How Humility Works

[dorsch]

As long as Humility remains on the battlefield, Preacher has no abilities. So you can not tap it to gain control of another creature and you have to untap it during your untap step which causes you losing control of any creature you stole before.
But you keep any creatures you took under your control before humility entered the battlefield. (untill you are forced to untap)

[EssKay]

Just noticed this in the Comprehensive Rules:


700.4a Although the text “[This permanent] is indestructible” is an ability, actually being indestructible is neither an ability nor a characteristic. It’s just something that’s true about a permanent.

Does that mean that indestructible creatures remain indestructible under Humility?

[heroicraptor]

Just noticed this in the Comprehensive Rules:



Does that mean that indestructible creatures remain indestructible under Humility?

Nope. It means when something else makes the permanent indestructible under Humility, say Elspeth's ultimate, it will stay indestructible.

[Muradin]

I play Show and Tell and put a Woodfall Primus into play while my opponent brings a Humility with the same Show and Tell. May I destroy it?

[heroicraptor]

The cards are put onto the battlefield simultaneously, so there's no point at which Woodfall Primus is on the battlefield and Humility is not, therefore leaving no time in which Primus could trigger.

[Master Shake]

Half the judges in Columbus had no idea what the hell to do when I called them to say, "Can you explain to my opponent why Mishra's Factory is a 2/2 under Humility"

I thought that knowing how Humility interacts was stage one of being a Judge.

[Tammit67]

Half the judges in Columbus had no idea what the hell to do when I called them to say, "Can you explain to my opponent why Mishra's Factory is a 2/2 under Humility"

I thought that knowing how Humility interacts was stage one of being a Judge.

It really should be, especially if you expect to be at the Legacy Grand Prix.

[spiderfreak]

If I have Humility and Cumber Stone (Creatures your opponents control get -1/-0.) in play, what happens?

[heroicraptor]

Humility's "make all creatures 1/1" applies in layer 7b (613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.) and Cumber Stone applies in layer 7c (613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.).

So, your creatures will be 1/1s, and your opponents' creatures will be 0/1s.

[spiderfreak]

Humility's "make all creatures 1/1" applies in layer 7b (613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.) and Cumber Stone applies in layer 7c (613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.).

So, your creatures will be 1/1s, and your opponents' creatures will be 0/1s.

Thank you.
I was thinking that but did not know.

[GGoober]

This is a question that keeps popping up in my match against hypergenesis because I always draw my singleton Humility when he cascades Hypergenesis:

(Hypergenesis is green.

Suspend 3-{1}{G}{G} (Rather than cast this card from your hand, pay {1}{G}{G} and exile it with three time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter. When the last is removed, cast it without paying its mana cost.)

Starting with you, each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. Repeat this process until no one puts a card onto the battlefield.)

Relevant rulings for hypergenesis for this question:
10/15/2006: Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put onto the battlefield and resolution is complete. The player whose turn it is will put all of his or her triggered abilities on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order will do the same. (The last ability put on the stack will be the first one that resolves.)



Show and Tell + Humility + Terrastadon would work in the following way I believe:
Each player puts Humility/Terrastadon simultaneously into play, therefore Terrastadon loses its CiP ability.

However, with Hypergenesis instead of Show and Tell, which says that starting from the active player and followed by the other player, you put things into play in an order (rather than simultaenously), my question is would Terrastadon be able to destroy Humility when:

Player A plays Hypergensis and starts off putting Terrastadon.
Player B puts in Humility.

If I am correct, the following occurs:
- Hypergensis is put on a stack and the sequence follows: Player A puts Terrastadon in play, Player B puts Humility in play in that order.
- Hypergenesis now resolves and all these objects are put into play in the order above.
- Terrastadon comes into play, but Humility isn't in play yet, so it can't blow it up.

Or does it go:
- Terrastadon comes into play
- Terrastadon's trigger on stack
- Humility comes into play
- Terrastadon trigger resolves hitting Humility.

If Player A puts Progenitus, Player B puts Humility, and Player A puts Terrastadon, then Player A still should not be able to destroy humility right? because:
- Progenitus comes into play
- Humility comes into play
- Terrastadon comes into play losing its CiP ability.

