[Deck] Suicide Black [Archive] - Page 9

miccel

07-13-2015, 06:14 AM

If you having problems with Miracles, try running Phyrexian Negator. That card will absolutely wreck them. The clock is too fast if it resolves, and is also good against combo. Also Duress is a good option for Miracles too.

No Lightning Bolt??? Would help against YP or other creature removal.
I love very much negator!!! I'm trying to re-build a "classic" suicide list to run it!!! But with a lot of burns spell around i think i will put it in SB for combo/control/no red MU...

Something like this:

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
3 gatekeeper of malakir
3 snuff out
2 umezawa's jitte
3 pithing needle
8 fetch lands
9 swamp
4 wasteland
SB
2 tormod's crypt
3 dystopia
3 phyrexian negator
3 extirpate
4 engineered plague

Classic desruption/tempo packege with discards, LD and snuff out but i choose Thought seize over IoK to have the possibility to cut ALL i want...crucial when facing FoW, sneak attack, jace, batterskull etc..
I love my beta specters...i need them :-)
4 Tombstalker are not hard to play with a lot of fetch lands and discard spells, it is a fast clock and not many decks can deal with.
Nantuko....old glory...i can't find anything better... :-(
Gatekeeper is an extra removal with legts... maybe chump blocker
3 pithing needles as an answer for SdT, planeswalkers, vials, shamans, stoneforges....i can't play monoblack without them...

I will try to find the room for a singleton phyrexian arena or skeletal scrying...

I'm testing this list with my friends who plays merfolks, D&T and UG infect...it works very well!!!
Next time i'll try other fair MUs like grixis, Bug delver, uwr patriot....

Jo11ygrnreefer

07-13-2015, 05:12 PM

I am gonna post my updated Suicide Black list later today with card explanations which I think is more optimized with todays meta. I am at work now so, but think your on the right track and my list has a few tweeks from yours.

movingtonewao

07-14-2015, 04:35 AM

I think bitterblossom warrants a slot here in the 75. Resolving it against miracles puts you in a pretty good spot.

MadScientist777

07-18-2015, 06:25 AM

@Ralf and disgustipated

Very interesting deck. I will be sleeving it up. I think the deck can be very strong bc very few decks punish you for paying half your life for drawing 4 cards. Not too much burn in the meta. You should be ahead after the draw 4 as long as you are not punished for the life loss.

Some thoughts: What about a single chrome mox. Seems like the perfect deck for it. Also, lotus petal. I don't think it can go in here now bc you want to get to and stay at the 3 mana mark but if the curve were a little lower....

Also, what about taking out bile blights and soul spikes and putting in bolts/IoKs/or something else. Seems like the deck can get more out of those spots.

Messenger and Gatekeeper seem really good. Have you thought about {cards} young pyromancer, Goblin Rabblemaster? Or about Gurmag Angler or Tombstalker for the Empty the Pits slot.

disgustipated... hope you keep streaming the deck!

Whats the newest lists...?

Ralf

07-19-2015, 09:32 PM

Thanks for your response :)

I've noticed the deck struggles a bit if overwhelmed with Young Pyromancer tokens or creatures in multiple in the early game - especially if we don't have Dark Ritual at the right times to catch up or if a crucial removal spell gets dazed/countered. I have been trying Grim Lavamancer as a 1 of or 2 of in the MD (or perhaps 1 MD 1 SB) to combat this. I am also trying Marsh Casualties as a 1-of in the main over a Bile Blight.

Have you tested Engineered Plague in the side, or Dread of Night? Permanent based SB hate is probably a little less desirable since it doesnt fill up our GY, but despite this I think these cards deserve a look. I just played against D & T and Grim Lavamancer cleaned up their board quite nicely. Perhaps Lavamancer would take up the Plague / Pyroclasm spots? I understand Lavamancer wouldn't be terrific in multiples (unless the first one eats removal spell) especially since it messes with the Empty the Pits finisher, but when Lavamancer maintains board control (stops them from playing their creatures) we can clean out their hand with discard and have more time to get to 4 mana and fill up the GY for E.T.P delve. Lavamancer is also good for shrinking Goyfs in the early game and can keep them in Bile Blight range - or you can ping the Goyf for 2 then follow up with B.B.

I do think 1 sweeper would be nice in the main. Toxic Deluge, Drown in Sorrow, Marsh Casualties, something along these lines. Hell, perhaps even Electrickery. Tokens / lots of x/1s screw up the edict plan as they allow opponent to sacrifice their worthless creatures to keep their beefy Goyfs or Tasigurs swinging. Big Game Hunter seems like a nice answer to Goyf / Tasigur as well but I don't think BGH deserves a spot in the main since so many decks run creatures with only less than 4 power. The Madness feature isn't irrelevant because often if I get off an early Draw 4 I have to discard 1.

Sorry guys, I am on vacations right now and have very little time to play magic.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about sweepers before submitting the list to you.
I did try toxic deluge in the past.
Just keep in mind that the main problem is not to clog our hands with 3 CMC spells and they are plenty already.
Cutting some 2 CMC spells (bile blight to name it) might be dangerous in the long run.
Cutting some 3 CMC spells could be an option. But it will be detrimental to our clock because you would most likely cut some gatekeeper or geralf.
If this is the path you want to take. Why not. Just keep testing to be sure it is not detrimental to other MU.

Keep in mind that the deck core, as I built it, was about spiking and drawing 4. If any of you come with better wincons (gate, geralf, empty) and better control tools, please share your discovery.
Instant and sorcery speed is also something to consider.
For example cutting Geth's verdict and replacing them with bile blight made me weak to Marit lage EOT strategy but it improved the token MU.

You could also look at Fire covenant in the sweeper category. Not as strong as toxic can be, but instant speed can be a matter of life or death.

Also I am not sold yet on the red splash. Being reactive is nice and all but I think 4 REB effect is one too many. This could open a slot for another sweeper in the side.
Keep in mind that our worse enemies are hard control decks and combo ones.

If I had to make any changes right now I would test 4 thoughtseize intensively instead of inquisition of kozilek and cut a REB effect in the side for either another sweeper or another anti combo/control card.

Keep rocking suicide.
Once you go black, you never go back !!!

Ralf

11-09-2015, 05:32 AM

Hello,

I attempted to a legacy tournament this week-end and finished 15th.
7 swiss rounds for 69 players.

Here is the list I played (revamped) since the DTT ban:

Black Suicide by Ralf.

Mana
7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
3 Bayou
3 Dark ritual

Kill conditions
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits

Removal
4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Draw spells
4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain

Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage

Round 1 -> Draw against D&T. 1/1 (huge miss play that cost me G2. Should have been a win)
Round 2 -> Win against Jund. 2/1
Round 3 -> Lose against Miracle. 0/1
Round 4 -> Win against BUG Tempo. 2/0
Round 5 -> Win against Miracle. 2/1 (should have been 2/0 but I got a game loss coming from a registration error)
Round 6 -> Win against Miracle. 2/0
Round 7 -> Lose against 4c loam. 2/1 (that was the win-and-in. Mana death G2 & G3.)

If you have any question or if you want something more detailed, please feel free to ask.

Xod

11-12-2015, 05:26 AM

Just bought all the necessary cards to build this deck.

Looks a very fun concept. Any advice to play the deck? Do you mostly shoot of creatures with the soul spikes or mainly at the opponent or just based on the situation? And do you push the Empty the Pits very early or only when you have board control?

I love dark ritual, and especially when you can spam it turn one with a HTT and a Thoughtseize/IoK. But also with Empty the Pits.

When is a good moment to use one of your 'draw 4' cards? ASAP or just when your hand is getting depleted? With the second, you 'save' more lives, but with the first, it's 'easier' to cast a Death's Shadow sooner.

If you have details about your games, that would be great!

Ralf

11-12-2015, 06:55 AM

Hello Xod,

First thing of all things, thank you for showing some interest.

I'll try my best to answer any questions you might have.

Soul Spike

There is not only one way to play SS.
As you wrote, it mainly depends on the situation (and your/oppo's hands).

BUT the more you'll play the deck, the better you'll know when you have to play it ASAP.
Sometimes, killing a flipped delver ASAP is the best play (obviously when you have access to no other options and you feel like your hand is very very slow).
Otherwise, I usually try to keep & hide this card as much as I can; just because it is just such a blowout...

Draw 4

I don't pretend the learning curve of this deck to be among the hardest...BUT, knowing when to play a draw 4 will often be a matter of life or death.
First you have to assess what "role" you are playing against what MU.

If you are on the aggro side, the faster, the better (control, combo).
Vice-versa if you are in the control seat (Burn, Tempo mainly), the latter, the better.

As you have already caught up the best play will always be based on any situation.

For example, against combo (post side), one of the best possible opening hand could be something like that:

T1 -> fetch + TS
T2-> DR + draw 4 + fetch + DS (death's shadow) + surgical extraction

And you already have a 8+/8+ ready to "rox" by T3.

Empty the Pits

As a one-of, you won't always see the card in every MU.
Here again, it mainly depends on the situation and on what you are trying to achieve.

This card shines against grindy MU (mainly against midrange decks: Jund, Shardless, D&T preside, etc...).
Against these MU, I usually wait until the very last moment to unleash it.

Example: the last game against the Jund player in my report, I waited until he ultimated me with liliana, took all the mana in my pool and let the ulti to resolve. End of turn, I made 8 zombie tokens.
For my opponent, this was a digusting loss when he thought he had the game "under control".

