[Deck] Suicide Black [Archive] - Page 6

Baumeister

04-28-2008, 06:40 PM

Card value is a tricky thing. If you can afford Sinkholes and Thoughtseizes, you can afford fetches. The list as given has a bunch of $10+ cards and a few $20+ cards, so it's hardly a "budget" deck. So: how would you build suicide (mono-)black without Sinkhole?

That depends on how much money you want to sink into this deck. The deck still has a few other mid-priced rares in it, but I would go:

Lands (20)
17x Swamp
3x Wasteland

Creatures (20)
4x Sarcomancy
4x Carnophage
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant/Stromgald Crusader/Black Knight
4x Phyrexian Negator

Other Spells (20)
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress/Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Toughtseize/Cabal Therapy
4x Smother/Snuff Out

Sideboard (15)
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Engineered Plague
7x Meta-determined

This style of Suicide Black is faster, and less powerful in the late game. You can have crazy explosive openings that knock the opponent back. In my opinion, Sinkhole fits the deck well since it is constructed to abuse the tempo gain, but this version works pretty well.

On another note, running Tombstalker in this deck as more than a two-of almost requires the use of fetchlands to make them any good. This deck can't get enough cards from its hand into the gravyard to get down Tombstalker very early. I agree with Clark Kant, at that point, just splash green and make Eva Green - it's a better, faster, more disruptive deck. The biggest thing mono-black has going for it is mana base resiliance, but with the printing of Tarmogoyf, it's worth it to splash for that much of a body.

Clark Kant

04-29-2008, 07:41 AM

A lot of older players have the old cards like Sinkholes already as they weren't too pricy back in the day.

For a truly budget sui black list, I would drop Wastelands, Sinkholes completely, probalby run something like this...

3 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Ashenmoor Gouger

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Wrench Mind - Not sure, never ran the card.
4 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory/Swamp
16 Swamp

Tombstalker, Jitte and Shade can run you around $25 a playset to get, but I think they are worth the investment. If you can't afford them, other options maybe that flip card that turns into a 3/3 + Rack, and Rotting Giant or Flesh Reaver.

Jaiminho

04-29-2008, 05:44 PM

Which is the best sideboard answer for Chalice? I'd say Powder Keg, since it can go down for Chalices with Trinisphere on the table and is more versatile (but slower) than Engineered Explosives in this deck.

Has anyone run it? I've seen it suggested, but never seen it played. My SB would look something like this:

3-4 Dystopia
3-4 Powder Keg
4 Planar Void or Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague

Damnosus

05-14-2008, 10:34 AM

Hello folks, I was just looking to get some advice on my list as I was using it last night to casually play some people and it was getting beat pretty badly by a couple of things (T2 MBC, T2 W token control thing, Legacy fires of yavimaya). I will admit that I had some pretty crappy hands, and since it was only casual I was keeping things I probably wouldn't under normal circumstances, however I was getting a little annoyed at losing a few games due to things I really couldn't control (especially to the type 2 decks). Ok here is the list as I am running it at the moment:

18 Swamp

4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Stromgald
1 Carnophage

4 Dark Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Profane Command
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

The sideboard is unnecessary as I really was not using it, although admittedly it would have made my matchups a lot easier. Additionally, the lone carnophage is there because I haven't gotten a hold of a 4th thoughtseize.

So, the majority of my complaints were centered around one card that I have never had problems with before: sarcomancy. Normally it does really well, and I get around the whole needing a zombie thing by playing Stromgald crusader (as I was delighted to find that he is also a zombie). However, last night, in multiple games, I just kept dying because I couldn't find a zombie and the sarcomancies would ping me every turn. It was rather frustrating. My question is should I write this off as bad luck and leave it, change the slot to Carnophages (same thing but I can control the damage), or change it entirely to duresses?

Another problem I had was with crusader. I am just unsure if he is worth it. I mean there are many times when I have to trade creatures using him when either a black knight or a Order would have been able to simply kill the opposing creature. Yes they can block flyers, such as those oh so dangerous ornithoptors with cranial plating, but its annoying having to trade. Should I keep them, or change them out for Black knights or Orders, or something entirely different?

Finally, I feel like the entire deck is not as fast as I thought it would be. I mean against the fires deck, there were so many times when I had the lead but I would not be able to kill him fast enough, so he would be able to get a saporling burst out and crush me. Is my version of the deck too slow, is it meant to be slower than most aggo decks due to the large disruption package, or should I chalk this one up to the deck being weak against aggro (which I know it is)?

Thanks for any and all advice!

Jaiminho

05-14-2008, 12:51 PM

MTL10

05-14-2008, 01:05 PM

why would anyone wanna play a suicide black list without dark confidant? can anyone tell me? there's absolutely NO REASON to cut the card!! seriously!! it's by far the most powerful card in the deck, more than sinkhole, more than tombstalker, more than wasteland, and yes, more than TARMOGOYF. nobody can sway my opinion otherwise. Bob gets so much hate that u can usually get there with just a tarmogoyf or nantuko shade or something like that. and if they don't get rid of bob, he's going to kill your opponent with all the amazing card advantage he gives you... as a 2 drop.... he's fucking incredable

Jaiminho

05-14-2008, 01:10 PM

The only lists around here Dark Confidants are supposed to be budget lists or something. Anyway, some people like the explosiveness of Tomstalker. Also, the shift key says hello.

Damnosus

05-14-2008, 01:38 PM

Sword of Fire and Ice is 1 mana slower than Jitte and won't recover you from life loss from Thoughtseize and Sarcomany. Also, it's not nearly as efficient as Jitte when doubling as removal.

You run seven creature removal spells maindeck. That's a holy damn lot of slots dedicated for that. I only run 3 Smothers and, for me, that has been enough.

Profane Command? Isn't that slow as hell? Usually, you want to disrupt your opponent's hand of things that won't not let you win the game on the first turns and then win right away.

Hippie might be good, but he sucks balls against aggro. I'd rather have Crusader for that match up since he costs less and carries Jitte just like Hippie would. He dodges STP, by the way, which tends to be useful against random aggro. Still, not like having 4 Hippies is bad, since Crusader sucks too much mana for only a few more damage.

I suggest:

-1 SoFI
-1 Command
-1 Carnophage
-1 Smother
-3 Diabolic Edict
-2 Swamp
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Jitte
+3 Cabal Therapy/Duress
+4 Wasteland

Thanks for the advice Jaiminho, however I am curious about a couple of your comments. First off I will agree with removing the Command (as it is too slow, and it usually doesn't do much for me), and the Carnophage (as that was just a placeholder for the 4th Thoughtseize). The rest of your cuts aren't as clear cut. While Sword of Fire and Ice is slower it makes my game against any red removal so much better. Plus it is an equipment that isn't destroyed by an opponent's Jitte hitting the board. As for the creature kill, what am I supposed to do against large creatures that cost more than 3? Or for that matter shrouded creatures such as Blasto/calciderm or mongoose? I will agree that maybe removing one edict might be a good idea, but really, how do 3 smothers and 4 thoughtseizes prevent large creature beatdown?

Now for the wastelands: you don"t think that that would make my mana base far more unstable? Plus I feel like many of the people I play can get around them if there aren't too many (many players don't have the money for expensive non-basics, or they only need them for small splashes).

Finally do you think it is a good idea to keep the sarcomancies? Might Carnophage be a better choice?

I am curious Jaiminho as to how your list does against say goblins or goyf sligh.

Thanks for the advice thus far!

MTL10

05-14-2008, 02:06 PM

The only lists around here Dark Confidants are supposed to be budget lists or something. Anyway, some people like the explosiveness of Tomstalker. Also, the shift key says hello.

I never said anything against Tombstalker. He's pretty amazing too. I run both Dark Confidant AND Tombstalker in my list of suiblack. Maybe it's a little suicidal, but the card advantage from Confidant vs. the chances of hitting 3/60 cards that'll do 8 damage to you on your upkeep is so worth it that i'm willing to chance it.
By the way, HI SHIFT KEY!!!!!

Jaiminho

05-14-2008, 02:49 PM

While Sword of Fire and Ice is slower it makes my game against any red removal so much better. Plus it is an equipment that isn't destroyed by an opponent's Jitte hitting the board.

I've not been bothered much by opponent playing Jitte, since it almost never happens around here. The only one who plays it (sideboard, by the way) is a Boros deck, which is already a bad matchup. Anyway, I think SoFI is too slow for this deck because, since you usually won't be able to play it and equip in the same turn, your opponent might just burn the creature in response to equipping, trading 1 for 1+tempo, or not care if the game is almost over already. If you actually can play and equip in the same turn (saving Dark Ritual for this seems strange, since it's taking away explosiveness on turns 1 and 2), the game is not in your favor or you've managed to take the gas off your opponent. In the first case, equipping won't do much, since you'll die soon enough and SoFI won't help avoid that. In the second case, it might just not matter which equip you have, since both would finish the game quicker and would avoid stalemates.

As for the creature kill, what am I supposed to do against large creatures that cost more than 3?

Delay them with discards and Wasteland and rush over. That's probably the best you can do. Given that, Tombstalker is your worst enemy, since it doesn't cost shit to play and discarding things only make him come down faster.

Or for that matter shrouded creatures such as Blasto/calciderm or mongoose?

I've never faced any *derms like ever. Against mongoose, you'd need a Jitte online or a Nantuko Shade on the table to actually take him down. This is when the decision between Smother and Edict is hard to make. You just gotta play the best one for your meta. You might even play both, but just like Edict sucks against swarms, Smother sucks against shroud, but it will always be able to target Goyf.

I will agree that maybe removing one edict might be a good idea, but really, how do 3 smothers and 4 thoughtseizes prevent large creature beatdown?

Given both questions above, if you actually face decks in which one card is much better than the other, a split between them might be fine. I just think running too much removal is wasting slots.

Now for the wastelands: you don"t think that that would make my mana base far more unstable?

I rarely have a problem with that. Running 16 Swamps and 4 Dark Rituals is enough for playing Hymn, Shade, Crusader and Hippie on time. You will obviously have situations in which you'd wish a Wasteland was a Swamp, but shit happens.

Plus I feel like many of the people I play can get around them if there aren't too many (many players don't have the money for expensive non-basics, or they only need them for small splashes).

Wasteland is very good for making splashed cards bad. Anyway, if you think playing them it won't reward you, then don't. They usually don't stay in my way against those mono colored decks, though.

Finally do you think it is a good idea to keep the sarcomancies? Might Carnophage be a better choice?

I like Sarcomancy. I hate Carnophage. Sarcomancy in multiples won't kill you unless your opponent gets rid of both tokens. Just don't overextend into the potential life loss here, since getting all tokens killed might make it so you get hit for too much each turn. Also, if you are at very low life and need something to finish your opponent, Carnophage is the worst topdeck ever, unless you have Jitte. It may even suck then, depending on the deck you are facing. I've always felt comfortable after taking Carnophages out.

I am curious Jaiminho as to how your list does against say goblins or goyf sligh.

Against goblins, it's crucial that you get a Jitte online, or you pretty much lose. They have more creatures, their creatures are as big as yours and they don't get life hits on themselves. Post sideboard, Jitte and Plague are your weapons, but there is always Krosan Grip.

Never faced Goyf Sligh, but faced Boros decks. The principle is the same, but the creatures are smaller. I hate this kind of match. If aggro gets to be a big problem for you, cut Hippie and add Rotting Giant. That thing being 3/3 helps a lot, even against goblins, since you now have more creatures bigger than theirs. I used to run Massacre as a SB tech against Boros when running Rotting Giant.

By the way, HI SHIFT KEY!!!!!

:laugh: Sorry. Didn't mean to be harsh. It's just that it's a requirement for posting here.

Arsenal

05-14-2008, 02:50 PM

Damnosus

05-14-2008, 04:09 PM

Damnosus -

Suicide Black is a horrible deck to use against dedicated aggro. If you're seeing lots of Stompy-variants, Goblins, Goyf Sligh, and random aggro, you should play a different deck.

If you're facing lots of control, combo, and aggro-control sprinkled in, then you should be beasting.

Yes I definitely know about this. I was just getting a bit frustrated especially when I lost against a type 2 mono black control deck :mad: , and a type 2 mono white thing, which i feel really shouldn't happen.

I originally thought my meta would be control/combo, but last night the guy who normally plays a variety of combo decks pulled out goblins, and then of course there is the one guy who plays fires, so now I don't know whether to run this deck anymore, which annoys me cause I don't have anything else at the moment.

Shtriga

05-15-2008, 09:22 AM

with boarded engineered plagues, jittes, and you could even run SB damnation maybe, you could have a fair game vs saprolings and goblins, assuming the role of the control player

Galroth

06-21-2008, 09:47 PM

Suicide Black has died. Or at the very least it has died on these boards. Noobs will always find a way to play mono-black aggro; but for a moment there, it seemed we almost had a competitive legacy build.

Eva Green, Red Death, and Deadguy have stolen Suicide's thunder. Each taking a turn with popularity. But I feel shame whenever I splash another color. Black wasn't meant for that sort of sullying. It needs no help.

I know there are a few of you who are behind me. The rest of you can suck it dry! So let's try to revive this dieing breed. I want to see some innovative lists which drip potential to rock; an idea that we can develop and optimize, throw away if need be and start fresh. Now lets get this discussion rolling!

My first attempt and revitalizing Suicide

Threats (19 + 2)
4x Dusk Urchin
4x Dark Confidant
3x Bitterblossom
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
2x Unearth
Disruption (15)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Snuff Out
Mana (24)
4x Dark Ritual
3x Chrome Mox
17x Swamp

I use to play a similar build that incorporated land destruction, Phyrexian Negator and Tombstalker. My old deck could power out some beautiful plays, but I found that I was just absolutely crushing control and combo, while relying on only luck to battle out other arch-types. In most of these games I'd deplete my hand in very little time, and if the game wasn't virtually finisehd by turn 3 I'd be left with little hope.

So what's changed? My creature selection is a little more robust, and it's primarily directed towards some card advantage. Dark Confidant, Dusk Urchin, and Hypnotic Specter can make up for any acceleration used to bring them into play by quickly replacing those cards, or removing them from the opponents hands. An early bitter blossom is similar in that multiple cards are usually needed to rid the game of both tokens and the enchantment. Negator and Tombstalker were a bit more tempermental, but if they didn't when soon as they were in play, then it was a lost hope. This creature set-up allows for a little more constant stream of threats and answers which, in my testing, has placed more relentless pressure on my opponents. This constant draw of more threats and discard led me to favor this build in the current meta over previous builds. Suicide black can't keep up with the explosivity and tempo of Tarmogoyf or Dragon Stompy. In my opinion, it needs to take on a slightly more aggro-control role. This creature suite allows for that.

Why was land destruction cut? When Thoughtseize was printed it was an easy include to the traditional discard suite of Duress and Hymn. To make room for the card we could either cut threats or disruption. I absolutely refuse to drop below 18x threats and I think anyone doing so is awfully foolish. I'd prefer a few more. So it had to be the disruption suite which gets the axe. The land destruction suite was better suited for the early explosive plays which include fueling out a quick negator and trying to the end the game in 5 turns. This creature selection isn't the same and land destruction doesn't help the strategy much. Land destruction was only excellent in a few match-ups, none of which were suicides weak match-ups. It's typically best against control and any deck heavily multi-colored deck. A more efficient discard suite allowed for cutting the land destruction without weakening these match-ups by much, especially when it was backed by threats producing some sort of card advantage.

Finally I suppose Unearth deserves for some discussion. Back when I ran Phyrexian Negator and Tombstalker, Unearth was a little less useful. If Negator was taken out of the picture, Unearthing Negator wasn't likely to lead you to the win, even if you had the permanents to even do such a thing. Tombstalker wasn't even a viable target. Bitterblossom isn't much of a target either, but Unearth is impressive when it fetches any other creature in this deck. This slot could just as easily be Jitte I suppose. The life gain and and removal of Jitte makes it a solid include (but I don't have any, and Unearth has been... interesting).

Time for feedback, thoughts, flames and creativity.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-21-2008, 09:52 PM

Suicide Black may not be entirely dead, it recently took two top four spots at a twelve person tournament in Rhode Island.

However, black does need that help. Any other splash would bring better creatures, removal, or disruption.

Galroth

06-21-2008, 10:01 PM

I'd have to disagree that any splash would bring better disruption. There are very few better disruption spells that what black has available. However, you're entirely right that other splashes do bring better creatures and removal (even if they're only a single creature spell or removal spell which a whole color is splashed for).

And of course the opposing arguments against a splash are:

A mana-base that can be stifled and wasted
A weaker acceleration package
And the remote possibility of not seeing the mana color you needIt's fairly obvious that presently the splashes are more successful than mono-b Sui. I suppose it's always bothered me a little. Especially when those splashes are just for a single card in a color (an exaggeration, but often close to the case).

dude 666

06-21-2008, 10:19 PM

And of course the opposing arguments against a splash are:

A mana-base that can be stifled and wasted
A weaker acceleration package
And the remote possibility of not seeing the mana color you need

About the manabase, if 3c landstill can run 4 (or is it 6 now?) basics, I think it's safe to say you can make a manabase thats pretty stifle and waste-proof.

The problem with the acceleration package is that you're not accelerating into anything significant, and the card disadvantage isn't worth the speed benefit. Suicide black isn't like dragon or faerie stompy where the acceleration is into powerful disruption pieces and scary creatures.

Jaiminho

06-21-2008, 11:30 PM

I do think this deck is worst than Eva Green in any way. I used to play it, until I realised it was so hard to do well against a diversified meta.

The problem with the acceleration package is that you're not accelerating into anything significant, and the card disadvantage isn't worth the speed benefit. Suicide black isn't like dragon or faerie stompy where the acceleration is into powerful disruption pieces and scary creatures.

Nothing is more true than this.

HammafistRoob

06-23-2008, 02:31 AM

Suicide Black may not be entirely dead, it recently took two top four spots at a twelve person tournament in Rhode Island.
It took 1st and 2nd actually, one of them was me.

The list-

MBA(or) Sui Black- by Rob Rogers

Main Deck-60

//Lands-20
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
9 Swamp

//Creatures-13
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
1 Tombstalker

//Instants-14
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Extirpate

//Sorceries-11
4 Thoguthseize
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

//Artifacts-2
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard-15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Darkblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg

I also Top8'd the last Magic 500 in RI which had 35 players.
And Top8'd a few 15-25 player tourneys with similar lists.

I find my list to be VERY good and it hoses all sorts of tribal(except sometimes Gobbz) which is why I play it in my meta. The Factories and Wastelands are to fight off decks that run Standstill. Extirpate main is for this super secret tech of a play.

Opponent turn1- Island, GO
My turn1- Swamp, Ritual, Thoughtseize
Opponent- "response Brainstorm"
me- ok
opponent- Thoughtseize resolves
me-(take card they didn't hide w/ Seize), cast Extirpate(shuffles away their hidden stuff)
opponent- FUCK YOU NOOB, WHO MAINDECKS THAT CARD!!!!!!! rawrrawr RAWR!!!!!!

Anyways, I really do feel that this Achetype has a chance with Tribal gaining popularity. The Matchups on any deck that doesn't play Mountain is fairly good. We no doubt have game vs. Gobbs and DS, but Goyf Sligh is just scary to think about. Any questions on my list shall be answered as best as possible, I know it's savage.

Jak

06-23-2008, 02:34 AM

Why no Bitterblossom?

HammafistRoob

06-23-2008, 02:48 AM

Why no Bitterblossom?

My only reason here is I haven't tested it. I don't test magic ever, I don't have MWS and the only time I play magic is during tournaments(or the night b4). Once in a while I will randomly play some games with Tom(Jan Valentine00) but not usually. I think it no doubt has potential and I will be trying it in the future, just need to think about what to cut for them.

Also, what do you guys think is the safest number of suicide cards this deck should be running. Cuz I am already running alot w/o Bitterblossoms.

Jaiminho

06-23-2008, 11:59 AM

It took 1st and 2nd actually, one of them was me.

The list-

[list]

I also Top8'd the last Magic 500 in RI which had 35 players.
And Top8'd a few 15-25 player tourneys with similar lists.

I find my list to be VERY good and it hoses all sorts of tribal(except sometimes Gobbz) which is why I play it in my meta. The Factories and Wastelands are to fight off decks that run Standstill. Extirpate main is for this super secret tech of a play.

