD extirpate in Bwg RockGuy and have been really impressed with it.

Turn1 Duress/ThoughSeize to get rid of an hypothetical Stifle, then Turn2 Wasteland+Extirpate is devastating vs Thresh, especially in 3c builds, especially on Trop.Island.

This kind of play on early Tundras even win me some games vs 3cFish.

Still, depending of the local metagame (No Breakfast//Ichorid, few 3cThresh//Fish builds) the MD slots could serve otherwise, still I'll always have 3 Exirpate in my SB.

Slayer001

12-14-2007, 10:01 AM

I'm thinking of puting 3 in my SB also, don't kow about mainboard. they kill alot of decks. In aggro loam remove lftl and they are nothing, in survival remove sotf and they are nothing anymore and they are so good against combo decks. puting away their winconditions, they are not that good against aggro thats why I prefer sideboard

Tacosnape

12-14-2007, 02:05 PM

planar void is better in this deck it costs only one and you don't need your own graveyard if you don't use graveyard recursion cards. Leyline costs 4 and you don't have them always in your hand turn 1. And yu can't mulligan till you have him.

Planar Void is close to useless if it's not in your opening hand anyway.

Leyline costs 0, is uncounterable, and can't ever be knocked out of your opening hand with a rogue discard spell, which makes it better against almost every single deck where it could be relevant. Planar's stronger against Tarmogoyf if it resolves (and sometimes only if you go first), which is a big if. So what? Leyline shuts their yard down, and you aren't ever going to put any Lands, Artifacts, or Enchantments in yours, or even Instants unless you draw a Dark Ritual. Most of what goes in your yard is Sorceries and Creatures. Tarmogoyfs tend to average 2/3 or 3/4 with Leyline out, which I find is very easily manageable.

What's more, if a deck like Ichorid has a Chain of Vapor in hand, and you're going first? Leyline, Swamp, Thoughtseize/Duress, win.

And why can't you mulligan until you have it if it's strong enough? I beat Cephalid Breakfast multiple times going to 5 for it, and I've beaten Ichorid going to 3 (Swamp, Carnophage, Leyline). What's more, chances are very high that you'll see it either in your seven or your six (Probability experts, give me a figure here.)

In addition, that one mana you spend on Planar Void can seriously make the difference between a win and a loss in Sui Black decks that are based more on speed than anything.

technogeek5000

12-14-2007, 02:55 PM

Tacosnape

12-14-2007, 03:43 PM

I believe taco, that your analysis between void and leyline is a little biased, because you have never ran Confidant in any list you have provided. Leyline has terrible synergy with confidant and void doesnt. Confidant belongs in Sui black because it is the only form of card advantage this deck has. You dont run him because he is a beater, so the arguement that he cant swing through anything is not valid here. The fact that he draws cards and can occaisionally put 2+ points up on the opponent is just a bonus.

I'm running Confidant in my current list, actually. And while I acknowledge this is a difference maker, it's not enough of one. Good decks play good cards, and Leyline of the Void is stronger then Planar Void. Confidant does make it a closer call, though.

The dissynergy isn't all that bad in decks where it's relevant, anyway. I have no other means of life loss in my build aside from Thoughtseize and Carnophage, and against a combo deck where I need Leyline chances are I boarded out Carnophage anyway, considering every combo deck where I need Leyline I can also benefit from Plague, and somebody has to go.

So while I won't argue for or against Confidant (I mainly run him because of the insane amount of Control in my metagame), I'd pick Leyline in either case.

Oh and if leyline is not in your opening hand (4 out of sixty = 1/15. There are seven cards in your hand so the probability that a 4-of will be in your opening hand is 7/15 or 46.67% The probability that leyline will be in your second hand is 40%... so its not like its gonna be in every hand you get, and mulling to 5 for leyline is foolish) then its just as dead as void.

Your math absolutely sucks. For one thing, that's not the -combined- chance of getting it in either your six or seven. For another, that's not how you calculate probability. By your logic, if you drew 15 cards, it would be completely impossible to -not- have a Leyline of the Void in your opening hand.

Shtriga

12-14-2007, 06:15 PM

Tacosnape, what creature base are you running atm? do you run the 8 zombies as well?

Slayer001

12-14-2007, 06:30 PM

Tacosnape

12-14-2007, 06:35 PM

Tacosnape, what creature base are you running atm? do you run the 8 zombies as well?

At the moment...well, here's the list.

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Carnophage
4 Black Knight (Yes, Black Knight. Shut up.)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy/Smother/Yixlid Jailer (I can't ever make up my mind on this slot)
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Umezawa's Jitte (This could be 1 of any of the sideboard cards)

SB:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void

Yeah, I bailed on the pump knights, largely for the awesomeness that is Cursed Scroll. I win more matches against random crap like Enchantress, MUC, Landstill, and other off the wall crap from that card than I can even begin to explain. It seems to kick in right as my opponent stabilizes.

Black Knight could be Sarcomancy if you want more speed, Crusader if you want a stronger finisher, but I think Knight's better than either in the midgame. You'll be spending the mana you would use to pump Crusader on playing other threats, pumping Shade, equipping Jitte, or activating Scroll. Black Knight's first strike makes him nifty as hell with both Scroll and Jitte. His pro-white makes him incredibly good against decks that rely on STP as their removal spell of choice.

This build does what my other Sui Black deck wouldn't do - beat both combo and control. Specters and Confidants go a long way to this end. Aggro matchups suck, but improve via Plague/Jitte/Scroll. Thoughtseize works as a threat removal card as often as not.

My decision to cut Sarcomancy was a hard one, but necessary. It tied you to Zombies too much for my liking, and there weren't enough good ones. Without Negator or any other Zombies backing him up, Carnophage became the better choice of the 1-drop to keep. I'm in a control-heavy metagame, and the all-or-nothing approach wasn't getting the job done against Explosives, Deeds, Pyroclasms, and so forth.