[GGoober]

Double posting because this is relevant to the first post: Basically the situation above may boil down to this scenario:

Player A: Casts Terrastadon trigger on stack (no targets chosen)
Player B: Casts Humility at instant speed (say with blue Leyline)

Therefore, the orders are:
Terrastadon in play.
Terrastadon trigger on stack.
Humility in play.
Terrastadon trigger resolves/doesn't resolve.

Can Player A still hit Humility? Does the Hypergenesis + Terrastadon + Humility issue boil down to this scenario?

[cdr]

Show and Tell + Humility + Terrastadon would work in the following way I believe:
Each player puts Humility/Terrastadon simultaneously into play, therefore Terrastadon loses its CiP ability.

However, with Hypergenesis instead of Show and Tell, which says that starting from the active player and followed by the other player, you put things into play in an order (rather than simultaenously), my question is would Terrastadon be able to destroy Humility when:

Player A plays Hypergensis and starts off putting Terrastadon.
Player B puts in Humility.

If I am correct, the following occurs:
- Hypergensis is put on a stack and the sequence follows: Player A puts Terrastadon in play, Player B puts Humility in play in that order.
- Hypergenesis now resolves and all these objects are put into play in the order above.
- Terrastadon comes into play, but Humility isn't in play yet, so it can't blow it up.

Or does it go:
- Terrastadon comes into play
- Terrastadon's trigger on stack
- Humility comes into play
- Terrastadon trigger resolves hitting Humility.

If Player A puts Progenitus, Player B puts Humility, and Player A puts Terrastadon, then Player A still should not be able to destroy humility right? because:
- Progenitus comes into play
- Humility comes into play
- Terrastadon comes into play losing its CiP ability.

You quoted an explanation of the right rule (there are no rulings, only rules, despite what Gatherer still calls them), but you are not correct.

Hypergenesis
Sorcery
Hypergenesis is green.
Suspend 3--1GG
Starting with you, each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. Repeat this process until no one puts a card onto the battlefield.

Read Hypergenesis - each permanent comes into play as it is chosen. Permanents with ETB triggers will trigger, but triggers aren't put onto the stack until someone would get priority. No one gets priority while a spell is resolving.

If you put Terastadon into play and then your opponent puts Humility into play, when Hypergensis is done resolving Terastadon's ability will be put on the stack and you choose targets for it, which can include Humility.

If your opponent puts Humility into play and then you put Terastadon into play, Terastadon won't trigger since it has no abilities.


Double posting because this is relevant to the first post: Basically the situation above may boil down to this scenario:

Player A: Casts Terrastadon trigger on stack (no targets chosen)
Player B: Casts Humility at instant speed (say with blue Leyline)

Therefore, the orders are:
Terrastadon in play.
Terrastadon trigger on stack.
Humility in play.
Terrastadon trigger resolves/doesn't resolve.

Can Player A still hit Humility? Does the Hypergenesis + Terrastadon + Humility issue boil down to this scenario?

If Terastadon's trigger has triggered, it's triggered - removing abilities from Terastadon doesn't change anything.

This example is not a very good analogue of Hypergensis, since in this example people are getting priority so the trigger is both triggering and going on the stack.

[GGoober]

I got you thanks cdr but a little last confusion, using your answer and that priority is not passed until a spell is resolving. If you said:


If you put Terastadon into play and then your opponent puts Humility into play, when Hypergensis is done resolving Terastadon's ability will be put on the stack and you choose targets for it, which can include Humility.

But if it's mentioned in this way, it sounds as if the abilities are put on the stack after the spell is resolved, and Terastadon's ability on the stack can target Humility (which is in play). Then why would the next situation not work?


If your opponent puts Humility into play and then you put Terastadon into play, Terastadon won't trigger since it has no abilities.


Since given the same argument, abilities are put on the stack after the spell is resolved.

In BOTH situations, it seems that the abilities are put on the stack AFTER spell is resolved AND BOTH Humility and Terrastadon are in play. It seems that it's still the order on whether Terrastadon/Humility came first that changes the outcome. But if abilities are put on the stack AFTER spell is resolved, it shouldn't matter whichever came into play first since regardless of the situation, the ability is still put on the stack upon resolution of the spell.