Just tell me what kind of details you want.

Here is the sideboard plan I used during the last tournament (might need a lot of improvments as I'm not playing as much as I would like; base is not yet covered up as much as I would like as Burn and obviously 4 color loam are missing).

Elves

1 Golgari charm
2 Engineered plague
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate
3 Surgical extraction

-1 Swamp
-2 Infernal Contract
-4 Soul Spike
-1 Empty the Pits
-2 HTT
-2 Gatekeeper

Sneak

3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari
2 Pithing Needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate

-2 Soul spike
-4 Abrupt Decay
-3 Dismember
-1 Swamp

RUG Delver

2 Liliana
1 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical extraction
2 Engineered Plague

-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain
-2 Soul Spike
-1 Empty the Pits
-2 HTT
-1 Maelstrom Pulse

Jund

3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate

-2 HTT
-2 Soul Spike
-1 Dark ritual
-1 Infernal Contract

Shardless

3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate
2 Liliana

-2 HTT
-3 Soul Spike
-2 Dark Ritual
-1 Infernal Contract

BUG Delver

2 Liliana
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate

-2 Infernal Contract
-3 Soul Spike
-1 Empty the Pits
-2 HTT

Storm

2 Liliana
3 Surgical extraction
2 Engineered plague
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Golgari charm
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

-2 Abrupt decay
-1 Empty the Pits
-3 Dismember
-4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
-1 Swamp

Miracle (non monastery)

2 Liliana
2 Pithing needle
3 Surgical extraction
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reanimate

-3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
-3 Dismember
-2 Thougthseize
-3 Dark ritual
-2 Abrupt Decay

D&T

2 Pithing needle
1 Golgari charm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana
1 Spinning darkness
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Reanimate

-1 Thoughtseize
-1 empty the pits
-3 Soul spike
-4 HTT
-2 Infernal Contract

MUD

2 Liliana
1 Null Rod
2 Surgical extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Reanimate

-4 Soul Spike
-1 Dark Ritual
-4 TS

Infect

1 Golgari charm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spinning darkness
3 Surgical Extraction

-1 Swamp
-1 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain
-1 Soul Spike
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Empty the Pits
-1 Gatekeeper
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-2 Hymn to Tourach

Reanimator

2 Liliana
1 Sylvan Library
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Reanimate

-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 HTT
-1 Empty the Pits
-1 Swamp
-1 Infernal Contract
-1 Soul Spike

Eldrazi

2 Liliana
3 Surgical extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Engineered Plague
1 Reanimate

-4 Soul Spike
-3 Dark Ritual
-1 TS
-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain

Burn

1 Golgari Charm
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Reanimate
3 Surgical extraction

-2 Cruel Bargain
-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Overgrown Tomb
-1 Thoughtseize

If you have any questions, feedbacks...etc.

Feel free to shoot.

Happy testing.

Cheers,

Ralf.

Edit 1: Infect updated
Edit 2: Eldrazi + Burn added / Sideboard tables were reworked to include a Reanimate instead of the 2nd Spinning Darkness

Xod

11-12-2015, 08:14 AM

If you are on the aggro side, the faster, the better (control, combo).

T1 -> fetch + TS
T2-> DR + draw 4 + fetch + DS (death's shadow) + surgical extraction

And you already have a 8+/8+ ready to "rox" by T3.

I think this is a 7/7 :wink: but math aside, doesn't that leave you extremely vunerable to for example a Tendrils of Agony with a very low storm count? (of course with a hidden Soul Spike it can work, but it's risky, heck, it's Suicide Black :laugh:)

Infect

1 Golgari charm
2 Engineered plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Liliana
2 Spinning darkness
3 Surgical Extraction

-1 Swamp
-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain
-1 Soul Spike
-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Empty the Pits
-1 Gatekeeper
-1 Maelstrom Pulse

Abrupt Decay out against infect??? I would say it's quite good against it. Instant removal that can't be countered, no matter how big the creature gets.

EDIT: ok I was thinking, checked it, and indeed, the 'nonland' part might be your reason. :smile:

Also, my main 'budget' problem is that I don't have liliana's. I might include Geth's Verdict or Innocent Blood for the moment (in the SB)

Ralf

11-12-2015, 09:28 AM

I think this is a 7/7 :wink: but math aside, doesn't that leave you extremely vunerable to for example a Tendrils of Agony with a very low storm count? (of course with a hidden Soul Spike it can work, but it's risky, heck, it's Suicide Black :laugh:)

I should have made a life breakdown

T1 = 17 (fetch + TS)
T2= draw 4 -> 8 (lifeloss is rounded up), then fetch -> 7, then surgical for phyrexian mana = 5

So...DS should be 8+/8+ on your turn 3.

My friend played against ANT twice during the same tournament (nearly the same list but he can't get rid off Messenger...) and he killed a storm player on a G1 with SS because his opponent went all the way down with Ad Nauseam. Hilarious to say the least.

Against Infect, I admit the sideboard guide must be pushed to its limit. Getting rid of AD might not be the best idea and numbers might be tweaked. If anyone wants to help for sideboard strategy after a good bunch of testing, he is more than welcome.

Liliana works as an anti-combo/control/midrange tools. All-in-one.
She will be hard to replace. I have no idea for the moment for such another card which provide so many angle of attacks.

Let me think about it a bit.

I may be able to come up with a budget replacement.

Svyelunite

11-12-2015, 09:43 AM

Abrupt Decay out against infect??? I would say it's quite good against it. Instant removal that can't be countered, no matter how big the creature gets.)

Vines of Vastwood begs to differ. Not saying AD isn't good against infect, but its not unstoppable, and there are other options that can get Inkmoth also.

Xod

11-12-2015, 10:30 AM

T1 = 17 (fetch + TS)
T2= draw 4 -> 8 (lifeloss is rounded up), then fetch -> 7, then surgical for phyrexian mana = 5

Dammit, I missed the second fetch. :laugh:

I know I need Lilly (for so many decks that I want to build, need to do the investment, investment of Nic Fit almost complete, need 2 more Savannah) If you only need to replace the discard, then you can use bottemless pit (which is slighty better against them, but also worse for you)

Also, will try the list with IoK first, because I don't own Thoughtseizes (another must buy). In your previous list it was not so necessary, but with Death's Shadow, I think TS is a must. (plus the better effect ofcourse)

Btw, I love Geraf Messenger also, what did he replace in your list to keep them in? The Shadows?

Ralf

11-12-2015, 10:39 AM

Btw, I love Geraf Messenger also, what did he replace in your list to keep them in? The Shadows?

3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp
2 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Geralf's Messenger
1 Empty the Pits
2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Ritual
4 Soul Spike
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Cruel Bargain
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Infernal Contract
4 Thoughtseize

SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Engineered Plague

4/3 Finish.

4CC delver : win 2/0.
Burn : loss 0/2.
Instant rea : loss 0/2
soldier stompy : win 2/0
storm : win 2/0
storm : win 2/0
burn : loss 0/2

He lost twice to Burn where I think my list is better and he made sideboard mistakes.
He lost to Rea because he is stupid :)

Edit:

1) He lost to burn because DRS + DS are a beating
2) He lost to burn because he spiked a creature and his opponent bolted it in response to prevent him from gaining life.
3) He lost to burn because he didn't learn from his previous mistake by spiking an active lavamancer.
4) He lost to Instant Rea because he didn't go for "entomb" type of card instead of going for "reanimation" spells...

Should I go any further ? That damn fool should have top'd 8 this tournament...

Xod

11-12-2015, 11:00 AM

1) He lost to burn because DRS + DS are a beating

This I don't understand, DRS + DS are good against Burn, are they not? DRS for lifegain purposes if necessary and DS keeps growing. Of course never on the field at the same time. Or would you leave them out all together?

Also, Spinning Darkness, does it gain you 3 lifes when you target a creature with it and they destroy it in response? Or does it fizzle because it doesn't have a target? Because the gain life part is a different line. (Am I such a noob? :cry:)

Ralf

11-12-2015, 11:17 AM

This I don't understand, DRS + DS are good against Burn, are they not? DRS for lifegain purposes if necessary and DS keeps growing. Of course never on the field at the same time. Or would you leave them out all together?

Also, Spinning Darkness, does it gain you 3 lifes when you target a creature with it and they destroy it in response? Or does it fizzle because it doesn't have a target? Because the gain life part is a different line. (Am I such a noob? :cry:)

1) His list differs from mine because he is playing 1 less DRS and 1 less DS. They can swing the match in your favor very easily (I showed him how my burn MU was better than his afterwards because of that)

2) Yeah, Spinning Darkness will fizzle if the target is no longer legal (dead). That's why you must pay extra care to when you play it (when your oppo is tapped out is the best time). If not, at least it is another blast that you won't take in your face.

This a case, where all of the targeted portions of a spell have fizzled, and thus all of the non-targeted portions of the spell
will not resolve

From the Comprehensive Rules

608.2b

If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that’s moved out of the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process to determine its characteristics. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word “target,” are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally, affecting only the targets that are still legal. If a target is illegal, the spell or ability can’t perform any actions on it or make the target perform any actions.