EDIT: Oh, and news flash. Withered Wretch still sucks. Just like it has for the past twelve months. Jailer >> Wretch.

Hummingbird TG

12-14-2007, 10:22 PM

Taco: I have a query, though. How do you beat TES? Hyppie doesn't hurt them much, sometimes they have Confidant too, and Sui-Black's clock is ridiculously slow compared to TES...

VsTheWorld

12-14-2007, 10:48 PM

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

That's how you beat TES.

Lemuria

12-14-2007, 11:01 PM

2 Cabal Therapy/Smother/Yixlid Jailer (I can't ever make up my mind on this slot)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (This could be 1 of any of the sideboard cards)

That could be 3 jitte MD or even 3 Smother MD, so you can improve your aggro matchup a bit.

Anyway, I like your list very much and it seems to be the best so far. I would only go with Crusader over Black Knight because flying >> first strike.

By the way, don't you think that Oona's Prowler will be better then Specter?

scrumdogg

12-15-2007, 01:34 AM

Flying does > first strike...except when you have pay for it.... And please explain to the world how, in the age of Dredge & combo like Ceph Breakfast that giving your opponent a free discard outlet is a good thing? If Oona's Prowler was the right call (and it isn't) then the proper card to replace would be the 2 cc/2power knight of whichever, NOT the flying creature of kicking control in the junk repeatedly....just sayin'.

Tacosnape

12-15-2007, 01:47 AM

Oona's Prowler is awful. Awful Awful Awful. I would never ever run it and there's at least ten creatures I'd pick over it in Suicide Black that I don't already run, including Sarcomancy, Ebon Hand, Crusader, Hand of Cruelty, Negator, Jailer, the ever awful Withered Wretch, Sewer Rats, Wei Ambush Force, Rotting Giant, Wretched Anurid, Skittering Skirge, and Wicked Akuba. It's the Browbeat dilemma all over again. You're giving your opponent the choice, and they're going to pick the best option. No card currently in existence that gives the final choice to your opponent should be played in Legacy, and this will remain as such until they print one that's completely broken, like a card called Homicide Black (Sorcery, :1::b:, Target Opponent Chooses One - Put four 13/13 Zombie Mutant tokens into play, or Draw 7 cards and take three additional turns. Foilstorm (If Homicide Black is Foil, copy it for each spell played this turn.))

Think you have Tarmogoyf problems? Oona's Prowler turns Tarmogoyf into Wild Mongrel on crack! Struggling with Ichorid? Prepare to struggle even more, considering your main hope game one is to knock out their discard outlets ASAP.

Slayer001

12-15-2007, 04:13 AM

@taco: I'm with you on the prowler thing, he isn't good in sui black against most decks.

About yailer and wretch, I will pick wretch, he removes the cards so no tarmogoyf feed anymore. But against certain matchups I agree that yixlid yailer is better. espacially aganst suirvival, ichorid, breakfast. Maybe i'll try him out someday. My deck looks as follows:

10x Swamp
4x Bloodstained mire
3x Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual

2x Withered Wretch
3x Carnophage
3x Black Knight
3x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant

4x Duress
4x Hymn to tourach
3x Smother
3x Diabolic Edict
3x Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

4x planar void
4x Dystopia
4x engineered Plague
3x Extirpate

I have chosen also for black knight they are amazing and like someone said before if you have to pay for flying, then first strike is better. With him and Jitte I even win against R/w Vial Goblins. The specters are just to great against any deck, if he comes on the table its pretty much over against certain decks. Edicts are nice against nimble mongooses and against all creature based metagames. You just take out the creature removal for other threats against certain decks.

Shtriga

12-15-2007, 07:50 AM

the all around lack of Negator is due to all the tarmogoyfs around I guess? I know he has been awful for me lately

Slayer001

12-15-2007, 10:16 AM

yea negator is not as good anymore as he used to be. against goyfs it is a pain you can only beat if they don't have creatures or burn but goyf comes down turn 2 so not much beating. and with goyf around you may sac alot of things and thats not what we want

Tacosnape

12-15-2007, 01:44 PM

the all around lack of Negator is due to all the tarmogoyfs around I guess? I know he has been awful for me lately

I never liked Negator in Suicide Black, though I loved it in Red Death. This is in large part due to Sui Black's problems eliminating a threat from in front of a Negator, where as Red Death could tap a land and fry something. (I -still- have urges to splash red for Lightning Bolt for the synergy with Black Knight) In something as removal-heavy as Slayer's list, though, it might be pretty good.

Listasaurus Rex!

I assume your decision not to run Thoughtseize is based on not owning them? Because no black deck in existence makes more use out of Thoughtseize's ability to snag a creature than this one. Plus 8 Duress effects is better than 4.

EDIT: Also, Kudos for doing the logical thing and running Urborg to supplement your Wastelands. Is three too many Urborgs, though?

Barook

12-15-2007, 02:05 PM

EDIT: Also, Kudos for doing the logical thing and running Urborg to supplement your Wastelands. Is three too many Urborgs, though?
Mathematically seen, nope. According to MWS, you only have a chance of 3% to draw double Urborg in your start hand and only 19% up to T10. Now consider how likely it is that the colorless part of Wasteland ruins your start hand and how Urborg can fix that. I think it's worth the risk because it wins you more games than it loses you games.

Tacosnape

12-15-2007, 03:14 PM

Mathematically seen, nope. According to MWS, you only have a chance of 3% to draw double Urborg in your start hand and only 19% up to T10. Now consider how likely it is that the colorless part of Wasteland ruins your start hand and how Urborg can fix that. I think it's worth the risk because it wins you more games than it loses you games.

Eh that small chance will result in you drawing a dead card in a few games, which absolutely sucks if it's a land drop. I'd stick with 2, but that's just me. As long as 3 works, hey.

