[Deck] Suicide Black

[durin86]

@deck above me: too much equipment for only 14 creatures.

This is my Black Suicide List

http://www.deckcheck.net/stats.php?id=55915&saved=true

creature [15]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker

instant [8]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother

sorcery [14]
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Thoughtseize

artifact [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte

land [21]
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

sideboard [15]
4 Engineered Plague
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Powder Keg

Any suggestions to improve the deck?

[jazzykat]

Fetches may or may not help you...

Check out Eva Green. If you have bayous and fetches there is really no reason not to run Tarmogoyf...he is that good.

[Valtrix]

Indeed. Also...I think -1 duress/+1 thoughtseize would be good, because as it stands you have very little answers to creatures (goyf). Other than that I guess it's pretty standard...

Really, I'm just not a fan of suicide black at all because Eva green feels better with goyf and artifact/enchantment removal.

[durin86]

The Point ist: I dont have Duals and Fetchies and i don't want to buy them so i want to keep ist mono b ;)

[sauce]

The Point ist: I dont have Duals and Fetchies and i don't want to buy them so i want to keep ist mono b ;)

dystopia is good in the sb against all things thresh/rock. you lose a few life points but they cant play dudes/lose dudes.

[Lcpdenijs]

@deck above me: too much equipment for only 14 creatures.


Good advice on the artifacts, i will stick to just 2 or perhaps 3.

With my mono black suicide i skipped the LD part and instead focussed more on the discard. This helps Nyxathid more as well. Wondering how this works out.

p.s. @ Durin86. I noticed you posted your deck on deckcheck.net, do you need to be a member for that?

[durin86]

Good advice on the artifacts, i will stick to just 2 or perhaps 3.

With my mono black suicide i skipped the LD part and instead focussed more on the discard. This helps Nyxathid more as well. Wondering how this works out.

p.s. @ Durin86. I noticed you posted your deck on deckcheck.net, do you need to be a member for that?

No you don't have to be a member, you can submit decks here:
http://www.deckcheck.net/stats.php and don't forget to save the deck ;)

[overseer1234]

The Point ist: I dont have Duals and Fetchies and i don't want to buy them so i want to keep ist mono b ;)

Maybe this is could work for you.

Dark Meekstone:

Artifact's:
4x Meekstone (:cool: shuts down a lot of ugly stuff)
3x Umezawa’s Jitte (make's our little buggers become really big pest's that untap under stone and compensate's the lifeloss from bitterblossom, thoughtseize and dark confidant)

Creature's:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
2x Yixlid Jailer
4x Bitterblossom
Every creature can hit and untap under meekstone, and shade's particularly good when meekstone's out (since he beats for way more than 2 and untap's).

Yes Bitterblossom count's as creature.

The yailers are experimental but for now they're not doing to bad.

Instant's:
4x Dark Ritual (Bust you're stuff on the field in a really unfair tempo)
4x Smother (get's rid of whatever that can beat more than once under meekstone, and of most thing's that only need to attack once (like realy big terravore's or opposing shade's/serra avengers).

Manabase:
15x Swamp
4x Wasteland
Simple, cheap and stifle proof, what do you want more.


Sorcery's:
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
Staple's if you ask me...

Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Cabal Therapy

Sideboard hasn't been tested enough, but it looks good on paper.

Anyway the needle is really necessary since Deed really wreck's the deck, and Engineered Explosives isn't that much better for us...

Also maybe you want to include more removal in the board against other agro decks that can attack under you stone.

hope you like it :)

[durin86]

Interesting Deck. I'll test it, but 2 Jailers Maindeck? What for?

[overseer1234]

Interesting Deck. I'll test it, but 2 Jailers Maindeck? What for?

Because 21 land is to much and I don't like 1-off's :D

+ Ichorid has never been a good matchup for this deck so some main deck stuff might steal a win or 2.

Feel free to switch some numbers, i think playing 20 land would be better, but I don't really know what to put in that last slot..

Maybe some extra equipment since most of the men I play aren't really impressive on their own (short of shade...) but that might raise the power of the creature above 2 and makes our meekstone less effective (you could just re-equip it after combat, but that also consumes 2 mana every turn...)

Or even some more removal (edict, or ghastly demise+fetch, terror,...)


Anyway I hope you like the list :)

[MSC]

I recommend Dauthi Slayer over Jailer, cause he gets by creatures, your opponent plays for blocking.

If you wish for additional Equipments try Memory Mask, which gets you additional Card-Draw...

[Esper3k]

Is Stromgald Crusader not popular anymore?

It would seem to work well with the Meekstone idea as he could hop over and pump?

[durin86]

But Crusader AND Nantuko Shade need too much mana to be good, and the pump-ability of crusader sucks. That's my opinion on crusader :)

This is the latest version of my suicide black:

http://www.deckcheck.net/stats.php?id=56385&saved=true

-1 Duress
-1 Swamp
+ 2 Diabolic Edict

to improve the aggro MU

[Esper3k]

I don't think anyone disagrees that on its own, the Shade's pump ability is better than the Crusader's.

Just giving another option for people messing around with the deck since Crusader will hop over Goyfs as well as dodge StP.

I figure since you're playing 4x Meekstone, you'd want to try and abuse it as much as you could.

[Darkenslight]

What about Bone Saw or Shuko for an extra power boost? Cheap and easy to equip (or even Bonesplitter).

[Lcpdenijs]

What about Bone Saw or Shuko for an extra power boost? Cheap and easy to equip (or even Bonesplitter).

Ehm, no offense, but I don't think these cards really offer anything extra in this deck. (let alone other decks, since there are way better cards for these)

If you want to use some equipment, use Jitte of Sword of Fire & Ice.

[DragoFireheart]

Does anyone play this deck anymore?

[MTG-Fan]

Does anyone play this deck anymore?

Every other match I play on MWS seems to be some variation of this deck.

[pandaman]

Every other match I play on MWS seems to be some variation of this deck.

Yeah, heaps of people are playing Suicide or Mono Black Aggro. It's reasonably cheap to build and has reasonably good game against some of the top decks.

Here's my list, still work in progress:

Maindeck (60)

Land (21)

15 Swamp
2 Tomb of Urami
4 Wasteland

Creature (15)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker

Instant (9)

4 Dark Ritual
3 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict

Sorcery (12)

2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

Artifact (3)

Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)

3 Powder Keg
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia

The only things that are different in my list are Tomb of Urami and Cabal Therapy. Tomb gives you another Tombstalker but with severe drawback and Cabal Therapy, while not as good as Duress, allows you to sacrifice your own Dark Confidant if you are low on life and in danger of dying.

I must admit Tomb of Urami isn't that good, and after a bit more testing it will probably get the boot from the deck. But Cabal Therapy has proved positive, as once you've buried your opponent under card advantage you can sacrifice Dark Confidant and eliminate the danger of flipping Tombstalker.

The last thought is that maybe 3 Umezawa's Jitte is a bit much for the deck. More testing necessary.

[keys]

Gargoyle Castle is better than Tomb of Urami, though I would probably run neither.

[miko]

you can play senseis top. just to avoid too much damage by confidant and improve your draw quality

[Aleksandr]

Sideboard hasn't been tested enough, but it looks good on paper.



Perish?

[pandaman]

Gargoyle Castle is better than Tomb of Urami, though I would probably run neither.

Yes, further testing has proved that Tomb of Urami is really bad here. Chopped!

@ Aleksandr - In my opinion, in the sideboard Dystopia > Perish in most cases. If you play Dystopia they can't slow-roll their creatures against you because it hangs around, and if you have Jitte active it can hang around for a long time! Also, Dystopia has more utility because it hits white creatures as well. My testing of both has me liking Dystopia for these reason.

[overseer1234]

Perish?

I don't think tyou need it... meekstone keeps the big creqture's at bay (chump them if you need to) and smother take's care of every other big thing short of akroma and stuf....

I now play the deck whith 20 land and kicked the yailers (Ichorid is somthing you'll have to live with) and play a 4th jitte (you need it whith all the lifeloss) and I'm trying out some of the jump/pump knights, since first strike comes in handy against goblin, and flying isgood evasion is good overall.

If you don't like to invest this much mana then maybe black knight, carnophage, or daughty slayer are ;ore suitable.

[enemyofarsenic]

Oona's prowler seems to be decent here. It is also a tombstalker enabler if you can afford discarding some of your cards.

[pandaman]

I now play the deck whith 20 land and kicked the yailers (Ichorid is somthing you'll have to live with) and play a 4th jitte (you need it whith all the lifeloss) and I'm trying out some of the jump/pump knights, since first strike comes in handy against goblin, and flying isgood evasion is good overall.

If you don't like to invest this much mana then maybe black knight, carnophage, or daughty slayer are ;ore suitable.

Let us know how the 4th Jitte is working out for you? And which pump knight have you found the best? Ebon Hand is first strike, Stromgald Crusader is flying and Stillmoon Cavalier is flying, right? I would be leaning towards Stillmoon Cavalier because of the additional protection, but which are you finding to be the better 2 drop option?

[overseer1234]

Let us know how the 4th Jitte is working out for you? And which pump knight have you found the best? Ebon Hand is first strike, Stromgald Crusader is flying and Stillmoon Cavalier is flying, right? I would be leaning towards Stillmoon Cavalier because of the additional protection, but which are you finding to be the better 2 drop option?

Well that depends,

If you expect a lot of big creature decks then de jumpknight is the way to go since they'll have trouble blocking it.

If the meta is more weeny based the first strike knight is your thing because it doesn't die while blocking/being blocked (goblins hate first strike :D).

Stillmoon Cavalier is pretty solid but sometime's the 1 extra mana is a problem but an extra land or 2 should take care of it. This also make's EE for 2 less painful, and blocking a tombstalker whitout losing your knight is deffinitly a plus.

The 4th jitte is solid, whith this much weeny's you'll never have trouble finding one to equip, and you REALLY don't want to see an ective jitte on your opponent's side of the table so making it double up as jitte remover is rellevant.

[pandaman]

Thanks for the rundown :cool: Keep us updated on your results with the deck!

[overseer1234]

No problem:

Some obvious notifications regarding the matchup's:

Agro: our own damage can severly hurt us, but jitte and smother should keep you on top, use some creativity with EPlague and you should be fine.

Midrange (rock, loam): Deed and EE are a real pest, board in P.Needle for this. Meekstone keeps down annything to big, and smother the rest. Use jitte to keep your life total above 20. keep an eye out for devatating dreams, these decks really hurt us.

Controll: Did suicide ever have problems with this archtype? after boarding bring in the needle's and cabal therapy. Watch out for CB/SDT

Combo: thoughtseize, hymn, specter... yeah you should be good, bring in therapy's for G2

Agro/controll (thresh/maethooks): keep an eye out for EE, other then that you should be fine if you can play around the counters, and use meekstone to keep their creature's down. (watch out for meathooks alpha strike). Again, watch out for CB/SDT....

Burn/Sligh: your only hope is to get jitte active in time and hymn away some stuff... Lavamancer eats your deck

Ichorid: Just hope you dodge them in the pairings...

[pandaman]

I don't know if the Ichorid matchup being as bad as you say. Although I do think it's still reasonably bad. In the first game if you can catch them on the right hand and can use your pinpoint discard to make them ditch their discard enablers you can sometimes sneak away with a win, though not often. Postboard you can take out some of the discard and bring in Leyline, Engineered Plague and Powder Keg (in my board) you can actually make a real go of it. That's more than 8 enchantments/artifacts that hurt versus usually not that many enchantment destruction/bounce cards.

It's definitely not the worst matchup, I think that honor goes to Burn. Although with your deck having 4 Jitte you might have a chance to get it up and running most of the time. Would you mulligan to it?

And one more question - is returning Ichorid in your upkeep an activated ability? If so maybe Pithing Needle could come in too?

Finally, what do you think of the Elf Combo matchup? I think it's in their favour preboard (although if you use Wasteland and make them discard mana elves you have a chance) but postboard I think it swings back to us, with Engineered Plague and in my board Dystopia and Powder Keg coming in. You could also Pithing Needle Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinal or Wirewood Symbiote for good effect.

[overseer1234]

I don't know if the Ichorid matchup being as bad as you say. Although I do think it's still reasonably bad. In the first game if you can catch them on the right hand and can use your pinpoint discard to make them ditch their discard enablers you can sometimes sneak away with a win, though not often. Postboard you can take out some of the discard and bring in Leyline, Engineered Plague and Powder Keg (in my board) you can actually make a real go of it. That's more than 8 enchantments/artifacts that hurt versus usually not that many enchantment destruction/bounce cards. I'll put is more like this: your disruption usually helps them more than annything else, short of getting extremely lucky with hymn and specter (or the occasional thoughtseize). If you get jitte+blossom you should have a good chance at winning, usually i even throw a counter on my own token.... (again, jitte make's the difference). G2 depends on the amount of sideboard slots you dedicate to it, but I think EE, Deed and CB/SDT should worry you more then ichorid....


It's definitely not the worst matchup, I think that honor goes to Burn. Although with your deck having 4 Jitte you might have a chance to get it up and running most of the time. Would you mulligan to it? it depends... if you start with specters and hymn's and rituals in your hand then I would keep it. other then that just go for the jitte (again play 4 of those)


And one more question - is returning Ichorid in your upkeep an activated ability? If so maybe Pithing Needle could come in too? Nope, it's triggered, so needle has no effect.


Finally, what do you think of the Elf Combo matchup? I think it's in their favour preboard (although if you use Wasteland and make them discard mana elves you have a chance) but postboard I think it swings back to us, with Engineered Plague and in my board Dystopia and Powder Keg coming in. You could also Pithing Needle Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinal or Wirewood Symbiote for good effect.
You have discard, removal and jitte... keep them of theY'r combo plan whith discard and when they go for the backhup plan you nuke the lords...

Post board gets better because of plague obviously since the only thing you dont want in your main deck is the meekstone...

[lordofthepit]

In what metagames would you play Suicide Black over Eva Green?

In theory, I suppose staying mono-black can help against non-basic hate, but I think you can't really justify that if you're losing out on Tarmogoyfs, Grips/Seals, Chokes, etc., as well as the ability to fuel Tombstalker with fetchlands.

[Elfrago]

You can still play Fetchlands in monoblack. In fact, if you're playing Stalker, you should play fetchlands too.

[overseer1234]

In what metagames would you play Suicide Black over Eva Green?

In theory, I suppose staying mono-black can help against non-basic hate, but I think you can't really justify that if you're losing out on Tarmogoyfs, Grips/Seals, Chokes, etc., as well as the ability to fuel Tombstalker with fetchlands.

Well EVA Green is a tempo deck and just try's to power out fast cheap disruption, and hope's the undercosted fat finishes the game before the opponent recovvers.

You could play it mono black by kicking goyf, seal and bayou and just replace them with Ashenmoor Gouger/Phyrexian Negator/Wasp Lancer, Jitte and basic swamps.

I used to play it like that (before I got my goyf's and bayou's) and usually won against eva green because they have a lot more dead cards like wasteland and snuff out (we can kill bayou's and goyf's) and the main deck jitte give's you and edge G1

G2 gets a bit worse but since u usually win G1 (we can do T1 ritual+gouger, they can't) you only need to win 1 more game and you still have less dead cards then they do.




This version of suicide black that we are discussing:
Dark Meekstone

4x Meekstone
4x Umezawa’s Jitte

4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Bitterblossom (yeah this counts as creature)

4x Dark Ritual
4x Smother

16x Swamp
4x Wasteland

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize


works in a totaly different way, and is more controll oriented.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I had always wanted to make a suicide B/R deck with Avatars, like:

4 Ashenmoor Gouger
3 Avatar of Discord
3 Tombstalker
2 Ashenmoor Liege
3 Demigod of Revenge
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
etc

Ritual out gouger or discord...bob.. Discord throws lots of cards away feeding tombstalker. I was also gonna play 6 fetch, too. Maybe even spinning darkness or fireblast as finishers, otherwise snuff out and go even more suicidal lol. I was almost even thinking throwing in 2 Phyrexian Arenas to just draw like a mad man.

This would be a true suicide rush, and the key would be "big creatures with evasion", like almost able to outcompete reanimator & faeries in the air :P

Would this make any sense or is this FAIL waiting to happen? lol

[DragoFireheart]

Stillmoon Cavalier is house against non-red decks. Can fly over Goyfs, can chump block quite a few creatures like a champ, is immune to lots of removal.

I see this decks largest problem is random-red jank, Burn, and fast combo decks.

[Melwis]

What makes Bitterblossom worth playing in Suicide Black? To me it seems the card is just way to slow to be worth the slots. I see some people are including 4 Meekstone in their list to make the deck more control oriented, is this the way to go with SB?

Also, what do you think of including 2-4 Stinkweed Imp in the list? It owns aggro-control decks, has dredge which is nice synergy with Tombstalker and flies which is awesome in a deck that runs 3-4 Jitte. The only thing that really stops it is StP and/or PtE but we run discard for a reason don't we? Besides, even if Imp does get removed that means your opponent is ignoring your other creatures which should more likely be in our favor.

[sauce]

What makes Bitterblossom worth playing in Suicide Black? To me it seems the card is just way to slow to be worth the slots. I see some people are including 4 Meekstone in their list to make the deck more control oriented, is this the way to go with SB?

Also, what do you think of including 2-4 Stinkweed Imp in the list? It owns aggro-control decks, has dredge which is nice synergy with Tombstalker and flies which is awesome in a deck that runs 3-4 Jitte. The only thing that really stops it is StP and/or PtE but we run discard for a reason don't we? Besides, even if Imp does get removed that means your opponent is ignoring your other creatures which should more likely be in our favor.

why not just play bone shredder, it dose something the turn it comes into play (ie - kills goyf) and then if you have no use for it and don't want to pay echo, it can feed your tombstalker.

[Melwis]

why not just play bone shredder, it dose something the turn it comes into play (ie - kills goyf) and then if you have no use for it and don't want to pay echo, it can feed your tombstalker.

I'm sure there are certain situations the "nonartifact, nonblack" becomes a problem, at the top of my head Tombstalker, Nought (yes he will still do 10 damage if you block with Imp but atleast he dies). Also, the Echo is not nice. With Imp you get a 1/2 with flying out that you can activate Jitte on the next turn, not possible with Shredder. And Shredder is not able to feed Tombstalker nearly as much as Imp.

More thoughts on running Stinkweed Imp in this deck?

[Melwis]

Some thoughts regarding this deck in general:

Is it worth trying to make the deck able to cast more then 1 Tombstalker each game? With 4 Tombstalker alongside 4 Confidant and the 8 fetchlands you'll want it just seems this deck becomes too suicidal since most lists want to run 4 Thoughtseize aswell...

How good is Hypnotic Specter really? In the early game it depends on Dark Ritual and when you have mana enough to cast it it's disruption won't effect your opponents that much since they will most likely have a small hand size and be able to cast the most important cards in it anyway before Specter swings. When your opponent is in topdeck mode all it really does is make your opponents instants become sorcery speed.

Most decks I see is only running 4 creature removal spells. I would argue running atleast 6 would make the deck improve overall. Perhaps the deck would be able to cut back on the Thoughtseize count then aswell.

If the answer to my first question in this post is yes (that we should devote the deck to be able to cast Tombstalker multiple times) then I see no reason why we shouldn't include Sensei's Divining Top in the list. The synergy with fetches and Confidant is good enough to include atleast 2-3 of it, maybe even 4. However Top is useless if you already have one out so I can see 4 being to many for a deck that doesn't actually rely on it like CounterTop.

Last but not least I really would like to hear more opinions on Stinkweed Imp in the deck. Serving as a sort of creature removal, fuel for Tombstalker and being able to carry Jitte it just seems like it deserves some slots.

[LegacyDan]

Some thoughts regarding this deck in general:

Is it worth trying to make the deck able to cast more then 1 Tombstalker each game? With 4 Tombstalker alongside 4 Confidant and the 8 fetchlands you'll want it just seems this deck becomes too suicidal since most lists want to run 4 Thoughtseize aswell...

How good is Hypnotic Specter really? In the early game it depends on Dark Ritual and when you have mana enough to cast it it's disruption won't effect your opponents that much since they will most likely have a small hand size and be able to cast the most important cards in it anyway before Specter swings. When your opponent is in topdeck mode all it really does is make your opponents instants become sorcery speed.

Most decks I see is only running 4 creature removal spells. I would argue running atleast 6 would make the deck improve overall. Perhaps the deck would be able to cut back on the Thoughtseize count then aswell.

If the answer to my first question in this post is yes (that we should devote the deck to be able to cast Tombstalker multiple times) then I see no reason why we shouldn't include Sensei's Divining Top in the list. The synergy with fetches and Confidant is good enough to include atleast 2-3 of it, maybe even 4. However Top is useless if you already have one out so I can see 4 being to many for a deck that doesn't actually rely on it like CounterTop.

Last but not least I really would like to hear more opinions on Stinkweed Imp in the deck. Serving as a sort of creature removal, fuel for Tombstalker and being able to carry Jitte it just seems like it deserves some slots.

Hm... Its beginning to sound to me like the deck you are building in m your mind will be kinda dependent on Tombstalker.

[Melwis]

Hm... Its beginning to sound to me like the deck you are building in m your mind will be kinda dependent on Tombstalker.

Well I was just asking questions, haven't decided how my build will look like yet. But I do think that deciding wether Suicide Black should focus on getting Tombstalker(s) out asap or not is a very important decision. I have a feeling that in a list running 4 Confidant the deck might become too suicidal with 4 Tombstalker + 4 Thoughtseize + fetchlands and I do not know if the risk is worth it, hence my questions regarding this decision.

If we come to the conclusion that running 4 Tombstalker is the right choice then there is ways to remove the suicidal part, the questions is if they are worth it. These are:

- Adding Sensei's Diving Top. How many?

- Running with more then 4 creature removal spells (Stinkweed Imp should count as this imo) to switch Thoughtseize for Duress.

- Removing Confidant. What would take it's place? Can cards like Sign in Blood, Night's Whisper or Phyrexian Arena take Confidants place as SB's card drawing engines?

- Upping the Jitte count. Doing this would also mean we need to find space for more creatures aswell. I think a minimum of 16 creatures should be included if we are to run 4 Jitte but even then I think 3 Jitte is a better count overall.

What do you think?

[Tea]

I would run either 4 sensei's divining top or 0 dark confidant.

[Roman Candle]

I have a feeling that in a list running 4 Confidant the deck might become too suicidal with 4 Tombstalker + 4 Thoughtseize + fetchlands and I do not know if the risk is worth it, hence my questions regarding this decision.

The reason you shouldn't run Confidant has nothing to do with the fact that its too suicidal. The reason you shouldn't run Dark Confidant in SuiBlack is that its an awful card for an aggro deck.

[Melwis]

The reason you shouldn't run Confidant has nothing to do with the fact that its too suicidal. The reason you shouldn't run Dark Confidant in SuiBlack is that its an awful card for an aggro deck.

I don't agree with this. Dark Confidant, while only a 2/1 beater, is awesome in this deck because he needs to be dealt with by your opponent. If he isn't, the card advantage you get just wins you the game most of the time. However, if you haven't been able to remove your opponents creature removal you can bet Confidant will soak it up which clears the way for your other beats. And the fact that he can swing for 2 does matter aswell.

For the records i'm now playtesting with the current list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
10 [PT] Swamp (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [U] Hypnotic Specter
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [FNM] Smother
3 [BD] Diabolic Edict
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)

The funniest thing about it is that I now realise how broken Sinkhole is in this deck. Oviously it + Wasteland wins games on it's own but even if your opponent finds lands it keeps them from playing to many (or any) of their spells keeping your discard spells (Hypnotic included) useful not only in the first few turns.

As you can see the focus is not Tombstalker. With 3 in the list I feel more secure when I play Confidant and as you can see I also use 3 Sensei's Diving Top. I think 3 Tombstalkers is a good number even if you skip the suicidal part because it's not something you want in your starting hand (you really don't want to see 2) and I don't think this list can cast more then 1 reliably (even if this deck survives long enough to get enough cards in the graveyard to cast 2 I doubt you will win anyway because that will be close to lategame).

Jitte is not in the list anymore. It's just to slow. Besides, your creatures are good enough to end the game on their own. Basically, you disrupt your opponents hand and/or manabase and then play a beat and hope to win. If you get creatures in the way you have 6 removal spells to help you.

Questions regarding the list:

Diabolic Edict vs Smother? Should one become a 4-of and the other reduced to 2?

8 discard + 6 creature removal spells vs 10 discard + 4 creature removal? Thinking about adding 2 Duress because that first turn discard spell is important. Also the list could use a few more 1 CMC cards.

[coraz86]

I ran Eva Green in a tournament on Saturday, and I found that sets of Hymn, Thoughtseize, and Hyppie were plenty. Conversely, I often found myself wanting to kill my opponent's dudes and not being able to. I'd keep the 8/6 ratio if I were you.

I also would cut something for the fourth Tombstalker, as I often found myself wanting for fat (and my deck had a set of Goyfs, which your list does not). Probably the third Top; I had two and I did fine.

Also, is there a reason you're not running free removal like Snuff Out and Contagion? It's nice being able to tap out on your turn to make dudes or Sinkhole or something, and still be able to react on your opponent's turn to whatever they're doing.

[Melwis]

I ran Eva Green in a tournament on Saturday, and I found that sets of Hymn, Thoughtseize, and Hyppie were plenty. Conversely, I often found myself wanting to kill my opponent's dudes and not being able to. I'd keep the 8/6 ratio if I were you.

I really would like to get more 1 CMC cards in the list tough. What about Funeral Charm? It's a really versatile card, perhaps it would be better instead of Duress?

What do you think about Diabolic Edict vs Smother? Is a 3/3 split good or do you suggest one over the other?


I also would cut something for the fourth Tombstalker, as I often found myself wanting for fat (and my deck had a set of Goyfs, which your list does not). Probably the third Top; I had two and I did fine.

Maybe. I'll keep it the count at 3 for now but if the problem arise i'll give it another thought.


Also, is there a reason you're not running free removal like Snuff Out and Contagion? It's nice being able to tap out on your turn to make dudes or Sinkhole or something, and still be able to react on your opponent's turn to whatever they're doing.

I really don't like Snuff Out for not being able to target black creatures. Also it costs 4 life... Seriously, with 4 Confidant, 4 Tombstalker, 4 Thoughtseize, fetchlands AND Snuff Out you just have to kill yourself too often.

Contagion is not MD material (and I don't play with SB). I guess it's good versus Goblins for example but against most decks it won't be able to kill anything really.

[Roman Candle]

I don't agree with this. Dark Confidant, while only a 2/1 beater, is awesome in this deck because he needs to be dealt with by your opponent. If he isn't, the card advantage you get just wins you the game most of the time. However, if you haven't been able to remove your opponents creature removal you can bet Confidant will soak it up which clears the way for your other beats. And the fact that he can swing for 2 does matter aswell.

2/1 beater is an oxymoron. When you want to win by turn 5 or so, as Suiblack is designed to do, you want threats on the board. Confidant draws you threats, but they're in your hand. He does nothing to increase the threats on the board-- in fact, he really decreases it, since you're giving up the chance to drop a beater on turn 2 in exchange for a card that won't deal nearly as much damage. At that point, you aren't dropping a real threat until turn 3.

He's only really going to give you crushing card advantage if the game goes long, and if that happens, you already lost.

[Melwis]

2/1 beater is an oxymoron. When you want to win by turn 5 or so, as Suiblack is designed to do, you want threats on the board. Confidant draws you threats, but they're in your hand. He does nothing to increase the threats on the board-- in fact, he really decreases it, since you're giving up the chance to drop a beater on turn 2 in exchange for a card that won't deal nearly as much damage. At that point, you aren't dropping a real threat until turn 3.

He's only really going to give you crushing card advantage if the game goes long, and if that happens, you already lost.

How can a Confidant on second turn that stays not give you more threats on the board? When you're drawing 2 cards/turn you rarely miss a landdrop while at the same time you're also getting more threats or disruption. And while doing all this he can sometimes swing for 2. If the game draws a little longer while I have a Confidant out I bet i'm winning the game, not losing it.

What turn 2 beater are you talking about that gives more speed then Confidant? I would argue Nantuko Shade to be way slower because then you're arguments towards Confidant (which I think are wrong) add in. If you want Shade to be a threat you have to tap out meaning your threats stays in your hand.

[Baumeister]

@ Melwis:

Dark Confiant seems good when you first put it in, because all of a sudden you're drawing cards. I used it for a while, but it became lack-luster because it simply wasn't big enough. Sure, it draws you cards, but in a way, it also draws your opponents more cards. Compare its 2/1 body to a 5/5. With the 5/5, it'll take only four turns to kill the opponent while the Confidant will take ten. That's six cards and six more turns the opponent has to help them stabilize. Also, Confidant is a horrible top deck.

And don't say that you can drop more threats because that's a horrible idea with this deck. The idea is to drop a beater, disrupt, and win. If the opponent kills your guy, drop another one.

By the way, the replacement for Tarmogoyf in mono-black is Phyrexian Negator. That guy is insane. And you should be playing Snuff-Out because free removal is awesome.