Example:
Aura Blast is a white instant that reads, “Destroy target enchantment. Draw a card.” If the enchantment isn’t a legal target during Aura Blast’s resolution (say, if it has gained protection from white or left play), then Aura Blast is countered. Its controller doesn’t draw a card.
Example:
Plague Spores reads, “Destroy target nonblack creature and target land. They can’t be regenerated.” Suppose the same animated land is chosen both as the nonblack creature and as the land, and the color of the creature land is changed to black before Plague Spores resolves. Plagues Spores isn’t countered because the black creature land is still a legal target for the “target land” part of the spell.

3) He should have targetted his opponent with SS, everytime. the +4/-4 differential is HUGE and not so easy to overcome for a burn player.

Xod

11-14-2015, 12:52 PM

The 27th I will hopefully test the deck. If you should have a replacement of liliana, I’ll hear it gladly ;-)

Thanks for all the great guidelines!

Ralf

11-16-2015, 02:02 PM

At least get some practise with it before going *live*.

A bunch of play tests against a deck belonging to each archetype (aggro, combo, control) should be a minimum.

I have thought about replacing the Lilis to meet your budget constraints.
I came to the conclusion that you should make it a meta 2-slots.

If you have no idea, I would pick the following:
- Hypnotic Specter might be the closest card to Liliana's effect in the sense that it is good against Control & Combo.
- You can also try Funeral Charm. This card is harder to play but can be a true blowout.

Have fun.

Xod

11-17-2015, 08:28 AM

Just did the purchase of 4 Thoughtseizes (already a big bite out of my budget) and I only have 2 bayou (I substitute the third with an overgrown tomb, it will be ok, plus I can fetch this one if I need to drop lifes to 'safe' a Death's Shadow or do a crucial blow)

Thanks for the tips on the Hippie and Funeral Charm. I used Funeral Charm in a pox deck once and it worked wonders, it's a swiss army knife. Discard, removal, buff and evasion in one package. If I'm running it (in the side or maybe main) I would run one or two Urborgs, helps the swampwalk ability on the Charm, especially on a Death's Shadow.

Hippie is indeed good, only downside is, it needs a full turn before it comes active. Bottemless Pit on the other hand activates on their upkeep and is harder to remove (but you will endure it as well and since this isn't a deck where you go hellbent...)

Thanks for the tips! Btw, the 27th is a biweekly FNM Legacy evening, very casual, with still a lot of competitive decks, so an ideal area to test it.

Xod

11-19-2015, 09:41 AM

Ralf

11-19-2015, 10:20 AM

I've been thinking (I probably know the answer), why no dark confidants or Phyrexian Obliberator?

Instead of the Deathrite Shaman/Death's Shadow. But indeed, an extra one drop is handy that can control the graveyard, the BoB could give you more card advantage, but so does the draw 4 cards, instantly. Plus hitting Soul spikes hurt. So I get why you don't include BoB.

But Phryrexian Obliberator, could that be an option? Instead of the Death's Shadow? I know that DS has a lot of synergie with the rest of the deck, but since you run mostly basics, less scared of wastes and play dark ritual and deathrite shaman, you can easily put that beast down in turn 2 or 3. STP kills it (free from Abrupt Decay though) and if STP hits DS, at least you go back to 13 life. So I see value in both.

Just a thought that he might be able to see play here.

Dark Confidant

You have basically answered the "why no Bob" question by yourself.
Let me further explain.

Bob is nice and all. Bob will be outstanding in some games, average to poor in some others.
You will (almost) never want to reveal a CMC 7 on him.
Bob was tested, weighted and finally dished.

The *sole* reason was because this deck wants to keep "control" of its life ressource at all cost and Bob's lifeloss is unpredictable.
Let's not add further consistency issues in a non (already) blue deck.

Phyrexian Obliterator

It was also tested.

1) On average, you will land him at about the same time as DS, but for 4 mana
2) On average, it gives less PV than DS when facing STP.decks
3) It doesn't fear decay
4) Its defending skills are "on par" (maybe a little better than DS and we could discuss that point for days) with DS
5) Its offensive skills are lower than DS.
6) Obliterator doesn't synergize with the whole deck's strategy.

The two last criteria are the most important.

The deck was built to swim between 1 and 6 life.
Let's imagine the following game state:

1) You are facing a tarmo 4/5 with a creature in play.
2) You are at 4 (bolt proof) and your opponent at 9.

Would rather have a DS or an Obliterator ?

a) With Obliterator, you will have to play the defensive role. Tarmo won't block but you won't be able to kill your opponent and you would die the very next turn.
b) With DS, you will be able to choose which role you wanna play. In this very case, tarmo is forced to block DS.

Anyway, please make your own tests and let's share some ideas !

Cheers,

Ralf.

Ralf

11-30-2015, 06:46 AM

The 27th I will hopefully test the deck. If you should have a replacement of liliana, I’ll hear it gladly ;-)

Thanks for all the great guidelines!

Cold feet or was it that terrible ?

Xod

12-04-2015, 02:21 AM

Sorry to keep you hanging so long. Been very bus.

It was that terrible :laugh:

But I'm sure it wasn't the deck. Played a 4 round FNM legacy evening. I went 1-3... And that was because my first round was a bye...

Anyway, round 2 I started against R/G lands. Great, all my removal works... And he managed to find historische combo rather quickly, even with discard (no loam). And then I made one crucial mistake. Probably since I don't play lands often. I thinkbar the situation was the following:
He had a Dark Depths or stage out and 3 other lands (I will never make the same mistake) and he had one card in hand. I had HTT, 2 dismembers, soulspike, gatekeeper and something else. I was on 8 life. I Played the HTT to get that one card out of his hand (stupid) because he crop rotated into his missing piece and created lage on EOT. Next turn he Attacks and I told him, I can survive this. Hé looked funny at me. But I must say, I had 2 deathrites out and 6 lands (2 used for HTT). Did I mentioned that I got manaflooded all night? Anyway, with the two deathrites I could hardcast the two dismembers and soulspike him to be on 2 lives . But there was my mistake. I've I hadn't cast HTT, I could had pitched it and the something else in my hand to soulspike and next turn cast gatekeeper to make him sacrifice lage. But since I didnt want to give Away the gatekeeper and the soulspike, I scooped. And I checked the top card, no gatekeeper. Second game hé found his combo rather quickly and I didnt find a pithing needle or sacrifice outlet with soulspike. Should have mulled for an answer I think.

I continue the rest later, because I'm writing this on the bus on my Phone because there I have some time :tongue:

Xod

12-04-2015, 02:56 AM

Here is the rest:

Third round was against BUG Delver, there I had the most fun all evening. I enjoyed a full game (and a half). I can't remember all the details clearly, but I mulled a onelander without shaman, to something like this. Thoughtseize, a remove piece, 2 swamps and two fetches. I thought, I'm not going to 5 against BUG and with the two fetches and scry I will probably see enough business spells (or so I thought).

Scry, D4 on top. With 4 lands, that's definitly not bad. Turn 3 when I played it, I think I drew 2 lands and 2 other spells. In the meantime after fetching and such I drew another land. I think I ended the game where I casted 2 or 3 D4's and I had 9 or 10 lands in play and 4 or 5 fetches in my graveyard.

2nd game was amazing, the deck finally worked, I think I killed/discarded almost every threat in his deck. Very exciting and fun game, my opponent also enjoyed it very much, even after I killed 2 or three of his liliana's :-) Won on Death's Shadow and gatekeeper beats.

Game 3, again I started with a not so good hand, again 3 or 4 lands, but with dark ritual and a liliana. I thought, why not, again with fetches, I should draw some threats. I kept it, and went liliana on turn 1 :-). I think I discarded one and killed a delver and a true-name and then surgical extrated the true-name. But then I kept drawing lands, one after another until I hit a D4, I think I casted 1 or 2 of those and found mostly land.

Round 4, I played against cloud post (yeeeey, again a game where my abrupt decays and dismembers will do a lot, at least my decays will do something more and I double dismembered his PrimeTime at some point) can't remember much, except that I lost 2-0 and saw a lot of lands (on both sides of the table :-))

Didn't find sac effects or needles, and the thing that almost tilted me (somebody else was watching my hand) was a D4 with already 7 lands in play, was a draw of 4 lands...

It just wasn't my evening. But I'm convinced that this deck will work and I did a couple of play mistakes, but getting flooded that whole evening was not so amusing. At least I saw the deck in action against BUG.

I will definitly will play it another time, but I like to play a lot of different decks and I want to play my Nic Fit deck a bit more often. (and I also have a sylvan plug, B/W Helmline and some other shenanigans ready to play) On a side note, the Sunday after, I played the Cure at a tournament with 45 people (only played it once before) and I almost got into the top 8, but was kept out against the same R/G land player... Still 3 wins, a draw and 2 losses with a funky deck is fun :-)

Ralf

12-04-2015, 03:17 AM

Wow.

Getting flooded all night with only 19 lands is very very awkward to say the least.

At least you finally get to play the deck.

Keep practising it with your friend as a fun deck until you are willing to give it another shot at a FNM !

James718

12-13-2015, 11:06 PM

Hey everybody,

I played this list today at South Florida Magic's weekly legacy event.

It is basically Ralfs list from a page back

Mana
7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
3 Bayou
3 Dark ritual

Kill conditions
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Geralfs Messenger
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits

Removal
4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Draw spells
4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain

Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spinning darkness
2x Geralfs Messenger
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage

Things did not go so well. It needs some tweaking.