Slayer001

12-15-2007, 03:14 PM

Yep that's right, Urborg wins me games i sometimes don't win because i don't have enough black mana. you can even tap your fetchlands for mana and if they destroy them, sac, -1 life and search swamp :)

You are right about the thougtseize part, I don't have them. And they are to expensive at the moment, I'm going to try, to trade it someday :) they are good I tried it with proxies

Barook

12-16-2007, 11:48 AM

LordEvilTeaCup

12-16-2007, 12:53 PM

@Tacosnape: Just asking: Do you really need at least 12 discard spells MD if you have problems against aggro? Doesn't cutting 2 discard spells for 2 additional MD Jitte make more sense, especially with Black Knight?

Yeah, I don't believe we had a good enough discussion about how much discard we really need MD. It is build dependent for sure, but I think we can come to some good conclusions about how much discard we really need.

Slayer001

12-16-2007, 01:16 PM

I run 8 and it helped me quite alot, but sometimes I alrdy run in to much against aggro and they keep sitting in my hand and I run hippies, so 8 is more then enough i'm even thinking of removing 1 duress for another carnophage

Tacosnape

12-16-2007, 02:57 PM

@Tacosnape: Just asking: Do you really need at least 12 discard spells MD if you have problems against aggro? Doesn't cutting 2 discard spells for 2 additional MD Jitte make more sense, especially with Black Knight?

Yes. I want to beat combo, I want to beat control, and I want to keep people off ridiculously broken 2-mana spells. I've found that 12 discard helps me do that pretty well. I'm currently running 14 maindeck discard and I'm not terribly sorry about it, because I've been steamrolling every control and every combo deck I face. However, I'm probably going to cut down to 12 to squeak in just a little maindeck aggro protection of some sort.

Shtriga

12-16-2007, 03:23 PM

how easily can you handle tarmogoyfs that hit the table with that build? although a jitte'd black knight can handle him, on top of the discard

LordEvilTeaCup

12-16-2007, 03:26 PM

I will stick to 11 to 12 myself. Discard becomes dead pretty quickly and fails as a topdeck most of the time. I never felt lacking in discard with 12 discard and Hyppie back up.

Cursed Scroll is making a comeback? I thought Jitte won that war, but I must admit I never ever played with Cursed Scroll. I know you already gave some details about how Cursed Scroll, but could you go a little more in depth? The idea of utilizing the Scroll in Sui Black hasn't really occurred to me. It was always throw the Jitte in there! So anyway, Scroll gives you reach, a bit of removal, and can help you win combat exchanges. It has great synergy with the Black Knight like you said and so on and so forth. It doesn't need a creature equipped to it to do its thing (helpful against mean board sweeping decks) and can kill mishra's factories. Did I miss anything? From my limited knowledge it looks like a solid include, but does it really beat out the Jitte?

Shtriga

12-16-2007, 03:28 PM

cursed scroll was to 1997 what tarmogoyf is to 2007 :P

I've thought of running the scrolls but haven't had a chance to test yet

Barook

12-16-2007, 04:03 PM

Bill Stark used the combination of Scroll and Jitte during GP: Flash quite successfully against aggro and some other stuff. He boarded it in in basically every non-flash matchup. Sure, that was before the Tarmogoyf reared its (really) ugly head into legacy, but that doesn't change the fact that it provides reach and kills weenies.

Tacosnape

12-17-2007, 01:43 AM

I think the reach on Cursed Scroll is more relevant than the weenie kill. I get more kills out of that thing than you'd believe. However, the killing part is decent. On a fast enough hand you can keep Goblins at bay with it and randomly steal game one, and then when you factor in Scroll/Plague/Jitte, it becomes a pretty good match. Plus Scroll just kills lots of small, random jank.

My build isn't fantastic at handling Tarmogoyfs preboard, I admit. I think it's highly likely I'll turn the two Therapies into either Jittes or Smothers eventually, should my metagame come to demand it. Either one's pretty decent against Goyf.

Leyline helps against Goyf, though. My own graveyard generally stays pretty small. Sorceries are the only thing that almost always go in. Instants go in if I get a Ritual, and Creatures go in if they kill one. Generally with Leyline out Goyfs don't get bigger than 2/3 or 3/4, which is manageable. a 3/4 Goyf actually goes down to Black Knight + Cursed Scroll, or just Nantuko Shade.

Barook

12-17-2007, 07:46 AM

I'm going to test this version of the deck:

19 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

3 Stromgald Crusader
3 Black Knight
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
3 Smother
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm going to test a Mox version. Bob and Hippie are alot stronger when you run both Ritual and Mox. As far as I can tell, the rather high artifact count (8) is not a problem.

What I like about this version that it runs a good mixture of discard, creature removal and decent threats which are all must-answers (except for Black Knight, but I like him). I only run 2 Scrolls because 3 were too many as far as I can tell from goldfishing.

The mana count seems to be quite high, but 18 lands +3 Moxen proved to be not enough during goldfishing. The deck is really mana-hungry and has quite a few options to dump your mana (Jitte, Scroll, Shade, Crusader).

Arsenal

12-17-2007, 09:38 AM

I like the 12 discard (Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn) + 4 Hippie package. To me, topdecking a discard is not that bad of a play (unless your opponent is in topdeck mode too). Even if my opponent has 1-3 cards in hand, and I topdeck a discard spell, I'll use it. If I get something, awesome. If he counters/plays something in resp, awesome. If I get nothing, at least I know what he's able to do in the next 1-3 turns. I don't see too much downside to topdeck discard unless your in a very desperate situation and NEED a Smother/creature/Jitte to buy you a turn. But if you're already in that situation, what are the chances you're going to win anyway?

Slayer001

12-17-2007, 03:53 PM

uhm, topdecking discard is realy realy bad against aggro who play to get their hand on table asap. I think 8 is the maximum you could run thougtseize + hymn, you need creatures for the win, else you need to play the rack then discard is no problem. But in the beater version, not that much discard needed in my opinion, I do great against control also with 8 discard spells and against combo it depends on how quick they "go off" preboard, after I sided in some extirpates to kill their winncons or what they need to win.