Opponent turn1- Island, GO
My turn1- Swamp, Ritual, Thoughtseize
Opponent- "response Brainstorm"
me- ok
opponent- Thoughtseize resolves
me-(take card they didn't hide w/ Seize), cast Extirpate(shuffles away their hidden stuff)
opponent- FUCK YOU NOOB, WHO MAINDECKS THAT CARD!!!!!!! rawrrawr RAWR!!!!!!

Anyways, I really do feel that this Achetype has a chance with Tribal gaining popularity. The Matchups on any deck that doesn't play Mountain is fairly good. We no doubt have game vs. Gobbs and DS, but Goyf Sligh is just scary to think about. Any questions on my list shall be answered as best as possible, I know it's savage.

Them questions:

- Only 2 Powder Kegs? I'd run 3, if I'd expect any kind of Chalice decks, aggro or not.

- Ghastly Demise? You really got stuff out of all those 7 creature removal cards?

- Zero Hymn to Tourach? I'd guess this is better than those 3 Duress and the 4th Therapy.

- I still have no balls to play Tombstalker with Bob, but I always wanted to play Negator. It seems like your bad MUs become even worse, but the even ones might get favorable with him. Mind explaining why he's in the maindeck?

Shtriga

06-23-2008, 03:29 PM

negator is fat, when he's running 11 non-swamps, nantuko shade isn't as viable. it's not awesome vs burn spells though, and tarmogoyfs when no removal is drawn

I really really want to play him as of late

Clark Kant

06-23-2008, 04:34 PM

IMO Ashenmoor Gouger is superior to Negator. He's a lot less risky.

I might as well post my build, it's been extremely solid.

Land Destruction Suicide

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3/2 Snuff Out
2/3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Bitterblossom/Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Hypnotic Spectar
4 Tombstalker

HammafistRoob

06-23-2008, 05:34 PM

Them questions:

1- Only 2 Powder Kegs? I'd run 3, if I'd expect any kind of Chalice decks, aggro or not.

2- Ghastly Demise? You really got stuff out of all those 7 creature removal cards?

3- Zero Hymn to Tourach? I'd guess this is better than those 3 Duress and the 4th Therapy.

4- I still have no balls to play Tombstalker with Bob, but I always wanted to play Negator. It seems like your bad MUs become even worse, but the even ones might get favorable with him. Mind explaining why he's in the maindeck?

1) The reason why I only ran 2 Powder Kegs was just a last minute thing, I knew I was going to want DBlast as a 3 of. I guess I could have just cut the Needles or something but I was comfortable with this SB.
SB b4 DBlast
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle
3 Powder Keg
1 Extirpate

SB after DBlast
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Darkblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg

The changes helped so much, I didn't side in Keg at all, and Needle only once. Darkblast came in for all of my postboard games(Aluren, Sui Black, Merfolk, Faeries, Merfolk)

2) I think the thing that this deck needs to push it over the top is ALOT of removal. It allows you to swing with Bobs all day(which I always do bcuz my opponent never has dudes out) and it gives Negator some breathing room.

3) Hymn To Tourach is a great card, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it fits my build very well. With 12 Black Sources, it isn't a reliable turn2 play, and I prefer Duress because
a) It gains me card quality, not just CA.
b) It allows me to see my opponents hand.
c) Because I see what is in my opponents hand, Cabal Therapy becomes alot stronger.

4)I think you are talking about Gator here. Gator is the best beater in this deck, he Tramples, is a 5/5 for 3 mana, great with Jitte, great with Ritual, and he is a huge threat to any opposing deck(unless mountain). He is also the best Mainboard answer my build has to CotV, just play my fatties and win.

The bottom line of Negator is who cares if he makes your bad matchups terrible ones. Sure he hates red, but so does everything else in this deck.

Ozymandias

06-25-2008, 01:42 AM

Anyone see the new card from Eventide? Spoiler Warning:
It's an instant for (B/W)(B/W)(B/W) that says remove target creature from the game. Now that's an answer.

mercenarybdu

06-25-2008, 04:24 AM

Anyone see the new card from Eventide? Spoiler Warning:
It's an instant for (B/W)(B/W)(B/W) that says remove target creature from the game. Now that's an answer.

Ya, I did and that card's name is "Unmake" which is a more expensive Swords to Plowshares that doesn't give the enemy the benefit of gaining life off of the creature.

Shtriga

06-25-2008, 05:45 AM

mercenarybdu

06-25-2008, 02:41 PM

OMG. that's a pretty sweet black removal spell

swords is still on another league, but that' pretty nice nonetheless

edit: getting less impressed with unmake by the minute lol. 3 mana is still quite a lot to keep untapped, where that mana would otherwise be pumping shade or casting stuff. it's going to see a lot of play in block standard and extended, but legacy has it's own stuff like StP, snuff out, etc

But you then have to keep in mind that more and more players are running a lot of cards to fight off cards that cost 2 or under and rarely pay attention to stuff 3 or more when it comes to payables.

Unmake is that answer for Black to kill off creatures that are of any color while vaporizing the creature in the process. The last great spot removal card that Black ever got was "Smother" and the last great removal card that Black got overall was "Damnation". So this tells the community that Wizards is paying a little more attention to the Legacy Community when it comes to playables.

But anyway, Unmake is going to boot Smother in some sectors as the top removal card.

Shtriga

06-25-2008, 07:00 PM

I'd still run snuff out over unmake in this deck. it's a good card but would need testing, as 3 mana might be a little steep. and it's downright unplayable in any deck other than sui black/ pikula

if splashing white, swords outclasses it, counterbalance or not

HammafistRoob

06-26-2008, 02:32 AM

If splashing white, swords outclasses it, counterbalance or not

Holy shitt!!! It took how long for people to realize this?

Legacy was turning into "Itcosts3manasoitdodgesCounterbalanceDOTformat":eek:

Clark Kant

06-26-2008, 10:21 AM

Screw the Counterbalance. It's the lifegain aspect that sucked about StPing a Dreadnought or even a Goyf.

But StP and Snuff Out are still better regardless.

Arsenal

06-27-2008, 09:41 AM

Needle Specter. I don't think that he has enough to push something out and make room, but perhaps it should be looked at closer? The only way I can see Needle Specter being devestating to your opponent is if it's Jitte'd. Thoughts?

Jaiminho

06-27-2008, 07:23 PM

As time passes, I'm more convinced that Roob's list is much better than the usual ones. Mishra's Factories are all nice and shiny, but I simply can't get rid of Nantuko Shade. Maybe it's a card of past times, but what the hell.

I still need to play with that list, though.

HammafistRoob

06-28-2008, 03:05 AM

Damnosus

07-02-2008, 07:19 AM

So yea, wound up playing in my first ever legacy tournament last night (only a local one with something around 21 players), and I had a pretty good time. I used the following list:

4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Stromgald Crusader
4x Sarcomancy
4x Dark Ritual
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Smother
3x Diabolic Edict
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
18 Swamps

Sideboard:
3x Dystopia
4x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
1x Planar Void
1x Duress

Not the greatest list as I am missing a few cards. I still need another thoughtseize (so I will have 4 of those and 2 duresses), plus I need a 3rd needle. I totally forgot that I hadn't switched out the SoFI for a third jitte, that being said it wasn't a total waste (though close).

The first round I played against a painter's servant variant: I won game one, lost game two to mana screw, and won game three. All three games were close (meaning he usually had at least one piece on the board), but usually my discard was too much (especially during a game in which I double hymn'ed grabbing a much needed land).

Round two pissed me off to no end. I played against the most random and janky re-animator list on the planet: mono black with random stuff like a lone grindstone in it. First game I lost because he managed to get his single Lion's Eye Diamond and a Balthor into play with a hand full of big creatures :frown:. Game two a thoughtseize showed that he again had his single LED in his opening hand. I lasted longer this game, but was forced to plop out two Bobs as I hit a land glut. That plus that hybrid 5/3 for r/b r/b r/b wound up killing me. I am really annoyed that I lost to that horrid pile, and even more annoyed that he wound up winning the tournament (I am pretty sure it was just lucky matchups for him/possibly him cheating-things just seemed kinda sketchy with his luck). Oh and question: when is the target for animate dead declared? I thought that I could extirpate the target in response, but people were like "Nooo blah blah." I just wanted to get a ruling on that. Damn stupid round...

Round three was against a pretty crappy affinity deck that beat me first game because I got land screwed. I proceeded to beat the snot out of the annoying kid the next two games though.

Round four was against mono red goblins. Game one the guy mull'ed to five and just couldn't recover (felt kinda bad). Game two however he got off to a good start, but just couldn't keep it coming. I wound up slowly trading and offing his creatures until I was able to plop down an SoFI (only game in which it was helpful :laugh: ) on a Hyppie and win.

I wound up going 3-1 for the tournament coming in as one of the 6 people tied for second (the re-animator guy swept :mad: ), and I technically placed 4th which I believe is pretty good considering this is my first one of these. I got to use the 2 packs of cards as store credit in order to buy stuff for a completely different game (I bet you all can guess what spray paint and glue are used for :tongue: ), plus I was able to buy a blinkmoth nexus for my sister's fledgling affinity deck.

If anyone has any advice for my deck I would definitely take it (I have in the past and it has always been very helpful-this site is great). I must say I would love to turn it into Eva Green as I miss having some fatties/being able to take care of enchantments/artifacts, but the cards are just so expensive.

But yea, thanks for reading!

nitewolf9

07-02-2008, 11:01 AM

Oh and question: when is the target for animate dead declared? I thought that I could extirpate the target in response, but people were like "Nooo blah blah." I just wanted to get a ruling on that.

Announce targets, pay costs...you can most certainly extirpate in response. This is similar to why you can waste your own wasteland or seal your own seal of primordium. Announcing targets happens before the spell goes on the stack.

I must say I would love to turn it into Eva Green as I miss having some fatties/being able to take care of enchantments/artifacts, but the cards are just so expensive.

DO IT! I'm a bit biased, but the deck is a lot of fun :smile:. Sell a kidney or something, you only need one.

overseer1234

07-02-2008, 11:15 AM

Nice report an congrats on your finish.
I'm also going to a tournament, and I'll probably be playing this list:

Adam Black/Black Death (Sui-Black in an Eva-Green shell):
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tombstalker
4x Ashenmoor Gouger
4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
9x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate
3x Smother

I'm expecting a loam heavy metagame, and probably some fast storm combo deck, ichorid en MUC, so this deck does seem like a good call, but I'm not sure about the Engineerd Plague slot.

Though There were few goblin decks last time I was there (Though they were sitting at the higher table's), it's also a answer against ETW tokens.

My other option is to play more removal or discard in that slot (Cruel edict, cabal therapy,...)

I hope someone can give me some good advice.

Greetzzz,
Robin.

nitewolf9

07-02-2008, 11:51 AM

If you are expecting loam, ichorid, and storm combo (ie fetchland tendrills), leyline of the void is MUCH better than extirpate. I would suggest running that instead.

Also, dystopia seems like a stronger card than smother in that board slot.

Trancerogue

07-07-2008, 04:42 PM

Hey everyone good thread going so far, however I feel that some thoughts have been neglected and have not been answered and/or tested. Here is a deck list I have been having alot of fun playing with. It seems very solid in testing with the change in the meta. Painters is on the rise beacuse it a neat combo like Flash was. Thresh is still a solid choice to play in any meta. Dreadnought and landstill are coming up in popularity too.

Lands
16 [TSP] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland

Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
4 [10E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade

Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 [TE] Sarcomancy
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Ok at first glance you see the best black creatures combined with the best black discard. There are 2 main routes to piloting this deck. Drop Annoying Sarcomancy and Bitterblossoms and ride on the back of Negator, while sacing useless Sarcomany and tokens from Blossom. Combined Jitte with trample or flying and you have a solid life gain or removal. (sometimes even an awesome Hatred like effect with Negator and Jitte:laugh: )
Jitte also lessens the Suicidal tendency of this deck and provides an out to the late game. (Read all three abilities)

The second route is the "normal" Suicide black plan of attack in Hypie, shade and Confidant backed by discard and pure tempo. In testing so far I've found that you can just out senergy most decks with some explosive starts. Examples:
T1 Sawmp->Dark Ritual->Negator/Hypie.
or T1 Ritual->Thoughtseize-> Hymn
ETC...

I still have alot of testing to acomplish, but I feel this is a good starting path to get this thread back on topic.

Cheers,
Joe

Galroth

07-08-2008, 09:52 PM

Trancerogue - I like your list a lot. In particular I like how your creature shell makes use of the numerous permanents to maintain Negator on the board. Sarcomancy and Bitterblossom allow for this. In addition, running some equipment to ensure these cards are effective in the mid-late game is also a sweet choice in my opinion.

My critiques: Personally I don't think 8x Discard spells is enough to ensure a solid game against Combo and Control. It does allow for a good game, but Sui-Black should absolutely trounce Combo and Control decks. I'd advocate atleast 10 Discard effects, (Normally Duress is probably your best choice, but in your deck Cabal Therapy might work out. It's hot with bitterblossom, sarcomancy, negator and confidant.) To allow for this space what should be cut?

Your weak cards imo:

1x Shade - Running 3 will be fine here. You've got a alot of early game power and shade is acting more as a finisher.

1x Jitte - Two in your opening hand is useless. Again you'll want to see this card mid-late game to make your smaller creatures more effective. A turn 2 play of Jitte off a ritual is sweet, but you've only got Sarcomany as a turn 1 drop, which makes this play way to dependent on an exact combination of cards. If you were running 4x Carnophage then you might push for 4x Jitte to try to up the probability of this broken play. But then you'd have to rework the entire deck and I like where you're going as is.

1x Bitterblossom - I'm on the edge about this. Bitterblossom in multiples has never worked out for me. A single occurence of this effect usually gets me what I want, having multiples doesn't really add much... kinda a diminishing returns principle. Plus Bitterblossom has to ramp up to become good. I'd cut other stuff first.

Last critique: why are you running Wasteland? If you're not pairing it with sinkhole it loses alot of its value. Both in conjunction are way more effective at disrupting shakey mana-bases. Running only one is pretty much a play designed just to boost your tempo. How many times is your deck relying on tempo to win? What I'd do? Cut the 4x Wastelands and replace it with either 2x or 3x swamps. I think you'll find your manabase is actually more consistent. This also opens up a slot or two for some other goodness. Personally I'd like to see about 3x Snuff Out fit into your deck. Jitte is the only removal you're running. It's good, but it has to be equipped and doesn't help out in the first couple of turns of the game. This is where Snuff Out shines. Alternately you could try just over-running your opponent if you think pushing for more board control is not the direction to pursue. Or you could just cut the Wastelands, drop to 2x Swamp, and add 2x Duress. That's a really simple change trading out disruption for disruption. I think you'll find the discard effects are more important than the land destruction effects too.

I hope that helps. Let me knw your thoughts if you strongly disagree anywhere. Then I'll flame you :)

Galroth

07-09-2008, 10:13 PM

Lessons from HammafistRoob:

Run ALOT of removal.

I was wondering how Hammafist was winning tournaments, especially when his deck ran only 13 creatures: Confidant, Specter, Negator and a lone Tombstalker (+4 Factories). And 7 dedicated removal spells and 2 Jittes. That seemed overboard to me, but somewhat unique.

I tried it out. His build doesn't play the traditional role of sui-black which is a highly aggressive tempo driven beat-down deck. It can play that role when fueling out a first turn Specter or Negator; but more commonly the build plays a much more controlling game (yeah... who would have guessed).

It was impressive, but I wanteda bit more consistency. The light threat density composed of very tempermental cards has me shakey. I moved out Negator for Dusk Urchin. Urchin + Confidant has allowed some impressive resilience by keeping a steady influx of new cards. Urchin is still large enough to be a good beater, and basically replaces himself when it's all over. Next I subbed in Shriekmaw instead of Smother. This was another boost which sustains the large removal package while acting as a threat if needed.

--
Last thought:

I'm still not sold on sweet Extirpate tech. It can be cool; but how many times would another card be better? Personally I replaced Extirpate with Shade. Shade is solid and I'm sad to see a Sui-build without Shade.

Trancerogue

07-09-2008, 10:25 PM

Galroth - You hit the nail right on the head with certain card choices and ideas that I just did not include. I felt that I was on to something that could bloom over time with someone or a compliation of others help.

First: The discard imo was the best that black decks normally run, well since hymn was ever legal and thoughtseize since, well its broken. I chose those cards to illustrate a point in where I was planning to take the deck. They are the best, but while I thought more on this style of play, Cabal Therapy is the Real Deal. With tokens from bitter blossom, Negator and Confidant; I should be able to find ways to make use of Therapy over any other discard spell.

Shade yes he does seem to be a win more card and does bring the deck to the late game, however, I find as much with Negator he is a card that says you must answer me within so many turns or You will lose the game. I find that having him outweights the negative effects that can be caused. Plus most people freak out and nuke him as soon as they can and I've always enjoyed playing another one later on. Im sure he could go either way in this deck and further testing would work. Three might be the magic number after all.

Jitte is a puzzling question and Im not sure what to really think when I play less than four in my deck. (Look at GP Columbus) It is a really powerful effect and has the ability to change games around. I think that I will move 1 out of the main deck and add one therapy to start the changes you suggested becuase I too have drawn them after having an active Jitte.

Deck -1 Jitte + 1 Cabal Therapy

Bitterblossom, such a wonderful card..... Over time!!! LoL You are correct and 3 is the sweet spot and I will test as such. No arguments on the assumtion that it is an over kill when drawn in multiples. My only complaint is everyone wants to kill it! :) But we shall test it out and see how the deck performs.

Deck -1 Bitterblossom + 1 Cabal Therapy

Wasteland the card that is the meta game!!! LoL so true that statment is. You either play it or you run basics. I have been playing Suicide black since the Rath cycle. The deck has always run Wasteland in every list. It has such a powerfull effect, I feel you would short the deck of the raw power of Turn 1 swamp dark ritual Negator, turn 2 waste your nonbasic and duress, therapy and now thoughtseize your hand GG. LOL You understand my point at least and why I'm fighting for wasteland in the deck. It not only has that effect comdined with discard but it provides black the ability to get around troubling lands and other nonsense. I feel in this meta game you either run wasteland or you run ways around it. Do you agree?

Creature Removal my other headache:

You suggested Snuff out and it has been amazing in Eva Green, but that deck does not run any suicide effects besides Fetch Lands. I have to admit it has been amazing to play that card in many match ups and won by dropping quick beats that are backed up by timely spot removal. However, in this deck it would hurt because I would put myself at such low life through the match, confidant and bitterblossom, I feel that I would lose games to my own Suicidal Tendency and thats not right! LoL Ideas I have been brainstorming are, Slaughter Pact, Smother and Contagion. Very good at what they do. Jitte + Contagion seems to be made for each other, but Im not sure yet. I have no other sugguestions at this time, other then I would like the see them work in the deck over Snuff Out because of the life loss not the card iteself. Aside, Maybe confidant needs to go?! Na, that would not make me feel Suicidal anymore:( No, really Confidant needs to get the axe?! Let me hear what others think about him in the deck.

Another idea, How about Unmask in the deck and/or sideboard? It seems like it was used at GP Columbus with great success. However, I feel it was used only to speed out a quick discard to stop Flash; the deck that sucked the fun out of Legacy!!!!!!!! Anyways just an idea I was thinking about adding somewhere to help with speed issues to stop certain problems and matches up. (Combo mainly and those pesky Survival decks) I would like to hear any feed back on that subject.

Deck changes:
-1 Jitte
-1 Bitterblossom
+2 Cabal Therapy (This number may go up im not sure yet!)

Anyways, thank you for taking the time to check out the deck and I hope i hear back from you. Ohhh please, please, please..... Don't Flame me :) LoL

Cheers,
Joe

Galroth

07-10-2008, 11:07 PM

Alright, alright... no flames. Though I should severely reprimand you for not agreeing with EVERY point I made. I am disappointed. *shakes head*

Unmask seemed like the easiest topic. Your evaluation of it is, I think, exactly what the legacy community has come to tacitly agree on. Unmask is good to beat insanely fast and resilient combo decks like flash, no other combo deck is quite as scary though. And back in the day when Hatred and shadow creatures were prominent, it was used to help push through turn 2 and turn 3 kills. Hatred is too much of a risk now and sui-black is no longer a combo deck but some weird variant of aggro-control. Unmask is out and probably not even worthy of sideboard unless you're seeing some very very heaving combo influence. Then I'd probably just maindeck more therapies anyways.

I can't really fault you on not cutting a Shade either. I think Bitterblossom and Jitte are probably the more solid cuts. Shade finds its way into every suicide build for a reason. What is there not to like about Shade?