Round 1 vs Lands (You can watch it on stream here (http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/v/29769403))
This was terrible matchup, there are SO many dead draws here. Game 1 was over very fast due to a quick combo, game 2 i won in what felt like an eternity, game 3 I lost to the 20/20. A serious sideboard change needs to be made to combat a lands/loam deck.
0-1

Round 2 vs Tezzerator
A resolved chalice on 1 crushed me game 1. Game 2 I landed a turn one thought seize and hymn buying me time.... and I drew nothing useful. Eventually I died to 5/5 artifacts with force of will crushing my soul (soul spike).
0-2

Round 3 vs DnT
What I thought would have been a very favorable matchup, I got hosed. Too many creatures negate the gatekeeper. A mom really hurts my decays and being taxed/ported out sucks.
0-3 drop

I feel like this is a for fun deck and not very competitive at all, there are so many vulnerabilities with this deck. I felt like having wastelands would have really helped many matchups but wastelands would be terrible in this deck.

Some serious changes need to be made here.

Ralf

12-14-2015, 01:52 AM

I feel like this is a for fun deck and not very competitive at all, there are so many vulnerabilities with this deck. I felt like having wastelands would have really helped many matchups but wastelands would be terrible in this deck.

Some serious changes need to be made here.

Hey, thanks for showing interest to the deck.

Too bad if it didn't end up well.
Still, I can assure you the deck has been heavily tested.

Few comments:

1) 4 Gatekeeper are a must. Shaving 1 for 1 messenger is not something I would recommend. Even if my friend plays a different list than mine, it does not mean you should do it (and he has likely 200 games with it).

2) 2nd pithing needle in the sideboard would have helped you more than messenger in the Board (against your MU) like the one of Sylvan Library.

3) Netdecking is nice and all but be sure to play the suggested list or at least play test a bit before showing up to a tournament. You cannot expect to do great with a rogue deck like this one without proper preparation.

4) Don't blame the deck for your poor results. It happens.
Your MUs were not very easy and this deck has no free wins.

Well, take all this with a grain of salt.

Fix your list, train harder and let's discuss afterwards and remember shit happens...

James718

12-14-2015, 09:38 AM

Hey, thanks for showing interest to the deck.

Too bad if it didn't end up well.
Still, I can assure you the deck has been heavily tested.

Few comments:

1) 4 Gatekeeper are a must. Shaving 1 for 1 messenger is not something I would recommend. Even if my friend plays a different list than mine, it does not mean you should do it (and he has likely 200 games with it).

2) 2nd pithing needle in the sideboard would have helped you more than messenger in the Board (against your MU) like the one of Sylvan Library.

3) Netdecking is nice and all but be sure to play the suggested list or at least play test a bit before showing up to a tournament. You cannot expect to do great with a rogue deck like this one without proper preparation.

4) Don't blame the deck for your poor results. It happens.
Your MUs were not very easy and this deck has no free wins.

Well, take all this with a grain of salt.

Fix your list, train harder and let's discuss afterwards and remember shit happens...

1. Did you watch the match? The messenger saved the game! How do you deal with an elf/DnT list when they have many creatures on the board. The kicked gatekeeper doesnt do much there.

2. Yes for sure.

3. Yes, I agree but my expectation was to have fun and I did. Which is also why I posted here because I am looking to get better with it. I needed a place to start and I liked your list and gave it a shot.

4. Im not blaming the deck at all, I just want to know how i can better prepare for a loam heavy meta. The lands matchup is almost unwinnable especailly without an instant speed edict.

Thanks for the reply though.

The only thing that i was the most disappointed about was that i never got to play an empty the pits :( That is such an excellent out that I never got to draw. Man, that would have been fun

Ralf

12-14-2015, 10:15 AM

Thanks for the reply though.

The only thing that i was the most disappointed about was that i never got to play an empty the pits :( That is such an excellent out that I never got to draw. Man, that would have been fun

->1) I didn't watch the game because I was in the train. Did you use the board strat I have provided one page back ?

D&T is an uphill battle:

1) You lose to an unanswered MoR T1 (involving a SFM @ some point)
2) You lose to Batterskull / Mirran crusader
3) You lose to mana denial
4) You win because you have a perfect curve + infinite removal (T1, T2, T3, Draw 4, rince and repeat)
5) You win because he floods and his mana denial strat doesn't work as good on you as on other decks.
6) You win EOT making 12 + zombie tokens

Post side, you have access to even more removals (liliana, Spinning and Golgari charm) + 2 Engineered plague (naming "human") and 1 sylvan library which shines against midrange decks.

->3) If you really want to improve Lands' MU, try:

- The second needle in the side (Obviously needle should name thespian's stage)
- Leyline of the void is a very good card as well.

I truly believe that Lands is not the most difficult MU and we have the tools to fight back (G2 and G3, obviously G1 we have a lot of dead cards):
- DRS is a pain for them (even with PF)
- Surgical and Pithing are very good.

But well, Lands is a huge PAIN for any fair deck.
The board strategy has to be worked out (to be honest I barely face Lands here so I do not have any board strat to offer right now. Let me think about it.)

Curby

12-14-2015, 11:48 AM

- The second needle in the side (Obviously needle should name thespian's stage)

Just a quick note: if he's got Stages out copying something else (like Port), you have to name the copied card to shut them off.

mistercakes

12-14-2015, 12:01 PM

if death and taxes is feeling too difficult, feel free to play some massacres or dread of night.

Ralf

12-14-2015, 01:05 PM

if death and taxes is feeling too difficult, feel free to play some massacres or dread of night.

From the tests we have run, the sideboard is already as nasty as it gets against D&T. You can tweak the sideboard as much as you want to cope with a local meta, just be aware that the sideboard I proposed is against an unknown meta.

The only real issue I could see against D&T is the "clock"...So just remember playing as fast as you can (and also ask your oppo to keep up a good speed)

greendragon

12-14-2015, 06:26 PM

There are quite a few good cards for Black that I don't see in anyone's posts. I realize Hatred is not everyone's cup of tea but I have learned to play the card and played correctly it can put a lot of pressure on your opponent to at any moment to just kill them. This is my current build.

Suicide Black/Hatred

6 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Bloodghast
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hatred

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Withered Wretch
SB: 4 Cursed Scroll
SB: 3 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Forsaken Wastes

Lands

Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Wasteland are all awesome lands. For the combo with Hexmage and Stage you can kill them on turn 3. How good is that? And they have to board stuff in to deal with it or main deck cards which handle at 20/20 Avatar. I realize Depths/Stage are expensive cards but there is no reason not to run them.

Dark Ritual – have heard talk about not running ritual. That’s bad in my opinion.

Creatures

Deathrite Shaman should be in almost every black deck. This card is not one most opponents can afford to leave on the table. Non-targeted life loss and graveyard destruction. And mana if you want it. How good is that? The mana aspect alone speeds up Suicide and is reason alone enough to run them.

Vampire Hexmage is possibly the best creature currently that black has now. It’s lethal combination with Dark Depths make it a must play. The first strike aspect is not bad as well. As a bonus it kills planeswalkers and removes counters from Chalice of the Void and other things. No one can afford to let this stay on the table long.

Hypnotic Specter is still a must counter. If they can’t it quickly becomes card advantage knocking out key cards. They can’t allow it to resolve. It is well worth the 3 mana.

Bloodsoaked Champion is probably the best one drop for now. It’s more or less immune to Chalice of the Void. It can attack die and come back with it’s ability. How good is that? It’s not stellar but it is a solid one drop if you want them. Ignores Counterbalance for the most part.

Disowned Ancestor may be worth considering. It has 4 toughness in a one drop and the counters you put on are permanent. How good is that?

Nantuko Shade is still amazing. And a lot of decks won’t allow this to resolve either as the damage they do is quick and effective. For two mana, you will be hard pressed to find a better two drop. Not running them at the moment but may change.

Geralf’s Messenger. Blacks 3 drops creatures are a bit weak. This guy shines in a lot of ways as he is immune to most decks damage removal. You can use him with Cabal Therapy. I like the life loss and they are immune to Liliana.

Bloodghast’s haste ability and Landfall make it an okay 2 drop. I like them because they get around Counterbalance which is annoying.

Mesmeric Fiend is bad but I like it in this deck for Hatred kill. If I can find something better that messes with my opponent’s hand as a creature I will run it. Also this is mostly vs. other nasty combo decks like mine. May drop this for Cabal Therapy. The reason I don’t run Therapy main is most times people sideboard Leyline of the Void against me making therapy kind of useless. You almost don’t need them at all.

Hatred is a style point really. I like them because they make games about to lose, games I could win. Umezawa’s Jitte works well in this slot too but can be stopped by Pithing Needle which many board in. That's my two cents.

greendragon

12-18-2015, 10:14 AM

MGB

12-18-2015, 10:48 AM

Mystical_Jackass

12-18-2015, 11:12 AM

Also working on this but I would not call it suicide. Concept is the similar. The two main decks you want graveyard hate for are Dredge and Land decks. Nic Fit and other decks I bring in 4 Forsaken Wastes. So if they get Griselbrand they can't gain life. Versus Lands Forsaken Wastes stops punishing fire from recycling and against Dredge you sacrifice Hexmage at the end of their draw step to get rid of their Bridge From Below. After that, they have to get rid of it. And if they target it with Abrupt Decay or anything they lose 5 life. Withering Wisps gets rid of tokens and the like and remember Dark Depths is Snow-covered.