Just a little lost on this one, but otherwise it makes sense to me.

[cdr]

Again, there are two parts to it - the ability triggering, and the ability being put on the stack. They are not the same thing.

An ability will trigger when its condition is met (like something entering the battlefield). That trigger now exists, but waits to be put on the stack until the next time someone gets priority.

If Terastadon enters the battlefield first, Terastadon's ability has already triggered, so the Humility is irrelevant. If Humility enters the battlefield first, Terastadon has no abilities when it enters the battlefield.

[Jason]

I just want to verify the interaction with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114283&stc=1&d=1295333654:
If I -1 Tezzeret on an artifact, it will be a 5/5. Then, if Humility enters the battlefield, it will be a 1/1 (with no abilities obviously).
HOWEVER, If Humility is on the battlefield and then Tezzeret's -1 is applied, the creature will be a 5/5 (still with no abilities, obviously).
This is one of those setting P/T based on time stamp situations, Correct?

[cdr]

I just want to verify the interaction with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=114283&stc=1&d=1295333654:
If I -1 Tezzeret on an artifact, it will be a 5/5. Then, if Humility enters the battlefield, it will be a 1/1 (with no abilities obviously).
HOWEVER, If Humility is on the battlefield and then Tezzeret's -1 is applied, the creature will be a 5/5 (still with no abilities, obviously).
This is one of those setting P/T based on time stamp situations, Correct?

Correct.

[Arsenal]

If I have already have Humility in play, then I play Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek, and then start activating my Foundry by sacrificing my Sword, do I just get 1/1 guys or 1/1 flying guys?

[Taurelin]

They won't have Flying.


613.1. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
...
613.1f. Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.

[Bayentethene]

Just to make sure, this makes all Equipment with Living Weapon better, right? They produce either 0/1 or 0/1 Germ tokens to carry them, so Humility changes the Germ tokens to 1/1's, while the equipment still grants the abilities, correct? I'm just testing my knowledge, as I'm about to start playing a G/W casual Enchantress deck with Humility in it. As far as I can tell:

7a: Germ is set at 0/0 or 0/1
7b: Humility sets Germ P/T to 1/1
7c: P/T adjustments given by the equipment

And I know that the abilities granted by the equipment work on a timestamp basis, as per:

613.6d If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification becomes attached to an object or player, the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at that time.

Just confirming that I'm not crazy. :)

[Taurelin]

Just to make sure, this makes all Equipment with Living Weapon better, right? They produce either 0/1 or 0/1 Germ tokens to carry them, so Humility changes the Germ tokens to 1/1's, while the equipment still grants the abilities, correct?

Basically yes.


And I know that the abilities granted by the equipment work on a timestamp basis, as per:

613.6d If an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification becomes attached to an object or player, the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification receives a new timestamp at that time.

It's a bit more complicated, but generally equipment works very well with Humility.

An example:

Interaction between Humility and Sword of Fire and Ice.



Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from red and from blue.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, Sword of Fire and Ice deals 2 damage to target creature or player and you draw a card.

+2/+2
-> Always works, because it happens in a later layer.


protection from red and from blue
-> This depends on the timestamps of Humility and equipping, because it belongs to the same layer.

Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, Sword of Fire and Ice deals 2 damage to target creature or player and you draw a card.
-> Always works, because this is not an ability of the creature, but an ability of the Sword itself.

[Bayentethene]

Thanks muchly for the clarification, Taurelin! I've never rocked Humility in a tournament setting before, and want to make sure I'm on top of my game before I get going. :)

[hyc8028]

Does humility shut down cards like Meddling Mage and Phyrexian Revoker?

[(nameless one)]

Does humility shut down cards like Meddling Mage and Phyrexian Revoker?

Since its an "As it enters the battlefield" ability, you can still name a card, though the following clauses will not take effect.

[hyc8028]

I thought so also, but just to make sure I am correct. Thanks!

[laxkiddan]

Quick question: I know that humility "works" with painter, but does the order in which they're played matter? When one is already on the field, and the other is played, both situations allow for the color-changing effects to happen- right?