I still recommend testing out Snuff Out. Start with it as a 3x main-decked. It's better in your opening hand than when drawn later on, as the alternate cost leads to some substantial tempo gains. I understand the concern over life loss. My current build of sui-black doesn't run bitterblossom or sarcomancy, so Snuff Out could likely be over the top. In retrospect you're probably right about leaving it out, but it's still worth a bit of testing to ascertain. Y'never know, you might end up satisfied with an alternate like Smother instead.

Finally: Wasteland...

I suppose it's almost like the 2 different camps on Dark Confidant. Does land destructino belong? Or doesn't it? There really isn't an easy solution. I still think Wasteland is a little weak. It can pull of some amazing early tempo, especially on a turn 2 play once you've accelerated out a a negator or hyppie on the back of a ritual. These plays seem to few to solely justify its inclusion. In my opinion, cracking a wasteland in the later turns to bury a non-basic doesn't really get you much as the opponents manabase is already stabilized. With only wasteland and without sinkhole I think it's really hard to consider it a good control element against weak mana-bases. Just seems to little to have much adverse effect against the opponent. On the other hand what price are you paying by running it? Well you lose 1-2 slots that could be devoted to business spells rather than land. But Wasteland is almost a business spell in itself. And you open yourself up to non-basic hate... which is a negligible concern at best. There is probably a very slight drop in consistency by lessening chances of dual swamps on your second turn. Quite honestly I think the differences are so miniscule that a conversation debating it probably isn't worth it 'til the deck is near as optimized as a Threshold or Goblins list. The inclusion of Dark Confidant is a much better topic for large scale changes to the structure of an entire suicide deck.

Alright - dinner time.

HammafistRoob

07-11-2008, 01:51 AM

You CANNOT remove Dark Confidant, why would you even think about it?

xsockmonkeyx

07-11-2008, 03:12 AM

You CANNOT remove Dark Confidant, why would you even think about it?

Oh please. There are plenty of Sui Black decks without Confidant and they are perfectly justified with its exclusion. Sometimes this place gives me a headache from the constant facepalming.

Galroth

07-11-2008, 01:05 PM

Sockmonkey is right. (Atleast I say he's right, so that makes him right.) Confidant doesn't belong in every suicide deck. Look at the standard shells of Eva Green and Red Death (i.e. Suicide splash green and splash red). Even prior to Eva Green and Red Death, when Anwar was developing the list on the opening page, Suicide didn't run Confidant when it became available.

I think the principle that dictates whether or not to run confidant is the balance between tempo/aggro and control. The aforementioned decks wanted pure tempo, and a win by turn 5 or 6. Confidant isn't as good for meeting this end as other creatures. However, I think that the pilots of more modern builds of suicide black have realized that we can't outclass the tempo of splashes like Eva Green or Red Death. If tempo is truly what is desired then mono-b suicide is just sub par in comparison. So I think most of the modern builds are beginning to rely on more control elements and finding some modicum of success - especially given that our current meta is not dominated by weenie aggro that can overwhelm black based control. Confidant fits perfectly into these more controlling builds (I would argue Dusk Urchin could also find a home). I'd also speculate this is why HammafistRoob's build, with 7x dedicated spot removal spells and 13x creatures, is winning tournies. Suicide builds seldom are directed towards going hyper-aggro. Mono-b can't compete in that role, so it takes a different tact. It's weird aggro-control deck in a developing meta.

That's my 3 cents. Yes, "I" get three. :P

Clark Kant

07-11-2008, 02:11 PM

It's very risky to play Confidant in a deck with 3-4 Tombstalker.

I personally prefer running 4 Tombstalker and 0 Confidant. But then again, my build runs fetchlands so it's easy to get 5-6 cards into the yard.

HammafistRoob

07-11-2008, 04:30 PM

I think that the pilots of more modern builds of suicide black have realized that we can't outclass the tempo of splashes like Eva Green or Red Death. If tempo is truly what is desired then mono-b suicide is just sub par in comparison. So I think most of the modern builds are beginning to rely on more control elements and finding some modicum of success - especially given that our current meta is not dominated by weenie aggro that can overwhelm black based control. Confidant fits perfectly into these more controlling builds (I would argue Dusk Urchin could also find a home). I'd also speculate this is why HammafistRoob's build, with 7x dedicated spot removal spells and 13x creatures, is winning tournies. Suicide builds seldom are directed towards going hyper-aggro. Mono-b can't compete in that role, so it takes a different tact. It's weird aggro-control deck in a developing meta.
Thanks for the recognition.:cool:

But you are overlooking one major thing my build has that most don't, a way to fight decks that rely on Standstill.
1) Wastelands
2) Factories
3) MB Extirpates

The Wastelands and factories help out alot against Landstill, the Extirpates help against Dreadstill(and gy reliant decks). My deck seriously LOVES Standstill, I might splash blue for it.:wink:

It's very risky to play Confidant in a deck with 3-4 Tombstalker.

I personally prefer running 4 Tombstalker and 0 Confidant. But then again, my build runs fetchlands so it's easy to get 5-6 cards into the yard.
That's all fine and dandy, but I think you would be better off splash Green so you can also run Tarmogoyf. My build runs only 3(!) fetch, Cabal Therapy, and Ghastly Demise. It's a little more graveyard reliant than most builds which is why I only run 1 Tombstalker.

Damnosus

07-11-2008, 05:44 PM

HammafistRoob

07-11-2008, 06:07 PM

Hammerfist: Your build sure sounds interesting. Would you mind linking the page that it is on (or just telling the number)? Or if it isn't on here would you mind sharing it with someone who has gone through this huge thread but still managed to miss it?
Here-
Sui Black- by Rob Rogers

Main Deck-60

//Lands-20
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
9 Swamp

//Creatures-13
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
1 Tombstalker

//Instants-14
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Extirpate

//Sorceries-11
4 Thoguthseize
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

//Artifacts-2
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard-15
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Darkblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Powder Keg

Galroth

07-13-2008, 01:54 AM

@ Hammafist - I wouldn't quite say I overlooked that part of your build. Quite honestly, I think the extra hate against Standstill is inconsequential. Partially, I don't see if heavily played in my meta; but more importantly, I've never had issue beating any Standstill based decks without the extra dedicated hate. My experience is that suicide black is built to destroy these types of decks already. Discard + card advantage creatures (confidant, hyppie, urchin) + threats that you can easily ride singletons of to a win (shade & negator) = an ass whooping no matter how you look at it. If I had to give a quick estimate I don't think Standstill has ever done much better than 33 to 66 against my various builds. I'm kinda surprised you pointed out that it was one of the strengths of your build. Any particular reason why. I can obviously see how much more your build would dominate; but I think my personal preferences would lean towards helping out my other weaker matches.

Clark Kant

07-13-2008, 02:51 PM

Only 12 colored mana sources! You must find yourself mulliganing a lot. And I don't how well you can support Hippies mana requirement with that few mana sources. On top of that, I'm also not sure that the advantage of running Factories makes up for giving up bombs like Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole (a huge tempo boost). If your meta does have that much landstill though, I guess it's worth trying.

I do like the increased removal package. It's especially useful with Negator.

I personally prefer running Ashenmoor Gouger over Negator. It's still castable with Ritual and easily castable in my build as it doesn't run as much colorless man. The clock is similar but the massive vulnerability that Negator has to potential blockers and especially burn is problematic.

Are you sure Extripate is good enough to be worth maindecking? It seems stronger in slower decks where the odds of your opponent drawing the same card multiple times is higher.

Given the large amount of removal I'm assuming your meta has a lot of aggro. Given the removal and the large amount of discard, I highly highly recommend playing a few Reanimate in place of 2 Extripate.

Stealing your opponents Goyf after you discarded it with Thoughtseize or killed it with Smother is a very strong play. At worst, you can use it to reanimate the Hippie or Confidant after your opponent inevitably kills it.

Also, I'm wondering but why play a 1 of Tombstalker, you have no tutoring. On the rare occasion that you draw it off of Confidant, you will almost certainly lose the game by losing half your life in one swoop.

xsockmonkeyx

07-13-2008, 03:11 PM

I noticed the 12 black lands too. 14 is pretty much the bare minimum for this deck. Also, Hammafist's list is the version, if any, that would run 1x Urborg. Id at least consider it.

I agree with everything Clark just said.

Clark Kant

07-13-2008, 03:21 PM

Thank you xsock. I definately agree on the Urborg as well. It's a very solid card.

I don't play monoblack sui. I splash. But if I were to play monoblack, I would likely something like this.

3 Tombstalker (Could easily support 4 if you're willing to run some fetchlands)
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator/Ashenmoor Gouger

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole/Smother (Depending on if you face a lot of aggro).
4 Snuff Out
2 Reanimate
2 Umezawa's Jitte/Duress (Depending on if you face a lot of aggro).

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

HammafistRoob

07-13-2008, 04:46 PM

The only card in my list that needs 2 black mana is Hyppie. I've never had too many problems with my manabase, I don't think that you can argue with results.

Jaiminho

07-13-2008, 07:11 PM

Urborg doesn't make much of a difference, because you can't rely on it as a singleton to improve your odds of not getting mana screwed. You will be replacing a Swamp for that, so only hands that have BB costed spell + Urborg + Colorless lands would actually be better than BB + Swamp + Colorless lands.

Anyway, I've raised land count to 21 and lowered Factory count to 3. Coincidently, that's the number xsockmonkeyx just said.

I'm not missing Nantuko Shade much, but I am missing Hymn to Tourach in this deck. I am not taking Factories out, though. Since my 14 B change to the mana base is somewhat recent, it might work along with Hymns... testing must be held.

Oh yeah, Ashenmoor Gouger sucks. You may not be able to cast even if you run the 16/4 mana base.

Galroth

07-13-2008, 09:02 PM

Brainstorming...

As I fell asleep last night I came up with the following list. (Some people count sheep, I build decks - it's soothing.)

Critters (19)
4x Sarcomancy
4x Carnophage
4x Stromgald Crusader
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Graveborn Muse
Discard (11)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy
Equipment (5)
3x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
Mana (25)
4x Dark Ritual
2x Lake of the Dead
19x Swamp

--
This build goes back to a shell reminiscent of Bill's Starks suicide black build in GP Flash. It includes the 1cc zombies to power out an early start, along with early pinpoint discard to disrupt the opponent. Then makes use of Equipment to ensure that your 2/2's don't become useless when larger critters are brought on board. The mid/late game plan relies on pumpable critters which are able to over-run just about anything we see in legacy. The pumpable critters are still solid early drops though.

Dark Ritual and Lake of the Dead allow for some blistering early equips, and pumping shenanigans which will end games very quickly.

The inspiration for posting this was the inclusion of Graveborn Muse. This card turns all of your early drops into an awesome drawing engine which very few decks could attempt keeping up with. 4cc, 3/3, draw 2 to 3 extra cards every turn. That's hard to say no.

What I like about this build: it's dynamic and can steal games through some very strong plays (like Jitte equip turn 2 off a ritual). At the same time it can have a good early game, mid game, and late game. I really like how equipment and muse make use of the 2/2 zombies which lead from solid early plays to solid mid-game plays. What I don't like about it: alot of the power comes from interaction between the cards. Very few of the cards are solid in and of themselves. Sarcomany is no Hyppie. This is part of the reason Strongald Crusader and Nantuko Shade were chosen over cards like Negator.

Notable Exclusions:

Dark Confidant - With so much life loss I don't think I could handle much more. I'm tempted to try it out anyways. Between confidant and muse that kind of card draw is simply godly. But what good is that kind of card draw if you can't make use of it right away. It seems like alot of set-up is needed for broken plays. Nantuko Shade + Lake of the Dead, or Carnophage + Sword of Fire and Ice. You can't just plop down a threat like Tombstalker and run with it. The lack of Confidant is also why my Discard effects are at 11. Even this I consider a bit weak. Normally I prefer 10 Discard effects + Hyppie + Confidant. This is actually less that what I'm comfortable with. And beyond the equipment I still don't have room for removal. In order to make the equipment useful I do need targets to equip to. I'd prefer 20 creatures, but cuts had to be made. I'd be fine with a 3/3 split of Crusader and Shade. But there wasn't another critter that screamed "play me" like Confidant did. There was just too much life loss to feel good about it.

--
I figured it was a fresh enough to stimulate some thoughts. Personally I think it's crap right now in contrast to my current build. But then again, I'm f**king fanatic about my current sui build (it does kick ass). However, I thought I'd post it for a little innovation and development.

Regards.

HammafistRoob

07-13-2008, 10:15 PM

I think we should get some solid discussion going about Bitterblossom. The card is quite broken, especially with Equipment. Some questions for you folks/

1)What is the right number to run? 0,1,2,3, or 4?
2)What is the best number of equipment to run along side it?
3)What should it come in over?

Clark Kant

07-14-2008, 12:23 AM

14 is considered the bare minimum number of colored sources to ensure one colored source in your opening hand.

Fairie Stompy knows this. Dragon Stompy knows this. Even 10 land stompy knows this (the last 4 lands are Land Grants). I see no justification for going down to 12 swamp, and having played all three decks mentioned above, I am fairly sure that not even 14 swamp is enough to support cards like Hymn and Hippie with BB in their casting cost.

This is the same reason that Fairie Stompy always opted to play Binding Grasp over Control Magic in the sideboard. Dragon Stompy is a different story as it runs 4 Blood Moon, 4 Magus of the Moon, 4 Seething Song AND 4 Simic Spirit Guide and yet still is prone to getting color screwed on occasion.

My build runs 17 black sources (8 are fetchland since I splash) and 4 wasteland. That's why I can support 4 Hippie, 4 Hymn, 4 Tombstalker, 3 Shade, and 3 Ashenmoor Gouger etc.

Yes, I think Bitterblossom has definate potential in the deck.

To answer the questions about Bitterblossom posed.

1.) 3-4 based on how many threats you run sounds optimal.
2.) Jitte. Is this really up for debate. It's cheap, broken, and even provides life gain in a pinch.
3.) Dark Confidant. The deck also runs Thoughtsiege and simply can't support that much lifeloss. On the plus side, by cutting Confidant, the deck can now easily support 3-4 Tombstalker (in place of Negator) assuming you're willing to up the colored mana count.

Jaiminho

07-14-2008, 01:55 AM

- Bitterblossom is slow. Its creatures show up on turn 2 with ritual, attacking for 1 on turn 3. Even Hippie, the most underrated and weak (on P/T) card in the deck, does better than this.
- You can't get rid of it once you are going down unless you run Negator. I don't know how much of an argument this is, but I'm listing it anyway.
- It's not a tempo hit on the opponent. It's a tempo hit on yourself.
- Only an actual attacking force when equipped, since it can't match any decent creature's clock.
- If you keep it as a blocker, you are not pushing down your opponent's life totals, but pushing yours down. Also, it can't chump block permanently more than one creature. It blocks only in the early game, in case it comes online soon enough.

Seriously, I think it sucks for this deck. Maybe only in control decks.

2)What is the best number of equipment to run along side it?

2.) Jitte. Is this really up for debate. It's cheap, broken, and even provides life gain in a pinch.

Reading is tech.

Clark Kant

07-14-2008, 02:58 AM

ooohh... burn. :rolleyes:

The number depends on how many creatures you're playing in the deck. I honestly don't think any Jitte are needed as they tend to be rather slow and I wouldn't run more than 2.

Galroth

07-14-2008, 04:53 PM

Bitterblossom

1)What is the right number to run? 0,1,2,3, or 4?

If you're going to run Bitterblossom, then three is the right number. Tempo oriented suicide decks should NOT run Bitterblossom though. More controlling variants are alright. I think optimally I'd prefer to see Bitterblossom only in decks that also pack Sarcomancy and Negator actually. You can see Trancerogue's decklist a page back. That's pretty optimal use of Bitterblossom imo.

2)What is the best number of equipment to run along side it?

Jitte is the obvious choice for equipment. Best number is either 2 or 3. It depends on the rest of your build. I lean towards three if you're running both Bitterblossom and Sarcomany. If you have more fat, like lots of Negator, Shade, Hyppie - then two is probably the better choice.

3)What should it come in over?

Do NOT replace another creature with this card. However, Bitterblossom is a decent replacement for removal spells. It gives you a card that is never dead (threats are good) - and at worst it offers a permanent blocker to an opposing fattie at 1 life per turn. Neither can one afford to cut discard in favor of Bitterblossom, you weakend your combo matches and control matches too quickly. Cabal Therapy though is awesome in conjunction with Bitterblossom and can probably replace Duress.

Overall - I am not a personal fan of Bitterblossom. However I'd recommend anyone interested take a look at Trancerogue's list.

--
HammafistRoob

Regarding your land count. I know you've had some personal experience and success with the list, but I'd also highly recommend more than 12 black sources. Statistically it shouldn't be anywhere close to the consistency of 14. I think in the long run it will prove better. I do like the list with mesmeric fiend included.

HammafistRoob

07-14-2008, 05:54 PM

Cons :
-It's kinda slow
- You can't get rid of it once you are going down unless you run Negator. I don't know how much of an argument this is, but I'm listing it anyway.
- It's not a tempo hit on the opponent. It's a tempo hit on yourself.
- Only an actual attacking force when equipped, since it can't match any decent creature's clock.
- If you keep it as a blocker, you are not pushing down your opponent's life totals, but pushing yours down. Also, it can't chump block permanently more than one creature. It blocks only in the early game, in case it comes online soon enough.
- Will probably lower the number of removal/disruption.
- Gets hit hard by E.E, Deed, sweepers.

Pros:
- Beats control by itself.
- Makes lots of tokens.
- Absolutley broken with Equipment.
- Rediculous with Cabal Therapy.

I'm starting to lean towards the non-inclusion side of the argument. It doesn't really do shit by itself except kill you, I mean with Fetches, bobs, and Thoughtseizes, we already take a hefty amount of damage.

Ch@os

07-15-2008, 10:29 AM

Xurcks

07-15-2008, 03:03 PM

Curby

07-16-2008, 02:05 AM

In your build , i would exchange the stromgald crusaders for Stilmoon Cavaliers. How more awesome can a creature be than a flying Stillmoon Cavalier wielding a SOFaI ? That's über power.

Also , it seems to me that stalker hag is nigh unblockable in the current meta.Could it be an option for a good equipment carrier that goes straight to the dome?

These are a bit small for a deck that expects a 5/5 for 3. I thought Suicide black isn't afraid of swinging wildly into the red zone? If getting through at any cost is important, why not just use Inkfathom Infiltrator? It is absolutely unblockable (not just "nigh unblockable,") and it costs less.

3duece

07-16-2008, 01:52 PM

What do you guys think of a build more focussed on all-out aggression, basically removing land destruction in favor of more creatures and acceleration?
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Dark Confident
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tombstalker

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
4 Snuff Out
4 Diabolic Edict

4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
12 Swamp

The chrome moxes replace 4 swamps, speed up the tempo and feed tombstalker. 8 discard/8 spot removal seems like plenty to let the big guys plow through. Some other cards I've been considering are cursed scroll, skittering skirge and city of traitors.
I almost like skirge more than anurid even though you'll have to let him go pretty quick, but I like his evasion, kind of a black incinerate.
I ran city of traitors in Hatred years ago and it worked wonders, but I'm not sure how it would fair here.
Finally, maybe -2 Edict for +2 Scroll would add a little late game punch, but honestly all the lifeloss won't really allow you a lategame. Any thoughts or improvements?

Galroth

07-16-2008, 03:19 PM

What do I think of it? I think it's a little weak honestly. I played a list fairly similar for a long time. I do think it's better than the Bill Stark-ish builds like the one I posted above. But I do see alot of problems that I think can be easily remedied in your list. Most of them are just fine-tuning your deck, but they are relevant.

1) Chrome Mox is never a 1 for 1 replacement of a swamp. Much less will you ever want to see multiples in your opening hand. If you do stick with 4 mox increase your land count by 1. My recommendation is drop to 3 mox and increase your land count by 2. My personal build runs 3 mox 4 ritual and I run 17 swamp and no Tombstalker.

2) Tombstalker is awesome. But multiples in your opening hand are no good. You're not running fetches, which means you're not going to play Tombstalker earlier than turn 4 without a ritual. All likelihood stalker is a turn 5 play. Cut down to 3, which also has the advantage of hurting yourself less off a Confidant draw.