[Roman Candle]

How can a Confidant on second turn that stays not give you more threats on the board? When you're drawing 2 cards/turn you rarely miss a landdrop while at the same time you're also getting more threats or disruption. And while doing all this he can sometimes swing for 2. If the game draws a little longer while I have a Confidant out I bet i'm winning the game, not losing it.

What turn 2 beater are you talking about that gives more speed then Confidant? I would argue Nantuko Shade to be way slower because then you're arguments towards Confidant (which I think are wrong) add in. If you want Shade to be a threat you have to tap out meaning your threats stays in your hand.

Confidant robs you of tempo because he can hardly ever attack. In addition, he has to stick around for multiple turns to generate real card advantage. On turn two, you would much rather have beef that can take advantage of the disruption you played on turn 1.

There are plenty of turn 2 beaters that could be in Confidant's slot. Like Rotting Giant. Or, y'know, Tarmogoyf.

Your late game is very weak, and if you can't win early, you're pretty much screwed. Once the opponent stabilizes, you're pretty much screwed. Confidant gives them a chance to stabilize, since he's not actually a threat.

[Lammina]

Hi all!

My version of the Suicide black, is more aggro.

// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [PT] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 Bayou

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 Carnophage
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [A] Sinkhole
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
4 Sarcomancy
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and Ice

SIDEBOARD

3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke\ Defensive Perimeter
3 Phyrexian Negator (against controls)
3 Enginered Plague
3 Relic of progenitus\ Leyline black

Comments, please!

Thx,

Lammina

[Melwis]

Confidant as a beater (2/1) is not a real threat ofcourse but I say it one more time, his ability wins games. I don't understand how you help the opponent stabilize when you're drawing 2 cards/turn since this will give you more beats or disruption while ensuring landdrops.

@Baumeister: Why the hell would you never play additional creatures in this deck if you know they'll stick? If I get an early Confidant out I might start off playing disruption (or creature removal if my opponent manages to play an early threat) of the cards I get but when I don't have any left and I know my opponent is mana screwed or doesn't have anything dangerous in his hand, I sure as hell will play a second beater.

Also, you're comparing Tombstalker with Confidant and your argument is Stalker is 5/5, Confidant is 2/1, it's bad. I'm not saying Stalker is bad (i'm playing 3 if you didn't see my list) but comparing these cards purely based on P/T is pretty damn stupid. And unless you mean you're throwing out Stalkers turn 2 on a regular basis (you're not) I can tell you that an early Confidant that stays is what accelerates you into the 5/5 flyer.

The things I agree with is that:

Confidant is a bad (sometimes horrible) topdeck. But I don't think it justifies cutting him.

Snuff Out might be worth it but since I believe that a card that costs 4 life would be too much in my current list i'm leaving it for now. Besides, since i'm not using a sideboard, Snuff Out sucks when i'm facing black.

Phyrexian Negator is good, but a bit situational. Sometimes you'll be able to win asap thanks to Negator but there will be moments where it has no other choice but to stand there.

@Roman Candle: Goyf is played in Eva Green not in SB. Yes i'm aware that Eva Green might be better but since we're discussing SB here you can't compare him to Confidant.

Rotting Giant? He can beat for 1 more, doesn't die to Mogg Fanatic which is being dismissed anyway and keeps you from playing Tombstalker. I'm not impressed.

An early Confidant can make SB win longer games then you expect. If you really think Confidant helps an opponent to stabilize you're wrong. Unless maybe if you go by "never play more then 1 beater".

[Baumeister]

@ Melwis:

You don't play additional creatures because you shouldn't have to. The plan is to land some fat and make your opponent deal with it. Nantuko Shade, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Negator are extremely large creatures that force the opponent to find an answer instead of sticking to their game plan.

Arguments against Dark Confidant:
It has a tiny ass
It sucks at attacking
You don't even WANT to attack with it
It's oxymoronic to the deck's goals

Arguments for Dark Confidant:
It draws you cards
It must be answered

The game should never go long enough where you would want an active Confidant on the board. Furthermore, in order to make Confidant useful, you have to slow the deck down, turning it into Deadguy Ale.

These are starting hands that usually happen with this deck:

T1: Swamp, Thoughtseize; T2: Swamp, Nantuko Shade

T1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter

T1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach

T1: Bloodstained Mire into Swamp, Thoughtseize; T2: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Tombstalker

When would I ever want to play a Dark Confidant in any of that? The card is good, but not in this deck. When you play Dark Confidant, you are attempting to prolong the game so that you will benefit from the card advantage it provides. That's not what this deck is trying to do. Disrupt, lay some fat, and beat the shit out of your opponent.

Confidant is weak, backwards to the deck's goal, and taking up spots for other, bigger, better creatures.

[Melwis]

@ Melwis:

You don't play additional creatures because you shouldn't have to. The plan is to land some fat and make your opponent deal with it. Nantuko Shade, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Negator are extremely large creatures that force the opponent to find an answer instead of sticking to their game plan.

Confidant is a creature that the opponent has to find an anwser too aswell. If Confidant stays you will likely be able to disrupt your opponents even more, making it even tougher for them. If you're in that position (thanks to Confidant), there is no reason not to play another beater to put your opponent on a faster clock.


Arguments against Dark Confidant:
It has a tiny ass
It sucks at attacking
You don't even WANT to attack with it
It's oxymoronic to the deck's goals

There really isn't alot of creature removal cards that can't deal with any of our other creatures but Confidant. Since Mogg Fanatic is being dismissed x/1's can feel alot more safe. Fire/Ice can kill both Specter and Shade (if you're tapped out), so can every single burn spell.

Aslong as your opponents board is free of creatures Confidant swings for 2 which shouldn't be dismissed. Still, this is not the main reason i'm defending him.

Why?

The goals deck is to disrupt your opponent and play creatures which has to be answered. How does Confidant hinder that goal?


Arguments for Dark Confidant:
It let's you get both disruption/threats each turn while ensuring landdrops which usually spells GG for your opponent.
It must be answered

Fixed.


The game should never go long enough where you would want an active Confidant on the board. Furthermore, in order to make Confidant useful, you have to slow the deck down, turning it into Deadguy Ale.

What do you mean "you have to slow the deck down"? The only cards I run because I play with Confidant is 3 SDT's but honestly it deserves those slots. Reducing the lifeloss of Confidant, producing serious card quality with fetchlands and being 1 CMC I think that's good enough reasons.


These are starting hands that usually happen with this deck:

T1: Swamp, Thoughtseize; T2: Swamp, Nantuko Shade

T1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Hypnotic Specter

T1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach

T1: Bloodstained Mire into Swamp, Thoughtseize; T2: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Tombstalker

First hand: I'd much rather replace Confidant with Shade in that spot. Shade is not a very good turn 2 play. One Thoughtseize is not enough to disrupt your opponent so your mana will be used to keep playing more spells meaning Shade will be a 2/1 (possibly a 3/2) for the next two-four turns.

Second hand: There is a possibility that Specter will just be removed when you do this. It's a strong play though, but I prefer to play Thoughtseize/Sinkhole/Hymn the first few turns and then follow up with Specter.

Third hand: This does not happen consistently but when it does you can be pretty sure your next creature will stay and probably win the game for you, wether it's Shade/Stalker/Specter/Negator or Confidant.

Fourth hand: This is not something the deck pulls of consistently. Even though, if I have more disruption in my hand for turn 2 in this case I would probably use it and play Stalker turn 3 to increase the chance of it staying.


When would I ever want to play a Dark Confidant in any of that? The card is good, but not in this deck. When you play Dark Confidant, you are attempting to prolong the game so that you will benefit from the card advantage it provides. That's not what this deck is trying to do. Disrupt, lay some fat, and beat the shit out of your opponent.

Seriously, if Confidant stays for just one turn he still might have 2-1'ed your opponent (using something to remove him with) and probably gave you something useful that will help. If Confidant stays for more then one turn your opponent is in trouble. What i'm trying to say is that Confidant doesn't need more rounds then any of your other creatures to simply win the game for you.


Confidant is weak, backwards to the deck's goal, and taking up spots for other, bigger, better creatures.

Right, i'm still waiting for something better then Rotting Giant...

[Kove]

I've recently had some pretty good success with my deck. Now, it's actually Red Death but the red splash is so minor that I decided that I couldn't be arsed necroing the real Red Death thread as my deck's just basically Suicide Black with Lightning Bolts.

I noticed that a lot of the lists here are a lot more controllish than mine and most Eva Green players' which I find odd as these decks are just Suicide Black decks with very, very minor color splashes. Imho Suicide Black decks (no matter what splash, if any) should be all about aggression and disruption. Too much control, card filtering and/or card drawing just seem to slow down and dillute the deck.

Here's my list. A few things might look odd but I got my reasons. ;-)

MAIN: 60
Creatures: 15
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Ashenmoor Gouger
3 Tombstalker

Instants: 14
4 Snuff Out
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Dark Ritual
2 Funeral Charm

Sorceries: 10
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

Lands: 21
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
9 Swamp

SIDEBOARD: 15
4 Engineered Plague
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Dystopia
2 Duress

Things you'll probably point out: Ashenmoor Gouger, Funeral Charm, # of Thoughtseizes and fetchlands.

I love Phyrexian Negator. He's easily in my top3 of favourite creatures because of his immense power, easy mana cost and the awesome drawing. I mean, he looks like an Alien! But his drawback is just ball busting. Zoo and sligh'ish decks and decks that generally run a lot of creatures are really popular in my meta: bad news for the Negator. Ashenmoor Gouger is the closest I can find. He's a solid beatstick but his "Cannot block" "ability" is really, really annoying, hehe. Oh well.
I'd thought about trying out Shambling Remains instead but I wasn't sold on that idea as Dark Ritualling out threats on turn one can be really effective which isn't possible with the Remains. It's a slow creature, doesn't have synergy with Tombstalker and semi-opens me to graveyard hate.

I only own two Thoughtseizes which means I have to look for alternatives for the last two copies. For a long time these spots were held by Duress but I felt like trying out Funeral Charm as I really liked the card back when I fooled around with Pox. Now, I've only played with them a couple of times but they've been sweet.
It's a very, very flexible card to the point where it's rarely dead. It can kill off annoying weenies (Lackey, Confidant, mana producing creatures, Mother of Runes, Lavamancer etc.). It can also help your aggressive gameplan by making creatures go the distance by boosting for the last few points of damage - or simply make a creature unblockable. The discard part of the card is obviously mostly weaker than Duress' effect and I don't like it as my turn one play. However it feels great to discard a hellbent opponents newly drawn card at the end of his draw step. I won a game that way by discarding his topdecked Tombstalker. ;-)
So far I like it better than Duress.

I only own four Bloodstained Mires. No Polluted Deltas. :-( If I had them I'd probably run the 4th Tombstalker.

The last card that I'd want to point out is Dystopia. This card's just a house. It rarely ever goes down without granting you card advantage as well as keeping people from casting more creatures while it's active. Oh, and it also takes care of annoying cards that are otherwise more or less impossible for a monoblack/red deck to handle, like Humility, Moat and the green and white planeswalkers. Try it out. You won't regret it.

[Darkenslight]

I don't know about you, but with most of the good removal being White, I would consider Dross Harvester and, as alternatives to SDT and Bob, Cruel Bargain and Sign In Blood as your draw. Something to look into, at least.

[Roman Candle]

Seriously, if Confidant stays for just one turn he still might have 2-1'ed your opponent (using something to remove him with) and probably gave you something useful that will help. If Confidant stays for more then one turn your opponent is in trouble. What i'm trying to say is that Confidant doesn't need more rounds then any of your other creatures to simply win the game for you.


I can see a 2 for 1 being pretty rare with Confidant, because if the opponent really felt a dire need to kill it, they would do it the turn it came down, or else they would leave it there. And since you're never going to get to swing with Confidant, it shouldn't count for a card in your 2-1 scenario if the opponent doesn't waste a card to kill it.

Also, playing Sensei's Divining Top is terrible in an aggro deck. You should be dropping threats and disruption with that mana. Stop trying to be good in the long game and focus on what the deck is good at.

But you know something? I've changed my mind on Confidant and SDT. You might as well play them, because trying to make the deck good will make it a shitty Eva Green/Team America. Playing with bad cards at least gives you justification for playing Sui-Black.

[Melwis]

I can see a 2 for 1 being pretty rare with Confidant, because if the opponent really felt a dire need to kill it, they would do it the turn it came down, or else they would leave it there. And since you're never going to get to swing with Confidant, it shouldn't count for a card in your 2-1 scenario if the opponent doesn't waste a card to kill it.

Ok I agree, my scenario was a bit flawed. Still, sometimes your opponent doesn't have something to remove Confidant with (either because he/she hasn't drawn it or because we've discarded it) and if Confidant stays he'll still generate awesome cardadvantage and perhaps will soak up a creature removal spell later on. Then your opponent will be at a serious disadvantage and you will likely have plenty of new threats to dish out (thanks to Confidants drawing).


Also, playing Sensei's Divining Top is terrible in an aggro deck. You should be dropping threats and disruption with that mana. Stop trying to be good in the long game and focus on what the deck is good at.

I agree that it might be questionable to play SDT but there are solid reason why you should:

1. It has a CMC of 1 which the deck lack, playing a first turn SDT can hardly be negative for the deck if you can't play anything else.

2. Sometimes SB will have stripped it's opponents of most of their cards but might also have only a few "useless" cards left aswell. When these scenarios occur and topdecks become important, SDT can be gamebreaking.

3. Reducing the lifeloss of Confidant. With SDT and Confidant out, Confidant's drawback is more or less nullified.

4. Generates awesome card quality with fetchlands.


But you know something? I've changed my mind on Confidant and SDT. You might as well play them, because trying to make the deck good will make it a shitty Eva Green/Team America. Playing with bad cards at least gives you justification for playing Sui-Black.

I think neither of us is going to convince the other so there's no point in arguing any further, atleast not regarding Confidant.

Perhaps Eva Green and Team America is strictly better decks then Suicide Black but i'm not sure and I won't give up SB just yet because I think it has potential.

[Baumeister]

@ Melwis:

You say that Nantuko Shade is mana hungry, yet you include Sensei's Divining Top in your deck. This is what's called a contradictory statement. After you land Shade, you shouldn't need to play much else until the opponent answers it. This is why Snuff Out is an amazing card for this deck. It's FREE REMOVAL.

Confidant absolutely does slow down the deck. You even said yourself that you added three Sensei's Divining Top to compensate for the life loss. Top is a control card that gets better as the game goes longer. Or you could just drop Confidant along with Top and free up seven spots in your deck.

This is the creature base that I run:

4x Nantuko Shade
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Tombstalker

There is no reason to run any less than four of any of those creatures. Shade is a house, it absolutely is. I never use all of my mana after I drop him because there is no need to land another threat. He wins the game by himself, something that Confidant cannot do.

Phyrexian Negator has won me so many games that I don't care if he screws me over once in a while. I can literally count on one hand how many times he's put me into a position from where I can't recover. He is amazing, and you should run him. If you say he's too dangerous, then play a different deck.

By the way, Confidant has to stick around for two turns after you land him to gain card advantage. The first turn after he's in play is just card advantage. With any other creature in the deck, those two turns equals about 10 damage.

And don't fix my posts to false statements just because you think you're right. There are more people in this thread who have tested and dismissed Confidant for the very reasons you seem apt to dismiss.

Also, I land Tombstalker on turn two about every three or four games. It comes down turn three more often than that (and with protection). It must be all of those Tops you're running that prevent you from landing game-shattering plays.

[Mr. Durden]

I know this has been mentioned earlier in the thread a few times but I've had a lot of success with nyxathid in the negator slot. Most of the time he's at least as big as negator (sometimes bigger) and makes an enormous difference in some matchups. In particular burn and most aggro decks, which empty their hands and don't expect a 7/7 hitting the board. The main thing I see as a drawback is you can't ritual him out first turn like a negator but you don't end up losing all your permanents when he gets bolted.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Why not run..

4 Nantuko Husk
4 Negator
4 Bitterblossom
3 Dark Confidant
3 Hippie
2 Tombstalker

I run a slightly similar deck, but hey... bitterblossom & "bob" work great mixed in with ritual, or also turns when you don't get ritual they provide huge card advantage that accelerates your aggro more than it hinders IMO.

I run some fetch in my deck, but still I think 4 Tomstalker is too many. I'm considering maybe 3, but two bumping into eachother at any time is a bad bad thing.

I Also love the synergy of Nantuk Husk, Bitterblossom, and Negator. Sac'ing creatures to Husk after blockers assigned not only protects permanents from Negator (those times when you're staring down a 4/5 goyf.. but have to swing anyways >.<) but provides very good finisher.

My deck I use, I like to draw fast & play fast, I don't really like shade a lot. I mean, its a very good creature but I'm almost always sitting with more cards to play in hand and I don't like wasting a drop to pump creatures. I also run 2 Arenas, which all the more accelerates. Turn 1 Arena is very good against decks like countertop and such, you draw faster disruption and drop faster, its very good.

[Tea]

Does it matter that negator has trample?

[LegacyDan]

Does it matter that negator has trample?


Very rarely, since ya don't want him to attack with the possibility of him receiving combat damage.

[Baumeister]

Very rarely, since ya don't want him to attack with the possibility of him receiving combat damage.

This is not entirely true. It's true that it doesn't really matter that Negator has trample (although it has come up more than you'd think), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't attack into your opponent's creatures. People block Negator far less than expected. It also depends on your board position. If you have the ability to sacrifice the number of permanents required, it's worth it to go in for the attack. If it leaves your opponent with an empty board, that's a good thing. Also, I've used Negator to fill my yard and drop Tombstalker in the second main phase many times.

Also, you should be running between six and eight pieces of removal. If the opponent has only one creature out, it shouldn't be hard to take it out and proceed to smash face. If the opponent has two or three creatures out, more than likely they are small (think tribal) and it is correct to attack into them. They will either let it through, or chump block leaving an empty board on both sides and a full graveyard for your Tombstalker to munch on.

About Nyxathid: He's okay. The ability to drop your creatures first turn with this deck is huge, though. I can see situations where Nyxathid would be amazing, but I can imagine more where Negator is better. The deck runs enough discard that he could work out, though. If you were to play Nyxathid, I'd run maybe 10 or 11 pieces of discard to make him more consistant. Discard is a dead draw later game, though.

[Mr. Durden]

well that's what I love about Nyxathid and The Rack (which I run as an additional threat that can be casted off of colorless). They turn your otherwise dead late game discard topdecks into damage. Granted neither is optimal against certain matchups but I can't afford sinkholes right now so I'm sticking with a discard-heavier version.

[Mystical_Jackass]

If you ever ritual a Negator into play, is it a smart move to keep a land or two in your hand, or just say f' it lol?

[FoolofaTook]

If you ever ritual a Negator into play, is it a smart move to keep a land or two in your hand, or just say f' it lol?

I think it's an all-in play. The opponent either has an answer in which case your odds of winning shrink to very little, or he doesn't in which case you win. Look at the DTB forum and figure out how many of those decks you'd be willing to ritual a negator in against on turn 1 if you knew you were playing them.

Tempo Thresh - no.
Zoo - no.
Aggro Loam - yes.
Vial Goblins - no.
Merfolk - maybe, but probably not.
CounterTop - yes.
Survival - yes, but it'd be a bit shaky if he drew well.
UGW/UGB Threshold - yes.
UGR Threshold - no.
Landstill - yes.

Of course not knowing what you're playing game one makes the entire proposition extremely risky given the number of decks splashing red these days.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Has anyone tried Midnight Charm with Negator. The card just seems like it was made for this deck :)

It just seems awesome, I mean you'd be able to give it first strike against multiple block weenies, take out a lackey, or mid-late game tap down an untapped Goyf and swing in. Great utility card to go with snuff out

[Baumeister]

@ Mr. Durden: I understand where you're coming from, but it's hard to explain the power of Sinkhole if you don't actually own them. I know it's a large chunk of change, but that card wins so many games that it's unbelievable. And it's amazing how excellent land destruction is when it costs two, but how crappy it is at three for this deck. If you're really interested in playing this deck, I'd recommend Sinkholes as your next investment. It may seem hard to justify, but it gives such a power boost to the deck.

@ FoolofaTook: I'd ritual in Negator against Tempo Thresh, Goblins, and Merfolk, with Goblins being the most risky. Against the two blue decks, they'd be likely to counter it, which is fine because it fuels your graveyard. I know Goblins sounds crazy, but their first turn usually consists of either Aether Vial or Goblin Lackey (or nothing), and I would definitely attack into that.

@ Mystical_Jackass: I play Diabolic Edict in the spot that Midnight Charm would go. I'll admit that first strike seems pretty amazing, especially as a combat trick. I'd have to do some testing, but Edict has proven its worth many times.

Is there really that much interest in this deck? The deck is fairly strong in the current metagame as it tromps control and is good against CounterTop.

[Tea]

Actually, this is the same deck as Eva Green without the green splash. Why should one play this over Eva Green? You get a mono-colored manabase, but you lose tarmogofy, krosan grip, and choke.
In my opinion this is another reason to run Negator: Ashenmoor Gouger is just worse than tarmogoyf; whereas Negator can be better sometimes, as he is a bit stronger than ashenmoor gouger and through trample the last points of damage can be dealt.

What I don’t like about midnight charm is the fact that it can be dead sometimes, so I just go with diabolic edict.

This is my version without a SB:

4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
9 swamp

4 dark ritual

4 tombstalker
4 nantuko shade
4 negator
4 hypnotic specter

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole

4 snuff out
3 diabolic edict

[Arsenal]

That's what I'm running too, but -3 Diabolic Edict, +3 Pithing Needle; basically, the Eva Green shell with the appropriate black replacements.

IMO, there's no reason to run this over Eva Green aside from budget constraints. Goyf, Choke, Grip/Seal/Pulse, etc. is worth opening up to non-basic hate.

[Mr. Durden]

@Baumeister
I actually was running sinkholes that I had borrowed from a friend for a while but they always seemed lackluster. Then again that was a very different list so I should probably try them out again if I can borrow them from that guy again. At any rate I'd probably have to change my list pretty drastically because I'm running the Rack and Nyxathid right now, neither of which meld very well with an opponent who's forced to hold cards by a sinkhole. I do run Wasteland though and it's fantastic.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I totally agree. You'd need to have a legit incentive to go mono black.

Speed off the line.. maybe? Otherwise, if this deck ran something like Bitterblossom + Contamination, that may be a reason 'cause you're providing a reason to combo on black & a far superior lock to choke...

[Baumeister]

@ Tea: That's the exact decklist that I am running. The only problems I have is filling in the sideboard. This is what I have so far:

4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Pithing Needle
3x Open Slot

I've run Duress, Cabal Therapy, Dystopia, etc. in that last slot, but nothing really fits. Maybe some more targetted removal? Null Rod could be good at this point for more game against Goblins and Countertop.

The only two reasons to run this deck over Eva Green are the stability of the mana base against opposing Wastelands and Moon effects, and the budgetary concerns. Honestly though, the decks play very similarly. Eva Green has an edge on raw power, but the mono-black version seems to have an elegance to it that wins games (not to mention that sometimes Negator is better than Tarmogoyf) and I have never been screwed by the mana base.

Unfortunately, Suicide Black isn't much faster than Eva Green - they end up killing about the same turn.

[Tea]

What about jitte?
I think the aggro matchup is quite tough as we are a bit suicidal. So jitte could help here.
Moreover, we could need a replacement for negator in case we face a matchup where he is bad.

[Baumeister]

What about jitte?
I think the aggro matchup is quite tough as we are a bit suicidal. So jitte could help here.
Moreover, we could need a replacement for negator in case we face a matchup where he is bad.

Huh, I completely forgot about that card. The only aggro matchup that should be extremely difficult is Zoo since they land multiple creautres that are as big as yours. Jitte would be very helpful there. If you see more tribal aggro, then Infest might be a better choice.

[Melwis]

Since someone mentioned Contamination and there's been some posting of lists using Meekstone what about this SBC (Suicide Black Control) version:

// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
16 [PT] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [U] Hypnotic Specter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [FNM] Smother
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [B] Meekstone
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [US] Contamination

Can it work?

[Mystical_Jackass]

Nice.

I really love that list, that's hilarious 'cause I was just about to mention meekstone. :wink:

I like your thinking with Smother & meekstone. Outside of the life loss & direct damage, I think that's a pretty solid build. I sorta like that new M10 Terror, MAINLY because meekstone unlike ensnaring bridge doesn't just stop them dead... they still get to swing with that 12/12 nought or 5/6 goyf, or every creature that comes into play for that matter... it doesn't stop them dead.. it just slows them down thereafter, so you might want that terror just in case your life gets too low and they're still dropping creatures, ya know.

Contamination lock is evile lol, and you are always able to sac confidant to it when your lifetotal becomes in jeopardy.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Nice.

I really love that list, that's hilarious 'cause I was just about to mention meekstone. :wink:

I like your thinking with Smother & meekstone. Outside of the life loss & direct damage, I think that's a pretty solid build.

[overseer1234]

meekstone unlike ensnaring bridge doesn't just stop them dead... they still get to swing with that 12/12 nought or 5/6 goyf, or every creature that comes into play for that matter... it doesn't stop them dead.. it just slows them down thereafter, so you might want that terror just in case your life gets too low and they're still dropping creatures, ya know.

That's why I play 4 jitte, to make sure you keep your life total out of the alpha strike range.

You don't need to worry about vanilla creature's getting one shot at you since you can still chumpblock them with bitterblossom.

Contamination lock is cool, but I think that jitte+B-Blossom also win's you the game, and jitte isn'd dead without B-Blossom

[Melwis]

That's why I play 4 jitte, to make sure you keep your life total out of the alpha strike range.

You don't need to worry about vanilla creature's getting one shot at you since you can still chumpblock them with bitterblossom.

Contamination lock is cool, but I think that jitte+B-Blossom also win's you the game, and jitte isn'd dead without B-Blossom

I must say wether you go with 4 Jitte or a 2/2 split between it and Contamination I am starting to like this version of SB and Meekstone and/or Contamination is two possible reasons why to play this deck over a splash to begin with.

[Mr. Durden]

Has anyone tried the meekstone version in a tournament lately? How's it do against the field? Meekstone seems solid except every deck it matters against seems like it has a way to deal with it.

[bowvamp]

In sui, doesn't meekstone just make all your creatures suck? They all have high power as far as my eyes can tell.

[Melwis]

In sui, doesn't meekstone just make all your creatures suck? They all have high power as far as my eyes can tell.

The creatures you most likely play in a Meekstone build are the following:

Dark Confidant
Hypnotic Specter
Nantuko Shade
Bitterblossom (not a creature but still should count as it)

Nantuko Shade is really good under Meekstone since it doesn't get tapped but can swing for much more than 2. Bitterblossom is there to either chump block opposing creatures (who then gets tapped under Meekstone) or to produce counters on Jitte (or do both).

[Mr. Durden]

Has anyone had any tournament success with the meekstone build? If so maybe a tournament report would be in order. I'm considering switching my build to that one but not quite sold on it yet.

[MTG-Fan]

Nether Void is an amazing card in this deck.

Establish some board condition with a Blossom, or a Shade, ritual out a Void and lock your opponent out of the game for the next few turns while you beat down.

I'm running 2 in my Suicide Black list.

[Mr. Durden]

I took a mono black control aggro (not sure if it's really suicide) to a tournament yesterday and finished 3-2 just one game out of the money.
Here's the list I took:
16 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Nyxathid
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Tombstalker
3 The Rack
3 Smother
3 diabolic Edict

Sideboard:
3 Perish (the nuts!)
4 engineered plague (four merfolk decks, and a sliver deck)
4 extirpate
4 Powder keg

Changes I'd make (with cards I have right now):
-3 The Rack +3 Top

Things People might comment on:
Nyxathid- awesome all day, every time he hit the board the opponent had to find an answer, he ended many games swiftly. I think negator would be horrible in my meta against tons of aggro control decks and some burn.

The Rack- Usually love it, and it only gets better in multiples. I run fourteen (hippie, hymn, thoughtseize, duress) discard effects so it's always at least a lightning bolt for colorless. Needs to become top because Bob damage got to be a bit too much in some matchups and I found myself siding out the rack an awful lot more than I like.

I've top foured several times with this deck but am constantly tweaking it. I'd love to hear some feedback.

Meta this time was: Merfolk, Burn, Canadian Thresh, Mono Green chalice aggro, CounterSlivers, Some variation of Eva Green or Dead Eva, Dragon Stompy, TES, Countertop decks ( it's usually always something along those lines. Lots of aggro control with the occassional combo deck or sometimes stax and landstill for control decks)

Thanks!

[Mystical_Jackass]

Seems maybe a "little" too much on the discard; with your aggro style, I'd think maybe taking out like 2 of the Rack and 2 Duress... maybe add 4x Sinkhole. Gives you even more turn 1-3explosiveness..
In aggro-style Black decks I'm a fan of it, 'cause it gives you a quick edge on opponent following Ritual'ing out a Beater. Or the classic ritual + thoughtseize + confidant/Hymn, utterly own their hand. Follow next turn sinkhole their only land, they would be SOo pissed ROFL!

If you have 4, try it out or Proxy some, play a friend and see if you like it otherwise you can always go back. :wink:

[Mr. Durden]

Thanks! I'll try it out proxied with friends then see if I can borrow some for the next tournamnet.