Extirpate is nice against many decks especially against ichorid, lftl ,... you can even remove those nasty counters your opponent has in his deck or other things that you want RFG. extirpate does wonderful things for me on MWS that is. I'm going to playtest him friday at my local shop. I'll let you know the results of the tourney of saturday asap as i can. I hope I can use the extirpates ^^

what do you guys think of what to extirpate in wich build ?

Arsenal

12-17-2007, 04:13 PM

Sui Black has always had a notoriously poor matchup with pure aggro decks. That is just an inherent weakness in Sui Black. However, seeing as how combo and aggro-control seems to be the primary archetypes in the meta, I would think that if you went to a blind tourney of any notable size, you'd see far more combo and aggro-control than flat out aggro. That's what your SB is for.

With that mindset, I do not feel comfortable with 8 discard spells + 4 Hippies. And if you were to cut 4 discard spells, I assume you'd replace it with a creature/removal/other aggro hate?

Shtriga

12-17-2007, 05:21 PM

I don't see too much downside to topdeck discard unless your in a very desperate situation and NEED a Smother/creature/Jitte to buy you a turn. But if you're already in that situation, what are the chances you're going to win anyway?

that would be every time an opposing tarmogoyf hits the table. in which case you need a jitte'd creature or smother to answer it, or block with a pumped shade. if you can't answer it, you will definitely die. especially since the last sui black lists are getting a tad slower without gators and shade being the only major clock, goyf is a factor you need to be able to answer

personally I advocate by 8 discard+hippies, or 12 and no hippies, and 4 removal cards (not including jitte/scroll)

Arsenal

12-17-2007, 05:36 PM

that would be every time an opposing tarmogoyf hits the table. in which case you need a jitte'd creature or smother to answer it, or block with a pumped shade. if you can't answer it, you will definitely die. especially since the last sui black lists are getting a tad slower without gators and shade being the only major clock, goyf is a factor you need to be able to answer

personally I advocate by 8 discard+hippies, or 12 and no hippies, and 4 removal cards (not including jitte/scroll)

But by cutting pinpoint discard (Duress I assume), you've increased the chances of your opponent holding a counter to your topdecked Jitte/Smother/etc. Also, if your area has primarily control/combo/aggro-control, I don't see how 8 discard + 4 Hippies > 12 discard + 4 Hippies. If your area is aggro heavy, then of course do with less MD discard spells. But if I was to take Sui Black into a blind meta/tourney of any notable size (30+ players), I'd take my chances and bet Thresh and Combo will be more represented than aggro.

Phantom

12-17-2007, 05:39 PM

I really don't understand all this talk about discard sucking at certain times. Of course it does. So do counterspells. Big freaking deal. You trade that off for the ability to take the BEST card an opponent is holding. I personally think that 8 discard spells might not be enough, or at least that 12 might be better. I mean, a Ritual -> Hymn + Duress or TS is about the best way this deck can start against almost anything in the meta.

I also don't understand mainboard Hippy's. I just don't see them being good in this meta at all, except when cast off an opening ritual, and there are few hands I can think of where I want to ritual out a Hippy as opposed to something else. Basically, I find them to be utter shit against aggro. Crappy against Thresh (Daze. low cc cards, gets destroyed by Goyf in a race). Crappy against Loam. Pointless against Control (they either kill him asap or I've ripped their hand apart with discard in which case I wish it was Negator) and decent against some combo (non graveyard based and non lightning fast).

I haven't done all the testing I should have to fully comment on him, so feel free to give me some resoning, and hopefully specific matchups where I'm wrong.

Arsenal

12-17-2007, 05:44 PM

Phantom

12-17-2007, 05:50 PM

I think the ever-present power of a 1st turn Ritual -> Hippy is what keeps him in for some people, me included. That single play wins games before they even truly begin. He's evasive (which helps with Jitte), and doesn't die to -1/-1 effects like other creatures commonly found in Sui Black do.

I too feel as though he's a potential weak point, but if you replace him with a 2cc creature (which I assume you would), are the pump/jump knights really that much better? And what is the trade off?

I would probably replace him Dark Confidant, or Negator, since most builds don't run all three (or possibly Goyf I guess).

I understand the potential of Ritual -> Hippy, but with 12 discard spells available you WILL have one at your disposal. Are you really going to wait till AFTER you drop a crature to cast your discard? That sounds sill to me what with Belcher going off turn 1, Ichoroid wanting to discard things, turning Daze into a two for one, or them just holding a Plow or Bolt.

So if we're not casting it off ritual (unless you draw two i guess) then Hippy becomes a HORRIBLE turn 3-4 drop (right?) unlike negator, who has some drawbacks, but is big enough to be scary at any point of the game, or Confidant, who is cheaper and isn't useless if your opponent has dumped his hand.

Tacosnape

12-17-2007, 06:03 PM

I think 8 is the maximum you could run thougtseize + hymn,

If 8 discard spells is all you're running, there is absolutely no reason to run this deck. BGW Survival runs an average of 8 discard spells, and it's a hell of a lot better deck than Suicide Black. It would have a better aggro match, a better control match, and at the point where you equalize the discard, as good of a combo match as well, if not better due to Tarmogoyf.

Extirpate

Extirpate is a terrible card in Suicide Black, or in any aggro deck in general. There isn't a single worse choice for your graveyard hate, including Withered Wretch. Extirpate does absolutely nothing to improve your board standing, nets your opponent card advantage of 1 and a tempo boost of the black mana you spent, and only helps you in the mid to late game, where Suicide Black is a sitting duck anyway. It's weaker against Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, and Threshold than Leyline or Planar Void, considering you have little trouble whatsoever knocking their removal spells out of their hand via Duress/Thoughtseize.