3) Wretched Anurid sux! Well, that's my opinion atleast. I'd grab a more resilient creature that isn't aimed strictly at damaging your opponent. If damage is your aim, then just go with flesh reaver. Skittering Skirge is interesting, but you're pretty creature heavy as is. I do love Skirge though. Dusk Urchin is my creature of choice for this slot. However, in your build I'd personally go with a couple of Cursed Scrolls for some reach first. Scroll acts as a threat so replacing a creature with scroll instead of edicts with scrolls should be... not bad.

4) You're running 8x Discard effects. Some people think that's okay; I think it's horrendous. I never drop below 10. I suppose this does depend on your meta. I don't think 8 effects is enough to consistently win against control and combo without some good draws. Of course, if you're only seeing aggro in your meta, then 8 is fine... but your 4x duress should then be 4x thoughtseize. I can understand if price is a concern, but thoughtseize is the strictly superior card in legacy.

5) I might as well offer my opinion on your removal package. In my opinion diabolic edict is inferior to to snuff out. Against aggro you'll want to be able to choose which creature your killing. There are actually very few relevant creatures which you'll need edict for. The most notable is a threshed mongoose. However, your creatures can usually take care of a threshed goose. What you need to be able to catch with your removal is the Tarmogoy that your creatures cannot block or run over.

Hatred was too cool. Sometimes I think I could just sneak it in because nobody expects it anymore. Maybe just 1x copy for fun ;)

Xurcks

07-16-2008, 03:22 PM

@3duece:

I think dark ritual and chrome mox would turn out together to be too many card disadvantage. Also , Chrome Mox doesn't do much to feed tombstalker , removing card from hand and being a permanent anyway , and Wretched Anurid is just underwhelming IMO.
4 Confidant and 4 Tombstalker may be too risky.
Maybe putting 4 more discard spells in the anurid slot would help.

City of traitors works great only on chalice\stompy style decks.
I tried Skirge and in very few occasions it was good enough.

I never tested scroll , but Tacosnape used Cursed Scroll in this list :

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Carnophage
4 Black Knight
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy/Smother/Yixlid Jailer
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void

3duece

07-16-2008, 05:15 PM

Okay. So this leads me to a possibly dumb question- why, with a badass discard package, does no one run hatred decks anymore? Are the creatures just too small? Something like-
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Phyrexian Negator

4 Duress
4 Unmask
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hatred
4 Dark Ritual

4 City of Traitors
16 Swamp

Is it because people are afraid of daze and FoW? That's what the discard is for. This deck used to win on turn four fairly consistently with a possible turn two kill. What happened to this deck?

Jaiminho

07-16-2008, 06:24 PM

Hatred sucks because it's cost will only not make you lose the game against Landstill if you manage to kill their factories. You lose to removal, you lose to counters, you lose because you need a Shadow or Flying dude for it to work.

Galroth

07-16-2008, 06:42 PM

Hatred isn't run for a number of reasons:

Swords to Plowshares
Force of Will
Daze
Lightning Bolt
... ... some of the most played cards in the format really screw Hatred

More important is probably the creatures which Legacy commonly sees. Back when Hatred was popular the black onslaught of critters were the most powerful undercosted threats available. Nowadays, suicide black loses the early damage war unless a creature is accelerated out. Sarcomanys and Carnophages don't cut it when compared to Mongeese and Goyfs. Suicide's good creatures need to be accelerated out via Dark Ritual (Negator, Hypnotic, Shade) in order to win the early damage war. If you're life is less than the opponents Hatred is obviously no good. And if you're using your acceleration to beat your opponent in the early damage race, you're not using it for Hatred on turn 3.

Hatred is also often considered a win more card. If you're ahead it ends the game quickly, but it is only needed if the game is likely to swing back into your opponents favor. Y'know, I think Hatred might be able to find a spot into some suicide black builds as a 2x. It forces your opponent to play around the card and can steal games that otherwise you shouldn't win. If nothing else, it's fun as as all hell to drop the card down. It feels like gambling!

Try it out I say and let me know how it goes.

Clark Kant

07-16-2008, 06:56 PM

It's not just FoW, Hatred has one more ledge to climb.

Hatred would see more play if it didn't cost 5 freaking mana.

The deck really has a tough time casting anything that costs more than 3 mana.

Kainan

07-17-2008, 05:07 PM

I was watching last pages lists and I don't see many Sinkholes maindeck. Don't you guys think this card is a must 4-ofm to gain some tempo advantage?

Galroth

07-18-2008, 01:02 AM

Regarding sinkhole - I think it is a must of if a tempo advantage is your goal. But I really don't think the blazing tempo of suicide is what the mono-black version builds will win with Red Death and Eva Green use sinkhole and wasteland for this tempo gain and are very successful with it. But they have better beaters and/or burn which adds to the tempo. Mono-black has alot of trouble consistently matching this kind of tempo.

We've got Negator, Shade, Hypnotic Specter... then what? Tombstalker? What else would go in a mono-black tempo version to match Red Death or Eva Green. I'm just brain storming at this point, but all the other good mono-black options seem geared towards more control (Dark Confidant, Dusk Urchin, Bitterblossom). Sarcomancy, Carnophage, and Stromgald Crusader are good pressure, but they're too slow to take real advantage of Sinkhole. Wretched Anurid and Flesh Reaver are possibilities; but there drawbacks are usually considered too much.

My personal preference - go for a controlling route instead. Your discard allows you the time to win against combo and provides enough disruption to control that both arch-types are of pretty low consequence. Lots of removal and large creatures that you can ride 1 or 2 of to the win makes for a decent match against aggro-control (not to mention 3cc is hot against counter-top). And aggro... well there seems to be less of that nowadays. But I never saw that much success tempo builds overwhelming aggro decks. I prefer heavy threat density and lots of removal. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Clark Kant

07-18-2008, 03:54 AM

You're right that a splash lets you abuse Sinkhole even better letting you run threats like Tarmogoyf or supplemental spells like Vindicate.

If you want to see my recommended Sui Black build, here you go... http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10287

But even in monoblack lists I think Sinkhole is extremely strong and fits in just fine.

Monoblack has plenty of threats that can take advantage of this tempo.

They are...
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade
Phyrexian Negator
Ashenmoor Gouger
Tombstalker (Extremely easy to support, esp if you play Wasteland and some fetchlands).

I think going the aggressive route by playing some combination of the above threats is ideal.

And doing so, I think Sinkhole fits in perfectly as do other tempo cards like Snuff Out and even Shreikmaw (terror+a threat).

Illissius

07-18-2008, 08:09 AM

Eva Green plays Tombstalker so I don't see why plain old Suicide Black couldn't. Basically, swap the Tarmogoyfs from Eva Green for Negators and you're good to go. You also get to play Dystopias in the side.

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tombstalker
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Other Cards
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
9 Swamp
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Dystopia
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Engineered Plague

I suggest the open slots could either be more removal to help Negator connect (Shriekmaw? Edict? Smother?), or more turn one plays (Duress?) because the deck currently has only eight. Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal could also help with that, but I'm sceptical of it being a very great idea.

Negator costs three to Tarmogoyf's two, which is not great for the curve, and which may or may not be a problem.

Clark Kant

07-18-2008, 08:43 AM

Eva Green plays Tombstalker so I don't see why plain old Suicide Black couldn't.

QFT. All the best lists absolutely should imo.

I don't know about just straight up replacing Goyf with Negator. Goyf has none of the massive vulnerabilities to burn or blockers that Negator has. Hell, Goyfs strongest attribute is that it easily outclasses all other potential early blockers.

But if it works in your meta, yes do run Negator. If it doesn't, run something else, like Ashenmoor Gouger perhaps.

As for the last 3 cards, in my experience, Reanimate is grossly underestimated in Sui Black.

You have a multitude of ways to get creatures into your opponents yard (Thoughtseize, Snuff Out, Hymn, Hippie, being chump blocked) etc. And even if you don't, many of your threats are threats that your opponent will absolutely kill asap. Reanimate gets you some pretty kickass threats for a mere 1 mana and whenever it does always proves to be a huge tempo boost.

I would play 2-3 Reanimate in a build such as what illiusus proposed.

Clark Kant

07-20-2008, 05:21 AM

As an experiment, I tried to build a mono black suicide deck, I really did.

But I couldn't justify playing suicide black without playing Tombstalker.

I couldn't justify playing Tombstalker without playing eight fetchlands.

And I couldn't justify playing eight fetchlands without splashing a color.

So that led me to the following build...

4 phyrexian negator/ashenmoor gouger
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
2 shriekmaw

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 vindicate
3 reanimate
2 snuff out

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 scrubland
4 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

board:
4 leyline of the void
4 engineered plague
4 pithing needle
3 umezawa's jitte

I like the way this build plays out a lot. But I want to see any suggestions or comments you have for the above build.

thefreakaccident

07-20-2008, 06:03 AM

The list looks solid... why run reanimate without smallpox?

There really doesn't seem to be any reason to run reanimate in the current decklist.

rleader

07-20-2008, 07:25 AM

The list looks solid... why run reanimate without smallpox?

You must have missed the Errata for Reanimate:

Reanimate, B, Sorcery:
Summon Tarmogoyf, lose two life

I'm not a fan of suicide black anymore, but being able to turn your discard and kill cards into a creature stronger than your manabase can support seems like a good deal.

Clark Kant

07-20-2008, 11:28 AM

ROFL. Well said. :)

I've been very pleased with Reanimate. If it weren't for that card, I would be playing Duress instead of Thoughtseize.

Even in the very unusual circumstance where your opponent is playing one of the two decks in legacy that doesn't run Tarmogoyf, reanimating your own Negator/Gouger, or Hippie is not a bad play.

Plus reanimating Shriekmaw that you just evoked to kill one threat, just to kill a second threat, is often a strong enough play to warrant losing 5 life for.

The main problem that I have with a list like this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=252203&postcount=1333) is the inevitable internal debate I have on which of the three threats is superior as that last four of.

Phyrexian Negator
- the beefiest option you could ever ask for
- works well with your removal
- opens you up to being pushed into some very horrid board states

vs.

Ashenmoor Gouger
- the mana cost can very occasionally be tough even playing just 4 non black sources
- slower than negator
- no risk involved at all

vs.

Nantuko Shade
- takes up critical mana needed to play spells to pump him
- rarely get all that big anyway
- turns extra dark rituals into giant growths

Any other fellow sui black players want to voice their opinion on that debate?

At the moment, I'm actually leaning towards Ashenmoor Gouger or perhaps a 2/2 split between Gouger and Shade, which isn't the answer I was expecting.

Knikola

07-31-2008, 12:59 AM

Hello, this is my first post. I've been thinking about testing this out:

3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother
3 Extirpate
1 Pox (or pithing needle)
3 Duress
4 Hymm to tourach
4 Thoughtseize

4 Ashenmoor Gouger
1 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Wasteland
12 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Some Guy that Sucks

SB
4 Leyline of the Void?
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Reanimate (?)
(I never put full thought into the sideboard)

It's much like Hammafist's. Only I'm an idiot that puts in a Pox just for style points.

Jaiminho

07-31-2008, 02:03 AM

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

+

4 Ashenmoor Gouger

=

Design Fail. For obvious reasons. A lone Urborg does nothing to this deck. Multiple Urborgs could make you lose land drops.

Also, Pox doesn't work well on a deck that needs its creatures to win the game as soon as possible based on tempo disruption.

Knikola

07-31-2008, 12:14 PM

Yes, good points. Looks like Negator will be my new friend.
I'll probably just put in another Duress or one Reanimate if it even matters. Thanks for the input my good man.

overseer1234

07-31-2008, 12:54 PM

I took this deck to a pretty big tournament (58 participants)
Here's my list:

Maindeck
3x Umezawa’s Jitte

4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tombstalker
4x Ashenmoor Gouger

4x Dark Ritual
4x Snuff Out

4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
9x Swamp
4x Wasteland

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate
3x Smother

Basically it's Eva Green but without tarmogoyf, so i play gouger in place of goyf, and jitte main deck in stead of the seal of primoridum. So I named the deck Black Death before my friends started calling it: Adam Black

(I started with the Red Death skeleton, but ended here with an Eva Green shell, hence the names...)

I was expecting a lot of loam (mainly terrageddon variants) and eventually went 3-3 winning against solidarity (duh), and twice against stupid burn (bigg bitch+jitte did the trick), and lost against UGB landstill TWICE, and once against ichorid combo...

Ashenmoor gouger's went all the way multiple times, and people really didn't seem to like it on my side of the field, I never wished for negator in his slot, so this guy's staying :D.

I really have no idea what went wrong against landstill... they just seemed to draw what they needed every time to answer everything I threw at em.

Any advice for playing this deck against landstill would be really appreciated.

Illissius

07-31-2008, 01:24 PM

One of the advantages of not playing green is you can play Dystopia in the sideboard. Is there any reason not to?

torgar

07-31-2008, 02:10 PM

I really have no idea what went wrong against landstill... they just seemed to draw what they needed every time to answer everything I threw at em.

Any advice for playing this deck against landstill would be really appreciated.

Landstill is just good.

What seemed to be the roadblock? Was it Humility or recurring EE or just a combination of StP/Wrath?

Best weapons you have against landstill are Withered Wretch, Hippie, discard, Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle.

Best targets for Needles are Factory and Decree of Justice (or whatever inferior win condition they run Ajani/Hoofprints).

If you end up with a Needle on DoJ and have extirpated their Dragon you're in good shape as far as not losing until they EE your Needle.

The cards I would board out first would be Snuff Outs/Sinkholes. You have Wastelands to take care of their Factories.

Jaiminho

07-31-2008, 02:36 PM

Landstill is just good.

What seemed to be the roadblock? Was it Humility or recurring EE or just a combination of StP/Wrath?

Best weapons you have against landstill are Withered Wretch, Hippie, discard, Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle.

Best targets for Needles are Factory and Decree of Justice (or whatever inferior win condition they run Ajani/Hoofprints).

If you end up with a Needle on DoJ and have extirpated their Dragon you're in good shape as far as not losing until they EE your Needle.

The cards I would board out first would be Snuff Outs/Sinkholes. You have Wastelands to take care of their Factories.

He was talking about UGB Landstill, not UW.

torgar

07-31-2008, 03:13 PM

Oh derf.. my bad. BGU What's that Pernicious Deed and just man-lands?

Then Needle and Extirpates and Krosan Grip still hold as MVP cards, I'd think. Haven't had much experience with non-white Landstill.

overseer1234

07-31-2008, 04:29 PM

Yeah, it was Ugb landstill, with, deed, EE, putrify, and innocent blood flying around my ears, anything relevant gets countered and half of my threats get extirpated (3x main deck...)...

It really wasn't a pretty sight...

Why i don't play dystopia? because I couldn't find any.. what would they replace in the sideboard?

Illissius

07-31-2008, 04:30 PM

I'm guessing the Smothers, and then which of the four cards you want to play only three of is a difficult question and up to you.

Valarne

07-31-2008, 04:46 PM

Well, time for my first reply. And a side remark it will be, concerning Skittering Skirge.

I think they could be quite decent in a build running 3 Jittes, and 12-14 creatures. Sui shouldn't commit itself to heavy on the board, in a build with this creature count. So having an early and single Skirge put the pressure would seem decent. Having, say, 4 thoughtseize, 2 Duress, 4 Bob, and 4 Skirge, should give a nice shot at great first-turn dark ritual play.
I mention the jittes, because they make a single, evading creature much more relevant and decent on the board, obviously. Besides, adversaries tend to want to hold back with their removal when faced with 'subpar' creatures such as Skittering Skirge.

Thor

07-31-2008, 05:58 PM

So I took this list to a local tournament and 35 other people showed up.

4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant
4x Phyrexian Negator
1x Tombstalker

4x Thoughtsize
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy

3x Extirpate

4x Smother
4x Ghastly Demise

4x Dark Ritual

2x Jitte

4x Wasteland
4x Mirsha's Factory
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawg.
11x Swamp

SB
1x Extirpate
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Powder Keg
1x Jitte
4x E-Plague
3x Nantuko Shade(? I didnt have all my cards with me, and I could cast him)

Short report? Sure why not.

Round 1 Zach w/ RW Goblins

Game 1: I smother relevant green guys then the 'ole jitte gets active.

Game 2: Lacky, Warchief, blah blah blah

Game 3: Turn 1 rit, e-plague, Turn 2 rit E-plague, Turn 3 waste a Plateau Extirpate it. Damn. Nice Hand.

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2 Brett w/ 'Zerk Stompy

Game 1: I mull to 5 and keep a Waste + Factory hand, I see no black mana.

Game 2: Discard his hand, kill and dudes, Jittie on Hyppie goes all the way

Game 3: Ritual into Thoughsize, Cabal Therapy, Duress. He had forests left....

2-0 (4-2)

Round 3 Burn

I get monkey stomped both games.

2-1 (4-4)

Round 4 Faeries

Game 1: Kept a kinda bad hand but he couldn't deal with a turn one negator + discard

Game 2: Discarded counters, Plague, scooped 'em up.

3-1 (6-4)

Round 5 Joey w/ The Rock

Game 1 A real long game going like this "Play a dude" "kill that dude", repeatedly. His Top keeps him in the game for awhile, but my combo of Jitte + Factories keep his board clean and eventually go the distance.

Game 2: He mulls and stalls Keeps a one lander, I proceed to Jew him out (not that is anything wrong with that) with my double Wasteland draw
4-1 (8-4)

Me and a buddy(Braves) make top 8 (playing Rbg Goblins)

Round 1 Top 8

"Bizarro" Zach w/ The Pseudo Mirror (only he has Nether Void and other such nonsense)

Game 1: Bob does the Card Drawing thing and Stalker hits w/ a Jitte

Game 2: Fuck Sinkhole, Beats me down with the usual cast of shades and specters while i play with myself and my no black mana.

Game 3: We trade discard, but he is stuck on one swamp and two factories, I Waste one, and then get rid of his hand , Negator, Stalker, and a Jitte fueled Bob swing for more life than he has.

We Split top 4 Because its 12:30 and Wednesday.

HammafistRoob

07-31-2008, 10:57 PM

Damn, I wish I still had my foily Sui Black deck.

jakolhops

09-16-2008, 09:59 PM

wow i was looking and looking for the sui Black thread, and i dont mean to be a nerco but i think sui black will always be a decent deck that can stand up to anything due to the pre-emptive nature that is Suicide Black

My current list is for more agro meta as a forsee me not having to many problems with decks that dont have too many creatures.

Creatures-19
4 Carnophage
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Withered Wretch
4 Hyptotic Spector
3 Tombstalker

Spells-20
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Snuff out
4 Reanimate

Lands-21
4 wasteland
2 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
14 swamp
1 Volraths Stronghold

i have played several games on MWS and done pretty well. The discarding of their tarmo or w/e creature then reanimate is awsome,
i would put reasons for putting certain cards into it, but they are all very obvious

Let me know what you guys think about this deck.

Arsenal

10-09-2008, 12:31 PM

So, yawg07 over at SCG forums pointed out an interesting creature: Stillmoon Cavalier.

I'm thinking this guy could take the place of Stromgald Crusader, but I don't know how relevant his pro black will be, and how feasible it is to invest that much mana (if you want him to truly outshine Crusader) into him when you have Shades and spells hungry for mana too. Also, the 3cmc is a bit more of a pain under Confidant.

For reference:

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle

Captain Hammer

11-12-2008, 03:20 PM

Cathatl, I love the core of your list.

But you absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely should be playing 4 Tombstalker, 3 Gouger/Shade rather than the other way around. Tombstalker is such a bomb that cutting one is not acceptable considering that you're playing 7 fetchlands and 4 Wasteland too.

I were playing monoblack, I would rather opt to play 4 Snuff Out, 2 Smother than a 3/3 split.

And I would certainly make room for 2-4 Reanimate. I suggest going -2 Jitte, +2 Reanimate.

I also would be concerned about the dysnergy between playing 4 Gouger 3 Shade with 4 Wasteland. That's a lot of colorless mana in a deck with 7 threats that hate colorless mana. So I guess I would cut Gouger before cutting Shade, just because Gouger can't stand colorless mana that much more.

Basically, this...

// Lands:
10 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

// Creatures:
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Ashenmoor Gouger

// Instants:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
2 Smother

// Sorceries:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Reanimate

I have to say though, I really think the deck would be that much better if you went...

-4 Swamp
+4 Bayou

-4 Shade
+4 Goyf

You're already forking over the money for fetchlands (to support Tombstalker). Why not take that final step to play the best threat in the format and make this deck a complete monster.

My current list is for more agro meta as a forsee me not having to many problems with decks that dont have too many creatures.