[(nameless one)]

Quick question: I know that humility "works" with painter, but does the order in which they're played matter? When one is already on the field, and the other is played, both situations allow for the color-changing effects to happen- right?

It doesn't matter which one is played first since it has nothing to do with Timestamps but rather with Rules Layering.

[Offler]

Humility vs Lavaclaw reaches

Layering still gives me serious headache, so ...

Lavaclaw reaches were animated as humility was long in play. Land turned into creature.

What its P/T?

The next step opponent activated pumping ability of animated Lavaclaw reaches. I believe that this land didnt had this ability due Humiliy.

Furthermore I am not sure if it turns back into land at the end of turn, however I just believe this will happen because this ability was sucessfully activated and its last effect will just end upon end of turn.

[(nameless one)]

Under the active Humility, if Lavaclaw Reached was activated to turn into a creature, until the end of turn it would be a 2/2 black and red Elemental with "{X}: This creature gets +X/+0 until end of turn."

This time it had nothing to do with Layering, rather with Time Stamp. Humility has a replacement ability. It replaces all the P/T and abilities of the creatures. Once that's in check, if a creature under an active Humility changes it P/T or gains another ability, it would gain that ability.

In your case, Lavaclaw Reaches wasn't a creature when Humility's ability replacement was in check. It became a creature after that and gained its ability after that. Therefore it retains its P/T and abilities.

The same can be said with artifacts such as Phyrexian Totem or when creatures become targeted by spells such as Vines of Vastwood

[Koby]

It would not gain any new abilities. Humility still takes effect prior to the layer that grant those abilities. It would retain its new P/T settings until EOT however.

[Taurelin]

It would not gain any new abilities. Humility still takes effect prior to the layer that grant those abilities.

Incorrect.

Adding and removing abilities takes place in the same layer. Therefore timestamp decides what happens.


613.1f. Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.

[Offler]

Also which timestamp will took place. Time when Lavaclaw reaches entered battlefield (as land), or when it was animated.

Also to make it more complicated: during play the Humility was under Oblivion Ring. Thus it left play, later returned to game and I dont know how this affected timestamp of Humility.

Edit: Got it, figured it out at least :D However there was other problem. Game took more than 3 hours and no one really knows the timestamps...

[danpo]

So if I use Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, to get an emblem that gives my guys +1/+0 for the rest of the game, how does that interact with Humility?

My guess is it would come down to timestamps -- like if Humility was on the board before the emblem then the emblem would apply last, making my guys 2/1, whereas if Humility came down after the emblem they'd just be 1/1.

But I am pretty far from a main professor of layers, so I'd like to hear from someone who is.

[hjalte]

Taken directly from comprehensive rules.
P/T setting abilites are applied in layer 7b (Humility applies here)
Effects that add or subtract P/T are applied in layer 7c (Sorin's +1/+0 emblem applies here).

Timestamps are only taken into account if an effect apply in the same layer.



613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each
sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the
order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)

613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness
are applied. See rule 604.3.

613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.

613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness
to a specific number or value) are applied.

613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121,
“Counters.”

613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take
the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and
apply it to the creature’s power.

[markbris]

Taken directly from comprehensive rules.
P/T setting abilites are applied in layer 7b (Humility applies here)
Effects that add or subtract P/T are applied in layer 7c (Sorin's +1/+0 emblem applies here).

Timestamps are only taken into account if an effect apply in the same layer.

So am I correct in thinking that sorin's emblem will make my tokens 2/1's?

[cdr]

So am I correct in thinking that sorin's emblem will make my tokens 2/1's?

Yes, just like any other +1/+0 effect.

[Technics]

The only time timestamps come into effect is if you have two abilities that say "make creature(s) x/x" If it's +1/+1, -1/-1, +30/-10 no matter from what (counters, equipment, enchantments, enchant creatures, emblems, other creatures, etc.) they will apply AFTER Humility. Thus killing/saving/buffing your creatures beyond/below 1/1's.

[Nabbydian]

I'm sure if this has been asked before, but I'm really confused with rulings regarding Humility and I thought of asking about it by taking an example from my gameplay about how Humility works, here goes:


1) I have an Intangible Virture in play with 1x 1/1 Faerie Token(with flying).
2) I cast Humility.
3) What is the p/t of the Faerie Token now?