Icy Depths

// Main:
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Dark Ritual
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Withering Wisps

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Cursed Scroll
SB: 4 Massacre
SB: 4 Forsaken Wastes
SB: 3 Liliana of the Veil

Honestly, I feel like your deck is like 3 different Mono Black concepts, but unfortunately they don't really synergize that well together: On one hand you're trying to Ritual out a Hippie and go aggro with jitte like some Sui deck, the other hand you're trying to drop an Arena/DRS/Pestillence adding more of control style, but then you sneak in Urborg/Depths/Hexmage/Stage like "sure... why the fuck not" with absolutely no tutors or Thoughtseize/Duress to protect it.

The problem is... lets say you're facing a deck that you really just need to go aggro and kill them before they kill you... *draw hand* well SHI* you're out of luck 'cause you drew an Urborg, Thesbian Stage, Swamp, DRS, Ritual, Gatekeeper, & Withering Wisps -- GL with that one! lol And vice-a-versa, you see my point? You're trying to add all these different elements but you have no control how they come up, ya know.

It would make sense using Withering Wisps in a MBC deck to clear the board, and have Bloodghasts or something as a finisher. Or if you want to go the MBC route with Dark Depths and Arena for draw, definitely throw in some tutors like Beseech the Queen to get your pieces and win as well. All in all, you're trying to do both and MAYBE all the stars line up one game: you ritual out a Hyppie, opponent has no counter or removal, you follow up with Hymn, they drop a bunch of weenies, you get that perfect follow up and drop Withering Wisps and laugh at him, etc. But problem is majority of the time you're gonna' lose to yourself by having a less structured deck. For instance, you have no removal & no Duress/Thoughtseize's so even as an aggro your suboptimal at that; and with Depths you lack the tutors like I mentioned, so you're suboptimal and pulling that off as well.

The logic of going... "I'm going to go Painter/Grindstone... but if that doesn't work I've also got Depths/Thesbian stage...and I'll throw in brainstorm/Delver/Daze 'cause that can sometimes just run away with the victory. That's the plan, at least one of them will work" doesn't work XD

James718

12-19-2015, 08:08 PM

Last night I played Ralf's list verbatim.

4 rounds cut to top 8

Round 1 vs Death and Taxes
Last time I played vs DnT it was disgustingly bad, today everything went in my favor. Game His vial met my abrupt decays, I had two deaths shadows in hand that I sandbagged for a while letting him take my life low. I go Dark Ritual into cruel bargain, dark ritual, malestrom pulse the batter skull, hymn, deaths shadow X 2 with them at 9/9 and scoops. Game 2 he opens with a dryad arbor. 1 gatekeepers, 2 swamp, bayou, dark ritual, hymn, lilli. are in my hand. He also mulled down to 6. I draw a dark ritual, i open with a bayou ->Ritual -> kicked gatekeeper. He sacks his dryad, he then decides to wasteland a bayou. I draw a dark ritual. Swamp, ritual, lilli discard go. next turn I hymn him and the saltyness begins. easy 2-0 I sideboarded out a 2 souls spikes, 1 thoughtseize, 1 cruel bargain, and brought in 2 lilli's and 2 needles.

Round 2 vs Infect
I dont remember much from this. Game one i won with a much confused look on my opponents face after cruel bargaining twice in a turn, swinging with a 11/11 death shadow and Soul spiking him for the win. I lost the next 2 games though. Each game came down to one turn and the ability of having blue to cantrip into the pump spells is huge. The only removal i drew was abrupt decays, and those are fine except when facing down Inkmoths. Game 3 ended with him playing a second Inkmoth the turn before I could ultimate lilli. I need to rethink my SB plans for infect.

Round 3 vs elves
This is a scary matchup because elves builds up a mass very fast, can avoid gatekeeper sacs, and can combo off out of thin air. Tanking your life total makes a craterhoof activation much easier for them to pull off with less creatures on board. I took one game an lost 2 in the typical way you lose to elves. Any advice here.

Round 4 vs B/W mentor?
Game one I hit him hard with discard. Gatekeepers helped him having to sac off mentors and Bobs. A turn with a large death's shadow and soul spike activation made this one quick. Game 2 he sideboards in lingering soles. I hit him hard with a hymn making him discard two mentors. I have a malestrom pulse in hand and let him play many souls into it. I pulsed them and then he scooped with a 12/12 deaths shadow and 2 gatekeepers on my side. Then the saltyness begins.

2-2 overall and I feel like I could have beaten infect.

Takeaways

1. I got more familiarized with the deck. Much better experience than last time.

2. Nothing is truer than there are no free wins with this deck. There are no oops i win moments.

3. People get mad/bitter when they lose to a "deck that isnt even real"

I do have a question though, what is the plan for playing against a burn deck?

Ralf

12-19-2015, 09:30 PM

Last night I played Ralf's list verbatim.

I do have a question though, what is the plan for playing against a burn deck?

Hello James,

Glad you have had some success !

Did you use the sideboard plan I have posted a page ago (mainly for elves and infect) ?

If you did, I would like your inputs (even if not !).

We have tested Elves quite a bit and the MU is around 45/55 postboard (with the suggested sideboard).
Infect was not tested a lot since none of my friends play it regularly.

I played 15 games preboard against Burn tonight but my opponent was not maindecking searing blaze.
I didn't lose a single one.
I was really afraid of this MU but as long as you play tight you must be able to take G1.
Here are a few tips:
- do not play any draw 4 before you reach <=4 life.
- any Soul spike you draw is almost GG. Watch out to always target the player if not he can kill his own creature to prevent you from gaining any life (Truth is I drew 1 Soul spike in each 15 games...without it you are most likely dead) .
- Always go for his biggest spells with TS (fireblast)
- Play your death's shadow when you are <= 9 life.

I'll update my sideboard tables in the days to come to provide some ideas against burn for G2 & G3.

Thanks for your report !

Keep rocking

greendragon

12-21-2015, 01:35 PM

Honestly, I feel like your deck is like 3 different Mono Black concepts, but unfortunately they don't really synergize that well together: On one hand you're trying to Ritual out a Hippie and go aggro with jitte like some Sui deck, the other hand you're trying to drop an Arena/DRS/Pestillence adding more of control style, but then you sneak in Urborg/Depths/Hexmage/Stage like "sure... why the fuck not" with absolutely no tutors or Thoughtseize/Duress to protect it.

The problem is... lets say you're facing a deck that you really just need to go aggro and kill them before they kill you... *draw hand* well SHI* you're out of luck 'cause you drew an Urborg, Thesbian Stage, Swamp, DRS, Ritual, Gatekeeper, & Withering Wisps -- GL with that one! lol And vice-a-versa, you see my point? You're trying to add all these different elements but you have no control how they come up, ya know.

It would make sense using Withering Wisps in a MBC deck to clear the board, and have Bloodghasts or something as a finisher. Or if you want to go the MBC route with Dark Depths and Arena for draw, definitely throw in some tutors like Beseech the Queen to get your pieces and win as well. All in all, you're trying to do both and MAYBE all the stars line up one game: you ritual out a Hyppie, opponent has no counter or removal, you follow up with Hymn, they drop a bunch of weenies, you get that perfect follow up and drop Withering Wisps and laugh at him, etc. But problem is majority of the time you're gonna' lose to yourself by having a less structured deck. For instance, you have no removal & no Duress/Thoughtseize's so even as an aggro your suboptimal at that; and with Depths you lack the tutors like I mentioned, so you're suboptimal and pulling that off as well.

The logic of going... "I'm going to go Painter/Grindstone... but if that doesn't work I've also got Depths/Thesbian stage...and I'll throw in brainstorm/Delver/Daze 'cause that can sometimes just run away with the victory. That's the plan, at least one of them will work" doesn't work XD

Agree. Have found this list to be lacking. However I do think the Depths/Hexmage/Stage has some merit as even though you have no real way to tutor for them, it really doesn't serve a black deck not to run those cards. Seeing as it's a pretty easy thing to do. Right now I'm working on a more aggressive combo build similar to hatred but with depths. Originally I had Thoughtseize in the above list which worked much better. But honestly I think Nighthawl and Gatekeeper are subpar cards at best. So I think 2 ways to win is fine.

I am not a fan of 3cc cards as legacy is so fast right now I don't think we can afford to run them unless they are stellar or we have no other options. Beseech is not really going to cut in a deck like this. Actually looking more at Diabolic Intent if anything. That's the best tutor right now.

Ralf

12-30-2015, 09:33 AM

Sideboard tables updated for Infect on page 101 after a lot of test.

MD updated as well:

Black Suicide by Ralf.

Mana
7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Bayou
3 Dark ritual

Kill conditions
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits

Removal
4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Draw spells
4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain

Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spinning darkness
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage

James718

12-31-2015, 08:52 AM

Sideboard tables updated for Infect on page 101 after a lot of test.

MD updated as well:

What were the changes?

Also, wouldn't it be better to run a 3/3 split of our draw spells for the marginal advantage of dodging meddling mages/extractrions?

Ralf

12-31-2015, 09:42 AM

What were the changes?

Also, wouldn't it be better to run a 3/3 split of our draw spells for the marginal advantage of dodging meddling mages/extractrions?

Abrupt decay stays in.
Liliana does not come in.
And a few other tweaks (HTT is meh for example, etc).