Creatures-19
4 Carnophage
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Withered Wretch

IMO, Sarcomancy >> Carnophage if you're running Negator, and esp if you're playing other zombies.

It gives you two permanents to sac to Negator when desperate.

I know you can't Reanimate Sarcomancy, but in all seriousness, how often are you going to Reanimate a vanilla 2/2 in a deck filled with 15 other better targets and with Thoughseizes, Hymns, Hyppies and Removal to get your oppontents critters into their yard too.

Withered Wretch is interesting but I would think Ashenmoor Gouger and Nantuko Shade would both be much better. Wretch almost never gets to swing in this meta where 2/2 get eaten for breakfast and spit out.

Arsenal

11-12-2008, 03:27 PM

In builds featuring Tombstalker, I wouldn't run maindeck Jitte. I would only use maindeck Jitte in Confidant builds running mostly of 2/* guys. I mean Jitte is nice, but seems a bit win more when your guys are already 5/5 or 4/4. For builds running lots of 2/* disruption type creatures, Jitte is necessary.

overseer1234

11-12-2008, 05:49 PM

I like the thought of MBA in a EVA GREEN-shell (-goyf-seal and +gouger/wasp lancer+jitte), since I've been playing it that way myself.

But here's something Ive been testing recently and is plays pretty well :)

Dark Meekstone

Main Deck:
4x Meekstone
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Bitterblossom
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother
17x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
4x Pithing Needle
3x Yixlid Jailer
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate/Leyline of the void

The sideboard isn't definitive yet, bus Ive been trying to play some yard hate main deck (wretch/jailer) in order to make some room in the board (maybe for more removal). The first creature to kick would be specter, but that almost sounds like blasphemy...

Anyway, all help is appreciated :)

DalkonCledwin

11-12-2008, 11:29 PM

So I took some of the ideas you all suggested, and then some of the ideas some friends suggested and this is what I came up with:

// Lands:
10 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

// Creatures:
4 Tombstalker
3 Ashenmoor Gouger
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade

// Enchantments:
2 Phyrexian Arena

// Instants:
4 Snuff Out
2 Smother
4 Dark Ritual

// Sorceries:
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Perish
4 Cursed Totem

I am almost tempted to take 1 of the wastelands out in favor of another swamp due to the number of double to triple black casting cost cards in the deck...

Dark Meekstone

Main Deck:
4x Meekstone
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Bitterblossom
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother
17x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
4x Pithing Needle
3x Yixlid Jailer
4x Engineered Plague
4x Extirpate/Leyline of the void

I think that looks incredibly powerful :D

Jak

11-13-2008, 12:24 AM

People should play Demigod.

raharu

11-13-2008, 12:35 AM

People should play Demigod.
Without a method to toss some in the bin, it looks much worse than Tombstalker. It's a nice thought, though.

Jak

11-13-2008, 02:03 AM

Eh it is still uncounterable 5/4 for 5 with flying and haste. Seems decent. It is five mana though, so maybe moxes to help?

overseer1234

11-13-2008, 04:05 AM

I think that looks incredibly powerful :D

Thanks, it's still a work in progress, and I still need to work out the kinks a little bit...

Especially the sideboard needs some serious work. However 4 leyline/extirpate a, 4 needle and 4 plague seems pretty standard to me.

So that leave's us with 3 open slot's, and I wish there were like 9 (3 for extra yard hate, 3 for extra combo hate and 3 for extra removal...). So I cant really chose...

Skeggi

11-13-2008, 04:39 AM

Eh it is still uncounterable 5/4 for 5 with flying and haste.
Is this true? How are the rulings on this? I thought you could let the 'When you play" trigger resolve and then counter it.

overseer1234

11-13-2008, 05:01 AM

Is this true? How are the rulings on this? I thought you could let the 'When you play" trigger resolve and then counter it.

This is true for the first one you play, but the one's after that are practically uncounterable.

However drawing multiple's every game seems a bit to optimistic when you're not playing card draw (a.k.a. dark confidant) so I think demigod is best in a build that run's Dark Confidant + Sensei's Divining Top (5 damage when flipped is pretty painful)+ off course some fetch to shuffle away the bad cards.

johanessen

11-13-2008, 06:38 PM

Flash Hulk is banned

DalkonCledwin

11-13-2008, 06:40 PM

Flash Hulk is banned

I said FlashLESS as in it doesn't actually have the Flash card in it.... :rolleyes:

Protean Hulk isn't actually banned, just the flash card is...

johanessen

11-13-2008, 06:45 PM

Ah kk

A question, why don`t you run Urborg?

DalkonCledwin

11-13-2008, 06:48 PM

Ah kk

A question, why don`t you run Urborg?

2 answers...

1.) Wastelands (and rain of tears / sinkholes) that are pervasive in my meta
2.) I am not all to sure about that.... I will have to consider the urborg's....

DalkonCledwin

11-15-2008, 10:46 PM

I hope its been long enough that I am allowed to post again....

Anyways, what does this deck do against Elephant Grass / Enchantress.dec? I played that match up tonight and had a real tough time of it. The only thing I can think of to do against it is to play Perish while they have a great deal of their cards in play.

EDIT: actually scratch that perish deal I just realized it can't deal with enchantments... so yeah what deals with enchantress....

Arsenal

11-16-2008, 02:15 AM

Early disruption, Plague on Enchantress, Dystopia, and lots of praying.

darkalucard

11-16-2008, 03:02 AM

Early disruption, Plague on Enchantress, Dystopia, and lots of praying.

Enchantress? :confused:

There is no such creature type...

Wizard's errated it away into Druid. :mad: Shame on them.

overseer1234

11-16-2008, 08:42 AM

Against enchantress you should have a pretty good chance pré-board :)

Sinkhole their aura'd lands, thoughtseize and hymn them, en hope they can't keep their elephant grass in play for to long (or just play your discard). Realy I play suicide and enchantress and believe me, that deck really cant stand early land destruction+discard.

Post board it depends if they's running sacred ground and that weird enchantment that gives them live+ card draw if they have to discard. Then just pray for a turn 1 ritual+thoughtseize+hymn, turn 2 sinkhole...

DalkonCledwin

11-16-2008, 11:20 AM

Damnosus

11-17-2008, 07:27 PM

So I have been playing MBA at my local store for a while now (mostly cause it is one of the cheaper decks in legacy), and after seeing overseer1234's Dark Meekstone list I think I want to make some changes. Here is what I normally run:

3x Stromgald Crusader
4x Sarcomancy
2x Duress
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Ritual
3x Smother
3x Diabolic Edict
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
18x Swamp

Not a terrible list: I usually go 3-1 or 2-2 depending on my matchups, losing mostly due to Thresh (i.e. Goyf), Belcher (though I have beaten him, that first game really gives him a good lead), Goblins (only once though when I got screwed game 1 and couldn't find a plague during game 2), reanimator (he gets very lucky), and Ichorid (which is rough).

My proposed changes are as follows:
Remove: 3 Diabolic Edicts, 4 Sarcomancy, and 3 Stromgald Crusader.
Add: 1 Smother, 3 Meekstone, 4 Black Knights, 2 Extirpate.

My reasoning: I like meekstone because my black weenies work so well under it: Jitte and Shade can both get around it. Plus, if it sticks, it is kind of like mass removal of that particular creature (at least after they swing). Since I have such a hard time against goyfs, this should be really nice.

The extra Smother is because most of the stuff that can still work under Meekstone can be targeted by smother. The Black Knights I feel are better than Pump/Jump Knights because now I don't need the extra zombies to shut off sarcomancy, and my only mana intensive creature will be shade. Additionally, the first strike will be really great against anything that works under meekstone. The T2 will be nice against things like fanatic. The flying may be missed, but so far, I definitely would have preferred first strike more often than flying. The 2 extirpate should probably be 2 more duresses, but I like the idea of having something that somewhat hurts combo/most control/and ichorid in the deck. They will be really nice too if I can grab counterbalance (because MBA just dies to that). Late game duresses can also be dead cards sometimes.

With the inclusion of Meekstone, the stuff that I would normally try and kill with Edicts is gone (namely large things). Additionally, though the non-targeting is nice, edict can sometimes be a very dead card (probably gonna move it to the board). Sarcomancy has been kind of a bust for me: multiple times it has killed me and thus I have become rather squeamish about trading with the tokens. I just really do not like it, and I would rather just have disruptive one drops. Without sarcomancies, one of the reasons for keeping the Jump knights is gone, so they will be replaced too.

Thus the final list will look like this:
3x Meekstone
4x Black Knight
2x Duress
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother
2x Extirpate
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
18x Swamp

Why no LD? Well for one I don't have the cards/they are rather expensive (all I have are 3 wastelands which couldn't do enough damage on their own). Additionally, I really enjoy consistency. Adding Wasteland can sometimes screw that up.

How does this list look, any thoughts?

3duece

11-17-2008, 11:11 PM

The list looks different, but not bad. My main concerns are for the creature selection, there just has to be something better than black knight. Tombstalker is great but without fetches and wasteland he's a little slow. I think your best options are ashenmoore gouger and stillmoon cavalier. Cavelier's abilities are nice, and gouger is pretty much a house and safer than negator.

Galroth

11-17-2008, 11:27 PM

DalkonCledwin

11-17-2008, 11:37 PM

Nix on Ashenmoore Gouger namely because he doesn't operate under Meekstone. 3duece is right in that Black Knight is a little weak.

First though, why would you run anything less that 4x Meekstone. Black has the best selection of cratures to run in the 2/x power. Really, what compares to Confidant, Hyppie, Shade... and for God's name why wouldn't you play Bitterblossom? It's synergy with Meekstone makes it easy for creature/threat slot 13x-16x.

from what I can gather his reasoning is because he is running on a rather tight budget.... hence the lack of sinkholes.... Then again Bitterblossom probably is considerably cheaper than say, Sinkholes....

overseer1234

11-18-2008, 12:08 PM

after seeing overseer1234's Dark Meekstone list I think I want to make some changes.
Thanks, I'm honored :cool: :tongue:

3x Meekstone
4x Black Knight
2x Duress
3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother
2x Extirpate
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
18x Swamp

How does this list look, any thoughts?

Looks nice, but i like Order of the Ebon Hand better in the black knight slot.
Second, I don't like extirpate main deck unless you REALLY know your meta, so this go's to the sideboard. so maybe you could play your 4th meekstone and an extra swamp (18 land seems a bit on the low side to me..)

Damnosus

11-19-2008, 11:26 PM

Thanks everyone for the advice, especially the extra swamp: my normal list ran only 18 and I definitely need 2 swamps to be ok. I feel really stupid for not picking up on that :eek: . Sadly I have to agree that Bitterblossom is highly necessary for meekstone builds. Since I have no bitterblossoms, and I want to focus my magic spending on other things, I will need to go back to the drawing board.

On a different note, I was wondering if this list had ever been discussed: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20564

If it has, my apologies, and would you mind directing me to the page that it is on? If not I am curious as to what you all think, especially as it is so different to the normal lists that I usually see.

heroicraptor

11-19-2008, 11:38 PM

Looks nice, but i like Order of the Ebon Hand better in the black knight slot.
Better than Stromgald Crusader? Seems like Flying > First Strike. Or Stillmoon Cavalier, who can do both.

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 11:18 AM

so yeah last night I tested my mono-black deck against a Team America deck, and won against it 2-0. This deserves a great deal more testing, if it proves that Suicide Black has a favorable match up against Team America then we could all have a very good tournament scene coming up due to the fact that I have a feeling Team America is going to be one of the more popular decks in the near future.

If anyone is interested in the list that I used in this match, please feel free to PM me (I have decided not to publically post my lists anymore as I do not like having those where people in my meta can see them).

Arsenal

11-21-2008, 11:31 AM

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 11:35 AM

That's not too surprising as Team America's Stifles, Wastelands, and Snuff Outs are dead against you, your disruption suite matches their disruption suite, we play more creatures, and play maindeck removal that actually works against them.

well actually my build does run fetch lands (to thin the deck), its just that I made sure to pop them only when the Team America deck was tapped out, or after it had used a Daze with only one land, and thus didn't have lands to begin with at least not to cast a Stifle.

Arsenal

11-21-2008, 11:52 AM

@ Damnosus

18 Swamp, if you're playing 4 Dark Ritual and running the Confidant build (lots of 1-2cc spells, 4-8 3cc spells), is fine. I've never come across 18 Swamp being too low. I think Tacosnape, when he played Sui Black, also came to the conclusion that 18 Swamp + 4 Dark Ritual is sufficient for Confidant Sui.

EDIT: For reference

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Dark Confidant

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle

Pretty standard Confidant Sui. I'd like my chances versus Team America with this list; Stifle, Wasteland, Snuff Out are all dead (I suppose Stifle can be pitched to FoW, but whatever), our disruption suite is comparable, we both run legit clocks (theirs being largely dependant on the yard though), Confidant vs. their dig is somewhat comparable, and Dark Ritual can help against their Sinkholes.

Nihil Credo

11-21-2008, 01:17 PM

well actually my build does run fetch lands (to thin the deck)

Don't. (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=3096)

Arsenal

11-21-2008, 01:25 PM

Don't. (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=3096)

I've seen some tempo-based Tombstalker Sui builds (think Eva Green shell, minus the Seals and Goyfs) using fetches for Stalker food. Although I do not use fetches in any mono-colored deck, for decks running Stalker, I can see why it might be warranted.

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 03:00 PM

Blackened

11-21-2008, 03:10 PM

3duece

11-21-2008, 03:12 PM

I've seen some tempo-based Tombstalker Sui builds (think Eva Green shell, minus the Seals and Goyfs) using fetches for Stalker food. Although I do not use fetches in any mono-colored deck, for decks running Stalker, I can see why it might be warranted.

Sorry Arsenal, I know you've seen this before:

4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 phyrexian negator
4 tombstalker

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 snuff out
3 vendetta
2 umezawa's jitte

4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
10 swamp

The fetches are only to support tombstalker, plus it's suicide black so I don't like winning with more than five life :wink:

Arsenal

11-21-2008, 03:12 PM

I've always found Fetchies are excellent in any deck, even a mono colored deck. I like how it thins the deck. I can see why in a Stifle-heavy environment they might not be played as much if they're unnecessary.

Upon further review...

Don't. (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?id=3096)

3duece

11-21-2008, 03:13 PM

I've always found Fetchies are excellent in any deck, even a mono colored deck. I like how it thins the deck. I can see why in a Stifle-heavy environment they might not be played as much if they're unnecessary.

The thinning effect doesn't noticeably affect your draws in any deck, but especially in a deck as fast as this.

Blackened

11-21-2008, 03:17 PM

I just never really looked at it so mathematically. I guess to the untrained eye it seems as though they're thinning your deck.

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 03:21 PM

even though the fetches don't noticeably thin your deck, they do provide necessary speed to getting the Tombstalker out much earlier. Which is why I would definitely suggest running them in any deck that utilizes Tombstalker as a win condition.

3duece

11-21-2008, 03:22 PM

@blackened
Well, the thing is you're not really wrong, as in you're obviously getting land out of the deck, and it probably does matter if you're playing a slower control deck. But with anything not planning to see turn 15, it's not really relevant.

Blackened

11-21-2008, 03:24 PM

I understand and do see where you're coming from. This deck is very speedy. I love this build and all the branches like Red Death and Eva Green. They're very fun to play.

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 03:28 PM

Blackened

11-21-2008, 03:29 PM

I never thought of "hope" as "win" in any situation. Chance is a big part of this game and I don't like finding myself relying on it.

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 03:30 PM

I never thought of "hope" as "win" in any situation. Chance is a big part of this game and I don't like finding myself relying on it.

um... you almost always have to rely on chance in this game... if you don't like relying on chance, then perhaps Magic isn't the game for you.... perhaps you should be playing Chess.

In any case, the word "hope" and "win win" in my last post were used more or less metaphorically.

Blackened

11-21-2008, 03:34 PM

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 03:44 PM

Relying on chance? You almost never have to rely on chance if you build and shuffle your deck properly. I didn't say chance doesn't partake in EVERY draw you make in the game, but things can be helped greatly with good deckbuilding and shuffling. I guess I came off the wrong way. I don't like finding myself riding on one draw as opposed to a select amount of potential draws, where if your deck is built properly you would have many of them.

um... if your not relying on even a slight amount of chance when you shuffle your deck... then you are cheating via stacking your deck... the whole point of shuffling your deck is to randomize it and thus create a factor of chance in the process of your next draw....

Blackened

11-21-2008, 03:50 PM

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 04:05 PM

Okay I didn't elaborate on my difference between relying and knowing well enough apparently. I understand that chance exists in the game of Magic, I'm simply saying that relying on a top deck isn't a good thing and tells you your deck needs help. That's all I'm trying to get across.

unfortunately going into top-deck mode, often is one of the biggest and most important issues that any deck faces in major tournaments. Especially suicide decks that DO NOT feature Bob or Arena, such as my Suicide Deck.

darkalucard

11-21-2008, 04:13 PM

the other advantage I have found of fetch lands is that they allow you to shuffle your deck, so that if you are getting no land draws, but you have a fetch land, you can shuffle your deck in hopes of getting both a new land from the fetch, and additional land draws. So its win win.

If you a drawing from a "land pocket" you still will have no idea what card you are drawing. The only difference from; shuffling and drawing a card, and not shuffling and drawing a card, in the short term is all in your head.

um... if your not relying on even a slight amount of chance when you shuffle your deck... then you are cheating via stacking your deck... the whole point of shuffling your deck is to randomize it and thus create a factor of chance in the process of your next draw....

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I play poker and I still don't rely on chance while playing. Both in Magic and Poker your role is to make the best possible decisions you can in each situation you are presented with and the fewest mistakes. "Luck" has nothing to do with it. I do not relying on ANY chance, I do not even think about it. The most I ever do is give myself the most opportunities to get "lucky" by for example playing the game out even though I would have to assume my next three draws must be specific cards and if they're not I would lose.

unfortunately going into top-deck mode, often is one of the biggest and most important issues that any deck faces in major tournaments.
Uh... no. You are terribly wrong. If your in top deck mode then obviously you have played all your cards and if you still are not winning then maybe you have a bad match-up or made mistakes. Most of the type of your decks at the point that they would be in "top deck mode" where they are losing and need to draw something to win. You are going to lose anyways. Even if you end up winning it has nothing to do with relying on your top-decks.

@ DalkonCledwin

Anyways this thread is getting of topic and if you would like to continue this conversation you should probably make a specific thread on it.

DalkonCledwin

11-21-2008, 04:54 PM

@ DalkonCledwin

Anyways this thread is getting of topic and if you would like to continue this conversation you should probably make a specific thread on it.
In all honesty I could care less about that particular topic. As "getting lucky" or not "getting lucky" rarely factors into my games. I either win on my skill, or lose off of a combination of factors, but rarely is luck a factor in it.

So no, I really do not need to continue this conversation.

TrueE

11-22-2008, 04:29 PM

New here and just started playing Legacy in the past week. I'm not going to read this entire thread, but I have looked over it. That said, heres what I'm playing now:

4x Sarcomancy
3x Nantuko shade
3x Stromgald Crusader
4x Phyrexian Negator
3x Tombstalker

4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress (Seize, if I had them)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Smother
4x Snuff Out
4x Grafted Wargear

20x Swamp (I have no fetches, but this should be 4x Delta, 4x Mire and 12x Swamp I think.)

Sarcomancy - 1st turn play 8-12. I also don't consider this optional with Negator Builds.

Nantuko shade - People debate him, but I've had great luck with shades. I've often found them invaluable after the game breaks down late.

Stromgald Crusader - Flys and had STP protection. Also can pump in a pinch.

Phyrexian Negator - Yeah, he's dangerous, but its called Suicide Black for a reason. You could throw in Specter or Gouger here if you feel the need.

Tombstalker - A bomb late game or off Rituals early.

Dark Ritual - No comment.

Duress - Should be Seize, but I have none at the moment.

Hymn to Tourach - Amazing against so many decks.

Smother - Goyf-be-gone. Also handles Bob, Specter, Werebear, etc.

Snuff Out - This makes Negator less of a liability by removing blockers while not giving up other plays on that turn. Contagion can sub in here or for smother. There should be at least 4x free kill spells though.

Grafted Wargear - Yes, that says "Grafted Wargear", not Jitte. I feel this is a bomb in aggressive decks like Sui Black. Jitte is a better turn 5+ Card, but this deck wants the game done by then. It's kind of dangerous and can't switch to other creatures, but you will always have a 5/3 threat or bigger on the board. Give it a try in this build before blasting the choice.