We had a major discussion in my group and couldn't came to a consensus. As usual we throw out explanations involving Time-Stamp and Layering but we could only agree on the Token losing flying.

[Tempus]

Your token is 2/2 without Flying.

P/T setting is on a lower level than increase/lower P/T by a specified amount

[Nabbydian]

Thanks for the answer, I suppose this is exactly the same as what someone asked ealier about Sorin's emblem. Sorry I had to ask again as nothing ever looks straightforward when it comes to Humility. :rolleyes:

P/T setting abilites are applied in layer 7b (Humility applies here)
Effects that add or subtract P/T are applied in layer 7c (Intangible Virture +1/+1 applies here).

[Nabbydian]

Thanks for the answer, I suppose this is exactly the same as what someone asked ealier about Sorin's emblem. Sorry I had to ask again as nothing ever looks straightforward when it comes to Humility. :rolleyes:

P/T setting abilites are applied in layer 7b (Humility applies here)
Effects that add or subtract P/T are applied in layer 7c (Intangible Virture +1/+1 applies here).

I went back to my LGS with the answer above, but is still unable to get an agreement from the players, most of them still believe the Faerie token with an Intangible Virtue in play is 1/1 (including a level 2 judge) - what else can I do to convince them? There is no point being correct when the majority rule against you - unfortunately that's the case when it comes to ruling in my area :frown:. Need your help again guys. Thank you.

[cdr]

I went back to my LGS with the answer above, but is still unable to get an agreement from the players, most of them still believe the Faerie token with an Intangible Virtue in play is 1/1 (including a level 2 judge) - what else can I do to convince them? There is no point being correct when the majority rule against you - unfortunately that's the case when it comes to ruling in my area :frown:. Need your help again guys. Thank you.

You showed them the rule? A level 2 judge ought to be able to explain why he disagrees with you regarding the rules.

http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R6133

I guess you could ask in www.dcifamily.org/askthejudge/ while they're present.

[Nabbydian]

You showed them the rule? A level 2 judge ought to be able to explain why he disagrees with you regarding the rules.

http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R6133

I guess you could ask in www.dcifamily.org/askthejudge/ while they're present.

Yeah I did. Thanks for the link, It was almost going to use it as a last resort. :smile:

Luckily we have finally reached a consensus on the correct ruling. One of the reason why we didn't managed to do so for so long was because one of the guy insisted he was correct based on below example (question 4 at the end)
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=judge/article/20091105a

Eventually we pointed out Opalescence as the key to why his argument didn't stick.

But thanks for the help guys - your input was invaluable. :smile:

[Steino]

Simple question:

If Humility and Blightsteel Colossus are both in play and the Colossus gets destroyed does it go to the graveyard or get shuffled back into the deck?

[cdr]

Simple question:

If Humility and Blightsteel Colossus are both in play and the Colossus gets destroyed does it go to the graveyard or get shuffled back into the deck?

Blightsteel Colossus has a replacement effect ("if ... instead"). Replacement effects need to exist before the event they're replacing; since Blightsteel does not have the ability on the battlefield, before it goes to the graveyard, it will not get shuffled.

[PollePotDK]

Blightsteel Colossus has a replacement effect ("if ... instead"). Replacement effects need to exist before the event they're replacing; since Blightsteel does not have the ability on the battlefield, before it goes to the graveyard, it will not get shuffled.

So Veteran Explorer and Academy Rector will also NOT trigger under Humility (just to be clear)?

[thefringthing]

So Veteran Explorer and Academy Rector will also NOT trigger under Humility (just to be clear)?These have triggered abilities, not replacement effects.

[Koby]

These have triggered abilities, not replacement effects.

Death triggers (When ~ dies) are also wiped by Humility, since they are originated from the battlefield.

[cdr]

As Koby said, "leaves the battlefield" or "dies" triggers are a little special since they happen from the source zone - zone-change triggers normally trigger from the destination zone (603.6d).