You can definitely run a 3/3 split of the draw 4.

I have replaced 1 Bayou MD by 1 Overgrown Tomb.
It helps getting out a shadow in many MU (even more post side) by T2/T3 when you don't lose life fast enough.

James718

12-31-2015, 10:21 AM

Abrupt decay stays in.
Liliana does not come in.
And a few other tweaks (HTT is meh for example, etc).

You can definitely run a 3/3 split of the draw 4.

I have replaced 2 Bayou MD for 2 Overgrown Tomb.
It helps getting out a shadow in many MU (even more post side) by T2/T3 when you don't lose life fast enough.

You took out HTT? It still shows that is in. I love the hymn, its not consistent but sometimes it nails everything you need.
Oh I never saw your list when you MD a Lilli.

I like the overgrown tomb idea. Many times I have sat with an uncastable death's shadow, I will try that?

Ralf

12-31-2015, 02:16 PM

You took out HTT? It still shows that is in. I love the hymn, its not consistent but sometimes it nails everything you need.
Oh I never saw your list when you MD a Lilli.

I like the overgrown tomb idea. Many times I have sat with an uncastable death's shadow, I will try that?

Only 2 HTT post side instead of the full playset.
I thought infect was a combo deck but it turns out it is an aggro deck before being a combo deck.
If there is no creature in play to pump, you are winning :-)

greendragon

01-15-2016, 12:06 PM

Master of the Feast and Phyrexian Negator are worth playing in certain decks as a 3 of. You never really want 2 Negator or 2 Master in play at any given time.

I am liking Tainted Pact. Black really does not have any cards like Brainstorm or Ponder and the Tutors are kind of weak. After some practice, it is playable. Typically you don't want to go beyond 4 cards and you don't want anymore of 4 of any card in your deck for obvious reasons. Hatred is just my play style. At times, my opponent's hand destroyed or they mulligan to a weak hand. I plan to kill them when that happens.

As you can see the board is mostly for other aggressive or creature based decks. The main deck is designed to beat combo and the like. Sickening Dreams for token decks. Dread for Death and Taxes. I did test Engineered Plague it seems too slow for what it does in the current format. Scroll is for people that side in Ensnaring Bridge against us.

Master of the Feast is okay especially if you Ritual him out. Typically they will use removal on your Deathrite Shaman, Vampire Hexmage or Hypnotic Specter. After they do it is usally safe to play Negator or Master.

What I like most is you can actually win against burn if you get the depths combo. Typically black loses to burn.

Suicide Black

// Lands
4 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [CS] Dark Depths
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [M15] Swamp
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
1 [KTK] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [C14] Vampire Hexmage
4 [M10] Hypnotic Specter
3 [UD] Phyrexian Negator

// Spells
3 [JOU] Master of the Feast
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [THS] Thoughtseize
4 [OD] Tainted Pact
4 [V13] Hymn to Tourach
3 [EX] Hatred

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [6E] Dread of Night
SB: 4 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 3 [TO] Sickening Dreams
SB: 2 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 [6E] Perish

sigmanugary

01-16-2016, 12:23 PM

GreenDragon, I like your list! I'm trying to build a similar version albeit mono-black. Do you ever have issues finding DD? What do you think about Expedition Map?

greendragon

01-19-2016, 10:43 AM

To answer your question I don't think Suicide Black can use cards like Expedition Map. My thinking is what cantrips colors have to offer now. This is why I think cards like Tainted Pact are good for us. It allows us to view several cards and pick the most devastating one. I often use it to find Hymn. Sometimes I hit another Tainted Pact which I like because it allows me to go deeper in my deck. But what I like most about the deck is you don't "need" Dark Depths to win and there will be games if you only run Tainted Pact that you will not find it. So to make Dark Depths a bit easier to find I added Beseech the Queen. While I am still testing it. Beseech the Queen usually allows me to get Hexmage, Depths or Thespian's Stage and allows me to play 3 Depths instead of 4. I can use it to get Ritual if I have Hatred in hand. Also, I added white primarily for Tidehollow Sculler. It is well worth it to play that over Thoughtseize. I also added a 4 Master because I find he is the very last creature my opponents see before they die. Few decks can handle a 5/5 black flyer. The result is a very brutal Suicide Black deck. But like I said 6 ways to find cards in your deck is pretty damn good considering. Often, people's only answer to Marit Lage is Swords to Plowshares giving you 20 life. After that, you have more than enough life usually to cast Hatred. The deck has 3 ways to win Depths, Hatred or Master.

Hatred 2016

// Lands
4 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [CS] Dark Depths
3 [R] Scrubland
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [M15] Swamp
1 [KTK] Plains

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [C14] Vampire Hexmage
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [M10] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [JOU] Master of the Feast
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [OD] Tainted Pact
4 [V13] Hymn to Tourach
3 [EX] Hatred
2 [SHM] Beseech the Queen

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [V13] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 2 [TO] Sickening Dreams
SB: 2 [MI] Forsaken Wastes
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 1 [WL] Spinning Darkness

In regards to Master of the Feast's drawing cards for your opponent it is seldom that it works against me. The worst is when they have Maze of Ith and I can't find a Wasteland or they have Life of the Loam to bring it back. I may add graveyard hate but I find doing so deludes the forcefulness of the deck. Main deck is very aggressive so the sideboard needs to add to that, not take away. After testing Beseech I have to say I'm not really a fan. I think it's okay to play 1 but more than that. I wouldn't and I'm adding back the 4th Dark Depths.

Jo11ygrnreefer

01-19-2016, 02:18 PM

A refresh primer, a little outdated, but a good refresh read to help inspire some deck design.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=11797.0

James718

01-25-2016, 09:43 PM

Has anyone tried Gitaxian Probe in the build? It seems like a great free way to take your life lower while it replaces itself.

Ralf

01-26-2016, 04:43 AM

Has anyone tried Gitaxian Probe in the build? It seems like a great free way to take your life lower while it replaces itself.

Hello James,

We have tried Gitaxian Probe.

The card is nice, no wonder.
But the problem is that we have no way to cast it for U, and sometimes you cannot play it because you cannot lose life anymore.
Also this is not a black card and thus it doesn't pitch for Soul Spike.

James718

01-26-2016, 07:03 AM

Hello James,

We have tried Gitaxian Probe.

The card is nice, no wonder.
But the problem is that we have no way to cast it for U, and sometimes you cannot play it because you cannot lose life anymore.
Also this is not a black card and thus it doesn't pitch for Soul Spike.

The only way to cast it is with a death rite activation.

Lately I have noticed myself is situations with uncastable deathshadows. A lot of the time it's because of an early soulspike activation, or them STP something. With a probe and a god hand turn one you can go fetch (-1), catacombs untapped (-2), thoughtseize (-2), probe (-2). and we're at 13 turn 1!

I guess not pitching to soulspike is an issue as well as what would get cut for it.

Ralf

01-26-2016, 07:16 AM

The only way to cast it is with a death rite activation.

Lately I have noticed myself is situations with uncastable deathshadows. A lot of the time it's because of an early soulspike activation, or them STP something. With a probe and a god hand turn one you can go fetch (-1), catacombs untapped (-2), thoughtseize (-2), probe (-2). and we're at 13 turn 1!

I guess not pitching to soulspike is an issue as well as what would get cut for it.

Yes, definitely and that is why we are "only" playing 3 shadows to avoid having 2 of them in a lot of opening hand (even if it happens but you should probably have mulliganed this hand anyway).

Note also that with 6 draw spells you should be able to play around such hindrance.

At last, those corner cases should only be relevant against combo / control decks that are not threatening your life total; those decks tend to be addressed in G2 & G3 where you have access to a bit more velocity through more lifeloss (Surgical Extraction).

Remember that the deck wants to:
1) First, take control of the game (hand and board wise)
2) Then, kill your opponent

We are not an "all in" kind of deck. It happens sometimes but this rather the exception than the rule.

James718

01-26-2016, 10:34 AM

Yes, definitely and that is why we are "only" playing 3 shadows to avoid having 2 of them in a lot of opening hand (even if it happens but you should probably have mulliganed this hand anyway).

Note also that with 6 draw spells you should be able to play around such hindrance.

At last, those corner cases should only be relevant against combo / control decks that are not threatening your life total; those decks tend to be addressed in G2 & G3 where you have access to a bit more velocity through more lifeloss (Surgical Extraction).

Remember that the deck wants to:
1) First, take control of the game (hand and board wise)
2) Then, kill your opponent

We are not an "all in" kind of deck. It happens sometimes but this rather the exception than the rule.

Thanks for the explanation.

On a side note has anything from Oath seem like a good fit in the deck? Warping Weil?

Ralf

01-26-2016, 10:40 AM

Thanks for the explanation.

On a side note has anything from Oath seem like a good fit in the deck? Warping Weil?

Actually, the only "on-going" debate is about the 2nd Spinning Darkness in the sideboard.

I haven't figured out any replacement card for it yet; but well, if anyone has some good idea, don't hesitate to chime in !

I'm afraid OGW has not brought us any playable cards as it stands out but who knows ?

Warping Wail is a great thing but we won't be able to include it in our list unless we change the whole mana base.

maharis

01-26-2016, 10:40 AM

If you are looking to maximize Death's Shadow I suggest incorporating a Street Wraith/Reanimate engine. I have been playing a B/R suicide deck that has been surprisingly explosive... you could probably easily tweak to mono-B or your splash of choice.