Here is an alternative Bob shell. Changes marked with *

4x Dark Confidant*
3x Nantuko shade
3x Stromgald Crusader
4x Hypnotic Specter*
3x Tombstalker(?)

4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smother*
3x Diabolic Edict*
4x Grafted Wargear

20x Swamp

This may be the way to go. This deck really shines in turns 4-6 and doesn't sacrifice too much early (Except for only having 8 turn 1 plays). Wargear is great because Bob can drop that wussy mentality of his and swing for 5 on turn 3 and if he does die in combat, you still got a card out of him and (bar a 5/6 Goyf) killed a creature.

Stalkers bounce between 2-3 in this build. They are dangerous with bob, but with wargear you should have a fast enough clock to only take 11-14 from bob even with a stalker flipped. I've also thought about something like Masticore or his Razormane cousin in Stalkers spot. Bob deals less damage then with a Stalker and lets you play threats post Core. I'd love opinions on this in particular.

troopatroop

11-22-2008, 04:45 PM

Stalkers bounce between 2-3 in this build. They are dangerous with bob, but with wargear you should have a fast enough clock to only take 11-14 from bob even with a stalker flipped. I've also thought about something like Masticore or his Razormane cousin in Stalkers spot. Bob deals less damage then with a Stalker and lets you play threats post Core. I'd love opinions on this in particular.

I personally think that Tombstalker is the biggest blessing black aggro decks have recieved in recent memory, and would play 3 with Dark Confidant and 4 without him. I personally hate Negator and would never play with him. He's pretty terrible right now imo, and while playing Tombstalker and Bob in the same deck is similar to the "suicide" theme of playing Negator, I think it's alot more realistic. You're probably not going to be flipping Tombstalker all that often, and he's too good not to play. I think the 8 life is alot, but not nearly as devastating as losing your permanants.

DalkonCledwin

11-22-2008, 11:33 PM

yeah I just won a game against Ichorid tonight off of 3 dark rituals into a Tombstalker on the first turn.... it was 1337 :D

Also in regards to the above posted deck:

I would personally run Ashenmoor Gouger over the Phyrexian Negator, but that is all personal preference and depends on what your meta looks like. If you don't have alot of aggro or burn in your meta then run the Phyrexian Negator. However if Aggro or Burn is prevalent in your meta I would run the Ashenmoor Gouger 100% of the time before I would run the Negator.

Additionally I would remove 1 Smother and 1 Snuff Out so you can run 2x Diabolic Edict. That card is just to good against things like Mystic Enforcer and Nimble Mongoose not to run.

As for your bob build, no, do not run Tombstalker in a build that is also running Bob. That is asking for your opponent to win the game basically. The risks outweigh the benefits of the two cards being run together.

overseer1234

11-23-2008, 06:12 AM

As for your bob build, no, do not run Tombstalker in a build that is also running Bob. That is asking for your opponent to win the game basically. The risks outweigh the benefits of the two cards being run together.
On the contrary my friend.

I've Always run tombstalker in my bob build (2 actually, until I played meekstone obviously). Ive won more game's by smashing my opponent's face with it, than I've lost by flipping it (usually I flip it, play it, and then still smash his face. Note that this won't happen in a agro matchup :D) but that's due to my meta.

DalkonCledwin

11-23-2008, 06:57 AM

On the contrary my friend.

I've Always run tombstalker in my bob build (2 actually, until I played meekstone obviously). Ive won more game's by smashing my opponent's face with it, than I've lost by flipping it (usually I flip it, play it, and then still smash his face. Note that this won't happen in a agro matchup :D) but that's due to my meta.

2 is fine in a Bob Build. However 3+ is asking for punishment in my personal opinion. I run 4 Tombstalker and 3 Snuff Out. So I would personally avoid running Bob in my deck due to the probability of taking 4 or 8 damage on a single flip.

overseer1234

11-23-2008, 09:13 AM

I run 4 Tombstalker and 3 Snuff Out. So I would personally avoid running Bob in my deck due to the probability of taking 4 or 8 damage on a single flip.

Yeah, but when you play it like that (in an EVA-green shell I presume) you don't really need a bob since everything short from land is a business spell :D

Also that shell is built for tempo, and bob sure as hell aint made fot tempo...

DalkonCledwin

11-23-2008, 10:30 AM

Yeah, but when you play it like that (in an EVA-green shell I presume) you don't really need a bob since everything short from land is a business spell :D

Also that shell is built for tempo, and bob sure as hell aint made fot tempo...

no, I completely agree, and yeah I do run more or less an Eva Green Shell, at least I do in the finalized version of my list.

Captain Hammer

11-23-2008, 12:54 PM

Yeah, but when you play it like that (in an EVA-green shell I presume) you don't really need a bob since everything short from land is a business spell :D

Also that shell is built for tempo, and bob sure as hell aint made fot tempo...

Yep, really the only reason that I would opt to forego Tombstalker and play a less tempo oriented deck with Confidants instead would be if I was playing a Meekstone based deck that runs...

4 Meekstone
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter

and possibly throw in stuff like Ghastly Demise, Sarcomancy or Carnophage along with the usual suspects

LordEvilTeaCup

11-23-2008, 01:13 PM

Grafted Wargear - Yes, that says "Grafted Wargear", not Jitte. I feel this is a bomb in aggressive decks like Sui Black. Jitte is a better turn 5+ Card, but this deck wants the game done by then. It's kind of dangerous and can't switch to other creatures, but you will always have a 5/3 threat or bigger on the board. Give it a try in this build before blasting the choice.

I think this card is underrated as well, but not sure if it should replace Jitte. Interestingly enough, it gives you a way to sac Bob if he does happen to be in a position to kill you.

xsockmonkeyx

11-23-2008, 01:57 PM

In all honesty I could care less about that particular topic. As "getting lucky" or not "getting lucky" rarely factors into my games. I either win on my skill, or lose off of a combination of factors, but rarely is luck a factor in it.

Getting lucky opening hands is a major part of any Sui strategy. Just saying.

overseer1234

11-23-2008, 07:49 PM

no, I completely agree, and yeah I do run more or less an Eva Green Shell, at least I do in the finalized version of my list.
Glad we're on the same side then :) .
Probably the sideboard needs the most work in that particular build.

standard slots would be:
4x pithing needle
4x engineered plague
4x leyline of the void
3x Umezawas jitte (unless your running it in the main like me(in the seal slot), than this slot would be extra yard hate(ichorid), discard (combo/controll), removal (agro),...)

Yep, really the only reason that I would opt to forego Tombstalker and play a less tempo oriented deck with Confidants instead would be if I was playing a Meekstone based deck that runs...

4 Meekstone
4 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter

and possibly throw in stuff like Ghastly Demise, Sarcomancy or Carnophage along with the usual suspects

Exactly what I'd be running, except that sarcomancy and carnophage have better replacements, i would run some yard hate main deck like yixlid jailer, or cabal therapy (which run amazing along side biterblossmom)

DalkonCledwin

11-30-2008, 01:18 AM

okay, I have lost two weeks in a row to a Vengeance Stax (uses Ajani Vengeant to secure its win) with my budget Suicide Black deck.

I think the Ajani Vengeant List looks something like the following:

Creatures:
4 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

Planeswalkers:
4 Ajani Venjeant

Spells:
4 Armageddon

Artifacts:
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flagstone of Trokair
4 Plains

my question is, what can I do to improve this match up, and stay within black. At the moment the best I can think of is Gloom (which increases the casting cost of white spells by 3) and Tormod's Crypt which will hurt their crucible. Unfortunately that really doesn't seem to do enough against the stax deck as most of their cards are artifacts. The only thing I can really add to this from my sideboard is Powder Keg, but if they set Chalice to two before I can get a powderkeg onto the field then I am pretty much shut off from playing a Powderkeg. The only other option I can think of is Gate to Phyrexia, but that really seems like a bad option to me.

Edit: this is for a budget deck more than anything else so Bitterblossom + Gate to Phyrexia is kind of out of the running, at least for now....

Mordel

11-30-2008, 05:17 AM

Gloom is stupid.

As a stax player, I hate discard profoundly. Artifact destruction would also serve you well.

You are letting yourself get tricked into thinking the white cards are crucial in the match, which they are important, but the artifacts are what typically pave the way for the white stuff. If you rip his hand apart and make sure to wasteland tombs and try to keep him tight for mana and keep stuff like crucible off the table. Also, think carefully before using a wasteland on a city of traitors early in the game.

As a whole, his list is silly though: I fart in its general direction.

Running Ajani instead of ghostly prison, yet not going the fancy-pants route and running anything other than magus is fucking insane.

Is your metagame, like 90% control or something?

DalkonCledwin

11-30-2008, 10:47 AM

Is your metagame, like 90% control or something?

Yes, there is a lot of control in my meta.... at least 1 thresh deck and 3 dreadstill decks. Not sure if that makes it 90% control, but there is a lot of it.

overseer1234

11-30-2008, 03:46 PM

Well, if stax is a realy big problem in your metagame then I supose oblivion stone, or nevinral's disk are some food for thought.

As for dreadstill... How's that a bad matchup?? Did they go completly broken every time or so???

After sideboard you can play extirpate and diabolic edict/smother if they're big bitches are a pain, extra discard (duress/cabal therapy (always good)), or pithing needle (damn those myshra's :D)... but I've never had trouble with dreadstill (this go's for the mono blue AND the version that splashes goyf...)

This is offcourse if you play this deck in a EVA-green shell

Mordel

11-30-2008, 06:33 PM

Seriously, don't waste time on O-stone(horribad) or disk...just use more discard basically or maybe play a better build: that is to say something that runs wastelands and more discard. Bitter blossom would help protect you against smoker since the deck you posted is terrible and only runs a few plains, so he would have issues supporting a two counter smoker for very long.

Honestly, this should be an easy match for you because his deck is terrible.

Edit: For a metagame that is largely control, negators should be run. Snuff out should already be a no-brainer.

Arsenal

12-01-2008, 10:01 AM

Depending on who wins the roll, Stax can be an absolute beating for Suicide Black. CotV @ 1 shuts off tons of stuff (Ritual, Duress, Thoughtseize), and CotV @ 2 can even be worse (Hymn, Shade, Confidant, pump knights, Jitte, Sinkhole, Edict, etc). 3Sphere also wrecks your day in a major way; 3 mana Thoughtseize?!? No thanks.

Them playing mana accelerants & Crucible (negating your LD package, and even your discard package somewhat), coupled with the fact that 90% of their deck is untouchable by black (enchantments like Ghostly Prison, arifacts like CotV, 3Sphere, etc) makes Stax a bad matchup.

If you win the roll, I'd mulligan agressively for a strong hand with discard; keep them off there key lock pieces long enough to beat face with whatever you can.

Arsenal

12-09-2008, 01:51 PM

Confidant build:

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
3 Pithing Needle

Tombstalker build:

9 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
3 Pithing Needle

4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tombstalker

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
3 Umezawa's Jitte
________________________

As you can see, my Tombstalker build was carbon copied from the list on SCG (the Eva Green article), but I replaced green stuff with the next best black equivalent.

An interesting suggestion on a quasi-related deck (TMD's Sui Black thread) was replacing Sinkhole with Smallpox. Although our deck isn't equipped to take advantage of a Smallpox like Vaka Pox is, it still has it's value; fetchlands cannot play around a Smallpox like they can a Sinkhole, it doubles as untargetted removal for problematic creatures that Snuff Out can't handle, and it fills up our yard for an even faster Tombstalker.

Although it's just a suggestion (and one for an entirely different deck), is there any merit on even going through the trouble of testing the gauntlet?

Baumeister

12-10-2008, 07:52 PM

Arsenal

12-10-2008, 11:22 PM

@ Arsenal:

Your build looks exactly the same as mine, except I run Diabolic Edict in place of the Pithing Needles to help push Negator through. I've been really happy with the creature package though: everything is a pretty huge threat. Have you found that the Tombstalker or Dark Confidant version is more successful?

I don't think Smallpox is as effective in this deck because, like you said, we have no way to take advantage of it. If you were going to replace sinkhole with something, it would probably be something that affects the opponent directly, ie: discard or creature kill.

I've found that the Confidant build has a slight edge in the pure control and combo matchups, but I haven't done enough testing with the Tombstalker build in general for any concrete conclusions; I think each build has it's advantages over the other. Personally, I like the Confidant build (just my own personal feelings about Confidant), but I'd probably play the Tombstalker build if I was walking into a blind meta; Tombstalker build seems more even across the board, while the Confidant build boasts a better control and combo matchup, but suffers in the aggro department.

Smallpox was a suggestion posted on TMD (Vintage budget Sui Black) and it piqued my interest as many of it's positives applied to Legacy Sui Black as well. Meh, just wanted to throw it out there and see if it took off. Totally unconventional card choice, but interesting nonetheless.

Shimster

12-11-2008, 01:38 AM

Smallpox was a suggestion posted on TMD (Vintage budget Sui Black) and it piqued my interest as many of it's positives applied to Legacy Sui Black as well.
The most important difference between Legacy and Vintage suicide is the aim of its cards, though. While T1 sui is more of a control deck with some finishers (I run seven, 4 Negators and 3 'stalkers as Negator 5 - 7), T1.5 sui is an aggro deck that uses its disruption to clear the path for its creatures.

Therefore you cannot rely on Smallpox in Legacy, as it costs much of your own tempo (while Sinkhole doesn't).

If there's a version that can make a better use of it, it would be a list running Tombstalker.

Clark Kant

12-11-2008, 03:36 AM

Arsenal, I like the Tombstalker build you posted. If I had to stick with mono black, I would play something very similar. Something along these lines...

9 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out
2 Pithing Needle
2 Reanimate

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Ashenmoor Gouger/Phyrexian Negator
4 Tombstalker

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Dystopia
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Reanimate

The sideboard may look unconvential, but you would be amazed how often Reanimate ends up being a godsend. And Duress is a fantastic card to bring against those matchups where Snuff Out is useless and begging to be sided out (Control and Combo). I frequently found Engineered Plague to be wholly unsatisfactory.

Baumeister

12-11-2008, 08:48 AM

4 Ashenmoor Gouger/Phyrexian Negator

I'm interested, how often have you found Negator to be enough of a liability to run Ashenmoor Gouger over it? Additionally, which one would you run in a blind meta? I feel that regardless of Negator's downside, it has enough synergy to make it stronger than Gouger with Tombstalker.

Also, why cut Nantuko Shade? He comes out early and can take on Tarmogoyf and live - not many creatures can say that. I understand that Reanimate is good, but maybe you could move Pithing Needle to the sideboard and up the mainboard Reanimates to 3, adding the final Nantuko Shade along with it.

Finally, any thoughts about more maindeck removal? Since we're running Phyrexian Negator, I feel it's necessary. I've been running 3 Diabolic Edict alongside Snuff Out.

Arsenal

12-11-2008, 09:27 AM

The most important difference between Legacy and Vintage suicide is the aim of its cards, though. While T1 sui is more of a control deck with some finishers (I run seven, 4 Negators and 3 'stalkers as Negator 5 - 7), T1.5 sui is an aggro deck that uses its disruption to clear the path for its creatures.

Therefore you cannot rely on Smallpox in Legacy, as it costs much of your own tempo (while Sinkhole doesn't).

If there's a version that can make a better use of it, it would be a list running Tombstalker.

A resolved Smallpox does three things that a resolved Sinkhole cannot.

(1.) Forces your opponent to sacrifice a land, guaranteed. He can no longer just sit on his fetchland until he's ready to "go" (grab the Bayou to cast Goyf, grab the U. Sea to combo in your face, etc.). True, we also have to sacrifice a land, but in my testing, I've been able to comfortably operate off 3 lands; any more than that is just food for Shade.

(2.) Doubles as removal for problematic creatures. Sometimes, 4 total removal spells isn't enough, and the spell we do run has limitations/restrictions. If I'm staring down an opposing Tombstalker, or Morphling, or some other rediculous fatty that got into play, what am I going to do? DIE. Smallpox at least gives you an out in situations where Sinkhole could not, while also fulfilling different needs.

(3.) Fills your yard up for Tombstalker quickly. A resolved Smallpox, theoretically, will get a maximum of 4 cards in your yard (the sacced land, the discarded card, the sacced creature, and the Smallpox itself). If it only gets 3 in the yard because you didn't have a creature out in play, that's fine too. This is the weakest "strength" of Smallpox in the Tombstalker build, but could be relevant in certain situations.

The tempo you sacrifice isn't that great if you play Smallpox early, but it can be devastating to an opponent when timed properly. Admittedly, all the scenarios I can think of that would just wreck your opponent requires you to be on the play, but still, I don't think Smallpox should be overlooked so soon.
___________________

Regarding Negator or Gouger in the Tombstalker build, I'd run Negator. Negator + Tombstalker has synergy along the same lines as a Smallpox + Tombstalker does, while one damages your opponent for alot before feeding your Tombstalker, and the other heavily disrupts your opponent alot before feeding your Tombstalker.

Benie Bederios

12-11-2008, 09:51 AM

Arsenal

12-11-2008, 10:04 AM

@Arsenal

The downside of Small Pox in a deck with creatures is, that it's almost anytime carddisadvantage. If both players have 1 land, 1 creature and a card in hand, you will loose 4 cards where your opponent only looses 3. If you cast this early on( when the card is best to cast) it's the only spell you can play that turn. So you're wasting a turn to loose a card.

This with Dark Ritual and Negator can be problematic... Allthough I like the fact it destroys a land.

BB

Assuming I cast it turn 2-3 (sweet spot), I shouldn't really have any creatures out at all. Unless I Ritualed out a 1st turn Negator/Specter, I should just have fetches in my yard, and Swamps out in play. And if I have a 1st turn Negator/Specter, then I most certainly wouldn't be playing Smallpox (barring rare circumstances).

You wouldn't cast Smallpox just because, you'd have to pick and choose your times to achieve effectiveness. In your example, if my opponent loses 3 total cards, and I lose 4, what happened the turn before? Did I Thoughtseize and saw my opponent had nothing of importance in hand? Do I have a Swamp/fetch + Tombstalker in hand to power him out the turn after I Smallpox? What is the life total? What deck is my opponent playing?

I can give you hypotheticals all day where Smallpox would be an absolute bomb versus my opponent, and I'm sure you could give me just as many that would show Smallpox in a negative light. I think I'll just do some testing and see how often Smallpox's utility trumps Sinkhole's direct effectiveness.

DalkonCledwin

12-13-2008, 01:51 AM

@ Arsenal

I am sorry, but I playtested Smallpox, and I am sad to say, I more often than not found myself holding it, because I didn't want to sacrifice the tempo advantage I had when I drew it, instead of playing it. I am much happier with the Rain of Tears that I now play (yes they aren't Sinkholes, but I am glad they aren't Smallpox) in my budget deck than I ever was with Smallpox. In fact, I was happier with the Blights I played for one weekend before I got the Rain of Tears than I Was with the Smallpoxes.

Arsenal

12-13-2008, 02:19 AM

I've been testing Smallpox too, and it's not that bad, but it's advantages over Sinkhole didn't come into play as often as I'd hope. I still like the fact that for what that slot is designed to do, destroy land, Smallpox guarantees it, but you're right, sometimes the tempo loss to us is even greater than to the opponent. I think I'll still keep it around for kicks when I'm playing casuals with buddies.

Also, I know it's for budgetary reasons, but Rain of Tears? For 3 mana, I'd want to cast an absolute bomb.

DalkonCledwin

12-13-2008, 02:34 AM

Also, I know it's for budgetary reasons, but Rain of Tears? For 3 mana, I'd want to cast an absolute bomb.

Well unfortunately I don't know of any absolute bombs... and until I can get ahold of sinkholes... as far as I know, Rain of tears is afterall the next best thing... and my environment is relatively competitive...

Shimster

12-13-2008, 08:12 AM

[...] as far as I know, Rain of tears is afterall the next best thing [...]
Not quite.

Choking Sands and Rancid Earth are way better because they've got the same cost (1BB), but aren't vanilla.

Damnosus

12-13-2008, 02:34 PM

Not quite.

Choking Sands and Rancid Earth are way better because they've got the same cost (1BB), but aren't vanilla.