EDIT: Also, I don't find Hypnotic Specter to be a horrible turn 3 drop. In principle, 3 for a 2/2 is bad, no question. However, in actual play, more often than not the board is still okay at this juncture. If you weren't playing Specter, you were playing Thoughtseizes, Duresses, Hymns, or Confidants which preoccupied your opposition. Often when Specter comes down on turn three, your opponent -still- has to get rid of him or be in dire straits. Specter also flies, which is crucial, meaning you can stall on the ground in a creature lock while your Specter sails overhead. Plus, this lets him build up Jitte counters unimpeded.

Specter is admittedly weak against aggro, but so is the entire deck. Suicide Black was meant to run over combo and control, and Specter's really good at both.

Phantom

12-17-2007, 06:30 PM

Specter is admittedly weak against aggro, but so is the entire deck. Suicide Black was meant to run over combo and control, and Specter's really good at both.

I do understand this, but what I'm asking is, is there a replacement (in the case of your build, Negator) that is better? I'm not 100% sure which is better against combo (I guess i would have to go deck by deck, but I'd take your word on this) but I like Negator better against control. In the control matchup I've found that Hippy comes down and is either removed, or the deck simply waits to topdeck removal. The fact that it usually swings in after the control deck had a chance to drop Deed or Wrath is what hurts it in my eyes.

Negator faces a similar fate against control where it is either removed, or puts the deck in topdeck removal mode. The difference is that Negator represents a significant clock, whereas Hippy denies them the cards in their hand. This might be overthinking it, but the fact that they haven't played the cards in their hand leads me to believe I would rather put them on a clock than rip mostly mediocre or overcosted bricks and give them more time to topdeck bombs.

While I'm speculating, I disagree that dropping a Hippy into a bad board situation is equivalent to dropping a Confidant into the same bad situation (if this is what you were saying, which I'm not entirely sure it is). Confidants, assuming you are not forced to chump, can actually draw you into answers while Hippies simply deny them. Also, I find the 2cc vs. 3cc a huge difference due to either turn 1 Discard (see the have no removal or rip their only removal) followed by a Confidant is amazing card advantage, and the fact that you can pull this all off turn one with a ritual is huge in my eyes.

Lastly, good point about Jitte (although a 5/5 trampler with Jitte is nothing to sneeze at) but you are only running one mainboard, and I'm assuming the Hippies usually come out vs aggro, so does it even come up that much?

LordEvilTeaCup

12-17-2007, 07:17 PM

I agree Hyppie is not the hottest turn 3 play around. He is, however powerful turn 1 AND turn 2 with mox.

Slayer001

12-18-2007, 08:20 AM

What would you guys use as Sideboard then

4x engineered plague
4x dystopia
4x planar void/leyline of the void
3x Pithing needle / powder keg / engineered explosives ? or what in this spot

Hippie is not the best play turn 3 but it is on turn 1. I only run 3 so I might cut him but I don't know what to put in place (don't have thoughtseize and only 1 tarmogoyf). maybe I need to up the black knight count and carnophage count (I run 3 of each now). Let me know what you guys and girls think. maybe negator ? but I playtested that and he hurts me more at some point then he helps me.

But with more 2 drops the decks will be more dead against chalice on 2 with 1 and 3 cost you can do something.

Maybe withered wretch isn't so good without sarcomancy. I might test it without him also, but what to put in this place ?

Arsenal

12-18-2007, 08:47 AM

Sui Black, as many other decks in Legacy, have alot of 1 and 2cc spells. By having nothing but 1 and 2cc spells, this, imo, worsens your matchup versus Threshold even more. Most of your actual threats now can be (a.) Spell Snared, and (b.) Counterbalanced more easily. And other random decks that Chalice at 1 or 2 (esp. 2) can wreck you. The 3cc slot is something I think Sui Black should keep. It makes random hate like Engineered Explosives a bit tougher (not all multi-colored run 3 colors; Goblins), and helps with CounterTop. Now of course, the goal is to make them discard CounterTop/Explosives/Keg/etc before they get a chance to play them, but we all know that it doesn't always happen like that. I think whatever the Hippy slot is, it should be 3cc (Hippy/Negator/etc).

Tacosnape

12-18-2007, 02:23 PM

What would you guys use as Sideboard then

4x engineered plague
4x dystopia
4x planar void/leyline of the void
3x Pithing needle / powder keg / engineered explosives ? or what in this spot

Suicide Black's sideboard should nearly always be:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Graveyard Hate that ends in "Void" or "Jailer."
4 Pithing Needle
3 Other Cards

The -other- slot should generally be Dystopia or Perish if you maindeck Jitte, and Jitte if you don't, though certain metagames might call for a more bizarre choice. For example, in a metagame with Solidarity, Mono White Control, Mono Black Control, and two Goblin decks, I ran Persecute once.

Maybe withered wretch isn't so good without sarcomancy. I might test it without him also, but what to put in this place ?

Wretch blows regardless of how you slice the cake. Yixlid Jailer is stronger if you want maindeck yard hate. It doesn't tie up your mana and singlehandedly shuts decks down. If not, there are bigger and badder threats to be run.

freakish777

12-18-2007, 02:51 PM

Wretch blows regardless of how you slice the cake. Yixlid Jailer is stronger if you want maindeck yard hate. It doesn't tie up your mana and singlehandedly shuts decks down. If not, there are bigger and badder threats to be run.

With the exception of the Landstill (running Crucible) match up (or any deck running Crucible really).

Slayer001

12-18-2007, 03:14 PM

Think i'm going to run 3x Pithing Needle or 3x powder keg in that slot

Tacosnape

12-18-2007, 03:49 PM

With the exception of the Landstill (running Crucible) match up (or any deck running Crucible really).

No, no exception, Wretch still blows.