4 Death's Shadow
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Murderous Cut
2 Reanimate
2 Fire Covenant
2 Chain Lightning
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Mishra's Bauble

4 Badlands
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Barren Moor

4 Dark Confidant
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Gloom
2 Smash to Smithereens

Ralf

01-26-2016, 10:52 AM

If you are looking to maximize Death's Shadow I suggest incorporating a Street Wraith/Reanimate engine. I have been playing a B/R suicide deck that has been surprisingly explosive... you could probably easily tweak to mono-B or your splash of choice.

Hello Maharis,

The list you have provided is on the same track as "Death's proof" (UB Death's shadow) iteration.
This deck is really nice but it is trying to accomplish something different.

Our core is about Infernal Contract/Cruel bargain + Soul Spike.
Shadows were just a nice addition...or something one could call a collateral damage :cool:

UB Death's shadow

4 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Dismember
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bayou

James718

01-26-2016, 01:20 PM

Hello Maharis,

The list you have provided is on the same track as "Death's proof" (UB Death's shadow) iteration.
This deck is really nice but it is trying to accomplish something different.

Our core is about Infernal Contract/Cruel bargain + Soul Spike.
Shadows were just a nice addition...or something one could call a collateral damage :cool:

UB Death's shadow

4 Death's Shadow
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Street Wraith
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Dismember
4 Force of Will

4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Snuff Out
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Massacre
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Bayou

How do you compare the playstyle of the Your Suicide Black vs the UB?

Ralf

01-26-2016, 01:35 PM

How do you compare the playstyle of the Your Suicide Black vs the UB?

UB Shadow is a real tempo deck with an "all-in" strategy.

My deck is a midrange/control deck.

James718

01-31-2016, 06:28 PM

Ralf

02-01-2016, 04:06 AM

This past friday i ran the deck again,

The overgrown tombs are an awesome addition. I did poorly mostly do to mulliganing way too much.

The biggest thing I need to work on is the infect matchup. Them giving me life is a pseudo removal for the death's shadow. The major issue is dealing with the Inkmoth nexus. Its next to impossible to remove. Any suggestions for the infect matchup.

Also, what matches does empty the pits need to stay in and which does it need to come out. I find myself always cutting it going into game 2.

Have you thought of using toxic deluge in this deck?

You have all the sideboard strategies here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3451-Deck-Suicide-Black&p=915886&viewfull=1#post915886) including Infect + an analysis on "Empty the Pits".

The Infect MU is slightly positive from our testing.

Toxic Deluge has been properly tested. Unfortunately, Engineered plague is better than Toxic in more MU.
The only MU where Toxic is better than Plague is against deck playing Sigarda.

For now, we are testing "Reanimate" instead of the 2nd Spinning Darkness in the sideboard.

Xod

02-01-2016, 05:17 AM

Reanimate combining with Street Wraith like the UB build?

Ralf

02-01-2016, 05:26 AM

Reanimate combining with Street Wraith like the UB build?

No !
We don't play Street Wraith.

Spinning Darkness is meant to improve aggro & tempo MU. Reanimate should mostly provide the same improvment (a bit less against delver deck) with an added bonus against midrange and some combo decks.

James718

02-04-2016, 12:32 PM

So reanimate one of their creatures?

Just curious, have you ever tested Ob Nixilis reignited, or Erebos, god of the dead?

Ralf

02-04-2016, 01:03 PM

So reanimate one of their creatures?

Just curious, have you ever tested Ob Nixilis reignited, or Erebos, god of the dead?

@Reanimate: It can be seen as threat n°13 (11 creatures + Empty + Reanimate). It will help closing games a bit faster against midrange/attrition war. Reanimating any creatures (Goyf, Death's shadow) is pretty cool. It has some broken synergy in a deck playing discard spells.

However, Tempo MU will be a bit harder as Spinning Darkness is "King" when it comes to dealing with Delver deck. Reanimate is not bad against Tempo deck, either but usually you are in the control seat not the contrary. I'm still assessing, right now, if we can really cut the 2nd Spinning Darkness or not.

@ Fancy things:

No.

To be honest, with 19 lands (4 DRS & 3 Dark Ritual) the deck cannot reliably sustain more than 1 big spell (spell> 3 CMC).

Empty the Pits fits perfectly the bill, because it usually ends the game "on the spot" and I have not found anything as powerful as this spell.
The only spell as much broken as this one is not playable in this deck: Hatred.

Anyway, I can see the appeal for sexy things but as a 1-of, you will hardly see it.

Now if you really want to try something as a 2-of, I would cut "1 Empty the Pits + 1 Dismember":

1) Erebos doesn't impact the board "at all" and its ability is "weak".

2) Ob Nixilis is almost legacy playable. And I like him a lot in my Walker Fit deck. But unfortunately, he is really slow and 5 CMC is pushing really hard.
At least his -3 impacts the board.
You might also want to look at/test Vraska. Her +1 is far worse but she can kill any non land permanent (Jace) and she can use her ultimate a turn sooner. But to my taste her ulty is worse than Ob Nixilis.

3) If you really want to go "crazy", the PW I would also try is Sorin Markov.

Keep us posted as far as your tests go !

MGB

02-04-2016, 02:30 PM

Is there still a place in Legacy for 4 x Nantuko Shades? :)

James718

02-04-2016, 02:33 PM

1) Erebos doesn't impact the board "at all" and its ability is "weak".

2) Ob Nixilis is almost legacy playable. And I like him a lot in my Walker Fit deck. But unfortunately, he is really slow and 5 CMC is pushing really hard.
At least his -3 impacts the board.
You might also want to look at/test Vraska. Her +1 is far worse but she can kill any non land permanent (Jace) and she can use her ultimate a turn sooner. But to my taste her ulty is worse than Ob Nixilis.

3) If you really want to go "crazy", the PW I would also try is Sorin Markov.

I can see that on erebos

I tried Ob Nix, and kinda liked him, I like that he lets us sink life for cards and can immediately kill something. Although it doesnt solve the problem of killing an Inkmoth nexus :( However if you ult him and contract thats 8 damage to them!

Vraska seems harder to hit mana wise and still doesnt help with inkmoths, however being able to kill a planes walker or a counterbalance is sweet.

Sorin seems cool, he can change the clock real quick, but his plus hurts us and his ult cant win us the game.

Ralf

05-10-2016, 10:34 AM

As someone asked, here is my latest list:

Black Suicide / Infernal Shadow by Ralf.

Mana

7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
2 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Dark ritual

Kill conditions

4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits

Removal

4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Disruption

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Draw spells

4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain

Sideboard

3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spinning darkness
1 Reanimate
1 Sylvan Library
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage

Updated sideboard tables + bonuses can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3451-Deck-Suicide-Black&p=915886&viewfull=1#post915886) including Infect + an analysis on "Empty the Pits".

If you have any questions, feel free to shoot.

Cheers,

Ralf.

Xod

05-11-2016, 01:58 AM

I see you reverted back to 2 bayou and 1 Overgrown Tomb instead of the other way around. 2 Tombs is nice, but with variable costs on dismember and such, you mostly can play with your life total without risking to much against an aggro/Tempo deck.

(your bayou gets wasted and you need to fetch another B/G land for instant use and you only have Tombs left against a fast damaging deck is not very handy)

Other than that I don't see much I would change myself. I'm planning to take it for another spin since I'm back in to the 'controlling' decks. And this one still acts a controlling when you need to, or aggro when against control or combo. Currently playing Quinn and still deciding what I'm going to take to the GP in Prague. Might also be Oozing :-)

Yes I know, I play weird decks ;-)

Ralf

05-11-2016, 05:19 AM

I see you reverted back to 2 bayou and 1 Overgrown Tomb instead of the other way around. 2 Tombs is nice, but with variable costs on dismember and such, you mostly can play with your life total without risking to much against an aggro/Tempo deck.

(your bayou gets wasted and you need to fetch another B/G land for instant use and you only have Tombs left against a fast damaging deck is not very handy)

Yes, after many tests (and due to a decrease of combo decks in the overall meta) I reverted back to just 1 overgrown tomb.

Other than that I don't see much I would change myself. I'm planning to take it for another spin since I'm back in to the 'controlling' decks. And this one still acts a controlling when you need to, or aggro when against control or combo. Currently playing Quinn and still deciding what I'm going to take to the GP in Prague. Might also be Oozing :-)

Yes I know, I play weird decks ;-)

Welcome to the "Club" !

mistercakes

05-11-2016, 05:04 PM

surprised to see this list. looks very fun. any other good ways to mitigate the life loss?

Ralf

05-11-2016, 05:21 PM

surprised to see this list. looks very fun. any other good ways to mitigate the life loss?

Yes, it is really fun and surprisingly competitive enough (in the current meta).

What do you mean by "other good ways to mitigate the life loss" ?

mistercakes

05-11-2016, 09:05 PM

i guess it was a bit rushed of a question.

what would you say are the favorable and unfavorable matchups (preboard)?

also, your thoughts on a singleton lake of the dead?

Xod

05-12-2016, 04:01 AM

I never found lake of the dead a good card, and especially not in this deck.

First of all, or mana base is not so big, so it needs to be steady. Saccing one of our lands and then getting lake wasted is according to me a serious setback.