I would have to disagree with that: first off Choking Sands can't hit swamps. So they are dead against a bunch of decks. Second, Rancid earth, come midgame, will likely kill a bunch of your creatures because so many are 2/1's (pump/jump knights, shade will require mana, confidants). I would definitely go with rain of tears over both of those.

metalman2785

12-13-2008, 04:04 PM

I would have to disagree with that: first off Choking Sands can't hit swamps. So they are dead against a bunch of decks. Second, Rancid earth, come midgame, will likely kill a bunch of your creatures because so many are 2/1's (pump/jump knights, shade will require mana, confidants). I would definitely go with rain of tears over both of those.

Icequake FTW, take that mighty quinn :laugh:

Damnosus

12-13-2008, 11:27 PM

Good call sir-I had totally forgotten about that card :laugh:

DalkonCledwin

12-14-2008, 01:02 AM

I like Icequake, if I am unable to get my Sinkholes for Christmas, I am going to have to get a playset of Icequakes, that card is awesome :smile:

DalkonCledwin

12-14-2008, 04:19 PM

I am going to go against my deck posting policy and post the list I am currently testing, it will be up for a few days before I take it down... I would appreciate it if no one quoted it so that when I take it down there is no trace of the list.

In any case, any comments on the list would be appreciated. This is a list that Eldariel and I have been working on for a while... so it has a great deal of potential. I have tested it against Team America quite a bit, and it seems to do relatively well...

// Lands
10 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [A] Hypnotic Specter
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [ON] Smother
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [US] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

So here is the list.

metalman2785

12-14-2008, 05:59 PM

Looks pretty solid with one exception.

Running 4x Dark Confidant with 3X Tombstalker, 7x Fetchlands, and 4x Thoughtsieze is pretty risky. I would keep either stalker or confidant and replace the other choice with something like Ashenmoore Gouger. I know you are running Jitte main deck to support the life loss, but it is still too risky for me.

Something like,

-4x Confidant
-1 Nantuko Shade

+4 Ashenmoore Gouger
+1 Tombstalker

I also like Crucible of Worlds in the 2x slot instead of Jitte, recurring Wasteland can be very strong in the right meta. Crucible also opens up the list to 1X Raven's Crime, which rocks. I don't think anyone can argue Jitte main deck, as it is also a strong choice.

Good luck!

DalkonCledwin

12-14-2008, 07:17 PM

I found the life loss wasn't as huge of a factor as it should be with this deck. However if I was going to take anything out of the fetch lands would be the first thing to go... everything else in the deck is really really solid...

MasterC

12-15-2008, 05:25 AM

I definitely wouldn't cut Tombstalker or Confidant. These are the two cards that make Suicide competitive today. If you cut Confidant, you run out of gas very fast. If you cut Tombstalker, you can get stalled by a single Tarmogoyf very easy. I wouldn't cut the Fetchlands either, because they are needed to cast Tombstalker.

I really like the list, but I've two questions as well:

1. What's the role of extirpate in this list? Do you regard it as a pure graveyard hate card, or do you plan to board it as "resource denial" (e.g. cut off splash colors by extirpating wasted duals) as well? (Which in my opinion doesn't make that much sense in an aggressive Deck without Lategame Plan)

2. How do you use your Nantuko Shades?
Given the case: You have 2 Swamps in play, plus a Nantuko Shade. Your Opponent is sitting on 0-1 Lands (thanks to your LD) and has no creature in play. Additional Disruption like Hymn to Tourach is lurking around in your hand.

Do you disrupt your opponent and attack with a small Nantuko Shade or smash face with a pumped Nantuko Shade? (lets say the opponent controls a white mana source which enables him to cast topdecked swords to plowshares)

DalkonCledwin

12-15-2008, 12:20 PM

I really like the list, but I've two questions as well:

1. What's the role of extirpate in this list? Do you regard it as a pure graveyard hate card, or do you plan to board it as "resource denial" (e.g. cut off splash colors by extirpating wasted duals) as well? (Which in my opinion doesn't make that much sense in an aggressive Deck without Lategame Plan)

2. How do you use your Nantuko Shades?
Given the case: You have 2 Swamps in play, plus a Nantuko Shade. Your Opponent is sitting on 0-1 Lands (thanks to your LD) and has no creature in play. Additional Disruption like Hymn to Tourach is lurking around in your hand.

Do you disrupt your opponent and attack with a small Nantuko Shade or smash face with a pumped Nantuko Shade? (lets say the opponent controls a white mana source which enables him to cast topdecked swords to plowshares)

Well, I am actually toying with the idea of running Stromgald Crusader instead of Nantuko Shade, so as to minimalize having to deal with issues such as Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Ring. In testing it has down very very well. However in the situation you posed, I would probably disrupt the hand and attack with a small shade... better not to risk getting the shade killed.

As far as Extirpate goes, it is primarily an answer to Storm Combo, or a form of Resource Denial, depending on the situation. In testing I have used it very effectively against Team America to shut them off both their Underground Sea's as well as their Forces of Will... so yeah I definitely like the card.

jakolhops

12-16-2008, 02:41 PM

Arsenal

12-16-2008, 03:55 PM

Has anyone considered adding Standstill to a sui Black deck?
I would only splash blue for this card, and maybe a few SB too.
The deck always gets off to a fast start and should have no problem with a negator or some other beatstick. Any threat you play is usually larger then anything they have in the early game, then drop a quickstandstill they have to break it or they die very fast. Seems like it would work pretty well in many instances.

Because we do not play man-lands, we would be 100% dependant upon getting a Ritualed threat out turn 1, then drop a Standstill turn 2 to put any sort of pressure on the opponent. While this is awesome in theory, in practice it would simply not work often enough.

Standstill cannot be Ritualed out, which is a major drawback when compared to a turn 1 play of Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Thoughtseize + Dark Confidant. Confidant will most likely draw me more cards than Standstill would, and it swings for 2.

Typically, we want to open with disruption, then drop a creature on turn 3-4, then hold on for dear life and hope they don't topdeck playable answers. Standstill doesn't fit into this gameplan, and even if I did Ritual out a turn 1 creature, I'd rather play turn 2-3 disruption, taking away any answers they may have drawn, as opposed to letting them just play their answers.

Bourgeoise

12-16-2008, 05:05 PM

I have tested it against Team America quite a bit, and it seems to do relatively well...

// Lands
10 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [A] Hypnotic Specter
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [ON] Smother
4 [4E] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [US] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [AL] Dystopia
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

When you test this against Team America are you the one on both sides of the table? I have found that it is near impossible to do objective testing without a friend.

Is the card disadvantage via dark ritual in your Team America matchup overcome by casting hymn to tourach? Also, how do you feel about running only 3 tombstalkers? In this sort of deck I'm sure you would be able to occasionally cast one on your second turn, it seems to me that running a playset might be more beneficial than say, the fourth confidant. If you get a second stalker chances are you'll be able to play it but getting a second confidant in a deck with that high of a curve makes it a card that just sits in your hand. Not to mention the times when you just get to low health naturally via your own fetches and thoughtseize.

The problem I have seen with discard strategies is that it can not protect you from topdecks. If your opponent resolves his own tombstalker for example off of a topdeck, do you have to hope it's their only creature so you can hit it with edict or do you just lose? I would suggest adding a couple more removal spells over the two duresses since the game will come to a point where your opponent is in topdeck mode anyways and makes all of your excess discard spells dead. I think we can agree that duress is the worst of the discard spells in your list.

DalkonCledwin

12-16-2008, 05:18 PM

When you test this against Team America are you the one on both sides of the table? I have found that it is near impossible to do objective testing without a friend.

Is the card disadvantage via dark ritual in your Team America matchup overcome by casting hymn to tourach? Also, how do you feel about running only 3 tombstalkers? In this sort of deck I'm sure you would be able to occasionally cast one on your second turn, it seems to me that running a playset might be more beneficial than say, the fourth confidant. If you get a second stalker chances are you'll be able to play it but getting a second confidant in a deck with that high of a curve makes it a card that just sits in your hand. Not to mention the times when you just get to low health naturally via your own fetches and thoughtseize.

The problem I have seen with discard strategies is that it can not protect you from topdecks. If your opponent resolves his own tombstalker for example off of a topdeck, do you have to hope it's their only creature so you can hit it with edict or do you just lose? I would suggest adding a couple more removal spells over the two duresses since the game will come to a point where your opponent is in topdeck mode anyways and makes all of your excess discard spells dead. I think we can agree that duress is the worst of the discard spells in your list.

You convienently cut the part out of the quote where I asked people not to quote my deck. Anyways in response to your questions, No, I have yet to play on the opposing side of my deck. However now that a friend is thinking about playing it in an upcoming tournament, I think I will have to help them test the deck and play against it myself.

Yes, the card disadvantage of Dark Ritual is usually overcome by cards such as Hymn or Dark Confidant as well as Thoughtseize or Duress. Actually your suggestion of running a 4th Stalker verses a 4th Confidant is an interesting one. I happen to like that alot. Thanks for the advice, I think I will implement that :D

As for Duress, I do agree, it is the worst Discard in the deck. However I have found, that the 5th and 6th one cmc discard spell is actually crucial to this decks strategy. So I think for the moment I am going to keep that in the deck.

However thank you for your comments, I really appreciate them. On a side note however, could you please take my deck list out of your quote?

Blackened

12-16-2008, 06:49 PM

Yes, the card disadvantage of Dark Ritual is usually overcome by cards such as Hymn or Dark Confidant as well as Thoughtseize or Duress.

Thoughtseize and Duress aren't card advantage, but game advantage. However, more often than not, if you choose well with either of those cards it can end up swinging card advantage your way.

I've generally just preferred Eva Green to this deck with the inclusion of Tarmogoyf and excellent board sweepers and artifact destruction. It's completely understandable that this deck is different and may as well have some different motives. I think in this deck maxing Tombstalkers is a great idea. The beats they provide is just ridiculous. It's a necessity with the lack of another great beater, such as Tarmogoyf.

My two cents.

jakolhops

12-16-2008, 09:10 PM

Because we do not play man-lands, we would be 100% dependant upon getting a Ritualed threat out turn 1, then drop a Standstill turn 2 to put any sort of pressure on the opponent. While this is awesome in theory, in practice it would simply not work often enough.

Standstill cannot be Ritualed out, which is a major drawback when compared to a turn 1 play of Swamp -> Dark Ritual -> Thoughtseize + Dark Confidant. Confidant will most likely draw me more cards than Standstill would, and it swings for 2.

Typically, we want to open with disruption, then drop a creature on turn 3-4, then hold on for dear life and hope they don't topdeck playable answers. Standstill doesn't fit into this gameplan, and even if I did Ritual out a turn 1 creature, I'd rather play turn 2-3 disruption, taking away any answers they may have drawn, as opposed to letting them just play their answers.

I think you can play 3-4 Factory if your playing with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Holding on for dear life partthe the Deck was what i was talking about. Even though the 1st turn beater + standstill does temp me, i would think after ravaging their hand, and playing all my threats would be the perfect time to drop a standstill.
Perhaps though it is more cute then effective in most cases.

DalkonCledwin

12-16-2008, 09:32 PM

I think you can play 3-4 Factory if your playing with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.
Holding on for dear life partthe the Deck was what i was talking about. Even though the 1st turn beater + standstill does temp me, i would think after ravaging their hand, and playing all my threats would be the perfect time to drop a standstill.
Perhaps though it is more cute then effective in most cases.

yeah, I would say it is more "cute" than effective. As for running Mishra's Factory in addition to Yawgmoth's Tomb, I just do not think it is a good idea. the Tomb is too fragile, and the Factories are just as fragile, if not more so. We have enough threats, and enough draw cards to not really need the additional support. If you really need an additional card to fix your draws in addition to Dark Confidant, then I would suggest Sensei's Divining Top, as that synergizes really well with Dark Confidant, and gives you extra draw potential.

Galroth

12-18-2008, 07:09 PM

Jesus! I leave this thread for a couple of months and it deteriorates to this? What kind of off the wall suggestions are these? And quips about land destructions spells in the 3cc range?

Ice Quake, Rain of Tears, etc. - Sinkhole is only acceptable because of its 2cc price. Anything above shouldn't even fall into considerations, budget or not. If you're on budget, atleast keep your spells effective. Remove the land destruction and run more discard.

Blue splash? Just for Standstill? We'd have to remake the deck completely. You can't just add that card, and not expect to reconsider every other card we're playing. On the other hand, this is exactly what the New and Developmental forum is for. If I had my guess you'll end up gravitating to some Ub Landstill variant, or something akin to Team America.

@ DalkonCledwin - Your deck (sorry to say) probably doesn't deserve discussion. I find nothing about it to be particularly noteworthy. That's not to say it will perform badly, the card choices are standard. But just including the most effective cards doesn't make for a well-tuned deck. I predict that your games will play just fine. But I don't see you winning tourneys with this either.

If you want to tune your deck, then give me more to remark on. Tell me: 1) Why a 2:2 split of edict and smother? 2) Why include 2x Jitte? And 3) Why include 2x Duress.

3) The last question you answered partially. And the answer was compelling enough for me. I agree that the extra bit of discard is needed, and the additional fact that it smoothes your curve is probably even more important a factor.

2) Why do you need Jitte? Tombstalker and Shade are just fine without. Bob could use it, Confidant's main purpose is to draw cards though. His ability to attack is icing on this cake. Specter seems the only real optimal equip. Too few excellent targets to equip to. I'd say either run removal, or run more creatures. Or just run Shriekmaw if you have balls and aren't worried about the possibility of extra life loss from Confidant.

1) When selecting your removal spells there is usually always a right answer. We don't have search or any way to sift for the correct card. So you're relying on chance to get you either that edict or that smother when it's the one you need. Test and find out which one is better, then run a full compliment of that.

The underlying question that you should be asking is what role you're assuming. Are you trying to play more aggro, or more control? If you're going the aggro route, cut confidant put in something like Negator and play Snuff Out over your current removal. If better control is what you're after (and I'd guess this is the case as you're actually running Confidant) then keep your removal count high and your card advantage up. Personally I'd play Dusk Urchin and Shriekmaw - and get rid of Jitte and probably Tombstalker (despite how good of a beater Tombstalker is).

Whew, that was alot about a deck that probably wasn't worth talking about :P

Maybe later I'll actually post about how cool Dark Meekstone is, like I had originally intended to.

DalkonCledwin

12-18-2008, 11:07 PM

**snip**
did you even test my deck before complaining about it?

Damnosus

12-18-2008, 11:12 PM

Yea I am with Dalkon Cledwin on this one-Galroth, it is cool to criticize, even when the criticism is pretty harsh, but don't comment if you are going to make it sound like it's a waste of your time.

That being said, I would like to hear DC's response to some of the questions that you pose.

DalkonCledwin

12-18-2008, 11:20 PM

If you want to tune your deck, then give me more to remark on. Tell me: 1) Why a 2:2 split of edict and smother? 2) Why include 2x Jitte? And 3) Why include 2x Duress.

Currently I am personally very satisfied with the way the deck is built as the deck is currently performing very nicely, both for me and for a friend of mine. I presented it to you to see what you all thought of it, I was not expecting someone to post saying that the deck is beneath them and then have that same person expect me to respond to their questions about the deck.

Now in answer to some of these questions, the main issue is that previously the Jitte's and Duresses would have been a 4 of removal of something else (probably very easily either Snuff Out, or Rend Flesh). However on the advice of a friend who was helping me design the deck I modified the list to what it is now, so that it is better suited to take advantage of the Confidant while still having a bit of a beater. As such the removal has a 2:2 split between Edict and Smother. However there is one other removal spell in the deck, the Jitte itself. Not to mention that the thoughtseizes and hymns can act as preemptive removal after a sort as well if need be.

The Jitte is run mainly to counteract the life loss from Confidant when I flip a Tombstalker, however it also serves as a removal spell, as well as a pump spell for when I wish to beat to the face with any given creature.

And the Duress serves to smooth out the mana curve, as well as act as a 5th & 6th thoughtseize.

Galroth

12-18-2008, 11:27 PM

DalkonCledwin

12-19-2008, 09:12 AM

@ Dalkon - I apologize if it came off as sounding harsh. Consider it as bluntly honest instead. Your deck is so close to what the standard for suicide black is that all of these choices have been discussed ad nauseum. Please list what you find unique, important and worthy of notice.

As to your question regarding testing your deck. The answer is no, I haven't tested your exact list. But I've tested your list with +1x Tombstalker, +1x Polluted Delta, +1x Duress, +1x Smother, -2x Jitte, & -2x Diabolic Edict. Basically lists so similar to yours that I feel more than competent to comment. Oh... and I used regular Swamps. Regardless of my experience with 'your' deck the questions and comments could stand alone and might be worth your time to consider. Believe me, I didn't post that string for just my entertainment.

I didn't realize that a list had to be unique, or important and worthy of notice to be posted on a forum in order to get advice on how to make it better or to ask for constructive criticism on whether it is a decent build or not... where does it list that in the forum rules?

There are significant differences between my list, and the list you tested, the most obvious difference is the inclusion of the Jitte. I would suggest before you criticize my deck further that you give it a few test runs to see what you think of the deck. Just because a list is similar to another, does not mean that it will play at all the same as another list.

As for your questions, I did answer them, have you taken the time to read my responses to them?

Bardo

12-19-2008, 09:31 AM

@ DalkonCledwin - Your deck (sorry to say) probably doesn't deserve discussion. I find nothing about it to be particularly noteworthy. That's not to say it will perform badly, the card choices are standard. But just including the most effective cards doesn't make for a well-tuned deck. I predict that your games will play just fine. But I don't see you winning tourneys with this either.
This is, in case you haven't noticed, an online discussion forum. It exists so people can talk about their Legacy deck ideas, etc. It is also not a place where anyone gets to decide what not to discuss, not even the Mod staff (assuming the topic is neither vile nor illegal).

If you have nothing to add, then don't. But then, you post a ton of discussion-worthy ideas. Make up your mind. - Bardo

DalkonCledwin

12-27-2008, 11:04 PM

How does Mono-Black deal with Affinity, or is it such a non-issue that we don't even bother with it? The reason I ask, is because I played an affinity today, and even after I managed to extirpate 8 of their lands, they were still able to stabilize for the win.

Illissius

12-27-2008, 11:13 PM

I don't know anything about anything, but perhaps killing their creatures rather than Extirpating their lands could result in better results.

DalkonCledwin

12-27-2008, 11:23 PM

I don't know anything about anything, but perhaps killing their creatures rather than Extirpating their lands could result in better results.

well, I was doing that as well, but I only have so many removal spells to deal with creatures... and I wasn't drawing enough of them. I wanted to cut off their resources as much as I wanted to deal with their creatures.

Illissius

12-27-2008, 11:30 PM

Minus howevermany Extirpate plus that many removal spells sure sounds like an idea.

Nihil Credo

12-28-2008, 08:58 AM

well, I was doing that as well, but I only have so many removal spells to deal with creatures... and I wasn't drawing enough of them. I wanted to cut off their resources as much as I wanted to deal with their creatures.
Aside from the general reliability of the "LD into Extirpate COMBO POWAR" plan, you should have considered its specific reliability against a deck that plays Æther Vial, Springleaf Drum, and free creatures.

Anyway, bring in 4 Needles against Affinity and think carefully before naming. Leyline of the Void or Engineered Plague can be brought in if you still have dead cards in the maindeck.

DalkonCledwin

12-28-2008, 11:51 AM

Aside from the general reliability of the "LD into Extirpate COMBO POWAR" plan, you should have considered its specific reliability against a deck that plays Æther Vial, Springleaf Drum, and free creatures.

Anyway, bring in 4 Needles against Affinity and think carefully before naming. Leyline of the Void or Engineered Plague can be brought in if you still have dead cards in the maindeck.

how are either Leyline of the Void or Engineered Plague in any way good against Affinity? You do realize "Artifact Creature" is not a creature type, right, and as far as I knew they didn't have any graveyard recursion, the closest I can imagine is that you are suggesting the Leylines as a way to prevent damage from Disciple of the Vault???

Otherwise the deck I played didn't run Aether Vial at least not that I saw. It did run Springleaf Drum though, but didn't have it on the field until several turns after I extirpated its lands. Still it was able to get several creatures into play before I was able to extirpate its stuff.

On a side note, I don't actually run Pithing Needle in my sideboard, and really don't have room for the card in my sideboard....

Nihil Credo

12-28-2008, 12:05 PM

how are either Leyline of the Void or Engineered Plague in any way good against Affinity? You do realize "Artifact Creature" is not a creature type, right, and as far as I knew they didn't have any graveyard recursion, the closest I can imagine is that you are suggesting the Leylines as a way to prevent damage from Disciple of the Vault???