Landstill will more than likely kill your Wretch, for one thing. Second, Wretch can't swing through Mishra's Factory. Third, unless you're running Wasteland, what exactly do you care about them recurring with Crucible? None of their lands will hit the yard. Fourth, It's easier just to knock Crucible of Worlds out of their hand. Fifth, if they're tapping three for Crucible, that's effort they aren't spending defending against your attacks. If they've already stopped your onslaught enough to play Crucible, you lost anyway.

Pithing Needle is your god card in this matchup, not Wretch.

Slayer001

12-18-2007, 04:12 PM

What would you suggest instead of 2 Wretch then 1 more hippie I run 3 now and 1 more black knight or what ? Powder keg is also nice with all those artifacts around But I guess it will be 3x Pithing Needle in SB its good against everything that trusts very much on fetches and other activated abilities :smile: but i might test out powder keg this friday just to see what it does against annoying artifacts or engineered explosives dunno which of them 2 would be best

ebbitten

12-19-2007, 01:16 AM

priest of gix?

Arsenal

12-19-2007, 10:34 AM

I don't see the advantages of Priest of Gix. He's a 2/1 for 3cc who's ability is rather situational. If you don't have an outlet for the BBB, you end up with a 3cc 2/1 that you paid 3 life for. For 3cc, I want either (a.) an absolute monster like Negator, or (b.) a creature with a gdlk effect/ability like Hippy. Yeah, the Priest can do some cute things (and "cute" doesn't always equate to "good") occasionally, but with us playing Rituals, and mostly 1cc and 2cc spells, I don't see a need for Priest of Gix. After the CiP, he's a 2/1 vanilla craeture for 3cc. That's not efficient enough for Sui Black imo.

C.P.

12-19-2007, 10:42 AM

priest of gix?

It's a horrible topdeck, and even if it comes down as 'free' 2/1, It's just a weak creature without equipment.Unless you run like, 4 jittes and 4 scrolls or something, it's not worth it. Even if you do, it's still pretty bad.

Slayer001

12-19-2007, 04:50 PM

Hmm not him, he's not good enough, it has to be a huge beater :smile:

Arsenal

12-20-2007, 09:46 AM

Hmm not him, he's not good enough, it has to be a huge beater :smile:

Yeah, for 3 mana, I want either a huge monster like Negator, or a creature with average P/T, but with a gdlk ability/game altering effect (like Hippy most times when he becomes active).

Or if you don't run a creature in the 3cc slot, you'd want a spell that deals with your most problematic Game 1 matchups.

xsockmonkeyx

12-20-2007, 10:59 AM

What is everyone's opinion of Dunerider Outlaw? I found him to be a house in the threshold matchup and good answer to random Tarmogoyfs from other decks.

AnwarA101

12-20-2007, 11:19 AM

Arsenal

12-20-2007, 11:40 AM

True. That Worlds list that was posted a couple pages back had a green splash for Goyf' only. I guess that makes sense, and maybe Krosan Grip in SB. The tradeoff off is Leyline of the Void and Dystopia becoming less effective out of your board. Is Goyf' plus random other green goodies good enough to have fundamental SB changes, as well as slightly weaken your manabase? Also, don't you open yourself up to your opponent's Goyf' hate now?

EDIT: Also, this is just another clear example of how Goyf' is nearing the level of being broken. It's either you play him, with having to make big changes to your overall deck/sideboard, or you're required to play something that deals with him immediately. If you do neither, you lose.

DOUBLE EDIT: RE: The Outlaw, I find Leyline + Dystopia + our already potent removal/disruption suite to be enough to handle Goyf'. Outlaw is too narrow imo.

technogeek5000

12-20-2007, 03:17 PM

Why isn't this thread actively exploring playing Tarmogoyf in Suicide Black? I see everyone mentioning answers to Tarmogoyf, but the least conditional answer to Tarmogoyf is Tarmogoyf. Is there any reason not to run him outside of budget concerns? I understand he costs too much money, but other than that I can't see a reason not to play him.

Green is pretty much excepted as the best splash. I know when i can come across 4 goyfs then i will be playing it. But until i do ill stick with my white splash. Bugdet is the main reason that people pick up this deck so adding 4 duals, 8 fetches, and 4 goyfs you kind of kill that. People will splash green when goyf drops in price.

Tacosnape

12-20-2007, 04:27 PM

Not splashing Green (Or not splashing at all, rather), however, has its advantages. Immunity to Wasteland, Stifle, Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, and Back to Basics, which are all seeing increased play in the format in large part due to several decks splashing colors for Tarmogoyf, is a pretty solid benefit.

Additionally, if you run Tarmogoyf, it starts becoming harder to pick your graveyard hate in sideboard. I personally enjoy being able to run *.Void in sideboard and know that its strengths are completely one-sided in your favor.

Also, the additional life-loss from your Fetchlands adds up, as Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, and in some builds Carnophage are all subtracting from your life total as it is.

Tarmogoyf just forces us to find a versatile creature removal threat for the deck. In other words, we don't have to run 'Goyf (We certainly -can-, but I don't think we have to.) We just need ways to answer him that don't completely suck if we're not facing him.

Thoughtseize pro-actively fills this role. Hymn can, on occasion, as can Nantuko Shade. Beyond that, our options are fairly limited to Umezawa's Jitte, Smother, or some other targeted removal spell like Terror. (We pick up Snuff Out if we don't run Confidant.)

EDIT: I do concur that Green is a very strong splash due to Tarmogoyf, Krosan Grip, and possibly even Wild Mongrel.