Interestingly, eldrazi like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn do not have either of the above two triggers - they have a "from anywhere" trigger. Since it's not a battlefield trigger it's not special and triggers from the destination zone, so Emrakul *will* trigger if it dies with Humility in play.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So, just to clarify on a few things:

1.) Inkmoth Nexus: If I have humility out, and then turn it into a 1/1 flying creature with infect, what will I have after humility is applied?

2.) Same question as above, only for Phyrexian Totem and Thunder Totem? What will they be after humility?

Thank you,

--ABC

[cdr]

So, just to clarify on a few things:

1.) Inkmoth Nexus: If I have humility out, and then turn it into a 1/1 flying creature with infect, what will I have after humility is applied?

2.) Same question as above, only for Phyrexian Totem and Thunder Totem? What will they be after humility?

Thank you,

--ABC

Layers and timestamps.

1) Both effects want to make it a 1/1, so it's a 1/1. The ability-adding effect has a later timestamp than the ability-removing effect (ability-adding and ability-removing are the same layer, 6) so it has flying and infect. It obviously won't have any of its activated abilities while it's a creature.

2) See above, with the addition of the totems having a relevant P/T toughness setting timestamp.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So does P. Totem maintain its p/t at 5/5 or does it drop to a 1/1? I've always been under the impression that if I activate it after the humility is on the board, it loses its mana ability and it's Negator effect, but maintains the 5/5 and trample. Same with Thunder Totem. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have an important tourney this weekend and I don't want to go unprepared for the rulings.

--ABC

EDIT: Just got it. If P. Totem is a creature at the time Humility is played, it loses all abilities and becomes a 1/1 (does it revert back to a non-creature artifact at eot?). If P. Totem is activated afterwards, it is a 5/5 trampler that loses negator effect and tap for mana effect. Correct?

[cdr]

EDIT: Just got it. If P. Totem is a creature at the time Humility is played, it loses all abilities and becomes a 1/1 (does it revert back to a non-creature artifact at eot?). If P. Totem is activated afterwards, it is a 5/5 trampler that loses negator effect and tap for mana effect. Correct?

Exactly - when effects are in the same layer it goes to timestamps.

The reverting is not an ability of the permanent, but rather a duration on the activated ability ("until end of turn"). Effects with "until end of turn" durations end at the cleanup step at the same time damage is removed (514.2).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sweet zombie Jesus...

-ABC


EDIT: cdr, thanks. I think I now fully understand (closet case scenarios aside) Humility. It is ridiculous.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I am at SCG Denver sitting in my Motel 6 room upset because of a ruling today from the acting head judge on the exact scenario above.

I had a Humility in play, and played a Phyrexian Totem. I explained to my opponent (real cool guy) how this works in tandem with Humility. Humility was in play first. Then the Totem. Judge gave a final ruling of Phyrexian Totem that doesn't tap for mana, is a 5/5, has trample, and retains the Negator effect. WTF. I need to know rulings or something or I'm boned in the tourney tomorrow. Any and all help is appreciated, especially accurate, swift help.

[Kich867]

I'm a little confused as to why it would retain trample and not the negator effect. It's not like it's an activated ability, it's a trait.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I just need to know if the judge is right or for the information to show the judge how it actually is.

[Jason]

Phyrexian Totem
T: Add B to your mana pool.
2B: Phyrexian Totem becomes a 5/5 black Horror artifact creature with trample until end of turn.
Whenever Phyrexian Totem is dealt damage, if it's a creature, sacrifice that many permanents.

When you activate the Phyrexian Totem under Humility, you set its power and toughness to a 5/5. This activated ability also gives it trample. Thus, under Humility, it is a 5/5 trample. However, unlike the power/toughness setting and the trample, the totem already has the ability to tap for mana and the "Negator effect" - it doesn't gain them from the 2B activation. Thus, it loses those abilities.

End result: 5/5 black Horror artifact creature with trample. Cannot tap for mana. No "Negator effect".

[dsck]

Humility + Batterskull, is this true or false:


You'll get a 5/5 Germ Token that
a) has Vigiliance and Lifelink if Batterskull was cast after Humility.
b) does not have Vigilance or Lifelink if Humility was cast after Batterskull.

[cdr]

Humility + Batterskull, is this true or false:

True. P/T adding is after P/T setting, ability adding/removing is the same layer.