[dal9ll]

Hello everyone!

Ive been following this thread for a little while as a lurker but decided to register and start contributing! These are great forums and Im glad to be a part of them.

Anyway, regarding Black Suicide, I have a question about Meekstone and Nantuko Shade. If I pump up a Shade to equal to or above power 3 to attack it will still be able to untap on my untap step with Meekstone out, right?

Also, Id like to post my deck on here for some critique. Id like to note that Phyrexian Negator and Bitterblossom are not cards that I feel fit in Black Sui. Theres too much direct damage and aggro in my meta to justify running Negator, and I have personal qualms with Blossom. Its obviously a great card but I feel there are much better turn 2 plays than a Bitterblossom. Sure its great when running the Contamination lock and/or Bad Moon, but I feel its out of place in an aggro-heavy version of Black Sui. Here’s my list:

4 Carnophage
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtsieze
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Snuff Out
1 Extirpate

4 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Urborg
13 Swamp

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Duress
1 Dystopia
2 Withered Wretch
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

PS: Is Extirpate considered a graveyard-hate card? It seems like it is game-breaking against Cephalid Breakfast, Dredge, and many other graveyard-reliant decks.

Thanks a ton everyone!

[Arsenal]

Negator is 100% win or 100% lose. There's very little 'in-between' with him. If you resolve him versus control, combo (assuming they aren't holding turn 1 win), and non-red aggro-control, there's a strong chance you'll ride him to victory behind removal + disruption.

Personally, I still run him. He has some synergy with Tombstalker and he is the best beater black has to offer for the mana cost. True, he sucks versus decks packing red, but I'll accept that if it means I'll trample down the throats of the other 4 colors in Magic.

[Dark Ritual]

Extirpate is a GY hate card definately. It is THE best card against ichorid because they can do nothing about it at all unless they lay chalice at 1 which would be very strange because most lists don't even run chalice out of the sideboard anyways.

Negator is a high risk high reward type card. It is a meta choice but you can always board the card out and I would encourage you to board the card out if you facing any type of deck that runs burn because it will be terrible if they manage to bolt it when you're low on permanents

[Raindown]

4 Carnophage
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtsieze
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Snuff Out
1 Extirpate

4 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Urborg
13 Swamp

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Duress
1 Dystopia
2 Withered Wretch
1 Umezawa’s Jitte



How competitive is something like this? or this deck type in general?

[dal9ll]

Im sorry I dont quite understand the question... Yes, I think this deck can hold its own in a competitive Legacy environment. Sure it may not have 4 Sinkhole (yet) but my testing has shown it can absolutely hold its own against Solidarity, Cephalid Breakfast, Landstill, and Burn. Its more of a "sligh" direction in the deck, with every spell costing 2 or less (after I replace Hippie with Sinkhole).

I'll also say that Im NOT a fan of Tombstalker in this deck. IMO taking 8 up the ass with Bob in play makes it not worth running, especially since you need to Delve for 5-6 (which isnt very viable reight away) just to make him worth it.

[JeroenC]

Burn and Cephalid Breakfast are subpar, and Solidarity is hardly played. Saying you can win against those decks is great, but means absolutely nothing.

[Arsenal]

Im sorry I dont quite understand the question... Yes, I think this deck can hold its own in a competitive Legacy environment. Sure it may not have 4 Sinkhole (yet) but my testing has shown it can absolutely hold its own against Solidarity, Cephalid Breakfast, Landstill, and Burn. Its more of a "sligh" direction in the deck, with every spell costing 2 or less (after I replace Hippie with Sinkhole).

I'll also say that Im NOT a fan of Tombstalker in this deck. IMO taking 8 up the ass with Bob in play makes it not worth running, especially since you need to Delve for 5-6 (which isnt very viable reight away) just to make him worth it.

If you run fetchlands, 8-12 discard spells, and Dark Ritual, getting 5-6 cards in the yard by turn 3/4 isn't unrealistic. And a resolved Stalker is tough to beat.

[coraz86]

If you run fetchlands, 8-12 discard spells, and Dark Ritual, getting 5-6 cards in the yard by turn 3/4 isn't unrealistic. And a resolved Stalker is tough to beat.

True story. It's a lucky draw, but I've fetched and double-Ritualed into turn one Stalker a handful of times. I seem to remember winning all of them.

As much as I used to love the 1-cc 2/2 plan, I really don't think it's viable anymore. I grew up on Rath-block Standard and I'd love to be proven wrong, but it seems unlikely to me.

In the list provided, I'd put Tombstalker in the Sarcomancy slot, and cut the Carnophages for two SDTs and at least one more Snuff Out. If not the third Snuff Out, that last slot really should be the fourth Thoughtseize or third Therapy (probably the former).

I've played at least five hundred games with sui variants including both Bobs and Tombstalkers. The interaction has been an issue exactly twice. Maybe I'm lucky, but they're each really good for the deck and they don't butt heads often enough to matter. I run a couple Tops to smooth out the late game, so you could do that if you're really worried about it.

[dal9ll]

Id like to note thats its much more likely to flip a Tokmbstalker with a Bob than it is to double-Ritual, etc. into a Turn one Tombstalker. It seems as though your experience has taught you one thing and mine has taught me another.

Regarding your other suggestions, coraz, SDT is very interesting. It fits the curve and the goal of the deck well I think. Personally however, Ive only infrequently felt the need to put more CA into the deck due to Bob plus heavy, heavy discard. I'll see how it does in testing!


I may drop a couple Sarcos/Carnos to get another Sieze/Therapy as thats not a bad idea at all. I am in a sort of Goblin-heavy meta though where T1 Sarco/Carno puts a swift stop to Lackey sillyness.

Thanks for the advice.

[boltking]

Do you think nyxathid would be a viable creature in this deck? Ive tested a similiar build and nyxathid can be a house. Im not a big fan of carnophage there must be something better to put in place of him.

[Mr. Durden]

I've been using nyxathid since it came out, usually in place of phyrexian negators. I've always loved them because when one comes down, it always makes the opponent groan and they usually end the game quickly. I've had very few instances where I wasn't happy to see one.

[coraz86]

You know, as long as you're running Nyxathids, I've been running Pox in my sui/Eva decks and loving it. You'd have to be careful then to not let your curve get too top-heavy though. For instance, the Eva deck I usually use goes

4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Tombstalker
3 or 4 Hyppie

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pox
4 Dark Ritual
2 Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

with the last three slots vacillating between Maelstrom Pulse, Snuff Out, and Unmask depending on the meta. I think if you started with that list, dropping Goyf for Nyxathid should be okay as long as those last couple slots are free spells (I think I like Snuff Out best in mono-black, though that's purely taste). With Pox in the list, plus all the discard and six fetches and four Wastelands, I almost always get my first Stalker for :b::b: and I've played three in a game before.
Pox also really helps keep your opponent's hand low or empty, so Nyxathid should be hitting for 5 or 6 every time you swing with it.

Not that I'm LSV or anything, but I like this idea and haven't seen anyone else mention it yet.

[dal9ll]

Coraz, Phyrexian Arena looks like better choice in that list than Bob, given all the 3 and 4 drops, not to mention 4 Tombstalkers. Its an interesting approach though.

[dearleader]

Coraz, Phyrexian Arena looks like better choice in that list than Bob, given all the 3 and 4 drops, not to mention 4 Tombstalkers. Its an interesting approach though.

I'd actually say the opposite is true, since hippy, jitte, and pox are going to be competing for mana around turns 3-5. I wouldn't add phyrexian arena into the mix. You have a legitimate concern considering the added lifeloss of Pox and Snuff Out, but I've never liked Phyrexian Arena in aggro decks. It's way too slow and the game usually doesn't last long enough for it to make a positive difference. I'd rather have more lifeloss with the additional card advantage and creature in Bob.

[TheMightyQuinn]

What are everybody's thoughts on some of the spoiled Zendikar creatures for Sui Black? Specifically:

Bloodghast BB
Creature - Vampire Spirit
Bloodghast can't block.
Bloodghast has haste as long as an opponent has 10 life or less.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Bloodghast from your graveyard to the battlefield.
2/1

Gatekeeper of Malakir BB
Creature - Vampire Warrior
Kicker B (You may pay an additional B as you cast this spell.)
When Gatekeeper of Malakir enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, target player sacrifices a creature.
2/2

Vampire Lacerator B
Creature - Vampire Warrior
At the beginning of your upkeep, you lose 1 life unless an opponent has 10 or less life.
2/2

Vampire Nighthawk 1BB
Creature - Vampire Shaman
Flying
Deathtouch
Lifelink
2/3

[Arsenal]

What are everybody's thoughts on some of the spoiled Zendikar creatures for Sui Black? Specifically:

Bloodghast BB
Creature - Vampire Spirit
Bloodghast can't block.
Bloodghast has haste as long as an opponent has 10 life or less.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Bloodghast from your graveyard to the battlefield.
2/1

Gatekeeper of Malakir BB
Creature - Vampire Warrior
Kicker B (You may pay an additional B as you cast this spell.)
When Gatekeeper of Malakir enters the battlefield, if it was kicked, target player sacrifices a creature.
2/2

Vampire Lacerator B
Creature - Vampire Warrior
At the beginning of your upkeep, you lose 1 life unless an opponent has 10 or less life.
2/2

Vampire Nighthawk 1BB
Creature - Vampire Shaman
Flying
Deathtouch
Lifelink
2/3

Gatekeeper is the only one that seems playable. Everything else seems like a slightly different version of an already available card (Lacerator -> Carnophage) that don't see any play.

[Damnosus]

Personally, I am kinda interested in the gatekeeper as a means of pulling double duty. This is what I am currently running:

3x Polluted Delta (Only own 3/don't own any Mires)
4x Wasteland
14x Swamp

4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
2x Stillmoon Cavalier

4x Dark Ritual
4x Thoughtseize
4x Smother
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Diabolic Edict

2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Umezawa's Jitte


My thoughts are that I could switch out the two edicts for two gatekeepers. While edict is an instant, there are definitely times when it is just a dead card: gatekeeper can always be a 2/2 beater that can wear equipment. I feel that the versatility of gatekeeper will make it more worthwhile. I am curious what other people think though.

[kicks_422]

I think Edict being an instant is very valuable. An Edict with a 2/2 body has its advantages though.

[LegacyDan]

I am honestly interested in testing Vampire Nighthawk in the deck because of its evasion, 2/3 body, and it work on offense and defense with the lifelink/deathtouch. It can intercept and take down Tombstalkers and Goyfs, survives some goblins, and can get back some of the lide you lose from Confidant.

[Damnosus]

What do you plan to use the nighthawk as a replacement for?

[DragoFireheart]

I think Gatekeeper of Malakir is a sick card and is going to fly under the radar for this deck.

I mean, kill a creature and drop a 2/2 body for three mana? Doesn't care if something is black? Only problem is that it costs two, so it gets hit easy with lots of counter magic.

Though, it can hit shrouded creatures like Goose and can also kill Progenitus.

[DragoFireheart]

Has anyone tested Gatekeeper of Malakir in this deck? Seems like a excellent tempo card.

[Mesercus]

Has anyone tested Gatekeeper of Malakir in this deck? Seems like a excellent tempo card.

I tested gatekeeper and vampire nighthawk and they are both good.
Only problem with gatekeeper is topdecking one when you don't need a creature killer spell and it's just 2/2 body but it works fine.
The nighthawk is a little slow but lifelink+deathtouch+evasive are very impressive vs many decks.
Here my list:

10 swamp
7 black fetchland
4 wasteland

4 dark ritual
4 snuff out
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 nantuko shade
4 tombstalker
4 hypnotic specter
4 gatekeeper of malakir
3 vampir nighthawk

More creatures than usual but gatekeeper works as removal

[Galroth]

Likewise I tested in malakir and nighthawk and was pleased with results.

My current list:

MANA
18x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
3x Lotus Petal
DISCARD
4x Thoughseize
3x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
CREATURES/REMOVAL
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Shriekmaw
CREATURES
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Bitterblossom

Suicide black can focus more on control or tempo/aggro. I chose to go the control route. This is why several standard cards are missing. Sinkhole, Wasteland, and Tombstalker are the most notable. Great cards, but are better suited in a deck which disrupts the opponents turn 1-2 and lays down a fatty (Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf). Eva Green or Red Death are much better decks if that's the route you want to take.

Instead, I'm opting for a slower control route with a deck directed towards producing card advantage. Or at the very least giving you greater card quality (like Thoughtseize and Duress). The only card which doesn't fit this is Nantuko Shade - which is simply your late game win.

I've also included the additional mana acceleration of lotus petal. Like a first turn hyppie, a first turn confidant or bitterblossom are plays that can be game breaking. The other strong option is a first turn thoughtseize or duress followed by any of those plays.

I find that this deck is considerably better against aggro-control than most sui variants. Combo tends to be better than decks like Eva Green because of the high discard count, the extra acceleration to a hyppie, and confidant providing more of both. Control matches depend greatly on the deck your against. Aggro is always the rough part. Unlike aggro oriented suicide decks, it's foolish to ever try to race. No Tombstalker, Goyf, or Negator means it's not an option. Your higher creature count is a plus, but I don't know yet if this just means a more pro-longed death, or if this actually translates to more of a fighting chance. Having large amounts of removal is very helpful in these scenarios. But the life loss of confidant, thoughtseize, and bitterblossom makes any burn a problem. On the flip side... I'm not running sac-lands or Tombstalker with my Confidants to exacerbate the problem.

[porcupinetreeman]

I have been playing Sui Black for while now and I think I've perfected the decklist. You'd be a fool not to run Gatekeeper, he's the best part of the deck now. You can even Vorath's him back to kill everything.

I've been having some problems with goblins and burn. Any Ideas?



// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
16 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [B] Hypnotic Specter
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir

// Spells
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [B] Dark Ritual
3 [US] Duress
4 [B] Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

[Damnosus]

I would remove the 3 maindeck duresses and put 2-3 jittes in the main. They are very good against goblins. Then maybe add the new nighthawk (for the burn matchup-not great, but the lifelink is fabulous helps, plus if they kill it then that is one less burn spell going to your dome), or maybe infest for goblins, or just plain old dystopia to the spots opened in the sideboard. I know duress is good, but quite often it can become a dead card in the late game when your opponent doesn't have any cards in hand.

[Galroth]

In my opinion, Duress is strong not just for the effect, but also because it helps the mana curve. otherwise there are 8 turn 1 plays, 4 of which are Dark Ritual. That's no good.

Duress is one of the weaker cards here. But I'd consider your deck as a whole. Against burn and goblins, how important and Sinkhole and Wasteland? I don't think they're particularly valuable. In most builds they're used as a tempo boost. But in this deck, you don't have Tombstalker, Goyf, or Negator. Your strongest creature is a shade. What on earth do you need the tempo for. They're poor cards for controlling aggro decks. If that's your problem, sideline the Sinkholes and bring in Jittes.

Nighthawk is also great as Damnosus said.

[damionblackgear]

Hello, I've been out of the game for quite awhile (since about 2004 or so). And I wanted to get back in. The only tournements that are held in my area are Legacy. I used to play extended and standared so this will be even more confusing for me. I wanted to make a deck that was a little lighter on the wallet, but not just roll over and die to any good decks. So I was thinking of making mono black aggro/control. Here's my deck list:

Creatures:
3x Phyrexian Negator
I know that many people critisize him but you can't argue with a first turn swamp to dark rit to negator.
4x Dark Confidant
In all honesty, I'm still having a hard time understanding how you're not going to kill yourself with this guy. But I know the top will help with that...
4x Hypnotic Spector
Extra aggro/disruption.

Spells:
4x Duress
I'm not sure if this really needs an explanation, the standared black disruption.
4x Thoughtseize
A superb spell, first turn strategy killer.
4x Sensei's Divining Top
What makes Confidant work. I guess.
4x Diabolic Edict
Always been my favorite creature killer.
4x Dark Ritual
It makes Negator possible.
4x Lotus Petal
I double checked the banned/restricted list for this card but I couldn't find it. I could've sworn this one was banned in legacy when I used to play. Oh well, clear mana advantage.
4x Bitterblossom
I think this is a really neat card. Cool win condition.

Land:
4x Wasteland
Another excellent control card.
17x Swamp

Sideboard:
4x Withered Wretch
Always been a great choice for a multitude of decks.
3x Mutilate
Good mass removal, anti-regeneration.
4x Persecute
Probably not the best option, but can be good in a lot of situations.
4x Chalice of the Void
A very nice lockdown card when used correctly. But I do worry about it having a bad synergy with the deck.

I know this isn't the best decklist I've ever written. Which is why I'm posting it here instead of just going with it. Critiques/opinions welcome. Also, I think I could use a good explanation of the Dark Confidant/ Sensei's Divining Top thing.

Welcome back, I hope you don't mind me responding to this in the thread, I think, it will receive the best feedback in.

Your deck looks solid to a point. Negator is a great card but there is just so much that makes him worse for you now days (zoo is coming back so bolting him becomes a fear again). Most people have started to play things that are either just as good as negator was without the drawback (tombstalker). It does save 5 life to Bob though.

I agree with the Bitter Blossoms (BB) as well. I thought that they would have a stronger showing but they don't always get there alone and the life you're going to lose from Thoughtseize, Bob, and BB can start to add up quick. Umezawa's Jitte could be a way to answer that problem.

Jitte is amazing in this deck. It acts as removal, life, and creature protection, once it's active. I played a little Eva Green and Jitte saved my Hippie from getting burned down vs 2 burn players. could not have been happier.

Since you're just getting back in I would actually suggest Bloodghast in place of the Negator. He may not block (then again, neither does Negator) but he recurs and is easier to cast. It may not have haste all the time but it's definitely worth it. Especially with Jitte.

These are just the idea's that I would have to mod this deck... I do like the list though (just changing maybe 2 or 3 cards and some of their counts.

[damionblackgear]

Hello, I've been out of the game for quite awhile (since about 2004 or so). And I wanted to get back in. The only tournements that are held in my area are Legacy. I used to play extended and standared so this will be even more confusing for me. I wanted to make a deck that was a little lighter on the wallet, but not just roll over and die to any good decks. So I was thinking of making mono black aggro/control. Here's my deck list:

Creatures:
3x Phyrexian Negator
I know that many people critisize him but you can't argue with a first turn swamp to dark rit to negator.
4x Dark Confidant
In all honesty, I'm still having a hard time understanding how you're not going to kill yourself with this guy. But I know the top will help with that...
4x Hypnotic Spector
Extra aggro/disruption.

Spells:
4x Duress
I'm not sure if this really needs an explanation, the standared black disruption.
4x Thoughtseize
A superb spell, first turn strategy killer.
4x Sensei's Divining Top
What makes Confidant work. I guess.
4x Diabolic Edict
Always been my favorite creature killer.
4x Dark Ritual
It makes Negator possible.
4x Lotus Petal
I double checked the banned/restricted list for this card but I couldn't find it. I could've sworn this one was banned in legacy when I used to play. Oh well, clear mana advantage.
4x Bitterblossom
I think this is a really neat card. Cool win condition.

Land:
4x Wasteland
Another excellent control card.
17x Swamp

Sideboard:
4x Withered Wretch
Always been a great choice for a multitude of decks.
3x Mutilate
Good mass removal, anti-regeneration.
4x Persecute
Probably not the best option, but can be good in a lot of situations.
4x Chalice of the Void
A very nice lockdown card when used correctly. But I do worry about it having a bad synergy with the deck.

I know this isn't the best decklist I've ever written. Which is why I'm posting it here instead of just going with it. Critiques/opinions welcome. Also, I think I could use a good explanation of the Dark Confidant/ Sensei's Divining Top thing.

Welcome back, I hope you don't mind me responding to this in the thread, I think, it will receive the best feedback in.

Your deck looks solid to a point. Negator is a great card but there is just so much that makes him worse for you now days (zoo is coming back so bolting him becomes a fear again). Most people have started to play things that are either just as good as negator was without the drawback (tombstalker). It does save 5 life to Bob though.

I agree with the Bitter Blossoms (BB) as well. I thought that they would have a stronger showing but they don't always get there alone and the life you're going to lose from Thoughtseize, Bob, and BB can start to add up quick. Umezawa's Jitte could be a way to answer that problem.

Jitte is amazing in this deck. It acts as removal, life, and creature protection, once it's active. I played a little Eva Green and Jitte saved my Hippie from getting burned down vs 2 burn players. could not have been happier.

Since you're just getting back in I would actually suggest Bloodghast in place of the Negator. He may not block (then again, neither does Negator) but he recurs and is easier to cast. It may not have haste all the time but it's definitely worth it. Especially with Jitte.

These are just the idea's that I would have to mod this deck... I do like the list though (just changing maybe 2 or 3 cards and some of their counts.

[yugular]

I am building Mono-black deck for Legacy and any advice is welcome.

I reckon I need a pack of disrupt (discard & removal) + finishers.

What are the best options and do you recommend going on more aggro or more control style? Also manabase advice is welcome

Here is my list right now (Needs to be cutted to 60cards):
Lands:
Xx Swamps
1x Cabal Coffers
4x Wasteland
+ 4x Dark Ritual

Discard&Removal
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Unmask
4x Smother
4x Cabal Therapy (any use? sb maybe?)


Creatures
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Nyxathid
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Ashenmoor Couger

[Galroth]

In my opinion, the better option for suicide black / mono-black aggro decks is the control route. This is primarily because if you choose to go the aggro route, there are other decks out there that are strictly superior. Aggro suicide black is trumped by Eva Green in every match-up you can expect to play.

However, if you're looking to simply improve your deck, and not create an optimal variant, the aggro route or the control route are fine and you'll still have a viable deck regardless.

On to your card choices:

Cabal Coffers
This card really doesn't have a home. Your curve maxes at 3cc with the exception of Unmask which if you play, will most likely be played for free. Cabal Coffers finds its home in mono-black control decks that run cards like Consume Spirit or Staff of Domination that require the mana Cabal Coffers can offer. It really doesn't have a home in this deck.

Cabal Therapy
You don't have any good flashback targets. Cabal Therapy was popular in decks that ran the 2/2 zombie suite. Carnophage and Sarcomancy were great flashback targets. With your available creatures, you'll rarely want to sacrifice any of them for the flashback effect. Given this Hymn to Tourach, Thoughseize, and Duress are the better discard effects. The standard amount of discard effects is debateable. 8-10 is a typical number. I prefer 11 myself, along with Hypnotic Specter.

Unmask
Similary to Cabal Therapy, this card is also worse than Thoughseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Duress. It's good against combo decks that you're worried about going off first or second turn, but otherwise all your other discard effects are better. At best, Unmask is a sideboard card. However, in my opinion, you have even better options for your sideboard than Unmask.

Smother
It's a good removal option. I'd rank it right behind Snuff Out as black's best creature removal. Alright, alright... that's a lie. Gatekeeper of Malakir is probably better also, but I was thinking along the lines of instant/sorcery removal. Snuff Out is incredibly cheap and relatively easy to get your hands on. I'd recommend picking up a set. Otherwise, Smother is just fine too.

Wasteland
This is a controversial opinion of mine, so please keep that in perspective. I believe Wasteland is only worth inclusion if your deck also runs Sinkhole. The two together are a viable land destruction component. Apart, the effect is too little to matter. It seldom hurts an opponent to lose a single land over the course of a game. The land destruction component of suicide black is also better suited towards the aggro style suicide decks. They're better at hampering an opponents tempo (and generating your own) than they are at actually 'controlling' a game. That's why you use to see them in decks that packed Negator. And nowadays, in decks that run Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf.

Creatures
Before digging into which creatures are best, the question of whether or not you're going the control route or the aggro route needs to be determined. Your creature choice (and the rest of your deck also) is really dependant on that.

The standard amount of creatures to include varies, but you'll seldom see less than 18 and more than 22. You've only offered up twenty creatures, and to be honest, the gems of mono-black aggro are missing. If you're going to make any investment into this deck, you need to pick up either a set of Tombstalkers, or a set of Dark Confidants (or both). If you're going the aggro route, get Tombstalkers, if control then Dark Confidants. These two cards are suicide black's best cards (with the exception of possibly Dark Ritual). It's just too bad that Confidant and Tombstalker really don't synergize well.

If you're going aggro - keep Ashenmoor Gouger. If you're not, drop him. He has little influence on the game besides being a beater. Depending on your meta, Phyrexian Negator may even be a better choice that Gouger.

Gatekeeper of Malakir and Vampire Nighthawk are both solid cards. They can work in just about any suicide black deck and have decent results. For now, I'd keep them until you're to the point of fine tuning your deck. If you choose an aggro route, then eventually they may prove to be a little too slow. I haven't tested enough to have a definitive opinion on that.

Specter is a good standard card. Similar to Gatekeeper and Nighthawk, there's no reason to cut Specter presently. Later down the road, you may find he's not quick enough in an aggro shell. 'Til you've reached that juncture, I recommend keeping him.

Nyxathid is an interesting inclusion. If you're going to keep Nyxathid make sure your discard count is high. I'd go with atleast 12 discard effects. Though even then, I probably wouldn't run Nyxathid unless I was also running Dark Confidant. So I can ensure that I keep seeing my discard effects.

You've left out Nantuko Shade. Shade is another staple card, though less popular lately. But he can be good in both the aggro and the control varieties of suicide blacks. More important though are Dark Confidant and Tombstalker.

---
I think I've mono-logued enough. Good luck dude.

[yugular]

In my opinion, the better option for suicide black / mono-black aggro decks is the control route. This is primarily because if you choose to go the aggro route, there are other decks out there that are strictly superior. Aggro suicide black is trumped by Eva Green in every match-up you can expect to play.

I think I've mono-logued enough. Good luck dude.

Thanks for your answer! Really helped me. I quess I will try the control route first and get a set of Confidants. I have tested this deck once, when it was missing thoughtsezes and some other good cards but back then Nyxathid really shined as a 6/6 most of the time. Too bad it doesn't have evasion.

I see some builds use Jitte. Does it fit in to control shell?

[Galroth]

Sure Jitte can fit. It's quite welcome when you're not running cards like Tombstalker or Tarmogoyf and putting your opponent on a 4 turn clock. The more controlish routes need to keep the removal count high. Malakir and Nighthawk were great additions towards this end, and behind the reason I'd advocate going a more controlish route.

Also - I should probably clarify that when I recommend taking the controlish route, I'm not suggesting you play Mono-Black Control. That's a separate deck that runs Cabal Coffers, Consume Spirit, Damnation, and stuff like that. I'm referring to the creature base used in Mono-Black Aggro.

You have your more Aggro builds which tend to run cards like:

4x Tombstalker
4x Ashenmoor Gouger

In contract you have your control style builds which focus on card advantage with cards like:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Hypnotic Specter

You're going to have flavors of everything in between of course. But understand the role your deck is going to play before constructing it. The aggro variants are directed towards a couple cards of early disruption, hopefully including a wasteland or a sinkhole to set the opponent a turn behind. Then lay down a fatty and try to ride that fatty for the win.

The controlish variants aren't going that way. Instead they're relying on the card advantage generated by cards like Confidant and Specter to control the pace of the game. It's not a quick kill that you're trying to ride out. Truthfully a deck like this wouldn't be named Suicide black. It's not the suicide style of play. But here at the source the Suicide thread has become the generic Mono-black aggro thread.

Ummm - cheers.

[Mr. Durden]

I've been running suicide variants for a while now and I agree with yugular about nyxathid. He usually shines as a big beatstick and I wouldn't drop him.
For reference here is my list:

16x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Discard
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize

Creatures

4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nyxathid
3x Nantuko Shade
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tombstalker

Other

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Doom Blade
2x Diabolic Edict
4x Dark Ritual

As you can see, it's got a lot of two and three-ofs. If somebody could help me streamline it a little bit I would appreciate it. I like having a lot of removal, and doom blade's been working pretty well. Also, are the Gatekeepers an auto 4-of?

[jimirynk]

I've been running suicide variants for a while now and I agree with yugular about nyxathid. He usually shines as a big beatstick and I wouldn't drop him.
For reference here is my list:

16x Swamp
4x Wasteland

Discard
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize

Creatures

4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Nyxathid
3x Nantuko Shade
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Dark Confidant

Other

3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Doom Blade
3x Diabolic Edict
4x Dark Ritual

As you can see, it's got a lot of two and three-ofs. If somebody could help me streamline it a little bit I would appreciate it. I like having a lot of removal, and doom blade's been working pretty well. Also, are the Gatekeepers an auto 4-of?

Smother over doom blade.
With all your discard and thought seize their fattys(that don't even see play in 1.5) will be discarded by then and if something does get played you have 2x Gatekeeper.
You dont want an opponents bob/shade laughing at you the whole game.

[Curby]

I've been having some problems with goblins and burn. Any Ideas?


I'm a little surprised by this. Burn, like Stax, lives and dies by its cards as it has no way of getting more like Standstill or cheating things into play like Goblins. In my experience if I Hymned and Duressed away 2-3 burn spells, it slows him down so much that I've pretty much got the win. Alternately, I could remove a land or two and severely hamper his speed that way: burn doesn't have tricks like Vial to get around mana screw.