Leyline of the Void prevents Modular as well as Disciple's ability from triggering. Both are a large part of what wins Affinity so many games.

Every single creature in Affinity has a creature type. Oracle is tech.

DalkonCledwin

12-28-2008, 12:27 PM

Leyline of the Void prevents Modular as well as Disciple's ability from triggering. Both are a large part of what wins Affinity so many games.

Every single creature in Affinity has a creature type. Oracle is tech.

Thanks for the tip on Leyline, I really appreciate that, I will use it in my next match against Affinity :D

yes, but there are so many different creature types in Affinity that Engineered Plague is all but useless against them. I mean the only creature I can actually imagining it having any impact against is the ravager itself.

Esper3k

12-28-2008, 03:32 PM

Thanks for the tip on Leyline, I really appreciate that, I will use it in my next match against Affinity :D

yes, but there are so many different creature types in Affinity that Engineered Plague is all but useless against them. I mean the only creature I can actually imagining it having any impact against is the ravager itself.

While EP might not be ideal to use against Affinity, if you already have it in your sideboard, it's not bad to board in.

EP set to Beast (hits Ravagers) or Cleric (hits Disciples) is pretty good.

I'd probably hit the Disciples first myself as if they're running Master of Etherium, Ravagers will survive a Plague.

Damnosus

12-28-2008, 07:30 PM

I have found Jitte to be pretty effective in this match as well-it seems like every time I land one and get it active, I win.

Extirpate targets: plating (if you can get them to discard it), MoE, Ravager, DoV. Everything else you should be able to deal with.

DalkonCledwin

12-28-2008, 09:04 PM

thanks guys, I will try all these suggestions next time I play affinity :D

rleader

12-29-2008, 01:56 AM

I've never played sui black compitively (unless you count a proto-red death deck back in 1995), but I've tried my hand at affinity:

The Agreed-Upon Legacy Affinity deck is something that nobody knows if it's any good as there's never been any really serious testing of it: it's like we just said, well, let's take the ext. version and slow it waaaaay the hell down, it just HAS to be better here because we put banned cards back in. But think of it this way, the deck has two combos that are actually opposed to each other: saccing artifacts to make bigger artifacts and having a bunch of artifacts to boost a piece of equipment/and now master. The only time those are AT ALL synergistic is if Disciple sticks, otherwise, the two combos completely cancel each other out. So be able to kill Disciple or mute it's ability. (both are covered above)

Bitterblossom crushes affinity if they're not expecting it with a plague of their own (although most are, because affinity players really wish they had a goblins deck so they sideboard for it even though they'll probably never play against one, just because they have it on their brain). I mock. But I speak from personal experience.

Encroach. No, it's not a good card, but here it's a day wrecker. Legacy Affinity players don't mulligan the way that Ext. Affinity players do (which is to say they mulligan more often), as we value cards over aggro speed, thinking we can get one combo or another. So a lot of bad hands are kept.

Raptor

01-01-2009, 01:15 PM

DalkonCledwin

01-03-2009, 08:50 AM

So in a deck with the Stalker, are the fetchland really THAT necessary, and with a tempo oriented deck, can cabal therapy take the place of thoughtseize without hurting the deck too much ?

I am currently running 4x Stalker in my suicide black deck, and honestly, I only have 1x Fetchland (a Bloodstained Mire) and I have absolutely no trouble getting Tombstalker out when I need him out. As for Cabal Therapy, no I don't think it really can take the place of thoughtseize, unless you absolutely have 100% knowledge of what is in your opponents hand when you play it (in otherwords you need to be playing Duress with it).

3duece

01-03-2009, 11:42 AM

I'm thinking about making a Suicide Black, but I have a budget of about 250-300$.

Currently I have these card :
4 x Duress,
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Hypnotic specter
3 x Nantuko Shade
3 x Umezawa's jitte
4 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Diabolic Edict
4 x Smother

So I'm thinking about a build, but I won't be able to get 4 x Wastedland, 4 x Fetch land, 4 x Thoughtseize and 4 x Sinkhole.

So in a deck with the Stalker, are the fetchland really THAT necessary, and with a tempo oriented deck, can cabal therapy take the place of thoughtseize without hurting the deck too much ?

4 wasteland $40-$45
4 bloodstained mire $55-$60
4 thoughtseize $60
4 beta sinkhole $120
max $285 (these are a high estimate, above motl and ebay prices)

Fetchlands aren't entirely necessary with tombstalker, but they will cut a turn or two off of him and allow you to play more than one more consistently. I play the full eight fetches and I wouldn't go without, especially since that lets you splash a color for the sideboard.

Raptor

01-03-2009, 02:08 PM

4 wasteland $40-$45
4 bloodstained mire $55-$60
4 thoughtseize $60
4 beta sinkhole $120
max $285 (these are a high estimate, above motl and ebay prices)

Fetchlands aren't entirely necessary with tombstalker, but they will cut a turn or two off of him and allow you to play more than one more consistently. I play the full eight fetches and I wouldn't go without, especially since that lets you splash a color for the sideboard.

Where I buy these cards, either at a local store or at STG, thoughtseize go for 20-25$ each :S
+ I will need to buy tombstalker, and some other cards... :S

By the way, could I ask what is motl ? :)
Thanks

3duece

01-03-2009, 05:45 PM

Absolutely. Motl stands for magic online trading league- www.magictraders.com. Lots of great sellers and traders with good references offering huge inventories of alpha through shards. Plus, they have a price guide for ever card ever printed showing a low, high and average that they go for on the site. Most people sell at or below ebay prices. 20-25 for a thoughtsieze is absolutely obscene.

DalkonCledwin

01-09-2009, 09:06 PM

I would like to introduce you all to... Phyrexian Negator's little brother... and possibly the card that will make Phyrexian Negator obsolete:

Nyxathid :1::b::b:
Creature - Horror (Rare)
When Nyxathid comes into play, choose an opponent.
Nyxathid has -1/-1 for each card in the chosen opponent's hand.
7/7

confirmed as a card in Conflux....

of course you will want to play some disruption before playing this card... but imagine the possibilities of the following opening hand:

Swamp, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Nixathid, Hymn to Tourach, with a swamp in the top 2 cards of the library.

strip them of 3 cards on the first turn, Play Nixathid as a 3/3, drop a second Hymn stripping them of 2 more cards... bringing Nyixathid up to a 5/5 and attack with him... assuming they haven't played any cards, which they probably won't want to do anymore as soon as you play Nixathid, as it basically says "Don't play anymore cards or I hit you harder" just like Taurean Mauler does... sure it isn't as powerful as a 5/5 that has trample... but it can get bigger with enough of a disruption package, and doesn't have that nasty side effect of killing off all of your cards when hit by burn or creatures.

3duece

01-09-2009, 10:25 PM

Raptor

01-09-2009, 11:12 PM

Dang, that's really interesting. Playing that card, I guess I would want to give up sinkhole for more discard, duress or maybe unmask. Just because the ld plan kind of encourages them to have a larger hand. Definitely better than ashenmoore gouger, I'll guess we'll see if this is finally a negator that stands up to goyf.

Interesting, I'm wondering if I would still be running the tombstalker, would it be worth it ?

But this seems a responce to force of will as : You want to counter me a spell other then me ? 2 more damage in your face.

Mordel

01-09-2009, 11:42 PM

Nyxathid can't be played on the first turn really and doesn't have any sort of evasion. Next.

DalkonCledwin

01-10-2009, 12:14 AM

Nyxathid can't be played on the first turn really and doesn't have any sort of evasion. Next.

does it really need evasion? Some of us have been running Ashenmoor Gouger in place of Phyrexian Negator... how does that exactly have Evasion? Anyways, why would you want to play it on the first turn? The card rewards you for playing it later in the game, especially after you have played a bit of disruption against their hand. I think this card is really really good.

3duece

01-10-2009, 01:08 AM

I think he's the first reason to play unmask in this deck since hatred was good. He basically tacks a life penalty onto anything your opponent does. And yes, I would still play tombstalker. I'm not going to say this guy is great until I actually get to play it, but I'm pretty excited about it. I also like that he punishes the hell out of dragon stompy and aggroloam.

DalkonCledwin

01-10-2009, 01:26 AM

I also like that he punishes the hell out of dragon stompy and aggroloam.

that is definitely an added bonus, isn't it :D This card may actually be a reason for me to buy conflux cards :D

Hummingbird TG

01-10-2009, 03:51 AM

My problem with the card is that your opponent can stockpile lands in hand... which Thoughtseize, Duress, and Unmask, happen to be unable to take. I'm tempted to play a discard effect that actually can discard lands, for this purpose. Blightning is tempting, but rapes your curve...Gerrard's Verdict maybe?

Citrus-God

01-10-2009, 04:08 AM

The other problem I have with this is the implication that this is only a good "late game" card. Seriously... that's so not Sui Black.

Sui Black has nothing but early game cards. This is why it's threat base is full of threats that are good early game and late game. This is why it runs disruption, so that it's threats can immediately come out and bash face while the opponent is disrupted by discard and LD while the opponent's game state looks awkward and weird. If you're planning on running this just to be a "late game" card, then you sir are building Sui Black badly. Suicide Black is a deck that tends to mulligan aggressively if it doesnt have a mix of disruption and threats. This card forces you to mulligan simply because it's a bad threat. If this were a Negator, it can come off a Ritual first turn and thrash the opponent as you follow up with a Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Wasteland and/or Thoughtseize next turn.

Tombstalker doesn't count if you run fetchlands; he actually comes into play an evasive and cheap 5/5 beast. The difference between Tombstalker and that card is that after a couple turns worth of disruption and fetchland cracking, you can actually play him and he will literally win the game for you. Nyxathid because it might not come into play as strong on Turn 3. What if you open with Thoughtseize, Sinkhole, Wasteland? I would much rather have Tombstalker, because when it comes out, Turn 3 is actually decent timing and doesnt have to force me to mulligan as much.

Mordel

01-10-2009, 04:15 AM

I play negator over gouger in most cases...so yeah...not sure what to say there.

Needless to say though: the new card requires conditions to be met before being played effectively, which smacks of fail. You folks can delude yourselves and play it like this card is completely awesome, but when everything is said and done in order for this card to be effective you will need to be getting lucky on second turns or making specific plays on third turns. Whereas if you are running a negator or gouger, you are paying for the body you get specifically with no bullshit specific conditions needing to be met.

As far as I am concerned sui needs to be fairly consistent if only in its cards doing exactly what they are supposed to do all the time, despite drawbacks.

Please avoid bringing up Tomb Stalker too because Tomb Stalker's conditions are notably easier to meet and he typically is not usually equated with a spot that negator or gouger typically fill as far as I know. Tomb Stalker also doesn't require a specific type of card(discard) to be played in order to come down earlier in the game.

Citrus-God

01-10-2009, 04:19 AM

Not to mention Tombstalker has evasion. Evasion is good for racing. Also, you can keep more LD oriented opening hands with Tombstalker.

Mordel

01-10-2009, 04:33 AM

Heh, hells yeah. I didn't even notice your reply that you clearly typed quicker than mine. Great minds think alike.

As far as I am concerned with sui black once you start peering into specifically mid to late game possibilities, you had might as well opt for a different archetype because early game is what sui is all about.

Turn one-Negator ideally or some other suicidal, but fat beater
Turn two-disrupt and swing
Turn three-disrupt and more pressure(TS p'raps?)
Turn four-???
Turn five-Profit

I remember wayyy back, paralax dementia/twisted experiment was part of the equation for me too, but in any event yeah. Aside from budget, I see absolutely no reason to run sui black over the two evolutions it has seen in the last few years unless you are looking for sheer speed and short-sighted impact. Once someone starts trying to figure out solutions for mid and late game, you had better start looking at ways to make your early game better or other decks like funkbrew or Eva Green.

I played sui religiously for a while and gave up on it quite a while ago, so maybe I am off on my analysis of the archetype's current role.

DalkonCledwin

01-13-2009, 08:07 PM

what is the general opinion here on the source of Null Rod when it comes to helping improve the Ad Nauseam Tendrils and Affinity match up for Sui Black and other black aggro decks?

technogeek5000

01-13-2009, 08:11 PM

DalkonCledwin

01-13-2009, 08:16 PM

umm, play discard instead. More effective that is versatile lol. You should be running 8-12 maindeck. I always was under the assumption that sui black was good against combo. Maybe another discard card that can double as control hate would be good for the board. Null rod is slow unless its paired with dark ritual

yes, Sui Black WAS good against combo... that is until Wizards decided to print Ad Nauseam. Now Combo can go off any damn time they please, despite our disruption simply by top decking the right card. So no, really Sui Black no longer has the upper hand against Combo anymore, at least not Combo that is running Ad Nauseam.

Even if we could run discard that is instant speed, and capable of stoping their combo before it can go off, we will get chanted if they get wind of our discard being instant speed, thus allowing them to go off.

As such I think that our only real options to deal with Discard are either of the following two:

Null Rod - which also stops affinity
or Chalice of the Void - set at ZERO and possibly ONE - but that doesn't really do much against any other deck that we could be facing except ourselves and possibly burn.

Eldariel

01-13-2009, 08:36 PM

yes, Sui Black WAS good against combo... that is until Wizards decided to print Ad Nauseam. Now Combo can go off any damn time they please, despite our disruption simply by top decking the right card. So no, really Sui Black no longer has the upper hand against Combo anymore, at least not Combo that is running Ad Nauseam.

The problem is much older: Before Ad Nauseam, combo was simply topdecking Ill-Gotten Gains or a tutor instead. Either way the effect was the same; win without handcards off the top. The universal adoption of Brainstorm further adds to the issue as they can simply hide their win on the top, play out manasources and then win regardless of what you do. So hitting their mana while beating them to all hell is really the best way to go.

DalkonCledwin

01-13-2009, 08:40 PM

The problem is much older: Before Ad Nauseam, combo was simply topdecking Ill-Gotten Gains or a tutor instead. Either way the effect was the same; win without handcards off the top. The universal adoption of Brainstorm further adds to the issue as they can simply hide their win on the top, play out manasources and then win regardless of what you do. So hitting their mana while beating them to all hell is really the best way to go.

I completely agree, which is why I suggest either Chalice of the Void, or Null Rod as an addition to the Sinkholes we already run to be the main disruption to run against a Storm deck of the modern environment.

DalkonCledwin

01-15-2009, 10:05 AM

I have been asked to ask if people here on the source think that the following deck "sucks"

personally I don't care whether you guys think it sucks or not, considering I think the deck is good enough to see play. I just do not think it can really qualify as true Mono Black Aggro of any sort. It is really more as Arsenal said on Salvation, a hybrid between Mono Black Aggro and Mono Black Control, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but really not something that I would want to play... so I was wondering what people here thought of it?

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15757

Xavi Frances' Mono Black Congro deck

// creature [12]
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker

// instant [8]
4 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Smother

// sorcery [15]
3 Damnation
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Thoughtseize

// enchantment [4]
4 Phyrexian Arena

// land [21]
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Lake of the Dead
2 Polluted Delta
9 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard:
2 Withered Wretch
4 Extirpate
1 Cranial Extraction
4 Engineered Plague
2 Gloom
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt

Hummingbird TG

01-15-2009, 10:37 AM

I don't understand Damnation in the deck. Whose board does it want to sweep? (And which deck even plays many creatures in Legacy?) Furthermore, on 21 lands (4 of which Wastelands, but 4 more Dark Rituals)?

Also, Lake of the Dead just seems gimmicky, it's so vulnerable to Wasteland. Is it a right choice?

Also the split of Duresses and Thoughtseize seems odd, running only 4 removal spells. And why no Snuff Out?

In the Sideboard, Gloom seems weird. I don't think it's relevant in any matchups (unless its purpose is to make StP cost 3W?)...

Arsenal

01-15-2009, 10:44 AM

That decklist is dated; early 2008 I believe? And look and what the opther decks in the top 8 looked like. Definitely not representative of what you'd typically encounter at a 20+ person tourney now.

DalkonCledwin

01-15-2009, 11:25 AM

Hummingbird TG

01-15-2009, 12:38 PM

another concern I have about this deck is it has 6 sets of cards main decked, and 8 total (sideboard included) for a grand total of 19 cards that can be affected by either Pithing Needle, Trickbind, or Stifle to a detrimental effect, which is if you ask me way too many to be a good thing....

Nobody's going to Stifle or Trickbind a Nantuko Shade, and hardly anyone Piths Fetches anymore. And do people even pith or Stifle Volrath's Stronghold? Also, I can only count 5 types of cards Maindecked that can be Pithed. Mana Abilities aren't affected by Stifle or Needle (Lake of the Dead), right? (though that is, confessedly, weak to Wasteland)

@Arsenal:

Dated as it is, I'm still keen on the Phyrexian Arenas, though, they look rather interesting to play around with...

DalkonCledwin

01-15-2009, 05:28 PM

Nobody's going to Stifle or Trickbind a Nantuko Shade, and hardly anyone Piths Fetches anymore. And do people even pith or Stifle Volrath's Stronghold? Also, I can only count 5 types of cards Maindecked that can be Pithed. Mana Abilities aren't affected by Stifle or Needle (Lake of the Dead), right? (though that is, confessedly, weak to Wasteland)

oh... yeah, you are correct... lake of the dead doesn't count, though it can be stifled and trickbinded if I am not mistaken.... And you are quite correct, no one stifles a nantuko but they have been known to pith it. And I have had Fetches hit by Stifles / Trickbinds from time to time, though never pithed, its just to unreliable. And I would imagine that people would pith Volrath's Stronghold if it became a big enough nuisance.

The point I was trying to make wasn't would people do these things, the point was "COULD" they do these things....

Mordel

01-15-2009, 08:28 PM

The point I was trying to make wasn't would people do these things, the point was "COULD" they do these things...

Yes?

I don't get it: outdated deck is outdated and has some questionable card choices in light of more recent metagame developments...next?

DalkonCledwin

01-15-2009, 08:32 PM

Yes?

I don't get it: outdated deck is outdated and has some questionable card choices in light of more recent metagame developments...next?

I was trying to prove a point to a friend... that the deck and its card choices were out dated, and not good in a suicide black deck. He unfortunately didn't believe what I had to say, and now isn't talking to me for various reasons. So yeah, that ends that issue.

Lcpdenijs

01-16-2009, 05:42 AM

I wonder how this new Conflux card will affect Suicide Black.

Nyxathid

Creature - Horror
As Nyxathid comes into play, choose an opponent.
Nyxathid gets -1/-1 for each card in the chosen player's hand.
7/7

Captain Hammer

01-16-2009, 09:13 AM

Thats what we've been talking about all of the past page.

I don't know, unlike many people here, I personally think Nyxathid has potential as a 3x or 2x of. Yes, it's a threat that you play after your slew of disruption, rather than before. But that's the same with Goyf and Tombstalker as well. Spending the first few turns disrupting the crap out of your opponent is not a bad way to spend the first few turns. And then it's usually a 3cc 5/5, which isn't horrible.

Yes, most are saying this won't see play. But lots of people thought Tombstalker and Goyf wouldn't make the cut in legacy.

Even the first several days after release, plenty were arguing that Goyf was inferior to Werebear even in threshold and no one was even considering the card anywhere else (Goyfs were worth about $.50 cents a piece on ebay back then, I should know, I picked a few playsets only to sell them the second they jumped up to $12 a piece).

The only deck that saw the potential in Tombstalker as soon as it was spoiled was Pox. And then it wasn't for several months, yes MONTHS before anyone else saw the card as worth running.

Now I'm not saying this card is anywhere remotely as good. It's not. But that just makes the potential that it does have harder to see.

GGoober

01-16-2009, 01:00 PM

I think nyxathid will find a home in Suicide. It's too good to pass. On paper, he seems that he's situational, but consider the 8-12 discard effects in Suicide Black, he will at least be a 4/4 or 5/5. Now, consider the matchups extending to mid-game, how often do you see players with more than 5 cards in hand with the exception of Landstill. Even MUC gets low on cards until they FoF.

Playing against other decks such as Goblins, Nyxathid is potentially huge. If the deck includes MD Extirpate or Cabal Therapy (which are bad in Suicide black I know, but if we find a more hand-disruptive shell), this is probably the next best creature in terms of mana-cost next to Goyf. Goyf is huge and situationally better, but both Nyxathid and Goyf are situational creatures, where Goyf experiences more hate with the increased popularity of Relic of Progenitus and many other cards.

I would be getting a set of these when it comes out, in case the Goyf/tombstalker mistake happens again.