Slayer001

12-20-2007, 05:26 PM

Not going for a splash either, for the reasons taco said and because tarmo is to expensive at the moment, first I need a playset of thoughtseize

we have enough answers to goyf in this deck and defenately after SB

but green is a very strong splash but vunerable aswel to wastelands, to pain. I also run fetch in my Mono black deck jsut for deck thinning and with urborg you can use them as swamps if you don't want to pay a life. If I can get my hands on 3 more goyfs I'll test it out :smile:

Tacosnape

12-20-2007, 11:58 PM

I think I might be the only one who owns 4 or more Thoughtseizes/Tarmogoyfs (8/4 respectively, need moar Goyf) who isn't splashing. I still think the untouchable manabase is one of the largest strengths of the deck, especially with Stifle and *.Moon ridiculously on the rise. I seriously completely laugh at decks running Stifle with my build, as the best thing they have to do with it is to Stifle a Confidant draw.

Slayer001

12-21-2007, 05:59 AM

indeed, more and more decks are running stifle that's true, and it doesn't do us anything, they can stifle my fetch but I'll throw them on with an urborg, they just give me mana like any other swamp :)

fetch is great even if it is mono-black, deck thinning is always good. What do you guys think of sensei's divining top

end of turn top then confi so less dmg from confi. maybe I go test it out someday, but it will look more then picula that way. But it will replace creatures, removal or dicard and we need those but I'll try it out someday

Shtriga

12-21-2007, 07:07 AM

Slayer001

12-21-2007, 08:57 AM

In my Opinion Plague Sliver is to expensive ans more lifeloss besides fetch, confi and carnophage don't know if that is good. But I'll try it some day, before I make further comments :)

Arsenal

12-21-2007, 01:59 PM

Also, inclusion of Goyf' would effect your SB. Leyline of the Void and Dystopia aren't the 4-of auto-includes they once were with you running Goyf' and other green cards potentially (Mongrel, etc). What becomes of your SB then?

AnwarA101

12-21-2007, 02:16 PM

Arsenal

12-21-2007, 02:43 PM

Yes I know you can't really run Dystopia, but you know what you get: Tarmogoyf. One of the most ridiculous beaters in the game. It also helped by the fact that your playing discard which allows you to fuel Tarmogoyf like crazy. Sure there are issues with splashing green, but I don't think they outweigh playing Tarmogoyf.

Not only Dystopia, but Leyline of the Void as well becomes less effective as GY hate, as you would now depend on the yard to power Goyf'. I hate that one card is forcing this deck to make drastic maindeck/sideboard changes to accomodate it. So dumb.

nitewolf9

12-21-2007, 02:46 PM

The most ridiculous beater in the game.

Fixed. Tarmogoyf is exactly what you want: an undercosted monster that puts your opponent on a quick clock. Green also gives you more sideboard options as well. Or you could just run dystopia anyway. Even with tarmogoyf that card hurts the decks you bring it in against alot more than it hurts you. And running leyline of the void with tarmogoyf is not an issue.

Arsenal

12-21-2007, 02:49 PM

And running leyline of the void with tarmogoyf is not an issue.

How do you figure? Goyf' feeds off the yards of both players, Leyline of the Void takes away 50% of Goyf's resources, and he's now solely dependant on your yard accumulating cards quickly. If your opponent sided in some GY hate (which mono-black would've laughed at), your Goyf' isn't very scary anymore.

Please explain how Leyline off the Void + Goyf' = synergy.

AnwarA101

12-21-2007, 02:51 PM

How do you figure? Goyf' feeds off the yards of both players, Leyline of the Void takes away 50% of Goyf's resources, and he's now solely dependant on your yard accumulating cards quickly. If your opponent sided in some GY hate (which mono-black would've laughed at), your Goyf' isn't very scary anymore.

Please explain how Leyline off the Void + Goyf' = synergy.

You bring Leyline against decks where its devastating (Ichorid, Breakfast, etc.). In those matchups if your opponent brings in graveyard hate against you it seems very ineffective as your other creatures like Hyppie and Shade don't rely on the graveyard. Why would they bring in yard hate against you?

Arsenal

12-21-2007, 02:55 PM

To keep the one creature, that you've now altered your maindeck and sideboard for, harmless. Also, most SBs do not have Sui Black hate cards, but many do have Leyline of the Void. I could definitely see your opponent, not really knowing what else you play in your Sui Black (if you've splashed for green and included Goyf', Grip, Mongrel), I'm sure he's wondering what other fundamental changes you've made.

And even if your opponent doesn't bring in GY in on you in game 2, I still don't see how your Leyline of the Void + Goyf' = synergy. If anything, both cards lose their effectiveness when both are in play. Please explain this to me. Am I not reading the wording correctly?

AnwarA101

12-21-2007, 03:01 PM

Tacosnape

12-21-2007, 03:07 PM

one of the top 8 lists in GP Columbus ran Plague sliver

tried it on MWS; it's a bit on the expensive side, I have to ritual it out to get the most out of it, but it beats tarmogoyf most of the time and beats CounterSliver :P. it's also resilient to engineered explosives and somewhat to pernicious deed

I think if you are going to run a fatty in Sui Black (And I'm not counting Negator with this, because that's a whole 'nother discussion), that Plague Sliver's probably the top choice. As no more than a 2-of, as having multiples in play causes severe life loss.

However, Plague Sliver's kind of iffy. He's big, but he's really hard to cast in a deck that can't afford to miss a turn because it can't get a threat out. Sure, you can Ritual him out turn 2, but wouldn't that ritual be better spent on turn one going Ritual/Specter, Ritual/Thoughtseize/Confidant, Ritual/Carnophage/Hymn, Ritual/Duress/Hymn, or one of a ton of other combinations?

As for Counterslivers, it's a tough fight without Plague Sliver giving you an auto-win. Thoughtseize is a ninja commando from hell in this matchup, but game one is still very tough to pull off. Postboard, Dystopia helps, or if you don't have it, Engineered Plague, Jitte, and Scroll can all combine to try and keep the slivers at bay (Thoughtseizing Crystalline Sliver helps.) However, I haven't seen Slivers played nearly enough yet to warrant Plague Sliver's inclusion.