Admittedly, the all-commons design doesn't have as much suicide, as cards like Thoughtseize and Bob are rare. Fully powered MBAggro may get itself down into the range of his topdecked spells for the loss. Fortunately, black's a good color for life gain, so if you have a lot of burn in your meta you can prepare for that a little. The new Kird-Ape-Cockatrice-Nip-Gwyllion will be sure to help one way or another. If it gets Jitte it's just about game over for burn. Expect Smash to Smithereens/Spree once they see Jitte.

Regarding Goblins, perhaps some targeted removal would be better than more Edicts? That combined with Plague and Jitte seems like it should be enough. How does it play out when you lose to Goblins?

Btw as others have said, Jitte seems to help your worst matchups. Prime candidate for maindecking. =)

[Filth]

Apparently Bloodghast + Contamination hasn't been discussed in this thread yet. To me, Bloodghast looks like it could make the Contamination version much more playable, because a 2/1 beater that just doesn't go away can also win some control matchups on its own.

I was thinking something like this:

Land - 22
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
10 Swamp

Creature - 14
3 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk

Other - 24
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
3 Bitterblossom
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Contamination

Before I get shouted at for not including Dark Rituals, I feel the need to point out that a) I've never really played Legacy so I don't know how important the card is in real games, and b) I haven't tested this deck outside of MWS goldfishing. I'm a fan of 6+ Seize/Duress, and there just wasn't enough room for the Rituals anymore. I guess that makes this more like MBC, but I couldn't find a thread for that so I'm posting here. The list has 10 cards in it that cause you to lose life (not including fetchlands), so it's still suicide, right?

I'm building my first Legacy deck right now, and I know I'm going to be stuck playing monoblack until I get enough money for a Japanese Goyf playset and a Beta Bayou. I've never seen anyone play Contamination around here so I want to play that card. I just need some help with the initial decklist. What changes would you make to the list I posted to make it better against an unknown metagame?

[Curby]

The first thing I thought when looking at proposal of Contamination was "dang, that's MBC." You admitted that, but to keep this thread on-topic perhaps you shold start a thread for that in the New/Development section instead of posting here.

I didn't even notice that you didn't have Dark Rits because I assume their inclusion. You're forgiven for being new to eternal Magic, but you won't be forgiven for continuing without Dark Rituals in the deck. If you really think you're trying to be black aggro, your deck is broken without them.

As for the deck idea overall, I think it's neat, but it should probably be elsewhere on these forums. =)

EDIT: Whoops, ignore fetch-related rant. =)

[Nydaeli]

I think the fetches are mostly used for landfall (Bloodghast) and reshuffling for Top.

[Filth]

I think the fetches are mostly used for landfall (Bloodghast) and reshuffling for Top.

This. And I don't want to wait until I get the green stuff so I can play my Japanese fetches. It's true that 7 or 6 would probably be a better number, but I'll start thinking about that when I start playing games where the opponent isn't swimming around in a small bowl.

(And yes, I did see the fetch rant before you edited it out. :P)


As for the deck idea overall, I think it's neat, but it should probably be elsewhere on these forums. =)

Well, I didn't post here before checking if there were other Contamination lists here. (There were, on the last two or three pages even.) I didn't bother checking if they had been told to GTFO though, so maybe that's where I did wrong.

Posting somewhere else would require too much thinking (a clever thread title, for example), so I guess I'll just go back to goldfishing and ask the local Legacy players for help later. Or maybe even *gasp* test the deck against other Legacy decks. But that'll have to wait until I can find some Japanese Bobs and Jittes.

Thanks for the little help I got, anyway.

[Galroth]

More help for the contamination bloodghast list:

It's an interesting idea, and I should preface this post by stating that I'm just working off of theory, and not any testing to a list like this.

Questionable cards:

Diabolic Edict
Why is this just a 2x? I'd cut the diabolic edicts and increase Gatekeeper of Malakir from 3x to 4x (keeps a healthy amount of removal while increasing your creature count) - also your Confidant count from 3x to 4x. Confidant is probably the best creature in this deck. There is no reason to run less than 4x of one of your best cards.

Personally, I think your creature count is a little low. 14x creatures + 3x bitterblossom isn't enough. If your creatures were big finishers, it might be okay - that's the reason why Thresh, Team America, and even some builds of Eva Green can get away with it. But your creature base is composed of small creatures, not finishers (even if your creatuers are effective at what they do).

Sensei's Divining Top
I like the synergy with Dark Confidant and Fetchlands, but I don't know if this is the right deck for it. Do you really need top's ability? It's not bad, but I wouldn't call it great either. Other responses have promoted Dark Ritual... they're right. Dark Ritual is the number 1 reason mono-black decks can be broken. I'd replace top with Ritual and find some additional room. With 4x Ritual, you can probably reduce your land count by 1, possibly 2.

Other
If I had to rank your other weak cards:

The 4th Nighthawk - Solid card all around, but at the top of your curve and you really don't want to see 2 in your opening hand. Usually just 1 per game is fine for the job.

The 3rd Jitte - If you don't have your contamination lock, this is your finisher. However, you're going to need to have at least a fighting chance at board control before it's useful. Make sure you're always going to have something to equip Jitte to first (i.e. keep that creature count high).

All 4 Wastelands - Just about any deck can handle a single wasteland activation. Without additional land destruction, wasteland is pretty much only useful as a way to generate some type of faux-tempo in the early game to stall for an extra turn for you to push more damage through. Problem is, your deck isn't designed for that type of play. You don't have large beaters that can finish the game early. Otherwise, it's not really a good control element in this deck. I'd ask yourself if it's needed, or if you could cut all 4 wastelands and replace them with 2 swamp and add in those Dark Rituals. I should add the disclaimer that not everybody shares my opinion on this matter.

--
As an after thought, Buried Alive is extremely good for getting the Bloodghast engine rolling. Not sure if it's the right fit, but just a thought. I've been tinkering with several ideas along these lines, but nothing that I like yet.

[Curby]

Re: your passive aggressive comments, sorry if I seemed too unwelcoming. That's not my intent, but it would be nice to keep threads on topic. You would get more and better help from others who are trying similar ideas and looking for relevant threads. I'm sure you could have come up with a thread topic in the time it took you to explain why you were too lazy to do so. For example, "Contamination/Bloodghast Black Control Deck." Of course, you have to consider whether clever names or getting constructive help is more important to you. If you really want to take this DECK in a more aggressive direction, then by all means let's get to it. =)

For example, is there a good way to boost Bloodghasts besides Jitte? If the point is to somewhat blindly send them in again and again, might as well make Goyfies take pause. 2/1 doesn't present much of a threat. I kind of like Grafted Wargear for this. Once you get it on the field, you don't need to spend more mana to move it to a fresh Bloodghast for meaningful beats.

[Jon Stewart]

Meh, I don't get why people are attacking you so much.

Contamination is a cool card. If you can somehow make it work, it's worth doing. Unfortunately, I don't think you can make it work.

Bitterblossom is too inconsistent. The only way to consistently have a combo with Contamination is to also play 3-4 Crucible of Worlds, alongside 4 Bloodghast, 4 Mishra's Factory, 4 Wasteland, and 6 Fetchlands. At that point, you're no longer playing black aggro and are straight up better off playing Black Stompy.

I think the feedback you got is solid. Here is what I would run...

Land - 21
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

Creature - 20
4 Bloodghast/Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Vampire Nighthawk

Other - 19
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Removal

Just a suggestion.

Alternatively, if you really have 8 fetchlands to spare, you could play...

Land - 21
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
8 Fetchland
8 Swamp

Creature - 19
4 Bloodghast/Nantuko Shade
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Vampire Nighthawk

Other - 20
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Snuff Out

And as others said, the main cards that I'm not sold on are...

Bloodghast
Vampire Nighthawk

You could cut them for something else, for example Duress and Pithing Needle. (If Duress or Thoughtseize reveals a fetchland in your opponent's hand, Pithing Needle becomes a 1cc Sinkhole).

[Filth]

Looks like more people have replied to my deck idea. I guess I'll have to keep talking about my deck in this thead. :/


Grafted Wargear
Buried Alive

I just wanted to start this post by saying that these cards look like really good additions to the deck. Buried Alive can't be more than a 1-of (the second one would always be a dead card), and Wargear could be a 1- or 2-of. Wargear also looks good on a Nighthawk. Thanks for these suggestions. They're both cards that don't see a lot of play, and I like building decks that are somehow different.

@ Galroth: While some of your suggestions are good, you're suggesting taking out 33% of my life gain stuff plus the Tops that prevent me from dying to Bob too often. This deck is slower than the average monoblack deck, so I need cards that help me survive the constant damage from both my own and the opponent's cards. I can cut one Jitte, but the Nighthawks and Tops stay until they prove themselves suboptimal. I'm also adding the fourth Bob, so the Tops become more relevant.

@ kirbysdl: That's a really generic and unimaginative thread title. :| A clever name for the deck is definitely more important than how good the deck is.

And you didn't sound unwelcoming. I understand wanting to keep the thread on-topic. Which is also why I'm trying to make the deck aggressive enough to fit here. Also, if I sounded rude, it's simply because I can't see the rude parts in my own posts. I'm a weird person in that I always smile while writing, and I never mean to convey any negative emotions through my posts on the internet.


1) Bitterblossom is too inconsistent. 2) The only way to consistently have a combo with Contamination is to also play 3-4 Crucible of Worlds, alongside 4 Bloodghast, 4 Mishra's Factory, 4 Wasteland, and 6 Fetchlands. At that point, you're no longer playing black aggro and are straight up better off playing Black Stompy.

1) Bitterblossom is a threat that doesn't die to one (non-Deed) sweeper, and just keeps providing beaters for Jitte in addition to just fueling Contamination. It's also a Forcefield against Goyf or other big beaters. Bloodghast can't chump block, so it's good to have Blossom there to make up for that.
2) Don't think of Contamination as a "combo" piece. It's more like a Chant that stays online as long as you can feed it. Even if you just have one Bloodghast, one fetch, and one Swamp, it's three turns of the opponent doing nothing (barring Vial or artifact mana tech, which is why I cut Contaminations down to 2 in the newer list). It tends to become a permanent lock if you have Blossom or Confidant + Bloodghast, though.

The lists in your posts are more traditional monoblack lists. I don't really like Specters, Shades, or Sinkholes at all.

Might as well post the updated list now that I'm replying...

Land - 20
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
11 Swamp
1 Leechridden Swamp

Creature - 18
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Tombstalker

Other - 22
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Bitterblossom
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Grafted Wargear
1 Buried Alive
2 Contamination

Dark Rituals became much more attractive now that there's a possibility of a turn 1 Buried Alive into three 2/1s on turn 2. :P And of course fetchland + double Ritual into turn 1 Stalker. I guess they're good cards overall. 99% of monoblack players can't be wrong.

I cut the Wastelands for two lands and two Tombstalkers. Leechridden Swamp is basically a "Why not?" choice, because it's fetchable, and I never had trouble getting the mana I needed with just the 18 Swamps (including fetchlands). Now I have 19 Swamps plus an on-color land that gives some lategame reach - especially with Bloodghasts being black permanents that just don't go away. The ability even gets around Solitary Confinement! How cool is that?

[Mr. Durden]

Is there a pretty standard sideboard for suicide? Or are there at least some staples that I should consider? My current sideboard is:

3x Engineered PLague
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Extirpate
1x PLague Sliver (there's a sliver guy in my meta)
3x Perish
3x Sudden Spoiling

Sudden SPoiling is obviously the weakest card. It's done some phenomenal things for a three mana card, and it can't be countered or responded to, which is a huge plus. I tried infest, but it didn't seem to do as much as I wanted it to, as not many of the creatures I see in my meta are that small.

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

[michaelq]

Is there a pretty standard sideboard for suicide? Or are there at least some staples that I should consider? My current sideboard is:

3x Engineered PLague
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Extirpate
1x PLague Sliver (there's a sliver guy in my meta)
3x Perish
3x Sudden Spoiling

My board is:

3x Perish
4x Extirpate
4x Pithing Needle (mainly for top in CB matchup, also for stax)
4 meta slots (extra jitte, duress for combo)

[Curby]

1x PLague Sliver (there's a sliver guy in my meta)


One of the golden rules of sideboarding is using cards that are generally useful, unless you have a particular matchup or weakness that you're trying to shore up. How worried are you of Slivers?

This should be a 4th plague even if you are worried about them. If they aren't playing green, all you need are plagues. If they are playing green, run Extirpate and suddenly they aren't playing green anymore. Having played Countersliver against rock, I can tell you that Extirpating a killed/Perished/Thoughtseized Muscle or Sinew Sliver is HUGE. Get both RFGed and it's pretty much game.

[Mr. Durden]

Thanks for the tip. I'll make that switch now. Has anybody considered the merits of Sudden Spoiling or Infest or Damnation as sideboard sweeper? Or are they not needed at all in favor of cards that shore up harder matchups?

Edit: didn't see michaelq's post. I would definately run pithing needles if I had any, mostly to shut down jitte as black has no other way really to do that, and because CounterTop is being phased out in my meta in favor of zoo and other aggro or aggro control decks (like merfolk).

[yugular]

Thanks for the help so far. This is the current stage of my building process:

Lands: (17+4)
17x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual (yes its not a land)

Creatures: (20)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Nyxathid

Discard effects: (12)
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach

Removal: (4)
4x Smother

Equipment: (1)
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Total 58 cards

Now I need more help :) As you see I am taking the control route and ignored Wastelands for now as I dont have sinkholes.

Keep in mind that there is room for two additional cards in the deck. What should I do for those slots?


1. Add fetches to thin the deck? Is 17 Swamps the right amount btw?
2. Add 2xUnmask to help Nyxathid?
3. Add one Jitte + something?
4. Is Sign in Blood any good?

[MDCEternal]

A couple of things:

1. I'm not a fan of Sign in Blood because it loses you so much tempo. What you really want to be doing early on is either attacking their hand or laying a threat. SiB does neither. Admittedly it lets you draw into threats, but by essentially giving up a turn (and you will unless you've got a Dark Ritual, because of how few lands Suicide Black runs) you're allowing the opponent to either stabilise (if they are a control deck) or take the initiative (if they are another aggro deck) to say nothing about giving combo another turn to go off. The Confidant, while vulnerable, can at least attack and doesn't require any additional mana once he gets going.

2. Gatekeeper is a solid card, especially if you expect a lot of creature decks. But, and this is the critical thing, if you're not playing against creature decks, or if you can't find the third black, he's really just a generic 2/2 for 2cc, which isn't really all that great. I think having 3 of him is enough, especially since you're running the 4 Smothers. The thought of seeing two of him in my opening hand is not particularly appealing.

3. I'd run a second Jitte. If you're going to try and take advantage of it, then you need to be able to draw it reliably, something that isn't going to happen with only a single copy, even with the Confidants.

4. Most Suicide Black decks run 21 land, although only 17 of those are typically swamps (I'm counting fetch lands as swamps), but I always feel a little nervous running less than 18-20 lands, just because I've been mana screwed enough time to want a few more lands.

5. I'd consider Cabal Therapy. Admittedly the flashback cost can be aggravating, but you're running 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Duress - you will probably be able to see into their hand. If worse comes to worse, you can always pitch a Confidant to it if your life total gets a little low and you do run enough creatures to be able to consistently get another creature up and running.

[MDCEternal]

Hi guys, I've got a tournament coming up soon and I'm planning to take something like the follow and I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have.

Creature

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir

Other Spells

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Sinkhole (Yes, only 3 because that's how many I have...)
3 Smother

Lands

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
9 Swamp

I'm especially curious to know what you guys think about the creature base. Originally I didn't have the Confidants and ran 4-ofs of everything else but during testing there were games where I would start off explosively with LD and disruption only to run out of threats. If the Confidant lives then he'll dig into threats, if he dies then that's one less removal spell that I need to strip away using discard. My other thought is to cut the Tombstalkers to 2 and up the Hypnotic Specters to 4, but I think the Tombstalkers are good enough to risk the lifeloss although that could become an issue considering that I run Thoughtseizes and fetch lands. Although Thoughtseize costs life I do like it's ability to remove creature threats preemptively.

[Galroth]

MDCEternal - The deck is filled with your standard set of mono-black aggro staples. It will perform fine, but there is still a lot of room for optimization. Your creature base looks confused.

Let's start with just theory. What role are you trying to play in a standard game? Are you trying to be the beat-down player? Or are you trying to play the control role?

Are you aiming for a deck that plays 1-2 elements of disruption, backed by a fatty who will push through for the early win? Or are you looking at card-advantage and board control to control the pace of the game?

I say your deck looks confused because Sinkhole, Wasteland, & Tombstalker are cards that are great at playing the suicide black aggro-tempo / beatdown role. Dark Confidant and Hypnotic Specter are cards that are great at card-advantage and board control. I think you really need to choose which path you want to dedicate your game-plan to, then include cards that are more directed towards that path.

If beat-down: Then checkout Ashenmoor Gouger, increase Tombstalker to 4x and get rid of Confidant, replace Smother with Snuffout (snuff-out is better for a tempo-oriented game). Nyxathid isn't bad in the beatdown role if you're discard effects are kept high. If you go with thethe beat-down role, your creature count will (surprisingly) probably be less than in a control role. This is because you only need to ride 1 or 2 fattys for the win. A single Tombstalker hitting the board can win it for you. I'd also consider running Phyrexian Negator if your meta doesn't have large amounts of aggro and burn. Negator is still better at the beatdown role than Tombstalker is in any meta like that.

If control: Then your aiming at creatures that can get 2 for 1. Increase Hypnotic Specter and Gatekeeper of Malakir to 4x. Give Bitterblossom consideration, because likewise it's often a 2 for 1. And look at Vampire Nighthawk. It's a swiss army knight that can be excellent at helping control the pace of a game. Without Tombstalker you don't need fetchlands, unless you want to include Sensei's Divining Top, which isn't a bad idea, but I haven't tested it enough to know if it's actually good.

Good luck at your tourney.

[MDCEternal]

Galroth: Thanks for the feedback. I've done some more testing over the last day or so and while the Confidants do give you better card draw they don't exactly put your opponent on a clock and the lifeloss is enough to dent your chances against another aggro deck. With Confidants out, the Smothers can go out with them for Snuff Out

I will probably thus increase the Tombstalkers back to 4-of. I had originally had the Gatekeepers at 3-of because functionally, I expect them to act like Diabolic Edict on a 2/2 body. While this makes them essentially a poor draw against combo or control, it does have its uses against other aggro decks, especially against something like Zoo that can usually push through a couple of creatures through our disruption.

With regards to the Hypnotic Specters, perhaps I am being sentimental, but I do like the fact that generally they have to be answered immediately or the opponents already damaged hand becomes completely unplayable. With regards to Negators etc. I have a feeling that the meta will be split between counter-top and the more popular aggro-ish strategies like Zoo and Goblins. I'm tempted to run Negator anyway, just because if he resolves early vs control he is usually enough to win on his own. Against aggro though, you're right, he is a poor choice and something like the Gouger or Nyaxthid would be better.

[Galroth]

Y'know, as a last thought you might look at running Bloodghast also. I have absolutely zero testing with Bloodghast, but it might give you a decent mid/late game beater that's hard to stop. Just brainstorming.

If you go with Nyxathid, I'd probably keep specter around also. If you decide on Negator, Malakir's ability to help clear the board becomes more effective.

And if you're dropping Confidants, definitely pick up Snuff-Out. The life loss hurts much less and it is much better than Smother otherwise!


EDIT: Hell, you could even run Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths. If they focus on getting rid of Tombstalker or another of your heavy beaters, Hexmage's ability will eventually kick in.

[MDCEternal]

Galroth: Bloodghast isn't horrible, because short of being hit by Swords or Path to Exile he will probably just keep coming back. The problem is that I don't think he puts the opponent on a fast enough clock. Suicide Black relies so much on the ability to disrupt the opponents hand and land and then play a big guy that the opponent cannot easily answer or race. Bloodghast may be hard to kill but the clock he sets is too slow. That said, I think he'd do great in a Black Aggro deck focusing on small fast creatures and some disruption.

[Dilettante]

MDCEternal: Something else to consider if you are taking the aggro route is to have a 'sealing' card, such as Nether Void (if plausible to acquire), played a turn after your beater, using your sinkholes early and wastelands later to maintain tempo/softlock, particularly against combo decks trying to go off that you've disrupted, using Snuff Outs as you cast to clear board position. Bloodghasts just aren't worth it... unless you are doing something like playing Meekstone and swinging with Shade/Bloodghast/Hyppie.

[MDCEternal]

Dilettante: That would be cool but sadly I don't have any. If I go the aggro root, the only "little" creatures I play must be more than just 2/2 bodies. The Gatekeeper acts as an extra set of removal spells who just happen to have a 2/2 body attached - this is, as Galroth pointed out, helpful if you're going to drop something like the Negator into play. The Hypnotic Specter also has the advantage of being able to destroy an opponents hand if not answered quickly.

I was playing some games against my brother's Solidarity deck and strangely enough, I was often happier to see an early Hypnotic Specter than any other creature. While the Tombstalker puts them on a quicker clock, Hypnotic Specter + Discard Effects basically disables their ability to combo off. Similarly, resolving a Hypnotic Specter against a control deck or combo deck can quickly disable their ability recover or put them into topdeck mode.

[Galroth]

You're probably right about Bloodghast being too little to make a real difference.

I love Hypnotic Specter, and I play specter in my mono-black aggro deck. But I also pursue a control game instead of the beat-down role. So I end up pairing it with confidant and the likes. I can see the reason a lot of people cut specter from their decks. Solidarity is where specter can really shine, but faster combo decks can play right through specter nowadays. And for a combo deck like Ichorid, half the time you're just helping them with specter.

I still think it's a solid card, and if you're comfortable with it, then play it. But if I had a guess, eventually you'll cut it because it's just not quick as other options.

--
Had another errant thought: if you're seriously considering running Negator, you might also consider running Shriekmaw as a 2x or 3x. You'll want as many removal effects as possible to ensure you're swinging free. And you probably don't want those removal effects to be dead draws. Shriekmaw can also act as a mid-game finisher. Not much blocks him - even if he's a slow clock. The versatility could make Shriekmaw useful though.

[MDCEternal]

After reading through the comments here and doing a bit more thinking as well, here's what I'm taking:

Creatures

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Nantuko Shade

Other Spells

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Snuff Out
3 Sinkhole

Lands

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
9 Swamp

So as you can see I've cut the Hypnotic Specters. This is something I'll have to watch carefully at the tournament to see whether or not I miss them. I hope having 12 discard spells is enough. On the other hand I've upped the Gatekeepers to 4-of and added Negators as a 4-of. Some of you may find the Negators weird, but considering that the amount of discard in the deck and the Gatekeepers acting as removal 5-8, I think that they have a place. Not to mention that against control or combo they are by far the most dangerous creature in the deck because of the clock they put on an opponent running only direct (i.e., not damage-based) removal.

[Galroth]

Dark Ritual has to stay. I'm guess this was just oversight. But otherwise, I think it looks good. It seems, less confused. To get Dark Ritual back in... well you can cut a land or two. And you probably don't need a full 8 turn 1cc discard effects. Having 7 or 6 still places one in your opening hand with very high likelihood.

Your weakest spots now imo: the 8th and possible the 7th duress. Afterwards, probably the 4th shade. A solid card, but not something you ever need 2 of in your opening hand, and a much better mid-game card than an opener. On the other hand, running less than 16 creatures can get risky quickly.

I'll be interested to hear your reflections on whether or not cutting specter felt right; and also on how Negator performs. Good luck on your match-ups.

[keys]

Sorry to chime in so late, but Negator is such a liability when the most popular deck in the format plays around 10 burn spells. Vampire Nighthawk is such a beast, I would definitely swap those two. I'd also consider putting Specter back in... I think he's better than Shade.

4 Tombstalker
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Umezawa's Jitte (insane with every creature in this deck)

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Marsh Flats
9 Swamp

Also you need a SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
3 Duress

That is one fine list if I do say so myself.

[Arsenal]

I'd probably want some Dystopia and/or Perish in the board with the rising popularity of Zoo, and the ever-present annoying-ness of Goyf/Mongoose in UGx decks.

[MDCEternal]

Galroth: Haha... I just realised that I did leave the Dark Rituals off the list. It's funny, I aleady have them locked in in my head so it's easy to forget to write them down - don't worry they are the absolute last thing to leave the deck. I also put Hymn to Tourch twice - yep, definitely projecting what I WANT the deck to have not what is ALLOWED. LOL.

One sad thing... my family is buying a new TV and being the person most knowledgeable about that stuff I've been press-ganged into going along on the day of the tourney. So it turns out I might not be able to make the tourney. However there will be one the week after and the week after that too, so I'll get back to you about those. On the upside... I do get a new TV out of it.

keys: The Nighthawk also came up during testing... he's definitely at least decent. My main issue is that against control or combo he does not represent a fast enough clock. His deathtouch and lifelink are also not particularly useful vs control or combo because once control has lock you're dead anyway and combo can play through him without fear. That said, at least against aggro he will draw a burn spell or a removal spell away from your bigger guys.

With regards to the Negators... I don't know exactly what the meta will be. Over the next month there will be a tournament every week and so I will get a better idea of what to run. At the moment I anticipate more control and combo, hence the Negators but if I'm wrong and there is a lot of Zoo or burn then I'll drop them for either Nighthawks, Nyathids, or Ashenmoore Gougers.

On a sidenote: I'd even considered going to an old-school suicide black build that looks a lot more like a mirror of White Weenie and running equipment.

[MDCEternal]

keys: Your sideboard is identical to mine with the exception of Duress, which I have main deck. In it's place I was thinking of having Perish or Extirpate.

[MrShine]

Phyrexian Negator and Vampire Nighthawk seem to want the same spot in the deck depending on what meta you expect to face... So while the sideboard is pretty tight, has anyone considered keeping 4 slots for a creature switch for the control/aggro matchup (depending on what is preboarded)? I guess what one would have to consider is the relative merit of improving either match with creatures vs any other sideboard cards that this strategy would occupy. That being said, it seems that said creatures (Negator/Nighthawk) may be useful across a variety of matchups, making up for the diminished sideboard space. Just a thought.

EDIT: for example (supposing Nighthawk is being played maindeck), I would keep Nighthawks in vs zoo, merfolk and canadian thresh, while Negator would come in vs landstill, MUC and combo matchups like ANT, Solidarity (if that still pops up in your meta) and maybe even Ichorid (depending on how saucy you feel)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Phyrexian Negator and Vampire Nighthawk seem to want the same spot in the deck depending on what meta you expect to face... So while the sideboard is pretty tight, has anyone considered keeping 4 slots for a creature switch for the control/aggro matchup (depending on what is preboarded)? I guess what one would have to consider is the relative merit of improving either match with creatures vs any other sideboard cards that this strategy would occupy. That being said, it seems that said creatures (Negator/Nighthawk) may be useful across a variety of matchups, making up for the diminished sideboard space. Just a thought.

EDIT: for example (supposing Nighthawk is being played maindeck), I would keep Nighthawks in vs zoo, merfolk and canadian thresh, while Negator would come in vs landstill, MUC and combo matchups like ANT, Solidarity (if that still pops up in your meta) and maybe even Ichorid (depending on how saucy you feel)

If you do this, Negator definitely goes in the sideboard. I think these days it's just too risky to run him in the main, unless you have like 95% knowledge of what decks are going to be at the tournament... Which is kind of an impossible amount of metagaming to even be able to do accurately.

[MrShine]

If you do this, Negator definitely goes in the sideboard. I think these days it's just too risky to run him in the main, unless you have like 95% knowledge of what decks are going to be at the tournament... Which is kind of an impossible amount of metagaming to even be able to do accurately.

My thoughts exactly. His inclusion in the board depends on how much he improves the matchups he is good in (control/combo), and the effectiveness of such a plan over cards that could improve various other matches.

That being said, what are the control matchups like for Sui Black? I can see discard being good against a variety of decks but I suppose the impact is mitigated to a different degree based on the opponents ability to recover from such an assault (Ie, amount of card draw or inclusion of Spell snare/daze to stem the discard). Counterbalance seems like it could be problematic if tombstalker doesn't show up.

@ keys - you say negator is a liability due to a high amount of burn being played in top decks (zoo, Canadian Thresh), so why would Specter be a good idea either? He dies the same to burn; two toughness is almost asking to get 2 for 1'ed (assuming Dark Rit is involved; specter isn't exactly relevant vs these decks T3)

[Phoenix Ignition]

@ keys - you say negator is a liability due to a high amount of burn being played in top decks (zoo, Canadian Thresh), so why would Specter be a good idea either? He dies the same to burn; two toughness is almost asking to get 2 for 1'ed (assuming Dark Rit is involved; specter isn't exactly relevant vs these decks T3)

Because burning Spector is just(hah) a 2 for 1, while burning a Negator is a 3 or 4 for 1, or a complete board reset if they have 2 bolts. Spector can also lock down games better since he isn't completely disabled by a goyf, and can wreck people's lategame plans.

[MDCEternal]

That being said, what are the control matchups like for Sui Black? I can see discard being good against a variety of decks but I suppose the impact is mitigated to a different degree based on the opponents ability to recover from such an assault (Ie, amount of card draw or inclusion of Spell snare/daze to stem the discard). Counterbalance seems like it could be problematic if tombstalker doesn't show up.