More specifically, it's whether the Batterskull was equipped before or after Humility - when you equip the Batterskull to something, the effects get a new timestamp.

[clavio]

If Humility is in play and I have already played a land, can I play Rock Jockey?

[Koby]

If Humility is in play and I have already played a land, can I play Rock Jockey?

No, Rock Jockey only loses its abilities once it's on the battlefield. It still has a casting restriction.

[nevilshute]

Hey there, I have a question about our old friend Humility and Maga, Traitor to Mortals.

If I pay BBB5 to cast Maga, and there is a Humility on board is it correct to understand that Maga will enter the battlefield with 5x +1/+1 counters on it and therefor be 6/6 (due to it no longer being 0/0 but actually 1/1), but that my opponent(s) won't be dealt 5 dmg?

Or does it enter as a meek 1/1 no matter how much mana I spend casting it?

Thanks! :)

[cdr]

Hey there, I have a question about our old friend Humility and Maga, Traitor to Mortals.

If I pay BBB5 to cast Maga, and there is a Humility on board is it correct to understand that Maga will enter the battlefield with 5x +1/+1 counters on it and therefor be 6/6 (due to it no longer being 0/0 but actually 1/1), but that my opponent(s) won't be dealt 5 dmg?

Or does it enter as a meek 1/1 no matter how much mana I spend casting it?

Thanks! :)

As you can see, Maga has two abilities - an as-ETB and a when-ETB. As-ETB happens before it enters the battlefield, so Humility is not affecting it at that time. When-ETB happens after it enters the battlefield, so Humility is affecting it at that time. It ETBs with counters, but there is no trigger.

[ScatmanX]

Finally, someone mentioned something about humility earlier: it affects all creatures in ALL zones, including your hand, library, graveyard and exile. Emrakul never cycles your library from your yard; GPI can't be cycled to burn a dude. Misthollow Griffin doesn't work with food chain more than once.
I belive this is not true, but would like a confirmation.
Thanks.

[Finn]

I belive this is not true, but would like a confirmation.
Thanks.
I am here for the same exact reason. I saw this too. I suspect creatures are defined as being on the battlefield, and that cycling Gempalm Incinerator (as an example) is the effect of a creature card.

[Koby]

Humility
Enchantment, 2WW
All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.

Creatures are only creatures on the battlefield. In all other zones, they are creature cards. Note the distinction.

[Arsenal]

I have a Humility out in play. I then resolve Gideon Jura. Next turn, when I activate his +0 ability, what happens?

[Koby]

I have a Humility out in play. I then resolve Gideon Jura. Next turn, when I activate his +0 ability, what happens?

6/6, prevent all damage dealt to him. No other abilities.

Gideon Jura's +0 modifies the soon to be animated Gideon's P/T and abilities at a later time stamp than Humility; and so they supercede.

[imnotbrown]

So something i may not understand very well that was mentioned early in this thread (I may be looking at this wrong)(Also here are two scenarios):
SCENARIO 1:
I have a 1/3 creature that can switch it's power and toughness
I switch it's power and toughness. It's now a 3/1.
My opponents gives it -0/-1.
It dies.

OR SCENARIO 2:
Repeat first three steps.
It does not die because time stamps, and is now a 2/1.

Which is correct?

[Taurelin]

613.3a. Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied.
613.3b. Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
613.3c. Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
613.3d. Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied.
613.3e. Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature's power and toughness are applied.

Starting with a 1/3 creature, the effects are applied in this order:

Layer 7a - nothing
Layer 7b - nothing
Layer 7c - -0/-1 is applied -> it's a 1/2 creature
Layer 7d - nothing
Layer 7e - P/T switch is applied -> it's a 2/1 creature.

So (2) is correct.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Nope. It means when something else makes the permanent indestructible under Humility, say Elspeth's ultimate, it will stay indestructible.

With the M13 rules changes "indestructible" is now an ability. Thus, Humility will remove it. In the quoted example, the effect is now different.

An excerpt of Elspeth, Knight-Errant's Oracle text:

-8: You get an emblem with "Artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands you control have indestructible."