Arsenal

12-21-2007, 03:22 PM

And running leyline of the void with tarmogoyf is not an issue.

Anwar, although nitewolf did not say the specific word "synergy", this sentence led me to believe that there isn't any problems or issues with running Leyline + Goyf'. If there isn't anything negative to playing both, then one would assume that there must be positives. Sorry if I inferred something that wasn't there, but this was what I was originally responding to.

Phantom

12-21-2007, 03:30 PM

I always hesitate to disagree with respected players about a deck I don't play that much, but I think you guys are nuts. I don't see how mildly affecting your manabase isn't worth running the best beater in the format.

- Are Stifle and Waste realy that much of a concern? The deck curves out often @2. I can see an argument for Stifle being a bitch (does this deck have problems with many blue decks?) but Wasteland hardly seems an actual concern. Waste won't stop you from casting goyf, and costs them a land. As a deck that runs waste itself trading land for land isn't that awful. Also, I think I would run fetches in the deck no matter what. I would much rather die to my own damage than my shitty topdecks. Lastly, even if they completely cut you off from your duals through waste/stifle/extirpate/moon you're out a whopping 4/60 cards (and that's just game 1)! Is that threat really worth not upping the objective power of the deck greatly? I mean, with the disruption this deck can throw out turn 1, I would figure an extremely nasty beater to follow on turn two would be right up Sui Blacks alley.

- I'm not buying a need for a change in Sideboarding either. The Worlds deck ran 4 Leyline in the board, which is imo the best yard hate available, and it worked fine. The decks you board Leyline in against you probably won't care that Goyf is only a 3/4ish. And if you do care, board him out! Hell, I would still run Distopia despite their apparent dis-synergy. I've run Deed in plenty of decks with Goyf. The key is, don't drop it unless you're up shits creek. And once again, you have the option to board him out if you choose.

Arsenal

12-21-2007, 03:58 PM

Phantom -

The point is that those cards, Stifle/Magus/B2B/Wasteland/etc, were all 100% dead cards for your opponent. By including Goyf, you've now made them all relevant to varying degrees.

If your deck already supported green, I can see him included. By wedging him into mono-colored decks, like Sui and even MUC (I shit you not, there was talks of doing this), you gain a beater. But at what cost?

Also, if you're so quick to add Goyf', and accept the potential changes that go along with that, why not consider just running a bit more spot removal? Shade can hang with Goyf', and if you up your removal count to 6-8, I don't see a problem.

Phantom

12-21-2007, 04:29 PM

Phantom -
The point is that those cards, Stifle/Magus/B2B/Wasteland/etc, were all 100% dead cards for your opponent. By including Goyf, you've now made them all relevant to varying degrees.

Completely disagree with this except in the rare build that runs no fetches and no wastes/Urborgs. I have made them MORE relevant (slightly in some cases) but they all did something against you before (if they want to board in B2B against me I'll do a flip). Also, you have stengthened the power of your deck against EVERY deck.

If your deck already supported green, I can see him included. By wedging him into mono-colored decks, like Sui and even MUC (I shit you not, there was talks of doing this), you gain a beater. But at what cost?

I'll say it again. You mildly affect your mana base to often no effect even against the few decks running LD in exchange for the best creature ever printed. I'll do this six days a week and twice on sunday.

Also, if you're so quick to add Goyf', and accept the potential changes that go along with that, why not consider just running a bit more spot removal? Shade can hang with Goyf', and if you up your removal count to 6-8, I don't see a problem.

The writing here is a tad convoluted. Are you suggesting that instead of running Goyf I simply run answers for him? The reason I don't do that is basic Magic deckbuilding theory. Answers suck. Threats are awesome. Answers can be useless. Threats never are. And I LOVE Shade, but there is no reason I can't run both and drop all the crappy 3cc options like Hippy or Negator.

Blacktail

12-21-2007, 05:00 PM

I have had a lot of experience running goyf in red death, and suicide black, and I have discovered that the reward is much greater than the risk. Goyf gets huge when backed with discard, and makes your clock so much faster.

It really does improve your matchups against every deck. There is no tempo lost in a splash, you only need 1 green mana for 1 turn, so wastelands don't effect you that much. The deck runs off of 2 mana, your lands getting wasted really isn't that horrible in most cases. you only need 3 bayou, and say 8 fetches.

I have also run 8 fetches, 4 confidants, and 4 thoughtseizes main, and the damage really isn't as bad as you guys make it out to be.

Seeing as you have a faster clock, what does it matter if you take a bit more damage? The only drawback is that it increases the cost of the deck, but that isn't all that bad, seeing as sinkholes and moxes are already pricey as it is.

Goyf + Discard, especially hymn is stupid good, and creates a situation that most decks cannot get out of.

Green sideboarding options cannot be overlooked either. Krosan Grip destroys some of the greatest threats to Sui Black, such as humility, deed, counterbalance, etc...

I know many of you play sui black because of the stable mana base, but your mana base is still very resilient with the splash. Give the green splash a shot, if you haven't tried it yet. What do you have to lose?

Arsenal

12-21-2007, 05:40 PM

Phantom -

I run a very similiar list to Taco's build, and I do not run anything but 18 Swamp and 4 Dark Rituals as mana sources. No Wastelands, no Urborg secret tech, no fetches. Just rock-solid Swamps. If we are in the minority, then I'm speaking from the minority's point of view; non-basic hate cards are 100% dead versus me.

Using your logic, every deck in Magic should splash green for Goyf'. I do not agree with your reasoning behind adding a 2nd color to a mono-colored deck.

Also, re: threats v. answers, I do not agree. If that was the case, control would have been the worst archetype throughtout the history of Magic, as 95% of their decks aren't threats, but answers or answer-finders. Using your logic of Threats > Answers 100% of the time, why have decks like Keeper and GAT been successful in their respective Format? They only run 2-6 cards that are actually threats, the rest of their deck are simply answers and answer-finders.