The Negator enforces a much faster clock. Assuming that you only have one creature in play, the Negator enforces a four turn clock whereas the Nighthawk takes ten turns to kill the opponent. Against combo and control packing Swords/Path and not burn, I've found that the Negator has a much more threatening presence on the board. Against aggro though, the Nighthawk's deathtouch and lifelink must be answered. That said, I'm experimenting with Gatekeeper of Malakir to see if he can occupy the 3cc spot as a removal spell. If I don't like him I'll probably just put the Nighthawk/Negator in there.

[jazzykat]

I think you should run a few unearth/reanimate in your list. Theres not too much larger a kick in the balls then to make someone discard their Tarmogoyf and then reanimate it.

Also, depending on the matchup Negator still has the ability to get shit done. He is much less powerful than he once was but against decks w/o burn he ends the game/stat. Check out Putrid Leach as an alternative.

[Mr. Durden]

Hey guys I top four'd today (4-1) at the local 25-man tourney with my sui variant. My rounds were: Burn (loss), Rock(Win), Elves (Win), Merfolk (Win), and ANT (Win). Top four split.

I've considered Negator but there's just too much Burn, Aggro, and Zoo in my meta that he would be a pain more often than he would win games. Instead I use Nyxathid, which won me almost every game he came down. I added two Nighthawks, which were awesome but too slow to up the count until I get Jittes.

Are Jittes generally reccommended? If so, what should I get first, Jittes or Needles?

[Galroth]

If your meta is burn, aggro, and zoo then go with Jitte. An active Jitte will win you those matches. Pithing needle is still a good sideboard option. Only advice when including Jitte is to make sure your creature count stays high enough to support an active Jitte.

EDIT: Also, congrats on your win. Burn is definitely one of Sui's hardest match-ups. Nice to see you win all the matches that Sui should win. I find Elves can also be difficult, depending on the particular build you're facing. So nice job there as well.

[Mr. Durden]

If your meta is burn, aggro, and zoo then go with Jitte. An active Jitte will win you those matches. Pithing needle is still a good sideboard option. Only advice when including Jitte is to make sure your creature count stays high enough to support an active Jitte.

EDIT: Also, congrats on your win. Burn is definitely one of Sui's hardest match-ups. Nice to see you win all the matches that Sui should win. I find Elves can also be difficult, depending on the particular build you're facing. So nice job there as well.

Thanks man. Yea burn is a rough one, but I find that Nyxathid helps if I see one soon enough cuz he's almost always at least a 6/6 there.

As far as Jitte goes, my meta also has a substantial countertop presence, and many merfolk, so is it still good against control decks? Or is something like Sword of light and Shadow better?

[Galroth]

In truth, I like Sword of Light and Shadow just about as much as I like Jitte. Jitte typically wins out because of the lower mana curve, and because it is better at controlling the board. Jitte's advantage doesn't mean much against CounterTop though. I find that when I was running Jitte, I would board it out against CounterTop. It's not really essential to beat that deck. Against Merfolk it's fine.

Against CounterTop and Merfolk instead of more equipment, I'd probably just pack more threats. Gatekeeper of Malakir is one that I'd make sure to include. Anything that offers card advantage is great against blue. CounterTop in particular is very weak against resolved removal. But against red dominated aggro deck, Jitte is king. Life + board control straight up wins it for you.

[necrowil]

Okay. So this leads me to a possibly dumb question- why, with a badass discard package, does no one run hatred decks anymore? Are the creatures just too small? Something like-

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Duress
4 Unmask
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Hatred
4 Dark Ritual
4 City of Traitors
16 Swamp

Is it because people are afraid of daze and FoW? That's what the discard is for. This deck used to win on turn four fairly consistently with a possible turn two kill. What happened to this deck?

tsup guys. i was hoping to get back into some discussions complete with tournament reports on the viability of hatred now. i haven't really been able to find any forums to discuss hatred for a while. i also have read all the reasons why folks say it is not worth playing and too risky and so on. perhaps you all are right. its not a percentage card, but suicide has never really been a percentage deck. hatred, even when popular was always a risky play in a field which always included burn and counters. i also think hatred requires some skill to play well. you may want to look at this. i used to discuss the deck here

http://forum.tcgplayer.com/archive/index.php/t-686.html

with a couple of other guys who played the deck. ages ago i qualified for nationals when it was legal. of course the sideboard is the most important part of playing a deck like hatred. the main deck in my opinion is only designed for beating control, the board is mainly for other aggressive decks. it seems like the field now for the most part is evenly split so perhaps this is not the deck to play.

i really like 3deuce's list here. not sure where he pulled it from, but i played around with it online, and it seems solid. only thing i would change is this.

-4 diabolic edict
+4 umezawa's jitte
-4 carnophage
+4 vampire lacerator

hatred simply should not need removal that is 1 for 1. personally, i don't think removal belongs in suicide which is already working off card disadvantage from dark ritual. suicide can't afford to go 1 for 1 against another deck unless there is some significant advantage to it. but i think hatred is made for jitte for several reasons.

turn 1 sarcomancy
turn 2 ritual, jitte, equip swing

and yes cards like
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Duress
4 Unmask
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hatred
4 Dark Ritual
4 City of Traitors
16 Swamp

so that is what i would do to 3 deuce's deck which if you test it out, ain't too bad. the jitte is primarily used to draw their counters and removal until you can draw your hatred combo and cast it.

also, many correctly argue that their are no good black tutors in the game so hatred sucks because black no longer has access to vampiric tutor, demonic consultation, or demonic tutor. yeah, maybe, but hatred when it was first legal did not have tutors and people still died to it left and right so, maybe it doesn't need it. even so, i threw together a version which uses imo the only thing close to a tutor black has.

4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Duress
4 Unmask
4 Tainted Pact
4 Hatred
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snow-covered Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors

yeah, i know it looks janky. but the truth is, limiting the number of cards to 4 or less helps Tainted Pact do its job which is finding something to kill your opponent.

the reason you see Snow-covered Swamps in the deck is Tainted Pact
the reason you see Vault of Whispers in the deck is Tainted Pact
the reason you see Chrome Mox is speed and Tainted Pact

you are searching usually for hatred, ritual, negator or unmask. duress can be cut. i don't believe you actually need it in the deck. BEEFED and i determined that anyone not playing threats in the game is doing themselves a disservice. hell, BEEFED had great success with the deck and actually play NO DISCARD spells. bottom line is play threats. person with the most and longest standing threats wins. to this end, you only need Unmask when you are about to cast Hatred. if you need it at all. Unmask is only in for that reason. Duress is extra and could be cut. You may want to start Jitte in the Duress slot depending on the metagame.

the current metagame doesn't seem to call for the need for a tutor in this deck. so Tainted Pact is probably not necessary. if the field were all Ad Nauseum Tendrils then yeah, i would play 4 Tainted Pact, but its not. the version with 4 pact does beat down tendrils fairly easily.

anyone who plays this deck should also know every possible way it can be stopped (ie., daze, swords, force of will, lightning bolt, counterspell, fireblast or whatever). if you aren't familiar with everything that can wreck your plans and are not willing to play around it, this ain't the deck for you.

again, main deck is for control decks so your win conditions are hatred or negator really. that's it. this brings us to the board.

sideboard
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Shriekmaw
4 Dystopia
3 Umezawa's Jitte

the board is made for one thing. board advantage. you play something, he loses something. that's board advantage and keeps you ahead in a race. bout the only card i would add is 1 Spinning Darkness and maybe 1 Kaervek's Spite to the main deck. the board works surprisingly well against aggressive decks especially if they get a slow start and most aggressive decks are slow currently in the format.

boarding in up to 28 creatures plus cards like jitte and dystopia which sweep your opponents cards into the graveyard are the only way to go. bottom line is it is a proven strategy that works. playing more dudes then the other guy and especially dudes that remove their dudes. same exact strategy i used to get into nationals with hatred. i started 22 dudes and after boarding was up to 30 guys including massive removal guys like Masticore and main deck Cursed Scroll which i am not sure if either is viable anymore due to Tarmogoyf.

bottom line is black has so much removal, you simply add enough to remove your opponents threats. if you can't fit it in the side, go main deck jitte and add more to the board. and yep, often i will side in all 15 cards. have no problem doing that. it usually throws people off as they are seeing all these new cards come out of your hand.

their are other issues with the deck like play chrome mox AND unmask is not usually a good thing. you may want more shadow creatures like dauthi horror and cut a few skirge. the deck may also want cards like null rod in the board to deal with countertop, but that's what discussion is for. i realize this is the Suicide Black discussion. Hatred is just another arch type of Suicide Black. most of the decks posted look more aggro control black more then anything else to me. to me Suicide has always meant beatdown.

anyway, i want to open discussion on hatred decks here. even if its just me and someone like 3deuce, someone who obviously likes the deck. regardless of how widely unpopular it is and how many things that can stop it. it looks like you have discussed Suicide Black into the ground so why not play around with Hatred? it can still kill on turn 2 :)

anyway just food for thought.

peace.

necrowil

“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

[kicks_422]

No love for Vampire Nighthawk in Hatred builds? It can help you in games where you're behind in life so that you can still use Hatred. And it also has evasion!

[necrowil]

ya i really don't know about vampire nighthawk. i guess the question becomes what do you cut for it? it might be a good sideboard card? i was actually considering making the entire deck vampire hatred with all vampires just because that card looks like it would be a huge asset to hatred, but i don't know that either. it may be a good idea since you can make all the vampires fly fairly easily and pump them up. although you are leaving the deck open to sideboard cards like engineered plague. i actually made some changes after testing today.

sideboard
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 shriekmaw
3 umezawa's jitte
3 perish
1 spinning darkness

main
18 swamp
4 dark ritual
4 culling the weak
4 duress
4 unmask
4 hatred
2 reckless spite
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

of note perish seems better then dystopia in this deck, since you really just want to sweep guys out of the way and swing. the same is true for reckless spite which basically does the same thing. i used it on two tarmogoyf quite a few times and its and instant, so the 5 life makes it more then worth it.

also culling of the weak was added for things like gatekeeper and getting out shriekmaw faster and proved to be invaluable with sacking negators as well. now that there is no mana burn. no real reason not to.

[Galroth]

Ideas: Instead of Culling the Weak for your mana acceleration, try out Lake of the Dead. It's a little easier to get into play, and if you really need to, you can use it multiple times.

Reckless Spite is kinda sweet. I'm not sure how well it works in a Hatred build just because you need to have the life advantage to pull off Hatred. Nonetheless, I'm tempted to include it in other builds of Suicide/MBA because I'm also a firm believer that Suicide/MBA really need card advantage to pull out wins.


Last Thought: When I tried to integrate Hatred into modern Suicide/MBA I preferred to not dedicate the deck solely to playing Hatred. Instead, I liked it better when including as a side plan. It forces the opponent to play around the card, while not hamstringing yourself by playing some sub-par cards.

Cards like Vampire Nighthawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir are still great in Hatred decks. Tombstalker still isn't bad. I tried a build with 3x Hatred, no search, Jitte, and Sword of Light and Shadows to make my 1 drops better. It had a little more success for me than a straight Hatred build, though I admit I didn't give that much time testing it.

[Robert the Bruce]

Hello all,

Very long-time reader, but first-time poster.

“Negatred” decks have always been a favorite of mine.

This is a list I have had some success with lately.

4-Sarcomancy
4-Vampire Lacerator
4-Carnophage
4-Dauthi Slayer
4-Phyrexian Negator

4-Duress
4-Unmask

4-Diabolic Intent

4-Hatred

4-Dark Ritual

4-City of Traitors
2-Lake of the Dead
14-Swamp

The sideboard is in flux at the moment. Perish is a staple so far.
I have also been pretty successful sideboarding out Hatred and Diabolic Intent for Tombstalker and Gatekeeper of Malakair in some matches. Need to test this more though.

A few conclusions I have reached:
-Duress is very important. Unless your metagame is extremely creature heavy it should always be kept around, at least in the sideboard. With a deck like this you want to put lots of creatures on the board quickly. Thus, taking that Swords to Plowshares/Force of Will/etc. from your opponents hand in the first turn or two will often win you the game.
-If trying to win via casting Hatred as soon as possible, having two non-evasive creatures on the board quickly is often better than having one with evasion. Hence the inclusion of Carnophage over Skittering Skirge.
-Lake of the Dead is usually pretty effective. It is not good to see more than one though.

Still testing Diabolic Intent as Hatred’s # 5-8. This is another reason for using Carnophage over Skittering Skirge. So far it has been decent.
Has anyone else tested this card?

[Wargoos]

Hello all,

Very long-time reader, but first-time poster.

“Negatred” decks have always been a favorite of mine.

This is a list I have had some success with lately.

4-Sarcomancy
4-Vampire Lacerator
4-Carnophage
4-Dauthi Slayer
4-Phyrexian Negator

4-Duress
4-Unmask

4-Diabolic Intent

4-Hatred

4-Dark Ritual

4-City of Traitors
2-Lake of the Dead
14-Swamp

The sideboard is in flux at the moment. Perish is a staple so far.
I have also been pretty successful sideboarding out Hatred and Diabolic Intent for Tombstalker and Gatekeeper of Malakair in some matches. Need to test this more though.

A few conclusions I have reached:
-Duress is very important. Unless your metagame is extremely creature heavy it should always be kept around, at least in the sideboard. With a deck like this you want to put lots of creatures on the board quickly. Thus, taking that Swords to Plowshares/Force of Will/etc. from your opponents hand in the first turn or two will often win you the game.
-If trying to win via casting Hatred as soon as possible, having two non-evasive creatures on the board quickly is often better than having one with evasion. Hence the inclusion of Carnophage over Skittering Skirge.
-Lake of the Dead is usually pretty effective. It is not good to see more than one though.

Still testing Diabolic Intent as Hatred’s # 5-8. This is another reason for using Carnophage over Skittering Skirge. So far it has been decent.
Has anyone else tested this card?

With zoo being most popular and a DTB as well as canadian ******** seeing more play Negator seems like not the first choice if you really want to win.
Aren't there alternatives?
What about Vampire nighthawk.
Flies and gives you a "free" hatred.

[Robert the Bruce]

I did test Vampire Nighthawk. While it does look good on paper, I found them to be somewhat unsatisfactory and eventually went back to Phyrexian Negator.

The biggest issue I found with Nighthawk is that with its 2 power body for a casting cost of 1BB, it is not much of a clock on its own. Your opponent can often afford to ignore it for a turn or two while they stabilize. This is a big issue with this deck, with its very heavy beatdown focus coming at the expense of board control elements.
In short, the lifelink is nice but just not enough…

Another issue I found with Nighthawk is, rather surprisingly, the double black in its casting cost. There were several games where if I could have cast either it or Negator on turn two it would have won me the game. Instead I looked at my Swamp and City of Traitors on the board and wished I had Negator in hand.
(On a sidenote I am looking for a replacement for Dauthi Slayer for much the same reasoning).

Regarding Phyrexian Negator in general, its drawback is indeed annoying at times. However, it is not nearly as often as might be expected. It is a card your opponent usually has to deal with right away (Hatred or no), and you can actually buffer it somewhat by sacrificing Sarcomancy enchantments and City of Traitors (which are likely go into the graveyard soon anyway).
I do generally side them out versus decks like Zoo though, usually for Perish.

[Damnosus]

Try Dauthi Horror-easier to cast with one less toughness.

[Galroth]

All of this talk about Hatred in suicide black had me brainstorming what an optimal modern hatred build would look like. I disagree with the route most of the lists posted have been taking. Hatred may have used 1cc 2/2s in the past to ensure that it had the higher life total than your opponent, but back then it also had Demonic Consultation to ensure that you would see Hatred at the right time.

Hatred decks used to play more like a combo deck than an aggro deck. That was the whole point of running Unmask in Hatred decks, to ensure that when you were ready to cast the spell, there was nothing that an opponent had to stop you (very similar to how ANT plays Orim's Chant).

Hatred was successful at the time because suicide black was the most aggressive deck out there and would gain the early board advantage and have the higher life total. That's not true in this environment. Zoo, goblins and several other decks are better at the beatdown role. I very much disagree with trying to use cards that are now antiquated, and building off a deck design philosophy that doesn't work with out present card pool and the current meta game.

That's not to say that I don't think Hatred could be an awesome card - it does present an interesting design direction. However, since there is no search to guarantee a Hatred when you're at a superior life total, I think it should be relegated to a supplemental strategy. Don't break yourself trying to integrate Hatred. It's better used as a trump card that your opponent has to play around... or they die.

The other reason Hatred could be viable, is because of two new black creatures that have lifelink! Lifelink + Hatred = Free Hatreds... which win games - that's really all there is to it.
A list:

Creatures (21)
4x Child of the Night
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Shriekmaw
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
Discard (10)
4x Thoughtsieze
3x Duress
3x Unmask
Other (4)
4x Hatred
Mana (25)
4x Dark Ritual
2x Lake of the Dead
19x Swamp


The whole idea is to use a near standard suicide black build while devoting limited space to integrate Hatred. Below are the card choices which aren't part of standard suicide blakc builds.

Child of Night - A strictly sub-par black creature. But godly with Hatred. Game 2 and 3 your opponent is going to use their tarmogoyfs as blockers for fear of Child of Night hitting them for lethal or near lethal damage with no cost to you.

Shriekmaw - I chose not to run any non-creature black removal spells in favor of Shriekmaw and Gatekeeper of Malakir. You still want to get Hatred through if you can, but you can't afford to not have a board presence. Shriekmaw servers double duty. And lastly, if somehow they're also blocking your flyers, it's harder to block a creature with fear.

Unmask - Hymn to Tourach is better in a standard build. But when you're actually ready to cast Hatred, Unmask is more castable. Tangent: why Thoughtseize and Duress over Hymn to Tourach? Same reason + This decks curve is dangerously high, so more 1cc plays are needed.

Lake of the Dead - It's Dark Ritual 5 + 6... and it's reusable. It's better than running Culling The Weak because you're not sacrificing your board presence for the extra mana. Lake of the Dead is also great at making sure Tombstalker and Shriekmaw see play.

Last note: I think Hypnotic Specter is actually the most questionable card. However, if there is something I've learned. It's often not right to save a Dark Ritual in your opening hand on the chance that you may draw in to Hatred. Use the Dark Ritual and cast the first turn Specter. Play the deck like modern suicide black and use Hatred as a trump card.

[necrowil]

Hello all,

Very long-time reader, but first-time poster.

“Negatred” decks have always been a favorite of mine.

This is a list I have had some success with lately.

4-Sarcomancy
4-Vampire Lacerator
4-Carnophage
4-Dauthi Slayer
4-Phyrexian Negator

4-Duress
4-Unmask

4-Diabolic Intent

4-Hatred

4-Dark Ritual

4-City of Traitors
2-Lake of the Dead
14-Swamp

The sideboard is in flux at the moment. Perish is a staple so far.
I have also been pretty successful sideboarding out Hatred and Diabolic Intent for Tombstalker and Gatekeeper of Malakair in some matches. Need to test this more though.

A few conclusions I have reached:
-Duress is very important. Unless your metagame is extremely creature heavy it should always be kept around, at least in the sideboard. With a deck like this you want to put lots of creatures on the board quickly. Thus, taking that Swords to Plowshares/Force of Will/etc. from your opponents hand in the first turn or two will often win you the game.
-If trying to win via casting Hatred as soon as possible, having two non-evasive creatures on the board quickly is often better than having one with evasion. Hence the inclusion of Carnophage over Skittering Skirge.
-Lake of the Dead is usually pretty effective. It is not good to see more than one though.

Still testing Diabolic Intent as Hatred’s # 5-8. This is another reason for using Carnophage over Skittering Skirge. So far it has been decent.
Has anyone else tested this card?

you really want culling of the weak in this deck. i think also you don't want diabolic intent as your creatures are your primary source of killing your opponent. supposed it gets countered. then you are kind of screwed. i played around with intent for a while. i don't think the card disadvantage is worth whatever card you find. also if you are playing intent, you don't need so many copies of hatred if you can tutor for it.

culling of the weak allows you to cast hatred consistently on turn 2 or 3 assuming you have a duress or unmask before you do so.

you ritual out zombie shadow creature and then unmask, culling the weak, hatred, game over. in your deck, you ritual out a creature then search for something with intent. then how do you go off on turn 3?

also, city of traitors is ok in this deck, i just find more swamps to be better.

and lake of the dead is a 2 of max card. it has to be the biggest wasteland/sinkhole magnet. culling of the weak sits in your hand. people tend to ignore it with thoughtseize. you are more likely to keep it.

also in your deck with city negator is better. in my current build i'm am trying to lose negator and testing nighthawk, but yes i came to the same conclusions about you did regarding its not much of a clock and hard to cast with city.

the thing is i think there may be a build out there without which is worth looking at. i just don't know what it is yet.

[necrowil]

Try Dauthi Horror-easier to cast with one less toughness.

people are shying away from 2/1 creatures because of darcast and cards like fire/ice and engineered plague. dauthi horror is good though and may be a better way to go then negator however.

[necrowil]

All of this talk about Hatred in suicide black had me brainstorming what an optimal modern hatred build would look like. I disagree with the route most of the lists posted have been taking. Hatred may have used 1cc 2/2s in the past to ensure that it had the higher life total than your opponent, but back then it also had Demonic Consultation to ensure that you would see Hatred at the right time.

Hatred decks used to play more like a combo deck than an aggro deck. That was the whole point of running Unmask in Hatred decks, to ensure that when you were ready to cast the spell, there was nothing that an opponent had to stop you (very similar to how ANT plays Orim's Chant).

Hatred was successful at the time because suicide black was the most aggressive deck out there and would gain the early board advantage and have the higher life total. That's not true in this environment. Zoo, goblins and several other decks are better at the beatdown role. I very much disagree with trying to use cards that are now antiquated, and building off a deck design philosophy that doesn't work with out present card pool and the current meta game.

That's not to say that I don't think Hatred could be an awesome card - it does present an interesting design direction. However, since there is no search to guarantee a Hatred when you're at a superior life total, I think it should be relegated to a supplemental strategy. Don't break yourself trying to integrate Hatred. It's better used as a trump card that your opponent has to play around... or they die.

The other reason Hatred could be viable, is because of two new black creatures that have lifelink! Lifelink + Hatred = Free Hatreds... which win games - that's really all there is to it.
A list:

Creatures (21)
4x Child of the Night
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Shriekmaw
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Tombstalker
Discard (10)
4x Thoughtsieze
3x Duress
3x Unmask
Other (4)
4x Hatred
Mana (25)
4x Dark Ritual
2x Lake of the Dead
19x Swamp


The whole idea is to use a near standard suicide black build while devoting limited space to integrate Hatred. Below are the card choices which aren't part of standard suicide blakc builds.

Child of Night - A strictly sub-par black creature. But godly with Hatred. Game 2 and 3 your opponent is going to use their tarmogoyfs as blockers for fear of Child of Night hitting them for lethal or near lethal damage with no cost to you.

Shriekmaw - I chose not to run any non-creature black removal spells in favor of Shriekmaw and Gatekeeper of Malakir. You still want to get Hatred through if you can, but you can't afford to not have a board presence. Shriekmaw servers double duty. And lastly, if somehow they're also blocking your flyers, it's harder to block a creature with fear.

Unmask - Hymn to Tourach is better in a standard build. But when you're actually ready to cast Hatred, Unmask is more castable. Tangent: why Thoughtseize and Duress over Hymn to Tourach? Same reason + This decks curve is dangerously high, so more 1cc plays are needed.

Lake of the Dead - It's Dark Ritual 5 + 6... and it's reusable. It's better than running Culling The Weak because you're not sacrificing your board presence for the extra mana. Lake of the Dead is also great at making sure Tombstalker and Shriekmaw see play.

Last note: I think Hypnotic Specter is actually the most questionable card. However, if there is something I've learned. It's often not right to save a Dark Ritual in your opening hand on the chance that you may draw in to Hatred. Use the Dark Ritual and cast the first turn Specter. Play the deck like modern suicide black and use Hatred as a trump card.

because of the changing formats and cards, the deck has change. i would call it aggro-control-combo. with the aggro being the quick threats, control would be the disruptive elements and hand destruction and combo would be the hatred kill. i also think pursuing them in that order makes the most sense. that being said, hatred is a win condition. ritual negator is a win condition. that's basically how the deck wins is those two conditions. u might get a good creature rush, but probably not before your opponent stabilizes.

the utility design you speak definitely exists. you might read BEEFED posts. he had a really strong utility build that worked a lot. keep in mind this was for extended when tempest block was still in extended in 2005. now of course its not anymore. but his points about the deck have been thoroughly proven to be on the money. here are some of his quotes:

http://forums.mtgnews.com/showthread.php?t=146811&referrerid=36212
http://forum.tcgplayer.com/archive/index.php/t-686.html
http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?t=686

BEEFED was like the master of playing a combination utility/hatred deck. but his testing was extensive and for a long time his deck ran NO hand destruction. later he added mesmeric fiend.

his philosophy was simple. you keep playing threats to kill your opponent until they are dead. your opponent plays threats and so do you. whomever survives the other threats wins.

so i'm sure a version using utility and hatred exists where you are not relying on hatred, but i'm not sure what that might be.

[necrowil]

Hey crew,

So after playing around with Diabolic Intent a bit and looking over old posts from BEEFED and the Bruce’s post, I made the following changes.

I went up to 28 creatures to basically insure I wouldn’t mind sacrificing one for Diabolic Intent. This is the best tutor we have now, so we might as well use it. However, I think you need to run a much heavier creature base. Typically, Skittering Skirge gets sacrificed to Culling the Weak or Diabolic Intent.

Also, I have been testing Gatekeeper main deck and Mesmeric Fiend main deck and I like both cards a lot. I just like Skittering Skirge a lot in any deck you have to sacrifice creatures. They work well with things like Cabal Therapy.

Also, running Sarcomancy, Vampire Lacerator and Fledgling Djinn means running Phyrexian Negator. Simply because you may want to sacrifice cards which are damaging you too much. I just moved Negator back to main after trying out Gatekeeper and Fiend main deck. I think Fiend was probably better to start then Gatekeeper. Removing a card from the game is nice. A lot of times you would hold a gatekeeper back and wait for your opponent to play a threat and that is not what this deck is meant to do. Though removal main deck is nice, it seems its fine without it as well.

Also, I cut Carnophage because I don’t want too many guys who can be stopped by Chalice of the Void for 1.

Also in discussion about Dauthi Horror and replacing Dauthi Slayer in Bruce’s deck I remembered Fledgling Djinn which fits very nicely in this deck. This brings your total number of evasion creatures to 16 which is very, very, tough to stop. Negator is almost overkill.

I removed Reckless Spite because I wanted a different kind of removal. The life loss was Ok, but I wanted better. I tried Withering Wisps which is like Pestilence for 3 which is pretty good game finisher and thought about Kaervek’s Spite which I may add but decided on Spinning Darkness.

All the other cards in the board are real solid though I may want more discard to deal with Ad nauseum Tendrils, but here it is.

18 swamp
4 dark ritual
4 culling the weak
4 hatred
2 diabolic intent
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi slayer
4 fledgling djinn
4 phyrexian negator
4 hypnotic specter
4 skittering skirge

4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 mesmeric fiend
3 umezawa's jitte
3 perish
1 spinning darkness

I would like to run Extirpate in the board. One note about Extirpate. In this deck, its really good to Extirpate at the end of your opponents turn so you can see their hand and then cast Hatred on your turn if they don’t have anything. Even though that’s good the card has limited use here I think.

What ends up happening is you use Diabolic Indent to finish your opponent off, so you end up casting Hatred for like 6-9 life which is not huge even if it gets stopped.

The thing about not running discard main is against most of the field now you do not need discard. You only need it vs certain types of decks and you can bring in Mesmeric Fiend then. And 4 gatekeeper is really strong in this deck. Occasionally you wish you had discard or removal, but for most matchups like against Zoo or Eva Green or agro this is the way you want to run.

Also, you may want to move Diabolic Intent to the Sideboard as well, but so far the deck seems to be fine.

Peace.

Necrowil

“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

[Galroth]

4x Mesmeric Fiend
4x Hypnotic Specter

Suicide black has neutered its combo game.

No Thoughtseize, Duress or even Hymn to Tourach? In the legacy general meta, suicide blacks best match-ups fall in the combo/control area. This is purely conjecture, because I haven't tested any Beefed lists, but it looks like your sacrificing where Suicide Black accels most for matches that will still be questionable.

I can see Beefed being better than a normal sui build against Zoo, Goblins, possibly Burn. But Solidarity, ANT, Dredge, etc will absolutely rock you. Seriously, Beefed, while awesome for its time is an out-dated version of MBA decks. Having that high of a creature count may work against creature heavy decks, but against current combo decks it's going to fail hard. Even against decks like Survival Elves, or 43 land I'm not sure Beefed has an improved game.

Cool idea to toy with and look for possible innovation, but man combo is gonna rape you!

[EssKay]

Has anyone considered Bitterblossom in one of these hatred-type builds? It's a real pain to deal with if they can't counter it, and it gives you a constant source of fuel for Diabolic Intent, Culling the Weak, and chump blockers if you're staring at some fatties on the other side of the table.

[Robert the Bruce]

Has anyone considered Bitterblossom in one of these hatred-type builds? It's a real pain to deal with if they can't counter it, and it gives you a constant source of fuel for Diabolic Intent, Culling the Weak, and chump blockers if you're staring at some fatties on the other side of the table.