Humility would now remove this ability, correct?

[exallium]

Yes, now that the ability is a keyword ability, Humility will remove it.

[Anen]

I was watching the Invitational earlier today. At some point the Shardless Bant player plays a Shardless Agent with an Humility on the battlefield (here at 7h32 (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/538117034)). The problem is that he doesn't resolve the Cascade trigger. Since the Cascade happens when Agent is on the stack he should have, shouldn't he?

[Exuberance]

I was watching the Invitational earlier today. At some point the Shardless Bant player plays a Shardless Agent with an Humility on the battlefield (here at 7h32 (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/538117034)). The problem is that he doesn't resolve the Cascade trigger. Since the Cascade happens when Agent is on the stack he should have, shouldn't he?

Correct. Abilities that trigger on casting creatures still trigger.

[Scott]

And how many times did both Patrick Sullivan and Matthias Hunt say that the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo doesn't work with Humility out, and base their entire read of the game on that incorrect thought?

[Exuberance]

And how many times did both Patrick Sullivan and Matthias Hunt say that the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo doesn't work with Humility out, and base their entire read of the game on that incorrect thought?

I didn't see that game, but I'm guessing they did it all of the times.

[Kathal]

And how many times did both Patrick Sullivan and Matthias Hunt say that the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo doesn't work with Humility out, and base their entire read of the game on that incorrect thought?

Heyho,

just found this thread and I saw that comment. I understand the basic concept behind Humility but I don't understand this case. I understand, that when Painter resolves you name a colour (since this happens, before the Painter enters the battlefield), but then what?

The only thing I can think off is, that since the second ability of the Painter applies in the 5th layer ('Colour Changing Effects') happens, before the remove of all abilities (Layer 6). Is this correct?

Greetings,
Kathal

[Scott]

Heyho,

just found this thread and I saw that comment. I understand the basic concept behind Humility but I don't understand this case. I understand, that when Painter resolves you name a colour (since this happens, before the Painter enters the battlefield), but then what?

The only thing I can think off is, that since the second ability of the Painter applies in the 5th layer ('Colour Changing Effects') happens, before the remove of all abilities (Layer 6). Is this correct?

Greetings,
Kathal

This article (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/lesson-humility/) does a good job explaining the intricacies of the Humility/Painter's Servant interaction, and other Humility interactions.

[Watersaw]

Probably a silly question, but how does Humility interact with Constellation? If Humility and Eidolon of Blossoms enter the battlefield simultaneously, I don't think I draw any cards. But what if Eidolon is already in play when Humility is being cast?

[iamajellydonut]

There is no combination of Humility and Eidolon of Blossoms that will result in you drawing a card.

[Watersaw]

There is no combination of Humility and Eidolon of Blossoms that will result in you drawing a card.

Aight, thanks. I didn't think so, but I felt like I needed confirmation.

[cdr]

Aight, thanks. I didn't think so, but I felt like I needed confirmation.

ETB triggers, like most triggers, check whether they triggered after the event. Since Humility is in play at that point, its static ability is already in effect.

Leaves-the-battlefield triggers and a few other specific triggers check before the event, so Humility also stops those.

[pocari79]

I hope I'm asking this in the right place as this thread looks fairly dead.

If my opponent has a Humility in play and and I have a Smuggler's Copter with a creature in play. I crew the Copter so is my Copter now a 3/3 flyer with a loot ability or just a lowly 1/1?

[iostream]

I hope I'm asking this in the right place as this thread looks fairly dead.

If my opponent has a Humility in play and and I have a Smuggler's Copter with a creature in play. I crew the Copter so is my Copter now a 3/3 flyer with a loot ability or just a lowly 1/1?It is a 1/1 with no abilities. Crew doesn't set power/toughness, so it does not work like Mishra's Factory.

[Sarahaw]

Yes, it works because of layers

[Technics]

This article (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/lesson-humility/) does a good job explaining the intricacies of the Humility/Painter's Servant interaction, and other Humility interactions.

Actually with the news rules update to Blood Moon, Humility, etc. Unless the painters servant is already in play pre humility you no longer get to choose a color, so painter no longer works. (If painter was already in play pre humility then yes it still works because layers).