Second, sure, it provides a big boost, at the cost of at least a second swamp, so actually what it gives you is at turn 3, 4 extra mana, assuming you tapped the swamps before saccing them, you then have 6 mana. If you look at the cards we play, you'll notice we don't need THAT much mana. The only mana we need is in the beginning of our first/second turn to get a nice boost. Let's analyse the cards where we need the mana for:

HTT: Lake of the Dead won't help
Gatekeeper: it can help, but so can dropping a land each turn or DRS
Empty the Pits: now this is the only card where Lake can help, but we also side this card out in certain matchup's, so I don't think it will help that much.
Soul Spike: to hardcast it, sure.
D4 spells: DRS and DR will help casting these sooner then Lake, the only advance I see here is casting the cards you drew from the spells with lake. But at that moment you just lost 2 swamps.

So I guess it's not really a good card (in this deck).

Ralf

05-12-2016, 04:46 AM

i guess it was a bit rushed of a question.

what would you say are the favorable and unfavorable matchups (preboard)?

also, your thoughts on a singleton lake of the dead?

1) Matchups

It is difficult to give some raw numbers (preboard). But if you take into account any game with sideboard:

- Tempo (without reach) = favorable
- Tempo with reach = 50/50
- Aggro & Tribal deck = lightly favorable (50/50 vs infect)
- Miracle = lightly unfavorable
- Monastery Miracle = lightly favorable
- Eldrazi = lightly favorable
- Shardless = 50/50
- Jund = 50/50
- Lands = Unfavorable
- D&T = lightly favorable
- Storm = lightly unfavorable
- S&T = lightly favorable
- Burn = lightly unfavorable

That should give you a good idea where the deck lies against the current format.

The hardest part with the deck (something that few people are used to) is to play with your life as another "ressource".
Once you get a good grip on it, you'll start to put up some results.

2) Lake of the Dead

I have played with 1 in the past. It is sometimes great and sometimes poor.
But when you are not playing BS, you seek consistency.
You cannot really afford to mulligan an otherwise good starting hand because of "lake" and that was the major point.

Anyway, if you are interested in giving the deck a few tries, be my guest.
10 to 20 games should be a minimum, though.

And if you do, please come back and share your feelings & ideas with us.

Cheers,

Ralf

mistercakes

05-12-2016, 12:29 PM

Ralf

05-12-2016, 05:07 PM

before testing (will be a few days before i can sit with modo or wait for paper cards to come in mail (ordered some bargains, i have a few from doomsday but not a playset).

what are your thoughts on the kamigawa land that can turn into a 5/5 (taps for black but also pings you)

volrath's stronghold (maybe regulated to sb for grindy matchups)?

kaervek's spite because it's awesome?

By essence, the deck I proposed is a control deck.
Even if, you'll have some very fast aggro start sometimes, it will rather be the exception than the rule.

Once that is said:
- I would not play the kamigawa land. Losing all your lands for a 5/5 is not where you wanna be.
- Volrath's stronghold is to be classified as Lake of the Dead
- Kaervek's spite = you made my day !!! But well...no :)

Anyway, you can tweak the list as you like but I would stick with the one proposed (at least for the first games) since we have put a lot of tests behind it.

mistercakes

05-12-2016, 07:19 PM

By essence, the deck I proposed is a control deck.
Even if, you'll have some very fast aggro start sometimes, it will rather be the exception than the rule.

Once that is said:
- I would not play the kamigawa land. Losing all your lands for a 5/5 is not where you wanna be.
- Volrath's stronghold is to be classified as Lake of the Dead
- Kaervek's spite = you made my day !!! But well...no :)

Anyway, you can tweak the list as you like but I would stick with the one proposed (at least for the first games) since we have put a lot of tests behind it.

okay! thanks for input

traveling and not playing...

thoughts on cursed scroll, winter orb, storage matrix?

also - built the deck on modo. i dont have an empty the pits (have everything else) given the really high amount of storm on modo i'm just going to run a lich instead. i've always wanted to use that card and it seems like it could be great here in some small situations.

Xod

05-13-2016, 02:07 AM

I saw Kaervek's Spite and I was thinking immediately about Withering Boon.

The lifeloss we don't care about that much, only problem it that it only counters creature spells. And we already handle creatures quite good.

Xod

05-14-2016, 10:40 AM

Ralf,

Your sideboard plan against Eldrazi looks very solid. Can't wait to test it. Probably next Friday and maybe to the GP in Prague.

Xod

05-19-2016, 10:21 AM

Ralf,

Except the matchup against Lands (I will provide a sideboard list) I'm missing the sideboard for Grixis Delver and Aggro Loam. Grixis is back growing and Aggro Loam never dissappeared from the scene here.

Any specific suggestions?

Tomorrow I will play the deck again.

Ralf

05-19-2016, 10:41 AM

mistercakes

05-19-2016, 10:53 AM

i'm gonna bring the deck with me tonight. i'll let ya know how it goes.

raif: i am curious to know how much you've tested 1-2 sensei's divining tops in the deck. you have 9 fetches, and you can go through the deck pretty quick. thoughts?

Ralf

05-19-2016, 11:17 AM

Here they are:

Aggro Loam

3 Surgical extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reanimate
1 Golgari Charm

-2 Soul Spike
-1 Dark Ritual
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain

Grixis Delver

2 Liliana
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Library
1 Reanimate

-1 Empty the Pits
-2 Soul Spike
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Infernal Contract
-1 Cruel Bargain

Obviously all the sideboard tables I'm giving are good ideas and anyone should adapt accordingly to what you have seen during G1...

mistercakes

05-21-2016, 02:33 AM

played a league. card for card with your list.

4 color delver (2-1)
eldrazi (2-1)
storm (0-2)
GB post titan (2-1)
miracles (0-2)

Ralf

05-21-2016, 05:12 AM

played a league. card for card with your list.

4 color delver (2-1)
eldrazi (2-1)
storm (0-2)
GB post titan (2-1)
miracles (0-2)

I have yet to lose against storm but well against god hands there is nothing we could do.
Miracle is a technical one and require preparation (mostly testing).

Can we have a more detailed report when you have time?

Anyway how is your overall impression about the deck ?

mistercakes

05-21-2016, 12:28 PM

I could have lost to storm due to mulligan decisions. I did have him at game 2 where he had to blind hit a kill spell with a ponder (no other blue mana)

deck is really fun so far and I'm seeing the importance of your choices.

will put in a lot more games before changing anything.

update here: 3 leagues now, all have been 3-2 so far. enjoyable, and free.

4 color delver (2-1)
eldrazi (2-1)
storm (0-2)
GB post titan (2-1)
miracles (0-2)

UR delver (1-2)
NO elves (0-2)
UW stoneblade (2-1)
GB post titan (2-1)
storm (2-0)

sneak and show (2-1 i cut additionally 1 gatekeeper +1 null rod for sb because he had 4 petals and 2 top)
shardless (0-2)
storm (0-2...probably should have mulled game 2. game 1 i kept a solid hand vs non combo and just got a bad matchup for that hand)
infect (2-1)
merfolk (2-1)

Ralf

05-23-2016, 10:02 AM

mistercakes

05-23-2016, 12:42 PM

thanks, i've been playing about 20 years now and have played most archetypes so i can pick up new decks quickly.

i went 3-2 again, although one of the losses were to julian23 and i think i was going to win game 2 (he had won game 1)....unfortunately spinning darkness is sometimes bugged and you can't cast it via alternate cost SOMETIMES. i still could have lost game 3 though as we never had the chance. they did reimburse me for the league. so 80 + 80 player points is fine, but i didn't get a pack!

i'll have to look on magic online later to see what my other matchups were. pretty sure my other loss was to red blue delver but will confirm tonight.

i've been adhering to your sideboarding suggestions for the most part, although i think i'd maybe want to squeeze another maelstrom pulse in there. it's been very good every time i've drawn it.

-Rob

Ralf

05-23-2016, 01:23 PM

Here are a few comments:

1) Any deck with reach is *tough*. But I think U/R Delver is not the worse.

If you often fight red decks, I suggest you cut the "reanimate" spell for another Spinning Darkness (and revert back to the initial list).
Reanimate was the last change I made to get another small % against some combo and midrange decks (this also had the effect to increase the threat count which is clock friendly but maybe not needed).

2) Elves should be 50/50 (postboard included).

We cannot really expect to win G1 but G2 & G3 should be better.
Nonetheless, the provided sideboard is a theorical one, though, as I hardly tested this particular MU (only a few games) and, from my experience, it takes approximatively 50 games (postboard) to properly assess which card goes in & out.
- Especially the fact that I am keeping 4 TS and only 2 HTT and cutting the whole 4 spikes.
- We might also try to keep the Empty the Pits as each time I resolved it, I won the game (even if a 4+ CMC spell seems so awkward against a combo deck).
- At last, including surgical extraction (against Elves/Chaos Elves) might be a bad idea.

As I said against combo decks, I tend to resolve a quick DS via a lot of lifeloss spells but it might be wrong.

Definitely, this MU requires more tests and more feedbacks so that we could come up with a practical & theorical "expertise".

3) Maelstrom Pulse n°2

I dunno what to think about MP n°2.
Don't get me wrong the card is bonker when it provides value. But, well 3 mana is a lot.
At the origin, it was to deal with any non land permanent that are not dealt with Decay (especially Jace) as a 1-of (a catch-all).

Cheers,

Ralf