I tried bitterblossom early on. It is too slow.

[Robert the Bruce]

My current deck (which I am thinking of taking to a local tournament coming up soon).

4-Sarcomancy
4-Vampire Lacerator
4-Carnophage
3-Skittering Skirge
4-Priest of Gix
4-Phyrexian Negator

4-Duress
2-Unmask

3-Diabolic Intent

4-Hatred

4-Dark Ritual

4-City of Traitors
2-Lake of the Dead
14-Swamp


A few notes and findings:

-I tested Culling of the Weak quite a bit, but ended up opting not to run it (and instead running the land based mana accelerants) in order to keep down on the number of creature sacrifice effects required. This allows a somewhat less creature heavy design to be used than otherwise would be necessary, which in turn allows the use of Duress and Unmask in the maindeck. I have found this to be just enough disruption to give you the edge you need in many matchups.

-Priest of Gix. In my testing so far, this guy is surprisingly powerful. With him plus the full suite of 1cc 2/2 zombies and lacerators, an opening hand with dark ritual in it can be pretty broken. Following up a turn 1 swamp with a turn 2 City of Traitors+Priest of Gix+whatever else you have in hand is not bad either.
I will be testing him more, but so far he seems to be adding a lot to the deck. In many cases it now seems as fast as (or even faster than) many Zoo decks I have seen lately.
Another benefit of using Priest of Gix is that it seems to help a bit with the “double black mana/City of Traitors” problem that I mentioned a couple posts back. For this reason Skittering Skirge is tentatively back again in the main deck.

-Diabolic Intent used almost exclusively to fetch Hatred (and thus win the game in short order). In this role it functions similar to Demonic Consultation in the days of yore (albeit not quite as powerfully). Three seems to be the correct number for this build so far.

[necrowil]

My current deck (which I am thinking of taking to a local tournament coming up soon).

4-Sarcomancy
4-Vampire Lacerator
4-Carnophage
3-Skittering Skirge
4-Priest of Gix
4-Phyrexian Negator

4-Duress
2-Unmask

3-Diabolic Intent

4-Hatred

4-Dark Ritual

4-City of Traitors
2-Lake of the Dead
14-Swamp


A few notes and findings:

-I tested Culling of the Weak quite a bit, but ended up opting not to run it (and instead running the land based mana accelerants) in order to keep down on the number of creature sacrifice effects required. This allows a somewhat less creature heavy design to be used than otherwise would be necessary, which in turn allows the use of Duress and Unmask in the maindeck. I have found this to be just enough disruption to give you the edge you need in many matchups.

-Priest of Gix. In my testing so far, this guy is surprisingly powerful. With him plus the full suite of 1cc 2/2 zombies and lacerators, an opening hand with dark ritual in it can be pretty broken. Following up a turn 1 swamp with a turn 2 City of Traitors+Priest of Gix+whatever else you have in hand is not bad either.
I will be testing him more, but so far he seems to be adding a lot to the deck. In many cases it now seems as fast as (or even faster than) many Zoo decks I have seen lately.
Another benefit of using Priest of Gix is that it seems to help a bit with the “double black mana/City of Traitors” problem that I mentioned a couple posts back. For this reason Skittering Skirge is tentatively back again in the main deck.

-Diabolic Intent used almost exclusively to fetch Hatred (and thus win the game in short order). In this role it functions similar to Demonic Consultation in the days of yore (albeit not quite as powerfully). Three seems to be the correct number for this build so far.

ok to date, we have not a sideboard from you. its important because, its how the deck wins and loses. more games are played with the sideboard then without so, here is my version at the moment

hatred

land
18 swamp
2 lake of the dead

spells
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 hatred
3 unmask
2 diabolic intent
1 culling the weak
1 spinning darkness
1 kaervek's spite

creatures
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

sideboard
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 extirpate
3 umezawa's jitte
2 cursed scroll
2 perish

i have to say again extirpate is my favorite graveyard destruction card. not only is it an instant at split second speed i can cast at the end of my opponents turn, it lets me see if they have anything to stop me casting hatred or kaervek's spite. and btw, playing one kaervek's spite allows me to tutor for it with diabolic intent and finish my opponent off.

while priest of gix can be explosive, it is still a 2/1 for 3. he is not a true fix to your mana issues. add a swamp. you will be surprised at the difference between 14 and 15. i guarantee you won't miss one city of traitors if you cut one. also, lake has to hurt in your deck when you play it at times. you sacrifice a swamp and if city of traitors on the board, you sacrifice that was well all for a temporary advantage. this is the 1st time i have seen them in the same deck.

keep in mind diabolic intent is a tutor so you can play 1 of's in the deck like tutoring for kaervek's spite to kill your opponent. demonic consultation could not do that as you needed multiple copies. also, if i'm playing lakes, i want a lot of swamp if i'm going to start sending them to the graveyard 1 and 2 at a time.

also if you are running priest of gix you should consider culling the weak again. you can get up to 6 mana on turn 2 with city of traitors and priest of gix.

[Robert the Bruce]

My sideboard is currently:

4-Perish (Comes in against Zoo, Elves, etc. Either Phyrexian Negator or Diabolic Intent are usually sided out for them.)
4-Gatekeeper of Malakair (Comes in versus non-green aggro, and anything that plays a few large threats (such as Aggro-Loam). Usually some combination of Skittering Skirge, Phyrexian Negator, and/or discard spells is sided out for them).
3-Extirpate (Trying this out. Comes in versus graveyard dependent strategies such as Loam. Usually replaces discard spells)
3-Umezawa’s Jitte (Comes in versus decks like Goblins and Merfolk. Hatred, Diabolic Intent, and/or discard spells are generally sided out for them).
1-Unmask (Comes in versus control or combo).
I tried Tombstalker in the sideboard for a while too, in place of the Jittes. Sometimes he is great, but other times you simply do not fill your graveyard quickly enough for him.


I have cut Lake of the Dead from the deck for the time being. The reason is that I have found that your chances of beating a modern aggro deck (particularly Zoo) hinge on getting as many guys into play as you can on turns 1 and 2. The mana acceleration from Lake of the Dead will not kick in until turn 3 at the earliest, which is sometimes a bit too late. Against other, less aggro-oriented decks it can still be quite good, but this is sometimes offset by it’s being a huge wasteland target.
My manabase is currently:
3-City of Traitors
17-Swamp

The single copy of Kaervek’s Spite in the main deck looks interesting. May try that out too.

[necrowil]

hey guys,

well i finally think i decided on a build i'm happy with now. seems to do quite well against the field now too. basically what happened was i decided to test out cabal therapy which i like may more then duress. then i started to run extirpate main deck which seemed silly. both are strong sideboard cards. i dropped duress and unmask as i was kind of unhappy with them. therapy and extirpate are different and more effective in some ways and less in others. basically i wanted 8 spells like that. i finally decided to main deck a lot my sideboard cards i bring vs aggro. the result is something like 5 color black. don't know if you remember that deck but it has a lot of creatures with come into play effects. the result does very good against aggressive decks. very, very good i might add. for control i just side in the therapy and extirpate and call it day. that seems to work pretty well too. the only card i was not sure about and am still not sure about is the 15th sideboard card.

i also reluctantly added wastelands as certain lands in the game were giving the deck a hard time. also i know the deck is vs control combo game 1. the sideboard is strong against control/combo.

hatred

sideboard
4 cabal therapy
4 extirpate
3 umezawa's jitte
3 perish
1 nevinraal's disk/diabolic intent/spinning darkness/kaervek's spite

main
16 swamps
4 wasteland
2 lake of the dead
4 dark ritual
4 hatred
2 diabolic intent
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi slayer
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 phyrexian negator
4 shriekmaw
4 skittering skirge

so anyway, that's it really. i was surprised i actually like diabolic intent. aggainst aggro you should be in pretty good shape. against control game 1, just go for hatred. i'll post some tournament reports.

[Maximus009]

I'd run smother over edicts to help your game over zoo and the like.

[necrowil]

yeah i think we tested both edict and smother and decided its not worth it in hatred

i think you are referring to diabolic intent

Diabolic Intent

Sorcery, 1B (2)
As an additional cost to cast Diabolic Intent, sacrifice a creature.

Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

we are using 2 or 3 of these to search for hatred.

[necrowil]

only change i made was to the main deck and added 1 Soul Spike to replace Kaervek's Spite.

Card type: Instant

Casting cost: 5BB

Card text: You may remove two black cards in your hand from the game rather than pay Soul Spike’s mana cost.

Soul Spike deals 4 damage to target creature or player and you gain 4 life.

the main difference is that Kaervek's costs BBB which is harder to cast and Soul Spike costs only 2 black cards

where this makes a difference is combo decks like Ad Nauseum Tendrils. typically they will combo down to 5 or less life with Ad Nauseum. against us they have nothing to worry about right? wrong. this card is black direct damage as an instant. it's also good for finishing an opponent off without counters off.

but the real advantage is it makes Hatred no longer a dead card. say you're opponent's health is higher then yours so you can't cast Hatred and you have multiples. throw them to Soul Spike.

lastly, Soul Spike works well with Diabolic Intent. after you have swung with all your guys and your opponent has 4 life or less, just Diabolic Intent for the 1 Soul Spike in your deck and kill them. game.

I would actually like to add another to the deck but i don't think there is room.

i'm using 1 spinning darkness in the board instead.

oh and lastly my favorite thing that soul spike does is kill Planeswalker cards quickly before the become a problem.

this is like a slightly more expensive black fireblast. more expensive in that you are sacrificing black cards instead of land. but i think 1 is definitely worth it, 2 probably as well, maybe 3, and 4 probably not.

[necrowil]

i have no love for this card in this deck. turn 3 is good enough to kill on. first, if you kill on turn 3 with lake of the dead, you can actually have 6 mana allowing you to leave an extra mana for daze or actually duress your opponent before you cast hatred.

personally, i don't think with negator in the deck you can really afford to lose permanents with only 20 real land in the deck. also, with Diabolic Intent you can't kill them before turn 3 anyway.

Turn 1: You dark ritual out two creatures
Turn 2: You attack and then sacrifice one creature to Diabolic Intent to get your missing combo piece for Hatred
Turn 3: You cast Hatred with Lake and/or Dark Ritual.

If you have a City as your 2nd land drop and you need to drop another to Duress them then, you have to cast Hatred in your main phase which may not be optimum either.

[Benie Bederios]

personally, i don't think with negator in the deck you can really afford to lose permanents with only 20 real land in the deck. also, with Diabolic Intent you can't kill them before turn 3 anyway.

Uhm... if you can't lose permanents because of Negator isn't City of Traiters better than Lake of the Dead??? Lake of the Dead is a non-basic lands wich costs you at least 1 swamp and a second to use it.
City of Traitors only cost you one land at max. I like Traitors to because it allows a second turn Phyrexian Negator. Lake of the Dead doesn't come online until turn 3.

- Benie

[necrowil]

i'll try them out in my current build and see what happens

[necrowil]

i didn't really expect to see this deck in a tournament as it can easily be stopped by force of will can't it? i guess the board in therapy or something. this was on magic-league.com

game 1: i play some creatures and have him down to 5 or so before he can go off and play belcher and kill me. of note is the tinder wall did slow down my zombies a bit which bought him enough time to find his combo.

0-1

board in
+4 cabal therapy
+4 extirpate
-4 gatekeeper of malakir
-4 shriekmaw

game 2: swinging most of the game with vampire, skirge and sarcomancy. 1st turn with dark ritual i take goblin charbelcher and lions eye diamond with cabal therapy sacrificing a skirge. he draws cave in to clear my side of the board and gets belcher out, but i am able to finish him with hatred after dropping a sarcomancy.

1-1

game 3. again i take charbelcher early on and zombie and skirge. he is able to find another though and uses lions eye diamond to go off.

1-2

only thing i can think of differently is to mulligan until i see a piece of my combo as he was doing. live and learn

[Curby]

i didn't really expect to see this deck in a tournament as it can easily be stopped by force of will can't it?

Not only that but Spell Pierce and Daze. Three Swamps and Dark Rit is Dazeable. Two Swamp and Lake is Pierceable.

Smaller Hatreds combined with lifelinkers is pretty neat, but Path/Swords/Bolt in response to Hatred sucks as it's always sucked, and the critters are small enough to fold to pretty much any removal.

Hatred in this deck is like Berserk in Stompy: the big, highly disruptable play that wins out of nowhere. I wonder if analyzing that deck could help us gain some insights and/or make a hybrid out of the two.

[necrowil]

guys,

well you guys are right of course about city of traitors. Entomb is now the defining card in the format. I can’t believe they unbanned that card. First turn iona is basically scoop for us. Fortunately there is a sideboard answer. We have one thing in our favor. Black has always been a strong color or play when the format is broken in terms of discard like unmask and graveyard destruction, black is the best.

sideboard

4 faerie macabre
3 umezawa’s jitte
3 perish
2 reckless spite
2 soul spike
1 spinning darkness

Faerie macabre is pretty much the only and fastest way to stop 1st turn graveyard abuse. You play it for free in response to reanimate or dread return or whatever. Extirpate was fine, but now even 1 black may be not fast enough, after all, we are tapping out for creatures. I was going to test withered wretch but its probably too slow.

Soul spike is an unusual but great utility card. I continue to find new uses for it. Like today I learned, its good vs dredge when they cast Dread return to kill your own guy and remove their bridges from the game.

Also, soul spike is one of the few ways to kill annoying planeswalkers.

Main deck

12 swamp
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 sinkhole
4 hatred
2 diabolic intent
2 soul spike
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

I would like to add one more swamp to the main deck. One of my issues with city of traitors was the deck needs wastelands. You have to have an answer to deep depths, maze of ith, volrath’s stronghold, mishra’s factory. Because you are no longer running lake of the dead, you don’t need as many swamps. So 13-14 land is fine. 12 is pushing it. but since people use path to exile another spinning darkness would be nice for red decks.

Reckless spite is actually really good in this deck with all the life gain here. It’s also a reason I want one more spinning darkness in the deck.

As far as sinkhole, well I began to notice how much time I gained by using wasteland on my opponents 1st few lands especially if they went to fetch them. Sinkhole basically buys you a turn to set up. If you draw them late you can save them for soul spike.

The deck plays like a land destruction deck with hatred in it at times. The extra turns help a lot with the deck.

[Benie Bederios]

12 Swamps with Sinkhole, Slayer and Skirge isn't good enough. You won't find Dark Ritual every game... My Most colourless manabase was 15 Swamp, 4 Wasteland, 3 City of traitors. With that I barely managed the double black( and I played only Slayer and Hatred with double black.)

- Benie

EDIT: PS. why are we discussing the Hatred build? Isn't it just worse than the normal build, which isn't tier 1/2 either?

[necrowil]

12 Swamps with Sinkhole, Slayer and Skirge isn't good enough. You won't find Dark Ritual every game... My Most colourless manabase was 15 Swamp, 4 Wasteland, 3 City of traitors. With that I barely managed the double black( and I played only Slayer and Hatred with double black.)

- Benie

EDIT: PS. why are we discussing the Hatred build? Isn't it just worse than the normal build, which isn't tier 1/2 either?

yes. i agree about the swamps of course. that's why i stated it above.

hatred has proven to be good in the past when the field is mostly control/combo oriented. it can kill on turn 2 and 3 which alone imo makes it worth considering.

whatever you mean by the normal build i would say no its not worse if you have the right build.

and tier 1/2 is subject to debate. unless there is a site somewhere i don't know about. you could look at top 8 lists sure. but that is how hatred became a top deck. people came playing others and the few who were playing hatred won a lot of matches.

my play experience is any deck in the hands of an experienced or good player can do well. i have found its more about the player then the deck. lot's of players copy the top decks and play them to dismal finishes. it depends on playstyle as well. regardless of the field, you usually found dave price playing an extremely aggressive deck.

just look at b/w pikula as well. no one at the time would have said that was tier 1/2 deck before the tournament he won with it. but the fact is he has played since the 90s on pro tour circuit. maybe i'm biased because hatred got me into nationals. but isn't that what discussion is for. to find the right build if one exists.

if not, play something else

[Galroth]

I have to disagree with Necrowil on most points.

I've tested near every build of suicide black, and I do believe the hatred builds to be worse. They're damn fun to play, because Hatred is an exciting card. But they're worse, even against control and combo builds.

While there is no strict definition of what tier 1 and tier 2 is, several sites including this one, attempt to help the community define this using various standards. The decks which are included in the DTB forum have all met an objective standard more concrete than the elusive terms of tier 1/tier 2. Suicide black doesn't meet The Source's objective standard, much less any other standard I've seen for Legacy's top tier's of decks. Even if I look at all reported Top 8 deck lists on deckcheck.net for Legacy under Suicide or MBA, it's near impossible to find a deck that runs Hatred. I think it's fairly safe to state that Suicide, and particularly so, Hatred builds of Suicide are not tier 1/tier 2 decks.

If a "right" build of Hatred exists which is at the same or at a better competitive level of the more modern builds, than it certainly hasn't shown itself. I'm not trying to spur innovation here, but let's not make Hatred builds into something they're not, at least until they actually prove to be good. In the mean time modern builds of Suicide do put up numbers, even if they are few.

And while forums are generally meant to discuss improvements to a deck, technically the Established Deck forum is for discussing an "established" deck list. The Hatred build varies considerably from a standard list, but I also have no cause to complain about discussion of this list because the vast majority of the Suicide Black thread already contradicts this principle. It's become the forum just to discuss any general mono-black aggro list, not a single established list. I'm certain I've posted lists that vary so much from the norm that posting them should rightfully go in the New and Development forum.

Back to Hatred...

The problems with Hatred are:


1) You need to have a higher life total than your opponent to use it effectively. Which constrains the deck to an aggressive, low cc creature base for a superior early board position - these creatures are largely considered sub-optimal.

2) The 5cc cost of Hatred forces the deck to run additional mana-acceleration, which isn't used for anything else, further constraining the deck design with cards that are exceptionally conditional.

3) There is no guarantee that once you've paid the cost of Hatred, you'll see the effect. Which means Hatred decks are forced to run discard elements with the intended purpose of ensuring that Hatred goes off without hitch.
The effect of Hatred is awesome, but too conditional, very risky, and it forces bad deck design by opting for creatures, mana-acceleration, and discard effects that are generally considered sub-optimal for supporting a single card that we don't have a good search mechanism to ensure that it's available when needed.

Furthermore I disagree with the direction the Hatred lists that have been posted are progressing. Old Hatred decks used to run both Duress and Unmask to protect the combo. And back then it had a decent game against control and combo decks largely in part because of this. The latest lists posted have only 4x Duress, which will be rarely enough to disrupt modern combo decks, which are not only faster than combo of old, but also better protected (via orim's chant, force of will, etc.)

Modern builds of Suicide black which run 8-12 discard effects are, without doubt, far better suited against combo decks. I'd speculate the same holds true for the control matches. In addition Hatred decks were always weakest against aggro decks. In this modern meta, where Zoo and the like are rampant, Hatred builds can't expect to muster early control of the board.

I've been hoping that Lifelink, which bypasses the issue of having the life advantage, would help improve the aggro match up. But from what I've tested, even if I include Child of Night and Vampire Nighthawk, you still have to actually damage your opponent instead of watching your critters burned to a crisp or blocked. No success.

I don't see a positive difference any any match-up by adding Hatred and hurting other elements of deck design. At least, not at this point. I'm hoping some more bad-ass life link vamps come out in Worldwake. 'Cause Hatred is still a riot to play. I like risking it all. It just doesn't pay-off enough.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

*SPOILER*:

Is it just me, or does this guy look like he'd be the stone-cold shit alongside Cabal Therapy and a couple additional sac outlets? (Works with Gatekeeper...)

Abyssal Persecutor :2::b::b:

Creature - Demon
Flying, trample
You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.
6/6
(http://mtgsalvation.com/worldwake-spoiler.html)

Me likey...

[necrowil]

I've tested near every build of suicide black, and I do believe the hatred builds to be worse. They're damn fun to play, because Hatred is an exciting card. But they're worse, even against control and combo builds.

Testing is fine, but its different when you commit to a deck and win tournaments with it. I test on MWS and magic-league.com all the time. I say this because I would have no idea how to play or build or what should be included in a control deck or pure combo deck or how to play it, while it is a fairly simple mechanic to execute, designing a deck is something that comes from playing it for hours to top 8s and finals. Knowing the deck and how to play and what to avoid is essential usually to winning.


And while forums are generally meant to discuss improvements to a deck, technically the Established Deck forum is for discussing an "established" deck list. The Hatred build varies considerably from a standard list, but I also have no cause to complain about discussion of this list because the vast majority of the Suicide Black thread already contradicts this principle. It's become the forum just to discuss any general mono-black aggro list, not a single established list. I'm certain I've posted lists that vary so much from the norm that posting them should rightfully go in the New and Development forum.

If you look at deckcheck.net there is a wide variety in Suicide decklists which make Top 8. Suicide has varied over the years and there have always been one goal. Beating the opponent down as quickly as possible usually uses disruptive elements. I would say Hatred falls within that goal. If there is an “established” or “standard” list for suicide black, I have not seen it. If there was one, I would still say its open to change.


Back to Hatred...

The problems with Hatred are:

1) You need to have a higher life total than your opponent to use it effectively. Which constrains the deck to an aggressive, low cc creature base for a superior early board position - these creatures are largely considered sub-optimal.

So don’t play with suboptimal creatures. Hatred is not the only way to win in this deck. Many decks still die to ritual negator and disruption. Building a deck that only has hatred as a win condition is just bad deck design. Where possible you should include multiple ways to win in a good deck.


2) The 5cc cost of Hatred forces the deck to run additional mana-acceleration, which isn't used for anything else, further constraining the deck design with cards that are exceptionally conditional.

No one is twisting your arm and saying you must play City of Traitors, Crystal Vein, Lake of the Dead or Culling the Weak. In fact, the two decks with Hatred on deckcheck.net ran none of those. Hatred does not constrain deck design. Whether you play 1 hatred or 4 with 3 tutors, you still don’t have to play those cards.


3) There is no guarantee that once you've paid the cost of Hatred, you'll see the effect. Which means Hatred decks are forced to run discard elements with the intended purpose of ensuring that Hatred goes off without hitch.

Also, the decks that ran hatred did not run Unmask, just Duress and Hymn. I don’t think either design relies on hatred going off. Seeing your opponent’s hand is nice, but not essential in this deck. If they counter it, you should be able to win another way. Hymn on the other hand is card advantage.


The effect of Hatred is awesome, but too conditional, very risky, and it forces bad deck design by opting for creatures, mana-acceleration, and discard effects that are generally considered sub-optimal for supporting a single card that we don't have a good search mechanism to ensure that it's available when needed.

Furthermore I disagree with the direction the Hatred lists that have been posted are progressing. Old Hatred decks used to run both Duress and Unmask to protect the combo. And back then it had a decent game against control and combo decks largely in part because of this. The latest lists posted have only 4x Duress, which will be rarely enough to disrupt modern combo decks, which are not only faster than combo of old, but also better protected (via orim's chant, force of will, etc.)

Modern builds of Suicide black which run 8-12 discard effects are, without doubt, far better suited against combo decks. I'd speculate the same holds true for the control matches. In addition Hatred decks were always weakest against aggro decks. In this modern meta, where Zoo and the like are rampant, Hatred builds can't expect to muster early control of the board.

I've been hoping that Lifelink, which bypasses the issue of having the life advantage, would help improve the aggro match up. But from what I've tested, even if I include Child of Night and Vampire Nighthawk, you still have to actually damage your opponent instead of watching your critters burned to a crisp or blocked. No success.

I don't see a positive difference any any match-up by adding Hatred and hurting other elements of deck design. At least, not at this point. I'm hoping some more bad-ass life link vamps come out in Worldwake. 'Cause Hatred is still a riot to play. I like risking it all. It just doesn't pay-off enough.

Very dismissive. I understand the card is not for you. Interesting idea about life gain, but I can’t recall a time when Hatred was ever concerned about it. Child of Night is obviously terrible and doesn’t belong in even vampire suicide black. Vampire Nighthawk is too slow so on to something else. So I only ask for possiblesolutions. Let’s find what works. Hatred is one card. When you know your opponent is about to go off and win next turn and you need to kill him, and you have the mana, you don’t really want to see any other card.

Here is one top 8 and one another trial tournament I did well in recently. So I would say that has to mean something. I’m under “greendragon”.
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=58541&view=decks
http://www.magic-league.com/tournament/info.php?id=58524&view=decks

Obviously, the mana acceleration and the suboptimal creatures have been cut in favor of ones that have obviously proven themselves in monoblack. Hatred is almost not needed at all in this deck. When you do have to cast it, well if they have not answered your specter or your negator, chances are they don’t have an answer to hatred. While you can’t stop combo control always (the belcher deck that I lost to went off on turn 1), I would say trying to plan and build vs a deck that can beat a deck that can go off turn 1 might be a frivolous pursuit.

So no mana acceleration ok, 12 disruptive elements you mentioned really 16 if you include wasteland, and obviously higher quality of creatures which like hypnotic specter. Most of the time I cast Hatred was on Hypnotic Specter. If the specter is hitting them, then guess what, they probably can’t stop hatred so I would say specter goes into any build of hatred in the current field. The main deck works really well and every time I have altered it, like add unmask or some other element, I have changed it back. I cut Sarcomancy, but I find it important to be able to play “creatures” with Skirge out and its drawback is nearly negligible with negator. I even tried one more swamp, but even that feels like too much mana. The main issue now is the sideboard which I keep going back and forth with. Now its:

Sideboard
4 extirpate
2 gatekeeper of malakir
2 withering wisps (for goblins, fish and countersliver)
2 sickening dreams (for goblins, fish and countersliver)
2 umezawa’s jitte
2 perish
1 spinning darkness

Wisps is just a very good way to control the board and to finish them off if necessary. Also you can wisps in response to them attempting to bolt kill your negator. It also is nice when they play Moat or something obnoxious like that. However, it may not be fast enough even at 3 mana. I may add more. Engineered Plague doesn’t do enough. Dreams is faster and effective but a lot of card disadvantage. I like it that it damages my opponent as well though. And I’d like to take Jitte out of this deck, but that can leave you in a bad position with no answer.

So even though I think the advice needed to be more solution oriented, it was very helpful as it got me reexamine the creature base and find the one I am happy with now and include hymn and actually start wining a few.

[necrowil]

*SPOILER*:

Is it just me, or does this guy look like he'd be the stone-cold shit alongside Cabal Therapy and a couple additional sac outlets? (Works with Gatekeeper...)

Abyssal Persecutor :2::b::b:

Creature - Demon
Flying, trample
You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.
6/6
(http://mtgsalvation.com/worldwake-spoiler.html)

Me likey...

The two most obvious ways this card can be utilized is

Phyrexian Tower

and

Fling

Fling is probably the best for a total beating.

[Savo]

Let's take this deck to the next level!

4x lurking evil
and
4x death's shadow, the new 13/13 from worldwake

[dal9ll]

Is Hatred-based Mono Black really better than straight-up Sui Black? Yeah, if Hatred goes unanswered you're going to take out a huge chunk of your opponent's life total (or all of it) but it seems like the whole plan rolls over to a well-placed counterspell. The concept just seems too gimmicky. I'd rather just stick with what Black does best - DISRUPTION:

Creatures (with enough disruption you really don't need that many creatures):
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 DARK CONFIDANT (how can you seriously not run this guy??)
4 Nantuko Shade

Spells:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach (unarguably one of the best black cards in Magic)
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands:
4 Wasteland (mono-black NEEDS this card, and with Sinkhole you've got answers to stuff like Factory, which can be tough for this deck sometimes)
1 Volrath's Stronghold (lets you get a lot more mileage out of your creatures)
1 Tomb of Urami (uncounterable 5/5 flyer at instant-speed)
1 Urborg (because why not?)
13 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Extirpate (utterly destroys decks like Solidaity, other combo)
3 Engineered Plague (invaluable against tribal decks and Empty the Warrens)
2 Pithing Needle (just a great utility card against tons of different decks)
2 Withered Wretch (some essential GY hate)
2 Duress (extra disruption against combo/control)
1 Dystopia (against Solitary Confinement, Aluren, etc.)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (if needed against Fish, Gobins, Zoo, etc.)


I know this sort of Mono-BBB deck is a lot different than Hatred-based Mono-BBB but IMO Phyrexian Negator should never be anything more than a sideboard card in either deck. Legacy is so aggro-heavy right now I have no idea why you'd ever want to run him against decks that run... well... creatures.

Also, how is Kaervek's Spite in any way better than Tomb of Urami? Urami serves the same purpose but is virtually uncounterable plus has evasion. With either card, you'd only play it when it would kill your opponent so why have to sac all your permanents and pay that much life when you don't need to? Just my thoughts anyway...

[necrowil]

Let's take this deck to the next level!

4x lurking evil
and
4x death's shadow, the new 13/13 from worldwake

infernal contract is also good for that also, plus you gain 4 cards

i don't know if that would really work out though.

that card seems like it would work in Pox. seems like its made for it actually.

[Jon Stewart]

Well, Kaervek's Spite can be used an additional sac outlet for Abysal Prosecutor alongside Cabal Therapy, Gatekeeper of Malakir/Diabolic Edict and if you splash red, Fling.

I wasn't a fan of Abyssal Prosecutor because it seemed too conditional for a Grinning Demon with evasion, but with this many sac outlets all of which are a great fit into the deck on their own, I'm coming around.

The question, which to opt for to supplement this... Tombstalker or Dark Confidant? I'm leaning towards Tombstalker.

[dal9ll]

I would only ever run Tombstalker over Dark Confidant for two reasons:

--If money is an issue. Dark Confidant IS an expensive card.

--If you have a high mana curve. I always run a SUPER low curve in my Mono-BBB deck (only CMC 0-2 maindeck) so I can warrant running Bob. But if youre running anything 4cc or more I wouldn't run him.

[damionblackgear]

A 4cc isn't so bad. It's not like there'll be 12 of them in the deck. If you are getting that much then it may be a better idea to not run Bob.

Also I would suggest Right of Consumption as an additional sac outlet since you can fling the critter and gain life. The sac is also part of the CC so if it was just to kill of the New Demon it's guaranteed. Also, Bone Splinter wouldn't be that bad either. I know you don't really want to kill the demon to take out another critter but sometimes you have to (remember you can aim the Splinter back at the demon).

[slylie]

infernal contract is also good for that also, plus you gain 4 cards

i don't know if that would really work out though.

that card seems like it would work in Pox. seems like its made for it actually.

This card will never be good. If you have 2 on the board, your opponent gets a 2 for 1 with swords.

Maybe play this in a deck with lich? they will be 13/13's. Throw in wall of blood for defence.

(joke)

[necrowil]

Dall9ll

Carnophage/Sarcomancy is definitely subpar and does not put enough pressure on your opponent. It can be blocked by basically everything including Mishra’s factory or they will just ignore it. I play Sarcomancy because it has synergy with Phyrexian Negator which you don’t like. I would play Vampire Lacerator as well if you like those 1 drop guys..

16 creatures is low imo also. There will be quite a few games when you don’t draw many or 1 zombie to face off vs his Tarmogoyf.

There was a long and lengthy discussion about how Dark Confidant does not put any pressure on your opponent which imo suicide needs to do. I would look at that before including them.

Edict is a dead card against Dream halls, Belcher, Solidarity, ANT, Burn and the list goes on. They are also bad against elves, goblins, fish and countersliver as you need to kill specific things on the board, not just anything.

There should not be a late game with this deck so Stronghold should not be an issue.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth helps your opponent kill you. In the last tournament I was stuck on Swamp and Wasteland as my mana with 2 Hymns to Tourach in my hand. My opponent played Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and I destroyed him easily. It was ridiculous and he conceded before the game was over. Don’t play cards that help your opponent kill you.

Kaervek’s Spite is bad now I think. Soul Spike is better and safer as a finisher and more useful if you need to kill something.

Say what you will about Negator. Most people’s answer is Swords which helps me gain 5 life and Shackles and I am usually able to keep my opponents land count fairly low. I think the key is just how to utilize the card. If you know how to play him and when to play him, he’s not a problem. Like if you’re opponent goes Wooded Foothills, Kird Ape I know I can’t play him until my opponent is out of cards and all my permanents are out. I’ve done this against Zoo and it can work. It can go against you to, but against any deck without heavy red then you are gold with him.

Also, is there a reason you don’t run Hypnotic Specter? To me he is the best black creature in the game. Definitely would run him over zombies of confidant. Specter really puts a lot of pressure on your opponent.

Just my two cents.

[Galroth]

Thought I'd support Necrowil's statements. Carnophage and Sarcomancy are simply outclassed by every other creature in the format that are played for the purpose of dealing damage. This issue is compounded when you run a small creature base (I know this is relative, but 16x creatures is minimal for suicide black).

If you're only running 16x creatures, every single one of them needs to be a finisher. If it's not a finisher, then it has to be so blatantly awesome that it's obvious why you're running it (this would be where confidant, specter, and gatekeeper of malakir fall - they're badass card advantage which will win you games).

If you're going to play a very aggressive suicide build with a small creature base, Dark Confidant doesn't belong. If you're going to try to control the board more, and have a larger creature base with less finishers, then consider including him. At 16x creatures, I'm assuming you're going for the more balls to the walls type deck where Confidant just doesn't fit.

Edict - Snuff Out is largely considered better. Smallpox and Innocent Blood are viable options if you're going to try running Abyssal Persecutor (with only 16x creatures, he's a great finisher). Smother is also considered to be a tad better than edict. Realistically, the best creature removal is Gatekeeper of Malakir. He's card advantage, and never a dead draw. After you're running 4x Gatekeeper, then choose from other options. There's really no reason to not run Gatekeeper first. I'm trying to come up with one... but I can't.

Tomb or Urami... yikes.

Kaervek's Spite is too risky. If you don't kill them right then, you've lost the game. After you've paid the cost of sacrificing everything, what happens when your opponent just Force of Will's you? It's a desperate move that doesn't warrant deck space. Like Necrowil said, Soul Spike deals 1 less damage without the massive risk. Both of these cards are pretty conditional though. I'd say run them Soul Spike as a 1x if we had a decent black tutor... we don't. Instead include cards that will help ensure you're never in a losing board position where you need a last ditch desperation move like Kaervek's Spite or Soul Spike.

Necrowil and I are still of opposing viewpoints about Hatred and it's usefulness, but we've debated that and I can support all of his other advice. It's solid. Post was dead on.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I've been trying to come up with the best deck-list to abuse Abyssal Persecutor, because I think that card is teh sexiness... So how does the following list look to y'all?

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Abyssal Persecutor

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Diabolic Edict

4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Tower
15 Snow-Covered Swamp

[necrowil]

i think fleshbag marauder is a bad card simply because it is a 3/1 for 3 and too conditional.

and of course edict as we just discussed above sucks against a lot of decks. i would cut the edicts and marauders for +4 sinkhole.

i'm not a fan of confidant as we talked about.

also, you look like your swamp count is low for running 4 shade. if you are running snow, you should check out withering wisps. it wins me a lot of games. its a little better then pestilence.

you may consider adding another tower as well.

10 discard is good number.

i may not play abyssal persecutor at all depending. i don't think my deck needs it.

[necrowil]

of course when cards like this are released shouldn't you reexamine everything.

honestly if i do decide to run this in my deck, it will make phyrexian negator that much better simply because abyssal persecutor is one more permanent to sacrifice to phyrexian negator. it seems to make sense.

[Darkenslight]

Direct from the FAQ:

Death's shadow gains power and toughness when at a negative life total..

[slylie]

Direct from the FAQ:

Death's shadow gains power and toughness when at a negative life total..

.. because sometimes 13/13 just doesn't cut the mustard.

[Uncoordinated]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I just have to say I'm kind of surprised at the suggestions of Hatred-esque decks of old Sui Black. As mentioned by Galroth earlier ( I believe it was you.. a couple pages back ), modern Sui Black isn't really so much Sui anymore. It's actually styled MBA ( monoblack aggro ) over at MTGSalvation as opposed to Sui Black. Not that MTGS is canon for the naming of decks, but I don't think even remotely competitive decklists run any first-turn critters anymore.

The premise of Sui Black is to disrupt, and then land threats. I don't see how a first-turn Carnophage/Sarcomancy/Dark Rit into some 2/2s is remotely scary anymore. With the ever-present Goyf, almost all our early 1 and 2 drop beaters are laughed at. Especially considering the discard suite that should be integral to any monoblack deck, we should be playing more and more disruption, and less threats.

I would say the best play against any deck, on a decently plausible draw ( nothing ridiculous like 2 - 3 Dark Rits in hand + Land + threats ) is T1 Swamp Dark Rit -> Thoughtseize -> Hymn. Sui Black seeks to neuter any early plays before they materialize. That's why the combo and control MUs are pretty alright for us during all games. I would argue that every one-drop black critter, with the possible except of the newest Death's Shadow, is overshadowed by disruptive cards like Thoughtseize, Duress, and Therapy.

Here's my decklist:

Land
11 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
3 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Negator

Non-creature
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother
2 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
5 Diabolic Edict + Snuff Out combination
3 Extirpate + Cabal Therapy combination


The maindeck choices:
- Confidant + Stalker: the deck is styled Sui Black for a reason. Best beater in black combined with CA on a stick.
- SDT: in here for an early play off Ritual if necessary; ensures card quality, not dying to Tombstalker off Confidant trigger.
- 3/3 split Negator/Nighthawk: not running Hippie at this time. See below. I also don't shy away from Negator because he is the strongest P/T 3 drop in our collection. Nighthawk is there because he trades with Goyf, eats Bolts for me, and swings for four points of life in the air. Not a bad topdeck like Hippie.
- Lack of Hypnotic Specter: you'll notice I don't play Hippie. I feel six targeted discard, plus more in the board is enough to hold off combo and control in the early game. T1 Ritual into Hippie is classic, but Hippie becomes rather obsolete when topdeck'd.
- 3 Wastelands: There's a lot of mono-decks in my meta, and I hate not having double black sometimes. A personal choice.
- Random Jitte? Wtf?: Yeah, I felt like removing a Smother for a Jitte. It's utilitarian removal, and something opponents often board in hate for. I don't really need it, because 4 mana is pretty steep, and my guys own stuff up on their own anyway.

The sideboard choices:
- 4 Plagues: I run into lots of Merfolk Fish and Goblins.
- 3 Dystopia: Stronger hate than Perish vs. my field, because I run into Landstill/Control decks with UWx, Enchantress, and Thresh. You basically own the shit out of Thresh with Dystopia, because they always slow-roll/knock you down by increments. Hits PWs, trouble enchantments, etc.
- 5 spot removal: Currently in flux with the 3 mainboarded. Basically some combination of Smother/Edict/Snuff Out. General strategy is Snuff Out vs. tempo-oriented, Edict vs. shrouded/prot guys, and Smother vs. Goyf.
- 3 discard for B: I really like Extirpate vs. Combo and Loam control decks ( the rare lists I see don't wishboard because it's too slow for the format ). Unfortunately, I don't see much here. Therapy is a solid card with 6 targeted discard already, but I never want to have more than 2 maindeck'd for fear of drawing multiples/without creatures/without Thoughtseize/Duress. My list runs a lot fewer critters than decks of old, but Confidant is still a prime target for it. I usually board in 2 - 3 vs. Control and the like, because I run 3 Smothers which are pretty useless vs. something like Landstill, and I've never seen a Dreadstill list played here.
- No Dredge hate? Wtfz?: yeah.. Ravenous Trap and Relic 2/2 split used to be in here, along with 4 Leylines replacing the Extirpates/a Plague or two. Dredge is gone because it's so hated, so I changed my board. :D


To restate what I think the aim of Sui Black should be:
Disrupt, disrupt some more, then land a MUST-ANSWER threat. Every creature in my deck NEEDS to be answered, or else they will win me the game. I don't need a gimmicky tutor/-10 life for Hatred, which is pretty high out of the curve anyway. Older Sui Black decks could afford to spend a couple turns dropping weenie 2/2s onto the field because older Legacy was slower. It's outdated. Most everything in those decks either swing for 2 with evasion ( Dauthi Slayer-esque evasion ) every turn, while a 4/5 Goyf bears down on them and walls off the rest of the little Sarco/Carno guys, or they don't have enough effect to warrant even spot removal from control decks. I prefer guys that actually do something by themselves.

My $10.00. /end.

[slylie]

Long time reader, first time poster.

I just have to say I'm kind of surprised at the suggestions of Hatred-esque decks of old Sui Black. As mentioned by Galroth earlier ( I believe it was you.. a couple pages back ), modern Sui Black isn't really so much Sui anymore. It's actually styled MBA ( monoblack aggro ) over at MTGSalvation as opposed to Sui Black. Not that MTGS is canon for the naming of decks, but I don't think even remotely competitive decklists run any first-turn critters anymore.

The premise of Sui Black is to disrupt, and then land threats. I don't see how a first-turn Carnophage/Sarcomancy/Dark Rit into some 2/2s is remotely scary anymore. With the ever-present Goyf, almost all our early 1 and 2 drop beaters are laughed at. Especially considering the discard suite that should be integral to any monoblack deck, we should be playing more and more disruption, and less threats.

I would say the best play against any deck, on a decently plausible draw ( nothing ridiculous like 2 - 3 Dark Rits in hand + Land + threats ) is T1 Swamp Dark Rit -> Thoughtseize -> Hymn. Sui Black seeks to neuter any early plays before they materialize. That's why the combo and control MUs are pretty alright for us during all games. I would argue that every one-drop black critter, with the possible except of the newest Death's Shadow, is overshadowed by disruptive cards like Thoughtseize, Duress, and Therapy.

Here's my decklist:

Land
11 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tomb of Urami
3 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Negator

Non-creature
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother
2 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
5 Diabolic Edict + Snuff Out combination
3 Extirpate + Cabal Therapy combination


The maindeck choices:
- Confidant + Stalker: the deck is styled Sui Black for a reason. Best beater in black combined with CA on a stick.
- SDT: in here for an early play off Ritual if necessary; ensures card quality, not dying to Tombstalker off Confidant trigger.
- 3/3 split Negator/Nighthawk: not running Hippie at this time. See below. I also don't shy away from Negator because he is the strongest P/T 3 drop in our collection. Nighthawk is there because he trades with Goyf, eats Bolts for me, and swings for four points of life in the air. Not a bad topdeck like Hippie.
- Lack of Hypnotic Specter: you'll notice I don't play Hippie. I feel six targeted discard, plus more in the board is enough to hold off combo and control in the early game. T1 Ritual into Hippie is classic, but Hippie becomes rather obsolete when topdeck'd.
- 3 Wastelands: There's a lot of mono-decks in my meta, and I hate not having double black sometimes. A personal choice.
- Random Jitte? Wtf?: Yeah, I felt like removing a Smother for a Jitte. It's utilitarian removal, and something opponents often board in hate for. I don't really need it, because 4 mana is pretty steep, and my guys own stuff up on their own anyway.

The sideboard choices:
- 4 Plagues: I run into lots of Merfolk Fish and Goblins.
- 3 Dystopia: Stronger hate than Perish vs. my field, because I run into Landstill/Control decks with UWx, Enchantress, and Thresh. You basically own the shit out of Thresh with Dystopia, because they always slow-roll/knock you down by increments. Hits PWs, trouble enchantments, etc.
- 5 spot removal: Currently in flux with the 3 mainboarded. Basically some combination of Smother/Edict/Snuff Out. General strategy is Snuff Out vs. tempo-oriented, Edict vs. shrouded/prot guys, and Smother vs. Goyf.
- 3 discard for B: I really like Extirpate vs. Combo and Loam control decks ( the rare lists I see don't wishboard because it's too slow for the format ). Unfortunately, I don't see much here. Therapy is a solid card with 6 targeted discard already, but I never want to have more than 2 maindeck'd for fear of drawing multiples/without creatures/without Thoughtseize/Duress. My list runs a lot fewer critters than decks of old, but Confidant is still a prime target for it. I usually board in 2 - 3 vs. Control and the like, because I run 3 Smothers which are pretty useless vs. something like Landstill, and I've never seen a Dreadstill list played here.
- No Dredge hate? Wtfz?: yeah.. Ravenous Trap and Relic 2/2 split used to be in here, along with 4 Leylines replacing the Extirpates/a Plague or two. Dredge is gone because it's so hated, so I changed my board. :D


To restate what I think the aim of Sui Black should be:
Disrupt, disrupt some more, then land a MUST-ANSWER threat. Every creature in my deck NEEDS to be answered, or else they will win me the game. I don't need a gimmicky tutor/-10 life for Hatred, which is pretty high out of the curve anyway. Older Sui Black decks could afford to spend a couple turns dropping weenie 2/2s onto the field because older Legacy was slower. It's outdated. Most everything in those decks either swing for 2 with evasion ( Dauthi Slayer-esque evasion ) every turn, while a 4/5 Goyf bears down on them and walls off the rest of the little Sarco/Carno guys, or they don't have enough effect to warrant even spot removal from control decks. I prefer guys that actually do something by themselves.

My $10.00. /end.

4 Shades and 3 Confidants? Shade is a nice creature but you often don't want to be spending your mana pumping him, and having 2 out is even worse. Maybe reverse it to 4 confidants and 3 shades.?

3 Negator maindeck is too much for me. I guess it depends on your meta but vs goblins he sucks (Gempalm = sac your board) vs canadian thresh he sucks (lightning bolt) vs zoo he sucks, burn, obviously.. vs anything with creatures he sucks as him being blocked or blocking a creature usually turns out bad on your side. I admit he is awesome. I love me some Negator, but I keep him in the SB and only bring him in vs decks that you need to win quick and only run non-burn removal.

Sensei's top - I just don't see this card getting a spot in an aggro deck. Its card selection, not advantage. I understand the 'combo' with dark confidant but really I see it as a wasted spot where another creature, 2 more jittes or something could be.

As for no hippie, In a build with negator I guess you can spare him. Personally I run nixathid.. (sp) so keeping your opponents hand low of cards is a priority. Also Nixathid is great vs fast aggro decks as they empty their hand quickly then you throw down this 7/7 wall for them to try and get around. Against decks like zoo I often win stalling the ground with nix then flying over with hippy.

[Uncoordinated]

4 Shades and 3 Confidants? Shade is a nice creature but you often don't want to be spending your mana pumping him, and having 2 out is even worse. Maybe reverse it to 4 confidants and 3 shades.?

3 Negator maindeck is too much for me. I guess it depends on your meta but vs goblins he sucks (Gempalm = sac your board) vs canadian thresh he sucks (lightning bolt) vs zoo he sucks, burn, obviously.. vs anything with creatures he sucks as him being blocked or blocking a creature usually turns out bad on your side. I admit he is awesome. I love me some Negator, but I keep him in the SB and only bring him in vs decks that you need to win quick and only run non-burn removal.

Sensei's top - I just don't see this card getting a spot in an aggro deck. Its card selection, not advantage. I understand the 'combo' with dark confidant but really I see it as a wasted spot where another creature, 2 more jittes or something could be.

As for no hippie, In a build with negator I guess you can spare him. Personally I run nixathid.. (sp) so keeping your opponents hand low of cards is a priority. Also Nixathid is great vs fast aggro decks as they empty their hand quickly then you throw down this 7/7 wall for them to try and get around. Against decks like zoo I often win stalling the ground with nix then flying over with hippy.

Shade is unconditionally ( without additional spells, permanents, etc. ) the best black two-drop in the entire game. He topdecks well, holds Jitte well, eats removal well, and is your mana sink mid-to-late game when you have spent the first two or three turns disrupting the fuck out of your opponent. Most likely, you will have around 3 lands out when you first play him. The worst position to have him in is when you are on the play with T1 Dark Ritual, and you don't have your combo of Thoughtseize/Duress + 2 CMC disruption, AND you don't have Confidant. The chances of that occurring are very rare.


I admit that Negator has often been a dead card for me. Against a lot of MUs ( the ones you mentioned ) , he is reaaaaally bad. However, why would you ever drop Negator in a Mu against such a deck? I stated my reasons above for maindecking him. I could switch him out for typical Hippie/Nyx/Gouger mix anyday, but the fact remains that he is game-winning when you are against control/combo. Why not run Hippie then, you might ask? Because he is a horrible topdeck, and if he doesn't come down within the first three turns, chances are they'll have emptied their hand/ Brainstorm'd their important shit to the top of their deck. Negator disrupts in a different way by providing a four-turn clock, and also trading with most creatures in the current meta for the cost of some lands. Decks like Canadian Thresh need the Bolt or Fire/Ice, and I still drop Negator mid-game against them because he is beastly, and sacrificing 2 or 3 out of 4 lands is no problem for me if he sticks.


As for Top. That is a personal choice, and in addition to providing a Sarcomancy-esque effect for my Negator, Sui Black is always going to have a bad MU against mono-red decks like Burn, Goblins, etc. Top provides unparalleled card parity, and has synergy with Confidant, fetchlands ( which I run a variable number of in my build ) and Negator. I actually run it as a two-of for the very reason you mentioned. However, mid- to late-game, when you have the most reason to fear topdecking it, it isn't that bad. It wins topdeck wars for you when it comes down early and you've spent your hand ripping apart the opponent's hand. That is very important to me, as I am often found topdecking after turn 3 or 4.






Now for my contribution to the thread: Bojuka Bog? Tempo loss for hate against Dredge/Goyf? Thoughts? I have been happy running it as a one-of in my test list. Dredge is one of the decks I never see in my meta because everyone is packing Relics/Crypts like no tomorrow, but it's something to test from WWK.

I've also seen a Sui Black version in development that abuses Death's Shadow. It involves the super tech Plunge into Darkness, from 5D, and Cruel Bargain/Infernal Contract for massive CA/tutor. I could see it being a very viable anti-control/combo deck, but unfortunately the fact that Death's Shadow requires you to lose at least 1/4 of your life to be effective is kinda iffy. However, low-CMC bombs with noticeable drawbacks has never stopped me. See above argument for Negator.

I think a build revolving around Death's Shadow is much more viable than one just running Persecutor because of the mana cost and the fact that synergy works better than random bombs. Obviously you can Gatekeeper/Therapy/Edict your own dude, but in most cases it's inefficient, and Persecutor eats StP just like every other creature in our deck. Building a deck that revolves around sacrificing your own dude ( not even all your guys, just the one specifically ) doesn't seem as appealing to me as one that already does what Sui Black does ( see Thoughtseize, fetchland for Stalker fodder, Snuff Out, Dystopia ), AND THEN ADDS A 1 CMC BOMB that synergises with it. T1 Swamp, Dark Rit, Plunge into Darkness for 13 life, Death's Shadow, anyone?

[Mesercus]

death's shadow is very bad imho , require to lose at least half life to be used and it's a x/x without evasion or shroud.
Plung into darkness has a better sinergy with bitterblossom for a deck with a different game plan
Negator is madness nowdays (maybe in sb for the control/combo matches)
Fast and disruptive aggro black deck could be good but splashed is better (green tarmo, red burn spells and magus)
To stay monoblack you need a reason , a particular strategy different from suicide.

[necrowil]

i will never understand why people don't run hypnotic specter. targeted discard is fine and all, but hippy is a must counter for control. it is card advantage even if you play it 3rd turn usually. in my deck, i just kill them if they cannot answer the hippy and cast hatred. this happens once every 5 or 6 games.

1st turn specter is still a problem for many decks in the format. no one can allow it to stay on the board. after duress, hymn, sinkhole, your opponent can still recover. dropping a specter just ensures their doom. has nothing to do with targeted discard.

hippy also makes it easier for me to play my phyrexian negators main deck. after duress, hymn, sinkhole, shade, hippy usually, they will have nothing to deal with a negator even if they have creatures on the board they should be few and you can just roll over them.

it has to be one of the best if not the best creatures black has imho.

[dal9ll]

I think the fact that Hippie's discard is random is also a big factor. Hymn and Hippie's random discard can works wonders early game towards mana denial, especially when running Wasteland and Sinkhole too. Just think about how a turn one Ritual to Hymn or Hippie, followed by a turn 2 Sinkhole or Wasteland puts the pressure on an opponent's mana resources. Most of the time if your opening hand is a two-land hand and you dont draw a land for few turns, its not too difficult to recover. But with very early game random discard you could lose those ever-so-precious lands real early on.

I'm coming around to the idea the lil' beatz like Carnophage and Sarcomancy are becoming outdated in this deck. I've decided to replace them with Nighthawk and Tombstalker. Here's the list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Snuff Out

4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg
14 Swamp

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progetitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Dystopia
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm not exactly sure whether or not running 8 three-drops, a four-drop, and two eight-drops will screw me when I flip them with Bob or not. I do know though that 2/2 one-drops just don't get the job done when it comes to beatz. 5/5's, flying deathtouch lifelinkers, and random discard with evasion are just teh bestz. I've been really happy with my removal package though: 4 Edict, 1 Snuff Out. Edict seems to handle any creatures that don't get discarded and Snuff Out needs no explanation as to why its awesome. I'm inclined to run more Snuffs but I'm just concerned that too many of them will act against me with Bob in play. I lose 4 life when I flip it then 4 again to play it? Ouch. Anyway it seems like many here are over using Bob but I'm not (at least yet). I've had him save me too many games to consider dropping him just yet. Opinions?

thanks for reading.

[Arsenal]

For me, Gatekeeper of Malakir has replaced Diabolic Edict. The times I get screwed by not having an EOT Edict is mitigated by the fact that I get a threat out on the table that can (a.) go the distance, (b.) chump-block/kill opposing creatures, and (c.) can be recurred by Volrath's Stronghold (if you play it, which you do).

EDIT: Also, I'd probably run some fetches; food for earlier 'Stalkers and when you don't need them, you can still get B mana (via Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth... which I'd probably up to 2-3 if you're running Stronghold, Wasteland, and fetches).

[necrowil]

I think the fact that Hippie's discard is random is also a big factor. Hymn and Hippie's random discard can works wonders early game towards mana denial, especially when running Wasteland and Sinkhole too. Just think about how a turn one Ritual to Hymn or Hippie, followed by a turn 2 Sinkhole or Wasteland puts the pressure on an opponent's mana resources. Most of the time if your opening hand is a two-land hand and you dont draw a land for few turns, its not too difficult to recover. But with very early game random discard you could lose those ever-so-precious lands real early on.

I'm coming around to the idea the lil' beatz like Carnophage and Sarcomancy are becoming outdated in this deck. I've decided to replace them with Nighthawk and Tombstalker. Here's the list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Tombstalker

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Snuff Out

4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg
14 Swamp

SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progetitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Dystopia
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm not exactly sure whether or not running 8 three-drops, a four-drop, and two eight-drops will screw me when I flip them with Bob or not. I do know though that 2/2 one-drops just don't get the job done when it comes to beatz. 5/5's, flying deathtouch lifelinkers, and random discard with evasion are just teh bestz. I've been really happy with my removal package though: 4 Edict, 1 Snuff Out. Edict seems to handle any creatures that don't get discarded and Snuff Out needs no explanation as to why its awesome. I'm inclined to run more Snuffs but I'm just concerned that too many of them will act against me with Bob in play. I lose 4 life when I flip it then 4 again to play it? Ouch. Anyway it seems like many here are over using Bob but I'm not (at least yet). I've had him save me too many games to consider dropping him just yet. Opinions?

thanks for reading.

lose edict man. if you want that effect gatekeeper of malakir is the way to go. you take something of theirs and play a threat they have to deal with. that is way better then edict.

your issue with the number of 3 drops is valid. i personally am not a fan of vampire nighthawk NOR tombstalker. if i had to choose though between the two i would run nighthawk definitely over tombstalker. i would also run gatekeeper over nighthawk. there is a lot of graveyard hate so he is a potential liability. i think 2 tombstalker is enough. after all, how many do you need to win and if you draw one after you just played one your graveyard is gone so you can't play it anyway. it becomes a dead card.

if you are going to play a 3 drop, it better do something which helps you win. specter does, gatekeeper does, nighthawk does not in my opinion. its not a threat at all really. if you need removal beyond gatekeeper i would go with something like vendetta, doomblade or something that targets which is cheap. i personally don't think you need it seeing as you have thoughtseize, sinkhole, hymn, gatekeeper, so how many threats could they possibly get out with all of that?

my creature base is much different then yours:

4 sarcomancy
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

it's much more aggressive and keeps them on a short clock. i found when i started gatekeeper, i would often hold back and wait for my opponent to play a creature which i did not like. i like skirge because it blocks and kills nimble mongoose at 3/3 and as it turns out it blocks and kills vampire nighthawk. the only reason i play sarcomancy of synergy with skirge and negator. if skirge is out i can play them and negator makes the negative effects of it negligible. i may experiment again with gatekeeper main, but it doesn't seem to work in this deck. bring the 3cc count creatures to 12. that's too many. i'm not recommending this for your deck, just saying you really need a reason for the creatures that you play. choose onces that aggravate your opponent.

[Arsenal]

Nighthawk makes the Zoo matchup, something you should be seeing a fair amount of, winnable pre-board. Nighthawk also laughs at opposing creatures (Goyf wall). Negator, although AWSOME versus control and combo, does not have a real home in the current meta; even without Negator, we have a solid matchup versus control and combo (provided we keep them off AdN).

[dal9ll]

Nighthawk really just seems like he belongs in this deck. Deathtouch is what makes him. No matter what they've got down on their side of the board, it will die if Nighthawk blocks it, plus you'll gain 2 life. Saying that he dies to X or Y is irrelevant because if I have Nighthawk down and they have something scarier, say Goyf, they're not going to attack unless they've got another one in hand. Plus like Hippie, he's a creature that absolutely must be dealt with immediately or they'll become a huge headache as the game goes on. I figure the more creatures like that you run, the better. He can also survive a tussle with any 2/x creature. The life-gain he gives you can help greatly when the "Sui" part of this deck rears its head.

I've always been of the opinion that this deck should always be running the most efficient creatures black has to offer and Nighthawk has got to be in the top 3, at least, along with Hippie and Bob.

Regarding Gatekeeper, I will test it out but I have my doubts about it being better than Edict. My qualms with Gatekeeper are the following: First, triple-black mana cost. I run 4 Wasteland and 1 Stronghold so triple-black can be a bitch. Also like Necrowil said, he's sort of wasted (or at least not at his full potential) when you have to wait for them to play a creature. Lastly, (and I'll stress this) - SORCERY SPEED. Instant-speed is just too handy. One thing Gatekeeper has going for it though is that he's more useful than Edict against a creature-less deck.

As for the suggestion to run fetchlands to feed Tombstalker, I'll test that out as well. We'll see if its worth the life-loss for merely two of the Demons. 'Stalker only needs to get Delved for like 4 or so to be worth it. I'm thinking around 4-7 fetches would be sufficient.

PS: Yes, I'm of the opinion that Death's Shadow is a junk rare. Better to just run Nyxathid if you ask me. If you can't drop it on the first turn, what's the point?

[Arsenal]

If you run fetches, Wasteland, and Stronghold, I'd up your Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth count to 3; triple black shouldn't be too much of an issue.

I look at Gatekeeper overtaking Edict is almost what Sower has done to every other "control magic" spell; a body attached to some rediculous trigger is just too good to pass up.

[necrowil]

If you run fetches, Wasteland, and Stronghold, I'd up your Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth count to 3; triple black shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth helps your opponent kill you. In the last tournament I was stuck on Swamp and Wasteland as my mana with 2 Hymns to Tourach in my hand. My opponent played Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and I destroyed him easily. It was ridiculous and he conceded before the game was over. Don’t play cards that help your opponent kill you.

[necrowil]

currently i'm testing this at the moment taking into the suggestions you guys have made, but it definitely plays like a truck, my last creature build played more like a trans am in terms of pressure.

sideboard
4 phyrexian negator
4 extirpate
3 perish
2 umezawa's jitte
2 withering wisps

main
17 snow-covered swamp
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 hatred
4 nantuko shade
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 hypnotic specter
4 vampire nighthawk
4 skittering skirge

if i draw malikir early or before i find BBB i just play him as a two drop. its ok i guess, but it takes me longer to kill them.

[Gibbie_X]

With the Gatekeeper knocking off the Pridemage, or even the Noble Hierarch, would a little targeted removal be good. I originally thought Bone Shredder, but Shriekmaw seems better. And what about Fleshbag Marauder?

[Arsenal]

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth helps your opponent kill you. In the last tournament I was stuck on Swamp and Wasteland as my mana with 2 Hymns to Tourach in my hand. My opponent played Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and I destroyed him easily. It was ridiculous and he conceded before the game was over. Don’t play cards that help your opponent kill you.

Yay hypotheticals. I can give you a bunch of scenarios where playing Card X will win/lose you the game too. But the bottom line is this; Wasteland + fetchlands + Volrath's Stronghold warrants Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Personally, I run 14 Swamp + 8 fetchlands for my manabase, but for those running other non-basics, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth should be considered.

EDIT: The likelihood of running into another mono-black deck during a tourney is slim, and even if you do, the chances of the opponent not having access to BB by turn 2-3 is retardedly low.

[man_bites_dog]

Hey, first post after lurking for years.

I wanted an opinion on a new card from Worldwake that I think would fit SuiBlack well:

B | Death's Shadow | Creature - Avatar| 13/13| : Death’s Shadow gets -X/-X, where X is your life total.

Combine this with Infernal Contract and / or Cruel Bargain and we could potentionally get a really good threat onto the table very quickly. Swords to Plowshares? Go ahead. You're just going to refuel me to play another Infernal Contract for more C/A. Could also use creatures like Lurking Evil.

Comments?

Cheers

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think the real question is why no one is considering Abyssal Persecutor (:2::b::b:, 6/6 flying, trample. you can't win the game and yr opponent can't lose).

With Gatekeeper already in the deck, it seems to me that we could just work Cabal Therapy into the discard suite and already have just about enough ways to sacrifice it. 6/6 flying trample for four mana is a ridiculous beatstick, and he plays much better alongside Dark Confidant than Tombstalker does. And people still bring up Tombstalker in lists on this thread.

I mean, seriously: Am I the only person that sees that this card has some freakin' potential?

[necrowil]

i probably won't use it simply because the deck i run simply because you can't ritual him out. if i'm playing something that costs above 3 mana i want it to change the game dramatically or be able to be played for "free" with an alternate casting cost

sideboard
4 phyrexian negator
4 extirpate
3 perish
2 umezawa's jitte
2 withering wisps

main
9 snow-covered swamp
2 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 hatred
4 nantuko shade
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 hypnotic specter
4 vampire nighthawk
4 skittering skirge

i add that it slows the deck down even more, and i think its slow already AND i gotta add therapy and probably more things to get rid of it. its the same reason i don't run grinning demon really and that has less of a drawback with no evasion. i could be wrong, but i really don't know what i would cut to include him.

in addiition, the legacy format is very, very fast with cards like entomb now legal and dream halls decks. question becomes, how does abyssal persecutor help you beat the field? sure it's impressive but is it necessary? it's questionable to me.

[Batman of Zur-En-Arrh]

Kay, I have 2 black decks that somewhat falls under this category. One is for SRS BZNZ and the other is just my old deck from 9 years ago that I revived and modified last week.

Suicide Black #1: Emo Suicide (it cuts itself D: )

Creatures:
4x Dark Confidant
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Nyxathid

Spells:
4x Duress
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smother
4x Dark Ritual

Artifacts:
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Lotus Petal

Lands:

3x Wasteland
15x Swamp

Sideboard:
3x Engineered Plague
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Bojuka Bog
2x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle

People always tell me to get rid of the petals, but it made far too many explosive first turns for me to get rid of, maybe just -1.

I'm thinking of using Tombstalker as my bomb instead of Nyxathid, will I have to get fetches(3-4) just to feed it? (then the deck would really be cutting itself :3 )

Suggestions and opinions are very welcome.

Suicide Black #2: Shadows

Creatures:
4x Nether Traitor
4x Dauthi Slayer
4x Dauthi Horror
4x Dauthi Mercenary
2x Dauthi Marauder

Spells:
3x Unholy Strentgh
3x Edge of the Divinity
3x Bad Moon
3x Sign in Blood
3x Unearth
2x Soul Spike
4x Snuff Out
4x Dark Ritual

Artifacts:
1x Lotus Peta (I only have 1 set lol)
16x swamp

No sideboard, this is just a fun legacy deck.

Much more aggressive than the first deck, I basically revived this one so I can lend it to my friends that are new to MTG.

Not willing to cut any of the creatures, except maybe Dauthi Marauder(lol sentimental value).

Mostly low cmc spells with some cards that lets me cheat the mana cost. But yes, 16 swamps is also pushing it; but I don't know what to cut for more swamps.

Again, suggestions are very welcome.

[Doctor, Doctor]

Hey guys, long time lurker who just got back into magic recently. Suicide Black was my passion back in the day, and, after reading the many pages of this thread, I have a couple of small observations, and then a slightly unorthodox decklist.

1) Has anyone noticed how good the synergy between Hatred and Vampire Nighthawk is?

2) A lot of the deck lists I see look like stripped down eva green. We can't beat eva green at their game as far as I can see, so wouldn't it be counter-productive to emulate their successful lists, sans green cards?

Now, I'm not claiming to be a pro player or anything, but I think it'd be wise to experiment drastically a little. I've been tinkering with an interesting, but admittedly pretty janky build that revolves around Nighthawk's synergy with Hatred, Nightmare lash, and Confidant. Yeah, nightmare lash. It's a kind of new take on the old suicide black theme that seems to have been forgotten lately. Anyways, here's a rough draft.

18 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Nightmare Lash
3 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
2 Hatred
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole



Now, an explanation on why I use nightmare lash over "superior" equipment like jitte is that I see jitte as too slow for the intents and purposes of a black deck that wants to knock it's opponent off tempo and then win quickly with a few efficient creatures covered by disruption. For the same cost of equipping a jitte(disregarding the life), Nightmare Lash gives an instant +4/+4 for an offense boost, along with the option to move it again to turn a weak blocker(like bob #2 or gatekeeper) into a pretty threatening wall. With a confidant+lash in play, all your crappy land topdecks turn into a quicker clock for your opponent to deal with, especially when they're recovering from some of your disruption. The synergy with Nighthawk is obvious. Jitte can obviously pull similar tricks, but not as focused on just delivering bigger beats. We already have good removal, and Lash gives much more consistant pump and life gain(through nighthawk).

So basically, I'd love to get some feedback, as this is just a very rough draft and has a lot of molding to go through, but I would ultimately love to play suiblack as my main deck in tournaments. I hope I explained myself, as english is not my primary language :X

[necrowil]

my take on jitte is this. yeah, its too slow. but i don't like equipment in the deck period as its all too slow. would much rather play something else. why do i play it? coz other folks do mostly and at times it can be useful, but mostly coz others play it and i need an answer to it.

i like your deck except the lashes, gatekeeper and i don't bother with snuff main due to confidant.

i think you want to play wastelands. there are a lot of problematic lands that this deck must deal with.

i play this now

sideboard
4 snuff out
4 extirpate
3 perish
2 withering wisps
2 umezawa's jitte

main
9 snow-covered swamp
2 bloodstained mire
2 verdant catacombs
2 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 hatred
4 dark confidant
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 vampire nighthawk
4 skittering skirge

this deck plays quite well. i came to the conclusion that gatekeeper is bad card for the most part. primarily its a slow edict that yields you a bear. no legacy deck is threatened by a bear. shriekmaw may be better i think but its still slow

i play fetches to get closer to the cards i want. its usually never an issue.

since i and you play confidant, snuff plus hatred is going to cause you issues with confidant. i have 3 pricy cards and usually have no problem. you have 6.

i don't like confidant either but there were not really any other decent choices. also confidant allowed me to smooth out my mana when i draw only one swamp in my opening hand. before i would mulligan a one swamp hand as you really need 2 in your opening to cast hymn early and what not. maybe if it had a ritual i would keep it. confidant allows me to keep one land hands. i only play him last also after i have exhausted other beatdown cards.

nighthawk also allows you to cast hatred with potentially no life loss as you gain as much life or more 2 more actually then you lose.

also i usually side out confidant if i side in snuff for the most part. that's about it really.

oh and withering wisps is another win conditions if your opponent runs 1 butt guys.

Please start using the Shift key. Thank you. ~ Nihil Credo

[Galroth]

I disagree. Specter is, and will likely always be a strong card. Even if you could argue that Specter doesn't belong in an optimal build of Sui-black (of which there is absolutely no agreement on), it's next to impossible to argue that Specter isn't one of your top contenders for flexible creature slots that are dependent on your meta.

Specter is a must answer off a first turn Ritual. Whether or not a deck can counter-act that doesn't prevent it from being a relevant threat. Most good decks are able to, be it Force, Swords, or a Bolt. Otherwise they wouldn't be good decks. Conversely, any smart Sui player usually wait 'til second turn after their first turn Thoughtsieze or Duress clears an opponents answer. Must answer threats are always a viable option that should at least be considered when constructing a deck.

Of the decks you listed, Specter is good against both Merfolk and Bant Aggro. Neither of which have a fast clock, because they're aggro-control decks, not aggro decks. Of the remaining decks in the DTB forum, Specter is also good against Counter-Top, Aggro-Loam, and ANT. Even the decks where you could consider it bad, it can be a game winning card in the right situation. If Goblins lacks removal and keeps a semi-slow hand, Hypnotic Specter can easily break them. I think I've made my point and I'll stray from any more anecdotal examples.

It's hard to take you seriously when your posts hurt my eyes so much - little content, poor rationalization, horrid grammar, overabundance of LOL, and the random deck lists with no explanation of your choices or why I should pay attention to your post as anything more than spam.

[slylie]

my take on jitte is this. yeah, its too slow. but i don't like equipment in the deck period as its all too slow. would much rather play something else. why do i play it? coz other folks do mostly and at times it can be useful, but mostly coz others play it and i need an answer to it.

i like your deck except the lashes, gatekeeper and i don't bother with snuff main due to confidant.

i think you want to play wastelands. there are a lot of problematic lands that this deck must deal with.

i play this now

sideboard
4 snuff out
4 extirpate
3 perish
2 withering wisps
2 umezawa's jitte

main
9 snow-covered swamp
2 bloodstained mire
2 verdant catacombs
2 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 hatred
4 dark confidant
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 vampire nighthawk
4 skittering skirge

this deck plays quite well. i came to the conclusion that gatekeeper is bad card for the most part. primarily its a slow edict that yields you a bear. no legacy deck is threatened by a bear. shriekmaw may be better i think but its still slow

i play fetches to get closer to the cards i want. its usually never an issue.

since i and you play confidant, snuff plus hatred is going to cause you issues with confidant. i have 3 pricy cards and usually have no problem. you have 6.

i don't like confidant either but there were not really any other decent choices. also confidant allowed me to smooth out my mana when i draw only one swamp in my opening hand. before i would mulligan a one swamp hand as you really need 2 in your opening to cast hymn early and what not. maybe if it had a ritual i would keep it. confidant allows me to keep one land hands. i only play him last also after i have exhausted other beatdown cards.

nighthawk also allows you to cast hatred with potentially no life loss as you gain as much life or more 2 more actually then you lose.

also i usually side out confidant if i side in snuff for the most part. that's about it really.

oh and withering wisps is another win conditions if your opponent runs 1 butt guys.

Please start using the Shift key. Thank you. ~ Nihil Credo

hmmm I think just the opposite - gatekeeper has proven to be awesome. It has synergy with volrath's stronghold, it makes them sac a creature then can still chump. It can carry equipment. It's never a dead card. Also why skittering skirge? seems bad in a deck that is 1/3 creatures. Maybe Oona's Prawler in its place? same power and has flying but the drawback isn't as bad, especially when we are already playing discard. Second thought with these reanimator decks you might not want to put her out if you feel your opponent might be playing reanimator or dredge.

oh and nightmare lash is horrible.

[3ktor]

Vampire Nighthawk > Hypnotic Specter in Legacy format atm

[3ktor]

Vampire Nighthawk > Hypnotic Specter in Legacy Format atm

Nighthawk kills Tarmogoyf / Knight of the Reliquary / Countryside Crusher / Terravore and at the same time you gain life...

also he can kill everything in those decks :

Affinity
Aggro Loam
Angel Stompy
Dragon Stompy
Fearie Stompy
Bant Aggro
CounterSliver
Boros Deck
Zoo
Fish
Elves
Goblins
Merfolks
Fearies
Threshold
White Weenie
Team America
.....

NOW what Hypnotic Specter can do vs those decks ?

[Tacosnape]

Vampire Nighthawk > Hypnotic Specter in Legacy Format atm

Nighthawk kills Tarmogoyf / Knight of the Reliquary / Countryside Crusher / Terravore and at the same time you gain life...

also he can kill everything in those decks :

Affinity
Aggro Loam
Angel Stompy
Dragon Stompy
Fearie Stompy
Bant Aggro
CounterSliver
Boros Deck
Zoo
Fish
Elves
Goblins
Merfolks
Fearies
Threshold
White Weenie
Team America
.....

NOW what Hypnotic Specter can do vs those decks ?

While I don't necessarily disagree that Nighthawk >> Specter, you picked out every single aggro deck in the format to make your point, most of which aren't DTBs, aren't common, and 4-5 that see play like never. This completely omits matchups where Specter blows Nighthawk out of the water, such as any combo match short of possibly Reanimator, Landstill, etc.

Additionally, some of your assessments are wrong. A turn one Specter is game-breaking for Merfolk. Completely and utterly game-breaking. I've played Merfolk against Sui Black endlessly, as I own Merfolk and one of my friends plays exclusively Sui Black. And if I can't stop a fast Specter? I lose. It will rip 2-3 cards from me and in doing so, rip my ability to try to race their guys. And depending on my Sui build, I might rather have Specter against a few others listed there. As Merfolk, I would MUCH rather see Vampire Nighthawk all day long than ever have to deal with Specter.

[3ktor]

I dont think that Reanimator or Dredge have any problem to see a Hypnotic Specter on board...

Landstill / Enchantress yes BUT

SUI BLACK has advantages vs those decks either with out Specter ! THAT'S THE POINT ! that i m trying to explain you...

Landstill isnt a problem for a sui black with or with not Specter.. but vs Zoo / Aggro loam specter is a dead card and sui black a dead deck , for example :)

maybe Specter is better vs Merfolk only if you play it in the first turn.. Nighthawk isn bad for first turn..and he is for sure much better to play him turn 3 or 4 vs merfolks and vs all decks

[Galroth]

Personally, I play both. :)

[necrowil]

It's a moot point as both are good enough for main deck. The only thing that has changed in this deck for me is the sideboard since the new set.

Sideboard

3 Perish
2 Keeper of the Dead
2 Withering Wisps
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Extirpate

I am considering a Bojuku Bog or two main deck as well but we will see. Different types of graveyard hate get around Chalice of the Void which is typically boarded in against this deck.

[Tacosnape]

I dont think that Reanimator or Dredge have any problem to see a Hypnotic Specter on board...

Landstill / Enchantress yes BUT

SUI BLACK has advantages vs those decks either with out Specter ! THAT'S THE POINT ! that i m trying to explain you...

Landstill isnt a problem for a sui black with or with not Specter..

Test more. Suicide Black gets destroyed by Landstill. I'm somewhere between 10-1 and 15-1 with this matchup sanctioned lifetime, and not much worse outside of sanctioned. Specter's the best chance Sui has.

Enchantress also doesn't have too hard of a time with this either, given how ungodly sick Elephant Grass is against the deck, and given how Suicide Black has absolutely no way to kill an Enchantress's Presence once it hits play short of Dystopia.



It's a moot point as both are good enough for main deck.

That's your opinion. I don't think either one is good enough for the main deck.

[necrowil]

Test more. Suicide Black gets destroyed by Landstill. I'm somewhere between 10-1 and 15-1 with this matchup sanctioned lifetime, and not much worse outside of sanctioned. Specter's the best chance Sui has.

Enchantress also doesn't have too hard of a time with this either, given how ungodly sick Elephant Grass is against the deck, and given how Suicide Black has absolutely no way to kill an Enchantress's Presence once it hits play short of Dystopia.

That's your opinion. I don't think either one is good enough for the main deck.

my deck is more like 50/50 vs landstill and enchantress. and both decks are exactly the reason i run hatred main deck. you hold the ritual and just kill them on turn 3 or 4. they usually don't see it coming

if neither is good enough, what do you use?

enchantress usually also dies to the eight land destruction cards i run plus hymn. if not, they win

landstill usually dies to hatred and graveyard hate. if not, they win

deck looks like this at the moment

sideboard
4 phyrexian negator
3 perish
2 umezawa's jitte
2 withering wisps
2 ravenous trap
2 extirpate

main
7 snow-covered swamp
2 verdant catacombs
2 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 salt flats
2 bojuku bog
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 duress
4 sinkhole
4 hymn to tourach
3 hatred
4 dark confidant
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 vampire nighthawk
4 skittering skirge

:)

[Galroth]

Necrowil - What's with your mana-base? Am I missing something? Bojuku Bogs I can kind of get... but Salt Flats? And what's the need for all of the sac-lands?

Also, why Skittering Skirge. I mean, I love Skirge and I want to see him work, but with 20 creatures / just doesn't seem like it's going to happen. Why not Gatekeeper (you don't have removal at all), or Nyxathid (another good finisher like Shade). If the idea is just to blitz through the opponent / land a hatred, then why not Dauthi Slayer? Doesn't hurt your other creatures and he's guaranteed to to hit.


Taco - What build of Sui do commonly play against? My experience is that Sui is favored against Landstill and Enchantress. I'd be interested to see how my build differs from your friends.

[necrowil]

Necrowil - What's with your mana-base? Am I missing something? Bojuka Bogs I can kind of get... but Salt Flats? And what's the need for all of the sac-lands?

Also, why Skittering Skirge. I mean, I love Skirge and I want to see him work, but with 20 creatures / just doesn't seem like it's going to happen. Why not Gatekeeper (you don't have removal at all), or Nyxathid (another good finisher like Shade). If the idea is just to blitz through the opponent / land a hatred, then why not Dauthi Slayer? Doesn't hurt your other creatures and he's guaranteed to hit.


Taco - What build of Sui do commonly play against? My experience is that Sui is favored against Landstill and Enchantress. I'd be interested to see how my build differs from your friends.

marsh flats is a typo. i think its salt flats. the white/black fetchland.

bokuka bog is an amazing card. it cannot be countered and it's bye bye graveyard. we all know how valuable that is with so many problematic graveyard cards.

so basically i have

8 swamp
8 fetchland
2 bojuka bog
4 wasteland

that's 22 land. the bogs really are main deck graveyard hate, but they can work for mana as well even though they are vulnerable to wasteland. hell, i want more of them but drawing too many land that come into play tapped is not good. the fetchlands should be obvious. just trying to thin my deck out and get to cards i need.

i am currently not running hatred in the deck at the moment. i start 2 jitte over hatred. and replaced the jite in the sideboard with keeper of the dead.

regarding your question of creatures. me personally, i don't like more then 8 3 cc creatures main deck. once you have more. the deck just plays too slowly. that basically leaves 2cc creatures

on gatekeeper, its my personal opinion that it is too slow and not worth it. you play him at best on turn 3 to remove your opponents weakest creature and have 2/2 to show for it which is no threat to anyone. a 2/2 in this format is terrible if not useless and diabolic edict is bad in this deck. so the way i see it you have removal which is not targeted which is overpriced and expensive combined with a weak creature that can be blocked by mishra's factory which is basically what gatekeeper is. the other issue with gatekeeper is you want to wait until your opponent does something which in my opinion you do not ever want to do with this deck.

nyxathid requires you to run extra discard in my opinion to be effective. you could do that but i find it unnecessary. personally, i would run negator first as at least i know its always going to be 5/5.

so you have 8 creatures 3cc creatures and ask yourself what you would rather face off against, a gatekeeper or a nighthawk. nighthawk is stronger even though it is not removal per se. and we already discussed hypnotic specter. so those are my 3cc cards. you could even cut one to run 7. like a nighthawk i might.

the rest of the deck costs 2 and these are the guys

dark confidant
nantuko shade
skittering skirge

you suggested dauthi slayer. again what would you rather your opponent not have. shade is a problem for a lot of decks because of how fast it can kill you. many decks can't let it resolve. while confidant is not a threat, do you really want your opponent drawing extra cards? cards which may win him the game. most people would say no.

lastly is skirge which is probably the hardest to explain. what skirge does is supplement your damage. i play 4 because i always want on in play. you just throw him down with any flyer say nighthawk or specter and you are hitting for 5 a turn from the sky AND either gaining life or taking their cards. while many will try to ignore the skirge to stop you from playing more creatures, what ends up happening is they have to deal with it or die. a 2/2 from the air or 2/3 from the air does not put pressure, but a 3/2 does a lot. its just math. they usually kill the nighthawk or specter and leave the skirge. and the skirge usually comes close to killing them.

other thing valuable about skirge is it can block. it can block serra avenger. i like them vs dredge to play another creature behind them and remove my opponents bridges and it gets around moat. slayer does not provide the same pressure. i tested it. it's less damage, it can't block and my opponents in many situations ignored it. a skirge can be ignored for a little while, but they have to deal with it eventually.

i go back and forth on hatred. the idea is not to blitz your opponent and cast hatred. this does not work as we have determined. the plan of this deck is to play creatures your opponent should have to have an answer to or lose. hatred is merely a utility card to create an additional win condition. that's all it is. i play 2 now if at all. hatred really shines vs dream halls and belcher decks or ad nauseum even. i know its strange but sometimes you can just win and go to the next game. and the risk is low. with 12 flyers in the deck, you are basically guaranteed evasion and if it resolves on nighthawk you get back the life you lost if they have no answer.

finally, i'm seeing that 6 graveyard cards get the job done.

2 extirpate
2 bojuka bog
2 ravenous trap

they are varied to get around chalice of the void which is often boarded into to stop graveyard cards. i realize the removal is light and iffy

2 umezawa's jitte
2 withering wisps
2 keeper of the dead

but many of the cards are game winners if they can't answer. because of the bogs they are likely not to have a graveyard and this is where keeper shines. they have to remove it. and wisps deals with the many problematic 1/1s in the game or that goblin storm card. all of them control the game basically if not answered. and we have already talked about how suicide must play cards that give an advantage. not just break even like spot removal.

[badjuju]

Super necro.

Anyways, this deck piqued my interest. It makes use of Death's Shadow (yea remember the terrible 13/13 we all got excited about for nothing?) and really throws lifetotals out the window. Maybe not the smartest idea with Zoo and Seismic Loam running around, but the list looks both exciting and promising doing what black does best: hard-hitting, crazily suicidal aggro.

4 Flesh Reaver
3 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Death's Shadow

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Contract

4 Lotus Petal
3 Snuff Out
2 Kaervek's Spite

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Wasteland
9 Swamp
# 60

Sideboard:

4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
2 Dystopia
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Yixlid Jailer

So I'm not sure how much of this deck needs an introduction, but it allows you to play cards that have those life-loss drawbacks with reason now.

Tombstalker and Shade are the regular black staples, while Fleshreaver, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and Death's Shadow have been added. Fleshreaver can butt heads with almost anything in the format and provides an enabler for Death's Shadow. Gatekeeper of Malakir is self-explanatory as an edict on a stick. And Death's Shadow has become a primary focus of the deck, allowing for quick, efficient beatdown. The only problem with Death's Shadow is that it really doesn't become all that great until you're sub-10 life (and under 7 life if you want to start attacking profitably). It shouldn't be that hard to accomplish this, but at the same time you could randomly get burned out.

Thoughtseize can be run without feeling bad (lol) and Infernal Contract is just flat out amazing gas for the deck. The card is a bit risky, but when paired with Death's Shadow allows itself to become pretty decent. Another idea is to run Skeletal Scrying, but the deck runs off 13 lands (13!!!!!). Not too sure about Lotus Petal either, but I suppose it helps fill the yard for Tombstalker as well as enabling more busted early-turn plays. I think the real answer here is probably Dark Confidant :P

Snuff Out is an auto-include and Kaervek's Spite is quite the awesome finisher. Even with Gatekeeper, I'd probably still want to run some more removal (like Smothers), just to make sure my beats can consistently fly through.

It's an interesting take, and I think I'll be proxying this up for a test drive.

[slylie]

Super necro.

Anyways, this deck piqued my interest. It makes use of Death's Shadow (yea remember the terrible 13/13 we all got excited about for nothing?) and really throws lifetotals out the window. Maybe not the smartest idea with Zoo and Seismic Loam running around, but the list looks both exciting and promising doing what black does best: hard-hitting, crazily suicidal aggro.

4 Flesh Reaver
3 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Death's Shadow

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Contract

4 Lotus Petal
3 Snuff Out
2 Kaervek's Spite

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Wasteland
9 Swamp
# 60

Sideboard:

4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
2 Dystopia
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Yixlid Jailer

So I'm not sure how much of this deck needs an introduction, but it allows you to play cards that have those life-loss drawbacks with reason now.

Tombstalker and Shade are the regular black staples, while Fleshreaver, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and Death's Shadow have been added. Fleshreaver can butt heads with almost anything in the format and provides an enabler for Death's Shadow. Gatekeeper of Malakir is self-explanatory as an edict on a stick. And Death's Shadow has become a primary focus of the deck, allowing for quick, efficient beatdown. The only problem with Death's Shadow is that it really doesn't become all that great until you're sub-10 life (and under 7 life if you want to start attacking profitably). It shouldn't be that hard to accomplish this, but at the same time you could randomly get burned out.

Thoughtseize can be run without feeling bad (lol) and Infernal Contract is just flat out amazing gas for the deck. The card is a bit risky, but when paired with Death's Shadow allows itself to become pretty decent. Another idea is to run Skeletal Scrying, but the deck runs off 13 lands (13!!!!!). Not too sure about Lotus Petal either, but I suppose it helps fill the yard for Tombstalker as well as enabling more busted early-turn plays. I think the real answer here is probably Dark Confidant :P

Snuff Out is an auto-include and Kaervek's Spite is quite the awesome finisher. Even with Gatekeeper, I'd probably still want to run some more removal (like Smothers), just to make sure my beats can consistently fly through.

It's an interesting take, and I think I'll be proxying this up for a test drive.

Suicide Black 2019 AKA speeddeath AKA Cardboard Deth AKA "I.J.A.A.F.J" AKA 'its suicide for really really real this time'


4x Death's Shadow
4x Flesh Reaver
4x Ebon Drake
4x Carnophage

2x Hatred
4x Thoughtseize
4x Infernal Contract
4x Cruel Bargain

4x Dark Ritual
4x Chrome mox
4x Infernal Contract
2x Cruel Bargain
2x Lich's tomb

4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished citadel
4x Cabal Pit
2x Tomb of Urami
+ more lands that hurt to play

The point of the deck is to kill yourself so your death's shadows get big.Don't forget to always pay the 3 life on citadel even if you are tapping for colorless mana. Hatred on a death's shadow doubbles the effect which is totaly fly. Drop a lich's tomb and the party don't stop.

[JohnnyCage]

Deaths shadow isn't efficient as its low mana cost is negated by the fact we have to be near death for it to not suck

[necrowil]

this is bad card. everytime my opponent has played it against me, i win. the card stops them from winning and me losing, leaving me winning and them losing as the only alternative.